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Bethany Kingsley - Garner UK ballerina S3 Ep86 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley-Garner, a ballerina from the UK and mother to her 18 month old daughter.. Bethany was born in Devon, England and moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined Scottish Ballet in 2007, was promoted to Soloist in 2013, and to Principal in 2016. She has been there ever since. She was first drawn to dancing through the music, her mother would play Classic FM at home and she recalls as a 3 year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copy her. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the Wyre Drawer company leavers prize, as well as the April Oldrich Award for Most Dynamic Performer and receiving First Commendation and Young British Dancer of the Year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 productions, from Swan Lake to The Nutcracker, and recent performances of The Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US of The Crucible, in the role of Elizabeth Proctor. She's also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Bethany - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Throughout this episode you'll hear music from various popular ballet procductions, used with permission thanks to my APRA AMPOS licence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in today. It's such a pleasure to have you. I've been feeling a bit under the weather so I've been putting off recording this intro to haven't had much of a voice. But today, I'm feeling pretty good. My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley Garner. Bethany is a ballerina from the UK and a mother to an 18 month old daughter. Bethany was born in Devon in England and she moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined the Scottish ballet in 2007 and was promoted to soloist in 2013 and two principal dancer in 2016. She has been there ever since. Bethany was first drawn to dancing through the music. Her mother would play classic FM at home, and she recalls as a three year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copier. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the wire drawer company leaders prize as well as the APR which award for most dynamic performer and receiving first commendation and young British Dancer of the year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 Productions, from Swan Lake to the Nutcracker, and recent performances of the Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US presenting the crucible in the role of Elizabeth proctor. Bethany has also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Throughout this episode, you'll hear music from various popular ballet productions, which I can use thanks to my APRA amcos Mini online licence. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you Bethany. It's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hi, thank you for Gabby God, I'm excited to speak to you because in in whole time I've been doing this a couple of years. I've only had one other. I'm not gonna say ballerina because I don't think that do you like to be called a ballerina? I can be called ballerina you can be okay because I had a principal dancer from the Australian ballet. And she didn't want to be called a ballerina. She just want to be called principal dancer. So I've had two ballet dancers on my podcast now which is really exciting. So we're about to you at the moment to paint a picture for the listeners. I'm currently in Scottish ballet HQ, which is in Glasgow in Scotland. And we are back in our studios. We are mid tour of the strangeling at the moment so we are leaving to Newcastle today. Oh wow. Literally in the thick of it right now. Yeah, we're nearly at the end. We started about two months ago so we are we're close to the end and we had 74 shows of The Snow Queen this year. Holy moly. Is that how many days a week he performing that so we have a performances Wednesday to Saturday and there's three double show days. Where houses Batson that I mean this is the thing I discovered. Data Stephenson who As the other ballerina I've had on the show, she blew my mind with how much work you guys do like not just the performance, but then all of the rehearsing. And then like you rehearsing probably new shows while you're performing. The show the doing it was like, blew my mind. How are we on the show on the road? We don't stop then making it better or rehearsing or keeping the stamina up. So yesterday, I still rehearsed for Newcastle this week, even though I've done how many shows? Yeah, keeping it fresh, keeping it in the body? Tell us how you first got into dancing. How did you get first into the ballet music? Yeah, it was my mom used to play classic FM at home. And I remember even from the age of about three or four. So my first memories of just feeling something in my veins in my DNA and wanting me to move almost out of my control. And that was I guess the start of me developing into the ballerina I am today. So I was had a very supportive family who supported me all the way through that journey. And I went to the Royal Ballet School in London, at 11. And now I can't even imagine being a mother. That kind of pain that my family went through, but they knew that that's what I wanted to do. And I graduated with honours in 2007. And then I came straight to Scottish ballet. But it was a really beautiful journey. I had an I had a lovely time. I had a lot of time at boarding school. I think it's when you're around people that love this art form and around people have the same interest. And that really makes it because before when you're kind of a normal primary school, you're juggling both you're doing academic you may be any two in your year group that like to dance. So all of a sudden you're put into this world of the whole year group doing all together so that was really lovely. And you wouldn't have those outside distractions to you'd be like supremely focused on that you want to attend. I mean, I'm extremely homesick especially for the first time I say three to maybe four years. But something kept me there. Something in my you know, my heart my soul. I remember counting down the days before the weekend. Every night but I once I was into it, I was fine. Yeah, so we're about the suit was you're like Where were your family in relation to where were you in in you being in London. So they are in the south country. So in Devon, so it's around a drive around three hours drive. And very different countryside beaches, very rural. And then kind of you're in the centre of what especially the Upper School of London, you're in Covent gardens, you're already in the hustle and bustle. So two very contrasting worlds. Hey, just Well, you've mentioned Devon is that I went to London many years ago and we caught a train. I'm not very good with this geography. It was a place called pool is that anywhere is that we're even further down so right at the very bottom you've got Cornwall and then Devon so it's really the bottom of Southwest. Yeah, right. Is it got like big cliffs and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I can I can visualise I reckon. I think it might be a popular place for people like making movies and stuff and TV shows because I swear I've seen I've Googled it before and I would have done yeah, did you so you live you've lived up in Scotland since you joined by going on to my my 17th season next year with squid. That's my that's awesome. Wow. And I noticed you haven't really picked up an accent. No, I really haven't. I my husband's Scottish and he's quite roared. No, I really haven't. Maybe because it's still I'm still surrounded by not, you know, in our work environment. We don't have really broad Scottish accents and maybe that's why on the webpage for the Scottish ballet, your, your your page that features you, there's this amazing photo of you, which I if you'll let me I want to share with the listeners in the in a link. You just like it's black and white. And you've like got wings as part of your costume and you're like, you look like this bird of prey, basically. And you've got these massive beautiful eyes like really dark makeup diamonds on Oh, it's just stunning. It's just like, whoa, was that for role was that for like a photoshoot? That that was for the role of the self and Matthew Barnes Highland fling. Wow, I'm gonna have to read to you. I actually made it. You know, I was jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, right? You try and just kind of using my arms like wings, and they and they got the perfect. Oh, it's just unreal. I was just, and it like, it like slaps you in the face. When you come on to your why'd you like, Wow, that's incredible. So, as part of your dancing, I guess in addition to the music and the costumes, there's quite a lot of acting. And like detail encompassing the character? Do you really enjoy that side of it as well, I love that. There's not, I don't believe there are many jobs out there where you can actually transform into someone else for you know, a few hours and become that kind of emotional connection. And emotive and then come out of it and go in character in there. And I guess be a mom. That's what makes you into your kind of your depth character as well. You keep digging deeper into roles, especially now that I'm on my, you know, going into my 17 season. There's roles that I've done before. So that's nice to keep coming back as now I feel completely different to how I felt, you know, a few years ago. Yeah, absolutely. Before we start talking about you, your transition to motherhood, I really want to ask, do you have like some particularly favourite roles that you've played over the years. So the most challenging is probably Swan Lake. And I think that dancers love a challenge and the physical challenge. But also, it's one that you just feel like you have left everything on the stage. So you could almost walk off and you could see your blood, sweat and tears line there. So you really give everything one that's very close is the Snow Queen what we're doing at the moment, I was part of the creation process three years ago. And it just has a real special place in my heart and I feel otherworldly when I perform it really, really connected to the work. Yeah, that's cool. Do you find with Swan Lake, do you feel any sort of pressure because people know it so well? Like your audience has probably seen it or heard of it before? Do you feel that pressure to? I don't know, live up to maybe people's expectations? Probably not cracker. I actually feel that everyone knows music. Yep. But no, actually, I didn't feel that was Swan Lake. I felt very much I am. This is this one I'm going to be? Yeah, I felt empowered with that. Yeah, you bring your own and your own take on I guess. I have a daughter Elizabeth, who is 18. She's 18 months where? So how did it go then? And I'm just going back to I guess the previous conversation I've had had with Jana that you can feel so much pressure as a dancer that your career is going amazing. And it's usually at that same time is when you're in your childbearing years. So it's often a real pool of what do you choose to do? I guess Did you feel anything like that when you're thinking about having your daughter? No. Maybe I'm on the I'm on the other end. I feel that I'm the it for now. So maybe I left it to a point where I felt as if I had reached a certain level in my career. There's no you never go into thinking about having a child. Knowing that you'll definitely come back? I think because you don't know. So I think that probably had more of an impact on me, then, kind of where I was. I mean, it was very quick for me to feel that I knew I wanted to come back. But I always had that had, at the back of my heart, in my mind, be prepared to have something else in your, you know, ready. If this wasn't the life you wanted with your family. Did that did that sort of bring you a lot of sadness, thinking that you might not go back to dancing was that like a really big decision to sort of, to think that that might happen? I feel that I will never not want to do it. Because it's part of who I am. It's, it's in my, you know, I've mentioned, it's in my DNA. That's how that's how I feel. But I know that I would like to do something else. And I look back, and I feel extremely proud of this length of career and what I've given it so far, there will always be sadness, because it's something that you've dedicated your life to. But now as a mother of it's, I feel it lated now and so much love for another another life also, huh? Yeah. Did you have it in your head? Right from the start that you try and come back? I guess it did things go well, then that you're able to come back when you want to I had about, I talked to my director and I had about five different scenarios. ABCD and you know, all because, you know, respectfully, they're also running a business. So for a principal dancer to dip out for a long period of time, I'd always want to let them know. Roughly when they're thinking about the planning and, and everything we actually did go with Plan A, which was very surprised. But I had, I think the smooth the birth was ever so smooth. Yeah, the recovery was very smooth. So that all went into factors. But you you know, you have no idea. You need that many different scenarios, because each step of the way something can happen. emotional implications of when you're suddenly there with your child have the thought about going back to work, huh? Yeah, yeah. All those all those things, but I, I never really stopped moving. Even when, when I was she was home and maybe two weeks, I had her in the sling rocking, I used to sign on to, you know, some ballet classes from home and just enjoy that movement. And that bonding time with her. I was sharing that world that life. She was now in it with me. And that was lovely. Now that's That is awesome. And I think like, a lot of the moms I have on the show. They like you that you have something that you love so much. Like you just think you've got to keep doing it. You know, it's just part of you and you couldn't you couldn't really imagine not doing it and you sort of find ways to keep doing it and make adjustments you know, now that you're a mother she obviously knows that. I was a dancer. Yeah, she died when she was a few weeks old in my tummy when I was doing class, but yeah, she does. Yeah, she's always by my side. So we are a touring company. So she tours with me. And it's actually quite nice because we kind of get a little bit more time on tour on my hours or less with performing so I'm kind of not in the you know, in the studio all day and she comes to the theatre she may be watching the end of class laughs I take her on stage to watch a show. And that's just things like that, you know, I was sat with her on the set of snowpine. It's got a beautiful throne. And at that moment, when you're in the performance, you're sat there looking into a piece of ice. Just about to do the last part of the really tough on your point, you're really tired. And I had her with me sat there, and we just had a picture. And I was showing her the throne. She was playing with the fare on it. And now I'm on stage and I'm sat there and that's my memory. I have almost I can smell her. And it gives me so much strength. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I got goosebumps when you talk about that. Like, it's it's beautiful. Like, she's literally part of that world. Like, yes, she's there. Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Do you feel like it's important to you that she sees what you're doing? Like, I mean, I guess at her age, she hasn't got this concept of perhaps identity, the way we construct in our minds, but she's not, you're not just her mom, you have a life where you do things just on your own. I'm always knew. And you know, very much the same path as Stewart, my husband as well, that we wanted her to come in to our life. But in a way our life is how it is. Because it's the happy it's working. It's full of love. And I was quite strong on having that connection of who I am in the ballet world in the studio, that she was also in it. I think it's not a great territory when you try and keep them to separately. Because it, I find that I have no kind of stresses or worries, because if I need to have her here, then I'll bring her if I need to step away, then I will go and I think it's taking that control and that's that's my family life and that will come first. So you're talking about you're a touring company. So how far away do you go? Like what sort of an average tour I suppose an average tour is not too far. It's about the weekend at the Scottish main cities like Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, and then we come further down south to Newcastle. But we are going to America next year where she will be coming. So that'll be fun for that flight. Yeah, so we do we tour about three times a year. So that's like kind of our main bulk everything. Yeah. And then the rest of the time you rehearsing. Always rehearsing and we're seeing ballet class. Oh, yeah. That's unreal, isn't it? Do you? Do you sometimes think about your life and think this is amazing that I get to do what I love so much. Like do you have those moments where you just, I think like when I put my bike tights on in the morning, I think this is bizarre. Like it's sometimes you know, when I look around the room at people early in the morning doing doing a play is weird but wonderful world that it's just acceptable to be wearing lycra all day. And feel comfortable in it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, there's no judgement. like to talk to all my moms on the show about this concept of mom guilt, and I put that in air quotes, because I know some people don't feel it and that's awesome. And then others have issues and struggles with it, but I wanted to know what your thoughts were about it. My first emotionals reaction to feeling that I wouldn't be with her all the time was when. I mean, we actually had to put her in her own room. We knew It was time. And it was I was by her crib, she'll bedside crib and just crying for so long. The thought of her being on her own three steps away from me was, you know, heartbreaking. And I guess that's the kind of the process isn't it of finding the independence between mother and child. But that was a huge I really was. I guess it took me a little bit of surprise how physical I reacted to that feeling of just of just pushing her having her own space to sleep. Which she absolutely loved. So it was totally on me. Nothing on her. Yeah, she was fine. Then, when I first went to the theatre I had been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm gonna be back the smell of the side stage, the laying out my changing room. And I was in the car. I left it so my husband say that she would have been asleep. It was late in the evening, we had dinner and I gave my first dress rehearsal. And out just out of nowhere in the car. The tears tears came. And it was I stopped for a minute and thought is this is this? What you want to do? Is this right for her? Is this right for the family everything. And it was just it was all our I was the only one feeling there. You know, she was touched up at home. And I knew that then when I went back the next day. Well, she would when she broke up. I would have felt so good. That I was I managed to do both in a in a way that was still no one lost out except for maybe my emotions, but I would take that for anything. Yeah, I think that's how I kind of just constantly going back thinking okay, is this life is this spy world? Is this job working for the family? Is it making us happy and, and loving? And are she getting? We're getting the most time together? And it always comes back to Yes. So the feelings I'm feeling it and you just take the brunt don't you? Just go I take it. Yeah, yeah, that's that. That's that's really good. Because I feel like there's no escaping. There's no escaping that emotional pool. There's no escaping that. And then I think it's like gorgeous. Yes. I mean, it's what makes us a mother, isn't it? You know? But then it's that next step of like, you could have turned around and gone back home that night, you know, in the car. Oh, yeah. But it's like that what we do next? That's that's our beat. Then we go ride a lot. And like you said, we were that that emotional pain. We go oh, that, you know, you're but then we go on? And we do and like you said you felt you knew you were gonna feel amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny old thing that that mom guilt, isn't it? Someone said, there's a lady I had on the show. I can't remember who it was now. So apologies. But she she had this idea that mom guilt was this. It was a innate ingrained thing from biological evolution that basically made us not forget the child, you know, like, it was just, you know what I mean? Like, it was just something that had to be in us to make us you know, not leave it out, where it could be endangered, you know, in, I don't know, in the caveman days or something, you know, like something like that? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. The another thing I like to really chatter about is the changes in our own identity when when we become a mom. How did you cope with that? Now, I'm a very different person, but I didn't see that I didn't feel the change, it just happened. And the differences is I definitely know who I am. I think when you go through something that's like a child. And it's you're just giving everything and you're not thinking it's not you in that moment. It's not you in that time, it's you're giving you reach a point in your life. But you know, the people which have been able to have this amazing thing happened to them. Very rarely are you at that point where you would do anything? You're doing everything to have a this dispersed. And just, I think more I use the word empowered, but not in a way of Yeah, gritty. Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's in a way of mothering, of embodied and gathering, I feel the strength from everything that I'm, I'm doing, I can arrive at work, and I've been up to six hours, just silly things, but it makes you feel like, okay, I'm a, I'm okay, today, I'm what you knows is everything settled and happy. And so that's how I feel, and nothing to lose, I now have nothing to lose. For myself for her and, yeah, no, I love that. That's really that's really cool way of putting it. So before we talked about, that, you've done a couple some roles that you've done more than once. And I wanted to take you back to that about him. You said how when you're at different stages in your life? Have you had any sort of times where you've been very conscious of the fact that now that you are a mother that you approach the rolls differently? Or is it just something that happens with time? So I didn't prep you for this one. Um, my first season back, I did the ballet called My scandal at Milan. And I play two roles. And one of the roles was a bride that actually was a you know, it was a bedroom scene, but it was extremely rough and violent. And this is my first season that year after. So I felt a lot more in tune of where I was being touched, right. And whereas pre birth, I guess, physically, I would have just ran into that not even second, and then it was cool. Oh, yeah, it was a little bit more tentative. I wasn't in my own skin yet. Now I am. But this unit, you're talking maybe seven months after? So you're really like, is my leg coming with me? Or is it still on the other side of the room? On the floor today, or are they going to be touching like it was really sort of, but I had heart and soul in it. But yeah. So physically, that's, I'm not as carefree as I was with my body. Letting maybe awesome fight or flight mode. I'm a bit nervous being lifted. Never used to. Yeah. But now I have something to seriously not get injured for. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Is it bigger? There's a bigger picture. Somebody gets scared of flying or you know, height. And it's that similar thing of, I'm a bit more careful with myself. That's a really that's a really cool observation, isn't it? Yeah. Because I guess if you weren't in the inner city ration where you were really shocked around and you might not ever notice the basic things like when you're crossing the road by yourself or when you're crossing the road with your child. You're very different. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, can I make the lights off? Nope. We're gonna wait for the Green Man. Yeah, I think it's that similar thing. But she was in me, even though she wasn't in the studio at the time, just as I was getting back. So that's the main shift I found out, huh? Yeah, I thought that's really cool. There's a lot of us that may or may not be able to relate to that. Because it's the level of physicality that some of us may or may not have. But that's a really cool observation. I really liked that. I also wanted to ask, how did you find, you know, when you're pregnant, and you get that, like, I can't think what the thing is. It's like elastin or something happens in your hormones release these. What's it called? relaxing? Relaxing? Yeah. Did that change your your body heat, and it took so long to go? Yeah, right. So where I think you just feel more gooey. But you know, you're carrying you want, you don't want the body to be whole, stiff, you want it to be looser, I felt a lot at the back of my knees. So when we straighten things, normally, they would kind of lock and I had so much still in it still, when I was back that seven months that my legs were a bit like chicken legs, they were still sort of rebounding back. Yeah. And structurally, physically, you know, my physical shape has changed, probably not to, you know, an audience member. But to my own, maybe the people closest around me. It's that hip structure. It's the the widening the ribcage, you know, when you go through something like breastfeeding. It's the more broad you get in there. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. And that's yeah, and being doing something that you you're so aware of your body, it'd be interesting to to see those little nuance changes. And yeah, I did a lot of them. I worked with my physio through the whole time. But just that was really interesting. Just working on things like my turnout. So you know, in dance, classical ballet, the main thing is we have to rotate from the tops of our legs. Well, if my pelvis changes just a tiny bit, how would that how would that tweak that? Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting, isn't it? I find it really fun. I guess Yeah. Somebody else I've started talking to moms about lately, especially moms who you know, have who work it use their art as you know, a career when you were growing up, what sort of role modelling did you have from from your own upbringing about what a mother could look like? What you sort of options were as a as a mother I guess. So my mum was so passionate, so passionate to let us fulfil our dreams and confidence building and I think I can see myself now with Elizabeth just imparting little things. I know you can do you know what walking, you can do it? No, you can. So I had that kind of structure and I had an older sister who was very fat, very musical, but very outgoing and confident. So I think those those things in your life they rub off on you. They are an upper New and then I guess in the kind of artistic world. There were just so many so many dancers from the Royal Ballet that used to watch and see teachers as he used to impart a few words of wisdom, I do a little bit of teaching now. And it can make or break students. And that's, you know, a such a powerful role of being a teacher. Especially when you're maybe more of a vulnerable age, as a giant where you hold on to every word, I think we can probably all remember, a praise. And we can all remember a negative thing that has, you know, it's so important. Definitely, you think about that when you're raising a child of the implications of words. And think of what they will pick up on. So important. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Because I think a lot of time we sort of, we might use a term as a throwaway term or say something we don't necessarily mean, but that's what your child he is. And then they hold on to that. Yeah, so yeah, it's when when you just said about you'll always remember praise and, you know, a negative comment straightaway, I just went, went back to little Alison doing singing lessons like it just straightaway, back to that space. Like it's yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It is, isn't it? Yeah. stuff. I haven't thought about it for years now. But okay. Thanks. I'll leave that bit. So, tell us where you're going. We will be going on to our spring season, which is the Tennessee Williams story of A Streetcar Named Desire. Oh, awesome. Oh, love is a ballet that we have done before we actually created it a Scottish ballet a few years ago. So I'm revisiting it, which is going to be so lovely. And I love the story ballet. And then we will be touring that in the spring, around to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow, and the spring seasons, always the nicest because of the blossoms and blooms and the weather. Just start starting in Scotland. It's not always great, but it just starts to free up the frost. Yeah, and you get blue skies. And then we will be preparing for our American tour in May, which is to Washington, Charleston and Nashville, like so. And will that be the same show that you were to the crucible? So another story? Yeah, right. It's funny. We were just talking about that today. Sorry, on a completely different I'm just I was just talking about that today with my son. Yeah. Because it's something which Charles Yeah. Elizabeth proctor? Oh, pregnant. It's just I mean, you know, I couldn't play a more authentic role. Really? It's just lovely. Oh, how exciting. Have you done that one before? Is that a new one for you? I actually created an Elizabeth proctor around about four years ago. And I have performed it now being a man we performed it back in London. Yes, and this has been my second time now. Oh, lovely. Oh, that's exciting. So I'll put some links in the show notes where people can check out where you guys are and if you're in the neck of the woods, I say hello. All moms just sometimes just pat themselves on the back and be like You're awesome. I think to your friends, you maybe don't have children. I think it's it's a really lovely trait that they you know, they try and you keep those conversations and you try and understand and still meant bringing your children into because that's also another huge dynamic shift. I'm actually the only dancer in the company currently with a child. Yeah, right. So just just things like that, but I don't feel it's a, because she's constantly in the conversation or they ask and I think keeping things like that open is important. Yeah, she's a part of it. It's not. It's not like this this taboo subject that we don't talk about with Bethany. You know, it's, she's, she's part of it all. Yeah. All thank you so much for coming on. Like, it's just been so lovely chatting to you, and all the rest with your dancing and on your tour and everything and oh, yeah, I'll keep I'll keep my eye out for you. If you ever come to rescind your Alia, I know. Please. I mean, I will keep you know on social media with you. And if it's anything else, from a UK tie in, I'm here and I'm for you. And yeah. Oh, thank you. Appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Louise Agnew Australian photographer S2 Ep41 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Louise Agnew is a photographer based in Millicent, SA mother of 3 children. Louise came to photography professionally 10 years ago after a career in psychology and social work, after the urge for a creative outlet took over. Louise loves capturing the relationship between mothers and their children, and is a champion of encouraging mums to get out from behind the cameras and into the photos! Her candid style and genuine relationships forged with her clients has made Louise a local favourite, cemented by the many community collaborations she takes on. Today we chat about how Louise was able to make a big shift in her mindset and identity around mothering, body image and the media and the high value she places on having a therapist you can talk to. You'll also hear some chatter with her 8 month old son George :) **This discussion contains mentions of mental health issues** Connect with Louise - website / instagram Connect with the Podcast - website / instagram We also mention : Mamma Matters Dr Sophie Brock Music used in this episode is done so with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who were artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast he's done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on the podcast is Louise Agnew. The Waze is a photographer based in Millicent South Australia and a mum of three children. Louise came to photography professionally 10 years ago, after a career in psychology and social work, after the urge for a creative outlet just took over. Louise loves capturing the relationship between mothers and their children, and is a champion of encouraging moms to get out from behind the cameras and into the photos. Her candid style and genuine relationships forged with her clients has made Louise a local favorite, cemented by the many community collaborations she takes on. Today we chat about how Louise was able to make a big shift in her mindset, and her identity around mothering body image and the media and the high value she places on having a therapist she can chat to. You'll also hear some chatter with her seven month old son George. This discussion contains mentions of mental health issues. Thanks so much for coming on today. Louise. It's such a pleasure to have you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so you're well I shouldn't say you from Gambia. You're in Millicent, aren't you? Yes, I did. I grew up in that Gambia moved away, went to uni. And then didn't think I'd ever moved back but met a local tantan oh boy in Adelaide, and we moved back lived in them out for I don't even know how long, eight years, 10 years or something. And then we only just moved to Millicent about six months ago, maybe? Yeah. Six to 12 months ago. I've lost my marbles. Were very good. So you're a photographer? Can you tell us a little bit a bit about sort of how you got started and the sort of style of photography that you like to do? Yep. So I've been shooting for probably over 10 years now, professionally, but it probably started well. I mean, I've always sort of was the person with a camera in their hand. My whole life pretty much. I've always enjoyed it. But basically, yeah, so I went to uni, studied psychology, and then went on and did my masters in social work. So I was working in that field, and absolutely love the work I did, but then also needed that creative outlet as well, which is where I was doing my photography. And eventually, it sort of took over or didn't take over. But I had to share my time across two jobs, basically. And one of them had to give so yeah, I went with the photography. Yeah. So do you do all styles of photography like weddings and portraits and so I used to do weddings. And then if we're talking about being a mother, once I had children, it became quite difficult for me. I would have people wanting to book two years in advance, and I did you know, in that baby making phase of my life and I thought I want to cancel on people. And then I did take on a last minute request for a wedding. After I had my firstborn Rosie and I think I don't know how old she was somewhere between six and 12 months. But I was still breastfeeding and said I can do it but you'll have to be okay with because she wouldn't take a bottle. Mom had to drive her out to this wedding and it was 40 something degrees. She was sitting in the car waiting for a fee. The wedding was running late. And I went out and feta and I I thought Nope, this is like I loved the work. But it just wasn't. It's not the time of my life at the moment. So I'm still not doing weddings. So my main focus is families and businesses. And I really love to capture motherhood, actually, which. Yeah, I think that passion sort of began has begun since becoming a mum myself. Yeah. Do you think a bit of that I noticed, obviously, follow you on Instagram? There's this sort of, you seem to have a sort of push for the mums to make sure they're in the photos to that it's sort of Yes. Seem to be always the ones taking the photos, but they're not. Absolutely. And I think we always have these excuses for all the reasons that we shouldn't be in the photographs, you know, like, I need to lose more weight, or we will, that's the biggest one. But you know, there's always something behind the reason that you Oh, wait till this child is older, or we might have another child, so we should wait until that child's born. You know, it's it's that classic, self sacrificial thing that mothers do. Yeah. Thinking that they don't deserve to be in photographs. But I know when I look back at photographs of myself, you know, four years ago with Rosie and I was a very different look at that stage in my life. You know, I don't hate those photographs. I'm so glad to see. I mean, my favorite thing to capture is that connection that mums have with their children. And that's what I think I look back on and reflect on when I looked at the photos of myself. Not judging. Not judging myself. Yeah. Yeah. easy thing to do at the time, I think but it's more about having that history record of how things were when the kids were tiny or, or bigger. