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Fiona Valentine Melbourne artist + artist business coach S2 Ep54 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes ) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, a visual artist + a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and a mother of 2. Fiona grew up a creative child, her mother enjoyed drawing, she was influenced by her, she received her first oil paint set at the age of 12, and she did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After high school finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age Fiona found herself with a new baby, living in a mud hut in Niger in Africa. She put her art aside, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, that it felt frivolous, it didn't seem like it had a place. This was a decision she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia, with 2 children. She then realised how crucial her art was to her life balance, she taught herself watercolour and acrylic. She delved into training, joining the Australian Guild of Realist Artists. The life changing training she received lead her to share her love of artwork and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delved back into her creativity. We chat today about how finding your creativity can enhance other parts of your life, creating new neural pathways in your brain, finding new ways to create and looking at things differently. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression, autism + Asperger's syndrome** Connect with Fiona website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website What is a lean specialist? Kate Northrup book "Do Less" Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the bonding people as the traditional owners of the land which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, vas a visual artist and a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom of two. Fiona grew up as a creative child. Her mother enjoyed drawing. She was influenced by her and received her first oil paint set at the age of 12. She did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After High School finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age, Fiona found herself with a newborn baby living in a mud house in New Year in Africa. She put aside her art, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, then it felt frivolous. It didn't seem like he had a place. This was a decision that she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia with two children. She then realized how crucial her art was to her life balance. She taught herself watercolors and acrylics. She delved into training, joining the Australian guild of real estate artists. The life changing training she received led her to share her love of artwork, and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delves back into her creativity. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression, autism and Asperger's syndrome. The music you'll hear today is from Australian New Age ambient music trio lmJ which features myself my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you too nice to meet somebody who's podcasting on this continent. Oh whereabouts are you? I'm in Melbourne. Our lovely my mum was born in Altona that down at the beachside suburb. So it's been a lot of time going to Melbourne over the years. So yeah, we my sister was born in Adelaide. So while our family were there, so we've been done the South Australia Victoria. Have you gone through Mount Gambier much on your way? Between there you go the the upwards upwards route? Well, we were actually in Moogerah for a few years. So we often also between Algeria and Adelaide. Yeah, I've done that. And yeah, I don't I don't think we went through Mount Gambier very often. Is that where you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm getting an amount. Yep. Not many people like that. I talked to on you know, Mount Gambier at all. So I know people have lived there, but I don't think I've ever actually been there. Yeah. Okay, I was born here. But I've lived all over. I grew up pretty nomadic childhood. And I lived in like four countries. The first five years I was married. We've been settled in the same street in Melbourne for nearly 20 years now, which is great. That would be really hectic, like moving like countries, little line moving, you know, towns moving countries. Yeah, you get good at it. You probably wouldn't like want to accumulate too much stuff, either. Because you sort of, you know, when you go next place, you'd be like, Oh, I don't want to take too much baggage, I suppose. Yeah, you learn. You don't want to have to carry too much with you. But you also learn to I think that objects are they have a sacredness about them and you can't just clear out everything because they hold our stories. And you want to take some of that familiarity and comfort with you even in an overseas move, which gets trickier because you have to weigh everything Tell us about yourself. You're watercolor artists and you are an art coach as well can you share sort of how you got into painting like growing up what you was, was that sort of your main art form of there any influences how you got into it, I really, I just always enjoyed the idea of being creative. And painting and drawing. Were very interesting to me. My mom was really supportive. And she liked to sketch and I still have my first oil paint box that she bought me when I was 12. And I got some really good training, when I was in high school, living in the country, just a really tiny school. But we did some courses on drawing and watercolor. So I got some good skills early on, which was really helpful. And then later I had, I worked with an artist who taught us how to draw from little still life settings and things like that gave me a bit of oil painting, tuition, but then I didn't really do a whole lot with it. I went overseas after high school. And I thought I was going on a six month trip to teach kids to read. And the trip got extended, I met my husband, we got married here in Australia and went back overseas. So my life took a little bit different path than I thought it was going to. And so I found myself with a new baby in a madhouse in Africa, thinking that my creativity felt really self indulgent and frivolous. And I made a really bad decision to just sort of put it aside because in light of poverty and suffering, and it just didn't seem like it had a place. But that was just, you know, her 23. What did I know? If I'd had another voice at the time helping me see how these things could work together, it would have been really helpful. But instead, yeah, I hit my 30s, my, I had two girls, by now I was back in Australia. And I really started to understand how core creativity was, to me, as a person to all human beings. We're just we're born creative, we just don't always recognize it, or develop it. And I really began to treasure that and see how crucial it was to my balance and well being as a human. For me, it was a connection with God as well, just that was how I was wired, for relationship with him. So I really made it a priority. I'm mobile, I read everything I could from the library, and taught myself first of all, watercolor. And then I moved on to acrylic, and then finally got my brave up to try oil. And I just loved it. And that's where I started to get some training. Then I joined the Australian guild of realist artists. And they were running winter schools for a few years, we could go for a week and spend time with some master artists. And it was absolutely life changing fan tastic got introduced to much more skill based training for realism, and composition and drawing and painting and color use. And it was wonderful. So that really helped me build my skills and understand how to create the kind of art that I was really interested in. There are so many things you've just said in there that I want to ask you about. But the one that sticks out is the mud hot living in Africa. Can you give us a bit of background, how you actually ended up there? What was the circumstances that brought you to living there? It wasn't something I ever thought would happen. When I chose this trip of going to Africa, I thought I'd be in a fairly rural setting. But for just a few months, it turned out I was in a large town that was you know, had stores and cars and all that sort of thing, electricity. And I lived with another couple. After I met my husband, we went back to that same town and we worked in an international school. And so we were helping kids with transition. We did some training in the US, which actually helped us as well as everybody else on how to make those big moves and handle them. When you're going across cultures. Maybe you've spent many years in one culture and now you're moving permanently to another one. Just how that affects us was fascinating stuff. And then we moved in Tunisia and we live just south of the Sahara desert in very small mud village. And it wasn't actually a heart although it was mud. It didn't have electricity or running water. It was sort of like a three bedroom house, and we put a kitchen in one of the so called bedrooms, and and nothing was really square. And it was very hot. So we slept outside. Oh, wow. And sort of had to run the hose at three in the morning because we were on a bit of a hill, when the rest of the town didn't have the water on, we could actually get the hose to work and fill up some barrels with water. Oh my gosh. So it was pretty crazy. We had some solar power. Yep. And we would go bushing outfall drive because we were working with nomads, so we would go out and stay with them slip on sand. The stars were amazing. But it was a pretty full on existence, you know, just making sure you had clean water, putting it through the filter, baking bread, ground grinding meat, just surviving was an language learning was pretty tough with a with a new baby. It was a pretty extreme, really extreme time. But we weren't there terribly long. After about 18 months, we came back to Australia. And we had planned to go back. But for lots of reasons it it was clear to us it was right to stay here in Australia. And we had another baby and daughter life here. Yeah, though, like, let alone, you know, take the fact that you've got a baby out of the mix, that would still be incredibly challenging. But then obviously, that's a whole like, yeah, that's like I can't get around that was really big. And for lots of reasons. Although I loved it. I loved being there. And I was really committed to being there to what we were doing. It also took a heavy toll on me. And I think part of that, I mean, often, postpartum depression can be a thing that we face, whether that's hormones, or whatever it is. And being separated from my support system. I think that was a big part of it, too. A friend who's a psychologist who works with moms, has identified grief, actually, if we're separated from our mother, by, you know, could be relationship reasons, or, or death or distance. But when we don't have that mother support that village, that other women in our life caring for us, we actually go through grief, but it's often not recognized. Often it's misdiagnosed as depression. That was another piece I learned recently that made me think, Aha, I think there was some of that going on. Plus the creative piece of making that choice to think no, no. In this context, that would just be so self indulgent, instead of saying no, no, it would have been something to really help me navigate that tough time. Yeah, I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from both sides of the coin there. Yeah, I can imagine if you're if you're Yeah, if you if you're worrying about having, you know, potable water that you're, you know, that's important. And then if you're using water to paint, you'd think or is that the right thing to do you know what I mean? You'd be questioning this the ethics behind it, I suppose, like, you know, if people are struggling to get clean water, and I'm using it to dip my paintbrush eat like, you know what I mean? Yes, yes, just the simple things can feel indulgent. And there's also a strange feeling of if someone else is suffering, then who am I to not be suffering? And, yeah, you can't go into a situation in a third world country as a Westerner and not feel that there's a difference in lifestyle here. There has to be if I if I didn't maintain drinking water, or you know, some measure of Western food, I probably wouldn't survive. I haven't grown up learning to just deal with a particular environment. Yeah, a harsh environment. So there's some of it, that's necessity, but trying to work out. How much of that helps and how much just be free of it. It's just the way it is. And just be be myself and understand that these women around me, they're enjoying their creativity. It may be different than the way I would Yeah, but they're embroidering. They're making designs. They like the way things look. And they love having a new dress like I do. They're just doing it slightly differently in their context. I didn't need to feel that way. I understand why I did. But if I'd had, I guess, probably just some more time to grow up. If I had more understanding, I could have been kinder to myself. But I think even now, you know, I think people when they see trouble in the world, they can feel like their creativity isn't as important and the need to do something really makes a difference. And they forget that actually, our creativity is hugely powerful both for our own coping stress, and for the things that we make, and how they help create home environments that help us cope with stress, or work environments that help us be productive, or healthcare environments that heal. So if if creativity is something that's really your thing, whether it's music, whether it's art, it's so powerful. When you're saying, talking, then I just had that thought, just recently with the conflict in Ukraine, that there was a footage I saw of a, a gentleman whose son had been in the hospital with being traded in Ukraine, and as the son had been finally discharged, and the dad played his saxophone for the, the doctors and nurses and the other patients there as his little thank you. And, you know, you think that if you play the saxophone or sing or something, you think that so simplistic, I do that all the time. But in that context, you know, the, the joy that it can bring others in, you know, the emotions, and the connection that it creates, you know, is huge, you know, and remembering to do that for ourselves, and our own household, and the people who buy our albums or buy our paintings. It's not just about racing off to a part of the world that suffering and doing something about it, although we feel that it's often just seeing how am I bringing the healing of creativity, the joy of it to my everyday life? My family's everyday life? And my customers everyday life? Yeah, that's, that's so important. That's it, that's a massive point. When you came back to Australia, when was the point that you sort of realized, I'm feel like I've lost myself, I've lost my creativity. And I need to get it back. You talked about you started to do some reading and stuff was there one moment where you just went, I need to change this was it sort of, there were a couple of moments, I knew I was underweight, struggling with my mental health, and not in a good place, which kind of surprised me, because I had been so excited about being in Africa, and so committed to the work that we were doing. But that doesn't stop environments, and even the spiritual environment we're in, and an environment where placing curses on people is a part of normal, everyday life. And if you've never encountered that, and don't really think it's a thing, that doesn't mean it's not a thing. So it was a lot in that environment that I was perhaps only even partially aware of. So I knew when I got back, I needed something needed to change. And I, I kind of felt like creativity was part of it. So gardening was a gentle beginning. As I became more confident in how important my creativity was, quilting became part of it. And then eventually, I was like, Okay, I really want to make space for painting. And a few years had gone by at this point. And there were some, some theological learnings, really just discovering that God is three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that their community of friendship and joy is creative. That was a real lightbulb moment for me as a Christian going, Wow, that my creativity is not just my thing, and a self indulgent thing, it's deeply core to the nature of God and the relationship has invited me into and for me, that was the biggest, okay, I get it, I get why this is core to who I am, and to my life and to my relationship with God. And it gave me the freedom to say I'm going to pour resources at this time I'm going to invest in growing my creative skills and drawing and painting in the way that I've been wanting to. For years I've been dabbling with music and gardening and quilting, but yeah, just it gave me the yes let's dive in. Yeah, yeah, almost like that. That not permission but that reassurance I suppose that you felt like yes, this is this is it and this is important and it is a value and I can see Yeah, that I'm supporting this I suppose as well. You felt really sure really comfortable with that. So you also work as an art Coach, can you share with us about what you do there? I've been teaching drawing and painting for a few years. And that was how I made the transition from being an admin manager. After homeschooling my kids, I needed a job, they went to school. And that's what I ended up doing. I learned a lot of business skills doing that. And then I just the desire to paint more got really strong. So I built up workshops and classes on the side until I could replace my salary. And during that process, that teacher, part of me, really came alive again. And so I've been juggling my own painting and teaching for quite some time. And I started to have this desire to teach beyond just the class session, because I could see the transformation that was happening in people's lives. So I started luxury art retreats, where women could come for three days, we went to the Yarra Valley, state and beautiful country hotel. And I taught them my six keys to painting, and just watching their dreams come alive, because I get them to start with, who are you? What do you love? What do you enjoy? What subject is most important to you? What style do you like the most start there. And then just learned those things, because there isn't time to learn everything. So learn how to make the kind of art that you most like making. I mean, if you're a musician, you don't feel like you have to sing classical jazz country. You don't have to do it all you kind of know what you like. And you go with that. Yeah. So I kind of took that pathway with helping my students find focus. And then watching these women come live and realizing as I was growing my own art business, and investing in courses and coaching, learning, aha, that this message, I'm hearing so often that it's really hard to sell art. Or you need to get into art shows and win awards. Or you need to get gallery representation. And this is how you do it. I started to think now I think there's another way and I started to realize the entrepreneurial opportunity of the internet for artists. So I started building, how to help artists move on from painting, to being able to do what I've done, and create a side hustle from the art and even a full time business. And so now that's really what I focus on. As a business coach for artists, I've created the profitable artist method. And I teach artists how to get clarity on what they really want to make, and who it's for. Get clarity on how much time they want to spend and how much money they want or need to make. And to build a simple business and marketing plan from there. Yeah, right. That's awesome. Because I think that there is there is this not what the word is, this can be a misconception, I suppose at least this way we see the starving artists, you know that, you know, art's not a real job, you can't make money out of art, you know, and you're basically kicking that to the curb and going no, actually, if you do it in the, you know, particular way, in a particular method, then there's so many opportunities for making a living from your art, for sure. I believe real artists don't starve they thrive. But it does mean recognizing that as an artist, you're not only an art ambassador, you're also an artist, entrepreneur, you're in business, if you want to make a living from your art, and that doesn't. That's not selling out. That's not compromising your creativity. It's an extension of it. Yeah, so it's looking at it in a different way of, you know, taking ownership of it and seeing it as a business rather than I don't know, just a hobby in real cities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. And that can be a challenging mindset, I think for for some people to sort of see that in the barriers, like you said that that selling out mentality, which I'm putting in air quotes. That, yeah, it's, it's if it's what you want, then why should you be held back by you know, maybe some beliefs that you've had in the past or people around you have these certain beliefs? Do you encounter encounter sort of that sort of pushback from people when they're going through that transition? Yes, it can be there, even if they don't fully believe it for themselves. Maybe they doubt themselves? Have I got what it takes? Or they worry? It's about talent? How do I know if I'm talented enough? Whereas actually, I think the more we understand brain science, the more we realize, the people we have thought were the most talented, have actually benefited from training and practice. Those are skills that have been developed. It's not really even in the case of someone like Mozart. It's not just about talent. It's about the environment, the training, the practice, the discipline, that It's really liberating. Because if you can learn art skills to grow your art ability, you can also learn business skills to grow, that even if you're not techie, or you've never had business experience, there are some really simple things you can do. To make sure that as you create work, you share that work with people who love what you love, and can afford to buy it. And you make a buying experience, which these days we can do online, so that they can buy from you. And you create this whole ecosystem using social media and an email list and website. So you, I mean, you're asking that pushback. Yes, there's pushback, but really, there are a lot of people who hold on to this sort of toxic suffering starving artist thing. I just think why you don't need to. So ask yourself, Do I want to thrive? Do I want to make art I love and make a living and build a life I love or do I want to starve for me? I know which one I want? Yeah, that's awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. I want to talk a bit about your own children. Can you share? You've got two children. I've got two girls and they're grown and in their 20s. Now, yeah. One's a nurse. And one has worked as a library assistant. She's currently doing some writing and working, helping me actually quite a bit at home. And yeah, they aren't at all. They yes or no, no, in the sense that neither of them have a desire to be making drawings and paintings. They're both quite creative. My oldest daughter who's a nurse is very creative. And she really brings just this amazing problem solving people caring, empathic sense to her nursing and palliative care. And the other ones come up with a really creative ways of challenging kids who don't love reading, to do a six chapter challenge. That's what she calls it. Read the first six chapters of this book I recommend, and if you still don't like it, I'll give you another one. By the time they get six chapters in their heart, yeah, lots of converts. So yeah, their creativity comes out in different ways than art. That sort of goes back to what you were saying earlier about how we are innately who humans are creative beings. But I think there's a lot of people that discount that in themselves. And even some women that I've approached to be on this podcast, perhaps looking at themselves a different way to where I am as a as an outsider, I see someone who is creating something who's, you know, has created something from scratch and is, is making it work and making changes to it as they go. And I see that as a creative person. And they'd say, Oh, but I don't make anything that cycle. It's not about necessarily making something and having something in your hand that right. Yeah, can you can you sort of expand on that a little bit? Yeah, my husband, Mike is a lien specialist these days. I don't know if you've come across the lien. But it's a whole system of tools and behaviors that helps businesses to work efficiently and helps them to value people and use tools and systems so that they can reduce waste, reduce overwork, not pass on poor quality, things like that. So it makes millions of dollars worth of difference to big companies. But the principles are really amazingly simple and helpful. So as he and I've talked over the years, you know, having a glass of wine sitting down, he's talking about Lean, I'm talking about art talking about our day. We've just seen how many of these things come together. So I actually created a program for businesses called The Art of innovation, using classical drawing to help businesses see 50% of people don't think they're creative. The reality is 100% of us are and if you're going to have a business committed to continuous improvement, you've got to help your people tap into their creativity. They're not going to be creative if they don't think they've got the goods. So add a drawing can be a great way to realize Oh, with a bit of training, oh my goodness, look at that amazingly realistic. Foot I just drew, with these three steps you just taught me Wow. Okay, I'm more creative than I thought. And it's not that being creative is about making art, as you said, or making anything is about recognizing I have this potential, to think of something, to think about it, to think about the problems, to think about the solutions, and to make changes. And my thinking, and my ideas want to understand how my brain works, and how I make tiny new connections that feel so awkward and uncomfortable, and how they can grow. And with repetition, they can practice and develop until we've got like these superhighways of information in our heads where things travel quick, fast, then we can have the courage to grow and change at work, and doing things new ways, problem solving, collaborating, where we've got different opinions coming together, we can realize this feels really uncomfortable right now. But as we persevere, we're gonna get through it, we're gonna come through to the solution. And drawing models that process, that life process. So these workshops are powerful in helping businesses unlock their creativity, for all of the applications within business. Because yeah, you're right, it's like, I think, in COVID, sort of presented so many opportunities for looking at doing things in different ways. And unless somebody feels as though they've got the confidence to think differently, or think like that, but they won't, I think, and then if you, like you said, you open up one tiny little bit of creativity, where they can physically see that they are capable. And then you must just see them thrive, they must just go, oh, my gosh, what else am I capable of, you know, and it gives them that confidence, to share their ideas and to look at things in different ways and challenge things. Yeah. And once you've got those neural pathways in your head, if you struggle through the awkward learning phase, the learning phase of anything feels like trying to write with your with the wrong hand. If you've ever broken an arm and had to write with your other hand, it feels terrible. Yeah, yeah. If you've never done it, try it. It's awful. That feeling is like, that's what learning anything feels like, but you get through it. And then those neural pathways are available for different skills. And that's where it gets really exciting. Yeah, yeah. It's like, just because it worked for one thing, then your brain can connect it to, to sort of reach other outcomes that possibly weren't able to be accessed before. Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. That's, like very clever to be able to recognize that you could put those two things together and, and make something that's of such value. Because I feel like, at different times, you know, the government comes out with these different ideas that they're going to train the next generation of whatever. And these these jobs haven't been thought of yet, and, and stuff like that. But then you think, how do they actually do that? You know, doesn't make sense to me. But then you say something like this, that makes perfect sense. Like, you know, it's like, you're just you're discovering things that haven't, you haven't had the chance to discover before? Because your brain hasn't been like that. Yeah. And that process that you're talking about? Michael Gallup, who wrote a book called, how to think like Leonardo da Vinci, he says that creative endurance is the most distinctive trait of highly creative people. And it's that ability to push through it when it feels yuck. When it feels uncomfortable, unfamiliar, I'm stuck at this, I can't do it. And you realize this is just a phase. And you get some help you get some training, you do some practice, you persevere, and pretty soon, you've got a new skill. That's what people need that. I am creative. I can learn new things. If we give that to people, then yeah, we can problem solve, change careers. Do whatever. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that that is really cool. One of the things I like to talk to my moms about on this show is the concept of mum guilt. Do you sort of find or talk about yourself, but also want to talk about people that you work with? Is that something that sort of holds people back creatively mums, in particular, that they feel like when they've got to do something, when they've got to paint or they've got to create, it's at the expense of their children so they feel guilty about doing it? I think it can be there. I think we're experts at coming up with guilt over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living? Right? Have I done enough? Am I enough? And just recognizing that's part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason. Creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it. It's not even just internal, it's something outside of ourselves. And recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. I mean, the challenge is that our time is narrow, as moms, yeah, even when our kids are grown, you know, we're an important part of the family. And so often, the time we thought we'd set aside gets interrupted or changed or, but just knowing that when we think well, about creativity, when we think well about boundaries, when we think well, about being primarily responsible for ourselves, putting on our oxygen mask, before we help someone else, that's just a healthy way to live, then I think, I encourage the women that I work with, to make space for their creativity in three ways, some time, a place, and a process. And if you need to go to the dentist or the doctor, you make time you make an appointment, and understanding your creativity is healthy, it's healthy for you tell the kids to follow and watch the way that you're choosing to live. So making some time and last is going to look different, if you've got littles if you've got school aged kids, and you're working as well. But whatever it is, even if it's just five or 10 minutes, having a few sessions a week, in your diary, then your creative time, I worked with a businesswoman who was very time poor as a mum. And we built her a sketchbook that she could take on the train. Yeah, we built a plan, build a bunch of reference material and some training. So she could whip out a sketchbook and have a few minutes to draw on the train, whatever it looks like, if you can make some time learn a process, it's just gonna really help and to have a place to do it, her place was in a sketchbook on the train, which meant she had to have a little pencil bag that worked. And two, she could use without, you know, jabbing the person next to her. But if you you might have some space in your house, it might not be a whole room. But it might be a container with your art supplies. So you can just pull it out on the table and get started, whatever is gonna work for the life stage that you're in. It might be really, really simple. Yeah. And I think that's a really important point. Because I think it can be daunting for anyone, when they decide they're going to take up a new a new art or new craft or return to it, where it's like, oh, but I need all this space, or I need all this time, I need to have a room for it. And, you know, that can be really overwhelming and a real barrier. But like you're saying, it's about thinking maybe thinking outside of that, that box that you've you've put that into thinking outside of that and saying, you know, I love that example, you know, doing it on the train on the commute? Like, I've never thought of that. I mean, I don't have that in my life. So that's not something I ever thought of. But yeah, that's just it's so refreshing to think like that, that it's not limiting. And it's not. It doesn't have to be the way that you might have thought it had to be. That's right. And when you take stock of how much time do I really have? Am I a morning person or a night person? Where are those little pockets and being realistic about how big they are? I call that loving your limits? Yeah, right, and recognizing what they are because actually, I think it can really help you focus if your limit if you have a time and space limit that might influence the medium that you choose, you might stick to drawing, or you might choose watercolor over oils. And if you're really limited space wise that might affect the size that you choose to work. So as you're loving your limits and working it out, you're finding focus and finding your style finding your way I know an artist who paints gorgeous portraits, but she will just do the eye sometimes, and she'll paint it on a silver spoon. Oh wow. Or in a little teeny weeny box beautiful little box flip open the lid and put a tiny little scene inside. Oh, really mind blowingly creative stuff. So sometimes loving your limits can help you find a way that's really unique. Yeah I've had to say that's incredibly unique, isn't it? And then that I guess that you use that as part of your business that you have got this uniqueness. And you and you build on that. Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I think it's a lot of it's about, you know, changing, long held beliefs about what it means to be an artist or be a creative. Right, right, from the very basic of, like you said, finding out what you actually enjoy. Like, I'm a singer, and there's no way that I would go through, like you said, sing all these different styles when I know, the style that I love, and what I like to sing or write about, you know, if someone said to me, you know, write, write about whatever I'd go, well, that's, that doesn't resonate with me. And I guess it's the same with your painting. It's in the medium that you want to work with. And also this, like you said, the thing you're interested in painting? Yes, that's gonna change so much for everybody's No, it really is. And I think when we start there, what do I like? What am I like, as well? Where do I live? What's my personality? What drives me crazy? What colors do I love? What colors do I hate? That when you just look at yourself, you know yourself pretty well. Even if you haven't been paying attention, if you stop paying attention, you know yourself, you're standing there instead of what's the right way to do this. Because our fear and insecurity can make us want to learn right so that other people won't see that we don't know what we're doing. If we can get out of that mode and get into who am i What do I like? That's a much more helpful pathway, I think. Yeah, and I think too, social media is really good at showing us the best of everybody, you know, like, it's a very curated environment where people aren't going to show you the painting that that they painted over because they didn't like it. You know, you you're comparing your starting point to someone else's finishing point. And that can be really daunting as well. It really can. Yeah, and I think that whatever that opposition is to creativity, the criticizing voices that come up, it can be quite surprising. And just recognizing that's part of it. And I tell people collect as many affirmations as you can, you're going to need them. Telling yourself those kind things that yeah, don't don't compare the end of their story with the beginning of your story. And everybody's got out. They're not showing you. Yeah, that's an important thing to remember, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Do you just don't affirmations is one of my favorite ones. There's a friend of mine, who's a watercolor artist. And I did a course with her and her thing was art has no rules. And she put that on her. Like the packaging that the the box with all the art supplies in Julia reader, if you're listening, thank you. So I've got that has no rules on my little backboard where I paint, because that was my biggest thing. Like I've never been a painter, because I didn't know how to do it. And I thought that you had to know how to do something. Right before you could do it. Like I didn't do it in high school. I've never really done much with it. But the more I spoke to moms, on this podcast, I realized that art can be absolutely anything and done in any way. And that was my, just my lack of understanding and my own insecurities holding me back. So now I just love fluffing around painting. It's just so enjoyable. And it's another thing that I've added into my sort of creative, like care taking care of myself. It's been amazing. Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it to just have those things that are holding us back knocked out of the way and it can be such a self healing thing. My second daughter is on the autism spectrum and has a truckload of health challenges. And it was very stressful, particularly when she was younger. And just being able to go somewhere and go into another space and paint for a while was such a healing thing. And that the whole thing about art not having rules, there isn't one right way to do it. I would add to that to that. If if you find the style, the look the kind of art that you like, and you borrow into learning how to make that kind of art, you might find that there are actually some rules or principles that help you. Yeah, which is the flip side of the freedom and there isn't one way to do it. There aren't rules you can it can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah, if you're drawn towards detail and realism and beauty. That's okay, too. That's a wonderful thing. And there are a whole lot of wisdom learning training rules if you like That kind of sift that journey that cannot limit your creativity but actually give Yes. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like that if you want to do it a particular way, there's going to be some skills that are going to be really useful for you to be able to produce what you want to produce, I suppose. Yeah, so yeah, that's thing, isn't it. And I feel like that with music too. Like, there's so many. This, you know, a billion ways you could write a song and, and it's so freeing to see people do do things. But then within that, there's still you know, the notes on the scale, they never changed. You know, those basic things about rhythm and things like that. So you've got that sort of guideline within it. But then within that you can do whatever you want. I suppose I said, diving into it, knowing the style of music you like, learning from masters within that particular style or genre of music. When they give you a tip, try it like this, or there's this kind of pattern, or, you know, if you jump off from here, or use this kind of key for this kind of, it's so exciting, isn't it to get those tools from someone, you just think oh, my goodness, you can do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Exciting. You're listening to the art of being a man podcast with Alison Newman. So just coming back to mum guilt, your own personal sort of thoughts on that? Well, for me, it probably one area like it really came up was around, not knowing what I was dealing with, with my daughter Mikayla and her health challenges I knew before I brought her home from hospital, something was going on. I called the doctors in mentioned a couple of things, and they couldn't tell me what it was. So we did a round of specialists for a long time, and they couldn't tell me anything that just take a home lover, she'll be fine. And I knew there was more to it than that. And it wasn't until she was eight, that my mom who knew this journey I was on of trying to figure out what's going on with this kid because it's we're not. This is not just normal childhood milestones. Something's happening here. Yeah. And I can't figure it out. And she she went back to teaching and she asked a fellow teacher, I know this kid, these are those symptoms are what, what, what does it sound like to you. And that was the first time we heard about autism or Asperger's Syndrome. So I started reading, did my thing, borrow books from the library, like I'd done laying to paint. And I just sat there reading the Oasis guide to autism and Asperger's in my room, and the tears just started running down my face, because I realized this is my kid, somebody has just described to me what's going on in the inside. And I had no idea. And I could just see all the things I could have done differently, or the things I've been doing wrong. And just realize what this kid had been dealing with. I was clueless about. I knew something but it didn't know what it was. And it was both, you know, you feel the guilt that why didn't I figure it out before? Or, but I could have helped. And what can you do? You can't do anything but go on and be grateful that now you know, and do the best you can to love and measure can not as you can't Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think as moms we're really good at beating ourselves up over things that we could do absolutely nothing about things that are out of our control. Yeah, we've got to sort of make make it feel good for everybody. And then when it doesn't, it's it's our fault, even if it's not our fault. Yeah, and then when we do blow it plenty of times you know, we get snapping get your into ball, we get bossy we get whatever unfair. And I think just being honest with our kids, especially as they get older and just being able to say I'm sorry, I was really cranky. Or I'm sorry that really wasn't fair. I think that just goes a long way to because the fact is we're never gonna be perfect anything's we're here. We're humans. Yes, we're honest. We can we're fatally flawed. So then going to another topic I'd love to talk about is the concept of identity about how the concept of your own identity changed. When you did become a mum, did you go through sort of a shift? I mean, I know you were in a really different place in the world, like do you graphically in a different sort of area, but yeah, how did you sort of? How did you feel about that whole process of that change? I really wanted to be a mum, I was really keen to be a mum, I, I'd been married nearly four years when my first daughter arrived. And my whole life was so extremely different. We moved into this mud village when I was eight months pregnant. So oh, you know, I was not just adjusting to motherhood, I was adjusting to a completely different existence, different language, different everything. So it and because that happened for me young, because I went overseas when I did I met Mike when I did. When he thought I was 24. I thought he was 24. Turns out, there's a 10 year age gap. I ended up being a teenage bride and uh, you know, people, mother, yes. But when we came back to Australia, and I had the two girls and then homeschooling them for a while, I felt like it was really, in my late later 20s and 30s that I started to figure out. So who am I? I can my wife and I'm a mom, and I've, you know, been overseas and done these things. But what am I really like? Yeah, because I'm married to a young and went overseas into an extreme situation. So Young, I didn't even really have those late teens 20s of figuring out who you are, as an adult being a single person, I was already making a life with another person, which was hugely transformative as it is when two opposites try and make a life together. But yeah, I think that discovering who I am, came later. And that's one of the things I love about getting older, I'll be 50 this year. And I love that I don't love the fact that my body is changing, my skin's getting all my hairs. But I do, I do love the internal change of just being so much more confident in who I am having had more life experiences and knowing I just know myself better. I know, my strengths and my weaknesses, and some of those weird limiting messages. I've learned other things that are true that have helped. So I like that side of identity as you get older of just knowing yourself better. And I think it's just always changing. You know, I knew I wanted to learn to paint. I thought teaching was the way to build more of a painting life. And it's reminded me that actually, I'm a teacher at heart. And I love that as much or more than the creative process itself. So for me helping artists step into their full art life, their career as an artist entrepreneur, that is so fulfilling for me that I'm willing to put limits on my own painting to pursue that journey, because I can't do everything I'd love to be and do everything. But there's not enough hours in the day are there? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? But I think what you said there about enjoying getting older and coming to these realizations, I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to. It's something I certainly can relate to, like I'm about to be probably 44 later this year. And you know, the best times mentally, you know, you go through this, all these things as a youngster about all this doubt. And what do people think of me and all this judgment, and you get to a point in your life where you just go, ah, none of that matters, who gives a toss, you know, and I joked with a guest recently, like, everyone should think like a 40 year old woman because you, you just you don't care anymore. You know, you've got the things in your life that are important, the things that matter, you've worked out yourself. And you're like, No, everything else can just go by the wayside. So it's incredibly liberating time of life. And I think you get over the shock of, oh my gosh, like, I thought, I thought youth would last longer. This aging thing that used to happen to other people, it's happening to me, there's kind of grief about that, or at least there was for me, and getting over that and realizing ah, actually, the opportunity in the next stage of my life is actually even richer because my baby making user behind me even much I mean for me I started young so yay, I've got adults now not nobody's in school anymore. And I'm, I'm free to move on to enjoying all those things I've learned about myself now in a different way in this part of my life, and I really like that. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to you talking about like grieving changes. When I had to get glasses. It was like, when I finally said I have to get glasses it was just like this. No getting like this. The worst thing in the world that could possibly happen to anybody. You know. It's so self referred. Isn't it? passes on in the store. I was is my first year of classes to literally the tears welled up in my eyes because I look like an old lady to myself. Yeah, yeah, because that's the thing, we have these concepts of what it means to be old and get old. And for me glasses was one of those things. So then when I, when I got my glasses, and I put them on, and I actually they look nice, like, they don't look like my grandmother's glasses, you know, they were never going to, you know, but that's what I had in my head. And then I first time I wore them to work, I was really nervous that because I hadn't worked with children for nine years in childcare, and I was thinking all the kids are going to be trying to pull them off, and there'll be like, making a big deal. And I wore them for probably 20 minutes before any of the children said anything I could tell they were looking, but one of them come up, they said, our you've got glasses on. And I was like, Yeah, I do. And that was it. You know, so my own, you know, worries about how they'd be received. You was nothing to worry about, you know, we build all this stuff, we build these stories in our minds of what's gonna happen in life. Well, I do certainly mean that it doesn't come true. And instead of going, Oh, well, that was nice. I don't have to worry so much anymore. We're finding things that we oh gosh, yeah. I put that down a lot of it to being a Cancerian I think YTD for about everything. You talked about that your your art take second place to your other sort of work that you're doing. But that is still your creative work, isn't it like it's not as though your own, the physical act of creating might not be there as much, but what you've created and what you're sharing is a massive part of it. That's really important to you, isn't it to be really important to me? Yes, yeah. And I actually love the whole creative process of crafting a message, and learning how to communicate that through social media, through my website, through an email list. Communicating and cultivating that audience, I run a Facebook group for artists called the confident artist. And so helping that community in their creativity, and then stepping into sharing their art with the world, designing the training materials, you know, and the graphics and all of that, that whole process of that teaching process of taking knowledge and experience and questions, and just shared experience. And communicating that with others. That's a really important creative process for me. And part of drawing and painting is that decision, fatigue is a big part, we're making so many decisions about the work all the way along, whether it's designing the idea in the first place, how we're going to compose the composition, how we're going to mix the colors, how we're going to actually create those clouds, or render those leaves, what painting needs next, which particular method I'm going to use to solve that particular problem, it can leave you mentally drained. So in a season, I've just learned I have to have seasons. And if, if I'm in a season of making a body of work, it may not be the same season where I can be really promoting a coaching program like the profitable artist. And that's a hard and costly choice. But sometimes that just has to happen, you have to mind using my creativity in this area. So it might not like I tell my students that really you need about a 5050 balance between making your creative work and marketing your creative work. And that can feel shocking in the beginning. But it also doesn't mean that you divide up every day, with a 5050, half to each, you have to find your own rhythm, it might work for you to make in the morning, market in the afternoon. But it might also mean that you have a week where you paint, and then you have a week where you do the business side of things. It just depends on what works better for you. And you might find it works different in different seasons. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because you can sometimes get on a real roll. We all the ideas are coming. And you don't want to sort of have to put a timer on that and say, Oh, no, no, can't do that. Now, you can let that come and let that happen. Because then there's always times when you're not feeling like that. So that's the time is when you can do the practical work and, you know, that other side of things. That's, that's really important too. So yeah, I mean, that's the thing. We things always ebb and flow, don't they? No one can be everything all the time at the same level. You know, that's just it's just the nature of things, and especially being the nature of women to Kate Northrup. I wrote a book called, do less more, I think it's called. And in there, she talks about the fact that as women, we're on a 28 day cycle, whereas men are on a 24 hour cycle. And in some ways, we know all about that. But in other words, we don't know much about that. How often do we expect ourselves to be on a 24 hour work cycle. And we forget the fact that our energy ebbs and flows in really different ways that she's done a great job of mapping, the kinds of energy we have at different stages, in even if we're not actually cycling, like we were, when we were younger, even if you're at that life stage, you still have these rhythms of energy, rest, being more extroverted and more introverted. And that is a really helpful perspective, I think, to end to get to know yourself, when you're in that, wow, the ideas are just coming. Capture them go with it. And then when you're in that quiet, I'm just doing the work mode, I'm smashing it out. Or you're in the extroverted making connection space, or just that, who I need to refill the well. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And that's the thing, too, I think because, you know, as we're, there's different times in our life when we're so conscious of where we are in our cycle. And then there's other times in life where we just, it's not even on our radar. So and that's the thing to get back in touch with what, where we're at and what we feel at that time, and how that affects our creativity. And, yeah, I think that's a really important thing to think about. Because sometimes just sneaking away for power nap, is actually going to be more productive in the long run, than just trying to push through. Yeah, that's so important. I think there's this, there's been this massive, sort of focus on, I don't know what they call it like the, you've got to be productive all the time. You're smashing out things. And you've got the, I can't remember what they used to be this hashtag about? I don't know, you get where I'm coming from that hustle culture? Sort of Yeah. And you've just, it's almost like wrist was something that you'd give yourself as a reward, not as something that is part of just your, your regular life, I suppose. And, yeah, I feel like it's changing is definitely I mean, certainly the people that I follow, there's this idea that we, the old self care Sundays, that the hashtag still gets around, but it's a night, you can be mindful of that any time of the day. And like you said, if you feel like you need a nap, because that's going to make you more productive later, then do it, you know? And that comes down to judgment to be that, you know, how are you sleeping in the middle of the day? You know, aren't you supposed to be doing something, you know, all those little voices from a naive, maybe capitalist or a patriarchal sort of society come into our head and say, Yeah, what do you do in that for? Yeah, and not recognizing that creativity doesn't like to be on 24/7. And you've actually probably only got about four hours max, of that really intense work, new work, creative work in you. And if you do any more, in a day of that kind of work, you're probably going to be in creative debt the next day, so mixing it up with admin, housework, whatever, without breaking concentration, but just knowing your limits, learning to feel where you're at, is this the time to go with the flow, this is the time to say, Okay, that's enough. And also, brain science is fabulous in this recognizing there are different ways our brain works different aspects of our brain for different tasks. And when we stop, and go away and do something different, like take a walk, take a shower, take a nap, chop vegetables, back in your floor, your brain flips into this different zone. And when it's in that zone, it's almost like neutral. Yeah, what it does is it starts making connections between all of these completely different areas in your brain, ideas, thoughts, memories, experiences, and it starts making solutions that are completely unique. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Like I find, it's almost like I think did Einstein call it the theta state or the theta state? It's something to do with when your brains at rest. And it doesn't have to be actual meditation doesn't have to be laying down meditating. But it's like you're doing a repetitive or, I don't wanna say mindless because, but you're basically chopping vegetables when you said that. It's like you're doing a repetitive thing and your body goes into like muscle memory, and it just does it. Yeah. And then that gives your mind the time to, like you said, makes the connection and you're not conscious of it. It's not a thing that you're thinking, necessarily, but like the shower, going in the shower and walking are the two biggest times I get ideas. It's like you're just open and stuff just comes in and it's just amazing. I quickly get out of the shower and just record things on my phone or exactly I need a whiteboard in the shower. But it's true, isn't it like you need you need the ebbs and flows and your body has to have time and your mind has to have time to process things and then get you ready for the next load of whatever you're doing. And as a mom, if you can embrace that, then that it just works, doesn't it because we spend a heck of a lot of time, and vegetables and cleaning things and driving and. And we need to exercise you know, just to keep ourselves together. And walking is such a great way to do that. Those things can be part of our life. And when we realize I'm not beating myself up while I'm doing those things about all the things I haven't done yet. I'm relaxing and recognizing this is a really powerful part of the rhythm. And if I'm open, I'm excited to see what floats into my head. Potentially while I'm chopping broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That is so awesome. So I, I do a lot of yoga. And it's that the best stuff is like you do all your asanas and do all the movement, do some breathing. And then you have a nice meditation and you have a heavy Shavasana. And it's like, okay, what can you give me now like, you know, you're so open, and you're so relaxed, and your body's in that, that state, and then you can just you just get the best ideas, but I do anyway, I just love it. I'm not a yoga practitioner at all. But I do like silent meditation before the just what I should say, I don't necessarily love the doing of it. But I love the effect of it and learning that just even 10 minutes of silence just ignoring the chatter that my mind comes up with. Actively just letting it go that Yeah, yeah, it does put you in an amazing place to think clearly and be more energized, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. I'd always get up from my shavasana and my yoga teacher, she'd be like, Okay, what if he got first this time, like, because it was become this joke that I just be like, Oh, guess what, I just thought of what some I just came up with like, it was just, yeah, I'll just. If there are people in your audience who are wanting to learn to draw paint, dive into that part of their creativity, then come Come find me, the confident artists Facebook group, there's a lot of people in there who are enjoying their creativity together at all different levels. And I have a blog on my website that's got some really helpful tools and tips for enjoying your creativity, learning to draw and paint. And if you already painting and drawing and you're thinking, Can I do this? Could I really make money doing something I love? How do I even start selling art, then head to my website, Fiona valentine.com, I've got a free guide on how to start selling your art that talks about how to get clarity, and how this works, how to think about your pricing. And there's a lot of other resources there on my website, you can find out about the coaching program, the profitable artist method. And if you've got questions, just let me know, there's a button where you can hop on a free call, and we can talk about your creative journey and how you can get some support are fantastic. Yep. So I was gonna ask you, what's the best way to go ahead and get in touch but you've just answered that for me beautifully. Thank you. And also on your website, you've got some information on Oh, yes, innovation workshop. You'll see that in the tabs on my website, there's a tab for business school that talks about the profitable artists method. And it's another tab that says the art of innovation workshop. And that's where companies or you know, collection of people who want to get together and do a two hour online zoom workshop to learn how to draw so that you can boost your creative potential. And you can use it like an exercise taking your brain to the gym. So yeah, you'll find all that information there too. Thank you so much for coming on today. I've really enjoyed talking with you is raised some points that I've sort of lost along the way somewhere, you know, especially that that you know, keeping in touch with your emotions and your cycle and that kind of stuff. So yeah, really valuable to have you here and thank you so much for giving me your time today. Thank you so fun to talk with you and your music is beautiful, Allison. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Oh, do you have to keep an ear out for the next year when which will hopefully be the end of the it's been a slow process, but I don't mind that. It just happens when it happens and amongst everybody else. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Luke Balkin Australian electronic dance musician and producer S1 Ep09 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts To mark Father's Day here in the Southern Hemisphere I share 3 special episodes where I chat to 3 creative dads to get their take on things, how they continue to make music while being hands on dads. In this episode I chat to electronic musician, and producer Luke Balkin from Casterton VIC, Luke is a dad of two, we chat about balancing creating music with running a farm and being a dad, the importance of supporting independent artists, and how he incorporates his children into his music. Luke's stage name is LT Balkin. Connect with Luke here - https://www.instagram.com/l t balkin_music/ Watch Luke's DJ B*tch video here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFsv0zo8BJY Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Luke's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Oh, come along, like thanks so much for being part of this special episode. No worries. Thanks for having me, Allison, of how to listen to a couple of the podcasts so far. And it's sounding really good. So yeah, it's great to be a part of this. Oh, great. Thank you. All right. So for those people who aren't familiar with your music, and what you've been up to Jordan, give us a rundown of how you got into music. What was the style is and what you what you're up to at the moment as well. Yeah, for sure. So I got into electronic music, being a DJ. And I also studied audio engineering at SAE in, in Melbourne. So I was, you know, recording bands and stuff like that in Melbourne. And then also DJing on the side. And, and when I sort of, at the end of my finishing up doing DJing I just wanted to sort of make music and, and at that sort of stage, I sort of got into the electronic music field. And, and yeah, started sort of producing tracks and making music and just my own sort of own sort of style sort of thing. So yeah, that's how it all sort of started out. I was I started out as a punk DJ, like I was at nightclubs in Melbourne, playing playing punk rock music, and, and, yeah, I used to record bands and stuff and do sound engineering for a fair few bands on the circuit as well. So when I do, you know, between their sets, I used to DJ at the clubs, and then they come on afterwards and mix them while up on stage playing. And that's, you know, that's my early roots has always been punk rock. So, you know, I grew up listening to that, you know, no effects and, and all those sort of punk punk bands, the early sort of Green Day stuff, and living and and all that. And that was the scene I grew up in. And, yeah, that's sort of sort of how my music career sort of started out really, it was, like come from, I've never been really musical as such, but I've always had a fairly good ear for music. So it was more to do with audio engineering and stuff like that. So yeah, but when I first started out as an audio engineer, it was a long time ago. And, um, we were, you know, Pro Tools just sort of started the digital era was just coming out. Well, I was, I was back when it was, we were recording off of like tape and stuff like that will cut in bits and pieces. So it was a long time ago. And then we're just sort of forming into that digital era. So yeah, it was a it was good time. And that's Yeah, so my early, early parts are all punk rock. That's, you know, that's where I sort of started the whole music sort of thing with me. So when you say, pre electronic sort of equipment, does that mean you were DJing? With proper records? And that kind of stuff? Back in the day? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. That's, that's how, you know, we, as as DJs, when I started with like, with the punk rock stuff, it was all on CD and stuff, it had nothing really to do with, with mixing as such, you're just dropping the music after the song had finished. So you just had to have a really good ear to what would come on after that track was all it was really just whatever you wanted to play. But then when I that's what sort of got me into electronic music was that it all had to do with like BPM and actually mixing the song and actually making songs really mash together really well without sort of, you know, missing a beat. That's what you couldn't do that with punk rock music, you know, you're just playing songs after songs and just trying to keep the crowd entertained. As much as you want to do that with electronic music, you've got to be a good mixer. And starting off, too, with turntables, like I had a, like a reasonable time on turntables. But I wouldn't say that my main DJ was with turntables that was sort of like, turned over onto that the CD sort of format, and we were sort of mixing off of CDs and CD decks, the early early CD decks and stuff like that, but we were, you know, you had to be a but you had to be a good DJ, to, to be able to get by back then. And these days, you don't have to do anything. You can just push a button and it'll sync everything up for you and you know, and the kids love it. So it's a lot it's a lot different. It's a lot different these days. So, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people now just press play, and especially the young kids doing it now, they don't seem to be actually mixing live as they're going, Oh, it's 100% I, you know, my club times in, in Adelaide, you know, I sort of that's where I sort of finish my, my DJing careers was I had a, a, like, a residency at the casino, where we go and play there, you know, every, every Wednesday night, and it was, it was really good vibe, and everything like that, but we used to go out a lot. And afterwards, and that and two other clubs, and you go there, and you just go up and have a look and see what they're doing. And you would see people pushing play on like, a mix on on, you know, like a Spotify mix or something like that. And that was what they were doing. And I'm like, what, like, what are you doing? Are you actually doing anything up here or, you know, and a lot of did it lost its vibe, because the people they actually don't really know how to mix at all, they just have got a sink on their, on their mixer. And, and it pretty much well, you know, everything comes together and you get you can't get by if you go to a club, and you sit back and you listen to music. And you either know if it's a shit DJ are really good DJ. And that's, that's these days, you can go out and you put it to work and you'll you'll know straight away if it's good, it's good. It's a real skill then to as a DJ to read your audience to get those people back on the dance floor. You got to know your stuff. Yeah, that's 100% Like, yeah, definitely, if a DJ doesn't know what he's playing, or, you know, gets up there and, and hasn't got the right tools or, or know how to work the decks or anything like that they can fail just so easily. So yeah, it's just it takes it takes a big skill to, to do it. And yeah, a lot of guys out there are good at it are really good at it. And you don't actually see, or I don't know that many DJs that are right into producing though either though, like most of them are just you know, they just do their weekend DJs and stuff like that. So DJ gigs, so you know, you know the music you're making now, you're doing that all from your house, and you're working with people all around the world, which is really exciting. Yeah, 100% the music I make now is basically a collection of music that I made probably around about 2016 and I'm still making music now. I just a lot of the stuff that I made, I put a lot of time and effort into it. So I seem to like go back and revisit a lot of the older stuff that I made. And just keep working on on that. Yeah, so now i i Just jump online I've got a master over in America that I used and he's put me in touch with a fair few people to collaborate with singers that Charlotte lock who's from the UK and, and a fair few other artists that I that I just work with. And just you mainly for vocals. Yeah. And it's just really fun. It's just fun to sort of have a bit of a hobby and a passion for music and still be able to, you know, put something out there at the end of the day and have a bit of fun with it. So yeah, that's my sort of main thing is just as long as you're having fun with music, that's the main thing for me. Absolutely. You've got a young family. Tell us about your your children over there in Victoria. So I've got a young boy named Fletcher. He is coming up to three years old. And I've got a little girl Lexi and she's around one and a half. Alexis she is so yeah, we give her we just call it Alexei. So she loves that. So yeah. keeping you busy at that age, the two of them run around. Yeah, they sure they sure. Are they sure are they they they cause plenty of headaches but they are both really good kids and yeah, we love them to death. Yeah, so how do you go then finding time to to get stuck into your music and create when you've got little people? Do you sort of try and do it at night or weekends? How do you make it work? This is basically my time now it's like minute they're the kids go to bed at sort of, you know, seven o'clock, eight o'clock as I come up here I've got my own sort of studio up in what I call the school house. It's like an old converted school house just got like a bed for friends to stay in and it's just got all my computer equipment and stuff like that up here. So I just wanted to come up here and do my thing. You know, it's it definitely has been challenging, I must admit like coming from, you know, just having a part Under and being able to do music and that whenever you want to, to to, then only do it at night time, you've got to try and really, you know, focus and yeah, try and make the time that you've got, you know, make it work. Yeah, yeah, make the most of those limited little slots with the hours. So you also work you also run a farm, I believe. So you're, you're pretty much burning the candle at both ends. Really? Yeah, yeah. So we've got a three and a half 1000 acre farm over here in Casselton. And me and my dad work here on the farm. And we've got like, roughly set like around about 350 head of cattle, and so maybe closer to 400. And, and two and a half 1000 sheep here on our farm, so So it's extremely busy here, during the weekdays plus, up in New South Wales, our my brother, my older brother, he has his farm up there, which is around about 13,000 acres. So we used to split our time a lot in between the properties and work both sides of it. But now we tend to sort of stay one end and the other end of my dad sort of floats in between the property. So yeah, we were pretty flat out over here all the time. So, yeah, absolutely. And we'd be challenging then to try and, you know, with the kids, you wouldn't actually be able to sort of float between the two properties that easily when you've got your Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 100% it's made it made a lot different. Now having that having a family and stuff like that, it just changes things a lot. You know, so but, you know, that's just the part of having a family I guess you've got to make, you know, you've got to make changes yourself as well. So clincher is actually in one of your music videos recently. So I do, I do a lot of my own music videos, and I've been doing video for a long time, probably just as long as I've been doing music. So that's one thing I've sort of thought about doing is like, just just do it, just make the video yourself have a bit of fun with it and make it yourself. And they they just love it. They they love being a part of anything. And then when you go back like, you know, if you put if you put TV on and YouTube or tractors on, then you know he gets really grumpy. So that so when he gets on YouTube, and then he sees himself on there, he thinks that's the best thing in the world. Like he thinks it's the funniest thing ever. And he will watch it repetitively all day and Lexi, well, she just loves it, so she can't get enough of watching him or mommy on there. So they love it. So the I'm going to try and incorporate that the kids into as many of the music videos as I can and just have a bit of fun with it. Like I was thinking about sort of getting something you know, professionally done up and I'm just like, what, what's the hell, you know, like, just just have a bit of fun with it and do it yourself. It always like always think that if you have a crack at it yourself and it comes out real raw, it sometimes makes it give a more feel to it, then then something that's over produced or anything like that, like you know, you'll give your fuel footage to somebody else Now rub their hands all over it and, and make it glossy and everything but it doesn't seem as raw as as sometimes. stuff. So, yeah, we just had had a lot of fun making the video for DJ bitch. And yeah, we filmed it on our property. And yeah, we always had this idea to do it. But it was just really an idea. And let's let's just do it. And we had this footage. And it was it had just been sitting there and I said the laser I said we've got to finish it with like half it was shot. And I just sort of started putting it together and it just sort of slotted in really well. And yeah, before too long, I think, you know, the film clip I think was up to about 6000 views at last I looked it was it was quite a shock actually, but it's a good fun. It's a good fun video clip. So, you know, it was just a bit of fun and the kids love it and like I said they just can't get enough of watching themselves so it's really good. It is a great video and yeah, I didn't realize that you made that yourself. Congratulations because that is awesome. Yeah, no, I do all the all the video on myself and then I get back to the computer here and and produce it all myself. So yeah, it's just fun. Yeah. So you used to drown in that video is that you do that yourself as well. Yeah, I got my I got my own drone. And so the drone shoots in full 1080 Hey, He HD and I use the GoPro as well to get mosiello shots on the film clip because pretty much a GoPros these days, I just got some of the best, you know, the best pixels as well they just come out amazing clear and you can just sort of go through and edit up your videos afterwards. So yeah, drone stuff. I've had a drone for a number of years now and yeah, I love love flying them and just yeah really fun you kids obviously know that you do your music is that it's something that you you love sharing with the kids, it's important for you to involve them in, in what you're doing. Yeah, for sure my kids really love music. We got a thing at our house that we just love to put on music, like around tea time, or Saturday mornings and stuff like that, it's always music going on at our place. And we just yeah, we just try and involve them as much as we can, you know, whether it's listening to my music or, or listening to other people's music, and they love it, they love dancing, and they just love being kids and, and as adults mainly so we both love it as well. So yeah, that just we just make sure that they've got heaps vert arounds. And you know, they're not too scared to have a bit of fun and dance around the living room. Here in my studio, I've actually got a toy toy room here for Wednesday. So, like on a Saturday, if I'm, if I want to do music or anything like that, I bring the kids up here with me, and they've got their own toy room, and they'll, they'll play toys up here and, you know, push around the boats and the cars and stuff while I'm up here, you know, playing on the computer. So yeah, it's a really sort of fun environment for him. And we don't I definitely don't just run away from the whole family to go and do music. It's just, it's just here, you know, Dad's up here at the schoolhouse, and the kids will come up here and, and you know, they'll ride their bikes around in here and have a bit of fun as well. So yeah, definitely they're very much included Can you see do you find now have with the kids in your life, that the way that you write your music has changed at all yet, like the like you see the world a bit differently? Maybe anything like that? Yeah, 100% I'd say. Because my music is, you know, electronic and different. I'm just sort of really trying to create a vibe, as much for like the, the kids and stuff, it definitely hasn't really changed my sort of style as much. Yeah, the only thing that that really has changed is that just not being able to have that flexibility time to you know, just just go and you will just have more time without having the kids and stuff like that you would just end up having a lot more time up yet up your sleeve to sit down and really concentrate on something, and you just win now doing music, you sorta have got to be in the right mindset, or else you just don't get it down. And if you're not, if it just doesn't flow, it, you're wasting your time. So yeah, I will, I'll come up and play around with tracks like that. And it's just not working. It's just definitely it's not working. So you just stop and you'll come back another time, but it's it having children and music, you just got to really make time for your passion, I think. And yes, to having having children and stuff like that. It's, it's yeah, it's a great thing. And it's been awesome, but there's definitely challenges involved. And I think if I had children a lot, like, like, I'm I'm 40 Now, if I had them when I was younger, I don't think I would have coped as well that's one thing I don't really want. I'm glad I had children when I was older. I'm pretty like I think I'm very selfish myself sometimes like not now, but I was would have been when I was younger, a lot more selfish er and wanted to sort of achieve more. Now I've got that mindset that I've just don't don't really care anymore. Like I just want to have fun. So but um, but now, you know being a bit older and stuff like that. I'm just a lot more chilled and just don't really care. And just like I said, I think for myself if I just have music as a as a passion and a hobby. It breaks down those walls. It's just like, you know, if you achieve something, it's great, but you're not really focused on, you've got it, oh, I've got to make the charts or I've got to sell music or anything like that. If people want to listen to it, that's fantastic. And it's awesome. And if you wanted to get shows, that's great. But if you really focused on that, and it doesn't happen, it just breaks your heart all the time. And you just end up burying yourself, I think you just want to, I just want to put stuff out there that I'm really proud of. And, you know, when I released my last album, I had had a lot of messages of people saying, Oh, my God, that song was just amazing, or that was so great. And that's what it comes down to. For me, it's like, just those moments where people say to that, so I think it's really big. Shout out to people that, you know, tell that artists that you really liked their music, it makes a difference to people like it makes people be more productive. And they want to actually, you know, they want to keep pursuing their dreams. And I think today's age to like, with artists, where where artists and musicians and everything has gone through the whole COVID thing. You know, they need you more than ever right now. People really need to stand up and say, hey, you know what, I'm gonna buy that CD. I love that tune. Keep doing what you're doing. And you know, stay positive, because it only takes one person to say oh, you know your musics crap. And you know, you suck, all of a sudden, that person just shuts down and then they don't want to do it anymore. So you know, as long as you know, since I've been doing music, I haven't even had one person say you, you suck or your shit. It's just like, everything in the music scene I think is so positive. But we're just going through such a short time with COVID that no guy out there's work and the poor old industry, music is industry is suffering. The venue's are dying up. They need you more than ever, right now. People, people like myself, anyone out there who's putting music together still is they need you. So, you know, the people out there listening and buying records, you know, they're awesome. That's what we, we do it for. So, you know, yeah. That's so well said. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think big Yeah, because we can't say, the audience face to face because we can't make those, you know, personal connections, it is important for people, if, you know, if you like someone's music, send them a message. And, you know, it's just that little, that little bit of connection. It's just enough to brighten someone up and and keep them go. And like you said, it's, it's that spark that gets them going. So, yeah. And it's nothing is it so it's not, I like appreciate so many different styles of music, like I listened to, you know, so much different styles. And even if it's not the general the genre that you listen to, you know, just just let them know that that piece of music that was awesome, you did an awesome job on that, you know, your vocal was fantastic on that. Just just let them know. I think it's like, that's the most positive thing I think with the with the music scene, other artists get behind other artists, even if you got a small majority of fans out there and you know, I don't consider myself having many fans at all but the small group that have that I have around me that they definitely don't shy away with saying hey, that's that tunes. Awesome, great job that's a that's a sweet tune keep getting maybe keep doing that sort of style it's a love it so that's and that's what gives me a bit of momentum and stuff and just just to have a bit of fun with it too. So yeah, but it's definitely a struggle out there and if you know if someone was doing this job at the moment full time and and you know looking for those gigs every weekend I really feel for those people at the moment I you know, it breaks my heart to to see how the music industry is going to recover from this because I know a lot of artists I know that they're artists Charlotte lock the, the girl that featured on my album, she she ended up going back to work at a big company and I murder messaged not long ago and I said you know how's how's the music going? And she was like, there's no time you know, I've got to get back to work and there's no no gigs. So and she you know, I couldn't never think of this girl not seeing again because of voice is so amazing. And it just broke my heart to hear that. You know this girl can't get any more gigs and she's had to go back to the office and start working again and slaving away to the man you know. You mentioned briefly before Lacey your wife She must be very supportive of of what you're doing and helped me a lot. She's very supportive she that she loves that she loves being involved. She's, you know, probably my biggest fan I every track that I do or take part in in any small way. She's probably the first person who gets it is on that track. So I give it to her and, and she'll listen and I'll say, What do you think of this? And you know, what do you think of this? And she'll be like, oh, yeah, I love it. I love it. I love this bit. And so that yeah, gives we sort of feed off each other a lot. And, yeah, it's great to have somebody supportive that by your side, or that, you know, is prepared to sit up all night while you're at three o'clock in the morning, you know, bouncing ideas off somebody overseas about some track that's getting mastered at, you know, some ungodly hour or, you know, me waking up in the middle of night Khan Hawk got such a great idea for a video clip. So, she, yeah, she's really great and very supportive. And yeah, yeah, I love her a lot. Yeah, and she got got a little bit of a go in the video as well. The music video. Yeah, she was up there dancing with flat chi. And it was quite funny. She said, I'll go out with death, which I said yeah, get out there and have a dead so yeah, it was good. Mid so I loved the little little jacket that he had onto. Yeah, he's gonna wear that and all that all the film clips. We've decided he loves his he loves that jacket. He calls it his DJ check jacket. So he really thinks it's really cool. So yeah. What have you got on at the moment or anything coming up that you want to share? I've got one track that I'm working on at the moment. I've just, I've got another girl that's just doing some vocals for me for this track. It's, it's called creatures. When you've heard lately, it's like I really wanted to make something that was sort of like, really on that that preset vibe that really pumped up sort of idea. And just it didn't really have to mean anything. It was just sort of a like really pumped up track. Yeah, that's what I'm working on at the moment. So I just sort of had that mastered. But it's come back and I'm Why can't I just need something else to sort of give it a bit of an edge. So I thought I'll try it with a female vocals. I'm just waiting for those vocals to come back. And I'll put in the track. And yeah, see how that turns out. Let me lose a happy move. I don't know what to do. Everything about my situation is a win or lose. I know the feeling of people when they go donate bags. I made a choice to ignore my Molly, Jason bash, what is exactly when I listen to a couple of the podcasts before? And he the people what they were saying about you know, and you know that they have music and then that was on the back burner because they've got so much time. It's what happens. I think when you have a family, it's like so much gets put on the backburner though, doesn't it? It's like, it's incredible, that, you know, you've got all this, all this passion and all this art that you want to get out there and want to push out into the world. And all of a sudden, you can't because you're locked down with their, with your family and doing you're doing the stuff that's, that's, that's important to them. And then all of a sudden, you can't you can't get it out. And then it's sort of built up, it really is built up, especially if they're, if they're, if it's a person that's putting out stuff constantly, and has a family and all of a sudden that sort of just kind of it's it's hard it's just about expressing yourself, I think and as long as people can keep getting it out there. That's the main thing. And you know, I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids and you'd seem to be putting everything into the children I know from seeing it firsthand through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and and your wonder like now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more at nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about and she loves so we make time to fit her you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life things but it's that's the thing is it's like you know when When if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion and you've got nowhere to you know to do it it builds up and you know probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage or anything like that because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with your children and just having this dull life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you if it doesn't have you don't have an outlet much for coming on today. Like it's been great to chat and all the best with whatever you've got coming up soon. I can't wait to hear some new tracks for me. No worries. Thanks, Alison. I really appreciate coming on the podcast and yeah, I wish you all the success for it. It's sounds fantastic so far, and yeah, it was he could be keep going with it in the future and it keeps coming out and bringing positive messages with it.

