Alex Sinickas Australian engineer + designer S2 Ep76 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alex Sinickas, an engineer and designer from Bright, Victoria, and a mum of 1. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, re-creating the achievements of her childhood heroes Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond. She spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up, This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to Uni Alex studied engineering and also economics, She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects, she wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve their visions. 4 years ago Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite a shocking and painful experience, needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refused the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3D printouts of silicone cushions, which lead to Alex collaborating with a roboticist and a prototype coach, and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produced prototypes and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out, until they found the perfect fit. Thus began MilkDrop Pumps , a soft silicone pad that stretches over most brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in April 2021 and in the US in late 2022. Alex - MilkDrop Pumps Podcast - instagram / website What is STEM? ***This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, post natal depression and an IUGR pregnancy.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. This Week on the podcast. My guest is Alex cynic s. Alex is an engineer and a designer from bright in Victoria, and she's a mom of one. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, recreating the achievements of her childhood heroes, including Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond, she spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up. This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to uni, Alex studied engineering and also economics. She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects. She wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve four years ago, Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite shocking and painful experience needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refuse the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable, not just for herself. But for other mothers. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3d printouts of silicone cushions, which led Alex to collaborate with roboticists and a prototype coach and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produce prototypes, and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out until they found the perfect feet. Thus began milkdrop pumps, a soft silicone pad that stretches over many brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in 2021, and in the US in late 2022. This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, postnatal depression, and an IUGR pregnancy. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. And while you're there, please take a minute to subscribe to my new weekly email, which I'm sending out at the beginning of each week. I'm a little bit conscious that we don't actually own all the content that we post on social media. And in light of Mr. Elon Musk's recent takeover of Twitter and the changes he's made. I'm even more aware than ever that things could disappear in the blink of an eye. So I'd love to be able to keep in touch with you before that disappears. So jump on and subscribe to my weekly newsletter. The music you'll hear today, as usual is from my ambient music trio called LM Joe. We are based in Australia and it's myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome, Alex. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you're based in your in Australia. Whereabouts are you in Australia? Yeah, I live in Brighton, which is about three and a half hours northwest of Melbourne. Yeah, I know. Right? Yeah. A lot of people when you say that, they say, Oh, I um, I went on family holidays there when I was a kid or something like that. Yeah, that's probably doesn't change that much. It's probably a little bit more popular now. And it's, you know, in winter, it's all about skiing. And in summer, it's all about mountain biking and road riding. And I remember the because I'm one of those people that not from family holidays. And the autumns are beautiful, which is stunning. Yeah, well, I'm I'm married to a Canadian and he reckons that it's the closest he can get to to Canada in Australia. So I feel like that's a nice, it's a nice compromise. We get to live here but you're Similar to Canada. Yeah, it's beautiful. It really is. And yeah, about three hours from Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. I have some great memories of that part of the world. Yes. Totally Beautiful. Very lucky. Oh, that's awesome. So you're an engineer and a designer. Can you share with us how you got into that field? I think I was just following my brother, actually, I might have a brother who's two years older than me. And through school. And growing up, he, he sort of involved me in all of his activities, really. So it was kind of just trotting around following him. And so our sort of childhood heroes were, you know, Indiana Jones and MacGyver, James Bond for that kind of stuff. So we spent a lot of time outside, digging up things and blowing things up, which is probably okay, these days. And so I just sort of learned about how to build things and curiosity about how things work from him, and probably my parents. And then I was always fairly good at maths. And so when it came time to go to, I knew I always wanted to go to uni, but not I didn't really know what I wanted to study, I thought, oh, maybe you know, medicine that's like what you do if that's what you're good at maths, which is a really strange concept, but that's kind of where it was at the time. But it just didn't really kind of make sense. And so I, yeah, I ended up doing engineering. And I did dumb economics as well, as my dad had said, like, oh, you know, I never really understood how money works and how businesses work. And I wish I'd known that. And maybe you might like that, too. So I was pretty, like, aimless. Although I was academically fairly, you know, good. But I really had no like idea about what I wanted to do. So that's how I ended up in engineering. And then, in terms of design, I got into that a bit later, one of the things you learned you do when you're engineering is you work in really big teams full of lots of different people. And I was working in structural engineering. And you end up working with architects quite a lot. And I loved what they did. Yeah, right. Grandfather was an architect. And I'd always loved design. And I'm probably not very good at it. But I know what looks good. I like being able to help people achieve that. And so I was always drawn to architecture and just, like, beautiful design, good design. Yeah. Right. So what sort of things had you been doing? Like you said, structural? Engineering, is that, like building bridges? And yeah, anything above the ground. So there's like a thing, you know, with engineering, there's lots of different kinds. My choice was, you know, electrical, chemical, environmental, and civil and so like, electrical seem too hard, I didn't really understand electricity, can't see it, you know, chemical like, I wasn't really that into chemistry, again, too hard to understand, can't see it civil, well, that's everything you can see. It's everything on the ground. So roads, rail, you know, it's water management, and then structural, which is things you can see above the ground. So buildings, bridges, anything like that. And so that kind of made the most sense to me, because I could see it, and I could understand how I, you know, I could make that. And so that's kind of where I ended up. And, yeah, luckily, I ended up working with this brilliant consulting firm called Eric, which is a, which was started by a guy who was an architect, also a philosopher, and an engineer. And he had this idea that if you worked closer with, you know, the designers at the very start, and with the people who were building it, you could create these really beautiful pieces of art. And so he started I think, in the 1960s. In the UK, he was Danish, and created this firm of engineers who were really oriented towards the dream of the architect, like, what did they want to create? And how could we bring the real world to that in a way that didn't like shut down their ideas, but was like, okay, yeah, you want to put, you know, some crazy structure up here that can't be built? Well, maybe it can be built, if we, you know, changed it like this. So use the physics in that way. And so, so he was, you know, he created this firm out of that and so I was lucky enough to fall into working for them, and that's where I learned about, you know, not necessarily being the artist yourself, but, you know, making art come alive. And I think architecture is one of those disciplines where, like, they can create some crazy stuff like, in the real world that exists, you know, and it's amazing to see what what, you know, what people can come up with. And I especially liked the kind of teamwork aspect of it, you know, you kind of needed a whole lot of things to come together to create these, you know, beautiful pieces. So, I didn't work very long in that, you know, as a structural engineer only a couple of years, but I worked in that firm for quite a while. Yeah, recently doing more research and development with them. Yeah. So up until that point, before this guy came up with this idea was this, was that a really sort of radical idea that people would work together in that way? Was it more like sheep would have an idea, and architects would just do their thing? And people wouldn't say, yeah. I mean, I don't know, there's probably historians, or people who were alive and working in that time, that would know better, it was always sort of shared with us, as part of the Kool Aid, you know, like about how it was not, you know, together. But I guess if you go back to like, you know, the idea of the Renaissance man, like art and science were very, very close, right. And I think as, possibly as you know, as society grows, and as disciplines grow you, you know, to be able to be an expert in your area, you have to get more and more narrow in your focus. And so it's very hard to be on top of everything anymore. Because it'll mean that you actually can't do that project, like you can't make it happen. So you get so individual people have to get more and more specialized. And so I wonder if like, you know, art fell off the way there. I think also, like, the economics of things changed. So the, the people with the power in the built environment now, which is what they call, you know, cities and things that get built. It's not necessarily the architect, I think it used to be that, you know, you might commission an architect to do a design, and then they might bring in like a bad engineer and some contractors to build it. And but the architect was like in control of the project, I'm not sure it's totally like that anymore. It's sort of shifted a little bit to the person who owns the property being the, you know, the person who's really making the big decisions. And so I'm not sure that we get quite as daring architecture anymore. Like, you know, would we have the Sydney Opera House? If it was 2022? Probably not. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like that, that's probably changed. But yeah, I'm not sure what it was like, before, but in my view, it's always good to have more people earlier on working together, because often, often, you can actually make the thing happen that everybody wants, if you're there at the start. It's just Messier. It takes longer. And it's got a higher chance of failure. So it's easier to like go with what you know. Yeah, that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, that's interesting. And you've raised a point there that I'll bring you back to later won't dive into that just yet. But I've written that down for later. But I want to talk about what you're doing right now. So you have used your extensive experience in your engineering and your designing background to create a business called milkdrop. Can you tell us about that, please? Sure. So, yeah, so I was working for this company. And I went on maternity leave for my daughter, who's now three, nearly four. And I found myself on the end of a breast pump to feed her, which I found to be quite a shocking experience, I think, you know, we had trouble feeding directly at the breast. And so I was pumping on a breast pump, like six to eight times a day, just trying to express milk for her. And I ended up with really damaged nipples. And I found it really painful. And it just like, after a while, you know, I dealt with it for a bit, but after a while, it started to really annoy me that this product had been made that it wasn't clear how to use it, and it was hurting me, but I still kind of had to. And I started to think about how I could make that different. And so I had seen these experiments that people had Um, it's soft robotics are like, robotic. Yeah, like robotic creations that were made of soft silicone. So it's like hands that could pick things up. And it's like, why are breast pumps made out of robotic hands? I mean, the reason is that it's really creepy. And people just wouldn't accept that idea is super creepy. You know, like, everyone's always like, why don't you just make it well, like a baby? And like, would you put a fake baby on your breast to express milk? Like, it needs to be a little removed? Since but, so what I did was, I ordered a kit of silicone and a robotics kit. And I started trying to build something that would feel better than a breast pump, but still work. I mean, within about one hour, I ran into my own limitations of like, how to use these things, because I have no idea about robotics. So I called a friend Daniel, who is a roboticist. And he introduced me to a friend of his who worked at Swinburne University as a prototyping coach. So basically, students in any of the design subjects who have their final projects and want to create, you know, a piece of furniture or a piece of metal or whatever, he's there in the lab, helping them make it so he knows how to make stuff. And both of these guys are lovely. And so we sort of started working together on creating prototypes of breast pumps, that would feel better. I'm also married to a GP. So we had all of this like, insight into how the breast actually works, from sort of a medical perspective. And so the four of us sort of sat around and just started pumping out prototypes. And then every time I had to press pump, I would use Yep, try it out. And then we go back, 3d printed another model, pour some silicone, try it again. And so we did that, like 20 times. That was like the creative bid. And then after that, it's all just been full on, you know, manufacturing, fundraising, websites, kind of thing. But yeah, so that's where I got to. So yeah, the products called what we ended up doing was actually just creating a soft silicone pad that stretches over most breast pumps, we didn't even redesign the breast pump. Because we figured this would, you know, help more people, they've already got a breast pump. And then you just, you know, get this cushion and attach it over the top. So that's what we've been doing. And we launched that in Australia last year, and just launched in the US last month. So that's pretty exciting, helping a lot of women with pain and discomfort. And then we're still also working on other products in the background as well, because it's all good on Yeah, that is such an awesome story. Because it's like you've literally solved a problem, not just for yourself, but for everyone. Like that is so awesome that you can do that. You've got the skin. Yeah, you can. Yeah. I love. Well, I mean, it's not it's not always so straightforward. Like, the first product that we did. You know, it worked for about 75% of people, which firm in the medical world is insane, right. But about a quarter of people were finding they were collecting less milk because the cushion was kind of dulling the sensation of the pump. And so then we were like, Okay, what can we do about that? So we created a cushion that was thinner, or had less material on it, you know, sent that out to the people it wasn't working for dudes were like, yes, great, you know, and then we're like, doesn't fit everybody's nipple size, because everybody's different. So then we added more sizes. So you're like, just constantly trying to find something that works for everyone. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, yeah, you just like created this thing. And then it works for everyone is amazing. It's never quite like back lossy. Yeah, there's a lot to improve. And we, you know, we think we're sitting now at like about 90%. So we can help nine out of 10 women, and one out of 10 Unfortunately, we you know, we're still working on it. But you know, we can't help but what what we do instead is have free trial for 30 days. So you try it if it doesn't work, send it back, we'll refund you, you know, so we're not trying to add stress, but his you know, that's kind of our way of, you know, making sure that we're actually helping women rather than rather than sort of making it worse. So yes, yeah. Interesting process Yeah. When did you sort of first start this process? What year was Yeah, yeah, it took about six months to do the design, and then about 18 months to do the manufacturer. And really the holdup was not our design skill or manufacturing capability, it was money to be honest and time. So, you know, you've got jobs. Everybody's got jobs. And I feel like it's like, it was it. Who was it that said, like, you need A Room of One's Own? Is it Virginia Woolf, if I got the wrong English author, anyway, someone was like, you know, women will never be able to write until they have an income and space. And, you know, Shakespeare's sister wouldn't have become Shakespeare just by virtue of being female, right? Because women, you know, you, you don't have the luxury of being able to fail and have constant monies anyway, we all have jobs. And we had to sort of do it in our own time. So if we were employed by milkdrop, now, with funding, we probably would have only taken us sort of four weeks to do a design, and then it might have been like, nine months for manufacture. Yeah. So so we sort of had this process of like, you know, in our spare time making up these prototypes, testing them, redesigning them, you know, maybe we did like once, once a week, or once, once every two weeks or something, you know, then we'd go and try and patent that, and then take that around, apply for grants to get funding, and take that around to investors, or accelerators try and prove that there's a market without having a product to sell, you know, convincing people that this was worth investing in. And then, you know, finally, we managed to, you know, accumulate enough funding and investment to then manufacture it. So it wasn't that it took that long it was that it took that long to get them the money to pay for it. You know, the tooling just for these just for reference, it's like 40,000 bucks to make it all. Yeah, right. Like, if you're an existing company, that's fine. But if you're starting from scratch, that's a lot of money. You know, that's not, you know, you know, doesn't come pass by easily. And so yeah, so that's kind of what it took. So it was sort of two years from the idea to being in market. And then you know, it's really been a year and a half for us to even get enough traction to, for people to know about us, like the marketing is almost harder than the design. Yeah, it was like that was the I don't say that was the easy because, yeah, well, it's like, and then all this other stuff that has to happen afterwards. Yeah. Back when? And if this is appropriate question to ask. So you can you can say no, if you want, but because you've got money from other people, or then are you accountable back to them to show what you've made? And everything? And how does that feel really, like? nerve wracking? Sort of? Like, I don't know if that's the word. But yeah, I feel pressure from that. Yeah. You can make it feel like it's full of pressure. You know, like, It's always, it's always a challenge to report back. But, you know, we, we have really good investors, we, you know, we have mostly private investors, and then also the Victorian Government. And I think it's a challenge. Yeah, like, we read, like a monthly report back, right. And every time like, something doesn't quite go, right, you always find yourself wanting to put a spin on it and catching yourself being like, no, just tell it how it is. Because next month, you know, you're not going to be able to say this, I think actually, I've, I've been able to take a lot of the lessons from working in big teams on big engineering projects from that, that one of the good things about, you know, working in construction, or on big projects is that if it's a good culture, there's no blame, you just say what the situation is, you know, nobody's made a mistake on purpose, or like, you know, your prototype hasn't failed on purpose, you're not being lazy, you're not misusing money, you're trying your best to get something over the line, it's really hard to do if it was easy to be done. So you just have to kind of make sure you don't fall into that trap of like treating your investors. Like it's the media, you know, that it has to be a spin on a story or whatever. So yeah, I'm pretty blunt with where things are at. We share as much information as we can, as we have. And the usually the way it works is the investors are far less worried about the things I'm worried about than I am, you know, usually the, you know, usually they're saying things like, no, no, you got this just keep going, like, you know, tell us about your thinking about this. And then they want to talk you through it. It's not like a reprimand relationship or a bad boss. It's like a group of people who want you to succeed. You got to tell them what's going on if you if you want their help. It's kind of Yeah, it's almost that nurturing sort of environment where if you've got a problem and no, because I guess they've had many years experience in business or it'll the diary is they'd be like, well, actually, this isn't a big deal like you know, Oh, it is easy. Yeah. Have you looked at this? Like, how come you haven't looked at this? Like, oh, I didn't even know that was the thing, you know? So I think like, it's just, it depends how you frame it. And it could I think, if I was a little younger, and you know, hadn't learned all of those other lessons, it would be an easy trap to fall into, but I think, yeah, with a little bit of experience, like, oh, no, this is an asset. This is awesome. Just gonna, you know, be grateful that these people want to be involved in this project. And, you know, ask them for as much help as I can get and communicate as often as I can. So I think, yeah, we've we've been really lucky. I'm sure it's not like that with everyone. And I think also by the fact that this product is about women's health, which is, you know, notoriously under served and chronic pain for women is overlooked in or you attract, you attract a certain kind of investor, right? You know, they're already, they're already thinking differently. And they already probably really care about this. So it's a bit of a filter, as well, like, it can be frustrating, because like, oh, how come I'm not getting more investment? How can I seem like the same person as me, also called Alex, but a dude, you know, raising twice the amount and half the time kind of thing. And you can get annoyed at that. But then when you look at who you've got the quality's so good, that you think well, you know, yeah, so yeah, no complaints. Yeah. Good question. I know I sorry. That's okay. I didn't I didn't pre warn you with that. Well, I just thought of it as we're talking about, I thought, I wonder what's that? Like? Yeah, sounds like can be stressful. There's always there's always things that are going well, and things that aren't going well. And yeah, you've just got to like bite the bullet and talk about things not going well. Because if you were in that position, you'd want to know and help us. You'd want to be able to help to like having kids, right, because they don't tell you what's going on. How can you help them? Yeah, that's a whole new conversation. Oh, man. So speaking of children, you mentioned that you started this out with you when you had your daughter. So how old is your daughter now? She would be she's studying for next month or Yeah, right. Yep. And that's your only child. You've got one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had. We have tried since but I just keep having miscarriages. Which sucks. I'm so sorry. Oh, that's okay. It happens to lots of people. So, yeah, it's just it's been a fairly big gap. Maybe we'll be able to have another one. Maybe not a I've got seven years between mine Never say never. Yeah, exactly. So just sort of taking it easy with that, I think, you know, the last few years of the pandemic and also trying to grow business and life's busy my husband just is just about to sit his final exam for for, you know, final final, the last one after, you know, 15 years of study. So that's all been pretty full on like, we're just yeah, just kind of trying to take it easy. What's your sort of your days look, like you said before about how you all had jobs? And that what is your main thing now? Yeah, so about a year ago, I moved to almost be more than that. Actually. I moved into full time on milkdrop. And, but most people working with us are part time. We have a fully remote team and I call hyper or extreme flexibility with hours. So we have some people, you know, brilliant people doing marketing and content for us. And, you know, two of the three of them are mothers. And, you know, my view is like you work whatever works for you. So if you need time off, you take out if you don't, whatever, if you want to work at midnight, that's fine. If you want to work at 7am that's also fun. No rules, and no requirements, as long as you're getting the work done. And as we all know my There's a total machines when it comes to getting work time because we don't have time for bullshit. Yeah, so like, you know, for the parents, that's what we do, and then we try to make sure that, um, for people who aren't parents that, you know, they are able to use that flexibility how they want as well. So it's not just sort of something that's provided to one group of people. Because they made a choice. It's everyone gets that. And it seems to be working quite well so far. But it's super early days. Yeah. So my days, I like to have a bit of structure, actually. So I'm Monday to Thursday, you know, nine to five. My daughter has daycare here, Monday to Thursday. And then on Fridays, I'll do I'll sort of do a few hours for sort of Friday over the weekend, like customer service stuff and other things that need to happen on the weekends. So I kind of break that up. But I try not to do anything too taxing. And yeah, the days like, I work best in the morning. So I do like the hard work in the morning. And then I moved to the kind of Bitsy tasks that you have as a business in the afternoon. We have our design meetings once a week, always. And that's with those same two boys that I was working with at the start. He Yeah, we basically try to either prototype, a design that we're working on during that week. So we've got something to report back. So we sort of operate on like a weekly cycle. But both of those guys are working in other jobs as well. But yeah, we that that seems to be working quite nicely and moving fairly quickly. Yeah, and then you know, it's a total mess whenever grad is sick, or were sick, or you No, okay, closers for some reason, or they issue random public holidays, you know, which is great for people with jobs, but not if you and your business. So I sort of feel like on average, we're getting about four days a week worth of work. So I've just tried to get really, really efficient. And some days that works better than others. Most of the time, I feel like a failure. And then every time, every now and again, something good happens. And like oh, maybe I'm not such a terrible business person after all. Yeah. But I did learn one of the great things I did learn from one of our investors and mentors is to print out good reviews that you get, or comments that people send you. And when you're having a crappy day, just kind of read through those. And yeah, that does make you feel better. Because it's kind of like, you know, the whole reason I started with because I was annoyed that women weren't being you know, that the, you know, this dis product shouldn't be hurting women, and we could do a better job. And so, you know, when you hear that back that you've changed, your product has meant that someone isn't having pain anymore, and they're able to feed their baby breast milk, which is what they really wanted to do. And you know, they were feeling awful, because they felt like they might have to give up and now they don't you know, that kind of stuff like, Oh, that's really cool. You know, it's nice to have that effect. Yeah. And never underestimate that. Because that I went through an experience with my breastfeeding journey, where at one point, I was producing so much milk that my baby couldn't latch, and then they suggested that I use a shield, which was great, because he could latch but then it decreased my amount of production because the baby wasn't touching my breast. So it was an I went through a lot of issues. And when things finally were good, you know, it changes your whole world. Like it literally changed everything, you know, so I can imagine. I mean, yeah, I was lucky. I never struggled with a lot of pain. But I had other issues. So yeah, it's, it's anything about like the context that you're operating in, right? Like you've got a woman here who got pregnant, stay pregnant, managed to have a baby. And then if things aren't going super well with feeding or any other part of their babies, like it is full on, especially in that first week or two after birth. Yeah. So no matter how you had the birth, no matter how the baby is going, something is going wrong, like nobody cruises through this period. And so this is the situation that you're in. And this is like, this is the point where we're kind of trying to help and so I think like, that always makes it pretty real. Sometimes, like you you kind of wish you were involved in something more fun. Like you know, when you go to do your marketing campaigns, you're like, Oh, I'm so sick of it being such a downer all the time and Be like, No, you just feel like that because you're four years past it. But back in that moment, yeah. Any help is good to help and numb. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because yeah, like when you. I mean, I had a lot of experiences with postnatal depression and I'm sure you know, all these little things that were happening but all all combining to make this a massive oh yes that's it isn't it I remember with my my second baby because he was born, he wasn't early, he had IUGR. So in my when he was being made, my placenta sort of stopped working about 26 weeks, but no one brought that up. So he was completely formed all these organs and everything like his lungs were mature everything but he had no meat on his bones. Basically, he was in a bind. So he was four pound 14, and he come out. And it was like, you can see every breath he took, you could see his diaphragm second, like it was, it was like I couldn't I had these ideas that I you know, I exclusively breastfed my first baby. And I said, Yep, I'm going to do this with my second. But right from the very beginning, he had to be on formula because he just had to be fed straightaway through this, like the tube, the gavel into his stomach. So they had me pumping. That's all I was doing was pumping. And luckily, they had an electric pump at the hospital. The only other pump would ever use was a manual one. And that was Yeah. Oh my gosh. Just not fun at all. Yeah, and it was like, they just like just just do it. And I was like, But how, like, she was just like, we'll the TV and and show you this video. That must be like 50 years old. And I don't know. And every time I'm not, I'm not begging, you know, midwives at all. But just about every person had their own idea of how to attach and how to latch and how to hold and how to listen. Oh, man like to listen to? Exactly, yeah. Yeah. You know, I was in the public system. So every time you rang that bell, you didn't know which nurse, you're going to say, you know, it's the same in practice sounds like, you know, it was the same credit. Yeah, it was just like, my head, I want to go home. I just want to go home and just do it one way, just pick away and do it. But then it has the questioning, like well, is one way that I'm choosing the right way? And like, this is the biggest consequence decision in my life, because I've got this baby I'm responsible for now. Like, if I do it the wrong way. Will they get enough food? Like, it's just, it's just, yeah, I Your story is not unfamiliar. Like? Yeah, we've spoken with a lot of women now. And that that whole, like, conflicting information? Thing is, yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah. And not always ending up with the best outcome for the for the mom or the baby. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. They used to say to us, when we'd ask, what what do we do? What should we do with the baby? And they'd go every baby's different. And yeah, would drive us crazy. Good. We know that's true now, but at the time, when you've got no idea what you're doing, it's your first baby. And you just want someone to tell you what to do. Yeah, yeah. In the end, my husband said, If I hear every, every baby's different one more time, I'm bloody going like he was just like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, find sites beautiful thing, but gee whiz? Well, you know, like, one of the reasons why we don't know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. So there's, there's, you know, good evidence base about skin to skin and good evidence base about a whole lot of things, but not, not everything. And so quite a bit of it is kind of left up to people's individual experience with what they've seen. Or just kind of intuition about stuff, and that's fine. But if if we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, you know, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs, and you know, you wouldn't have be left feeling like that. So, you know, part of this is, is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed and it's best for baby blah, blah, blah, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? You know, where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we didn't have funding for them, like, you know, so I think a lot of this is kind of see like problems around the places like, are these problems that can feasibly be solved, you know, in science are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to put our cash in that area. It's a little cynical, but I think that's true. No, I agree with that. I disagree with that. Also something cynical, if it was a man's problem, like to put more money, we wouldn't even have to have to have babies, it will be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's another one. So what I want to ask, and I'm not asking you to give away your secrets or anything, but with the other you said you're working on some other things? Are they things that are born from that similar? Like experiencing something or seeing something that you've you've got this passion? Yeah. Yeah, it's all about breast pumps. At the moment. I'm like, we would love to do more products. Like one big area that I've been really interested in is incontinence. It's another one of these, like, everybody has it. You know, so, but, you know, what we're really good at what we've learned how to do is silicone products and, and things that have something to do with the human body. So yeah, so we're still working on breast pumps. And we're working on creating a, you know, these are just cushions at the moment, but we're working on a full breast pump. So that's what we're doing. But in terms of how that works, I'll probably keep that under wraps. It'll be a while before that. So yeah, that's what we've been working on. Which has been fun. Card. Yes. Fun slash card. Yeah. When you say about incontinence, it's really funny, all of a sudden, it's almost like it's cool to have the incontinent Sandy's and it's like, where were they 15? A woman who needed them. Right? Yeah. Another reason why we need more women in STEM, right, you know, that you have a habit of solving problems that you see if you don't see the problem, you know, and solve it. So I think, you know, the, this kind of world of these? Yeah, like, Where was that when I was, when I was pregnant or suffering from this, I think we'll see less and less of that as we go. Or, like, we'll start to see these problems solve more and more, as, you know, you start to see these professions that are in charge of designing things, start to have more women in them, or, you know, people who identify as women who are having those problems. So I think it's only gonna get better. But yeah, there's a lot once you start scratching the surface, you're like, oh, and that Oh, and that oh, you know, yeah. So on that, do you think that it's like, because I know, with the schools, they're always saying, you know, girls getting into STEM and all that sort of stuff? And at the other end of it having women who are the ones with the money, I guess, who are the investors? Is it sort of a bit of both? It's like, encouraging the girls to break through these glass ceilings, I suppose. Or the boys club or whatever. Yeah. But then at the other end, having having the women who sit who might say, Yes, I'm passionate about this, because it's a women's issue, and I want to support it. Yeah. It's like, my grandpa always used to say, like, follow the money. He was Lithuanian, adult, very thick accent and, you know, follow the money, where's the money coming from? And it kind of does make sense, like, you know, why aren't these problems solved? Because, like I said, before, you know, it could have taken us four, six weeks to make this thing and took us two years, because we had to convince people to give us the money now we were able to convince them. And that was awesome. Thank you. But there are plenty of people who aren't able to convince other people to fund to fund these sorts of things. And I think, yeah, well, you know, when you look at the proportion of startups that are led by women that are funded, it's a lot lower, like there's you can Google all of this, like it's pretty, it's pretty dire. And there's a lot of arguments why, like people say, Oh, well, there's not as many women asking and not as many women in technology. And so then you say, Yeah, but why, you know, I don't think there's anything innate about or girls and boys when they young about their problem solving abilities or their ability to design or do art or anything like that. I think it comes a bit later. Yeah. And so yeah, I think it's sort of, you know, what are we teaching them? What are we making look exciting and cool? Yeah. What? You know, you have a lot more often, people say they have more women enrolling in engineering disciplines, such as Humanitarian Engineering, and Environmental Engineering. And then we start putting all of these like stereotypes on women, like, they just want to work for their community, they want to work for environment, like, they don't want to do dirty stuff, you know, so that, that the, you know, they're a little like, flashes everywhere. I guess my point is that it's very complex. But it is, you know, multi multifactorial, which is like a fancy way of saying, we don't really know, and there's lots of things that happen. But you know, part of it is fun. Part of it is education. Part of it is society, part of it is, you know, when we're not putting enough effort into retain people, part of it is like the dropping out after having babies, because it's too hard to get back into work. Like, there's just so much stacked up. It's not really there to prevent this from happening. It's yeah, yeah, like, in a nice way, but we're living in that society, and the odds will be stacked against us, you know? Yeah. And I don't think anyone's doing it intentionally move to this new phase, where it's kind of just like, hung around. And those systems have been designed in a way that are like that, you know, no, one person in that system is like, I'm gonna push women down exam, but maybe they are, but they've never said it to me. And I haven't actually seen that. But what I have seen is, you know, maybe you go and pitch your idea. And they're like, oh, I'll just text my wife to find out how she found pumping you like, No, how about you go and investigate the market, and take a look at the opportunity. And think about this as a solution in the same way that you would investigate any other pitch or any other product, you know, maybe someone wants to auto turn petrol cars into electric cars, you wouldn't go and ask your mate who drives a car, whether or not that's a good idea, you would do your research at a, like, you know, market scale. So it's stuff like that, where, you know, it's not intended to, to be sexist, or whatever, but it kind of ends up like that way, because we have all of these biases. So I think, yeah, you know, it's hard to hard to combat but there are people who are trying to combat it, you know, there are plenty of groups where they're actively, you know, recruiting, not majority female investors, necessarily, but trying to find founders who have women, you know, running their companies or whatever, and presenting those to people who have the cash. You know, there's funds, government funds that are set up, to try to sort of make up that difference that women don't see in funding. So if they're, if they're receiving, you know, 50% of the funding or less of a man, you know, equivalent man, so like, a man is able to raise a million dollars, and the woman has to raise 500,000, or something like that, then the government's are stepping in to try to make up that gap. You know, there's plenty of people doing lots of good things. So it'll work. But, you know, sometimes it needs a bit of a kick up the bum to Yeah, but that is good that, you know, everyone's I feel like everyone's aware of, like you said, the systems that have are in place, and if we go to my hands, like, they're floating around us, it's not like someone standing there, you know, enforcing all this stuff. It's just the world we live in. It is and it doesn't make it better. And in some ways, it makes it harder, because you can't put your finger on it. Like, you know, I, I sort of, it's like, you know, back in the 60s, if you had a person who was working, you know, who happened to be a woman who's probably a secretary and, and someone hits her on the bum, like, clearly sexist harassment. Yeah, that never happens. It doesn't happen so much. These days, it's sort of all under the, you know, feels like it's more under the radar, it's not as easy to point to. Obviously, there's lots of cases where that's not the, you know, the case, and there's a spectrum and, you know, really serious stuff happening, you can see it all over the news. And not on the news. But but for the sort of like little tiny things that are happening during the day, like, you know, you can't call out all of it. But you do know, when you look at it empirically, the results are that women are getting funded, less women's problems are getting solved less. Women's pain is more overlooked. You know, all of this stuff on you know, when you look at it in the big picture is definitely happening. So, how do we go about addressing it? I'm not really sure. I'm sure there are much more experienced people who know more about what they're talking about. But you're part of what I don't see part of the solution that sounds like really And police, I think literally are you're in the trenches doing the work by creating these products. And by getting women involved in making these products funding these products. And I think that's fantastic. Because it has to start somewhere literally, like, it's what I always say, when I read things about how to make change, it's like, but where do you start? Like, really actually start, but I feel like what you're doing is, yeah, well, you start with what you can control, right? Like, you know, there are plenty of businesses that are aimed at trying to improve that postpartum experience or the fertility experience are plenty of them. You know, some of them are based on building up communities of women, you know, that's like what you're doing right? So that happens to be your skill, I'm not good at that. I'm not good at designing things. So this is the one thing I can change. So I think it's just, you just like, you know, you look at the all of the things that are in your sphere of concern, and you look at them the next ring down, which is your sphere of influence, you can't actually change it, but maybe you can influence it a bit. And then there's your sphere of control. So what can you do in that sphere of control that's going to have the biggest influence? And then maybe, over time, you can make that change? But I mean, it's hard. We've got, you know, cop 27, or whatever it is this happening while we're recording. You know, these people haven't been able to make change on like, such an obvious threat. So I think like, change is hard. Yeah, I think you've just got to kind of do what you can control. And hopefully don't go, you know, don't let it sort of derail you too much when it doesn't change as quickly as you'd like. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it Yeah. So when you work before you had your daughter, were you working? Like full time? Or? Yep. And then how did how did you sort of feel about that change of them, becoming a mom and having you focus almost solely on your daughter? Did you go through any sort of, I don't wanna say existential crises. But how was that experience for you? Um, I didn't find out too bad. My husband is really involved in daughter like, we definitely 5050 Maybe he's 6040 We will also at the time of the she was actually my second pregnancy, I had a first and it had ended in a stillbirth at like, 20 Something weeks. And so I was quite anxious throughout the pregnancy. And so that was my challenge. It was like, am I gonna get through this? And so we'd moved back in to mom and dad's house. And we were just all living as I know, it sounds very old school. But I'm European. I don't know, but we loved it. So we were living in my parents house had the baby, and everyone was there to help. So I didn't, it was a shock in that year. Now I've got this child and feeding wasn't going super well. But once we kind of got through that. actually really liked it. I didn't expect to I thought that I thought that I'd hate not working. But I was kind of working on milkdrop Like I had things to work on. And I've always have you know, as long as Yeah, and I wasn't 100% on the baby. So it was sort of quite balanced. I probably not remembering a whole lot of stuff. But yeah, I guess we had three adults before adults for one child. And and we had help and meals and time to walk outside and you know, if I needed a shower mum or dad would take Grettir if Andrew was working like it just wasn't sort of as stressful. So I think I had a lot more community. And also all of my friends had been through it too. And I'd been kind of dealt a blow beforehand. So I'd already had Add that like, oh, maybe you can't have everything you wanted. And it's not all that easy. So when I did have that, when I did have Greta, I was just thankful that, you know, I could have a baby. So, I think, yeah, it wasn't such a big deal for me. I didn't like how when, before that, when I'd said that I was getting married, how I suddenly like people were saying, like, oh, when are you going to stop working or like, you know, or when you got pregnant, the first time I was commenting about it, and feeling like I had to go into a different part of the business to keep my job because you know, engineering can be pretty full on and so like, all of that sort of stuff. I just, again, it's like the unsaid thing, but that was more about a phase in life. And, you know, I did work in a company that really wanted women to stick around, and they really supported me and I, you know, felt very loved and included and all the rest. So it wasn't sort of that much of an issue for me, maybe that's just, yeah, maybe it's, in hindsight, I did find that I wanted to get back to working within about four weeks, as in not working, but like working on something. So I didn't, I didn't like, I'm just, you know, I didn't settle in very well to just being with my baby. Like, I found myself like walking down to the cafe, getting her sleep. And then, you know, getting out my laptop and investigating something that's silicone, you know, but that's just what worked for me. And so yeah, I was lucky enough that I could do that. And, you know, for maternity leave and all these other privileges. So, yeah. But, like, something that I do talk to moms about on this show is having that outlet, because we can't, I mean, I'm sure there's somebody that can but it's not may be 24/7. Thinking about my children, like, I'd go insane. Yes. Yeah, I think that that's normal. Like, I mean, we also I think when you, you know, you have Yeah, like identity is an interesting one. Because, I mean, I had Greta at 35. So you know, you've got your life, like, I didn't change my name in marriage, because I've always been called by my last name, all the way through school and uni. So I kind of was my identity, I had already worked for a decade, like I'd, you know, felt like I'd sort of fought my way through a fairly male, I wouldn't say I don't say dominated because they weren't aggressive. But yeah, majority male environments like so I sort of felt like I had, like, gotten to this point. And then actually what, what I had trouble with was, then all of a sudden, you're sitting on the end of a pump, you're like, oh, no, wait, I'm just a mammal that's here to be milked for the benefit of my offspring. That felt like shit. Sorry, that felt terrible. No, you can say that. Yeah, I think, you know, that's why I sort of started to design that because I felt like, well, no, hang on. Women who have been through this shouldn't be feeling like this, I think I did a survey at the very start to see if anyone else had these issues. And for every 10 women, seven had nipple pain or discomfort using pumps, and eight felt like a cow. So like, I expected the physical thing. But I didn't expect everyone to feel that way emotionally about their product. And the other thing that I didn't like was that people are on pumps, because they're trying really hard to feed their baby breast milk, because that's what they want to do, if that's what they want to do. So, but then they're kind of like, given this experience where like, this thing's wheeled in at them, they're not really explained how to use it. It's sort of like a punishment, but these women should be held up, you know, like they should be, they should be held up on pedestals, these people are sitting on the end of a machine to milk their breasts to give breast milk, like they've trying really hard, really, really hard. Especially, you know, some of them pumping like 12 times a day, they're up in the middle the night turning this machine on, you know, I think so that kind of bothered me. And I think, um, yeah, I did struggle with that. And that's why I created these. But I kind of didn't necessarily see it as just motherhood or my particular reaction to it. I saw it more as, here's another case of where women's experience is overlooked. And, and I didn't want to also, you know, be too critical of these restaurant companies, because they're trying to design something that is affordable, that fits lots of people, the human race is super diverse, like, how do you get something that works for everybody's anatomy and physiology? Like it's not an easy thing to do? And people expect a lot you know, off their products for a certain price. Like I get how they've come into being and I'm glad that they exist, whatever, but I just felt like, you know, we could we could do a better job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's so good. Like, I can definitely relate to this the cow feeling and that then feeling feeling like literally like an animal. Like, like you said, you're supposed to, like if you shouldn't be revered if you're feeding your child and then you go out of your way to get the milk out of your body to continue feeding your child you should you shouldn't be held up on a pedestal, you know. And just like I saw, I see it all the time on like, people I follow on Instagram, but all these particularly in America, they've got an something's going on over there. With the they don't have as much maternity leave or any maternity leave. Like it's not set up, like here in Australia. Yeah, it's tied to their employment. Yes. Yeah. And, and the fact if anyone actually wants to pump, it's like, what do you want to do? What are you talking about? Like, it's not actually something that, like employers give any credit to. And I know from myself as a, as a musician, like, I've had to pump a lot of times, like most like gigs, when you're away from the kids for, you know, more than at least three hours, you know, you're gonna have to, and being in toilets or out in the car, and it's like, you just feel like you're like shamed, shunned away from everybody? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. It's just it's pretty rough. I think. I mean, America is a fascinating place, right? Like, they, they have these conditions, but then they also have, you know, there's an entire company set up there, they're called Minerva. And they create pods for lactation. So you can pop them in stadia, or you can put them in the airport or at university campuses, or downtown or whatever. And there's another one company called Milk stock, which will collect your milk pumped milk, like say you're away for work for a couple of days. And you know, you need like, you need to pump if you're feeling you need to keep that milk supply up. So, though, pick up your milk and send it back to your baby, wherever they are, like so there's all these like, it's, it's not like, yeah, the US is a very diverse and fascinating place. But yeah, they have terrible maternity like terrible government parental leave schemes and like people that kind of on their own, but it doesn't mean they have these other services around and businesses that kind of help them sort of difficult to grasp sometimes coming from coming from Australia, we've definitely learned a lot starting to sell these cushions over there. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Something else I like to talk about is the topic of mum guilt. And I find this really fascinating one because some mums I've had on have actually had to google it to find out what it was. And I think that is brilliant. And I wish that was me. And what's your thoughts on mum guilt? What it is or how to deal with it? Like do you have you experienced it? Or did you have to Google it? Like, where are you at? Yeah, I mean, mom guilt depends how you define it. Like, do I think I'm being a good mother to my daughter? Yes. Have I felt guilty that I'm not around for her sometimes, but I'm not not around for her. Like she's, she's living her best life? For sure. Yeah. She has a lot of people looking after. So like I said, My husband is there a lot. You know, she's, she's got a lot of friends. And because we live in a small town, the community around her is quite strong. You know, she knows her friend's parents, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, she's having a good childhood, she's safe. She's learning lots. She's, you know, she's pretty lucky. So I don't feel guilty about my parenting. But I do have the mom guilt about work. So, you know, am I working fast enough? Am I working hard enough? am I delivering for these people who invested in us like do they realize that I am only working nine to five? You know, am I okay with that? Because there's this culture in that kind of startup world of, you know, working 100 hours a week, which you just can't do. You know, it also comes when And you know, my daughter is sick, and I can't work that day. So there's this like, constant feeling of never getting through the pile of stuff you got to get done. And I've had to learn ways to deal with that, and not get riled up by it so much. But yeah, I find that side of it really, really hard. But in terms of like, am I being a good enough mom compared with the moms I see on Instagram? Yeah, most of the stuff that I see on there is like material stuff. You know, like, are they dressed in the right clothes? Well, no, she's always filthy. But that's because she's been playing outside in the mud, which I think is a good thing. So I think I just, yeah, I don't really have that too much. I did feel guilty that I wasn't feeding her properly. But since she's gotten older, and, you know, we, I was sort of worried like, Oh, um, you know, breast milk is, you know, it says here that it's better for them, and you know, better for their development. And like, what if I'm stunting our growth or, or making a too big? Or like, what if, you know, she's not able to, you know, develop emotionally because she's been fed formula, all that stuff, like at four, there is nothing wrong with this kid. And it's, like, I think, I think I sort of, in the sort of emotion of that time, I think I took overall statistics, too seriously. And, you know, I'm sure there's cases where that's the truth, but you know, you're not looking at it holistically, like, you know, she's got, you know, she's lucky enough to have parents who love her and look after her and she's fine. So I think I'm, I'm much less concerned about that. And that that was like a fairly big lesson. And so, you know, when you go through all those milestones of kid hood, you know, toilet training, really, like we're going through breeding right now, like, I'm not too fussed about it, I just figure well, you know, she'll figure it out. When she's ready. We'll just keep teaching, she seems to like to learn. You know, the only time I get upset is when she's not nice to other kids. And I think I'm kind of a psychopath. But But like, you know, all of that is fixable as well. So I think like, it's not pretty age appropriate. Yeah, I just don't get too stressed about that. And I think she'll, you know, she'll be fine. She's, she's, she's not the one that, you know, we need to be improving things for. Hmm, no, that's really great answer. Yeah. And I'm wondering if I were going before when you talked about living with your parents and having perhaps that, that village that we don't sort of, say so much every day now. And you talk about coming from a European background? I wonder if that I'm not a psychologist, by the way, I'm just I have ideas and I say them out loud. I wonder if that's contributed, like that level of support has allowed you to relax and mother the way you want to mother and not feel any outside? You know, expectations from outside? Because you're really secure in the unit that you've got. Potter? Yeah, I think so. And I've never really been particularly like that concerned about peer, maybe peer pressure or like, perception of others. I think I the thing I do care about is if someone felt that I was being unkind or untruthful or mean or anything like that, I would be totally distressed. But in terms of like, someone judging me to be parenting the right way, or cool, or any of that stuff, I've never cared, and I don't think I ever will. And so, I think that really helps because going into parenthood, you're just like, well, this is, you know, this is what I think is good for my kid. And I just look around at the other parents and I see and I like, take what I like and don't do what I don't like, and, you know, every kid's different, every parent's different. Everyone's juggling their own thing. Like I actually think there's probably less judgement than we think and a lot of that actually, coming from ourselves. So yeah, I mean, I've got really supportive parents. You know, my mum's a super practical, like, pragmatic woman. And, you know, sometimes I'd go to her and say, How do you think I'm doing this? Right? She's like, after worrying about it's fine, you know? Like, she just sort of shuts it down. You're like, Alright, cool. And you're like, well, that's kind of drama. Yeah, that's, that's obvious. Yes. I think that's nice. Yeah. It's nice to have that grounding. Because I think if you're like on your phone, and you start Googling this stuff, you're like, Oh, my God, I'm doing all these terrible things. And I think, you know, you can't hear one thing that made me feel better was like, okay, You look at like Louis, for example, in those parents, like super involved in their kids lives and into their imaginations or whatever, but then you realize it's a seven minute episode. Seven minutes. So you've got like, 24 hours times, 60 minutes, whatever that is, like, you just can't perform to what's out there. So as long as you're keeping them safe, they know they can come to you, if they've got a problem. They get to try to do things and meet different people nurture their curiosity, like I just, you know, we're going to stuff them up in some way. You can't predict it. Like you just kind of wait to see what happens and try to build there. Like, I think you just got to build the sort of building blocks of coping and joy and curiosity and hope that they come to you when they have problems. That's, that's, yeah, no, I really like that. It's very, like I can, I can tell you a lot like your mom like that pragmatism and straightforward. It's like, Yep, it's fair. I mean, I'm not really Yeah, like, I still. So we live, like I said, we live in Brighton, there's a lot of people who are very good at sport here, I'm not one of them. But the kids around here are very free. You know, they're the bike track, they ski, they climb, they do all sorts of stuff. And they're very, I would say, like, physically aware, like, physically pretty good. And so, and some of the other parents are a lot better at this than I am like, they'll let their kids you know, experiment like, you know, ride down that steep slope that ends in a, you know, Cliff, and they'll be totally fine with that. And I'm like, Oh, my God, this is my group is child. I don't want to know how to self I just wanted to be competent, you know, so I definitely have issues with that. But I also know that if she learns her limits now, it'll be better for her later. So yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not perfect. No, apparently, is. It is that balance, isn't it? It's because that's the thing. We still have to sleep at night, you know, even if they want to do like, jump off the roof. It's like, well, hang on a sec. Oh, that's where I draw the line. You know? Yeah. You gotta hit boundary. Yeah. Like, my, my boys are so active in so into everything. And yeah, they're great. I just let them go to the point where I don't feel comfortable. It's like, yeah, I figure. If they think they can do it, they probably can. And if they're willing to give it a go, that probably means it will go okay. Yeah. And if they don't know, then like, I think where I draw the line is like, how they treat other people. So I think that stuff I try to come down fairly firm on. And sort of, yeah, treating other people with respect to being kind and all of that, but like in terms of everything else. Just go for it. We've met a few broken out. That's quite a lot, isn't it? Yeah. The Rite of Passage. Yeah, so I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, back in the beginning, we talked, you mentioned a little bit about how art and science used to be really close together. And you mentioned a little bit in your email that you'd send to me, and it really got me thinking, at what point did these two sort of practices for one of a better word start to go away from each other? You know what I mean? Because you're right rennet. The Renaissance period was massively, massively science, all of that. Yeah, no thinking. And then art somewhere has just floated off into this thing. That's, it's unnecessary for pretty much everything. Things need to be designed, like the designer of art, but then almost the I don't want to say the frivolous element of art, because it's not about probably seen like that, in terms of a capitalist society. So things sort of, yeah. What's your take on that? I think it's shocking that we don't fund it more like one of the sort of down point down. Down points for me, it was I don't know if it's last year, the year before when we started defunding, pure mathematics, and arts degrees and things because they don't have practical application. And as someone who is in the business of practical applications, I think that is the stupidest thing that we could do as a country. You know, our, our new ideas, the things we're going to be using in 30 years time come from people doing art, we're doing pure Mathematics or doing pure? You know, even studying history like these are these are things that, you know, don't have like a monetizable tangible outcome, yet they're absolutely critical, you know, yeah, they're so linked. The idea that universities have to beg industry to do research projects, because the only research projects that have value are ones that industry can use. I just, I just think it's disgusting. Into You know, we've, we are a country that has benefited off, you know, really strong science for such a long time. And then, I don't know, 2015 20 years ago, we started defunding it now with like, the lowest spend on research and development as a proportion of GDP in in the whole OECD, I think, you know, that is really short sighted to me, yeah, when it cut in. So that's just like the, that's just, you know, if you think about it as a spectrum from like, engineering, through mathematics, or applied mathematics, mathematics, and then you get to these humanities and art, like, you know, we're just, we're struggling in applied mathematics right now funding that. And to me, that's all wrong. In terms of, I think, you know, there are people who are mixing these together. And, but it feels more like a luxury than common place, you know, it might be like one artist in residence, might come in and do a few research projects or something like that, but it's not ever part of how we function so much. And I think that's a real shame. And I think it's going to bite us in the air soon. Maybe it already is. And I think art is really important for communicating, and exploring how we feel about things, I think that is responsible for, you know, going into the sort of imaginary world and dreaming up what things could look like. And if you can't dream up what they look like, how can you possibly make them? Yeah, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important. I used to I once had this workshop, a guy in, in our company was working with some city designers, and government, people who are in charge of designing cities. And he used to run these workshops for people. And on day two or three, he would put a creative writing piece up on the walls, like he would go home and write this story about the future of this city, from the perspective of a person, and then the whole exercise in the workshop would get these, you know, very pragmatic people to go and highlight the things in that story that kind of like, got them thinking. And then you know, and then the next the next part of it was like, Okay, well, what could we create today that would help us test whether that idea could exist? Now that whole exercise came from him being able to do some really, really beautiful creative writing that got people thinking, and so, yeah, to me, like, all of that is critical. And, you know, and yeah, just because it's not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And you can argue that the case for so many other different things, like just because our ecosystem is not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have trillions of dollars of value in all of the things it does for us clean air, clean water, all of these, you know, safe climate to live in, you know, yet we devalue them because we can't monetize them straightaway. So I think that that's a real issue that we're going to have we're facing at the moment, and we're going to have to get our heads around, you know, the value of things that are intangible. Anyway, that's my rant on it. Ya know, I look honest, I don't know how to fix it. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Like it really frustrated? The hell out of me in COVID? And I know, you're probably in Victoria, you have a lot worse with the lock downs. And we did. But the thing that shocked me was that the sport kept going, like the all of the AFL footballers, could travel around Australia do what they want, but all of the arts like, at a very basic level, like I had gigs canceled, you know, and then you've got people like, more people traveling into state to do concerts, they couldn't do it. And then all sudden, you'd have 40,000 people at a football match. And I was like, What is going on? And Devin said to me, it's because it doesn't make as much money or you know, that's dumb, money stuff. But you look at this stuff that we look at the things that we identify ourselves as even as a culture like they're not, I mean, sport is a part of it, but it's there's a huge cultural value to these things. And even within the arts. Like I was listening to Richard Flanagan, the authors speak about the value of writing versus film. He's not saying that films would be de invested in, but he was just saying like, you know, Australian authors, like we have an enviable, enviable, you know, culture of writing here, which actually is a very, it sounded like it was a fairly new thing like Australia used to be looked at as like an outpost of British writing, right? Like, yeah, British authors will write, and then Australians will buy it. And then somewhere along the way, they started investing in Australian stories. And, you know, it's been remarkably successful, but we've had the any funding, and it's easier, just like, well, there's all these parts of the arts that are so critical to who we are and what we do. And I just, I think we've kind of like skewed over to this, like, you know, practical, which is great. I don't just obviously, I'm benefiting from it. But I just, it just makes me a little bit sad. And yeah, I sort of, yeah, remember this one? I had this friend at uni. Who's, who was? Who was talking to his dad? He was like, oh, yeah, I've got this friend Alex. And his dad was like, oh, yeah, what does she do? And he was like, A, she's studying engineering and commerce. And then his dad was like, oh, charming. And so my friend, my friend told me this, and I was like, super offended at the time, because like, today, you know, I'm doing all these great things. And then, as I've gotten older, I'm like, Oh, I get your point, like, things are not things are very practical things that are very useful, but like, what am I actually contributing to? Like, what am I really learning? Like, am I actually getting an education? Or am I just like, you know, learning how to get stuff done, which is a useful skill, but, you know, shouldn't be at the expense of people. You know, interpreting the world and thinking about how I'm, you know, telling stories and thinking about how things could be different imagining how things could be different, which is where I see, you know, arts or arts could be if they were funded better. Yeah, no, I totally agree with all that. It's just like, I think they cut the CSIRO. Like, they just was at the Liberal government that did that. I can't remember when it happened. Yeah, and I just think, oh, like you said, it's gonna bite us in the ass. And it might already be doing that. But there has to come a point where all of a sudden, they go off sheet. We've stuffed this up like, yeah, and this obsession with everything happening, like you said, the money, the monetization, if you can't make money out of it. It just diminishes the value of it so much. And that really, is something that really annoys me. Yeah, but I mean, I guess like the consolation is at the community level, people still love it. Like, I mean, you remember the first gig you played when you got back? Right? Where people crying, you know, like, I think, you know, it's pretty overwhelming and even even after you know, log, it's been what, a year and a half since lockdowns here. And anytime I see live music, I'm still super emotional about it. And everyone is. So I think at the community level, like people get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I guess it's easy to get down about I'm not in that position. But yeah, yeah. I just don't like the way that you write about, like, people. It's the people in front of you that make the difference. And then the people that make the rules and tell everyone what to do, especially with all that locked down stuff, it's like it just shows you what they think of it. And it's like, even the people that aren't the performers, you know, the people that were allowed to dance but a just like everyone was frustrated at how this whole industry was being judged. I don't know just anyway, I gotta stop. No, no, I can I can unless. With when you were growing up, did you have like your mum, your mum, sort of these cultural norms that are like to sort of look at about where you learnt your stuff. I suppose you have talked about how you mum, you know that pragmatic nature to sort of? Yes, yeah, that's fine. Oh, no, that's not did she work? Like after she had you or anything like that? To sort of show you how you could do it? I guess. Yeah. Probably not at the time you realizing that, you know, you weren't taking note, but you know what I? Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I was I was I had a mom and dad. So dad is a scientist. And so he's The opposite, right? It's super intellectual, very slow pace, slow thinking, precise, like, wants to get to the bottom of everything analytical. And mom is like, on the other end of the spectrum, like, get it done, get it done quickly. 8080 20 rule, like, just come on, you know. So the balance of those, you know, I sort of feel like it's almost a superpower. Like, who am I going to channel today? Like mom or dad? Because both of them are, you know, right for the moment. Hmm. Um, so in terms of like the family balance, I guess. It like on the surface, I guess it would seem very traditional dad worked a full time job. He was like the primary breadwinner. Mum is a physio and she worked locum jobs. So she just only it was kind of like being a replacement teacher equivalent. But she was a physio. And it was with the same group every time, she was really good friends with all the people she worked with. And if someone you know, someone went away for a holiday, or whatever, she might cover them for a couple of weeks. And she actually was kind of working full time. But doing loads of work. Yeah. And what it meant. And what I've learned since is that it allowed her to like, it allowed her to work, but not be emotionally involved in it. So she loved it. She loved helping people. She loved working with those people. And then but she had no like, she didn't have to do paperwork. She didn't have to do admin, she didn't have any politics. She had no commitment. It was just like all the good parts. And I think I remember thinking like, how could you do you know, like, don't you want to like sink your teeth in a bit more. And now I'm like, Oh, I get it. This is awesome. That is fantastic. So I think that's sort of how she made that work. Whereas dad was much more like, you know, I'm, I'm here working in this job. And, you know, he loved I think he loved the job, but there was much more sort of obligation and doing the right thing and Yeah, sort of a more balanced like, you know, slog slog like, yeah, yeah, I know, he loved his work and like the the work that he was doing, and the people that he worked with, and all the rest, but it was definitely much more like, I'm going to plod through here and this is you know, I need to do this and yeah, so I think, yeah, they were different. And in terms of home life, like mum basically just made everything happen. So, you know, dad's job was pretty full on. So he, he was working and then, you know, mum looked after us. You know, all the extracurricular stuff. Got us for school organized. All it just everything for mental load. Yeah. So yeah, but I think I learned a lot from them. They had a very even sort of even decision making it home so that, you know, the power dynamic was very even. You know, I think, especially when it came to discipline. Yeah, it was it was quite even there as well. I don't know. You only kind of like, Yeah, I think they did a remarkable job. I'm grateful that I was born into the family. Yeah, can't really can't really take too much. I was lucky. Yeah. Sounds very balanced. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't perfect. No family is perfect. Like, we definitely have our flaws. I'm sure if you spoke to my husband. He really thinks I think, you know, our two families are quite different. We're definitely more argumentative. We, but it's not like a mean, argumentative. It's just a question like, What do you think about this? So you're wrong? This is how it should be that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, strong families are the way which is very lucky thing to have, I think. Yeah, that's for sure. That sounds lovely. You made the argument. My husband and I, we like to debate topics. Yes, we come from very different headspace and backgrounds. He's a financial planner. And yeah, I don't like maths at all. And we have different views when it comes to politics. So we'll often be having discussions and the little one will say, Stop arguing. And we'll both be like, but we're not talking about this and I'm getting passionate about. Yeah, yeah. So and I think that that's kind of like it's sort of like a, you know, you're not you're not gonna get in trouble. Yeah. Sometimes I find you need to sort of argue things out to understand what you think yourself as well. And so I'd agree with that. It's nice to have that space. Yeah. Less, you're less and less able to do that in public. Oh, or you basically get shut down for a while and I offending someone or saying the wrong thing or something. So yeah, you do need those safe spaces to debate things and to, to thrash out ideas and, and like my eldest child, he's 50, nearly 15. So he's asking some interesting questions and you want to be able to feel like you can ask them. You know, like I said before, you hope that your child does come to you. And he certainly comes to us with interesting things. And we're like, Yep, okay, we can talk about that, you know. It's good. I quite enjoy a conversation like that. I enjoy conversation. Can you share with us the website? Or any socials that you active on that you? Oh, yeah, sure. So, yeah, so milkdrop pumps.com. And in the new year, we'll be running a campaign. You know, I mentioned a couple times about how there's not a lot of research in women's health, or not as much as they could be. And one of the things there's not much research on is women's nipple anatomy, and lactating or otherwise. And that's a real problem, because it means when you're trying to figure out how to design products for women, you actually don't have the basics available. A lot of research on women's nipples is older research that was about nipple attractiveness. Where should the nipple be placed on the breast? How big should it be? What shape should it be? That kind of thing. Some of that was used for cosmetic surgery, some of it was used for breast reconstruction. And then, the other area of nipple research is for social media, identifying female versus male nipples to take down the female nipples, because it's illegal to post them not illegal, but against, you know, Getty policy to show a female nipple, which we could go into another podcast about that. And so what we're trying to do is ask women to measure their nipples to help us build up an understanding of what women's bodies actually look like, so that we can design things for actual women. So we've got our campaign on that. Coming up, in the New Years, watch out for that. Be on Instagram at milkdrop, underscore pumps, or tick tock, ah, your tick, DECA. I still haven't gone there. I feel like it's too much of a big rabbit hole for me to go down. It's pretty full on news. And I'll put hyperlinks in the show notes so people can find you. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been so lovely to chat with you and to you to your achievements. And thank you for for thanks for having me. I feel like a bit of an interloper in the in the art world. But who? Artists, hopefully Yeah, to hear from someone who appreciates it, but doesn't do it. No look, and I think that the things that you've shared are extremely relevant. So please don't feel like you're, you know, I don't know what the word is. But you're not. You're not and you know, you, you've seen it, you've created something amazing. I'm really, really happy that you did it. And I'm really happy for you for what you've done to say. Good on you. And stop blabbing now to say thanks very much. Okay. Awesome. All right. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parent called Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Fiona Valentine Melbourne artist + artist business coach S2 Ep54 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes ) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, a visual artist + a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and a mother of 2. Fiona grew up a creative child, her mother enjoyed drawing, she was influenced by her, she received her first oil paint set at the age of 12, and she did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After high school finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age Fiona found herself with a new baby, living in a mud hut in Niger in Africa. She put her art aside, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, that it felt frivolous, it didn't seem like it had a place. This was a decision she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia, with 2 children. She then realised how crucial her art was to her life balance, she taught herself watercolour and acrylic. She delved into training, joining the Australian Guild of Realist Artists. The life changing training she received lead her to share her love of artwork and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delved back into her creativity. We chat today about how finding your creativity can enhance other parts of your life, creating new neural pathways in your brain, finding new ways to create and looking at things differently. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression, autism + Asperger's syndrome** Connect with Fiona website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website What is a lean specialist? Kate Northrup book "Do Less" Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the bonding people as the traditional owners of the land which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, vas a visual artist and a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom of two. Fiona grew up as a creative child. Her mother enjoyed drawing. She was influenced by her and received her first oil paint set at the age of 12. She did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After High School finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age, Fiona found herself with a newborn baby living in a mud house in New Year in Africa. She put aside her art, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, then it felt frivolous. It didn't seem like he had a place. This was a decision that she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia with two children. She then realized how crucial her art was to her life balance. She taught herself watercolors and acrylics. She delved into training, joining the Australian guild of real estate artists. The life changing training she received led her to share her love of artwork, and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delves back into her creativity. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression, autism and Asperger's syndrome. The music you'll hear today is from Australian New Age ambient music trio lmJ which features myself my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you too nice to meet somebody who's podcasting on this continent. Oh whereabouts are you? I'm in Melbourne. Our lovely my mum was born in Altona that down at the beachside suburb. So it's been a lot of time going to Melbourne over the years. So yeah, we my sister was born in Adelaide. So while our family were there, so we've been done the South Australia Victoria. Have you gone through Mount Gambier much on your way? Between there you go the the upwards upwards route? Well, we were actually in Moogerah for a few years. So we often also between Algeria and Adelaide. Yeah, I've done that. And yeah, I don't I don't think we went through Mount Gambier very often. Is that where you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm getting an amount. Yep. Not many people like that. I talked to on you know, Mount Gambier at all. So I know people have lived there, but I don't think I've ever actually been there. Yeah. Okay, I was born here. But I've lived all over. I grew up pretty nomadic childhood. And I lived in like four countries. The first five years I was married. We've been settled in the same street in Melbourne for nearly 20 years now, which is great. That would be really hectic, like moving like countries, little line moving, you know, towns moving countries. Yeah, you get good at it. You probably wouldn't like want to accumulate too much stuff, either. Because you sort of, you know, when you go next place, you'd be like, Oh, I don't want to take too much baggage, I suppose. Yeah, you learn. You don't want to have to carry too much with you. But you also learn to I think that objects are they have a sacredness about them and you can't just clear out everything because they hold our stories. And you want to take some of that familiarity and comfort with you even in an overseas move, which gets trickier because you have to weigh everything Tell us about yourself. You're watercolor artists and you are an art coach as well can you share sort of how you got into painting like growing up what you was, was that sort of your main art form of there any influences how you got into it, I really, I just always enjoyed the idea of being creative. And painting and drawing. Were very interesting to me. My mom was really supportive. And she liked to sketch and I still have my first oil paint box that she bought me when I was 12. And I got some really good training, when I was in high school, living in the country, just a really tiny school. But we did some courses on drawing and watercolor. So I got some good skills early on, which was really helpful. And then later I had, I worked with an artist who taught us how to draw from little still life settings and things like that gave me a bit of oil painting, tuition, but then I didn't really do a whole lot with it. I went overseas after high school. And I thought I was going on a six month trip to teach kids to read. And the trip got extended, I met my husband, we got married here in Australia and went back overseas. So my life took a little bit different path than I thought it was going to. And so I found myself with a new baby in a madhouse in Africa, thinking that my creativity felt really self indulgent and frivolous. And I made a really bad decision to just sort of put it aside because in light of poverty and suffering, and it just didn't seem like it had a place. But that was just, you know, her 23. What did I know? If I'd had another voice at the time helping me see how these things could work together, it would have been really helpful. But instead, yeah, I hit my 30s, my, I had two girls, by now I was back in Australia. And I really started to understand how core creativity was, to me, as a person to all human beings. We're just we're born creative, we just don't always recognize it, or develop it. And I really began to treasure that and see how crucial it was to my balance and well being as a human. For me, it was a connection with God as well, just that was how I was wired, for relationship with him. So I really made it a priority. I'm mobile, I read everything I could from the library, and taught myself first of all, watercolor. And then I moved on to acrylic, and then finally got my brave up to try oil. And I just loved it. And that's where I started to get some training. Then I joined the Australian guild of realist artists. And they were running winter schools for a few years, we could go for a week and spend time with some master artists. And it was absolutely life changing fan tastic got introduced to much more skill based training for realism, and composition and drawing and painting and color use. And it was wonderful. So that really helped me build my skills and understand how to create the kind of art that I was really interested in. There are so many things you've just said in there that I want to ask you about. But the one that sticks out is the mud hot living in Africa. Can you give us a bit of background, how you actually ended up there? What was the circumstances that brought you to living there? It wasn't something I ever thought would happen. When I chose this trip of going to Africa, I thought I'd be in a fairly rural setting. But for just a few months, it turned out I was in a large town that was you know, had stores and cars and all that sort of thing, electricity. And I lived with another couple. After I met my husband, we went back to that same town and we worked in an international school. And so we were helping kids with transition. We did some training in the US, which actually helped us as well as everybody else on how to make those big moves and handle them. When you're going across cultures. Maybe you've spent many years in one culture and now you're moving permanently to another one. Just how that affects us was fascinating stuff. And then we moved in Tunisia and we live just south of the Sahara desert in very small mud village. And it wasn't actually a heart although it was mud. It didn't have electricity or running water. It was sort of like a three bedroom house, and we put a kitchen in one of the so called bedrooms, and and nothing was really square. And it was very hot. So we slept outside. Oh, wow. And sort of had to run the hose at three in the morning because we were on a bit of a hill, when the rest of the town didn't have the water on, we could actually get the hose to work and fill up some barrels with water. Oh my gosh. So it was pretty crazy. We had some solar power. Yep. And we would go bushing outfall drive because we were working with nomads, so we would go out and stay with them slip on sand. The stars were amazing. But it was a pretty full on existence, you know, just making sure you had clean water, putting it through the filter, baking bread, ground grinding meat, just surviving was an language learning was pretty tough with a with a new baby. It was a pretty extreme, really extreme time. But we weren't there terribly long. After about 18 months, we came back to Australia. And we had planned to go back. But for lots of reasons it it was clear to us it was right to stay here in Australia. And we had another baby and daughter life here. Yeah, though, like, let alone, you know, take the fact that you've got a baby out of the mix, that would still be incredibly challenging. But then obviously, that's a whole like, yeah, that's like I can't get around that was really big. And for lots of reasons. Although I loved it. I loved being there. And I was really committed to being there to what we were doing. It also took a heavy toll on me. And I think part of that, I mean, often, postpartum depression can be a thing that we face, whether that's hormones, or whatever it is. And being separated from my support system. I think that was a big part of it, too. A friend who's a psychologist who works with moms, has identified grief, actually, if we're separated from our mother, by, you know, could be relationship reasons, or, or death or distance. But when we don't have that mother support that village, that other women in our life caring for us, we actually go through grief, but it's often not recognized. Often it's misdiagnosed as depression. That was another piece I learned recently that made me think, Aha, I think there was some of that going on. Plus the creative piece of making that choice to think no, no. In this context, that would just be so self indulgent, instead of saying no, no, it would have been something to really help me navigate that tough time. Yeah, I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from both sides of the coin there. Yeah, I can imagine if you're if you're Yeah, if you if you're worrying about having, you know, potable water that you're, you know, that's important. And then if you're using water to paint, you'd think or is that the right thing to do you know what I mean? You'd be questioning this the ethics behind it, I suppose, like, you know, if people are struggling to get clean water, and I'm using it to dip my paintbrush eat like, you know what I mean? Yes, yes, just the simple things can feel indulgent. And there's also a strange feeling of if someone else is suffering, then who am I to not be suffering? And, yeah, you can't go into a situation in a third world country as a Westerner and not feel that there's a difference in lifestyle here. There has to be if I if I didn't maintain drinking water, or you know, some measure of Western food, I probably wouldn't survive. I haven't grown up learning to just deal with a particular environment. Yeah, a harsh environment. So there's some of it, that's necessity, but trying to work out. How much of that helps and how much just be free of it. It's just the way it is. And just be be myself and understand that these women around me, they're enjoying their creativity. It may be different than the way I would Yeah, but they're embroidering. They're making designs. They like the way things look. And they love having a new dress like I do. They're just doing it slightly differently in their context. I didn't need to feel that way. I understand why I did. But if I'd had, I guess, probably just some more time to grow up. If I had more understanding, I could have been kinder to myself. But I think even now, you know, I think people when they see trouble in the world, they can feel like their creativity isn't as important and the need to do something really makes a difference. And they forget that actually, our creativity is hugely powerful both for our own coping stress, and for the things that we make, and how they help create home environments that help us cope with stress, or work environments that help us be productive, or healthcare environments that heal. So if if creativity is something that's really your thing, whether it's music, whether it's art, it's so powerful. When you're saying, talking, then I just had that thought, just recently with the conflict in Ukraine, that there was a footage I saw of a, a gentleman whose son had been in the hospital with being traded in Ukraine, and as the son had been finally discharged, and the dad played his saxophone for the, the doctors and nurses and the other patients there as his little thank you. And, you know, you think that if you play the saxophone or sing or something, you think that so simplistic, I do that all the time. But in that context, you know, the, the joy that it can bring others in, you know, the emotions, and the connection that it creates, you know, is huge, you know, and remembering to do that for ourselves, and our own household, and the people who buy our albums or buy our paintings. It's not just about racing off to a part of the world that suffering and doing something about it, although we feel that it's often just seeing how am I bringing the healing of creativity, the joy of it to my everyday life? My family's everyday life? And my customers everyday life? Yeah, that's, that's so important. That's it, that's a massive point. When you came back to Australia, when was the point that you sort of realized, I'm feel like I've lost myself, I've lost my creativity. And I need to get it back. You talked about you started to do some reading and stuff was there one moment where you just went, I need to change this was it sort of, there were a couple of moments, I knew I was underweight, struggling with my mental health, and not in a good place, which kind of surprised me, because I had been so excited about being in Africa, and so committed to the work that we were doing. But that doesn't stop environments, and even the spiritual environment we're in, and an environment where placing curses on people is a part of normal, everyday life. And if you've never encountered that, and don't really think it's a thing, that doesn't mean it's not a thing. So it was a lot in that environment that I was perhaps only even partially aware of. So I knew when I got back, I needed something needed to change. And I, I kind of felt like creativity was part of it. So gardening was a gentle beginning. As I became more confident in how important my creativity was, quilting became part of it. And then eventually, I was like, Okay, I really want to make space for painting. And a few years had gone by at this point. And there were some, some theological learnings, really just discovering that God is three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that their community of friendship and joy is creative. That was a real lightbulb moment for me as a Christian going, Wow, that my creativity is not just my thing, and a self indulgent thing, it's deeply core to the nature of God and the relationship has invited me into and for me, that was the biggest, okay, I get it, I get why this is core to who I am, and to my life and to my relationship with God. And it gave me the freedom to say I'm going to pour resources at this time I'm going to invest in growing my creative skills and drawing and painting in the way that I've been wanting to. For years I've been dabbling with music and gardening and quilting, but yeah, just it gave me the yes let's dive in. Yeah, yeah, almost like that. That not permission but that reassurance I suppose that you felt like yes, this is this is it and this is important and it is a value and I can see Yeah, that I'm supporting this I suppose as well. You felt really sure really comfortable with that. So you also work as an art Coach, can you share with us about what you do there? I've been teaching drawing and painting for a few years. And that was how I made the transition from being an admin manager. After homeschooling my kids, I needed a job, they went to school. And that's what I ended up doing. I learned a lot of business skills doing that. And then I just the desire to paint more got really strong. So I built up workshops and classes on the side until I could replace my salary. And during that process, that teacher, part of me, really came alive again. And so I've been juggling my own painting and teaching for quite some time. And I started to have this desire to teach beyond just the class session, because I could see the transformation that was happening in people's lives. So I started luxury art retreats, where women could come for three days, we went to the Yarra Valley, state and beautiful country hotel. And I taught them my six keys to painting, and just watching their dreams come alive, because I get them to start with, who are you? What do you love? What do you enjoy? What subject is most important to you? What style do you like the most start there. And then just learned those things, because there isn't time to learn everything. So learn how to make the kind of art that you most like making. I mean, if you're a musician, you don't feel like you have to sing classical jazz country. You don't have to do it all you kind of know what you like. And you go with that. Yeah. So I kind of took that pathway with helping my students find focus. And then watching these women come live and realizing as I was growing my own art business, and investing in courses and coaching, learning, aha, that this message, I'm hearing so often that it's really hard to sell art. Or you need to get into art shows and win awards. Or you need to get gallery representation. And this is how you do it. I started to think now I think there's another way and I started to realize the entrepreneurial opportunity of the internet for artists. So I started building, how to help artists move on from painting, to being able to do what I've done, and create a side hustle from the art and even a full time business. And so now that's really what I focus on. As a business coach for artists, I've created the profitable artist method. And I teach artists how to get clarity on what they really want to make, and who it's for. Get clarity on how much time they want to spend and how much money they want or need to make. And to build a simple business and marketing plan from there. Yeah, right. That's awesome. Because I think that there is there is this not what the word is, this can be a misconception, I suppose at least this way we see the starving artists, you know that, you know, art's not a real job, you can't make money out of art, you know, and you're basically kicking that to the curb and going no, actually, if you do it in the, you know, particular way, in a particular method, then there's so many opportunities for making a living from your art, for sure. I believe real artists don't starve they thrive. But it does mean recognizing that as an artist, you're not only an art ambassador, you're also an artist, entrepreneur, you're in business, if you want to make a living from your art, and that doesn't. That's not selling out. That's not compromising your creativity. It's an extension of it. Yeah, so it's looking at it in a different way of, you know, taking ownership of it and seeing it as a business rather than I don't know, just a hobby in real cities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. And that can be a challenging mindset, I think for for some people to sort of see that in the barriers, like you said that that selling out mentality, which I'm putting in air quotes. That, yeah, it's, it's if it's what you want, then why should you be held back by you know, maybe some beliefs that you've had in the past or people around you have these certain beliefs? Do you encounter encounter sort of that sort of pushback from people when they're going through that transition? Yes, it can be there, even if they don't fully believe it for themselves. Maybe they doubt themselves? Have I got what it takes? Or they worry? It's about talent? How do I know if I'm talented enough? Whereas actually, I think the more we understand brain science, the more we realize, the people we have thought were the most talented, have actually benefited from training and practice. Those are skills that have been developed. It's not really even in the case of someone like Mozart. It's not just about talent. It's about the environment, the training, the practice, the discipline, that It's really liberating. Because if you can learn art skills to grow your art ability, you can also learn business skills to grow, that even if you're not techie, or you've never had business experience, there are some really simple things you can do. To make sure that as you create work, you share that work with people who love what you love, and can afford to buy it. And you make a buying experience, which these days we can do online, so that they can buy from you. And you create this whole ecosystem using social media and an email list and website. So you, I mean, you're asking that pushback. Yes, there's pushback, but really, there are a lot of people who hold on to this sort of toxic suffering starving artist thing. I just think why you don't need to. So ask yourself, Do I want to thrive? Do I want to make art I love and make a living and build a life I love or do I want to starve for me? I know which one I want? Yeah, that's awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. I want to talk a bit about your own children. Can you share? You've got two children. I've got two girls and they're grown and in their 20s. Now, yeah. One's a nurse. And one has worked as a library assistant. She's currently doing some writing and working, helping me actually quite a bit at home. And yeah, they aren't at all. They yes or no, no, in the sense that neither of them have a desire to be making drawings and paintings. They're both quite creative. My oldest daughter who's a nurse is very creative. And she really brings just this amazing problem solving people caring, empathic sense to her nursing and palliative care. And the other ones come up with a really creative ways of challenging kids who don't love reading, to do a six chapter challenge. That's what she calls it. Read the first six chapters of this book I recommend, and if you still don't like it, I'll give you another one. By the time they get six chapters in their heart, yeah, lots of converts. So yeah, their creativity comes out in different ways than art. That sort of goes back to what you were saying earlier about how we are innately who humans are creative beings. But I think there's a lot of people that discount that in themselves. And even some women that I've approached to be on this podcast, perhaps looking at themselves a different way to where I am as a as an outsider, I see someone who is creating something who's, you know, has created something from scratch and is, is making it work and making changes to it as they go. And I see that as a creative person. And they'd say, Oh, but I don't make anything that cycle. It's not about necessarily making something and having something in your hand that right. Yeah, can you can you sort of expand on that a little bit? Yeah, my husband, Mike is a lien specialist these days. I don't know if you've come across the lien. But it's a whole system of tools and behaviors that helps businesses to work efficiently and helps them to value people and use tools and systems so that they can reduce waste, reduce overwork, not pass on poor quality, things like that. So it makes millions of dollars worth of difference to big companies. But the principles are really amazingly simple and helpful. So as he and I've talked over the years, you know, having a glass of wine sitting down, he's talking about Lean, I'm talking about art talking about our day. We've just seen how many of these things come together. So I actually created a program for businesses called The Art of innovation, using classical drawing to help businesses see 50% of people don't think they're creative. The reality is 100% of us are and if you're going to have a business committed to continuous improvement, you've got to help your people tap into their creativity. They're not going to be creative if they don't think they've got the goods. So add a drawing can be a great way to realize Oh, with a bit of training, oh my goodness, look at that amazingly realistic. Foot I just drew, with these three steps you just taught me Wow. Okay, I'm more creative than I thought. And it's not that being creative is about making art, as you said, or making anything is about recognizing I have this potential, to think of something, to think about it, to think about the problems, to think about the solutions, and to make changes. And my thinking, and my ideas want to understand how my brain works, and how I make tiny new connections that feel so awkward and uncomfortable, and how they can grow. And with repetition, they can practice and develop until we've got like these superhighways of information in our heads where things travel quick, fast, then we can have the courage to grow and change at work, and doing things new ways, problem solving, collaborating, where we've got different opinions coming together, we can realize this feels really uncomfortable right now. But as we persevere, we're gonna get through it, we're gonna come through to the solution. And drawing models that process, that life process. So these workshops are powerful in helping businesses unlock their creativity, for all of the applications within business. Because yeah, you're right, it's like, I think, in COVID, sort of presented so many opportunities for looking at doing things in different ways. And unless somebody feels as though they've got the confidence to think differently, or think like that, but they won't, I think, and then if you, like you said, you open up one tiny little bit of creativity, where they can physically see that they are capable. And then you must just see them thrive, they must just go, oh, my gosh, what else am I capable of, you know, and it gives them that confidence, to share their ideas and to look at things in different ways and challenge things. Yeah. And once you've got those neural pathways in your head, if you struggle through the awkward learning phase, the learning phase of anything feels like trying to write with your with the wrong hand. If you've ever broken an arm and had to write with your other hand, it feels terrible. Yeah, yeah. If you've never done it, try it. It's awful. That feeling is like, that's what learning anything feels like, but you get through it. And then those neural pathways are available for different skills. And that's where it gets really exciting. Yeah, yeah. It's like, just because it worked for one thing, then your brain can connect it to, to sort of reach other outcomes that possibly weren't able to be accessed before. Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. That's, like very clever to be able to recognize that you could put those two things together and, and make something that's of such value. Because I feel like, at different times, you know, the government comes out with these different ideas that they're going to train the next generation of whatever. And these these jobs haven't been thought of yet, and, and stuff like that. But then you think, how do they actually do that? You know, doesn't make sense to me. But then you say something like this, that makes perfect sense. Like, you know, it's like, you're just you're discovering things that haven't, you haven't had the chance to discover before? Because your brain hasn't been like that. Yeah. And that process that you're talking about? Michael Gallup, who wrote a book called, how to think like Leonardo da Vinci, he says that creative endurance is the most distinctive trait of highly creative people. And it's that ability to push through it when it feels yuck. When it feels uncomfortable, unfamiliar, I'm stuck at this, I can't do it. And you realize this is just a phase. And you get some help you get some training, you do some practice, you persevere, and pretty soon, you've got a new skill. That's what people need that. I am creative. I can learn new things. If we give that to people, then yeah, we can problem solve, change careers. Do whatever. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that that is really cool. One of the things I like to talk to my moms about on this show is the concept of mum guilt. Do you sort of find or talk about yourself, but also want to talk about people that you work with? Is that something that sort of holds people back creatively mums, in particular, that they feel like when they've got to do something, when they've got to paint or they've got to create, it's at the expense of their children so they feel guilty about doing it? I think it can be there. I think we're experts at coming up with guilt over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living? Right? Have I done enough? Am I enough? And just recognizing that's part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason. Creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it. It's not even just internal, it's something outside of ourselves. And recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. I mean, the challenge is that our time is narrow, as moms, yeah, even when our kids are grown, you know, we're an important part of the family. And so often, the time we thought we'd set aside gets interrupted or changed or, but just knowing that when we think well, about creativity, when we think well about boundaries, when we think well, about being primarily responsible for ourselves, putting on our oxygen mask, before we help someone else, that's just a healthy way to live, then I think, I encourage the women that I work with, to make space for their creativity in three ways, some time, a place, and a process. And if you need to go to the dentist or the doctor, you make time you make an appointment, and understanding your creativity is healthy, it's healthy for you tell the kids to follow and watch the way that you're choosing to live. So making some time and last is going to look different, if you've got littles if you've got school aged kids, and you're working as well. But whatever it is, even if it's just five or 10 minutes, having a few sessions a week, in your diary, then your creative time, I worked with a businesswoman who was very time poor as a mum. And we built her a sketchbook that she could take on the train. Yeah, we built a plan, build a bunch of reference material and some training. So she could whip out a sketchbook and have a few minutes to draw on the train, whatever it looks like, if you can make some time learn a process, it's just gonna really help and to have a place to do it, her place was in a sketchbook on the train, which meant she had to have a little pencil bag that worked. And two, she could use without, you know, jabbing the person next to her. But if you you might have some space in your house, it might not be a whole room. But it might be a container with your art supplies. So you can just pull it out on the table and get started, whatever is gonna work for the life stage that you're in. It might be really, really simple. Yeah. And I think that's a really important point. Because I think it can be daunting for anyone, when they decide they're going to take up a new a new art or new craft or return to it, where it's like, oh, but I need all this space, or I need all this time, I need to have a room for it. And, you know, that can be really overwhelming and a real barrier. But like you're saying, it's about thinking maybe thinking outside of that, that box that you've you've put that into thinking outside of that and saying, you know, I love that example, you know, doing it on the train on the commute? Like, I've never thought of that. I mean, I don't have that in my life. So that's not something I ever thought of. But yeah, that's just it's so refreshing to think like that, that it's not limiting. And it's not. It doesn't have to be the way that you might have thought it had to be. That's right. And when you take stock of how much time do I really have? Am I a morning person or a night person? Where are those little pockets and being realistic about how big they are? I call that loving your limits? Yeah, right, and recognizing what they are because actually, I think it can really help you focus if your limit if you have a time and space limit that might influence the medium that you choose, you might stick to drawing, or you might choose watercolor over oils. And if you're really limited space wise that might affect the size that you choose to work. So as you're loving your limits and working it out, you're finding focus and finding your style finding your way I know an artist who paints gorgeous portraits, but she will just do the eye sometimes, and she'll paint it on a silver spoon. Oh wow. Or in a little teeny weeny box beautiful little box flip open the lid and put a tiny little scene inside. Oh, really mind blowingly creative stuff. So sometimes loving your limits can help you find a way that's really unique. Yeah I've had to say that's incredibly unique, isn't it? And then that I guess that you use that as part of your business that you have got this uniqueness. And you and you build on that. Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I think it's a lot of it's about, you know, changing, long held beliefs about what it means to be an artist or be a creative. Right, right, from the very basic of, like you said, finding out what you actually enjoy. Like, I'm a singer, and there's no way that I would go through, like you said, sing all these different styles when I know, the style that I love, and what I like to sing or write about, you know, if someone said to me, you know, write, write about whatever I'd go, well, that's, that doesn't resonate with me. And I guess it's the same with your painting. It's in the medium that you want to work with. And also this, like you said, the thing you're interested in painting? Yes, that's gonna change so much for everybody's No, it really is. And I think when we start there, what do I like? What am I like, as well? Where do I live? What's my personality? What drives me crazy? What colors do I love? What colors do I hate? That when you just look at yourself, you know yourself pretty well. Even if you haven't been paying attention, if you stop paying attention, you know yourself, you're standing there instead of what's the right way to do this. Because our fear and insecurity can make us want to learn right so that other people won't see that we don't know what we're doing. If we can get out of that mode and get into who am i What do I like? That's a much more helpful pathway, I think. Yeah, and I think too, social media is really good at showing us the best of everybody, you know, like, it's a very curated environment where people aren't going to show you the painting that that they painted over because they didn't like it. You know, you you're comparing your starting point to someone else's finishing point. And that can be really daunting as well. It really can. Yeah, and I think that whatever that opposition is to creativity, the criticizing voices that come up, it can be quite surprising. And just recognizing that's part of it. And I tell people collect as many affirmations as you can, you're going to need them. Telling yourself those kind things that yeah, don't don't compare the end of their story with the beginning of your story. And everybody's got out. They're not showing you. Yeah, that's an important thing to remember, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Do you just don't affirmations is one of my favorite ones. There's a friend of mine, who's a watercolor artist. And I did a course with her and her thing was art has no rules. And she put that on her. Like the packaging that the the box with all the art supplies in Julia reader, if you're listening, thank you. So I've got that has no rules on my little backboard where I paint, because that was my biggest thing. Like I've never been a painter, because I didn't know how to do it. And I thought that you had to know how to do something. Right before you could do it. Like I didn't do it in high school. I've never really done much with it. But the more I spoke to moms, on this podcast, I realized that art can be absolutely anything and done in any way. And that was my, just my lack of understanding and my own insecurities holding me back. So now I just love fluffing around painting. It's just so enjoyable. And it's another thing that I've added into my sort of creative, like care taking care of myself. It's been amazing. Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it to just have those things that are holding us back knocked out of the way and it can be such a self healing thing. My second daughter is on the autism spectrum and has a truckload of health challenges. And it was very stressful, particularly when she was younger. And just being able to go somewhere and go into another space and paint for a while was such a healing thing. And that the whole thing about art not having rules, there isn't one right way to do it. I would add to that to that. If if you find the style, the look the kind of art that you like, and you borrow into learning how to make that kind of art, you might find that there are actually some rules or principles that help you. Yeah, which is the flip side of the freedom and there isn't one way to do it. There aren't rules you can it can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah, if you're drawn towards detail and realism and beauty. That's okay, too. That's a wonderful thing. And there are a whole lot of wisdom learning training rules if you like That kind of sift that journey that cannot limit your creativity but actually give Yes. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like that if you want to do it a particular way, there's going to be some skills that are going to be really useful for you to be able to produce what you want to produce, I suppose. Yeah, so yeah, that's thing, isn't it. And I feel like that with music too. Like, there's so many. This, you know, a billion ways you could write a song and, and it's so freeing to see people do do things. But then within that, there's still you know, the notes on the scale, they never changed. You know, those basic things about rhythm and things like that. So you've got that sort of guideline within it. But then within that you can do whatever you want. I suppose I said, diving into it, knowing the style of music you like, learning from masters within that particular style or genre of music. When they give you a tip, try it like this, or there's this kind of pattern, or, you know, if you jump off from here, or use this kind of key for this kind of, it's so exciting, isn't it to get those tools from someone, you just think oh, my goodness, you can do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Exciting. You're listening to the art of being a man podcast with Alison Newman. So just coming back to mum guilt, your own personal sort of thoughts on that? Well, for me, it probably one area like it really came up was around, not knowing what I was dealing with, with my daughter Mikayla and her health challenges I knew before I brought her home from hospital, something was going on. I called the doctors in mentioned a couple of things, and they couldn't tell me what it was. So we did a round of specialists for a long time, and they couldn't tell me anything that just take a home lover, she'll be fine. And I knew there was more to it than that. And it wasn't until she was eight, that my mom who knew this journey I was on of trying to figure out what's going on with this kid because it's we're not. This is not just normal childhood milestones. Something's happening here. Yeah. And I can't figure it out. And she she went back to teaching and she asked a fellow teacher, I know this kid, these are those symptoms are what, what, what does it sound like to you. And that was the first time we heard about autism or Asperger's Syndrome. So I started reading, did my thing, borrow books from the library, like I'd done laying to paint. And I just sat there reading the Oasis guide to autism and Asperger's in my room, and the tears just started running down my face, because I realized this is my kid, somebody has just described to me what's going on in the inside. And I had no idea. And I could just see all the things I could have done differently, or the things I've been doing wrong. And just realize what this kid had been dealing with. I was clueless about. I knew something but it didn't know what it was. And it was both, you know, you feel the guilt that why didn't I figure it out before? Or, but I could have helped. And what can you do? You can't do anything but go on and be grateful that now you know, and do the best you can to love and measure can not as you can't Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think as moms we're really good at beating ourselves up over things that we could do absolutely nothing about things that are out of our control. Yeah, we've got to sort of make make it feel good for everybody. And then when it doesn't, it's it's our fault, even if it's not our fault. Yeah, and then when we do blow it plenty of times you know, we get snapping get your into ball, we get bossy we get whatever unfair. And I think just being honest with our kids, especially as they get older and just being able to say I'm sorry, I was really cranky. Or I'm sorry that really wasn't fair. I think that just goes a long way to because the fact is we're never gonna be perfect anything's we're here. We're humans. Yes, we're honest. We can we're fatally flawed. So then going to another topic I'd love to talk about is the concept of identity about how the concept of your own identity changed. When you did become a mum, did you go through sort of a shift? I mean, I know you were in a really different place in the world, like do you graphically in a different sort of area, but yeah, how did you sort of? How did you feel about that whole process of that change? I really wanted to be a mum, I was really keen to be a mum, I, I'd been married nearly four years when my first daughter arrived. And my whole life was so extremely different. We moved into this mud village when I was eight months pregnant. So oh, you know, I was not just adjusting to motherhood, I was adjusting to a completely different existence, different language, different everything. So it and because that happened for me young, because I went overseas when I did I met Mike when I did. When he thought I was 24. I thought he was 24. Turns out, there's a 10 year age gap. I ended up being a teenage bride and uh, you know, people, mother, yes. But when we came back to Australia, and I had the two girls and then homeschooling them for a while, I felt like it was really, in my late later 20s and 30s that I started to figure out. So who am I? I can my wife and I'm a mom, and I've, you know, been overseas and done these things. But what am I really like? Yeah, because I'm married to a young and went overseas into an extreme situation. So Young, I didn't even really have those late teens 20s of figuring out who you are, as an adult being a single person, I was already making a life with another person, which was hugely transformative as it is when two opposites try and make a life together. But yeah, I think that discovering who I am, came later. And that's one of the things I love about getting older, I'll be 50 this year. And I love that I don't love the fact that my body is changing, my skin's getting all my hairs. But I do, I do love the internal change of just being so much more confident in who I am having had more life experiences and knowing I just know myself better. I know, my strengths and my weaknesses, and some of those weird limiting messages. I've learned other things that are true that have helped. So I like that side of identity as you get older of just knowing yourself better. And I think it's just always changing. You know, I knew I wanted to learn to paint. I thought teaching was the way to build more of a painting life. And it's reminded me that actually, I'm a teacher at heart. And I love that as much or more than the creative process itself. So for me helping artists step into their full art life, their career as an artist entrepreneur, that is so fulfilling for me that I'm willing to put limits on my own painting to pursue that journey, because I can't do everything I'd love to be and do everything. But there's not enough hours in the day are there? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? But I think what you said there about enjoying getting older and coming to these realizations, I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to. It's something I certainly can relate to, like I'm about to be probably 44 later this year. And you know, the best times mentally, you know, you go through this, all these things as a youngster about all this doubt. And what do people think of me and all this judgment, and you get to a point in your life where you just go, ah, none of that matters, who gives a toss, you know, and I joked with a guest recently, like, everyone should think like a 40 year old woman because you, you just you don't care anymore. You know, you've got the things in your life that are important, the things that matter, you've worked out yourself. And you're like, No, everything else can just go by the wayside. So it's incredibly liberating time of life. And I think you get over the shock of, oh my gosh, like, I thought, I thought youth would last longer. This aging thing that used to happen to other people, it's happening to me, there's kind of grief about that, or at least there was for me, and getting over that and realizing ah, actually, the opportunity in the next stage of my life is actually even richer because my baby making user behind me even much I mean for me I started young so yay, I've got adults now not nobody's in school anymore. And I'm, I'm free to move on to enjoying all those things I've learned about myself now in a different way in this part of my life, and I really like that. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to you talking about like grieving changes. When I had to get glasses. It was like, when I finally said I have to get glasses it was just like this. No getting like this. The worst thing in the world that could possibly happen to anybody. You know. It's so self referred. Isn't it? passes on in the store. I was is my first year of classes to literally the tears welled up in my eyes because I look like an old lady to myself. Yeah, yeah, because that's the thing, we have these concepts of what it means to be old and get old. And for me glasses was one of those things. So then when I, when I got my glasses, and I put them on, and I actually they look nice, like, they don't look like my grandmother's glasses, you know, they were never going to, you know, but that's what I had in my head. And then I first time I wore them to work, I was really nervous that because I hadn't worked with children for nine years in childcare, and I was thinking all the kids are going to be trying to pull them off, and there'll be like, making a big deal. And I wore them for probably 20 minutes before any of the children said anything I could tell they were looking, but one of them come up, they said, our you've got glasses on. And I was like, Yeah, I do. And that was it. You know, so my own, you know, worries about how they'd be received. You was nothing to worry about, you know, we build all this stuff, we build these stories in our minds of what's gonna happen in life. Well, I do certainly mean that it doesn't come true. And instead of going, Oh, well, that was nice. I don't have to worry so much anymore. We're finding things that we oh gosh, yeah. I put that down a lot of it to being a Cancerian I think YTD for about everything. You talked about that your your art take second place to your other sort of work that you're doing. But that is still your creative work, isn't it like it's not as though your own, the physical act of creating might not be there as much, but what you've created and what you're sharing is a massive part of it. That's really important to you, isn't it to be really important to me? Yes, yeah. And I actually love the whole creative process of crafting a message, and learning how to communicate that through social media, through my website, through an email list. Communicating and cultivating that audience, I run a Facebook group for artists called the confident artist. And so helping that community in their creativity, and then stepping into sharing their art with the world, designing the training materials, you know, and the graphics and all of that, that whole process of that teaching process of taking knowledge and experience and questions, and just shared experience. And communicating that with others. That's a really important creative process for me. And part of drawing and painting is that decision, fatigue is a big part, we're making so many decisions about the work all the way along, whether it's designing the idea in the first place, how we're going to compose the composition, how we're going to mix the colors, how we're going to actually create those clouds, or render those leaves, what painting needs next, which particular method I'm going to use to solve that particular problem, it can leave you mentally drained. So in a season, I've just learned I have to have seasons. And if, if I'm in a season of making a body of work, it may not be the same season where I can be really promoting a coaching program like the profitable artist. And that's a hard and costly choice. But sometimes that just has to happen, you have to mind using my creativity in this area. So it might not like I tell my students that really you need about a 5050 balance between making your creative work and marketing your creative work. And that can feel shocking in the beginning. But it also doesn't mean that you divide up every day, with a 5050, half to each, you have to find your own rhythm, it might work for you to make in the morning, market in the afternoon. But it might also mean that you have a week where you paint, and then you have a week where you do the business side of things. It just depends on what works better for you. And you might find it works different in different seasons. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because you can sometimes get on a real roll. We all the ideas are coming. And you don't want to sort of have to put a timer on that and say, Oh, no, no, can't do that. Now, you can let that come and let that happen. Because then there's always times when you're not feeling like that. So that's the time is when you can do the practical work and, you know, that other side of things. That's, that's really important too. So yeah, I mean, that's the thing. We things always ebb and flow, don't they? No one can be everything all the time at the same level. You know, that's just it's just the nature of things, and especially being the nature of women to Kate Northrup. I wrote a book called, do less more, I think it's called. And in there, she talks about the fact that as women, we're on a 28 day cycle, whereas men are on a 24 hour cycle. And in some ways, we know all about that. But in other words, we don't know much about that. How often do we expect ourselves to be on a 24 hour work cycle. And we forget the fact that our energy ebbs and flows in really different ways that she's done a great job of mapping, the kinds of energy we have at different stages, in even if we're not actually cycling, like we were, when we were younger, even if you're at that life stage, you still have these rhythms of energy, rest, being more extroverted and more introverted. And that is a really helpful perspective, I think, to end to get to know yourself, when you're in that, wow, the ideas are just coming. Capture them go with it. And then when you're in that quiet, I'm just doing the work mode, I'm smashing it out. Or you're in the extroverted making connection space, or just that, who I need to refill the well. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And that's the thing, too, I think because, you know, as we're, there's different times in our life when we're so conscious of where we are in our cycle. And then there's other times in life where we just, it's not even on our radar. So and that's the thing to get back in touch with what, where we're at and what we feel at that time, and how that affects our creativity. And, yeah, I think that's a really important thing to think about. Because sometimes just sneaking away for power nap, is actually going to be more productive in the long run, than just trying to push through. Yeah, that's so important. I think there's this, there's been this massive, sort of focus on, I don't know what they call it like the, you've got to be productive all the time. You're smashing out things. And you've got the, I can't remember what they used to be this hashtag about? I don't know, you get where I'm coming from that hustle culture? Sort of Yeah. And you've just, it's almost like wrist was something that you'd give yourself as a reward, not as something that is part of just your, your regular life, I suppose. And, yeah, I feel like it's changing is definitely I mean, certainly the people that I follow, there's this idea that we, the old self care Sundays, that the hashtag still gets around, but it's a night, you can be mindful of that any time of the day. And like you said, if you feel like you need a nap, because that's going to make you more productive later, then do it, you know? And that comes down to judgment to be that, you know, how are you sleeping in the middle of the day? You know, aren't you supposed to be doing something, you know, all those little voices from a naive, maybe capitalist or a patriarchal sort of society come into our head and say, Yeah, what do you do in that for? Yeah, and not recognizing that creativity doesn't like to be on 24/7. And you've actually probably only got about four hours max, of that really intense work, new work, creative work in you. And if you do any more, in a day of that kind of work, you're probably going to be in creative debt the next day, so mixing it up with admin, housework, whatever, without breaking concentration, but just knowing your limits, learning to feel where you're at, is this the time to go with the flow, this is the time to say, Okay, that's enough. And also, brain science is fabulous in this recognizing there are different ways our brain works different aspects of our brain for different tasks. And when we stop, and go away and do something different, like take a walk, take a shower, take a nap, chop vegetables, back in your floor, your brain flips into this different zone. And when it's in that zone, it's almost like neutral. Yeah, what it does is it starts making connections between all of these completely different areas in your brain, ideas, thoughts, memories, experiences, and it starts making solutions that are completely unique. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Like I find, it's almost like I think did Einstein call it the theta state or the theta state? It's something to do with when your brains at rest. And it doesn't have to be actual meditation doesn't have to be laying down meditating. But it's like you're doing a repetitive or, I don't wanna say mindless because, but you're basically chopping vegetables when you said that. It's like you're doing a repetitive thing and your body goes into like muscle memory, and it just does it. Yeah. And then that gives your mind the time to, like you said, makes the connection and you're not conscious of it. It's not a thing that you're thinking, necessarily, but like the shower, going in the shower and walking are the two biggest times I get ideas. It's like you're just open and stuff just comes in and it's just amazing. I quickly get out of the shower and just record things on my phone or exactly I need a whiteboard in the shower. But it's true, isn't it like you need you need the ebbs and flows and your body has to have time and your mind has to have time to process things and then get you ready for the next load of whatever you're doing. And as a mom, if you can embrace that, then that it just works, doesn't it because we spend a heck of a lot of time, and vegetables and cleaning things and driving and. And we need to exercise you know, just to keep ourselves together. And walking is such a great way to do that. Those things can be part of our life. And when we realize I'm not beating myself up while I'm doing those things about all the things I haven't done yet. I'm relaxing and recognizing this is a really powerful part of the rhythm. And if I'm open, I'm excited to see what floats into my head. Potentially while I'm chopping broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That is so awesome. So I, I do a lot of yoga. And it's that the best stuff is like you do all your asanas and do all the movement, do some breathing. And then you have a nice meditation and you have a heavy Shavasana. And it's like, okay, what can you give me now like, you know, you're so open, and you're so relaxed, and your body's in that, that state, and then you can just you just get the best ideas, but I do anyway, I just love it. I'm not a yoga practitioner at all. But I do like silent meditation before the just what I should say, I don't necessarily love the doing of it. But I love the effect of it and learning that just even 10 minutes of silence just ignoring the chatter that my mind comes up with. Actively just letting it go that Yeah, yeah, it does put you in an amazing place to think clearly and be more energized, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. I'd always get up from my shavasana and my yoga teacher, she'd be like, Okay, what if he got first this time, like, because it was become this joke that I just be like, Oh, guess what, I just thought of what some I just came up with like, it was just, yeah, I'll just. If there are people in your audience who are wanting to learn to draw paint, dive into that part of their creativity, then come Come find me, the confident artists Facebook group, there's a lot of people in there who are enjoying their creativity together at all different levels. And I have a blog on my website that's got some really helpful tools and tips for enjoying your creativity, learning to draw and paint. And if you already painting and drawing and you're thinking, Can I do this? Could I really make money doing something I love? How do I even start selling art, then head to my website, Fiona valentine.com, I've got a free guide on how to start selling your art that talks about how to get clarity, and how this works, how to think about your pricing. And there's a lot of other resources there on my website, you can find out about the coaching program, the profitable artist method. And if you've got questions, just let me know, there's a button where you can hop on a free call, and we can talk about your creative journey and how you can get some support are fantastic. Yep. So I was gonna ask you, what's the best way to go ahead and get in touch but you've just answered that for me beautifully. Thank you. And also on your website, you've got some information on Oh, yes, innovation workshop. You'll see that in the tabs on my website, there's a tab for business school that talks about the profitable artists method. And it's another tab that says the art of innovation workshop. And that's where companies or you know, collection of people who want to get together and do a two hour online zoom workshop to learn how to draw so that you can boost your creative potential. And you can use it like an exercise taking your brain to the gym. So yeah, you'll find all that information there too. Thank you so much for coming on today. I've really enjoyed talking with you is raised some points that I've sort of lost along the way somewhere, you know, especially that that you know, keeping in touch with your emotions and your cycle and that kind of stuff. So yeah, really valuable to have you here and thank you so much for giving me your time today. Thank you so fun to talk with you and your music is beautiful, Allison. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Oh, do you have to keep an ear out for the next year when which will hopefully be the end of the it's been a slow process, but I don't mind that. It just happens when it happens and amongst everybody else. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Steve Davis Father's Day Ep - marketing consultant, comedian, educator + podcaster S2 Ep62 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts The second of my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2022 features Steve Davis, a marketing consultant, educator, comedian, theatre reviewer + podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia, and a dad of 2 girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio. He recalls being 12 years old listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom and deciding then + there he was going to be a radio announcer. This morphed into journalism + Steve spent countless years in radio newsrooms in Adelaide. After being in the newsroom on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11th , + witnessing the way the journalism was used to fuel fear + increase ratings in the weeks following, Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, Talked About Marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde: There's only one thing worse than being talked about and that's not being talked about. In 2013 Steve was looking for a creative outlet and started The Adelaide Show Podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. The podcast proudly holds the title of Silver for Best Interview Podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours Steve does character-based stand up comedy as his two alter egos: Professor Sebastian Longsword from The MBA School of MBA Credentials, and Social Sales Whisperer, Darren Hill. Both have websites + linkedin profiles, + get booked to MC events + deliver talks. Steve has appeared on the reality tv series Is This Thing On? reflecting on his experience in the School of Hard Knock Knocks comedy school. Steve is driven by curiosity and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat, whether that's in a studio or around a dinner table. Today we enjoy a really fun, lively, and at times quite serious chat covering journalistic integrity, raising girls and the significance and authenticness of including children in your art and creativity. **This episode contains discussion around a near death accident + still birth** Explore Steve's worlds : Talked About Marketing / The Adelaide Show Podcast / Professor Longsword / Darren Hill Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2023 Steve Davis is a marketing consultant, educator and trainer, comedian, theatre reviewer and podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia and is a dad of two girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio from a young age. He recalls being 12 years old and listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom at home and deciding then in there, he was going to be a radio announcer this morphed into journalism and Steve spent countless years in newsrooms across Adelaide radio. After a negative experience in the newsroom in Adelaide on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11. And the weeks following Steve witnessing the way journalism was used to fuel fear and increase ratings. Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, talked about marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde, there's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about. In 2013, Steve was looking for a creative outlet, and he started the Adelaide Show podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. His podcast holds the title of silver for best interview podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards of 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours, Steve does character based stand up comedy, as he's to alter egos. Professor Sebastian long sword from the MBA school of MBA credentials, and social sales whisperer, Darren Hill, hashtag D H. Both have a website and LinkedIn profiles, and they get booked to emcee events and deliver talks. Steve has also appeared in a reality TV series, based on his experience in the school of hard knocks knocks comedy school called hits this thing on. Steve is driven by curiosity, and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat. Whether that's in the studio or around the dinner table. Steve certainly inhabits a strange world and he wouldn't have it any other way. He is a self proclaimed microphone tart and enjoys being behind the microphone. Today we enjoy a really fun and lively but at times quite serious chat, covering journalism, integrity, raising girls, and the significance and authenticity of including your children in your art and creativity. This episode contains discussions around a near death accident and stillbirth. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you health professionals, or from resources online. You can find a list of international resources that I've compiled on the podcast landing page Alison newman.net/podcast music you'll hear on today's episode is from LM Joe, which is my ambient and new age music trio comprising of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode thank you so much for coming on stage. It's a real pleasure to have you here on a special Father's Day episode. I'm a little bit daunted, to be honest, but I'm glad to have the chance to chat with you. Lovely. So we have met before you know full disclosure for the audience. I've met you before and I've I'm a fan of your podcast and you've been generous enough to include some of my music on your podcast in the past. So I'll just say that first. So if we talk about things and people go, I don't know what that means. You know, just put that out there but so for those I don't know what you do. Steve, can you share? What, what you spend your days doing? All right. Let's do the day part of my day that's been running my business, which is called talked about marketing, which is a little marketing consultancy. There's about five of us who hover in that orbit, primarily working with small business. And it's named after a very famous quote from Oscar Wilde, who's my literary hero, which said, there's only one thing worse than being talked about. And that's not being talked about. And when I got tipped out of a nest as in before, and had to start my own business, it just hit me in one bit that Oscar Wilde has been my totem, if you like, throughout my life, and it was just perfect to call that. So that's what I do throughout the day. And, you know, that takes me all over the place. At nighttime, it's a little bit mixed up. So I do the Adelaide Show podcast. As my, one of my little, I consider it a little community gift. I love doing it. I love sharing stories that are often heard. But then I also have ventured into the realm of stand up comedy. We might get to how that happened later. But in that I have since evolved to have two different characters. Professor Sebastien long sword who's a doddering old MBA professor. And Darrin Hill, who is a sleek, they're not sleazy, he is a he just thinks he's cooler than he is. He's a social media sales whisperer. And the sales whisperer his his big thing is hashtag D H. Which he is completely unaware of the dual meanings of that they just thinks it's his initials, but it's emblematic of how he is. Anyway. That's what I do in the evenings. Primarily, they're the main things. And look, I'd also do theater reviews. So I suppose that falls under the artistic banner, as well, reviewing Theater, which I've done for both 30 years now. Yeah. And are you still doing your training where you, you teach social media and things like that? That's right. That's part of my day job. Okay, Emily read recently over in the wonderful, far western South Australian town of Sedona doing that last week, which is about as far away from the side of South Australia that you're on? Yeah, that you could possibly get to. So, no, I'm still doing a lot of that. Oh, great, because that's how you and I first met, and when I came to one of your trainings, which was awesome. I told my dad I had to do it for for his work, but really, I was doing it for my own selfish proceeds. Yes, I remember the rationale. Yeah. And I should mention to you are from South Australia, you're in Adelaide. Have you always been living in South Australia? For most of my life, except when I turned 25. My girlfriend at the time had gone traveling Europe to find herself. And so that was it. Ball of tears, things are over. And then about 18 months later, she says that I've just discovered Hungary. I think you'd love it. So I went over and stayed for a week. There's my goodness, the stories from that week. We fit in Budapest, Vienna, and Venice. I was flying back. Sorry. We were flying back on how to fly back on New Year's Eve on whatever that year was 1991 and had to catch a train from Venice into Vienna. I booked a hotel room at the Vienna Hilton. The only place left was 350 bucks. When we got their. They said sorry, we had to let your room to someone else. So this is before mobile phones and all that sort of stuff. So what were you doing? She said there is an option. Would you mind if we put you in the Presidential Suite on the 18th floor for no extra charge? Ah. Which was fascinating. But of course when you were in that room, your whole half of the top of the Vienna Hilton on New Year's Eve, you use room service, so it ended up costing 550 bucks, but it was worth it. Anyway. So I ended up came back gave notice. I had been working at the one radio station for seven and a half years gave notice and went back a month later with a one way ticket and lived in Budapest for two years. So apart from that I have lived in South Australia. I am sorry, I just wanted to footnote my references to living in Budapest happen often it just pops up in life it shouldn't it's sad. You think there'll be some other anchor in my life, but I've got a dear listener who's listened to the Adelaide show from day one. His name is Alexis Catalina and he has a drinking game. Any episode where I may In Budapest or living in Hungary that's a really well, hello, you listening? Yes. Thanks for Yeah, one for me, do you? So going back to your beginnings, how did you first get involved? Like you're pretty you said you were you were doing something previous to starting your own business. Was that sort of in the same area? Like we always involved in this sort of, sort of area? No, it was radio. And I remember being 12 years old, sitting on my bed at home listening to five ad, which was the hot station at the time on a little red transistor radio. And whoever was on I think it was Matt Ford, but I can't remember they did a crossfade. From Deep Purple's Smoke on the Water to races, I think was racy or smoke is Oh, Carol. Yeah. You couldn't think of the worst two songs to put one after the other one is heavy grands, bluesy grant, and the other one is pop. And at that moment, I just looked up in the air and said, This is what I'm going to do. I want to be a radio announcer. And so at that point, I just fixed my head and no one could talk me out of it. I remember in high school, towards the end with the career vocations, the teachers are saying, Look, you're doing well. You shouldn't be you know, no. Radio, there's no you got it. So I had to choose down three careers. And I thought back of this, so I put down president of USA is option number one. I put down I think it was NASA astronaut number two, and radio announcer number three is at their jet. Show and I did the 12 just to fill in the time because I thought no one's going to hire a 15 year old Pimply kid as a radio announcer. And after I did a radio school course with Vaughn Harvey, the late great phone Harvey whose voice still echoes around the universe today he had one of those voices that was like, hello, I'm Warren Harvey. This is the Harvey Cardwell report. He was a very wonderful man that about three foot high like a beard of GNOME, but he was amazing. Ah, there's a there's a possibly legally questionable story that's fun to tell that involves him in my time in Hungary, which are migratory. But long story short 18 months out of school doing part time jobs. He said, Steve five and you at Mary bridge have contacted me there's a job coming up. Can you go to an interview on Sunday morning. And this now of people who don't know I was in Adelaide, Mary bridges a country town about 50 minutes away. I had no idea how far away it was. For me it was the country. So that's like three hours minimum. So I got a good mate to meet me and off. We went at 6am to go to this 10 o'clock appointment. On a Sunday, we had packed an esky. We're talking 1985 Here, packed an esky we had we end at 6:50am It's Welcome to Murray Bridge. And so we had to kill time. Anyway, I went in, did the interview at 10 and came out and said I'm on air at three o'clock this afternoon. So anyway, that started my role there. And I worked there for seven and a half years in radio. And then that turned into journalism. I mean, the radio got work in Budapest as well. I started doing some talkback in Adelaide. And this all this journalism and radio came to a head when I was on air in Adelaide when 911 happened. I was in the newsroom at mix one Oh 2.3 And five DN. When that existed, there was fog of war or whatever 5g and morphed into. And I was the one who broke the news that that would happen. And then the news director caught everyone in. And our job for the next week was to find every link we could between 911 and South Australian Adelaide to keep people on edge and glued to their radios. And I just said nah, nah, I have a higher bar for journalism. The fourth estate I think It's one of the most crucial things on this planet. And Its job is to be the guard dog of, of truth, you know, keep the lies out. And within a week I quit. And a person that I knew, said, look, I've got a marketing company. And because I also did photography needed to start with that and some writing, and I switched over to marketing where I was for 19 odd years, and then started talking about marketing after that, do you? Please tell me to shorten my answers? Okay, that's a that's a that was actually very concise answer. That was really good. And honestly, talk as much as you like, this is your this is your show, stave. Take away, you know, where you want to. It's interesting, you talk there about that. It was almost like they were they were turning the experience of 911 into like fodder, though. It was, you know, to try and diminish it in some way just to keep it entertaining and keep people listening. Does that I'm kind of looking for a link here. You talking about things? Like journalism is like the gatekeeper. Do you find these days, the amount of misinformation and disinformation and that sort of beating things up? And clickbait? Was that sort of, I guess, the start of that kind of thing? What look, I think that I had the pleasure of interviewing Peter gresty. Late last year, he's an Australian journalist who was wrongly imprisoned on trumped up charges in Egypt and was in jail for 400 days. And may I, I can't believe he agreed to be on the show. And we had a good deep warts and all chat about journalism, that and look, here's my position. That was horrible. We were still I think, the Gulf War period, or the 80s, when news started moving towards the 24 hour news cycle, which at the time, I would tell anyone who would listen that this is wrong. When you increase the volume of news you need, you have to reach lower into the barrel to fill it. And that's not good. And there's so there's that. And of course, there's a thing which the BBC has tried to stamp out recently called false equivalency, where if you've got, say, a scientist being interviewed about something, and there's someone who just has this random idea, yeah, false equivalency means you give 50% of time to the scientist and 50% of time to someone who's got no evidence to back up what they say. And so they have luckily moved to follow, I think Bertrand Russell, great English philosopher from the early 20th century, who said, you defer to an expert when they're talking about their field of expertise, but not if they veer from that. And so that sort of mixed up into I believe, we have this inclination this day and age to think we know everything. And so if something an expert is saying doesn't jive with how we see the world, we just dismiss them and not honor, the 1000 or 10,000 hours they've spent, like going through in depth. And here's the thing, there's a wonderful thing that since I discovered it early in sort of mid 2000s, this thing called the Dunning Kruger effect. It's helped me have a compass and the Dunning Kruger effect, in short, says, This was based on research over many years. When you know little about a subject, you instantly think you're an instant expert. You have no qualms. Do you have confidence to go forth? When you are actually a deep expert? They're the people who say, Well, it depends. And they understand nuance, and they know there's more to know, which works against the authority sometimes of the experts, because if they're being honest, I'd say this is within a certain probability what we think which allows others to nibble at them. Yeah, that's on one side. But there's another thing with journalism today that that I hear people say, oh, there's a conspiracy in journalism, to do things on purpose to us. And I am not a conspiracy. I'm not wired for conspiracy part. Because trying to organize people doing something together in the daylight is hard enough and never works. To think people can do it clandestine ly. So I don't think there's any grand plan in using anything to do with me. But what I do think is the numbers because Google and Facebook have robbed journalism, institutions of all their income from classified ads. They don't have the same resources, they got less people. And the only way they can survive is to, as you said, earlier, Allison, get the clickbait. So they've got to sex up their stories. And sadly, the algorithms that Facebook and YouTube use, put engagement above everything else. And the engagement that gets the most attention is typically anger and hatred. And so we've trapped ourselves into a corner, where the stomach that a proper editor has to allow a journalist to go deep and follow something through is shortchanged. Because if they allow that, and they don't have the clickbait stuff going, they don't have income to be here tomorrow. So it's messy. And there are good people out there in journalism, but the system is off funding is broken. And I would love as I would love the model that France uses to come into play where the government actually funds a certain percentage of journalists, they don't have any editorial control. But they say to the organization here, you've got these people, let them do good journalism. And I think that would make me much warmer towards the Fourth Estate these days, because it would give it breathing space to deliver stuff that sometimes I don't like, I don't care, I have to change my opinion, when new facts come to the table to be challenged. And you think about things a different way. That one sort of unwound a bit. But it isn't black and white. To me. It is flawed. It's a human enterprise. And clickbait layout just doesn't help. Sorry, I'll just finish on this one. I did an interview with Natalia boo Jenko, a couple of weeks ago, she's a Ukrainian woman who has been living in Adelaide for many years. And we did a deep dive on what's happening in Ukraine, because she's got 10 cousins still living there. And she just the absolute horror, of actual genocide that's been meted out by Russia is not enough at all at once, to get the Rupert Murdoch type organizations to continue working hard to make us and keep us interested. And so you get a celebrity who throws her top off, and that will take all the focus, because that's fine. And that gets the clicks or Tommy Lee, you know, he'll expose himself. And so that gets all the oxygen. And there are people, little kids, that the one point something million Ukrainians have been pushed to the far east of Russia, separated, it's just horrible. It really is bleak. But we don't have the appetite because they need the clickbait. And anyway, so I hope one day, and there are avenues where it is restoring itself. But yeah, it's bleak. But it's not all out to get us. That's the thing. It's just, it's just human. It's a human enterprise. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned Ukraine, because I know, like I listened to a lot of ABC and BBC Radio. And because the BBC World Service is, you know, the 24 Hour News Service. So I often leave that on while I'm asleep, you know, and then I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and I'll be like, Oh, what are they talking about? And so you do get the updates on Ukraine, but you have to almost look for, you know, it's not there. It's not the front page. It's not the first thing that comes up on the the news websites, which is it's disgraceful because the like you said, there is so much horror going on over there. And it's like, we've just blinded ourselves to have gone Oh, yeah, that happened. What was that February our year. Now, that's not happening now. You know. And there's a few people that I follow on Instagram who are constantly sharing updates and saying, This is still happening, you know, it's, we cannot forget about it, you know, we cannot just let it go and just makes me so uncomfortable that we are not, you know, banging the doors down and saying, This has to stop. This has to change because we've just, you know, Tommy Lee does his thing and we'll go oh, let's get distracted by that. You know, it's it's appalling. It's horrible. And the thing that wraps all this up is the world The Unbearable Lightness of Being, which is the title of a magnificent book by Vaclav Havel. And it's amazing movie. I'm going to watch it with friends. Again recent, soon in a couple of weeks, and that title, The Unbearable Lightness of Being, I would be happy to sit around a party a dinner table and just discuss that and teased apart for hours because our existence on this planet is light. And that lightness is unbearable, because we've got the heaviness of what's happening in Russia. And we have the light fun bits of someone doing something funny that we whom whom we know. And that's all part of it I, in the interview with Natalia, I made the comment that a little while back a few years ago, now I sort of fainted at night and fell down hit my head and discovered later that was a couple of centimeters either way, I wouldn't be here talking. And when I had to go to hospital for observation, when I came out, having been contemplating my mortal, brevity, nothing had changed in the planet, everything kept moving the buses were still gearing and you go, Ah, okay. And look, and that's how it has to be the world has to keep grinding on. And it is it is messy, are your guest recently, Lisa Sugarman, she made a point about hate, it's messy, and we just have to deal with that. So it is, and so we can't flagellate ourselves for not staying true to course, with following Ukraine. But the role of the prized role of an editor whose job has been to say, this is important, this is important, is a prized role. And I think it's an important role to play in our society. And when that is down, played, because our we need to get some sugar hits of, you know, clicks and likes, yeah, nobody is served by that. It is balanced. We can't be too hard on ourselves. But we have to try if we care about being part of this human tapestry. That's it, isn't it? It's got you've got to continue to try. And I mean, I understand you've got to have light and shade. You can't all be doom and gloom. But we can't let important things be out of our mind for too long. I don't think any but that's right, we have to survive. And we've got, you know, that thing they say on planes, where if the cabin pressure drops, put your mask on first and then help others. If we let out our oxygen be too sucked out. By being depressed by all these things over which we have little control, then we can't really help anyone. So it is a messy enterprise. That's a good analogy. That's a good way of looking at it. And that's actually a few of my mom's on the show have used that as an analogy for their own self care of looking after themselves. And then that enables them to look after their children. Because if you're if you're down, everyone is you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. Yes, I had the chance of meeting Jane Goodall through that late show many years ago. Yeah. And she's the lady who lived with apes, and we're very strident level headed conservationist. And the question I put to her was, we feel so helpless with these things, what do we do, and she said, You have to forget the big picture sometimes, and focus on what you can do on your square inch of the world and do something there, then you'll feel empowered again. And from there, as Paul Kelly sang from little things, big things grow. And that's why I was at the Ukrainian club the night before we recorded this, just to meet some of the people and support them have dinner there and pay them. And they had a room where people had donated clothes to look after some Ukrainian refugees who had come across my job quietly, the government's now stopped that there is no more invitation for Ukrainian refugees. And Natalia made the point to the trouble is, if the politicians aren't being needled by the populace, to keep it up, they can shut it down. And if the journalists aren't interested enough to keep the heat on, then the population isn't. And then the government's left off the hook. Yeah. And so it's a little sad circle there. However, there was a little thing we could do, and to be there and to support them. And that's what we could do because my family and I all went and we listened against an Italian episode in the car. We were all choking with tears at points because it is so real and heavy, but we then got to meet them and have fun and and, and engage and that's the Jane Goodall advice is very wise. So yeah, the message is we have to make our way through and look at it's not bad to look after ourselves on the way it's just getting the balance right, and we'll get it wrong. And then we correct ourselves. One last thing. Sorry. Go on. It's Allison. I love this. You are asking questions or opening up things. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People Stephen, have your mental plane. My dad had that book. I quote him all the time and I'm having a mental blank. It'll come to me in a moment. But there's a beautiful analogy that he uses, which is these huge Jumbos that fly from LA to Sydney are off course. According to him about 90 95% of the time they are off course. All that's happening it Stephen Covey, all that happens is our instruments. just nudge it back, and then nudge it back and then nudge it back. And he was saying, we have to be kind to ourselves in life, we will be off course often, but it's not a case for giving up. It's a case for just nudging back. nudging back, nudging back. Oh, I love that. Jeez, I could apply that to myself. Maybe we all can. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. I'm glad you kept on with that train of thought. Getting these little nuggets of gold All right, we're changing tack slightly. You are a father. Obviously. That's why I've got you here part of that reason. Can you share with us a little bit about your your children? Yes, I've got two daughters, AJ and Caitlin. And they're 14 and 12. AJC oldest, what can I say? They, they have, if there was a Venn diagram, between the two of them, they'd be a good bit of stuff they have in common. They both are very grounded and have a strong care ethos for others. And both can have a both are very clear. When they've decided what they want to do, they can be quite focused on that. And then you look at the bits of the Venn diagram where they're different. And AJ is this is like she should have been born in a tent. In the savanna, she is an outdoors person who loves horse riding, getting filthy, pushing herself to limit running, you know, all that sort of outdoor stuff. She talks more costly than the others, which is a little bit from her. Like grin. I think she got a lot of that from she's a little dynamo, she's short. So keep these in terms like little and doesn't give up. And just, we were at a friend's house recently at a place called bugle heart in South Australia, which is up near Renmark. Very for anyone who wants to check on a map, just inland a bit. And they have a horse, retired old racehorse big like huge horse and see that AJ hop on. And Yvette was saying, I've never seen that horse just it bought like it just it was able to trust AJ, AJ trusted it. And she said it was just magic. It was absolutely beautiful to see this pint sized little controlling this horse was just fantastic. And it was lovely. And and the other one Caitlin is more towards the reflective. She does gaming lots of talking with other people around games. And on that express, she does she's in the choir, she does drama. And she's sort of skewed that way. So they're just, you know, it's just, I love them to bits. I had the privilege recently we went to stay on a houseboat for a few days. Unfortunately, my wife couldn't make it because she was an acting head in the department she works for so and just go ahead that thrust upon us. I just needed to stay back. But it turned out to be you know, silver lining, because I got to spend just quiet downtime with them. And the thing I will remember one of the things I remember the most was the drive it was a three hour drive. And the iPhone is connected to the car sound system. And I handed it to Caitlin. I said you're the DJ. All three of us will go around and play a song but tell us why And so that whole journey I was amazed I've got great music tastes I mean, either bad for kids because I liked it or I'm just an odd but but that we all three of us said that was amazing. We learned so much. We got to hear songs we wouldn't have heard otherwise. And it was just the time just flew. Yeah, just lots of little things like that just happened throughout yeah I've got so many things, there's so many directions I could take you there after that, as I love these when I ask a question. And then you'd be the same to any journalist background like with people tell you things. And then like I'm scribbling down notes. Like, I want to know about that. I wonder about that. I love it. Be careful what you wish for. But you've already you've already got a taste. Right? We can make Part One and Part Two is gonna be like, you know, continuation challenge met. Oh, I love it. So. Okay, where will I go first? So the gills now I'm forgive me. I can't remember it might have been a J. In your recordings of your Adelaide Show podcast, here is AJ that she has a little speaking part. They both do. They both are doing okay. So Caitlin does the acknowledgement of country for beginning. But both AJ and Caitlin share the sign off at the end and AJ. So binary goes both ways. I'm gonna be random in just crazy. They call them my voiceover angels. So what made you want to include the girls in? Did they want to be a part of it? Or was it something you thought? That would be nice to have the mean? Well, they prove it's, it's, it's probably to know there'll be three strands to this. So yes, I desperately wanted them to be part of this thing. Because I was very mindful, especially when I started the Adelaide show back in 2013. That it is about 15 hours per episode. That goes into prepping it, recording it, editing it, and then promoting it. And that was a big chunk of dead time sort of taken out of the equation of the week. So none of this could have happened if Nadia, my wife hadn't understood it was you know, had to be to some degree, keep me sane. So I desperately wanted them to be part of it was one thing. Because there were a couple of times I remember when I was growing up when dad was a builder in the first part of his career, hopping in, in the school holidays, hopping into his sort of bizarre Bongo van kind of thing he had. And it felt great to be driving off to work. And I thought this is as close as it gets for providing that sort of thing. They were curious, they'd seen the mic, they played with the microphones a bit. It's probably a bit strong at that age to say they desperately want to be part of it. There was a playfulness about it. And there was another podcast I listened to. I should be careful to recommend it but it's called oh my goodness, mental blank. Here we go. It is very bad wizards. Language warning on that one. It's a philosopher and a psychologist. They're both tenured professors. They are cool dudes. But you know, that comes warts and all. And they one of his one of them is their daughter's does the opening. And she says this podcast is produced by my dad, and philosopher Baba. And they use language that I'm not allowed to say, and all that sort of stuff. And I just loved that. That intertwinement with the family connection, because they're not just these dudes. They're dudes who are situated within family systems. So this is an expression. I think it lends to some degree authenticity. On the other degree. Yeah, maybe I'm like those parents who are living vicariously through their kids as well. So it is it is how it is. I love it. I love it. Hearing it every time it makes me stop. I can't stop it until they finish talking. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. That's so nice. I mean, I can relate to that. I've put Digby in my, just as it's halfway through the episode. I've got him going, you're listening to that being mum with my mom, Alison Newman. It's like, I couldn't have anyone else do it. I've got a friend of mine recorded it for me. She's like, got a beautiful voice really good. VoiceOver. And in the end, I thought, no offense, Danny. Sorry. It has to be Digby, because he's my child, you know, and I'm talking about monster. But I think you're right, it gives it gives this realism, it makes people accessible. And they're not just a voice that you hear, you know, through your headphones or in the car or whatever. They're an actual real person, you can feel the connections that they have. And yeah, that authenticity really comes through. And it gives you a taste into the sort of person they are, you know, that they're, I mean, obviously professional, but not professional enough to ignore the fact that they do have a life outside of what they're doing. I guess, if that's a way of Does that make sense? Yeah, look, I think you've touched on a really important thing there with the podcast, genre. Same with radio, but podcast is a bit different. Because we podcast, a listener has to seek it out. And actively say I want to listen to you. And you are right in their ears, Allison, every single episode. So there is an intimacy that builds from that. And the fact that you're also have your child I think slept it's like imagine if you've gone over to your place for dinner, they'll be there. And so you have got the adult time around the table. But there's also the meet and greet and the interruptions, you know, and that's all part of it. I've started doing that with my clients or talked about marketing, actually, instead of having end of year events, I am slowly it's going to take 50 years working through that, or groups of two or four to come to our makeshift cinema at home, I cook a meal. And then we all watch as a group, just a movie together. So we kept socialized with no talk of business allowed is wonderful. And it is that enmeshing of everything. It's, hey, this is life, you know, we're not these, because I think the big bad thing that happened with especially from what I can tell the sort of 50s 60s 70s and 80s, and probably even lingering with a bloke went off to this other professional world and was out there, and then had to come home and sort of like lower down to the mundane of family, which is a horrible dichotomy. I think we've moved beyond that. And I think it's taken a lot more gender balance or striving towards that. In a growing up, we're still not there. We're still miles away. But just the Yeah, you have to just accept that I can't go today. It's a kid sports day, or it's happened to me last week, girls had gastro and had to be home. So, you know, you just and that's going to dent into things. And I think clients who won't acknowledge that are assholes who are not showing any human respect. And one of the tenets of talked about marketing is that business is personal. It's humans, working for serving other humans. That's the that's what happens. And that means we are part of systems and the family is a system that we're part of. Hmm, I loved how you got so passionate, then I could see your point of view. I love it. Now Good on you. That it's so important. I think that's so true. Like I think back to my dad's generation, like he had an AI what happened? Exactly, I wasn't there. But you sort of see the flow on effects of it. And there wouldn't there would have been a massive separation between the the father's work life, his home life, his social life, even you know, when I when I was a kid, my dad grew up in Colorado, which is a little town probably 40 minutes away. We're really tiny town. And they had a real old traditional pub where you had the saloon bar, you know, the front bar. Women and children were never allowed in the front bar. It was like this rule, unspoken rule, but it was very well followed. So we'd go to the pub for tea, Dad would disappear. We'd fall asleep on the chairs in the, you know, the restaurant, you know, that's what happened. And one of the first times I ever went into the front bar, and I caught myself and went, hang on, I'm in the front but like it was just this weird feeling. I'm not allowed in the front. But, you know, as an adult, I think it wouldn't have even been my grandmother's funeral. You know, it was that I recently and I was like, Oh my gosh, and you think in that one generation how much things have changed? And I think a lot of that you talk about the gender balance I think that's true that you know, men have recognized that that's probably not ideal for the family unit and I think women have stepped up a bit and gone Hang on, we're not gonna sit out there in the heat in the lounge with the kids though. Right? You know, we're a family unit. This is how we're going to be but yeah, that just reminded me of and that was just in my dad's you know, when I when I was growing up how deep those roots are that you still had that oh, yeah, right back where it sits in my sister's wearing the front god oh good day Listen, I want to pick up you said something Woody, I think you nailed it. When you said it's the separation of the two parts of their life. And that's an important word, as opposed to an amalgamation. You know that people talk about work life balance, we can't have that unless it is that warts and all holistic you who brings stories and fatigue and being energized to both ends based on what's happening. I work from home, primarily. And so my girls get to see me worn out stressed, excited, you know, the whole bit, which may be good or bad. Maybe there was a benefit of being shielded from that? No, I don't think so. I think they, I want them to have an appreciation that life as an adult, is, can be pretty intense. And resilience, which is a theme that comes up a lot on this podcast is going to be one of the most invaluable things you can have in your toolkit. How you teach it, I don't know, but partly watching the ebbs and flows and knowing that it ebbs and flows. So it does go up and go down. There's a lot more down that rabbit hole. And I'm gonna continue with this topic. And I love I love talking about important stuff and meaningful stuff. So yeah, I don't mind that we were just gonna keep going. When I was growing up, I never saw that there was a bad side to being a parent, I just thought parents did their thing. And everything was fine. And they looked after us and and then obviously, when I realized for myself that it's an absolute cheat show. I've been I don't know whether I've done it on purpose, or I've just allowed it to happen, that my children say everything, pretty much. I know my mum, she came from a background where they were very protected from things. So she brought that into our own lives of, you know, hiding things from us not sharing bad things from us with us just to sort of shield us. But I just I, to a degree, I pretty much my kids know everything that's going on with me. And I unlike you said I don't know if that's good or bad. But I just think it's a reality of life. I don't I don't want my kids to grow up with this idea that everything's rosy and happy and things never go wrong. And then they get into adulthood and have the experience that I did where they went, Oh Christ. What's all this? You know? Absolutely. I look i i think the beautiful thing is the beautifully painful thing is, there's no right or wrong that I'm aware of no one's written this ultimate guide. That answers his question properly. And it I say ebbs and flows. Again, one generation has one experience and go here. I want to keep that bit and lose that bit too. We'll try and steer it this direction. Yeah, and I remember some sociological sociologist, or anthropologist, one or two, talking about how you have this pendulum swing of attitudes that go back and forth from generation to generation. The generation emerging now is tending not to drink alcohol or smoke because they've seen how bad that is from the previous ones, and then the next ones might be other way. I find that so interesting. I guess the thing that gnaws at me with our open approach is, when are you ready for the full throttle front row seat of being an adult? as well. So there are still things that rightly or wrongly, try to shield? Yeah, yeah. So it's like training wheels a little bit. Interestingly, this we, we, before our daughters, we had a stillborn child, little boy. And we hadn't told the girls. And it just, ah, it came up somewhere. I think it was walleyes. Why in the Riverland, with the girls, because of a conversation piece that someone led with. And I found out that my eldest had been told because by Naughty I didn't know this because she was filling out some government form. And AJ being acquisitive, Snoop saw it and said, What's this? And other ones? Okay, and it was just accepted. And, you know, who knows? I think we could make, or I had certainly made out to be something that could be more life shattering to them than might otherwise have been, I was just going to wait, I was going to hide it forever. But I was just waiting till there was levels of different maturity to discuss it, because at the time it was, it was destructive. Like it's just horrible to experience firsthand as the parent or one of the parents. But it's different, I suppose, with distance, and it's abstract. And where did that come from? Or that came from? How much trying to get this right, it is a messy process. And because I did read a lot of books, when Parenthood was on the horizon for the first time, and I don't know how helpful they were. Because it's like, if I had to write down the instructions on how to pour a glass of water, that's warm. I think if I hand wrote every consideration, that took into account judging the temperature, making sure the glass itself isn't too cold, you know, angle, all these sorts of things. Yeah, it would actually be overwhelming when it's really simple. So books about parenting can make it seem more of a mountain than it is. It's still a mountain part. I think we kind of have to take our own pathway up there somehow, and hopefully reach out to people who try who have trodden the path before, when we ask. Yes, that's a very good point. Yes. Yeah, cuz that's so true. Like everyone's experience, everyone's parenting, how they were parented. Every child is different, you know, there is no book that's going to tell you how to raise your actual particular job. It's possible that some of the books, some of the things and some of the books helped, I just can't place it. It could well have echoed around the subconscious. But it is a moment. What was for me a moment of blind, anxiety, panic and excitement, the moment we walked out of hospital with AJR firstborn and putting her in the car, realizing that I'm now responsible for someone who has no way of defending themselves. That was the most nerve wracking drive ever. Where it really became real because you couldn't just tag team and nurse that was it baby. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. So you've mentioned your wife a couple of times, no idea what to say A good question. She works in a field, I understand very little of which is systems analysis. And so basically, when a organization wants to revisit how they all these different data systems all work together, she is an analyst who gets into the weeds with that. But she is one of these people who is the translator between the business and what the business needs, and the geeky nerdy texts of whom I count many within my friends circle into a language that they understand because it is chalk and cheese. And so people like Nadia, make things happen that actually match what the business needs, as opposed to going off down rabbit holes, which is my gift. That's like she translates between the two worlds. Yeah, that's basic. I think that's it in a nutshell. Yeah. There you go. Good on it. So you talked before about the thing you said was 15 hours to eat for an episode, which is actually interesting. It's made me think about how this how long this takes me. When you've sort of and you said she understands that this is something you need to do, this is like your outlet. This is important. Does she have things on her side that she has to do that? It's like her outlet? We talked about that? You know, putting on your mask first? That sort of stuff? Yep. Netball coaching. Yeah, she is the coach of both of my daughter's netball teams has been for five years or so. So and that means at all the games, running the practice sessions, thinking about strategy, you know, watching other games, to get inspiration. You know, just dealing with the bureaucracy within the education department sometimes when you are trying to do your best to volunteer. And you know, not necessarily always being having that lovely, gift respected having to jump through different hoops. Not I'm not talking at the Child Protection stuff. But that's really important. That's going to happen. But there is some ridiculous bureaucracy that happens from time to time. Anyway, that aside, that's her. Xe just thrives on that. And because she's been an Ebola herself, her mum was a netballer. She's from Tintin era, which is a little town in South Australia. So she grew up in the country. Netball really was part of life. Oh, yeah. And has instilled that and now. Definitely the oldest. I mean, I think that's helped keep the girls excited and fascinated. They're both moving up through for trials for club teams and state teams. And AJ has just progressed on our way to an Olympic squad thing. So wow, it's just I mean, very early days, like really tiny step forward. But yeah, that's pretty awesome. Yeah. It's certainly there any dreams you had of going to the Olympics? Exactly. Because I know people would look at me and think oh, wow, you're really wiry sort of athletic build Steve. Or the opposite? Yeah. So no. So I think that certainly gives her some grounding outside of the nine to five. Yeah, that's awesome. That's good. I want to talk about you've got two daughters. Do you ever feel daunted and nervous and concerned or I don't know if they the words but bringing up to girls in the world that we're in in the world that is changing and becoming? What do you thoughts about that? Many faceted. It makes you well. Okay. Wow, you know how to ask the question. On one hand, I think the growing up many layers of society are doing in embracing the actual positive business benefits of diversity in leadership teams and teams general. The more that works its way through the less one's gender or ethnicity should be used as an exclusion factor. It means that if there are bastions left, which I'm sure there are where it's blokes, they will continue dissolving so that my daughters aren't repelled by those arbitrary divisions. So part of me is hopeful on that front. And look, heaven forbid, I'm, I would expect, and I see there's a lot of, interestingly, did the sums of the day in my marketing more than 8000 business people have been in my various workshops, and therefore I've done mentoring with them over the time, I would say, close to 90% of those would be women, often solopreneurs, or running small businesses. So in some ways, I hope through hearing stories about my clients, that if the girls have an idea of something they want to do, they do it themselves, they don't have to go through a system beholden to other people's opinions. Because the market doesn't seem to be as discriminatory the market doesn't care if it's a product or service that they want they want. It's it's the bat covering within systemic HR systems and our blokes clubs and, and what have where we get stimulated in progress on that front. We've done our best to well, we have we've done our best to be encouraging, of blocking out blowing away any senses of limit. Yeah. I think and got to, the girls get to meet all different sorts of people they wouldn't otherwise, thankfully, through my podcast, got them to mean lots of different people was just, I think part of what can trap us apart from systemic things that are happening in the society, self limiting things which come from not seeing other role models. And so reading or meeting people who have forged different pathways just goes on, it means it's not even a thought that I can't do X. So from that side, that's one thing, then you've got the threat of violence. Out there, and that is disconcerting in many levels. Because I, I have become aware in recent years of how even I'm not really a masculine guy, I've never actually been in a fight. But I don't, and I know, there are times when my hackles are up, walking around late at night, going back to a car from a theater show, in some places, practice, not often it's very rare. But I've been awakened in some of the deeper conversations I've had in the last 10 years that as a female in this society, that's a privilege that I've got not to have to be on guard a lot more permanently, like really aware of it. And so I have to acknowledge I've got blinkers on and it's just the nature of the bloody chromosomes are as given and the society that has built up around me so I don't know what to make of that one thing that only give that gives me a little bit of hope that it might well this is the external stuff then you've got the internal with domestic violence too. But if we look at externally, when you actually do methodical reflection on data, we are living in the safest time ever in human history. Which goes Whoa, you met Oh, hang on, hang on a minute, but statistically it really is. It doesn't mean it's I've got full heartedly saying that. Yeah, let's go off we go abandoned. So lazy, but comparatively, it is it when you actually hear I think it was I think pinker is the researcher who's done this. But I've heard really deep analysis of this, it's and it makes sense. And it also is why our girls go off all over the shop with their bikes, walking, catching buses. Because I was told by my cognitive science mate who did by survey Fanta, who made it made me sit down and push my face into this data and say, Hey, Mr. Murdoch, and his people want to drum up all the fear. But let's be realistic, when you look at what the real risks are, it is minuscule. And so if you give into that, you're robbing them of experiences. So there's that side. And then there's the What about when they're in a relationship with someone and behind closed doors. And I, I don't know, what I do know is hopefully picking up on cues, if there is any sense of trouble. And by blooming large in the life circle of my daughters, so that any potential spouses and other family members and friends are very aware that this is a switched on engaged, family. And this you're not being dismissed, because that is the figures on domestic violence. And murder is it's like that Ukraine thing we talked about? Yeah. So I can't throw the first stone and say, Hey, everyone, we're all being bad. We're not reflecting on Ukraine, because I'm not reflecting on this every day as much as I should, either. And this is back, eternal, crazy, balancing act that will never be perfected. So yeah, that's a long wrap. I'm in balance, really optimistic and looking forward to them just chewing up this world. I think the world needs both of my daughters. They both have amazing gifts to bring in. And I'm hoping it's not just dad wonder that saying that I'm looking at these people as humans, compared to all the humans I've met, and there's some dead set incredible power these girls have for good that they can extend apply to the world and to their their lives. So I am glass half full, despite all of that, but I'm just letting you know that I'm aware of the balls in that glass. Talk to me about the Adelaide Show podcast for people who haven't heard it. It's not about the Adelaide show. Just let's put that out there. First. It's not about the actual Adelaide show. It's a show about Adelaide. The Adelaide show is where he puts South Australian passion on center stage. So it because I'm a South Ozzy and from Adelaide. There's a couple of things. First of all, in 2013, it began well, there's a really bizarre story about how it began, which actually it was close to your part of the world, Allison. And I think look, I think it I think it's worth to sharing it briefly because it does give an insight into the seemingly unquenchable energy and drive that I've got for it. It was 2013. And I was at Chardonnay launch down in southeast South Australia, away from home again, running workshops. And just the so much stress was crushing me. I was I would have been happy to step off the planet. And were it not for having a three year old, a five year old and a partner. And I thought something's got to give here. Something's got to change. I need an expression outside of work because I haven't heard heritage my dad's workaholism. And so I do work 15 hours a day minimum. Like there's rare that that's less than that. And that's bordering on seven days a week and I feel Life was just filling out cardboard. And a friend had said to me, which would you be interested in? We were both angry that all this Twitter stuff was happening. Say Adelaide is boring because Adelaide as an Australian batch of jokes is considered the boring town, along with Canberra there, the two of them get there. And I had this realization, I said, Ah, Colin, we should do this. This is what I want to read, tap into my radio past and do something. And so with Colin long and Brett mountain, we created a podcast called another boring Thursday night in Adelaide. Because we wanted to meet this head on and stare down anyone who said Adelaide is boring. And I grew up as a band called red gum. And they had song called one more boring Thursday night in Adelaide, a tongue in cheek. Funny song. And so I know John Schuhmann. He's been on my podcast, he's a great bloke. And I said, Look, could we use the opening 30 seconds of that song as our theme song? And he said, Look, I'd love you to but I don't own the rights anymore. talk to these people in Sydney. And they said soy came $1,500 per year. Well, there's no way Nadia is going to I mean, she's lovely. But Brett is a singer songwriter. So he ran our own tunes on our own theme song. And so we started three guys. And at that point, it wasn't an interview focused program. It was it was actually a lot of fun. We would talk about different bits of Adelaide and South Australia. And we also had a thing called the the Adelaide visa segment, in which I would bring three samples of tweets in which people had used the word boring and Adelaide in a tweet. And we would sit in session as a visa counsel and discuss the pros and cons. And either they get away with it. They're making a good point, in which case combined with big stamping, they get a visa. And if they are not, we cancel their visa. And then we tweak this to people. And we would say you you have had your Adelaide visa rejected. Anyway, we had really one guy, tweet back say I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I love Adela. And he was actually the best right he was the head of the the Adelaide United Soccer fan club. And so what in our in our judgment. We had cited that saying you have a higher responsibility. Good luck getting in next time you travel interstate to see the team good luck getting back into South Australia. He was so apologetic. We then reversed that gave him his visa back. And so there's this bit. We created a bit of Hullabaloo, we got a little bit of media coverage about what we were doing. And and then back by episode 80. We did every week. In fact, the first five years of the podcast was weekly and did not miss a single week. By week 80. We just started to discuss we dealt with that. There wasn't much left of people saying Adelaide was boring. And we've moved towards more interview format. And we there is an opening coming up and the PR person said we'd love to invite you but the clients nervous about having another boring one another boring, the boring thing they didn't, you know, we've outgrown that. Let's call ourselves the Adelaide show, and rejiggered so now we're not trying to react against something negative, we're going full bore positive. Yeah. And so we've had that in our first guest was Paul Gordon, who's a social media lawyer. And the whole interview was about right. If I was part of the Royal Adelaide show, could I sue us for calling ourselves the Adelaide Show podcast? And so we had the whole legal discussion, in which he said there were no grounds so that we could go forward. And if any, if they made any moves against us, we could say well listen to episode 80. And it will save us all the legal fees. And we then ended up doing we got invited we got clutched to their bosom, we got invited into their world. And we had some amazing interviews with the Adelaide. So the Royal Adelaide show. And in fact, the river land trip was as a direct result of that the former president had invited us up to do a special bond and we went back we caught up with him while we were there. So it's just as long story short since then, would apisto episode at this time 357 And I just Look for South Australians who are passionately engaged in some sort of endeavor. They don't have to have any celebrity standing. Few do, they just need to be wanting to talk about the thing they care about? Whether it's doing magic, whether it's their Ukrainian hometown, whether it's the history of rabbits in Australia, you know, science, health, acting, you know, drama movies, you know, you name it, we have talked about nuclear physics. You know, we've covered everything. And it's just for me, it is perpetually propelled by my curiosity. I've just, I've just got that DNA makeup that I'm always just, you know. So and I can relate to that. Exactly. Wonderful. Love it. So it's a eclectic. And on the homepage at the Adelaide show.com. Today, you we've got the current episode is on front, but also on the right hand side is, there's about 12 or 13 different categories, so people can click through to choose a clutch of programs of a topic they care about, and probably a really heartening thing is as we speak. We are currently the holder of silver for best interview podcast in Australia. Ah, congratulation. That was Thank you. It was awesome. It was lovely. And, and I like that because it's judged by my it by peers, by professionals in the media, it's not just a popularity show. And because I think it's lovely, the I love the dynamic of an interview environment, whether it's at a dinner party or in a studio, wherever around the table. There's something about the asking questions, and then the listening to answers, and then picking up on something from that answer to ask another question. And then shifting topic, that I just love that and we don't get much of a chance to do that in the short bites we get in the rush of life, and certainly, in the mainstream media shows they've got 10 seconds is considered a long answer. And you never get to depth. Yes, yes. Whereas at least with my answers, you've got not only some depth, I hope, but also a cure for insomnia. If you're listening to this while your head is nestled on a pillow somewhere you do have a beautifully soothing voice. Diaper I look I so agree with that. And I feel like Australia used to have before the rise of this reality TV, we used to have really good quality what were they called? Ah, it's on the tip of my tongue but like not variety shows, but all those I mean, like shows were would be real people and they would have discussions and like Andrew Denton was is one of my favorite interviewers because he does that thing real asked his question. And like he said, wait for the answer. And then from that he'll find somebody else to talk about. And I love that and and Ray Martin gives me the absolute sheets because it's like literally reading off his little clipboard. This is my next question. No matter if the person just said something so groundbreaking It would change the world he just go. Right My next question is this like it never deviate from his plan? And I feel like yes, we've really lost and the time because everything has to be in short bites to keep people engaged. You know? I don't know we've we've lost that. I mean, the ABC still does a pretty good on shows like, like Australian story and things like that, where you delve into people. But that just that back and forth conversation and then maybe that's where podcasts are coming into their own. You know, maybe that's where things have changed a little bit, but I love conversation like i i saw I'm getting really warmed up now I'm shaking my fist. Go for it. I can see it. Oh, I I know there's a place for small talk because there's a lot of time in life necessarily, but I that it really irritates me. Like, I want to know about people I want to know what makes them tick and why they do what they do and the factors that influence them. And like, I don't know, I'm just indulging myself in this, this podcast world. And people listened to it and that's really nice, but I feel like it's like I love talking to people about proper stuff. Well, yes, that's how we craft craft meaning in life. Yeah. And I look there is a place for small talk because there is the that forms the little bonds between each other it sort of aligns ourselves but then to stay there is an impoverished experience whereas to use that to then propel deeper in Two topics will be great. I mean, my character Darren Hill next week is going to be the emcee some business awards. And they've have a networking period back 20 minutes. And he is going to give them some questions to start that networking. And they will be the most unexpected observed topics you could ever imagine. And my thinking there is we people clam up, because most of us, according to I think psychologists, who can tell us is actually worried about how we look at it dominates 95 plus percent of our attention. And so everyone's worried of what they look like, without realizing well, that means that no one's really worrying about what they look like, because everyone's worried about themselves. Yeah, they're to put the question forward in a networking event, people either bombastically say, hey, come and buy my thing. Or they sort of too nervous to do anything. But if they've been given permission by this stupidly crazy emcee to ask people, if you're a cat, you know, what kind of further would you prefer to have? And would you consider added I haven't even made I haven't been worked out yet. But it breaks the ice, because it's a little trick. I'm making them not look at each other, with everything being high stakes, but I'm saying, Hey, look over there. And while you're doing that, guess what? You're now in conversation? Yeah. And so yeah, that just breaks that ice. It's why little trick that I do with the Adelaide show. Mostly, not always, because sometimes I've got some pre recorded, it starts with the South Australian drink of the week. And what we have typically done when it's face to face, it's changed a bit the last couple of years. But typically, I asked the guest to bring a South Australian alcoholic beverage if they drink alcohol, yeah. To share, and so we drink that, how may I find out about why they chose this wine, and I do my bizarre wine tasting notes and all that sort of stuff. But what it's doing is it's that same trick, look over there. They're now not panicking about the interview. Plus the alcohols just lubricated things a little bit. Thank you very much. And I had a free drink. And there was a period there where there was this ongoing serial jealousy between guests, and they kept bringing more and more expensive bottles of wine until someone bought a Penfolds Grange. Fine, which is we're talking $650 A bottle, or even an Australian dollars. That's a lot for your American listeners. About $45 American but it was, you know, beautiful. It's and it was fun. And it's just that trick. I don't know how we got onto that. Now talking, yes, deep conversation. Sometimes it just takes that little bumper car to knock us out of being straight jacketed. And suddenly it's like, it's the pressures off. Yeah, that's it. We can play. Yeah. Yes. And that's when all the good things fly. All the good juicy stuff comes in. So you talked about D H there a little bit of share, how how did you get involved with comedy, and through the podcast. I was about throes to just before 2018. I entered the Australian Podcast Awards with Adelaide. So we went over for the awards. We didn't we were finalists for best news and current affairs podcast. But I got to meet Marie Morgan who ran the school of hard knocks, which was a comedy score. And a couple of months later, he said Steve, we're going to run a class in Adelaide, would you consider promoting it for us? And I said, What is this a stand up comedy course? Yeah, he said five nights. Glenn Nicholas will be the teacher now Glen Nicholas, many Australian listeners might remember on a fantastic so the ABC used to have called the big gig in the 90s which had the Doug Anthony all stars and all sorts of comedians. He had a character called pat a biscuit in which he dressed up as Patsy Bisco. Supposedly a a school kid at little children's Keep with a little Bongo. Bongo, yes, behind you behind you. Yes, he is hilarious. He was going to be the teacher. And so he said, the thing is you have four nights of working up and creating material. And on the fifth night, we have a performance that you invite friends and family, they pay tickets, I come along, and we put on a stand up so with a couple of other comedians as the main X. And I said, Look, what if you put me through it? And I will because it was about 600 bucks to do the course. And is, and I would cover it thinking, because I've always wanted to do it. It was the last bastion for me of pushing because I love talking. comedy was like, no safety net. And I thought our eldest asked, he'll say No, I said, Okay, you're on. So he called my bluff. Yeah. And I remember going to the first rehearsal. driving across town, you had to come with two minutes of Stand Up material, having never done it before. Glenn could get a bit of a feel for it. I could feel my pulse. In one of my eyebrows. As I was so nervous, the blood pressure was just shaking. So Mr. Hop in front of any crowd, all good was suddenly this ball of Wired, panic. Anyway, did it kind of got a laugh or two, and I'm not much and we're all just as bad as each other. And then Glenn just has the most masterful way of unpicking things and looking for their their strengths and suggesting this might not be an area forward, but this one. Anyway, long story short, did the opening night. It was hilarious, great fun, and got the bill, it was just nice to have it done, the thing I learned the most from it was structure. The key difference between someone who can make people laugh at the pub, and someone who's doing it professionally is the professional will make sure that the part of the punch line that delivers the punch is the final part of the sentence. So when we just tell a yarn around the pub will often deliver that, but there's a bit more of the sentence just to finish off. And we're in friendly company. So people sort of laugh, but it's so much more powerful when you go bang. And really apart from other stuff. That is the most fundamental thing that I've taught. So I did that. A few months later, they were going to do the course again in Melbourne, but filmed it for a TV show, which is now online. You can watch this on YouTube, it's called Is this thing on? And it's a six part reality TV show. Yes, the thing we hate daddy were different when you're in. Where they ran, Glenn was the teacher again. But they did a different structure was six days and nights. There were 10 of us. And they went through the course again. But each day there was a different comedian guest who was going to teach us something. So Eliot goblet is another person from the past. Jack Levis, his real name. He talked about short punch lines and being a bit absurd and also a number of different comedians. And that was fascinating to perform. At the end of that week, having been filmed every moment, there was a bit midway through ice working on material and I just had this moment of panic. All my confidence, shattered through the basement and disappeared. And I I went to see Glenn was doing a lunch break. I said Glenn Claver chat, and I said, Glenn, I can't do this. I have a fake. And I just remember it beautifully. And it was just he and I and he said I have directed huge names, actors around the country. Everyone experiences this. There's a little voice on your shoulder that's whispering in your ear and this one I want you to do turn your head to that voice and say to it back off. Back off. And he said because it's got no right to be there. So let's regroup. And sure enough it was just the most beautiful bond he and I had dear friends To this day, and when my shows I've done especially the professor, long sword shows, he was my director. And he just knows how to bring the gold to the surface. He sort of lay down a footpath. And he goes, Oh, there's a gold coin. There's a gold coin that any Wow. And so. So the comedy thing, that was how that happened. Yeah. And then that was just doing stand up. And then because in my marketing day work, I've done an MBA, I think MBAs have some value, but there's a lot of bank. They can be, they can be. And so the professor was developed as an outlet for this. Just poke fun at the whole MBA enterprise, because MBAs used to be a four year solid degree when they started that 100 years ago. And now you see them, hey, three month MBA, and it's just this shunting people through. So the professor took it all the way at the fringe a couple of years ago, and he had the lunchtime NBA, when you come for lunch, and leave with a degree. And, and it was quite hilarious. So So that's poking fun there. And Darren Hill is a new character who pokes fun at the ludicrous aspects of this whole social media, influencer phenomenon. He, he talks about, he's the one who stands behind to make the social media stars. In fact, he's given birth to more social influence social media influences, then Kris Jenner. And so, you know, he's, he's right there. And just takes that to that extreme. Yeah, yeah, he's really broad, and AKA, whereas the professor is much more, much more reflective, and sort of higher English. Yeah. I don't sure if I fully answered the question, but I can't remember what it was, it was about what prompted them. And that's how I got to these characters, how you got into quarantine, because I've got material from both of those strands of my marketing work. And I can poke them out in different directions, and have fun with them at the professor has just delivered. Its online now a 15 Min, I think it's a 13 minute MBA meditation that you can listen to, and He will guide you through a meditation. And it all started because I am actually doing a meditation course with Sam Harris at the moment, which is amazing. 10 minutes every day. And he starts off and then there's quiet. And then he comes on. And so with the professor, I just wanted I just had this idea to I want you to focus very closely and read something from Philip Kotler is marketing book. And then there's silence. And then there's little and he pretends that no one's heard this. And then he gives him something else. And then this little rattle of his tea cup because he doesn't quite get it. And then he just is. I just wanted to get that out of my system. Yeah. Because he's a Daughtery. He's like a Mr. Magoo. He, and there's quite this thing where Tuesday nights I have the faculty meeting in the school hot tub, and they're all nude. And it was bonding. And so he's just lives in. I guess I live in fantasy worlds. When I get into those characters. They're both on LinkedIn as you can follow these people on LinkedIn. I'm laughing like I love that Sebastian long sought on LinkedIn keeps getting these LinkedIn messages saying, hey, there's a professor job open at Flinders University, and very tempted to apply for one at some point. Geez, that is brilliant. That is that's a bit of Lera can mischief awesome. Yes, my goal was get exposed to all of this coming back to you yells, yes. Identity about how sorry, I'm gonna just have to go ask my three rowdy people out there who are playing table tennis just to keep it down. Sorry, Steve. is actually five of them out there. My oldest son's got two friends over. That's why it's so damn loud out there. All right, good. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm here all day. Listen, is it going hang on a moment? Really? All right. We've got so much time Fitzy isn't that the good thing about podcasts? You can press pause, and you can come back to it later. You know? Exactly. I love that. Because someone told me one time I had this really long episode. And someone told me I should make like to cut it into two. And I said, No, but that's up to people, like everyone's listening to this in a different environment, they might want to listen to it for that long. Well, they might want to come back to it later. So it's not up to me to decide for people. I just do a benevolent, benevolent dictator, a benevolent podcast, I haven't been able to. All right, Steve, that didn't have children? How did you your view of yourself? Or how you saw yourself, change or not change might not have I don't know, when you became a father, did anything change in my self identity, pre and post children? Look, it surely did. Subterranean leave, if I can just make up an adverb on the fly. Because I wasn't necessarily convinced of the parent enterprise as something, I kind of knew I had a societal and social responsibility to do this. Because I am prone to slipping into where evolutionary thinking from time to time, and understanding that, ultimately, I'm here, because the genes within me want and need to replicate to maintain their march of existence. And so I sort of have to go along the way. I mean, you can go way too far and be very reductionist in understanding life. But I'm aware of that that we need. Well, I need probably a bit strong, but yeah, that is the way of things. And it is actually noted. And I know, I knew that. It was, for me. A profound source of me, it gave meaning to my life, to be doing my tag team bit form the genes within me, which sounds very cold and like a James Bond villain. But there was that role, but I wasn't ready. I didn't feel ready. I didn't feel like a parent. Because parents are these different types of people who kind of have their shit together. And they eat they run things. And parents. They know what to do. And they just do stuff. So I wasn't there. And so it was late. I was late. I'm one of them. Let me just quickly do the I reckon I was close to 40. or there abouts. When I ventured into parenthood. I suppose we could say that given there's a 10 year age difference between Nadia and me. Nadia was still in what might be considered the Goldilocks zone, age wise for women. So this is dodging the question. No, I'm I'm trying to enter the question and finding the right entrance point. I just wasn't ready. And I didn't think I could. But at the same time, that there's a thing inside me that happens whenever I go to run a new workshop. So even the workshop you would have seen me do or any performance, you get to a point we say well, nothing can stop now we have to step out on that stage and just do it. And that was the way with which I approached parenthood. We just had to step on this way. So we had the unfortunate first step, which was heart rending. I remember driving back from the hospital to get a few things to take back after the baby had been removed and placed aside the body. Just screaming in tears on the phone to a couple of dear friends who were just you know, God sends we rebuild our world and not is very pragmatic person. And so right we're getting back onto this. See parent material. And so in the lead up to age as birth. The naming thing probably drew me in. Okay, so I am a huge fan of Leonard Cohen. I am his biggest fam, I am obsessed by the man. He was my absentee dad growing up. I had a dad but because I'd moved out of home very early, driving the highways late at night, his songs and concepts would be telling me stories. And he was my company. And I love his poetry. And so I convinced Nadia that the when we knew we were going to have a girl, I said, can I go and choose all the female names Leonard Cohen's used in all his written works, songs and poems, and put them in a poll and asked the world to vote on what our daughter's name would be. And so she crazily said yes, so I did this. And back, then we're talking 2008, there was a thing called pole daddy, which is ironic. Yeah. And so we put this up, we had 1000 votes. And the one on top was Alexandria. And thankfully, it was Alexandria, then Suzanne, and then Heather. And anyway, so I, that was me, I think, trying to connect my world of the poet reflector. Being in meshed with the stuff of life, the messy, bloody DNA of life. So that hooked me in. And I remember one thing very clearly. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little cot, wrapped up in that blanket the way they do so you get a good dose of claustrophobia right from the word go. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that making me that was the first thing that she heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. And they are the first two things apart from the doctors and nurses that she heard in her life. And I was just yeah, that was part of me getting in still very superficial, you know, haven't earned any dead points yet. I've earned my radio producer, journalist curator points. It was then being taken in and taught how to bathe AJ by the nurse, which was fear instilling this little thing just hardly bigger than your hand and you had to do this and it would squirm around and it had bones and flesh and stuff. And but then doing that more at home, changing nappies how quickly we forget what that was really like, but you just shut up and do it. And to be honest, although I tried to do my bits, I've been the workaholic and with Nadia having the chance to have some time off from work to to get she took the lead in that first year or two. And I my floor is that I think I am very aural based language based I needed a language connection to really deeply like so I was committed. Yeah, she i i love the fact that we let her was and was mainly me lobbying for this let her sleep in the bed between us even though all the books Oh, no, no, no, I'm not gonna smother my child I loved the only way I could feel less helpless is if I could be there as a human shield on one side while she slept, you know, so anything bad happen. And then once language happened, then it deepened and deepened and deepened. To the point that very early on from the dot for both of them. We would just, I started with rhyming. I wanted to have a lot of rhyming and I did a lot Have improvised theatre. So we're doing that, then we would make up songs all the time. And she got a little coffee, espresso machine toy one from someone, and we might put another coffee in the coffee machine, you know, and all that. And so as they became songs we sang. But even when Caitlin was later born, the same thing happened, we would go around the house, the three of us was making I would do the first songs get to the point where there's going to be a rhyming word. And they had to come up with that word. And they're the things I remember from that sort of level of connection. Still, I suppose. You could be saying there's still levels of superficiality there. I am the cook at home. So I to me, maybe it's selfish, but it's how I feel. I can be useful and needed. And I love it. It is there is some time I'm a slowest cook in the world. And there is every recipe is full of lies. When they say prep time. 20 minutes. Nothing is less than an hour and a half. I cannot rush. But, uh, maybe that's my little bit of downtime, but also the serving up. I remember when COVID first struck, that we do eat together as a family. I remember the girls, I was experimenting and pushing things out. And notice like, Oh, this is great dad. Really? This is a wow, it's like a little mini if anyone knows the castle, the movie The Castle, where the dad says, Jesus love. What's this? It's chicken. Oh, wow. You know? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Yeah, it's so satisfying. Yeah. So I felt part of it. So, you know, I'm there. I've done my I mean, it's, I can't claim to be fully over 50% of the job. But in meshed, I love them. You know, they're just love watching them grow as humans, and to be part of that it's a privilege to be in their little world. And then keep that balance. I can't be sucked in to be their friend, I wouldn't be friendly. But I am their dad. And then there's some beautiful communication that's happened since Sorry, I'll draw this to a close. But I remember back. If there was $1, there's a new drinking song for Alexis. Every time I say I'm sorry, this is going long. And it is this. She wrote on her because her birthday is the day before mine. So they sort of bonded that way. Show me a card. Think must have been a 13. So dead. I'm about to become a teenager. And there's going to be some changes happening in my body. And there are going to be some times when I am going to be hard to be around and hate you. But I want you to know that I love you deeply. Despite all of this. That is probably going to happen. As i Wow. That is a beaut human. Right. There may be some things happen right? Along the way. Yeah. To call a spade a spade like that, but in a gentle way. But just matter of fact, as well. Hey, you know, Saudis. Beautiful kids, you've got this lovely. Oh, good on. Yeah. And this thing like, I don't know. Sorry, I have a big stretch. You think about the stuff that you kids will remember. But I think about that a lot what my kids will remember from growing up. And you know, it's it's that stuff you talk about like this, the songs in the car in the three hour trip, everyone's sharing their songs, you know, these these things that you said a couple of times, you know, superficial but I think as humans like we have, we have to use something to get deeper. So there has to be something up here before we can get down there. So, you know, we don't we can't diminish that. What can be seen as superficial. Like you said before, about, you know, the small talk, it leads to something deeper, there's always that? I don't know, just seems to make sense. Yeah, you're right. And there were lots of fun times where AJ was reading her books and they had tippers and diggers and all the trap books, he loved them. So to get them to sleep. Sometimes when I was home with them, I'd pop them both in the car seats and we do driving around hunting for tippers and diggers and all this, why didn't lots of things I probably borrowed a bit too much oil from the planet in that pursuit, but it really suits them. And it was fun having those hands. I'm hoping that might pop up up in a memory somewhere. I'm the same, Alison, I wonder what will be remembered? Because it'll be the things that we probably don't expect. Yeah, yeah, it'll be, it'll be things that we saw as insignificant or Yes, flippant or whatever. There'll be the big things, because that's the stuff I remember, as a kid, like, Dad had these hid, I think he wanted to turn me into some sort of genius. And it kind of went the other way. He had these flash cards that had, like, big red sticker dots on them. And he would hold them up real quick, and get me to tell me, like estimate how many were on there. Right? Yes, actually, I do credit him for teaching how to estimate because I'm very good at estimating very quickly how many like there's a, I've won a lot of guests. How many things are in the jar? So maybe, oh, wow. But he, and I remember that. And I don't know, to him that he probably don't even remember that. But I really remember that they these big red dots coming at me, and they put it down. Good on him. Oh, my God, and I'm useless at math. I hate maths. Oh my god. Yeah, who knows, I just hope it's on the positive side of the ledger. That's the best you can hope for. There's something that makes them smile when I think of it. Although I did think to myself the other day that they'll have 357 plus episodes of the Adelaide sorry to listen to, if they want to, because they're a little bits of me that get, you know, exposed during those that they could piece together what he was like Oh, I love that. Do your daughters inspire you? In what you do? Do you find yourself sort of getting little sparks that you might not have got before? Because now you're a debt? Oh, wow. I would hope so. I would. I'm just trying. And that's really interesting, because I think like I want them to be proud of what I do. And there is a strong Geyser of intrinsic motivation that shooting out by desperate need to be on a microphone or at the front, which is a weakness and occur. I curse a blessing everything all wrapped into one. Because it's a back wood way of saying inspired. I want them to be like this I want. The people who have a greater chance of thriving in this world are the ones who can be comfortable stepping in front to lead a team. And it's good to be a good team person too. Don't get me wrong. But the world needs leaders and people who can help consolidate thinking and make it clear for others to be mapmakers as Seth Godin would say. And so in some ways by them seeing me do this. Here's an example early on. Andy and Terry, I think had the 13th floor Treehouse book and then the 26th floor treehouse. I think it's Andy and Terry and AJ as much as he loved these books love these books. Anyway, they were coming to Adelaide to launch a new book. And she, so I contacted their organizer and said, I've got a however old she was seven year old here, avid reader, who is part of me for the Adelaide Show podcast, and would like to interview them. And sure enough, I wangled it. And so we went to the Adelaide Oval where the big event was, and we got in first, we got to the secret room, and I held the microphone while she did her interview with them back and forth. And then we got taken in to where the launch was before anyone else right in the front row. And while were there, waiting, she was so excited and thrilled. I said, Darling, this is the fruit of me being comfortable enough to put my hand up and risk embarrassment by wanting to be that person that tells stories publicly or is asked questions and you've shown that to and This little thing we're having here, this little extra experience is the reward for that. You don't just get given this. And so who knows, maybe that might be something she remembers. But it's, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's, it's, I'd love to instill that in them that it should just be another thing you can do, as opposed to the research that says something like nine out of 10 people or even more at a funeral would rather be in the casket that actually speaking. There's no just talk entertainers tell a story think. Yeah, that reminds me, I said to my good that, like, it might surprise you. But I wasn't always this talkative? Oh, no, I used to be really, really nervous about talking to people and even lining up in shops, I used to be really nervous when I get to the front of the line, what I'd say and how I'd say it. And anyway, like, thank goodness got out of that. And I said to my son, we're going to see Constantino, the magician. Guy in May, Gambia in a few months, and he desperately wants to meet him. So I've done my thing and messaged and tried to contact him, whatever. So nothing's come over yet. But you know, that's what I do. I've never, I've got this thing that I'm never afraid to ask. Because if they say no, it's no skin off my nose. And you know, it's not I don't take anything personally. So beautiful. That took a lot of learning as well. But anyway, that's another story. So I said to him, when you're in the crowd, and they say, I need a volunteer, I said, always put your hand up, stand up and put your hand up. I said, because that's the only way you ever get chosen for things. As a kid, I'd think I really want to do that. But I'd sit there and hide and be scared, and no one's going to come up and go, Oh, you little Gilda that looks like you're scared. shitless. Let's get you on the stage. You know, so I've tried to teach my kids that if you want something, there is nothing wrong with saying that you want it and you can get it. You know? That's a very short way of I mean, obviously, there's a lot of hard work within certain things. But if you're in a situation where you want something, you stick your hand up and say I want this. Don't be like me when I was a kid. Yes, it's the it's the thing of ask. I wasn't knock on the door we opened asked and it will be given and somebody will seek and usually I find I don't often quote from scripture, because I've that's not part of my life anymore. But there are some profound things from the old writings that stick through. That's one of them. Unless you've asked, you'll never know. And see. And so that's that's a tough one ticket however, surprisingly tough. It shouldn't be. So I'm hoping Yeah. Yeah, but that thing you said earlier that quote about 95% of us so, uh, worried what everyone's thinking. Yes. You know, I remember when I first realized that, that that thing that you said afterwards, then that, that means none of us are worrying about each other, because we're all wearing about ourselves. Correct. And I had this moment of like, ah, oh, it was like this freeing thing, because I grew up as a performer on the stage being judged in a Stanford's. Right? So you put this kid who's got no confidence in anything and stick him on the stage and have people judge them and write things about them. That's a recipe for disaster, isn't it? So when I got out of that world, and realize that one person's opinion about me does not define my whole identity was life changing? It took a long time. But you know, it's given me all these ways of looking at things now that aren't defined by other people. Oh, I agree. It's when I do theater reviewing, I carry that responsibility, soberly, that people will read this. And there are some critics who make a name for themselves from being a servic and horrible. And that's not me, I will. I've got to honor the people who read my reviews or listen to them that if they buy a ticket based on what I've said that I can look them in the eye and things, but I tend to put it in the context that if you do like absurdist suspense fueled country music, then this is the show that you might like, whatever the context is, and then I share my thoughts within that lens, as opposed to judging it against Oklahoma. And there have been two occasions where I have contacted the organizers and say, and said, I would prefer not to write a review because anything I write I think will be harmful to your very younger, to your, your performers. And I think if we just left it as it was, it might be nicer, and they appreciated that fact. Because, you know, criticism Somebody have to learn to live with but it needs to be. I only feel I can do it because I trolled the boards for many years doing absurdist theater, I understand the the angst, the pain, the the price you pay for going out there. So I measure that. But the same time there are I mean, there's a, I've just turned down some tickets to a show that's coming up, because it's just going to make me vomit. I think it's just a cutesy approach to storytelling that I don't think we should be doing. And I just, I'd rather just not review it. That's very kind of you to think that way. You know, it's not. And I think a lot of the people that do judge people harshly and put out, you know, scathing things, it's, I think it says a lot about themselves personally, and a lot of egos involved in that, because it's more about what they're saying. And their words, rather than, like you said, putting things in context and giving an explanation. And, you know, you have to ensure if there is something that was a bit off, I will offer his little trick, oh, I have no one who hears this is going to be reviewed by me, but I'll say, intriguingly, it seems the directors gone for creating this kind of feeling. So I've, I have, I've turned what is the potential negative in and giving them the benefit of the doubt, so that I'm doing two things at once. They know, quietly, that I might have seen a little bit of a weakness here, but they haven't lost face. And the audience who read this potential audience will go are ik that's probably not the thing I want to see. So they'll get the message, but no one's lost face in it. So that's, and who knows, maybe that is post parenting. Steve, who has those sensibilities? That pre parenting Steve might not have? I don't know. But there is that key because we try not to just say that, Oh, this lovely, we try to be specific in things that we will praise, etc. Rather than just a blanket. thing, because I grew up being told by my mom or your top you should be this, you should be that and it we can it lowers the value, the potency of that phrase. Well, it's just never ending. Better than having someone on the other end of the spectrum though. Saying that I just got thinking, have you ever done any? I'm not telling you what to do. But I can imagine you doing some sort of skit where you're the you're the theater reviewer, and you're reviewing your children. Now to me, Oh, you've gotten out of bed a little bit early today. But that's okay. You know, like, you know what I feel like that's just flushed through my head. See, I love that. Because the other bit from the old scriptures that I quote often is that there is nothing new under the sun. Because there isn't really but there are new ways of slicing and dicing things. And often that comes from taking a duck out of water and putting it somewhere else. And that's great. To write a sort of review. Yeah, of the family day. So how does a theatre critic write in their diary each day? That's interesting. Yeah. I get the fish out of water. Yeah, not duck fish out of water because ducks do go out of water and they are quite comfortable. But yes, fish out of water. less so. That is, that is the thing about journalism that that I was taught from early aid, man bites dog. That's how you know a story is a story. Dog bites man. Who cares? The man but man bites dog. That's where there's a story. That's the unexpected. Yeah. And and I know that sexist language but it's from early 1900s that as I've used it in the original language I'm faced appreciate you putting that caveat of it can you share with us your your website? Where can everyone find you talked about marketing.com Is my marketing business. We are probably around the time this comes out. Launching a podcast called talking about marketing with my new business partner I'm David Olney, who's a, an amazing brain form Elektra, he's blind. He is just an all seeing, wise man. And we bounce off each other nicely. So we're going to share something which I hope is helpful. At the Adelaide show.com to the UNLV podcast app, look for the Adelaide show, you'll find us and talking about marketing soon, I also do some others and have fun. There's one called this medical life, which is a podcast I produced with Dr. Travis Brown, if you want have a chronic condition, and you'd love to dive deep into it, this is a podcast in which we go for one disease at a time. It's for doctors. But if you're the person with something like this, you get to go deep, and you hear how doctors talk to each other about this stuff, which is great. Yeah, that sounds fascinating. It's, it's, it's amazing. I'm just I'm just the the band who sews it together. Dr. Travis Brown is the brain. And our guests are amazing. I'm just there for the on the show, girl. So they're the main things, the characters, if you're on LinkedIn, I'd love you to follow them. Darren Hill. He's got a website, Darren hill.co. He's the social media whisperer. He's just ramping up. And then at at MBA school.com. Today you you'll find the MBA school of MBA credentials. That's where you have this wonderful free mindfulness meditation. 13 minutes of your life, you'll never get back. And he's he's quite fun there. I think they're the main things to share, at this point in time, really just done that your MBA school? Do you find that people think that that's real? If I had someone this week, ask what are the rates? What are the costs for attending your school? And I fessed up to that person or the person for whom I think, I think they're an overseas student. And I did want to lead them astray. If it was a local, I might have had more fun with them. But yes, I do. MBA news did a big story on us. When we had our MBA, lunchtime MBA that was a bit of fun. But Professor long sword chips into the occasional debate every now and then, his one mission in life is to make Philip Kotler who is one of the seminal lecturers and researchers in the realm of marketing that the textbook called Marketing is by Kotler at owl. And Professor long sword has kept nibbling at him, there's not been a bat yet even he's done a series of short videos, you know how you have food and wine pairings. He has book and textbook and wine pairings. So he paid marketing by Philip Kotler to the most atrocious South African wine you could imagine. And he said, The only reason that goes with this is because marketing is so dense and tiresome. It will put you asleep if you weren't drinking this horrible liquid from South Africa. That is a stringent and still nothing crickets. Oh, one days, one day, you gotta keep keep trying. That's his goal in the nicest possible way. Oh, good luck with that. Well, thank you so much for coming on stage. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been my pleasure, chatting with you and picking your brain and hearing all the awesome things that you've got to share. It's been so great. Thank you. Look, thank you very much. And thank you for welcoming me into this podcast because it is very overwhelming when I look back at all the different amazing women you've had on to go, Oh, my goodness, I hope there's something useful, helpful, fun, at least diverting, hopefully something at least diversional is a new word doesn't even exist. Until now. Thank you first time you've heard it here. I'll take care and thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you As someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Julie Denton Australian yoga teacher S1 Ep03 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Julie Denton is a creator of a different kind, having worked in the fitness industry since her teens and more recently as a yoga teacher. A mother of 3 adult children from Mount Gambier SA, Julie talks about how society's view of the mother changes as we age, the unique perspective she has now her children have moved out of home, and we finish the podcast with a beautiful Metta Karuna mediation. **This episode contains discussion around an eating disorder** Julie instagram Podcast - instagram / website Music used by permission in this episode from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. My guest today is not your run of the mill artist creative, or the first thing that may spring to mind when you think of a creator. Typically, your mind goes to painters, writers, dancers and more like that Today's guest has a long history of creating in another way. And I invited her on to share one of the many ways that mothers are being creative today. My guest, Julie Denton from Matt Gambia, South Australia has many years experience in the fitness industry, as a business owner and more recently as a yoga teacher. Work. Julie, it's great to have you here. Thank you, Alison. It's great to be here. Yeah. And my first face to face interview too, which is very exciting. Obviously, I know you quite well, and I've known you for a while. But would you like to share a bit about yourself how it maybe what you've been up to, over the years involved in fitness, maybe how you got into it, what you've been up to, with the yoga, that kind of thing? Sure. When I was 18 and working in my first job. One of my co workers dragged me along to what was an aerobics class back then, at the local was just the squash center. And I was hooked. I loved it. And until that point in my life had been quite lazy. I was the girl that wags sports day at school. But I just loved it. I loved the music and the movement and the way it was all put together and I guess I love the creativity of it. So when I've literally been going for maybe a month or two this aerobics class went out bought all the gear, how will you no idea? Like Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So the days where your oily attire over your leggings and it had a G string and the leg warmers and I had the hair that went with everything was float? Look, my kids look at the photos and go Oh, Mom, have you still got some of that stuff? Because that's heavy. I have it doesn't smell very good. Like anybody um, the the woman who was taking the classes a month in the woman that was taking the classes was leaving town. And she literally said to me, Julia, would you like to take over and I said, you know, you didn't need qualifications in these days. And I said, Oh, yeah, that'd be great. And gee whiz, I, I was really thrown into it. And I remember making my first little mixtape of all I could say, took my little boombox and press play, and away we went. And it was dreadful. It was horrible to everybody loved it. And I loved it. And you know, there was nothing to compare it to. In, you know, small country town at the squash center, it was, you know, we were having a hoot. So, from there, you know, I definitely went on to become qualified and more experienced. And eventually, it led me into personal training. I opened my own personal training studio as a business. And then around about three years ago, now I left the fitness industry and opened my own yoga studio. I've been teaching yoga for about 11 or 12 years, but thought it was time to morph into something new and yoga was definitely my passion. So had you always had that sort of feeling of it? And I'm jumping right ahead here to something I'll probably ask you later. But the the spirituality that comes with yoga, was that always something you had already? That come later? Or how did you come to that? Yeah. It's funny that you asked that because I was raised as a Catholic. I went to a Catholic Primary School. So I guess that religious spirituality was there. And when by the time I had, you know, I was well into my 40s and I did my yoga teacher training, and had sort of left religion You like by then I sort of, I guess become became a bit disillusioned with it all and was perhaps looking for that spirituality again. And that's what led me to yoga. And I know, yoga facilitated a lot of change in my personal life at that stage that I really needed. I guess it was my next level of growth. And in the yoga teacher training, even though yoga is definitely not a religion, there was so the spiritual concepts took me right back to being at a Catholic Primary School, you know, that, you know, just the underlying current, I guess of love and compassion and kindness. So yeah, it was it was, I guess, my next step in my spiritual growth, and I think we're all we are I know, we're all spiritual beings. It's just some of us perhaps, don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge perhaps in a bit of denial, doesn't you know, embarrassed because it's a misunderstood concept. It's, you know, it is connected to some people connected to religion, but you can definitely be spiritual or religious. Absolutely. So, tell me about your children, Julie and your family? Yeah, um, I have a husband, Andrew have three adult children, Brittany, Tara and Liam 2927, and 22. So, I guess, from the perspective of motherhood, I'm in the, I'm in the advanced stages, I guess I've got I've got the wonderful gift of hindsight. So when I sort of had a look at the content we'd be discussing today, I've felt really blessed in that, you know, I can see it from all angles, having, you know, the pre pre kids life and then the during kids, and now almost the post kids in some ways. You've lived it all I have. Yes. So. So how do kids fit in with that? Obviously, the fitness industry and you're quite mobile, and you're moving a lot. How did that all fit in pregnancy? Well, oh, gee whiz. Well, with Brittany, my oldest I was when I was sick with all three of them for over half of the pregnancy, particularly with my first with Bret. So that was a huge steep curve, I had to sort of set aside the more high energy classes and I ended up moving into aqua aerobics teaching in the pool. Loved it. And I think what happened is I evolved into a definitely evolved into a better fitness instructor through it, because I perhaps appeal to a different demographic as well. Also have more empathy and more compassion for what other people are going through rather than just oh, look at me, I'm fit, you know, and I've got a G string. Suddenly, I was dealing with real people and real issues and mothers that can't do star dance because things happen when your mother. Absolutely. So it was, yeah, it was what needed to happen. Bring me into the real world. It was tough. You don't always get sleep when you've got a baby and Brittany just didn't sleep for the first five years of her life. So I was off and running on empty. It was it was a tough job. Even though it was so rewarding and really a super job for a new mom, because there's often a crash or a childcare involved at the gym. So I was lucky I had that support. Also could work my own hours. So we're working around when Andrew was home, unable to be home with the kids. So you touched on the tiring, so obviously your body was tired, but mentally How did you go then creating the classes? How did how did you approach that? I suppose if you were feeling a bit, not yourself, and perhaps didn't have as much time? Yeah, pre. I'll talk about pre my pre Les Mills days because before I became a Les Mills instructor, all of my classes were created by me. So the music and the choreography. Everything Yeah, usually knew who my audience and my class were going to be so I could tailor it to them. So it's probably the beginning of my personal training career in some ways. And I probably sort of prided myself on every class was layered with things we'd already visited or practiced, but then there was a new element And you'll never be. Yeah, exactly. So there was this continuation, there was a sense of familiarity from previous classes, but also a sense of adventure, and we're going somewhere and we're improving. Well, that went out the window when you baby because it's like, you have to use that tape again. And that that choreography because I just couldn't, I just couldn't, I couldn't, you know, find the time to think about it, let alone practice it, and you didn't have the time or the energy. So bit of treading water there for a year or so. But most people, you know, understood that and they were in the trenches with me, because a lot of them were new mums as well. And through that came great friendships a lot of support. Yeah, exactly. Which is so important. Even just someone to understand who can empathize is just, you know, can make the world of difference. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So before you set out on your having children adventure, did you sort of think about how your fitness life would change? Or did you sort of think, like, did you have people around you maybe that role model power to make it work in the fitness industry? Or just No, no, not at all. I was the first in my friendship group to have children. So honestly, our when I had bread, I'd never changed, or maybe even seen a nappy bean change and change one. And I rang the buzzer, and asked the nurses stitch, show me how to change the first nappy. And I had no qualms with that, because I really did not know what I was doing. Gee whiz, that that floors me right now. Go jokes about jumping into the deep end. So no, I didn't consider it, I probably the changes to my physical body would have been probably my number one concern. And, you know, I feel probably a lot of us did the same thing here in that it's focused on the pregnancy. And you don't focus so much on the actual motherhood side of things. And that goes for a lot longer than the pregnancy, actually, when you look back at it. Same with weddings and marriages, you know, the wedding, and then y'all hang on a minute, I'm gonna be married to this guy for hours. And so. So, yeah, I didn't I think the physical changes to my body were what sort of engulf me at that time. And having come from a background of having an eating disorder when I was in my late teens, and interestingly, getting into fitness is what brought me out of that hole. Because I started to respect my body more. So it was, yeah, I sort of been through that journey. And then suddenly, it was all going to change again. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was confronting for me. And that was probably my focus. And then once I learned how to change a nappy and feed the baby, like, sort of with all three kids, I went back to my work at the gym. Fairly quickly, I had other jobs on the side that I'd hadn't any lead from, but I all I've always worked in the fitness industry is at any given time, other than perhaps three or four weeks after giving birth. I retired when I had lamb my third and then they dragged me back. Keep your way, you know? So your children are late. You've just brought up laying? Yes. just reminded me. So your children spending a lot of time around the gym. It's rubbed off on all of you. Well, yeah, all of them. Yeah, it really has. It's funny because I tell the story Liam's first full sentence was we will we will rock you because because at this stage, I was teaching those meals classes and one of them was body pump. And of course learning choreography is a big part of it. music So wherever we went in a car Sorry kid. You know, the music was playing and bless him. I think he was you know, probably was old enough to string a sentence. Obviously, not very old. He was in his car seeing the back of the car when I pulled up and I heard this you know, right at the right time with the chorus, but I tend to motor off so that the music went off and there was still this little from the back behind me. We will we will walk you it really was at the same time as i Oh, my goodness, what have I done? So yeah, and I also my girls would play aerobics instructors, step instructors, and they would, they'd go around so we go to our friend's house and with my friend Louise also in the industry. My daughter's and her daughter would be moving on girls running their own little circuit class, really so my creativity rubbed off on name as well. And since then, my oldest daughter works in, in media bit for the Melbourne Storm Rugby League clubs. So, in sport, you know, she's she's, she's connected to sport and goes to the gym, loves, loves her fitness. My middle daughter Tara is a school teacher and also a yoga teacher. She went away to Bali a few years ago and became qualified as a yoga teacher. And then Liam is currently works in a gym in Adelaide, and he's a bodybuilder so yeah, he's he's gotten pretty good too. Oh, he's gone great guns. Yeah. Yeah, he's I don't know how he does it. Yeah, it's you obviously feel very proud of him. Yeah, super proud of all my kids. And I feel that, you know, dragging them along to the gym, and I never once pushed it on them. I certainly let them eat, like normal children. I wasn't, you know, pushy with their food or, you know, their, their exercise in any way. I just modeled what I would hope for them to absorb. And they have Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that. So let's chat about the fantastic word that we get thrown at us all the time that this mum guilt. Well, how do you feel about that? Julie? Well, I guess I touched on it a little bit a moment ago. My kids did get brought up in the gym. But I was incredibly lucky that I could take them to work with me. And that they could see me I guess achieving something. And being a mum, is my greatest ever achievement, let's let's not get that wrong. I feel that mum guilt is perhaps a label or a clump that we're all invited into. Once we become a mum, and it's expected of us and it's I don't think it's it's something that's unique to any of us where we all feel it. So therefore, is it a thing? You know, it's, you know, tree falls in the forest? Does anyone hear it? Is it a thing? Is it something? Is it just a label, it's I don't think it's an emotion, I don't think it's a feeling I just think it's a thing. And studies have shown that guilt doesn't necessarily reform your future behavior. And I thought about that, and I because I knew that this was one of you your topics. And I thought if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I've stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lighting me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children, I changed, I let go of it, I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So and I mean every you know to say that you've got mum guilt, everybody experiences guilt differently as well. And for me, the feeling of guilt is kind of like looking forward to some sort of future resentment. I know I'm gonna feel bad one day that I missed out on that first smile or the first step or whatever. I that might not happen. And be I'm going to I'm going to go with my yoga and meditation roots here. We can only live in the here in the now. So when I was with the kids, I tried as much as possible as possible to be with my kids. And when I wasn't with them, I tried to do the best job that I was doing with the support that I had. And I think I did and I guess as I said earlier I've got the the luxury now of sitting here with three grown adult children looking back going it all turned out okay. Yeah, maybe if you interview them it might be I don't think so. No, no, I think what we what we do worry and have these feelings and challenges in the here and now. We just got to stay in the here and now. Do the best we can. Do you think a lot of that comes from society's expectations or how you perceive yourself being judged by others. Definitely. I think it's expected that we will feel guilty will have mommy guilt RDMS them and oh you know how do you go Being away from them all day. And, you know, what's it like when you get home today, you know, and it's there is this expectation that that's how you're going to feel. So we feel it and it's like, you know, I think you maybe feel it, but Don't wallow in it. Just go, okay, everyone's feeling the same way I am. So just do the best I can and really be with your family when you're with them. And when you're not with them know that that's part of their journey to where if we've created this beautiful, amazing human, and we are meeting their, their needs as far as food, shelter, love. That's actually all they really need. As long as you're meeting those, the guilts really a wasted feeling. I've said that so well. Did you? Did you find that your that you needed to have something for yourself? Was it important for you to maintain that? Yes. Your sense of identity as Julie? Yes. Not just Julie mum? Yes, not Julie mom, not Julie wife, not Julie daughter, you know, it's interesting with the mom guilt thing, you move on into my stage of life. And now I have parent guilt. And for all the bad things I've ever said to my mum and dad, the way I judge them when they were bringing me up for not spending enough time with them now that, you know, my mum passed on in March and you know, the time that I didn't spend with her or couldn't spend with her or, you know? Yeah, I think I think we beat ourselves up too much. We can only be in the moment that we're in. That's wise words. So, you've mentioned you yoga, just February flee, I want to sort of bring that in. Even though you weren't necessarily practicing a lot of ego, you're when you had your children. You were doing your fitness and you came into yoga, or 1211 12. Zero, yeah. Did you find then being a mother, and this whole connection to Mother Earth and other concepts in exploring yoga, that you found a really deep connection that you could understand, or feel those concepts strongly because you're a mother, everything has evolved since becoming a mother. And speaking of Mommy get to do my yoga teacher training, I had to go, I had to go and live in Boston for a month. And I had incredible support to be able to do that. But I nearly came home after the first week, I was in tears every night, it was so hard. And it wasn't even really mommy guilt. It was I just missed them. But again, the thing that kept me there was that, you know, they I think Liam was only about 10. And the girls are a little older, sort of in high school. And I could see that me being away was enriching their relationship with their dad. And seeing him as part of their, their care is not that wasn't always just gonna be me and didn't always have to be me and their grandparents as well. So when I came back from that, I think all of our relationships changed a bit. We all appreciated each other a whole lot more. When I became a mum, say in the fitness industry, I definitely had a greater awareness and appreciation for the female body and started to research more about that aspect, you know, the hormonal hormonal fluctuations as an example, on a woman that might be training, you know, in the gym, or, you know, running or, you know, participating in sport. So that came into my personal training that came into my, my field of vision. Suddenly, yeah, and then of course, as you head towards menopause, that's now also coming in. And then of course, with yoga. Yeah, when you become a yoga teacher, you realize, you really realize this connection to all beings. You you also realize a connection to think something that's greater than yourself. And realize you have this responsibility of passing down your wisdom. And I'm going to talk a bit about perhaps, hear the, the maid and the mother and the crone and the cranes a horrible word. I'm gonna get creative and come up with a high priestess. Oh, yeah. Because I'm a crane. And I want to be called a chrome. Thanks very much. Yeah. So the maiden is, you know, the years when as a female, you're a child or adolescent. You're going through puberty. You're laying the foundation for your the future. You're You're growing and developing physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And then you move into that creative time when you're the mother, where you you're nurturing, and you're, you're providing the shelter, the food, the life sustaining elements to either your children or your family or your pets, whatever it might be, that's your stage in life. And then you move through that into menopause and beyond. And unfortunately, as in Western society, unlike perhaps a the ancient societies in India, where yoga originated, where the the elders are revered, for their wisdom and their guidance, where in our society, we're kind of cast aside we're not cool. We're not Instagram worthy, where, you know, yeah, that was, you know, back in your day, that doesn't count anymore. And yeah, it doesn't. You know what, I'm so glad that I had my kids when I did, because I think we got it easier. But I'm in that stage now where my job I see it is to provide some wisdom and guidance and a shining mite. So that, I guess that's why I came into yoga, because I felt that there was no more moving on girl for the locker room, there was so much more in me than that. And what was the next thing so? Yoga was that that awakening within me? I really miss it. I'm like, in a hiatus at the moment, I'm calling it my chrysalis. I might have been alone, perhaps I was having that come out as a moth. But Kevin? Yeah, my studio, I had to unfortunately, close because of COVID. And then I've developed type one diabetes. So I, you know, divine timing, because I would have I was really, really ill. And it would have been a real struggle to run a yoga studio. So I figured, okay, I've been almost shoved into this cocoon. And um, I was I was fighting that for a while. But then we know what happens inside cocoons. Amazing things. So I'm just going to settle in here for a while. A little bit longer yet. Yep. Build up my strength a little more. And don't worry. There's there's things happening. If there's ideas, and I'm being so creative, right now, probably more creative than I've ever been. It's just that it's all in my mind. The mind is ready. And the body's saying I haven't your wings aren't quite ready yet. That's right. Yeah. So let's talk about then the creativity involved in when you you organizing your yoga classes and the thought and so I've always admired and to tell people that Julie has this beautiful, big, it's a double like a full big book. And she sets it out in front of every class. And when I realized what it was, I used to get a bit sneaky and have a look, because I'll always like to bring up the front. Oh, excellent at doing that posting. And it's all color coded, which is like, it's beautiful. And so much thought and effort and passion goes into that. So if you wouldn't mind divulging some of your secrets of how you come up with your classroom. In some ways, that's my favorite part. And that's the creativity. You know, I can't sit here and say that someone's got that hanging on a wall somewhere or that someone came to, you know, see my show, but I guess they did in some ways. And I've often joked that I'm, I'm my, if I could give myself a title, it's facilitator of change. That's what I've always helped creating bedding to create create some change in people whether it was through sit ups and burpees or, or yoga practice or meditation. And my favorite part always has been when I think about it, and thank you for making me think about it. Allison, has been creating what I'm about to present. And I guess when I think deeper about it, everything I've done, whether it's that aerobics class in the leotard or now my yoga, it's almost a performance. I that I've planned and choreographed and researched and scripted. You know, back in my aerobics days or the Les Mills days, you spending an hour on stage, smiling, pretending something doesn't hurt when it's killing you inside. is doing a good job of stringing people along for the ride if you and no matter what happened that morning if the kids will run like we need them breakfast or you throw him in the car or car break down whatever it literally is, it's a performance you need on your happy face. And pretty much everyone in the class was creating that same sense as well in that you know, their kids might have been the ones that wouldn't eat their breakfast but that's okay because right now they're in the kids club and I'm having an hour to my set Yeah, so and then yeah with my yoga book, if you want to call it that the volume of my my lesson plans are go with a theme and I attach my theme to whatever's happening in nature. I'm very much connected to the natural world love love the ocean love the moon love the sun, love the seasons love a forest love a mountain. So I'll work out what's going on maybe astronomically or with the moon cycle or with the season you know, maybe an equinox or a solstice or whatever is going on. Or maybe it's a current world event. I remember I had to teach a body balanced class on the day that we all woke up to 911 has possibly been taken but people still turned up for it because they needed something. And that's what tells me that spirituality is so such an integral part of us so yeah, that's that's where I start and then sometimes the colors are a code sometimes they're just pretty colors to be honest. And just changing textures over but sometimes they are a COVID or I might be working with shockers or with a season or or just my favorite colors so yeah, from that that foundation of where I'm coming from then research okay what you know, I know the basic structure of a yoga class I mean learn the very basics and fundamentals through my yoga teacher training. So research okay, what physically do we need in our bodies to perhaps deal with this time or settle any negative things that might arise from say a full moon or or enhance things you know, that we might want to bring to the surface and deal with or shine light on? And then from there, you know, working out okay, how does one pose fit with another? Am I is there is it a balanced class physically? What am I then, you know, what am I going to say? How am I going to present this? beginnings, middles endings, you know, is there a meditation that could go with this? Is there breathwork? What breathwork can go with is each all of my classes will have those elements. It's not just oh, moving on, girl. Yeah, it's definitely this, you know, it's the whole shebang. Yoga should always be breathing, movement, mindfulness. When I owned my own studio, I had the luxury of being able to look at who was booked into that class, and then maybe working out any modifications I might need to offer for people or perhaps just, again, tailoring it along to whoever I I knew was going to be in the class. Did you find that your how you were feeling came out in like, if you feel like you need? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, so many times, and I've said it to yoga teachers, when I've been to their class, people will say, Oh, how did you know that was exactly what I needed. And I you've seen I've said it's because, you know, we're all connected together. Yeah, you know, often, I would have, I've probably admitted in class many times, this ain't for me, this is for you. This is for me. I know you don't want to expose but I do. Or I need this. And so you know, it's tongue in cheek, but yeah, we, we, you know, if I'm feeling the effect of, let's say, the autumn equinox, where we're about to shift into winter, where, you know, letting go of those warm balmy days and you know, the joy of summer and from smart meters like and we're, you know, physically we're shifting, it's getting colder. We're feeling we're starting to eat stodgy foods and it's just like, oh, here we go again. And, you know, we're all feeling the same. So no matter what I present, whether I think it's, you know, for me or them, it's for all of us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just want to touch on your, your name of your yoga studio, one lifestyle, one yoga and lifestyle. That is important to you to embody that. It's not just the poses, the shapes you make, it's an You take it away from the mat and put it into your life integrated into your life. That's something you're passionate about, ah, so much. So, I mean, I think because I came, because of that journey I've just spoken about I came from, well look at me, I'm fed to, Hey, sit down, be humble, you know, there's more to it than running around like a crazy person, you realize, you do realize that when you've once you've had children, that's for sure. There's more people in the world than just you. And everything you do, has an effect on other beings. And if we want to focus on the lifestyle, part of it, so one yoga and lifestyle, I wanted to include the word lifestyle, because Yoga is a lifestyle, it's, you know, it's not that people think, Oh, it's a religion, it's a cult, it's just, it's a form of exercise. It's none of those things. It's a lifestyle. It was, you know, founded 1000s of years ago. And it's still around. So it's not a fad. It's not, it's still very relevant, more and more so. And what we do on the mat, the lessons we learn about our physical body to start with, and then as we evolve about mental, spiritual, emotional bodies, we can take into our everyday life. And it's really as as as a yoga practitioner. It's important that we do that, because then we make the world a better place. And that just sounds so Walt Disney, but honestly, that's what it's all about. It's about being the best person we can. So that everybody around us, and if you get if you get that many people trying to be the best, and do the best nicest things, you know, the the I don't know what the remarks are. Yeah, the ripple effect. Yeah. Yeah. It's really important to me that people come to yoga. It's there. There's, that's a whole sentence, it's important that people come to yoga force. Yeah. And when they do consistently, they will realize exactly what I've just said that they might come for the stretch, they might come because they're tired. They might come because they can't sleep. They might come because they've got a pain in the back. And if they keep coming, they'll eventually look back and go, Well, I'm coming for a whole different reason. Now. I'm coming for that story about Goddess Kali. I'm, I'm coming because I need to slow down and breathe deeper. I'm coming because my mind is so full. I need to just be still and silent. And like you said the people that came to that body balance class on that night of 911 Like just needing comfort, I suppose. And community connection in a really positive way. Yeah. And they probably need to needed to do it. In a space that felt safe. A yoga class always feels safe. Yeah, and they needed Yeah, they they needed perhaps. That mothering. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else you'd love to share to leave, it's important to you that we might not have mentioned? Yeah, I think apart from like my work, if you want to call it that, I've never felt like I've worked. I've been so blessed with it all over the years and had great support, so that I could always do what I've always done. And looking back, I'd like to think I'm a good example of a mum that knew what was best for her knew what was best for your kids and let go of any guilt or expectation and just did it when it felt right. And that it can all turn out well in the end. Moving away from that, though, the way other ways that we can be creative because, you know, there's there's a lot of pressure on us now. And you know, because of social media as well, we're always expected to achieve you know, and to show what we've been doing with our time heaven forbid that we might just sit around and not do anything. Yeah. And you know, the only thing we did today might have been mopped the floor that's not good enough, you know, well, if you didn't post it on Instagram, it didn't really happen. Exactly. So you know, I sort of again if this coming on this podcast has been great for me because you made me reflect back on how did it change when I do you become a mother and I was at home or and I just got into baking and cooking and the kids would do that with me and and craft was big on craft as in craft groups. And I was like, you know, I was managing a big craft group at one stage. I didn't get any craft done. As usual was like I was never as fit as I could be because I was I was at the front like yelling and everybody. Well, there was not getting any craft done because I was organizing for everybody. But it was it was great. I It's creating a crop group. And yeah, so you know, yeah, I've got quilts. And honestly, if there hadn't been Instagram back, then every day, my house would have had different decor because I had, I just was rotating the rooms all the time. I just loved being home and doing that. So, you know, that's if that's how you're being creative. That's how you're being creative. And you know, I think we're all creative. Oh, I totally agree. You know, we we've all got art and music and performance inside of us. And you've really got to acknowledge that no matter how grand it is, or how, you know, mop the floor and sing the song. With you and you created something. Exactly. Yeah. I didn't want to ask too. How is it different now? Your creativity, and obviously the, the ways you can do it and how you do it. You don't have any kids living at home now. So that must be a different sort of vibe and feel at home. Yeah, I mean, also, because I'm not regularly teaching at the moment. I'm sort of doing a few pop up classes here and there. So yeah, everything really has changed. But yeah, now if I've got a class to plan, I, I'm sorry, not organized. I procrastinate to the last minute because you don't have to be and quite often, what will happen is like Tara being a schoolteacher, she'll come home for the holidays. This isn't like, Oh, hey, my glasses have been caught out with my pants down. So you tend to get a little bit laps at AZ cool, I think. I think you're at your peak of organizational powers when you have kids at home. And yeah, also, you know, like little things like if I'm trying to make a new playlist or something I have, I've had to learn how to do it. Just get the kids to help me ring him up. Brother Yeah, so it's definitely changed. Yeah, yep. We're very, very lucky today on the podcast. Julie's gonna lead us to a meditation. And it's one of my favorites, actually is my complete favorite. So over to you, Julie. Thanks. So today's meditation is metta Karuna. And this literally means a loving kindness meditation. So I will begin by finding a comfortable position and this is whatever is comfortable for you. So you can be seated you can lie down. I recommend that you make yourself warm. So find perhaps something to place over your lap. Make sure you've got socks on or some long sleeves and as you find yourself comfortable, close down your eyes. Remembering that in meditation, all we really need to do is just to be present to just stay alert and aware. Just listening to my voice being in the here and now the meta Karuna meditation I'm doing today begins with shine, showing love kindness and compassion to the self. So as is the Buddhist tradition, we will send our love or kindness and compassion to ourselves first. So I'm going to recite a small mantra and what you need to do is listen and then repeat the words silently to yourself lying as you are, visualize yourself, smiling, happy, peaceful and free. And as you visualize yourself smiling, say to yourself, may I be happy? May I be peaceful? May I be free of all suffering? Next, we will visualize before us somebody that we love unconditionally, who loves us in return This can be the first person you think of because I'm sure there are many people and very people, perhaps pets that you love so just the first person or pet that comes to mind visualize them before you smiling back and send your loving thoughts to this person may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering now we'll bring to mind somebody neutral somebody that you know and acquaintance, somebody that you don't have any strong feelings towards. So this might be somebody that serves you in a shop might be somebody that you see on television, it might be a sporting hero, somebody that you don't really know but you you see them often and you have neutral feelings for them. Visualize this person smiling, happy then send this person your love and your kindness and your compassion May you be happy May you be peaceful may be free of all suffering and now, for a challenge we visualize somebody who challenges us it might be somebody who you've had a disagreement with it might be somebody that just rubs you up the wrong way pushes your buttons if this is too painful for you, that's okay perhaps just return to visualizing yourself and sending yourself the love and the kindness and the compassion. But if you can visualizing this person who challenges you and see them happy and relaxed and smiling and smile at them in return and send them your metric arena May you be happy really peaceful. May you be free of all suffering and finally as vast as it is, visualize the whole world all beings the entire universe before you all beings deserve to be happy and peaceful and free So visualizing all beings we send out our meta Karina May all beings be happy May all beings be peaceful May all beings be free. Son, the Shang, Asian baby keeping your eyes closed, just becoming aware of your surroundings again. If you're lying on the floor, just roll over to your right side body and curl up there for a moment. And then taking your time whenever you're ready. Use your hands to brace yourself back up and take a seat so that we're all seated. Just pause for a moment eyes remaining closed and just noticing the effects of our meditation may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering thank you so much for coming. Enjoy. It's been an absolute pleasure and sharing your thoughts and experience because we That's thanks, Alison. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic man

Singer, songwriter and mum of 2 Alison Newman chats to artists, musicians, writers and other creatives about what it is like being a mother - and being an artist. Juggling the day to day, retaining your identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", the pros, the cons and everything in between Be inspired by artistic + creative mothers who are passionate about continuting their work, no matter what. Latest Article READ HERE About Me ... and the changes Hi there I'm Alison, its so great to have you here! I'm a mum of 2 boys and a singer/ songwriter, so I know first hand how challenging it can be to balance your role as a mother with the intense need to create. I started this podcast to reach out to other creative mums, in a time of my own crisis, to see how they were handling things, but since then it has turned into so much more. The aim now being - to encourage mothers to see the value in their creating and to try to support them to know that they are not alone - challenge cultural norms and break down a few patriarchal stereotypes along the way. Recently, in May 2023 I my work hours changed, and I knew I wouldn't have the time or the capacity to continue the podcast each week as I have since July 2021, Instead of giving up my labour of love, I looked at how else I could do things, and I started a written interview series in June 2023. From time to time you will still see podcasts pop up, Id o have time to do a couple every month, but you'll enjoy reading about the amazing creative mothers we have in our societies, all around the world. Never miss an episode - SUBSCRIBE to my newsletter Email First Name Last Name Join Our Mailing List Thanks for subscribing! Would you like to be a guest? Email Your name Tell me a bit about yourself and what you create, ages of children, etc ... Send Thanks for submitting! I will be in touch soon x Get a taste of Alison's new album WOLF which she is currently working on. Branding + logo design by “This feels like the podcast version of Rachel Power’s book The Divided Heart and I think it’s what we need.” Katherine Collette - author and podcaster "We have International Women's Day where everyone posts on their social media how good it is to support women. But Alison is example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work she's doing." Fleur Harris - illustrator and designer "Alison has a charming and disarming interview style. This makes for a podcast that proves to be a great companion, throughout its entended library of interviews." Steve Davis - podcaster, critic, comedian and educa tor.

Alison Newman, Emma Anderson and Emma's husband John Anderson make up the trio Alemjo. T hey create new age / meditation/relaxation music. Alemjo was born in early 2015 when they were approached to create a live musical experience for a meditation class. Their debut album Music for Meditation was released in August 2015. This album was created to accompany a chakra themed Yoga class, and they have performed it live twice since the launch. John plays and produces the layered instrumental sounds through the use of guitars, keyboard and effects. Emma and Alison bring their gentle and intuitive vocals, together with percussive instruments and Tibetan singing bowls. Alison and Emma have been singing together with whole lives and have relished the unique creative process that this project has brought them. John has been creating and playing music since his teens and enjoys a range of music from relaxation to extreme metal. The Alemjo project shows the endless bounds of his creativity.