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And maybe it's so hard to to get past that initial. Oh, geez, look at me in that photo. Oh, you know, stuff. It's like, look, look past that and see, see it for what it is, it's a mother with their child and they have a great relationship different. It's a great memory to have. Yeah, it is and I think to these days, because nine times out of 10 The reason that we're in a photograph is because we've taken a selfie with our children not an actual stand over there and capture and so the way that we perceive ourselves with filters and then having such control over how you can make yourself look on an iPhone with your reverse camera on shooting a selfie. It can be confronting sometimes to see so if for how the whole world sees you know, yeah, when you lose that control, don't have the filter you know, overhead angles. Yeah, that's it looks looks good for me. Yeah, yeah. That's my classic one. Whenever people take photos make sure you're ever beaten highest. The way you like to show is quite candid. Then you like to capture people just in the moment. Do you do a lot of outdoor or studio? What's your sort of main preference? Mostly outdoor. I really love shooting in the golden hour. Either early in the morning or late at night late at night tends to be the guy and often people freak out and think Oh, my kids are gonna you know, they're not really good. But I think I love that wildness of children. I don't want them to sit there like little statues being you know. Yeah, I don't that studio style is probably not my thing so much. I mean, some there's a time and place for it. You know when I'm taking headshots or newborns are a bit different because you don't want the kids being wild around a newborn too much. So, but at the moment since moving to Milton, I don't actually have a studio anymore. So I'm definitely yeah, definitely not a studio at the moment. Yeah, I don't really have this new obsession with film and the nostalgia that I don't know. I recently borrowed a camera from another photographer and shot some film on there. And I don't know I just Yeah, I love that. That's probably my current feel. I think in my images, that nostalgic feel. Yeah, right. And does that then mean that you basically what you shoot is what you get like it's not. Can you study match? Yeah, I just sent my first roll off the other day. So it could be a disaster because you initial feedback. I've no idea reminds me of my wedding I had mine was shot on film. And it was like, it just feels like the olden days when, like, yeah. I was taking a photo of Rosie and she was like, Can I see it? And I was like, No, you can't, like not till we finish this role, send it off. Like there's a real, I think current generation don't know how to wait. And I'm guilty of that too. Not just not just kids. We want everything now. It's like, No, you have to wait for something magic in that, I think. Yeah, it's like, it's like when you go out as a teenager, and I'm not sure there's might be a bit of age difference between you and I but you take your little pin taxi out to shadows and then have to wait to see. Like, yeah, no, I will cameras out. Yeah. And then you think oh, what is going to come back on this field or this farm system and judge me? You've briefly mentioned your children a little bit. Can you tell us more about your children? How many others that you have for Rosie? Yes. So yeah, so Rosie is nearly five. She's just started Primary School. Patrick, or as we call him, Patti. He doesn't even really know that. His name's Patrick. He is two and a half. And George is seven months. Yeah. nearly eight months. Yep. So he's the new the new section. He's the newest and the final addition to kids, his two kids, but three kids is 20 or something. And it's very true. The scales for us. Oh, goodness. So you use your children a lot as your inspiration I guess in your work? Yeah, I do. Yeah. If I want to try something new, or you know, I'll often take one of the kids out and, you know, play around with white or? Yeah, a new style of editing or whatever it might be. Yeah. And they're bright. I was gonna say Do they enjoy that? Like with Rosie asking if she gets tired, obviously used to. Yeah, the feedback. And I do respect them. Like if they don't want to, then I won't. Yeah, and I always ask, but because my style was very candid, too. Sometimes they might just be out running under the sprinkler or you know, just not doing anything. And yeah, they love seeing them. Love seeing the photos that I've taken afterwards. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. So with with the three Now you mentioned not being able to your weddings, how does it sort of work? I mean, I guess you're still on maternity leave with George. But how's it worked with the other children going back to work, but trying to fit that in some? It's interesting. So I have gone back to work now officially. GEORGE We start childcare in about two months, which breaks my heart the other two didn't start to though 14 months. But I burnt myself to a crisp both times thinking that I could work around their naps and you know, which is what I'm doing at the moment basically, but I'm only taking out a very light workload. But yeah, Paddy goes to childcare and roses at school. So that's how I make it work. I shoot like I've mentioned before, during the golden hour so often that's when Tom time so he'll have the kids then so nine times out of 10 I try and shoot when Tom's home and edit when they're napping or in care. Yeah, yep. So you mentioned just then about it breaks your heart do you? Do you feel that sort of the psyche guild but that pool of Oh no, my child's going to talk here. So I can do what is that? Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I know you've you talk a bit about guilt in lots of your episodes. I do feel guilty. It's not a guilt. I feel guilty because I know I don't know. I don't know if To give that a feel for sending him to childcare, because I don't have a choice. So I know that it's something that I have to do. And I want to do like, I think sometimes saying that we feel guilty is our way of making ourselves feel like we're a better mother because oh, we can't possibly do something for ourselves and then have this like, you know, does that make us a bad mum for wanting to go back to work or for wanting time for ourselves? Well, no, it doesn't. That's okay. We're people in our in our own right. We should have time separate from our children. Yeah, so it's more that I feel guilty. Because the other two got more time before they went to childcare, I think. But I know, again, putting myself first that I will fall apart if I try and do it all again, this time. So yeah, so lots of work on since the other two on what it means to be a good mum. And I don't know if you've read much into the good enough mother. There's a sociologist that I follow on Instagram, Dr. Sophie Brock, do you follow her? No, haven't seen her. Yet, br o CK. Rodeo making? Yeah. And she, her whole thesis is based on motherhood and what it means to be the ideal mother. Yeah. And basically, she breaks down. But that's really a myth that we are all good mothers and having time to ourselves. And you know, we all we're not the perfect mother. That's what she calls it. That it's that that perfect mother thing is this thing that we are constantly striving to be but it just doesn't work like that. No one's perfect. And yeah. You have to listen to her because I'm not very good at explaining it. Oh, no, that's fine. Oh, definitely does talk about that guilt, Mother guilt, and that it's a cycle. In she says that we need to shift our guilt to ambivalence, basically. And saying, you know, it's okay, that I that I want to go and do something for myself or be, you know, we need to have that time away creatively and, you know, whatever it might be that you want to do to perform better as parents. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That is honestly that's, that's awesome. I'm definitely gonna get on to that lady. Now. She has a podcast too, actually. Yeah cool. Because you've got your background in your psychology and social work as that. I don't want to say it's been easy because Nothing's ever easy. But is that been? You've been able to sort of understand it in a way that most other people probably couldn't? Because you do have that education and training? I guess, the motherhood guilt thing. Yeah. You're able to sort of quantify it a bit differently. I think so I am still obsessed with learning. Anything psychology based. And neuro sciences like was one of my favorite things to work with. When I was working as a therapist. I think sometimes it can be hinderance as well, because I do read too much sometimes. And yeah, but then when, when I'm in one of those wraps, then I'll also be able to come back to Okay. Yeah. This is Paul to constantly be this perfect mother, I think and sometimes we know too much. And then we think oh, I've yelled at the kids too much today or you know, I'm not doing things how I should be doing them. That should yeah, we constantly throw in there. I should be doing this. I shouldn't be doing that. I shouldn't be doing this. Yeah, so I think there's positives because I feel well educated but also sometimes it's there is a thing about knowing too much. Yeah, that sort of ties into the concept of identity about how you sort of see yourself as a person, I suppose. And you said before that, you know, we're people in our own right. Even though we're a mother, we're still our own person. Is that something really important to you? It is, but it's taken me a long time to get to that point. After I had Rosie, I was very self sacrificial, and literally put everything and everyone before myself. And was doing that, again, after I had Patty as well. And probably I can, when he was about six months old, I just started to, I saw someone that's close to me, taking time for herself. And I remember initially thinking, how can she do that? Like, how can she go to the gym for like, an hour, every, however many days, whatever it was a week, I remember really thinking that that I couldn't understand. I just, I didn't judge it. But I could not understand how you could do that. And then I started doing it myself. And I was like, Oh, my God, I can't believe I wasn't doing this. I am a better mother for it. I'm, it just changed me as a person that changed me as a mother. And, of course, you can spend an hour a day, if that's what you choose to go and move your body and, you know, help yourself like, Yeah, it's funny how you can stand on the other side of the room and think something's impossible until you start doing it yourself. And then think, Oh, this is actually how you should be living. Yeah, yeah, I know, I'll notice if I haven't, because I like to try and go for a walk every day. And maybe this is perceived as a little bit self sacrificial, but I try and go before everyone wakes up. But um, but still, I know that there's a chance that they might not and it's something that I do for myself. And it just makes me such. Yeah. In such a good mindset. And, yeah. It has taken me a while to get there. Yeah. Oh, good on you. Good on you for feeling that way. It's awesome. Yeah. But of course, there's still guilt for everything else. It's like a never ending thing, isn't it for? Yeah. But that's so true. Like we all whether you're a mother or father, or just in a relationship with our children, everybody needs to have something just for them. That separate, separate every thing else and everyone else, I think it's Sorry. It's so hard to do like you, you're hitting the nail on the head. They're like, it's, you're just, you can see other people do it. But you can't quite make sense of it, how it's going to maybe work for you or how you can let yourself do it, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. No, yeah, he's so important. It's definitely a common theme. Like, we want to be able to do it, because we know it's important. But then it's like, or, you know, that all those little things target you to challenge you, I guess. And I find, it's really great. I think as a mom, it's really great for the dad to have that time. Because I know that I mean, maybe not all moms do it. But we're very good at saying I'll, I'll do that that's okay. Or I will just, you know, and how do we let dads have a chance to, to parent if we're stepping in over the top all the time. So it does give them that space? I think which is nice. Yeah. One on One and yeah, absolutely. It's like yeah, like that relationship for them is really important. You know for but yeah, it's for the child and the TED so yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom, my mom, I. So you mentioned before you've got your husband as your support. Did you have any any other sort of role models? Maybe within your circle? photography industry of how to juggle it how to manage having the children and doing your work, or was it just something get through on your own. I have had actually been meeting up with a psychologist since having George, I've had a couple of sessions. And she's helped me so much with this, because that was the reason for my referral. I was feeling overwhelmed. And I basically said, I have to it's teach me over having three. My ability to juggle everything like I was like, I don't know how to have to do the shopping, the washing the groceries, you know? Yeah. And fit in work and fit in me and fit in the time with the kids and you know, and not park them in front of the TV. Yeah, very overwhelming. Yeah, so she, she's been really, really great. And just having someone there to say it's okay for you to do something for you. Sometimes you just need to hear it from someone outside your circle, I think. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. But yeah, one of my best mates is also a social worker. And she's a very strong advocate for for mums. And yeah, she's great to talk to about all of this stuff. I probably lean on her too much sometimes. On Instagram, Mama matters is her. Handle. Yes. You follow him? Yes, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she's up in the Gold Coast. Yeah, so she gets the occasional phone call or Mike. Oh, what have I done? I'm terrible mother. Oh. Yeah, she talks me down. She's like, too hard on yourself. Come on. We need we do need that I don't we'd like someone just to sort of, to give us that confidence that it is okay. What we're feeling is normal, how we behave, it's normal. There's nothing wrong with what we're doing. You know, you just need that little bit of reassurance. And you really do. Yeah. puts this thing up about once a week that says, like, you know, asks people to reply on her stories, and says, I'm still a good mom. And, and then you have to fill out the box. So it might be like, still a good mom. And my kids ate McDonald's for tea every night this weekend. Or, you know, and it shifts that, that feeling of guilt to ambivalence, and yeah, it's really wonderful. Yeah, to see it there, too. Like that they will be everyone's in the same boat. It just really normalizes. Yeah, that there is no golden mother, Mary, you know, whatever. Yeah, but you know, yeah, not you. It's like, there's no, there's no, there's no one that's doing it. Absolutely. right all the time. And I made a mistake. And it's balancing everything in their life. Amazingly. I remember when someone in my home was the lady that ran our mother's group, when I had my first child, she says, You're not a real mom until your babies rolled off the bed. Excellent. Um, definitely a real it's just no one's able to come in, like, Oh, I did this. And I've done that. And she's like, that's fine. That's what happens you shoulda never gonna remember. And they're never going to be harmed by that. But yeah, we've got we're so worried about how to do things. And, and, and even when I had my first there wasn't a massive social media like Facebook was around, but it only sort of just started. So it wasn't being used constantly. And there certainly wasn't Instagram. And so I didn't have that sort of sense of judgment. But then when I had my second, it was like, Oh, my God, like, just coming at you from every angle. And you're just yeah, really hard to block that out. And I did unfollowing of countless weren't really helping and a lot of falling ones. And yeah, it's interesting. I think the thing about social media is there has been that bounce back hasn't they're like, when it first sort of started getting bigger. You know, it would be this is the perfect body or this is the perfect x y Zed. And now there's, you know, lots of people saying well actually, you know, yeah, like this true and be beautiful, or you can No, no, no, the Yeah, you can pair it like this and or this is normal or this is okay. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You've just mentioned something that just reminded me and I haven't asked you if it's okay to talk about this or not. So it's up to you if you want to, but you're involved in. I want to support a campaign or project. Oh, yeah, I'd be out I'm sort of, how would you word it? What's what's the best way to describe it? If you want to? Really? Yeah, yeah. body positivity? Yeah. Yeah. Share with us how you got involved and what you did for that? Um, so Oh, actually, she wasn't I made a friend through doing. So, re Weatherall who also has a pod, well, she did have a podcast, it's not running anymore, she has another baby, as well. So she contacted me and said, I want to do something about you know, making women, you know, normalizing bodies. And, yeah, we sort of started talking and came up with this idea that I would, you know, photograph all types of women, whoever wanted to be involved, basically, and just sort of wanting to share that every single body is beautiful. And there's no ideal that we should be looking, you know, to, I mean, I do think that we should all try and be healthy, and we weren't sort of trying to promote. Yeah, it was more about look after yourself, and be happy with what you've got, you've got basically, I don't know how to, like that sort of self acceptance that you don't have to wait to love yourself to, like the perfect size, or what you think the perfect size is, you know, and that you can still, you know, be working on improving your body and love it at the same time. You don't have to wait, you know, to reach. Yeah, that that was really amazing. There was so many local women involved. And they received an incredible response, didn't it? It was really deeply amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And the girls who were in it, actually, I shouldn't say girls, one of the people who was in it doesn't identify as female. But all of the people that were involved in the shoot were just felt so liberated afterwards, and said that they just felt comfortable because only wearing their knickers. They just felt so comfortable. And if they just felt like that really celebrated their bodies, no one was standing there judging other people. It was just such an amazing energy. Yeah. And I think then outsiders were saying, you know, it was so amazing to see these people that they knew. Yeah, you don't see what's under people's clothes. Yeah. And to say there's a woman I follow, called birds, the birds of papaya or something. But she has this beautiful black. I don't know if if we call it beautiful, but her tummy postpartum tummy looks exactly like mine. And to see that, because through her clothes, and through Michael as you can't say that. It just makes you feel normal. And yeah, it's so nice to see that instead of this. Yeah. ripped body that people have to spend their entire life, you know, working towards and that's okay, if they want to do that. But that's not what everyone looks like. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, they're certainly I'd say in the minority of, like, certainly people that I know. So it's sort of nice to realize that it's okay to have stretch marks on your belly after you've had children. Yeah, yeah. person I photographed who you know, is what people would idolize as you know, this perfect in what you call this inverted commas, body, but she's got lots of stretch marks and stuff, too. So you know, it's that. Yeah, there is no perfect buddy. Is there? Everybody's beautiful. That was Yeah, yep. Yes. Like enough of the sheet. Yeah. So how did you find that personally taking the photos for them? Was that? Was that a really fun experience for you? Or was that challenging for you to try and pump them up and help them feel? Okay, or were they already feeling like that sort of Jay came in feeling nervous. And once I took the boys off, everyone, yeah, it was really easy. It was just fun. Yeah. Really, really fun. Yeah. Yeah. That would have been nice. music pumping and we had a glass of champagne. And yeah, it was good. Yeah. That's so wonderful. And you had a photo as well, didn't you? You did a photo. Yeah. So we re and I photographed ourselves. And that was confronting, but also so liberating. Like I felt good. I felt good being able to share my normal buddy. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. There's a lady I follow on Instagram. I can't think of her name now. But she says she has this saying about how to get a Beachbody. Put your bathers on like, that's a lot of money. Like, we don't have to write like I was I was involved in the fitness industry for many years instructing and coaching and I got really caught up in the whole culture of it. And then and all of a sudden, I started to see it for what it was and had this massive change because like you say, It's okay to be healthy. But then it was to the extreme it was to the detriment of everything else in your life, basically. And whenever I hear people say, you know, oh, it's only six weeks till Christmas, so, yeah, it's gonna be we're gonna get our legs ready for summer. And I'm just like, you know, just so cross. Yeah. Yeah. And it was interesting for me, like upstairs was hardcore. Everyone was looking themselves in the mirror had the light is like Lauren Jane gear, it was all very full on. And then, after I had my second child, I was approached to go back and do Aqua aqua aerobics downstairs. And it was the best thing I ever did. Because I met Eric. And I go grab me grab me. Otherwise, you'll just make that noise over your audio. Yeah. Go for it. Elijah, we love it. Look at that smile. Yeah, I was just say when when I went downstairs and met real people with real bodies and real issues. It was wonderful for me, I made some amazing friends. And I looked at the fitness in a whole different way. It was like, fitness to be able to live your life not fitness to be prance around. And sorry, I'm being rude. But it was just it was such a game changer. I think everybody that that's hardcore fitness should go and do an AquaClass and just be around people who, if they don't do this AquaClass they won't be able to walk like they've got. So you know, yeah, just do you think that was a really big mind shift for me when I did start because I was not in a good way. In my head. And physically. My health wasn't great. I wasn't looking after myself at all. And I started to eat better move my body. And my goal was just literally just to go for half an hour walk whatever pace I wanted, didn't have to flog myself sweating it out or jumping around or doing burpees like it was just, you know, getting back to the basics of how I should be looking after myself from the inside out. And that was the best thing it wasn't I need to look like, you know, I think that's terrible. But yeah, yeah, it's not about you know, yeah. Didn't need to look like Heidi Klum. I just needed to start looking at looking after my insides. And you know, if you are looking after yourself, doesn't matter what size you are. It does be mounted for you, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it very general. Like it comes from within like, it's like you can see people are a fired up from within. It's just agenda changes everything about your life. It's just so amazing. So the whole family takes better. Yeah, yeah, my kids are happier and happier. And yeah, you should, you should put time aside for yourself because everyone benefits from it. A lot of people believe and I added to that, once you're a mother, then you're complete. So there's this idea, this idea that becoming a mother will solve everything. But then once you become a mother, you don't feel like you're doing that job well enough all of the time. So therefore, you're not complete. And you have to keep this cycle of Yeah, that was just a thought that popped in. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's like you think I'm gonna get married and have kids and then life will be amazing. And I won't have any problems anymore. It's like just yet. So new problems. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I once had a friend who thought that quitting her job, she hated her job. So her solution was to quit her job and have kids and that would make her happy. Ya know? Yeah. Yeah. It's ideal that you're working towards this thing, and that's when you reach the top but it just keeps getting higher and higher. That point doesn't keep shifting the way you thought it was. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's incredible. You. I feel that when I've been pregnant or postpartum in the early stages of postpartum, it does affect me and my ability to be creative. I think you do get exhausted in pregnancy and in those initial postpartum phases. And I feel like I go back to doing the standard, which is still beautiful, and I still enjoy what I do, but my ideas don't flow. And there's like this block. That happens in my head. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if other artists, other artists feel that way as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Because it's like, all of your energy is, goes towards keeping a child alive, basically, like you sort of yeah, you go to some sort of, what's the word? I'm thinking of? Like a primal, a primal behavior. And really, it stops the creativity part of your brain because you don't need that to keep a child alive. Yeah, you just need day to day action. So it's yeah, it's very, very common. Yeah, you're there you go. Very, very. Yeah. And then I almost feel like this veil gets lifted. Yeah. And then, yeah, my ability to create and think of new ideas and try different things. And yeah, almost new ideas come and new inspiration comes because I've just been through that. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's where I'm at at the moment, which is exciting. Yeah. It was a funny little chat. Not until I put myself first, you know, six months after Paddy was born, the part of the time, I feel like that's when my identity shifted from, I am a mother to I'm a mother, and I'm, you know, a photographer, and I'm someone who enjoys Pilates. And, yeah, it took me a long time to separate myself from just being a mom. And it was a really good place to get to. And then I think that helps to, maybe that is what aligns with that veil lifting postpartum, because you are separating yourself as from just being a mother. But, you know, it does have its merits with my work too, because I feel like I miss what I used to do before photography, like, you know, being a therapist, and I'm Miss having a newborn. So you know, getting to photograph newborn say I get to I feel like I get to have those really deep postpartum chats with mom sometimes and talk about breastfeeding because, you know, I'm very, like, pro a pro breastfeeding, I'm a pro. Trade is best, but I've been lucky to have been able to feed. So you know, giving mums advice if they want help with that, but then also being able to be creative. Like I feel like I'm very lucky that my job has led me you know, well, what I like to do creatively has become my job and I've been able to merge all those things in together. Yeah, that's so cool. Like you actually, basically um, create relationships with your clients is slow. Yes. You're not going there clicking the button. It's actually yeah. You know. Yeah. And I really think that's such an important part, you know, in? Well, I feel like that has a massive part in the success of my work because people feel comfortable with you. And you're going to get well, for my style of photography going to get those shots that you're looking for. Yeah, people are just being themselves, they feel that they can be themselves be at ease connect with the people that they love. Yeah, it's good. Oh, that's good on. Yeah. A lot of work, and you're reaping the benefits of that. So well done. Yeah, that's good. Yes. No. Do you feel very lucky? Yeah. There are a lot of times where I think what am I doing? Yeah. Yeah. Hence the psychologist that I mentioned. Yeah. And, you know, that's something important to mention, too. I think like, I personally see my psychologist and keep on top of my mental health. And I think it's something that's really common and really important, and people don't need to be afraid to seek help. From outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's a huge stigma. I think that if you, if you see a shrink, there must be something severely wrong with you. And well, it can just be a healthy part of, you know, keeping, you know, just like drinking enough water or whatever, you know. Yeah, absolutely. It's either as part of a healthy lifestyle, looking after yourself mentally. You know, you're going for your walk. You know, healthy eating. It's just part of the whole holistic. Looking after. Yeah. Yeah. I think that stigma, I don't know if he's getting. He's getting less but definitely, as the generations roll through. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. All right. Oh, let you go and have fun with that little man. Yes, he's getting busy using your intuitive, aren't you? Right? Is he on the move? Is he easy all over? He's up rocking on his knees, but not moving at all. I really want to, you know, hope that he will have achieved before he starts childcare, I'd like him to be crawling, no, darlin, God. And as time went on that to Trump is at the bottom. Want to ask you, if you've got anything coming up that you want to share? Like, I'm not sure if that's, you know, applicable? If you've got any projects, or you know, well, we do have one, I think happening in the later stages of the we haven't met about it yet. But it's gonna be more directed at mental health. Yeah. And I'm really excited, I think because of my background as well. I'm not sure what it's going to look like yet, or anything like that. But yeah, well, that's it, you have to watch this space. Oh, for sure. So you really do enjoy getting involved with other sort of like minded people in your community, there might not be photographers, but it's like, you'd like to collaborate and create. I do that with people. But it's very hard to find that balance, too. Because it does take up a lot of time. And it's not paid work. You know, that's just creative work. So balancing, you know, taking on enough work to pay the bills, and then doing enough creatively and then having enough time as mom that you know, all the things we just talked about. Yeah, it's not an all the time thing. Yeah. But it's you've got to have those those different outlets to I suppose to satisfy your creative you personally what you want to create as well. Like he wants to have a chat to you, don't ya? Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show. Noise I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Emily Johnson US author S2 Ep53 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome! Today's guest is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of 1 from Raleigh, North Carolina, USA. Emily grew up with a creative mother, she spent many years dancing ballet and golf. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing, When Emily was 13 her mum was diagnosed with advanced stage Ovarian Cancer. Statistically, she had very little time left and shortly after, she began writing a novel entitled Bird of Paradise , She lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her mum's passing, Emily opened her mums laptop and found her unfinished novel, and a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finish the novel for her. It took Emily 8 years to complete this epic task, and along the way the process took her through emotional ups and downs, processing grief, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. **This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety.** Purchase the book - Bird of Paradise Read the article by Rachel Harris that inspired Emily Connect with Emily Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. It really does mean so much. My guest today is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of one from rally in North Carolina in the United States. Emily grew up with a creative mother. She spent many years dancing ballet and golf, and she enjoyed many trips to say The Phantom of the Opera. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing. When Emily was 13, her mom was diagnosed with advanced stage ovarian cancer. Statistically she had very little time left and shortly after she began writing a novel entitled bird of paradise. Emily's mom lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her passing, Emily opened her mom's laptop and found her unfinished novel. Together with a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finished the novel. He took Emily eight years to complete this epic task along the way, processing her grief, through emotional ups and downs, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety. The music you'll hear today is from Australia New Age ambient music trio LM job, which features myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Emily. It's a real pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So you're in North Carolina in the US. So what's it like there at the moment? What's your weather doing? It's doing the typical North Carolina spring. So one day it's winter and the next day it is oppressively hot and humid. So I believe today is supposed to be warm tomorrow. Thunderstorms tornadoes last week, and who knows? Maybe snow by the end of the week. Oh, wow. I'm joking about the snow. We're over that. But it's a funky time of year here. Yeah. Right. And like tornadoes. Like that doesn't sound that fun. Is that? No, no, it's not. I mean, we're not not like the tornadoes they get in the Midwest, but a tornado is a tornado as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Oh, goodness. Well, that's one thing I have never had to come across here. So that's, you know, I have no experience on that. But and you said just while we're chatting that you're not originally from North Carolina. Where are you from? Originally? I am originally from Aspen, Colorado. Ah, yep. Yeah. They were born there. Yeah. I was there for 13 years before my family moved to North Carolina. Yep. Oh, beautiful. That's, that is a beautiful part of the world. I kind of think of my creativity as being two folds. By Day and profession. I'm in marketing and advertising, which is certainly creative. I call it box creativity because you can only go so far. You've got clients and, you know, length. Regulations. And you know, I mean, a tagline can only be so creative. And then unexpectedly, I just published a book, while I guess just is a year ago. And it's a work of fiction. So a lot of creativity. It was actually originally begun by my mom when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And she passed away leaving it unfinished and a couple weeks after she passed away I found a letter from her that had her unfinished manuscript And she asked me to finish it for her. So, yeah, it was a Titanic, you know, trying to do that. But after eight years, I finally finished it. And I am still shocked and surprised that it's published. Congratulations. That's an epic, epic story. So you had no idea that Did you know that she was working on it? And you just assumed that it it sort of just been left to one side until you read the letter? Yes, I did. I mean, I knew for years she was writing it. And I knew she'd spent hours doing it. And I'd always ask what she was writing about. And she told me I'd find out eventually, and then I'd asked, Can I read it? And she said, you'll find out about it eventually. You know, and said, I had no idea what it was about. I mean, the first time I sat down to read it, after she passed it, I was just, I was blown away. I was shocked. Never in a million years could I have I imagined my mom writing something like this. And she's a brilliant woman. But it was just amazing to me. And so yeah, it was shocking. Oh, goodness. So I'm gonna go I'm gonna leave that story there. For sake just leave everybody on the tip of the chairs waiting. But I want to go back to, to you as a as growing up. And as a child, I guess. Were you creative? Then? Were you interested in the arts or music or things like that when you're growing up? Yeah, I mean, I loved it. I danced ballet for years and years and years. Certainly not professionally. But it was something that I really enjoyed doing. And so I had an appreciation for the classical arts. I've always been a big fan of musical theater. When I was in fourth grade, my parents took me to go see Phantom of the Opera. And I was pretty much hooked since then, I think I've seen at about 14 times, all over the world, which is kind of, I don't know, crazy, maybe fanatical. But I just I love going to the Broadway shows. And I've just always loved the symphony. And you know, any of the arts has just been a huge part of my life. I even wrote grants for the professional ballet company here for several years. Yeah. Anytime I get a chance to go and see anything in the theater on there. Yeah, that's interesting. You say about the Phantom. That was the first show that I ever saw. The town that I live in, were sort of 500 kilometers between. I don't know what that is in miles, sorry. But we're like halfway between these two major cities in Australia, Adelaide and Melbourne. So we don't have we don't have big things come here. But this one time, I don't know how maybe I was 11 or 12. And mum took myself and my sister on the bus to go over and say it. And then as soon as it finished, we got on the bus and drove back home again. Like it was just this quick trip. But that was ah, yeah, I can definitely relate to you about that. That being the first show that you see. It just it's incredible shows and it's just I love it. I mean, I when I was a kid, I even put on a one woman show the Phantom of the Opera in my living room from my parents so that they were chandelier falling and everything. Fabulous. I play the piano, you know, just for fun and kind of stress release and things like that. And I'm a golfer I played competitive golf throughout my high school years. I still play not competitively, but there's some creativity to that. And when you end up in the woods, you got to figure out how to get yourself out of their vision what could be I never thought about golf that way actually, my husband used to play and I never thought he was very creative. But you know, that's a good point. If you're hitting it straight, it's not creative. But if you're all over the place, you gotta get yourself over to that green. I love that. That's awesome so, your mum, she said You said she was you know, a brilliant person in your words was Was she always sort of creative and doing things and and you're exposed to that when you were growing up? Yeah, I mean, she was very artistic. Her art did not pass down to me at all. She never really did anything, you know, other than just for pure joy of it. She used to love doing paper cuttings, and I still remember her doing Apple birds and grapefruit roses for dinner parties. Oh, you know, she she just loved that kind of creativity. She was a school teacher. She taught elementary school. She was actually my