Heather McClelland UK singer, songwriter, musician, composer and music educator S2 Ep40 Listen and subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest this week is Heather McClelland, a singer, songwriter, musician and music educator based in Sussex UK, and a mum of 1. Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a travelling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather’s first gig was the at an Irish Busking Festival at the age of 6. She has been writing songs since the age of 13. In her high school years, Heather sang backing vocals for her mother’s performances and was playing in bands. During her university years Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog Mcrea . After finishing school Heather went to Brazil for three years, studying music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid-twenties, she continued to perform Brazilian-influenced music (appearing at Festinho, The Royal Festival Hall and Favela Chic) as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix, Wah Wah 45's Stac, and Ninja Tune's Submotion Orchestra. As a soloist, Heather's debut EP China Mind was released in 2020 just before the pandemic hit. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer-songwriter and neo-classical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure-toned voice and her evocative harmonies Heather’s vocal group The Sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio, specialising in close 3 part harmonies. While busking, the trio were spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter Sir Terry Wogan and that lead to some amazing opportunities, including performing on BBC Radio 2 and at Royal Albert Hall. Heather has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital as lead Artist on the Vocal Beats programme, which she helped to create and develop. The project works with paediatric heart and lung patients from birth to 25 years, offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at Great Ormond Street Hospital for children. **This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. ** Heathers Website / youtube / spotify The Sugar Sisters VocalBeatsOnline Read about Royal Brompton Hospital VocalBeats project The vocal Beats Nursery Rhymes album Georgia Fields ' Find The MotherLode Heather's music is used throughout this episode with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch all music used on the podcast. He's done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to today's episode. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Heather McClelland Heather is a singer, songwriter, musician, and music educator based in Sussex in the UK, and a mom of one Heather grew up in a very musical family. Her family were a traveling band with West African and Irish influences, and Heather's first gig was at the age of six in an Irish busking festival. Heather has been writing songs since she was 13 years old, and in her high school years, she sang backing vocals for her mother's performances, who is a singer songwriter in her own right, and she was playing in bands. During her university years, Heather and her band toured Ireland supporting Mad Dog McCray. After finishing school, Heather went to Brazil for three years where she studied music and performing with some of Brazil's leading musicians. This trip cemented her decision to pursue her music as a full time career. On returning to the UK in her mid 20s, Heather continued to perform Brazilian influence music, as well as collaborating with other artists including champion beatboxer Bellatrix and Ninja tune to sub motion orchestra. As a soloist Heather's debut EP Chyna mind was released in 2020. It occupies the space between folk and electronica, singer songwriter and neoclassical. Her songs are ethereal and haunting, featuring her uniquely pure tone voice and evocative harmonies. Heather's vocal group the sugar Sisters is a 40s inspired trio specializing in close three part harmonies. While busking the trio was spotted by the producer of Irish radio presenter, Sir Terry Wogan, and that led to some amazing opportunities including performing on BBC Radio and at Royal Albert Hall, in addition to writing and performing him has many years experience in music education. She currently works at the Royal Brompton Hospital As lead artist on the vocal Bates program, which she helped to create and develop. This project works with pediatric heart and lung patients from birth to age 25 offering a diverse range of music, including lullaby singing, beatboxing classes, and singing for breathing sessions. Heather also works as a musician in residence at the Great Ormond Street Hospital for Children in London. This episode contains discussion around the loss of a parent and grief. carry with me, huge huge. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Heather. It's such a pleasure to have you today. Oh, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be speaking to. Especially across the waters like it's nice to be speaking to someone it's a totally different time as well. You're in your night and I'm in my morning. Yeah, and yeah, so what what we're about to lunch. Are you in London? Where are you willing to? No, I'm actually so I'm in Sussex we were I love them. My husband just walked in the door so probably downstairs might hear him talking to the neighbors outside currently. But anyway, so I live in Sussex now which is southeast. We spent I spent a lot of time living in London and yeah during like living in a flat in London with a child in lockdown was definitely like a good like push to leave. We've been wanting to do it for ages. But yeah, so I now by now I work in London a lot. Like I just live an hour from London, but it's very much in a beautiful village in Sussex. So kind of the best of both worlds. Yeah, nice because you can sort of escape that intense busyness and sweat. Yeah, for me. Definitely. And I go to London, like at least once a week, sometimes twice. So it's really Yeah, it's still totally a part of my life. But it's very much like it when I get back to the country. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Things You just reminded me of, I'm already going off topic. We went to London, it would have been 2005 everything before we had kids. And I just felt like, I didn't feel nervous at all. I just felt like I was at home because we watch a lot of English TV shows. Yeah, in Australia. And it was like, Oh, I just felt so relaxed. And like all the accents, I found myself starting to into, like, do people's accents, like he would say, Yeah, and it was just really fun. And it's so relaxing. And then so nicely think London's relaxing night. I mean, there's no doubt that it's often when I go overseas, I mean, I haven't been I've saved for a long time now. But we'd go to Asian countries, because they're close for us. And you just don't know what you're going to get. But obviously, the language barrier, the smells are different, like, the culture is slightly different. And I get really nervous. As soon as I get in the airport, you could always tell if there's a guard holding a gun, you're sort of like, yeah, it's a totally different vibe. Yeah, London was just like, Ah, this is, ya know, it's so great. It's so great. And it's so great. It is great when you have child children, like there was a lot of stuff to do. But it's such a great place to be pre kids as well. Like, I really enjoyed this period, like late 20s, early 30s, living in London and just go into parties and go to magazine party just doing really fun, you know, just having that live for a bit. It was great. And then you have kids and then you're like, God, it's quite an effort. With my child. I'm already going out. Yeah, the organization. It's just like, it's a whole like, lane for like, this whole. Yeah, so that has to happen. The other thing you reminded me when you talked about leaving an airway, there's a show we get over here called escape to the country, but and visions of people how they go, Oh, we just want to get out of this city. And oh, it's like, that is literally what England is like right now. I mean, there's so many people that are moving from London, especially like in this village. Everyone's just like, Oh, God, country, so yeah, it's so much that's why Yeah, I I'm gonna have to do some Googling when I get off and I'll have a look at some pictures of your what your little areas like? Yeah, like it's gorgeous. Yeah, totally. The other thing I love asking people about is their weather. What's your weather like at the moment? Um, yeah, it's pretty good. It's okay. It's just like, yeah, it's just gray skies. And I think it's very, you know, you can really feel by the beginning of March, you know, we're all just like, desperate for spring, it's been this kind of really intense winter, and it was really sunny the other day, and I was like, Oh, my God, like, hope you live like, there's that kind of vibe. And then, yeah, so I think it's like, although it is a bit gray, you also kind of know that it is hopefully, I mean, it's England, so it has snowed at Easter before, but do you hope that we're kind of coming out of there, like, sigh like back end of that kind of wintry vibe. And I think for us, it's really nice, because we've only been here like, we've been here just over a year. So we kind of saw, like, you know, the blossoms coming out and like sort of discovered it, but it was very much when we moved here, you know, we were still in a lockdown. And we also were kind of, you know, just figuring out the house and whatever, just basically very, very new to it. And now I'm quite excited about the fact that like, I know that the sun is coming and like just sort of discovering this area and watching like the blossoms come on the trees and stuff because that is quite special, isn't it when that starts happening after you know, because it's so I mean, as with most people, I definitely know I'm quite affected by the weather. And after you've had like really bleak winter, you're just a bit like oh my god another day and then suddenly the sun the sun shines and you're like, okay, yeah, okay, like life is good. Yeah. So yeah, it's quite great right now. It's fine. Yeah. drizzly with with a view to sun. Every time it's sunny, you felt like you have to do something. And then you're like, Yeah, it's fine. To do like, I can be sunny and like, we can also just be like, oh, yeah, we don't have to go on these massive trips. My husband was like, sunshine and we have to go on a walk and you know, so it's like, knowing that we're in a nice place now that we're gonna have hopefully a whole lifetime sun coming in. Yeah, you don't have to do it all at once. Yeah, exactly. I love that. You're a singer and songwriter and a musician. Can you tell us about how you got started? And the meat of it? Yeah, sure. It's so weird. I was thinking about this today because I was thinking it's like I do so many different things musically in terms of my life is like, it's yeah, there's there's a few like very different things that kind of obviously intertwine. But it's quite rare almost to like, talk to someone about all of them at the same time, do you not like because it's almost like you're kind of like, oh, this is me when I do music and hospital or this is my singer somewhere and stuff. Well, this is the vocal true, like, so you kind of have these quite different, like mindsets. And then you're like, oh, yeah, it's really nice to reflect on everything. So I basically, yeah, so I grew up in a musical family, but in a very alternative way. So like, I didn't have it wasn't like I had like four more lessons or anything when I was a child. I mean, I would have loved that. But like, I had kind of quite the opposite, like really alternative parents that just did music, like so I kind of just grew up around music. My dad was Irish. So I like had a lot of like, Irish music, which is actually I think that does feel quite important because in the Irish culture, it's just so like, natural and instinctive. So I kind of grew up a lot around, like all my, his family would always just be singing at gatherings like my granddad, even when he was like 95 would be like singing into into the early hours of microphone at party, you know, that kind of vibe. So, yeah, so I just grew up with that. And then, and then my first performance was when I was like, about about five in Ireland. So we're basically traveling around and a boss in Ireland. And I had my first ever performance was with my all my family, and my mom and my dad, and my brother and my sister have more since then. But at the time, it was just the three kids. And we were performing in a busking festival. So like, they basically had to like go round, you'd go and get kind of basket and then get chosen and be the finalists on the stage. So we got chosen to be the finalists on the stage. So I have this memory of being about five and like fighting over a microphone with my brother and sister because we're slightly different heights. And then we like sang. And I don't know, I mean, I think that the whole town came in my mind and my memory there like 1000s of people watching. I mean, I don't know, they're probably a couple of 100. I don't know, like, you know, so that was Yeah, so I guess that kind of it was always like, it's weird, because it was always very natural. But because of that I kind of it wasn't like a big thing that I saw. It was just like, oh, yeah, cool, like, and then your family broke up. Yeah, it's just what I did. And then my family broke up, my mom and dad broke up. And then my mom got together with an African musician and had a few children with him. So I grew up in with like, a lot of like, West African music around me. So then that was all like, we're kind of always traveling with that. And they were working doing a lot of music in schools. And, and performing. And then and when I was a teenager, my mom used to sing. And I used to basically sing like backing vocals for her. So it was quite a weird like, I was saying this the other day, I say this gig that is like, literally the moment where I was really embarrassed about my mom because you just go through that phase when you're a teenager right? Where you're like, oh my god, mom, like what are you saying? I was literally standing on stage with her at the same time as being like, totally, like singing her songs was like, oh my god, like so it's really interesting conflict. But yeah, but then I think I kind of Yeah, it was like not they did obviously, like, encouraged my singing, but it was weird because it was like, it was just quite a sort of like, it wasn't like I'd meet someone and they'd be like, in my family, they'll just like oh, yeah, cool. You sick rather than like, was kind of later in life when I would go and do stuff with other people that would be like, Oh, wow, like you can really sing. Whereas it was just kind of like just what people did. And then yeah, and then it was kind of when I went to uni that I started really like having my own bands and like started you know, I was always writing stuff since I was a teenager but then it was like when I started going to university I started performing with my own bands and then I went I spent a few years living in Brazil and doing music there and that was like for me that was a really nice again, it was very much like kind of culture that you know, it's very on British in the way that music is very much like everyone there and it was just you know, you have no no space to be like really shy and like oh, I don't I feel a bit self conscious about singing. It's just like you sick, sick. So it kind of so going into Brazil really helped me kind of with you know, overcoming any sort of shyness and also it was a really nice it was a period where I just met all these new people, and no one knew anything about me and It was the first time I'd kind of had these people that were like, Wow, you're a singer, and you've really got some income, we want to really support you. And I had a whole group of people that really sort of supported me to go and do recording. And like it was the first time almost that I kind of, I don't know, like, yeah, that was almost like an adult away from everyone. And someone knew nothing about me that just had me. So it was like, a really important chapter in my confidence, I think. And that's where I made a decision in Brazil, like, whatever happens, even if I have to, like bask on the street, like, I'm going to pursue a musical path. And yeah, and I have done that. I mean, it's been, obviously, as you will know, is a very up and down journey, but like I have pursued it, and then it's taken me to lots of like, different, you know, places and yeah, really exciting things. And yeah, like, we'll mix and stuff from where I don't see myself to him. Yeah, so then I did like a lot of stuff with my solo staff in Brazil. And then I came back and I and I've kind of carried on pursuing that. And then I also speaking of busking on the streets, like I kind of had a, a trio that, like, I have a couple of friends who are really, really incredible singers. And one summer we were like, oh, like we need some money over summer. Why don't we just go and Bosque and so we put together this, this trio called the sugar sisters, which is very much like, you know, close pot harmony, but all very visual as well. So dress up like 40s clothes, and it was all like, so we did that. And we just like went to Baskin from doing that. It's so funny that there's these two kind of formative things in my life with busking, but from busking with them. We can't like just so much stuff happened from that, you know, like someone I don't know if you know, this, I don't know if you know, do you know? I don't know how well known he is. But there's this person called Terry Wogan, or there was an amazing presenter here that like everyone loves like it was like, absolutely like he is he's not alive anymore. This Irish radio presenter that like, absolutely like one of the like, any person here is like, oh my god, Terry Wogan, my husband's amazing Irish man. So his, his producer spotted us busking. And then we went on to tear away his radio show, and then did quite a lot of different stuff with him. And then like, just on all these really nice gigs came and so like, I just had this kind of, you know, like, where you didn't know, something happened and went from being like, Oh, we let's go get some money. Like, we're also going to risk in this summer to like, going and being like, Oh, wow, this is so yeah, this kind of one of these random little chapters of life. And then, yeah, yeah. And then I do music as well. In a hospital, a few hospitals that I've had as a musician in residence where I get to work with some really amazing other artists. And that's a whole kind of other chapter almost, but I kind of do that. And then I Yeah, and then I write my own stuff still. And I continue performing. And I do work alongside my husband with the stuff that I write. And he's helped produce, he's amazing musician himself, and does lots of other stuff too. So yeah, kind of. It's an interesting thing, thinking about all this stuff. You've done all the stuff you kind of content like, yeah, there's so many different things that you're kind of balancing and then obviously, with parenthood and then obviously, with a pandemic, so it's felt like quite a strange time. Being musician now I'll say, but I feel like I'm only just post COVID Like, starting to believe that music can happen again do because there was a period probably like a year ago where I was like, oh my god, is this life now? Are you like, are we ever going to do the cake again? No, that was a really big stream of consciousness. So please ask a question. That's fantastic. Oh, it's it has it's been such a shocking time. I mean, Touchwood we've, personally we've been pretty good. We're in South Australia. So we're quite away from like the big centers like Melbourne Sydney that have had the big outbreaks. And we certainly haven't had the level of lockdowns Melbourne had been locked downs but like we haven't had the same level of lockdown as what you guys have had over there so but even in that was just like stuff was just getting cancelled left right and center and it was like Oh, really like my phone's my cherry lips kiss There we go. Did you find sort of new ways to be to K Playing music like is it really important to you to keep it to be honest, I found it like a really difficult time because I think I'd love to say like, yeah, it was amazing. And I like, did this and I went there and I wrote this and but actually, the reality is I like had a two year old. And I, I really struggled like it with it, because I think it's like, especially when some of my friends were, you know, we'd be like, Oh, I've just like, I mean, everyone's different. But some people were, you know, having a lockdown. And maybe they felt like, they were getting using it as an opportunity to write songs or something. But like, I know, I didn't, I couldn't write anything. I mean, I mean, I tried to I wrote little bits and bobs, but I just didn't really have the headspace I, I worked. So all the hospital stuff I was doing, I was really lucky to so I did that online. And so it was really interesting taking a whole practice online so that in a way it was you know, still doing creative stuff. I collaborate with these incredible like, this other singer stack, and he's World Champion beat boxer. So we kind of had to find a way to do a whole like, yeah, online offer to patients and young people that we work with. So in a way we were like, you know, we made a kind of like, harmony and beatboxing nursery rhyme album, while we were doing these, like live streams, also, you know, so I was doing stuff with them. But in terms of my own writing, I was sort of desperately trying to, like carve out a little bit of time, but it was like, and me and my husband, you know, the good thing is, is that we were at home together. So sometimes we would like you know, maybe just have like a little jam session in the evening or play through some stuff. But then it's funny with that, because you get like irritated like, oh, I want to play this or blood or play that like so then it's like I've got so we kind of bicker through what we're gonna play. But I yeah, I just found it like a really difficult time because there just wasn't. It just felt like survival because it was like, we were in a flat, we had no childcare and I had to work and my husband had to work. So it was kind of like if I wasn't doing the hospital work, I was doing child care and a flat with a two year old who is as an only child will sit away will say not was was never been the most self sufficient child never want to go and play by himself. But you know, I mean, it's not like, not a kind of, like, entertain himself if he's now four. But he's and he's amazing. He's really sweet. But you know, it's not a kind of like, oh, it just sits in the corner with the drawers while I sing. It's like, just on that I saw a video of you on your Instagram, you were seeing Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered. Yes. And you could hear this little boy's calling out. But that is literally, exactly I mean, we had that was that was actually during that period as well. Because that would be like we'd be there. And we had a piano in the living room. So at least I'd be like, you know, what I would always try and do is I think, okay, when can I sing? So it's like, he'd be eating breakfast. And I'd like you know, have a book of like, standards. And I played them on the ukulele and like, oh, like, yeah, get my house was there but exactly, you just learn how to just be like, the seeming like, yeah, okay, later, you know, but you can kind of weave it in. And then people are like, Oh, god, that's amazing that you can weave it in and you like literally the only way I get to do it. But actually recently, I'd say which has been so nice is I had a gig last week, and I had a few rehearsals. And he was so amazing. And I wasn't like it was the first time where I would say okay, I'm just rehearsing and someone's come around, and we're just singing some harmonies, I've set up your toys and stuff in your room. So you can come in if you want to play. And it was kind of the first time that he was actually just sort of doing that. And then also we went right, yeah, I went into someone else's house. And he was like, playing with a train set listening to us rehearse. And I was like, Okay, this is this is really nice. I'm really you know, so he's, as he gets older, he's like, he loves music. And he's more sort of getting a bit more not respectable, but like, he's sort of getting more of an understanding that like, this is important. And he like, you know, he'll go to sleep every, every night. He has phases that will either be like my out and he'll listen to or my husband's album or like when we were rehearsing, he was listening to my husband the other day, like doing some little electronic triggers for some of one of my songs, like really kind of abstract part of the track that like no one would really know what that was probably listen, he walked into when someone's can't be enough, right. So he's just got this like, really? You're like, yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because there's an incredible video. And I've got to commend you for teaching your child about amazing musicians about Yorke's. He must know her inside out. Yeah, just I'll just give you a bit of background for the listeners. There's a video where you're basically playing like literally snippets of songs, even like, it's like intro like the intro could even be like, the sound of a like one drum beat or something like the very beginning of a song. Yeah. And he's just yelling out the name. So, that's that Yeah. That is like bravo to you for not maybe not doing that with the wiggles but you know what I mean? Like, I know I did. Yeah, I know it's funny my husband's like tried really, he's he's always got a carrot into quite nice music and Akira loves it. But he's got this real like memory he's got. He's like that about your to a level that I know loads of incredible Buick fans. I mean, I love New York, but I don't think I know an adult that would be able to go head to head with him. Like he's so good at knowing what the title is. But every time he will listen, he won't just go like, I like this. He's like, so what's the name of this song? Can I see the cover like so he kind of just takes it all in. And then he'll say I want to listen to something I've never heard before. But Bjork, so he knows, like to give it like, the good thing about Bjork is she's got such a big back catalogue that you can keep discovering. And he's like that About Flags of the World and geography as well. He's got kind of crazy, great, amazing. Yeah. Yeah, that is so so it's actually been really nice with him to kind of discover and listen to music with him. You know, it's been a really nice thing. And like, yeah, some of our favorites. So he's just got a real quite a niche. And at his birthday party, he is his fourth birthday party. And anyone that that knows be, well, like, There's a song called Earth intruders, which is like, quite sort of. Yeah, quite intense. It's like quite rhythmical and quite heavy. And he was like, I want Earth intruder. So he's like saying he doesn't know his friends. He's just literally like, What the hell is going on? And then he's like, and then for lights and then musical statues. He's like, I want human behavior. And again, they're all just they're dancing. These guys. I think they're really enjoying it like. Now, Nasr, he likes to get the teacher to always plays on Bjork songs and come home. So they played possibly, maybe, but it wasn't the right version, but all the other kids are just like yeah, I love that. It's funny. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That brought him a Bjork t shirt for his birthday, which was what she loves is his favorite t shirt. And we did actually send because I have a friend who's like, who works who's kind of has connections of people that have connected to Bjork. So she did send me the video we didn't get a reply, but hopefully nonetheless, she's she got to watch it even if she just got to watch the video of Akira naming us she'd be pretty proud of it. I hope so. Oh, that's great. Day from all the things that you were exposed to how could what what way do you describe your style of music that for your singer songwriter? I guess I would sort of I would describe it as a ethereal very harmony driven. Yeah, I love strings. I love harmonies. And I love music that kind of creates like a sense of atmosphere and slightly otherworldly. Like yeah, so I guess it's very, like, female vocalist, but very much and yeah, and the theory away and I don't, I don't feel like it's like, oh, yeah, it's just phone call. Like it's I find it hard to kind of categorize it in a way Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say like it's it's, you know, a bit acoustic a little bit electronic. There's kind of fragments of like electronic fragments of acoustic and staff fragments of folk but all together, it's like, yeah, Ariel is kind of what I'm going for. And it's really nice because I it's taken me a long time to develop that sound like obviously, I've worked through I've been writing songs since I was like, probably 13. And I have gone through like, lots of different phases and recorded stuff that I would now say like, oh, that doesn't represent me at all. Like I kind of, you know, it's taken a while to sort of discover like, what my voice is. Yeah, what kind of musical sound I want. And I definitely think that has has my husband he's been really helpful in like yeah, I really trust his musical instinct, but I think it's the closest to I think as when you're first starting out, it's very hard to kind of sometimes trust yourself when you're like with someone that may have a louder voice or you're working with a producer or an especially because you know, I'm very much I have done more music training as I've got older and I went and studied musical in Brazil and I did different things. But I, as I said, like when I was younger, I didn't have less than I grew up and I sang in a very instinctive way. So like, actually, when you first start coming, and you're suddenly going into a world of people that kind of have different sets of theory, and then you're trying to articulate your ideas when you don't necessarily have the language for it, that can feel quite intimidating. And I think with Taz is like he is the closest I could get to like putting my ideas out so he can start. So sometimes, for example, like a lot of the stuff I've done, like, I've got a seven string guitar from Brazil, and I like, wrote a bass line on that. And then he helped translate that onto a piano like, but he did exactly what I done and was like that, or like I've got, sometimes I've written some stuff on a ukulele, I'd like some interesting chords, and then he's put that onto a heart. Or then I've written all these vocal lines, like I love writing those layers of vocal harmonies, and then he's helped translate all of those and put those onto strings. So it's like, a, you know, so it says, directors, my ideas could be with someone that can kind of translate help me translate them. Yeah, so that's, so that's been really interesting, like us working together. And obviously, he brings all his own stuff as well. But the first time we work together, I wrote this song for him. And when we first got together, and he and I knew like that, I couldn't just say the word like love, because he's he is really into lyrics, we kind of bonded over lyrics. So I remember writing the song was very pre pre kids, when you could spend hours thinking about how you wanted your lyrics to sound. So I had like, 36 pages of lyrics to get to these one lyrics. And, and I Yeah, so I wrote the song and, and then I sent it to him. And then he, like, wrote this really beautiful, outdoor piano back and then like, sent it back to me. And then from that, then that was the beginning of our collaboration. And now like, that whole outro section just has this beautiful like, Scott. It's kind of almost a track on its own. And it's got really gorgeous strings. And so yeah, we kind of always tried to collaborate in a way where like, he has sort of space to bring his style and taste and then yeah, finding his his voice comes through as well. Yeah, yeah. So how would you describe his style of music? So he has his own desk called Taz Modi. And he has his own solo project. And it's like, it's contemporary, classical, I guess. So it's very, I mean, it's really beautiful. But it's very, he plays piano and yeah, does a lot of stuff with piano strings. But he also does a lot of stuff that's electronic in it like, yeah, kind of contemporary electronic stuff. Well, doesn't really describe it very well, but quite subtle electronic stuff in there. And then he plays with a band called sub motion orchestra, and he plays a band called portico quartet. And again, both of them are kind of like elements have elements of like, electronic jazzy like. Yeah, very cool. So I first met Taz through hearing through my friend Ruby, who plays in submission orchestra who I also sing in the trio with so fast. Yeah, so I met her through that, because he plays in the band with her. And it's like, it's really nice to meet someone that you really respect as a musician. And then and then like, and then to make a connection, because I think it's so important. Like, I feel like music is such an A part of me that it's like you really, even if you just met someone, and they were like, so perfect, but you just really like, I don't know, I know, like, I have, like, you're just on a totally different wavelength musically. Like that would be I don't think that would work very well. You know, like, I know, if I did once I once was seeing someone, and he just was just he just had a really bad music taste and like, but we just, and that sounds really harsh. But it's like, we were just on a different wavelength. And I was like, it's not. It feels like such an integral part of me that if I play your song, you just don't get it like you don't get me like so. Yeah. So it's really nice that we like connect on that level. Absolutely. It has good taste. Yeah. So that's the thing is, it's about looking deeper into things and maybe seeing, seeing why you've created what you've created. And that gives you gives you a glimpse into you. And so yeah, if people are only seeing like, you know, the surface, there's, yeah, yeah. So they're like, Yeah, it's really nice. And you're like, Okay, I don't want to say that. I'm sorry. But like, with your partner, you're just like, how are you getting like, who are you? Anyway? So yeah, we do. And it's funny with Chad's because it's like, it's a really good connector between us because like, if we're really like, if we're annoying each other or kind of irritated by each other, we're having a little period of finding things challenging. Actually, probably the best way we could reconnect is like seeing each other doing music and sort of remembering who each other is, you know, because sometimes when I go and see him playing, I really kind of just see him and I like, do you not? Yeah, if you're not, I mean, and I hear the sort of sensitivity of the music that he plays. It's really beautiful. It kind of reminds me of like, really who he is like at his core, and that's like, yeah, and I think probably the same for him. It kind of really reminds you of like that. really big thing that's like a really big connection. And like I said, we connected through music, we connected through a shared love of different different styles move through a shared love of lyrics and stuff. So that is very much kind of an integral thing for us. Yeah, so. So when you guys decided to have a family? Was that Yeah. Were you conscious of how that would affect your community? Definitely. Yeah. And I really, it's still something that I found. Yeah, I just feel a little bit like, in this creative world, you're always kind of striving to do something or to like, reach some I don't know. For me, I kind of feel like there's always felt like, I've done all these really cool things, but there still feels like oh, there's this thing to actualize. And you kind of can't take your foot off, but you can't just be like, Oh, I'm just having a total break from everything. And I'll get back to my career later. You know, it's felt so i think i Yeah, so I definitely felt I was quite scared. Like having a baby. I was quite scared about like, losing my place, I guess. And actually, in a way, looking back, I actually did things like, probably in hindsight, to say, I don't, it's too soon, but like, I think, I think I'd have another baby, maybe I would give myself a bit more space. I mean, maybe I wouldn't, but like in like, I think looking back, it's like when Akira was so tiny. I was like, back doing like a really big gig when he was like seven weeks old. And he came with me. You know, and it was this like, completely silent audience of like, in a really formal place like 400 people in silence, like watching and I'd like just been like trying to breastfeed like backstage and then I like, went to sing. And then I was like, Tas came with me. So you could hold a care. But again, it's like, you know how, when you have a baby, you're completely like, it's the one thing you don't have any control, like their timing. So you know how you're like, if you like, need to get dressed up on stage, do my thing. This is timing. Suddenly, you're like, Oh, I kind of got little baby. I'm trying to get them alive. And yeah, so I kind of I remember doing that and being like, Whoa, this is actually like, I've just, I've really just had a baby. And my voice was really weird, which I get no one told me that my voice would be weird for a while after having a baby or the hormones. So yeah, it was quite, you know, and, um, and then I also went back to work at the hospital really, really soon as well, because a really good opportunity came up and I was like, oh, so I'd like you know, I do all these things like my in laws. Well, like, they'd look after I go, I'd be expressing it like, you know, when he was like, literally, like three months old, where like, I just go, I mean, I mean, little snippets, but it's like, yeah, I really, I just didn't want to Yeah, lose my place. I guess. So. And, yeah, and I think I, I want to I wonder how, if looking back if I think like, how has it affected me? And I think yeah, it has affected in lots of ways, like having a child is amazing. And I love like being a mum. It's amazing. It's given me like a sense of purpose. And also maybe that thing that you're always trying to achieve that kind of maybe, I don't know, finding a bit more peace with that and being a bit more present to the moment because actually, I think what I like one of the things about being a mum I've kind of learned since through time is if I try and do too many things at the same times as being with a carer, that's when it's stressful. Like I need to kind of, I don't want to say I need to separate my life, but I need to like it's great. Like we say in the mornings I can sing with him isn't terrible. But if I've got a gig, like actually, I really just want to have headspace to get ready for that gig. And if I am if I'm with a career in the day, I really don't want to be trying to work at the same time. You know, it's like trying to like not do it all at the same time. Because that's when I feel this real pool and I've done stuff like you know, when you're trying to get ready for a gig and you're trying to remember all the stuff you need to take and then like your child just happens to have a tantrum then and you're just like, oh god, what's been like right types hairclips things like find a deal. And what else like doing a vocal warm up? Well, like, you know, and that's when it's like, so maybe as a mom, as I'm getting older or more experienced. I'm sort of like, yeah, like I had a gig the other day and I said I was like, Oh no, we'll just get my mum to like, come over. And she will look after him. And then, and then we'll like in the night and all this stuff. And I was like, No, I just want to drop him to London and let him stay with your mom. So I don't have to have to headspace. It's like, I want to have the day to just like, prepare for this gig like mentally and practically, like, I just want to do that. And like him have a great time where he's with someone that can just be present to him. And then you know, and then and actually, it was great. And I think his task didn't quite get it. And then on the day, he was like, oh, yeah, this was actually really good. It wasn't it. So yeah, ya. I come to you it is important, I think to not only you're going out to do your gigs and have your own thing, but you still have to, while you're in your home or with your family, you still need time to be away from them. Like you need that separation, like for your sanity, you know, just to get in that zone, like you talk about just how you make sure you don't forget something for you getting ready. And, you know, definitely because it's a totally different headspace. And I think that's the thing, like when, and when you're a parent, you can't like nobody can prepare you. And I think that you can't explain the feeling of like, when you go from not being a parent to being a parent and having a baby and suddenly you're like, oh my god, I can't go for a Wii when I want or, you know, suddenly you've got this other person who is like, totally dependent on you. And it's like, it's a real shift, like you almost don't exist, I know you're getting learn your identity. But at the beginning, it's really like, what the hell like where am I bought? And I'm just now I feel like I'm a vessel for this other person. And I don't know who I am. And it's quite a weird transition period. But I think, yeah, I think that actually, and that's, you know, and I think obviously, as your child or children grow up, then you get better at like, maybe being with that. And I'm not saying that, like, you're just living for your kids, and you're not in there. But I'm, but what you have is like, when you're with your child, ultimately, like you could be about to walk out the door, and they'll be like, I need a poo or like, it's like, that's the thing, you're suddenly in this other world that you don't have really all this control of time. It's like you're in this kind of situation where actually no matter what, you're there, and you're kind of when they're little, you're there, and you're kind of helping and supporting them. So actually, it's not that it's difficult for them as well, if you're totally being like on focusing completely on something. It's like this kind of balance, isn't it? So let's see. Yeah, and then and then when you're on mute when you're being a performer, or when you're doing that is like the other extreme, isn't it? Where it's all about, like, Okay, actually, I need to think about what I'm wearing, I need to think about how I sound I need to think about what I'm gonna say like, there's all of these things, which is very much a kind of insular, like, focusing on like, you and your identity, or, you know, like the kind of the other extreme and like, so I've had a few conflicting moments where I definitely tried to do both and got really stressed. Yeah, it's an intro. But yeah, so I don't and I think that kind of sense of identity, I've really, it's still something that I yeah, I'm sort of always grappling with. And I think some people as a parent would, you know, like, I remember someone saying, like, Oh, I just want it whenever I meet anyone, I just wanna go up and tell them like, oh my god, I'm a mom. This is a no baby. And I was like, wow, I kind of I mean, obviously, that's lovely. And it's lovely that they could see my mum, but I also want to go and be like, Oh, what's the opposite was like I'm saying, this is like, I know, like, you know, because I guess it's that like, you're kind of grappling with how to be all of those things and like, yeah. I come to you. Yeah, my biggest thing was when I had my boys, it's like, you do everything for them and you like you say you exist to keep them alive. And then when you see someone down the street or someone comes to the door, the first thing they want to do is see your child. It's like, Hold on a sec. I'm the one that's keeping this thing going. I'm going you know, exactly. And I know that's natural because people are excited, but it's like you just feel like you get shafted you just Yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, whatever. I don't know. And it's Yeah. And it's weird, isn't it? Because I guess everything, everything changes. And I think, you know, I was saying that, you know, I had a really difficult experience of pregnancy because I, when I was pregnant, my mom died when I was pregnant. So I kind of had this other extreme where I was like, also, I kind of went through this identity shift where it's like, I guess, when you lose a parent anyways, already, like, who am I? And how do I exist in the world and where you exist in the world. It's like a weird, it's again, it's like one of those things that you can't, it's very hard to explain. I think it's quite an experiential thing. But when through the loss of a parent is like, your position in the world changes because you have this foundation, and suddenly you don't have a foundation, I That's how I felt so and then, but then it was like, I didn't have the foundation. But then also, I'd kind of gone up a level because I then had this other, like, needs to keep someone else alive. So I felt like in the middle, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm just sort of like, I don't have any sort of foundation below me. And now someone else needs me like, What the hell, I'm just in the middle. And it was really difficult, because you know, my husband, also, like, he would normally be very doting. But like, suddenly, all his energy went towards our son, because that's what happens. You know, when you have a pet, that's also the nub of reality, I think when you have a child is that your partner kind of they suddenly they have to also try and keep this child alive, and you don't have any sleep. And you know, so it's like this other thing where the 10 that, yeah, the support you get from them has sort of shift or you're, you know, I don't know if you find that, but your role is like sort of shifted a bit, because suddenly, you're both putting a lot of energy into another human being. Yeah, absolutely. It's like your relationship between you has changed from the energy give each other to the energy that you both give to something. Yeah. 100%. And then you have to learn how to find that energy for each other, too. But actually, in the beginning, it is definitely like, yeah, it's a shift and like, so yeah, to be honest, like that period for me was just, you know, well, pretty, like, yeah, awful. Really. I mean, it's weird, because I you know, and it's so weird looking back at those early that early stage, because it's like, on the one hand, it was lovely. And Akira is a beautiful little boy. He's lovely. And he's, you know, so on the one hand, like, I have all these special memories, but I'm also like, oh my god, that was the hardest moment in my life, because I was just like, new mom, who the hell am I really sleep deprived in total grief, desperately trying to like, bring together my own, like, really trying to hold on to like my identity with you know, like, just that kind of thing. Like, it's incredibly true. Yeah. Yeah. So it was very full on. Yeah. I'm sorry. That's Thank you. Yeah. I wanted to ask them, he said that you your face kickback was at seven weeks. Mine was at seven weeks to you. So when you said that. But within that timeframe, where you and I know we've just talked about everything that we're doing for the baby, but I guess you would have been having to rehearse the gig like we, you were still we're still in music. You just like, yeah, I must have done. I'm trying to think of that. Did I? Yeah, it was kind of blur, isn't it? I probably would have done? Yeah, I don't think I think in that time, I probably wasn't massively, but then I would know, not knowing that gig as well as you normally they'd be like, can you learn a new cell or something? So maybe I thought, yeah, I would have probably been rehearsing, but very much like the people I was playing that gig with. It was with the sugar sister. So it was with the two other females and like, one of them also had a daughter, so they would have been very, like, you know, come to our house and like a Cadillac here. Right. You know, like, it would have been that kind of way of rehearsing, you know, it would have been sort of, okay, yeah, really support. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But I do remember even trying to get to the gig was just like, Oh, I just remember like, it was really stressful. Like it was, I just kind of have this memory of me and he was like, trying to, you know, trying to leg it to get a train and it's like, raining and he was like, cry. And then we're having to like go to like pub on the way to, like, change it or I don't know, some kind of like, you know, it's like, but again, it's like you're trying to make two worlds of like a world that existed like, you have to be here on time to time with a world that is like with babywearers that actually, that is not the world you're living is this to happen right now. Okay, let's stop everything I need to feed him or whatever. Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting time to doesn't exist the same way. It's definitely a classic world. Fragments on that support element, did you have other people around you? You mentioned one of your co singers in your group had a child was there people around you that could sort of empathize and help you out and go, Oh, yeah, we get take a bit of pressure. Yeah, it kind of it was weird because I met. Or I did meet like a lot of other moms. And my, my sister also had a few has two children that are before me. So she's and we're really, really close in age. And we're really close. So she was like a really big support. But she lived in Devon. So that's quite far. And, you know, I mean, I guess it's probably not in Australian terms. But in the UK. We think it's quite far, because it's like five hours away from where we were. But yeah, but I did meet a lot of other moms. But it was a really weird time for me, because it was like, I felt very isolated. Because I had met all of these people. Like, we went to NCT. And do you have entities you know, that like the parent like, so it's the kind of thing? Yeah, so you go when you're pregnant, and you meet people, and, and it was, you know, and I've now met people that are like, I've got a few really, really close friends from there. And you know, we all had babies at the same time. But it was weird, because it was like, I was dealing with this. Like, I just couldn't, I went there. Can you imagine this was like, literally about four weeks after my mom had died. And everyone's just, they're like, Hi, what's going on for you? And I was like, Okay, guys, like, I just need to, like, this is my thing. I can't not this is what's happening. You know, I didn't Yeah, it's not like I chatted about it all the time. But it's like, I think and I think people didn't realize at the time, because I was like, I recently lost my mom. And I think it was only like, a bit after that. They were like, oh my god, I thought you'd meant like last year, I didn't realize it was just now. So I kind of like I felt this. Yeah, it was quite a weird sense of like being with everyone and having these amazing people who are lovely, who I became friends with, but no one else was having the same experience. And so it was quite isolating time at the same time, because you're just feeling something so full on I guess it might be, I guess, if you're feeling like, postpartum depression or something where you're like having something where you're like, you know, you're having such a kind of different experience of things. And I guess all like, you know, people were, your worries are very different to other people's you. I mean, if someone's talking about like, the color of the nursery, and you're just like, oh my god, like, what is my life good, like, you know, and then yes, invalidate those concerns, but like, you're just in a different place. But yeah, I did. And I really worked to, you know, build those relationships and carried on nonetheless, I'm not someone that would just sit in my house like and not do, like, I'll like, go out and meet people and keep trying and go into groups, you know, and, like, I'm very much a kind of was, I don't know, like what the word is. But, uh, I'm high functioning. I am high functioning. Grievers. You know, I mean, it's not like I didn't, I could have definitely not out there. But I didn't that was that was also the thing. It's probably the way I'd love to ignore get outta bed. But I needed to because my child was like, you know? Yeah, so, but now I've got a really nice network of friends. And then even here, you know, we've met some other really nice people even moving here. And Akira is still friends with like, you know, the people that we were with in London, and I had a great that, that, that first period of time where it was like, you know, like, yeah, like doing lunch, just being on a totally different time schedule with, you know, just sort of just getting into living in the moment and stuff with with other parents and stuff, you know. But yeah, it's very mixed time looking back on that, I guess, for me. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's right. Like you say, like, you're experiencing something at the same time as everyone else, you're but you're experiencing something so much more. Greater. Yeah, the emotional pull on you is just incredible. And yeah, yeah. Then, like you said, you're talking about all the, you know, the superficial things and you're like, yeah, no, there's actually yeah, you know, this is and it's and it's not fair, because you also know that like, and that is important to those people, like, you know, like that, that is totally valid, like what they're going through is totally valid. It's just that you're going through something very and that's sometimes their experience. It makes it you know, and, and it's hard like, it's so when you lose your thing for me, that was really difficult. It's like seeing people with their moms and stuff like that was so painful, you know, there's a constant reminder so that like, you go to the playground and someone's there with their mom and dad, and you're just like, oh, like Yeah, yeah, it's all around you. Definitely. Yeah. Listening to the art of being my mom I listened wanted to ask about Akira festival. That is an awesome name we have. Yeah, it's so random. I think that we like, I remember that it was kind of random that my sister sent me. I was texting my sister on I suppose pregnant about like names. And then I think there was some like spell misspelling. And it came up with some really sort of random name that sort of sounded slightly Japanese that was like, I can't remember it was but it was really cool. And I was like, What are you suggesting this like Japanese name and then we, and we thought it was brilliant. But then it was like, Okay, well, maybe not that well. But then we were just like, okay, it was really cool. And there was a there's a director called Akira Kurosawa who my mom really liked. And like Taz, who's really interested in MMA, like loves and like so it wasn't, it wasn't in any way because we were like, We love the director, we have to honor him. It was just that we were just like, that's kind of a cool name. And there's an I think it's a my mum was was Scottish. And I think it can apparently it is, has like Scottish like, yeah, roots, and it's sort of Scottish for Yeah, maybe for girl I can't remember. But I feel like it is in Scotland, apparently. And also, apparently it's in India and has his family has his dad's Indian. So we're like, Well, clearly there's like some connection and yeah, it's bold. It's a bold choice. But honestly, I think the energy leads to Brits I've seen on videos. Yeah. Satine. Perfect. Yeah, no, it's good. He's Yeah, we haven't met another. Okay, we're actually we did meet we met one girl that was called Akira. So I think it is a unisex name. Right? Like, yeah, but apart from that, and I yeah, I haven't met another girl. And I think she was Japanese. But I think parents in Japan, it's very much like a it's quite common, like, so I think it's in Japan. It's just like, Dave or something. You know, it's not like it's not unusual. So whereas here, it's like, just great. Yeah, it's I work in childcare. So I see a lot of different dates. Yeah. When I when I eat when that I like that. Oh, well. Oh, thank, you know, what I was gonna ask you about, about him? Did you find your songwriting has has changed, or, or sort of been influenced by becoming a mother? Yeah, I yeah, I think so I don't, I feel like, it certainly has, to an extent of like, I used to spend a really long time writing lyrics. And that's like what I like doing. I mean, I feel like the process is, like, laborious, and I don't necessarily enjoy it when it's happening. But I kind of like the results. So it's like, obviously, you know, I can rise, it's really easy to write some, like kind of throwaway lyrics I can, that's something you can do like quite quickly, but then to like, really create depth and like imagery and kind of take it, I would normally spend a really long time going through it. And I found that quite challenging in a way because I'm like, Oh, that's not really the way like you don't when you're a parent, you don't really have the privilege of being like, I'm just gonna spend a few days just really delving into this time. And suddenly you're like, right, there's a window, I just really need to be creative in this small time I've got so yeah, I think that's a that's quite interesting. And then it's funny how I'm like, also on the other side of that is like, at work, I'll often, you know, we'll be writing songs really, really quickly with people like that's what you do, like, you can facilitate other people to write really quickly. Or I'm running these like, Yeah, different sort of somewhere in sessions for different organizations. And yeah, it's so I think it's, um, I feel like in terms of content, I haven't I have kind of written some stuff around it, but I haven't I don't know how the contents like changed in a way because I feel like interestingly, for me, there was so much like, wrapped up around Yeah, parenthood and loss. And it was it was so like, sort of wound up like it was so I've kind of you know, I did like lots of different like grief counseling stuff to kind of try and unwind stuff. And I feel like at the beginning when I first had a carer, I just couldn't like I really want to point out like, I feel like it sounds like a really negative one. No, because I looked like it was really nice, obviously, you know, yeah, there's all these amazing positives. But equally, there was so much there was so much wound up in it that for a while, I found it really hard to like, write anything because it just felt like, you know, it was just like, well, this is just opening. Like, there's just, I can't really express this. There's too much in here. And I think now only in the last kind of couple of years, or actually, to be honest, only really, I started writing bits and bobs in lockdown, but not really having that much space. But only recently have I started to like really have a bit more sort of headspace and like time. And yeah, I guess it has changed because I guess I have changed, in a way is what I'd say. But I don't. But I haven't written like anything up for like specifically for him. Sometimes he's like, can you write a song for me, please? He's like, one day can I write? Can I be in it? Okay, cool. So yeah, that will come but it's so hard isn't it sometimes, like expressing all of this? I think I used to like when he was a little baby. I used to just like make up little songs and sing them to him when he was a child. Like make little all these little voice notes. But yeah, it's an evolving process, I guess is what I'd say around like Yeah. Yeah, when you mentioned their hair, he's, he's saying write songs for me whenever he's obviously quite aware that what you do and what dad does? Oh my god, like, yeah, he literally, like analyzes my lyrics more than anyone, like, in a way that like, no one pays any attention. So I'll go in and he's like listening to one of my songs at night. And he'll be like, so when you say this, what do you mean? He's like, learn the lyrics. And like, yeah, he wants he picked up I have this on on one of my lyrics. It's like, the oceans part. We meet and falling through Blue scenes. Night unveils the see unraveled, you find me. And he was like, Oh, I like the way you say unraveled there. It's kind of similar to be Oxon unraveled, isn't it? And I was like, no one has ever noticed. Like, and I'm always like, inspired by BJOG, like, unraveled, that's a great word. The only person who was three at the time, I feel anyway, but yeah, sorry for interrupting. Oh, no, no, no, that literally is about Yeah, it was heading down that path about he's, do you think, is it important to you? For your identity? I suppose that he's aware of what you do. Yeah, definitely. I think it is. Because I think, yeah, it's really nice for him to kind of know us. And, yeah, and it is, and it's nice for him. And because there's a part of him as well, in a way, you know, it's like such a Yeah, so I think it is, and it's important for him also, to kind of understand us as human beings as well, like, not just as parents, which is, you know, really not I think that's that's great, isn't it? When they're like, Oh, you, you exist, and you do all this stuff. And it's funny, because he always wanted me to go to his nursery, I think, yeah, like last it was about a year ago, we were singing a song together and he said, Oh, can you sing it at nursery so I had to go and like he got got me he was really sort of nervous. But he asked me to like, sing the song together. And it was teacher so we did. And he was like saying we need like we need to do it was really cute. But then like at Christmas I when he I went and I thought okay, I'm gonna go and just offer like, you need to go and do some Christmas singing in his nursery because it's like a really as a little Christmas present to them as that I'll go and sing with them. And so he was really excited about it. And then when I got there, he was literally just so like, it was really interesting, because he obviously all the kids are there. And like you said, you work with the MPC. Like, you know, you start seeing them. Oh, yeah, they're all really you know, and they're always wanting to cut like, yeah, they're already close. And they're all right, right there. And he was a bit like, about really kind of possessive like hugging me. He was also going after I started sang a couple of songs. He was like, Yeah, can I go play now? And I was like, oh, like singer, your master, but it's like his way of processing it. So yeah, he was really really proud as well. Yeah. I feel like it's a nice thing seeing you know, he, he's frequently kind of saying like, Oh, can I make up a song? And I'm like, Yeah, sure. And then we'll, like make little voice clips of him singing and, but the hilarious thing is because he loves Bjork. He was like he thinks in a really big walk away like a really like, Yeah, he'll be like, all this other ground like, expressive way. But yeah, I think it's like, you know I love that that's his he's very much music is a natural thing for him and I love that he knows that about us and also isn't just kind of like oh yeah mom and dad now I love that he wants to listen to us like he'll let literally I'll go in and he's listening to my music on repeat but he also does it with my mom, my mom's got an album and he will also listen to Yeah, so he'll might listen to one of her songs on repeat like in the night as well sometimes. So that's really lovely as well just like having that connection with people through music. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's so yeah, hopefully. Yeah. What was What's your mom's name? She was called net net McClelland the guy Oh, that's just lovely. Yeah, yeah this thing should be done yet. Though you try so hard. Those things you won't want to? Be. Know, we've sort of touched on identity a little bit, and talked about like the pool between the two and separating and stuff. One thing that I really liked to talk to moms about so bad for us, I really like to talk to you about your mum guilt. You know, like, it sounds really bad that I'm excited about it. But yeah, what are your thoughts about it? How do you feel about it? All that kind of stuff? No, I didn't know I was thinking about this. Before the interview. I was like, how, what is what do I think about mum? Gill? Yeah, I think I don't know how I know some people suffer from it really badly. And I was trying to be like, do I like how do I feel? And I guess it's when you? Yeah, when you're trying to do staff or like, if you're like, leaving, and he, like, going to do something, and then he's really upset or something like that. Like, that's when you could start feeling it. I think when I go, like, I think, you know, I've done some kind of like residentials have gone away and done some stuff. And it's like, when I do it when I'm there. I I'm okay, like I think I'm I'm quite good at sort of existing, like we have a really strong connection, but I'm quite good at like doing stuff being present in a different thing. And actually with Akira he's really good because because we've always, like worked and stuff. He from a really young age has gone and been the tases parents or the TAs or you know, he's actually very adaptable. Like he's not, I don't think he's a massively clingy child. Because, yeah, not that there's anything wrong with that. But like, it's like, that's just always been a lifetime. I mean, like, I went back to work really early and I. But then I'll also have like, really intense time with him. So it's not Yeah, I wouldn't go back to work full time. But I think so I think he is really happy. Like when he's with tases parents. He'll be like, I didn't miss you at all, sometimes. But at the moment, he's really like, never leave me. So we kind of go between these but anyway. But he's like, Yeah, I think we're quite good at like, being he's very confident and settled in a way. So we're quite good at like, sort of it not existing separately. But you know, like doing, like if I do things, having a great time with his grandparents, and I'm like, a way and I'm doing something creative. Like what I'm doing. I'm working on doing something like I don't I don't know, I'd not I? Yeah, I don't know if I feel guilty. But I Yeah, but I definitely can feel that pool when you're like, if they're really upset or they need you or like obviously, when you're kind of going I basically one of the things I do is I work for this amazing organization called Ultra young musicians. And I go and every month I go to Suffolk and work with really great artists and I'm like the songwriting specialist there. So every month I'll go away for a couple of days. So it's like and typically when you're about to get on the train to leave, they're like nursery phones and they're like, yeah, he's just been sick. You know, it's always like that, isn't it when you go away that that's when they're just kind of like randomly they'd get sick and stuff. So there's that wasn't that but yeah, and that's when you're a bit like, Oh God, my child and they're gonna be okay and leaving I'm like really far away and then without me and yeah, so I don't know the answer to mom guilt to be honest, that's really good now how do I feel about it? That's good we go you mentioned that you do your residency at the hospital. Can you share more about what, what's involved? About the other artists? And yeah, yeah, so basically, I started working there in 2015, and it was like this project that so it's on pediatric wards on the children's ward. And they weren't, they already had like music stuff. So it's a heart and lung hospital, I started working and they already had this whole singing for breathing program there for our adults. And then they wanted to look at like bringing music for children and young people. So I went and I was like, the first person that to do it, it was like just little old me like sort of trying to bring music to this ward. And then as it started, it was and it was great. So you're doing Yeah, a real mix that went through different ages. So that can be anywhere between like, like leading mums, you know, creating a kind of music group that people like that they would normally be going to these like groups of babies, for example, it says, so you're kind of doing like that with songs or doing kind of performance, the staff more like you're going to sing soothing lullabies, or you're like doing a singing for breathing session with young people, or Yes, it's very much like led by the young people that you work with, it's sort of guided by what's needed in the situation. And then after I'd been working there for about a year, we, we were like, Oh, this is great. And people are really engaging. But there's a whole like group, so maybe sort of teenage boys, for example, as a total generalization, but it was gonna probably be more difficult to be like, you want to do a singing breathing session, you know, like that. Yeah, some, some say yes. But so then we decided, like, then I had some really good friends who have beat boxes. So then we're like, oh, let's maybe bring beat boxing. And so then it developed into this whole big project now, which is basically singing and beat boxing. And yeah, and I play ukulele there as well. And just kind of, and so we just do a whole range of things. And it's amazing, like, I get to collaborate with lots of different artists, and we go in onto the water, they kind of, you know, you'll go there. And it's like, everyone knows, okay, you come in on this day, and there'll be like, a waiting for you. And then you seal that because it's a heart as a specialist hospital. So you'll frequently have people that will come like a couple every couple of months, or maybe it's that maybe some people will say, really long term, or some people will, like keep returning because they have cystic fibrosis, or they'll come back for different treatments. So it's like, you build a whole relationship with them. It's been really intense through COVID. Because obviously, we couldn't go on to the ward for like, yeah, yeah, over a year. And, and now even now, I'm there by myself at the moment, but like, we still I still can't sing. So it's been really full on. So I've had to do a heartlight develop a whole new practice. But hopefully soon, we'll be able to, but Yeah, cuz it's like, the more that restrictions open up here, almost the more intense it needs to become on the ward because obviously COVID is still happening, especially for vulnerable people, you know, there's clinically vulnerable people that like, you know, are very affected. So, yeah, so it's been it's been a really interesting journey for me like doing that without singing, which is like exactly what I love doing. And yeah, and I do and I also work at Great Ormond Street Hospital, which is another like, that's a really big Yeah, Children's Hospital where there's like all that's has all different specialisms. And then there's another one that I do some work out to which is which we which the vocal beat that's called vocal beats the project that we do at Royal Brompton Hospital with beatboxing and, and singing and like we've got there's lots of stuff like, online there's a whole there's like a nursery rhyme album on YouTube, but it's kind of like nursery rhymes that I could deal with listen to because as a parent and as a musician, a lot of them are just like, you know, you know, I'm saying Okay, so these are like, you know, nice nursery rhymes with harmonies and things that we, you know, that I would be happy to listen to. And then we've also got like a YouTube channel that we that because we started on the project, where at first it was just from nought to 16 year olds, but then it was like, Okay, actually, there's this whole group of young people from 16 to 25, that when you leave the children's ward, you're suddenly like an adult, but you don't really feel like an adult. So we then started, like, developed a whole program to support young adults in their transition. And then part of it we like CO design the YouTube channel with them. So there's a whole YouTube channel where I've done all these like, singing tutorials and beatboxing tutorials. It's called vocal beats, and it's gone. And I wrote, I wrote a ukulele book recently. There's always like, ukulele videos and like, so yeah, there's a lot of people like hospitalized or not like for any young people that just want to engage. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah. So it's something I mean, I'm really lucky to have done it. Like, it's great to do that as well. It's like, that must be just so rewarding to like, feel like you really feel real. I hate to using the word privilege now, because it's got a new home. Yeah. So yeah, show you that, you know, yeah, definitely. And it gives you like, it's really good. I think it's a really good. I mean, it's, it helped me a lot as an artist, because I think, you know, when you're working on a ward, it's as much as it's about obviously, it's like being talented, or, you know, so it's like, you want to have a really high caliber of musicians. And that's great. And we, you know, the program is like, really specialist and really amazing musicians. So you want to have that, but actually, an equal part, it's not like you could have the best musician in the world. And they it's not, it's almost more about the personality, like they need to be good musicians, but it's about being able to kind of relate, communicate, connect with people, because like, you are essentially walking into their bedroom in a really vulnerable situate, like, you know, you're going in to that someone's like, room when they're like child might just be about to have surgery, or like you're dealing in an intimate space. So actually, it's a real human to human connection. So you need to, like, have these like, yeah, like this kind of, you need to be able to connect and be really empathetic, but like, yeah, it's just, it's really interesting. And I think that as definitely, as an artist, there's kind of, it's really helped me actually on stage. Because it's like, when you go and sing an award, you can't like just like, say, for example, you were like someone that always only ever had your eyes closed. Like if you went in there and started seeing with your eyes first. That would never work because it's like, you have to be like I'm here. I'm another human. And we're like, connecting, and I'm making you feel really comfortable. And it's 100% not about me, it's about you. And I'm not gonna sing song. Like, there's not really any ego in this. It's about me providing something that's like, great for you. You know, like, yeah, yeah, when you're on stage, it's like, actually, it's really helpful with like, how to kind of be intimate and talk to the audience and stuff. Even if you've got like hundreds of people. It's like, you can create intimacy. Yeah, yeah. It's so yeah, I remember, as a kid singing, our teacher taught us to look over the top of people's heads. He used to teach us not to eyeball people, because I think he thought it would put us off, or, you know, we'd start laughing or whatever. Then I came to this point in my singing that I thought, Oh, my God, I'm connecting to people. I'm just looking at. Similar thing. Like, you have to, you have to look at these people. Because they're in your you're in their space. Yeah, yes. No ego. It's about what you're giving to them. So like, it breaks down that barrier. Yeah, your audience almost becomes a part of your performance. Like, it's not like you're exactly. And then, like, you're all together. Yeah, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. And there are people out there who are like, you know, the greatest. They're certain artists who are so amazing. Like, they can sit on stage with, like, 1000s of people. And it's as though they're like, having a really intimate chat is that you know, yeah, absolutely. That like that relationship with them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a really interesting and yeah, you do feel really privileged. It's also you know, it's, it can also be really emotionally challenging as well. I do a lot of, you know, also working with, you know, yeah, kids with cancer are working with, oh, you know, that dealing with loss, which you do, like, or, you know, that is some of the patients we work with are really, really sick. So, that can be really challenging, but also it's like you do equally. The same reason it's really challenging. You get to like, it's also really rewarding, because you're like, Oh, my God, like this person had a really short life. And I made a really big impact. Like the other day, I was just working and I went and like, there was some parents and they were sitting in the room and their child had gone down for theater. So they're obviously like, anxious as you would be if your child is going off to theater. And I went to do music with another little kid in the bay that we're in and the mom before I started, oh my god, like I just need to show you this before she had these really beautiful photos on her phone or when her child that was like about four I think now had been a little Baby to take most photos of me singing to her child. And she was like, Oh, we've had these all printed out. Like they're in this book. You're such a big part of his journey, you know? So like, it's really nice when you're like, yeah, yes, this makes feel emotional. I know. Oh, my God, I could go on. That's a really like, light story. But yeah. I know. I know. Yeah, it's very. So it's it was interesting. Like, I would also say that as the headspace, like, sometimes I feel very pulled in different directions, because it's such, it's like, you need so much headspace that that work is amazing. But it's like you are processing so much, you know, because it's like you're taking in, you're going into like, really emotionally charged atmospheres. And you're trying to like, and you can't go, like you're trying to process something, you know, which can just be that you're, you're there and you're seeing someone dealing with a really complex situation. Or sometimes you see someone that's the same age as your own child, and you're like, Oh, my God, you know what I kind of really resonate with you. Or there's sometimes obviously you do deal with loss. And so it's like, you kind of and it's again, it's very hard to explain that, like you're in this world, and then you come home and then you're trying to like, process that as it takes quite a lot of headspace. And then obviously, then you've got like the headspace then obviously, that that headspace doesn't exist in parenting, you know, like, then you come home, and it's like, you're just there for your family and stuff. And then you're dealing with like, headspace of like, being your own artist. And so it's like, and then you're just doing the headspace of like, I really need to just sort my house out because I just need to decorate or needs to be tidied or whatever, you know. So there's so many parts of you that you're always like, Wow, it really, there's so many different directions isn't there that you feel like you're kind of being pulled in. And, and I really, I, you know, so grateful to have created a life where I am able to do music, you know, like, I'm still into, like, I'm still doing singing and performing. And then with the staff, the hospital work that I'm still doing some, like, I'm still using my musicality to do the work that I do. And that's like, you know, it's really like lovely, and you really get to see the impact of music in a way that you don't see in like many other places, I would say like it just it like, it just lands in that space. Because it's such an emotionally charged space. It's just like, you really see this kind of very immediate impact. If you're not like yeah, it's Oh, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. Actually, I'm getting goosebumps when you say that. It's just like, it's so music is just incredible, like the connections and yeah, out to can transform you from one time to another and totally amazing. Yeah. 100% Yeah. And I think people are starting to see it, like a bit more in a way. You know, I guess that the way that they're seeing that, like, the impact that music can have on dementia patients or like people, you know, that it's like, how like, just stuff that is like, wow, this is kind of magic. Stuff that you see that music does, and it happens literally all constantly with the work we do. There'll be these things that have happened that you're like, Whoa, you know, like this the first time that someone has come out of surgery, like they haven't stood up for days and suddenly the music makes the baby stand out. Well, you know, this is a little you're just seeing like this amazing impact. Yeah, I mean, music is and music is the best thing ever. Think singing is like the best thing and then harmonies best really love. Honestly, when I read like Instagram bio and have kids like I'm like probably 2020 years formally in a in a vocal group. Like because. So harmonies but right right from the beginning of my life. Sorry, I'm gonna I'm gonna talk that was selfish. To talk to a fellow musician. Yeah. My sister and I were there's two and a half years between us and we're both got very similar voices, except she can go lower, and I can go higher, but we're still got the same. Like when we're both singing It's really hard to tell us apart. So we Oh, that's so nice. Yeah, something about blood singing Isn't that likes people when you're related? It's awesome. And yeah, so we've always sang together. We used to mess around and do concerts on the on the Sunday afternoon like push the the coffee table. Table do concerts for mom and dad. And my parents weren't like not they weren't like musical at all. They loved music, but neither of have them actually played or sang but their siblings or mums. Dad was very, very good singer and his mom. So my great grandmother was an opera singer. Not I don't think she was a formal but she had an amazing, amazing. Wow, I never heard it in real life, but I've heard lots of stories. And then my dad's side, his sister and his brother by sing, and his mum was really good thing. And his dad was a good thing I found out later in life. So it was, but it wasn't right there for my sister we just had they just had it in your blood. Yeah. And I first discovered harmonies because dad used to play a lot of American country music like Johnny Cash and Don Williams, and don't John Denver, and they're all obviously male singers. And I wanted to sing along, but I couldn't sing low enough in their register. And because I'm an outer, I couldn't sing an octave up. I mean, I probably could now but at that point, as a kid, I couldn't. So I had to learn a way to sing along. So I just started singing in harmonies, and wow, it was just this innate thing. I don't read like I couldn't read music to get by. But I'm not like a theory person by any means. So things by Yeah. Yeah. And that used to really annoy my, my, or like my organ teacher and my chill. I could read bass clef though. I can read bass clef. Not anymore, but it was really odd how your brain works. Yeah, so yeah, my sister and I've always saying she's always saying that she and I've always seen the harmonies, and it's just we've been like that our whole life. And it's so much more interesting as well, isn't it? Sometimes it's not like, you're like, hey, I want to do the harmony. Today, we'll be talking about how your husband you and your husband get on musically when my husband is musical. And not he doesn't do much these days. But he used to play in a in like a covers band in a country pub sort of environment. And when we first got together, I realized very quickly that he actually sang the harmonies. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is gonna work. That seems like a split second. And Alison, it's okay. And I grew up listening to like, my mom listens to like Crosby, Stills and Nash and I don't like like very much like, I grew up listening a lot to Harmony stuff. And that's kind of how I learned to sing harmonies was like, you know, singing in the car with my mum, and I'd be like, I'll try and do this one. And you do that one, and then she gave to my one. I'm gonna stick to your one. Anyway, yeah, but the staves are kind of like a modern day. I mean, they're gorgeous. You're like, if you're a harmony enthusiasts, they they are incomparable. I would say, you know, I've seen this live a few times and they've got the big sisters have which is like, there's something about blood people like related to each other Singing isn't there but you have sometimes like, is that a magic that you just have? It's like you have like an you have a what's the word? Not a telepathic connection? Is that what it is? Yeah, you can actually read each other and you know what someone's about to do and you can Yeah, like you change at the exact same time it's just yeah, it's always pretty special. Yeah, yeah yeah. Yeah, I've been doing stuff with Yeah, with some new singers recently, some really great singers are doing backing vocals to me and, and they sound lovely, but I was thinking, I wonder if I would do like because I've always done my own harmonies and it is like in tears was saying, oh, you know, actually in a way it's always the best he was like No, I think the best is always having people that blend really well. It was like you know I think the Beach Boys like they've all got so yeah, also you have got away like when you write yourself like in your mind it sounds like Yeah, it's interesting was recorded that you're like, yeah, how so? I've always ended up my own harmonies but yeah, maybe maybe I'll graduate to but it has to be so freakin tight doesn't have someone else's harmonies on your track but they are excellent at blending. And you're so critical of it because you know how you want it done. And you know how you could do it. So you're like yeah, every little bit you like yeah, Yeah, I guess I'm just kind of in terms of stuff that's coming up is like, yeah, it's just I think I'm getting gradually, like a little bit more space and time, you know, as Akira is getting a bit older, and we're sort of settling in here. And things are shifting a bit with COVID. And, you know, you can see sort of a bit of light at the end of that tunnel that, you know, starting to find because when I first moved here again, it was like, it was again, like, how do I you know, bring my identity, this singing identity here, because I kind of, I was in London, and then I came here on a lockdown. And then I really wasn't music. And then it's like, you meet all these really lovely people. But then you kind of also want to share like the other aspect. You know, it's like, yeah, of yourself. And actually, one thing that's been really nice is when I did a gig recently, and it's a fast game I did in Brighton, which is near to where we live, which is the biggest city where the city near where we live. And you know, it's fairly close. But it was really nice to see. All of like, my new neighbors, and we've met some really great people. Yeah, all of our new neighbors, just being so like, supportive and like really, yeah, just really excited and like coming to the gig. And you know, and it's really nice, because I guess that felt kind of, I don't know why it felt so important. But I just really, you want, you know, yeah, you kind of want to feel because I guess music is like, it's such a part of like who I am. It's not this kind of thing that I'm just like, oh, yeah, I just like do this thing. It's like, it feels like this. Yeah, this big part of who you are. So it's like, you kind of want to be able to bring that aspect of yourself. And I guess it's been a real the last couple of years. For me personally, I have found it a real challenge in terms of music, because it's like, you know, all the live, like the whole live industry is pretty much sort of, you know, shut down. And then also like, not even being able to sing on the wards. So it's like, I just had this thing where I've just been, like, you know, for the first time in my life is just like, oh my god, like, I'm sort of desperately trying to do this thing. But then you're like, why this is so feels like such a kind of uphill struggle. But then at the same time, you're like, oh, but who am I if I don't do that, because that is kind of who I am. Yeah, so it's just, it's been really nice to have a bit of time to yet I kind of am starting to feel again, like, Okay, I'm reconnecting with that, you know, like that side of myself doing music rehearsing people performing in like, the last gig that I did, I really tried to enjoy the process as well, rather than just, you know, like all the because it is a bloody lot of work, isn't it when you're doing stuff, but try to enjoy, like, every rehearsals when you're like getting to hear your songs being played and singing harmonies with all these really amazing singers I was working with and like, yeah, so it's like, trying to bring that in, rather than just Yeah. Because if you don't enjoy the process, then it can just feel like a hell of a lot of work, you know? Yeah. Do you think that that's also because? Because you are now a mom. It's like, every little that you do, you're holding on to that, and you see the importance in it. Whereas before it was, yeah, I've got to get this done. And then the gigs the big thing? Oh, yeah, definitely. And I also feel like as a mom, I mean, you get really good at just like, using your time well, don't you because you have so little time, so you get really good. And you know how you asked about? I guess like creatively, a really positive thing about being a mom, is that you don't that you don't wait for inspiration. Do you? If you're like, I need to do something creative. I've got like these hours on a Friday. Yeah, that's my creative time. You know, like, it's not like, I feel like it's just like, No, that is my creative time. Yeah. And like, and also I don't feel like you know, in the evening and stuff, like sometimes in the evening, you feel like doing stuff but equally in the evening. If you're just you know, you're pretty knackered against our writing songs. I mean, it's much more of a like, I'd way prefer to, like get up really early and do stuff like that'd be my my thing. Yeah, so I guess like, because I feel it's funny thinking about all the the way we've discussed stuff because I don't, I don't want to feel it sound like a really negative parent, because I feel like I'm really not. You don't sound like that. Because, like, I feel like but it is, you know, but the reality but I think I'm also very honest, because the reality of parenting is that, you know, it is like in terms of a whole identity of being an artist being a mom. Yeah, like it really is a big shift, isn't it? You're learning it takes time to kind of come to terms and all that to kind of find who you are. And I guess for me, because I have had such an intense like You know, journey of parenthood, like loss of a mother, then the pandemic, there's two, like quite intense things have happened at the same time. So you're like processing so much stuff. And then just finding. Yeah, and then the other side of being a parent is I think it gives you like, freedom with Akira, I think it's also sometimes I'm very much someone that like, feels I'm very much someone that likes to be doing stuff, you know, quite, there's quite a lot of pressure of like, oh, I need to be, you know, I like to achieve things I like to do. So it's like quite a river. And then like, always, like, oh, I should be trying to do this and do that. And I want to write this and I want it you know, there's always a sort of drive. And I think with a, when you have a child, it's been quite good for me to learn to like, just be in the moment as well German and not feel guilty that like, I haven't been creative, like, on that day is like, oh, yeah, you can, like, get some foam out and play on the tray or whatever. You know, it's like, you're just like, in the moment doing stuff with him and kind of discovering things and having like, these days, so yeah, you know, and he's gonna go to school in September. So it's gonna be like, this whole new chapter of like, getting sort of, you know, different time back and stuff. A new chapter. Yeah, it's exciting to look forward to that too, isn't it? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. next five days. Now, good on. Yeah. And look, honestly, you you have not come across as negative at all. Please don't like that. Because everything you've said, People mums have said it before. It's like, yeah, it feels the same way. It's like, yeah, it's just what it is. Yeah, and it's really hard. I think the difficulty is with parenting, is if you said to something like if someone who hasn't got a child hears this, they'd be like, Oh, that sounds awful. You know, I mean, because but what you don't always like what you can't really express is that sort of sense of love, isn't it? So you don't go around being like, Oh, my God, I love my child so much. It's amazing. He's given me purpose. It's just so brilliant. You kind of like the part that you will be like, yeah, because obviously, that's just like a given, isn't it? So it's like, another parent, you just know, like, yeah, obviously, like, you think your child is incredible. And it's the best thing you've ever done. And it's amazing. Like, that's a given. And it's really hard, because it's this, this, this, this and that, but that's the stuff you're talking about. But like, yeah, so that's the difficulty is I think people would just be like, Wow, that really doesn't like sound. Like, like the benefits outweigh the costs. Somehow, if you and I remember hearing someone say, it's like, if you tally everything up, actually, definitely the costs do not outweigh the benefit. Like there are a lot of costs, but then the benefits are so incredible in that small like that, that it makes it all worth it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. My I've got a 40 CD and 14 He's turned 14 over a six year old and a 14 year old and my 14 year old the other day. I like not the other day all the time. If we're having trouble with the little one. Alex will go this is why I'm not having kids. I'm not having children and like if he just keeps coming up with this stuff. I'm not doing that. I see how to use b I'm not doing that. Like mate but it is so good. Like you just say yeah, the hard stuff that's the stuff that's loud and gets noticed you know the the activity whatever exactly the challenges, the challenges, but it's all the other lovely things that you're not notice the Commodores isn't it? It's like the cuddles or getting woken up with a little kiss or whatever. Like stuff that you can't really explain that could happen when you have those like hugs and stuff. Yeah, and she's just hanging out and chatting or like we do some painting together and he plays on the keyboard and like just all the other stuff because it's not loud and noticeable. Yeah, he just can't say that stuff. And I said you'll change your mind one time. No, I'm not I'm not either. I think I have so many younger brothers and sisters and I was very much exactly like similar like 14 When I had when my mom had my little sister and I think for that reason. All of my family like my siblings all had kids like what it was anyway yeah, we've all had kids quite late because I think we would just sort of watch the galaxy like wow that is very intense. Yeah, like never have like loads of kids because we're like no, no, no. Yeah. Follows With us get lost. And I feel like I've got quite a unique voice as in like, I think I've got quite a unique experience of parenthood were actually like a lot when when I was going through my own journey of loss and motherhood, like I found it really, I desperately wanted to find people that had that direct because you know, when you're kind of experiencing it, you're so desperate to find connection, because I desperately wanted to find other people that had that specific experience, like, loss, but yet actually losing your mom when you're pregnant. Because that even before after feels so different, like for me, it was so specific. Yeah. And I couldn't find any, I find it really hard to find that. So I feel that I have quite a sort of unique point of view. And there's quite a big sort of gap. Like, there's definitely a space there. And I feel like when I'm in the right space, and as times moving on, I feel like I've got a lot of stuff to write or join me or some way that I can use that experience creatively. Like as an artist bringing that together, like that experience, and whether that comes through in songs or speaking like, I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I feel like there was there's this there's a story to be told in some way. You know, like, that's how I feel about it. Yeah, yeah. Good on you. Yeah. What's the space? And that's the thing. You could be helping by sharing that in your future, the amount of people that you can be helping through that, because, you know, like you said, it's hard to find people have that, that specific experience, you know, totally. And yeah, and there could be loads, but it's just like, I couldn't find like I was there, like, looking on all these platforms, like asking, you know, grief support group like stuff, you know, and it was, yeah. And there were people that had lost their mom, there were like, groups with that, but there weren't specifically in pregnancy. And I was just like, I just, yeah, it'd be really good to like, hear. And I remember listening to one podcast where there was another singer, actually, who had had that same experience. And it was very intense. And like, yeah, listening to that, but it was it was also really helpful being like, Oh, yes, someone? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, yeah. It's important, isn't it to be to be able to express yourself and, and make those connections? Like, yeah, yeah. And it's so good, what you're doing, like, it's really great, like, made the time and space and like building this thing, because I'm sure it is making a difference to like lots of people. And I think you can leave like, it's so important, isn't it? I guess we're creatives that, you know, yeah. I imagine that for most people. That feeling of your own identity and creativity, and like, you know, grappling with how that exists, and how that CO exists? As a parent, like, yes, it's quite a big thing, isn't it? How that. Yeah. And coexist as well. Yeah, the way you described about that fear of whether you'd get back to the point you were or, you know, remaining in that space, that is a really common thing, like, especially like performers. Yeah, I've really expressed that like, because, you know, when you're, you know, you're building you build relationships with venues or, you know, other bands or whatever, and then you step away from it for for a period of time. And then it's like, you've got to start again, like, maybe someone else is running that venue, and you have the like, or who, who are you and you know, you've got to try and sell yourself again, and just remain relevant. Yeah, there's a lady Georgia fields who I interviewed last year, and she actually runs platform like her Instagram, it's called Finding the mother lode. And her her whole setup is providing resources for moms who are musicians about how to sort of navigate that whole space and how to get back into it all the emotions you're feeling and that sort of stuff. She's really amazing. Yeah, she said the same thing. It's just she thought she had this fear that that part of her life might actually be over. And that was a really horrible thought to have. Yeah, yeah. Because you can't do like, the reality is, life is different. Like you're not the thing is, when you have a kid, like you can't operate at the same, like, life has changed, hasn't it? So it's suddenly you know, you're not going to track up and down the country doing like unpaid gigs, I mean, things are nice. And you're in your 20s, where you're like, building my status as an artist or whatever, like the things that you could do. It's like, you cannot physically do that stuff anymore. Not that I want to do that necessarily. But you know, I'm saying it's like, everything has shifted, so it's like a whole like, how can you still keep building something but then you know, and my husband is like, going on tour in April as well. So then you're always navigating like his staff with my staff and then yeah, it's that's that's the other interesting side of it. dynamics. But yeah, so life has changed. And that's kind of great. And kind of challenging is when it has changed like, yeah, there's nothing you can like. Yeah. Yep. You just got to sort of work through overburdened Yeah. Yeah. And hope that more parents are like speaking about it thank you so much for coming on here though. And it's just been so lovely to chat with you. Oh, no, thank you for having me. It's been really nice to have this chat to it's been really lovely. Yeah, getting to talk about all the stuff that you don't really get to talk about. So it's so nice having someone asking questions about all these things. So thank you. Now it's been a pleasure. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcasts or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom. This thing was done yet though you try so hard those things you won't want to Oh there is inside Combi? Inside distressed distress distressed

1 Diane Kazakis Australian mixed media artist 1 Article # 3 June 2023 I was born in Australia in 1973 and grew up in Melbourne until my late 20’s. Over the past 21 years (has it really been that long?!!!!) I have had the privilege of living in Portugal, Kenya, Oman, Germany and now China. These diverse cultural experiences and environments have been a constant source of inspiration for my work, and have greatly influenced my artistic style and subject matter. I studied Visual Arts in Melbourne, Australia with a major in sculpture and also have a Bachelor of Education, which led me to teach secondary school art. I also worked for an event/art installation company and independently as an artist until my husband and I moved overseas to teach in Portugal in 2002. I thrive on variety and exploring new media. Over the years this has been very much influenced by my location – access to materials, tools, and studio space as we have moved around the world. I often combine different materials and work on varied surfaces, with multiple pieces in progress at the same time, allowing me the flexibility to switch between work depending on the process limitations (drying time etc.) and what I’m in the mood for. I am captivated by the ebb and flow in ecospheres, creating work that is in a state of flux by exploring mediums that have an altered appearance when viewed from different angles. Recent explorations have been with ink and watercolour on canvas, paper and wooden panels. I am fascinated by the natural formation of the media on different surfaces, allowing the colours to puddle and form naturally and then working to enhance certain areas with various layers. I am also exploring a mixture of 2D and 3D art forms utilising layers and negative space. I am mesmerised by how the work changes and creates shadows in different light. My current work is mostly about the representation or suggestion of landscapes – it's more internal, emotional and metaphysical than actual visual responses to what I see before me. I have been working on two series the past couple of years: “Meditative Circles” are ink and acrylic investigations into water surfaces, cells and cross-sections of plants with their intricate patterns and forms. “Earthscapes” are squares of watercolour mounted onto wooden panels which explore the various surfaces of the Earth and its atmosphere from above. My husband works in education and we have moved around for his job in international schools. We have two children - our daughter is 16 and our son is 14. Our daughter was born in Portugal and when she was one month old we moved to Kenya. I was a few months pregnant with our son when we left abruptly in 2007 due to political trouble and when it became dangerous in Nairobi. He was born in Melbourne and when he was 3 weeks old, we moved to Oman….my husband and I like a challenge I guess!!! I don’t really like the term “trailing spouse” as it kind of negates my contribution and value, but ultimately, we selected each of our locations together. We have had to adapt to new environments with our children and learnt to navigate these changes and challenges as a family. We have had some incredible experiences living overseas and as our kids get older, they appreciate the vast exposure to the world that they have already had. It has been difficult to bring up our kids without the support network of family around – especially for our parents not seeing their grandkids grow up as they would have if we had still been living in Australia. I have a wonderful studio at home where I have natural light, fresh air, space and a beautiful view, so I spend a lot of my time there and find it incredibly inspiring. Now that my children are older and more independent, I have a lot more time for my art than in previous years. The big gap in my exhibitions is very much representative of the period where I was more involved in their daily routines. I am more prolific now than I have ever been and spend most of my day in my studio. I try to organise my time so that I have variety in the day - not just creating artwork, but also working on ideas, experimenting, researching, updating my website, online gallery profiles, answering emails, posting on social media, planning workshops etc. "For me it is important that my kids see that I contribute to our family and society with something that I am passionate about." Having moved around a lot I have not had much of an art circle around me. In each new country I have had to re-establish myself by reaching out to galleries, businesses, schools, hotels etc. to set up exhibitions, connections and to create opportunities. I have developed a lot of confidence with this over the years and whilst it is hard to have to keep doing this, it does allow me to present fresh ideas and reach new audiences. I am currently part of a female artist’s network on WeChat where we share achievements and struggles with our art and offer each other support virtually. I have managed to meet up with a couple of these ladies in person but given that we all live in different cities it’s not a regular thing. Being an artist is very solitary and as an introvert, I am quite ok with that! We currently live on a boarding school campus, and I occasionally teach art workshops in and outside of the school which provide opportunities to collaborate. I find that it is quite a good mix for the moment. Because we are a small family in unfamiliar environments, we have spent a lot of time together, so I feel that I have been a very present mother for my kids. When I was growing up, I spent a lot of time with my grandparents and cousins but my kids haven’t had that – I definitely feel guilty about this aspect of choosing to live and bring up a family overseas. From time to time I feel a certain degree of guilt if I have days where I don’t feel like I have achieved much in my studio. I am very fortunate that I am able to do what I love on a daily basis and as such feel driven to achieve and in a sense, justify my work. For me it is important that my kids see that I contribute to our family and society with something that I am passionate about. I have always been very creative with them, and I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity and luxury of being able to stay at home with them in their early years. I was foremost a mum for many years, but always managed to carve out time and space for my artwork. My work has very strong environmental themes and content and this viewpoint is something that I am proud my children have taken on. Both kids are very creative and show an interest in my work. Now that they are older and quite talented themselves, we exchange ideas and give each other suggestions for our artwork. "Not so many years ago I feel that artists who were also mothers were considered hobby artists, but I think that with social media, online galleries and so many digital tools at our fingertips to create art businesses and market our work, things have dramatically changed for female artists." Being an artist, my contribution to our family income is sporadic. Over the years I have had exhibitions where I sell a lot of work, commissions, and other projects. I have also taught art and run workshops in most of the countries we have lived in to supplement my income. But there have also been periods where my income was sparse or non-existent. I find these phases frustrating, but I know that it fluctuates, and I always have something in the pipeline so I know that it is only a matter of time. Over the past few years (perhaps it’s because I am fast approaching the big five-O??!!!) I have been more determined and proactive with marketing my work and creating opportunities – whether that be for setting up exhibitions or collaborations with hotels, spas, or businesses. I find great joy in creating work that is tailored to specific spaces and clients, as it allows me to add value, beauty and atmosphere to their environment. Not so many years ago I feel that artists who were also mothers were considered hobby artists, but I think that with social media, online galleries and so many digital tools at our fingertips to create art businesses and market our work, things have dramatically changed for female artists. Much of this work can be done at home whilst kids are still young, so it has opened up vast opportunities. My mum is a first generation Australian. Her parents immigrated to Australia in the 1950’s from Europe and met on the ship over! The family worked hard to establish themselves in Melbourne and spent their whole lives there. For my mum it was difficult because she had to abide by strict family and cultural rules whist also trying to assimilate into the Australian culture. Many women were pursuing careers in the 70’s with new freedoms available to them to be whatever they wanted to be. My mum was expected to work a little while and marry young – which she did, then she had me when she was 21. Mum and Dad agreed that she would stay at home while my sister and I were young and Dad worked 2 jobs until my sister and I went to school. My mum then went back to work with flexible hours so she was still able to be at home for us when we were there. For me, art is a place to pause – a place to linger in that space where whispers and thoughts can unfold and be heard. It’s a way to be connected to the present moment, much like meditation. I love to share that with people who view my artwork or take part in my workshops. From sweeping landscapes and wispy cloudscapes to microscopic details and figurative harmonies, my work depicts not only the beauty of the natural environment but also draws attention to its fragility and deterioration. My work captures the fragile beauty of nature and draws attention to elements that need protection and regeneration. It urges the viewer to observe the interconnectedness of humans and our planet on the scale from the microscopic to the larger overview, reminding us of our profound need to connect with nature and to ensure it has a greater part in our everyday lives. I am currently working with a cosmetics/skincare company that is featuring my artwork on their product and packaging. We also plan to collaborate on more products in the future. I have worked with hotels and spas to create work which enhances the mood of the spaces by bringing nature inside. I would love to do more of these commissions in similar public and private settings and on a larger scale. Another idea I have been pondering and would like to pursue is to create art and yoga retreats at our home in Portugal – an experience where participants can learn to create art in nature and nourish their creative spirit, body and soul whilst having the opportunity to explore the spectacular Algarve region. Contact Diane Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dianekazakis/ Links with articles, publications, etc.: https://linktr.ee/dartemisia Website: https://dianekazakis.com/ Email: artemiskazakis@gmail.com BACK

Jen Lush South Australian singer/songwriter S1 Ep02 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jen Lush is a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia, A mum of 3, we chat about the shock of becoming a mother in a way she never expected, how her children inspire her and manifest in her art, and how guilt can serve a purpose. **This episode contains discussions about birth trauma, infant illness, grief and postnatal depression** Jen - website Podcast - instagram / website Read The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood by Rachel Power Music used by permission from Jen Lush , Suvome and Cat Bird Dog When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Today, my guest is Jen Lush. She's a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia. Much later, it seemed Welcome to the show. Jen, thank you so much for coming on today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. It's really good to be on the couch having a Yak, I'm obviously quite familiar with you and your work, would you give us a bit of a rundown on who you are, what you do, what you've done in the past, for those who might not be familiar with you and your work? Okay, um, well, I've been practicing some form of art. I feel like probably for most of my life, but I started off in dance and theater. That was the degree that I did at university, and then kind of moved into music at random at the same time as I was at uni, was in my first band before that I'd been singing with my dad and his folk band, ended up touring with that and playing music all over the place for quite a few years. And sort of gradually phased out dance and theater and focus more on music and more in the more recent years. So I kind of do, I suppose, I went from doing electronic music to gradually drifting into more acoustic and folk related stuff that kind of changed sort of ties back into more of the music that I was probably raised listening to. And now I have a band that I'm about to release my second studio album with. But prior to that I've been in various other bands and Duo's and trios and various manifestations over the last 20 years or so. Awesome. I would love to ask you more about your trip hop trio that you were in. Can you first of all save a name? And because I don't want to say it because you get it wrong. And no. Well, it's called survival it was called survive home. A lot of people call it servo may or Salome and weren't really sure. So one of those reasons why you should never call a bear name is a word that actually doesn't exist in your life because people have no idea it's like some travel. You're in Japan and London with you group. Yeah, so we made two albums. We and a couple of singles and things outside of those albums. We we launched those albums in Adelaide, made them in Adelaide and launched them in Adelaide. And then we traveled to by way of Japan. I think we went to live in England at that time. And so we lived and played in England for a few years. And then yeah, and then we kind of gradually brought it to a halt but I think that must have gone on for about maybe 10 years. That was we were heavily inspired by listening a lot to say Portishead Massive Attack. Loads of electronica you know, lamb, you name it all those 90s selectronic Patriot pop stuff, and tricky. There were lots and and so that's kind of where that kind of sprung out of, I suppose. I really love the idea of having very minimal musical back grounds to like in terms of the like, it was often just a drum sample and like a little bass line really. And I love creating music just to those very simple elements. I feel like you know, just making up a song around those things that you're handed, it's pretty fun. Still do a little bit of that with some German dance music producers in Frankfurt, I think they are at the moment I did that when I was in England, and I'm still doing a little bit of it. Now, they still call me up and want me to want me to lay down some ideas. I don't actually perform the final cut of the vocals I get, you know, young, spunky, German people to do that. But I still like to change. So yeah, I like like crossing over with different genres, I think. I think it's kind of a cool thing to, you know, I don't really have a favorite genre, really. So whatever, whatever comes out at the time. So you were in that band with typing lunch, when you guys were obviously married. So how did you guys meet? Was it through music that you met? Initially? No, we met we're not we're pretty young. I was still in school when I met Tobin down at Yankalilla. So his, my parents were I was living at the time was in Yankalilla, and grew up there and went to school there. His parents live out at wiping a beach or on a farm out there. And they're farmers. And he went to school at Victor and then herb ray in town. And we crossed paths at the local drop in center, which was run by the United church youth group. And they would have Friday night and Saturday night activities for wayward young people with nothing to do in a place like Yankalilla and Normanville, where the only thing to do is go and jump off a jetty or sit under the jetty or walk along the jetty or catch them Tommy's off the jetty. Now, there wasn't a lot to do in Yankalilla for young people at that time. And so the church were pretty proactive about getting some activities going. So we'd, you know, I'd meet down there with my friends. And, you know, in between games of table tennis and having a crack on the drum kit, you'd make pancakes or go on an excursion to a local bowling place or something like that. And it was at that place that I met Tobin, who was helping to run it with taking over from his brother at the time, who was getting some training interstate and Tobin took over one time, and he just wandered in. And it was the only person I'd seen in a long time that I didn't know because in small towns like Yankalilla, NAMA Ville, everybody knows everybody. And I decided quite some time before that, that I wasn't going to go out with anyone from my local town. Not just because I was an arrogant I don't know. Aspirational young lady, but also, that I think everyone knows everyone. And I pretty much decided that, that they probably wouldn't like me, and I certainly didn't think I had any kind of future with anybody at my school. And so yeah, he walked in, and I thought, holy crap, who's this? I don't know you. That's an unusual thing in itself. And also, he was incredibly dashing, and kind of dressed like a bit of a punk with these ripped up jeans with the Union Jack sign up behind and these, you know, really high, high laced up docks and messy hair and stuff. And he was working as a farmer on his parents farm for a bit while he was trying to work out what to do. And so we started hanging out. And I think the first thing he said to me was, you want to come and see my skateboard. And you said, that's good. And I spent a lot of time sitting around in car parks watching him do skating while I sort of sat there with my book and had a read and hung out. Yeah. And then he was interested in arts things. And I've always always been interested in arts things. So we spend our weekends, taking photos of crazy stuff, setting up these weird scenarios and taking photos of him and stuff. He got into photography, and then filmmaking and finance so a lot of painting as well. Where I went down the performing arts road that I was already well and truly doing by that stage. Lots and lots of ballet and, and dance and theater and stuff. So I went down that road and he went down he is and we've we've pretty much got together when I was 17. So we've been together a long time. So awesome. That is so great. So you've like you've you've these Two Worlds came together over the skateboard. And then you sort of blossomed with sharing all this art together. Overnight, I thought I was going to be a farmer's wife, I really didn't expect that it was going to end up in this in this very much art driven world that we're both in. So it was lovely, a lovely thing in the end. So when did you sort of start to think, well, we're going to start a family? And did you sort of think then what's going to happen to your music and your art? Like, was that sort of a conscious sort of thing to think, well, how's this gonna fit in? See, yeah, um, we were in England at the time, and I got pregnant without actually realizing I was pregnant. So it wasn't really super planned it was, we had this long view plan that we'd be married for 10 years, and then get home and then start having babies. So it was around about bang on that when we when we did start having babies, but it wasn't because it was through any great planning. It was really just that I had, well, there's a long health kind of scenario. But I was diagnosed with polycystic ovaries some time before this, so maybe six years or five years before I was pregnant. And so I was told that I probably wouldn't find it easy to be pregnant. So I wasn't on any kind of contraception anyway, hadn't been getting periods or anything like that. And then I decided to because I didn't really want to go down the road of fertility treatment eventually, or anything, I thought I'll do some research and through my own, you know, layman's, slightly ignorant researching tactics, I found it, you could buy going on a diabetic diet, a diet that specifically important for people with diabetes is a similar chemistry thing that's going on with insulin hormones and stuff. And so I went on this, I took I put myself on this very strict kind of low GI diet thing. And, and adhere to that for two years. And then my period started all by themselves, and everything seemed to be clockwork. And it was by the second period, I got pregnant. So all by myself. So it was nice to, to try and remedy some of those things going on in my body without real medical intervention, just by trying to change what my habits were around food and stuff. So that was good. So long story short, I was pregnant and not realizing it. My first I thought I was just sick. I just thought I was had the flu, and was constantly throwing up and I thought, I've just got some kind of food poisoning first. And then I thought I had the flu. And then my boobs were getting kind of bigger. And I was like, this is weird. And I took a pregnancy test and, and it came out positive and I was at least 10 weeks pregnant by them. So by the time I had my first scan, I was 15 weeks pregnant. I'd already passed in the first trimester without even realizing. Okay, if you just breeze through it, no worries. Yeah. And so And during that time, I was heavily involved in a theater working in theater and music. I was doing some music stuff as a acoustic duo in England with another guy and also some more electronic music stuff as well. I don't think we're doing survive anymore by that stage. And I was doing a lot of theater work with local theater people in involved in shows and things like that. And I thought that in my in my wisdom that nothing much would change once I'd had a baby I thought I'll just have the baby and then he or she will will be backstage with me while I do this show that I was committed to doing and I'll just feed in between scenes or interval or before and after the show. And then I jumped back on I had this I really did have this as as a as an idea. And no one seems to tell me any any otherwise because no one else I knew was had had babies really I wasn't around a lot of people that had children at that time. I even had agents who were gearing up for me to be cast in roles that needed a mother with a brand new newborn baby so scenes in TV and stuff like that, but I was doing little bits of so I was ready with agents, you know, at my beck and call ready for whenever I was ready to show up and do some baby and mummy kind of things on TV. So it was with a great big shock to me to my system when that went completely Yeah, yeah. And all of my expectations for for myself and my art and my work were utterly changed. The minute he was born. Yep. Did you have him in your in the UK when he hadn't? Are you back in Australia? Yeah, so I was in the UK and he was born at St. Mary's Hospital as Orlando, who's now 16. So 16 years ago, I went into labor, but much like all the women in my, my family, my sister and my mom, turns out that we're not able to deliver babies vaginally, it needs to be a cesarean or nothing. There is no option there need to be less than five pounds in size. But if we're if we're going to do that has something to do with our anatomy. We're all the same. But unfortunately, they like you to go through the process of labor first, just so you can be sure that that's the case. And Orlando was stuck. And I was in pretty dire situation where I nearly didn't make it and neither did he. And there was an emergency and it was it was a mess. It was a complete disaster. To the point where he was diagnosed at six months with cerebral palsy, right hemiplegic cerebral palsy and and was not in an excellent way for quite a while the first year of his life. He was very ill a lot of the time. And we came home. By the time he was three months old. Back to Australia. So we've been here since. So that was a really different different way into motherhood. That's probably what I was hoping. What I expected. And certainly those agents that were calling me soon after he'd been born were given short shrift. And there was no longer going to be any swanning into any kind of TV studios with my new one. Yeah, we're gonna say, Yeah, you did. It wasn't just the change of life for you immediately in terms of your, your art and your work. But also the the challenges involved with Orlando with the, with the issues you were faced with him. So it was this double whammy that you got? Yeah, it was it was terrifying. Never before have I ever since have I been through anything that traumatic. And certainly for him, going through it himself. He was a baby experiencing trauma as well, because that was a very traumatic way for him to start with seizures. And with a range of medical things going on when he was first born. I don't think he was breathing when he was born, either. So there were all kinds of weird things going on in that hospital that night. I remember John Howard just been reelected and watching that on the screen. And I was in this ward with all of these other women who had just had babies and everyone had their babies. And I didn't know he was in intensive care. And I didn't know at that stage what was wrong. I thought that we're going to bring him back down to me in the night because it was very early days. So I'm watching John Howard get reelected. And he wasn't my first choice for for reelection. So I was thinking that's a bit crap. And then about I don't know, two in the morning, maybe a nurse came down and said, I'm really sorry, but we're not going to be able to bring your baby down. He's had a seizure and and he won't be joining you right now. And it was brutal. It was actually brutal the way that I was told that and I couldn't move because I'd had a cesarean and I was unable to actually get out of bed. Oh is when you've had as Aryan that's an emergency. You might have been through this. But it's, it's no joke, is it and you can't move your body is bruised and battered. And it's takes quite some time to heal. So I couldn't Yeah, and that was before the time of me having mobile phone or anything like that. So I couldn't contact over and I couldn't you know, I was just stuck in this room in my babies like three floors above and I just thought this is the pets. So it took about our content minutes for me to maneuver myself gradually to get some help in the morning and get a message to Tobin so it was just a really weird start to motherhood actually. Yeah, absolutely. So I can understand you came back to Australia, you would have had a lot more support here. Your family's here Yeah. Which obviously you needed around you at that time. Yeah. So we did, we came back Tobin's work finished house that we were leasing was over the lease and Orlando was born and not well, so yeah, all the pointers, were saying, go home, go back to Adelaide. And we're all the family was. And and that was the best thing we ever did. It was a wonderful decision. But at the time, it felt really hard, because we invade our life for five years in London. And it was a really strange thing to do, to be unemployed and to be drifting and a bit anxious. But, but, of course, with all the support that we needed here, as new parents, so that was good. And Lando needed to have the services, and it has needed the services that Adelaide can offer. And he's, he's been very well looked after, by by Nobita Children's Services and a range of other therapies that the that are here, and that certainly wouldn't have been able to be accessed in London. So yeah, it was a decision. But it did change everything in terms of art. For me, I stopped everything I did actually try at one point, I vaguely remember contacting an agent here to try and maybe do some part time bits and pieces, which was a folly, it was a folly of an idea, there was no way that I was going to be able to rock up to a casting at six in the morning, or even a shoot at six in the morning, after dropping my child at childcare with people who wouldn't know what to do around his specific needs at that time. None of that was possible anymore. And in the end, I didn't want to anyway, I needed to be at home. And my my job became being a therapist for at least the next full time, or at least the next five years. You know, it was spent doing that. Yeah. So throughout this time, did you find that you you got the support that you needed yourself? Like you talked about Orlando having the support with the different services? Did you? Did you find that you were supported? In all the ways that you needed to be? That's a good question, Allison, I I have to admit that. Probably not. So fortunately, you know, I'd had 10 years of relationship with Tobin that was solid. And if that hadn't been the case, I think we would have been in a bit of trouble, I recommend that part of it saved me. And the family around us was also vitally important at that time. I've got sister and brother and Tobin's got a brother here too. So it was very much a family. thing, but there was a lot of grief going on at the time. And I think that psychologically, I probably could have done with some outside help. Now, if that had happened, I think I'd be calling up the closest counselor and getting because I've since had counseling and found it to be incredibly useful for other things, you know, at that time, for some reason, it just wasn't. So something that came up. I remember having a massage though, back in England, before we even made it back here I had a massage with a friend who's a therapist, and she said, I think you're I think you need to have a massage and I'm going to I'm going to get stuck in. So lie down on the bed and get going. And so she started and and this is probably one of the single most revealing things to me about where I was at at the time, and probably where I was still at for quite a while. And she started to massage me and there's something about trauma being sort of locked in the body. It's a visceral, physical thing. It's not just the heart thing or head thing or whatever. And this became really clear to me she started messaging me and I started to feel nauseous. I thought I was going to vomit through the hole that my face was in. I thought oh, I'm in danger of being sick, I'm going to be sick and I started to sort of shake and I thought no, I can't be here anymore. I can't be here and I started to have a bit of a panic because I think she was starting to kind of get into some spaces and unlocked some things and and I said I've got to go I've got to go and I could feel my it'll kind of building up behind my eyes and my head this force that I didn't know what was going to happen. And she said okay, and I just ran off and I ran into the bathroom and I fell on the floor and I'm not one for sitting on floors of bathrooms even the cleanest and it was a clean bathroom. But it's not really my my game But I remember falling on the ground. And I remember, the noise that came out to me was like an animal. And it was kind of like a, like a scream, roar. thing. And I wanted to be quiet because I didn't want to hurt it, you know, here in the household to be disturbed where I was, but um, yeah, out it came this great, great big noise. Yeah. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of grief. You know, I've, I've since read lots of things about this. And I remember one at the time reading, when I learned it was about one. And I'm reading this thing about the analogy of somebody going on a plane to go on a holiday in your pack, and you're preparing, you get organized. And you know, where you're going, and you're excited, you look forward to the food that you're going to try. And you think about the weather that you're going to get there. And you maybe you've booked a beautiful place to stay, and there might be a pool, and you know, and you're planning all of these lovely experiences. And then halfway through the trip, the pilot says I'm sorry, but we're actually going to be landing in somewhere else, maybe, you know, as Becca Stan, or something like this, where you've never been in certainly wasn't what you were planning on. And you land and everyone's in shock. And they're saying, When are we going to leave? When are we going to leave? You know, we should be able to make an X flight out of here, you know, but then they say, No, I'm afraid this is this is actually where you are. And you need to look around and find somewhere to eat and find some accommodation and get sorted. And, you know, the analogy is clear, you know, you you end up in another country. That's what it was like. And you think this is not what I it's not what I planned, and it's not what I wanted, and it's it's scary. And it's strange, and I don't I don't know the language. And I was out I was without all the resources. I haven't had anything to do with disability before this happened. And I was terrified of it. What it did do, you know, inevitably, is that once you look around the country, and you actually start meeting some amazing people, and you think, Gosh, these people are incredible. And this has been here all along. And you know, why didn't I think of coming here before and the food's not so bad. And you know, and that's exactly what happened to the community of people in the disability sector are incredible. And I met many other children who are going through far more than Orlando who's actually got quite a mild disability with his CP. And I have enormous respect and compassion and joy when I'm around those people. And I didn't believe that I would ever experience such an incredible level of, of admiration and love for this world that I'm in now, and we have been for a long time. And yeah, I wouldn't actually want it to be any different. I would like it to be different for him, because he experiences hardship. But I, I, for myself, I'm a very different person. And the person that I was where I was up to my eyeballs in my own performing, singing, dancing world of, of what can be a very consuming and very narcissistic environment, sometimes in the performing arts changed everything. It changed everything. Yeah, you can't be the same person. Yeah, absolutely. That's so profound. So honest, and sharing that so so eloquently Janet's incredible period of your life, as the years sort of went on. Did you find yourself then perhaps thinking about maybe returning to performing or did you even start writing or journaling or anything? To even to help cope with things? I don't know? Did you return to art new music? Yeah, yeah, I did. And the only thing that kind of was able to be like that held on I suppose throughout all of that stuff was music. Because I was able to write words. In the evening or at night, I was able to, by the time Orlando was about one and a half I was probably meeting up with a friend who had recorded some of the earliest survive stuff as a as an engineer. I knew he played guitar and I had really lost a lot of contacts in this town, as far as music goes. And so I just called him up and said, Do you want to jam on some of the stuff I'm writing? I've been I've been writing. So I did so probably once a week or once a fortnight I'd I'd do just go around to his house and we'd muck around on some songs. It eventually became the band, cat dog bird, which I was doing for 10 years. really, from beginning to end, it was about 10 years where we were pretty regularly rehearsing and performing various venues and festivals around South Australia. And that was the thread. That was the thing that kind of got me back in. And it was it was a bit of a turnaround for writing, as well, because I hadn't really been writing my lyrics at the time. When we were in survival. It was it was Tobin writing the words, I didn't do any of the writing, even though Creative Writing was always my favorite thing. At school, and whatever it wasn't, I didn't have the confidence or something. And I didn't feel I had anything much to say maybe as well. But certainly, and I know, one of your questions probably pertains to one of your questions anyway. But I think I think I suddenly had a lot to say about a lot of things actually not just about mothering or the issues of the heart. But just about the environment I was in and as soon as you bring somebody into the world, you're very, very aware of the world that they're going into, in its really acutely different way, I think. Yeah, absolutely. You safely say things in in different ways. You never realized things with whether you were looking at something but you never saw it in that way. Then all of a sudden, you put on a different pair of sunglasses, and you know, everything looks different and feels different. And yeah, absolutely. When you when you got back into doing the work with cat dog good, how old was all end up at that stage? I think I think it was about one and a half when I started venturing out into that. Yeah, I guess. Obviously Tobin would have been, would have taken the lead with caring for Orlando when you were doing this, and that must work always. Always in the night. So I was he was asleep. I'd go off and I'll come back, you know, after a couple of hours. And and that carried on for for many, for years, really? And yeah, if there was any performances and things and yes, Tobin was always the person that would hold the fort for everybody, particularly as more children came along, that became obviously more of a thing. Yeah. So tell me about your, the rest of your family. So I've got a rider who's now 14. And he. He's a very dedicated artist himself. They all are actually all three of them. They're very much into their own things, mainly writing and drawing. And making, but also some music as well. And I've got IV as well, who was born in 2009. So she's 12. And she's, yeah, she's great. She's right into piano, playing really, and a lot of crafty Makey things. She's She's into that and creative writing as well. So, yeah, they're all busy little boards. Now. They're all busy doing their own lovely making, and brings me a lot of joy to and actually inspires me a lot. They're very disciplined. Yeah. And you're not I wouldn't have been at their age No way. Better now, but not not. Let's go so may have mentioned or your children, I want to bring in the question that I always like to ask my interviewees about, do you feel that it's important for you, for your children to say what you're doing yourself away from being the mum, but also being Jen, the performer, the singer? Is that important for you for your kids to recognize that and to, I guess, value that and see the importance of what you're doing? Yeah, I think so. I think I think it's good if as a as a parent, that you can reveal something about your world that that makes you passionate. You know, I think it's important that children can see their parents in, in many colors as many colors as possible. Because you're the real people, you know, and I think children are necessarily self involved, they have to be that's exactly what they need to be and they are until they're 20, I guess around that round about that 20 age, you know, where we're actually be a bit younger than that, but around 20 is when they, their brains are really finished knitting together and and then looking out wood and separately, you know, forging their identities very much separately to the family. But certainly up until about be and I think it's important if they if they know that there are other things going on, not just what we are doing as parents to support them in their work. holds in making sure they're comfortable and safe and loved. But if they can see that there's other things that they need to be mindful of, and I think it's in everybody's best interest, I think there would possibly have been plenty of occasions where I may have really struggled, I think, to parent the way I want to parent to be the person I want to be for them, if I didn't have other things going on. And I think it is a benefit to them to know that those things are there. They can be mindful of them, they can try and understand them. It's not something to talk about. It's something that's that it's that connects to their world, and is intrinsic to their development, too. But I also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about, I think it's good if they can see that those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are, because I do believe everyone has an artist within them. Somewhere, you know, someone who wants to express themselves in some way or another creatively, because I believe we're all creative. Everyone is what people think they're not. But I think that's just because they haven't understood how they connect to that part of themselves. And it doesn't need to be something that I do for work, but but just the way that they live, the choices that they make and the way that they execute their ordinary day. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen. So my husband, who still paints, still makes films and still is involved in art in many, in many ways, musically, as well, still, that I think they have from an early age our kids anyway have have cottoned on to the idea that it's not only such an option, it's, you know, it's not just a boredom, filler, it's, it could be something that keeps you steady for the whole of your life. It's a mental health issue, actually. Yeah, that's so true. And I think when you talk about the options, like I think the kids are so drilled into them, they've got to you've got to go get a job you got to do you need got to do this and that and by showing them that you can actually your passion can actually be the thing that you do every day of your life is funny, that's an awesome thing to show them. And your children are quite involved in your art you've had I think it was in a film clip, was she sure. What's the word mind? You're sort of one of your songs? Yes, she she was given at the time. Yeah, and you've also had your latest track it's just come out you've got I think it'd be for all the children in the music video will just run just for one year his his friends, The Seagull and the seagull which is a beautiful beautiful track I'm gonna put a link to that if you don't mind in the stunning it is just beautiful. And the film the music video is just a beautiful sensation. So much you know, we worked we worked hard on many of those elements but some of those things we weren't really sure how they were going to marry together until until you actually start to build it so there's a number of chance elements that kind of come into making something like that but I feel like the video does a lot of justice to the to the music in this case. So that was Ryder involved in that but Orlando's now set to somehow appear in one of the future videos he's got ideas about what that should look like. Where we're negotiating at the moment that's exciting busy drawing a lot of he's doing a lot of illustrations for merch that will be coming out soon so he's he's right drawing is one of his his favorite skills and so he's he's busy working on some merch for us which will be fun. Oh, that's awesome, man. It's so lovely to get the stone on today this concept that the media and social media throws around of the Mum guilt? I'll put it in inverted commas. What's your take on that? How do you feel about that whole concept? It's an interesting one. And isn't it? I think I think that perhaps the minute you have a newborn baby in your arms, I think there's a certain instinctive kind of guilt that weaves itself to you. At the same time, I feel like along with responsibility and needing to give yourself fully to another being in a way that you've never had to before. I think that is one of the flip sides of that. I don't know that it's easy to escape that feeling of whatever you like, I feel like, you know, it's so easy for me to tap into, it's one of those scarily close things that keeps company with me, the idea that I could let someone down so easily, that my choices might impact on somebody so easily and so deeply. Without me even trying, it's because we're human, where we're built to not, not win all the time, we're often going to fail, we're going to make the wrong decisions, we're going to hurt people, I think its inherent in the human condition, we're imperfect. And so depending on what level of expectation you put on upon yourself, would sort of correspond to the amount of guilt you feel around, around around those things. And a lot of that's perceived stuff, some of it's not even true or real, what we think we might be doing to damage our children, you know, possibly isn't even isn't even there in the first place, we have massive capacity as humans to invent, you know, scenarios that we can feel guilty about, I think the Catholic Church did a really good job of harvesting the, the natural tendencies that humans have, and providing them with a place that they can discuss this alleviate their this guilt that they have. And as a mother, I think, you know, it's in tenfold, because I think you're constantly faced with choices and decisions to make that are going to, either positively or negatively impact the balance of the family of one child and or another or, you know, and I feel like you're constantly weighing those things up. And for me, guilt is a very present thing, I, I struggle with that a bit. So now than I did, when I was first a parent, I feel like I don't feel like guilty is a very useful space to be in, I feel like it. It informs things and I think it serves a purpose, often to make you consider and weigh up what's going on, perhaps if you didn't have that you just go full throttle into whatever it was that hedonistic desires, it's sort of it holds you up for a moment just to check yourself, I suppose just give you that little in the ear, like, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And perhaps the the point of that is then to listen to what that is saying and decide whether that is real, a real concern or whether it is coming from somewhere else. And when I say coming from somewhere else, I mean, the voices in your ears that to other people, or other sort of societal things, saying, oh, you know, women have got many of them, many more than men, I would say about why we should be doing this or that or the other. We have, you know, other generations of women who, you know, well, meaning as they might be, might say things like, oh, but you know, wouldn't, wouldn't it be better if it was the mum, you know, staying with them? Or Wouldn't it be better if, you know, it's, you know, really your job to do that not the babysitter or not the husband or, or there might be other well meaning voices that you know, say are but you can go back to work, but really, it's, you know, it's better to be at home or, you know, you've only got a few years and, you know, so you've got a lot of those voices, I think and depending on what your own mother did, well, your own grandmother's did around mothering there's there's no shortage of voices that might speak into what you feel you'd like to do. And so I've had plenty of guilt laid on me externally, for choosing to go and perform or staying up late at night doing a show and coming back, possibly tired the next day or things like that. Or even just pursuing, you know, something that you're passionate about. So pursuing doggedly, this vision to communicate through music, you know, what a thing. You know, there's such a lot of beauty around that, but, but strangely, it can be twisted to make it seem like the most selfish pursuits. You know, what are you doing that for? What's the point in that? And I do have a few voices that come to me from that direction as well. And over the years have have made me you know, pull up short, hang on what it what is that about? What does that mean? Is it something to listen to? Or is it just that person's own experience of life and, you know, being imposed upon me, my own mum has never made me feel anything other than supported for making art. She's been incredible in that way. And I think if that hadn't been the case, I might have drowned in I might have, like, a lot of women of my age, who suddenly dropped off the face of the earth as far as music and making and other art forms can go, if I didn't have such a supportive mum, who has never, to my memory made me feel at all, like I should be doing something else, even making money or something like that. She's never made me feel less for choosing those things. And she's just been happy to jump in and babysit or offer, you know, she's even offered to support me financially, you know, at different times when, when there's just no money coming in. Not that I've taken her up on those things, I think we've always sort of managed somehow. But I think that I think that was a really important part of it. Absolutely, because you could, you could see how differently it could have been, if we didn't have that spot in there, like you said, you know, just yet, Jen lash would have wandered off into the nevernever. And, yeah, that's so important. I want to bring in now, this this amazing book that you recommended to me, by North col Rachel power, and it's called the divided heart, art and motherhood. And it's like someone has FM's everything that you've ever thought in your whole life about creating and being a mother. It's like, the feelings and the emotions associated. But no one really talks about it, no one makes you feel okay about feeling the way that you do. And there's a quote that I just want to read from her that really stuck with me. It's, it's she's written that writing became his single act of independence. And when I read that, I just went, Oh, you're not kidding. Like, it's like, your whole life and your whole world exists for this one being. And yeah, you grapple with the things that you still had left from your previous life, it seemed perfectly to you for what you're interested in pursuing and talking about with people, it seemed like a perfect document. Absolutely insane. And I'll put a link to that book in the description, too. For anyone else who's interested. I agree that it's an extremely affirming thing to read it as a person who's doing I think it's important to note that making a choice to be an artist, anyway, is a really difficult decision to make in a way, but it's one that doesn't feel like a choice as well, like I don't actually feel compelled to do many other things I've always been compelled to do to make and I will, I will continue to do that. Even when, you know, I'm not putting anything out publicly, if ever, you know, it comes up, I'll still be compelled to make I'm sure of it. There's just totally there has always been there. And so it's that to make a choice to to be an artist. Whatever gender you identify as, I think it's a difficult decision. It's a road that is not well traveled, it's often fraught with issues don't really get a lot of financial reward necessarily for it. So you sometimes have to balance other work and other things with it trying to make it work. As a woman, I think it's it's another whole layer of of complexity. And I love that these women who are speaking in this book, are acknowledging that difficulty, you know, the fact that they are compelled to do this, this is the vocation they've chosen this is that this is what they're doing, whether they're making money from it or not. but also trying to do all the other things that they're trying to do as well, which don't necessarily enter into the complexity around being a male artist is a really interesting thing to read about. And as a woman who's also going through similar things, I found it an incredibly affirming document. And, like you said, spoke to things that might be considered negative emotions or whatever, as well as positive things in a way that was so real, and you can just identify with it. There's a wonderful poem by Kate Kennedy. And she, she's in the book as well. She's one of my favorite writers. And she, she wrote a poem, which I now can't think of the name of right now. I'll have a little Google and I'll let you know in a minute. It's in her book, the taste of river water. And she writes, a lot of that poetry collection is around motherhood, and being a writer. And I, oh, no, it's called it's called the Zen master have to suddenly remembered and I read that poem, that she thing and also her writing about what it is to try and write while you've got a toddler underneath trying to drag you to come outside and play and do these things. You're like, No, I just need to finish this. I've got to get this finish. And I just, yeah, it just had a real emotional impact upon me reading that. So Jen, do you find that your children pop up in your work at current work, or you're really influenced by them at the moment that the kids your kids actually end up featuring in quite a lot of the songs? And on this new album? I reckon they're probably in two or three of the songs, actually. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because that's a big part of, of my life, and they are a massive part of it. And you know, not necessarily talking directly about them, but about, you know, the impact that they have on, on me or on a situation or seen there's one about glass where, you know, I feel like I want to, it's called Glass and I feel like I often look at them at every stage that they've been at, and want to kind of shrink wrap them as they are, they're hilarious, or that little jumper that you never, ever want them to grow out, or, you know, all the funny things they say, or the little list they speak with, or, you know, just the interactions that they have, or that kind of thing, but each stage is is unique and special and funny and beautiful in its own regard. And also hard and challenging, too. But, um, you know, and so, this song is about impermanence. It's about that shifting, that constant shifting, that I noticed daily as a mother, and there's nothing more evident than the shifting of time is when you're looking at your children, because they're the ones that are constantly changing. You know, I think I've got lots of friends who don't have children. And I think for me, they almost remain ageless. Because I don't notice time passing when I'm with them. But when I'm around, like, my friends with children, we're like, holy crap, look at these kids. They used to be this small and now they try it, you know, and it's, it's a it's a real thing, you know, and I and I do, I do love the different stages, but I do I'm a very aware of the impermanence of this, of that shift of things that are that are not going to remain. So yeah, there's, there's a, there's a bunch of references in his new work that come come from them and actually directly so I did want to say that because when we talk about the impact of motherhood on art, probably what I wasn't expecting was was how much of an inspiration or you know, around content, the things that I feel like I want to write about, is quite frequently inspired by by them too, so far from being a pull on, on my creative processes there actually end up being integral to it in many ways. Hi, remember when you came down and you played at the watershed in Glencoe a couple of years ago? Yeah. And you played a song called Wolf? Yeah. And that song has, it's like it's set off this little. It planted a seed in my mind. The song it's about postnatal depression, and added a seed in my mind, which has now turned into I'm making an album. Um, I'm halfway, probably halfway through it. Yeah. And it's cold war. And it's about my post now depression, say, oh my never told you that. Oh, that's, that's really incredible and very moving to here and a very exciting to hear as well, I'd been wanting to write about it for so long, but I didn't quite know how it would sound. And then when I heard that song, and I thought I can I can share these songs in a way that our listeners will I suppose it's my pleasure, that's what, that's what the power of of sharing your work is about? I think you know, because quite often you could I could happily sit in my bedroom and just write and write and write and make and make and make and there's a part of me that doesn't feel necessarily compelled to share, share it, because I'm already doing the thing that I'm happy with. But there is there is a part of me that that says, Well, you know, this is this is also for sharing this is also for communicating with others something there's a desire within within us all, I think is to be understood and to communicate and is a brilliant conduit for communication. And even I studied dance and theater and I carried on doing that for quite a long time, I found that music was the most direct form of communication that I ended up wanting to settle into, even though it wasn't really my training area at all. And I think with with making songs like Wolf, there is a desire to capture something about the real stories, the real stories that are happening, you know, in motherhood, and it's not always, not always the Easy, easy ones to ride. I remember thinking that that one, I wanted to try and understand it for, you know, somebody close to me who was going through that, and, and trying to find ways of doing it. And then I remember thinking that a lighter musical treatment, over quite heavy words, was probably going to be the best conduit for this particular song. And I've actually use that a lot in my music, this idea of a lighter musical treatment, something that doesn't necessarily mirror the seriousness of the of the lyric can sometimes be that juxtaposition that's needed other times No, but certainly with some songs, I think that's, that can be a nice trick to get people to, to not be too bogged down in and yet still hear, you know, because you want to be heard. That's the thing that's most important, I think. Absolutely. I love how you articulate that. I guess I can ask you Is there anything else that you'd like to share around this topic that you feel like we might not have covered that's important to you, I think this is a really important subject, it doesn't ever become less important because we need to be talking about how it is to be women in art, and the layer extra layer of mothering in art, and making time carving out space for that very, very special and important part of your life, as an artist, as a woman is, is vital. And my when I'm thinking of a tune, and I'm working on a piece of song, and I use that voice memo in my iPhone, it is probably 60% of it. Now back when I was smaller, it would have been 99% of it is full of them bursting into the space with a question or something that was needed the wear of the washing machine in the background. And I'd be sending bits of samples of songs that I was writing to the rest of the band and I've been, you know, littered with interruptions and, and funny little squeaking voices coming out. I can remember wanting to spend maybe 20 minutes and I got very good at being efficient with my time. That's one thing I will say is that as a mother, I think you know, this idea that you need to be inspired and wait for the muse to come and sit on your shoulder or you need to sit in some beautiful, picturesque, you know, space in the studio in the middle of a field until you know, and that's the conditions that you can write under. No, no. I think I would never have made a single thing you know. So I'm excited much because I can just totally relate to what you saved in. I would say I'm going just for 20 minutes into my room. I had a sliding door so it wasn't even a door I could shoot a lot. It was a sliding door. And I said I'm just gonna go in this was when I made the night's insomnia. I said I'm just going to go in there I need to work on something 20 minutes I've got something in my head I need to resolve and I just need to record it and then I'll be able to remember it and then I'll be able to get back to whatever it was I was doing with you. So I'm just gonna go for 20 minutes And I know just the timing is perfect, seriously? Yeah. The little dot, the hands I've worked out could slide that door open, and then in a trot, and I'd be in the middle of recording and you know, I'm just wondering, I'm just wondering, and why they'd go and it would be short. And I'd be answering questions while still singing. It was just, it was remarkable. I still have some of those on my phone. And another thing that happened was when I was recording the cat dog bird album back in 2000. Well, forever, really, but it was released around 2014. And 15. IV was a baby, when we were recording some of the tracks. I remember her being six months old and sitting in a bouncer thing. And I was in the studio recording. And I remember her crying, and then I needed to breastfeed, and you know, and it was. And I remember, most of the men in that room that were there, you know, working on the recording with me, was slightly peeved. I think at the time, the noise, the disruption, the needing to stop and start. And it was only some years later when one of those men that I was working with had his own children. And he came back to me and he said, I keep thinking about when you had baby IV in the studio, and you were trying to record and no one was really all that patient with you. And that would have been a really hard thing to do. And now I've got my own girls, I kind of think that was a pretty extraordinary thing that you were carving out that time for that to happen. And that album wouldn't have been able to happen if I hadn't said no, this is a priority. I know that this is not ideal for her, she'd probably rather be at home. And it's probably not ideal for me, I'd probably rather not be needing to breastfeed or, you know, console her or, you know, get her to sleep while I do the next take or whatever. But we must make. Yep, we must. We must keep going. You know. And I think I hope that I hope that the kids as they get older, understand that making time for that to happen. Whether it be the boys seeing that that's a woman making time for that to happen, whether it's five in understanding that she must make time for that to happen in whatever way. But that's hopefully one of the gifts that that we as mothers can actually give our kids. Now when I'm recording their tiptoe around, they'll say Are you recording as they're coming up the stairs? And okay, yes. They're really quiet. And they've worked it out now. And they're incredibly generous with that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Before I let you go, can you tell us what you've got coming up. So coming up, I've got a new album coming out. It's due out on August the 20th. We're going to be performing at the Goodwood Institute, which is in Goodwood on Goodwood road 7pm. And the tickets you can get on, try booking. And just before that on the 24th of July, we have a collaboration kind of session, the meal was part of the umbrella music festival. And it's going to be a three way conversation, really where I'm going to try and tie together all the different collaborations I do, whether it be the songwriting or do with children, at kindergarten, I'm going to share some of those and then have a bit of a co write with the people in the room. I'm going to talk about the collaboration I do with poets do a lot of work with poets around Australia. And so I'm going to talk a little bit about that process. And then finally, we'll be sharing some of the songs that we'll be featuring on this new album. So that's tickets through Eventbrite for that one, and that's at the meal on the 24th of July. So there's a couple of shows coming and of course there's new singles coming out in the lead up to all of this that's kind of on YouTube or Spotify or all of the platforms really do bots on underwater. On one bots day and dry above the time. They more than oxygen stay alive. curdle, six to eight you can watch the going on I'm so thrilled to find sponsors. Thank you for being on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure and an honor to talk to you. Thank you. It's just been so lovely to chat. I feel like times just disappeared and it's been really lovely to be. Yeah, reflecting on some of these things. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with the Nazi stickman. Can you