Judy Richards Australian mixed media artist S2 Ep66 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) My guest today is Judy Richards, an artist, mother of 3 and grandmother of 8 from Mount Gambier Australia, and the first grandmother I've hosted on the podcast. Judy has been creative her whole life, she always loved to colour in and draw and learned to crochet as a 10 year old. Her mother would always buy always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries, and Judy would make blankets for everyone, brothers and for her dad's truck. As a 13 year old Judy learned to sew on her mum's old treadle sewing machine, her first major sewing project was a high school skirt, because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens and when she had children she would sew most of their clothes. In the late 80s and throughout the 90s Judy taught herself to paint, no social media back those days or YouTube to learn on, so Judy dove into the books. In 1995 Judy opened her own art studio called Omega Rose Crafts and Gifts, she painted, made dolls, quilts, you name it, Judy did it... she'd be up to all hours of the morning. The studio closed after 2.5 years when her husband's business circumstances changed, so Judy started selling at the local markets, and did so every Saturday for 7 years. By 2003 she was feeling so burnt out, Around 2010 Judy got back into drawing and penwork and occasionally painting, selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creating today, her favourites being crocheting and painting. As 40 year old Judy did some more study and became a nail technician, still utilising her creativity but on nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of covid on her business, Judy is now looking for her next challenge. Judy lives by the motto, If you don't know how to do something, learn it and try it, and you can't say you can't do something, until you have tried it! This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, anxiety and domestic violence Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing 2 brothers, one to suicide and the other alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and used her creativity to keep her busy and would lean into it if she wasn't feeling mentally strong. Today you'll hear chatter and background noise from Judy's 3 year old grandson Leo. Follow Judy on instagram Connect with the podcast - instagram / website Christian Author Francine Rivers Judy's work in progress painting If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. My guest this week is Judy Richards. Judy is an artist, a mother of three and a grandmother of eight from Mount Gambia in Australia. The first grandmother that I've had on the podcast, Judy has been creative her whole life. She always loved to coloring and draw, learn to crochet as a 10 year old and her mother would always buy a few balls of wool for her when she did her groceries. Judy loved making blankets for everyone in the family. As a 13 year old Judy learn to sew on her mom's old treadle sewing machine. Her first major project was a high school skirt. Because mum couldn't afford to buy one. She used to make most of her clothes in her late teens. And when she had her own children, she would say most of their clothes to in the late 80s. And throughout the 90s. Judy taught herself to paint no social media back in those days or YouTube to learn on. So Judy dove into the books. In 1995. She opened her own art studio called omega rose crafts and gifts where she taught art and painted made dolls. Quilts. You name it, Judy did it. She'd be up until all hours of the morning. The studio closed after two and a half years when her husband's business circumstances changed. So Judy started selling at the local markets and did so every Saturday. By 2003. She was feeling so burnt out. Around 2010. Judy got back into drawing and pen work and occasionally painting selling a bit but doing it more to keep busy and she loves giving them away. She's still very creative today, her favorites being crocheting and painting. As a 40 year old, Judy did some more study and became a nail technician. Still utilizing her creativity but on clients nails. After working from home for 20 years, and feeling the effects of COVID on her business. Judy is now looking for her next challenge. This episode contains discussions around suicide, depression, alcoholism, and anxiety and domestic violence. Judy has experienced many heartbreaks in her family, losing two brothers one to suicide and the other to alcoholism. Judy feared depression for a long time and uses her creativity to keep her busy. And she leans into it if she isn't feeling mentally strong. Julie lives by the motto if you don't know how to do it, learn it. Try it. You can't say you can't do something until you've tried it. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a great list of international resources can be accessed by the website, www dot Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you hear on today's podcast is from my trio, LM Joe which is myself, my sister Emma and her husband John. And we play new age and ambient music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. And throughout the podcast today. You'll hear from a little visitor Judy's three year old grandson Leo. Thank you so much for coming on duty. Yeah, it's such a pleasure to meet you again. But to be in your home today, this is the first time I've actually taking my gear out and not being in my studio. So this is very exciting. It's exciting for me to lie to you and that's funny because that's what is going on. Yeah. I've watched a couple of your things. Yes, that's what it is. And that's the truth isn't it? Like nothing ever goes perfectly how you expect it and dance and that's why I think you know, we live in a world and everybody expects everything to be perfect. Your Home has to be perfect. Life has to be perfect. You have to have the perfect job, you have to have everything perfect. That's not life. Life doesn't work like that. I didn't grow up in the most perfect environment growing up as a child. But I had a mother who loved us so much. And even though my dad left, and my mom was me and my four brothers, and it wasn't easy, because she was a very sick lady. But she taught me who I want it to be. Yeah, I wanted to be like her, or wanting to be that woman that would. I'm a very forgiving person. I don't hold grudges, because I just I think life's worth it. And she taught me about being creative. Like, you know, she, well, that's crushering at 19 years old. Yeah. It's my brother's a blanket, manner blanket. And she would do the groceries and she'd bring home a couple balls a wall, that the next one like, you know, and then by the time I was 13, I was dressmaking. So I've been creative, my whole life. Just doesn't stop. I can't sit down. That's terrible. That's part of life, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not. It's not a bad sort of habit to have really, you know, to keep yourself busy and active minds. And I believe, you know, people go, Oh, I can't do that. You haven't tried. That's the biggest thing. My whole life. I like a challenge. In my artwork, I like a challenge. I'll try something totally new. And I thought, What am I doing that, you know, I never let it get to me and, and then, you know, I've got children, so and now they're out, and now I've got grandchildren and but it's just, it's just life, you just got to make the most of it. And I guess then you would have, it would have been important for you to instill that those sort of ideals into your own children growing up. And I'm really proud of who my daughters have become, you know, life's not always easy, you know, and I and I see that in our lives. And I've watched a couple of dollars struggle here in life at times, and I just encourage them to keep going. And, and my youngest daughter, Megan, I always say to her, he remind me of my mom, you're stronger than you think. And you'll nothing will get you there now, but you'll get through it like you know, and I think that's what you've got to look at in life that you can allow things to pull you down. And that's where depression can come in. Or you can allow life just to fight for what you believe in. And I've always believed in my marriage, I've always fought through it and we've had some really tough times but and instill that into my kids it's not perfect think this is the thing these days with all the social media that's on the same now like everyone shows that you know the the perfect photos and the perfect snapshots in life and it's not reality. It's just that tiny moment. That's right, you know, but then if you're feeling a bit insecure or you know you're you're a bit down on yourself or your circumstances that can make a massively negative difference to absolutely and I think the worst part about social media is how you look. It's like if you don't look a certain way, you're not good enough for society. That's not how it is. Now I get a lot of ladies that always look nice. It's not that hard. Like I have a skirt and a jumper on today like we all dressed up. It's just who I am. I like clothing and I like to look nice, but it's not hard to actually nearly 90% of my class come out of Kmart yeah It is not hard. I used to dress Mike all the time when I had my children. We lived on one wage, so there wasn't money to spend on clothing. And so my son che was sitting on my kitchen table all the time. My husband got so sick of it that he built me around the best. We could have the kitchen table for you, especially when I was being creative. And I was doing the markets and didn't have the social media that we have today. So I when I started painting, and then I had friends asked me to teach so they're not started teaching. And then in 97, I owned art studio, and it was called omega rose crafts and gifts. And so two and a half years, I hit that studio. And you know, I dropped the kids off to school, and I'll go to the studio and spend the day there. And either I would get to pick them up, or Pete's dad would pick them up, drop them off at the studio and they would go into their classroom and do their schoolwork or that go to their grandparents, either one and but it was a really good experience. For me it was about learning how to run my own business. The goods and the bads. Yeah, because there's always that. And then my husband's business partner decided he wanted out. So we had to buy our main breadwinner. And so my studio had to close. And then I was like, What am I gonna do with all this stuff was crazy. I had so much. So I went out to Fletcher job markets for five years. And so every Saturday, I'll say every Saturday for five years. And so I kept making stuff, making stuff making stuff. And then it came to the point where I got burnt out. And I think that's why now when I come to create the creative side of things. Sometimes I'll start something and I'll go out and start selling there. But the last couple of years, I've just liked the handout, I'm not doing that anymore. Because you've burned yourself out. And if you're not careful, that desire that you enjoyed, becomes a headache. And I loved crochet, or crochet blankets, and I sell some. But if I don't, I don't care. Yeah. There's no pressure. I just finished one I thought I had a solid it's not so I'm not fast. It's in my color. So I can always keep it in the box. I love giving away stuff as presents. When the grandchildren started coming along, I started crocheting and making fresh toys. Love it. Love it might I might have made hates. And I did a couple of markets. And one market I did a couple of years ago. And people are just like, Oh no, that's to do I'm not paying that is hours and days. And I'm just like, and me. I do stuff to make money. I do stuff because I enjoy it. But if I can sell something, it's fine. But I never put a high price on something. So I just figured that's the price I've put on it. Either pay for it or go with that. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's something I'm noticing a lot on social media at the moment is that people who make pain making things are actually you know, standing up for themselves and saying this isn't mass produced in some far off country by people who don't get paid very much. You know, this is like you said, it takes so long it's you know, you've got all these years of skills behind you that you'd build up. You shouldn't feel like you have to justify what you what you're asking for. It's like Dammit, this is what it costs you know, like you said you're not putting like a tremendous mark on top of it. It's like nine manufacturing materials and just a little bit extra. Yep. Yeah, I'm happy with that. I you know, kids are all grown up and gone. Now. I've got eight grandchildren and eight grandchildren, but only have three here. And I just say I've got little Leo today and he's just he's just my baby. You just loves me. It's just my grandma but you know and the rest of the in Queensland so that's really hard because I don't get to see them that often. But we keep in contact with one another But you know, and having that enjoyment with your family is so important, because before you know I've gone yeah. And I don't have much of my family left, because my mom died a long time ago. And I've lost a couple of brothers. And so I was always I've got my girls now, because I've been 20 years. And Megan spent on four and a half years. And I'm glad parts here, she nearly left but she came back. And she's just finishing I got nowhere. So at least I have someone but you don't realize how important family is. Until you don't have it, you sort of take it for granted a little bit. Don't ever let that just there. And they'll always be there. And then when they're not. Yeah, that's it. Lot My wife has some very nice kids. But he sounds like you've got the right attitude, though to, you know, to keep going, you have to believe. And my faith in God is the biggest part of my life. And I stepped away from it for a really long time. And I watched my life full and a whole year, I watched my marriage and he broke up quite a few times. And only a few years ago, I decided it was like there was something missing. And I decided I know what's missing. That's my faith in God. And, and it's strong, and it's what has kept me going over my life. And as I shared with you, I've watched depression, destroy my family, my brothers. I had a brother, eight years ago commit suicide. And him and I were not quite twins, but near enough. We're only 10 months apart. And so him and I were extremely close. And so that just rocked my world. I thought losing my mum when she was only 48 rocked my world until my brother died. So if you just have to. And people say to me, you don't get it, dude, you've never suffered it. No, I have lived it. Yeah, I have. I've been that other person sitting there living with it with all my brothers. And I've had two to three girlfriends that I have suffered extremely, really bad. I've got a really close friend that's going through lots right now. And I'm just there for her. You know, you can't and sometimes lose people. I lost one friend. It got to the point it was destroying me. Yeah. So you have to be careful. You do have to protect yourself. When it's your family. That's a little bit hard sometimes, but you do it. You have to go. Sorry. Yeah, you know, my brother's get that one that I've got here. It's not well, and the other one needs to wait. So it's just my two baby brothers. I've got left. And they suffer really, really bad. And it's really hard watching it. It's really hard watching it. So for many years, I had a fear of depression. The fear was, am I going to come down with that to watching my dad, and all my brothers pay for all attempted suicide. And it's it's heartbreaking. And so my faith is what has kept me. I truly believe my faith has kept me strong. Because I don't have a bad day. We all have bad days. And what do I do when I have a bad day? I pick up a book or I go into my painting like pick up the chromosomes that project I focus on something totally different. Yeah, get your mindset changed around My motto in life is today my mum was because she was so sick. My mum was a chronic asthmatic. From the day she was born to the day she died. And, and she was a very sick lady, but her motto in life was tonight. She would say, Well, yesterday, it's done. What can you do about it? Yep, don't let it destroy him. So what do we all do? Everybody likes the pest, control them, destroy them. And then we all stress about tomorrow. It hasn't even happened. Like, you know, someone asked me once, but how do you make plans? Okay, I'll make plans. That's That's simple. I don't stress about God, is this gonna happen? Is that gonna happen? I don't, I don't focus on that. I focus on today, I enjoy my day. Even if I don't do anything, and I'm sharing all day doesn't matter. I enjoy my day. And having eight grandchildren. Because being a grandmother is totally different from being on with your friends. Yeah. I loved being a mom. That was that something I absolutely loved. But having grandchildren. It's Sorry. It's what's so special. So special. I was there when the first two were born. And, and not being around five of them is pretty hard sometimes. Yeah. But the three that I have here, I spend as much time as I can. And I've been looking after Leo, every fortnight since he was born. So both could have some her time. And I just love it. I'll set their places like Grandma, Grandma Grandma that's so sweet, really sweet. When the kids were growing up and you're making you're making clothes, what are the things we're doing? At that time when the kids were growing up? I had just started teaching myself to paint. I tried to cut the class and send them thinking, oh, that didn't teach me anything. So I was determined to learn and how do you learn back in the old days, we never had YouTube. books, books, books. I just had a cupboard full of books and so teach myself to paint. Yeah, it was just high time. I don't know if you've ever heard about high tide. Yeah, we used to be at a Baptist church. Yeah, that was the go to. For us mums, yes mums. And it's quite sad. That's not around anymore, because I think there'd be a lot of young mums here that would benefit from it. But it was great because they had all these different craft groups. And so each month, you'd go from one to another to another. So you're learning different techniques. So you would learn something new. And like, you know how the modeling clay earrings are really been thought yeah, yes. Do I come back then? Yeah, I still got a brooch that I made. And, you know, just learning new things. I was always wanting to learn new things. And you know, even in dressmaking, you would learn that you'd say something and I'm like, by looks interesting, or I want to have a go there. And I remember my girlfriend Tracy, she actually gets in Queensland so so we still keep in touch. But she was going as well and then we'd get asked to teach. Yes, like, Whoa, dude, you can do that really? Well. Do you want to teach for us? I suppose. And I never we did these puff paint jump or year? Yeah, I asked my girls about oh my goodness. I didn't try Cisco. So I still talk about those puff paint jumpers. But so far, I mean, but the things we used to do, yeah, but ya know, they were good. times, like, you know, and I just think today I got a lot of social media, I watch a lot of home decor shows. And what, what inspires me now I see a lot of women out there building their own furniture and doing their houses. And I think that's amazing. Because I think you've got to have the mindset. Well, I don't know how to talk, but I'm going to try. Yes. And I think that is a really important mindset. Because as I say to people, you can't say you can't do something like this, you have to. I'm teaching myself watercolor. That's a whole new kettle of fish. I had a friend round the other day, my husband was away for the weekend. And so we did a bit of watercolor. And she said, Oh, look how much you've done. Do and I'm finding it easier, the more I practice is practice it. And it's like anything you do the same. You just can't say you can't do something. Because, you know, because there's a lot of people out there today, I suppose in a kid's generation. Don't know how to sell a button. Don't know how to cook properly. Because that guy can't do it. Yeah. Get out and try. Like, I'm learning to sew, I made my school uniform. Oh, wow. Because my dad didn't want to spend the money that it was gonna cost because even if cabling just strike gambling school skirts, I went to grant was still like $70. And back then that was a lot of money. And so I had this horrible skirt that I have plastic wasted. The boys would pick on me that pull it down. It was terrible. And so my mum brought some gambling, and that's I use it in my class at school. And my school I put a zip in a pencil case when I can make a skirt law, like, you know, for asking my teacher to I have to make a pencil case. And she said yes, it's a part of the class. I said, is it about a zip? She said, Yeah, well, I'm making my skirt for school. Why can't Why didn't zip in that? And she's like, Oh, well, there's no reason why. So I went from there and from there but my dress making just yet so it was good that you your teacher recognized, you know that you have that curiosity and that interest and supportive that you know, I think that's important. Yeah, to do that. Yeah, absolutely. I've taught a lot of things or these, you know, I've helped people to paint draw, or I've tried to question in class that was not easy. Yeah. Because so many different people at different stages. And I remember one class of you I just didn't stop I was just like, you pretty full on. A lot of people say, Oh, God teach us how to make those toys. And oh, can you crochet back to me, where do you think? A few. I so it's really robust, isn't he? Yeah. He's beautiful. So I'm doing just a few plank beers at the moment. Yeah. When my youngest daughter had a baby this year and I did her HIPAA bids and triple B's and stuff like that. And because I crush it baby blankets, I'm gonna do a couple of baby funds. And hopefully I can sell those so because that Not something you can just identify isn't it? Yeah, it's like when I was a baby, like I'm in the, the era of, of all that handmade, everything was made with love and special individual pieces. And then everything's just called mass produced company, that sort of stuff. And I feel like people are craving for that. And individual saving is by this very long. Yeah, I grow up so sleazy. And I think, also, like my mum used to say, back in her day, and we were dressed like baby babies for quite a long time. Yeah, yeah. held here in the zone. Actually gorgeous close out the best unless the other day looking at something kind of like, Oh, my goodness, I need another baby. Or I often get like that with girls clothes, because I've got two boys. And I've got a nice, so if I ever see something curious, Oh, get that for Ruby, you know, like into bike? Shop for boys kids. Yeah, so, but it's just crazy. Time just flies like, kind of 60s Just like I was about to turn 40 next year. And it's like, if you're 40. I'm the late 60s. Where's that time. But I think life is special. When I turned 50 I celebrated my 50th not just for me, but for my mom who never made 50 Because I thought she never got to this momentum of turning 50 which every year is upon. And a lot of people don't like to celebrate their birthdays, but it's an important part of our life. You know, it's just, and that milestone of 50. Like you said your mom's 48 Like, did that when you turned 48? Did you sort of go? Like, yeah, I noticed when Pete turned 48 Because he's a couple of years older than me. But then when I turned 48 online and see my mom because of her next sickness looks probably 1015 years older than what she was. So I'm like, 48 so young. Like it's so young. And why was unable to me it felt like it was only just beginning. Like it Yes. I'm coming up 60 In fact, nowadays we want to put 60 was really Oh, no, no, sorry, people. It's funny because I was the same I used to think 16 was really old. And then when Mum turned 66 It's not like anything. Like literally, like you said, you said you're not even you're not even like you hopefully, you know over halfway when you're 50 But you know, it's like, I don't I it's just did you have grandmothers used to dress older or subtle? Like, what? What might you do? Really all right now. I'm in coloring my hair for probably five, six years now. I just got it every now and then in summer. I put a couple of highlights in it, but that's about it. Because the cost factor is just getting too expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to say but then when I think about it, I look at peace parents and like Pete states money coming up 94 Just to kind of just raise any still leaves home, so it's a good effort. It's mum died. I think she was 86. And yeah, I think she always looked a lot older than what she was. I think it does. I think today we dress how we feel, you know? And when they go by you can't dress like that anymore because you're like the other 60 I'm gonna wear what I want. I'm not I haven't got the skin out everywhere and you know, I'm not trying to be like on 21 But yeah, that's what I want to dress like a no way either. Yeah, yeah. I reckon you know how everyone used to keep like the old ladies used to get that blue REITs and that here that they get like set they'll get their permits. Yes. Yeah, I reckon that had something to do with it. Definitely not gonna do. I wonder if that I've just like disappear out of the world. And it's not doing When I was talking before about it's never too late to learn new things. I have a camera now ticket 14. Yeah, I was actually I was gonna ask you that, you know, text sorry. Yeah, I, like I said, my price started to burn me out because it was like, I'd be up from one o'clock, two o'clock three o'clock in the morning making stuff ready for the market and stuff like that. And I remember I was doing a big fate I did a big fair, Tennyson, when they used to have a big fairs. And we had another one come up and I was just going to do this. And it was sold out in a day. Wow. And we have two days. And I'm like, so I was up till four o'clock in the morning, trying to get more stuff done to take the next day just to look like it was something there. And I remember saying to my husband, I don't think I can do this anymore. He said, Well, I said I'm just exhausted. I just can't do it. And the joys probably tape been taken out of it. Because it became too much of a job. Not an enjoyment. And so I get Okay, guys that I'm paying my now tech, she was going overseas and she said you never thought about being an outer and I just thought, oh hell no, I'm not working like you do. Anyway, she said to me, it's not like that. She said, You don't have to OSI. I'm in Adelaide and my train. And and yeah, I've worked from home for 20. Next January 20 years. COVID actually really affected my business. Yeah. In a big why. And then Pete and I went on a holiday and that affected my business. And in the end. You know, I think I think it's time time for a change. Yeah, so Yeah, John out, I'm gonna do something. Oh, yeah, I've got my eyes out on some filling work. You know. But yeah, I've got a few clients still, and I'm happy to stick with them for a little bit longer. And I know the time will come that I'll give it up because the body My back is not the best. And from leaning over 20 isolating. So I'm quite enjoying, like this work. I've only got four clients. That's fine. Like, you know, so I just enjoy it. And that's why I've really enjoyed the last few years of not being so busy and have to spend more time with my grandchildren to help out when it's needed if she's got to go into their business and do stuff. I mean, Pete just because my hat we sold we sold our main business five years ago. And so he works for the guy that brought it but he didn't go off when every law Yeah, so you know, last year we did two months traveling Australia in front of COVID. Everywhere we were when we left and to do that, we'll get to Queensland Raquel guys, Mum. Watch you guys were in lockdown. I saw that on the news. Like we've just got out of there. And the next place Oh my goodness to get stuck in our springs for a little bit. But yeah, it was crazy. We're just in front of it. I'm glad I'm glad life is going back to a bit of normality. There was more damage done in mental health than what there was in sickness. You know? It's just crazy and mental health. There's not enough support network. My brother has shared a lot with me about his and why he has been treated at that hospital is appalling. Not not being listened to. Nobody listened. As to nobody wants to believe it is all in your head. Yes, people that's mental illness, yes, get fired and do not have the support in mental health where it is needed. Like I said, I've lost two brothers due to mental health. One was so solid, and the other one had been an alcoholic since he was in his 20s. And I watched him wither away. And it was just really, really sad. byte of memory 49 They didn't get to 50. So, you know, and watching my baby brother, who lives here who is not well, and he shared some stuff with me other day. And when he left, I cried. Because I can't do anything. It's not my place to do anything. But it is absolutely the system's place. Yeah, just putting the right systems to help these people that need that help. And we live in a world it's all about money. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's something frustrates me so much. Everything is driven by money. Every single thing is driven by money. Unless you got money, you can't do nothing do and it's like, come on up. It's just crazy. I don't ever regret staying home being a mom. I loved being a mom. And I didn't go into the workforce and to make school so she was seven. So I was taught my girls, there's two things in life, you're going to sacrifice something. And I say it's going to be your family or it's going to be finance, you cannot have both. You cannot have lots of money, and be working, working, working. And expect to have the most amazing relationship. And I know there are some families that don't. But I know there are a lot of families out there that struggle. And I know, I remember my kids growing up, and I remember hearing their friends saying to them, You guys are so lucky that your mum is home. And their parents, both their parents say they could get whatever they wanted. Their parents brought them on it. It's not about that. It's about the quality time that you have with your kids. And, and I know their families out there because of the cost of living today and the cost of houses today. It isn't the best paint Nystrom to live. We the mortgage might not have been much back then. But neither was our high factor. Yeah, that's it's all relative. It's all relative like today. The pay packets are big, but your mortgage is a big. It's all the same packing line and pizza day. Like I've been in this house for 37 years. Yeah, this is the house he built when he was 23. Like, you know, I might have a lot now. But we've been here for a long time. Yeah. Let's see. It was instant. No, yeah. Worked out and made sacrifices. When I met Kate Kate heavies house when I met him. We had two beanbags in the lounge room. Yeah, we had beanbag, a bed, and a table. And that was it. There was no extras, there was no fancy stuff. And even as we're having our kids, we brought a lot of secondhand furniture, because the money just wasn't there. So you went without. And with my creative side, and during the markets, I brought some of my furniture from my house. And that was a good feeling because I'm not working. But I brought that yeah, it's such a good feeling. And, you know, but your life's not about money. You need money to live. But we don't, you know, you can't take it when you die. Nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. And so I really feel that life. Sometimes, sometimes I believe that life needs to go back to the basics. teaching in schools need to go back to the basics. Yep. Everything needs to go technology. It has its it has its purpose in life. And it's great and lies but Perth technology has already, I've noticed has destroyed humanity in a big way. I believe that kids play and use their imaginations. It's got to have technology in their hands. You know, and it's really really, really sad. Lee Our grandson, he's just at that stage where he wants to grab the phone all the time. And he knows they're all in grandma's house. The phone's off limits. Yeah. None of my grandkids have ever touched my phone. Yeah, it is off limits. But I see what kids do with phones. And we just live in that world of that technology that they've got their faces in the phones or their tablets. Yeah, and I think, pick up a book. I love books, because they're awesome. There's some you're seeing the other day, because when I have people on the podcast that often send me their books if they're an author. And I think this is so good that bosses like I like music school online so much. But now records are coming back. You know, people still want things in the hands. You know, it's almost like projecting that so as the stage that pokes it was when the Kabu tablets come out to read books. Yeah. And I do use it at certain times, even on my phone, I use it at certain times. And that's when we're traveling. And I haven't really taken away the books. So that the purpose Yeah, but you can't read a book in your head. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. I just finished a book at the moment. And it was amazing and awesome, was away. And I was like, that's like yesterday, I was planning to do something for boys. And we went to the pub for lunch. And then I came home and I was laying down on Kashmir, and I'm like, I'm gonna have a man of that today. Don't do that. Yeah. And I laid on the couch. And I woke up at 530. And I'm like, Oh, my goodness, I slept through and it was crazy. So and then I didn't go to sleep till late last night. The concept of mum guilt is something that I'd like to talk to all my moms about on the show. And I guess I can throw it over to you to share your thoughts on that. We've had that before. My mum guilt has been Did I do it? Right? I say sometimes I'll say some struggles my kids go through. And I was quite a protective mum. One my five. But two because of where I came from. So I had an abusive father. So I went through a lot. So I probably tried to over protect my kids safe for a while. And, you know, I just made sure that I tried to spend as much time with my kids and do the kid things. And so most of the time my creative side didn't connect to them. Yeah, right. Yeah. So it was once they were in bed, then some shaman come out, or the paint brushes that come out. That when they were young definitely spent lots and lots of time. Because once they're at school, you have all the time in the world to do all the things that I needed. But what our little what I wanted to make sure. And then when they become teenagers, you do you have that monkey cool in the sense of Did I do it right? Did I overstep boundaries? Or, you know, I remember I have a lady asked me, What do you had three daughters? How do you do it? Like I remember, they're all different. None of them are the same. You can't treat them as the same because that individuals remember what you did. Because they're going to do it. So it doesn't matter. You can go well I did this and my kids are not going to do that. And guess what people? Yes, they are not going to tell you why girls have told me so many things now that they're adults. Am I happy about it? No. But you know it everyone's life. And yeah, we survived to house three teenage girls. Yeah, we didn't have two bathrooms. At the time. So far, my husband has been around him because he's got three sisters or goodness even the animals are females you're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was in New Haven. As a mature woman these days, when I talk to younger mums, the biggest thing I say to women off today, don't feel guilty, like the mum guilt, or you no need to spend more time with them, or I haven't done this with them or that that only pulls you down. That doesn't help them either. But I remember reading something quite a while back. And if I hadn't known this, I think things might have been different. And it's putting, putting the aspects of your life in order. And this guy said, it's, you need to put yourself first, you have to look after yourself. Because if you don't look after yourself, and you fall into a hole, everything around you falls into a hole. So you've got to and it's not about being selfish, it's about just giving yourself a little bit of quality time, go away. My quality time with the kids while I'm having a bar hump and nighttime, yeah, they knew they couldn't come into their mum's time, you know. And it's just a time for you to just chill out or whatever. They put your husband next, not your children, yeah, marriages fall apart, because the husband comes to a point where it just think he's not loved and not wanted anymore. Because we were so busy with our kids, and everything else that they become lost. And so this gentleman said it should be you put yourself first put your husband next, then your children, then everything else comes after that. And being a mature person now and I can look at that guy. And that is so true. Because I know the struggles that my marriage went through and the hardship that my marriage went through. And if things if we had a built a marriage differently on those aspects, we would have had a stronger marriage, you know, we're still together, praise God, we're still together. But um, you know, and I think that's important. And you're not to allow those self doubts to control you. Because that can happen. Big time. You know? You can look back in life, I suppose. I've been through a lot in my life. And and it's there's been doubts, in fact, did this this way. That wouldn't happen. You can't do that. Yeah, that's yesterday. You can't do in the past. You know, forgiveness, huge thing, a positive thing that everybody needs to do. I bring an outtake, you hear a lot of things. Yeah. You hear a lot of things in I've heard a lot of sad things in my life with people, the hatred that they hold towards a family member, or the, you know, a mother and daughter that hadn't spoken for 25 years. And that just rips me to pieces because my mom and I were so close. We did so much together and then losing her so young. And I always, I always come back to what I say to my girls never allow anything to come between us. Not a disagreement. Not everybody has the right to have their own personal choice of something. But if something comes between us, don't be too pigheaded to go and say I'm sorry. Even if the other person did something wrong. You'd be strong enough to go I'm sorry if I offended you in any way. I love you. I care about you. Please don't let this affect everybody. unchecked, because we allow the little things for too long to destroy and take a look at the world. It's just distracting itself in life, you know? And it's quite sad answer keys, Nurse causes sickness in the body. Yeah, it causes depression, it causes so much more. And, you know, I've seen so much through my brothers. Everything, they still hold anger and resentment against my dad, for how he treated us and what he put us through. And I got to the point, I forgave him when I was 19. I became a mom at 19. And I wanted more and better for my life, and also for her life. And at that time, I wasn't even a believer in God. I believe now that God spoke to my heart, because I made that choice to forgive him and move on. And, you know, it took a long time for me to learn to love him again. And I think deep down I always did, because he was my dad. Did I like the person he had to come? No, not at all. And sometimes you don't have to, like, who's someone that comes. But that hatred, it's not a good thing. It will disrupt everything around you, it will destroy your marriage, it will destroy your life between you and your children. And it's, it's not a good thing. And you see so much hatred in the world. And that's why there is so much destruction. And I think, living a positive life. And I know some people find that hard. But being a positive person isn't that hard. It's just looking and believing for better, you know, believing that it can get better. And yes, sometimes it doesn't. But it's having that hope. That's what God gives me that hope in life, life will be better. And I think a lot of people blame culture a lot of things. I don't and we all have free will. And it does give us that free will. He gives me hope that even if you're going through a tough time, it can't get better. You have to want it and you just have to find a way to step out or our way. I love my artwork. Sweet German Yeah, a lot of my grandkids I give me enjoyment my children give me enjoyment. You got to find something that will give you a joy instead of just holding on to the negativity Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Cuz you're right. It is incredibly disruptive and as physically you know festers in your body and comes out in illnesses and disease and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, it's it's it's a pretty massive thing to be able to forgive someone. You know, like you said, you don't have to lie. No, you don't have to like who they were at the time. Yeah. Or who you know, you don't have to like the situation. Yeah. But if you have that hatred in you, I know that person I became, in my teenage life, I didn't like who I was. And even though I tried really hard to be that bubbly person and be positive. I was felt like I was dying inside. And it wasn't until I made that decision to forgive my father. And it was pretty serious. The stuff that I went through in my family that most people thought, No way. Could I do that. But I did that because I wanted to. Yeah, it wasn't about him nice about that. Yeah. And you know what forgiveness isn't about the other person. But did you know, hatred is not about the other person? Because it actually doesn't hurt them? No, that's it, isn't it? You're the one suffering, you're the one that suffered. So the hatred festers in you makes you an angry person, a wild person out of control person, and the person you're putting all that hatred to, doesn't even know what you're feeling. So you know, and I realized that 19 isn't very profound. And I always look back at that. And I remember exactly, I could see myself doing it in my bedroom, it led straight just around the corner. And recall was one years old. I was before I met. So yeah, and I just, and I think that's fine. We can have bad days, we can get upset, that's life that happens, we can die have days of crime on the couch. Been there done that too. But if you allow those situations to fully control you, and not have to step out of them, that's when the depression really comes in. And I've watched that one of my closest friends, due to a situation that have ended depression has just taken a hold of it. And it's really sad. It's sad to watch. It said, I feel helpless, because I can't help it out of it. Try. But you know, that we can do is be there for them. Yeah, that's it. Like you said, it's, you can try. But that person has had gone to do the work, which is unfortunate, but also powerful for them. If they embrace that, you know, they're in control of this situation, they can get themselves out of it. Yeah. If people can get themselves out of it. But I think if there's support networks, not out there, oh, yeah. Let's say, you can't do it on your own. You know, watching my brother became an alcoholic, his whole life, you know, bumped into him down the street was really sad, because we sci fi switch up. And that's all that would come out. And I think, you know, I didn't know who he was. But I was there for him when he was dying, because I swore that he would never suffer on his own in the end. And that was really that that was really, really tough. That wasn't easy. Sitting at a hospital watching someone's life, you know, disintegrate like that. But it also made me a stronger person. Knowing that, you know, if we've got family members that are going through the hard times. Even though we can't always change the situation. All we need to show them is that we still love them. And I think that's the important thing. Because you see some families where they go, oh, yeah, I can't be bothered dealing with her anymore. It's just too much hassle. And she's over exaggerating. And data added. I just think she's your family. Just love her. Just love her for who she is. Yeah, it's not easy, but it's not easy for them to know how to how they can even comprehend what goes through their heads. You just can't comprehend it. And and so it's just a matter of loving and caring about those people that are in your family, whether it's your children. You know, I saw a lady the other day and she came up and said hello to us at lunch yesterday in Shetland baby in arms and it's all babies it's been fostered and, and fine. I just looked at each other and it just went Oh, that is so sad. Like, you know, it's been in the foster system since he was five days old. And, you know, it's we had to help society. How do you help people to change? I think trying to teach people how to be positive how to have hope. Yeah. It's a pretty good message. I have heart. Yeah. That was a big thing that's really important. When you became a newer, like, you talked about having a bath and like this is this is your time, you know, you've got three girls in the house. Was it hard to keep your own identity? As Judy, when you was putting so much into you? I think you do focus a little bit. When when, especially when your children are really young. Because when they're really young, they totally depend on uni and everything. So you know, that might drive Yes. Oh, oh, later on, when I gotta get out, I'm going to shut off. Yeah, yeah, I do think you do lose a little bit. Like I said, giving yourself some space. And having a bit of you time is important. Going out on a date with your husband. It's important. They are important things. And I think a lot of time we get so busy with everything around us. And I know I'll definitely do. Like I said, it wasn't until way after the kids were gone that I made that bet how to put your family, you know, you, your husband, and then your children. And so a lot of time, you're so busy with your children and doing this and doing that and doing this and that you don't give yourself and so you do lose a part of yourself. My goal, it was really funny. Growing up, I wanted to be a beautician. Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. A lot of fun cover a lot of fashion like that has brought right from a little girl mom was always in my mom's wardrobe. She's like, you know, so, but it didn't happen. And then I became a nya tech at 14. And I actually went and did a little bit of makeup artistry. Because I was gonna do that with the now. But now it's just too much more time. So I just ended up letting go. But it was it was a dream as a child, that's what I wanted to do. And so there for a while, I felt like I had lost a part of myself because I didn't get to do what I wanted to do. But I loved being a mum. So and I made that choice. My husband and I we sat down and we discussed I have a daughter when I met Pete she was two and I met him. And so then when we had our children we discussed and I said what do you want? If you want me to go and find a job or gone and he said no. This is it really for the girls. You know, and I think that's because we've commanded the passport mums did yeah, I can i and t they were time financially, that extra money would have been handing, but we need to go without you learned to go without you learn to just live off what they've got, you know, they still have food in their stomach and a roof over their head. You know, and at that stage that sort of opened my eyes up to my mom, because my mom bringing us five kids up on her own. But same thing we had a roof over our head, clothes on our back feed on their feeding or something. We're closed speech at night though A lot of times over secondhand clothes, mom did a bit of work in one of the secondhand shops. And she picked right through it and buy some nice things. But, you know, she did what she had to do as a single mom in the end. And I mean, in the early days, there was no pension. Yeah, she was lucky, because my mom was so sick, she couldn't actually hold a job down. But the pension had just come in and wholesome very much, but she managed. I was 16 When my dad left, so I left school to go out work to help provide for my family, you know, it wasn't well, and it wasn't easy. I didn't have the best model with work in my early days. And, and I was on the dole, well, that's fine. I handed that over to my mom, like, you know, yeah, I did what I could do. But losing a part of your identity. I think happens to all of us at some stage in our life, I think that have a life. And they should become a really big, career driven one. Do you think that helped you come back to yourself? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. It was all they always say. I caught up with an old girlfriend at Christmas time. We were best friends growing up. And I hadn't seen her for a long time. And she come in and she said, Where did it come from? I said, I think it was always there. I used to draw a lot as a young girl, I'd sit my bedroom, paper and Palin. I think growing up in a house full of men. It was my only way to get away from everything. So I'm sitting in my bedroom a lot with drawing whatever car I knew I loved cars. And so I said it was always there. Just the finances weren't there for me to do it. So even being a single mom, the finances were there to do it. My creativity was really big on my dressmaking. I would go into this fabric store that we used to have in town. And and I knew Margaret quite well, because her daughter and I went to school together and I would go in and she said so what are we looking for today? Do just a bit of February. She said I function on the weekend. Okay, yep. Gotcha. Yeah, didn't have the money to go and buy a fully priced fabric. So I would go through and reminisce. And I'd say that my oldest is big enough for school. Why can I pick that? And then I'd go through. Oh, hey, this. That'll work. Yeah. Spend $5. Yeah, I think sometimes it cost me February. And I could back then because I used to write really simple basic stuff. I didn't need a pen color pattern off something that I had. So that creativity Big Time Bank as a single mum. And because I used to put my money into my daughter to buy her clothes or make some clothes for her. So I would just buy the scrap fabrics to make something for myself. Yes. So and I worked on my mom's trailside washing Peter gown. Oh, wow. And then then I met Pete and his mum gave me her old Brother Song fishing. She said you know don't use it anymore. You can have it. And I was like what Christmas is kind of what Yes, like I really miss the old treadle they are they have do French things really well. Yeah. That stitcher was also funny So, I think if you can look back at your life and, and not look at the negativity of your life, because we've all had bad stuff, a lot of us have had bad stuff in life. But look at the things that have made you who you are. You know, my mom, she was my biggest inspiration. I want it to be like her. I think she'd be proud of. So she's smarter than me. She'd be laughing at something she'd be like, Jeanne kitchen. I look at my girls. And like, I was blessed to have daughters hung up in a house for me. All I wanted was a sister. Yeah. I want a sister. That's not gonna happen. I have it all. I have my sister in law that I'm really close to. But, you know, I really believed I was blessed to be given dollars, because it was like given me something that I credit for as a child. That sister. You know, I'm the oldest in the family. And then it's boy, boy, that was five of them. Five, very close in age. My mom had six kids in five years, Holly, Molly's twins. Goodness gracious. And I used to say to her, Hey, did mom and then when the kids were growing up, she would say something like I had one you've got three teenagers and I knew what she was going oh my god. Yep, I've got three that's a challenge. whities get to teenagers. My oldest grandson just turned 16. Yeah, right. Goodness. So what's the age range of your grandchildren? So from 16 to four months? Oh, wow. Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, lovely. So there's four boys and four girls. I have here two boys and girls just steaming. And then the other girls listen to this. Now there's no favoritism. But Stevie's here, and she's the only girl that I've got to spend time with. And so I love spending time with her. But I love going to Queensland and spending time with my other grandkids. So I've got three here and five up there. So yeah, so there's two boys and three girls. Yeah, so yeah, oldest to 16. And the youngest is five months. So and that brothers, by the way, yeah. Right. To say, to say Brooklyn, with his baby brother in his arms. And like it, he's six foot to six foot three. And he's got a photo of his brother in his arms. just melted. And honestly, when he was born, I was just like, wow. So, you know, that's pretty big age gap. And I know that gap will be there for a long time. But there will come a time where that gap will disappear. You see that with a siblings where there's, you know, ages between them. So you know, I hadn't hadn't families don't like 13 kids. So that's when the mom really would have lost her identity. She reminds me of down at Kleiner. D. There's a gravestone because my grandparents buried there. My dad saw it. And it just says, Mother, it doesn't even say good night. It was like literally that's what she was just being a mother. You know, she probably had just finished reading a novel and it was written in the times of before women could vote. Yeah, and how go home and breed. Anyway, this one woman, she was quite well to do. But she got kicked out and she ended up in a mining town. Well, she inherited a news agency from her while she thought it was her uncle, and as she found out it was actually her father. So she inherited this and everybody said now she's not gonna laugh. She's not gonna laugh. And she was determined and she changed that whole town. Yeah, aspect of that whole town. How people looked at things and how people do things. I mean, it was a Christian novel, and it was so well written. Francine rivers, she's one of my favorite horses. But he was how women were looked at. Oh, yeah. And I know we've come a long way. In that sometimes I worry about, have we taken away too much from the Ventus identity? Because there are a lot of families out there that women roam the house. And I don't know, something my husband and I have talked about that, you know. And I don't believe we have to live in a world where the husband just goes up and works all day and the woman stays home and does nothing, I don't believe in it. But I definitely believe in equal, equal equal, not. Even a woman shouldn't be higher than men. And women should be equal treat each other equally. And I know there's still men out there that are like cavemen who want to, you know, hold the roast and drag the woman by the hair, like, you know, Oh, guys, just time for a while, but the world technology has definitely changed the world. I suppose Britain and abroad changed the world to. I remember, a lady sent me a lot of print. And she separated from her husband. And like I said, pipeline, and we separate the fact that she said, How did you say that you said, because we wanted to make it work. We could have just taken the easy way out. But at the end of the day, it was only gonna hurt our kids, it's gonna hurt ourselves. And at the time, could have quite easily just walked out and started a new life. And that wasn't my that wasn't my motto. That wasn't my dream. My dream was to be with Caleb for the rest of my life. And to watch, I think, because I grew up in it. You know, my dad walked out on us. No, I did not want to do the same thing. And this made us stronger. Because we fought harder. And I think we need to fight harder for things in the world that we're living today. It's too easy just to go on. I'd love you. Anyone leaving? Yeah. Do you think that's why the the, the percentages of of divorce have skyrocketed. A couple of generations of people scattered jihad, and off they go. I know, I know a few people that said they wish that given a better chance. You know, if I only had, because it's more of my screen. Offense, that's the thing isn't? Fair, it's just go with the same thing. Yeah. Like, you know. Some, and I think that's where if we do the right balance in our lives, in our families, with you, your husband, your children, then everything else after that. If you do that right balance, then I really believe that the balance will be right in your family too. Because you're so busy with the kids, you're so busy with everything else running around, you don't give that quality time to your partner. And then what happens you drift apart. So you don't connect the way you used to. And to try and make that connection again, isn't easy. It's hard work. But you know, and then try it once your kids move away. Yeah. And you're living in a house and I know, lots of marriages that break up at that point. Because, you know, you're not even talking together. Yeah, you just live in a house together. And so, you've got to start again, to build that relationship. And some people just can't be bothered to do that. So they just think well, I'm done on on out of this. You know, my husband has his creative side. He loves work given he's done like we've renovated our house and picked it a lot of stuff in the house. The petitioner the door, he built it in my fireplace mantel piece. He built the book all over that they sit under he built um so he he has his creative side of things. And he races off road buggies and he was just a way this weekend. You got to allow them to have their space to wait Want to have our space but they've got to have their space as well. And my husband and I, we don't live in each other's pockets. Quite comfortable. Pricing, I didn't want to go this time. So I did last month I went this month I stayed on. I was quite happy to stay home. And, and sometimes I don't go away as much as I used to. I used to go away a lot as a now ticked go away with training and stuff. And he was quite happy with that. I think you just got to come to an agreement. And learn to live together in that way. And learn to work together, work together as parents for your children. Not allow one person to make all the decisions. Yeah, not to allow poor moms. I think moms get bad rap, really. Because that's a wild die and mom's busy. Gone. Don't do this. Don't do that. Don't do this. And then dad walks in the door and go, you can do what you like. Yes, you know, yeah. And my mom used to say that we were always really naughty girls for her all day, and the dad would come home and then we'd be on our best behavior. Daddy was bowing. It was going be too scared to be naughty. Don't try to your father ago. I remember watching Pete sit down behind Barbie dolls with the girls. You know, his role was when he walked in the door. Let me have more coffee. Stop having coffee. We I know in business. So yeah. And it's hard to switch off from that. It's like you just you're all the time because it's you. And you know, like he's loving right now being semi retired because he goes to work, he comes home for lunch. And then he comes home at the end of the day. And he has no headaches. We had a business for 36 years. So we had those headaches for 36 years. And but he always made quality time for his kids. We always made sure we weren't working on the weekends, every now and then he'd pop into the office on a Saturday morning or hid behind, I would pop into the office because I'd have to go and do a bit of work. But let's say that when we took over the business, that was something I had to step into. Yeah. Because before that we had a secretary when we had the two partners. So then when he left financially, we couldn't afford to pay anybody. So it was like I gave up my art studio to go work in the office. And that wasn't too bad because I didn't need to be there 24/7. So I would be there a couple of days a week to do or okay paydays these days, I'd go in there for two hours and leave. So being an outtake, and doing that, it was a bit of a juggle, but it worked. Because I could still do business more than myself in my own business, and juggle that, but still be there to do what I had to do with the other business. And I was so happy when that was so quiet my monthly you know, best. And I remember when it takes changing from and then the GST came in and everything and that slightly, I had to go and do training, like, and then we had to get all this special. And the technology and when you're in business and thinking of like we started, Pete started his business in the IDs. And then, you know, the technology year after year after year changing and how things were done. I remember even in the early years, he would come home with written codes. And I would sit down at the table to do them properly. Yeah, he would do the rough. Like yeah, I'd be on that boat what does this mean? And then because he wanted to go computerized and his business partner didn't want to spend the money so in the end when we brought him out we went for computerized so I'm going to type to how to work a computer. Yeah, I think we have a special program so that didn't even work anyway. So it was like my general this training all over again. Because yeah, this program it was because we had a panel breeding business was specially made for that. Yeah. And then you go from the das System to Windows system. Everything changes so off just completely changes over time. But yes, I'm so glad I've done so Want to know? What do you want to know how will sleep? Three just turn three? He just said his birthday. And his favorite thing amongst attracts nah. Yeah, I mean yet lots of them lots of of hate here. He just loves him and he gets them away. We've lined them all up around the island. Bye, guys. How about this one? Down the hallway of her house. Okay, so quiet getting busy. Kind of interesting. So I want to ask you, bear, I've been watching on your Instagram, this evolution of this painting that you're working on at the moment. I used to do a lot of fine art paperwork for probably seven years. And that's great. But a lot of hours go into it. And not because I stopped doing the paintbrush because it's just so much miss and time and being an artist. I just didn't have the time because I was pretty much working full time. And so then the payment was good, because I can't watch TV without doing something. Yeah, I could have that sitting on it. Or just don't attend to live pieces. How can you do that and watch TV at some point. I'm not watching on this thing. Yeah, yeah. If I need to look I can. I can I can teach the white crow strings crashing. I watched the video guy that Crusher Crusher Crusher really fast one Yeah. No. Why would you even do that? It's about enjoyment. Enjoy. Yeah. There's not a competition to say how quick you can crusher a blanket, right? Yeah. Anyway, I was watching this video on this boy. And he was crushing so fast. He kept me here. But anyway, so I was doing all this paperwork for a long time. And then I decided to challenge myself on watercolor. And so I enjoy that, because that's just an easy, relaxed. And what got me back into the brushes also did a painting for both her house and was huge. Yeah, absolutely. Two meters by 1.5. It was enormous. She had brought a piece of artwork for a bedroom, and she wanted to get one for a dining room and kept saying, show me like two guys go and say Ma'am, you can do that. Yeah, I can do. So I said I can do that. Anyway. So I'll jump for you if you want might as well even copy the painting that you love. And just change it up a little bit. Anyway, because it was it was pretty much block car, like there was no detailing in it. So anyway, she walked away. And she came back she was already righty. So I'll do up here for Christmas present. So it was kind of paint brush back in my hand. I'm liking this. So I'm doing at the moment is what it's going to hang out front door. I just have a picture of these big flowers, and it's gonna have a butterfly in the middle of it. So butterfly. And then I was looking at photos of butterflies and flowers. And I'm like, well I have can I do that because butterflies are actually bigger than flowers. I just don't want a butterfly on a canvas doesn't matter. It's just the concept of it. And what I'm enjoying at the moment is this no rush. It's when I'm in the mood, go up there and do a little bit more, you know, non flowers. And I like to think about what I'm doing I like to think about and I like to study flowers. So I like a bit of detail work not just a block color. And I mean, before I started I was on Pinterest looking I get lots of paintings, modern artwork and lots of stuff trying to work out what I wanted. I just wanted I just decided I wanted to pop a color in the house. As you can see, my places hasn't been of color, but not a huge amount. It's a very nice color you teach you and yeah, so when we renovated the house, we wanted everything. It used to be Craven flooring. Anyway, so when I repainted I went for that really nice. It's called like rice in the living room. And that's pretty much true the rest of the house when I come to the kitchen, I need some color in here. Because otherwise it would just look playing from the tiles and everything would have just got lost. Yeah, yeah. The paychecks I know and I painted some colors. Well, he went down and I painted my kitchen. Oh, my friends laughed about it. When he come home is like we've had this color before our bedroom yesterday this car. Okay, but it's my favorite color. So decayed blue. It's easy to live with. But yeah, I wanted to pop a color. So I've done these flowers and they're like, apricot a terracotta Yeah. And then it'll have a butterfly that I've been looking at lots of peaches, butterflies. I'll find one that really jumps at me. And she's been in the shade these first I was at the Melbourne Zoo and Melbourne Museum during the week. And the amount of dead animals that they have there are people who have like the the wooden sort of frames and then in the butterfly oh my gosh, there was some absolutely gorgeous one. Oh, that's amazing. Butterflies are like the like the the vibrancy. I can't see the reflection of the grass. But the vibrancy in these colors. I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, they exist like that. Yeah, I'll continue that one. That's it kids birdwing? Yeah, just because I've got the ICER caught on something with a bit of blue on it. Yeah. You have to have blue in it. That's a trademark is nobody goes on about my turquoise and aqua colors. But it's just an easy color to take come home. And it was great posturing, the chairs and the old Dawn swing. I had done three and I needed to do the other three. Because I finally finishing those. I said yes. And sorry. Anyway, come back and said I just need to tell you because I sit down. I'm finishing these because I've solved the tables. Why have you sold it? Because I probably knew that my girlfriends and I was showing her and she said what are you gonna do and I went by the phone technology is good sometimes. It has. So reposting so you're quite adept at that is not intricate, but the seats were just plain and I got a quote to get them down like you're not paying that. So I think I could do a count to I'd love to have my couch reupholstered in there because it's just gotten really glossy and also dependent Yeah, I'm actually tempted to make a slip cover for Yeah, so I said depends on me. I'll try and make a slip cut before I said because the cushions I can cover the cushions is enough to try and get that couch that rams Yeah, so I just thought oh, maybe a challenge for you. Yeah. Every now and then that's literally like your motto in life be seen. Give it a crack and see how it goes. I even my son little bit of money, but there's a feeling when you give something a challenge and you do it. It's like I did that. Wow, that makes me feel good. You know. I had my friend that came in the other day that did a bit of painting with me. She's looking at my artwork. She's like, No, no, we're not buying artwork. When I do artwork. I don't see the point. Yeah, and this. I have one case that I brought. I have a friend in Victoria And I was chatting with her. And she's a quirky artist. And, and obviously my early days of joining the penwork and I just fell in love with this place. And she was funny. She thinks it's one of the worst places she said I still got, you know, but I don't have the money to go out and spend 1000s of dollars on a piece of art. But I can have a painting up on a wall and I can go Yeah, I'm over that now. Yeah, can I change? I need to change and change that. Yeah. Because I've got another big canvas that's gonna get on that wall. Yeah, and that's a meter and a half by meter so it's quite few so I'd have thought about what I'm gonna do my not yet finished. Yes, it finished your flowers. So what inspires you then with you? You're painting like natural the natural world it's just anything that anything anything that bugs me yet you know, at the moment, birds have grabbed me as you can see, I've got a few birds. I follow he's a Krishna has over in Russia or somewhere over Ukraine or wherever, somewhere over that way. And he does these most amazing food paintings. And there's actually a lady in Australia. who works at Castlemaine. And she does really good ones, too. I kik messenger, so many to teach. I want to come over for a workshop. You know, it's not about if something just grabs my attention, yeah, like, you know, yeah. I've had a go at some of the really ultra modern art. Yeah, and that's easy. Five Year Old can do that. Like real abstract, sort of, yeah, splashes and things like that. Yeah. Pete's got one in the family room. I've been going to get rid of at night Smart Girls. So yeah, and I say that you know, it's like when you decorate your home if you think over the years I've been here 37 years Yes. Big coats of paint and with that cover so and right now what's coming really big apricot? Yeah, I forgot become a huge again. Well, ladies, guess what? It was really big in the 90s. So you know, you go you go through those changes and country country. Oh, my goodness. I had chickens walking around my walls. Yeah, you know, chicken phrase wallpaper and and we all have a laugh about it. Remember, mom's kitchen. Terracotta rag down the bottom and change changes, good changes. Good. You're not afraid of change. Now. You know what? I went and visited my mother the other day. And their house still looks like the way it was when they brought it. They've never done anything new to us that they did put in a new kitchen. But when you go into their lounge room, we've still got the 70s couch. But it's really clean and it's really tidy. And doesn't feel oh, yeah, right. But it's so them and they're not at 90s. And I just think what I love fresh. It's not about changing the furniture. It's about just having a fresh coat of paint or if a curtains I've just replaced my curtains do these? Yeah, it's about and I've done that expensive. Paying, you know, someone to make curtains now comes as spotlight. Yeah, it's ready to hang on. To him. Yep. But But yeah, it's, you can you can decorate your home on the smallest budget, but you can decorate your home on the biggest budget. And you know, I think it's people so you've got so much and you can do it. Oh, you see on the site in my studio. There's a lot of stuff. Like because I like things. Yeah, I'm very sentimental. Yeah, so if someone gave me something or I've got something from somewhere special, that's not going away. That's gonna, you know, I just like it's clean and tidy, but there's just a lot of stuff in there. I like a homely feel in a house of like a lift in your house that feels like someone lives in a not a house like that. Yeah, I couldn't live like that, like kitchens clean at the moment. Like, you know, it's like you said before, it's a lot of things. So Do you know when? When when you're a mum of three young children, and there's plenty of us out there that you stress yourself out because your house doesn't look a certain way. Don't worry about it. Don't let the things of what other people think, get to you. Because I remember I met a girl for the first time. Anyway, we were going to a function of something. And she said, I'll pick you up, dude. I'm not Yeah, right now. Anyway, and she knocked on the door and I yelled at come in and, and I was sitting at the fire rating the girls here and just had their boss they had their pajamas on. And I was going to be away for two nights. And so I wanted to make sure everything was right and whatnot. And when I was in her car, she goes, I owe you an apology. I say why? And she said, because I've judged you without actually getting because someone told me that you live in a pigsty. And I said to her, what, because I have three children there. Sometimes it's Washington everywhere. And this and that. And I said to her, I said, I don't judge people by their homes. If I want to be friends with someone, and things get on top of them. Who can't go and visit them for them. Don't make people because that what happens is then you stop wanting people to come to your house. Because you put yourself in a box and you go, Oh, if that's what people think I don't want them to come and listen, I'm not good enough to have people into my mind. Yeah, that's right. And it's not this not a nice feeling to have. I just laughed. I was just like, No, but I knew who it was. I was gonna say it was that first and saying things like, yeah, it was and I just thought, you know what, that's a problem. Okay. Because I have a home. Yeah. And it probably shows to, you know, some people judging people. So people can look very superficially, like, what's really important to this is worrying what people think of them. Yeah, you know, I don't care what people think, you know, I've got a brother who's really, really sick, has no energy, and his house is upside down. Now, I've lost a superficial person, I wouldn't even step into his house. I try and offer to help him because might not know. But it's not. It's not about, you know, I get a lot of comments from people come into my house, and I take that. Thank you very much. But I don't do my house up, plays out. There's yeah, I've done my house that I like. And it's like all of a sudden, a few have, because I love the Hamptons. Yeah. And on a few blocks, and I've put up a couple of photos. It was a couple of negatives. And I said, You know what, if you don't like what I've done, that's fine by me. But you can keep your opinions to this thing. And so now I don't do social media. Yeah. It's always gonna be someone, there is always someone even if, even if they don't necessarily mean what they say there's someone who wants to cause drama, you know, they want to say negative comment because they want to interaction, you know, most people that say negative comments are people that are not happy with what they've got. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a real reflection on them. You know, same thing. bullies, and bullies, because something's going on in their life. Yeah, that's, you know, that wasn't what another big thing that I taught my children was, don't judge a book by its cover, you know? And have I been guilty of it? Absolutely. I remember a person who I became really good friends with. I judged her the first few times I met her. I thought she was stuck up, really. And then I was working for Justin jeans. And we had to do an ad. And so we had to spend a bit of time together because she was one of the other models. And then I got asked to take home and she invited me in for coffee. And we got sat down and had a chat. And she told me her life story and it broke my heart. Nobody knows what's going on in somebody's life. You know, I, myself, growing up through some pretty horrific stuff always came across a bubbly person that nobody knew deep down what I was going through. I still remember the good times. Yeah, because there's probably a lot more good times and negative. And sometimes the negatives can be really strong. So it's really hard to get your eyes away from Yeah, once you start looking back in and then I just think it's all the good times that we need to remember. Think wisdom comes from age. And if we can, I've learned a lot from older women. If I can't pass a bit of wisdom on to others that are listening in, I think then what are we here for? I think I think it's really wise and sustainless when our, my girls, once they get to, you get to a certain age and you go, Wow, if I hadn't done that a little bit different. Well, they've got kids pass it on to your kids. Yeah, because things won't change. Things aren't going to change unless we pass the wisdom on to our, to our children and our grandchildren. And, you know, my biggest thing is, give it a go. Don't be scared to give anything go. You know. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like it if you like it, that's fine. This is good. This is like a different dimension, a different perspective. You know, all the things you've been able to share today is wonderful. Because yeah, there's, I think sometimes when you're down in the trenches with your little ease, or you know, your newborns or different years that you're working through, you can think, Oh, it's so bad, I'll never get better. It's like, you know, you've been through all of that you're enjoying this next phase of your life. And it's really lovely to be able to share those experiences a good spot, you might cap live and let go of all and how you said those times where we feel like, do we do the right thing? It doesn't matter? Because you can't get back? Yeah. So what you do is you just take the next step on for July, and just love on your children, because the biggest thing is just love on them. And even when they become teenagers, like driving the same. And you know, one males and 17 You just love on your kids, and that should never stop should never stop you should constantly and they will definitely do things that you might agree with. And you know, and even as adults, they will do things that you won't agree with. And at the end of the day, they're still your children. And you still should love them no matter what. Because if they're not around you, it makes you really miss them lots and I miss my girls every day. And I miss my mum every day. And I'm watching now my friends dealing with their older parents. So part of means I miss my mum but a part of me it's glad I don't have to watch her get old and wither away either. But she she suffered enough in her early years. But you know, you just got to take life as it is. Make the most of it. But you're most of it, because nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. Yeah, you know, that's why we just need to leave for today and make the most of it and don't whinge about not doing something. Yeah, just go and do it. Just do it. Yeah, that's it. Thank you for today. Oh, thank you. Thanks. So lovely. Thank you for having me. Beautiful home. Welcome. I love these blues. It's like my jury. I gotta thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Claire Tonti Australian musician and podcaster S4Ep97 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Claire Tonti to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne VIC and a mum to 2 children. Claire was right into music in her early 20s, and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album Matrescence which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long covid and being at her lowest point mentally and physically . Matrescence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through post partum and a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing. Claire hosts 2 podcasts, currently Tonts and Suggestible with her husband, and she has previously hosted Just Make The Thing , She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, podcaster and youtuber. Claire is an ambassador for C.O.P.E. and The Giget Foundation and is so passionate about supporting mothers, You can tell Claire is a podcaster/interviewer, as she somehow turns the tables on me during this episode and at times it is hard to tell who is interviewing who! This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode. Matrescence is the physical, emotional, hormonal and social transition to becoming a mother. This episode contains mentions of post natal depression and anxiety, pre natal anxiety, birth trauma, post natal depletion, Claire - website / instagram / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Claire, tracks from her recent album Matrescence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast. It's great to have you here from wherever you're listening, whether it be Australia, United States or in Ireland. This week, I'm pleased to welcome Claire tante to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom to two children. Claire was right into music in early 20s and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album called muttrah essence, which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long COVID And being at her lowest point mentally and physically. Her album muttrah essence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through postpartum. And a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing Claire hosts to podcast currently taunt and suggestible with her husband, and she's previously hosted just make the thing. She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, a podcast and a YouTuber. Claire is an ambassador for cope and the Gidget foundation and she is so passionate about supporting mothers. When you listen to this today, you can tell that Claire is a podcaster and an interviewer as she somehow manages to turn the tables on me during this episode. And at times, it's hard to tell who exactly is interviewing her. This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode with both Claire and myself sharing a lot of intimate details regarding our childbirth experience and postpartum. This episode contains mentions of postnatal depression, anxiety, prenatal anxiety, birth trauma, and postnatal depression. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Claire's music tracks taken from her brand new album called mitr essence, which is available on all of the streaming platforms now, we can head to the link in the bio to purchase them. Please take care of yourselves and enjoy the episode bye. It's been two knees hands yours and mine. beaten, beaten in time. Same rhythm, same kind cause the light brown things clickety clack in and trains long the music came to heart beat the same. Well thank you, Claire, thank you for coming on. Appreciate you being part of the podcast. It's a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh, thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here. I've been really looking forward to this. Oh, good. Excellent. I actually I have been looking forward to change you too. Because as a musician, I love talking to musicians. I love talking to everybody. But you know, it's always good to converse in something that you know. Yeah, you kind of get the weird and wild well don't you like being amused though, and all the different like personality stuff and egos and just like the magic of it too, you know, I guess right? It's really nice. And also to say someone who else is a mom and a musician today, I think to kill a hybrid. Yes, yes. It's its own whole new world really isn't it? Absolutely is exactly right. All right, Alison. Yeah. So yes, you're a musician. People know that now. But you're also, you're also a podcaster. And I think you do too to podcast. Is that right? I do. Yeah, we're not Well, like I think a lot of parents and mothers particularly would say, it's a total mess or time and a rolling feast. But it's also been so much fun, I sort of, I started, just make the thing with my first podcast, which is how to start a thing and keep on making it. And that was an experiment to kind of find my voice. And if I could make a thing, I wasn't doing music. At that point, I had two little kids and running a podcast company doing all the behind the scenes, because my partner's a podcaster, and a YouTuber. And so after I was a primary school teacher, and then went on maternity leave, I sort of started there, helping him to monetize his show, and then other local comedians around the tracks. And I had convinced myself that I wasn't a creative person, but that my role in life was to help other people to be creative. And that's what I loved about teaching and what I kind of built my world as. And for some reason, didn't think I deserved my own space for creativity. And music was certainly the biggest and scariest thing for me. And so I also convinced myself that it wasn't really something I could do, and I wasn't good enough at it. So I probably stopped did music in early 20s, and then came back to it. And so yeah, all that is to say, I started with just make this thing which was just this kind of little dipping my toe in the water. And then I started suggestible, which is a recommendation show with my husband, where we recommend things watch, read and listen to we argue every week, he brings his post apocalyptic style was like, like vibe. And I bring my books written by mainly women, and rom coms, and we kind of like discuss it, he actually, to be fair, he also brings a lot of content made by diverse voices. And he's got a really big depth of knowledge in that space. So it's actually been a beautiful show to do. A lot of people listen with their partners, which has been really beautiful as well and recommend recipes, and that kind of things, that sort of comedy, and recommendations. And then Tonsai began couple of years ago now. And that's my interview show where I look at emotions really. And I talk to people about their stories. I really am interested in women's stories and diverse voices, activists, writers, experts, and thinkers, and deeply feeling humans really. And that's been the biggest joy to create that show. I'm currently working on Season Four at the moment. And interestingly, as I've grown in this space, I've found that I'm now talking more and more about women's health and hormones, interviewing women about chronic stress and how to make it all work as mothers even I interviewed Jane Harper, and that was a thing we talked about for ages, which was how to deal with mother guilt, and the complex nature of all of that stuff. So even the people you think that have it all figured out? Definitely don't. That was a long winded way of saying yes. No, that's fabulous. I love that. So I can breathe easy. I want to making space from me, like where Paul's pie. But what you've done is breaking me down so far. I can't get up. Because you so call now. Just call taunt is obviously like a play on your username tante. Where is that surname from was what's the heritage of that? So yeah, my full surname is Tonti Filippini. But I just shortened it to 20. And then my friends call me Tom. It's been a nickname that's been around for a while. So that's why I use that. I love it. Yeah, my dad didn't tell you. Yeah, cool. And I love that, like what I'm finding through this podcast, it's just so awesome to talk to other people. Like just like I was saying before about, you know, the mother, the mother, musician, like there's all these different worlds. And, like, I'm discovering so much stuff that I never knew before and learning so many things aren't even new and seeing different perspectives. And I guess you'd experienced that too with talking to so many different people. Yeah, absolutely. I've learned so much. I think that now I've released this album called nitro essence, which I started writing at the beginning of last year. And I realized I came to music after long COVID And I was really at my lowest point and I've been speaking and talking to women for a really long time. And by that point, and listening to a lot of different voices and artists and writers and creatives, but not actually really stepping into my identity as an artist, but I think all of that listening and all of those conversations kind of came together for me at that time, and when I couldn't watch TV I couldn't, I was really so depleted after having my second baby during COVID. And also homeschooling and doing all the things that we all did during that time, particularly if you had kids that everyone had their own struggles, and, you know, as musicians and artists as well, it was a really, really challenging time for the industry overall. But yeah, when I got long COVID, and had postnatal depletion, and I really just could parent and rest, I couldn't work and then use it kind of came back into my life, there's a way to listen. And then I developed this cough and as a podcast or a coffee is not very good to have like real coffee feeds. And so I decided to go and get some singing lessons. And I was still telling myself it was just because I had this cough that I needed to figure out. And then very quickly after I started singing lessons with my teacher, Bianca fan, she saw my songwriting, and said, Did you know you're a songwriter? And what are you doing with them. But I do think so many of the songs that came from that place, I took them to her nephew, they heal, and he's a music producer. And initially, it was going to be two songs we'd record and very quickly, it exploded to be 11 songs about I didn't realize what my tresses was at that point. But it was really just about what I was feeling and going through. A lot of those songs are inspired by the people and the women, particularly who I've listened to fake overseas. And I think that's the beauty of podcasting, you get these kind of lovely microcosms of connection with people that you may never speak to otherwise, doing work that you really admire or that you're interested in, you learn so much. And then as an artist, and as a creative, you almost like absorb it or like a sponge, and it sits there somebody in the back of your brain, I always think I have like a spider that lives in the back of my brain collecting things. You know, just like a bow a bird. You don't have a lot of time to like, we wait for the right moon to come out in the sky to like write your beautiful sonnet or whatever. So it just sits there collecting things while I'm busy doing other stuff. And I think for me, it was like 15 years of busy doing other stuff. So when I finally let that spider out, sounds strange, but you know, it was suddenly like, excellent. Here's all these things and all the stuff that you've learned and heard about from other women and also your own journey. So yeah, yeah, podcasting, it's a magic space to be well, I can definitely relate to that. Like, I found that by hearing other people's perspective on their creativity, it allowed me to be a lot more free with mine and not have these, like I'm can be quite a perfectionist and have the standards that things have got to be a particular way, which is good in some respects with my music. But then in other, like my painting, I never thought I could paint or draw because it was it didn't look very good. So that was my thing, I won't do it, because I can't do it sort of thing. And then just, I mean, it sounds really obvious, but there's a lot of different kinds of painting, but because I've never really delved into it, or talk to anyone about it. It just was the one of these things I just didn't do. And just by talking to people and realizing that you can do whatever you want, like, oh, wow, this is great. And so now I enjoy that as part of like, it's almost like a bit of a self care sort of thing, where if I'm processing, you know, as situation or emotions, whatever i i will often just be drawn to the painting side of things. So it's become a really good tool for me, you know, to look after myself and my mental health. So yeah, like, I would never have tried that or done that if I hadn't talked to so many people about it. So that's been really good for me. Yeah. I think that it's so magical. And having that kind of tactile outlet that we've the paint in the color, we can just imagine that would be so soothing. Yeah, and I do really believe deeply that creativity in the arts is a big tool in the toolkit of healing. And I think and particularly matriculants, for those who don't know, is a word that describes the complex transition to motherhood that happens through adolescence, similarly to adolescence. So if we think of hormone to use identity crisis, body changes, social networks change, who we are as a person shifts, the people, the way people see us in the world shifts when we become an adolescent. It's the same in retracements. And I think there's a really powerful way that art and creativity can really help women and people who give birth to move through that transition. And I think in our culture, it's often underrated and undervalued. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it would be it was the last thing I tend to when actually, it was a thing that worked for me. And it's not as tight. You know, obviously, there was diet related changes and medication is also really amazing and going to see medical professionals but yeah, creativity cannot be underestimated for effective. Yeah. Are you watching? Video thing? Yeah, I don't know, more than rolling. Blame news. Five. DNA, me, and just on that, like, the Moto essence has become a word that's very common now, I suppose. And it's only been in the last few years, I think that it's really been something that people talk about and refer to in that way. And I can't feel like, you know, you're talking about the teenager is a similar sort of comparative time with all the changes, like, I feel like we give teenagers a break, like, we say, oh, you know, they're really struggling, because it's this time, you know, the hormones are changing, and we seem to give them a lot of, sort of give them a break. But when it comes to mums that are struggling, it's like, well, that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to have a baby, you know, like, it's, it's almost like suck it up, because that's your body. And like you're a woman, that's what you're supposed to do. So just do it. You know, do you feel like we said, that's not a feeling that is not a culture, it's the culture we live in. And it's not the culture that exists across the globe. I know, for example, in India and in China, and a lot of other traditions Bali have a lot of traditions like this to a woman when she gives birth, particularly for the first time is seen as a newborn, just like a newborn is, there's a phrase the newborn mother that I love, because really you are your child, like you don't know yet what you're doing yet, you don't know how to feed your baby yet you don't know what this new body is even going to look like or what it's going to mean, there's milk coming out your boobs, how did that even happen? And often, even in the lead up, that the word mature essence should be spoken about before women or people who give birth even embark on parenthood. It's so it's a really huge transition to make. And in our culture, we just push women out of the hospital after two days and say figure it out yourself. And you'll be right. And part of it is underfunding. But I also think it's a loss of village. And it's also a lot of and a devaluing of wisdom and knowledge that used to be passed down through generations. And so in those traditions, like there's a beautiful woman who works at our local bookstore, Mira and I went in there with my album, and we were talking and she said, yeah, when I was becoming a mother, my mother moved in with me for 40 days, I wasn't allowed to leave the bed, she brought all the food to me really warming foods cleaned, my house cooked, we had a whole lot of people coming in. All I had to do was feed my baby, and then and then they would put her down. And so she said during the pandemic, she prepared her bags to do that for her own daughter, and then couldn't go because of COVID, which and there's just so many micro mini stories of tragedy through COVID. And but one of the big overarching stories is that all the problems that were there inherent with the lack of care from others, a lack of honoring of their journey, the lack of knowledge around what they actually need, and let me tell you, it's not nurseries and Pinterest boards and special bugaboo prams, it's, it's psychology before they even get to start to become pregnant. It's really knowing themselves. It's understanding they can advocate themselves in the birth for themselves. In the birthing room, they can be in charge of their birth and not handed over to the doctors who technically know best in inverted commas. They know their body, and they know what they need, and should be empowered to know all of their options. So that when they get in there, if there's someone in that room who isn't being supportive of them, they can tell them to eff off. Yeah, yeah. And also then moving from there having postpartum planning. So that's where I hadn't even heard of the word doula when I had my kids. And then I think I thought the word doula was like a boozy thing that maybe Gwyneth Paltrow did in Hollywood. Like, why would you do that? When actually it's just a woman who understands the process of birth and can advocate for you if your partner doesn't know and often, your partner is a bloke and he is just as much in the dark as you are. So having someone there that can also then come and care for you afterwards if you don't have that village support. So all of that is to say that essence was coined in the 1970s by Donna Raphael. And she's an amazing anthropologist, and then brought back in kind of the early 2000s, by early Athan, and she was an academic based in Canada. And she brought that term back, but it's coming back again. And I think it's really because COVID highlighted just how ginormous, the problems are in a culture that doesn't care for mothers and honors them in the way they should be. And now, with this knowledge that I have, I totally get what I went through when I have my kids. And I just think so many women, when they hear that term go, Ah, okay, it wasn't just that I needed to suck it up. And I couldn't hack it. And, you know, I couldn't be that perfect mother and I was good. I thought I'd love it every minute. And I did in all conversely, I love it, but I'm different to who I was. And maybe my friendships look different, and my body looks different. And this understanding that I think he's powerful, I will say as well. And I wonder if you resonate with this that just like some people went through adolescence, and we're bloody great at it, like just knew what to wear. You had to go to I don't know, neither right parties to go to seem to have less glamorous photos of them, you know, just by party. Love. Yeah, really rocky adolescence, like, very awkward times, terrible outfits, incredibly nerdy. And I love that girl now so much, because I think she was so unique and weird and great and kooky and wrote a lot of poetry and just thought didn't know who she was in. Glorious. But I just think that's the same for women, like, go through retracements and love it, and some are gonna struggle on it's a huge spectrum. And then on the other end of it is a question I've been asking a lot I don't have an answer to and I'm not an expert. I'm just a mother and a musician with my stories. But what is a same reaction to a really difficult time in your life in contrast, and so what's a very difficult for tresses versus what is clinical diagnosis of postnatal depression or psychosis, and things that need medical intervention. And I think it's a really gray area. And something I've been speaking to professionals about now. And I'm interested to talk more about on my podcast because I think some of the rocky part of that early motherhood is just like, of course, you find these hard because it is bloody hard. But then there's also a line there, when is it appropriate? And medication and other options are very fast. So like Coca Cola in summer like soap is a pattern no matter what though, as your last flowers in bloom found the blue love if you don't become an ambassador for Coke, and also the Gidget foundation. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm really passionate about letting women and people out there know about their services. So cope has an amazing e directory where you can put in your postcode, and it will show you all of the services available in your area for whatever you need in that early parenthood, Merit Peri natal space. And lots of research. There's also a great app that you can download on your phone. So you can do screening for postnatal depression, privately, rather than having to go to a maternal health nurse necessarily. And there's wonderful maternal health nurses too, but can often be very confronting, and sometimes you feel a bit judged. And so doing that privately is great. So Koch is amazing. And the Gidget Foundation, have free counseling available online. So you can call a number and speak to someone immediately, as do Canada. And I would really encourage anyone listening to this to suspect they have a friend who's struggling a family member who's struggling, if they're struggling, it doesn't matter how long ago you had your baby, either. That or whatever you went through in the kind of perinatal mental health space, those surfaces and services are available. So anyway, I keep giving you very long winded answers. No, it's really good. Because you say you, you there's so many points you've raised, and I keep writing them down to come back to which is it's cool. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that. And that's really cool that you're you're an ambassador for them because I feel like I was actually talking to someone yesterday, and I can't even think who they were this is really bad when you talk to so many people. It all runs around in your head but it's same thing like I hacked back to my days of 15 years ago, prenatal class was basically teaching you how to watch a video of a natural birth. Just to freak you out a bit more and to scare all the dads. And basically the extent of you know, they taught you how to change a nappy, they gave you hints on settling, which were one of them was run your baby's pram over, like a lump on the floor, like, and I was like, Okay, now I realize how dumb that is. Sorry, not dumb, unhelpful. Some of it was. And the they got a guy to come and talk from Beyond Blue. And all I remember from him, was saying, I It's good going to be a bit rough. Yeah, so good luck with that. Like, I literally remember him saying, so good luck with that. And I just thought afterwards when, like, this is the culture of what you're giving mothers, this is what this is normal to give mothers and yeah, looking back on that I think my God, no one has struggled and just about lost it, you know. But the other thing you said, too, and I was actually thinking that the same thing when you were talking about it about the fine line, or the difference between just having a really crappy experience in that mattress since period? Or when does it get to that point of that, you know, needing medical intervention or whatever. And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, Wow, that sounds like my first experience. With my first son. I kept saying, like, my husband said to me, I reckon you've got that thing. They taught to be able to impregnate a class and like, No, I don't, I don't have postnatal depression, I'm just having a bad day, you know, and everything I could justify, I could say all night, just because I had a bad sleep all night. It's just because he didn't sit or, you know, I was telling myself these stories. And I even managed to slip through the cracks with the nurse that come round to and did like one of those cute hands or whatever. They are like the screener. You know, have you felt like this? Like, oh, I think it was like every day for the past two weeks. I was like, No, I haven't not for the past two weeks. But it's been a lot of days. But because I didn't meet those criteria. I was like, see, I have fun. So yeah, I didn't like that. There's still a lot to be said for that sort of intervention as well. But I wonder if that was it was just a really difficult period. And then because I had the next one there seven years between my kids for that reason of harrowing, not the greatest start, but I got really bad postnatal depression, and I was medicated and and almost hospitalized. But we didn't do that, because I wouldn't have been able to keep breastfeeding. So yeah, you sort of wonder if that first experience had have been a little more positive and more like sort of picked up by professionals or whatever that are maybe could have avoided the second one. I don't know. I'm so sorry, Alison. I mean, I had a really, it's so hard. Yeah. And do you know what I think too, I think we have to really kind to ourselves, because like with each baby, it's a new start of matriculants each time. Yeah. Which I don't think people say that you think I've had one? So the second one easy, I've done it like I'm warning, you know, right out. There's a difference between having no, it's not. And then the difference between having one and two is massive. And so and for each woman, it's really different, or each person I should say especially and I'm just so sorry, that happened to you, I think it's much more common than we think. And I know now, the rates are even higher from COVID. And I do think that this system is just failing women emotionally and spiritually, particularly, I think it's really undervalued just how important it is to really care from others. And that caring that needs to begin in the early part of your life really, before you even start to have kids and then through the transition in the hospital setting and then afterwards, and then the spaces that are okay to for you to actually be able to talk about how you feeling I agree. I I suspect I had postnatal but it went undiagnosed for that reason, because it was like, Are you feeling like this everyday? Well, no, not really. And also, you've asked me so many questions about my baby and he wasn't putting on weight and he had really bad reflux and I was advocating so much to him. I felt so scared that they would be like, well, she's a bad mother. She's not doing well. He's not putting on weight. And now she's like, What feeling like this and you just feel like you can't be honest. And even if you are honest, what support is there for you? Yeah, you know, is really, really super challenging. But I think the first step is talking to someone about it and having someone on the phone I think I didn't know at the time. That for me having someone to reach out to on the phone who's like a qualified counselor who can talk to you? And they're not, you know, without judgment where you can be honest and yeah, and all that stuff and just being real about the fact that Yeah, it's really hot. Yeah. Was like, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine having another child. Like, I just kept seeing myself in difficult situations. Like when I think about having a baby, it was all native. And that went on for, you know, almost seven years. Like it was just, I couldn't get past that. It was bizarre. Yeah. But now I've gotten two of them. And it's wonderful. Yeah. As I've gotten older, how old are they now? So 15 and nearly eight. So yeah, it's, I wouldn't recommend seven years age gap, if you're deliberately thinking of age gaps. They get on they get on well, at different times, depending on who's in charge, or who wants to do a particular thing. Because they are, you know, completely different places in their lives can be a little tricky. But I think the older that. Digby, my youngest, the older he gets, the easier it been for them to get on. Well, I think it's probably a fair thing to say. I'm ready to be given a find a flat by car. Taken. No one knows me here. That's what I was trying to say about who I was speaking to yesterday, that when were when we're thinking of becoming parents, and like you were saying, you think about what pram you're gonna get and what, you know, making your Pinterest board to make your nursery really beautiful. It's like, that should be like the last thing we do like that. It should be ingrained in our culture that you you search up, you have the support services in your phone, you know, you know, where you're gonna go, if you need help you have people who are going to make food for you all, you know, all this sort of stuff. It's, it's the after the birth stuff, when your home that you need the help with, it's the lady I spoke to yesterday, Mary, she said, she had this beautiful nursery in this beautiful car, and the baby never went in the car. She ended up giving it away. So yeah, I feel like I mean, I guess capitalism and commercialism drives that need for things to be new and pretty imperfect, and whatever, and this Instagram world where everything's got to look really good. But you know, getting back to the basics of actually caring for each other. And actually, I'm crapping on a fair bit now, but, but what I was what I noticed, when you were talking about the culture, I'm sorry, I can't remember what culture it was, but the lady you knew from your bookshop, and that basically, all she had to do is feed her baby nurse the baby, and then they'd even settle it and do everything else. And when I was in the worst throes of my postnatal depression, that was literally all I could do, I would feed him and give him back to my husband, and he would do everything else with him. So it was like, I was putting myself in that position without even you know, consciously realizing, I just needed so much help. And I was just, that was all I was capable of, and I couldn't even see myself leaving my bedroom. I had to be in my bed. You know, it was like this safe cocoon. So yeah, I was creating without even knowing I was creating that environment. Which is really, yeah. So interesting to hear. How did that change for you? But over the trajectory? Was there a point where you started to feel like I've got a handle on this, now I'm starting to heal. It took a while, like, we have, I mean, a regional town in my Gambia in South Australia. So we don't have a huge amount of services. But again, I didn't know they were there till I needed them. So it was this scramble, you know, when you need it, it's like, oh, my gosh, Googling things and whatever. But I was pleasantly surprised that we do actually have more services than I thought. So I had a a mental health nurse who would come over and just sit with us. And she wouldn't say anything. She was just there. And I got really familiar. My I think my husband, he found it a bit tricky, because he wasn't, you know, obviously he was in a different mental state than me. So he found it a bit weird that this lady was just sitting in our lounge room with us, but I really liked his, she was just there and she'd observe us and if I if I wanted to talk about things I could, and if I didn't want to, you know, she was just there and so I had her come on. For many weeks, and then one day, she said to me, I don't think I don't think you need me anymore. Because she said, she could just see the change in me physically, you know, from the first time she'd met me to, you know how I was interacting with the baby. And, you know, I was laughing a bit more, not just my demeanor had changed. And I was medicated pretty early on. So you know, you have that period of time, like, you know, three or four weeks for that to kick into your system. So that was a bit horrible. But yeah, if months, I guess my husband slept in the baby's room in a in a single bed, probably for about six months, I reckon, because I just couldn't bear the night times, they were the worst, because that was where all my triggers were when my previous baby was just being in the dark with a baby was just like, the worst thing I could imagine. So he took all that away from me. Yeah. And then one day said, Oh, do you reckon you reckon you might like to have a go or the way he said it? It was like a really kind way. It wasn't like, yeah, it was almost like a playful way. Like, do you think you might like to try and see how you go? I was like, God, not yet. No, not yet. It was sort of like no. But yeah, eventually. Yeah. So within the first year, I was back to relative normality. In my mental wellness, I think, what was it about the dark and babies that night? I think it was because I couldn't I had a lot of trouble settling him. And when I'd get him settled, he, he would wake up really easily. So it was like I felt trapped in there. I think it was like that. I'm in the dark. I'm by myself, like, no one else is helping me and I'm stuck here with this baby sort of thing. It was almost like a like I was Yeah. Yeah, like I was not abandoned. But I was the one that had to do it. And no one else was going to help me. sort of thing. Yeah. And yeah, it was horrible. And even in the daytime, he'd only sleep for 45 minutes. And, you know, to my detriment, I was reading this book that said, you know, you've got to get him to sleep for an hour and a half, blah, blah, blah. And so I'd be sitting in there in the dark, just patting and shushing, and patting his shushing, and this kid was ready to get up. But all the book told me I have to have to get him back to sleep. So in with my second child, are just like, I'm just going to do whatever the hell this kid wants, you know, like, he was just like, he's, he knows what he wants in his life, he wants to get up, he's gonna get up, just, you know, I just went in a completely different, completely different way. And I had a lot of time to think about it. So I had like, this list that I'd made, of all the things that I do differently. And I was actually just talking about this the other day to about and it wasn't necessarily practical things it was about myself, you know, like, don't be hard on yourself. It's doesn't matter if the house isn't clean. It's not a reflection on you how often the baby sleeps. And I was like, it doesn't matter if he has formula or if he's breastfed like it was all about taking the pressure off myself, basically. Because that's how I think I'd build up the first one, that it was all about me, I had to do everything I had to breastfeed him. You know, it was this real martyr sort of mentality, which wasn't very nice. Yeah. And do you know what the breastfeeding thing so I really struggled with breastfeeding. And I had been told by our hospital, like classes that you know, all women can breastfeed, some just can't have the pain. It's the only best way, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I remember writing it down. So I would play with such an a kind of a like, student, I was like making my little notes and being like, well, of course, I've run long distances, I know how to push through things, I'll be fine. And when it didn't work, no one said to me, formulas, fine. No one said, actually take the pressure off. A happy mom is much better for your baby than a mum that's struggling to breastfeed in an extraordinary amount of pain. And then, remember, the advice I got was, well, what you need to do is just keep on feeding. I remember calling like the breastfeeding hotline, and they'd be like, well, you're bleeding. You just keep feeding through that. And then you're not getting much milk. So what you need to do is feed the baby then you need to express and pomp and then you need to go and give them a top up a formula, because they're not putting on weight, then will weigh them all the time, like every day coming to the hospital. And because he vomited so much, he wasn't putting on weight anyway. But then I would be basically given advice, just not to sleep. But really, because by the time you do that, do it. You're not sleeping like what did that takes two hours, and then you're feeding them every two hours because they want you to increase their weight. And so I remember doing the same thing when I went to have my daughter and she's three my son's seven and she's three. I wrote myself a note because your hormones change so much. So you think you're going to be this rational person that you are before you have your baby. And during your pregnancy. You're pretty rational for me as soon as you have the baby It all kind of goes out the window. And remember, I'm reading my note to myself that said, you are doing this for two weeks. If it's not working, your formula is perfectly fine. And your baby will be perfectly fine. And I'm so glad I did that, because I did I just against their medical advice, because they like, I remember that this beautiful pediatrician was like, Well, yeah, you can actually stop. But like, don't tell anyone that I told you that you can stop breastfeeding. What total bullshit, like, everybody is unique. Everyone's baby's unique, you are unique. If someone had said that, to me that like just like some women are great at yoga, other women produce so much milk, they come back and feed a whole village. And you like I one of the women that probably in the village who's out organizing the fields, because you don't like sitting still. And so someone else would have fed your baby. Like, it's fine. Just like some women, it's just like all of us are unique. And even the relationship I didn't realize is that some babies have a different shape now to the nipple of the woman. And so there was just no way that they'd be able to feed because the baby has to come to the party just like you do, not to mention whatever you went through during your birth. And if you had a huge impact, and then also the way that you burst now I know can have an effect on your afterbirth and your motor presence because of the type of hormones and whether there was an interruption there, whether you had trauma from that, whether you were low in iron, all of that goes into milk production. And so there's just so it's so we're so mean, in a way the system feels me Yeah, yeah. And Jaggi. And yeah, like you're doing it wrong. Don't call me. And I'm actually interested in your perspective on this. This is not something that I have read in a study, it's just a gut feeling that I have full caveat. I'm a very creative person. I'm really great at a lot of things, talking music, writing, doing things that scare other people. Bloody Great. Admin, cleaning, turning off on time, total garbage. Fire on a calendar can't clean the fridge. Yeah, tell you the bloody I don't know, whatever day it is, I don't know, half the time. So like I have the skill set. But the other type of skill set for motherhood, I'm real shitter. And I think now excuse my language, I'm starting to progress. But now as I get all that, and my kids are getting older, I have the skill set that I think is really suited to that. But a lot of the baby stuff is like routine, and resting and staying still all the time, and not sleeping that much. And then like being at home in the same place doing the same thing every single day over and over again. And I wonder too, if you're a highly creative person who also needs that creativity to feel fill you up and feel like you and the excitement and adrenaline of new experiences. Motherhood rock can rob you of that. And I I wonder whether that's a piece of it to that as creatives and I think we're all designed to be creative, but highly sort of creative people with that scratching their head that needs to be etched because they constantly have to make stuff. Yeah, that I wonder whether that was a piece of it too. Huh. That's really interesting. I can totally resonate with what you're saying about cleaning. I seriously I just sometimes it's just not even on my radar. I don't even think about it. Because I'm just thinking of doing things. And I don't know. And then I think shivers, look at that carpet probably could do with a vacuum. But then do I go do it? Probably not straightaway. But you know what I mean? It's like your brain doesn't live in practical land, it lives in, I don't know, this different thing, which is finding their bodies. And also unique and special and great. And I think part of this struggle. I've written a song on my album called this mother thing which speaks into this fact the Lyric, will you go but also say will you grow but also never change? Tiny lungs, tiny beating hearts. This mother thing is full of scars. And it's kind of this idea that as a creative, I just constantly want to be left to my own devices to get weird and make it and get excited about the world. But then also I love my kids and I want them to be with me as well. And I'm constantly in this state of juggling of how do I make being a mother and a creative work. And actually I I think part of it is, we need if you are someone that has that creative urge all the time, and you're not great at cleaning, like, we actually have a cleaning, which I know is a real privilege, but also is the probably the thing that saves me parenting, because I just otherwise, it's just a disaster. And so I now see my cleaner as part of our company, as an employee, really, and I would keep for all go many things before I let them go. Really, life which is employed, which I know is a real privilege, and not everyone has access to that. But I but what I will say is having someone and speaking to Mira from my bookstore, in a village context, you would have so many other people around to do those kinds of chores and jobs for you that the light the load is lighter. And even I'm not surprised that having a mental health nurse come and sit with you was the thing that helped is really human beings are designed to be in community and with each other. And if you just had someone else with you during those night times, who can just say it's okay, you're doing a great job, and sit down and he's a cuppa, like, not even do anything just be around. I just think some people and I think most of us as humans, we just want connection we want community, which is what we were designed to have and modern lives in our particular Western Australian context, just a really detrimental for our heads and our hearts. And as mothers, you know, like I was speaking to a woman on PBS who was telling me in Ghana, where she grew up. Like she just didn't have any identity loss as a mother because everyone was she had like aunties, uncles, cousins, brothers, Little Kids, Big kids, people were around and everyone's breastfeeding together. And she'd seen women give birth around her for a long time. So it wasn't this like hidden experience. It's same with death. Death is hidden here. But it's not in other cultures. It's a part of everything. You know, like her grandparents were buried in her front garden. You know, it's like that kind of thing, which I'm not suggesting we do. But I guess what I mean is like our humanity, our ability to be present and alive in the world and understand what motherhood really means. It is, shouldn't be something that we wait to experience until we're eight and a half months pregnant. It should be like, we're breastfeeding with 10 other women, and you've seen it happen so much. And if it doesn't work for you, there's another woman there cannot who actually could feed your baby or can tell you, your nipples. We're not it's probably not going to happen to you. Let's get you some formula. You'll be fine. You know? Exactly. Yeah. Normalizing that experience. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you're talking about the breastfeeding before, that was something that my first child that I was just like, I have to do this. I remember sitting at the table, my kitchen table, and my mom was there. And I was just in tears, because I couldn't get this kid to attach properly. And I pushed through eventually things got better. And I fed him for a long time. But it was like I had this, this ridiculous, controlling thing that I had to do it. And my husband was like, Oh, do you want me to just go get some formula. I was like, No, don't get the formula. I'm doing it. Like it was just irrational, basically. So then, with my second one, one of my things was like, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't doesn't matter if he has formula, you know, 30 is best that was the thing I was telling myself not breast is best Fed is best doesn't matter how you baby gets fed. And just by a stroke of luck, I suppose not lucky for him. But when he was born, he was very, very small. And he was born by like, emergency severe. And so that's where sort of all all the started. So he was in one of those little humidity crib things, which I've been calling a hot box for a long time, but it actually has a name that I just referred to the baby in the Hotbox. So because he was in there, and he was away from me a bit. They just gave him formula. And I was like, this is fantastic. That's out of my hands. Now I haven't made this decision, you know, the pressures off me. It was just wonderful. You know, like, it was bad that he was in there. But you know what I mean? It was just the best thing that happened to me like, he couldn't live without me. Yeah, and that means that you can get some sleep. And if you're someone that does need a lot of sleep and you're not enjoying breastfeeding, or it's hard or you don't have enough milk or a million other things, some women who take medication they need to have means they can't breastfeed. Some women have had mastectomy is like there's just like a million different reasons why you might not need you might not be able to breastfeed. And it's just not that big a deal. And obviously in an ideal world, like there are lots and lots of benefits to breastfeeding. I'm not saying there aren't there are heaps and if it had worked for me, that would have been wonderful, but this idea that somehow we need to guilt mothers about it and be so hard and I said I think that paste, I'm so passionate about women being kind to themselves in. Because I think that's where so much of this stat is. And it's not an accident because culture is hard on us, then we are so hard on ourselves. And then we compare and think about what it should be. And if my friend can't breastfeed, but that's fine for her. But no, no, no, I must have these ridiculously high standards for myself. And I think also, something I write about in my songs self. So one of the lines that song talks about, I think birth trauma, which is what I experienced, and I'm assuming you had some deaths from the to from your story. So part of is that and actually one in three women, I think the statistic in Australia at the moment experience birth trauma form, which is a giant. Yeah, and it speaks into like, then the mental health outcomes for that flow on from there. And there's lots of reasons as to why that might be the case. And part of it is the system. There's lots of things that are broken. But that song self talks about that. The first line is a woman at the start broken open now thinking that shields fail, you can hold your own damn self, your self can still prevail. I remember being told it won't hurt. Miracle can push through the pain, but I'm bleeding, just try harder. And you should be better at it all. Here, take take all this shame. And to me that feeling of shame, and failure, and you should be better, why can't you do it was at the crux of so much that I struggled with in those early days of motherhood and it wasn't just what I was putting on myself. It was the culture that I gave birth in and then some of the midwives and the doctors that I came up against who was so dismissive of me and my needs and judgmental when I couldn't make what I thought you know, what I thought was gonna happen happen with the breastfeeding piece I just think there's there's just so much room for so much compassion, knowledge and education around all of it. And love I think we need to put love back in okay occasion this love this that's a really good point. And when you were talking about that judgment of, of medical professionals, like, this kindness, this compassion, like, it's like, I know they deliver babies every day, like they've done millions of them, whatever. But in that moment, you need a person that's gonna have your back and gonna support you like, I Sorry, I'm gonna get emotional but when the worst the thing that really now this isn't my podcast, this is your episode. But when when we arrived at a hospital to have Digby, the second one, the midwife that greeted us her first words to us, what are your late you were told to be here for an early induction. Why? Why weren't you here? And it's like, I just I almost burst into tears right then, because I have this thing. Just before like, the few days before I have a baby. I get really anxious. Like, oh my God, my life is gonna change. Oh my god, how's this gonna get out of me? Like all those big things. And on the way in the car, I was just so anxious, like both my boys have been induced. So I knew it was coming. You know, I had this time to build myself up into this frenzy of anxiousness. So when she said that I was just like, oh my god, really? Like I'm already feeling so vulnerable. And so yeah, vulnerable and she just spiked bang. And then she just kept going. It was like, Oh, he's in there waiting for you. It was like, Oh, my God, like, seriously, you're going to speak to me like this. Like I started I got really like, we're I was really upset. But I sort of tried to hold it together. And then she said something else about she wanted a a urine sample. And she just handed me the thing and just points that one just goes going there. I was like, oh my god, seriously, like it was just, I sat on the toilet and I burst into tears. And I just thought that she's not going to do this, like this is not okay. And I went back out there and I thought, okay, I can either tell her as I want a new midwife or I can just try and make peace with this woman, whatever's happened in her morning like she's bringing this to us. You know, it's obviously, you know, things aren't going well for this lady. So I basically walked out there and I put my hand on her shoulder and I said, Look, can we just start again? place. And she just took a massive sigh and she just sort of went like this. Like if she realized I think what she what she'd been doing. And she was totally different from that point. Apart from pride at the end, where we went for the urgency Cesar and she went and stood next to the wall like I can literally see an hour I'm pointing it was at the wall stood at the side of the wall with a back to the wall and just left me to it. And I was so afraid. And so like, because they'd already stuffed up my epidural. So I could still feel my contractions on one side of my body, he put it up too high. And so my at one point, my lungs, like my breathing was compromised. All these sort of, you know, stuff was happening. So I didn't trust that they were going to get this beat, right? Like I was in fear that I was going to feel everything that was my biggest fear. And so they were like, holding like a bag of ice on me. Can you feel that? And I said, I can feel the pressure, like Piglet, but can you feel cold? Like they were like, not attacking me, but they were like, Can you feel that sort of thing? It's like, but I can I can feel you touching me am I supposed to feel that, you know, I was there using their medical terms. And I'm using my like, and I can feel you touching me. So I was just in total fear. And thank God, this beautiful, amazing theater nurse came over and she held my hand and she stroked my head and she said, I know you're scared, it's going to be okay, we're all here to help you. And I burst into tears because like thank god, somebody cares for me sort of thing. You know, it was, again, maybe they've got themes of abandonment and stuff going on. But somehow I needed someone to help me. And she was amazing. And that entire that entire Severian I could obviously feel them pulling and whatever. But I laid there in fear because any second now I thought, I'm going to feel something really painful. Like I was just so afraid. Plus officer I was afraid for my child because he's, you know, he had to be gotten out quickly. Yeah, just this this kindness, kindness and compassion. And even you know, people mean well, but like, in my sister and I both talked about this, like nurses that had come in to help you breastfeed or whatever. What are you doing that for here? Or what's wrong here? What's wrong today, but just the language they use? I was in tears at some point because some woman just looked at me and said, What's the matter with you today? And I was like, Whoa, like just sent me off. Like, you know, you're so vulnerable when you read the you know, you feel like every nerve endings exposed and everything is going to set you off and then someone says something so off the cuff and they don't mean anything by it. But you just lose it. It's like they don't know that you know, they don't see that they're everything they do has an impact on us at that time. So yeah, compassion love caring after all, oh, sorry. Sorry for that experience. And I hope you leave the scene because I owe more stories that we can share my tears now. I know it's hard on it tell you that shame isn't your to hold your body this way let it sink in. Beautiful. They may see your beautiful, wonderful you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I will certainly do you know what I know now having spoken to a lot of women in this space, and there's a podcast episode I did with a friend of mine, Kim Beale, who's a woman client physio, and she does birth preparation and lots of things. She said one of the number one things to indicate that you're going to have a good birth is feeling safe. Because when you think about a cat, they will go under the house in a really dark warm spot. It's really enclosed. It's very quiet, in order for your body to do the things that it actually needs to do and it naturally should do. You need to feel so safe and your body needs to know that you're safe. It's not even just your mind. It's your body as an entity needs to breathe that safety and that calmness. And it's so fragile and precarious. So if you have a person like I had a woman when I went into labor and I started singing into the pain, I was told to shut up get back on the bed, you'll exhaust you Stop making that noise. Oh my god. Yeah. And I now know that singing into contractions. If you're a music person, or just anyone that has that vibration is perfect. It's perfect for opening new opening your cervix allowing for you did give the and I just think that even just that interruption let alone how that woman spoke to you and I had other interactions with her, of course your body when you're already anxious, and then your body is supposed to open. Of course things are gonna go right not to mention intervention and sometimes intervention is necessary. But there's so much research showing that if you intervene early, then things are more likely to be more painful, like with inductions and things I was induced to. And things just cascade and having that power and the knowledge that you need to set up this birth space for you. In however that looks however weird, you might think it is particularly as a creative being. Like I think about what I like and need when I'm making music. When I'm in my zone. I didn't think about my birth like that. I thought about it like a medical procedure, when actually I needed some weird and wonderful dark space with like insane music and candles and like, really cool witchy women in with me. So I could sing my way through it, you know, and it happened with my daughter. But by that point, I'd had such a sort of difficult birth injury for my son, that I had a planned cesarean with her because I just couldn't envision having lifelong or worse injuries and I already had with him. And in hindsight now I kind of wish that I had been able to have a birth where I felt I could sing her into the world. And it still breaks my heart. Because she's a singer she already singing. As a three year old, my son is so creative too. And I I get so sad thinking that I could have sung her into the hook her very first sign of life was this vibration. And I also think that's not my fault. And it's not something that I'm just I'm sad about. And I think it's important to acknowledge you can feel sad, but not beat yourself up about it. You're stuck in a system that isn't designed for you. And so I'm sorry, that experience happened to you too. So sorry. And I also feel like for other women going forward for my daughter, I'm just so passionate that she can find if she decides to have kids. If my little boy decides to have kids like that they've got all this knowledge they're armed with so that it may not go the way you plan in Him there will say that in that tonight's episode, like it may still go awry, you may still end up with an emergency subject to them. But if you've got this kind of birth map, where you know from the outset, right, when I get in there, these are the people that are going to be there, I know them and they know me, they care about me. That's a big one. They really care about me, whoever they are whoever they look like, if they're a midwife, I've known for years for my pregnancy, if they're a friend who's also human birth, who's going to make me feel safe. But then if things go wrong, these are all the different things that will happen. Because then if you feel in control and educated, you're less likely I was terrified to go I had surgery afterwards. And that fear of you just not trusting that they will do the right thing. And that's smart, because they hadn't didn't do the right. They stuffed up your you know, Fe juror which happened to a friend of mine to hers fell out of her back. And no one believed her. They said we put it in you can't be feeling anything, you know, like that. There's also inherent misogyny in the system that stems from that Christian Christianity really and that idea that Eve was cursed in childbirth. And so from that point on, you can see that in the medical profession, that women's pain overall is just less acknowledged less believed. The babies as well for my son's reflux. It took me six months to get a diagnosis. They just don't believe you weird, a particular and they think like endometriosis, all of these different conditions. I speak to another naturopath called Freya, Lola, about endo and chronic stress and hormones. I'm just so passionate that women get as much information not only about their birth, but also about menopause. How we go through our birth will affect how we menopause, about how we integrate our hormones, about the changes in our bodies and how our hormones fluctuate how to care for and eat better. So that when we do have these hormonal changes when we enter perimenopause, which I didn't even know it feedback. So that we write that we know why we feel rage, why we feel exhaustion, why we feel brain fog and how to eat and exercise around those things. And part of it is bringing our stress levels down, thinking about what our life looks like, and whether it's actually sustainable in its current form. It's there's so much care and knowledge that needs to be put back in that we used to have that's been taken from us. Even talking about periods and all that stuff without shame. Like, I just think it's just so important. And I think podcasting is a great medium for that, too, during having these discussions, because, and having like, What are you talking about your birth like that? I'm so hopeful there's someone listening to these studies and midwife or a doctor or an obstetrician or someone in the hospital setting, because I have found that with telling my story and my songs now that I do, and I did a live show over the weekend, where I did the same thing. Because so many of the women I've met since who are midwives on maternal health nurses have said to me, yes, I can imagine exactly who that woman was that Pat said that to you. I've met her I've met someone like her. But also, it's a great reminder for us, because we are just ticking boxes, we're going through the motions, we're exhausted, we're tired, we're underfunded and devalued. And so like that woman you met, you've had her she's lived her whole life before she's got there. And so being reminded that for each woman that comes in this is life or death, for her that view, it might be the seventh woman you've seen for the day, and how precarious and fragile, and in need of love and care we are in those spaces and, and allowing us to bring the love of the people in our lives, if we're lucky enough to have them into that room, or at least the people that we'd like to be there and not just thinking it's a purely medical thing. Because I think that would have made a difference. And at So, anyway, gosh, how did we get to here? But no, I have got a couple of medical people that listen. And there's one midwife in particular, who often will message me after some episodes, and be like, suggest, they'll suggest the name of maybe the doctor that I talked about, or someone they know, like, we're anywhere relatively smallish. I mean, we're not a small town, but we're a small regional center. So most people know who people are. So you know, if you're listening, Yvonne Hi. Hello. And I will say as well, through this work I've been doing taking this album around the kind of like that. So So for example, on Sunday, at the Wesleyan, there was this old pub, it was it used to be a church, and they've made this kind of bandroom we had candles everywhere. And all these women came it was so incredible. And just like midwives and maternal health nurses, women who are physios and women who are interested in birth, women who are just moms who've, like had a rough trot or just brought their mother's group along. And then there were couples that came in. We had Lauren Beatty, who's a psychologist who now runs these sessions called maternal journal, which are bringing mothers into circle to journal and make basically a very experiences. And so she spoke about the treatments. And then I played my story and my songs. And we all crying, it was like a pack sold out roots. So completely happened. Still wild to me. But just the feeling that people kept said to me afterwards, I feel lighter, I feel seen, I feel connected. I feel like so many other women in my life are going through something that I didn't know that well, their birth story, they told me in a kind of funny way, but now I actually understand how traumatic it was for them. And I noticed when the show finished, rather than people leaving, they all sat for ages having a glass of wine, just like laughing and talking. Yeah, that's that. That's really I mean, starting to do regional shows now because I do think women in regional areas, from what I've heard from you too much more isolated in lots of ways. And I did did one in yackandandah. And when in my whaler recently, I'm doing another one in ships. And I'm just really passionate now about taking the show on the road. going make women cry all over the country. All alone out. There but really, it's that meeting of all of the professionals in the space and the women who have cared for them, by them kind of connecting and bringing empathy back in and understanding. Can you come down here plates? genuinely love? Yes, seriously? Seriously? They will be. We have to talk about that after. Totally. I'm actually planning a show in Newcastle. And I'm thinking about going to the Northern Rivers, planning little adventures. I'm actually also been invited to go to the UK would leave it in Chile, so no oh my god for two weeks. I'm going over there with Amy Taylor to bad season. Oh, yeah. I know, she reminded me I know. You're gonna go play music to women in the UK and Ireland, and Scotland. And just for two weeks, I'm taking my music producers EQs 30 is like big burly biker tats. He's like, gonna play music with me. And he's a lot of fun. So very special. But yeah, let's talk. I would love that. Yes. Now, I've just realized that I haven't asked you about your children. Here are kids. I have to one of these three, my daughter and then my son is eight. He'll be eight in October. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I think coming to England, are you having a child, I'm going on my own. So I talked about lucky. He's amazing. And also, we just co parented from the very beginning, we have lucky like that we both worked from home in the company together. So he's probably a better parent means always. He's much more routines and like, he's great. So I'm very, very lucky to have that. And also family support to so yeah. A long time need to be away. But how and how are you feeling about that? But one of the topics that and I'm not wondering, like leading you into this to say that you have to feel this way. But I'm just linking it together, that we have, we have this thing called mum guilt in our society, unfortunately. Are you feeling you know, apprehensive about going or leaving them? Because you're going to do something that doesn't involve them? Or you'd like, Yes, I'm going, Okay, this people put up here, we're going to turn the podcast off. Once I save you know, that guilty in the beam. In the beam, I have huge amounts of guilt about a lot of things over time I was raised Catholic, it's part of it, the guilty, giant, giant guilt. And so but what happened to me over the past couple of years speaking to a woman after woman person after person was I started to hear this guilt month or guilt being like of the wanting to be with them, but wanting to be a way that this mother thing some speaks into this constant struggle. And I just realized, I ran hard at this creative project last year, for the first time in my life, I prioritize my work over my husband's, I prioritized it over a lot of other admin things and cleaning, and I just threw myself into it with as much gusto as I possibly could. Partly to save myself, I think because I was at such a low point, that was the thing that brought me back into myself. And what I've realized is, I thought, my kids would a suffer hate me, I'm the worst parent, everyone's gonna think I'm a terrible mother, all of this stuff. And that was my greatest fear in doing that. And so I didn't do it for a very long time. But what was kind of interesting about throwing myself into this work and creating something I'm so proud of is that, like, my son started drawing me for the first time, he usually draws like Pokemon transformers, and sometimes he's dead. And it's dead. There I am. Front and center in his drawings is a big heart on my chest with me standing on a stage. And he sees me as a person, not only as his mum, which is a really special thing. I know. Also, I'm privileged to have a partner who is on board, and I trust completely with all of it. That part of doing that was also writing down the list of everything I was doing for the mental load. So there's been a lot of layers, but it didn't happen overnight. The guilt in the beginning, like a lifelong process, will probably backstory, who knows, but I sat down with him. And I wrote down everything that I did in our lives, like I did the admin for our company, I facilitated so much of his creative work. Plus all the kids stuff. I wrote it down from the get go in my new detail, for example, uniforms. What size are they where to buy them from? How much are they? How many pairs? Like, yeah, he did the same. And I thought maybe it would be when we looked in. It was so powerful to see though that because he thought it was equal really, he's a one he's so aware and maybe that he could finally see all of the things and now I don't micromanage anything anymore. He takes on board like so many things. And I it's not a boss employee relationship. It's a Boss Boss. So he'll be like the vaccination did you I booked the GP appointment or the kids, this person's going to a party and I bought the present, I'm going to drive them, it's on Sunday at 10 o'clock. Like, that enabled me to fully expand into this credit project. And so the mother guilt thing, I just don't think serves us, I just don't think guilt is a is a helpful emotion. I think rage is, I think love is I think empathy is I think compassion is I think being critical, in a way, particularly in your art are like self critical. But in a way that's like I would call it as when I was a primary school teacher, being a critical friend, you know, like being real with yourself about like, what you could improve on. But the guilt thing doesn't help anyone. So I'm still going to do it anyway. So or what am I going to do spend the whole time feeling bad about the fact that I'm enjoying myself, like, get in the bin, that it would say, I love these, this idea of tempering joy, and I grew up doing this a lot that like I can enjoy this too much. Because something bad will happen? Or what if this happens, or like seeing your kids asleep? And you're like, Oh, this is beautiful. What if they die? You know, like, Oh, I do like to fail them? You know, like, yeah, we tempering our joy, but it doesn't actually change the outcome. So now I'm trying as best I can mangle in the been fully running towards the creative project that I get to do feeling bloody lucky and privileged that I'm getting to make it knowing that I think it's important to me as a human, for my kids and for my daughter to see me making and doing and being a full happy person. And oh, well if they go to school and their uniform labels peeling a bit. And I know they've had to forage around the back of the cupboard for some biscuits put in their lunchbox, so be it. Yeah, oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it, isn't it. And that this whole, I don't know that what we're trying to do, of breaking that cycle and changing this patriarchal society and all these things we've talked about with health care and mental wellness and things like it has to start somewhere. And if we keep showing their kids, that what we're doing is okay, and acceptable, then they'll just keep doing it in their next generation. So we have to make the changes, and we have to let the kids see the changes. Because kids will do much more of what they see than what you tell them and what you want. And when I've had my daughter, especially but for my son, just the same. What I want him to be is a person that isn't always happy because no one's happy all the time. But is content finds work that feels the map is purposeful, that has meaningful relationships that is kind to themselves, that notices the world and is curious about the world that understand their place in things and feels connected. And for them to be that I need to be that. And I'm not going to be that by obsessing over whether or not I've mopped the floors every day and how perfect my hair looks and whether my kids are perfect. Like I have a friend who I text MSC cupboards to. And I love that. That's good. Friends you miss, find them over when your house is a disaster zone, not when you've spent like an hour being sweaty and crying, fixing it. So perfect. So when they arrived, you're like, Oh, this is the, you know, like, and obviously I still do that too, because I carry a lot of shame around making things clean and having that organized stuff. But I think that's the real stuff. That's connection. That's what heals us. That's what makes us whole and that will make our kids whole let me tell you, they're not going to remember how perfect your house was. But they will remember how they made how you made them feel. And what they see do in the world. Yes, so well said absolutely. Yeah. Love that. Oh, do you feel like I'm gonna shake myself down? You know, we need things and you're like yeah, that's actually that's that's a real appeal. That's what I didn't get on the show. And like ducks do and honestly, you just have to shake off that shake up all the stories and the emotion like genuinely that's why we should do it more. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah, like there's a sock on Play School about shaky sillies out and like you let's we got to get it out of here. So then you could sit down because actually, that's fine yoga, they do all the assignments and then you sit down and meditate afterwards. It's like you've got all the movement. Yeah, yeah, I totally I think so much of healing is movement. And often now I've thought to myself, it's body to mind for me anyway. Like talk therapy is great as well and has its place but I think I met committees like getting your body right getting you got health right? Yeah. And that's yeah, that's something else but science is finally catching up with like, you know Western medicines finally realizing that we're naturopaths have been right for so many years love it when the heavens likes me I was thinking about my friends and hate him. When you walk across the room, I couldn't help us. Sad Hello You sad hello what I wanted to mention to you, I've been listening to your our, the matrices album on Spotify, which it's just, it's such a I don't know, it feels so reassuring. And I think from people that have been through this stuff, when you listen to it, it just makes you like you said it makes you feel heard. It makes you feel validated. But there's a couple of tracks that I was really, I thought were pretty cool feature to have. And at the start, you've got this incredible, like, inhale and exhale, and love. Was that like a deliberate thing? Or did you accidentally do that and then decide to leave it in there. Cuz I just love it. Look, I yelled done it now. So why that particular inhale happened when I wrote that song. When I sang, right? What I do is get very still. And I wrote that song in the back room of my singing teachers studio, as by myself. Very rare to get that as a mom, I think, but that's what I needed. It's almost meditative for me. And that song came out in about 20 minutes. I love it. When that happens. It's like, you know that it's meant to be like that don't yeah, it's just yeah, it just pours out of you. Yeah, it's like a creature, I feel. And that particular moment was that was when I record the way I write because I have a voice memo recording, so that I can just capture it all. Sometimes I'll be walking and stuff. And I'll capture that. But I had the voice memo on and if you listen really closely, there's like a feedback speaker as well, kind of making a sound that we then used in the track. And also, there's breath as beat track that runs through it. And yeah, that was from the original the moment when I wrote it. Took this like inhale, exhale, breath to kind of center myself. And then I wanted it left in there. That song was the first one I brought to zekiel Feminine music producer. And he seems on my other staff. And that was a brand new one and written like the day before. And I was like this is what I had. So clearly in my head. I wanted to snare drum run through it. I wanted this to use that breath and use that speaker sound and yeah, so we use the original voice memo, quite a lot of them in the in the album have that original voice memo recording. Wow. Oh, that's awesome. That's so cool. I love that. And the other thing I really liked too, is in one of the tracks free I think it is with this. There's a child counting like bringing in the template is that wonderful kids to either that's my daughter. Yeah. And you know, she was jumping off a bed. That's the same. That's a voice memo. She was jumping off the bed and just counting yourself down and check yourself again again. She's their own biggest, super loud and joyful and I just grabbed my voice memo on my phone and recorded it. And I will say that for anyone who's a songwriter, that voice or an app that Mike's actually really great. Quality is very good. I just like captured it and then I took it to Zeke and was like, I want to add this into free and Saturday. Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's like, oh, no, like, it reminds me of years ago, I went to a training call of training course a local person that was telling people how to run their Instagram accounts. And they said, You've got to keep like, because she did a like a one on one with her. And she said you've got to keep your own account, your private account separate to your singing account. You've got to create a new account just for you. And Kevin, keep you singing one I'm like, but that's me. Like that's who I am. And she's like, No, but that's that's like your business that's you think I'm like, but that's an I didn't do it because she was telling me to take all these things out and change them. It's like, but everything that's in that account is inspiration to me like my children are a massive inspiration to me. And I love that. You've got that crossing over it in your actual music that you're releasing of, of your children. And you're singing like it's literally the two worlds are together. I just love that. I love that. Thank you. That's such a big compliment. I agree with you. I I think people have a lot of opinions about how you should do the things. And I really think for me, that you just have to follow your gut really deeply. And the thing that you know, the most and the best is your lived experience. And when you make art that deep seated place, like and, and you can feel like it's small and very specific and kind of weird. But actually, everyone's their own special, unique brand of weird. And you're more likely to touch people when you're making art from these really specific, close places. And I think that was social media, which is this kind of unfortunate base that we're all in. But connecting. And yeah, I don't have a separate one for you know, it just all leaves in my account. Really, I have someone else that runs one futons pod into decimal, but we don't do much on there. Because really, I just Yeah, I want to make it from that place. And I don't speak too much about my kids. And I don't use their names because I'm also conscious, I want them to choose how they represent themselves when they decide to. But definitely, I wanted to just be to operate my music and my art and the same with my podcast as much. With as much heart and integrity and honesty as I could. Because that's what I needed. Like I really did it selfishly. I think there's a mate and amazing book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Have you read that? No, I haven't. I do love it as a creative. It's just like, I go back to that book, like the Bible every so often, just like her voice just seems out at you. And there's a really great section which talks about Tom Waits and his songwriting, and how he sees songwriting as creatures, which I had never, I've always felt like that and songs following me around. And I just thought everyone had that turned out. No, not the case. They were gonna get drunk and then write songs into their phone in the toilet cubicle. I thought that was I thought that was um, everyone that you know that he she there's a section in there about his creativity and songwriting and he talks to his songs and like, Come on, mate, you gotta get on the bus. Stop mucking around. Anyway. But this particular would be magic is so much great advice for creatives. And one of the things you said is for the love of God, don't make something for everyone else make it for you. And then if other people love it cool, like she's the author of Eat, Pray Love. She said, she wrote that book for her. Turns out lots of other people saw themselves in it. But yeah, that's so that's so the whole album I made. For me, I listened to those songs like friends when I was struggling in different parts of my life, which sounds weird that you might listen to your own music, but on their friends, their friends of mine, I wrote them, because that's what I needed in particular moments. And I seen them in particular moments. When we spent so long making good girls come read through as we wrap that up, we're gonna tear down this k two rounds, because we had this conversation. I can't remember who it was with now, but it was someone to do with music, the music industry, and it's like, it's literally an industry, it is a money making machine. And if you're going to try and get into that, you've got to be prepared to let go of who you are, and what your voice has got to say. Because you're not going to be doing it for yourself, you're going to be doing it for someone else who's trying to make money out of you. So it's like, don't write music for other people. That was literally where we're going. We're going with it. Same thing. Like if someone resonates with what you've written, that's amazing. That's like that connection is incredible. But that's not why you do it. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, um, I guess where I would say too, it's such a privilege and my, my therapist, Jules, who's just this incredibly amazing person and a creative to just says to me, don't put the guilt in the bin. Don't talk about like age, or where you're at or shoulda Coulda, Woulda, all that bullshit, bow down to the altar of the fact that you have the time and resources to make the art you want to make. And I'm at a point in my life. And I'm very privileged to say this, that I can make the music I want because it's completely independently funded. And I can do it how I want and the power of that, I think and at this time in my life as a mom, not a lot of women have that space and time in their life when I'm writing from this particular moment. On this new URL The Parenting phase when the kids are little. And I'd also say to that I couldn't have written this music. When I first had my newborn. I needed enough time to pass. Someone said this. You can't write from trauma you have to write from the scar. And I think that's really valuable advice to. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. Because we're going to talk about myself. Now, again, because I haven't done enough of it on your podcast clear that I've been at the very end of an album that I've been working on, for, I'd say almost three years about my posts now depression. And it's only six tracks. But do you think I could do it within you know, any cricket? No, because I think that's the thing you have to, you have to let time go. And also be able to mean, you have a lot of my stuff I've written from the point of view as back in there. And that's really hard to go back into. So sometimes you have to let a lot of time go before you're ready to actually go. Okay, I can go back into this now without make letting myself I'm not going to fall apart. If I think about it. You know what I mean? Yes, I think that's very true. That that I'm saying, Yeah, I can't wait to hear that album. No, neither can I No, it's, it's so different. Like my first album, I made, what 2019. And it's all just very, very under produced. It's like acoustic instruments, there's a couple of upbeat tracks. But this is just like, hardcore. They calling it a duck pop. So it's like, there's a lot going on. And this the tracks run chronologically from when it first came when I first got the post out depression, like couple of days in hospital, up to happy, wonderful land. So the tracks, you know, from the musical standpoint, like through the instrumentation, and the treatment of the songs tell that story too. So I'm really, really happy with with how it's gone. And yeah, it's, it's been a long time, but I don't know it. I think it just had to be that way. You know, things just happen when they happen. And also need to person. Yeah, but I totally agree with you that things got takes time. And really good art and truthful art takes as long as it's gonna take. Yeah, and you want to just feel like you've left nothing on the table? Or yeah, yeah. And that was I'm particularly felt like that with this. Because, I mean, who knows? What, if I'm gonna get another opportunity to, to, you know, have an album come out, you know, you just don't know what life will give you. And I don't know, I'm a little bit conscious to that, you know, because I'm an independent artists that the money's not coming from elsewhere. So it's like, you know, am I being really self indulgent, using, you know, family's money to do this thing. So it's like, I wanted to do give it the best go, it could have, you know, and make all the sounds that I wanted it to make and go back and forth with the producers because they're in Spain and Argentina, the people I'm working with, so Wow, it's like I've, if I'm the sort of person I've been a bit of a people pleaser, sometimes with my music. If someone's had a suggestion, oh, yeah, that sounds fine. And really, inside, I'm going no, I don't like that at all. But I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to be the person that causes trouble. I want you to like me, you know, that sort of stuff. But with this, I've gone no, I'm paying you to make this. And I don't have to talk to your face to do it. So I'm going to tell you if I don't like something, which I really haven't had to do much off. To be honest, they've been pretty amazing. But yeah, be conscious of, of, you know, you never know when you'll get your last shot at something. That sounds really morbid, but not I'm not talking like a mike die necessarily. I'm just it's like, you know, I'm 40 How old am I? 45. I hope my voice lasts forever. But I mean, I've had to, I've also had two rounds of COVID. So I don't even know. Like I tried to sing yesterday. And it wasn't that great. So I don't know if my voice is actually permanently damaged from you know, COVID pneumonia. COVID. Again, bronchitis for the last six months, like who knows, you know, just in general life. So anyway, sorry, I'm rambling a bit now. But no, you know, it makes so much sense. It absolutely. Isn't the right I can really believe that. And I think I like you know, it's jewelry for the inside of people's mind. So it doesn't matter. No. But also, yes, absolutely. All of it matters. It's the most important thing. And I think that's that that was inescapable talks about that those two things can be absolutely true. That if you're going to make something you make it absolutely the absolute best that you can and and I think as women, particularly we're socialized to not be difficult to want people to like have all of that stuff. But we just need to you need to trust your own instincts in your own gut and go it's not good enough, not good enough. It's not good enough. And I want it to be this I want it to be that this is my vision and and I think blokes have been doing that for a very particular white boy. For a very long time, you know, and I think the more interesting art is coming from that place where you, you don't want to ever think that you've got to the end of it and gone. Just that bit. What if I'd taken that risk? What if I, you know, go back into the work when you think it's done? And you're like, well, it'll probably do No, you'd go back in, you'd go back in and dig a bit deeper. And you and that's what I think I felt at the end of my album that like, however it comes, whatever happens after this point. I know that thing within the introverts life, I decided how you know, and I worked with Zeke, and I was lucky in that he was really amazing to work with. And also could do what I wanted, and I could hear it, but I could tell him, no, that's not what I want. This is what I want and change it and put ego out of it. And yeah, so I was very lucky in that collaborative process. But I think also I just, yeah, like you were saying, you just want to feel like you've given it your absolute best shot. So you're proud of it? Yeah, then you walk with it in the world. It doesn't matter if anyone else likes it or not. You are proud of it. Yeah, that's it is, you know, every inch of it. And you can be like, well, look at this thing. That's amazing that I've done. And then you know, in your heart when it's really as good as you could have made it, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing, like, too, you know, you're talking about hearing bits and thinking are, you know, I wish I had done that I do that so much with my first album, and to the point where I actually recorded some of the songs with other people, with other producers, and did remixes of them, because I just felt like, and also, it was very rushed. Like, we did it in two weeks. And it was just, I'd never recommend doing that. My mom wouldn't do it again. So I take three, so the next one. But yeah, it's just like, bang, bang, it's got to be done. And it's like, no, there's so much that I listened to and I think, Jesus, I wish I'd said something about that. But then, you know, over time, I have the opportunity to, to re record things, which is also privilege, up through the whisper, laugh. Do I think I need you to let me show you. Want to ask you about when are you going to the UK. So it's just happened a couple of days ago. So I'm going I'm leaving on the 28th of June. I'm going over there for the first of July, most likely for a conference, I'm playing in a conference and then I'm just going to be touring. So I'm currently figuring out how to do that, what venues to go to where to play. I'm going to Exeter there's a group of women down there who are running mothers who make which are these big kind of motherhood, creativity stuff. So going there to do some, a little couple of songs in shows. But really, I'm going on my own same with my music producers at an a&e. And yeah, just putting on shows probably ticketed shows in pubs and that kind of stuff, learning how to do that as I go. But yeah, really super excited about it. And then I actually have a show in Sydney on the 30th of July at the great club in Marrickville. Oh, yes, I know. Alison, who runs it? She used to live in that game. Yeah, yeah. She's pretty awesome seeing it yourself. Wow. Yeah. Well, I sort of I saw that there was women running it. And I thought I want to be involved in that. And I haven't actually been there to the venue. But I've, from what I've seen, it looks really cool. So I've actually got Amy Taylor kebabs. He's going to speak first. So she's doing a speech about my dressing. And then I performed my album. And there's a dancer from Sydney called Aryan Basten, who's also an author that her book on perinatal mental health is coming out this year. And she's written about her experience of postnatal psychosis. But she actually sent me a dance that she'd created to my song self over Instagram. That just blew me away. I didn't know anything about her story. I just saw her dancing. And I saw in her movement that she understood me. She's that's pretty, that's pretty powerful. And so she's going to perform duet with me. So I'm going to sing self, which is that song about breastfeeding and, you know, woman at the start broken open now and that story, so she's going to dance and I'm going to see, Amy will speak and we're going to tell stories. And yeah, so Tickets are available now for that, and that's on the 30th of July. Oh, beautiful. Well, I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. And so people can click on there and see all your goodies. It's a lovely website Who does your drawings of like on your hour? and your little icons and things. My friend, Annabel one. So she's an illustrator from Melbourne. She's a friend of my brothers Actually, she's great. And I had a vision for the image of the front cover, and I do it in pencil. I'm a terrible visual artist. But I had the vision of it. And so she kind of brought it to life. It's lovely. Got the like, the heart is like exposed. It's like, yeah, we'll talk about that a bit about your ID for that front cover. Yeah, so I wanted an image that would capture how I felt when I became a man. And, to me that, it's like having you everything's exposed as like a raw nerve. And also, I think, that idea of an open heart, you are changed. And your heart is now kind of walking around in the world without you sometimes they're at school at your kids. And I wanted to show like, also, like, I'm not wearing any, it's not nude painting, but at the I don't have any like clothes on, you can just see me down to my clavicles with my open heart. It's kind of also reminiscent of sort of biblical art as well. And I got the inspiration to from Florence and the machines album lungs, you know, she has her lungs exposed on her artwork. Yeah, right. Yeah. So but really, I wanted an image that would capture all of it, because I actually when I drew that image, I didn't know I was gonna call it my presence. I didn't know that word. I just was writing what I was feeling. And the songs aren't just about motherhood they're about because of the complexity of being human really, and having big feelings. And so for me, I'm a very deeply feeling person, and my heart is very close to my skin all the time. So that's what I wanted to capture. Yeah, yeah. No, it definitely works. It's Yes, really good. Shoulder to face. So many faces go to places where we get to find books and battles, songs and schemes, somehow left, is there anything else you want to mention before I let you go? A lot today. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. I'll look, I would just like to say if you're a mom listening to this, you're doing a great job, be kind to yourself, give yourself a massive hug, make a cup of tea, put your feet up, if you can. So that I would love to say again, what I would also say is if you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Claire 20. That's probably where everything lives. My website, Cliff twenty.com Is the other spot where you can find about all my events and ticketing, all of that stuff. And I've got beautiful t shirt designs too. So if you like the artwork, you can t shirt with some of them on there's a moss, which is this Each song has its own symbol. So when you come to my show, I give you a lyrics booklet, like a an old school CD cover that has a artwork for each song. And each one has a symbol. So self has the mark because it's the idea of transformation in the darkness. And moths seek light. And to me that's what motherhood and mothering was, in those times so much time spent in the dark, waiting for the light to come. And I was transforming and I didn't realize so that's that kind of I have a T shirt with the math on it for that reason. Really powerful symbol. Lots of things to do with the moon as well, really. So yeah, you can find me over there. I have records as well. I would also say my podcast tons. The new season will be coming out later in the year. But I've got three seasons worth of really rich discussion with women and diverse voices about lots of topics. If you're particularly interested in chronic stress and hormones and you're feeling depleted, gone find that episode with fryer will tell you you won't regret it. It's the story of how I healed outside of music. Everything I did from food and medication and looking at diet and testing and just lots of things that helped me recover from long COVID symptoms. Yeah, that's a really valuable one. And, and yeah, come to a show and if you want me to come play in your area, I bloody love to I'm looking for places to come and bring the music so if you're someone out there that thinks your group of parents or women or community would like some music hit me up. Yeah, good on you. Oh, look. Thank you Claire. It's been so lovely and thank you for spending so much time with me today. We just looked at the clock. Just always made it to Uh, well before my little stuff up in the middle you know what, you know how I fixed the camera? I literally turned the computer off and on and then I started working that's The IT Crowd isn't it? Have you tried turning it off and on? I always joke about that someone made a joke once about if your car wasn't working you just get out shut the door open get back in again. And it should work. It's like a computer we often think that human beings are the same sometimes you just need to turn ourselves off face it yeah right yeah that's what people who do me a favor just go radical rest. I'm really all about that. Reading on Nast. Oh, just bloody. Yeah, so much can be solved in life with a bit more rest. I know that's a privilege but I also think some of the things we do we do out of obligation and guilt checking in the bean and have a nap. Yes, there you go. Chuck it in the bin. That's that's the theme of this show today chuck in the thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

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