Adam Page South Australian saxophonist and composer S1 Ep10 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts To mark Father's Day here in the Southern Hemisphere I share 3 special episodes where I chat to 3 creative dads to get their take on things, how they continue to make music while being hands on dads. In this final of 3 special episodes, I chat with saxophonist, multi instrumentals and composer Adam Page who is a dad of 2 from Adelaide South Australia, Adam talks about the decision he made before even having a child about how his career would change, the struggle of being an artist during lockdown and how to manage being in a creative funk. Connect with Adam here Adam's youtube Adam's faceboook page Purchase Adam's music here Adam's music used with permission Connect with the podcast here When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks for coming on today. Adam. It's a pleasure to have you join on this very special episode. I am stoked. It's I think it's important to to open up these conversations. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So can you tell us about your connection with music, how you got into playing and all the amazing things that you've done over the years? All right, well, how long have you got that look, I first got into music fully, I guess in Mount Gambier when I was a student at at Grant High School. And that kind of led on to coming up to Adelaide to to study jazz and as a saxophonist, and from that point, I kind of I don't know, I just, I just sat back and and let the you know, let the music guide where I was going. And I've done all kinds of things in my life since then, musically from spending three and a half years on cruise ships. playing in the orchestra is on ships to you know, touring with with bands around around the country and around the world and playing in make millions of recordings and as I guess a freelance saxophonist, but also a lot of writing as well heaps of writing for small ensembles and larger ensembles. Currently, I'm I'm writing for the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and have done multiple times in the last few years. I've written major works for New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and orchestra Wellington as well. I've traveled the world with my multi instrumental looping, improvised show. Yeah, I don't know like heaps, heaps and heaps and heaps of stuff. And this. This stuff happened. I mean, you know, a lot of it happened before I was a father. But there's still yeah, there's still a lot of it that still exists. Just, it just it just looks a little different now. Yeah, for sure. So you said multi instrumentalist? How many instruments can you play? Well, I own a lot more than I can play. But I mean, I guess the woodwinds are my first go to so you know, all of the saxophones clarinet, flute. Other flutes like Native American flute and Bansuri. But then, you know, piano has always been a big part of my, my sort of creativity. And the tools for writing sort of come from the piano. I play guitar, bass, drums and percussion. Yeah, and other bits and pieces. We add instruments from around the world. But yeah, I guess you know, I call myself a multi instrumentalist, but you know, I'm, I'm a saxophone player first. So you just you have a passion for just, like trying out new things and just seeing what happens and finding new ways to do things. Yeah, I do. I do because I mean, you know musics music and, you know, the, the fundamentals of music remain no matter what instrument you play in. So like I, you know, I play drums. Like, I play the saxophone, I play, you know, the nose flute, in the same way that I was, I would play the bass. It's just, you know, it's the same music but just a different different technique and a different a different voice that you're using. But inside it's still the same, the same music. Let's go and you went to New Zealand recently I saw on your Instagram. I did. And that was pretty lucky. I'd been working on a on a saxophone concerto that was that was written for me that I'd collaborated with as well in the composition process and you So I've been working on it for a long time. And I got to a point where it was was ready. And I was ready to go over and work with this orchestra and you know, do the performance and a recording as well. And then, you know, some, some some COVID business was starting to drop around the place. And I luckily, I got over, you know, before anything happened. And while I was over there, the Victorian outbreak sort of happened. And I luckily changed my flights earlier to go through Auckland in Adelaide rather than Melbourne. If I'd gone through Melbourne, I would have yet I would have been stuck. But yeah, I got back a day before locked down in South Australia. So I'm very lucky, I got it down. Because I think, you know, I mean, I'm just so used to cancellations. Now the last 18 months has just been just one projects lost after another. And I've got used to that kind of dynamic that it creates creatively. But if this if this show was canceled, I would have been pretty gutted. It's like an emotional roller coaster isn't it really is really tough. And, you know, the deeper we get into this, you know, like I'm understanding more and more about my, my creative process and what, what I need and what keeps me buoyant. And a lot of a lot of these sorts of situations that are occurring around us. In a lot of ways, they're kind of they're sort of drowning my my normally buoyant kind of attitudes and and my direction that I normally kind of take so and that's just purely because we can't, you know, we can't dream money we can dream it we can't fully turn those dreams into, into a reality without all of this uncertainty is attached to it. So it's yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, for sure. It's like, you want to have ideas and goals and dreams, but you're sort of like, well, what's the point? Because it's not going to happen anyway, like, you feel that it's crushed before? Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying not to get to that point of like, what's the point? Because because the you know, in so many ways, the point is, it's not in the delivery, it's in the creation. And I hear, but it's hard, though, it's hard. Because, you know, you've taken you take away one fundamental part of the, of the project, which is the delivery. And it's very hard to stay focused. Without letting that that idea of, of uncertainty creep in, you know, it does definitely affect affect the creation effect ever every level of it. Really? Yeah, absolutely. Have you been able to do much like work online with your music, or you found other ways to be able to look back in the, like, you know, the first sort of wave, I guess you could call it I did a few online performances, which went really, really well. Like, I was surprised, actually, that the community that that kind of, you know, opted in was super supportive. And, you know, I could I could see the comment thread just going crazy while I was performing and it was just, it was just really nice. I'm, I'm planning on doing another couple of those in the in the coming weeks as well. Just like basically for my my friends over in New South Wales and Victoria and just to give them something to consume. But aside from that, I've been really lucky that I've had some I've had some composition projects that have really kept me and kept me going with with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and, and also some other, you know, work with with a small ensemble, the Ben Todd quartet, with Ben Todd, who's a drummer Paul white and James Marlowe and that those two projects have really kind of kept me kept me going. Yeah, but it's it's hard. So you mentioned a little bit before, before you had two kids. What did you music life look like at that stage where you're doing it full time? Oh, yeah. It's there. You know, there's, there's no doubt that once you have kids, the, you know, that changes, you know, and for me, I, I kind of made a made a decision before we had our first daughter that my life was going to change. Okay, and so what what I had in the past will not, I will never have that again. And that that led to me really thinking about priorities and this at this moment in my life, like what is important, and it really like, I mean, it was it was just so clear that the most important part of my life right now is is, is my family and creating those those irreversibly positive relationships with my, with my children and with my partner as well. And so, yeah, everything changed. I was doing so much stuff, creatively, and I was definitely absolutely in control of my day of my week of my hour, there was a point before we had kids, where, you know, there was quite a while where I would on a Sunday night. Look at my week, and I printed out these calendars with, you know, from from 5am to midnight, basically. And I would, I would schedule everything that was happening in the week, and I will just sit there for an hour or so on a Sunday night and, and just put it all in including, like hangtime, including breaks, including just like, Okay, so on Thursday, I'm doing nothing. And then and I'll just let it happen. And so you know, I'm I go to the art gallery, I might go for a swim or whatever, you know, Thursday's Friday, but then all of the other days, I would like totally just go like, right, this is best case scenario. And then, you know, I'd you know, on Monday night, I would, I would look at it and go see what's happening Tuesday and go like Anna looks cool, or I could change this change that. So it was a very, very productive. Incredibly, and then when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent, if you are completely into the next few years being, you know, in a state of creative upheaval, if you commit to that, then you know, it, it changes it changes everything, you know, you can't it's not possible to, to have those those sorts of positive relationships without making sacrifices. And, you know, and I hope I'm not sounding negative here, like, because I I'm very positive about and I'm very happy about the choices I make, because will have made and continue to make because I have had, you know, I've had discussions with with people who have gone the other way where they have followed the path of their career and their and their music or their art. And it's, it's caused the, you know, the downfall of their family. And that's, that's, that's long term. Okay. That's, that's an absolute long term thing that everybody regrets, I'm sure. And so, so yeah, it's, it's, I don't know, I've just gone I'm going around in so many circles here in different different directions. But you know, what I'm saying like, you've just got to make those sacrifices for the good of your, of your, of your village, you know, of that, that beautiful thing that we call family? Or? Let's see. Yeah, so you had you had a conscious think about it, I suppose, of what what your life was gonna look like and made a decision for yourself. But But can I if I can add to that, yeah. We also with with my partner, Georgia, like, we had really fantastic conversations about my career and about my art and about what I need, because my needs are very clear, like I need to be creating I need to be doing something musically. And, and the importance of that and so, you know, the conversation just even having a conversation about the importance of art of music and being creative in my life. actually gave me more room to to step away from that for a while and know that when the time was right, I can I can commit to it again, I can just go straight back into it. So and and it was funny because in the first you know, in her first year of life, I wrote basically 90 minutes of orchestral music for this concert and I had, I have no memory of writing it. Like, I don't know how I did it, but we made it work. And there was a bunch of projects that happened in that, you know, in those first kind of couple of years, because it's like, we had these conversations, we were totally open about what, you know what I wanted to do, but, but most importantly, what I was capable of first, firstly, as a, as a, as a musician, as an artist, but then secondly, as a father, you know, like, so it's a constant balance between the two, and, you know, short trips out of balance, sometimes, sometimes I'm way too busy. And, you know, I'm relying too much on on family and, and, you know, George's parents and, you know, to kind of, you know, give us a bit of help, but, but then other times, I find that man, I haven't picked up my horn in two weeks, you know, yeah, but it's just constantly constantly kind of in flux are out communication is key, all because, you know, like, one, kind of, you know, 30 minute conversation can make the next six months, like, so much easier, because you're honest about your needs. And you're honest about about the capabilities, that you have to be able to kind of get to the finish line with these with the projects, but, but at the same time, it's like you, you start that dialogue around, around how it's going to affect the family, because, because that's the big change. Now, it's not just about me, you know, like, I, you know, with my partner, we, you know, she used to love it, when I went away, when I did, because I said a lot of international touring a lot, a lot of touring around the place, and she'd be like, awesome, I've got some time to myself, it's fantastic. And I used to love being away as well, it's just so fun, so fantastic. And, but then all of a sudden, it's just like, it's no longer about, like me, it's like, it's like it's you, me and us all together, you know, and, and, and if that's the this, the, if that's central to your to every conversation, then you actually end up getting a better result, like everyone gets a better result from from being open and, and communicative and clear with with your needs. And also being realistic. I love doing this stuff. Because, you know, we, we need to talk, we need to talk about this stuff. Like I feel every time I talk about my my parenting style and how it aligns with my, with my art, I just, I feel good, I feel really positive. And I feel you know, and at times where, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of negativity surrounding our lives. And, you know, I think I think just just talking this stuff through reminds, reminds me that, that, you know, this too shall pass and, and I will get to a point where I'll get a tour, you know, somewhere and I'll say to my four year old or their, you know, your might be six at that point, hey, do you want to come on the road with me for a couple of weeks, you know, like, I know, that's going to happen, you know, I know that's going to happen. But yeah. And that's because it's because of the sort of the choices I'm making now. And, and waiting, letting letting life the be the thing that that that steers me, rather than my creativity, if you know what I mean. It's like you're, in a way, you're in a sort of a holding pattern, got all this amazing stuff, you know, you've got to look forward to because of how you've set, set your life up and set things up with your family. So it's really positive. When you look forward, it's salutely and it's a bit of a slow burn. You know, you can't expect it to happen straightaway. And I mean, sometimes I expect it, I expect things to happen far too soon. And, you know, I've just got to kind of try and try and sort of, you know, lose some of that disappointment. Knowing that it will, and knowing that, you know, it will be easier because I mean, we've got a four year old and a one year old at the moment and so we're wearing it at the moment. I'm wearing it deep. And you know, and it's no no word of a lie that the these last, you know, four years of our lives. It's the hardest hardest we've ever had to deal with. You know, you're just you're just totally forced to your absolute capacity and then some and but then you get out to the other side and just be like, Well, that was intense. That was intense. And, and then yeah, like, it just, it's, there's nothing like these first few years to, to really kind of remind you what it's like to be a human, or what it takes to be human. Yeah. And also, I think it gives you a sense of how much you're actually capable of that you probably didn't realize, because I've been forced to these extremes before. That's actually like, you can discover a lot of stuff about yourself that you didn't know. Yeah, yeah. But then on the other end of the spectrum, like I did not know, that I was capable of, of having so much love for someone else. Yeah. You know, like, the love I like I'm tearing up here. love I have for my children. Is it? I don't know anything else like it? Or actually no, nothing else like it. And, you know, when when I walk in the door, you know, a half an hour ago, and I hear my one year old going, daddy data, data and just like just crawling as fast as you can to get to me. Like, it's just like, far out like, what? What, what show have I ever done? That is as good as that. You know? It's the best and I think, yeah, I I hope that my kids realize that. I mean, I know they do. Yeah, I don't have to tell them that I love them so much. You know? Because I mean, I do every moment I can, but they I know they can feel it. Yeah, your actions, your behaviors are showing that. Yeah, and I'm sure, I'm sure that that that the the art that I'm creating at the moment is is is is in some way guided by by that love. That's something I'm interested to that I'd like to chat with people about, have you found that, that change in your life, that being a parent, and that all the changes and intensities that go with it? How does that How has that come out in your work, you find it reflected in what you're creating, I think I've written probably the most beautiful music that I could write through thinking about my, my daughters. One of them was when my, my eldest she look would have been about maybe six months old, and just screaming at three o'clock in the morning, holding her just just absolutely the at the end of my, you know, of what I could give her and just sitting at the piano and just started playing these arpeggios. And she just stopped. And the you know, I thought oh, this is cool. And so I just kept playing and kept sort of doing this, these these very simple arpeggios. And, and yeah, everything changed. And then I had like, I remembered it once he was asleep, and I just sat down at like, what at four o'clock in the morning, whatever is and wrote out this piece of music and and to this day, it's like it comes to her and calms me and and then last year I wrote her a saxophone concerto that was it was inspired by COVID and how the COVID pandemic was was developing and then halfway through and in the second movement I just it was when when you know our youngest was born and and yeah, it's I think it's the yeah it's up there with absolutely some of the most beautiful music I've made just because I I had her in my mind and I had her absolute kind of beauty and and it just it just came through in the notes and like music that never would have existed without without these experiences and I think I think the the beauty comes out of like the pain and suffering as well that you go through having having children and and then that loss of that loss of your old life because it is you know, I miss it. I'm not gonna lie, I miss it so much. It's like a mourning for Access, you have to go see lately? Because I mean, if you if someone says, I know, I don't miss my old life I, you know, this is this is this defines me now it's just like, that's that crap, I don't believe that for one second for one second and you know what it's I'm allowed to miss it because I missed it so much because it was so awesome. You know, but because it was so awesome that has turned me into a different person. And so it's like, well, you know, all of those experiences still exist, they exist in who I am right now. And all of those experiences still exist in in, in the stories that I'm going to tell my, my kids about, you know, the things that I used to do. And but then, you know, I don't I'm not saying that I'm going to be a hermit and just a father for the rest of my life, I know that things are going to change, things are going to get easier. And I'm going to get back on the road, I'm going to get back into doing more stuff and more full time. But at the moment, I've made that choice I've made that deal to be to be there to be present. What does your days look like? Now? I mean, obviously, you've quite busy with a one year old. But when do you find the time to be able to do what you need to do with your music? Well, so we've, we've found an amazing childcare center that both actually both my my kids go to now because Georgia, my partner, she went back to work three weeks ago, three days a week. So that's, that's been amazing. So the eldest goes three days a week, and the one year old, she goes twice a week. So I've effectively got two, three days of creative time now. It's excellent. And I have no idea how to use it. Like I'm telling you I'm at the moment like I'm, I've just been thrusted all of this time. And also because you know, it's a pretty, it's a pretty crazy world out there at the moment with COVID. And we were just committing to me doing some more travel, I'd meant to be playing three weeks at the Sydney Opera House in September, even though there hasn't been kind of publicly canceled. So and I was meant to be in Darwin this week for a festival. And of course, they've just coming out of lockdown. And so I've effectively got about six weeks of free time now as well, which has made our lives so much easier as parents because I wasn't going to be away for four or five weeks. Which I was really anxious about, just because of the implications of the home life, you know, and how Georgia could manage me we've got amazing supports from her, her parents. My folks still live in that Gambia so they can't, they can't help out in a physical sense. Yeah, so but but with this time that I've got, I'm in a real creative funk, hey, like, I've got all these projects that I want to, to embark on. I've been I've been constantly kind of dreaming stuff and writing stuff down. But to actually get to that next level, I'm finding it quite difficult. And I think there's a few things that are that, uh, like impacting my normal kind of my, my normal direction or my normal flow. And first and foremost, it's, it's that idea of what's the point? Yeah, are they actually going to happen? Like, you know, but I have to keep reminding myself that it's not, you know, the view is worth the climb. And so it's that whole kind of like, okay, the, the actual process is what's what I get the most amount of energy out of, you know, but then also, I mean, this is this is another can of worms, social media, like I'm, I'm absolutely 100% addicted to social media. And as as we all are, you know, if anyone's got Facebook or Instagram or Twitter on their phone, you're addicted immediately because those algorithms are so great. They suck you in so and also sort of not seeking out bad news, but just like looking at the news websites just to see what what bad things happened next, you know what I mean? And that's had a profound effect on my, on my outlook on life, like I'm at my core, I'm an incredibly positive and optimistic person. And I'm just feeling now that, you know, the, the, the weight of the world is getting a bit too much for me. And and so I'm actually I've made the decision this morning I'm going to have a bit of a break from social media, just because I've just found myself in some situations online that have been quite negative, and have sort of kept me up at night. And I need that you've got a one year old to keep you up at night. You don't need anything else keep me. I know. And so, yeah, it's a great, it's a great time to be having this discussion. Because, you know, the, the fact of the matter is that, you know, I've got all this time and I'm being super creative. But actually, the reality is, like, I've got all this time and I have no freaking idea how to use it. And that's the reality and that's, that's something that we need to all kind of embrace. I think. You can't be super creative all the time. Like this might be like a healing time that you just need for yourself, you know, to, I mean, a lot of people I think some people like hate lockdowns and hate whatever it is. But I know some people I've spoken to that are enjoying being locked away, because the world is so proud. And just being with the people they love and with the family that they need around them. I know that it's putting a spin on a negative but, you know, cocooning time for you, and then you know, the butterflies come out, you know, sometimes I absolutely, and I do track that I was forced into a, you know, physical and creative lockdown last year was pretty, like, the timing was pretty amazing. Because because we were about to have a kid, our second kid, and it was like, Okay, we're home. So what else are we going to do? We are going to, we're going to be here as a quartet. Like, who can go and deep? And it was it was, it was fantastic. And I think, for me, it's yeah, I'm still having trouble getting out of that zone. Because I loved it. Like I, I loved the fact that we were together so much. And that I'd made that choice four years ago, when we know when we had our first that it's like, this is this is a moment in time that I cannot get back. And any opportunity I can take to connect is going to bear fruit in the future. Yeah, and I mean, I've got some, there's some role models in my life that have that have been guiding me as well, like really strong, strong men and strong fathers that have really helped me through making these decisions as well. You know? And, yeah, and so the deeper you get into that mode of, of deep connection, and parenting, the harder it is to get out of it as well. And I think that's a part of it, as well, like i Yes, I've been incredibly creative in this time and these last four years. But I have no idea how I think, I think, yeah, necessity, I think deadlines are the only things that have actually kept me focused. I didn't have a deadline. I wouldn't be doing anything. I actually did write the other day. So I'm on Instagram, someone said that deadlines are really good for musicians, because they make you get off your acid do stuff. Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like I feel like I need to get back into that kind of idea. Because I mean, for me, you know, so many of my bands that I would start were like, basically, we would just be hanging out, you know, mates hanging out talking about music, had this idea for a band, and then all of a sudden we'd book a gig and get a t shirt designed and before we've even written a note so it's like you know, like that's yeah, let's Let's book the gig. Let's get the vibe. This is this is what it's gonna be like and like, bam, here it is. And yeah, they go okay, so what is it going to be? who's playing what? I think I need a bit more of that in my life. That's like a really stress to get you going You mentioned that you've had some really good role models around you positive and negative, I suppose you'd say things that you you think, Oh, actually, I don't want to do that. Yeah, there's lessons everywhere. You know, I think that where, where we go so well, is through communication. And, you know, some some interactions I've had with other fathers in the past have been quite insightful just in their just in the way that they describe their relationships, you know, with their partners, you know, like, just using that, that idea of, you know, or you're lucky, your misses have, you know, let you out of the house, that sort of thing. And so it's like, man, if you're gonna use that kind of language with me, I doubt you've had, you've had a really kind of, you know, deep conversation about your needs, both both of their needs. And so, you know, I, I've kind of learnt from friends that have had children before me that, that communication is key to being a great parent, so communication with your other half, because sometimes it'll be, you know, it feels like weeks, we're living in the same house, but sometimes it feels like weeks that we've actually connected, like, within Georgia, it's like, full on and, you know, and that's, that's a scary, that's a scary cycle that can be, that can be created, you know, to the point where you, you feel like, you don't know each other anymore. And like, and so communication is just so important, you know, communicating when things are going well, as well. Or not just when things are going badly, you know, and when things are difficult, it's like, let's, let's celebrate these, these moments of, of clarity and, and enjoying our life or new life together, you know? Yeah, so I've definitely, I've definitely taken that from from my friends. You know, James Brown, who's a guitarist, one of my best friends here. Yeah. Him and his partner and their family, they've they've been a big influence, as has Ross McHenry, who's another fantastic musician, incredibly prolific creator, with three kids, I don't know how he does incredible, but he's been a massive kind of beacon for me. But also John Sophos, who's a composer in New South, in New South Wales, in New Zealand, who's my, one of my favorite people in the world, and, you know, he's, he's got adult children now. And, you know, he, he came and stayed with us, you know, when our, when our eldest was about kind of one and a half ish. And we would just sort of sit up the frontman hair, and just chat and just spend time together. And, and he said to me, that I, that he could see himself in me in the decisions that he made when he was a young parent, to put his his career and creativity on the back burner for a while and really hook in with the kid. He's now so close with his kids that are adults, you know, and he said that the stuff that you do now is it's fertilizer. You know, it's, it is lifelong. It's a lifelong connection. And, and you've only got one chance to create that connection. And, and he just said, Look, I'm so happy with what you're doing. Because he's, he's reaping the benefits of it now, with these amazing relationships with these incredible human beings. I know both of his, his his Well, kids so well, as well. And they're amazing humans, you know. And so I look at him and just think, right, I, it might be hard now, but I know that what's happening, what's to come is pretty, pretty magnificent. That's it, you're sowing the seeds to reap, in the field, you're out there. And I truly believe in that, that idea of we only get one chance at this, you know, I've got so many chances to write a new song. I've got so many chances to, to start a new band to, you know, book, a tour, whatever, you know, whatever creative thing. I've got so many chances and if one chance disappears, then there'll be another one. But right now this is my only chance to be to be Is that that kind of person? That I truly want to be as a father that, that, you know, absolutely. Connected? Absolutely. Kind of engaged kind of human around them. And, and you know, silly as well, you got to be silly. Get down on the floor got to get down on the floor with them and play. Yes, that's just so important. Yeah. And again, going back to the social media thing, I think I am using it as a bit of a kind of advice, I think. And it's starting to creep into my, my relationship with my kids as well, like, I'll be talking with them, but I'll be looking at FACP. At the same time, I'm like, Well, what's going on? I need to stop this war, because I don't I don't drink anymore. I stopped drinking five years ago. This is before we even started kind of talking about really having kids and while we've been talking about them, but actually, you know, trying, which I'm happy about. And so I don't have I don't have like alcohol to fall back on. which so many of us do, like, and I can see the power of alcohol as well to have a you just want to have a nice glass of wine at the end of the day. You know, alcohol works? Absolutely. So so I don't have that. And so is that why you cut it out? Because you could see your alignment team? Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard. It's been the hardest thing to maintain. But also, I'm feeling really good about it. Yeah. Good for you. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, right now, what is it? It's it's one one o'clock in the afternoon and I'm I'm actually drinking a beer right now. It's a It's so I'm still drinking but it's just non alcoholic beer and yeah. Thanks, great. Do rejoice, and celebrate when when Georgia, you know, has a swig on the tequila bottle. It's like it's pretty cool. It's just like, oh, yeah, you needed that you needed that? did want to ask me about your music around the children, particularly older daughter? Do you play your instruments around areas like she she's into your music? Here's how it goes. Okay, I sit down at the piano. I play one note, Daddy, stop. I sing a note. No, daddy stop. Yeah, it's been. It's going well, yeah. But she's decided that she likes being in the same room as me when I'm practicing the saxophone. Which I? Yeah, I've usually I've had to go to I've got it. I'm lucky enough to have a studio space as well. And so I go to the studio to practice and just because I know if I start playing, she'll run at me and yell at me. And, and I'm cool with that. Because I'm not forcing it on her. It's like, she is such a strong willed little girl. That that's just you know, it's a fight. I'm not, I'm not prepared to to embark on because it might just end up with her hating music. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. I mean, she will never hate music. He loves music. She will listen to music all the time. She loves David Bowie. She loves like, she just loves music, which is fantastic. She wants to play the violin. And that's that came out of nowhere. I think just because we've been watching orchestral things and listening to orchestral things. Yeah, but so she'll sit with me when I practice. And so now, when I practice the saxophone with her, I'm purposely doing really simple stuff. I'm playing major scales. I'm playing scales and thirds. I'm doing things that aren't going to scare her away. So when she starts playing a musical instrument, she's already going to know the sounds and she's already going to know, like, how to practice. Yeah, and and funnily enough, yeah, like it was, it was amazing, like after, you know, a week or so she, you know, she came in with me a few times. She was just sort of sitting in the bar. Singing now she started singing this melody in thirds. She was makeup like, you know, corn and the fairy was things I think the singing in theaters and I'm like, Darling, are you singing what i've what I was practicing? She's like, Yeah. And I just thought to myself, well, there it is like it's Yeah, our youngest one. On the other hand, we can I can, I can pick up a spoon, and then drop it on the ground. And she will just go like, Oh, that sounds awesome. And she'll dance around. And she like, he is the absolute opposite she like you put on any kind of music and she just explodes. Right? They can pull up this and I, you know, and I play, you know, I play the anything that she loses. She goes crazy. When I put the blender on in the morning. She thinks it's the greatest sound in the world. And she's just sitting there dancing to the funny. Yep, she's just looking for any any opportunity just to bust out anyway. She's just, she's just hanging? Absolutely. Oh, look, I know that those qualities that that, you know, the oldest has are only going to be kind of her, or that they're going to be her superpowers when she's older. You know, it'd be so easy for us to to destroy that part of her. You know, but we want we're embracing it. Because, you know, the world needs more powerful women and she's, she's gonna take on the world. And I I wish anyone luck that stands in her way because they will not win. But that's, that's what I love about her as well. As challenging as it is. And as hard as it is to deal with sometimes it's actually like, pretty exciting. That she's gonna be that kind of person. Absolutely. Thank you can't wait to see can't wait to see what she doesn't care. She changes the world. Hope she's my manager actually. Even my manager, my bouncer. Yeah, personal security guy. Oh, that's so awesome. It is important for you to maintain who you are as a person outside of your role as a parent. Absolutely. Because, you know, as much as, as much as we say that, you know, we're the same person. It's, we're not, you know, and, and, and I really do believe that the identity is is incredibly important. And, you know, but but you need to know what, what that is, as well. And so, you know, what, what is my identity? And like, what, what do I identify with? And you know, what makes me me? And I've, yeah, there's a few things that make me me. One of them is, is reading, I read a lot. And I still read a lot. And I the one thing that I've kept from my, my life, pre kids is reading. And so every night I've read, it might be two pages. It might be two lines, it might be 100. I don't think I've, I mean, there might be some nights where I'm just absolutely smashed, and I just need to go to sleep. But generally, I'll read. So that's, you know, that's a big thing about my identity that I've kept. And that's and that's a silent part of my identity as well. But it's such an important part of me and a part of my life. And if I wasn't reading I yeah, I wouldn't be very happy person. And so So yeah, that that is the one thing that I've been, I've kept control of my identity as a musician. I don't think that changes because my identity isn't just about me, my identity is actually in other people. Now that might come out to kind of strange but, you know, in the eyes of of, of my public and the people that enjoy my music, they don't see me as a father. They see me as out of page the bearded musician So in many ways, my identity still exists. Okay? So that side of it, my public identity still exists. And if I, if I'm, if I'm trying to kind of, you know, simmer away at projects, and which I have been doing a bit, it's been more than simmering, it's been boiling sometimes, but, you know, if my output remains, then my identity in the public eye is the same, it just keeps growing, I guess. But yeah, but personally, it's quite simple. For me, and, and it's, and it's reading, it's listening to music as well. It's a big part of my journey of my, my kind of journey of being a better person is exploring other other music and letting the music in, rather than just leaving the music out. And, and that's something that I can do with my children as well. And, you know, I can share that. And that's, in many ways, kind of really helping our relationship as well, because they're growing through music. And, but then, but then, you know, you kind of have to ask yourself, you know, who am I and, I mean, who, who I was yesterday is different to who I am today. And who I'll be tomorrow, and that's just, that's totally, that's up to me, and it's up to my, my mindset at the time. Because if you think that your, your identity is fixed, then then you're missing out on so many other air like factors of your life that you don't know, existed. And so, I, that idea of identity is is kind of attached to the idea of self, you know, what is self what is, you know, it's just, I don't know, I feel like my my identity is who I am right now. And, and who I am right now, is someone that's, that's in a bit of a creative funk. And I'm okay with that. Because that's who I am right now. You can except, yeah, except that except that that's what it is. And if I, if I accept then if I was to be like, Oh, I should be this person, I should be this, you know, multi award winning bla bla bla bla bla, that's, that means nothing. Who I am right now is who I am right now. And so that, to me, is preserving my identity because I'm accepting my identity. All right, we're going deep. Oh, I love it. I kind of I need these conversations as well like because, you know, I do I do talk with friends about this stuff, you know, and it always makes me feel better at the end. So it's nice that we pressing record think the big takeaway from this for this, there's any, any fathers listening even mothers as well, is like communication is just key. And, and talking about the things that you really want to do. And then finding a way together, to be able to do them, you know, like, just being open, and communicating has just, it's just made it made made potentially sticky situations. really manageable. You know, and as I said, before, we've got so much help from from family that yeah, we're so lucky. We're very lucky. Very, very, very, very lucky. I'm eternally grateful for for the people that help us and help me actually it's mostly about me being able to realize not some of my artistic kind of, you know, dreams if you must. Yeah. So yeah, it takes it takes a village

Samantha Redfern British expat mixed media visual artist S2 Ep30 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Samantha Redfern is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and 3 children. Incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti, Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colour, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied fine art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolours, spray painting, and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging, on swimwear and she sells and exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in lockdown, patriarchy in art and the economics of a working artist, We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. **This episode contains discussions around low mood + miscarriage*** Connect with Samantha on instagram - https://www.instagram.com/samantharedfern.fineart/ and her website - https://samantharedfern.com/ Connect with the podcast https://www.instagram.com/art_ of_ being_ a_ mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on today's episode is Samantha red fan. Samantha is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and three children incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti. Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colors, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied Fine Art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolors, spray painting and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging on swimwear, and she sells it exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in locked down the patriarchy in art, and the economics of a working artist. We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. I hope you enjoy. This episode contains discussions around low mood and miscarriage. Welcome to the podcast, Samantha. It's so lovely to meet you today. Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me on. How did you end up in Singapore? So we so me and my husband we met at university, so I did a fine art degree. And he did maths. So you know, leads make sense? are really bad maps. What do you do? I do maps? Oh, it's perfect pairing. So yeah, we've been together since we were 18. We've been together for a really long time, had three kids. But the third one we had out here. So we I don't know. I think we were just stuck in this. This routine, like, particularly me because my husband was working in London, he only saw the kids on weekends. I was just in this, this routine of just housework, like housework and childcare. And it left me no room to even do anything. Like there was no one to look after the kids. So even in the evening, I couldn't go out anywhere or do even do like a Zumba class or something like that, because I couldn't leave the kids husband wasn't till about you know 1010 at night so really, really long days. Didn't have Netflix or anything like that. So you just end up surfing video chat, just bored. I was just really really bored and frustrated because I felt like I loved to keep part playing with the kids but actually lost who I was or any kind of ambition or motivation to seem to be non stop washing, you know folding clothes. Like all that kind of thing. Which if you are someone who loves homemaking, then yeah, sure. That's that's that's great. But for me, I never loved housework. never loved that. Yeah, you know what was it like for you as a kid? I guess not damn I've always been a massive animal lovers always had a lot of pets and have dogs and you know, love being out walking with them taking the kids for days out. But then this opportunity came along. My husband was offered a potential role overseas and it never happened. And at first I said No, good. No, I'm not moving. I'm not moving. Like what? Like, and then I just thought Why Why am I adamantly saying? No, like if opportunities come along, like, should we have that knee jerk reaction to just deny it and that I stopped thinking I thought wouldn't that be an you know, an experience or an adventure or something that opens up loads of possibility? He's we lived in a small village and Dave Days were quite similar. And then weekends was like, where do we go local garden center? b&q which is homeware store, you know, mowing the grass? I thought, why not? So we, yeah, we found an opportunity. And we moved over here, the dogs and the kids and just uprooted. And it was just the best decision. It was honestly the best decision. Yeah, wow. That's it's daunting, but exciting. You know, like, it's, you don't know what it's gonna be like when you get there. But you just go on for it. Yeah, I honestly, I just thought, I don't know, like, I will hate it, maybe will hate it. And I told everybody, we'll be back, we'll be back into the years, two years, we'll be back, we're just doing this for a little bit. And then it's six years now. You probably can't see yourself going back, probably no lifestyle who's so different, like, you know, I can run my business, I can see friends, I can do this stuff I can, if we moved back, everyone else's life would kind of be the same. The mind would change, if that's the thing in mind that would be negatively impacted the most. And I don't want to give that up. But I've been working for my business. So hard, put so much into it. And if I had to go back, and then not have time for again, and not, I just I just couldn't get couldn't literally kill part of myself off because I would desperately even feel like, yeah, fight this period of my life. And I don't want I don't want to, and everybody's so happy here. The kids are happy. And husbands super happy here. And it is hard because with COVID We've been separated. So never in a million years that I wouldn't see my parents for two years. Yeah, but life. Life happens. And it's been really tough. But it's still the right decision. A lot of expats move back home because of this because it couldn't be separated. But from a family perspective, we feel like it's the best thing to be to be out here and just hoping this goes away. Please go away Yes, I tell tell me all about your art. I know I've looked at it. I've looked at it on you online, and it's so bright and vibrant. And, and what you said, just through this conversation about you just want people to feel good and make people feel happy. And yeah, tell us all about it. I actually didn't start off by doing kind of like bright happy artwork. You know, it just kind of evolved. And I realized when we moved to Singapore, and like, there seems to be a gap in the market for abstract art for the older white walls, because most people here you're renting. This is expatriates. Or like you know, not to say most people I'm sure lots of locals but for expats and things most people are renting out here and and you get the bog standard white walls, you know, everything is white. And then people have bought stuff from home or they've left from home ash. So actually, I want something for my wars. Like you know, and I don't want something mass produced and when we're not in a position where we can just go and buy something that's like, you know, 30k or whatever. So I was like, Maybe I should do something. It's been such a while since I actually tried to paint because I'd been doing photography and I've been doing pastoral pastoral drawings and watercolors for you know, just people or myself or like my kids or pets or whatever. But I'm actually really got some paints out since university or other than getting a finger painting with the kids but in that kind of more like guess Okay, let's let's make something Yeah. And first it was like, What do I paint you know when people like can't go out and and go what Okay, so I just thought what, what do I see? And then I I walk a lot and you know, I was going out I've taken all my photos of all the tropical plants and things like that, of course color inspiration. So I was doing maybe plants and flowers, and then it evolved into my city scape series which is the combination of that Uh, the architecture here surrounded by this kind of lush tropical rainforest, the foliage. And then it evolved more into the abstract expressionists pieces with the graffiti style and the colors. So it's very much evolution, but everything kind of spins back, you know, to the beginning with the flowers and the nature and the shapes. So a lot of the shapes I use in my work, and they represent things like they still represent the buildings like a you squares a lot, which represents like humanity and a lot of ways. I've started incorporating crowns and things that was quite a recent thing. I did a breast cancer painting. It's called yas queen, and it was pink. And it's like, it's because it had boobs in their crowns in that and it's like a real like, empowering like piece. And I liked that. And that's how painting makes me feel so empowered. It's like, makes you stand out from the crowd. Like you're not just anybody. You're an artist and you're expressing yourself and that does make me feel confident. I like the reaction. You know, when people said what do you do? And you're like, Ah, I'm an artist. And I love that it makes me feel really really empowered. So the Crown's come in as that kind of symbol of like, Yeah, I'm, I'm doing my thing and I feel positive. Yeah, so that's really cool. I love that so you talked about photography in your past was have you always done a bit of art throughout your whole life? Yeah, literally, I did. From the my one of my earliest memories of preschool is one of my teacher saying, Oh, well done smells. Really, you know, you've done a good job on this. And I think, you know what, when you have positive affirmation from teachers is so important. Not all teachers are good. And not all teachers are encouraging. But when you have that it makes such a difference for a child. I've been lucky. I've had some teachers that totally dismissed me as nothing, you know, like I wasn't sporty. So the PE teachers and things they were like I always liked English. So my English teachers were always very good with me, and I like creative writing or write poems and little kids stories and things that Lance anything created for me. Yep, not sporty, crap at maths, like terrible maths, I think because it's so it's either right or it's wrong. And I don't like that. I like things that are open for interpretation. And I think with artworks, people see different things evokes different emotions in people, whereas Yes, some I'm sure it does, because for some people who love math, they get very excited about equations. But for me, like, No, I don't have a massive brain. Just honestly awful. And then I did it for my GCSE. So I did art design. And then I went on to college. And I did basically a double A level in art and design, which is great, because basically spent most of the time doing art. I did English as well. So I did a level English and I did this double. A level. I loved it, because I think this is what made my practice kind of what it is now because I'm really experimental. I like to try different things. So people were like, Okay, you're doing this now, or you're done this, but for me, that's what should be. It shouldn't be like, Oh, I've nailed something, someone's bought it. I'll just do 1000 of these until I die. It's more. Okay, what else can we do? And I had this teacher called Yuna, and she was always like grass. Nice. Happens If you stick this on it, you know? And that was her attitude. It's like yes, that's a nice painting. What can we do to really make it not just a nice painting but as something, you know, elevated somehow. And that's exactly how I've approached my my work and I started doing the mixed media staff and I love it now. I find it really hard not to stick stuff on my work when I'm painting through this across so spray paint Tanner just just cover it in it. You know, I think when you're not scared of ruining a piece, it enables you to really kind of like, let let go and I think that society can be so so rigid and we're doing our same routine means and for me, it's like this, this big release of energy and everything is just getting a canvas, big canvas, like working big and then just going to town on it, you know, it's so releasing, and anybody can do it. Anybody can do, it doesn't have to be something that's gonna go and hang in the Tate Modern or whatever. It's just part of tapping into yourself and that primitive urge that so many of us have, like with singing or music or dancing, or, you know, whatever, we have this urge to express ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. So you've mentioned just in passing just a little bit about your kids and their ages. Can you tell us a bit more about about your kids? Yeah, so I've got a 12 year old daughter, and yeah, I was 20. I was 26, when I had her. So that's actually like, quite young by today's standards. I didn't, I didn't feel overly young. And in fact, I'm glad I had event because I had a kid later as well. So I've got a four year old. And, wow, your bodies are so much more tired, so much more time in your 30s then it is in your 20s Now, I don't think everybody has to like make decisions based on you know, where they are in their life and like, you know, the situations and circumstances. And for us, we got married quite young. So we were married at 24 I think we just kind of thought, shall we, you know, as so many people do, when you think about having a family kind of tends to be a bit you know, can be a bit of a like a showy, and, you know, worked out everything you don't expect it not to though, with your first you don't expect it you don't have any decent day you don't know any different you don't know about troubles with conception or miscarriages or things like that. You just expect you're pregnant. And it'll go it'll be fine. It's quite a nice easy breezy pregnancy. But with with her like I was working so I had a sales job. And I wanted to make a lot of money so that I could have comfortable maternity leave. So I basically had loads of orders coming in and coming through get the Commission's that in my head, I was like if I go for coffee and a cake or like, you know, want to treat myself to something that's all on I'm paid for it. So I'm not going to be like a financial burden by not, you know, not working and then costing extra. Yeah. But then I wanted to go back and I tried to get that but our company was bought out by someone else. And then my job wasn't there anymore. And they said you just keep applying, like through the portal. And so I was applying for jobs. I mean, I probably shouldn't have to apply for finance director, you know, didn't really have that that credentials, but the salary looks really attractive. It's like sure, I'll go back to 90k. But I tried anyway, I did. I did try. And then we got pregnant with my middle child, my son. So there's literally one month off three years between them. And yeah, I had a miscarriage in between two, I think two in between. You know, so I know then when you have that, that other pregnancies you learn that it's not always plain sailing, and it's not always, you know, given that you just get pregnant and then just have babies. But yeah, so having having taken this when I had a call from a company, it's like coming back to work. I was like, Well, you know, I'm kind of pregnant and they're gonna have another baby, baby. And then with with him, I did the maths of what I would go back to salary wise, what it would cost me to commute to work what it would cost me to have lunch or coffees or get binding work. rope, you know, and then car petrol maintenance childcare. Yeah, I would have made literally like a couple of grand like once you subtract it or taking home that 2000 pounds. That looks so good. You know, that's not like a month. Yeah. I just don't, actually we're okay. Without my salary. We've managed, you know, we've managed voluntary redundancy, which helped and, and then, so we're okay, we just keep living the way we're living. And then I stay at home with the kids and my husband, you know, he was working long hours. And of course, he would have encouraged me to go back to work, or he would have supported me like, whatever, it was very much my decision. But he did like that I'm there. For the day taking photos, I'm there firsthand with the kids, I can tell him, you know, the little stories or showing the little video clips of what the kids did during the day, rather than coming back, you know, knackered in the evening, and then just hearing it from the childcare. So we were very privileged and very fortunate that could have done that. But everything is positive always has a negative because of course, I stepped away from the corporate world. So I could been climbing and carried on climbing the ladder. Do you take that sacrifice in a lot of ways to spend time with the kids? And then also, remember it you know, it did benefit them hugely. If they don't remember those years, then you get those comments, but daddy works really hard, you know, and that was kind of really annoying. Yeah. You just you just do this. I mean, you just, you know, get the Hoover out. And it's like, okay, okay, you know, you get the credit. You don't get the credit and you feel like you should, you should be like I'm doing everything you know, and I'm not getting paid. I'm like free. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I actually had my I was putting away some washing the other night, my eldest? No, my little one, I've got a I've got a 13 year old and a six year old. My little one says, Mum, why are you always the one that does the washing? And I said, that's a very good question. Digby, why is that? And he goes, cuz, cuz you just have time. And I said, Well, maybe I don't have time. Maybe this is something I have to fit in amongst everything else I'm doing. So why should I be the one that and it got me thinking. And I thought, this is the first time in all these years anyone's actually said that, you know, like, I had this conversation with a, a mum through this podcast. And she said, I don't remember having the conversation with my husband, when I decided I would do everything with the children said, it's just a thing that that society expects, you know, it was like, I'm expected to give up my job. I'm expected to give up my art, my body, my life, you know? And it's like, well, you wanted kids. So there you go. Like, it's just this, this thing that happens to us. And there's what besides? society isn't very sympathetic. I see this when I read comments. I never read comments, don't read comments. It's like a horrible rabbit hole where you just think oh, my God. Yeah. The age old debate about parent child spaces. Yeah. Can I ask them in Australia, right. So I didn't realize the importance until I had kids. And you realize that actually, and even being pregnant as well, because it was a situation I couldn't get into my car. Because somebody parked and I had this massive bump, I couldn't actually get into my car. But then with kids getting them out, but then you understand that you need to open your doors wider to be able to get car seats in and out and strap your kids you need to get right in there struggling and then people like you asked you to have kids. It's not our fault if you shouldn't get special treatment. And it's like, oh my god, do you not understand how society carries on? So what if we all just went on strike? Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah. Then what? Then society collapses? Yeah, the, you know, no one said to pay, who pays people's pensions? We're doing this a good job, we're doing a service. And if we do a good job raising our kids, those better it all in and raise these nice people to nice people that are going to society. And that that isn't just done to me, and it's not like, well, then I've had you, I can just leave you alone. And then you'll grow up to be an outstanding member of society. It takes a huge amount of work. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing of that. Yeah. Someone else said said the words that, that people forget that we are literally raising the next generation like we are. We are, whatever we do, and how we do it affects how society is going to be, you know, 2030 years down the track. You know, so what we do has so much value, but because it's not a monetary and monetized thing, that value just disappears or dissipates. It's just not valued. I know I don't I don't I'll be back on tick tock This is an interesting topic, this, the last three mums that I've spoken to have, we've all gotten to this, this topic about the way that the mums have been shafted, basically through through COVID. It's yeah, we're the first ones to go and the least appreciated, but, you know, doing the the really hard emotional work, but, you know, that's just what you got to do. Society just expects that and one of the mums said, because she was selling her artwork, it made her and her husband as wealth feel like it was a legitimate job. She said, if I was just doing my art, for me, just as a, you know, something fun, or something I enjoy to do, it wouldn't have been important enough to keep doing, you know, so it's also that monetary value that we have to play some things important. Yeah, that's what he does. Because it says that you're, you know, if you're a big roller, then you're successful. And it doesn't eat. I mean, success is totally subjective, anyway, because Am I successful? Only if I earn crazy amounts of money, like, you know, and these artists are doing credibly? Well, not definitely not the, the the rule, they're the exception to the rule and female artists to get to that point. It's pretty much impossible, because society still banks on the male artists, so can we go to auction? It's always the male artists, these their works are going off for billions. You know, women tend to get that that look in. And until society changes if it ever changes. Because every time we go in the right direction, something comes along and it sets us back. Yeah, thank you. With COVID Set women back climate change the people, they said the people that suffer, suffer the most with that will be women so so we keep we keep bouncing back. And we try and we don't we don't give up. Keep keep going. And but yeah, it's I don't know what your success I feel successful. Because I'm doing something that I that I enjoy, I want to make money from it. And I need to really, because otherwise, how am I going to pay for my materials or whatever. That's what we do is this kind of unpaid work. Because when you're self employed, everything that you're doing your your Instagram, and then people who will say, Oh, you're just messing around on Instagram, it's like, I'm actually not like, I'm a marketing, you know, professional. You know, it and to be that person I looked into, like, how much it costs to get someone involved in all that kind of stuff. It's expensive. So doing all this stuff myself to cut cut costs. And yeah, when people like somebody laughed, I said, I was expensive to be an artist and somebody laughed. I went, No, it really is. Yeah, and that's the mentality isn't it? That's how they that's what they think it's like, what what you're just you're just fluffing around, doing whatever. Yeah. That people have in their minds. Yeah. And they don't realize when they see something sell and they go whoa, money bags, and like you don't realize how many cameras I've bought, how much paint I've bought, you know, my studio I rent it's like these these things that I'm putting in and I still not I'm still not making huge profits or no I'm keeping enough and making enough so that I can my business going. Like if for whatever reason, I suddenly had to be the main breadwinner. I couldn't do this full time you know, I'm not making enough that I can be like sure guys are pay the rent our payment, you know, our buy the food shopping. Honestly, I couldn't I want to get points and that's what I'm working towards. So that's my goal. Like, okay, I can keep my business going now. But I want to get to the point and I think I'm entitled to get to the point of doing this that I can be like I'll pay the bills you know, I'll put food on the table like yeah, you know yeah won't be good on Yeah. I don't think it's like unrealistic or like, you know, unjust a one. Be saying and kind of have that motivation to try you know, try to do it. Yeah, absolutely not good for you Yeah, I think everyone's really had enough of this pandemic. Oh, God, just so depressed. I think it stems my work through through the pieces. Like I then kind of went through this rebellion, because it's so like, you know, unhappy like, I'm not really I'm not a really upbeat person all the time. Like, I'm a Pisces, so I am like, one minute I'm like, I love everybody. I've already is amazing. And next is just like, oh my god, yoga new Mommy, you know, is this changes like, I do get bouts of like feeling low and feeling down and things like that. But I'm, I'm, I'm an optimist. So my husband's like, the more pessimistic and I'm always like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Let's do it. But I do get down, not just constantly high on life. And I did find it really hard. Because so many of my plans were canceled as well. And I didn't want to feel down because I was like, How dare I, you know, people are really suffering. Yeah. And I kind of thought, actually, I am entitled to acknowledge that I feel down, like, singing from the rooftops. And like, you know, so Oh, woe is me. But like, just to allow myself to actually acknowledge I feel a bit a bit low and a bit disappointed. And I think disappointment is the hardest emotion to deal with. But as a kid as well, like kids, yeah, you're going to Disneyland all of a sudden, you're not going to do that. That is such a hard that's such a hard emotion and it doesn't get any easier as you're an adult. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And you tell yourself, you should deal with this. You're grown up, you know, but you still like things you just say actually disappointed. You flying to all these places, or these countries and doing these shows, and they're like, Wow, this is gonna launch me I'm gonna be there. And the same goes to me, who am I gonna meet different artists, galleries, different whatever. And it's like, knowing you're not going anywhere. You're staying in Singapore for two years. But I guess the The upside to that is no one else is going anywhere. So it's not exactly and I just channeled it or reversed it. And I went through Blue periods. I did people who followed them for a while remember, I just like non stop blue stuff. This has been locked down to begin with, as I blue blue, like depressed blue. And then I just like no, do you know what I can't if I'm not dealing with it? Color. And that's when like, I just believe she rebelled. And I made these like, obnoxiously cheerful, like pieces. It's a kind of like fingers up to like that kind of down feeling. I was like, No, I'm gonna surround myself with these joyful colors and joyful things. And we were in our house right in our house can't leave anywhere. It's had all these paintings all over the walls that hung everywhere. And it was so nice having that I realized people realize being at home, they should have more art. You know, when you're stuck. Actually having just some piece, it makes you feel cheerful and makes you feel good, honestly, does change your space. And if you wake up to that and see if it doesn't lift you as well, you feel like calm surrounded by something beautiful, something positive. And it has that effect on your mood instantly, instantly. Yeah, absolutely. It's like you've decided that the outside world's going to hell, but that's fine. Because in my space, everything's lovely food and I'm creating, you're making, you're making it what you want it to be control. I think a lot of people when you feel out of control, you want to harness some control, right. And this happens a lot of the time, there was a period of time where we were all just completely out of control. And I think when you can control some element of your life, it brings you some kind of relaxation, some kind of safety as well, so I can't control this. And particularly as we were we're a family of five and the rules were all like, you know groups of two, so you'd get out or you know, or one and I had a toddler so my youngest is four. So in the height of Dan, who's two years old, like so full of energy and take him to his little preschool will take Come to like, all these indoor playgrounds, you can run around and just burn off that energy. All of a sudden, he can't leave the house and it's like, wow, the odor to them all right, they were already into like gaming and that kind of thing. They could entertain themselves pretty much. Having having a toddler is like a whole new. Yeah. You want to go out you want to let them run out. And they're also worried about like them not getting any vitamin D or anything. Yeah, we've had a balcony we weren't even allowed outside. So this is how bad it was. And we don't have a garden because we're in a like a what they call here Cluster House, which is like multiple units with shared you know, shared pool shared shared gardens. So because you don't own it we weren't even allowed to go outside like no remaining your property no bounce no balcony. No you know anything so it was really tough. Oh, that's horrible. Well, we because we were in what they call a condo before and I'm so glad at least we moved to this house because now we're kind of more separated and then my husband could still work without everybody being in basically one room because how stressful is that? Because if you've got some need some new trying to do a job and then you've got shouting kids and then you're the one that can also I didn't want to because women really suffered during this because awesome their work if it what weren't paid enough, you know, you're not the breadwinner, your your job has to take that slip, you know, and this was what happens how we ever supposed to catch up if we can't do it, you know, who keeps in cold all yours is just a sideline, yours is a hobby, yours is, you know, doesn't in the big bucks was never going to bring the big bucks is it it's always a sideline exam. You never get the chance to know exactly, it's always that whole first sign of trouble. You've got to, you've got to look after the kids but my husband, he's, he's very, he's very good, strangely FC, or he's very good. You know, he, he doesn't ever try and dismiss my, my job what I do as a sideline or hobby. And, yeah, he's really supportive. And he's got a huge amount of belief in me. And I think that makes such a difference or in a partnership. And it works both ways. Because I've always supported him, you know, as well. So it goes it goes both ways. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. You talked about doing your pastels and your watercolors and stuff. Were you doing that while the kids were little like we able to do any of this for when my daughter was born. And the first like year of life, I think for maybe my son, I didn't do anything. Honestly, I took photos always had like an SLR camera. And I just like to go out and do that. I took loads of pictures and kids and all that stuff. But I literally had no time. And I told me about your recurrent dream where we we had a house. And one day I just discovered this door. I opened the door. And it's this whole wing like of a house like this stuff that we didn't even know we had. And it's like, oh my god, wow, when did we get ballroom? This house, this house was so important. And you just like I had this dream so often. And I'm looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring and neglecting and it's there the whole time going. Come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like because this is I've done I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece. It was totally neglected. And then I took a picture of the kids and I thought just to make such a nice drawing makes it such a nice truck. And I just got pastels and I drew it. And what's really nice, like, it's really nice, I haven't done anything so long. That's really pretty. We framed it and, and then it's kind of just started me doing that. So I use my daughter all the time as like my muse and I did little drawings and then other people in the village was like, Oh, can you do my kids? Can you do my dog? And can you, you know, deal with this. And then that started the business in its early infancy. So that when I came to Singapore, I registered business care, because I was enjoying doing that it wasn't bringing in much money, because it's, it doesn't at that point. And I did it for again, businesses, friends, people, paying you to do the other kids, family, whatever. And that gave me some confidence. And also, yeah, like a little bit of extra income, like, you know, but it wasn't really ticking the boxes in terms of letting loose creatively, because when you're doing someone's kid, you can't suddenly be like, Oh, I'm gonna stick. Goodbye row on there. Doesn't look like my child. And so you it's very much formulated, you've got to grid it out, you've got to play it, it's got to look like the person you're drawing because that's the whole point of those kinds of paintings. Okay, but does it really identify? Like me as well? Just like, is it stand out? Is it recognizable? Because the next part of being an artist is, is developing a style and your style can change. It doesn't have to be this is my style. Now I'm good. I'm staying with this stuff ever. You look at the Masters look at the artists and history with their work isn't the same thing replicated? Like basically carbon copy for that wherever you've artists that do everything like installations. Her like your customer, right? So she's, she's got photo photo, she's got installations, she's got painting she's got, but you don't have to pay for your creativity. You can really, yeah, like circumnavigate the whole, the whole spectrum and, and just give things a go. I've done pottery. I've never done that. late, so I was like, Yes, I'm gonna sign up for a pottery course. Like, you know, why not? What things can you learn? You just learned different, different things about your, you know, your capability. I mean, I'm, I'm not going to do pottery going forward. I think at first I thought I was had this romanticized idea that it'd be super easy, like just throwing pots. And then I imagined painting them in these colors. And I just kind of thought, Yes, I'm going to do this, this is going to be my thing. And it's like, I didn't really shit I still carried on, because I'm a truck. And I've got some nice pieces around the house. But yeah, it's not. It's not for me, I find it to just like what painting gives me which is the freedom that desperately I don't like being restricted or following a formula, which is, you know, pottery and things like that. It's, it's an exact kind of science. And there's a, there's an exact kind of way to do it. And I've got a huge respect for them. But also, it just takes so long. Needed clay out, then you could, you know, you'd roll in spinning it and pull it and then you've got to wait for it to bisque and then you've got to glaze it and you've got to fire it. So takes weeks to get one piece you know, can roll out a massive canvas, like huge canvas, and just spend the day slapping paint on it and like, you know, building the app and in terms of maybe, I mean, I'm an instant gratification person to work on this that's it, I need to take my time. Rather than expect to come out at the end of the day with something workable, you know, that's very interesting. In practice a lot of yoga and one of the terms they they say, if you hate a particular pose, and that's the one you need to work on, because that's the one that's challenging you might not be physically but mentally so there you go. Yeah. Might be that might be your, your thing. Impatient as far as like, I've got no patience at all I hate queuing. Like, you know, I hate that kind of thing. I'm really, really patient like as a person. So yeah, but I've started doing yoga as well. Have I need it because I'm so I'm so uptight. I'm like the real kind of wound, tightly wound kind of person. And I've got issues with this because it causes me physical pain, like I clench my teeth, or Yeah, yeah. And just my neck pain is awful. I've been having physiotherapy for it for ages. And some days, it's so bad, it just gets me really, really down because it's horrible living in constant like constant pain. And then it puts me off going to the studio, because when I go to the studio, I spend a lot of time on like Cantonese, I do that and then when you're scaring in one position a lot of time as well. And then, you know, I ended up putting my neck more sometimes after a lengthy day, in this year, so I'm like, Okay, well, I've got yeah, I've got my mouth God, now we're running out of time, this and that. And now I'm like, Brad, I need to do yoga, I need to find that harmony, that relaxation and just learn to focus on doing that. And not constantly Oh, I better check Instagram, Oh, I better do this. I'm going to upload to this I'm gonna do that already should be painting or I should do this or I should do some exercise you just little you know, there's so many things. I can just sit in my head. I'm like, promotional guy. I love it. And I started doing outdoor yoga. Last year, I've had a number of health problems, which has stopped me from getting into into it, I want to and I think the motivations there. So just just life keeps getting in the way. But they do the outdoor class at the botanical gardens. And I'd say I love walking. So for me that is my exercise. I don't like the gym, I don't enjoy any of that. I like just walking, taking photographs, like just getting out in nature, quite often on my own, just just the solitary you know, stop, I'll have a coffee on my own like love it, I find that really, really relaxing. So I started doing this outdoor yoga class outside. And the rigor itself was fun, like it's nice. My favorite bit was last bit when they get you to lie. And maybe had these like ice cold flannels that you put maybe your face and you just lay there, like totally exposed because there's there's everything there like, you know, otters and monitors are watching over you. You're like you don't get attacked. And it just that was just the best moment like that because people don't find that cyclic, quiet, solace, just pure relaxation in our day to day lives. Really? We don't really Yeah, that's it my daughter is 12 and she's not allowed Instagram. And the reason I say that is because for me my my algorithm knows I'm only interested in art accounts. So my home my home page and my explorer page is like just basically ours. They do still sneak in some celebrities you know I've heard is that you know the Spider Man guy and stuff like that I'm showing an interest in in that but it seems to be really really pushing that I should be interested in Yeah, I'm sure there's like the big companies must pay to be able to get their stuff on that that Explore page because this stuff comes up about like to say I've because I'm I love Star Wars. So Adam Driver, like from the actor from Star Wars. Any movie that he then is in it comes up with the trailers of that and I'm like, like, I love Star Wars. I don't necessarily love this guy, but I like to tell but they're trying to like, you know, Lady Gaga or come up because he was in a movie with her. She's that's it, her and the guy from Star Wars. You're right, that he's all over my school page. I've got like three stars, but I don't mind because I do actually watch the hairstyle stuff. So I'm like, Yeah, fine, like I do. I do like his posts. I'm like, It's fine. I don't I'll watch them because I'm quite happy to have art and Harry Styles on my school page nine with my daughter when my daughter borrowed my phone. She started looking at this was like about a year ago. I think she was a kid these row, you know, row bucks, whatever. It's all very robust. Alright. And she was looking at some room examples or something. And then I looked at my Explore page, and then all of a sudden, it's full of women. We mean, you know, little clothes and things like this acid, this is the problem. Like, you've looked at that and it's gone. What does the person who's looking at this want to look at? Or if they don't wanna look at but what you know, and then it's such a unrealistic female body types and things like this, and I use it as a, as a way to have a discussion, you know, with her about these filters, because I'm guilty of doing it too, right? Yeah, not every like, not every post I put on my feed is, is 100% natural with no no lighting tweaks or something like that. But like, Come on, we live in a day and age and there's nothing wrong with trying to show your flattering, you know, more flashy stuff. Some of them are just want to say then there's nothing on there. There's no filter. It's just done straight from my thing. Because, yeah, I'm not trying to sell cosmetics or whatever. It's my artwork. Yeah. But then, hopefully, if I'm doing a real or something, then what? Yeah, I'm guilty. Yeah, that's the thing, too. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look the way that you want to present yourself, either. Like, I had some photos done recently, because I'm releasing a new album next year, or hopefully this year. And I got some photos done and, and the lady that did them is like a proper portrait photographer. So she's telling me like, put your chin out and drop it down, and then lean forward and all this. And I'm like, I know, I'm going to look, I'm going to look better, because my double chin is not going to come out. Like this is okay. Because this is I mean, it's a it's a technique, I suppose to make you look more appealing, I don't know. And I thought when I was doing it, I thought is this bad, but I'm not just standing like a normal person. And he said, we get shamed into doing this. This is the thing that you say you're guilty if and Badgett and I always if someone says, You look great, I'm the first one to say it's a filter, you know, and I think we've got to stop doing that. Because the the celebrities or whatever the Instagram influencers, they're not being forthcoming with that information. Yeah. And that's the thing, like, even the amount of airbrushing, like I didn't realize too, I don't know how long ago when, maybe 10 years ago when all this big thing come out about the airbrushing that we're using in magazines and all that I was just like, Ah, so they're not that perfect. Like, you know, you have this moment of you think that because you cuz I don't know, they there's these these people that exist in the world that are absolutely flawless, you know, but maybe, maybe they're pretty good, but no one's absolutely perfect. You know, when you zoom right into your pores like no one is that perfect. That's the thing with the models and things like that in your teen magazines and we didn't have internet when I was little we had all these teen magazines are just 17 all that kind of stuff right? Read that but they would airbrush all the girls have these flawless skin and now you're like 1415 with a breakout and you know with a Tash? And it's like, well, where's, you know, where are these people and I just an anomaly, but then you're looking around your friends at school and you're like, yeah. But I'm saying that too. Like when I had these photos time, the photographer asked me if she wanted, she said, Do you want me to airbrush out some of you? You know, yeah, it's close feed or whatever. And I was like, no, because that's me, you know, like, I don't know, I just felt like, okay, you can make me look more flattering. Physically, that's fine, but don't take away my character. You know, like, that's, you know, all these guys into my art and my creating, like, if I hadn't experienced life, I wouldn't have these lines to show it and I wouldn't have the story. I know it is. It is hard. And when you put your face on something, say like your music, it's a bit like a book cover. In a way, you know, somebody's gonna look at your album. And now the first thing they'll judge you on isn't by the contents because they can't see it. They can't hear it. You know, they don't know. They might not know your backstory There literally is like taking that first image of you and making that decision if they want to press play on the you know, on a thing or I don't know Do people CDs anymore? I don't know. I still get them printed. But yeah, I mean, this is the thing like that's, this is the photo, right? So that's it. That's what they see. From that they have to decide if they like my music or not. Yeah, likely they have bad luck like it though. I like that. It's really nice. It's really approachable. It's an approachable photo, you know? And if that I don't, I haven't listened to music, but Um, now I would get that it was more uplifting so you're not like a sole key like I don't know you might be but from that Yeah, I think it's like kind of more like uplifting rather than yeah depressing doom and gloom that's that's you look at you go you're like the Analyze of this and that's it think as a woman we are totally judged on more of our appearance and like you can't win because honestly, if you show too much flesh, you're told that you're selling out or you're doing this. If you're too conservative, then you frumpy and, and, you know, I had a negative I don't get trolled, like I might do after this. But I don't get out. You know. I think and I'm not controversial. I don't have like, I don't share strong opinions or strong views. I keep it like, no politics, no religion. No, you know, because it's not, that's not what my my painting is about. It's about making people happy rather than provoking or, you know, any kind of I got trolled. A while ago, the photo was new. And I live in Singapore, right? It's hot, it's sweaty. I live in shorts. And like needle, I have a little you know, singlet tops or little T shirts. Because it's boiling. It's like 33 degrees. And hardly anybody wears anything. It's just day to day. And the photo I was in, I was just wearing what I was wearing that day. So I haven't got changed or done anything special for it. Just what this is what I've been wearing. While I've been painting, I'll just sit in front of it and take picture. Somebody wrote, Wow, good job setting back women painters, 50 years. But the thing is, didn't realize their comment is setting. That is not me, because there's a word entitled to wear whatever I want. But also wearing Sports Shorts. You go to a fitness page, like are these women getting like, you know, they're wearing a sports bra? I wasn't wearing a sports bra. But if I was, you know, I'm allowed to. And I think a comment like that just shows where that person is in their mentality. Like this, they are in this in their being they are the ones holding it back because they continue to think like that, you know, they made a decision to see you like that because that's how they're feeling about it. You know, I was strange because it wasn't it wasn't a sexual but even if it was, but it wasn't. But you know, it's like still like, it's my prerogative. I mean, if a woman wants to show her body, it's like it's up. It's up to them. I'm not going to go through and the Internet, I'd be there for weeks. You know, just being negative comments on anybody who's scantily clad for for male, female, or transgender whatever, there's so much flesh on display on Instagram. But if you're looking for that, I wouldn't say Come to My Account changing tack just slightly I want to ask you about the concept of mum guilt. I mean, we call it mum guilt here. I don't know if you have the official hashtag mum guilt over there. But yeah, have you come across that sort of interview with your art like that taking that time for yourself? Do you have those feelings of I should I should be with the kids or that kind of stuff? Yeah, actually, when I started painting that property painting, I waited until the kids were in bed. It's like, you know, painting till like midnight. Because I was high choir. I don't want it to take away my time with the kids. So I was Yeah, I was doing it cramming in. So instead of time where I should have been probably relaxing. It was like now I've got to gotta create content. Keep going in on these things, it's quite good in a way because you know, you have to create content. So it pushes you to make that schedule and make sure you're showing up so it stops you kind of slipping away and think, Oh, I'm a bit busy at the moment. It's just taking some time finding some time because you don't even have to do anything massive or spectacular. Honestly, like I do. arted this year doing abstract faces, right and small with a three paper. And I'm just doing them as this busy extended visit this year, I got lots of stuff coming up and government wisdom teeth out this week I know I'm going to be, you know, I'm not going to be able to go into the studio and do massive pieces and things that I'm gonna have to take easy. So, I mean, my three paper and some paints here, I can find some time to do something. Small, and weed. Now the kids are older, and so they're all at school and stuff. So it don't feel the guilt. But when I was in traveling, this has nothing to do with guilt. Right? So he's kind of all but if I do this show, and I go, Well, I'm gonna be way I'm gonna be in a different country away from my kids. Whereas Yeah, if you're, if you're a man, that's your job, you just travel a lot. I'm not saying they don't also, you know, don't feel guilty, because it'll be a lot of men that travel and they don't want to, you know, they didn't want to, but you know, whatever to go wherever the money is, and whatever. But yeah, you do feel that, oh, I'm away from my kids, I'm gonna rush back and get back, you know, get back to the kids and, like, whatever. But what makes it all worth it, it will not be worth it. It's like how, when they're over it now. But when I first started when I started selling, they were so proud. And they're so excited. And they only tell the teachers on my mom's and our tears. There's a middle son's was asking me if I'm famous yet. Many YouTube subscribers, you know, people have an audience. I'm like, No, I don't have that. I'm not I'm not famous. You know, it's different, different measurements, but I like that now they have that. But now if I sell it, okay to my daughter, I'm still going to be like yeah, it's good. That's something you know, and, and inspiring debt to, to be more creative. And I think then growing up in a household that has a lot of art is a really nice, really nice way to grow up like books as well. It's shocking how many, how many houses don't have any books, we have loads of books and art, I think, super important. None of us are that musical. I wish we were I wish we were I never learned an instrument. I feel like probably not going to now. The ship has sailed. Kids do music at school. And apparently, my daughter's quite promising. Her teacher was saying that she's you know, she's just showing some, some promise and music. Because it would be nice if one of them did something musical, you know, just got the clarinet out or something that's like just careful what you wish for my son is learning the bagpipes. So yeah, at the moment, he doesn't have a bag at home, but he has the charter. So we'll be watching the television. And he will just walk down the passage and just stand there in the lounge. Like I'm putting on a show right now. And my husband, I'll just be like, Hi. But yeah, sort of saying careful what you wish for because you end up with that clarinet in your head at four o'clock. Who isn't gonna change things? We're not like, Wait, we're not really really super pushy parents either. Because my mom and dad are so laid back like so laid back. They never pushed us to do anything. Yeah, he's on with it. And I think it's quite good. Because I think self motivation is really important. And if you're having every aspect of your life and managed, you don't have that it's like oh, now it's guitar lessons. Now it's Chinese now. It's extra maps. It's like, yeah, you're not allowing yourself to ever have a moment of what shall I do with my life? Like what should i How should I entertain myself? There's always things that you think you should be doing, like you know, I joined Tik Tok and YouTube and then and Twitter and then there's just not enough minutes in the day to do them to just do them all. We just never do anything. Yeah, I basically I stick to I love eating grant, that's my favorite social medium. And I did, I looked at tick tock and I thought, Oh God, I could spend all day just looking at stuff on here and not do anything else. So you do, obviously, I stopped, I've stopped looking at it. Because the algorithms, they know what you kind of want to look at. And then if you look at a few videos, then it was just showing me non stop videos that were making me kind of angry. And it's like, Oh, this isn't this is what the problem was some social media is that it does that doesn't it? And it can make you kind of feel angry about something. And I'm like, I don't want to be watching this and feeling angry chick leaves, you tend to scroll just before you go to sleep. Yeah, and then filed up, you know about issues to do with women, because he knows it's like, it's like, oh, she's got some feminist, you know, feminist views. So give her like, non stop feminist stuff. And then I'm just getting really angry and like, you know, the damn The thing is like, with kids, like no one really prepares you either for what your support is like, and I really struggled. I'm somebody who really enjoys alone time, like, you know, very comfortable in my own time and my own space. And if I'm with people all the time, drives me just insane. I just need some time to just be away for people not talk. And like a very social antisocial person. But then all of a sudden, you've got something with you 24 hours a day. And, and you know, I've never had a baby, I remember them sending me home with her. And I was like, hey, what, you know, I've never had one. All right. Me, me. What happens, you know, needs medical attention. And is that feeling was like, well done. Good job. Off you go. Yes, your person to take home. It's so crazy. And you're going from being able to go to the loo and have a shower and a coffee or just whatever, go to Sainsbury's or you know, a supermarket and just browse the home, or items or whatever. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my god, get in there now get go, go, go, go go grab the essentials, and cheese screen read off because she's suddenly decided she's starving. Then you've got to drop the trolley and then run off to find somewhere. It's like, your bow. I mean, it's just completely different. Just just just like that overnight. Yes, completely. Yep. It's like, Yeah, I had this feeling when I when I left hospital. I thought you saw that I can? Am I Am I okay, doing this? Like, do you don't want to like vet me to make sure it's okay that I can actually do this. Like, if you were adopting, you'd have to add it. So assumption that you'll know what to do. I'm in with this woman. I was because I was very. Yeah, I hadn't been around a lot of kids. When I had my first child. I didn't really know what I was mean, no one knows what they're doing. But I literally didn't know what to do. And I was barfing give gave the baby's first bath. And I was like, have like, how do I wash him? Like, what? Like, how hard do I press? Like, what do I do? And this nurses, just listen to your intuition. You'll know what to do. And I thought, no, but I actually don't know what to do. With you, they're meant to show you in the hospital was like, Oh, no. And there was this, oh, my God, this thing, this sign? Because like, I'm a very, like, I like to know, structure. And like, I'm not as bad now. But when I had when I had Alex, it was like, I wanted to know what was going to happen. Like, what might what to expect with this kid? Like, how's it going to work? How often do I feed him? How long is he going to be sleeping for? And this nurse said to me off every baby's different? And I thought, well, that's a great answer, isn't it? That tells me nothing. And then it's true. Is true, because some of them sleep. Some of them don't. Some of them get colleagues, some of them. It wasn't until I started to work, I work start to work in childcare when Alex went back to school. And I just went, Oh my gosh, now I understand that. She told me but at that time, I just wanted someone to tell me what to do. And of course, no one can tell you what to do. Because no one knows what your kid's gonna be like. I didn't read any of them books either. You know, I just I'm just like, Jenny, what? They don't want to be stressed out by schedule. I'm not somebody who's a brace schedule. I'm totally unscheduled, you know, into the point where it's like, I forget what my schedule is all the time. So I get phone calls. Aren't you supposed to be here now? I'm like shared So I didn't want to be worried about like, Fiji, which I'm Devon and then this time, and it wouldn't have worked with Isla anyway, because I pretty much gaffer taped her onto my chest all day, because that is just what where she wanted to be, and I just didn't do anything else. And my husband would take her so I could just get a break. Yeah, it's like, because as soon as she's on me, she was just routing routing routes all the time. Like, me, basically, is that like a giant passerby? Yeah. Like, it's like, can you have it for a bit and he was so good in the way that he would always as soon as he was there, we would take her and, and it always allowed me to get some rest. I mean, he couldn't do the night feeds. They just refuse. We tried. We tried. I tried, like, you know, the bottles and things just so I could. I was woken up anyway. And I'm somebody, I'm awake. It takes me a really, really long time to get to sleep. So I could then hear him struggling to try and get her to have it and I'm just not it's just not worth it actually, because it's not it's not getting anywhere. I'm not getting any more rest and it's just as as a mommy, you have that. It's a horrible trigger, isn't it? That when you feel hear your baby crying is a primitive, primordial like anxiety that you just triggers like now I can hear a newborn baby crying I'm like Oh, my God, my God. It's just really good. Set all your instincts like heightened alert. Yep, absolutely. And then the physical like your body starts to you start to leap because it's like, right, yeah. I happened in I was in target one time. Alex mom was looking after him when he was a baby. And I heard this baby cry two hours across next minute. My boobs when I'm just like, that's not even my kid. Crying in the shower, and it wasn't even then like you're right. It's like, no, no, no. You know, there's no no, but we have with with my kids. My husband wasn't there. Showering becomes a real luxury. And I remember being trying to shower like a lightning speed. Tape my middle son in a baby bouncer like literally facing me while I'm in the shower. And I'm trying to sing to him. And I'd be like, you know, keeping really happy. It's just like puce in the face. Just so angry to hear you out. So you can see me and obviously can see the boobs. outraged. But little things like that showering, saving yourself. Honestly, either yourself, like, just Adam, my husband would take island just so I could have my food. Yeah, this little things like that. You can't even eat shower, go to the loo like, it's just so relentless. And it's just not prepared for it. Nothing, nothing can prepay for it now. And that's the thing to even if people do try and prepare you for it, you just dismiss it because you get a heart. It can't be that they're not you know, because you've got no idea. wouldn't matter what anybody told you. I remember reading a book and it said about what to do if your baby's fussy or whatever. And I was like, I didn't need to read this, my baby's gonna be perfect. You know, like, just total blissful denial what's about to happen to me, You do kind of think to yourself why like, mostly, this one's gonna love it to none of mine slept No, they were over to just is, it just is what it is, is what it is. I mean, you hear, I've got friends who've got kids that were like five and didn't, you know, didn't sleep through. So you just got to be grateful with your, you know, but my middle, my middle son, he used to get colic and stuff. And that was really horrible. So I was trying to feed him that, you know, the great water and in for coal and all that stuff. Because the worst thing was, even when he was asleep, he would make these noises. So I'd be trying to sleep and I've got this kind of like, you know, little rising thing, and he never wanted to not be close to you. So there was none of this sleeping, you know, in a Bayes net, like, there or like in a car, so I didn't feel comfortable having him in my bed, either. Because I'm worried about suffocating him, especially when you're so tired, that he's just exhausted, I worried like, What if I fall asleep in that role on him or something? So what we did is we took the side of his car and now you can buy these, you know, great inventions, we can actually stick them up at the side of the car and just put it right up against my bed and I had to sleep half hidden his cot half in my bed. And as soon as he was asleep I try and retract you know so like this like a ninja trying to take my spike, but he just sensed it. They sent it like just no longer. Yeah. And I'd wake up and I could barely move my neck and my arm be like dad like pins and needles. Yeah, the things we have to do Hey. Yeah, and they won't remember any of it. Probably for the best to be honest. What those early years, early months or so, so fundamental in a kid's development, like, if you don't do the right things, then never those connections are never formed. And that person never developed the way they're supposed to. So all those little things that you did like all the silly talk, and all the you know, the smiles and all that it's so authentic, and all the code and I think that's it you feel stressed by? Because you feel like you should be doing so many things. Like you know, when you've got a new phone, especially if you've got a toddler as well, it's really it's really difficult. That those cuddles in those first district so quick, like six weeks and it's different, right? Yeah. When tiny, tiny, tiny, and just having those moments like cherish but this snuggled up on you and they smell nice. There. And, you know, it goes so fast. He really does it, really. But my daughter now she's 12 she's gonna be 13 this year, she's the same height as me. She's gonna be taller than me. I'm not I'm not that tall, though. So it's not that hard. But, you know, she's already so grown up. Like, I think people always say, oh, kids are so grown up these days. I think probably, I don't think I think that's probably the same. They just have access to more information these days. That's the best the difference. We didn't have it connected to the world. Yeah, yeah, we just didn't have that. The big piece of me looking at it in my sport shorts. It's, it's called Making my claim. And that was the whole the whole thing about like ties into the feminism and just saying, like, I'm here, like, I'm a woman, I'm here. I'm a mother. You know, I'm of a certain age, society kind of discards you, when you reach a certain age. In a way, it's the same that I'm making my claim. I'm here. I want to be a contender. And have the ambitions is something that's often you know, it's kind of, oh, she's ambitious, too. You know, it's like in negativity. When it comes to a woman. They say, It's okay to be ambitious. Like, it's okay. You should be good. And it's okay to put your own your own needs. Not above everybody. I don't believe that. It's like, oh, my needs first because I'm a mother and No, but my needs are there, though. They're there. And then we met, it shouldn't be the chocolate into this because that's just not how it's just not how any family. Yeah, it's the same with like, you know, a kid you can't get your needs matter above everybody else's, like all the time, because you're gonna grow up with this kind of little dictator. Compromising like compromising just so everybody's living, you know, nice, happy, happy. Exactly. Everyone's getting their needs met, but no one to the detriment of anyone else. And it's, you're not setting Anyone up for, you know, failure through their life by think making them think that they they're up here and everyone else is down here. And, you know, ya know, it's like about going to what you want everything as well. And that understanding that not everybody's on the same, you know, not everyone's running the same race, as well as there's things that you can be a really hard worker, but you'll never get to the point that somebody else will be more privileged perspective will reach it's just not it's just not how the world works. And that's, that's just it. It's horrible. And we're fighting for change. We're fighting for, you know, saying just by being present on social media and having a platform being a woman and showing our faces and showing our art and encouraging other women to do the same then at least we're doing a little bit to get it in the right direction. Absolutely. And the more more people that do it, it just, you know, it just builds on itself and just keeps keeps going and going to one day it happens yeah. Somebody said to me recently who's your main competitor, like in Singapore and tell me I'm touched is because he can't, if someone likes a piece you can't go up while they're in the process of buying someone else's piece and be like, weather my mind they just see, there's no such thing as competitors, you can be like, better known, so you'll fight for your spec market, because we have to, you know, it's like that. But you can't, you can't fight to be, you know, for somebody to buy a piece that they're going to buy someone else's. And it's like, actually, this is quite unique in that way. This what we're doing as artists, we really, really support each other. Yeah, yeah. And learn from each other as well. There's so much learning and I say, actually, I learned so much from Instagram, like, full of inspiration, getting inspired all the time. So I did a post recently, I have to say, like, you know, massive props to all the artists that are doing that stuff together and giving it to us for free. You know, it's, it's free, and we can see not just a couple of paintings a year a show. Yeah, you know what I wish we would have done 10 years ago, whatever. Yeah. thing that you'd be posts from people's people's practice. It's, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. And it's been such a pleasure chatting with you squint so lovely. We could chat all day. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Jennifer Donohue Irish painter and writer S3 Ep92 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week Im pleased to welcome Jennifer Donohue to the podcast, Jennifer is an painter and writer from County Clare in Ireland and a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid-20s working in print journalism before returning to college to get a degree in Marketing and Management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created art. Although she loved the act of painting, loved trying to create pretty work and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness, it was lacking in something and it wasn’t until she started back writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. Once she began writing more often, a funny thing happened – she began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there, emerged the new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in paint - and a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poem/prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood - the love, the grief, the loss, the happiness, and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through land and seascapes, botanical art and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked deeper meaning in her art and she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. **This episode contains discussion around pregnancy loss, miscarriage and grief** Jennifer - Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. Apologies for my voice at the moment. I'm just cut recovering from a bout of pneumonia coupled with COVID-19 diagnosis. So things have been fun lately, but I am getting there. And I'm pleased to be able to bring this episode to you today. This week. I welcome Jennifer Donahue to the podcast. Jennifer is a painter and a writer from County Clare in Ireland and she's a mother of one. Jennifer found journalism early on and was taken by the concept of creating through the written word. She spent her early to mid 20s working in print journalism, before returning to college to get a degree in marketing and management. For years, Jennifer struggled to make an authentic connection to why she created her art. Although she loves the act of painting, love trying to create pretty work, and it gave her a sense of relaxation and happiness. It was lacking in something. It wasn't until she started writing again in 2022 that something clicked in her brain. When she began writing more often a funny thing happened. She began seeing her experiences of motherhood in the form of poems and prose. And from there emerged a new sense that she had to transfer these written pieces to Canvas. Pictures emerged that linked her words and emotions to shapes and ideas in the paint. And a whole new connection to her art has come from that. Jennifer works intuitively and allows the poems and prose to lead the way on how the art will emerge. She makes space for all of the emotions of motherhood, the love, the grief, the loss, and the happiness and tries to share them in a relatable and hopefully beautiful way. Primarily her subject matter reveals itself through landscapes, and seascapes, botanical art, and some abstract work. Jennifer's motherhood journey has really sparked a deeper meaning in her art. And she has discovered connection and community with others by sharing visual and written accounts of her journey so far. Please be aware that this episode today contains discussion around pregnancy loss and miscarriage and grief. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Jennifer. It's really lovely to meet you. Yes, and thanks so much for having me. I'm very excited. It's my pleasure. And I've got to say I'm very very grateful of all the sharing of posts and and things that you do with my podcast on Instagram. I really appreciate it very much. Oh, no budget at all, I think well, I look as I said at dinner I love listen to podcasts and you know, some of the guests you've had on are absolutely amazing, amazing women. I mean, you know, these are definitely stories, you know, you want to share out and the little share on Instagram, you know when you can I mean? All of it helps as much ya know. And honestly, it means so much like I don't know, I think yeah, I don't know. It can seem so simple but it makes such a difference and I'm really appreciate it so thank you for that. So we were just I was just saying before I hit record how much I love your your Irish accent. Thanks very much. Tell me about where you're from in Ireland. Yeah, so I live in County Clare. So a little town called Ennis though it's about 10 Tails. It's the biggest town and clear but it's only about 10 15,000 people. So by Australian Standard is Like teeny teeny tiny place. But so if anybody you know, maybe your side of the world might be familiar with like the Cliffs of Moher, maybe you might have heard of that. Yeah, glyphs. Evolver is in County Clare. So that's maybe about 30 minutes from where I live. And originally, Originally, I'm from West Limerick, which is about an hour's drive south of here. Yeah, right. I've been in this for 10 years. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. It's actually there was a horse that came out here for the Melbourne Cup one year called cliffs have more. I'm saying it right. But yeah, so yeah, I said that. I just went, Oh, yeah, I know that name. Yeah. So yeah, a lot. A lot of people who don't? They've heard it before. So it's kind of a good landmark to give people an idea. It's, it's on the west coast of the country. Yeah. Right. Are you very north, or we're about sort of a year. So no, were very kind of nearly middle of the country. And kind of the rest of us. Yeah, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I'm getting getting good visual. Somewhere. I'd really love to go. I think I watched a lot of Father Ted many years. Oh, yeah. And I just did you get did you get? Did you get to did you get to humor? Oh, you've watched? I've watched five to 10 Australians and you're like, watch this. No, I loved it. I absolute because I was a fan of auto auto handling and been a fan of him for a while. And just like anything he does, I just I just laugh at him. I just think he's hilarious. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's that other show I did was like Inferno man or third semi man or something. And it was just so ridiculous. But so funny. But now we've got this running joke. Now. You know, the episode where the heat. Ted has to keep Bishop Brennan up the ass. Oh, yeah. Bridget printed up the arse. And we have this joke. Now, if anyone gets kicked on the bottom, my little son who's seven you go, Oh, he's Bishop Brennan is good or bad. But it's very funny. hilarious. Hilarious. So yeah. Anyway, enough of that I could go on and on, but I'm not going to All right, so tell me how you got into your art form. And tell us about what you're doing what you create. So yeah, sure. So I suppose look, I suppose like a lot of people kind of being creative was really important to me, kind of growing up, we were always in really encouraged. You know, like drawing art. I remember one year, Santa Claus bought me this fantastic V tech digital art team. And it was just kind of, you know, you know, sometimes presence just kind of stand out, you're grateful and doing doing it. And, and then when I was a teenager, I did work experience in my local newspaper. And I was like, hang on a minute, people get paid to write. So I just, I just fell in love with the idea of journalism and writing because I loved English and, you know, typical teenager, you know, trying to write stories and novels and all this, you know, wishing for it was actually finished. But you know, you kind of keep writing away, you know, and so I actually did journalism was my first career. And so it was an I did journalism for a couple of years. And I just loved it. I just love being able to write I love to creativity, I love meeting people I loved, you know, just a whole, just the whole idea of it, that you could kind of come up with these ideas and get them on paper and, you know, influence people and people would, you know, read them and, you know, be inspired by them. And, yeah, it was fantastic. It was fantastic. And then in my early 20s, I did a lot of Irish people do and I would love to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Australia, realized that, okay, I don't have a degree. If I want to get back to Australia for longer, you know, you need to have a degree. So I came back to Ireland, and I said, I do a degree in marketing management. You know, I said, marketing is creative. You don't you do something in business. Yeah. And so I did that kind of my mid 20s. And then of course, by the time I'd have three years done, I was like, Oh, come back to Australia. I loved it, but you know, you're kind of starting again. And so it was like, okay, look, I'll get some experience here. So then I kind of fell into kind of marketing and kind of sales roles and the creativity went out the door. Like, you know, the writing, I had been dabbling in bit of art and do a bit of art, like, I don't art in school, I loved art, you know, these are all true, you know, kind of primary and secondary schools. So up to the age of 18, you know, loved it kind of dabbled in art and a little bit afterwards, but it kind of went to the wayside. And then, in 2018, I did an art class, just in the local when it local colleges here, you know, so it was just, you know, it was just a temporary course. And I was like, Oh, God, I really liked this. So, you know, so did I started kind of going back into it, and, you know, just just doing just tried to create, but I suppose, like, a lot of people, you know, I was forcing myself into doing what I thought was, you know, good, Eric, you know, like, if it wasn't detailed, or if it wasn't, blah, blah, blah, you know, didn't wasn't kind of good art. So I just didn't have an understanding of me as a creative as an artist as a visual creative. So, you know, so I was trying to do a lot of things that were completely out of my range, you know, skill level wise, and that kind of thing. But I kept doing because I was getting, I suppose, emotional fulfillment out of it, you know, it was a nice pastime. And, you know, it was kind of getting back their creative, creative spark again, you know, and then we had our Kate Connor in 2019. So, you know, so I was still kind of doing like, little bit of art kind of here and there. And I started doing things like hashtag challenges. So I set up an Instagram page for my art. And, you know, it wasn't that my art was brilliant. But I liked sharing with it, I like connecting with other artists with other creatives and that kind of thing. So it gave me this kind of outlet to kind of appreciate life and art and, you know, just having something I suppose for myself as well, you know, that kind of thing, you know, and so, yeah, so I was doing kind of hashtag challenges. And then I was finding this, you know, teams were starting to, you know, my act was kind of improving, and that kind of thing. And I was like, brilliant. But I still had no kind of, I suppose, connection with my art. And I suppose that's what kind of motherhood has in a roundabout way given me is my connection to my art, especially in the last year. The real value of my art I found over the last couple of years. Now, I know you mentioned trigger warnings. So I suppose I can do trigger warning here. Yeah, so miscarry, though, I'm bringing it up, because it's a definite part of my kind of creative kind of journey. Yeah. So I had my first miscarriage in August 2020. So it's 11 weeks, everything had been fine. Until it wasn't. And so I kind of turned to her again. And, you know, it was kind of giving me that little bit of hockey meat, I you know, I could just do something for myself. And decorating. And a dead saw. got pregnant again. And 22, early 2021 turned round, you know, and I started, you know, I'm just doing some hashtag challenges. And, unfortunately, I had another miscarriage. So go ahead. It's okay. Well, look, I look, I suppose. And look, if you do want to ask questions, I'm happy to answer questions. I bring this up, because it is part of my journey. And it's important to talk about these things, because I don't know, if it's the same in Australia and Ireland. We don't really talk about these things. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know, as women as creatives as moderators, you know, these are all part of our journeys. This, you know, you don't you don't talk about, you know, it's kind of, certainly in Ireland, you know, we're like, don't tell anybody, you're pregnant for the first 12 weeks in case something happens. And then you're like, well, if something happens, how are you supposed to bring it up with a woman? Well, I was pregnant, and now I'm not, you know, it's very difficult. It's very difficult, you know, when trying to find a way of dealing with that, you know, especially when you're dealing with didn't know your own, you know, like, you can tell, suppose your friends and obviously your partner and that kind of thing, but it is difficult and you're like trying to find reasons, you know, working through the motions, and I suppose that's very my kind of art and so I've kind of committed as well, you know, it's just helping me discover To me, you don't like kind of just end. But, um, but give yourself something of your own as well, you know, that wasn't, you know, so I currently don't sell my art. So it's like, it's just something for me to enjoy and something to do and that kind of thing. And then. So yeah, so I actually did a core stem with lower heart. So she's an Australian artist over in Adelaide. Yeah. And so So yeah, so I did one of her courses, and you know, and it was just so nice and gentle. And, you know, just had a little community was really nice. You know, it was just like, oh, and it kind of started to open up my eyes, in terms of what my art was doing and what my art could be. So I was like, okay, so we started on that path. And then I had a turd miscarriage. Oh, gosh, in April in April of 2021. All these years just kind of rolling together. Yeah. And, and that was, that was a chemical pregnancy. And that went on for about three months, dealing with the kind of physical repercussions of that. And I was just like, footsy, like, you know, so but, you know, I started doing 100 Edge challenge. So I was like, Okay, I have something to focus on. You know, I was kind of doing away doing the art way. And then it's only been kind of, I suppose, in the last year, then that I've kind of made the actual true connection between motherhood and my art. And suppose this what all the rigmarole stories kind of leading up to? It started 2022 as like, okay, no, I'm just giving myself permission. Okay, we are, you know, we decided, okay, we're not going to try for more kids are done, we're going to, you know, we have one, we're very blessed, very happy. And, you know, I put decided, okay, look, physically, emotionally, spiritually, it's okay to see we're done. And again, I again, I think that's another message that I want to kind of portray in my act and share out in general, because, you know, we're always like, Oh, no, you know, your mother, you should suffer or your whatever, and you should push past your own emotions and your own needs and wants, because, you know, obviously, you know, like, I know, you talk about mom guilt, obviously, wrongly consented to, you're like, Oh, my God, you know, it's going to be an only child. What does that mean? You know, should I just, you know, push myself aside and blah, blah, blah. But I think we have to say, okay, you know, fight sometimes it's okay to say enough. Yes, say, you know, what we're doing. And I suppose giving myself permission to, you know, really listen to myself and my needs, yeah, suddenly opened up things in my art that I had absolutely no awareness of no concept of No, even now, I'm still trying to figure out what it all means. I started back writing, and I started a blog. And then I started writing poems. I don't write poems. But I started writing poems, I started writing prose about motherhood, about, you know, the joy of finding out about you're pregnant. And, you know, the excitement of, you know, you know, giving birth and saying hello to your new child about things like being nap trapped, you know, you're stuck on your baby, and you just absolutely can't move, you know? So I started writing about all this stuff. And I don't know where it came from. Would it just, it was like, everything that I've been kind of doing belong had kind of mashed together, and just suddenly was like, oh, here because I gave myself permission to, you know, listen to myself more just on the argument. And I started, you know, creating different artwork and pieces, based on the poems and prose. Yeah, so I just, yeah, so it's just been, it's just kind of been crazy, as well as try to understand that over the last kind of couple of months, it's only been maybe within the last year. I've really kind of been able to gather the pieces and kind of put them all together and it's been really fun and exciting and it's also helped Me, you know, understand other areas of my life and kind of get centered in other areas of my life. And also, I suppose, you know, like the value of art and creativity in that sense, you know, it can't be underestimated. And I think that's what I really, really fell with that is just kind of like, you know, I feel understood, I feel heard and seen. And it's so funny, like, when I share, you know, it's really hard, it's easier to share the artwork than it is to share the kind of pools and pools and liquidity, but I find that when I share board together, that people are like, oh, yeah, yeah, I've, like felt like that, or, you know, I know where you're coming from, or definitely, you know, so it's that kind of sharing of experiences and decorating that, sometimes, we are always happy to talk about the happy stuff, you know, finding out you're pregnant, it's like, you know, sharing the new baby that can take you on, but the harder stuff is not really shared. And it's really sad. And just, you know, it's just part of the human experience. It is what it is. And, you know, so I kind of tried to share a little bit of everything. Well, I love that look. Honestly, I think that's so it's so important to, for us to be able to talk about the stuff that doesn't go so well, like, for so long. And like previous generations, it's like, oh, no, you know, don't talk about that. We don't talk about that everything's got to be seen to be, you know, just fine. Everyone's got to be, you know, they try this image that we're all coping and everything's great. And it's like, no, enough is enough. Like, I think that's half the reason people have so much trouble with, like mental illness or issues with their, with their health is that they, they feel stifled that they can't talk about things. And it's so important. And thank you so much for sharing so openly. Something I really believe in is that any, like, we could share one thing, and we have no concept of how many people that could make a difference for. So I think you can like never underestimate the power of, of sharing your story. And yeah, thank you for I really appreciate your honesty, like you are starting to get really emotional, when you're talking about how everything came together, when you just said, Enough is enough. It's time literally to listen to yourself. And then it all just came together. And it's like this, this whole thing has opened up, I don't even know how to describe it. But like a thing has opened up. And it's all this amazingness is happening. I don't know how to describe it. And this is one of the moments I'm probably headed out. But you know what I mean? Like, nobody would know, I do know what you mean, and it is important. But you know, sometimes I feel a bit weird sharing it and being open about it. Because, like, for so long, I didn't talk about it. So I didn't. So the first miscarriage happened in August 2020. And I didn't tell anybody about anything that was going on, you know, bear my immediate family, you know, my husband's immediate family. And like one or two friends. I eventually shared a post on my personal Instagram in October 2021. And like this was after we'd met, I met a consultant. So we've got miscarriage clinic and med consultant, you know, to kind of see if we can kind of figure out what was going on. And it was after that ended, I just shared and you know, like, one of my friends was like, we're like, you know, over the course of a year, like you were, you know, you were pregnant for six months, which you were, you know, physical miscarriage, you know, for about three, four months of it. And did you know, and you didn't share anything? And I was like, Yeah, you know, so many women do that. And the minute I shared the post, the amount of women that I was friends with, you know, either on Instagram or Facebook, private message me she's like, Oh, Jen, yeah, you know, I had the same experience, or, you know, I just after having one, or, you know, that kind of thing did happen a couple of years ago when they hadn't shared anything, really. And it's really sad because it is currently you know, it's one in four. We you know, and it is difficult, it is difficult to talk about, and some people can't talk about it, and that's fine. But if you can talk about it. I think sharing your experience and saying that you know what, look, it's shit. But you you will be okay. You know, it kind of helps people who can talk about it maybe so. Yeah, now Good Feet on Reddit look, honestly, I'm I don't want to sound condescending. But what you're doing is fantastic. Really? Good. No, I'm really yeah. Sorry. Like, nice feel like you're awesome. I love it. Yeah, but, but like, in general. It's just and it was, you know, I mean, it was giving that myself that permission to be like, okay, They will look. You know, it is it is what it is like, we can keep going. But, you know, we have happy situation, you know, we have a great kid. I mean, he's absolutely amazing. It's just turned four. Yeah. And he's better look for, you know, and we're like, look, sometimes, you know, it's important more, you know, it's just as important to have happy healthy parents for kids. Yes. You know, that kind of thing. And it's like, and it's very easy to feel like you need to martyr yourself. You know, yeah. And maybe marriage was too strong word, you know, post, you know, it's like, it's important in the Ford picture, and it's all key to take into a picture. You know, I think I think we need you know, so I think it was it was giving myself that permission and didn't suddenly, because I'd been kind of doing the art all along. It just suddenly, like, you know, it just exploded, and it's just, it's just so nice. And it's just, like, it's an outlet for me, it's, you know? Yeah, look, it's just it is, it's a beautiful outlet. You know, you can connect with amazing people like you, like, you know, all people, women, amazing women that you've had on the podcast, you know, I mean, listening to their stories, you know, it's, it's really inspiring, you know, and you know, that you're not alone. And in order to have this thing that you could share with the world, and it's, it's fun, it's fun. After a long day, it's fun to be able to pick pick up paint brush, you know, I work primarily in, like acrylics at the moment, I'm doing most of my stuff on canvas. And it's fun, it's fun, just to see where things go. And you can just, you know, I do like, it's funny, because every, you know, like, so I started off with the kind of poem and prose, and then it just kind of turns into something, you know, I have no idea what is going on, you know, I kind of started to see pictures and stuff in my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, and it kind of, kind of take it in certain directions. And from there, you know, says, interesting, it's, you know, when it's yeah, it's, it's colorful, and it's you look, it's, it's important to use the right side of our brain and to kind of user behind us and, you know, our, you know, our voices or whatever, whatever, it's up to you. You're, you know, this, it's bringing forward and just go with it, you know, Oh, absolutely. I think it's it, like any sort of creativity, I think is just vital for human beings to have something, you know, like you said that, that other side of your brain, and, you know, I like, like you say, like, it is fun, it's a, it's a switch off. Like, it allows us to process things like you've talked about, but the act of, you know, we think I work in childcare, and or not anymore. Sorry, I work in kindy. I worked in childcare for nine years. So I mean, early childhood education, and like, the kids love to paint. And it's like, when, why do we stop this stuff? You know, I know, most, like most adults don't paint unless they, you know, artists, they'll call themselves out. So they're like, Yeah, we don't draw, you know, most of us stop running around and being silly or whatever, it's like, you get to this point, you're an adult, now you have to grow up and act or serious. Like, you're fine. And we have. Yeah, like, I think if I working with kids is so good from for me and my mental health, because it is so fun, and it's so enjoyable, and you get your true authentic self, you know, you can't hide behind, like the kids will see right through you, if you've got some sort of a laugh, and you get to joke around and be silly and engage. It's just so it is so much fun. Like, it's an it's important for adults to play. Yeah. And to kind of, you know, like, you know, for whatever format that comes out, and, and, you know, what I think it's, I think nowadays is more kind of acceptable, you know, like, you know, people do art, you know, if the computer games, if it's music, if it's seeing if it's, you know, reading and that kind of thing, it's, you know, I think it's starting to become more acceptable to have a range of, you know, hobbies or that kind of thing, you all so you have work and so if you're not, but it's important, it's important to our sense, our sanity. Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely. To be able to switch off to have something for yourself to have something that you can you know, kind of just relax into and you know, you can enjoy. Yeah, yeah, and like, I guess people, you know, have really stressful jobs or as, as moms it can get quite overwhelming sometimes and That level of stress gets to have something that's not stressful. And that is just really enjoyable and fun is, yeah, it's so important, so important for us. Like, for me, it's just having to have it if I, if I can switch off, you know, my, like, every other modern day, you know, your brain is going 100 miles an hour, you're taking this and that and, you know, you're trying to organize, and you're trying to be 10 steps ahead of yourself. And you're also trying to remember the stuff that you were supposed to do, when did you do all this stuff? And so you're just like, Okay, no, you know, it's just have some time to switch off, have some time for yourself, and be able to give yourself permission to enjoy it and just be like, oh, you know, what? Happier parents, you know, doing whatever little thing did you like to do for you just doesn't have to contribute in any way to anything. Auditing yourself is also important. Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Your son, you said he's four. Does he like to come in? And do painting with you as well? Yeah, yeah. So what we do is, we alternate bedtime routines, because my son has like a to our bedtime routine, where he's like, you know, you have to play and read and do this, and then you eventually get him to do his teeth, you know, put on his pajamas and that kind of thing. So we moved him into his big room last year, so I took over a little box room for my art space. Yeah. You know, so like, he came in, he's a box of stuff now, you know, of his own teams, and he'd come in, and we'll do a bit of art, you know, or we do some at the weekend, you know, he loves, you know, he just loves to crack, he loves, you know, kind of painting and that kind of stuff, you know, so it's, and it's great fun, and it's nice, quality time that I can spend with them. You know, sometimes, sometimes we just take over the whole kitchen table, you know, the pages they refer, and we're mixing up paint, and, you know, he's learning about the primary colors, and he's talking about this, that, you know, oftentimes, it's important for our kids to, you know, because they're learning, they're learning to create, they're, you know, they're learning stuff, you know, certain language documents associated with, you know, art and creativity, and they're tapping into that, and they're, like, they're naturally in tune with, you know, they enjoy certain things, you know, that kind of thing. And it's just their imagination, they're playing events, you know, it's, and it's a nice way for us as, as adults to connect with them. Via that, you know, so yeah, like, he'll come in even, you know, he'll come in and do a bit or, you know, if I'm just starting on the canvas, you know, I get him to help me, you know, get all lit up, and, you know, put some colors. And, you know, and he's like, when you're Kansas Mama's like, Yeah, but you're alone? No, you know, so you have to set the rooms, you know, if I'm working on the canvas, you know, there's some canvases you can touch with some of them something that you've kind of nearly finished, and you're like, Oh, no. No, that wouldn't be good for anyone. But that's true that, you know, setting boundaries, that's an important thing to do with kids. You know, I feel like, sometimes parents are scared to say no to their children, or to say no, actually, this is my you can't do this. It's so important for kids to learn that and for them, for them to then know that it's okay for them to have things that other people don't do, or you know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, but that's it, but input and they understand, if you explain to them understand they understand more than we give them credit for? Absolutely, yes. You know, like, if you, if you say to them, Look, no, you know, notice this one is mom's but this one is yours. And you you know, you can do what you want to do so, and I've given him like, there's a couple of my kind of old small canvases that I've given him. So he's delighted with that, and he can paint over them, and he could do this and that, you know, so he has his box itself. And, you know, like, sometimes I let him use some of my paints and He's pure, happy, you know. And it's kind of, you know, it encourages that bond between you and you can also Like you say, it's, you know, you can create your boundaries within this and, you know, and it's good for both of you, you know, I can now having my little fella come in and paint with me, was so good for me to learn to like, just relax a bit and not be so stressed about certain things being perfect. Or, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, oh, no, don't touch that one. Don't and it was like, actually, what does it mean? If he uses that pain, like it was sort of getting things into perspective for me, so it's definitely helped him that way to not stress so and then, once you learned, like you say about different things like, you can paint on this, but don't paint on that. Or if you're going to use these paints, make sure you've got something under it, or whatever it is, once you have that set up, it's like, you can sort of relax a bit and go, Okay, that's cool. He knows not to put that one on the carpet or something, you know? Is that initial setting up? Yes. I can now can relax. Yeah, yeah. But but but that's it. And you know, like, and we can learn from kidssoup when it comes to art, you know, I mean, like, like, you see, you know, they might pull out a painted, you're like, oh, no, that's a good paint. No, I can't use that, you know, might have satin, you might have said practically on us for last three years. It's like, don't use paint, yes to paint. Like, buy more if you you know, use it or, you know, yeah. You know, and just and just go for it and just kind of let yourself loose and let your you know, let yourself imagine and, you know, go with this, you know, that's it. Yeah, that's, that's, you know, that's is definitely lesson we've learned from our kids and just go for it. And just enjoy and just, you know, it's the only boundaries in your art are created by you. Yeah, you know, when you think about it, we are where it wants to set the boundaries, you know, and the limitations. So, you know, we don't have to stay in sight lines if we don't want to, Hmm, let's see, isn't it? Yeah, that's one of the things that took me a long time to get over. But even just making like the choices that I make, when I'm painting, if I can think more like my son, when he paints and not overthink everything so much, like, that's been a good lesson for me to just, yeah, I don't know, I think you can be in your head so much questioning yourself. And like the self doubt and the imposter syndrome, all this stuff, that's all in your mind. And it's like, if you just if you switch off and be like a kid would be, they don't think about all that stuff. They don't think Oh, is someone going to like this, or if I'd done this bit rash, or, you know, we could learn so much from them? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. That's what I found to put, you know, when I started kind of going back painting, what I found was just, I was like, Oh my God, if I don't make this, you know, kind of really realistic looking, or really intricate, looking, you know, are really perfect looking, you know, people aren't gonna like it. And I was trying to force myself into skill level for I was definitely not at, you know, that kind of thing. It didn't it was like, it got really frustrating. So, why can't I do this? Yes, yeah. You know, when I, when I decided to let it go, like I am, you know, I don't paint realistically, if, you know, if you love photo, realistically, you know, if you look at my painting, you know, you know, it's, you know, it's a painting, you're not going to think that you're looking at a photograph, you know, you're not only Samaritan's Purse, like Amazingly, the detail and, you know, the texture and everything they achieve, you know, so once they kind of accepted it, no look, just go and play. And I found this things like the hashtag challenges. And kinda you know, it really, like, it opened up, you know, my eyes kind of flat you could do and just kind of let go of this perfectionism and try to just start to listen, just listen to what's in me, because, you know, we all connect with other people, you know, different things about everybody's work, we'll connect with other people. So you know, my arch with, you know, a Pete some people and other people will be like, that isn't dirt. What are you talking about? You know, that kind of thing, you know? So, so yeah, but, you know, it's all open to interpretation. And, you know, nobody's necessarily right or wrong, but it's, you know, it's, as long as it's making you happy, you know, and like, obviously, you know, I mean, I don't currently send my work. So it's funny, when I got a message from you on Instagram, I was like, imposter syndrome. No, I can't talk about Oh, my God. I was just like, as like, oh, no, she might take the day. She said, My work is so my, this just, you know, like, something that I'm not and I was just like, Well, no, look, you know, I call myself narratives. So I create our own, you know, you know, regular basis, you know, I mean, I Yes, the ultimate team is I would love to start selling my work. Maybe I went this year, maybe I get over myself and for that impostor syndrome to decide and be like, no, okay, you know, I kind of ready but, you know, I've viewed it like, I'm in art school. I'm sad. Tod artists, I'm currently in our school of life. And, you know, and I'm just enjoying it a lot. You know, I think when you give yourself space and to explore and that kind of thing, you know, you do find your kind of truer, authentic voice. And kind of, I feel like I've kind of started to tap into that, but it's only because I've given myself space. And obviously, it's easy for me to say, because, you know, I mean, I worked full time in a non articulated, you know, area. So, you know, I don't have to worry about that. So it's like, I can play, I can give myself space, and that kind of thing, energy isn't so important. And, you know, it doesn't matter whether whether it's your full time job, or a part time job, or, you know, your hobby, can give your space set space to be creative to, you know, do what you want to do. And it's all valid. Yeah, that's it, that's so true. We sort of mentioned the monkey earlier in regards to having one child, how do you feel about it? When it comes to art? Do you feel any of that? Sort of those emotions? And that time? No, no, I think because, okay, because I work full time anyway. Like, demand guilt is, you know, kept from my full time job, you know, because, you know, it's like, you know, you know, so, you know, like, there are like, cases, you know, where you're just like, you feel so bad, you know, leaving, like I kind of went through a phase last year. Where he because I started work at 10, seven, and morning. So you know, so I start really early, and I finished in at, you know, have three, so I have to be awkward, I kind of have five quarter to six American, he started, he was having a face where he get up with me and didn't want to leave, he bought his eyes out. And my poor husband didn't know, I'll be dealing with this. And, you know, I feel so guilty, you know, going out to work and him crying, and you're leaving for me hard to deal with this. And you're just like, Oh my God. You know, like, look, it was a face you got over it, it's fine. You know, you know, that kind of thing. But they're like, look, you can see Mom relatable, so much. So much different things. And it's so hard, you know, and I suppose you know, it might, you know, it'll show up differently for me to new and, you know, that kind of thing. But there's always I feel like there's always something to feel guilty about you like, Oh, God, am I doing enough? I mean, you know, this mother is doing this, or, you know, you're you're looking at social media, like, Oh, my God, you're doing like, you know, these fantastic, you know, things and they're going out every weekend and look at, look at how they're living life. And we're like, you know, I'm sitting on the floor playing Duplo instead of, you know, taking out some fancy, whatever, you know, adventure park or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. What is it but it doesn't matter, as long as you're happy lungs, your family or, you know, happy you know, you have to you have to let go of that. And it's really, really hard sometimes, you know, because you're just like, Oh, God, you know, I should be doing more. But no, I think once you let go of kind of that, and do your best as all you can do. And you're always going to feel guilty about sorting, because there's always something that you could probably be doing a bit better. Yeah. You know, you're only human, you can only do so often. It's like, it's I think manga is just it just goes with the territory, you know? Yes. I don't know if you ever get over it at all. Maybe Maybe you do eventually, hopefully. Get that's the thing like is if you're not doing one thing, you think I should be doing that. And then if you're doing that thing, you think I should be doing that. And it's just this constant thing that plays out in your mind. Yeah. And I get I get points where I'm like, No, don't think that. Like, don't don't worry about that, you know, but then you find like, 10 minutes later, something else will happen. And you'll be like, Oh, it's just so yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. But that's it. And it's hard and it doesn't matter. It's just, it's just constant. So you just you do you have to let it go with you came and I wrote this poem. Just about just literally, literally, it was about debt. I actually probably should have brought it down. So I was like, the last line was like, Don't give me your shoots because they're not going to carry and it's true. And it's like, you know, what's, you know? Like, what's valid for you and your family? Your kids? You know, isn't that sincerity was going to be valid for mine and this kind of entity is hard because you're you are seeing people do you know XY and Z? And you're like, oh, maybe I should maybe I should do that. Or, you know, society you feel like society's expecting certain things from you. There's maybe you're not. Maybe you know, it's not suitable for your family and you just do what's right for you what's right for your family and trust yourself this, you're doing the best you can. That's it, isn't it? Having that confidence in yourself to say actually, no, I don't need to be going and doing x y Zed that such and such. Oh, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, like at the moment here at home. Much to my disgust my loungeroom my good Landrieu is being taken over by a big game of monopoly that seems to be never ending. Like monopoly and we just got home this morning. We played my son plays tennis my little little work. And they had a social day for like parents or family or whoever to play. And they put us in all in teams, this mixed doubles teams. I haven't played tennis I think properly for like, I don't know. Honestly, 15 years like a long time, but it was great fun. I really enjoyed it. And we had a great heat and everything and then I got home. All I do is sit on the couch and have wrist. Yes, this monopoly game just looking at me like ah, should be playing this game. I wanted gone out of my of my lounge. I want to finish this guy. And then degree my little fella comes, Hi, Joe. I'm playing Monopoly. I'm like, if I can lay down on the floor, I'll play. But you know what I mean? Like there's always something out and I and it's like, sometimes you just gotta put your blinkers on and go No, I actually, this is where my focus is. This is what I want to be thinking of now and the rest can just disappear. That's it, but let's put guaranteed, right? It's the things we're like, oh, God, we shouldn't be doing that. So your game of monopoly is something that your kids are going to remember to be bringing in open if you remember when we played that monopoly game that lasted for like 10 weeks, and we just take every single day. And you know, and it was probably you know, it's best for you know, so it's just yeah, it's just you know, for kids just wanted to keep just want you to connect with them. Kids want you to play with them, you know, again on the floor, you know, do you know connect with them? Forever. We do like to be connected with you know, like mean, Connor, you know, we pay so much to glow and he's big into Ghostbusters. Now we're not sure if we're to Ghostbusters thing came from but like he's like, you know, like, literally like Ghostbusters, and it's old school Ghostbusters from like, our childhood, you know, the 90s Like, you know that Ghostbusters? Yeah. And that's all he does all he wants to do. He just wants you just just sit down play with him. And, you know, it's just, you know, and those are the things that they remember. They don't necessarily, you know, to be to be crazy things. It's like the small connections that you can make the on day, you know, whether it's true play or creativity or music or, you know, that kind of thing, though, those are the things that they remember. And you remember and you know, so it's kind of Yeah, but it's hard because you're trying to you know, you're like oh my god the kitchen the state and obtained loads of laundry. And that's exactly, you know, you're trying to you're trying to find the balance someplace between all of us. And sometimes it works sometimes, you know, so some weeks, some weeks I know I fight even though I'm like, I'm totally on top of this, you know, papers and started you know, we're playing and then the next week is just an absolute shit show. And you're like, what? Yeah, no balance. I find that it does go it goes in flows. Like it's never like, I don't know if sometimes, like a clean up. And I think I'm gonna keep this really clean. Like what? Lately I've been doing my cupboard. Make sure I put everything back away after I finished wearing it or put the line the shoes back up. So like, how long is this going to last for your record? It's not going too bad. But yeah, nothing are fine with me anyway, it's always it ebbs and flows, ebbs and flows. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You do. You just have to go with it. And you just have to just try to give yourself a bit of grace and say, Okay, well, look, it is what it is. Let's just, you know, make the best. That's it. Isn't it being kind to ourselves? I think that's yeah, that's sort of the underlying thing that I think always get back to in these conversations is just, we've just got to be kinder to ourselves, you know, give us a carousel some slack and yeah, not be so quick. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Cuz there's, like, there's always this weight of expectation of, you know, you could have how you can do doing things differently. But I suppose like that you just have to try and connect with yourself and You know, with your partner and with your kids and pots, rice, what's right for you? You know, and just go from there. It's really all you can do is, yeah, that's it easy so with your artwork at the moment, what sort of what? Where do you gather your inspiration from at the moment? Is it still working through the emotions of of losing the babies? Or is it more day to day? Things that you feel? It's, it's mostly, it's mostly day to day, like, you know, I mean, I like as I say, like, I think it's important to address all the emotions. So, you know, motherhood isn't, you know, just joy, it is grief, there is loss, whether whether you've lost pregnancies or lost, or, you know, I mean, there's a sense of, you know, like, you lose yourself a little bit, you know, because you gain a new you, you know, and push, like, like I was saying, you know, so like I did want about being that tract, and, you know, to painting does emerge from it is this big, massive waterfall basin, because we were in Iceland last year, so space and one of the waterfalls there, it's this big, massive waterfall, and two big rocks, and loads of flowers, and this really colorful in this light, you know, so you're not trapped. So you're stuck, you know, between a rock and a hard place, and just like the end of the end of the team, you know, the whole poem is like, you know, do I need to pee, you know, but I'm not trapped. So I can't, you know, it doesn't matter, you know, and you're trying to kind of go through all the emotions, you know, so you're, like, oh, there's somebody at the door, but I'm not trapped, I can't get up to or, you know, watch for the TV, because, you know, I'm not trapped. I can't, you know, I should really shower, eat or do laundry, but I'm not trapped. And in the end of it is like, what's that? What's my bladder, you know, like, I do need to pee. So that's what kind of waterfall came from, it's like, oh, waterfall, you know, what you're, you know, kind of just making, you know, it's just, it's about fun that I did like another one. Like, my favorite moment, you know, so it's about your favorite moment with your kids, you know, so it's, you know, I taking this photo of Connor who's walking off the field. And so you've just been blue sky, and you know, the field. And so, instead of the sky, I did all these, like, little postcards of moments did you have with your kids. So you know, so, you know, like, one was, you know, in playing in a puddle, or, you know, Bubbles, or you know, what kind of reading or, you know, like, all of these little, you know, to talk to small moments, we remember, okay, they might necessarily remember, but we remember, you know, leading to them not watching their favorite TV show. And, you know, how all of those are kind of, you know, your favorite moments that you kind of gather up along the years, you know, once saw another, you know, painting was inspired by that, and I did this big sunflower, I don't know, if I'll ever be able to sell it. I think he's probably talking a bit too much. You know, so it's about love first, sort of, like finding out, you know, when you find out, you're pregnant, and you're like, Oh, my God, it's a you know, it's an amazing feeling. And, you know, you can kind of go through it, and then you're just, you know, you're waiting, you know, you've all these emotions and everything, you know, so it's just just be happy. So clarity, and all that have layers, you know, I've worked, I've worked with a lot of layers and, you know, bright colors, and, you know, so, yeah, it's like, it's, there's so many emotions, you know, but I do feel this, you know, it's important to talk about my journey, because, you know, that is very came from, you know, there is, there is, you know, loss and grief and stuff associated with, you know, being a parent being a martyr. But there's so many happy moments, there's so many nice moments, and it's just, you know, I'm working on what never diminished and just, it's all flowers, it's like, you know, it's based on I can't wait to meet you. So, you know, all these, like, new moments that you have with your kids. So, you know, obviously, the first moment of scene opened or a newborn and, you know, just arrived, you know, but, you know, each step each, you know, step into child's life is kind of a new step for you in your relationship with your kids, you know, and it's, it's amazing so you can celebrate the kid, you know, as a war as the higher you know, each step that they kind of come along and they're kind of like blossoming entities, you know, Hmm, amazing, amazing flora, you know, so So yeah, so I tried to, I tried to cover, you know, a range of softens, you know, like, it's funny because, you know, the writing would contribute or strange times like I mean, I might because like, remember once I was walking so we dropped kind of off to crash so, you know, I was walking on to Greyhound so I was walking, you know, when a trike with my two greyhounds, and you know, these lines were coming to me, so I had to stop after decided or put into the footpath after, you know, and I was on my phone type annoyed. Because if I don't write it down, I'm not going to remember it. I'll be kicking myself because I believe that was perfect. Why did you write it down? Yes, yeah, I'm doing that. And it's just and you just, you know, and it's, you know, so you have to just kind of go with it. And, you know, write your dough, and, you know, the note app, you know, I've got, you know, all these lines and an otter, you know, and, and sometimes, like things will just come like just randomly, you know, and it's all the like, little moments, you know, it's kind of I was driving home one evening with Connor, and it was hard to keep them a week, because it was Derrick girls, it was kind of around five o'clock, or halfway or something. And, you know, I was trying to get Louie. He's a big fan of boys. Yeah, we love Louie, this house is great. So trying to get that on, you know, and that, you know, that kind of inspired another poem. You know, it's just like, just, you know, there's so many things, you know, that you kind of go just day to day that you can kind of think about and remember, and I like to kind of make the connections of Dash, you know, so it's not like, so it's not just the big moments is the small moments, you know, kind of, yeah, that you kind of remember and you take on board, you know, so it's kind of it's, it's interesting, just to see how things translate first of all into words and did bring it out into, you know, a painting and so, so yeah, so it's kind of it's been a journey for me didn't try to relay that, you know, how to share data with other people. So it's like, in my head, I'm like, Oh, this makes perfect sense. You know? And then you're trying to explain to somebody else, you're like, oh, okay, yeah. That's something cool. Yeah. So just, it's, it's just, you know, a journey of exploration. And I think, again, it's going back to that giving myself permission to explore, to learn, to identify, you know, kind of how I can kind of best communicate all of this stuff out of my hand, you know, and onto, you know, paper or canvas, you know, whatever. And it's so it's yeah, it's interesting, it's fun, and it's, you know, and, and as I say, you know, like, when I start sharing is, start sharing the meaning behind the paintings. And people are like, Oh, okay, yeah, you know, they kind of get it more so, like, what I'd love to do is have an exhibition, you know, prehab, the paintings, and you have the pros kind of behind it. So people can kind of make that connection, and you're like, Okay, you know, so they can kind of see where everything comes from. And, you know, that kind of thing. Because, you know, when you start sharing that the amount of people who'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, that's, that makes sense. Or I felt that or, you know, so yeah. Like, as, as artists as creatives, you know, we can put into, you know, words or, you know, visual effects, what other people can't necessarily, you know, so you can kind of make that connection, you know, with, you know, with the motions with that kind of thing. And, you know, that's how you can build your connection, build your community, and then go from there. And that's, you know, that's where I'm aiming for, you know, to share these experiences with older people. Because, you know, a guarantee, like, every single model has had this kind of story. We're trying to keep their kid awake in the car. Oh, yeah. If you see, though, you're not going to sleep until midnight tonight. Exactly. So you do whatever you can to, you know, try to keep the kid awake or keep the kid entertained. And definitely, you know, so it's like, we have all these shared experiences that, you know, they might be slightly different to each other, but, you know, they're, you know, the same you know, so you know, oh, sorry. No, no, no, I was just gonna say, I've got a funny story when it comes to trying to keep a child awake. My my first son, who's now 15. I had to try and keep him awake while I was, you know, there's sort of seats you get put on the back of your bicycle. And yeah. And so we're coming back from a friend's house and I could feel his head pushing into my bag. Like, trying to steer like really safe, trying to lift your colleagues, LAX, I'm particularly under the chin and the kid who just fell asleep on the back of the bike. And I swear, they sleep for 10 minutes. And that adds like four or five hours on to how it's like this recharge nap. Oh my gosh, yeah, amount of times we've done on the trip, just to get, you know, somewhere, boom, off, he goes, like, oh, no, no, he's gonna be up all night. Yeah, that's it, you're like, can you teach me how to do that, because that would be very useful. 10 minute nap and just have to be rising, it will ask you. Want to ask that when you're talking about you, being able to express your emotions and your ideas through prose and through physically painting, do you find one is easier or harder than the other or that you find comes more naturally? Because I'm asking this because I once had Katie Callahan on the podcast, and she's a singer songwriter, and she also heights and we had this conversation about how different or I can't remember what it was, but how she approaches each sort of medium in a different way. And I just wondered what your thoughts were on that. So yeah, it's, it's funny, I find with the writing, it just comes out in spurts. So it just like, literally, I can just No, I can't and poems and prose, okay. They're very rough. You know, I mean, I don't want reIated them, necessarily. Some of them, you know, I might kind of horn but I just, I just let them go. And they're just, you know, that's, that's what they are, you know, and some of some of them are nice, you know, nicer, you know, better put together than others. You know, what I just I just kind of, it just flows I find, or else sometimes I kind of get a couple of lines. You know, as a character ended up, I go back to the couple of weeks later and be like, Okay, no, this is what I need to say, here, you know. And, with the paintings, I like to have a couple of paintings going at the same time. So sometimes, it might be that I do, like, I like to work in there. So sometimes, I might do a couple of layers, and I might have no idea what's going to happen under the canvas. But then it's like something in my head, it's like, oh, no, you need to kind of try to do this, you know, and then other times, it's like, this is what this canvas is going to say, I know exactly what's gonna go on. And I can just, you know, kind of go into. And so it varies, it varies. You know, I don't have any set process. It's, you know, sometimes it comes to the sparks, sometimes, like, I find them like, really, really creative. And I suppose that's another thing that I'm trying to kind of figure out for myself as well. In terms of my process and my cycles, you know, they go find, sometimes enough very creative and I find, you know, to, you know, around kind of November and into December, no, no interest in creating at all, and, you know, and, and then after Christmas, like, oh my god, I have so many ideas, I've got to get everything down and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and, you know, you know, so far I kind of before Christmas, I was doing a little bit of writing and that kind of stuff, you know, but then suddenly, like the art was like, Oh my God, I need to paint the need to paint and you know, so it's so yeah, so it's kind of it does come in cycles, it does, you know, and bought it and kind of present a little bit differently I find for myself, you know, I'm currently in a position where that's fine. You know, I'm sure did if I was a commercial artist, if I was trying to you know if this was my livelihood. Yep, you know, that kind of thing. So I do think I'm kind of luckier that way because I can just lettings. lettings, you know, calm and I'm enjoying that process at the moment. And you know, without the pressure. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So, so yeah, I do. I do. I do think if I was like you know if this was if this was my job and I needed to finish X number of paintings in the month, you know, that kind of thing to pay my rent. You know, it might be I suppose was, well, you know what, that pressure is good too, because you kind of it forces you to sit down, say, Okay, well, no, look, you know, what am I doing here? You know, I try to resolve and try to resolve stuff. But certainly at the minute, it's, it's very much intuitive, it's very kind of like, okay, and I do try to work with like a limited palette. I did, I got a book about color mixing, to Christmas before last, and I was like, oh my god, this is brilliant. Because this was like, a lot of like, you know, artists, when it first started off, you know, you want a tube of every color, you don't have to have a tumor, you have to have a tumor that, Oh, that's such a pretty color rubbish that, but I've kind of tried to pare it down note about like, maybe 10, you know, 10 colors, and I love blue. Like, there's so much blue, in my, you know, in my work Bush, I find like pink and green sofas actually come into a lot more, you know, kind of different variations, you know, now, so it's just, yeah, I find I find there's no set way. But at least if you leave yourself kind of open, you'd be surprised what comes through, you know, entity entities. Yeah, as I said, writing is definitely large refer in how it comes through soldiers, and I just let her just let her just let her come through, you know, and just like I'm writing blogs and stuff as well, at the minute, I'm doing 100 Day project at the moment. So I kind of tried to be kind of vigilant and writing blogs and that kind of thing, you know, kind of so I suppose all the dashes kind of helping things as well, and just kind of making things make more sense, you know, do you find do you do? Well, when you set yourself a task like that they you know, like, everyday, I'm going to do this, like it's do sort of stick to it pretty well. No? I, let's be honest. I, you know, if I set myself for, like, Oh, when I have to do blah, blah, blah, every single day, you know, I'm just like, Oh, really? No. But if I allow myself Okay, so look, this is the general schedule, this is my general idea. This is what I'm working towards. And if I can do a little bit every day, it didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I can, I can work towards it, and it works out, you know, but, you know, like, I wouldn't be like, my 100 Day project, it's about systems and sharing. So it's kind of, like, sharing on social media sharing, sharing, and podcasts. You know, and just kind of understanding, you know, about my connection, and you know, how to how to connect better with people, you know, that kind of thing and just trying to, you know, see what works better, you know, try to get regular racing, you know, and that kind of thing, you know, so it's, it's just, it's about building consistency, and connecting with the community and that kind of thing. So I find that there's a lot of value indoors. You know, some people are fantastic, and they paint every single day, you know, they might do like a mini painting every day. And it's just, it just wouldn't fit in my schedule. Like, I mean, there's some days where I just don't want to paint, there's some days where I just can't create, because it's been a long day, I've been up since whatever hour, you know, just work, you know, family life, you're doing dinner, you're doing this, you're doing that and you just want to sit down and watch Netflix, you know, you know, you have to you have to allow yourself that time as well and kind of try not to punish yourself for being human, you know, so like, like, from for me to undertake a project is very much, you know, trying to connect with the community trying to build consistency and work towards a greater goal. And by doing that, you know, it kind of works. It works better for me. Hmm, yeah, that's yeah, it's good. i If someone says to me, I have to do like a thing every day. I just shut down. I'm like, no, no, that's it. It feels so overwhelming, right from the start, you know, but yeah, but it does. Yeah, it does. Like I love to hashtag challenges. So there's a couple of hashtag challenges that I tried to kind of follow along with loosely every year. So in January, there's so the nerd paint podcast, they do 20 For 20 Day Challenge in January, you know, sort of painted or do something every day for 20 minutes, you can do that. Yeah, that's the TiVo. And there's a couple of artists that I follow that do hashtag challenges, especially at the start of the year. So Phoebe Gander, She's based in New Zealand. She does a 31 day challenge in January. And then Susan net of course, is in she's over in Ballarat actually puja. So yeah. It's really cool to see him extremely close to you. I'll say a few weeks ago, actually. Oh, sorry. Yeah. So yeah, yes, it's He does painting as a practice challenge in February. You know, so so like, there's various kind of hashtag challenges and stuff that you can follow this literally, like, there's a starting in the end, it's like, you know, one month, you know, you can, you can kind of achieve that, you know, and it's kind of I like to I like to follow along with those and, you know, it's, it's fun, I think it's good for you, because you kind of build, you build some consistency you build, you know, you can connect with people, you know, who are also doing it, that kind of thing. You know, so it's, it's, it's fun, but yeah, like that, you know, I mean, if I, you know, to take with the 100 day challenge, if I had to do something every day for 100 days. I feel like I was a failure. If I miss one day, you know, that can do it. Yeah. Yeah. So by giving myself Okay, 200 days, and I have, you know, kind of goals, kind of weekly goals that can change and try to hit and if I don't hate him, Okay, well, look, you know, do better next week. Yeah. Yeah. I always find it's nice to always to see what other people are doing as well, like I can, I can't get very inspired. There's so many screenshots I kept on my phone of people painting because they think, Oh, I love how they've done that. And I might not be like, I don't want to replicate their work. But there's an idea of how they used something to make a texture or they, you know, just some color combinations. Oh, wow. So I like I take a lot of inspiration from others. I don't end up necessarily always attempting it, but I like looking at it, you know? Yeah, but, but I think that's important to be able to sit back and relax and kind of take it in and think about stuff and look about look at things what you like what you don't like, do you do much painting? Yeah, I love I it's just a bit of fun. Just it's like my, just haven't done any for a while at the moment. And same thing, I've got to be right in the mood for or need to do it. But I just I just love messing around with it. Really? I enjoy. Yeah, enjoy. Yeah. Yeah, but it's fun. It's just I think it's, you know, what, it's just getting letting loose and, you know, trying out new things. And yeah, like that, you know, I think it's, it is important to sit down and look at, you know, consider your work, you know, that kind of thing and allow yourself time to sit with it and see, okay, well look, you know, whether it's writing, whether it's visual, you know, sitting down and taking it in and saying, okay, is this is this doing what I wanted to do? Or, you know, is there something else that it's, you know, trying to see, or that I need to see and darkening and also entities and we don't get enough time. You know, we're just very busy. We don't necessarily give ourselves enough time to kind of just sit back and say, you know, what, look, I just entered I do I like to do that sometimes, you know, even if I don't feel like creating, sometimes if you just go and sit with, you know, sit with yourself or look through your sketchbooks or through, you know, whatever, you know, or just play, you know, if you play an instrument, just, you know, clean, easy sound Did you like to play you know, and just, you know, just sit with that and enjoy it? And you know, there's so much value in that. And we don't we don't put enough emphasis on it. Yeah, I think yeah, this is this whole idea that something's got to have an outcome, like there has to be a result to something it can't just be for the sake of whatever, it has to have this outcome, this capitalist ideal that our society seen that, you know, and that's, that's why I like to talk about the value of art, you know, like, just because, like you talked about not selling it. That's, that's insignificant, I think, next to either the gain that you receive from your art and then others do by you sharing it, you know, it doesn't have to have this this end outcome. Would that look, that's a debt. Exactly, yes. You know, what I mean, I'm a better person, I'm a better person, I'm a better mother a better partner. Because it creates because I have that space to do something that I want to do. And, you know, and I can give myself permission, I don't have to answer to anyone else. I do what I want to do, you know, that kind of thing. And, you know, and like, I mean, look, if you can make money from your art or you know, creating courses, you know about your art and that kind of thing. Fantastic. That's amazing. That is amazing. But, you know, creating for creating sake for yourself is valuable, too, you know, and we have an You know, and it's good, it's good to just be able to sit back and just relax and just look, look at what you've done. And just, you know, even if it's big, messy, you know, muddy, you know, Ting under, you know, an A pit and some paper and you're just like, 40s, this, if you enjoy the process, if you're, if you've after having a long day, if you just need to just just do something, there's value in it, because it's helped your mood, it's relaxed, you it's, you know, you process whatever you need to process and now you can say, okay, okay, read, you know, and you go from there. And that's, that's hugely valuable. And we need to do that, and we need to do have more times and, you know, why not allow ourselves to enjoy things that we enjoy? You know, yeah, that's so true. I know that I, I have times when I just think I, you just get so overwhelmed, like you were saying before, like the stuff in your head, and then physical stuff you've got to do, and you just go. And it's like, you have to reset yourself, it's like you have to recalibrate and having that timeout, like he said, where you're in charge of it, no one's telling you what to do. It's like your theme. It's, I couldn't live without it. Like, honestly, I would not be a sane person. If I couldn't do. That's exactly it. And, and that's, and that's where that's where the value is in it. You know, I mean, you know, we're humans are born to create, you know, I mean, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, inverted commas. Good. You know, I mean, 14 pot is good anyway, like, you know, I mean, I said already, you know, when somebody will look at my art to be like, Well, no, that's, that's not art, you know, that kind of thing. It's like, well, actually, yeah, yeah, she is, you know, okay, you have your opinion that that's fine. No water. But, you know, everybody's interpretation is different. You know, I mean, somebody might look at a photorealistic painting be like, that's beautiful. That's art. Whereas it might look at an abstract piece of like, what is this? You know, so it's so it's like, everybody's interpretation is different. And, you know, that doesn't diminish, you know, yeah, the value value of essence, you know, yeah. I think there's art to creativity is, like, hugely important. And, you know, for people who don't do it, or haven't given themselves permission to do it, you need to, you need to for you, it doesn't matter what it doesn't matter what it is, you know, if it's reading books, if it's playing computer games, if it's, you know, writing in a journal, if it's doodling on, you know, paper, if it's writing songs, if it's playing music, if it's listening to music, it was dancing in your kitchen, you know, if it's creating art, like creativity, and knowing yourself to tap into, you know, you know, your creative side, you know, kind of relax it, do it, do it, you know what I mean to work, you know, and it doesn't, it doesn't have to be good, you don't have to share it with anyone, like, you can create art, and not share it with anyone. And it can be just for you, or you can write and it can be just for you. And it's still valid. You know, it doesn't have to be seen to be valid, it doesn't have to have a monetary value to be valid. And, you know, I mean, if you can, and want to create, you know, an income from your art, or your creativity, or your creative practice, whatever it is, that's fantastic, too. I mean, that that should be celebrated. But I think we just need to celebrate, giving ourselves permission to do what we want, you know, and just go create and just, you know, use their hands, user minds user, you know, creative voice, whatever it is inside you and just let it out. And just Yeah, and just go for it. Yeah, that's so well said. Good on you, Jennifer. Honestly, it's been lovely chatting with you today. Thank you so much for having me on SSH and open I got your message and Instagram. I was like, this woman has been hacked. She wants to talk to me. Why? Because what you've, what you've shared today has been so valuable, and I appreciate it so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review. Following or so subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

John Cuk Father's Day Ep. - US conductor + educator S2 Ep49 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Each Father's Day I like to do a few special eps. To mark the occasion in the Northern Hemisphere my guest for this special Father’s Day Episode is John Cuk, from New York, USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist, and a dad of 2 girls. John started playing the piano at age 5, played the trumpet in a band, sang in choirs, grew up going to the theatre, opera and going to concerts, even though his parents weren’t musical he was exposed to the arts. In school he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. He went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and The Manhattan School of Music as well as post graduate work from Westminster Choir College and gained his Masters in Piano Performance. John juggled being a professional musician with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the class room brought him. John's career in academia spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, Somers High School, Middle Schools in Chappaqua, New Rochelle, Rye and at The Anglo-American School in New York. He retired from his position as the Director of Choirs at Manhattanville College in Purchase, NY in 2018 after 16 collective years there. John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor, he’s conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Alice Tully Hall, Marmorsaal, Schloss Mirabell (Salzburg, Austria), Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ (Constanța, Romania), Kennedy Library (Boston), Música Sin Edad (Buenos Aires, Argentina), Temppeliauki, (Helsinki, Finland) and The International Youth Orchestra Festival (Lucca, Italy). Active in musical theatre and opera, John has held positions with Music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, Opera Estate in Rome Italy, Utopia Opera and Dell' Arte Opera in New York, New York, Buck Hill/Skytop Festival in Pennsylvania, Westchester Conservatory's Summer Vocal Music Academy in White Plains, New York, as well as Musical Director for countless musical theatre productions both at the high school and college level. Guest conducting includes Ridgefield Symphony (CT), Chorus and Orchestra of Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ Constanța, Romania, Orchestra Sinfonica di Bacau, Romania in Italy, Moldova Radio Symphony in Chisinau Moldova, National Chorale's Annual Messiah-Sing-In at Avery Fisher Hall as well as choral festivals for Western Connecticut, Suffolk, Duchess and Westchester Counties in New York. He is active as a coach, accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. John performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians and is currently a staff pianist for The Bronx Opera. It is always interesting on these occasions to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it is something that many of us are interested in, it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with mums. I'm very grateful for John for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing and music overall. Connect with John Connect with the podcast Music throughout this episode is taken from the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I present a special Father's Day episode to mark the occasion in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is always interesting on these occasions, to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it's something that many of us are interested in. And it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with moms. My guest for this special episode is Shaun cook. He's from Connecticut in the USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist and a dad of two girls. John started playing the piano at age five. He played the trumpet in a band, singing choirs grew up going to the theater, opera and to concerts. And even though his parents weren't musical, he was exposed to the arts from a young age. In school, he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. John went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and the Manhattan School of Music as well as postgraduate work from the Westminster choir college, and he gained his master's in piano performance. John juggled being a professional musician, with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the classroom brought him. John's career in academia has spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, summers high school, middle schools in Topanga, New Rochelle, right and at the Anglo American school in New York. In addition, he retired from his position as the director of choirs at Manhattanville College in purchase New York in 2018. After 16 collective years there, John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor. He's conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, and Avery Fisher Hall, as well as in Salzburg, Austria, in Romania, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Helsinki, Finland, and in Lucca, in Italy, active in musical theater and opera, John has held positions with music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, opera estate in Rome, Italy, Utopia Opera in New York, New York, among others, as well as musical director for countless musical theater productions, both at the high school and college level. John is active as a coach accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. He performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians, and is currently a staff pianist for the Bronx opera. I greatly appreciate John's openness and honesty throughout this chat. And for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing, and music in general. I hope you enjoy the music you'll hear throughout this week's episode is in the public domain and therefore is not subject to copyright. Thanks so much for joining me today, John, all the way from United States. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me inviting me. So whereabouts are you over there? I'm in the Northeast. I live in a town in the state of Connecticut about an hour's drive north of New York City. Yeah, right. Do you get to go to New York very often. Does your work take you there? Or? Yes, it's not as easy a commute as I would I would like it anyway. But I have gotten to work in New York often because it is it is the center, you know, of all musical things and theatrical things here. Yeah. So on that. So you're a conductor, a musician, yourself, you play the piano. Sorry. Can you share with us starting off with sort of how you got into what you've done with your life over the last how many years? Many years? Well, I, you know, I started playing at a very young age, I was five when I started playing piano, and was involved in a variety of musical things. I played the trumpet, in a band assigned choirs. We went to the theater, or we went to concerts. So there was, even though my parents were not musical, we were exposed to a great deal of music and the arts. I went to a sort of an academic high school that had a terrific choir. And so I latched into that as well as a good band. And going through the thought of going to music to study to be a teacher, be a music teacher. I had the experience of so many great music teachers, both in elementary school music, elementary school and high school, that I thought it was a worthy thing to do. And so I went to a small little suburban liberal arts school in New York State, got a degree in music, education, but also did a lot of playing. I had also learning Oregon, as at a young age and played in churches, and realized that, you know, the teaching piece was really important to me, but the music piece was was equally important. And so I tried to pursue both I got out of undergraduate school, took a few years off, and then decided I was going to get my Master's in piano performance at the Manhattan School of Music in New York City. And so at that point, I was kind of on the track that I wanted to be a full time performer. But there was a part of me that just couldn't accept, sitting in a practice room says for six to seven hours by yourself, I love a making music with other people, especially singers. But I also really love the classroom as well. And so I finished my masters and rather than hit the road and play, I got a teaching job and tried to maintain both professions. Good. So for many, many, many, many years, it was tough to do. You know, one of the things I think that I loved about teaching was that it really grounds zoo, you know, Monday morning comes in, the students come into your room, they don't care what performance you had on the weekend, or how great you were, they could care less. I enjoyed that the fact that I could go out and you know, and freelance and do what I thought were wonderful things but in the morning, I had to, I had to prove it to my students. They didn't want to hear about my exploits. Yeah. And so you know, maintaining a practice schedule while your your full time teaching, then apparent, you know, is is challenging. But, you know, I tried to do the best I could with it. And I have no complaints about the choices I make. I made your my life. I retired from the teaching bit I taught at a number of public secondary schools. The last one, a very, very good one in New York Scarsdale High School. And I also taught for 15 years as a was the choral director at a small liberal arts music school also in the New York metropolitan area. Because choral and vocal was also very, very big. And I love working with words. I love working with singers. And I retired and I ended up freelancing before this pandemic hit. And then what changes again? Oh, yeah, we could have a whole nother conversation about life. I've had enough I was really interested to speak to you because when I saw that you conducted not just orchestras, but also vocal groups and inquires, I spent probably 20 years of my life, singing in vocal groups and choirs, and I just absolutely loved, loved it so much. I learned so much from it. And I thought, I haven't spoken to another conductor. I don't think ever, I mean, the conductor that conducted me for all that time. And I just thought it'd be really nice. As part of this podcast to indulge myself a little bit. Game. I can do it, Carla. Yeah, so yeah, I spent years singing like that time, like Kirby Shaw was really big on these sorts of arrangements and was just a great time we saying we're all female. So we're SSA or SSI. And I was I'm an alto or second outro. And I used to just add, and I just love that feeling of blending and changing your tone to suit people around you and listening at the same time as singing. It just taught me so much about working with other people and a no compromise. You know, it's not all about me, I'm not a soloist, here, it's, we're all working together. The choral thing is just, it's an amazing bit of humanity. And I, for one, when you mentioned, you know, SSA or s a women's groups, I one of my favorite activities was to conduct women's groups. Yes, I almost felt like they invited me into their little thing. But the bonding that goes in a women's group and a sound as you say that you know, how you you really have to change a little bit of your, of your your thought process. But when it happens, the energy in a women's group is unlike any performing group I that I know of. And I, I love that I'm probably missed that the most about not conducting is conducting women's groups. But yeah, what you say is, so it's so true about choral groups. And I think when a conductor is savvy enough to to know that it's not really just about the music, but it's also about the people, because the force of the group shouldn't necessarily come from the podium, it should come from within. And if you can create that sort of atmosphere where they were the singers feeling engaged, and part of this, that they're not just being lectured. It's a it's just an amazing feeling. I missed that I miss choral groups. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, the buzz that you get, like, we were, like, I'm in my 40s. Now. So I started singing in that group when I was probably 14. And we always used to look around at each other. And just, we were just these individual kids and teenagers. And as we grew up, we kept saying, how do we sound so good? Because we'd look at each other and think, Well, we're not like that good. You know what I mean, as individuals, but then when we'd sing together, it would just be this amazing sound. And we just think, I don't know, it, just it the collective, you know, we'd just have this amazing energy and, and it was it was like you say, like a sort of a, it was a humbling experience, I think to realize that there was things you could achieve that were greater than yourself and greater than your own ego, I suppose. Yeah, it was just when I look back on it. Now, I don't think I realized at the time, how fortunate I was to have that experience and for such a long time with the same roughly the same group of people. Yeah, it was fun. The bond, that amount of bonding that happens in those groups, it's just amazing. It's like, you know, it doesn't happen in an all males group. And it doesn't, it certainly doesn't happen in a mixed group. There is some bonding and a mixed group, but it just for some reason, women are much more able and capable of loosening some of the garbage that's around all of us. And I you know, I knew I could never I could never get really that close to it because of who I am. But it just was awesome to be around and the way they treated each other though. They backed each other, you know, and and it reflects in the sound. That's why this the sum of its parts is more important than the individual. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the perfect description, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, he's just us, he said that it just reminded me of this moment, when we were recording, we recorded a couple of albums. Back in the 90s, this is going back. And we had to travel to Adelaide to record it, because our little town doesn't have any sort of capacity for recording how many people in one room at one time, and we were doing this particular song I can't make I think it was called Johnny has gone for a soldier, it's that was like, Oh, amazing, amazing song. And the soloist was having a bit of trouble, because she had to record it live while we're all recording. And so she was having a bit of trouble. I can't remember what parts or whatever. And our conductor took us aside and he said, we have to, we have to keep doing this. And I've done it a few times. But we have to keep doing it for Rene. And he basically gave us a choice. He said, we can go home now because it's the end of the day, and we come back and get it done the next day and stay an extra day. Well, we can stay here tonight, we can get it done. And we can you know, get Rene solo through and and we will get a we're gonna do it. We're gonna stay here now and get it done. And, you know, like that just support get behind each other. You know, it was just, and we wanted it to be good for her. We wanted her to have that experience as well and achieve what she wanted to, I suppose as the soloist because, you know, it's it's important when you get a solo to do it justice for yourself, you know how you want to present it. So I could totally relate to that. And that's interesting to hear that in your experience that it's not something that happens with with the men's group in the mix so. Hey, sorry, I've got a visit I forgot to say that. I'd say sorry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I had to. I had to in some of the some of the things they pulled me in concerts. Oh, yeah, my little one decided once she was going to mimic me conducting from the audience. I think she was better. That would have been lots of laughs people around, it would have enjoyed it. But did you? Did you start to realize at the time what was happening that she was doing that? Yeah, it was right behind me. You know, because we were both my wife was playing and I was conducting. Yeah, just school concert. So it wasn't, you know, it's not Carnegie Hall. But we had put them in a seat because we were sort of in the pit area. And we put them in seats right behind us. So that, you know, they wouldn't wander and they wouldn't, you know, be by themselves. And so, because we're both occupied, you know, here, I'm doing these grand gestures. And all of a sudden, I noticed that there's a mirror behind me doing. And the audience is laughing. Oh, that's so special. Isn't it? Like, Oh, I love that. That isn't? Well, I mean, you're, you know, the title. Or at least the you know, the title of the of your podcast is having to do dealing with family and being a musician. And that's a, that's a tough lift. You know, it is a tough lift. But when, when you have a moment like that, you know, then you realize that, you know, how special it is for also for the for the children, you know, my children's still sort of involved in music. So, yeah, it's sort of validating, I suppose, then you realize that they see what you're doing, like, there. And in a way, they're probably so proud of you. That's probably not the words a child would use. But, you know, to mimic you to copy what you're doing. You know, that's where they say flattery is the what's the word? Something's the biggest form of flattery. I can't actually, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like she or he, I'm sorry, what if, like, there was so. So wrapping what you were doing so? Yeah, I think that's a lovely story. I have two daughters. One is 34. And the other is third, the 231 311 lives in Northern New York State almost by the Canadian border, the city of Rochester. She, she's an opera director. And she does a freelancing and works as an adjunct in some schools. And the other is getting her master's in information in library sciences in New York. And she lives in Brooklyn. Yeah, right. Yeah, opera. That's that's a whole new world, isn't it? That's like, compared to the car. Well, like, it's different isn't? It? Isn't it isn't? You know, I, opera is a big piece of my, my background. And frankly, I got into opera as a young person and musical theater before I got into choral music. But, you know, I mean, some of the core, some of the opera choruses are amazing piece of choral work. And you're also dealing with languages, you know, you're dealing with subtexts. In some cases, you know, classic stories. I know, perhaps, maybe people think that opera is passe. I don't I mean, what's happening? I don't know what's happening there. But what's happening here is a massive revolution in librettos, and people writing operas, and not just regurgitating the same 25 year a year, but it's, I love it. You know, it's a combination really of great orchestral music, great choral music and great solo music, and theater. What more could you have? Yeah, that's it, it takes so many books, this doesn't, does and then this band is ballet. And some of them I actually had, the episode I released just this week was with a dancer from the Australian ballet. And I, I recorded with her for almost three hours, because I couldn't stop talking about the music. And thank goodness, she was kind enough to indulge me but I was just like, I don't know, that obviously, as a musician, I'm so enthralled by that part of of ballet. And I just find that just the whole world of ballet is a mystery. So it was lovely to be here to share a lot of these behind the scene things we all think it's a bit like that Black Swan movie, but she showed me that it's not all like that some parts of it. Those they had a hard they really have a hard because they have to make it early. Young. And, and I think the physical, there's a physical toll and music as well. But the physical toll on on dancers is really intense. So I think they haven't my Google, oh, the way she was describing what they do how like the days, they're doing there might be rehearsing one day and then performing that night, but they'll be doing perhaps they're not rehearsing the show they're doing that night anymore. They're learning the next one. And it's just like, not only would your brain be spinning, but your body is just under the pump, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week. And like when I was talking to us, I was trying not to be sound too daunted. But I was like, This sounds exhausting. Like how do you guys actually do it? Like, you know, and then to fit in having a family as well? Like, how how do you physically manage it all? It's just such a know, a really challenging world. Yeah. I think I think Broadway actors are similar in that, you know, I I know a few and I had a few former students and their lives aren't just it's not the rock star stuff that you think it is that we all think that media thinks it is? Yeah, no, they're working eight nights a week. They can't really take time off because you don't know if a show is going to close. They're worried about what the next show comes. There's the physicality of it they they actually have misuses and people backstage to deal with them when they were there elements. It doesn't exactly sound Like, you know, rock star movie star kind of thing we are, it's, it's such hard work and that and it makes you appreciate it, when you see it, you think of, if you can, if you have an appreciation of what they've been through, to be able to bring you what you're watching, just, you know, have such respect for these people and the work that they've done, and continue to do so. So you mentioned before that your wife is also a musician, what does what does she play? What'd she do? She, she was a pianist, also. And a choral director, she actually called her up to the schools. Most her age group was mostly here in the US grades six through eight. And sometimes a little younger. And so, you know, we, in one way, we had a one where you sort of had an advantage because we were both on a school schedule, which helps in bringing up children in another way. A disadvantage is that December, May in June, you know, like, some similarity was always out at night. And so, you know, trying to figure out who's picking the kids up who's getting dinner, who's that sort of thing, but she you know, I don't think she had I can say this, we, we've been married with a beetle before you for two years in May. But we shouldn't have that kind of burning passion to really want to play by herself. She was very comfortable and love the classroom and loved the whole element of the classroom. And she was coral. Like I said that and she was a really good teacher, she retired also, this is her first year of retirement. You know, she kind of bridged a little bit into that sort of that pandemic teaching and decided that this is not really what I signed up for Yeah, but so we did share a lot of music and a house I mean, there was always music in the house somebody was always playing and although we tried not to force our kids to be in music it you know just sort of happened sometimes you just can't help but if you if you're surrounded by it it's it just gets into you doesn't know you feel the need to go up and conduct is that that daughter that that imitated us that the daughter that is the opera director? No Actually no, no she she was the younger she's the younger daughter and she was very as a child growing up how can I say spicy monkey still is a little bit she played actually she played the viola through school and was quite good but again did not have that you know there's there's a certain there's a certain amount of mania and I might even say sickness that you need to have to, to kind of keep that thing going and neither girls although they love music, and they were quite good at it, they just didn't have that to go to go beyond that which is just fine. You know, it's not but no, she never. She played a few decent orchestras and you know, we used to play together sometimes I would accompany her if she asked me but no, never took up the baton except for that one time. Maybe she read the critics loved it. That story. That is a really good story. Hello so in that, but you've, your wife and yourself are sort of juggling the parenting role and trying to do your music was that I had an I had a weird it, was it ever sort of uh, was it? Was it hard to sort of juggle who was going to get to do certain things? Were there ever sort of clashes where it was like, we don't both try to do the same thing like that, that that experience where you had to take the girls with it? Was there a lot of that sort of stuff where you're both having to be out and bringing the children with you? I would say there was a little angst on on who's you know? And if, but I, I could, we were very good to each other and that we communicated, you know, and we knew what what needed to be done. So like, if I was doing a show, that pretty much meant, like for the last 10 days I was done. And if she was doing a show was the same thing? No, like there's any, you know, he might say chase you. But with the with the onset of digital calendars. makes things a lot easier, because now all of a sudden, everything is like in front of you. And everything has is in front of me and vice versa. Well, we didn't have that when, when our daughters were growing up, but it helped being in a school schedule, for sure. You know, they were it would sometimes be is if I had extra stuff if I was doing extra freelance things on the weekends or sometimes. You know, I did a few festivals over this festival over the summer, which took me away for a bunch of time. There were maybe there was a little friction there. But I don't you know, I think with some of that. And I know what you're driving at with the question, I think is that, you know, like sometimes well, it is, you know, somebody, somebody gives up a portion of their thing for the house, household, and the other person does it. And in a sense, I kind of did that. But not really because I still was teaching my main focus was teaching and playing in church. And my wife's focus was teaching, completely teaching. So it's not like anybody. Anybody asked somebody else to do something extraordinary. So that you could make it big at the Metropolitan Opera. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know, people were who have have had to do that. And you know, that causes great tension, and sometimes they can split up for that. But we did not have to deal with that. And I think that's part of, again, going back to our original set, the grounding that teaching gives you really negates some of that. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for indulging that question that sort of, you know, I'm appreciative of your giving me your time as, as the man in the relationship to how you deal with that, and how that makes you feel, you know, what I mean? It's like, I think on my show, we do talk a lot about how women try to cope, you know, sometimes in a man's world and depending on what sort of art circle they might be in. So I find it I just, you know, in a kind and respectful way to hear what the other side has to say, You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I, you know, and I think, I think one of the problems is that there isn't enough dialogue about that. It's something that really people don't think about when when they do get married or when they have children. Is that okay? And perhaps, perhaps, it certainly is better than what it was when I was growing up where, you know, there were, there were definitely roles carved out. You know, my father went out to work, my mother stayed home, she didn't go out to work sometimes. But the one thing I did learn from my father, because he worked in a restaurant business he cooked. And so to me, that was never something that was, well, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do that. As matter of fact that that in some ways for me, if I'm going to the market and buying stuff, and cooking it, that's a real release valve. I mean, I actually really enjoy doing that. Yeah. And so I think that the problems occur when you don't communicate and I think there are certain things that I know my wife does that other people might think are so called manly things to do. Because I don't like doing them, and I'm not very good at them. The things that I do that might some people might say, are not manly kinds of things. And I don't care. I also think that a lot of those those, those, those boundaries are changing, they certainly change, you know? And who know who would not want to be involved with rearing your children being around your children? I mean, I can't imagine why you'd want to, why would you have them anyway. So that's somebody that you used to look forward to when, when, when they were young, I do this once by accident. And I would take a day off from school in December after my concerts were done. I pull them out of school. And I take him to Manhattan. And the first my wife was out doing a concert and I was home with the girls got Chinese takeout or prices to carry out and decided to rent the film Breakfast at Tiffany's, which they've never seen before. And so they allow, I was glad that they fell in love with I hadn't seen it since I was a kid. So they wanted to go have Breakfast at Tiffany's. I took the day off, we went into Manhattan. We sent the student for a Tiffany's with a bagel or whatever it was, and then went to the tree. And it just it was such an amazing day that I ended up doing that for maybe four or five years after that, not necessarily going to Tiffany's but other parts of Manhattan at the time with the two of them. And I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet they remember those, like really special memories, too. It's part of their childhood. Yeah, they do, actually. Yeah, that's lovely. But I think you're right, though. It's like the gender stereotypes, the gender roles are being challenged, which is awesome. I don't think I could have had this conversation. You know, in my dad zero, that would have just been What are you talking about? Like, why is why is this even a question? This is, this is not what happens. You know what I mean? It's just things are changing in that that's awesome for everybody. Because that's the thing, like, just because, like I spoke to a dad for this podcast last year for the Father's Day episode, and he said this, because I'm the dad, why was it assumed that I'm the one that has to leave the house and go to work? Why can't I be the one that stays with my children? Because I love my children? Why would I want to stay with my children? So you know, everyone's the mind shift. The mindset is shifting with every generation and which is awesome. Like, it's really good. Yeah, I almost wish it was shipped a little faster here in the United States. Yeah, yes, things not shipped so fast. As I'm sure you can see. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So you talk about communication being really important. Did you at that time, when you were thinking about starting your family? Was that a discussion that your wife and yourself had? How's this going to work with our careers? And what we want to keep trying to do musically? Was that? Was that something that happened then? No. We, we were married for seven years before we had our first born and how grant time flitting around going into the city going to Europe. I I loved our lifestyle. I really didn't want it to change. And but I knew having a child was was really important in my life. And I'm not sure if it was that important to me. And I kept I wouldn't say resist, but you know, you know, the usual and we don't have my mind. We don't house you know, that sort of thing. And then finally, I would that's part that's part I assume has to be part of the package. So I didn't want to go back on my word. I was frightened. Frankly, to be really honest. I thought that my entire life would change completely. Um, and I remember, you know, both girls were C sections and my wife was in a hospital, the first one. I remember, she was in hospital and I came home from visiting. And I was by myself and I remember sitting with a very large glass of wine. Watching. It was a European cable channel that used to we used to be able to get that doesn't exist, I don't think it exists. And we're watching the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. And thinking, you know, I'll never play that. You know, I'm sure most of it was just the exhaustion. shock of it. But, you know, I woke up the next day, went back to the hospital, you know, and I was the first one to actually hold her, you know, she was a little thing, you know, and and that whole thought process at that point, it didn't matter anymore. You know, I, but I also to remember playing a recital, like the week after, or like 10 days after being absolutely exhausted. And that's basically that what I realized that my life was going to be as it was just going to, it wasn't going to be that sort of picture. Perfect. I can go and do a gig someplace, and I'm prepared and I'm rested. I'm fired up. It says, basically, let me stay awake long enough to finish it and then go home and crash. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I realized that my life would not change much. I mean, it does change, of course, you know, it has to change. But when it would not change, or at least what I felt was important I like she was she was an infant. And I remember watching a broadcast of a live broadcast from, I guess, the Metropolitan Opera of Mozart's Magic Flute. And Emily was on the floor with me just before bed, and it got to the point where the Queen of the Night sings this array up, up, up, up, up, up, up up a Berber put her bed, I finished watching the thing, the next morning, the next day after school, I come home and she's kind of like trying to sing it. So I went out and got a boombox. I bought the highlights CD of The Magic Flute. And now I realize she has she has the disease. Oh, one. Yeah, and they've always been, you know, we've schlepped them to so many different not only school performances, but also stuff that we aren't being close to Manhattan to New York. They've seen a lot of stuff so but you know, I think at that point, I realized that you know, this these two things can commingle? I was going to ask you, as you were talking about that was you realize that you didn't have to give up one thing to have the other it's that your music and your child, your children could actually, like you said coexist, that would have been a really relieving moment, I would have thought that you sort of would have thought I'm not going to lose it or I'm not going to have to, you know, give up something. No, no, yeah, it was, you know, the, the what it did impress upon me is that I was going to have to work harder to maintain it. Yeah. And sometimes I couldn't maintain it the way I would want to, you know, like I couldn't get to a piano to practice or I couldn't I had to turn down something. But I would have to be it would be more on my shoulders to try to balance those two things like not practicing when they're asleep and those kinds of things. I can see how it would have been a very difficult set have choices for somebody else to make. But once I saw them, as you know, once I saw them, that was not a difficult choice anymore, you know, as much as I love music they don't take that doesn't take the place of my children, you know? Yeah, and I think that's something that everyone's afraid of when, when you, you, you sort of presented with this prospect of having a child and your life completely changing, you have this fear of, what's my life gonna look like? Off you go? Go on, go see that place. You'll be asleep when I come out. That just proves it doesn't it? Just proves it. It's just an you know, sort of, I just have to go go with the flow of it all. Because in the end, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's what matters. Yeah. You know, whether I have to wait 10 minutes or not, that doesn't matter, you know, and if it doesn't, and if it did matter, then then I'm an idiot, you know, because that was more important at that, at that point, and balancing all of that, bravo, you know, that's gonna be hard for what you're doing. Because you're in your house. It's not like you can go someplace else. It is, it is challenging. But the thing that I like to remind myself is that he does have to be parents, and there's a time and place for each parent to have what they need. Because I think it's really important for you to be filled up yourself, have your cup filled up, especially if you, you know, if I think you have to be nurtured yourself before you can nurture someone else, I think it's really important to do that, and that's why I've never stopped singing never stopped creating, through having both kids through both pregnancies. It's like, I think it's just a part of who you are. And that identity doesn't change just because you become a parent, is that part of your life's not going to just, you know, go up in smoke, you're all of a sudden not going to be a creative person, just because you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And that certainly is not, you know, your parents or my parents reality, they had to give up things that they may have wanted to do. I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also what makes creative people also want to do stuff because they, it's almost I don't want to say they want to prove a point that it can be done. But it's like, you've seen how, perhaps your parent your parents gave up stuff that they wanted to do. And maybe that doesn't feel right for you, you don't. And because society's changed, you have those opportunities, so you're going to take them I suppose that's I guess that's a way of trying to describe it. Again, not to delve into the into politics, but I think one of the things that's, that's difficult here in United States is that we don't have daycare. Daycare is all private. And so, you know, there is no infrastructure for we were fortunate that we we made enough money for both of us to go out working and somebody who's watching the children, and then when they went to school, somebody wouldn't, you know, but I remember moving into this house now, where we were, the biggest issue wasn't whether we can afford this was whether we're going to be able to find daycare that was appropriate for both girls. And that that piece I think, helps to be able to share the responsibility and for people to be able to say, okay, I can keep a piece of myself and still be a parent and etc. But I feel so awful, you know, even it was highlighted here, certainly during the pandemic when daycare centers were shut down, and people who really need that, you know, the working class or the poor, have to sacrifice going to work with having their kids at home. And again, I don't want to know, I actually I don't mind delving in politics because I'm old enough to have seen the world spin a few times. And my only hope for this country, you know, we label everything is to make it easier for people to have families and to go to work and to have their dreams, then we can we could have that all. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like a lot of it comes down to circumstance, like you can have all the dreams in the world. But if you physically cannot do it, for whatever constraint that said, it has to has to stop, doesn't it? Yeah, I actually, I spent nine years working in childcare here in Australia. And I'd recently just resigned from that job a couple of weeks ago. And they desperately we need an overhaul here desperately. The same thing during COVID, we didn't get shut down. But the the limitations put on access to childcare were greatly changed. So if only if you were an essential worker, you were allowed to use childcare. So basically deciding whose job was important enough to be able to have childcare, which I thought was pretty ordinary, and a lot of parents obviously, were not happy with that they would ring us and say, Well, why isn't my job important enough? Who decides? You know, the government's decided, but obviously, the sentence the person who answers the phone is the one who's copying that question. And that's not a question they can answer. But that's how people feel. And I can understand that I don't think it's it's not a fair thing to put on people to decide. You're whether you're important enough in in this community in our country, or not, it was just a bit of a mess, to be honest, but Well, yeah, you know, there's an issue here too, about how birth rates are going down. Well, if people are worried about having children, because they can't work. Of course, birth rates are gonna go down. Well, you know, I but yeah, there's a whole thing that just reminded me I listen to a lot of BBC Radio. And they were having a big thing on there the other month about China, how they're now wanting people to have three children. And they were saying, well, there's no infrastructure set up for mums to return to work, there's no childcare, there's, you know, they don't have like nannies system, like it's not a thing over there. So how can you expect people to return to work if you don't give them the, the tools to be able to do it? It's all well and good saying have three kids, it's like, well, hang on a sec, I actually still want to work or need to work. Yeah, it's the also piggyback on your, you know, the point of our conversation, is that that's, that's a huge, a huge, huge issue for people who are in the arts, about having family, you know, and also, you know, if somebody's a freelancer, or, you know, let's say they're fortunate enough to have one of the big jobs, you know, orchestra, full time orchestra or health benefits, the whole thing. Those things happen, like you're a ballet dancer, they rehearse during the afternoon in the morning, and they play at night. And usually they stay in the same hall all day long. So somebody's got to be home. Or there has to be some some accommodation for Where do the kids go? Yeah. That's only if you're you're fortunate to be married to somebody who has that kind of a position. But most of the musicians I know, they're all you know, they're either office temping someplace, and they're they're running out to do gigs at night and taking whatever comes along. And it is certainly a lot harder for them than it ever was for us to to try to bring a family. There's this whole the gig economy, we call over here, people who are freelancers and, and that kind of stuff that they they suffered hugely through the pandemic, because they didn't get the support from the government that other people did, too. So that was a whole nother sort of cultural division of why why is some people worthy of receiving money from the government and some people aren't and the arts just suffered so much. And that's something that I think half the reason why, hopefully, we'll have a change of government because people have realized that the sports kept going and the sports were supported, and that there was all sorts of allowances made for them to travel through interstate to keep playing their football and whatever else they were playing, but the arts just stopped. And even at a local level, there was no support, so I don't I don't that frustrates me. But anyway, we've got an election coming so we can do something about you. Know, I think it's endemic in Australian culture that that of Sport comes first sport. So the bail and endo and the arts are the poor cousin. Unfortunately. But anyway, here too. Yeah. Well, we are here just even on the school's bounce, we're screaming about how their kids games were canceled and you know, the colleges wouldn't come and see them kids play and they wouldn't get into college and scholarships and and so they ended up allowing indoor games like basketball when you couldn't sing in a in a you know, you couldn't have a choir. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah, that singing that singing thing really got us over here as well. That was just really? Yeah, it's hard. You'd have 40,000 people sitting in a stadium watching a football match, but you couldn't gather together in a room and sing together? Come on just the Yeah. Very frustrating. But anyway, hopefully that all that stuff's behind us now and when to get something else. The next variant? Yeah, oh good. Coming back to you as a conductor, I wanted to ask and I haven't I haven't asked you this previously. So I'm going to put you completely on the spot. So if you like to move on to something else and come back to this in a minute, that's fine. I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite piece to conduct? And why? Is it two out of a question? Well, it here here's my usual stock answer when people say to me, what's your favorite composer? Or what's your favorite piece of music? It's like saying, What's your favorite food? There's sometimes I like a plate of pasta. Or sometimes I like a beautiful piece of grilled fish. And there are some times that I might even like pizza. I don't really have it's like, there's a line from this show Oklahoma. When Wilbur Parker asks Adel, Annie, well, which guy do you like better? And she says, whichever one I'm with, I try in conducting and playing. To find even if it's something that I don't may not connect with initially. I tried to find something in it, that I can get my hook into it, and then expand out example, I resisted working learning conducting Carmina Burana for years and years years. I just felt like it just you know, it just seemed like some raucous pieces, you know. And then, this was my college position. They, they hired a new president, who was of German descent. And he decided he wanted the choir to sing a few movements of Carmina Burana at his installation. Interesting choice, I would think, especially with some of that text. So I felt like I really couldn't say no. Even though I didn't have the kind of forces to put that together. So I sat and I studied it. I chose some movements. I managed to get money out of them to put it together. And I did it. And frankly, I enjoy the rehearsal, and I enjoyed the performance in it. So that's an example of something that I had absolutely no, and I knew I had, I should I should do it because everybody does it. I'm more of a lyricist. I mean, I love I love. I love great text. I love melody but I also love complexity. I would say Probably my favorite thing to conduct his BA. Because I love puzzles. Yeah, those kinds of musical puzzles. But there's something there's something tremendous about conducting Verity. There's something tremendous the one guy that that scares me. Let me be honest, but it's probably not gonna be broadcast United States a little matter. Beethoven, I know, people would say, Are you crazy? That's like the pinnacle. Beethoven, to me is so dense, and is one of those composers that I have to work really hard to get at the kernel of it. It just, it's not easy for me. It's not easy for me to play. It doesn't fit my hand well. And it just I look at the score and it's almost like I look in a language that I don't understand. I like to say I probably have enjoyed it. But it's not my desert island kind of fit. I mean, I love listening to it. And obviously his place in music is amazing. To me, Mozart, Mozart operas. Mozart symphonies. CalWORKs Wow. Poulenc Gloria is one of my favorite pieces. The Dorothy Requiem is another one of my favorite pieces. I've done the for a requiem a number of times also one of my my favorites. I've tried to get my try to get my wife to sign a piece of papers to tell me that you know that it should be sung at my funeral. Very carefully choose the soloist. Pas who is just a challenge, you know, first of all first soprano that's a hard question but I don't know if I answered it fully. I also love those you know those small tacos, you know, those Renaissance music. choral music to me is just it's a ethereal I love the big British stuff, the whole host of Vaughan Williams. And again, it's it's it's sort of what what I mean at the moment. Oddly, Mozart, the Mozart Requiem is not one of my faves because it's not really Meltzer except for bits of it. I've done it I've enjoyed doing it. But it's not something that I would really doesn't have the same spot in my in my being as some of the French correlate works. symphonic li DeVore Jack but I also like to conduct contemporary music too. And I find that to be interesting. I love playing contemporary music and for that very reason is that at least the way I work is I look big first and then realize oh my god, how am I gonna redo this and then I go back and just sort of take things in small chunks. And with contemporary music there's there's no preconceived motion to fall on. You know, you can't go to a recording you can't go to you can't read about it. Especially if it's brand new. I played there's a in Hartford Connecticut there was there's a festival every November this first time I did it. It's called New New in November and they basically put on one act operas, chamber operas written for piano five or six of them in a setting and so I played one of them and it was fast it was it was based on the American young American composer from Austin, Texas, based on the Pulse nightclub shooting in Florida. Very powerful and just so much fun at practice and dig into it, you know, this is trying to get and then once you finally get together with the other artists, it just it just it's like magic and so I really that I really enjoy something that has not been done before that I have to trust my own guile and research Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you actually, because I know as, you know, doing choral music, it's sort of up to the conductor to interpret it and to present it in the way that they see fit the way that they you know, the tempo, like there's always the guide to what to do. But someone might put a pause somewhere else for dramatic effect, or, you know, there's, there's room for your own added nuances, I guess. Is that something that you find exciting or daunting, then if you know, someone else has done it? Is it hard to put out of your mind? They didn't like that. But I wanted to do it like this? Or did? Does that make sense? No, it makes great, it's a great question. For one, I'm a bit I'm a bit of a traditionalist, if it's not in the score, I am not going to muck around with the score much unless the big unless is, what can the group in front of me do? I am not a big believer on having this massive conceived idea of a work that they can't accomplish. So if it's a professional group, that's one thing, but if it's an amateur group, or it's a school group, or it's a church group, then what I do, I try to look at what the score demands in terms of sound. And if they can't do it with perhaps the way that somebody else might do it, like speed, I'll do it with articulation to create that same effect. But to me, it makes no sense to try to, to push a group to do something that you have, you know, basically an academic scholastic idea of what it should sound like, and they can't do it. Yeah, what's the sense? So, in terms of freely interpreting, I like to feel like I have some say on that. But mostly, my say on that, especially if it's a choral work has to do with punctuation, breathing, text issues, there's some composers who are very demanding in what they write, and there's others that have their own, like Vaughn Williams, or one I mean, he's, his, his writing has to sort of be interpreted because it's not, it doesn't really make any sense if you do exactly what he says. And I suspect it's because of the acoustic that he was writing for. That it was in a church and a very live acoustic. So sometimes things like the final ends of notes or phrases are kind of, you know, he puts a a quarter note with an eighth note that's tied to it, and a dot underneath that, which to me says, Get rid of the time, especially if you're in a dry acoustic. Yeah, yeah. So but I have a, I have a story that I I did the, the Verdi Requiem in Romania, about four years ago, four years ago. And quiet was quite good. soloists, we're all we're all professional, but you know, like most of these kinds of places, they're all sort of stuck, because you're not there for a long period of time. You basically float into the city, have a couple of piano rehearsals, a dress, you know, you meet the orchestra and then bang, off you go. So there's no time for me to pontificate I want I want there's a spot at the end of the very Requiem, where it is this huge crescendo and then it comes to subido piano. basically impossible to do with the way he wrote it. And it's in the middle of a word. So I scoured various recordings. And one of the recordings I got, which was a composer I conducted that was very influential in my, in my view of conducting was Robert Shaw. And I'm doing amazing pretty regularly. He actually took a little bit of a loose breath before that piano, the whole thing. And then the subido piano, perfect. So I thought it was good for Robert Shaw, if you could for me, right. Nan Romania gave me an issue with it. She said. And I said, Well, you can you make this with the piano without and it turned into this fight. So in the end, okay, it wasn't a subido piano wasn't a piano. But it wasn't worth fighting, because it just wasn't, you know. And so sometimes, you know, I think I probably if I had more time, I probably would have insisted, but my Romanian is not very good. English and I don't think she spoke English very well anyway. But that's the thing like you, you, you're challenging cultural norms that, and it's hard to break down those barriers or even question those barriers, certainly with a limited timeframe. But even at all, I guess, you know, there's 1000s of years of history, and that's what they do. And also, it's also what the what the norm is, in that particular region. Yeah. Right. So, to go back to the very Requiem, I did have an extensive choral rehearsal. To few be subject to a few areas in a very right way. And, you know, being sort of a pianist, and organist, a Bach lover, I mean, I have a certain set way about views. And they sang both views. Like, that was almost anathema to me, you know, you couldn't hear subjects, it just was like this big mush and wash of sound. And my first thought was, okay, so how far I'm gonna go with this? I tried. They were terrific. They were so receptive. Actually, those two choruses were the best things in the entire performance. Because I, they allowed me to break the paradigm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when they actually did it, it was just awesome. You know, so clean it was you could hear every entrance and everything was shaded, and, and they were a good choir to begin with. But that's the difference. And then they were the soprano was not used to that she was used to getting whatever she wanted. And so when she got it what you want, and so I think that the score, it's not a museum piece, you know, it's a guide. And if you have enough, I don't think you should sway far so far from the score that it deviates from what the composer intended. Because that I don't think is right. Yeah. So no, but to use the score, and then also to use your understanding and knowledge of what the pair the practice of the time was, what the idiosyncrasies of that particular composer was, if you know them, if it's a brand new thing, then you know, then you're going on, you're going on guesswork, sometimes you're lucky enough to have a composer there. And that's, that's a long winded way of answering your question about, you know, how do you how do you sort of attack a score like that, but I find it really daunting, but yet fascinating to get like a clean score and thinking, okay. Where are we going from here? Yeah, no, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm throwing some questions that you that you haven't had any morning over. So I appreciate that. I'm a former teacher, I can dish it. Be surprising some of the questions would. No, I love that. Yeah, actually talking about contemporary composers. I had a guest on my show a few weeks ago, Dr. Erica ball, I'm not sure if you've come across her work. She's based in the United States. And she is on this mission, I guess to because she teaches piano and violin as well, to teach her students that they can play music by people that are alive still. That's her thing that it's like women and people that are still alive. And then like, some of his students don't even realize that people are still writing classical music. They think it's all stuff by, you know, people who died hundreds of years ago. So that was a really fun conversation. That's changing here. Mentally, yeah. And I think it's because composers are promoting their music better. I think festivals are promoting the music. And one of the one of the exciting things that I thought that happened during the pandemic here was, you know, because we were all, you know, sitting in front of our screens at home, it allowed us to sort of take some steps back and do a little research. And I was involved with a mezzo soprano friend of mine who wanted to put out a weekly A video of songs written by women composers who were not necessarily household names. And it was fast because we both researched this together. We rehearsed it using, you know, this thing here, which had its had its moments. But the fact that we, you know, we we did that I was, although I knew some names I some of the music is just a why is this buried? Why is nobody playing this? Yeah, yeah. And it's happening here. There's, there's concerts now. A great deal of concerts by African American female composer Florence Price, who wrote a tremendous that was an amazing pianist. Were big groups, symphonic groups. choral groups are starting to really dig in and not look at the same stuff that we've been playing for 300 year. That although some people do advocate that, I think that bringing this no music by living composers into the canon of what we do, is going to sustain classical music and not make it look like just some relic museum piece. Yeah, that is so true. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, because it's like, it will just stay as something that doesn't evolve, it doesn't change, it isn't challenged. And eventually, it'll just, I don't know, might even get lost somewhere because it hasn't evolved. And I don't I, I think it's awesome. It's really, really good to keep it relevant as well for new audiences. And because I think this conversation I had with with Erica was that there is a portion of the audience that desperately wants to hear a song that they know, and they recognize that there's also the people that want to challenge that. So it's also that that generational shift, you know, that that will challenge your whole Hispanic that's been going on for a long time. You know, and you mostly see it in, in orchestras, where they know that their donors, their big donors want to hear Mahler and Beethoven, Brahms, and will not will not stomach in certain places, certain cities are different, but it will not stomach an entire evening of something that they don't recognize or can't understand. Yep. So in the past, orchestras have sort of mixed the program a little bit, you know, they give the castor oil on the sugar. But that's also changing, you know, where, and they've been very smart about it, and using sometimes contemporary living composers who actually show up to these concerts, give a lecture on it. Explain it, because I think some some of that is education. Yeah. But I, it's starting to starting to veer off into the choral world and starting to veer off into the opera world. And I just in some ways, I had a conversation with a friend, we were talking about the pandemic, because let's face it, we all talked about pandemic, how they will would have been no Renaissance, if it wasn't for the Black Death. You know, I mean, the Black Death, the Renaissance was, was a direct cause of coming out of the Black Death as the, the, the pandemic of 1918, the roaring 20s was a direct cause of coming out of that in the First World War. And I maybe I'm an optimist. I am, too. But I think there's going to be a second renaissance in the arts for sure. Because, like you say, they've taken such a hit, and so they can't go back to the same way things were done before. Yeah, I would agree with that. I hope and I hope that that it challenges the norms. of all cultures, but my own I really hope because the thing that frustrates me is that creators and artists make everything that you consume, you know, you wouldn't be able to sit at home and watching Netflix during the pandemic, if somebody hadn't come up with the story and the actors, you know, everybody that goes into making that stuff and everything you touch and like everything has been created by someone and made by someone who designed by someone, but we just seem to take it for granted. I suppose. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Then I Yeah, yeah. Until it was denied. And yes, yeah, we could argue for granted until they shut theaters down until they shut everything else down. And you had you had a search for it someplace else. And some of the arts organizations were smart enough. My follow up and for one is that then they started releasing all of their HD videos for free. Yeah, right, every week, you know. And, again, thinking of the longer the longer game, and a longer game is to, is to keep this thing going. Yeah, and perhaps not being precious about, you know, like that, that maybe giving up some income, maybe things used to have to be paid for in that way. But just because we've always done things a certain way, that doesn't mean we have to keep doing them a certain way, if we want to evolve and remain relevant and, you know, reach these audiences that are basically a candid audience. They're not doing anything else. So we pump them full of this stuff. And then they love it. And then they when they come out, they want to consume it even more. I, I, we went to the opera. In September, the Mecca opened back, you know, opened back up again. And this, they decided to open their season with a new opera. And it was written by the book was written by a columnist for the New York Times, fire shut up in my bones. If you ever have an opportunity to see the HD video, that is amazing. But the thing that was really amazing is that when this show opened, and as I said, it opened the season, which is unheard of. It was packed. And the audience was unlike any audience I've ever seen at any classical concert, anywhere. In the world, it was just like, first of all, it was an it was an event. And the age differential was huge. The the social makeup was huge. And I've seen, I saw people that I've never thought I would see at the Metropolitan Opera and a place went and it was, besides the fact that it was an amazing performance. But I thought they were going to rip down the house at the end. It was just was incredible. And that shook me. It's because when a staid institution, like the Metropolitan Opera can have the guts to say things are different. We're going to change a little bit of a the conversation here, I think there's no reason why not everyone else can also do. Yeah, that's incredible. Isn't it? Like the risk that they would take doing that, but the payoff has so many sort of flow on effects, not just for them, but for the how the culture of opera is now. You know, changing? Yeah. Incredible. The entire company, the entire production team, what's African America? Yeah. Yeah. And the dancing on stage was something that was unlike anything you would have ever seen on the Met stage. And it was just amazing. The band, the orchestra was actually a full symphony orchestra with a band in the middle of it. Playing and the music also had jazz elements, you know, symphonic elements, all sorts of just a hodgepodge of great, great stuff. I just hope they do more. Never was more of a Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I sort of feel like ballet is really good at pushing the boundaries. I know the the Australian ballet here. You know, they've they've got to get the they get the balance right from the the shows that people want to say the sleeping beauties in the swan lakes and the nutcrackers. But then they get and they've been doing this for many years, getting the people we're gonna get people from Europe over to showcase to contemporary works and to push the boundaries of what people think ballet is. And I think I feel like ballet is really good at doing that. And yeah, the I think dancers always been really good at that. Because the music is except for those those chestnuts. The music can be anything you want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the style could be anything you really you really want it to be there's you're not really. I mean, the people have tried to pry loose a little bit of, you know, our conceived notions of what Nutcracker and Swan Lake should look like. But for the most part, if you do a contemporary thing, you're not under any constraints to do anything except what that work demands. Yes, they I think they've been good with that. And I think belly audiences are much more receptive To that, even though, you know, I frankly used to hate going to the ballet we call them the white glove crowd here. And so you'd sit in the audience and all of a sudden they take out these little bond bonds with the rappers it's like the most sublime piece of music and the oh here. And it would take forever for that thing to get in that woman's mouth. And it was just like, irregardless of what was going on. Yeah, just so I was never a great fan of the audiences of our ballets but for sure. We have this concept of mum guilt that I talked to my guests about and I love I love to eat sounds bad rice, I love talking to people about their guilt. But I find it really fascinating because everybody has different experiences, everyone might deal with it differently. Some people don't feel it, some people feel it a lot. And I like to when I get the chance to talk about how men feel about that. Because your say your a man's role generally is perceived as different to the woman. So it is expected that you might you know, you leave the home and do what you got to do and that sort of thing. Do you? What's your take on? I guess? I don't want to call it dad guilt because I don't. I don't even like calling it mum guilt. But I call it that just for the hashtag mum guilt, you know? What's your thoughts about all that sort of stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean by it. Okay. So the way that we talk about mum guilt is that when your mom, you're supposed to do stuff for the children. And then if you do something for yourself, you should feel guilty about that. Or if you don't meet the norms of what society deems as being an I'll put in air quotes, again, a good mother, you should feel guilty for that. An example that I can give you is a guest I had on the show, went out one night to watch a classical music performance. And she was there with their friends. And one of the people she met said, Oh, it's such a shame you're missing bedtime. You know, it's good that you could come tonight, but you're missing putting the kids to bed and she's like, why is that a question? Why are you asking me about bedtime? I shouldn't say this to the person. But you know, my child has two parents that my husband is quite capable of putting the children to bed. And I'm quite capable of leaving the house and doing certainly for myself. It does. I guess I can and I probably shouldn't answer for my wife. But I but you know, certainly when we've been out and I have to admit that we did not go out much without them. Okay, that was our choice. We took them to everything, including restaurants. And some of it was because we just liked being around them. And I don't think it was guilt. I just think you know, I could probably count on one hand. Firstly, babysitters rarely had a babysitter. Now, when one of us had to do something or went out? I would say that maybe Celia would feel a little, you know, like a little bit. I shouldn't be home. But I'm sure it passed fast. Especially knowing that I was there. Yeah. If I wasn't there, then I would have been a different story. If it we were both out someplace for sure. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Guilt is a strong word. You know, I might think about you know, where I what I was doing. And I have to say I'm not I wasn't the kind of guy when the girls were young that Did you know like went out with the boys and that kind of stuff. I didn't do that at all. I had no intention to do that. I'm perfectly fine staying home with the girls. But you know, I might think oh, okay, we'd be having dinner right now or the, you know, shower time in the bath time. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it good. Yeah, you know, might as you said, you know, like our, the generation of our parents, they had to give up stuff. And I'm sure that, you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father who was in a restaurant business without every night working, and come home till two, three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them, you know? But, you know, I almost I must wonder about that. And it just, it's sort of a foreign thing. I understand why people might think that it I, it's hard for me to kind of think, put myself in there. Because, for one, we took them everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we, the first time they went to Europe, to see my family, and she's been other places. One of them was five years old, four years old. You know, like, I mean, those kids went when traveling more than most. We went to restaurants. And so they were very, very early age. And we just, we wanted, we love being around each other. And it wasn't like to be with her mom or sisters. I'm sure maybe she felt a little, but I'm sure it passed quickly when she was with her sisters or whoever. And I never felt that, you know, I mean, I I was out a lot. You know, I was a church musician. So I never felt that. Unless I was out for an extended period of time. Like when I would do summers in Rome. I was five, five weeks, six weeks. Yeah, I did. For sure. I did. Because I knew all of it fell in unseal you know, and I wasn't there to sort of pick up the slack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for answering that. I know. It's, I feel, no, it's something that fascinates me. But again, I, I want to be respectful when I ask people about things like that, because, you know, it's a bit of a, you're asking people to tell, you know, really private things about themselves. So appreciate you indulging me. Well, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think people who, who will listen to this should think there's, this is these are questions that, you know, are there and other people have coped with this before, and are coping with it now. It's not like a new thing. It's not. And, you know, like, with anything else, we, you know, like your, your story about feeling bad, because she's, you know, missing mum time. I mean, that that's something you put on yourself. That's not, that's not you create, you can create your own thing. You know, and I think in this in this age that we're in now, people respect when you create your own thing, and you're and you're strict with it, perhaps 40 years ago, no, you know, that question whether you are a good mother, if you were out, you know, but that, to me seems something that is more someone someone's demanding of themselves rather than it's coming from outside? Yeah, I think I feel like social media has had this impact of, of showing us so many different elements of people's lives, that allows us to compare elements of our own lives with them. But I think what we have to remember is that what people place on social media is very curated, and they're generally only showing the best bits. And so it's like, the advent of social media has allowed more comparison. And I think allowed more people to question themselves. I don't know, am I doing it right? Or what are people going to think if I do this, or, you know, whereas I think sometimes it's better just to do what works for your family and in stay really insular in your thoughts and not think about what's happening. You know, the last I checked, there was no manual. There's no degree on any of this. And, and there's no one way, you know, and so I, you know, we I think we all come into this thing with, obviously, what we were brought up with, knowing what worked and what didn't work, or what we want to imitate and what we certainly don't want to imitate. And then we go from there. And it's a partnership for one. It's not just one person deciding that. I know some families where it is all only one person and frankly, they're dysfunctional. And so, in some sense, you know, like to me bringing up children and also create a household idea is it's creative because it is based on the on the two of you. And it's also based on what, you know, your children's needs, etc. And there's no one way. I don't think there is no. Oh, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. definitely agree with that. If you've got anything, any projects coming up or anything you want to share about it might have in the works or anything at all? Really? Yeah. It's a little slow for me getting back right now. Because the some of the things that I was involved with, are taking your time coming back. I've been I'm playing more, which is good. The conducting is coming a little slow. Right now, I was supposed to do conduct on Giovanni in Romania before this pandemic hit. And so I'm kind of like in a in a negotiation, trying to get that either in June or possibly in September. But I don't have any pressing things at the moment. In some ways, that's good. Well, my oldest daughter is getting married in October. And so that is pressing. It's pretty important. That is pressing. But in terms of artistic stuff. I don't I don't I don't think so. I am revisiting Don Giovanni, just in case I do call to do that in June, because it's a pretty big, pretty big work. I'd like to get that off on my back and off my off the table. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's, as of right now. My, my modus operandi is the, you know, when when the things come in, jump on them. I have no real plans. You know, I hope that some of the smaller theaters that I was working in, will start coming out, you know, the problem is, is that they were unwilling to commit to performance venues, because they weren't sure they're going to get closed again. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty is living an hour outside of New York, but also the problem is, is I'm an hour outside of New York. And so anybody in New York can gobble up whatever it is very quickly. Yeah. So but that's okay. You know, I stuff, things will come back, and perhaps things will come back that where I can go back picking and choosing what I want. I'm done with just grabbing anything that comes along, no matter how miserable it is. Yeah. Yeah, you can do it because you want to do it and you're passionate about it. Yeah, it's nice to take a step back a little bit, actually. And you know, to think a little bit more about all this and study a little bit more about all this and and then we'll see. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for being a part of this special Father's Day episode. I'm very, very grateful for your time and for your candor, and your honesty, and I've really enjoyed our chat. Thank you, John. I enjoyed our tattoos. It was fun, and good luck to you and keep singing. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Katherine Collette Australian author + podcaster S2 Ep44 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Katherine Collette, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. Katherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry, in diaries, stories or to pen pals. Throughout high school it fell away until her 20s when she would write a little play or comics for friends, An engineer by trade, when Katherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life she would write a book, so she began. Her first book The Helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life. was published in 2019 and she followed up with The Competition in February of this year - 2022. Her style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of punch. Katherine also co hosts the First Time Podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Mildenhall . Katherine - website / The First Time Podcast / Purchase / Instagram Williamstown Literary Festival / Bendigo Wriers Festival / Queensliff Literary Festival Varuna Writers Retreat / The Divided Heart by Rachel Power / Rachel Power's podcast episode Podcast instagram / website Music used from Alemjo with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast has done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Katherine collet, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two. Catherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry in diaries, short stories, or to pen pals. Throughout high school, it fell away until the early 20s When she would write little play or comics for friends and engineer by trade. When Catherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life, she would write a book. So she began her first book the helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life was published in 2019. And she followed up with the competition in February of this year. Catherine style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of a punch. Catherine also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Miljan. Hall. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Catherine. It's a real pleasure to have you. Ah, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah. Must be nice to be the subject of a podcast rather than interviewing someone. Yeah, it is the I think that events add things to, I think the harder job is being the host, rather than being the guest. You got to be a lot more agile in how you're thinking and think of the next question. But if you're the guest, you just wait for the question and answer. It's great. You can relax a bit, just switch off a bit. And yeah, hopefully not too much of like, if you if you don't. So tell us about what you do. Sure. So I am an author. I have written two books. My first book came out about four years ago. And my second book, which is called the competition came out just over a month ago now. So I do writing. I write fiction, the type of fiction that I write is humorous fiction. And I also co host a podcast called the first time, and I believe you had my co host on the show a couple of episodes ago. She'll say, we know Yeah, it was lovely to make a she's, you guys must have so much fun when you make that podcast. It's I think it's well, I mean, we've been doing it for about four years. It started out the concept of the podcast was my first book was coming out. And she was the only author that I knew. So I kept asking her all these questions about what to expect. And yeah, we ended up making a podcast about it. And the podcast has continued since. But during the last and it's always been fun. But during the past couple of years with COVID. We're both in Melbourne, we've spent long periods of time locked down, as I suspect have, you know many of your listeners. But she really was my main touch point, aside from my family, my husband, my mom, it was Kate that I spoke to every week. And a lot of those chats are recorded. And we listened back. She made a little compilation a few episodes ago. And we listened back to the conversations just snippets that we had when COVID first hear it and then over time during lockdown, it was just a it was a really fascinating thing. She definitely kept me going but you could also hear the fatigue in our voices over time. Yeah, it's interesting to have that like little time capsule almost of that, that moment in time and sort of reliving the emotions and the uncertainty and all that sort of thing as as it went through. And yeah, I think it was fascinating because I think that period particularly at the start, you know of so much uncertainty. Yeah, to reflect back and think. Wow, I'm glad you didn't know what was coming in many ways. Yeah. So strange. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just want to let you know that I messaged you and let you know. But I am reading the competition. I haven't finished it yet. I'm sorry, I didn't get to finish it. But I love it. I mentioned you and your message I love your sense of humor is so relatable to me. I just I read it. And it's like, I could have said it myself. It's just love it. So. Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Thank you. I really appreciate that All right, so let's go back to the beginning. How did you become a writer. I was a kid who always liked writing. I, I wrote, as a, you know, pretty early on, I would write in diaries, I had a lot of pen pals. Often people didn't realize they were pen pals with B. So they, you know, didn't always write back. But I wrote a lot of letters to people. And I also read a lot of poetry in those letters, terrible sort of rhyming stuff. So it was something that was really a part of my life early on. But it fell away, as I think it maybe is a fairly common experience in high school I was more interested in I played a lot of basketball. For one, I was probably also more interested in meeting boys. So I did, I did some writing, but mostly it was assessment based. So there was some creative stuff in there, but but not, you know, not heaps. And then in my 20s, I would do little bits and pieces, sometimes for gifts for people, like I might write a little play if they were going away, or I might write comics for them. So I had this creative element. But I mean, I'm, I'm 41 Now, when I turned 30, it just not I had a crisis, but I had this moment of thinking, my whole life, I thought I would write a book. And I realized that no one's ever just gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, you'd be amazing at writing a book. If you if you buy a if you write a book, we'll publish it, you have to just start writing the book. And so I did, and I didn't shut start with short stories. I just plunged straight in. I had met. I'm an engineer, but I was working for a brief period of time at a council doing community development sort of stuff, which I was really very good at. But there I met this president of this local senior citizens club. And she was a really intense woman a little bit problematic. I remember that she I think the first time I met her she was furious because the Chinese subgroup of senior citizens had been playing mahjong in the bingo room. And she had gotten so angry with them for doing this that she had, they had sandwiches in the communal fridge. So she threw out all their sandwiches. And, and told them that it was her fridge and they weren't allowed to keep food in it. So I met this woman, I had this desire to write. And so I wrote a story that was set around a council worker who encountered this senior citizens club. And I was obsessed. I wrote, I didn't have I, this was pre kids. But I got up every morning, I'd get up at five, I'd write for an hour, then I'd go to the gym, and then I'd go to work. And slowly that would encroach into weekends. Like I do writing on weekends. I wrote a bit on the holidays. My husband was like, it's kind of annoying. She would not do this. But yeah, so that was how I got the first draft of my novel down. And I was madly redrafting, wanting to start to send it out. When my daughter was born, that felt like a really big hurdle. But basically, I sent it out. You know, I had a few hurdles and hits and misses along the way. But that novel ended up getting published. And when it was purchased by the publisher they purchased it was a two book deal. So I I was in at that point. Yeah. Is that scary though? Knowing that you've got to then turn around and do In other words, well, I had a draft of the other one. So that certainly helped. Yeah, but it is it is daunting. Yeah, I've heard people say that it, it probably is a better example of it, that do weekly columns. And so that feeling of like, you just sent one in. And then the next day, it's like, oh, I have to do another one. Like I just finished the first one. So did definitely have that. Yeah, right. So not wanting to spoil the competition for people who haven't read it yet. Was that inspired by real life people as well, as they helped me it was, it was so the competition is set around. Public speaking club, people might have heard of Toastmasters. It's a very similar environment. But basically, I had swapped jobs, essentially, from going from engineering to working at the council. And suddenly, I had to do a lot of public speaking. So I joined the local Toastmasters Club. And I don't know if you've been to Toastmasters. I know people I know people who have. Yeah, so I so it's, it's a funny little world. I think that a public speaking clubs probably always going to be pretty awkward. And you would want a public speaking club to be awkward. Both because people are trying something that is inherently awkward. But also, if it was to cooler space, you wouldn't feel comfortable to get up like it has to be this really accepting friendly, kind of gentle place. But that also adds a layer of unusual newness I suppose like if I guess my first impression of Toastmasters was like, Oh, this would be easy to satirize. Because, well, it's awkward, it's enthusiastic, it's really positive, it sort of came out of a probably predates the self help movement on us, but it's definitely a part of it. But at the first meeting that I went to, there was another woman who had just joined and she was a, she's a transgender woman. And she was in the process of transitioning. And she talked about why got to know her over time. But basically, in that process of transitioning, she picked Toastmasters as the place that she would start that so she sort of said to the group, listen, my name is this here. But outside of this, I've called David. And if you see me in the street, don't mention, you know, my name is Greer here, don't don't mention the two things. And that always struck me that Alongside this, this place, that could feel a little bit ridiculous at times, there was something about it, that was really beautiful. If someone who is doing something that's really brave, and I imagine it's really difficult, but they feel that this is the best place to start that journey. And so I always had this view of Toastmasters. And it was a view that I maintained over time, that it was a place where people found their voice, and that there could be elements of that, that were really funny. But there were elements of that, that were really sweet and positive and important. And, and so I started writing a book about it. And the book, the competition is set around a public speaking competition in a Toastmasters like environment. And there is a character in it. It's a really minor character that is based on that original woman that I met. But that's not the focus of the story. Yeah, yeah. Do the people know that they're in your books? Like, are they aware that they've had them? She's the only one that is based on Well, I did have a senior citizens club president in the previous one but I suspect she's is dead and and she was heavily fictionalized. The this is really the only character that is more closely based on a person but she's a really small character before it before the book came out, I had because I had interviewed Gregor is the woman same before writing the book. And I said to her, Oh, would you like to read the bits that I've put this character in? And I've set up copies of the book in my she said, No, she wasn't fast. But she my launch comes up in a week's time and she's going to come to the launch, which was nice. That's but it wouldn't be. It is lovely. It would be very daunting though. If I hadn't done those things, the idea of writing about something and not being I open about that. And I can see why people, you know, could make that choice just because it feels harder. But I'm glad I did. And I mean, it was a positive portrayal. Yeah, that's the thing. You're not You're not hiding it because it was, you know, you turned it into a negative or anything. It's like, it's quite positive. And you don't mind if that person is very aware that that is them? Or based on Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess the challenge with that, though, in that kind of example, is that it could feel very random to have a book that is set in a public speaking club. And there is just a transgender character walking around, like, it could feel like a really labored form of diversity or something like that. So I just was a bit conscious of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, share a little bit about a bit more about your first time podcast with I mean, I don't want to give away your secrets, because I want people to listen to it. But tell us the sort of the gist of it, I suppose. So as I said, when my first book was coming out, I had all these questions. And so I would routinely be like, okay, you know, like, my launch is coming up. What am I meant to do at the launch? Or they want me to give a speech at the booksellers conference, what should this speech be about? Or, you know, just all of these different things that I wanted her view on, I wanted to know the answers to because I think it's, I think it's a vulnerable thing for anyone releasing any type of art into the world via books, or music, or sort of visual art, those kinds of things. And so you, you sort of, I really wanted that from her. But I also was very much in this space of being a writer in a community of writers, and a lot of them were emerging writers, that would be going through the same things because, you know, they would have books published, if not now, but they just had books published. So both of us were like, Well, we think there's kind of a bit of space in this. And I think authors, particularly emerging writers also like hearing those stories of how people's books came to be sitting on the shelf. And did you get an agent? Did you enter a competition? Like, you know, was it on the slush pile, all this sort of stuff? So we started the podcast, and it always had these two parts. One part was our experiences. So me saying it was, I think, particularly in those early days, because we recorded a lot, before we had an audience, and we're releasing episodes as their audience was growing. We were both very vulnerable and saying, I feel really daunted. Yeah, so we had this one part, which was about us discussing me asking questions, the two of us discussing pretty candidly the experience of being published. And then the other part was interviewing authors, other authors about what it was like their first time. And so that was the initial starting premise. Initially, we had to not beg people to go on the show. But we certainly had to question please come on, you know, podcasts people can be a bit dismissive of, but we were like, ah, Could you could you come on our podcast and in people very kindly said, Yes. And so now I think we're into our fifth season, we are overwhelmed with people pitching like it, that part has really evolved, evolved. And you don't have to ask anymore, you've got people knocking down the doors to you to be a part of it. RedBubble. And the best part of that is, is that you get st people's books. So you just have we get lots and lots of books. So as someone who loves reading, as well as writing that, I just I constantly pinch myself and going to the mailbox and having all these books there. It's great. So that was where we began. We are now five seasons in we still interested in people's first time, and that's sort of what we're known for with our guests. We always ask them about that first time. But I guess as we've evolved as writers, we ask also about the craft of writing, as well as the publication experience. Yeah, it's been really nice. And I think what's nice about it is that you start to build a community around it, so it's got a really beautiful community and it's been such a nice thing to do. Writing can be really solitary, but this feels a bit more like a team sport. Yeah, absolutely. And it would be so rewarding to like knowing from your own point of view, what it's like, for your first time and how daunted you are, you're actually helping other people as well. I think that would be amazing feeling. It is, it's lovely. And some of the letters that we get, and emails are so touching. I keep mentioning COVID. But I think COVID is really dominated life. And we've had so many people that have messaged and said, You really got me through COVID I couldn't write I didn't feel creative. I was I couldn't meet with my writers group. But having you and Kate talking and being able to listen to you guys and hear the same struggles. And here also the your defeat your challenges in being creative at such a strange time. Yeah, so it's like they were they were, they were hearing from familiar figures in their lives. You know, it was they felt reassured, and yeah, it's like you. Even though you weren't there, you were there for people, you know. It's true. And I feel that myself with a podcast that I listened to podcasting in audio is such an intimate medium, because it's intimate. When you create it, it's just you and I sitting here, it's intimate when you listen to it, because it's generally most people listen on headphones, or, you know, maybe in the house, but they're generally listening on their own. It's only when you then realize that, you know, it's 1000 people listening on their own, that you realize what's not, you know, probably only to say everything. Not good on you that that's really awesome. I think yeah. COVID was, and it still is, you know, it's it's a time that's divided people like physically. And so having those, those connections that people can tap into, it's just been everything, it's been so important for people and yeah, good on you. And I think that community has helped us too. I remember early on in COVID, we had a listener that wrote a letter in and was saying they had just been at for Runa, which is a very well known writing retreat in the Blue Mountains. And it was in a house that was formally owned by Eleanor dark, who was a writer. And this listener that wrote in was saying that she had read Eleanor darks, diaries or something from the Second World War. And in them, Eleanor was saying that for the duration of the war, she couldn't write because she felt this creative malaise. Survival was sort of front of mind. And it just sort of felt frilly to be writing amidst all that, and something that really helped me when I was struggling to hear someone say, yeah, that is really difficult in times of hardship to want to write, but also that that malaise goes away, and that as as things in life get better. It comes back. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, it's like a, it's not a thing that's sort of reserved for this era of COVID. Like, this is an experience that people have had for many, many generations. So it's sort of reassuring in that way, you know, that you're not alone. And what you're feeling is normal. And you can feel exactly, yeah, exactly. No, that's, it's interesting. Because I found in people that I've spoken to, through this podcast, it can go either way. It's like, some musicians go bonkers. And just they've got to express how they're feeling through their art, or painters, and, and such, and others that just go nuts. Like survival mode, like you said. It's like daddies that it's like almost the primal brain kicks in. And it's just day to day looking after yourself. Looking after your family. Yeah. And everything. That's really true. Yeah. And I guess, to everyone's experience with the COVID, throughout Australia and around the world as being different to like, even you guys compared to me here in South Australia, I've had nothing compared to what you guys have gone through. So I sort of touched with that. You know, we've been really fortunate here and yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting. I think that's really true. I think it's also if you err on that side of that, I can't write I can't do anything. I've got nothing. It's really hard seeing people that Oh, my God novel fell out of my head overnight. And I've you know, written it in three days. I think we often feel that since well, I think jealousy is always a part of creative life, how much you try and engage with that and be calm. Just not to let it in, but you can feel like you're falling behind Yeah. All right, so let's talk about your family and your children. You mentioned briefly that you had your first child when you were sort of the helpline was getting going places and happening and things. And yeah, tell us a little bit more about your children. Yeah, so I've got two children, the eldest, Matilda is eight now and Oscars, six. So they're both at school. This is Oscar's second year at school. So he's in grade one. So I feel like now is a really exciting time creatively, because I get two days a week that they're both at school, and I'm not doing other types of work. So that's really exciting. But yeah, so when Tilly was born, I took a year off work, you know, stayed at home, I wrote a lot in that time, she was a good sleeper. So I was really lucky in that respect. I feel like I've been able to maintain my creative practice through motherhood, probably the bigger blip in that was having two kids, because most people with multiple kids will know, you have this idea that maybe they'll have a nap at the same time, but think that ever really happened. So I think that felt that sort of first year of Oscars, life felt like far more of a hit in that respect. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I feel lucky, like those. I feel lucky to have both to both be able to maintain a creative space and energy and be able to do that. But also to complement that with family life. I feel that one enhances the other. It can you elaborate on that a bit more? Well, I think that pre kids, that was a fear for me, like I had this sense of urgency when Tilly was going to be born, that life would change. And I had a sense that what if I can't write anymore? What if? Or what if I can't write for a long time, what if it's not until they're both at school that I can sort of pick up a PIN, I really didn't know how that would work. And I think those early days of motherhood are so hands on, there's so much sleep deprivation and all those kinds of things that whilst I enjoyed all that I I had framed it around loss, in some ways that I would lose this ability to be creative. And, and a lot of that was related to time. But increasingly, I think having kids is enhanced my creativity, both from the point of view of productivity and the lesser time that I have. But kids also awaken a different sense of curiosity in you and a sense of play, which I mean, you reading different books and seeing different words in that way. But I don't know, like, just how a child will spend an hour balancing a beanbag on one foot, or you know, those sorts of the game of life, you know, games in nothing. And there's something that's I remember being a kid and thinking, encountering adults that I knew had forgotten what it was like to be a kid and thinking, I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. But I think for me, it wasn't until I had kids that I remembered what it was like to be a kid like I had forgotten. Yeah, because life takes you in that direction, doesn't it? Like life expects you to be a certain way and behave, you know, this level? And it doesn't encourage times of play and and it doesn't. You wouldn't the things that you do with kids. Like I don't know, it's sometimes it's boring, like you're playing in a sandpit and that repetition of activities that really little kids like But the delight they will take in playing with an adult is really a joyful you're listening to the art of being a mom. I started doing improv comedy last year, just they do a series of like terms, basically. Yeah. And improv, particularly in the early stages has lots of games that you'll play it. And they're really fun. So something very small might be one person you're in, say, pairs. One person says, well, well, if it isn't there, and then you have to think of like an adjective, and then an occupation or a type of thing. So well, well, well, if it isn't that angry bus driver. And then the other person has to say something that an angry bus driver will say, like, oh, you know, I haven't got a good ticket to get off the bus, something, something small. But I do that. And I take a lot of those games, but that sort of thing with my kids, where you'll say, well, well, well, if it isn't there, something something. And it's just really fun seeing what they come back with and what. Yeah, I would feel silly, potentially doing that with adults, but kids are always up to that stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I work in childcare. And I, it's the perfect environment for just being yourself, like truly being yourself. Because you can be as silly as you want. You can have in the staff it everyone's the same. So there's all these banter and silliness. Like I could imagine going into my work and doing something like that, because people are just in that headspace that, you know, your inhibitions are gone. No one's judging you like, a kid's not gonna look at you and go, Oh, that's not very funny. Like, you know, it's so good. I do. Like there are certain friends I have that, that you can do that sort of stuff with my publicist for the book, the competition, we've traveled around a bit since the books come out. And she was saying when she was a kid on long car trips, obviously, you had the radio, but the radio would go out. So her family used to play this game where one of them would pretend to be a talkback radio host and the others would call in. And she said, the great joy of it was just in the name this so you sort of drive past a church and say, Oh, we're looking at churches today. Have you ever been in a church? What's the funny thing that's happened in a church? Do you like churches, you know, this sort of thing? And just the ridiculousness? We did it for hours. Like, just as we were sort of being driven from place to Oh, suitcases. Do you have a hard suitcase? You have a lost a suitcase? You know, just Yeah. So I tried doing that with my, my kids, and they have never heard talkback radio. We listen to podcasts and things. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? You sort of that's that generation. Yeah. Oh, I should try that with my kids. They would love that actually. So much fun. Yeah. Like, the more inane that it gets is just and because talkback people are so like, have such an opinion, such a singular point of view. Yeah. I can imagine your lady you said about before that it's like, yes, she'd be on Mars young into being gay. Right? Exactly. Oh, my goodness. One of the things I like to ask my guests is about how having children or being a mother sort of might have changed the way they create. And that's how it sort of has influenced you, I guess is that it brought back that ability to play and look at things differently. Maybe look at things through the eyes of a child and yeah, I think that's the real. Yeah, that's, that for me, that's what kids have brought. I think also that I've had much greater exposure to kids books. Kids books have changed a lot since I was a kid. You still have I mean, I love Roald Dahl. And I still love Roald Dahl. But even when I pick him up, I'm like all It's pretty harsh at times. You know, a lot of it is sort of carried through. But other things like I don't know if we'd get away with that now. Yeah, that's actually that's a really good point. You see some of the stuff. Yeah, I've noticed the same thing and like reading to kids at work over the years. It's like it's gone from like, almost like an adult way of writing to this completely the other way that you think you'd hear that in? Like, you know, the schoolyard like, it's not even formal enough for a book, you know what I mean? Yeah. This Yeah, the, my kids read a lot of Ra sprat, who does nanny Pickens. And anyway, she is very funny. Just listening to kids books is really fun. We listen to a lot of them on audio, on podcasts or on borrowbox, like library apps. tightenings. So I think, not only that sense of play with my own kids, but being exposed to authors who play a lot in their writing. I think there's so much more of that than there ever was, before you look at the tree house books or books that are just a bit absurd or, Yeah, funny books. Yeah. You talked before about not really knowing what to expect, like, you're thinking of things in a point of view of loss, like, will I get this back? You know, maybe how it's going to fit into my life? Did you have other members around you at the time, who were writers that you could sort of glean information from? Or are you just basically making it up as you went, I suppose I had, I had just started a writers group, there were four of us in the writers group. And I know I didn't have that, then that's a lie. So I had gone to RMIT. And I was doing some creative writing courses there. But I didn't have a group at that point. But it must have been fairly early on. When I went back, so Tilly must have been about 12 months old, and then met a couple of people. And we set up a writers group that was separate. So that was a really pivotal moment for me, in having other people around me who were writers that I could talk to, they were obviously less established writers. So they were also had pretty young kids. And we're figuring those things out. So I think it was a more lonely endeavor. By the time we're not a lonely endeavor, but probably everyone has to figure that balance of stuff out for themselves. But when my son was born, one of the girls in the writers group was Kate actually gave me a book by Rachel power coat, ah, what's the name of the divided heart. I remember breastfeeding at night, and just devouring this book, which is a book, it's a collection of interviews with creatives, writers, musicians, all different sorts that talk about particularly those early stages of motherhood and motherhood and how they fit it in. And so you would have people who were sort of literally breastfeeding to the side of the stage before going out and playing a set, and others who really had struggled to be able to do everything to be able to do anything. And, for me, that was the greatest education because it was this breadth of experience of how people had made it work. And so it sort of did reinforce that idea of you just have to figure it out. But it presented a vision of it can coexist. You don't have to give one up. You can have both, and it will be a juggler. And here are examples of what the juggler looks like. But yeah, yeah, that was huge for me. Yeah. And in fact, I've tried to give it to people who've just had babies and who are creative, and it's very hard to get. Yeah. I had Rachel on the, on the show on the podcast in season one. And gosh, she's an amazing woman to speak to. She's just, I don't even know how to describe her. She's just incredible. And the gift that that book keeps giving to people. It just it's endless, like so many people had had mentioned this book. And I actually had it I hadn't read it. I'd heard of it, but I hadn't read it. And I reckon the first three people I've spoken to had mentioned this book, I'm like, I need to read this book, and then I read it and like I need to talk to this lady that wrote it. I need to get inside her head more. And yeah, she was so generous with their time Um, it was wonderful to speak to it. It's such a known book among, like, I want to say it's niche, but it's kind of not niche because it really applies to so many women. It's just that it applies at this particular gets you at this particular stage of life. That's it isn't. It's yeah, it's an incredible book. Yeah. I approached my interview with with Rachel, like, I didn't want to be complete fangirl. You know, you might be like, actually, when you speak to authors, it's like, I need to contain myself. But I'm so excited to speak to it. And I just wanted to to really understand from a layperson, that what she's done is just been incredible. And the gift that she's given to so many people, and yeah, just how grateful we all are, you know, for does she know that I imagined check and save a lot. Does she think? Yes, I hope she does. If you're listening, I hope you get it. Push it really to me. What in, in what I have seen, it is the only book of that kind of milk that I have discovered. And it is a very beloved book. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So yeah, like, I think what, what I've sort of taken from that, what you're just saying is like, you can see what other people do, you can't exactly copy what they're doing. Because everyone's life is different. But it's reassuring to hear everyone's going through it. And we can make it work. And like you said, these are some ways that you can sort of manage that, that juggle. And I think it helps with that. You can feel very judged in that juggle at times, particularly in a creative juggle is very distinct from a work juggle, because at least a work juggle is bringing money in. Whereas the creative juggle, might not bring money in at all, or a very small amount of money relative to return. So that tension, I think, is what profound in that space. It's a whole, like, I can never say it right? It's not a kettle of worms. It's a can of worms, can I get my kettle of fish in my cameras? But that is it like the value that artists have been honest, a forced in inverted commas, because I don't really believe we bring it on ourselves. It's something that society and external judgment has brought upon us that we, if things are only a value, if that's a monetary value, and that's a horrible thing to say, unless you can commercialize it, unless it's part of capitalism, society, it's what is it worth, you know, and that's a really, really sad thing with so I think it's so deeply ingrained that in many people that many people don't even realize like one of the things people always ask you, when your book comes out, or when it's been out for a little while, it's generally not other writers or other authors that would ever ask this, but just kind of people that are outside of that world is Oh, what a sales like, Did you which, and I can understand that compulsion to ask that. But it's, it's such a fraught question for someone producing creative because it's so diminishes the worth of something to this volumetric measure, when equally, they could say, you know, what's been the response? or what have you, you know, like, there's so many other ways that you could measure the success of a thing to talk to sales is, is Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Some of the moms I've had on this show, have felt the judgment from not their own parents, but like parents in law, about there's one example of a lady that the mother in law would look after the brother's children because the mum was going to work like an actual job, but she wouldn't look after her children because what she was doing wasn't deemed as being worthy enough to have childcare. You know, it's like this, this massive judgment that comes at you from all angles. That kind of ties into one of the things I love to talk to moms about is this whole concept of mum guilt. What's your sort of take on that in relation to, to creativity? I think, I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that stuff is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship. And, like a real life relationship between perception and and that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Yeah, I don't suffer majorly from guilt. Because I guess for a lot of years, I tried to make my writing as invisible as possible. So I would get up at five o'clock or 430. Before kids, pre COVID, I would leave the house, we have a 24 hour McDonald's nearby, I would spend that, you know, be back by 7am, which, you know, I'm in a privileged position to be able to do because I have a partner who was in bed at that time. So I did work really hard to kind of make that as invisible as possible. Because I have now got two books out, I've been able to carve out more time. But I remember when Tilly was I think she was about nine months old. And she might have been 10 months. And I got my very first fellowship to go to a writing retreat at Bruna at this retreat that I've mentioned before, and it was a full week all on my own. And I was so unbelievably excited, because it was a really validating thing to have one in the first place, but also because I had a 10 month old baby like to be away from that child was like hard, but I was gonna love every minute of it as well. Yeah. And I think I even weaned Tilly in order to go, which I would not have told people at the time, but I didn't want to be pumping milk and being at this retreat the whole time. Yeah, a week. Oh, my God, having is the worst. Anyway, so my husband and I were in Sydney and I was going to catch a train to Verona. And so I was in this like, great, joyous mix of excitement and all the rest. And he got up at sort of 5am put to leave the car and they drove off. And so I lay luxuriating in bed and was just about to get onto the train, and was just pure, pure excitement. And you know, like, I'll miss you, but I'm so happy. Anyway, he called me at like 730. And something had happened with the car. And they've been driving. And he what had happened, the brakes had failed. So he was trying to slow the car down and pushing on the brake and nothing was happening. So he was stuck on the freeway with no way of like slowing down. And so he managed somehow to get the handbrake to go on. We just got to get like 100 kilometers now. So it's like this real near death experience. And it was so like, it was awful and crashing on multiple levels. But I remember feeling really worried but also, if I hadn't have been if I hadn't have been going off to do my writer's retreat or why myself that would like it was such a guilt laden moment, even though it was complete chance. And me having been there or not, wouldn't have made a difference. Yeah, there's just yeah, like, did you get to go on your retreat still? Or did they did and I still had a great time. But I always whenever I think of that retreat, I think of this need if that was it, the cruise control got stuck on and he couldn't turn the cruise control off my God. So it just kept the car kept barreling along so it's it's really frightening thing. But whenever I think of that retreat, I also think of the two of them having this near death experience. And it is overlaid with joy and guilt. So as much as I sort of am conscious of it and try not to feel it. It's it's yeah, it rears its little head. I love that. And I love that you didn't go back and save them in the lucky which rich rage because like, like you said, like what would have been nothing would have changed. If you were in that car, the same thing would have happened. It's like I would have made it worse because I would have been like ah like I didn't die. So it's probably better for everyone that I was I had topic that I like to raise with my guests is about identity about how the concept of how you saw yourself changed when you became a mum. Did you sort of have any To sort of experience where you went, I mean, you did talk about before, how you were concerned that you may not be able to write again. Yeah, identity is an interesting one. I think that I have never been a person that has, when I became a mother that that became my single identity. And I'd probably say that from even when I worked, I worked as an engineer, I really struggled to say I'm an engineer, were to take that honest identity, like some people do really take their job on as an identity I never really did that. I struggled to take on I'm a writer as an identity, which probably is more impostor syndrome, you know, is, is probably the source of that more than anything. So with motherhood, I was obviously a mother, but I never saw that as a singular entity to how I was. And I think part of that was, I was able to write in those early days of motherhood, you know, a couple of months in that sort of stuff, I did go back to work. So I didn't spend, I spent a year off, but I didn't spend a prolonged period of time. So I think that really helped. I have a tendency to obsession, like I could very easily focus singularly on art, like I have to be very conscious of what is important to me in life. And I want to have strong relationships with my kids and my partner and be in the world. But I have to really be conscious to balance that and to not let obsession with writing and those kinds of things overtake it's a really conscious effort for me. Yeah, yeah. It's you find that but like, how do you I'm an all or nothing person that my psychologist has told me that many times, I, I get fixated on things, and I have to do them. Or conversely, I just couldn't do it about anything. Like it's really odd. Yeah. Like, if I've got something in my head that I want to achieve, I'll do it. But that's very rare. I'm a very unmotivated person generally. That's like, when I watched the Olympics, and you hear people their story, like, they broke their leg, but they came back, and then something else happened. And they came back, I just think, God, I would have just given up after the first thing, you know, I'm not that person at all. So I have so much admiration from people that do that. But yeah, I I'm a bit I'm a bit the same sometimes. And then I sort of think, ah, who's cooking tea tonight, you know, like, just getting this. I'm just doing doing doing and I'm like, Oh, I lift my head up and go, Oh, what's happening in the world? You know, I think it's as well like, the tension we often have in my house is my husband is a much neater person than I am. So, yeah, I can really, I can live in fields, but like, as long as there's no like dirty food and dishes and that sort of stuff. Like I can absolutely, I can tune it out. It doesn't bother me and I sometimes think, like not to overstate it. That's a gift in life, too. Because I was not someone who when the child was napping, I wasn't like, I'll quickly tidy that never occurred to me. I was there was not going to happen. I can completely relate to that. Like right, what can I do now in 45 minutes? Jumping this just exactly which I think is what you have to do, like, in those early stages in those early days of motherhood. If you are the stay at home and the babies you're doing 90% of the caregiving oh my god you can't be cleaning your house in the 45 minute nap that that child has. No, absolutely. Just makes me weary thinking about it actually. I know. But you also have to be tolerant like you have to be able to stand the mess Oh, that's the thing, isn't it? You do but you do you get you get used to a level of discomfort that then sort of disappears it's like I can handle that being there can i Yes, I can but I don't even say anymore it's absolutely spotless. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. So do you feel I know your children are six and eight, they're very capable of seeing what's happening around them. Is it important to you that they see what you're doing and what you're contributing to the world? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. And they are really proud of that to my son in particular, is, I think, my best PR agent in the world, he will always tell when he talks to his teachers and says all mums, you know, last year, he was saying all mums written a book. And this year, he was like, Can I take the book in for my teacher and to this fit, like, he tells everyone, we went into a bookshop recently, and my book was on the shelf. And he was quite a small shop. And he was very loudly, ma'am, there's your book, and I was sort of, like, cost cash Don't, don't don't. And then when we came out, and he's like, You should be so proud. Why why, you know, like, really, really sweet. So I think it's really positive for them. I think I didn't grow up in a household that, you know, when people talked about where they were artistic people in it, people read a lot and, you know, went to theater and shows and likes things, but the idea of doing it yourself was pretty foreign. So I really liked that that's a possibility for them. But they also, and I think this is good to see that you're generally not going to make a living from it, it will bring you great joy, you can have a lot of success with it. But from a fiction writing perspective, it would be 20 authors in Australia, you know, a pretty small number that get to write full time. Yeah. Yeah. So they're learning early on the realities of hanging out? Well, that it's it coexists. And it's an important part of life. But it's you might not want to put all your eggs in that basket, but also, equally, you might want to retreat, arrange your life, so that there's space for that. So you know, you can, you don't have to work full time, you don't have to, you know, be ambitious, I think we look so much to work as to give people fulfilment. And I think that's not a message that my kids get, not to say that you can't enjoy work. And that work, you know, I work in the environmental space and sustainability stuff, I think is, is really important. And so I want them to understand that responsibility. But also that, that creativity is an important thing, too, because we look so much to sport in Australia. And, and, and I know sport has a health dimension, but so did the arts. And you can pick up all those skills around teamwork by being in the theater or dancing or, you know, it's doesn't need to be so singular. Yeah, I had a conversation with the, for the podcast with a lady who is overseas, and we were talking about what happened during COVID. What stopped and what didn't stop. And I was just like, reflecting on the fact that even though they were locked down to the restrictions, hundreds of male footballers were allowed to move around this country like COVID didn't exist. But then on the other hand, every performer, you know, anyone who was doing something in the public eye that wasn't bored, just had the rug pulled out front of them, it was just really, really showing what caught our culture in Australia values. And it was really sad. Absolutely. And meanwhile, you know, 99% of the population are watching Netflix and consuming the culture that that artists produce is when I said to someone, like, everything that we touch, everything that we listen to, and we consume has been made by someone, a creative person has made that and I think we forget that, that. It's like, if we cut the arts off, you wouldn't have the radio, you wouldn't have the TV, you wouldn't have your Netflix, you wouldn't have music, you wouldn't have, you know, houses, you know, everything would start you wouldn't be driving a car because now we'll be creating, you know, beautiful cars, it would just everything would stop. And no one thinks about it in that way, like the government said. It's yeah, it's hugely disappointing. And I think that valuing of not only sport, but male sport, yes. Is just makes it particularly disappointing particularly, you know, given the role models that sports men often playing, there are a lot of issues that I think the creative types are Uh, you know, more across. You don't see them in the paper, you know, upon sort of sexual assault or harassment charges and those sorts of things, or sitting sitting in hotel rooms, snorting cocaine or something. I don't know. Sorry, maybe maybe they're doing it, but we just don't know. better at not getting caught. That's right. No, honestly, it really has been a massive eye opener, and not in a very nice way. Would you do you have anything else that you wanted to share? Like what you've got coming up? I mean, you mentioned that you've got like your official launch? Do you want to share? Sort of? I think I've got a few festivals there'll be at I could share about Yeah, so I will be at Queenscliff and Williamstown writers festivals at those. I'm talking with Tony Jordan, who is an author that I'm a huge fan of. So that feels like a very special moment. And I'm also going to Bendigo, where I will be thinking a session with Kate talking about the first time podcast, I think we're doing a live recording. Oh, cool, beat a lot of fun. And so those are coming up in May and June and the details will be on my website. Awesome. That is so cool. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just been so nice. So nice. So nice to think about creativity and kids. Like this feels like the podcast version of Rachel's book. That's incredibly flattering. Thank you. I think that's what we need. Like it has a bigger impact on women than it does on men to adventive children. Absolutely. Yeah. He's good. Keep up the good work. Likewise, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Steve Davis Father's Day Ep - marketing consultant, comedian, educator + podcaster S2 Ep62 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts The second of my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2022 features Steve Davis, a marketing consultant, educator, comedian, theatre reviewer + podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia, and a dad of 2 girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio. He recalls being 12 years old listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom and deciding then + there he was going to be a radio announcer. This morphed into journalism + Steve spent countless years in radio newsrooms in Adelaide. After being in the newsroom on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11th , + witnessing the way the journalism was used to fuel fear + increase ratings in the weeks following, Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, Talked About Marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde: There's only one thing worse than being talked about and that's not being talked about. In 2013 Steve was looking for a creative outlet and started The Adelaide Show Podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. The podcast proudly holds the title of Silver for Best Interview Podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours Steve does character-based stand up comedy as his two alter egos: Professor Sebastian Longsword from The MBA School of MBA Credentials, and Social Sales Whisperer, Darren Hill. Both have websites + linkedin profiles, + get booked to MC events + deliver talks. Steve has appeared on the reality tv series Is This Thing On? reflecting on his experience in the School of Hard Knock Knocks comedy school. Steve is driven by curiosity and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat, whether that's in a studio or around a dinner table. Today we enjoy a really fun, lively, and at times quite serious chat covering journalistic integrity, raising girls and the significance and authenticness of including children in your art and creativity. **This episode contains discussion around a near death accident + still birth** Explore Steve's worlds : Talked About Marketing / The Adelaide Show Podcast / Professor Longsword / Darren Hill Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on my special episodes to mark Australian Father's Day 2023 Steve Davis is a marketing consultant, educator and trainer, comedian, theatre reviewer and podcaster from Adelaide, South Australia and is a dad of two girls. Steve was passionate about being in radio from a young age. He recalls being 12 years old and listening to his red transistor radio in his bedroom at home and deciding then in there, he was going to be a radio announcer this morphed into journalism and Steve spent countless years in newsrooms across Adelaide radio. After a negative experience in the newsroom in Adelaide on the day the Twin Towers fell on September 11. And the weeks following Steve witnessing the way journalism was used to fuel fear and increase ratings. Steve became quite jaded. He quit within a week and joined a marketing company and was there for the next 19 years. He then decided to go out on his own and started his own marketing consultancy, talked about marketing, which is based on a saying by one of his literary heroes, Oscar Wilde, there's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about. In 2013, Steve was looking for a creative outlet, and he started the Adelaide Show podcast, a show that passionately showcases the people of the great state of South Australia. His podcast holds the title of silver for best interview podcast in Australia in the Australian Podcast Awards of 2021. Apart from podcasting, after hours, Steve does character based stand up comedy, as he's to alter egos. Professor Sebastian long sword from the MBA school of MBA credentials, and social sales whisperer, Darren Hill, hashtag D H. Both have a website and LinkedIn profiles, and they get booked to emcee events and deliver talks. Steve has also appeared in a reality TV series, based on his experience in the school of hard knocks knocks comedy school called hits this thing on. Steve is driven by curiosity, and says the formal setting of an interview is his natural habitat. Whether that's in the studio or around the dinner table. Steve certainly inhabits a strange world and he wouldn't have it any other way. He is a self proclaimed microphone tart and enjoys being behind the microphone. Today we enjoy a really fun and lively but at times quite serious chat, covering journalism, integrity, raising girls, and the significance and authenticity of including your children in your art and creativity. This episode contains discussions around a near death accident and stillbirth. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you health professionals, or from resources online. You can find a list of international resources that I've compiled on the podcast landing page Alison newman.net/podcast music you'll hear on today's episode is from LM Joe, which is my ambient and new age music trio comprising of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode thank you so much for coming on stage. It's a real pleasure to have you here on a special Father's Day episode. I'm a little bit daunted, to be honest, but I'm glad to have the chance to chat with you. Lovely. So we have met before you know full disclosure for the audience. I've met you before and I've I'm a fan of your podcast and you've been generous enough to include some of my music on your podcast in the past. So I'll just say that first. So if we talk about things and people go, I don't know what that means. You know, just put that out there but so for those I don't know what you do. Steve, can you share? What, what you spend your days doing? All right. Let's do the day part of my day that's been running my business, which is called talked about marketing, which is a little marketing consultancy. There's about five of us who hover in that orbit, primarily working with small business. And it's named after a very famous quote from Oscar Wilde, who's my literary hero, which said, there's only one thing worse than being talked about. And that's not being talked about. And when I got tipped out of a nest as in before, and had to start my own business, it just hit me in one bit that Oscar Wilde has been my totem, if you like, throughout my life, and it was just perfect to call that. So that's what I do throughout the day. And, you know, that takes me all over the place. At nighttime, it's a little bit mixed up. So I do the Adelaide Show podcast. As my, one of my little, I consider it a little community gift. I love doing it. I love sharing stories that are often heard. But then I also have ventured into the realm of stand up comedy. We might get to how that happened later. But in that I have since evolved to have two different characters. Professor Sebastien long sword who's a doddering old MBA professor. And Darrin Hill, who is a sleek, they're not sleazy, he is a he just thinks he's cooler than he is. He's a social media sales whisperer. And the sales whisperer his his big thing is hashtag D H. Which he is completely unaware of the dual meanings of that they just thinks it's his initials, but it's emblematic of how he is. Anyway. That's what I do in the evenings. Primarily, they're the main things. And look, I'd also do theater reviews. So I suppose that falls under the artistic banner, as well, reviewing Theater, which I've done for both 30 years now. Yeah. And are you still doing your training where you, you teach social media and things like that? That's right. That's part of my day job. Okay, Emily read recently over in the wonderful, far western South Australian town of Sedona doing that last week, which is about as far away from the side of South Australia that you're on? Yeah, that you could possibly get to. So, no, I'm still doing a lot of that. Oh, great, because that's how you and I first met, and when I came to one of your trainings, which was awesome. I told my dad I had to do it for for his work, but really, I was doing it for my own selfish proceeds. Yes, I remember the rationale. Yeah. And I should mention to you are from South Australia, you're in Adelaide. Have you always been living in South Australia? For most of my life, except when I turned 25. My girlfriend at the time had gone traveling Europe to find herself. And so that was it. Ball of tears, things are over. And then about 18 months later, she says that I've just discovered Hungary. I think you'd love it. So I went over and stayed for a week. There's my goodness, the stories from that week. We fit in Budapest, Vienna, and Venice. I was flying back. Sorry. We were flying back on how to fly back on New Year's Eve on whatever that year was 1991 and had to catch a train from Venice into Vienna. I booked a hotel room at the Vienna Hilton. The only place left was 350 bucks. When we got their. They said sorry, we had to let your room to someone else. So this is before mobile phones and all that sort of stuff. So what were you doing? She said there is an option. Would you mind if we put you in the Presidential Suite on the 18th floor for no extra charge? Ah. Which was fascinating. But of course when you were in that room, your whole half of the top of the Vienna Hilton on New Year's Eve, you use room service, so it ended up costing 550 bucks, but it was worth it. Anyway. So I ended up came back gave notice. I had been working at the one radio station for seven and a half years gave notice and went back a month later with a one way ticket and lived in Budapest for two years. So apart from that I have lived in South Australia. I am sorry, I just wanted to footnote my references to living in Budapest happen often it just pops up in life it shouldn't it's sad. You think there'll be some other anchor in my life, but I've got a dear listener who's listened to the Adelaide show from day one. His name is Alexis Catalina and he has a drinking game. Any episode where I may In Budapest or living in Hungary that's a really well, hello, you listening? Yes. Thanks for Yeah, one for me, do you? So going back to your beginnings, how did you first get involved? Like you're pretty you said you were you were doing something previous to starting your own business. Was that sort of in the same area? Like we always involved in this sort of, sort of area? No, it was radio. And I remember being 12 years old, sitting on my bed at home listening to five ad, which was the hot station at the time on a little red transistor radio. And whoever was on I think it was Matt Ford, but I can't remember they did a crossfade. From Deep Purple's Smoke on the Water to races, I think was racy or smoke is Oh, Carol. Yeah. You couldn't think of the worst two songs to put one after the other one is heavy grands, bluesy grant, and the other one is pop. And at that moment, I just looked up in the air and said, This is what I'm going to do. I want to be a radio announcer. And so at that point, I just fixed my head and no one could talk me out of it. I remember in high school, towards the end with the career vocations, the teachers are saying, Look, you're doing well. You shouldn't be you know, no. Radio, there's no you got it. So I had to choose down three careers. And I thought back of this, so I put down president of USA is option number one. I put down I think it was NASA astronaut number two, and radio announcer number three is at their jet. Show and I did the 12 just to fill in the time because I thought no one's going to hire a 15 year old Pimply kid as a radio announcer. And after I did a radio school course with Vaughn Harvey, the late great phone Harvey whose voice still echoes around the universe today he had one of those voices that was like, hello, I'm Warren Harvey. This is the Harvey Cardwell report. He was a very wonderful man that about three foot high like a beard of GNOME, but he was amazing. Ah, there's a there's a possibly legally questionable story that's fun to tell that involves him in my time in Hungary, which are migratory. But long story short 18 months out of school doing part time jobs. He said, Steve five and you at Mary bridge have contacted me there's a job coming up. Can you go to an interview on Sunday morning. And this now of people who don't know I was in Adelaide, Mary bridges a country town about 50 minutes away. I had no idea how far away it was. For me it was the country. So that's like three hours minimum. So I got a good mate to meet me and off. We went at 6am to go to this 10 o'clock appointment. On a Sunday, we had packed an esky. We're talking 1985 Here, packed an esky we had we end at 6:50am It's Welcome to Murray Bridge. And so we had to kill time. Anyway, I went in, did the interview at 10 and came out and said I'm on air at three o'clock this afternoon. So anyway, that started my role there. And I worked there for seven and a half years in radio. And then that turned into journalism. I mean, the radio got work in Budapest as well. I started doing some talkback in Adelaide. And this all this journalism and radio came to a head when I was on air in Adelaide when 911 happened. I was in the newsroom at mix one Oh 2.3 And five DN. When that existed, there was fog of war or whatever 5g and morphed into. And I was the one who broke the news that that would happen. And then the news director caught everyone in. And our job for the next week was to find every link we could between 911 and South Australian Adelaide to keep people on edge and glued to their radios. And I just said nah, nah, I have a higher bar for journalism. The fourth estate I think It's one of the most crucial things on this planet. And Its job is to be the guard dog of, of truth, you know, keep the lies out. And within a week I quit. And a person that I knew, said, look, I've got a marketing company. And because I also did photography needed to start with that and some writing, and I switched over to marketing where I was for 19 odd years, and then started talking about marketing after that, do you? Please tell me to shorten my answers? Okay, that's a that's a that was actually very concise answer. That was really good. And honestly, talk as much as you like, this is your this is your show, stave. Take away, you know, where you want to. It's interesting, you talk there about that. It was almost like they were they were turning the experience of 911 into like fodder, though. It was, you know, to try and diminish it in some way just to keep it entertaining and keep people listening. Does that I'm kind of looking for a link here. You talking about things? Like journalism is like the gatekeeper. Do you find these days, the amount of misinformation and disinformation and that sort of beating things up? And clickbait? Was that sort of, I guess, the start of that kind of thing? What look, I think that I had the pleasure of interviewing Peter gresty. Late last year, he's an Australian journalist who was wrongly imprisoned on trumped up charges in Egypt and was in jail for 400 days. And may I, I can't believe he agreed to be on the show. And we had a good deep warts and all chat about journalism, that and look, here's my position. That was horrible. We were still I think, the Gulf War period, or the 80s, when news started moving towards the 24 hour news cycle, which at the time, I would tell anyone who would listen that this is wrong. When you increase the volume of news you need, you have to reach lower into the barrel to fill it. And that's not good. And there's so there's that. And of course, there's a thing which the BBC has tried to stamp out recently called false equivalency, where if you've got, say, a scientist being interviewed about something, and there's someone who just has this random idea, yeah, false equivalency means you give 50% of time to the scientist and 50% of time to someone who's got no evidence to back up what they say. And so they have luckily moved to follow, I think Bertrand Russell, great English philosopher from the early 20th century, who said, you defer to an expert when they're talking about their field of expertise, but not if they veer from that. And so that sort of mixed up into I believe, we have this inclination this day and age to think we know everything. And so if something an expert is saying doesn't jive with how we see the world, we just dismiss them and not honor, the 1000 or 10,000 hours they've spent, like going through in depth. And here's the thing, there's a wonderful thing that since I discovered it early in sort of mid 2000s, this thing called the Dunning Kruger effect. It's helped me have a compass and the Dunning Kruger effect, in short, says, This was based on research over many years. When you know little about a subject, you instantly think you're an instant expert. You have no qualms. Do you have confidence to go forth? When you are actually a deep expert? They're the people who say, Well, it depends. And they understand nuance, and they know there's more to know, which works against the authority sometimes of the experts, because if they're being honest, I'd say this is within a certain probability what we think which allows others to nibble at them. Yeah, that's on one side. But there's another thing with journalism today that that I hear people say, oh, there's a conspiracy in journalism, to do things on purpose to us. And I am not a conspiracy. I'm not wired for conspiracy part. Because trying to organize people doing something together in the daylight is hard enough and never works. To think people can do it clandestine ly. So I don't think there's any grand plan in using anything to do with me. But what I do think is the numbers because Google and Facebook have robbed journalism, institutions of all their income from classified ads. They don't have the same resources, they got less people. And the only way they can survive is to, as you said, earlier, Allison, get the clickbait. So they've got to sex up their stories. And sadly, the algorithms that Facebook and YouTube use, put engagement above everything else. And the engagement that gets the most attention is typically anger and hatred. And so we've trapped ourselves into a corner, where the stomach that a proper editor has to allow a journalist to go deep and follow something through is shortchanged. Because if they allow that, and they don't have the clickbait stuff going, they don't have income to be here tomorrow. So it's messy. And there are good people out there in journalism, but the system is off funding is broken. And I would love as I would love the model that France uses to come into play where the government actually funds a certain percentage of journalists, they don't have any editorial control. But they say to the organization here, you've got these people, let them do good journalism. And I think that would make me much warmer towards the Fourth Estate these days, because it would give it breathing space to deliver stuff that sometimes I don't like, I don't care, I have to change my opinion, when new facts come to the table to be challenged. And you think about things a different way. That one sort of unwound a bit. But it isn't black and white. To me. It is flawed. It's a human enterprise. And clickbait layout just doesn't help. Sorry, I'll just finish on this one. I did an interview with Natalia boo Jenko, a couple of weeks ago, she's a Ukrainian woman who has been living in Adelaide for many years. And we did a deep dive on what's happening in Ukraine, because she's got 10 cousins still living there. And she just the absolute horror, of actual genocide that's been meted out by Russia is not enough at all at once, to get the Rupert Murdoch type organizations to continue working hard to make us and keep us interested. And so you get a celebrity who throws her top off, and that will take all the focus, because that's fine. And that gets the clicks or Tommy Lee, you know, he'll expose himself. And so that gets all the oxygen. And there are people, little kids, that the one point something million Ukrainians have been pushed to the far east of Russia, separated, it's just horrible. It really is bleak. But we don't have the appetite because they need the clickbait. And anyway, so I hope one day, and there are avenues where it is restoring itself. But yeah, it's bleak. But it's not all out to get us. That's the thing. It's just, it's just human. It's a human enterprise. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned Ukraine, because I know, like I listened to a lot of ABC and BBC Radio. And because the BBC World Service is, you know, the 24 Hour News Service. So I often leave that on while I'm asleep, you know, and then I'll wake up in the middle of the night, and I'll be like, Oh, what are they talking about? And so you do get the updates on Ukraine, but you have to almost look for, you know, it's not there. It's not the front page. It's not the first thing that comes up on the the news websites, which is it's disgraceful because the like you said, there is so much horror going on over there. And it's like, we've just blinded ourselves to have gone Oh, yeah, that happened. What was that February our year. Now, that's not happening now. You know. And there's a few people that I follow on Instagram who are constantly sharing updates and saying, This is still happening, you know, it's, we cannot forget about it, you know, we cannot just let it go and just makes me so uncomfortable that we are not, you know, banging the doors down and saying, This has to stop. This has to change because we've just, you know, Tommy Lee does his thing and we'll go oh, let's get distracted by that. You know, it's it's appalling. It's horrible. And the thing that wraps all this up is the world The Unbearable Lightness of Being, which is the title of a magnificent book by Vaclav Havel. And it's amazing movie. I'm going to watch it with friends. Again recent, soon in a couple of weeks, and that title, The Unbearable Lightness of Being, I would be happy to sit around a party a dinner table and just discuss that and teased apart for hours because our existence on this planet is light. And that lightness is unbearable, because we've got the heaviness of what's happening in Russia. And we have the light fun bits of someone doing something funny that we whom whom we know. And that's all part of it I, in the interview with Natalia, I made the comment that a little while back a few years ago, now I sort of fainted at night and fell down hit my head and discovered later that was a couple of centimeters either way, I wouldn't be here talking. And when I had to go to hospital for observation, when I came out, having been contemplating my mortal, brevity, nothing had changed in the planet, everything kept moving the buses were still gearing and you go, Ah, okay. And look, and that's how it has to be the world has to keep grinding on. And it is it is messy, are your guest recently, Lisa Sugarman, she made a point about hate, it's messy, and we just have to deal with that. So it is, and so we can't flagellate ourselves for not staying true to course, with following Ukraine. But the role of the prized role of an editor whose job has been to say, this is important, this is important, is a prized role. And I think it's an important role to play in our society. And when that is down, played, because our we need to get some sugar hits of, you know, clicks and likes, yeah, nobody is served by that. It is balanced. We can't be too hard on ourselves. But we have to try if we care about being part of this human tapestry. That's it, isn't it? It's got you've got to continue to try. And I mean, I understand you've got to have light and shade. You can't all be doom and gloom. But we can't let important things be out of our mind for too long. I don't think any but that's right, we have to survive. And we've got, you know, that thing they say on planes, where if the cabin pressure drops, put your mask on first and then help others. If we let out our oxygen be too sucked out. By being depressed by all these things over which we have little control, then we can't really help anyone. So it is a messy enterprise. That's a good analogy. That's a good way of looking at it. And that's actually a few of my mom's on the show have used that as an analogy for their own self care of looking after themselves. And then that enables them to look after their children. Because if you're if you're down, everyone is you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. Yes, I had the chance of meeting Jane Goodall through that late show many years ago. Yeah. And she's the lady who lived with apes, and we're very strident level headed conservationist. And the question I put to her was, we feel so helpless with these things, what do we do, and she said, You have to forget the big picture sometimes, and focus on what you can do on your square inch of the world and do something there, then you'll feel empowered again. And from there, as Paul Kelly sang from little things, big things grow. And that's why I was at the Ukrainian club the night before we recorded this, just to meet some of the people and support them have dinner there and pay them. And they had a room where people had donated clothes to look after some Ukrainian refugees who had come across my job quietly, the government's now stopped that there is no more invitation for Ukrainian refugees. And Natalia made the point to the trouble is, if the politicians aren't being needled by the populace, to keep it up, they can shut it down. And if the journalists aren't interested enough to keep the heat on, then the population isn't. And then the government's left off the hook. Yeah. And so it's a little sad circle there. However, there was a little thing we could do, and to be there and to support them. And that's what we could do because my family and I all went and we listened against an Italian episode in the car. We were all choking with tears at points because it is so real and heavy, but we then got to meet them and have fun and and, and engage and that's the Jane Goodall advice is very wise. So yeah, the message is we have to make our way through and look at it's not bad to look after ourselves on the way it's just getting the balance right, and we'll get it wrong. And then we correct ourselves. One last thing. Sorry. Go on. It's Allison. I love this. You are asking questions or opening up things. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People Stephen, have your mental plane. My dad had that book. I quote him all the time and I'm having a mental blank. It'll come to me in a moment. But there's a beautiful analogy that he uses, which is these huge Jumbos that fly from LA to Sydney are off course. According to him about 90 95% of the time they are off course. All that's happening it Stephen Covey, all that happens is our instruments. just nudge it back, and then nudge it back and then nudge it back. And he was saying, we have to be kind to ourselves in life, we will be off course often, but it's not a case for giving up. It's a case for just nudging back. nudging back, nudging back. Oh, I love that. Jeez, I could apply that to myself. Maybe we all can. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. I'm glad you kept on with that train of thought. Getting these little nuggets of gold All right, we're changing tack slightly. You are a father. Obviously. That's why I've got you here part of that reason. Can you share with us a little bit about your your children? Yes, I've got two daughters, AJ and Caitlin. And they're 14 and 12. AJC oldest, what can I say? They, they have, if there was a Venn diagram, between the two of them, they'd be a good bit of stuff they have in common. They both are very grounded and have a strong care ethos for others. And both can have a both are very clear. When they've decided what they want to do, they can be quite focused on that. And then you look at the bits of the Venn diagram where they're different. And AJ is this is like she should have been born in a tent. In the savanna, she is an outdoors person who loves horse riding, getting filthy, pushing herself to limit running, you know, all that sort of outdoor stuff. She talks more costly than the others, which is a little bit from her. Like grin. I think she got a lot of that from she's a little dynamo, she's short. So keep these in terms like little and doesn't give up. And just, we were at a friend's house recently at a place called bugle heart in South Australia, which is up near Renmark. Very for anyone who wants to check on a map, just inland a bit. And they have a horse, retired old racehorse big like huge horse and see that AJ hop on. And Yvette was saying, I've never seen that horse just it bought like it just it was able to trust AJ, AJ trusted it. And she said it was just magic. It was absolutely beautiful to see this pint sized little controlling this horse was just fantastic. And it was lovely. And and the other one Caitlin is more towards the reflective. She does gaming lots of talking with other people around games. And on that express, she does she's in the choir, she does drama. And she's sort of skewed that way. So they're just, you know, it's just, I love them to bits. I had the privilege recently we went to stay on a houseboat for a few days. Unfortunately, my wife couldn't make it because she was an acting head in the department she works for so and just go ahead that thrust upon us. I just needed to stay back. But it turned out to be you know, silver lining, because I got to spend just quiet downtime with them. And the thing I will remember one of the things I remember the most was the drive it was a three hour drive. And the iPhone is connected to the car sound system. And I handed it to Caitlin. I said you're the DJ. All three of us will go around and play a song but tell us why And so that whole journey I was amazed I've got great music tastes I mean, either bad for kids because I liked it or I'm just an odd but but that we all three of us said that was amazing. We learned so much. We got to hear songs we wouldn't have heard otherwise. And it was just the time just flew. Yeah, just lots of little things like that just happened throughout yeah I've got so many things, there's so many directions I could take you there after that, as I love these when I ask a question. And then you'd be the same to any journalist background like with people tell you things. And then like I'm scribbling down notes. Like, I want to know about that. I wonder about that. I love it. Be careful what you wish for. But you've already you've already got a taste. Right? We can make Part One and Part Two is gonna be like, you know, continuation challenge met. Oh, I love it. So. Okay, where will I go first? So the gills now I'm forgive me. I can't remember it might have been a J. In your recordings of your Adelaide Show podcast, here is AJ that she has a little speaking part. They both do. They both are doing okay. So Caitlin does the acknowledgement of country for beginning. But both AJ and Caitlin share the sign off at the end and AJ. So binary goes both ways. I'm gonna be random in just crazy. They call them my voiceover angels. So what made you want to include the girls in? Did they want to be a part of it? Or was it something you thought? That would be nice to have the mean? Well, they prove it's, it's, it's probably to know there'll be three strands to this. So yes, I desperately wanted them to be part of this thing. Because I was very mindful, especially when I started the Adelaide show back in 2013. That it is about 15 hours per episode. That goes into prepping it, recording it, editing it, and then promoting it. And that was a big chunk of dead time sort of taken out of the equation of the week. So none of this could have happened if Nadia, my wife hadn't understood it was you know, had to be to some degree, keep me sane. So I desperately wanted them to be part of it was one thing. Because there were a couple of times I remember when I was growing up when dad was a builder in the first part of his career, hopping in, in the school holidays, hopping into his sort of bizarre Bongo van kind of thing he had. And it felt great to be driving off to work. And I thought this is as close as it gets for providing that sort of thing. They were curious, they'd seen the mic, they played with the microphones a bit. It's probably a bit strong at that age to say they desperately want to be part of it. There was a playfulness about it. And there was another podcast I listened to. I should be careful to recommend it but it's called oh my goodness, mental blank. Here we go. It is very bad wizards. Language warning on that one. It's a philosopher and a psychologist. They're both tenured professors. They are cool dudes. But you know, that comes warts and all. And they one of his one of them is their daughter's does the opening. And she says this podcast is produced by my dad, and philosopher Baba. And they use language that I'm not allowed to say, and all that sort of stuff. And I just loved that. That intertwinement with the family connection, because they're not just these dudes. They're dudes who are situated within family systems. So this is an expression. I think it lends to some degree authenticity. On the other degree. Yeah, maybe I'm like those parents who are living vicariously through their kids as well. So it is it is how it is. I love it. I love it. Hearing it every time it makes me stop. I can't stop it until they finish talking. Yeah. Oh, that's lovely. That's so nice. I mean, I can relate to that. I've put Digby in my, just as it's halfway through the episode. I've got him going, you're listening to that being mum with my mom, Alison Newman. It's like, I couldn't have anyone else do it. I've got a friend of mine recorded it for me. She's like, got a beautiful voice really good. VoiceOver. And in the end, I thought, no offense, Danny. Sorry. It has to be Digby, because he's my child, you know, and I'm talking about monster. But I think you're right, it gives it gives this realism, it makes people accessible. And they're not just a voice that you hear, you know, through your headphones or in the car or whatever. They're an actual real person, you can feel the connections that they have. And yeah, that authenticity really comes through. And it gives you a taste into the sort of person they are, you know, that they're, I mean, obviously professional, but not professional enough to ignore the fact that they do have a life outside of what they're doing. I guess, if that's a way of Does that make sense? Yeah, look, I think you've touched on a really important thing there with the podcast, genre. Same with radio, but podcast is a bit different. Because we podcast, a listener has to seek it out. And actively say I want to listen to you. And you are right in their ears, Allison, every single episode. So there is an intimacy that builds from that. And the fact that you're also have your child I think slept it's like imagine if you've gone over to your place for dinner, they'll be there. And so you have got the adult time around the table. But there's also the meet and greet and the interruptions, you know, and that's all part of it. I've started doing that with my clients or talked about marketing, actually, instead of having end of year events, I am slowly it's going to take 50 years working through that, or groups of two or four to come to our makeshift cinema at home, I cook a meal. And then we all watch as a group, just a movie together. So we kept socialized with no talk of business allowed is wonderful. And it is that enmeshing of everything. It's, hey, this is life, you know, we're not these, because I think the big bad thing that happened with especially from what I can tell the sort of 50s 60s 70s and 80s, and probably even lingering with a bloke went off to this other professional world and was out there, and then had to come home and sort of like lower down to the mundane of family, which is a horrible dichotomy. I think we've moved beyond that. And I think it's taken a lot more gender balance or striving towards that. In a growing up, we're still not there. We're still miles away. But just the Yeah, you have to just accept that I can't go today. It's a kid sports day, or it's happened to me last week, girls had gastro and had to be home. So, you know, you just and that's going to dent into things. And I think clients who won't acknowledge that are assholes who are not showing any human respect. And one of the tenets of talked about marketing is that business is personal. It's humans, working for serving other humans. That's the that's what happens. And that means we are part of systems and the family is a system that we're part of. Hmm, I loved how you got so passionate, then I could see your point of view. I love it. Now Good on you. That it's so important. I think that's so true. Like I think back to my dad's generation, like he had an AI what happened? Exactly, I wasn't there. But you sort of see the flow on effects of it. And there wouldn't there would have been a massive separation between the the father's work life, his home life, his social life, even you know, when I when I was a kid, my dad grew up in Colorado, which is a little town probably 40 minutes away. We're really tiny town. And they had a real old traditional pub where you had the saloon bar, you know, the front bar. Women and children were never allowed in the front bar. It was like this rule, unspoken rule, but it was very well followed. So we'd go to the pub for tea, Dad would disappear. We'd fall asleep on the chairs in the, you know, the restaurant, you know, that's what happened. And one of the first times I ever went into the front bar, and I caught myself and went, hang on, I'm in the front but like it was just this weird feeling. I'm not allowed in the front. But, you know, as an adult, I think it wouldn't have even been my grandmother's funeral. You know, it was that I recently and I was like, Oh my gosh, and you think in that one generation how much things have changed? And I think a lot of that you talk about the gender balance I think that's true that you know, men have recognized that that's probably not ideal for the family unit and I think women have stepped up a bit and gone Hang on, we're not gonna sit out there in the heat in the lounge with the kids though. Right? You know, we're a family unit. This is how we're going to be but yeah, that just reminded me of and that was just in my dad's you know, when I when I was growing up how deep those roots are that you still had that oh, yeah, right back where it sits in my sister's wearing the front god oh good day Listen, I want to pick up you said something Woody, I think you nailed it. When you said it's the separation of the two parts of their life. And that's an important word, as opposed to an amalgamation. You know that people talk about work life balance, we can't have that unless it is that warts and all holistic you who brings stories and fatigue and being energized to both ends based on what's happening. I work from home, primarily. And so my girls get to see me worn out stressed, excited, you know, the whole bit, which may be good or bad. Maybe there was a benefit of being shielded from that? No, I don't think so. I think they, I want them to have an appreciation that life as an adult, is, can be pretty intense. And resilience, which is a theme that comes up a lot on this podcast is going to be one of the most invaluable things you can have in your toolkit. How you teach it, I don't know, but partly watching the ebbs and flows and knowing that it ebbs and flows. So it does go up and go down. There's a lot more down that rabbit hole. And I'm gonna continue with this topic. And I love I love talking about important stuff and meaningful stuff. So yeah, I don't mind that we were just gonna keep going. When I was growing up, I never saw that there was a bad side to being a parent, I just thought parents did their thing. And everything was fine. And they looked after us and and then obviously, when I realized for myself that it's an absolute cheat show. I've been I don't know whether I've done it on purpose, or I've just allowed it to happen, that my children say everything, pretty much. I know my mum, she came from a background where they were very protected from things. So she brought that into our own lives of, you know, hiding things from us not sharing bad things from us with us just to sort of shield us. But I just I, to a degree, I pretty much my kids know everything that's going on with me. And I unlike you said I don't know if that's good or bad. But I just think it's a reality of life. I don't I don't want my kids to grow up with this idea that everything's rosy and happy and things never go wrong. And then they get into adulthood and have the experience that I did where they went, Oh Christ. What's all this? You know? Absolutely. I look i i think the beautiful thing is the beautifully painful thing is, there's no right or wrong that I'm aware of no one's written this ultimate guide. That answers his question properly. And it I say ebbs and flows. Again, one generation has one experience and go here. I want to keep that bit and lose that bit too. We'll try and steer it this direction. Yeah, and I remember some sociological sociologist, or anthropologist, one or two, talking about how you have this pendulum swing of attitudes that go back and forth from generation to generation. The generation emerging now is tending not to drink alcohol or smoke because they've seen how bad that is from the previous ones, and then the next ones might be other way. I find that so interesting. I guess the thing that gnaws at me with our open approach is, when are you ready for the full throttle front row seat of being an adult? as well. So there are still things that rightly or wrongly, try to shield? Yeah, yeah. So it's like training wheels a little bit. Interestingly, this we, we, before our daughters, we had a stillborn child, little boy. And we hadn't told the girls. And it just, ah, it came up somewhere. I think it was walleyes. Why in the Riverland, with the girls, because of a conversation piece that someone led with. And I found out that my eldest had been told because by Naughty I didn't know this because she was filling out some government form. And AJ being acquisitive, Snoop saw it and said, What's this? And other ones? Okay, and it was just accepted. And, you know, who knows? I think we could make, or I had certainly made out to be something that could be more life shattering to them than might otherwise have been, I was just going to wait, I was going to hide it forever. But I was just waiting till there was levels of different maturity to discuss it, because at the time it was, it was destructive. Like it's just horrible to experience firsthand as the parent or one of the parents. But it's different, I suppose, with distance, and it's abstract. And where did that come from? Or that came from? How much trying to get this right, it is a messy process. And because I did read a lot of books, when Parenthood was on the horizon for the first time, and I don't know how helpful they were. Because it's like, if I had to write down the instructions on how to pour a glass of water, that's warm. I think if I hand wrote every consideration, that took into account judging the temperature, making sure the glass itself isn't too cold, you know, angle, all these sorts of things. Yeah, it would actually be overwhelming when it's really simple. So books about parenting can make it seem more of a mountain than it is. It's still a mountain part. I think we kind of have to take our own pathway up there somehow, and hopefully reach out to people who try who have trodden the path before, when we ask. Yes, that's a very good point. Yes. Yeah, cuz that's so true. Like everyone's experience, everyone's parenting, how they were parented. Every child is different, you know, there is no book that's going to tell you how to raise your actual particular job. It's possible that some of the books, some of the things and some of the books helped, I just can't place it. It could well have echoed around the subconscious. But it is a moment. What was for me a moment of blind, anxiety, panic and excitement, the moment we walked out of hospital with AJR firstborn and putting her in the car, realizing that I'm now responsible for someone who has no way of defending themselves. That was the most nerve wracking drive ever. Where it really became real because you couldn't just tag team and nurse that was it baby. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. So you've mentioned your wife a couple of times, no idea what to say A good question. She works in a field, I understand very little of which is systems analysis. And so basically, when a organization wants to revisit how they all these different data systems all work together, she is an analyst who gets into the weeds with that. But she is one of these people who is the translator between the business and what the business needs, and the geeky nerdy texts of whom I count many within my friends circle into a language that they understand because it is chalk and cheese. And so people like Nadia, make things happen that actually match what the business needs, as opposed to going off down rabbit holes, which is my gift. That's like she translates between the two worlds. Yeah, that's basic. I think that's it in a nutshell. Yeah. There you go. Good on it. So you talked before about the thing you said was 15 hours to eat for an episode, which is actually interesting. It's made me think about how this how long this takes me. When you've sort of and you said she understands that this is something you need to do, this is like your outlet. This is important. Does she have things on her side that she has to do that? It's like her outlet? We talked about that? You know, putting on your mask first? That sort of stuff? Yep. Netball coaching. Yeah, she is the coach of both of my daughter's netball teams has been for five years or so. So and that means at all the games, running the practice sessions, thinking about strategy, you know, watching other games, to get inspiration. You know, just dealing with the bureaucracy within the education department sometimes when you are trying to do your best to volunteer. And you know, not necessarily always being having that lovely, gift respected having to jump through different hoops. Not I'm not talking at the Child Protection stuff. But that's really important. That's going to happen. But there is some ridiculous bureaucracy that happens from time to time. Anyway, that aside, that's her. Xe just thrives on that. And because she's been an Ebola herself, her mum was a netballer. She's from Tintin era, which is a little town in South Australia. So she grew up in the country. Netball really was part of life. Oh, yeah. And has instilled that and now. Definitely the oldest. I mean, I think that's helped keep the girls excited and fascinated. They're both moving up through for trials for club teams and state teams. And AJ has just progressed on our way to an Olympic squad thing. So wow, it's just I mean, very early days, like really tiny step forward. But yeah, that's pretty awesome. Yeah. It's certainly there any dreams you had of going to the Olympics? Exactly. Because I know people would look at me and think oh, wow, you're really wiry sort of athletic build Steve. Or the opposite? Yeah. So no. So I think that certainly gives her some grounding outside of the nine to five. Yeah, that's awesome. That's good. I want to talk about you've got two daughters. Do you ever feel daunted and nervous and concerned or I don't know if they the words but bringing up to girls in the world that we're in in the world that is changing and becoming? What do you thoughts about that? Many faceted. It makes you well. Okay. Wow, you know how to ask the question. On one hand, I think the growing up many layers of society are doing in embracing the actual positive business benefits of diversity in leadership teams and teams general. The more that works its way through the less one's gender or ethnicity should be used as an exclusion factor. It means that if there are bastions left, which I'm sure there are where it's blokes, they will continue dissolving so that my daughters aren't repelled by those arbitrary divisions. So part of me is hopeful on that front. And look, heaven forbid, I'm, I would expect, and I see there's a lot of, interestingly, did the sums of the day in my marketing more than 8000 business people have been in my various workshops, and therefore I've done mentoring with them over the time, I would say, close to 90% of those would be women, often solopreneurs, or running small businesses. So in some ways, I hope through hearing stories about my clients, that if the girls have an idea of something they want to do, they do it themselves, they don't have to go through a system beholden to other people's opinions. Because the market doesn't seem to be as discriminatory the market doesn't care if it's a product or service that they want they want. It's it's the bat covering within systemic HR systems and our blokes clubs and, and what have where we get stimulated in progress on that front. We've done our best to well, we have we've done our best to be encouraging, of blocking out blowing away any senses of limit. Yeah. I think and got to, the girls get to meet all different sorts of people they wouldn't otherwise, thankfully, through my podcast, got them to mean lots of different people was just, I think part of what can trap us apart from systemic things that are happening in the society, self limiting things which come from not seeing other role models. And so reading or meeting people who have forged different pathways just goes on, it means it's not even a thought that I can't do X. So from that side, that's one thing, then you've got the threat of violence. Out there, and that is disconcerting in many levels. Because I, I have become aware in recent years of how even I'm not really a masculine guy, I've never actually been in a fight. But I don't, and I know, there are times when my hackles are up, walking around late at night, going back to a car from a theater show, in some places, practice, not often it's very rare. But I've been awakened in some of the deeper conversations I've had in the last 10 years that as a female in this society, that's a privilege that I've got not to have to be on guard a lot more permanently, like really aware of it. And so I have to acknowledge I've got blinkers on and it's just the nature of the bloody chromosomes are as given and the society that has built up around me so I don't know what to make of that one thing that only give that gives me a little bit of hope that it might well this is the external stuff then you've got the internal with domestic violence too. But if we look at externally, when you actually do methodical reflection on data, we are living in the safest time ever in human history. Which goes Whoa, you met Oh, hang on, hang on a minute, but statistically it really is. It doesn't mean it's I've got full heartedly saying that. Yeah, let's go off we go abandoned. So lazy, but comparatively, it is it when you actually hear I think it was I think pinker is the researcher who's done this. But I've heard really deep analysis of this, it's and it makes sense. And it also is why our girls go off all over the shop with their bikes, walking, catching buses. Because I was told by my cognitive science mate who did by survey Fanta, who made it made me sit down and push my face into this data and say, Hey, Mr. Murdoch, and his people want to drum up all the fear. But let's be realistic, when you look at what the real risks are, it is minuscule. And so if you give into that, you're robbing them of experiences. So there's that side. And then there's the What about when they're in a relationship with someone and behind closed doors. And I, I don't know, what I do know is hopefully picking up on cues, if there is any sense of trouble. And by blooming large in the life circle of my daughters, so that any potential spouses and other family members and friends are very aware that this is a switched on engaged, family. And this you're not being dismissed, because that is the figures on domestic violence. And murder is it's like that Ukraine thing we talked about? Yeah. So I can't throw the first stone and say, Hey, everyone, we're all being bad. We're not reflecting on Ukraine, because I'm not reflecting on this every day as much as I should, either. And this is back, eternal, crazy, balancing act that will never be perfected. So yeah, that's a long wrap. I'm in balance, really optimistic and looking forward to them just chewing up this world. I think the world needs both of my daughters. They both have amazing gifts to bring in. And I'm hoping it's not just dad wonder that saying that I'm looking at these people as humans, compared to all the humans I've met, and there's some dead set incredible power these girls have for good that they can extend apply to the world and to their their lives. So I am glass half full, despite all of that, but I'm just letting you know that I'm aware of the balls in that glass. Talk to me about the Adelaide Show podcast for people who haven't heard it. It's not about the Adelaide show. Just let's put that out there. First. It's not about the actual Adelaide show. It's a show about Adelaide. The Adelaide show is where he puts South Australian passion on center stage. So it because I'm a South Ozzy and from Adelaide. There's a couple of things. First of all, in 2013, it began well, there's a really bizarre story about how it began, which actually it was close to your part of the world, Allison. And I think look, I think it I think it's worth to sharing it briefly because it does give an insight into the seemingly unquenchable energy and drive that I've got for it. It was 2013. And I was at Chardonnay launch down in southeast South Australia, away from home again, running workshops. And just the so much stress was crushing me. I was I would have been happy to step off the planet. And were it not for having a three year old, a five year old and a partner. And I thought something's got to give here. Something's got to change. I need an expression outside of work because I haven't heard heritage my dad's workaholism. And so I do work 15 hours a day minimum. Like there's rare that that's less than that. And that's bordering on seven days a week and I feel Life was just filling out cardboard. And a friend had said to me, which would you be interested in? We were both angry that all this Twitter stuff was happening. Say Adelaide is boring because Adelaide as an Australian batch of jokes is considered the boring town, along with Canberra there, the two of them get there. And I had this realization, I said, Ah, Colin, we should do this. This is what I want to read, tap into my radio past and do something. And so with Colin long and Brett mountain, we created a podcast called another boring Thursday night in Adelaide. Because we wanted to meet this head on and stare down anyone who said Adelaide is boring. And I grew up as a band called red gum. And they had song called one more boring Thursday night in Adelaide, a tongue in cheek. Funny song. And so I know John Schuhmann. He's been on my podcast, he's a great bloke. And I said, Look, could we use the opening 30 seconds of that song as our theme song? And he said, Look, I'd love you to but I don't own the rights anymore. talk to these people in Sydney. And they said soy came $1,500 per year. Well, there's no way Nadia is going to I mean, she's lovely. But Brett is a singer songwriter. So he ran our own tunes on our own theme song. And so we started three guys. And at that point, it wasn't an interview focused program. It was it was actually a lot of fun. We would talk about different bits of Adelaide and South Australia. And we also had a thing called the the Adelaide visa segment, in which I would bring three samples of tweets in which people had used the word boring and Adelaide in a tweet. And we would sit in session as a visa counsel and discuss the pros and cons. And either they get away with it. They're making a good point, in which case combined with big stamping, they get a visa. And if they are not, we cancel their visa. And then we tweak this to people. And we would say you you have had your Adelaide visa rejected. Anyway, we had really one guy, tweet back say I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I love Adela. And he was actually the best right he was the head of the the Adelaide United Soccer fan club. And so what in our in our judgment. We had cited that saying you have a higher responsibility. Good luck getting in next time you travel interstate to see the team good luck getting back into South Australia. He was so apologetic. We then reversed that gave him his visa back. And so there's this bit. We created a bit of Hullabaloo, we got a little bit of media coverage about what we were doing. And and then back by episode 80. We did every week. In fact, the first five years of the podcast was weekly and did not miss a single week. By week 80. We just started to discuss we dealt with that. There wasn't much left of people saying Adelaide was boring. And we've moved towards more interview format. And we there is an opening coming up and the PR person said we'd love to invite you but the clients nervous about having another boring one another boring, the boring thing they didn't, you know, we've outgrown that. Let's call ourselves the Adelaide show, and rejiggered so now we're not trying to react against something negative, we're going full bore positive. Yeah. And so we've had that in our first guest was Paul Gordon, who's a social media lawyer. And the whole interview was about right. If I was part of the Royal Adelaide show, could I sue us for calling ourselves the Adelaide Show podcast? And so we had the whole legal discussion, in which he said there were no grounds so that we could go forward. And if any, if they made any moves against us, we could say well listen to episode 80. And it will save us all the legal fees. And we then ended up doing we got invited we got clutched to their bosom, we got invited into their world. And we had some amazing interviews with the Adelaide. So the Royal Adelaide show. And in fact, the river land trip was as a direct result of that the former president had invited us up to do a special bond and we went back we caught up with him while we were there. So it's just as long story short since then, would apisto episode at this time 357 And I just Look for South Australians who are passionately engaged in some sort of endeavor. They don't have to have any celebrity standing. Few do, they just need to be wanting to talk about the thing they care about? Whether it's doing magic, whether it's their Ukrainian hometown, whether it's the history of rabbits in Australia, you know, science, health, acting, you know, drama movies, you know, you name it, we have talked about nuclear physics. You know, we've covered everything. And it's just for me, it is perpetually propelled by my curiosity. I've just, I've just got that DNA makeup that I'm always just, you know. So and I can relate to that. Exactly. Wonderful. Love it. So it's a eclectic. And on the homepage at the Adelaide show.com. Today, you we've got the current episode is on front, but also on the right hand side is, there's about 12 or 13 different categories, so people can click through to choose a clutch of programs of a topic they care about, and probably a really heartening thing is as we speak. We are currently the holder of silver for best interview podcast in Australia. Ah, congratulation. That was Thank you. It was awesome. It was lovely. And, and I like that because it's judged by my it by peers, by professionals in the media, it's not just a popularity show. And because I think it's lovely, the I love the dynamic of an interview environment, whether it's at a dinner party or in a studio, wherever around the table. There's something about the asking questions, and then the listening to answers, and then picking up on something from that answer to ask another question. And then shifting topic, that I just love that and we don't get much of a chance to do that in the short bites we get in the rush of life, and certainly, in the mainstream media shows they've got 10 seconds is considered a long answer. And you never get to depth. Yes, yes. Whereas at least with my answers, you've got not only some depth, I hope, but also a cure for insomnia. If you're listening to this while your head is nestled on a pillow somewhere you do have a beautifully soothing voice. Diaper I look I so agree with that. And I feel like Australia used to have before the rise of this reality TV, we used to have really good quality what were they called? Ah, it's on the tip of my tongue but like not variety shows, but all those I mean, like shows were would be real people and they would have discussions and like Andrew Denton was is one of my favorite interviewers because he does that thing real asked his question. And like he said, wait for the answer. And then from that he'll find somebody else to talk about. And I love that and and Ray Martin gives me the absolute sheets because it's like literally reading off his little clipboard. This is my next question. No matter if the person just said something so groundbreaking It would change the world he just go. Right My next question is this like it never deviate from his plan? And I feel like yes, we've really lost and the time because everything has to be in short bites to keep people engaged. You know? I don't know we've we've lost that. I mean, the ABC still does a pretty good on shows like, like Australian story and things like that, where you delve into people. But that just that back and forth conversation and then maybe that's where podcasts are coming into their own. You know, maybe that's where things have changed a little bit, but I love conversation like i i saw I'm getting really warmed up now I'm shaking my fist. Go for it. I can see it. Oh, I I know there's a place for small talk because there's a lot of time in life necessarily, but I that it really irritates me. Like, I want to know about people I want to know what makes them tick and why they do what they do and the factors that influence them. And like, I don't know, I'm just indulging myself in this, this podcast world. And people listened to it and that's really nice, but I feel like it's like I love talking to people about proper stuff. Well, yes, that's how we craft craft meaning in life. Yeah. And I look there is a place for small talk because there is the that forms the little bonds between each other it sort of aligns ourselves but then to stay there is an impoverished experience whereas to use that to then propel deeper in Two topics will be great. I mean, my character Darren Hill next week is going to be the emcee some business awards. And they've have a networking period back 20 minutes. And he is going to give them some questions to start that networking. And they will be the most unexpected observed topics you could ever imagine. And my thinking there is we people clam up, because most of us, according to I think psychologists, who can tell us is actually worried about how we look at it dominates 95 plus percent of our attention. And so everyone's worried of what they look like, without realizing well, that means that no one's really worrying about what they look like, because everyone's worried about themselves. Yeah, they're to put the question forward in a networking event, people either bombastically say, hey, come and buy my thing. Or they sort of too nervous to do anything. But if they've been given permission by this stupidly crazy emcee to ask people, if you're a cat, you know, what kind of further would you prefer to have? And would you consider added I haven't even made I haven't been worked out yet. But it breaks the ice, because it's a little trick. I'm making them not look at each other, with everything being high stakes, but I'm saying, Hey, look over there. And while you're doing that, guess what? You're now in conversation? Yeah. And so yeah, that just breaks that ice. It's why little trick that I do with the Adelaide show. Mostly, not always, because sometimes I've got some pre recorded, it starts with the South Australian drink of the week. And what we have typically done when it's face to face, it's changed a bit the last couple of years. But typically, I asked the guest to bring a South Australian alcoholic beverage if they drink alcohol, yeah. To share, and so we drink that, how may I find out about why they chose this wine, and I do my bizarre wine tasting notes and all that sort of stuff. But what it's doing is it's that same trick, look over there. They're now not panicking about the interview. Plus the alcohols just lubricated things a little bit. Thank you very much. And I had a free drink. And there was a period there where there was this ongoing serial jealousy between guests, and they kept bringing more and more expensive bottles of wine until someone bought a Penfolds Grange. Fine, which is we're talking $650 A bottle, or even an Australian dollars. That's a lot for your American listeners. About $45 American but it was, you know, beautiful. It's and it was fun. And it's just that trick. I don't know how we got onto that. Now talking, yes, deep conversation. Sometimes it just takes that little bumper car to knock us out of being straight jacketed. And suddenly it's like, it's the pressures off. Yeah, that's it. We can play. Yeah. Yes. And that's when all the good things fly. All the good juicy stuff comes in. So you talked about D H there a little bit of share, how how did you get involved with comedy, and through the podcast. I was about throes to just before 2018. I entered the Australian Podcast Awards with Adelaide. So we went over for the awards. We didn't we were finalists for best news and current affairs podcast. But I got to meet Marie Morgan who ran the school of hard knocks, which was a comedy score. And a couple of months later, he said Steve, we're going to run a class in Adelaide, would you consider promoting it for us? And I said, What is this a stand up comedy course? Yeah, he said five nights. Glenn Nicholas will be the teacher now Glen Nicholas, many Australian listeners might remember on a fantastic so the ABC used to have called the big gig in the 90s which had the Doug Anthony all stars and all sorts of comedians. He had a character called pat a biscuit in which he dressed up as Patsy Bisco. Supposedly a a school kid at little children's Keep with a little Bongo. Bongo, yes, behind you behind you. Yes, he is hilarious. He was going to be the teacher. And so he said, the thing is you have four nights of working up and creating material. And on the fifth night, we have a performance that you invite friends and family, they pay tickets, I come along, and we put on a stand up so with a couple of other comedians as the main X. And I said, Look, what if you put me through it? And I will because it was about 600 bucks to do the course. And is, and I would cover it thinking, because I've always wanted to do it. It was the last bastion for me of pushing because I love talking. comedy was like, no safety net. And I thought our eldest asked, he'll say No, I said, Okay, you're on. So he called my bluff. Yeah. And I remember going to the first rehearsal. driving across town, you had to come with two minutes of Stand Up material, having never done it before. Glenn could get a bit of a feel for it. I could feel my pulse. In one of my eyebrows. As I was so nervous, the blood pressure was just shaking. So Mr. Hop in front of any crowd, all good was suddenly this ball of Wired, panic. Anyway, did it kind of got a laugh or two, and I'm not much and we're all just as bad as each other. And then Glenn just has the most masterful way of unpicking things and looking for their their strengths and suggesting this might not be an area forward, but this one. Anyway, long story short, did the opening night. It was hilarious, great fun, and got the bill, it was just nice to have it done, the thing I learned the most from it was structure. The key difference between someone who can make people laugh at the pub, and someone who's doing it professionally is the professional will make sure that the part of the punch line that delivers the punch is the final part of the sentence. So when we just tell a yarn around the pub will often deliver that, but there's a bit more of the sentence just to finish off. And we're in friendly company. So people sort of laugh, but it's so much more powerful when you go bang. And really apart from other stuff. That is the most fundamental thing that I've taught. So I did that. A few months later, they were going to do the course again in Melbourne, but filmed it for a TV show, which is now online. You can watch this on YouTube, it's called Is this thing on? And it's a six part reality TV show. Yes, the thing we hate daddy were different when you're in. Where they ran, Glenn was the teacher again. But they did a different structure was six days and nights. There were 10 of us. And they went through the course again. But each day there was a different comedian guest who was going to teach us something. So Eliot goblet is another person from the past. Jack Levis, his real name. He talked about short punch lines and being a bit absurd and also a number of different comedians. And that was fascinating to perform. At the end of that week, having been filmed every moment, there was a bit midway through ice working on material and I just had this moment of panic. All my confidence, shattered through the basement and disappeared. And I I went to see Glenn was doing a lunch break. I said Glenn Claver chat, and I said, Glenn, I can't do this. I have a fake. And I just remember it beautifully. And it was just he and I and he said I have directed huge names, actors around the country. Everyone experiences this. There's a little voice on your shoulder that's whispering in your ear and this one I want you to do turn your head to that voice and say to it back off. Back off. And he said because it's got no right to be there. So let's regroup. And sure enough it was just the most beautiful bond he and I had dear friends To this day, and when my shows I've done especially the professor, long sword shows, he was my director. And he just knows how to bring the gold to the surface. He sort of lay down a footpath. And he goes, Oh, there's a gold coin. There's a gold coin that any Wow. And so. So the comedy thing, that was how that happened. Yeah. And then that was just doing stand up. And then because in my marketing day work, I've done an MBA, I think MBAs have some value, but there's a lot of bank. They can be, they can be. And so the professor was developed as an outlet for this. Just poke fun at the whole MBA enterprise, because MBAs used to be a four year solid degree when they started that 100 years ago. And now you see them, hey, three month MBA, and it's just this shunting people through. So the professor took it all the way at the fringe a couple of years ago, and he had the lunchtime NBA, when you come for lunch, and leave with a degree. And, and it was quite hilarious. So So that's poking fun there. And Darren Hill is a new character who pokes fun at the ludicrous aspects of this whole social media, influencer phenomenon. He, he talks about, he's the one who stands behind to make the social media stars. In fact, he's given birth to more social influence social media influences, then Kris Jenner. And so, you know, he's, he's right there. And just takes that to that extreme. Yeah, yeah, he's really broad, and AKA, whereas the professor is much more, much more reflective, and sort of higher English. Yeah. I don't sure if I fully answered the question, but I can't remember what it was, it was about what prompted them. And that's how I got to these characters, how you got into quarantine, because I've got material from both of those strands of my marketing work. And I can poke them out in different directions, and have fun with them at the professor has just delivered. Its online now a 15 Min, I think it's a 13 minute MBA meditation that you can listen to, and He will guide you through a meditation. And it all started because I am actually doing a meditation course with Sam Harris at the moment, which is amazing. 10 minutes every day. And he starts off and then there's quiet. And then he comes on. And so with the professor, I just wanted I just had this idea to I want you to focus very closely and read something from Philip Kotler is marketing book. And then there's silence. And then there's little and he pretends that no one's heard this. And then he gives him something else. And then this little rattle of his tea cup because he doesn't quite get it. And then he just is. I just wanted to get that out of my system. Yeah. Because he's a Daughtery. He's like a Mr. Magoo. He, and there's quite this thing where Tuesday nights I have the faculty meeting in the school hot tub, and they're all nude. And it was bonding. And so he's just lives in. I guess I live in fantasy worlds. When I get into those characters. They're both on LinkedIn as you can follow these people on LinkedIn. I'm laughing like I love that Sebastian long sought on LinkedIn keeps getting these LinkedIn messages saying, hey, there's a professor job open at Flinders University, and very tempted to apply for one at some point. Geez, that is brilliant. That is that's a bit of Lera can mischief awesome. Yes, my goal was get exposed to all of this coming back to you yells, yes. Identity about how sorry, I'm gonna just have to go ask my three rowdy people out there who are playing table tennis just to keep it down. Sorry, Steve. is actually five of them out there. My oldest son's got two friends over. That's why it's so damn loud out there. All right, good. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. I'm here all day. Listen, is it going hang on a moment? Really? All right. We've got so much time Fitzy isn't that the good thing about podcasts? You can press pause, and you can come back to it later. You know? Exactly. I love that. Because someone told me one time I had this really long episode. And someone told me I should make like to cut it into two. And I said, No, but that's up to people, like everyone's listening to this in a different environment, they might want to listen to it for that long. Well, they might want to come back to it later. So it's not up to me to decide for people. I just do a benevolent, benevolent dictator, a benevolent podcast, I haven't been able to. All right, Steve, that didn't have children? How did you your view of yourself? Or how you saw yourself, change or not change might not have I don't know, when you became a father, did anything change in my self identity, pre and post children? Look, it surely did. Subterranean leave, if I can just make up an adverb on the fly. Because I wasn't necessarily convinced of the parent enterprise as something, I kind of knew I had a societal and social responsibility to do this. Because I am prone to slipping into where evolutionary thinking from time to time, and understanding that, ultimately, I'm here, because the genes within me want and need to replicate to maintain their march of existence. And so I sort of have to go along the way. I mean, you can go way too far and be very reductionist in understanding life. But I'm aware of that that we need. Well, I need probably a bit strong, but yeah, that is the way of things. And it is actually noted. And I know, I knew that. It was, for me. A profound source of me, it gave meaning to my life, to be doing my tag team bit form the genes within me, which sounds very cold and like a James Bond villain. But there was that role, but I wasn't ready. I didn't feel ready. I didn't feel like a parent. Because parents are these different types of people who kind of have their shit together. And they eat they run things. And parents. They know what to do. And they just do stuff. So I wasn't there. And so it was late. I was late. I'm one of them. Let me just quickly do the I reckon I was close to 40. or there abouts. When I ventured into parenthood. I suppose we could say that given there's a 10 year age difference between Nadia and me. Nadia was still in what might be considered the Goldilocks zone, age wise for women. So this is dodging the question. No, I'm I'm trying to enter the question and finding the right entrance point. I just wasn't ready. And I didn't think I could. But at the same time, that there's a thing inside me that happens whenever I go to run a new workshop. So even the workshop you would have seen me do or any performance, you get to a point we say well, nothing can stop now we have to step out on that stage and just do it. And that was the way with which I approached parenthood. We just had to step on this way. So we had the unfortunate first step, which was heart rending. I remember driving back from the hospital to get a few things to take back after the baby had been removed and placed aside the body. Just screaming in tears on the phone to a couple of dear friends who were just you know, God sends we rebuild our world and not is very pragmatic person. And so right we're getting back onto this. See parent material. And so in the lead up to age as birth. The naming thing probably drew me in. Okay, so I am a huge fan of Leonard Cohen. I am his biggest fam, I am obsessed by the man. He was my absentee dad growing up. I had a dad but because I'd moved out of home very early, driving the highways late at night, his songs and concepts would be telling me stories. And he was my company. And I love his poetry. And so I convinced Nadia that the when we knew we were going to have a girl, I said, can I go and choose all the female names Leonard Cohen's used in all his written works, songs and poems, and put them in a poll and asked the world to vote on what our daughter's name would be. And so she crazily said yes, so I did this. And back, then we're talking 2008, there was a thing called pole daddy, which is ironic. Yeah. And so we put this up, we had 1000 votes. And the one on top was Alexandria. And thankfully, it was Alexandria, then Suzanne, and then Heather. And anyway, so I, that was me, I think, trying to connect my world of the poet reflector. Being in meshed with the stuff of life, the messy, bloody DNA of life. So that hooked me in. And I remember one thing very clearly. Alexandra was born, Nadia was taken to a room to sort of recover. And I was taken back into the room and there was AJ, in a little cot, wrapped up in that blanket the way they do so you get a good dose of claustrophobia right from the word go. And I was quietly getting my laptop out to do work. And just as it was about to open, I was struck by fear that the first thing AJ would hear was the Microsoft music when the computer opened, and I slammed the lid, I couldn't let that be the case. And so I reached into my bag and brought out the complete works of William Shakespeare as you do, as you do, and I went over by her, and I read a sonnet to her. So that making me that was the first thing that she heard. And then I opened up and I played Alexandra leaving, which is the Leonard Cohen song that she's named after. And they are the first two things apart from the doctors and nurses that she heard in her life. And I was just yeah, that was part of me getting in still very superficial, you know, haven't earned any dead points yet. I've earned my radio producer, journalist curator points. It was then being taken in and taught how to bathe AJ by the nurse, which was fear instilling this little thing just hardly bigger than your hand and you had to do this and it would squirm around and it had bones and flesh and stuff. And but then doing that more at home, changing nappies how quickly we forget what that was really like, but you just shut up and do it. And to be honest, although I tried to do my bits, I've been the workaholic and with Nadia having the chance to have some time off from work to to get she took the lead in that first year or two. And I my floor is that I think I am very aural based language based I needed a language connection to really deeply like so I was committed. Yeah, she i i love the fact that we let her was and was mainly me lobbying for this let her sleep in the bed between us even though all the books Oh, no, no, no, I'm not gonna smother my child I loved the only way I could feel less helpless is if I could be there as a human shield on one side while she slept, you know, so anything bad happen. And then once language happened, then it deepened and deepened and deepened. To the point that very early on from the dot for both of them. We would just, I started with rhyming. I wanted to have a lot of rhyming and I did a lot Have improvised theatre. So we're doing that, then we would make up songs all the time. And she got a little coffee, espresso machine toy one from someone, and we might put another coffee in the coffee machine, you know, and all that. And so as they became songs we sang. But even when Caitlin was later born, the same thing happened, we would go around the house, the three of us was making I would do the first songs get to the point where there's going to be a rhyming word. And they had to come up with that word. And they're the things I remember from that sort of level of connection. Still, I suppose. You could be saying there's still levels of superficiality there. I am the cook at home. So I to me, maybe it's selfish, but it's how I feel. I can be useful and needed. And I love it. It is there is some time I'm a slowest cook in the world. And there is every recipe is full of lies. When they say prep time. 20 minutes. Nothing is less than an hour and a half. I cannot rush. But, uh, maybe that's my little bit of downtime, but also the serving up. I remember when COVID first struck, that we do eat together as a family. I remember the girls, I was experimenting and pushing things out. And notice like, Oh, this is great dad. Really? This is a wow, it's like a little mini if anyone knows the castle, the movie The Castle, where the dad says, Jesus love. What's this? It's chicken. Oh, wow. You know? Yeah, it's a bit like that. Yeah, it's so satisfying. Yeah. So I felt part of it. So, you know, I'm there. I've done my I mean, it's, I can't claim to be fully over 50% of the job. But in meshed, I love them. You know, they're just love watching them grow as humans, and to be part of that it's a privilege to be in their little world. And then keep that balance. I can't be sucked in to be their friend, I wouldn't be friendly. But I am their dad. And then there's some beautiful communication that's happened since Sorry, I'll draw this to a close. But I remember back. If there was $1, there's a new drinking song for Alexis. Every time I say I'm sorry, this is going long. And it is this. She wrote on her because her birthday is the day before mine. So they sort of bonded that way. Show me a card. Think must have been a 13. So dead. I'm about to become a teenager. And there's going to be some changes happening in my body. And there are going to be some times when I am going to be hard to be around and hate you. But I want you to know that I love you deeply. Despite all of this. That is probably going to happen. As i Wow. That is a beaut human. Right. There may be some things happen right? Along the way. Yeah. To call a spade a spade like that, but in a gentle way. But just matter of fact, as well. Hey, you know, Saudis. Beautiful kids, you've got this lovely. Oh, good on. Yeah. And this thing like, I don't know. Sorry, I have a big stretch. You think about the stuff that you kids will remember. But I think about that a lot what my kids will remember from growing up. And you know, it's it's that stuff you talk about like this, the songs in the car in the three hour trip, everyone's sharing their songs, you know, these these things that you said a couple of times, you know, superficial but I think as humans like we have, we have to use something to get deeper. So there has to be something up here before we can get down there. So, you know, we don't we can't diminish that. What can be seen as superficial. Like you said before, about, you know, the small talk, it leads to something deeper, there's always that? I don't know, just seems to make sense. Yeah, you're right. And there were lots of fun times where AJ was reading her books and they had tippers and diggers and all the trap books, he loved them. So to get them to sleep. Sometimes when I was home with them, I'd pop them both in the car seats and we do driving around hunting for tippers and diggers and all this, why didn't lots of things I probably borrowed a bit too much oil from the planet in that pursuit, but it really suits them. And it was fun having those hands. I'm hoping that might pop up up in a memory somewhere. I'm the same, Alison, I wonder what will be remembered? Because it'll be the things that we probably don't expect. Yeah, yeah, it'll be, it'll be things that we saw as insignificant or Yes, flippant or whatever. There'll be the big things, because that's the stuff I remember, as a kid, like, Dad had these hid, I think he wanted to turn me into some sort of genius. And it kind of went the other way. He had these flash cards that had, like, big red sticker dots on them. And he would hold them up real quick, and get me to tell me, like estimate how many were on there. Right? Yes, actually, I do credit him for teaching how to estimate because I'm very good at estimating very quickly how many like there's a, I've won a lot of guests. How many things are in the jar? So maybe, oh, wow. But he, and I remember that. And I don't know, to him that he probably don't even remember that. But I really remember that they these big red dots coming at me, and they put it down. Good on him. Oh, my God, and I'm useless at math. I hate maths. Oh my god. Yeah, who knows, I just hope it's on the positive side of the ledger. That's the best you can hope for. There's something that makes them smile when I think of it. Although I did think to myself the other day that they'll have 357 plus episodes of the Adelaide sorry to listen to, if they want to, because they're a little bits of me that get, you know, exposed during those that they could piece together what he was like Oh, I love that. Do your daughters inspire you? In what you do? Do you find yourself sort of getting little sparks that you might not have got before? Because now you're a debt? Oh, wow. I would hope so. I would. I'm just trying. And that's really interesting, because I think like I want them to be proud of what I do. And there is a strong Geyser of intrinsic motivation that shooting out by desperate need to be on a microphone or at the front, which is a weakness and occur. I curse a blessing everything all wrapped into one. Because it's a back wood way of saying inspired. I want them to be like this I want. The people who have a greater chance of thriving in this world are the ones who can be comfortable stepping in front to lead a team. And it's good to be a good team person too. Don't get me wrong. But the world needs leaders and people who can help consolidate thinking and make it clear for others to be mapmakers as Seth Godin would say. And so in some ways by them seeing me do this. Here's an example early on. Andy and Terry, I think had the 13th floor Treehouse book and then the 26th floor treehouse. I think it's Andy and Terry and AJ as much as he loved these books love these books. Anyway, they were coming to Adelaide to launch a new book. And she, so I contacted their organizer and said, I've got a however old she was seven year old here, avid reader, who is part of me for the Adelaide Show podcast, and would like to interview them. And sure enough, I wangled it. And so we went to the Adelaide Oval where the big event was, and we got in first, we got to the secret room, and I held the microphone while she did her interview with them back and forth. And then we got taken in to where the launch was before anyone else right in the front row. And while were there, waiting, she was so excited and thrilled. I said, Darling, this is the fruit of me being comfortable enough to put my hand up and risk embarrassment by wanting to be that person that tells stories publicly or is asked questions and you've shown that to and This little thing we're having here, this little extra experience is the reward for that. You don't just get given this. And so who knows, maybe that might be something she remembers. But it's, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's, it's, I'd love to instill that in them that it should just be another thing you can do, as opposed to the research that says something like nine out of 10 people or even more at a funeral would rather be in the casket that actually speaking. There's no just talk entertainers tell a story think. Yeah, that reminds me, I said to my good that, like, it might surprise you. But I wasn't always this talkative? Oh, no, I used to be really, really nervous about talking to people and even lining up in shops, I used to be really nervous when I get to the front of the line, what I'd say and how I'd say it. And anyway, like, thank goodness got out of that. And I said to my son, we're going to see Constantino, the magician. Guy in May, Gambia in a few months, and he desperately wants to meet him. So I've done my thing and messaged and tried to contact him, whatever. So nothing's come over yet. But you know, that's what I do. I've never, I've got this thing that I'm never afraid to ask. Because if they say no, it's no skin off my nose. And you know, it's not I don't take anything personally. So beautiful. That took a lot of learning as well. But anyway, that's another story. So I said to him, when you're in the crowd, and they say, I need a volunteer, I said, always put your hand up, stand up and put your hand up. I said, because that's the only way you ever get chosen for things. As a kid, I'd think I really want to do that. But I'd sit there and hide and be scared, and no one's going to come up and go, Oh, you little Gilda that looks like you're scared. shitless. Let's get you on the stage. You know, so I've tried to teach my kids that if you want something, there is nothing wrong with saying that you want it and you can get it. You know? That's a very short way of I mean, obviously, there's a lot of hard work within certain things. But if you're in a situation where you want something, you stick your hand up and say I want this. Don't be like me when I was a kid. Yes, it's the it's the thing of ask. I wasn't knock on the door we opened asked and it will be given and somebody will seek and usually I find I don't often quote from scripture, because I've that's not part of my life anymore. But there are some profound things from the old writings that stick through. That's one of them. Unless you've asked, you'll never know. And see. And so that's that's a tough one ticket however, surprisingly tough. It shouldn't be. So I'm hoping Yeah. Yeah, but that thing you said earlier that quote about 95% of us so, uh, worried what everyone's thinking. Yes. You know, I remember when I first realized that, that that thing that you said afterwards, then that, that means none of us are worrying about each other, because we're all wearing about ourselves. Correct. And I had this moment of like, ah, oh, it was like this freeing thing, because I grew up as a performer on the stage being judged in a Stanford's. Right? So you put this kid who's got no confidence in anything and stick him on the stage and have people judge them and write things about them. That's a recipe for disaster, isn't it? So when I got out of that world, and realize that one person's opinion about me does not define my whole identity was life changing? It took a long time. But you know, it's given me all these ways of looking at things now that aren't defined by other people. Oh, I agree. It's when I do theater reviewing, I carry that responsibility, soberly, that people will read this. And there are some critics who make a name for themselves from being a servic and horrible. And that's not me, I will. I've got to honor the people who read my reviews or listen to them that if they buy a ticket based on what I've said that I can look them in the eye and things, but I tend to put it in the context that if you do like absurdist suspense fueled country music, then this is the show that you might like, whatever the context is, and then I share my thoughts within that lens, as opposed to judging it against Oklahoma. And there have been two occasions where I have contacted the organizers and say, and said, I would prefer not to write a review because anything I write I think will be harmful to your very younger, to your, your performers. And I think if we just left it as it was, it might be nicer, and they appreciated that fact. Because, you know, criticism Somebody have to learn to live with but it needs to be. I only feel I can do it because I trolled the boards for many years doing absurdist theater, I understand the the angst, the pain, the the price you pay for going out there. So I measure that. But the same time there are I mean, there's a, I've just turned down some tickets to a show that's coming up, because it's just going to make me vomit. I think it's just a cutesy approach to storytelling that I don't think we should be doing. And I just, I'd rather just not review it. That's very kind of you to think that way. You know, it's not. And I think a lot of the people that do judge people harshly and put out, you know, scathing things, it's, I think it says a lot about themselves personally, and a lot of egos involved in that, because it's more about what they're saying. And their words, rather than, like you said, putting things in context and giving an explanation. And, you know, you have to ensure if there is something that was a bit off, I will offer his little trick, oh, I have no one who hears this is going to be reviewed by me, but I'll say, intriguingly, it seems the directors gone for creating this kind of feeling. So I've, I have, I've turned what is the potential negative in and giving them the benefit of the doubt, so that I'm doing two things at once. They know, quietly, that I might have seen a little bit of a weakness here, but they haven't lost face. And the audience who read this potential audience will go are ik that's probably not the thing I want to see. So they'll get the message, but no one's lost face in it. So that's, and who knows, maybe that is post parenting. Steve, who has those sensibilities? That pre parenting Steve might not have? I don't know. But there is that key because we try not to just say that, Oh, this lovely, we try to be specific in things that we will praise, etc. Rather than just a blanket. thing, because I grew up being told by my mom or your top you should be this, you should be that and it we can it lowers the value, the potency of that phrase. Well, it's just never ending. Better than having someone on the other end of the spectrum though. Saying that I just got thinking, have you ever done any? I'm not telling you what to do. But I can imagine you doing some sort of skit where you're the you're the theater reviewer, and you're reviewing your children. Now to me, Oh, you've gotten out of bed a little bit early today. But that's okay. You know, like, you know what I feel like that's just flushed through my head. See, I love that. Because the other bit from the old scriptures that I quote often is that there is nothing new under the sun. Because there isn't really but there are new ways of slicing and dicing things. And often that comes from taking a duck out of water and putting it somewhere else. And that's great. To write a sort of review. Yeah, of the family day. So how does a theatre critic write in their diary each day? That's interesting. Yeah. I get the fish out of water. Yeah, not duck fish out of water because ducks do go out of water and they are quite comfortable. But yes, fish out of water. less so. That is, that is the thing about journalism that that I was taught from early aid, man bites dog. That's how you know a story is a story. Dog bites man. Who cares? The man but man bites dog. That's where there's a story. That's the unexpected. Yeah. And and I know that sexist language but it's from early 1900s that as I've used it in the original language I'm faced appreciate you putting that caveat of it can you share with us your your website? Where can everyone find you talked about marketing.com Is my marketing business. We are probably around the time this comes out. Launching a podcast called talking about marketing with my new business partner I'm David Olney, who's a, an amazing brain form Elektra, he's blind. He is just an all seeing, wise man. And we bounce off each other nicely. So we're going to share something which I hope is helpful. At the Adelaide show.com to the UNLV podcast app, look for the Adelaide show, you'll find us and talking about marketing soon, I also do some others and have fun. There's one called this medical life, which is a podcast I produced with Dr. Travis Brown, if you want have a chronic condition, and you'd love to dive deep into it, this is a podcast in which we go for one disease at a time. It's for doctors. But if you're the person with something like this, you get to go deep, and you hear how doctors talk to each other about this stuff, which is great. Yeah, that sounds fascinating. It's, it's, it's amazing. I'm just I'm just the the band who sews it together. Dr. Travis Brown is the brain. And our guests are amazing. I'm just there for the on the show, girl. So they're the main things, the characters, if you're on LinkedIn, I'd love you to follow them. Darren Hill. He's got a website, Darren hill.co. He's the social media whisperer. He's just ramping up. And then at at MBA school.com. Today you you'll find the MBA school of MBA credentials. That's where you have this wonderful free mindfulness meditation. 13 minutes of your life, you'll never get back. And he's he's quite fun there. I think they're the main things to share, at this point in time, really just done that your MBA school? Do you find that people think that that's real? If I had someone this week, ask what are the rates? What are the costs for attending your school? And I fessed up to that person or the person for whom I think, I think they're an overseas student. And I did want to lead them astray. If it was a local, I might have had more fun with them. But yes, I do. MBA news did a big story on us. When we had our MBA, lunchtime MBA that was a bit of fun. But Professor long sword chips into the occasional debate every now and then, his one mission in life is to make Philip Kotler who is one of the seminal lecturers and researchers in the realm of marketing that the textbook called Marketing is by Kotler at owl. And Professor long sword has kept nibbling at him, there's not been a bat yet even he's done a series of short videos, you know how you have food and wine pairings. He has book and textbook and wine pairings. So he paid marketing by Philip Kotler to the most atrocious South African wine you could imagine. And he said, The only reason that goes with this is because marketing is so dense and tiresome. It will put you asleep if you weren't drinking this horrible liquid from South Africa. That is a stringent and still nothing crickets. Oh, one days, one day, you gotta keep keep trying. That's his goal in the nicest possible way. Oh, good luck with that. Well, thank you so much for coming on stage. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's been my pleasure, chatting with you and picking your brain and hearing all the awesome things that you've got to share. It's been so great. Thank you. Look, thank you very much. And thank you for welcoming me into this podcast because it is very overwhelming when I look back at all the different amazing women you've had on to go, Oh, my goodness, I hope there's something useful, helpful, fun, at least diverting, hopefully something at least diversional is a new word doesn't even exist. Until now. Thank you first time you've heard it here. I'll take care and thank you. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you As someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.