teacher in second and third grade is the only teacher ever sent me to the principal's office she Yeah, that was embarrassing. But, you know, after she retired when we move North Carolina, she did a lot of work with curriculum and she worked for I can't think it's the American Curriculum Development Society, I think is what it was called, don't quote me on that. And so she did a lot of talks around the country about developing curriculum for elementary school level. But I just I always enjoyed watching her create things. Yeah, that would have been like a really awesome sort of environment to grow up with having that, like encouragement. And, yeah, yeah, it was, she's, she's like, every year, we used to go to New York and go to some Broadway shows. And that was kind of our celebration of our birthdays. And it always would be fast with the opera would be number one, and then we'd go see a couple others as well. So I have a lot of memories of that. So that's it. Like that's a really good setup for you, regardless of whether then you actually have this incredible task given to you by your mom to, to complete the book, what what was your first thoughts? I mean, you have shared that you couldn't believe that she had written it, when you had to think about you then writing it, how did you feel about taking on that task? You know, it's really funny writing, it was the easy part for me. I think I just I knew my mom's so well, that once I read through this and got to know her characters and, and their motivations and who they were, I actually the story came to me fairly quickly, I wrote the end before anything else, and then backtracked my way to that black and white line of where she ended. And then, you know, when I, when I created the ending of the story and the story arc, I had to complete it. So I had to go back to what she had written, and add in events and some conversations just to make it cohesive. But it, you know, it and so I guess, in part, it was almost therapy for me, because so much of her even though it's fictional, is in this book that I was able to, you know, really continue a conversation with my mom, for nearly eight years after she passed away. And in that immediate moment, after her passing is, is very difficult. You know, and everyone has a different way of grieving. And this helped me through it enormously. Because it just felt like I could talk to her. Yeah. So how did it feel then when you're coming up to finish it? Did that feel like you didn't really want to finish it? Like you knew that would be the end? You know, of the? Yeah, I, I think part of the eight years of me trying to write this, yeah, I changed careers, I had a child, which I know we'll probably be talking about. So I had a lot of distractions. But part of me also thinks I never really wanted to finish it. Because I knew that would close a chapter on my life with my mom. And I could have gone over and over and over this, you know, indefinitely, but just decided I have to stop at some point. And just type the end. And I really thought that was it. I mean, I never really intended to publish it. And then I just happened to know someone that knew someone who was in publishing and got my manuscript to them. And all of a sudden, they wanted to publish it. So it was amazing, but I just, you know, and now I can look back on it. It's been 10 years since my mom passed away. So now I can kind of look back on it. And it's a new way of connecting with my mom, you know, our words are gonna be forever intertwined in this book. And so, you know, I can kind of think to that as well. Yeah, that's such a beautiful story. Like, yeah, and um, yeah, sorry, I'm getting emotional. That's just so special, isn't it? Like, you're right forever. You're in your mom's words and your ideas and concepts and everything will be together in this one document. That's pretty massive, isn't it? Yes. I mean, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. It was so much fun getting to do it. And just knowing that that her dream of being published was was going to be fulfilled Yeah. Like on one hand, it's like, I want to say it's a lot of pressure to put on you because she obviously knew you're capable. She wouldn't have done it, I guess. But yeah, that achieving it is just, you know, like you said, it's, it's meeting that dream that your mom had. And that's pretty special, isn't it to be added, I think she always intended me to be the one to finish really put the letter in the copy of the unfinished manuscript somewhere, which she knew I would find it. It was in her closet under her computer. And she, I think she knew I'd go snooping for it because I wanted, I knew it was on her computer, I knew her password. And I think she just knew, you know, I was gonna go try and find this. And So lo and behold, there it was. And yeah, I am I, my mother never did anything, unintentionally. That just wasn't her way. And I really think that she, she knew how much I'd need this, she knew that I'd be capable of finishing it, even if I didn't think I was gonna be. And so I think she really, this was her way of, of making sure I was going to be able to make it through the next few years, until I got to that point in my grieving period, where I knew that I was going to make it through versus this is where I'm going to be forever in this empty space, you know, without my mom. So you know, and I and the way with the story goes, I don't want to give anything away. But there's a ton of me in this, I mean, you can, you can almost in a sense, feel my emotional growth throughout, you know, the book as well. And because the book follows a young girl who starts out at the age of 17, at the beginning, which is in 1967, in San Francisco, which is when my mom was in San Francisco, that's where she grew up. So the 60s in San Francisco, she's got some had some great stories. But you know, the in the book follows a decade long journey of this girl, as she, you know, learns to find her place in the world and who she is and, and learns that you have to overcome things in order to find the beauty in life. And so it it there's a very strong central family in it. That is very much like what my family was. And so I can see little bits and pieces and the characters and the stories and things. And I think she you know, she knew I'd need that there's a lot of life lessons that you really hope you can pass on to your children, but she didn't know if she'd be there. She had terminal cancer. I mean, I was 15 She got diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She had had breast cancer before that. And they told her, you know, statistically, people don't survive this. And she made it nearly 17 years past that. She wished she told her doctors, you know, you, you better make sure on there to see my daughter walked down the aisle. That was her ultimate goal. And I put, you know, like I said, I was 15. That was a long ask for terminal cancer. But she was there, she saw me get married, to have her doctors that were with her the whole time. Also, were there to see me get married, which was really special to me. And you know, she just she wasn't going to take no for an answer. She was just, that was it. She wasn't going until she was ready to go. And that's I think what? What made her the survivor? She was. Yeah, well, that is just an inspiration in itself, really, isn't it? Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about your family that you mentioned that you had a child during this process. And yeah, share us share with us about your family. Well, I have one son, he's seven and a half now, which is absolutely unbelievable to me. And my husband and the three of us live in Raleigh, North Carolina. My husband's an engineer. And like I said, I do marketing advertising. And my son his full time profession is to be crazy. I joke that he's solar powered, going and going and going to use the joy of my life. Yeah, I can relate. I've got a six and a half year old. So you know, around that time? They are they like the Energizer Bunny, they just go and keep going and going and go and they just don't stop. Do they know they never do. So how was that like then trying to write and then, you know, raise a little ball of energy. Yeah, well, I mean, I, you know, I started, I started writing, I got pregnant, I guess a year and a few months after my mom passed away. And so I I had already started writing this a little bit prior to getting pregnant. And then during the pregnancy process, I was actually I feel like my creativity went up tenfold. I don't know why. Once I got past that third trimester that or the first trimester that was a little rough week. We could do it without that. But you know, I had this time I slowed down my my actual profession quite a bit during my pregnancy, it was kind of a rough one. So I spent a lot of time at home. And this is how I filled my time. And then once he was born, I put it down, I almost forgot about it. It was it was a couple years. I mean, it wasn't until he went to preschool that I was able to pick it up again. And he was in preschool for about six hours a day. So I dropped them off. And then I'd go to a local coffee shop with my computer and just sit and write. And that's kind of how I went about and then we, you know, when he went immediately, well, not immediately, he actually ended preschool early because of COVID. And did virtual kindergarten. So that was a bit rough. And I did not, you know, it's during that virtual kindergarten is when I was able to get this published. So he'd be sitting there and I'd be editing it and listening to him on the computer as well. So so it was definitely on and off. And that's I think, why it took me eight years to bash hmm, yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you about your identity when, when you became a mom, did you have the sort of shift in? I don't know, we sort of joked that feels like we've been hit by a truck. And, you know, we don't know, if we're up the right way or the wrong way, whatever. Did you sort of experience that sort of emotions when you had yourself? I did. I mean, it was funny. I was, you know, it was very hard for me giving birth without my mom. My dad's older sister actually came out for several weeks to be there with me. And then I was so late in my delivery that she left a couple days after, because she, she needed to get back to our family. But you know, so I think for the you know, it's just such a shock. It's like hitting a brick wall, where you have those moments of pure joy. And then all of a sudden, you think, Oh, my gosh, I'm responsible for another life. And I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, it was, you know, my son sneezed. And I immediately wanted to call my mom and ask if I needed to take him to the hospital or not. But she wasn't there, you know, and my dad was completely overwhelmed as well, I don't know, what do you do? You know, and it was, you know, so for the first few years, it was really difficult. Not that it's not still difficult, but it was just kind of, I really just became Nate's mom. That's what I did. And then I ended up going back to work. I'll be it a little differently. It wasn't in the ad agency, or nonprofit world. But I ended up going back to work and did that for several years, my college roommate, who I was still really good friends with, actually ended up watching my son while I was at work, which was, you know, I had someone to trust. But I just got to that point where I felt like I was missing him, I felt guilty that he was away from me. And so I stopped working, which I never thought I do. I always intended to be that career person that would have a family and juggle their full time career and figure it out. And then all of a sudden, that wasn't important to me. I just, you know, I lost that, that drive to have that type of career. And in advertising, it is very difficult not to be 100% committed to the career if you want to move up. It's just it's a cutthroat business. And so yeah, my my identity as a career woman completely went out the window. And I became a full, you know, full time mom. And now I'm able to do freelance marketing advertising. So I have my own clients, I can work from home on my own schedule. And I've built a business that way, which has been fabulous, but I still remember hitting that moment where I I looked in the mirror and I was like, I don't even know who I am. I mean, I've I've everything is now revolved around my family, which is great. But I saw myself starting to go downhill because I had lost who I was. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? If you if you don't sort of look after yourself and know who yourself is, I suppose you do. You do risk just sort of dis dissipating. I suppose just like you said, just being nice mum. And, and that's all you exist for. And then that can be I don't know, I actually spoke to a lady a couple of days ago when I was recording. And she had the same experience. She always wanted to have four children. That was her dream was just to have four children. And she had to and realize how hard it was but she just kept pushing on and she got the four and then she thought she'd be happy. They she thought Once I've met my goals, this is what I want. Now I should be happy. And then she couldn't work out why she wasn't happy anymore. And it was because she'd lost sight of who she was. Like she was just existing for her children, basically. So, yeah, it's scary when you get to that point. I mean, there's a lot of feelings that go into that. And I actually, you know, I had started to try and find my point of passion, again, that fit into, you know, that circle of family, I mean, there's things that I would love to be going to do. But you just can't, as a mom, I mean, there's, you know, the logistics of babysitting, and school and things like that. But I needed to find that thing that was just mine. And I started to do it, I got really into kickboxing, and I went to the gym. I had a trainer who had I've known for years, because I broke my back when I when I think from years of playing competitive golf, I had fractured my back unknowingly, but it came to a head in 2011, and I had to get surgery. And so he was my physical therapist when I was able to kind of start getting back to it. So, you know, I'd always been working out, but it really became a central focus for me, when I found out that I had completely lost who I was. And, you know, I obviously, you know, if some, my son needed something, I had to put the working out on the back burner for a little bit. But, you know, I tried very hard to protect that hour of my day. And but then, you know, you kind of start losing it a little bit when when something happens, or your son goes to school, or, you know, there's a life change. And then I read an article in a magazine that Rachel Harris wrote, she's an actress, and you know, about her becoming a mom in in the acting world, and what she learned about it, and she got really into fitness as well. You know, and she just, she realized that being a happy mother made you a good mother, you know, and that, so I didn't feel the guilt anymore about really taking that time for myself, because I realized what I was doing was actually helping my son and not harming him. So, absolutely, yeah, that's something that really common theme on the podcast is people talk about having their own needs met, so then they're able to meet the needs of others. And I think that's, you know, as a mom, who's there for everybody, not, you know, you're not just there for the children, but you know, your, for your partner and your job. Or if you've got, you know, pets, you've got to look after, like, you're there for everybody, like, there's so hard, you know, and I suffer from anxiety, I was always a type A personality, and then the older I got, and then having a child, I took my anxiety up to a huge level, and that would interfere with my ability to do things. And so, you know, working out came became the way to combat it. I took it a bit too far, not that long ago and broke my ankle doing it. But you know, you have to be, you know, a little careful. You know, I really did. I mean, if I'm happier, my family's going to be happier, I'm going to be more present in the moment, which is so important. Rather than thinking of the what if this happens, or I didn't do this, right, or, you know, it, it's so important, I think, to do that. And I I fall, you know, off the wagon every once in a while and have a moment of complete, you know, panic about things, but I think I'm getting better. I'm a work in progress. I think we all love to be honest, everyone has their moments. And then, but I think it's having that goal, like you said that, that point of passion, which I think is awesome, saying I'm going to start using that is, is really does, you know, even if you, you're conscious that you haven't done it for a couple of days, whatever, it's always in your mind now because you've got something that you know, makes you feel amazing. And, and that in turn, you know, helps you, you know, be the mom that you want to be I suppose for one, it's very much. That's a lot of my mom, my mom, because it's a theme throughout the whole book is finding that thing that you're passionate about and finding your sanctuary, which she always said was you know, finding who you are and knowing you know, knowing who you are and liking who you are. And once you find that place, you know, things the good will come. But she was always one to live passionately, you know, she had to face her mortality. So she lives you saying she lives every day to the fullest. It's kind of weird because someday she just you know, throw up her hands and you know shout and yell and say things I can't say on a podcast. But everyone's allowed to do that. You know, I mean if you don't if you're perpetually perky, it's you're hiding things that's just not human nature. She was a big proponent of of Never Letting Go Have passion in your life. And unfortunately I did. And you know, since that's a theme throughout the book, I mean, this, this book is really almost a guide for me at various stages of my life, and I'm forever thankful for that. Yeah. It's awesome. It's like, you've got your own personal little, you know, I don't want to call them a self help book, because it's not, but you know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's a little, little reminder for certainly self help, you know, it's not what to expect when expecting, but it is definitely self help. For me. I mean, I just, there's little reminders in there, where I just have to say, oh, yeah, you know, I forgot to do that I forgot, I forgot me, I forgot to hold on to that passion. And I really, it has changed my life to remember to go back and take care of myself. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. That's an incredible gift for your mom to give you to like to raise you in that way. And to, to actually role model that for you for you. And then, you know, I'm sure as your son grows up, like, he's going to have the same sort of mentality, because that's how you're authentically living your life in that way. It's just I hope so. I mean, it's, you know, I can see a lot of meat in him with his personality, you know, he looks just like my husband, except for his hair, his hair is as wild as mine is. But, you know, he, he's very type A, I can see the anxiety in him. You know, and I'm hoping that I can combat that. You know, from being on the other side, I know what it's like to have that anxiety, you know, in college, sometimes it can be, you know, detrimental. It can, it can make things very difficult sometimes, you know, particularly with exams. And so I'm hoping, you know, that I can I can impart that wisdom on him, like my mom did to me, or tried to do to me. But it took me to getting an adult in my mother myself to understand exactly what my mom was trying to say to me the whole time. And you know, and this book is his grandmother's legacy, and his mom's legacy. I did very similar to my mom, I tried to put in, you know, like I said, it's a fiction, but there's some very deep, you know, things for me, not only, you know, with the storyline and places that the book goes that I wrote from experience. I mean, he'll get to, you know, see some of my experiences in life. But it's also I tried to put in, in those lessons that I want to pass on to him as well. Yeah, you know, and it's, it's, he's very proud of it, which just makes me feel warm and fuzzy. He drew an art in art class, he drew a picture of the cover. And I just, you know, I went to tears when I saw that. Oh, that's beard focus. Yeah, that's, that's was something I was going to ask you is like, how does you know? Does he know that his mom's an author? And obviously he does and yeah, like, very proud of it. I mean, to hear him talk you think I was like a best selling you know, New York Times famous author. So yeah, it's great to see I mean, you you hope that your children see you as this hero figure in your life. Y'all not so I saw my parents I was very close to my parents. I was an only child just like my son is going to be because I was after his birth I was one and done. It was not gonna happen again. Oh, I was yeah, that was not I'm so thrilled with the way it turned out but it was not pleasant. Yeah, but it's just you know, that's just it makes it worth it. Yeah, I nearly I nearly only had one because I had a very terrible delivery and then a very challenging baby. So my kids have got seven nearly seven half years between them. It took a while to get back on the wagon. I understand that I just never got back on the wagon Yeah, no good on you. will get a dog that's all. Yeah, now I could have easily have done that. was at the point where I was either going to get a hysterectomy or have another child like that's how my brain was like flip flopping between the two options. You know, it was my husband it was not was not not in the cards. Tell us the name of the book called Bird of Paradise. Can you share what it's called that? Or is that sort of comes out in the book more? Would you rather know? Yeah, it's funny, I don't, you know, my mom titled it. And I found out from the very little notes that she left that at one point, she was gonna call it letters to my daughter, which just gives me the warm fuzzies. Because a lot of it is kind of have that relationship between the mom and the daughter. It's it's a lot of that. But she her favorite flower in the world was bird of paradise, she had one in the room that she did the majority of her writing. So it does, you know, for her it, there was a bird of paradise flower that the mother took everywhere the family went, because the father's job takes them to all these different exotic locations like London and Paris and Hong Kong and Jakarta and all these amazing places. And so she always brings the bird of paradise with her. But that's where it ended with my mom. It's part of the story. And because I knew how important it was, I carried it into a much larger theme where it became symbolic and not necessarily just the flower. So there's it's twofold. You know, and there's bird of paradise all over the cover. There's a there's an island in the book, which is the family's true home, even though they live all over the world. And that island is, is the one place in the book that doesn't really exist. It was all made up in my mom's mind. I've had so many people ask me, you know, where is it and I have no earthly idea. But it is this beautiful idea like tropical islands that I would love to find Sunday. And of course there's bird of paradise on. So just coming back to how you approached writing the book, did you have to? Did you find that your style of writing was already, like similar to the way that your mom had written? Because you've been reading? Or did you have to make a real conscious effort to try and make the way that you're writing blending with your mom's? It was a very conscious effort, because just my background is in journalism and marketing, which is not descriptive and poetic. I mean, you have to say what you want to say and get out of there. And so, you know, for me, it was I wrote very black and white. My mom was very descriptive. You know, very, I've had people compare it to a movie in the mind. So there was no little detail she left you know, hidden and you know, so my first draft of this, you could tell it was two different writers. It was my draft was very, you know, just this is what happened. These are the facts. And here's the story and, and I knew that was going to happen. So I had to go back over, you know, my my sections of it. And just I've said several times, and I hold true to it that it was like an oil painting, where you just add layer upon layer of description until I got to that level of what my mom's writing was. And that took you know, it took a massive amount of some of it was evaluating my internal feelings and using that to get to that level. A lot of it was finding Google Images that spoke to me that made sense within the story and just scribing them, or finding, you know, this book goes somewhere, and I don't want to reveal where it is, but this book does go to a location that is one of the most special places in the world to me. And so I was able to pull out old family photos and, and the feelings I had of seeing these things in person and, and use that, to really describe it, I'm still shocked that I was able to do it. I'm shocked that nobody really knows the true line of where I took over 100% Not even my publisher. You know, it's just my father is the only one that knows, and I hope it stays that way. I've had people guess, and you know, and things like that. But I don't want really any I don't want to reveal that. No, I Yeah, even if they guess, right, you're not going to tell it because it's gonna smile and say, you know, no. Yeah, that's true. No, but that's the thing, too. It's, it's part of this incredible story. It's the joining together. But at the same time, it's the same. It's one in the same if you know what I mean. Like, yeah, you you wouldn't want people to to like to tell people because I don't know. It just doesn't it wouldn't feel right, wouldn't it? I know. And it was very important to me, you know that I stay true to my mom's story. This was her story. You know, I, I made sure her name was listed first on the cover. That was really, really important to me. For some reason, it's small, little detail. But that was that was essential that that happened because it is hers. These characters are hers. Just because I completed their story art doesn't mean I took them over. And I didn't want to take away from her writing, you know, I could have easily gone in here and just stripped her writing down to match more my writing style. The book is over 550 pages long. It's a saga of a book. But and I could have certainly done that. But then I would have it wouldn't have been hers anymore. And that's what's so special about it. And she didn't leave any notes. For me whatsoever. There was no outline, she created every character with the exception of one I just had a name and knew who that character was supposed to be in the story. And that was a lot of fun for me to create that particular character. I have a feeling she did that on purpose. I don't think she wanted to box me in. I think she wanted me to be able to take the story where I wanted to take it. I actually don't even remember her writing for the last year of her life. Granted, I didn't live at home, but I think she stopped intentionally. I mean, I just I I don't know why I just have this feeling. But I think she, she did not want me to feel like I had to stick to one particular story. I like to think where I took it is exactly where she would have. Because I knew her like that. I knew that the way she thought, you know, this is this book starts as a coming of age family saga. And then as the main character gets older and more experienced, it works its way into a romance. And you know, I think you know, and I just think that's something she wanted me to experience as well. This is such an awesome story. Honestly, how many people can say that they've done what you've done. Like, it's just you must feel like incredibly, like proud and privileged. And, you know, all the all the big words and emotions like to have been able to do it. I'm so honored by the fact that she entrusted me with something that she had worked so hard on and, and I am very proud of it. I'm blown away by the reception. It's gotten the things that people have said, I mean, I've been compared to famous authors that I never had a million a barber freebie, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool. And, you know, and then you know, so it's just been absolutely incredible, you know, the experience and the almost the confidence that has given me again, I mean, that's something as a mother, I don't know, if it's just me or a lot of mothers, you start losing your confidence in your ability to do things. Am I ever gonna be able to do this again? Or is this any good? Or am I any good? You know, and I think a lot of that comes down to a first time Mother, you don't know what you're doing. So there is not a lot of confidence in that and you carry that through other aspects of your life. Because that's just the mode you get into is you just don't know if you're, if what you're doing is right. And that's the thought patterns you have. And I've always had a bit of a confidence issue anyways, so it just amplified itself. But you know, and then the thing that's really been special is the people that have reached out to me less about the book and more about the fat They've experienced losing a parent or they grew up with a parent that was facing a terminal illness and what that was like for them, or somebody that I hadn't even spoken to, since middle school reached out because his mother had just been diagnosed with cancer. And, and that has, where things have so surprised me. Because I've done a lot of podcasts that have been more grief based podcasts than writing technique. And that's, I think, a gifts, my mom left as well, she was, you know, she'd be in the chemo treatment room in the middle of eight hours of chemo, talking to the person next to them and encouraging them and getting them talking about things that were not cancer related. And that was just the person she was she was this larger than life personality that put so many people and so much ahead of her, not to her detriment, but I think it was part of what kept her going as well. You know, and now I'm getting to do that and carry that legacy on. Everyone talks about the seven stages of grief for what it is which, which to me is a bunch of hooey because nobody goes through grief the same way. You know, you might feel the guilt, which for me was the hardest part, you know, and obviously, you're going to fill that empty void and things and, and I'm still 10 years out grieving. But I think I've hit this point where it's, it's therapeutic to me to now talk about it, I spent years where I could not talk about it. It just was something. You know, I wasn't in denial, but I didn't want to bring up the memories. And that last few days, because she, despite the fact that she fought cancer for 17 years. The end was very quick. She was there one day and on life support the next day, and she passed away the day after Christmas in 2012. And, you know, in a sense, you know, you never want to lose someone, you kind of hope it goes that way. You don't want to see them with a slow decline. We were lucky I got a chance to say goodbye because she knew where things were going. I knew where things were going. And she had prepared me very well for it. You know, not that you can really say you're prepared for that. But I was lucky I got a chance. The last thing I ever said to her was I love you. And she said that back and that was it. And I was I just that's a gift that I will have forever. But, you know, I'm still I'm still like I said I'm still grieving and being able to now talk about it from a way of maybe helping other people is my new stage of getting through this. Yeah. You know, so it's not just helping, you know, it's helping me talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, you can feel like you're prepared. I mean, yeah, there's you can do some preparation, I guess. But when that actually happens, it's like yeah, it's I got that closure that that conversation actually she was fine the night before she went on life support, she's in the hospital, but she was fine. And she and I stayed up almost all night with that, that conversation of closure where you you know you talk about things I mean, when I was a brat as a teenager you know when I got a chance to apologize or I got a chance to tell her you know, hey, I'm gonna be okay you know, I've married this wonderful man I've I've got this in store for me, you know, be comfortable with the fact that I've gotten to that place in my life where I'm I'm happy where I am you know and and I didn't need to apologize for that stuff. But it's you say everything you need to stay knowing that that's the conversation you're having. Yeah, yeah. Just take a moment and have a drink of water. Gonna have some coffee but you're right about grief. I mean, gosh, there is no there is no linear checklist of all the things that you go through in In this particular order, and, you know, my Nana passed away when I was 10. So that's like 40, sorry, 3034 years ago, and I still have moments where I just burst into tears because something's reminded me of a smell something, usually it's a smell. That's me, or I see a particular bird. Pardon me? And I just like, oh, no, I used to love those bits. And then off I go, you know, it's like, you're never, you never stopped grieving someone. I don't think it's just in different ways as time. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I've told you know, there's a lot of people that say, Hey, it'll be okay. But you know, it's not, you know, I used to hate it, when people would tell me that, because it's never going to be okay, that I lost my mom, but it's going to be different. I'm gonna get to that point where I can look back at the gift of the time I had, and not at what I've, what's been taken from me. Because it would be, you know, it's in times like that, it's very easy to get angry and, and resent, you know, whoever or whatever, you know, it's not fair. You know, all this sort of emotion, did you sort of go through that, as well. I didn't go through the it's not fair kind of stage. I remember the first few weeks afterward, you know, you're you're calling the banks and taking care of the credit card from the medical bills and things and I had my dad to go through all of it with but you're very, you know, systematic once you right away, which I think is a blessing, because you're you're not I don't think at least for me, I was not capable of facing the fact that she was gone. And those first few weeks, it was just not going to happen. It was actually the day I found the letter about the book that I finally realized, you know, it's the casseroles have stopped coming, the family's gone, people have gone back to their lives, and mine will never be the same again. And that's the first day that I really let myself go. And, you know, but I think for me, this, the place I stayed the longest, is also the place, that's the most detrimental, and that's the guilt. The guilt that, you know, things you said the smallest little things, you know, teeny tiny little things that the person probably had didn't even remember. And all of a sudden, they come flooding back and you just feel so guilty about the things you've said and, and certain things and the fear that, you know, I had, I went into an instant state of fear with my dad, I wasn't I couldn't lose my dad, I every little thing you know, don't get in a car dad, or make sure you're taking your medicine or so all this kind of stuff. And I stayed down with my dad for a couple months afterward. Because I was able, you know, thank God, I was able to do that. But you know, and so it's those two feelings that really were hard for me. And that guilt took a lot of time to get over, I did go see a therapist. I am not despite the fact that I talked about it on podcast. Now. At that point, I was not someone that would share my emotions. I don't cry in front of people. It's just not, not me. You know, I don't want to I don't want to show it's not a weakness whatsoever to express your emotions. But to me, I felt like it was showing a weakness. And I couldn't do that. I also wanted to be strong for my dad, he'd lost someone he'd been married to for 43 years. And, you know, it's it's and he was young. I mean, my mom was only 63 when she passed away. You know, and so my dad was in his mid 60s as well. And you just don't expect something like that. And, you know, but instead I let myself stay, you know, and it was it was not a therapist that got me there. She said something about guilt. And I all of a sudden realize that's what's preventing me from moving forward. I have got to get this guilt. I've got to work through it. I have got to let it go. And and so that was the biggest part for me. But you know, I never went through the anger. I never went through the denial. I think I just let myself be overcome with the guilt. Yeah, my dad sold their house and moved into another house. And that was a hard thing to say goodbye to and then you know, going through clothes. And you know, my mom had a lot of beautiful jewelry. So I've gotten to keep that and you know, but I did get rid of clothes except for the few that I will never wear. But they just hold special memories for me. I mean, one of them was this, you know, duster jacket she used to wear to fan with the opera every time it was her thing that's not going anywhere. And there's pieces of furniture that are memories of my childhood, which are completely not my style, but I can't give them up. So they're in my you know, guest room, which is the collective room of things that I don't know what to do with. You know, it's the memory room. Yeah. But it's a difficult thing. I think with every little thing. I've been able to let go I've healed a little bit. Knowing that, you know, it's, it's just a process. Yeah, yeah. And it will just take as long as it takes to go through different motions at different times. And it's just It's an ongoing thing, isn't it? It doesn't have an ingress. No, it never has an end, but it gets better. Just going back to you to what you said earlier, you said about how you've gained confidence. Do you think you write another book? I have another book idea. It's actually related to birth paradise. And it's the story of the parents that are in it. I see a lot of my parents and those two characters. And it's funny, because there's a little bit of everybody and all the characters. I mean, there's a lot of my dad and the little brother, my mom, you know, clearly didn't like my high school boyfriend. And I didn't know that until I read the character, the high school boyfriend, I was like, Oh, okay. I know who that is. And the, the way the parents met in this book, is the way my parent my parents actually met, they met at UC Berkeley. And so it would be really neat for me to go back, I'd have to go back much further. In time, since this book starts in 1967, which was a whole nother issue with turning to write it was that it happened during time period, I wasn't alive. That was, that was a lot of research going into that. But yes, I'd have to go back quite a bit. But it would be it would almost start the connection again. And it would give me a chance to go to my dad and find out about his life and use that to put into it. So it's, it's there, it's in my mind, I've tried to start it and it's I just can't get past the first sentence. You know, and I think that's an important thing for a writer to recognize when you've hit that writer's block and just walk away for a while. I've got too much going on with my clients and, and keeping up with my seven year old. Ish, just not right now. It's more of a stress than it is of a way to relieve stress. And that's, you know, writing Berta paradise was very stressed, you know, a way for me to escape the world, a way for me to let go of some stress and get that emotion out. It's, and it went in very positive way, this new book trying to write it, I just felt this is a negative thing for me. And it's time to walk away. So I don't know, is really the answer to the question. I hope so. Yeah, I hope you dig through it when the time's right. You know, when, when life when life gives you that little nod and says, Okay, now it's your turn. And I'm a big believer in that, that, you know, things happen for a reason. And there's little, you know, I, I always my mom always kind of taught me that, you know, you can't control what happens in life, but you can control how you respond to it. And that there's moments where you're given gifts, but whether or not you choose to take them is completely your choice, and you're the one that writes your own story. And that actually, is heavily put into bird of paradise, because it's something that my mom and I had talked about so many times that you know, nothing, nothing is going to be, you know, necessarily given to you, you have you're presented with these gifts, and then it's your choice whether or not you go with it, and they can they can come to you at any moment. But they'll come to you at the right moment when you need it the most. And so hopefully that that gift of writing a new book will present itself at some point and then I will jump on it that is so good. Can you share with us how readers can get a hold of your book? Yeah, it's sold exclusively on Amazon. It is theirs Believe it or not a lot of books called Bird of Paradise. Most of them are nonfiction about the actual flower and bird. So be careful there. But it's a yes. So it's it's by Maryland and Hughes and Emily HUGHES JOHNSON. And it's on Kindle Unlimited. There's a paperback Kindle itself. So yeah, I would love people to read it. I mean, sharing my mom's work with the world has just been incredible. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you like it, review it because it's really important. Read these reviews make the world go round. I do. And unfortunately, I mean, it's something I find myself doing more since having published a book as an unknown author. I mean, I'm completely no one knows who I am. My goal was to sell one book to someone that wasn't related to me. Yeah. And, you know, it's happened, it's been great. But, you know, I find, you know, reviews are so difficult, particularly with Kindle Unlimited, you know, people aren't going to go back and take the time, because we're all busy to go write a review, even though you know, I know what the sales are and things like that. And so, I've tried to find, you know, books that don't have a lot of reviews, because I think a lot of incredible books are missed, because people look at that, and not the book. Yeah. And I have found some incredible books that don't have that many reviews that I just wish, you know, I hope I don't, you know, I don't want to miss out on something from these authors. I'm not trying to tell people to get well, yes, go buy my book. But I'm not trying to say, don't miss it because of reviews. But you know, and I think that's something the publishing industry is so incredible now that they have opened up smaller hybrid publishers, self publishing, you know, things like that, that you have this option for really talented writers who, for one reason or another, can't get in with the top five publishers, and a lot of that is money. It takes a lot of, you know, money and time to go query and get an agent and then get into these publishing companies, and they're so rigid about what they will and will not, you know, published and I follow a lot of writers on Instagram and Twitter, and one of the things from the smaller writers is they get turned down, you know, they get these letters say, it's an incredible story, we love it, but you don't have enough social media followers. You know, and that's, that's, that is so limited. Just you have to wonder how many incredible stories are out there that will never be seen, because of something so unrelated. It's not about you know, in I'm sure, you know, the top five publishers are wonderful, but, you know, you almost concerned about sales more than getting a beautifully written story out there. And that's a real shame, because, I don't know, I have this feeling that, you know, social media exists now. But will it be around forever, you know, like, these, the stories and, and books will probably outlive all of this stuff, you know, and that would be a shame for something to have, just because it was in this time period, when social media was around. And it's being judged by that, for that not to be shared. It's a it shine. Social media is great, and being able to connect, you know, this huge world, but it is also so detrimental to society. And I use it I have to, I mean, that's one of the ways that I market the book, I don't have a choice. But if it wasn't for that, I would start giving up social media, because I just, you know, it's just not it can be you can go down the rabbit hole very quickly. And it's not necessarily a good thing. Oh, I basically got I ended up getting off Facebook for my own personal stuff, because I just, I just couldn't put up with the rubbish anymore. I just thought, like rabbit hole stuff, I just get dragged into things and think why am I caring about this, you know? So now I just go on Instagram, and then I just link it to go on my Facebook. So I never have to go into Facebook. But then I miss a lot of things. If people tag me and stuff or invite me to things. I'm like, oh, sorry, I missed your best friend's having a baby and you don't know about it? Exactly, yeah, put it on Instagram, then Oh, no. Share it with everybody. And then I'll be able to, you know, call and say, Hey, congratulations. But it is funny, like this whole thing that's meant to bring us closer, like we know what people are doing. So we feel like we know what they're doing. But we're not really knowing what they're doing. Because we're just seeing all these little tiny curated aspects of their lives. And it's, it's sort of pushing us apart more in a way. Well, and I think you try and present your best self on social media. I mean, who doesn't you know, you don't you want to make sure you're presenting the the highlights and so many people forget that. It doesn't matter who you are, life is dirty. I mean, it's there's going to be moments where you don't want to present yourself to the world. And so you don't and I think it gives a false sense of who people are, unfortunately, unless you're one of those people that is blatantly you know, getting yourself out there to just showing all the aspects of your life and there are some people out there and I appreciate you know, the people that do that. I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to put Good, the Bad and the Ugly out there. But I think that's something a lot of people unfortunately forget that this isn't showing the whole story. And I think it it negatively influences a lot of people. It's happened to me, I've looked at things and I'm like, gosh, you know, it's it's that that big, ugly, jealous. forbear, yeah. You're like, why can't I be doing the ad? Or or you know, and it's, it's not necessarily happening that way few you know, mom is like that too, you start comparing yourself to other mothers. And you know, every mom is different, every situation is different. And, and you know, you, you want this pride and you're your child and you want your child to excel and exceed, but if you're not careful, you're starting to compare them to others, and not to their best self. And, you know, and I've had to pull myself back from that every once in a while. Question, am I being a good mom? You know, and but it's, it's, am I being a good mom, for my son? Not for the kids of the entire world? Yeah, yeah. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second guessing. And, you know, and I'm doing this correctly. What, you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kid up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless they're moms themselves. Oh, yeah. That's the thing like this, the mom guilt, that sort of label that we've got, I call it a hashtag mom guilt, because it's like, it's just been created for, for social media, but it's huge, like the way that we're forced to judge ourselves. Because I don't know what I find mostly. Is it? Other mums too, but mostly people that don't have children? Or like, or how come she's doing that? Why isn't she with a child? Or? Oh, she, she's going out again that night? You know, like, they're just always making judgments upon you, which makes, then you question yourself, like you said, you, you know, you don't have that self confidence. So you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I don't know is this, I get sick of this whole guilt guilt trip that moms feel like they have to go on? Well, I think just you know, societal norms, I think a bulk of society hasn't gotten past the 1950s. Mom, you know, where the mother is 100% The mother, you know, and that's your focus. And that's what you do. And you You know, I don't want to say you give up life, because that is wrong to any mother and the 1950s. It's not that but there's this almost, you know, it's almost Hollywood created view of what a mother should be. And that hasn't, that hasn't morphed to match the sign of the times, you know, we're way past the 1950s. Now, things are different. Women can be more independent, and they can start putting themselves you know, ahead of things because it's the healthy thing to do. And I think when someone sees a mother that does that doesn't understand that, that that is not being a bad mother is being a good mother. That is That is how, you know, we we deserve to be able to do stuff like that, so that we can come home and then put 100% focus into our families again, because it's impossible. i It's exhausting. And I don't think I've seen my friends that are moms that have just stopped everything to be a mother, which you know, when you have a newborn, you kind of have to do that you don't really have a choice. But if you never change as your child grows older, either. It's very detrimental. And it was for me, I mean, I've learned to start going out with my friends a little bit, not to date the podcast, but COVID put a stop on that one pretty good. But I'm really excited to start doing that again. You know, it's funny because I, during the last few years with everything that's been going on, I have found myself going back to that time where I'm not able to go to the gym, I'm, you know, my son's home, I don't have that that time to myself while he's at school. And I've I've relapsed into that forgetting about myself every once in a while. And when I do that, I go back to that article I talked about from Rachael Harris and reread it gives myself a little bit of a kick in the rear like oops, give yourself a pep talk and then off you go again. To find that letter, it would just be like, oh, man, like, I don't know. It's just It's huge, isn't it? I'm gonna go on the tie at the time, I didn't realize just how big it was. Yeah. You know, you kind of don't you're not thinking so much at that point. Yeah, yeah. Like you said, you going through the motions and doing all the practical stuff that it's got to be done and good on you. I'm really glad my curiosity got the better of me and I tried to get to her computer. I mean, she's, I'm sure she's you mile and down. She knew I would try and do that. Good on it. I really loved having a chat with you today, Emily and hearing your story. It's such a unique story. I'm sure I'll never speak to anyone again in my life who has done what you've done. Congratulations. It's a massive undertaking, and it's it's incredible. And I'm really looking forward to reading in. Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah. It's been crazy. Yeah. Wow. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Claire Tonti Australian musician and podcaster S4Ep97 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Claire Tonti to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne VIC and a mum to 2 children. Claire was right into music in her early 20s, and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album Matrescence which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long covid and being at her lowest point mentally and physically . Matrescence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through post partum and a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing. Claire hosts 2 podcasts, currently Tonts and Suggestible with her husband, and she has previously hosted Just Make The Thing , She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, podcaster and youtuber. Claire is an ambassador for C.O.P.E. and The Giget Foundation and is so passionate about supporting mothers, You can tell Claire is a podcaster/interviewer, as she somehow turns the tables on me during this episode and at times it is hard to tell who is interviewing who! This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode. Matrescence is the physical, emotional, hormonal and social transition to becoming a mother. This episode contains mentions of post natal depression and anxiety, pre natal anxiety, birth trauma, post natal depletion, Claire - website / instagram / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Claire, tracks from her recent album Matrescence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast. It's great to have you here from wherever you're listening, whether it be Australia, United States or in Ireland. This week, I'm pleased to welcome Claire tante to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom to two children. Claire was right into music in early 20s and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album called muttrah essence, which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long COVID And being at her lowest point mentally and physically. Her album muttrah essence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through postpartum. And a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing Claire hosts to podcast currently taunt and suggestible with her husband, and she's previously hosted just make the thing. She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, a podcast and a YouTuber. Claire is an ambassador for cope and the Gidget foundation and she is so passionate about supporting mothers. When you listen to this today, you can tell that Claire is a podcaster and an interviewer as she somehow manages to turn the tables on me during this episode. And at times, it's hard to tell who exactly is interviewing her. This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode with both Claire and myself sharing a lot of intimate details regarding our childbirth experience and postpartum. This episode contains mentions of postnatal depression, anxiety, prenatal anxiety, birth trauma, and postnatal depression. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Claire's music tracks taken from her brand new album called mitr essence, which is available on all of the streaming platforms now, we can head to the link in the bio to purchase them. Please take care of yourselves and enjoy the episode bye. It's been two knees hands yours and mine. beaten, beaten in time. Same rhythm, same kind cause the light brown things clickety clack in and trains long the music came to heart beat the same. Well thank you, Claire, thank you for coming on. Appreciate you being part of the podcast. It's a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh, thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here. I've been really looking forward to this. Oh, good. Excellent. I actually I have been looking forward to change you too. Because as a musician, I love talking to musicians. I love talking to everybody. But you know, it's always good to converse in something that you know. Yeah, you kind of get the weird and wild well don't you like being amused though, and all the different like personality stuff and egos and just like the magic of it too, you know, I guess right? It's really nice. And also to say someone who else is a mom and a musician today, I think to kill a hybrid. Yes, yes. It's its own whole new world really isn't it? Absolutely is exactly right. All right, Alison. Yeah. So yes, you're a musician. People know that now. But you're also, you're also a podcaster. And I think you do too to podcast. Is that right? I do. Yeah, we're not Well, like I think a lot of parents and mothers particularly would say, it's a total mess or time and a rolling feast. But it's also been so much fun, I sort of, I started, just make the thing with my first podcast, which is how to start a thing and keep on making it. And that was an experiment to kind of find my voice. And if I could make a thing, I wasn't doing music. At that point, I had two little kids and running a podcast company doing all the behind the scenes, because my partner's a podcaster, and a YouTuber. And so after I was a primary school teacher, and then went on maternity leave, I sort of started there, helping him to monetize his show, and then other local comedians around the tracks. And I had convinced myself that I wasn't a creative person, but that my role in life was to help other people to be creative. And that's what I loved about teaching and what I kind of built my world as. And for some reason, didn't think I deserved my own space for creativity. And music was certainly the biggest and scariest thing for me. And so I also convinced myself that it wasn't really something I could do, and I wasn't good enough at it. So I probably stopped did music in early 20s, and then came back to it. And so yeah, all that is to say, I started with just make this thing which was just this kind of little dipping my toe in the water. And then I started suggestible, which is a recommendation show with my husband, where we recommend things watch, read and listen to we argue every week, he brings his post apocalyptic style was like, like vibe. And I bring my books written by mainly women, and rom coms, and we kind of like discuss it, he actually, to be fair, he also brings a lot of content made by diverse voices. And he's got a really big depth of knowledge in that space. So it's actually been a beautiful show to do. A lot of people listen with their partners, which has been really beautiful as well and recommend recipes, and that kind of things, that sort of comedy, and recommendations. And then Tonsai began couple of years ago now. And that's my interview show where I look at emotions really. And I talk to people about their stories. I really am interested in women's stories and diverse voices, activists, writers, experts, and thinkers, and deeply feeling humans really. And that's been the biggest joy to create that show. I'm currently working on Season Four at the moment. And interestingly, as I've grown in this space, I've found that I'm now talking more and more about women's health and hormones, interviewing women about chronic stress and how to make it all work as mothers even I interviewed Jane Harper, and that was a thing we talked about for ages, which was how to deal with mother guilt, and the complex nature of all of that stuff. So even the people you think that have it all figured out? Definitely don't. That was a long winded way of saying yes. No, that's fabulous. I love that. So I can breathe easy. I want to making space from me, like where Paul's pie. But what you've done is breaking me down so far. I can't get up. Because you so call now. Just call taunt is obviously like a play on your username tante. Where is that surname from was what's the heritage of that? So yeah, my full surname is Tonti Filippini. But I just shortened it to 20. And then my friends call me Tom. It's been a nickname that's been around for a while. So that's why I use that. I love it. Yeah, my dad didn't tell you. Yeah, cool. And I love that, like what I'm finding through this podcast, it's just so awesome to talk to other people. Like just like I was saying before about, you know, the mother, the mother, musician, like there's all these different worlds. And, like, I'm discovering so much stuff that I never knew before and learning so many things aren't even new and seeing different perspectives. And I guess you'd experienced that too with talking to so many different people. Yeah, absolutely. I've learned so much. I think that now I've released this album called nitro essence, which I started writing at the beginning of last year. And I realized I came to music after long COVID And I was really at my lowest point and I've been speaking and talking to women for a really long time. And by that point, and listening to a lot of different voices and artists and writers and creatives, but not actually really stepping into my identity as an artist, but I think all of that listening and all of those conversations kind of came together for me at that time, and when I couldn't watch TV I couldn't, I was really so depleted after having my second baby during COVID. And also homeschooling and doing all the things that we all did during that time, particularly if you had kids that everyone had their own struggles, and, you know, as musicians and artists as well, it was a really, really challenging time for the industry overall. But yeah, when I got long COVID, and had postnatal depletion, and I really just could parent and rest, I couldn't work and then use it kind of came back into my life, there's a way to listen. And then I developed this cough and as a podcast or a coffee is not very good to have like real coffee feeds. And so I decided to go and get some singing lessons. And I was still telling myself it was just because I had this cough that I needed to figure out. And then very quickly after I started singing lessons with my teacher, Bianca fan, she saw my songwriting, and said, Did you know you're a songwriter? And what are you doing with them. But I do think so many of the songs that came from that place, I took them to her nephew, they heal, and he's a music producer. And initially, it was going to be two songs we'd record and very quickly, it exploded to be 11 songs about I didn't realize what my tresses was at that point. But it was really just about what I was feeling and going through. A lot of those songs are inspired by the people and the women, particularly who I've listened to fake overseas. And I think that's the beauty of podcasting, you get these kind of lovely microcosms of connection with people that you may never speak to otherwise, doing work that you really admire or that you're interested in, you learn so much. And then as an artist, and as a creative, you almost like absorb it or like a sponge, and it sits there somebody in the back of your brain, I always think I have like a spider that lives in the back of my brain collecting things. You know, just like a bow a bird. You don't have a lot of time to like, we wait for the right moon to come out in the sky to like write your beautiful sonnet or whatever. So it just sits there collecting things while I'm busy doing other stuff. And I think for me, it was like 15 years of busy doing other stuff. So when I finally let that spider out, sounds strange, but you know, it was suddenly like, excellent. Here's all these things and all the stuff that you've learned and heard about from other women and also your own journey. So yeah, yeah, podcasting, it's a magic space to be well, I can definitely relate to that. Like, I found that by hearing other people's perspective on their creativity, it allowed me to be a lot more free with mine and not have these, like I'm can be quite a perfectionist and have the standards that things have got to be a particular way, which is good in some respects with my music. But then in other, like my painting, I never thought I could paint or draw because it was it didn't look very good. So that was my thing, I won't do it, because I can't do it sort of thing. And then just, I mean, it sounds really obvious, but there's a lot of different kinds of painting, but because I've never really delved into it, or talk to anyone about it. It just was the one of these things I just didn't do. And just by talking to people and realizing that you can do whatever you want, like, oh, wow, this is great. And so now I enjoy that as part of like, it's almost like a bit of a self care sort of thing, where if I'm processing, you know, as situation or emotions, whatever i i will often just be drawn to the painting side of things. So it's become a really good tool for me, you know, to look after myself and my mental health. So yeah, like, I would never have tried that or done that if I hadn't talked to so many people about it. So that's been really good for me. Yeah. I think that it's so magical. And having that kind of tactile outlet that we've the paint in the color, we can just imagine that would be so soothing. Yeah, and I do really believe deeply that creativity in the arts is a big tool in the toolkit of healing. And I think and particularly matriculants, for those who don't know, is a word that describes the complex transition to motherhood that happens through adolescence, similarly to adolescence. So if we think of hormone to use identity crisis, body changes, social networks change, who we are as a person shifts, the people, the way people see us in the world shifts when we become an adolescent. It's the same in retracements. And I think there's a really powerful way that art and creativity can really help women and people who give birth to move through that transition. And I think in our culture, it's often underrated and undervalued. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it would be it was the last thing I tend to when actually, it was a thing that worked for me. And it's not as tight. You know, obviously, there was diet related changes and medication is also really amazing and going to see medical professionals but yeah, creativity cannot be underestimated for effective. Yeah. Are you watching? Video thing? Yeah, I don't know, more than rolling. Blame news. Five. DNA, me, and just on that, like, the Moto essence has become a word that's very common now, I suppose. And it's only been in the last few years, I think that it's really been something that people talk about and refer to in that way. And I can't feel like, you know, you're talking about the teenager is a similar sort of comparative time with all the changes, like, I feel like we give teenagers a break, like, we say, oh, you know, they're really struggling, because it's this time, you know, the hormones are changing, and we seem to give them a lot of, sort of give them a break. But when it comes to mums that are struggling, it's like, well, that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to have a baby, you know, like, it's, it's almost like suck it up, because that's your body. And like you're a woman, that's what you're supposed to do. So just do it. You know, do you feel like we said, that's not a feeling that is not a culture, it's the culture we live in. And it's not the culture that exists across the globe. I know, for example, in India and in China, and a lot of other traditions Bali have a lot of traditions like this to a woman when she gives birth, particularly for the first time is seen as a newborn, just like a newborn is, there's a phrase the newborn mother that I love, because really you are your child, like you don't know yet what you're doing yet, you don't know how to feed your baby yet you don't know what this new body is even going to look like or what it's going to mean, there's milk coming out your boobs, how did that even happen? And often, even in the lead up, that the word mature essence should be spoken about before women or people who give birth even embark on parenthood. It's so it's a really huge transition to make. And in our culture, we just push women out of the hospital after two days and say figure it out yourself. And you'll be right. And part of it is underfunding. But I also think it's a loss of village. And it's also a lot of and a devaluing of wisdom and knowledge that used to be passed down through generations. And so in those traditions, like there's a beautiful woman who works at our local bookstore, Mira and I went in there with my album, and we were talking and she said, yeah, when I was becoming a mother, my mother moved in with me for 40 days, I wasn't allowed to leave the bed, she brought all the food to me really warming foods cleaned, my house cooked, we had a whole lot of people coming in. All I had to do was feed my baby, and then and then they would put her down. And so she said during the pandemic, she prepared her bags to do that for her own daughter, and then couldn't go because of COVID, which and there's just so many micro mini stories of tragedy through COVID. And but one of the big overarching stories is that all the problems that were there inherent with the lack of care from others, a lack of honoring of their journey, the lack of knowledge around what they actually need, and let me tell you, it's not nurseries and Pinterest boards and special bugaboo prams, it's, it's psychology before they even get to start to become pregnant. It's really knowing themselves. It's understanding they can advocate themselves in the birth for themselves. In the birthing room, they can be in charge of their birth and not handed over to the doctors who technically know best in inverted commas. They know their body, and they know what they need, and should be empowered to know all of their options. So that when they get in there, if there's someone in that room who isn't being supportive of them, they can tell them to eff off. Yeah, yeah. And also then moving from there having postpartum planning. So that's where I hadn't even heard of the word doula when I had my kids. And then I think I thought the word doula was like a boozy thing that maybe Gwyneth Paltrow did in Hollywood. Like, why would you do that? When actually it's just a woman who understands the process of birth and can advocate for you if your partner doesn't know and often, your partner is a bloke and he is just as much in the dark as you are. So having someone there that can also then come and care for you afterwards if you don't have that village support. So all of that is to say that essence was coined in the 1970s by Donna Raphael. And she's an amazing anthropologist, and then brought back in kind of the early 2000s, by early Athan, and she was an academic based in Canada. And she brought that term back, but it's coming back again. And I think it's really because COVID highlighted just how ginormous, the problems are in a culture that doesn't care for mothers and honors them in the way they should be. And now, with this knowledge that I have, I totally get what I went through when I have my kids. And I just think so many women, when they hear that term go, Ah, okay, it wasn't just that I needed to suck it up. And I couldn't hack it. And, you know, I couldn't be that perfect mother and I was good. I thought I'd love it every minute. And I did in all conversely, I love it, but I'm different to who I was. And maybe my friendships look different, and my body looks different. And this understanding that I think he's powerful, I will say as well. And I wonder if you resonate with this that just like some people went through adolescence, and we're bloody great at it, like just knew what to wear. You had to go to I don't know, neither right parties to go to seem to have less glamorous photos of them, you know, just by party. Love. Yeah, really rocky adolescence, like, very awkward times, terrible outfits, incredibly nerdy. And I love that girl now so much, because I think she was so unique and weird and great and kooky and wrote a lot of poetry and just thought didn't know who she was in. Glorious. But I just think that's the same for women, like, go through retracements and love it, and some are gonna struggle on it's a huge spectrum. And then on the other end of it is a question I've been asking a lot I don't have an answer to and I'm not an expert. I'm just a mother and a musician with my stories. But what is a same reaction to a really difficult time in your life in contrast, and so what's a very difficult for tresses versus what is clinical diagnosis of postnatal depression or psychosis, and things that need medical intervention. And I think it's a really gray area. And something I've been speaking to professionals about now. And I'm interested to talk more about on my podcast because I think some of the rocky part of that early motherhood is just like, of course, you find these hard because it is bloody hard. But then there's also a line there, when is it appropriate? And medication and other options are very fast. So like Coca Cola in summer like soap is a pattern no matter what though, as your last flowers in bloom found the blue love if you don't become an ambassador for Coke, and also the Gidget foundation. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm really passionate about letting women and people out there know about their services. So cope has an amazing e directory where you can put in your postcode, and it will show you all of the services available in your area for whatever you need in that early parenthood, Merit Peri natal space. And lots of research. There's also a great app that you can download on your phone. So you can do screening for postnatal depression, privately, rather than having to go to a maternal health nurse necessarily. And there's wonderful maternal health nurses too, but can often be very confronting, and sometimes you feel a bit judged. And so doing that privately is great. So Koch is amazing. And the Gidget Foundation, have free counseling available online. So you can call a number and speak to someone immediately, as do Canada. And I would really encourage anyone listening to this to suspect they have a friend who's struggling a family member who's struggling, if they're struggling, it doesn't matter how long ago you had your baby, either. That or whatever you went through in the kind of perinatal mental health space, those surfaces and services are available. So anyway, I keep giving you very long winded answers. No, it's really good. Because you say you, you there's so many points you've raised, and I keep writing them down to come back to which is it's cool. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that. And that's really cool that you're you're an ambassador for them because I feel like I was actually talking to someone yesterday, and I can't even think who they were this is really bad when you talk to so many people. It all runs around in your head but it's same thing like I hacked back to my days of 15 years ago, prenatal class was basically teaching you how to watch a video of a natural birth. Just to freak you out a bit more and to scare all the dads. And basically the extent of you know, they taught you how to change a nappy, they gave you hints on settling, which were one of them was run your baby's pram over, like a lump on the floor, like, and I was like, Okay, now I realize how dumb that is. Sorry, not dumb, unhelpful. Some of it was. And the they got a guy to come and talk from Beyond Blue. And all I remember from him, was saying, I It's good going to be a bit rough. Yeah, so good luck with that. Like, I literally remember him saying, so good luck with that. And I just thought afterwards when, like, this is the culture of what you're giving mothers, this is what this is normal to give mothers and yeah, looking back on that I think my God, no one has struggled and just about lost it, you know. But the other thing you said, too, and I was actually thinking that the same thing when you were talking about it about the fine line, or the difference between just having a really crappy experience in that mattress since period? Or when does it get to that point of that, you know, needing medical intervention or whatever. And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, Wow, that sounds like my first experience. With my first son. I kept saying, like, my husband said to me, I reckon you've got that thing. They taught to be able to impregnate a class and like, No, I don't, I don't have postnatal depression, I'm just having a bad day, you know, and everything I could justify, I could say all night, just because I had a bad sleep all night. It's just because he didn't sit or, you know, I was telling myself these stories. And I even managed to slip through the cracks with the nurse that come round to and did like one of those cute hands or whatever. They are like the screener. You know, have you felt like this? Like, oh, I think it was like every day for the past two weeks. I was like, No, I haven't not for the past two weeks. But it's been a lot of days. But because I didn't meet those criteria. I was like, see, I have fun. So yeah, I didn't like that. There's still a lot to be said for that sort of intervention as well. But I wonder if that was it was just a really difficult period. And then because I had the next one there seven years between my kids for that reason of harrowing, not the greatest start, but I got really bad postnatal depression, and I was medicated and and almost hospitalized. But we didn't do that, because I wouldn't have been able to keep breastfeeding. So yeah, you sort of wonder if that first experience had have been a little more positive and more like sort of picked up by professionals or whatever that are maybe could have avoided the second one. I don't know. I'm so sorry, Alison. I mean, I had a really, it's so hard. Yeah. And do you know what I think too, I think we have to really kind to ourselves, because like with each baby, it's a new start of matriculants each time. Yeah. Which I don't think people say that you think I've had one? So the second one easy, I've done it like I'm warning, you know, right out. There's a difference between having no, it's not. And then the difference between having one and two is massive. And so and for each woman, it's really different, or each person I should say especially and I'm just so sorry, that happened to you, I think it's much more common than we think. And I know now, the rates are even higher from COVID. And I do think that this system is just failing women emotionally and spiritually, particularly, I think it's really undervalued just how important it is to really care from others. And that caring that needs to begin in the early part of your life really, before you even start to have kids and then through the transition in the hospital setting and then afterwards, and then the spaces that are okay to for you to actually be able to talk about how you feeling I agree. I I suspect I had postnatal but it went undiagnosed for that reason, because it was like, Are you feeling like this everyday? Well, no, not really. And also, you've asked me so many questions about my baby and he wasn't putting on weight and he had really bad reflux and I was advocating so much to him. I felt so scared that they would be like, well, she's a bad mother. She's not doing well. He's not putting on weight. And now she's like, What feeling like this and you just feel like you can't be honest. And even if you are honest, what support is there for you? Yeah, you know, is really, really super challenging. But I think the first step is talking to someone about it and having someone on the phone I think I didn't know at the time. That for me having someone to reach out to on the phone who's like a qualified counselor who can talk to you? And they're not, you know, without judgment where you can be honest and yeah, and all that stuff and just being real about the fact that Yeah, it's really hot. Yeah. Was like, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine having another child. Like, I just kept seeing myself in difficult situations. Like when I think about having a baby, it was all native. And that went on for, you know, almost seven years. Like it was just, I couldn't get past that. It was bizarre. Yeah. But now I've gotten two of them. And it's wonderful. Yeah. As I've gotten older, how old are they now? So 15 and nearly eight. So yeah, it's, I wouldn't recommend seven years age gap, if you're deliberately thinking of age gaps. They get on they get on well, at different times, depending on who's in charge, or who wants to do a particular thing. Because they are, you know, completely different places in their lives can be a little tricky. But I think the older that. Digby, my youngest, the older he gets, the easier it been for them to get on. Well, I think it's probably a fair thing to say. I'm ready to be given a find a flat by car. Taken. No one knows me here. That's what I was trying to say about who I was speaking to yesterday, that when were when we're thinking of becoming parents, and like you were saying, you think about what pram you're gonna get and what, you know, making your Pinterest board to make your nursery really beautiful. It's like, that should be like the last thing we do like that. It should be ingrained in our culture that you you search up, you have the support services in your phone, you know, you know, where you're gonna go, if you need help you have people who are going to make food for you all, you know, all this sort of stuff. It's, it's the after the birth stuff, when your home that you need the help with, it's the lady I spoke to yesterday, Mary, she said, she had this beautiful nursery in this beautiful car, and the baby never went in the car. She ended up giving it away. So yeah, I feel like I mean, I guess capitalism and commercialism drives that need for things to be new and pretty imperfect, and whatever, and this Instagram world where everything's got to look really good. But you know, getting back to the basics of actually caring for each other. And actually, I'm crapping on a fair bit now, but, but what I was what I noticed, when you were talking about the culture, I'm sorry, I can't remember what culture it was, but the lady you knew from your bookshop, and that basically, all she had to do is feed her baby nurse the baby, and then they'd even settle it and do everything else. And when I was in the worst throes of my postnatal depression, that was literally all I could do, I would feed him and give him back to my husband, and he would do everything else with him. So it was like, I was putting myself in that position without even you know, consciously realizing, I just needed so much help. And I was just, that was all I was capable of, and I couldn't even see myself leaving my bedroom. I had to be in my bed. You know, it was like this safe cocoon. So yeah, I was creating without even knowing I was creating that environment. Which is really, yeah. So interesting to hear. How did that change for you? But over the trajectory? Was there a point where you started to feel like I've got a handle on this, now I'm starting to heal. It took a while, like, we have, I mean, a regional town in my Gambia in South Australia. So we don't have a huge amount of services. But again, I didn't know they were there till I needed them. So it was this scramble, you know, when you need it, it's like, oh, my gosh, Googling things and whatever. But I was pleasantly surprised that we do actually have more services than I thought. So I had a a mental health nurse who would come over and just sit with us. And she wouldn't say anything. She was just there. And I got really familiar. My I think my husband, he found it a bit tricky, because he wasn't, you know, obviously he was in a different mental state than me. So he found it a bit weird that this lady was just sitting in our lounge room with us, but I really liked his, she was just there and she'd observe us and if I if I wanted to talk about things I could, and if I didn't want to, you know, she was just there and so I had her come on. For many weeks, and then one day, she said to me, I don't think I don't think you need me anymore. Because she said, she could just see the change in me physically, you know, from the first time she'd met me to, you know how I was interacting with the baby. And, you know, I was laughing a bit more, not just my demeanor had changed. And I was medicated pretty early on. So you know, you have that period of time, like, you know, three or four weeks for that to kick into your system. So that was a bit horrible. But yeah, if months, I guess my husband slept in the baby's room in a in a single bed, probably for about six months, I reckon, because I just couldn't bear the night times, they were the worst, because that was where all my triggers were when my previous baby was just being in the dark with a baby was just like, the worst thing I could imagine. So he took all that away from me. Yeah. And then one day said, Oh, do you reckon you reckon you might like to have a go or the way he said it? It was like a really kind way. It wasn't like, yeah, it was almost like a playful way. Like, do you think you might like to try and see how you go? I was like, God, not yet. No, not yet. It was sort of like no. But yeah, eventually. Yeah. So within the first year, I was back to relative normality. In my mental wellness, I think, what was it about the dark and babies that night? I think it was because I couldn't I had a lot of trouble settling him. And when I'd get him settled, he, he would wake up really easily. So it was like I felt trapped in there. I think it was like that. I'm in the dark. I'm by myself, like, no one else is helping me and I'm stuck here with this baby sort of thing. It was almost like a like I was Yeah. Yeah, like I was not abandoned. But I was the one that had to do it. And no one else was going to help me. sort of thing. Yeah. And yeah, it was horrible. And even in the daytime, he'd only sleep for 45 minutes. And, you know, to my detriment, I was reading this book that said, you know, you've got to get him to sleep for an hour and a half, blah, blah, blah. And so I'd be sitting in there in the dark, just patting and shushing, and patting his shushing, and this kid was ready to get up. But all the book told me I have to have to get him back to sleep. So in with my second child, are just like, I'm just going to do whatever the hell this kid wants, you know, like, he was just like, he's, he knows what he wants in his life, he wants to get up, he's gonna get up, just, you know, I just went in a completely different, completely different way. And I had a lot of time to think about it. So I had like, this list that I'd made, of all the things that I do differently. And I was actually just talking about this the other day to about and it wasn't necessarily practical things it was about myself, you know, like, don't be hard on yourself. It's doesn't matter if the house isn't clean. It's not a reflection on you how often the baby sleeps. And I was like, it doesn't matter if he has formula or if he's breastfed like it was all about taking the pressure off myself, basically. Because that's how I think I'd build up the first one, that it was all about me, I had to do everything I had to breastfeed him. You know, it was this real martyr sort of mentality, which wasn't very nice. Yeah. And do you know what the breastfeeding thing so I really struggled with breastfeeding. And I had been told by our hospital, like classes that you know, all women can breastfeed, some just can't have the pain. It's the only best way, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I remember writing it down. So I would play with such an a kind of a like, student, I was like making my little notes and being like, well, of course, I've run long distances, I know how to push through things, I'll be fine. And when it didn't work, no one said to me, formulas, fine. No one said, actually take the pressure off. A happy mom is much better for your baby than a mum that's struggling to breastfeed in an extraordinary amount of pain. And then, remember, the advice I got was, well, what you need to do is just keep on feeding. I remember calling like the breastfeeding hotline, and they'd be like, well, you're bleeding. You just keep feeding through that. And then you're not getting much milk. So what you need to do is feed the baby then you need to express and pomp and then you need to go and give them a top up a formula, because they're not putting on weight, then will weigh them all the time, like every day coming to the hospital. And because he vomited so much, he wasn't putting on weight anyway. But then I would be basically given advice, just not to sleep. But really, because by the time you do that, do it. You're not sleeping like what did that takes two hours, and then you're feeding them every two hours because they want you to increase their weight. And so I remember doing the same thing when I went to have my daughter and she's three my son's seven and she's three. I wrote myself a note because your hormones change so much. So you think you're going to be this rational person that you are before you have your baby. And during your pregnancy. You're pretty rational for me as soon as you have the baby It all kind of goes out the window. And remember, I'm reading my note to myself that said, you are doing this for two weeks. If it's not working, your formula is perfectly fine. And your baby will be perfectly fine. And I'm so glad I did that, because I did I just against their medical advice, because they like, I remember that this beautiful pediatrician was like, Well, yeah, you can actually stop. But like, don't tell anyone that I told you that you can stop breastfeeding. What total bullshit, like, everybody is unique. Everyone's baby's unique, you are unique. If someone had said that, to me that like just like some women are great at yoga, other women produce so much milk, they come back and feed a whole village. And you like I one of the women that probably in the village who's out organizing the fields, because you don't like sitting still. And so someone else would have fed your baby. Like, it's fine. Just like some women, it's just like all of us are unique. And even the relationship I didn't realize is that some babies have a different shape now to the nipple of the woman. And so there was just no way that they'd be able to feed because the baby has to come to the party just like you do, not to mention whatever you went through during your birth. And if you had a huge impact, and then also the way that you burst now I know can have an effect on your afterbirth and your motor presence because of the type of hormones and whether there was an interruption there, whether you had trauma from that, whether you were low in iron, all of that goes into milk production. And so there's just so it's so we're so mean, in a way the system feels me Yeah, yeah. And Jaggi. And yeah, like you're doing it wrong. Don't call me. And I'm actually interested in your perspective on this. This is not something that I have read in a study, it's just a gut feeling that I have full caveat. I'm a very creative person. I'm really great at a lot of things, talking music, writing, doing things that scare other people. Bloody Great. Admin, cleaning, turning off on time, total garbage. Fire on a calendar can't clean the fridge. Yeah, tell you the bloody I don't know, whatever day it is, I don't know, half the time. So like I have the skill set. But the other type of skill set for motherhood, I'm real shitter. And I think now excuse my language, I'm starting to progress. But now as I get all that, and my kids are getting older, I have the skill set that I think is really suited to that. But a lot of the baby stuff is like routine, and resting and staying still all the time, and not sleeping that much. And then like being at home in the same place doing the same thing every single day over and over again. And I wonder too, if you're a highly creative person who also needs that creativity to feel fill you up and feel like you and the excitement and adrenaline of new experiences. Motherhood rock can rob you of that. And I I wonder whether that's a piece of it to that as creatives and I think we're all designed to be creative, but highly sort of creative people with that scratching their head that needs to be etched because they constantly have to make stuff. Yeah, that I wonder whether that was a piece of it too. Huh. That's really interesting. I can totally resonate with what you're saying about cleaning. I seriously I just sometimes it's just not even on my radar. I don't even think about it. Because I'm just thinking of doing things. And I don't know. And then I think shivers, look at that carpet probably could do with a vacuum. But then do I go do it? Probably not straightaway. But you know what I mean? It's like your brain doesn't live in practical land, it lives in, I don't know, this different thing, which is finding their bodies. And also unique and special and great. And I think part of this struggle. I've written a song on my album called this mother thing which speaks into this fact the Lyric, will you go but also say will you grow but also never change? Tiny lungs, tiny beating hearts. This mother thing is full of scars. And it's kind of this idea that as a creative, I just constantly want to be left to my own devices to get weird and make it and get excited about the world. But then also I love my kids and I want them to be with me as well. And I'm constantly in this state of juggling of how do I make being a mother and a creative work. And actually I I think part of it is, we need if you are someone that has that creative urge all the time, and you're not great at cleaning, like, we actually have a cleaning, which I know is a real privilege, but also is the probably the thing that saves me parenting, because I just otherwise, it's just a disaster. And so I now see my cleaner as part of our company, as an employee, really, and I would keep for all go many things before I let them go. Really, life which is employed, which I know is a real privilege, and not everyone has access to that. But I but what I will say is having someone and speaking to Mira from my bookstore, in a village context, you would have so many other people around to do those kinds of chores and jobs for you that the light the load is lighter. And even I'm not surprised that having a mental health nurse come and sit with you was the thing that helped is really human beings are designed to be in community and with each other. And if you just had someone else with you during those night times, who can just say it's okay, you're doing a great job, and sit down and he's a cuppa, like, not even do anything just be around. I just think some people and I think most of us as humans, we just want connection we want community, which is what we were designed to have and modern lives in our particular Western Australian context, just a really detrimental for our heads and our hearts. And as mothers, you know, like I was speaking to a woman on PBS who was telling me in Ghana, where she grew up. Like she just didn't have any identity loss as a mother because everyone was she had like aunties, uncles, cousins, brothers, Little Kids, Big kids, people were around and everyone's breastfeeding together. And she'd seen women give birth around her for a long time. So it wasn't this like hidden experience. It's same with death. Death is hidden here. But it's not in other cultures. It's a part of everything. You know, like her grandparents were buried in her front garden. You know, it's like that kind of thing, which I'm not suggesting we do. But I guess what I mean is like our humanity, our ability to be present and alive in the world and understand what motherhood really means. It is, shouldn't be something that we wait to experience until we're eight and a half months pregnant. It should be like, we're breastfeeding with 10 other women, and you've seen it happen so much. And if it doesn't work for you, there's another woman there cannot who actually could feed your baby or can tell you, your nipples. We're not it's probably not going to happen to you. Let's get you some formula. You'll be fine. You know? Exactly. Yeah. Normalizing that experience. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you're talking about the breastfeeding before, that was something that my first child that I was just like, I have to do this. I remember sitting at the table, my kitchen table, and my mom was there. And I was just in tears, because I couldn't get this kid to attach properly. And I pushed through eventually things got better. And I fed him for a long time. But it was like I had this, this ridiculous, controlling thing that I had to do it. And my husband was like, Oh, do you want me to just go get some formula. I was like, No, don't get the formula. I'm doing it. Like it was just irrational, basically. So then, with my second one, one of my things was like, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't doesn't matter if he has formula, you know, 30 is best that was the thing I was telling myself not breast is best Fed is best doesn't matter how you baby gets fed. And just by a stroke of luck, I suppose not lucky for him. But when he was born, he was very, very small. And he was born by like, emergency severe. And so that's where sort of all all the started. So he was in one of those little humidity crib things, which I've been calling a hot box for a long time, but it actually has a name that I just referred to the baby in the Hotbox. So because he was in there, and he was away from me a bit. They just gave him formula. And I was like, this is fantastic. That's out of my hands. Now I haven't made this decision, you know, the pressures off me. It was just wonderful. You know, like, it was bad that he was in there. But you know what I mean? It was just the best thing that happened to me like, he couldn't live without me. Yeah, and that means that you can get some sleep. And if you're someone that does need a lot of sleep and you're not enjoying breastfeeding, or it's hard or you don't have enough milk or a million other things, some women who take medication they need to have means they can't breastfeed. Some women have had mastectomy is like there's just like a million different reasons why you might not need you might not be able to breastfeed. And it's just not that big a deal. And obviously in an ideal world, like there are lots and lots of benefits to breastfeeding. I'm not saying there aren't there are heaps and if it had worked for me, that would have been wonderful, but this idea that somehow we need to guilt mothers about it and be so hard and I said I think that paste, I'm so passionate about women being kind to themselves in. Because I think that's where so much of this stat is. And it's not an accident because culture is hard on us, then we are so hard on ourselves. And then we compare and think about what it should be. And if my friend can't breastfeed, but that's fine for her. But no, no, no, I must have these ridiculously high standards for myself. And I think also, something I write about in my songs self. So one of the lines that song talks about, I think birth trauma, which is what I experienced, and I'm assuming you had some deaths from the to from your story. So part of is that and actually one in three women, I think the statistic in Australia at the moment experience birth trauma form, which is a giant. Yeah, and it speaks into like, then the mental health outcomes for that flow on from there. And there's lots of reasons as to why that might be the case. And part of it is the system. There's lots of things that are broken. But that song self talks about that. The first line is a woman at the start broken open now thinking that shields fail, you can hold your own damn self, your self can still prevail. I remember being told it won't hurt. Miracle can push through the pain, but I'm bleeding, just try harder. And you should be better at it all. Here, take take all this shame. And to me that feeling of shame, and failure, and you should be better, why can't you do it was at the crux of so much that I struggled with in those early days of motherhood and it wasn't just what I was putting on myself. It was the culture that I gave birth in and then some of the midwives and the doctors that I came up against who was so dismissive of me and my needs and judgmental when I couldn't make what I thought you know, what I thought was gonna happen happen with the breastfeeding piece I just think there's there's just so much room for so much compassion, knowledge and education around all of it. And love I think we need to put love back in okay occasion this love this that's a really good point. And when you were talking about that judgment of, of medical professionals, like, this kindness, this compassion, like, it's like, I know they deliver babies every day, like they've done millions of them, whatever. But in that moment, you need a person that's gonna have your back and gonna support you like, I Sorry, I'm gonna get emotional but when the worst the thing that really now this isn't my podcast, this is your episode. But when when we arrived at a hospital to have Digby, the second one, the midwife that greeted us her first words to us, what are your late you were told to be here for an early induction. Why? Why weren't you here? And it's like, I just I almost burst into tears right then, because I have this thing. Just before like, the few days before I have a baby. I get really anxious. Like, oh my God, my life is gonna change. Oh my god, how's this gonna get out of me? Like all those big things. And on the way in the car, I was just so anxious, like both my boys have been induced. So I knew it was coming. You know, I had this time to build myself up into this frenzy of anxiousness. So when she said that I was just like, oh my god, really? Like I'm already feeling so vulnerable. And so yeah, vulnerable and she just spiked bang. And then she just kept going. It was like, Oh, he's in there waiting for you. It was like, Oh, my God, like, seriously, you're going to speak to me like this. Like I started I got really like, we're I was really upset. But I sort of tried to hold it together. And then she said something else about she wanted a a urine sample. And she just handed me the thing and just points that one just goes going there. I was like, oh my god, seriously, like it was just, I sat on the toilet and I burst into tears. And I just thought that she's not going to do this, like this is not okay. And I went back out there and I thought, okay, I can either tell her as I want a new midwife or I can just try and make peace with this woman, whatever's happened in her morning like she's bringing this to us. You know, it's obviously, you know, things aren't going well for this lady. So I basically walked out there and I put my hand on her shoulder and I said, Look, can we just start again? place. And she just took a massive sigh and she just sort of went like this. Like if she realized I think what she what she'd been doing. And she was totally different from that point. Apart from pride at the end, where we went for the urgency Cesar and she went and stood next to the wall like I can literally see an hour I'm pointing it was at the wall stood at the side of the wall with a back to the wall and just left me to it. And I was so afraid. And so like, because they'd already stuffed up my epidural. So I could still feel my contractions on one side of my body, he put it up too high. And so my at one point, my lungs, like my breathing was compromised. All these sort of, you know, stuff was happening. So I didn't trust that they were going to get this beat, right? Like I was in fear that I was going to feel everything that was my biggest fear. And so they were like, holding like a bag of ice on me. Can you feel that? And I said, I can feel the pressure, like Piglet, but can you feel cold? Like they were like, not attacking me, but they were like, Can you feel that sort of thing? It's like, but I can I can feel you touching me am I supposed to feel that, you know, I was there using their medical terms. And I'm using my like, and I can feel you touching me. So I was just in total fear. And thank God, this beautiful, amazing theater nurse came over and she held my hand and she stroked my head and she said, I know you're scared, it's going to be okay, we're all here to help you. And I burst into tears because like thank god, somebody cares for me sort of thing. You know, it was, again, maybe they've got themes of abandonment and stuff going on. But somehow I needed someone to help me. And she was amazing. And that entire that entire Severian I could obviously feel them pulling and whatever. But I laid there in fear because any second now I thought, I'm going to feel something really painful. Like I was just so afraid. Plus officer I was afraid for my child because he's, you know, he had to be gotten out quickly. Yeah, just this this kindness, kindness and compassion. And even you know, people mean well, but like, in my sister and I both talked about this, like nurses that had come in to help you breastfeed or whatever. What are you doing that for here? Or what's wrong here? What's wrong today, but just the language they use? I was in tears at some point because some woman just looked at me and said, What's the matter with you today? And I was like, Whoa, like just sent me off. Like, you know, you're so vulnerable when you read the you know, you feel like every nerve endings exposed and everything is going to set you off and then someone says something so off the cuff and they don't mean anything by it. But you just lose it. It's like they don't know that you know, they don't see that they're everything they do has an impact on us at that time. So yeah, compassion love caring after all, oh, sorry. Sorry for that experience. And I hope you leave the scene because I owe more stories that we can share my tears now. I know it's hard on it tell you that shame isn't your to hold your body this way let it sink in. Beautiful. They may see your beautiful, wonderful you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I will certainly do you know what I know now having spoken to a lot of women in this space, and there's a podcast episode I did with a friend of mine, Kim Beale, who's a woman client physio, and she does birth preparation and lots of things. She said one of the number one things to indicate that you're going to have a good birth is feeling safe. Because when you think about a cat, they will go under the house in a really dark warm spot. It's really enclosed. It's very quiet, in order for your body to do the things that it actually needs to do and it naturally should do. You need to feel so safe and your body needs to know that you're safe. It's not even just your mind. It's your body as an entity needs to breathe that safety and that calmness. And it's so fragile and precarious. So if you have a person like I had a woman when I went into labor and I started singing into the pain, I was told to shut up get back on the bed, you'll exhaust you Stop making that noise. Oh my god. Yeah. And I now know that singing into contractions. If you're a music person, or just anyone that has that vibration is perfect. It's perfect for opening new opening your cervix allowing for you did give the and I just think that even just that interruption let alone how that woman spoke to you and I had other interactions with her, of course your body when you're already anxious, and then your body is supposed to open. Of course things are gonna go right not to mention intervention and sometimes intervention is necessary. But there's so much research showing that if you intervene early, then things are more likely to be more painful, like with inductions and things I was induced to. And things just cascade and having that power and the knowledge that you need to set up this birth space for you. In however that looks however weird, you might think it is particularly as a creative being. Like I think about what I like and need when I'm making music. When I'm in my zone. I didn't think about my birth like that. I thought about it like a medical procedure, when actually I needed some weird and wonderful dark space with like insane music and candles and like, really cool witchy women in with me. So I could sing my way through it, you know, and it happened with my daughter. But by that point, I'd had such a sort of difficult birth injury for my son, that I had a planned cesarean with her because I just couldn't envision having lifelong or worse injuries and I already had with him. And in hindsight now I kind of wish that I had been able to have a birth where I felt I could sing her into the world. And it still breaks my heart. Because she's a singer she already singing. As a three year old, my son is so creative too. And I I get so sad thinking that I could have sung her into the hook her very first sign of life was this vibration. And I also think that's not my fault. And it's not something that I'm just I'm sad about. And I think it's important to acknowledge you can feel sad, but not beat yourself up about it. You're stuck in a system that isn't designed for you. And so I'm sorry, that experience happened to you too. So sorry. And I also feel like for other women going forward for my daughter, I'm just so passionate that she can find if she decides to have kids. If my little boy decides to have kids like that they've got all this knowledge they're armed with so that it may not go the way you plan in Him there will say that in that tonight's episode, like it may still go awry, you may still end up with an emergency subject to them. But if you've got this kind of birth map, where you know from the outset, right, when I get in there, these are the people that are going to be there, I know them and they know me, they care about me. That's a big one. They really care about me, whoever they are whoever they look like, if they're a midwife, I've known for years for my pregnancy, if they're a friend who's also human birth, who's going to make me feel safe. But then if things go wrong, these are all the different things that will happen. Because then if you feel in control and educated, you're less likely I was terrified to go I had surgery afterwards. And that fear of you just not trusting that they will do the right thing. And that's smart, because they hadn't didn't do the right. They stuffed up your you know, Fe juror which happened to a friend of mine to hers fell out of her back. And no one believed her. They said we put it in you can't be feeling anything, you know, like that. There's also inherent misogyny in the system that stems from that Christian Christianity really and that idea that Eve was cursed in childbirth. And so from that point on, you can see that in the medical profession, that women's pain overall is just less acknowledged less believed. The babies as well for my son's reflux. It took me six months to get a diagnosis. They just don't believe you weird, a particular and they think like endometriosis, all of these different conditions. I speak to another naturopath called Freya, Lola, about endo and chronic stress and hormones. I'm just so passionate that women get as much information not only about their birth, but also about menopause. How we go through our birth will affect how we menopause, about how we integrate our hormones, about the changes in our bodies and how our hormones fluctuate how to care for and eat better. So that when we do have these hormonal changes when we enter perimenopause, which I didn't even know it feedback. So that we write that we know why we feel rage, why we feel exhaustion, why we feel brain fog and how to eat and exercise around those things. And part of it is bringing our stress levels down, thinking about what our life looks like, and whether it's actually sustainable in its current form. It's there's so much care and knowledge that needs to be put back in that we used to have that's been taken from us. Even talking about periods and all that stuff without shame. Like, I just think it's just so important. And I think podcasting is a great medium for that, too, during having these discussions, because, and having like, What are you talking about your birth like that? I'm so hopeful there's someone listening to these studies and midwife or a doctor or an obstetrician or someone in the hospital setting, because I have found that with telling my story and my songs now that I do, and I did a live show over the weekend, where I did the same thing. Because so many of the women I've met since who are midwives on maternal health nurses have said to me, yes, I can imagine exactly who that woman was that Pat said that to you. I've met her I've met someone like her. But also, it's a great reminder for us, because we are just ticking boxes, we're going through the motions, we're exhausted, we're tired, we're underfunded and devalued. And so like that woman you met, you've had her she's lived her whole life before she's got there. And so being reminded that for each woman that comes in this is life or death, for her that view, it might be the seventh woman you've seen for the day, and how precarious and fragile, and in need of love and care we are in those spaces and, and allowing us to bring the love of the people in our lives, if we're lucky enough to have them into that room, or at least the people that we'd like to be there and not just thinking it's a purely medical thing. Because I think that would have made a difference. And at So, anyway, gosh, how did we get to here? But no, I have got a couple of medical people that listen. And there's one midwife in particular, who often will message me after some episodes, and be like, suggest, they'll suggest the name of maybe the doctor that I talked about, or someone they know, like, we're anywhere relatively smallish. I mean, we're not a small town, but we're a small regional center. So most people know who people are. So you know, if you're listening, Yvonne Hi. Hello. And I will say as well, through this work I've been doing taking this album around the kind of like that. So So for example, on Sunday, at the Wesleyan, there was this old pub, it was it used to be a church, and they've made this kind of bandroom we had candles everywhere. And all these women came it was so incredible. And just like midwives and maternal health nurses, women who are physios and women who are interested in birth, women who are just moms who've, like had a rough trot or just brought their mother's group along. And then there were couples that came in. We had Lauren Beatty, who's a psychologist who now runs these sessions called maternal journal, which are bringing mothers into circle to journal and make basically a very experiences. And so she spoke about the treatments. And then I played my story and my songs. And we all crying, it was like a pack sold out roots. So completely happened. Still wild to me. But just the feeling that people kept said to me afterwards, I feel lighter, I feel seen, I feel connected. I feel like so many other women in my life are going through something that I didn't know that well, their birth story, they told me in a kind of funny way, but now I actually understand how traumatic it was for them. And I noticed when the show finished, rather than people leaving, they all sat for ages having a glass of wine, just like laughing and talking. Yeah, that's that. That's really I mean, starting to do regional shows now because I do think women in regional areas, from what I've heard from you too much more isolated in lots of ways. And I did did one in yackandandah. And when in my whaler recently, I'm doing another one in ships. And I'm just really passionate now about taking the show on the road. going make women cry all over the country. All alone out. There but really, it's that meeting of all of the professionals in the space and the women who have cared for them, by them kind of connecting and bringing empathy back in and understanding. Can you come down here plates? genuinely love? Yes, seriously? Seriously? They will be. We have to talk about that after. Totally. I'm actually planning a show in Newcastle. And I'm thinking about going to the Northern Rivers, planning little adventures. I'm actually also been invited to go to the UK would leave it in Chile, so no oh my god for two weeks. I'm going over there with Amy Taylor to bad season. Oh, yeah. I know, she reminded me I know. You're gonna go play music to women in the UK and Ireland, and Scotland. And just for two weeks, I'm taking my music producers EQs 30 is like big burly biker tats. He's like, gonna play music with me. And he's a lot of fun. So very special. But yeah, let's talk. I would love that. Yes. Now, I've just realized that I haven't asked you about your children. Here are kids. I have to one of these three, my daughter and then my son is eight. He'll be eight in October. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I think coming to England, are you having a child, I'm going on my own. So I talked about lucky. He's amazing. And also, we just co parented from the very beginning, we have lucky like that we both worked from home in the company together. So he's probably a better parent means always. He's much more routines and like, he's great. So I'm very, very lucky to have that. And also family support to so yeah. A long time need to be away. But how and how are you feeling about that? But one of the topics that and I'm not wondering, like leading you into this to say that you have to feel this way. But I'm just linking it together, that we have, we have this thing called mum guilt in our society, unfortunately. Are you feeling you know, apprehensive about going or leaving them? Because you're going to do something that doesn't involve them? Or you'd like, Yes, I'm going, Okay, this people put up here, we're going to turn the podcast off. Once I save you know, that guilty in the beam. In the beam, I have huge amounts of guilt about a lot of things over time I was raised Catholic, it's part of it, the guilty, giant, giant guilt. And so but what happened to me over the past couple of years speaking to a woman after woman person after person was I started to hear this guilt month or guilt being like of the wanting to be with them, but wanting to be a way that this mother thing some speaks into this constant struggle. And I just realized, I ran hard at this creative project last year, for the first time in my life, I prioritize my work over my husband's, I prioritized it over a lot of other admin things and cleaning, and I just threw myself into it with as much gusto as I possibly could. Partly to save myself, I think because I was at such a low point, that was the thing that brought me back into myself. And what I've realized is, I thought, my kids would a suffer hate me, I'm the worst parent, everyone's gonna think I'm a terrible mother, all of this stuff. And that was my greatest fear in doing that. And so I didn't do it for a very long time. But what was kind of interesting about throwing myself into this work and creating something I'm so proud of is that, like, my son started drawing me for the first time, he usually draws like Pokemon transformers, and sometimes he's dead. And it's dead. There I am. Front and center in his drawings is a big heart on my chest with me standing on a stage. And he sees me as a person, not only as his mum, which is a really special thing. I know. Also, I'm privileged to have a partner who is on board, and I trust completely with all of it. That part of doing that was also writing down the list of everything I was doing for the mental load. So there's been a lot of layers, but it didn't happen overnight. The guilt in the beginning, like a lifelong process, will probably backstory, who knows, but I sat down with him. And I wrote down everything that I did in our lives, like I did the admin for our company, I facilitated so much of his creative work. Plus all the kids stuff. I wrote it down from the get go in my new detail, for example, uniforms. What size are they where to buy them from? How much are they? How many pairs? Like, yeah, he did the same. And I thought maybe it would be when we looked in. It was so powerful to see though that because he thought it was equal really, he's a one he's so aware and maybe that he could finally see all of the things and now I don't micromanage anything anymore. He takes on board like so many things. And I it's not a boss employee relationship. It's a Boss Boss. So he'll be like the vaccination did you I booked the GP appointment or the kids, this person's going to a party and I bought the present, I'm going to drive them, it's on Sunday at 10 o'clock. Like, that enabled me to fully expand into this credit project. And so the mother guilt thing, I just don't think serves us, I just don't think guilt is a is a helpful emotion. I think rage is, I think love is I think empathy is I think compassion is I think being critical, in a way, particularly in your art are like self critical. But in a way that's like I would call it as when I was a primary school teacher, being a critical friend, you know, like being real with yourself about like, what you could improve on. But the guilt thing doesn't help anyone. So I'm still going to do it anyway. So or what am I going to do spend the whole time feeling bad about the fact that I'm enjoying myself, like, get in the bin, that it would say, I love these, this idea of tempering joy, and I grew up doing this a lot that like I can enjoy this too much. Because something bad will happen? Or what if this happens, or like seeing your kids asleep? And you're like, Oh, this is beautiful. What if they die? You know, like, Oh, I do like to fail them? You know, like, yeah, we tempering our joy, but it doesn't actually change the outcome. So now I'm trying as best I can mangle in the been fully running towards the creative project that I get to do feeling bloody lucky and privileged that I'm getting to make it knowing that I think it's important to me as a human, for my kids and for my daughter to see me making and doing and being a full happy person. And oh, well if they go to school and their uniform labels peeling a bit. And I know they've had to forage around the back of the cupboard for some biscuits put in their lunchbox, so be it. Yeah, oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it, isn't it. And that this whole, I don't know that what we're trying to do, of breaking that cycle and changing this patriarchal society and all these things we've talked about with health care and mental wellness and things like it has to start somewhere. And if we keep showing their kids, that what we're doing is okay, and acceptable, then they'll just keep doing it in their next generation. So we have to make the changes, and we have to let the kids see the changes. Because kids will do much more of what they see than what you tell them and what you want. And when I've had my daughter, especially but for my son, just the same. What I want him to be is a person that isn't always happy because no one's happy all the time. But is content finds work that feels the map is purposeful, that has meaningful relationships that is kind to themselves, that notices the world and is curious about the world that understand their place in things and feels connected. And for them to be that I need to be that. And I'm not going to be that by obsessing over whether or not I've mopped the floors every day and how perfect my hair looks and whether my kids are perfect. Like I have a friend who I text MSC cupboards to. And I love that. That's good. Friends you miss, find them over when your house is a disaster zone, not when you've spent like an hour being sweaty and crying, fixing it. So perfect. So when they arrived, you're like, Oh, this is the, you know, like, and obviously I still do that too, because I carry a lot of shame around making things clean and having that organized stuff. But I think that's the real stuff. That's connection. That's what heals us. That's what makes us whole and that will make our kids whole let me tell you, they're not going to remember how perfect your house was. But they will remember how they made how you made them feel. And what they see do in the world. Yes, so well said absolutely. Yeah. Love that. Oh, do you feel like I'm gonna shake myself down? You know, we need things and you're like yeah, that's actually that's that's a real appeal. That's what I didn't get on the show. And like ducks do and honestly, you just have to shake off that shake up all the stories and the emotion like genuinely that's why we should do it more. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah, like there's a sock on Play School about shaky sillies out and like you let's we got to get it out of here. So then you could sit down because actually, that's fine yoga, they do all the assignments and then you sit down and meditate afterwards. It's like you've got all the movement. Yeah, yeah, I totally I think so much of healing is movement. And often now I've thought to myself, it's body to mind for me anyway. Like talk therapy is great as well and has its place but I think I met committees like getting your body right getting you got health right? Yeah. And that's yeah, that's something else but science is finally catching up with like, you know Western medicines finally realizing that we're naturopaths have been right for so many years love it when the heavens likes me I was thinking about my friends and hate him. When you walk across the room, I couldn't help us. Sad Hello You sad hello what I wanted to mention to you, I've been listening to your our, the matrices album on Spotify, which it's just, it's such a I don't know, it feels so reassuring. And I think from people that have been through this stuff, when you listen to it, it just makes you like you said it makes you feel heard. It makes you feel validated. But there's a couple of tracks that I was really, I thought were pretty cool feature to have. And at the start, you've got this incredible, like, inhale and exhale, and love. Was that like a deliberate thing? Or did you accidentally do that and then decide to leave it in there. Cuz I just love it. Look, I yelled done it now. So why that particular inhale happened when I wrote that song. When I sang, right? What I do is get very still. And I wrote that song in the back room of my singing teachers studio, as by myself. Very rare to get that as a mom, I think, but that's what I needed. It's almost meditative for me. And that song came out in about 20 minutes. I love it. When that happens. It's like, you know that it's meant to be like that don't yeah, it's just yeah, it just pours out of you. Yeah, it's like a creature, I feel. And that particular moment was that was when I record the way I write because I have a voice memo recording, so that I can just capture it all. Sometimes I'll be walking and stuff. And I'll capture that. But I had the voice memo on and if you listen really closely, there's like a feedback speaker as well, kind of making a sound that we then used in the track. And also, there's breath as beat track that runs through it. And yeah, that was from the original the moment when I wrote it. Took this like inhale, exhale, breath to kind of center myself. And then I wanted it left in there. That song was the first one I brought to zekiel Feminine music producer. And he seems on my other staff. And that was a brand new one and written like the day before. And I was like this is what I had. So clearly in my head. I wanted to snare drum run through it. I wanted this to use that breath and use that speaker sound and yeah, so we use the original voice memo, quite a lot of them in the in the album have that original voice memo recording. Wow. Oh, that's awesome. That's so cool. I love that. And the other thing I really liked too, is in one of the tracks free I think it is with this. There's a child counting like bringing in the template is that wonderful kids to either that's my daughter. Yeah. And you know, she was jumping off a bed. That's the same. That's a voice memo. She was jumping off the bed and just counting yourself down and check yourself again again. She's their own biggest, super loud and joyful and I just grabbed my voice memo on my phone and recorded it. And I will say that for anyone who's a songwriter, that voice or an app that Mike's actually really great. Quality is very good. I just like captured it and then I took it to Zeke and was like, I want to add this into free and Saturday. Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's like, oh, no, like, it reminds me of years ago, I went to a training call of training course a local person that was telling people how to run their Instagram accounts. And they said, You've got to keep like, because she did a like a one on one with her. And she said you've got to keep your own account, your private account separate to your singing account. You've got to create a new account just for you. And Kevin, keep you singing one I'm like, but that's me. Like that's who I am. And she's like, No, but that's that's like your business that's you think I'm like, but that's an I didn't do it because she was telling me to take all these things out and change them. It's like, but everything that's in that account is inspiration to me like my children are a massive inspiration to me. And I love that. You've got that crossing over it in your actual music that you're releasing of, of your children. And you're singing like it's literally the two worlds are together. I just love that. I love that. Thank you. That's such a big compliment. I agree with you. I I think people have a lot of opinions about how you should do the things. And I really think for me, that you just have to follow your gut really deeply. And the thing that you know, the most and the best is your lived experience. And when you make art that deep seated place, like and, and you can feel like it's small and very specific and kind of weird. But actually, everyone's their own special, unique brand of weird. And you're more likely to touch people when you're making art from these really specific, close places. And I think that was social media, which is this kind of unfortunate base that we're all in. But connecting. And yeah, I don't have a separate one for you know, it just all leaves in my account. Really, I have someone else that runs one futons pod into decimal, but we don't do much on there. Because really, I just Yeah, I want to make it from that place. And I don't speak too much about my kids. And I don't use their names because I'm also conscious, I want them to choose how they represent themselves when they decide to. But definitely, I wanted to just be to operate my music and my art and the same with my podcast as much. With as much heart and integrity and honesty as I could. Because that's what I needed. Like I really did it selfishly. I think there's a mate and amazing book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Have you read that? No, I haven't. I do love it as a creative. It's just like, I go back to that book, like the Bible every so often, just like her voice just seems out at you. And there's a really great section which talks about Tom Waits and his songwriting, and how he sees songwriting as creatures, which I had never, I've always felt like that and songs following me around. And I just thought everyone had that turned out. No, not the case. They were gonna get drunk and then write songs into their phone in the toilet cubicle. I thought that was I thought that was um, everyone that you know that he she there's a section in there about his creativity and songwriting and he talks to his songs and like, Come on, mate, you gotta get on the bus. Stop mucking around. Anyway. But this particular would be magic is so much great advice for creatives. And one of the things you said is for the love of God, don't make something for everyone else make it for you. And then if other people love it cool, like she's the author of Eat, Pray Love. She said, she wrote that book for her. Turns out lots of other people saw themselves in it. But yeah, that's so that's so the whole album I made. For me, I listened to those songs like friends when I was struggling in different parts of my life, which sounds weird that you might listen to your own music, but on their friends, their friends of mine, I wrote them, because that's what I needed in particular moments. And I seen them in particular moments. When we spent so long making good girls come read through as we wrap that up, we're gonna tear down this k two rounds, because we had this conversation. I can't remember who it was with now, but it was someone to do with music, the music industry, and it's like, it's literally an industry, it is a money making machine. And if you're going to try and get into that, you've got to be prepared to let go of who you are, and what your voice has got to say. Because you're not going to be doing it for yourself, you're going to be doing it for someone else who's trying to make money out of you. So it's like, don't write music for other people. That was literally where we're going. We're going with it. Same thing. Like if someone resonates with what you've written, that's amazing. That's like that connection is incredible. But that's not why you do it. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, um, I guess where I would say too, it's such a privilege and my, my therapist, Jules, who's just this incredibly amazing person and a creative to just says to me, don't put the guilt in the bin. Don't talk about like age, or where you're at or shoulda Coulda, Woulda, all that bullshit, bow down to the altar of the fact that you have the time and resources to make the art you want to make. And I'm at a point in my life. And I'm very privileged to say this, that I can make the music I want because it's completely independently funded. And I can do it how I want and the power of that, I think and at this time in my life as a mom, not a lot of women have that space and time in their life when I'm writing from this particular moment. On this new URL The Parenting phase when the kids are little. And I'd also say to that I couldn't have written this music. When I first had my newborn. I needed enough time to pass. Someone said this. You can't write from trauma you have to write from the scar. And I think that's really valuable advice to. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. Because we're going to talk about myself. Now, again, because I haven't done enough of it on your podcast clear that I've been at the very end of an album that I've been working on, for, I'd say almost three years about my posts now depression. And it's only six tracks. But do you think I could do it within you know, any cricket? No, because I think that's the thing you have to, you have to let time go. And also be able to mean, you have a lot of my stuff I've written from the point of view as back in there. And that's really hard to go back into. So sometimes you have to let a lot of time go before you're ready to actually go. Okay, I can go back into this now without make letting myself I'm not going to fall apart. If I think about it. You know what I mean? Yes, I think that's very true. That that I'm saying, Yeah, I can't wait to hear that album. No, neither can I No, it's, it's so different. Like my first album, I made, what 2019. And it's all just very, very under produced. It's like acoustic instruments, there's a couple of upbeat tracks. But this is just like, hardcore. They calling it a duck pop. So it's like, there's a lot going on. And this the tracks run chronologically from when it first came when I first got the post out depression, like couple of days in hospital, up to happy, wonderful land. So the tracks, you know, from the musical standpoint, like through the instrumentation, and the treatment of the songs tell that story too. So I'm really, really happy with with how it's gone. And yeah, it's, it's been a long time, but I don't know it. I think it just had to be that way. You know, things just happen when they happen. And also need to person. Yeah, but I totally agree with you that things got takes time. And really good art and truthful art takes as long as it's gonna take. Yeah, and you want to just feel like you've left nothing on the table? Or yeah, yeah. And that was I'm particularly felt like that with this. Because, I mean, who knows? What, if I'm gonna get another opportunity to, to, you know, have an album come out, you know, you just don't know what life will give you. And I don't know, I'm a little bit conscious to that, you know, because I'm an independent artists that the money's not coming from elsewhere. So it's like, you know, am I being really self indulgent, using, you know, family's money to do this thing. So it's like, I wanted to do give it the best go, it could have, you know, and make all the sounds that I wanted it to make and go back and forth with the producers because they're in Spain and Argentina, the people I'm working with, so Wow, it's like I've, if I'm the sort of person I've been a bit of a people pleaser, sometimes with my music. If someone's had a suggestion, oh, yeah, that sounds fine. And really, inside, I'm going no, I don't like that at all. But I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to be the person that causes trouble. I want you to like me, you know, that sort of stuff. But with this, I've gone no, I'm paying you to make this. And I don't have to talk to your face to do it. So I'm going to tell you if I don't like something, which I really haven't had to do much off. To be honest, they've been pretty amazing. But yeah, be conscious of, of, you know, you never know when you'll get your last shot at something. That sounds really morbid, but not I'm not talking like a mike die necessarily. I'm just it's like, you know, I'm 40 How old am I? 45. I hope my voice lasts forever. But I mean, I've had to, I've also had two rounds of COVID. So I don't even know. Like I tried to sing yesterday. And it wasn't that great. So I don't know if my voice is actually permanently damaged from you know, COVID pneumonia. COVID. Again, bronchitis for the last six months, like who knows, you know, just in general life. So anyway, sorry, I'm rambling a bit now. But no, you know, it makes so much sense. It absolutely. Isn't the right I can really believe that. And I think I like you know, it's jewelry for the inside of people's mind. So it doesn't matter. No. But also, yes, absolutely. All of it matters. It's the most important thing. And I think that's that that was inescapable talks about that those two things can be absolutely true. That if you're going to make something you make it absolutely the absolute best that you can and and I think as women, particularly we're socialized to not be difficult to want people to like have all of that stuff. But we just need to you need to trust your own instincts in your own gut and go it's not good enough, not good enough. It's not good enough. And I want it to be this I want it to be that this is my vision and and I think blokes have been doing that for a very particular white boy. For a very long time, you know, and I think the more interesting art is coming from that place where you, you don't want to ever think that you've got to the end of it and gone. Just that bit. What if I'd taken that risk? What if I, you know, go back into the work when you think it's done? And you're like, well, it'll probably do No, you'd go back in, you'd go back in and dig a bit deeper. And you and that's what I think I felt at the end of my album that like, however it comes, whatever happens after this point. I know that thing within the introverts life, I decided how you know, and I worked with Zeke, and I was lucky in that he was really amazing to work with. And also could do what I wanted, and I could hear it, but I could tell him, no, that's not what I want. This is what I want and change it and put ego out of it. And yeah, so I was very lucky in that collaborative process. But I think also I just, yeah, like you were saying, you just want to feel like you've given it your absolute best shot. So you're proud of it? Yeah, then you walk with it in the world. It doesn't matter if anyone else likes it or not. You are proud of it. Yeah, that's it is, you know, every inch of it. And you can be like, well, look at this thing. That's amazing that I've done. And then you know, in your heart when it's really as good as you could have made it, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing, like, too, you know, you're talking about hearing bits and thinking are, you know, I wish I had done that I do that so much with my first album, and to the point where I actually recorded some of the songs with other people, with other producers, and did remixes of them, because I just felt like, and also, it was very rushed. Like, we did it in two weeks. And it was just, I'd never recommend doing that. My mom wouldn't do it again. So I take three, so the next one. But yeah, it's just like, bang, bang, it's got to be done. And it's like, no, there's so much that I listened to and I think, Jesus, I wish I'd said something about that. But then, you know, over time, I have the opportunity to, to re record things, which is also privilege, up through the whisper, laugh. Do I think I need you to let me show you. Want to ask you about when are you going to the UK. So it's just happened a couple of days ago. So I'm going I'm leaving on the 28th of June. I'm going over there for the first of July, most likely for a conference, I'm playing in a conference and then I'm just going to be touring. So I'm currently figuring out how to do that, what venues to go to where to play. I'm going to Exeter there's a group of women down there who are running mothers who make which are these big kind of motherhood, creativity stuff. So going there to do some, a little couple of songs in shows. But really, I'm going on my own same with my music producers at an a&e. And yeah, just putting on shows probably ticketed shows in pubs and that kind of stuff, learning how to do that as I go. But yeah, really super excited about it. And then I actually have a show in Sydney on the 30th of July at the great club in Marrickville. Oh, yes, I know. Alison, who runs it? She used to live in that game. Yeah, yeah. She's pretty awesome seeing it yourself. Wow. Yeah. Well, I sort of I saw that there was women running it. And I thought I want to be involved in that. And I haven't actually been there to the venue. But I've, from what I've seen, it looks really cool. So I've actually got Amy Taylor kebabs. He's going to speak first. So she's doing a speech about my dressing. And then I performed my album. And there's a dancer from Sydney called Aryan Basten, who's also an author that her book on perinatal mental health is coming out this year. And she's written about her experience of postnatal psychosis. But she actually sent me a dance that she'd created to my song self over Instagram. That just blew me away. I didn't know anything about her story. I just saw her dancing. And I saw in her movement that she understood me. She's that's pretty, that's pretty powerful. And so she's going to perform duet with me. So I'm going to sing self, which is that song about breastfeeding and, you know, woman at the start broken open now and that story, so she's going to dance and I'm going to see, Amy will speak and we're going to tell stories. And yeah, so Tickets are available now for that, and that's on the 30th of July. Oh, beautiful. Well, I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. And so people can click on there and see all your goodies. It's a lovely website Who does your drawings of like on your hour? and your little icons and things. My friend, Annabel one. So she's an illustrator from Melbourne. She's a friend of my brothers Actually, she's great. And I had a vision for the image of the front cover, and I do it in pencil. I'm a terrible visual artist. But I had the vision of it. And so she kind of brought it to life. It's lovely. Got the like, the heart is like exposed. It's like, yeah, we'll talk about that a bit about your ID for that front cover. Yeah, so I wanted an image that would capture how I felt when I became a man. And, to me that, it's like having you everything's exposed as like a raw nerve. And also, I think, that idea of an open heart, you are changed. And your heart is now kind of walking around in the world without you sometimes they're at school at your kids. And I wanted to show like, also, like, I'm not wearing any, it's not nude painting, but at the I don't have any like clothes on, you can just see me down to my clavicles with my open heart. It's kind of also reminiscent of sort of biblical art as well. And I got the inspiration to from Florence and the machines album lungs, you know, she has her lungs exposed on her artwork. Yeah, right. Yeah. So but really, I wanted an image that would capture all of it, because I actually when I drew that image, I didn't know I was gonna call it my presence. I didn't know that word. I just was writing what I was feeling. And the songs aren't just about motherhood they're about because of the complexity of being human really, and having big feelings. And so for me, I'm a very deeply feeling person, and my heart is very close to my skin all the time. So that's what I wanted to capture. Yeah, yeah. No, it definitely works. It's Yes, really good. Shoulder to face. So many faces go to places where we get to find books and battles, songs and schemes, somehow left, is there anything else you want to mention before I let you go? A lot today. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. I'll look, I would just like to say if you're a mom listening to this, you're doing a great job, be kind to yourself, give yourself a massive hug, make a cup of tea, put your feet up, if you can. So that I would love to say again, what I would also say is if you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Claire 20. That's probably where everything lives. My website, Cliff twenty.com Is the other spot where you can find about all my events and ticketing, all of that stuff. And I've got beautiful t shirt designs too. So if you like the artwork, you can t shirt with some of them on there's a moss, which is this Each song has its own symbol. So when you come to my show, I give you a lyrics booklet, like a an old school CD cover that has a artwork for each song. And each one has a symbol. So self has the mark because it's the idea of transformation in the darkness. And moths seek light. And to me that's what motherhood and mothering was, in those times so much time spent in the dark, waiting for the light to come. And I was transforming and I didn't realize so that's that kind of I have a T shirt with the math on it for that reason. Really powerful symbol. Lots of things to do with the moon as well, really. So yeah, you can find me over there. I have records as well. I would also say my podcast tons. The new season will be coming out later in the year. But I've got three seasons worth of really rich discussion with women and diverse voices about lots of topics. If you're particularly interested in chronic stress and hormones and you're feeling depleted, gone find that episode with fryer will tell you you won't regret it. It's the story of how I healed outside of music. Everything I did from food and medication and looking at diet and testing and just lots of things that helped me recover from long COVID symptoms. Yeah, that's a really valuable one. And, and yeah, come to a show and if you want me to come play in your area, I bloody love to I'm looking for places to come and bring the music so if you're someone out there that thinks your group of parents or women or community would like some music hit me up. Yeah, good on you. Oh, look. Thank you Claire. It's been so lovely and thank you for spending so much time with me today. We just looked at the clock. Just always made it to Uh, well before my little stuff up in the middle you know what, you know how I fixed the camera? I literally turned the computer off and on and then I started working that's The IT Crowd isn't it? Have you tried turning it off and on? I always joke about that someone made a joke once about if your car wasn't working you just get out shut the door open get back in again. And it should work. It's like a computer we often think that human beings are the same sometimes you just need to turn ourselves off face it yeah right yeah that's what people who do me a favor just go radical rest. I'm really all about that. Reading on Nast. Oh, just bloody. Yeah, so much can be solved in life with a bit more rest. I know that's a privilege but I also think some of the things we do we do out of obligation and guilt checking in the bean and have a nap. Yes, there you go. Chuck it in the bin. That's that's the theme of this show today chuck in the thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Scott Maxwell Father's Day Ep - SA musician + educator S2 Ep61 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome to the first of 2 special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier South Australia and a dad of 4 boys, including a set of twins. Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band, as an 8 year old he was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran, the Shadows, surf pop and his dad taught him lead guitar. In his early high school years Scott created a band with his mates and his interest in music kept developing throughout high school. He wanted to get in the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners and wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching music and did so for years. Scott was the winner of an ARIA Award in 2018 - , The Telstra Music Teacher Award . Scott left his class room teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound, working as a mentor in a not=for=profit organisation that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambier called "Frequency Fridays" with all the incredible instruments he has collected. Connect with Scott instagram youtube Podcast - instagram / website Music you'll hear today is from Scott and is used with permission. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the first of two special episodes released to coincide with Father's Day here in Australia. Scott Maxwell is a musician and educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia and the dad of four boys, including a set of twins, Scott's dad was a guitarist in a band. As an eight year old Scott was listening to Tears for Fears and Duran Duran and the shadows. His dad taught him some lead guitar, he loved surf pop music, and in early high school, Scott created a band with his mates. His interest in music just kept developing throughout high school. Scott wanted to get into the education system because he could see that it was broken and did not cater for all learners, and he wanted to be a force for change. He made a career of teaching and did so for many years, and Scott was the winner of an aria award in 2018, winning the Telstra music teacher award. Scott left his classroom teaching position in 2020 to begin a new adventure in sound. He works as a mentor in a not for profit organization that teaches transformative learning through creativity, enabling teachers to deliver music to their students. In addition to his day job, Scott's experimentation in sound has evolved to him running fortnightly sound baths in Mount Gambia, called frequency Friday is explored meditation, new instruments, including crystal bowls, and gongs. And this has triggered a new Sonic obsession for him. Today, we chat about the place that music and sound holds in our culture and society. A little bit about partner guilt and the way that Scott wanted to make a difference in the educational system. The music that you hear throughout this episode is from Scott on all the amazing instruments that he has collected in recent years. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming in. Scott. It's a real pleasure to welcome me and good to get the other side's perspective on the special fallacy episode. Yeah, thanks for having me. Awesome. This is a very unique opportunity. Indeed, it's actually unique that you're in my studio, because I kept many people in my studio. I spend most of my most of my my time in studios. There's nothing like being in a creative space with the Lego guy. Like I was creative. I tried to keep some of it at least nice. But it just That's not me at all. I have to have stuff around me. Like, just sort of, if there was a creative office that was clean, I'd be worried. Yeah, you know, yeah, the fact that this isn't clean, it's just staffing, stuff everywhere. Yeah. And yet most studios are saying this stuff everywhere. So yeah, that's how, you know. I mean, if you could, you know, open a door to inside my brain. That's how my brain looks as well as the stuff everywhere. I think that's most creative people have an idea there. And then there's something else there. And and I need to get to do that. And yeah, yeah. I know. That's right. And then you get so hyper focused on something that you just like, oh, well, what was I thinking? Oh, I don't even know. And then, you know, yeah, it's like, everything else just doesn't exist. And you just, yeah, I've done that many times in here. I've been editing or doing something and then I've sort of lifted my head up and gone. Ah, what are we having fatigue? You know, you just get so fixated on something. Yeah, you do. You do? What are the children doing? Yeah, it's like, I've got 15 minutes before I need to do something. I just gotta go out to my studio just to look at something. And you know, and then you look at the time and you're like, Oh, my God, where did the time go? You know, I'm five minutes late now. Yeah. It was very important is very important. Yeah. Yeah. So tell our listeners, obviously I know what you do. But I'm seeking to tell me more about what you do button, your studio. What do you do in your studio? So my studio is like it's like a rehearsal space. For me a practice space, it's a administration place for my day job. It's it's just a it's an it's like the center of my existence. Really? Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love it so much. And it wasn't until I was a parent, did I feel that I needed one? Because I needed a space that that was separate from the world that I was, I was living, I guess, you know, so that I could just be there with be present with, you know, my brain and the creative force. And yeah, so otherwise, it would have just been, you know, up until that stage was just my bedroom. So, you know, because that was a space where there was no one else anyway. So. Yeah, so I think that's, that's probably, that's, that's my studio. Yeah, it's a, it's, it's a spot where it's a spot where I Yeah, where I escaped the world, and I'd be present with myself and, and whatever, whatever I feel, needs to needs to come out. So it's quite a it's quite an unstructured zone. Unless that unless things are unless there's a time when I've got a deadline coming up, then it can be quite a focus structured area, but a lot of the time, it's me researching, it's me experimenting. It's me, yeah. Finding coming down, you know, rabbit holes, and because I'm, like, I'm a, I love sound. So anything to do with sound is really excites me. And, you know, I think as a culture that we could have, we could have easily not built our culture around money and capitalism, but instead built it around sound. Ah, what a cotton said, I know. Like, honestly, this this thing of capitalism. I have been on this for the last probably half a dozen episodes with people all of a sudden it just came to the forefront. And we've been talking about how not just creating mothers but anyone who creates that doesn't receive a monetary renumeration from that, why are they less important to society as people who earn money from their creativity? Like it's just been this massive topic? And we might come into that after? Yeah, I mean, that is something that I've been worried about. Yeah, it's, well, it's, you know, like sound has been at the center of what we do. And there's a school of thought that believes that sound and music was how civilization civilizations formed. Because there was that need for a group mentality there was a need for ritual and there was a need for people to be joining in with whatever whatever it was, but sound was what brought them together. And you think about that pre language stuff as well as sound communication. So you know, anything about humans on the earth have been here for you know, for we don't even know how long but it's only in this last sort of snippet of humanity where, you know, we're pushing the cache and returning the world into a giant shopping mall. Yeah. Yep. I feel like we can talk more about the company. You said your day job do you? Are you still involved in teaching? Are we doing something? Yeah, I am. I'm, I work for an organization called Sovereign or non for profit organization come in Victoria. And I'm involved in a program called transformative learning through creativity. And my job is to mentor primary school teachers in To feel uncomfortable about teaching music in their day to day classrooms, so incorporating music into the into their work, and helping them plan for lessons and deliver and play games and all that sort of stuff with the that music focus. So that's what I get to do I work at five schools in the area. And I go out and work with these work with these amazing teachers, with their wonderful kids. And yes, it's a blast. It's, it's it. Yeah, it's a really, really cool. It's a great job. And it's one where I have a lot of, I have a lot of creative scope as well. No one really tells me what it is that I need to do. So everyone sort of trusts my my own intuition. Yeah, it's that goal to achieve. But it's up to you. How are you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And there are challenges that come with the job. But you know, the, that's the challenges that come with any job, but it's usually teach teachers that move, and that sort of thing. So the teachings are very transient sort of occupation for a lot of people, some people stay in the same spot for X amount of years. But a lot of people do move over a lot of contracts going around and that sort of stuff. So yeah, that's what I get to do during the day. And, yeah, yeah, it's a pretty cool gig. So is that like, so the teachers that are sort of teaching the students they don't, it's not sort of like a formal education in music, they don't have to have like training in musical theater. It's about just as the incorporating it in sort of, I mean, I used to work in childcare. So yeah, we put music in, I'm just comparing it to that, like, yeah, anytime someone was doing something, and a child paid attention to one particular thing, or whatever you did, I know, there'd be a song that went with that, you know, like, I had a friend that used to do this, every time you'd say something, she could break out into a song lyric, it's like, you just, you just go off, you're picking up something, or let's sing the song about picking up, you know, that sort of that sort of way. It's like making it part of just everyday life sort of thing. Maybe not to that extreme, but it's probably not to that extreme, but there's no reason why it couldn't be is to sell. You know, that's because that childcare settings, is that a little bit younger? There's just, I mean, I don't have I actually don't have all those songs in those skills, but we have songs for making circles. And, you know, we do do lots of songs in class, in class time, and that sort of thing, but not necessarily those. You know, like the alphabet song, you know, only because, probably, me, you know, I could get skilled up in that area myself. You know, we used to call it the Play School. So yeah, actually, if someone was building it, start saying, build him up build anything a child? Yeah, there's a song that goes with it. And what I found really interesting was that some educators were just so natural at it, like you could tell they just grew up like that, or were really comfortable with it. Other people would get that certain level of judgment about I can't sing properly, so I won't do it or, you know, that confidence, and they feel like they're being judged by other people, not by the children, because they love it. They know, it's right. What are you saying? No, that's a very interesting sort of reflection on people's, you know, yeah. Well, you know, I tend to think the way I look at it is that you know, and you're right, that the majority of people that I teach, so no, it's best, they don't have any formal music education. Because if you did, then you should be able to teach music, you know, but, so these are people that weren't pretty much not teaching music in in their classrooms, maybe doing a few songs or doing assembly pieces or lattes sort of thing, but not really understanding. You know, I mean, most teachers don't even they can read the music curriculum. They wouldn't have ever had a clue of what some of these things are, like, the the elements of music, you know, they might not know what tambor or texture or you know, even pitch, most of them know what rhythm rhythm are. But that's pretty. That's pretty important. But coming to what you're saying. I think that's a really interesting point. Because, you know, I think you think about the education system and you think, Well, you know, it wasn't the education system that created that well. So that was it that a lot of the time when we as adults think about the education system, you know, we sort of there's a lot of trauma involved in schooling. For for all of us, as adults, we can trace that back to when we were kids. And, you know, sometimes schools are better at telling us what we feel like we're not good at and what we are good at, say, I mean, that I think the education system as a whole has a lot to answer for that. Like, it's, it's pretty, it's pretty nuts. Yeah. And certainly in Scotts perfect world, we wouldn't be doing it the way we're doing it. So that was a nice to be that little. And that's why I got into education anyways, because I knew it was broken. And I'd like to be a crack in the system. And I feel like, you know, this job gives me the opportunity to be a little bit of a crack in the system, because, you know, the kids really look forward to me coming in, even if I'm not taking a lesson to teach might be taking them because they know, this fun stuffs gonna happen, you know, they know that they're gonna have a license to be creative. They know that there's no, no, they don't have to be frightened that they're gonna get something wrong. The only time that happens is if you're playing a game, and they might get out. But that's all it is. Yeah. And they're probably not even aware that they're learning so much through the process through what you're, you know, giving Yeah, I'm thinking that it's that they've been taught to know, well, that's what learning learning should be like. Yeah. And, you know, and being a musician, it's challenging. You know, it's challenging, you've got to, you know, and you know, this yourself, there's this, there's this part, this is Part in music, where you have to grind. And if you don't grind, you don't, you don't get any better. And it's that rote repetition, which, unfortunately, the, you know, there's a lot of schools of thought that don't even, you know, right is like a dirty word universities was when I went to uni, that's for sure. However, that's the way I learned. And prep, perfect practice makes. I was interesting. I'm a great speller. So yeah, I think, I also think that one of one of our problems with people being hard on themselves, it's a cultural thing. So you know, I lived up in the ipy lands, for for a couple of years. And culturally there, you sort of, you stand out if you if you don't sing, because songs or songs are part of their daily life. That's, you know, the stories are all told through song. Like, it has been fun, you know, 10s of 1000s of years. So it's ingrained in their culture. Whereas we have, you know, flip it over to, to us, our urban culture. And, and, you know, the game shows the X factors, the voice and all that sort of thing, then all of a sudden, you know, is everyone that sings being judged, you know, by, you know, by Guy Sebastian? Yeah. That's, I think that's part of where we've got to. Also. Yeah, also, I know, through experience that, you know, kids, like kids like to sing, but sometimes, they may annoy their parents. And it might be just natural for the parents to tell them, hey, you know, you sound like a dying dog or something like that, you know, and that might sound like a dying dog, too. But that can really pay detrimental to that, the psyche of that. So, a lot of the times, you know, I like to tell parents that if your kids, if your kid is learning music, and it sounds horrible, then that's probably good, because they're actually probably trying something that they've never done before. And the only way you can do it, you know, if their practice if they're a piano player, and they're practicing a piece and it sounds beautiful, then then not nothing's happening. They're rehearsing they're not practicing. Yeah, that's some of my best singers. You know, I've spoken to their parents and their parents will say that they make really silly noises a lot. And that's that's experimentation of, of the voice or whatever it is. You can do your voices. That's part of what my studio is still. I'm still experimenting, you know? 50 years old, and I haven't stopped since I was like, 11 years old. I haven't stopped at all. Maybe Maybe there will still be Hi yeah, that's a that's a good question. You know, when I look back, I think, you know, definitely had something to do with my father and seeing a picture of him in his early 20s playing guitar in a band, I still remember the photo. And you know, I listened to music, but there was no, there was no depth. I did like the I did like the hooky, sort of minor stuff, you know, I knew that I liked it, because it had an emotion, like an emotional draw for me, and I knew anything and then these, these these minor keys, and this was the, you know, going to the early 80s. Here, you know, as sort of about eight, you know, 19 ADLs, I would have been eight years old. So, heading towards probably 10. Nine and 10 had some, some pretty big songs out there. I can't even think I mean, I know I used to love. Everybody Wants to Rule the world, but it is, it is. I mean, I remember that when that came out. And that was that was one of those jarring things. My first album was Duran Duran. It was an EP The wild boys EP, I'm not sure if that was my first that was my first album. And my first cassette was seven in the record, Tiger. So Duran Duran, there you go. They had some big minor hooks. And I was right into that. But yeah, my dad taught me a couple of things on the guitar and taught me some shadows. So Apache, and the benches walked around, so bit of surf, sort of style instrumental stuff. So it was the lead guitar. And I just took it from there, I just just didn't stop at a couple of mates, we got together at that transition stage from year seven to year eight, was high school for us. And we played we had this little band going on, and yeah, and then just did not stop from there. So we played those songs and then just kept developing throughout high school. And, yeah, that's how, that's how it started. You know, I can't, I can't pinpoint a particular there been moments that have completely blown my mind. But, you know, it was big becoming invested in music. And by invested in music, I mean, that, you know, when we talk about the first album, or your first cassette, like that, no longer exists. Yeah. So and that was an investment because you needed money to start off with, and however, you got your money back in the day, whether it was pocket money, or, you know, pleading to your folks or whatever it was, you had to there was something you had to do. And then you had to physically, you know, I had to walk down to Kmart, which is a couple of days down the road, go go to the local record store, look through all the staff and say, this is the one that I'm going to buy, take home, and listen to. And that investment in music was was, you know, that's what you get. You're accountable to the music, then you sit there and you look at the artwork, and yeah, play the final say, yeah, that was that was how musics sort of I got involved in music. And yeah, just on that, do you think it diminishes the importance or the value we put on music because it's so accessible now? Yeah, yeah, I do. I definitely do. So there's, there's there's positives and negatives. And, you know, it's such an exciting time for independent artists to be able to release stuff and have it so accessible and available. The I mean, the music industry's it's cutthroat you know, it's intense. And you've got artists now being able to bypass the industry. Yeah, so that's, that's amazing. So for the artists, it's, it's probably pretty cool but on a cultural level, having having that access unprecedented access to music is? Well, it's going to it's going to affect the monetization of artists. Tell me, I know. Exactly. Ah, but yeah, yeah, you've got that. If it's, you know, it's just like saying, hey, if if our roads were made of of diamonds, how precious would they be on your fingers? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So that's, yeah, it's it's a it's an issue. It's an issue. Yeah, I can say like, I, as an independent musician, myself, like being able to release music is amazing. But then at the same time, you think, because there's so much there? It's just, you know, will it ever get listened to it? Or will anyone's ever get listened to unless you are within, you know, a big company that can provide stuff like there's just so much stuff out there? And I didn't realize. So, when I, when I did the ARIA stuff. Yes. Yeah. It was such an insight into industry that I'd never had before. And so you know, I remember I remember having a chat to this to this bloke outside outside the toilet at the areas. And he was asking me all about this staffing. I, this is at a this is sorry, at the areas I actually got presented the area at a what was the, what was it called? It was an industry meeting. So it was all the big it was all the CEOs of sonar, Warner, Music, Spotify, all that it was this, you know, huge thing Bob Geldof was there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, chatter was amazing. I said, thank you for all you've done for music. You know, he picked up the award he's going he's a very weighty you're, he's like, you get back to school, tell them all the award should be this heavy. Yeah. But anyway, I was chatting to this guy. And he was saying how, you know, he wished that he continued learning whatever instrument and now that sort of dawned on me that these people aren't musicians, you know, they're business people, and are speaking to another guy, we're sort of moving from one place to the other. And he was talking to me, and he said, Well, you know, congratulations, and all that we're hoping for our first aria for I forget which one it was, was like the big one, like, Song of the Year or something like that. And I'm like, ik you know, who, whose team you're part of, and this is a there was about nine business guys in suits. And so that was Amy sharks team. So who knows? And she actually ended up winning that, so they got it. But I don't even know what they do. What are these guys in suits, they are just like, well, this is that's how I know that this is. This is massive industry. Yeah. And there's something that happens there. I don't know. It's secret. Squirrel. Yeah. Doors, things going on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's, that's the type of thing that I'd be bad at this. See, that's the thing that I sort of think, on one hand, having, having all the music in the world possible on a platform and letting people decide what they want to listen to, is good, because it sort of cuts that control that the commercial radio stations have because the people make deals with the execs are you give us that much. And we'll play the song four times a day, you know, takes out that like, that's why I love community radio so much because the only stipulation they have is they've got to play. I think it's only 20 something percent Australian music apart from that they can do whatever they like, you know, there's not that nice deal sort of being made. So I've just taken the conversation. I love community radio. Yeah, I think that's it's literally what it is. It's, you know, everyday ordinary people sharing their love and their community and yeah, the people think it's awesome. Yeah, no, you're right. And, you know, and today we have access to community radio from Hundreds and 1000s of community writers Yes, we would be would be ensnared. Yeah. So such an interesting, interesting concept. But yeah, so music is freely available as as we want it. But yeah, the power the Pat, the the actual power of music gets lost within within its within its easy access. You know? So getting back to your area, can you share with us that story and how you got involved and what the award was, and that kind of stuff for people who might not be aware? Yeah, so the story goes, the, there was a couple of teachers at my school who wanted to put me up for a nomination. And so they asked the kids to write some type of thing for for me, and it was voluntary, you know, kids could do it if they thought that I deserved that, blah, blah, blah. So I ended up getting nominated for this for an aria Award, which, which was really, really amazing. Yeah, it was like, awesome. And then it was up to a community vote. So the community had to get behind it. And, you know, I thought, you know, how I was, like, how I had to develop the campaign, which really helped me in my you know, because you're obviously, you know, there's five teachers, everyone's, everyone's an amazing teacher, everyone deserves the ARIA, you know, it's a, it wasn't about that it was just, for me, it was a childhood dream. You know, ever since ever since I started playing in bands and knew about what the area was. I thought, wow, you know, I'd love to win that. And there's funny stories that actually go go there now. Because so, I'm rewind, and I'm a good musician, um, you know, possibly 23 years old playing in bands. And I see some people that I was sort of involved in scene nosing. Getting this aria award? Yeah. Because their band was the super Jesus. Oh, yeah. And I remember watching it that day, and thinking, Oh, wow, maybe have made some real decisions in my musical path. Because I was playing. I was playing surf punk at the time, but I come from, you know, thrash metal. Really high energy. Yeah. angry music. Yeah. Which was, which was, which was cool. And I loved and that's why I did it. And that was the moment where I thought, Oh, maybe I should look at something else. And that was a moment where I signed up to do the stat test for uni. Yeah. And that's how I got to university. And that's how I became a teacher. So, you know, fast forward 2020 years, 25 years, or whatever it was, and there it was in front of me, like a carrot on the stick. And I'm like, Oh, yes, this is a childhood dream. I'm gonna go for it. So what I did is I recorded, I've written this song on guitar, and it was a real flashy guitar thing. And because I thought, I thought to myself, I thought, how could I? How can I get people up? I am one of those people, you know, like, I don't like asking for money, like from people, you know, or your vote. Vote for me vote for me. Yeah. So I thought, how can I do this, which isn't, you know, so I thought, well, what can I give, you know, how can I give something? And so I had this guitar thing that was really, really intense. And so I was able to just chop it up into little snippets. And as I build a Facebook page called riff of the day, yeah. And every day, I post a little bit of a riff, and with a vote for me, don't forget to vote. Yeah. And that's, that's basically, it was pretty popular. There was and that's how, that's how it works. So, you know, and that's, you know, that's how, obviously, the people, the people of this community really got behind me, and that's how I won the Aria. So, you know, it was it was a vote of confidence from the community, which was very, very humbling. Yeah, extremely humbling. So and going to the IRS was just you know a dream come true. Now I've done it now walk that red car. I've done. You know, I can cross that off my bucket list. Do you want to drop some names? Who else do you talk to? There was George Shepherd from shepherd he was he was my buddy. But who was sitting next to somebody really fast? I don't either. We're not listening. We really offended Oh, they weren't getting an hour. But yeah, I don't I don't I just I didn't speak to that many people. Like I was a little bit I say humbled by by everything. Who else did I speak to? I don't know. Yeah. Cuz it was like, everyone wanted to speak to me. Like that key rule rule is like, this was an up and coming out of spec thing. It's like 15 years into care come up to me and shake my hand and rule. I think it's a rule came out. So he shook my hand. And it was like, you know, munching on some Cheetos as you do when you're 15. Right. And he's just won an hour here as well. And, you know, there was like, you know, Troy QSI. Daily, you know, chatting to him at the end of the night, but we weren't chatting. We're chatting about school drop offs. Funny, Murray wiggle. He's gold. So yeah. And all the like, it was easy to be involved in meeting all the wiggles who were all there. So but Mary's Marisa, you know, he's a great musician. Yeah. He, he looks after these lads called the DZ death rays. I think they are. Yeah. And same sort of thing. Right. Yeah. So it was it was a it was just an amazing experience. I was. I was in the I was in the elevator. Oh, I got to sign I got to sign these posters. And, you know, my name was on with all the other ARIA award winners. It was so weird signing, you know, they took me to this vector, which is little room up, stay stays in there. Like, you get a photo. And then, which is the official RFID. And then you sign this and they follow you around with, like beers and stuff like that. Other beer said another beer. Yeah, that's what the arrows are. Like, there's like, every, every five rows, there's an esky. Oh, wow. And it's got like water and beer and champagne, whatever it is in there. And they fill it up. Just like, Whoa, yeah, there you go. This is an insight inside that. I could only because I was gonna say, like, people, I think I remember seeing the footage of you getting like the mayor with your award. And so people were so appreciative because you're literally, you know, bringing the future of musicians to life, you know, you're giving them the passion. And, you know, there's the actual skills, but you know, that love of music, and that appreciation for it is, you know, what's going to, you know, bring on the next generation of performance. So, yeah, you know, I think that's, that's important. Like, and it's, it's, it's the, for me, it's the musical experience, you know, it's the experience that you have with music. So, you know, so anyone listening out there now, you know, if you want to feel that power of the experience of music, you know, think back to think back to when you were 16. And there's some songs you're listening to, like you can you can latch on to memories, that, you know, that have been a part of the soundtrack to your life. That's how important music is. You know, there's not too many people will say, Oh, well, I wasn't really listening to music when I was whatever you know, about that. 1617 is when we start to really sort of capturing but you know, music has been, you know, think about how you felt after the last concert. You've you went to a big concert. Last because how did you feel that? That feeling stays with you for days and days, and then forever? Yeah. As you'll always remember those because there's this shared experience and that's part of the power of music is that it gives us the the the the opportunity to have amazing shared experiences. It's this real energy exchange. So and I tell students well, I used to tell the older students this, but this happens when I teach music anyway, but you I'm on stage. And you know, the energy that you give to the audience comes straight back at you, you know, and it doesn't necessarily matter how many people are in that audience. But you know, you get that energy times, whatever times whatever is close to you, you know, I don't know what it's like to pay. And like a big stadium or anything like that I think the most people ever paid to was about 4000. That's pretty rad. But it wasn't, yeah, the energy exchange was a little bit disjointed, because it was a big stage was lifted up. And it's not quite like, you know, I remember playing and I remember playing at the Tivoli in the Thrash band, and there were literally people running off the bar and jumping into the crowd. And now, we're sort of, I had to play with my back turn to the audience, so I could just push them out a little bit. So give me Oh, I was so cool. Yeah. So and that's, you know, you're in the midst of that energy. Just Just amazing. That's the power of music, you know, you know, music gives us an opportunity to express that energy. And music is energy in itself with sound energy, you know, we just can't see it. But it's, oh, it's there. You're listening to the art of being a mom, my mom, I was. Interesting story, fast forward, just passed the area. And I'm starting to think, oh, what next? You know, I've achieved this massive goal, where am I going? I don't want to go backwards. I don't want to turn into Oh, that was that guy that that was that teacher who won that area. And now, you know, now he's just like a cobweb in the corner. So really made me start to think. And then there was all this all this friction in my workplace as well. And then and say, all that all that stuff. There was a lot of stuff going on. And, and it boils down to that I felt like, you know, the arts were being attacked for being too popular. You know, yeah, it was, it was lit, it was literally, literally, kids aren't handing up their English assignments on time, because they're too involved in your musicals. And it's just like, what, and that's when it that's, and so that started to weigh real heavily on my shoulders. And, and I just went down, down with stemmer, you know, into it into, like, you know, into a really sort of horrible mental position where I wasn't sure what, where I was going, what I was doing, how I was going to combat this. And through that, I ended up I ended up looking into altered states of consciousness and, and meditation, that sort of stuff. And then I came across all these meditation instruments, I didn't even know they existed. So I came across a crystal ball. So I work a lot with digital. In the past, I've worked a lot with digital sound. And there's a thing called a VST, which is literally a virtual instrument. And so I ended up I was looking at this virtual instrument, they had all these meditation instruments. And I'm like, Well, I've never heard of these things before. And then I found this crystal ball, and it's literally a frosted crystal ball, and bigger than your normal salad bowl, and shaped a little bit differently, but it has a tone, pure tone. And I thought, Okay, what's this and I, I listened to one and it just it's one. It's like a sine. It's like a natural sine wave. And I was listening to her and it just, it was still it did not move. It was it's oscillates with itself. Yeah. That that beautiful. And I was like, oh my goodness, what, what is it and I felt I felt amazing. It was like, I'd spent my entire musical career trying to be as fast as I possibly could then never, never stopped to savor what it could be like to be still with a musical note. And it just drew me in and from that moment, Ain't unlike us hooked Yeah, absolutely hooked and two crystal balls together creating whatever how many you want in a room is yeah, it's just outstanding, you know, for me, for me and everyone, everyone would react different because everyone you know musics unique experience and listening to sound as well as a unique experience. So, you know, the person next to you would experience that sound differently. Some people those crystal balls are really activating this seat in the middle of the head, you know? And some people find them you know, they might need to move or whatever. Yeah. So that's what that's what started this journey and then it was you know, gongs, gongs are the opposite gongs are like, like opening a doorway to, you know, a million cosmic frequencies at once. Yeah, it's just like, there's they're everywhere. And, you know, the idea about I found the idea of a sound bath. And I like, I just love the term. It is sound, isn't it? It's like you luxuriating in. I mean, I've always loved I've always loved baths, myself, and sitting back and contemplating life and so forth. But to think that you could do it in sound, I'm like going, is this I'm really excited about it. And I did an online course. And, you know, which was okay, but sort of showed me the ins and outs of of what it's all about, I guess, like the practicalities, the practicalities of it, and your uses for it, and so forth. And then yeah, I just went down that rabbit hole. And I've now managed to bring my guitar into that space. And now I'm starting to, you know, do the sound baths and it's so cool. It's so cool. Like it is. It's, it's like unbridled creativity, you know, you really just you, you have to have a plan. Like, you know, like, like my life. You know, the plan is just there. It's not like, it's not like, I'm gonna, something bad's gonna happen if I don't follow up. But the plan is there that that's the, that's the plan is planned. But be. Yeah, it's so, but yeah, once you once you're in that zone, it's, it's so cool. And you know, it's such an individual experience, it can take, you know, you can take one person on this fantastic imaginative journey through time and space. And for others, it can, you know, it can give them the space to release emotions or whatever they, they need to. So, there's certainly been a lot of that at at the sound bars as well. And like I say, to people, you know, I'm going to fill this room with sound frequency, you know, the sound frequency itself is pretty neutral. You know, it's, they're just their frequencies there sound frequencies, there's research on how they affect the body. But if you want to, you can release negative thoughts outwards, into those frequencies. Or, you can allow those frequency if you are really enjoying them, and then they're, you know, they're turning you on or whatever, you can just let that evening and, and, you know, really switch on, which is, you know, it's just, it's just amazing. And you know, we've, the thing is with, that's the way that I listen to music as well, you know, that's, you know, if there's something that I let in, I'll let it in, but if the sub A lot of the time, it's letting out. Yeah, particularly. Yeah, you know, when I particularly like, you know, young kid listening to thrash music, you know, pretty, pretty upset with the state of the world. And the inequalities of the world and getting out all that angst with, with heart hard, fast, heavy music was the same type of thing. Just now, now, everything's a little bit different. And yeah, it sounds pretty cool. But, you know, along the way, I've learned so much about sound. And, you know, sound is one of those. It's one of those things, it's like, yeah, it's like gravity. It's always there. You know, very rarely do you sit in silence. And if when you are in silence, I swear you can hear something anyway, this this just the sound that's always there. Yeah, listen, that's just my brain tinnitus. But you know what I mean? Like, it's just the sound was very rarely get solid solids yet like proper silence. Yeah. And yeah, sound is Saturday, we said the weird thing about sound this is. So sound needs the human ear to be to perceive it. It's like if a tree falls in the forest. Now, is it too soon to make a sound? You know? Yeah, like I said no, because I produced it produced sound waves. And but if there's nothing to receive the sound waves, then it doesn't make a sound. So it's gonna be relative isn't it is it is really interesting. I love that one. It's like, that's, yeah, it's pretty cool every thing that I've done it always everything always comes back to music, you know? And, yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful way to live your life isn't to have that sort of piano reflect on it like that? Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Yeah, it is. It is. And, you know, it's funny, because you always ask myself, what is it about music? You know, what do what do i What is it that I want to get out? But you know, and you know, the answer I always, always came up with even at since I was a kid is that I want people to feel the way I feel when I'm listening to music. I want as many people to feel that because such a good feeling. And, you know, and it just reminds me of that. That, you know, it's like, you're holding up, like, a mirror to the universe. So that it may know itself better. But so that's that, you know, that's, that's that style of thinking? That I think that for me, you know, music. That's That's what music is? It's pretty profound isn't it is. And you sort of think something was simplified at all, but something so simple? Like I said, it's with us all the time, every day. That it's so he has so much meaning. Yeah, well, music is simple. Like, you know, and this is the thing, this is what my my job is to try and tell teachers that think that they don't know anything about music, it's like, well, you know, you only think you don't know anything about music. Because a lot there's a lot of a lot of people have hijacked music and music education. And they want to make it smarter than what it needs to be they want to make it more academic than what it needs to be. Doesn't need to be academic at all. You know, you don't need academics in music, you know, but there are people that like to what's the word? Academic, non academic, academic, I want to do that to everything. And you can, it can break something, you make it so inaccessible. To make it accessible, and I know that I know that the education departments had trouble with that, you know, trying to make the try and make your subject because music can be more complicated than physics. Yeah, of course. How complicated Do you want to it? Yeah, you can make it as complicated as you are. And this never stops. It's like a fractal. It's, you know, and it's exciting the other way it can be as simple as a drumbeat going. Yeah. Yeah, it can be as complex as the most weirdest harmonies in combination with strange texture. B, you know, there's, it's endless. It is it is it's like Yeah, yeah, find the ocean. Yeah, we've only we've only explored what is it 5% of the ocean or something like that. It's the same. It's the same with music. So I didn't and now we're finding sound. You know, I was reading an article from Stanford University the other day where you know, they're using acoustic technology and sound technology to pack heart cells into places where they can't that's the only technology that they that they can use. Yeah, they're also using sound as a deterrent for malaria carrying mosquitoes they found that there's sound that I heard Yeah, we'll send frequencies and frequencies Yeah, well, they do they use for dogs for like making them stop barking frequency collars. We can't hear it. Yeah. As you get those big, I mean, you've got those big Sonic Weapons was actually about to say yeah, see that's breaky. It's sort of freaky, it's freaky. So but, you know, people, I think people need to understand that, you know, from my understanding of what those those things are, is they're just very fucking loud speakers. Yeah, right. And this so loud that they're they are extremely and they're very focused on like, point them. So, you know, that's how they're using them and so that, you know, they can point it at you and say, Hey, you get out of it, and it will be so annoying and loud that you move. Yeah, because there's nothing else you can do. I sort of the way I mentioned, I don't know, this sounds terrible. I'm sorry to be little war. But you know, when surprised would seem really high and the glass would shatter. That's how I was imagining that like, like, just send this this frequency through and, and things would just go just like, explode. Yeah. You know, there's nothing to say that doesn't, you know, they couldn't have that power is, you know, if you could do it if the sopranos could do it. Wow. But yeah, you know, there's, there's all types of research to say that, you know, if you think about, think about things having frequency, and if you think about harmonic resonance, so for those people who don't know how might resonance is, you can take a particular notes, say, let's say for example, my crystal balls are great. So I could record a crystal bowl, and I can then apply it and record it. And if I play that, recording back to that crystal ball, it'll start making its own sound because it is resonating with the frequencies in the room. It's, it's unreal, it's unreal. It's just, well, it's just like, if you have guitars, if you have guitars, in your in your and you play the sound of a string loud enough, the strings will start to resonate. So like if I had my singing bowl? Yeah, like dinged it. Another one, if it was the same, would start to go. Possibly, possibly. Yeah. It's probably because it's because of that. Because of the bowl, it probably needs a little bit more to get it right. Like if it was bigger, it would go but it's because it's small. And it's contained. Yeah. But it might, you should try it. But that's how money, let's get this harmonic resonance. Like that's a thing. Just got a cold shiver. We go. It's amazing. So if you think about that, and if you think about everything is frequency, so my god, so people, like things can literally communicate with each other in a way? Well, that's really interesting, because I was reading an article. I was reading an article the other day, who they're looking into research saying that actually, cells communicate with each other through sound waves. Because it's the fastest way to travel through. It's not like a sound that we can hear. Yeah, it's a vibration. Yeah. So but that vibration, create contains information. There's so much we don't know, there is so much we don't know. I mean, I, I know. And you know, me, I'm sure there's people out there that don't call bullshit. But like, we don't know, we just we don't like anything, you know? And, you know, so where do you think this is gonna take you like, you're on this, this amazing sort of journey of you could go anywhere. It's really, yeah, could I sort of feel I do feel a little bit lost at the moment. Like, I want to, like, I would love to turn this type of thing into my day job, this exploration of sound because there's probably nothing that really makes me feel like I'm serving my purpose, or being me then offering that sound stuff to people. But then to do that, there's that there's that part of having the other side which is the business sense and, and you know, and looking at that, that that is as in that is like the inner wellness industry space as well so that I'm not particularly good at like, you're good at the creating stuff, so I'm not not 100% Sure, you know, of Yeah, I don't know where it's gonna take me so I'm gonna let it take me wherever it's gonna take me because I know when I started with all this stuff that that felt like that felt like home. It's like, right here we go. You know? Like, I think I've been looking for something like that ever since I started playing. Playing music and you know it was looking for something you it, I've sort of feel like I've found it. Yeah, it's almost like you had to as a, as a beam as a person had to experience something that was really going to challenge you and push up against you, for you to, to make a switch, I suppose and go nuts. This isn't right. And to go into that, like, almost like you had to come to a head. Yeah, yeah. And I'm bringing my hands together, like, you know, something had been had to happen. Yep. For that shift to take place. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, at a deep, and then there was the highs. And then there was the lows. And then there was the piecing back together. With with, with a new, a new outlook, I guess. So that's, it's been it's been such an such an interesting journey. Up to this point. And yeah, like, I'm really interested to see, you know, how well this type of this type of thing is going to be received, like, in our community, at the moment is really positive. So you know, I can see I can see it a lot of space for growth. It's such an interesting thing, you know, coming from, you know, playing in punk bands and all that sort of stuff. You know, which I'd still do if, you know if if there were the right people. But having people rock out with some blankets and pillows and beanbags. You know, maybe something that cover the eyes, and lay down and listen to music, like really listen to music is phenomenal, just like that, that concept. I love it so much. I mean, it's great to go out to venue and go and see live music and feel that high energy stuff. But it's also great to go within and to feel, you know, it's high, low energy, high energy stuff as well. And then there's also some more calming sort of energies. That yeah, so it's so amazing. And so mind blowing. It's a it's a thing, but yeah, I'm not glad that you had to go through what you had to go through to get there. But I'm very glad that you got that. Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know, I'm a very much very much, you know, you're gonna philosophize about, you know, the good and evil in the world. And you're sort of saying, Well, okay, well, there, there's, there can only be evil, if there's good, and there can only be good if there's evil. Otherwise, there's no any of that stuff. So yeah, I think that's that, that is sort of that. Yeah. You touched on earlier about having your studio. You only needed it since you became a parent. Yeah. Tell us about your your four lovely boys. Yes, sir. Thank you. I mean, incredibly exciting place to be. Yeah. Yeah. So my four boys are very energetic. They are very, very inquisitive. And they are very physical. Yeah, as well. So they can all play music. But whether they'll go down the music path, is there no, no one's chosen that as their main thing yet. That's so how do you feel about that? Well, I don't know. Well, you know, the eldest of 15. So I didn't really start playing. And, like, seriously until I was 12. My 12 year old can play as good as I could when I was 12. But, you know, whether he chooses, you have to have that. I mean, I had my friends, my friends were playing so I played, you know, so whether he can manage us to surround himself with other people that are thinking the same, which is going to be pretty difficult in the current state of music. In in the mount it's just that seems to be we were at this really high about two or three years ago, and now and now. Something's dropped out. And, and musics really taken a backseat and there's a there's a few there's definitely a few people in it in the education scene here that sort of don't see the importance of music and have seen that just sort of slip out from under us, which is quite significant. But you know, I'm not gonna blame it on the schools. You know, it's just it's just We'd have a cultural thing happening. What the way I sort of equation if you've got a town of our size, how many 1000? What are we got? 35? Last time I'll do is 2525. Okay, I'm getting excited. And we don't, yes, that's yours. We don't have a music shop anymore. You know, that just to me shows that we're the level of importance that, you know, that we play we're placing on it, you can't even go in the shop and get your guitar really strong anymore. You know, it's, it's a tough one, that one, you know, knowing the ins and outs of that business. And business business is, you know, we're talking about capitalism earlier. I know that's, you know, you can't give, give money away or, you know, lose money and just keep being a charity. But I just thought how can we not have a music show? You know, just Yeah. Really, it was it was? Yeah, it was heartbreaking for me to I mean, I remember looking at the Facebook posts and thinking, you know, it was almost like, lost, lost somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Had that had that feel about it? And because, you know, to me, the importance of, you know, a place like that is is, is for community. Yeah, but I understand, I understand. I mean, I fully understand what happened and why, you know, they had to shut up and close, but who knows. But that's not so bad community. Like we'd always put out if we had a gig, we put our posters up in there. We had our, like, my albums with Assange there. I could bring the guys when I, whenever I had trouble with our PA, I'd be like, Michael, why can't I get it to turn on? You know, they were just they're not just think. You know? Yeah, it does makes me sad. I mean, at the end there are they're all like students of mine. Yeah. Right. And yeah. You know, I've also, you know, they're not the first students to, you know, work there. So it gave them a bit of a rite of passage. I know that likes because you said like to do work experience there. And that's, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a shame, but I feel I feel that, you know, there's 25,000 people here, but musics just not big enough to sustain that type of thing. You know, but it's all goes back to how much importance do we want to put on music? You know, so, you know, with, with my boys, I know, I know, it's not right, to force anything onto them, because it's nothing forced onto them by Daddy's going to be cool. Not once they like once they hit the teenage years. Yeah. So they played in a band when they were like, in year five. They did like a talent show and are really, really good. Did you watch it? Yeah, they're very good. To me when I watched I don't know if it was just like a proud parent thing. But they made it look so bloody effortless. I must say your your kids doing things? Like very natural. And like, No one. No one was there when I worked with them for, you know, maybe five weekends in a row of working on this Boulevard of Broken Dreams, whatever. Some yeah, there's Boulevard of Broken Dreams, I think it was and put the staff that like the the work and effort that went into making that look like that was huge. You know, it wasn't that that was this easy thing. It was it was difficult. There was a lot of that when we're talking before about, you know, grit, there was a lot of grit. And that was really tired, grumpy children at the end of those sessions. So, you know, I'm hoping that I didn't ruin the experience for music because they didn't get to perform and yeah, but they didn't win. Say they won. But yeah, I think they made it look so easy that it just like, Oh, these guys. They're good. But so yeah, that's it's interesting. But, you know, with anything with with kids, you've got to let them find find it themselves and find that passion rather than live out. Your passion, you know, that lands on last thing. I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that parent that is living through their children. I don't want to be that person. So they can, they can do whatever they they like and do they listen to you like and value what you tell them? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I try until you know, Alex plays the bagpipes, right? Oh, yeah. And I think he chose that because neither Ben or I have any experience. Yeah. We kept doing this for years. I'd be like, Oh, do you want to play? You know, play the piano, and then be like, join play guitar? Nah, I don't want to do that. Now all of a sudden popped up the bagpipes. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's funny because um, You know, I've spent a fair bit of time with with the kids lately, due to COVID. And due to, we went to went to Melbourne, the other the other week, just me and the boys drive up in the morning and drove back in the evening. And it's funny, you know, when I'm with them, the conversations that we have can be quite intense, like, the other day, we were driving a football, and the conversation was about how everything came to be, you know, it was that deep. Yeah, it was, you know, okay, so science says there was a big bang, what was before the Big Bang? That's that type those types of questions. Yeah. You know, and that's the type of, I love having those conversations with the kids the whole big, expansive, mysterious, inquisitive style of conversations where we sort of just riff over things. You know, I was having having a chat to one of the elders the other day, and he was talking about and, you know, he gets through that stage where, I mean, schools always push your career path, and what do you want to be and all this sort of stuff. And he was sort of riffing riffing on that. And I said to him, do you want to do you don't want to? Because he's going to be say, said, like, you know, what? Would you rather? Would you rather me be a millionaire? Or would you rather, and be like an asshole? Or would you rather me be the guy that people come up and shake their hand says back now he's a good bloke? And I said, Well, I can't say is that clear? Cap? Yeah, you know, I can say that. You should think about, you know, what you want to do in the world by asking yourself? What type of contribution can you make to humanity? And if you can answer that question, then that's going to put you on the right path to where you want to go. Because that's sort of you know, that's what it's all about. You know, so you could, you can become a millionaire doing that, or you can become a millionaire, being self centered and thinking, it's all about me, and just wanting to climb the ladder and step on whoever I need to decline that letter, wherever I'm going, you know. But at the end of the day, you know, you got to be happy with who you are, and, and what you're doing in the world. So, yeah, they listen to that side. That's a lot. I love that sort of stuff. They may not listen to me when I say you dirty, go and have shower, please. Yeah, it's time for bed. Or we just said he's ready. You know, they might not listen as much, but they certainly listened to those big questions, but they don't. They go off and they ponder, yeah, that sort of thing. And so I'm really impressed that particularly they do that. So that's, that's really good. And, you know, even my youngest, we talk about all different types of things. He's, he's, he's into wondrous things. So you know, if there's a great sunset, I'll call him out or so we're gonna go and have a look at it. We've been what we've been looking at how, you know, I mean, I can't because, I mean, the weather's shitty, but it's rainbow season. Yeah, you know, and been looking at the angle of the eyes compared to wherever the rain might be to the sun. You can you can predict where these rainbows are gonna come and then you can see them before they even arrive. Yeah, and we've been, you know, get excited. Over there. Is that is that is that going to turn into a rainbow? Yeah, is if you can, that's that's pretty cool. So I love doing that type of thing. You know, there's really really sporty so they're, they're very focused on sport. And I think you know, my wife's very, very that was her type of upbringing as well country sport. Where I was city kid, so I was into music and then hanging out with my mates and being hoodlums. There's plenty of that going on in the country. Yeah, there is there is bad The twins have got a year before they get a license. So yeah. I'll have I'll have less to worry about if they're more like their mother. stories with you from Ben. Yeah, So is it important to you that your boys see you as more than I don't say just dad, because, you know, you're not just you do a lot of other things is important that your children say that do you feel? I think I think if we talk about, I think if we talk about contributing to society, if there's one thing that I would like them to do is to, you know, contribute to helping others. Your positive. So, that's something that's important that they see me being that, that positive change that you want from other people, you know, and doing all those those things that, you know, that you put in being like a helpful client, you know, all that sort of thing. That's important to me, they see that and they take that bet on all those positive aspects to life, I guess, not worried about, you know, often think about, you know, winning in our head is that, how does that how does that how does that impact the kids, you know, they streamed it live in their classroom and all that sort of stuff. You know, because I don't put much emphasis on on awards, you know, for them, and grades and that sort of thing, because it's not really about that. But there I am winning this big award. Yeah. How does that how does that how does that factor in NSO competitive? So I don't have the answer to that. But it is something that I have thought about, like, ah, yeah, wow. I wonder how that's going to impact them. But I guess also, if they see how you deal with that, too, like, they don't see you wandering around the streets going, Hey, look at my art, you know, what I mean? Like that you can achieve something and receive something and be rewarded for your work, but not make a, you know, a song and dance about us? Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, we have the odd conversation about how like, it's the best qualification ever. Looks good. I thought I can I can, I can literally argue to anyone about music now. What do you have in our particularly music education? Yeah, there's all these people that are way more trained than I am in music, education. They don't have an art. Here we are saying how modest I am. So always a joke. And it's always it's always it's always good fun. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's important. You know, I want them to be I want them to be good people. And, yeah, I want to, yeah, I want them to make positive contributions, I think, you know, it's, it scares me that the world is so messed up. And that they, they are going into, they're going to grow up into a world that needs action. We've all we've all the, you know, all the crappy things that has been done to it. And, you know, it's still being done to it, you know, so, I'd love for them to be part of the solution of whatever that is. And I don't think shooting off to Mars is the solution. But yeah, but they're the types of things like humanity actually needs to look after each other and, you know, get back to relationships and don't get political. But, you know, we vote reverse voting in the Labour government and labor is for the people. I think there's this big change about, you know, looking after each other, you know, social housing and looking after elderly and childcare and like, just getting back to basics. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, there's a Yeah, yeah, there's a and there are a lot of there are just a lot of systems that, that aren't working, you know, in our society. And I think they need I think they, there's a lot of systems that need overhauls and they need to read they need rethinking? Yeah. So, you know, there's, there's so many, and, you know, if we, if we went into that mindset, you know, if of of looking after each other and humanity and relationships and not perpetuate the classes, which, you know, I believe that schools will perpetuate classes, you know, these people are going to go off and have these topics Little jobs in the majority of you probably the in the middle here, and then some of you fail and be down the bottom. And, you know, you'd be delegated to not having a job or having really low wage or whatever it is, you know, we can patch right that in the school, there's no need to do that, if we focused on relationships, and we were looking after each other, and that would be less likely to happen. Yeah, that's, that's pretty scary. That, you know, that that's literally meant probably begins before, but that's, you know, where people learn how to treat each other, and how, where they're going to be in the world. And that's a difficult thing to shake. If someone already thinks that they're wherever, you're not going to change from that. Yeah, I mean, any of us can think back to school. And, you know, like, once it's over, you've only got those, those bits and pieces that stick with you, you know, the rest of it sort of just falls away, you know, didn't matter. You know, it didn't matter. It didn't matter who was popular. It didn't matter what you learnt in geography, you know, but what mattered was how you felt. And that's what sticks with you. So oh, shoot at school. So did you have a good time? I feel good, right? Yeah, yeah. I failed. I did school at the end of year 11. First time, I went back and did the 12. But anyway, did shoot. I found music and they, they found easy. They should be telling people Yeah. Well, it's important to know, no, it's actually important. Because, like, if I had thought that, oh, my god, I gotta do music. I must be crap. If I had thought that, then I wouldn't have the life. You know, I just had the foresight to know that I was actually good at music, but I just didn't want to do what they wanted me to do. You know, I didn't. I wasn't interested in theory, because that's not what that's not what was, I was inquisitive about. I was inquisitive about the skill set. And I was inquisitive about how I could get better at playing my instrument. That's all I wanted to know. Yeah. And, you know, and I was a guitar player, so that that theory, stuff didn't have didn't bounce off me very well. And it was taught like shit, oh, my God. You know, theories theory is not very boring at all. But the teachers continue to teach it in such a boring fashion. It's actually really exciting theory is really musical theory is really, really exciting. But it's, it's, it's very, you know, you've got special teachers out there that can do it beautifully. But that's not how I was taught. So I just didn't listen and probably didn't go to class and that sort of thing. So that's how that's how it is, you know, so it was one of the, like I said, it's one of the reasons why I became a teacher to be because, like, I knew something had to be wrong with music, or I'm sorry, something had to be wrong. We let go because I was, I knew I was good at music. There was I wouldn't listen to my English class because I was too busy looking at the glossy pages of guitar magazine then again, same music and like, yeah, I just knew that that that wasn't me. That that was the system. Yeah, I was. Yeah, yeah. And I was just ready to give the whole world the middle finger then. And, and I didn't went up and got an apprenticeship and yeah, it just took me a little while to get back to I just need to spend my days you know, doing stuff and dreaming about songs. Yeah. So yeah, I drink Oh my God, when I get home, I'm gonna I'm gonna write this song. It's been in my head all day. But I wouldn't do it. But it was it was in my head. Yeah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom. I also name and so when I talk to my moms on this show, we talk about this thing called mum guilt. So this idea that mums should exist for their children, and if they do something for themselves, they should feel guilty about that or they should feel bad if they don't think do things right and bring that in air quotes based on you know, society's expectations of what a mum should be when management. And I've been like asking deaths then. Do you have a Thoughts On a thing? Is there a thing of dead guilt? Do you experience those sort of emotions of You know, the pressure is on you as a dad, to whatever roles in your family, you've got to fulfill that. And if you don't, you know, how does it make you feel? Is that something that you've sort of never encountered? Um so I would say that I've never encountered dad guilt. But I've definitely encountered husband guilt. You know, it's a I know, I know, my wife is relentless in what she does around the house. You particularly washing is huge, because yeah, it was it was a big family. It's just It's endless cycle and you live in Mount Gambier, and there's no way to dry it and that sort of thing. So there's always washing hanging from the wherever, yeah, it's like a cave of washing all the time. So you know, there are times there are times where, you know, I think, oh, maybe I should pitch in there a little bit more, and that sort of thing. So that's it. But not as a parent, there's nothing, there's no, there's no, I don't feel, you know, I think I do as much as I can say, and then when I do as much as I can, as much as I think I can, that's probably a better way to explain it. So then I don't feel guilty when I'm out doing my own thing. Yeah. And also know that the important that like, see, it's a you know, you have to sacrifice your time, every now and then to do things for yourself, and you have to sacrifice time to do things for your kids. And, you know, time time is. Okay, and you're gonna get to this because you posted a really interesting post today about time or Yeah. Well, that's the time is three, but how do you spend it? Yeah. And then, and then, yeah, you talking about the quote that I posted? Yeah. Like it read that book. Yeah, the time is precious. Yes. Yeah. It's pretty cool. I love the quote from that book of the, the, the, the Emerald Tablets, and, and, you know, it's like, time does not move. But yet we move through time. It's like, whoa, that's pretty cool. You know, and, you know, we exist as events in time, our consciousness exists it as events in time. But yet, all time is at once. It's about Yeah, so it's, it's such a mind blowing time is mind blowing. And which is, this is the thing. So, you know, when we talk about music, and we talk about rhythm. So rhythm is just fractions of time divided. Okay. And then if we keep going, and we keep dividing and dividing and dividing, dividing, divided by the value, that we get pitch, and then pitch and how fast how fast, you do want to play with the sound waves, because you know, and it's like, and then you keep going, going, going, going, going, you'll get light. And so, you know, so that's, that's the thing, because quantum physics, this is a thing, like when we talk about light frequency, you know, we talk about sound frequency, we're talking about how fast things are vibrating. And, you know, so it's, that's pretty, pretty interesting. I love that sort of stuff is so cool spins. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, part of the reason why I've reposted that is is, you know, something that we really have to be mindful of, and I have to remind myself all the time, is the amount of distractions. You know, it's like, it's like, we almost live in a society that is just distractions, everything's a distraction. So you would have be, whether it be on TV or on your phone, definitely the Doom scrolling is a distraction, but it's not just the phones, it's, it's like, it's, it could be it's your job, it's whatever it is distracting you from me, you know, distract me from being present. And we're coming back to the relationship stuff before just being present with you know, and we're all guilty of, of being distracted while while a loved one wanted us. And, you know, we were so into it, we're into a rabbit hole. We're like, well, hang on, don't interrupt me because I'm so into this distraction. So, you know, I've been thinking about distractions a lot and being present and you know, and that fact that you can't, you know, you can't get you can't get that back. You can't get that time that being present with somebody. If you're fully there with somebody and you know who Oh, that person is, you know, you can, you know, that moment is going to be as precious as I said we're going to be. But if you're distracted, then you know, that moment. There's lost. Yeah. So and that's it and that you can't get that target time back. Yeah. Yeah, you can't get it back. It's gone. So, but you can be there with it when it's happening. And that's a that's a, that's such a, you know. That's they, that's what they should be teaching in schools. But instead, instead of my kid came home the other day, and he goes, Dad, that I learned something that at school, I'm like, Oh, what do you learn? He goes, if I have my left hand in my hoodie, I can actually be on my phone in the middle of the class and the teacher. Right? It was Yeah. And misaligned even sees and I'm like, Wow, you did learn something today. You know, it's like, yeah. So But isn't it great that I that now you're literally in the trenches? Now you're teaching the teacher? I'm gonna say teaching the teachers, you're sharing your experience with it? Yeah. Yeah. And allowing that to change it from the inside. Yeah, it's the ultimate sort of Gotcha. Isn't it? Like, haha, I'm right here now. Yeah, doing this, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it is. I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it was, it's, it's, it's, you know, we talk about, you talk about imagination. And if you, I was reading, I heard quote, the other day of something he was about, you know, if you're imagining something, you're literally bringing it into existence. So it's like a movie for the premiere of a movie. So just like that ARIA thing came into existence, you know, me being a crack in the system, sort of manifested over time, because that was where, you know, your life had some intellect. So if you have positive thoughts about about where the future could be, you know, then most more than likely, you're gonna end up, you know, in that in that scenario, some one way or another. Yeah, it just seems to be like that. But if you're if you're always, you know, negative, and you have that negative, and I was like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna have anything after this finishes and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's the type of thing you sort of manifest and then all of a sudden, you don't have anything. Yeah, you make your reality happen. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. It is in positive ending, it is. You know? And, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's the way it is, there's always there's always someone that's going to have an easier path. There's always someone that's going to have a tougher path. Yeah, I'm going back to when you had to have the twins? And how did your sort of concept of yourself your own identity change when you became a dad? When I think back to those hazy times, it is a bit of a haze. We don't know what it was like to have one kid. So you know, it was always too. And. And, you know, it was just asking about Gambia, so there was no, there was no real like family network that was able to be here. So it was very tiring. And it was very, I don't think the concept of myself changed at all. One thing that I wasn't ready for is like, when my wife was pregnant. I remember. I mean, at first, the first looking after looking after this, this unborn baby here, scared that something was going to happen, you're scared that, you know, eat the wrong food, or whatever it was. We actually got a phone call from the doctor 20 weeks into the pregnancy, and it was something's something's happening this, we've got some results that are that don't look very, very promising. That's like the chromosome test. And so we had this conversation about, you know, what, what would happen if if this was the case, you know, and so and it was, it was quite foreign. But we hadn't had a ultrasound yet. And so when we went to the doctor, put on the ultrasound, and he goes, Well, you went for an amniocentesis that needle thing. And the doctor goes, well, here's your baby's heartbeat. It goes on. See this thing? Here's your other baby's heartbeat and he was gone. Oh my God, we've just gone from thinking something's wrong with the baby to we're having another baby. So it was in May. It was that was a roller coaster. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, really exciting. hugely exciting. I mean, I was excited to have twins. But me as a person It didn't change. I felt, I felt great because, you know, because I felt like me. I didn't feel any pressure to be a different person. I was already a teacher, so I had that experience with older kids. You know, I wasn't much of a colicky sort of guy, you know, sort of like the girls had a baby or something like that. I'd be like, Yeah, I can keep the baby. I still am that guy. I'm still around, you know. But yeah, it was different when when are my own? So you know, I guess you just have so much love for the kids that. I mean, yeah. So it was probably wasn't a thing. My identity probably wasn't much of a thing to me at that time. And that it was just his head down. You know, it was go, it was because it was go all the time. And there was no time to do anything else. But do parenting. Yeah, really. In that time there was work. And then there was parenting. And there's probably a little bit of sport that went on as well. And so there was a lot of juggling between my wife and I and all that stuff. But yeah, I think I remained reasonably intact. I still saw myself as an immature young boy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It probably wasn't until I turned 50. Where I've gone might not be that little immature like 16 year old that you've always thought you'd been even in your 40s. Again, time it's a it's an interesting concept. Like, you just think I don't feel any different to how I've always felt my whole life. But I look different. People think you'd be different because you're getting older, but you just feel exactly the same. Yeah, it's such a weird thing. Yeah, it's yeah, it's still that same inside of your consciousness, you still that same person that you were, you know, you read my report, remember, read my report, when I was in primary school, still, they still that kid, probably distract the class less. You know, I still got the if I'm in a big crowd that when we have in front of someone who is trying to do something, you know, still feel the urge to distract people because I'm distracted. You know, I talked about distractions before, but my brain is distracted all the time. With whatever. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So when did you then we were able to point to things to sort of sit down with the boys and you're able to get back into your music. So what happened was it was being organic, really. I was just thinking, what? When was it that happened? So the what happened was, it was the first time where as for sort of, we'd bought a house, we bought a cheap house was getting a pretty good wage. And I remember buying a guitar. As a first it was a guitar that I wanted ever since I was a kid. And I had the money to buy it. And it was all systems go and bang, I bought it. That really sparked my, my interest. And then what I did was, as soon as, as soon as that comes back to you, you know, after you've had your head down for so long, and the kids were still, you know, that one, the red one then, and maybe a little bit younger. But you know, but the first six months is head down and get, you know, you're doing literally everything for kids. Yeah, everything except for breathing. Yeah. And I ended up enrolling in this online course at Berklee School of Music, which is orchestrating for film and TV. And that's where I did all my theory chops and all my orchestration skills and everything like that. And I found that, you know, in in looking back on that, that kitten that certainly kept me grounded through that period of parenting with music connected with music, and ended up landing me the job because then I had some sort of qualification behind me. That wasn't just education based. So, you know, that was sort of worked in really beautifully. And then we only had two years before we got the next one. So you know, and then it was head down again. And, you know, I don't remember, like the specifics of that time. I've kept a journal of that sort of stuff. And so, you know, you can look back at those times. I know looking at the videos that our house is trashed, like, you know, as soon as, you know what we had for under four under four, definitely for under five anyway, the house, you know, and my kids always doing shows and, you know, show means that you have to have a Stage and Stage means you have to have every blanket in the house draped over chairs, and you have to buy the tickets and all that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a theatrical production. That's right. It's funny, it's funny, but it's and all the toys and you just get toys. And then they have a birthday and you get more toys. And they're like, you know, so. I know, when we had that first lockdown. Last, we decided that we tried to start to declutter, and so we had so much stuff that so much stuff. Oh, my God, particularly, particularly out toys and stuff like, that the kids really didn't really play with. There's a few toys they played with. But you know, there were there were definitely like cardboard box kids. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's something that's. Yeah, that said, you know, we talk about capitalism and consumerism. And at the end of the day, all they needed was a cardboard box. It's the old joke, isn't it? Like you give the kid for the Christmas present. And I play with the wrapping bag. Like, it's just like, the whole thing just frustrates me. I was on the airplane come back from LA the other day, and I was thinking, how did it all start? Like, how did it actually start? That that became important? And then what role is advertising played in, in that to get inside people's minds and make people think they need to have this and they have to have this? And you know, I love madmen. That's one of my favorite TV shows. Okay. Some, it's based in the 50s. In the 60s, in New York City, it's an ad agency. And like, you sort of think, when you watch it, I don't know how much of its true. But you think, well, that's why we all want such and such because somebody told us we, you know, I just, I, I wish I would understand more about it. Like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's super powerful psychology, you know? Yeah. And it's all it's all to make make people money. You know, that's, that's what it is. It's about, you know, who wins, wins, wins the most whatever, you know, but, you know, it goes that I don't know how we got how we got there, you know, you know, it's a, it's a strange thing, you can have everything you want, without having that. But, you know, I heard a good story about that the other day, you guys can't put it into context of something about this guy's fishermen. And you know, he did official day, and get all this beautiful fish and take 100 His wife and make love to his wife and his beautiful, beautiful life. And one day, this other, this other person comes along and says, Well, why don't you? Why don't you fish like this. So you can then sell, you take some of the fish, and then you can sell some of the fish. And with that money you buy given so you buy a bigger boat, and then you can do more more fishing and get more efficient, and you can buy fleet of boats, and then you know, and the guy will go, okay, and then what would I do? Yeah, you know, then you can franchise it out. And you can, you know, have an international cooperation, you want to learn what I do? Yeah. But at the end of the day, you know, he already he goes, Why would I want to do that already? Has every you know, because yeah, then what would you do? Well, you can have everything you want, because I've already got everything I want. And that's that type of thing. Yeah. Where we don't think like that, as a society. You know, there's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure to be thinking about, and schools do it. So let's do it right at the beginning, what are you going to be when you grow up? Yeah, you know, yeah, it's like, and the answer is, well, I'm going to be me, when I grow up. That's true. That's what I'm going to be I'm going to be me, you know, I'm not defined by what I do. You know, I'm not defined by I'm not defined by, you know, being working in a cafe or that doesn't define me, you know, not even being on stage defines me. I'm just me. You know, there's just trying to put my best self forward to the world and you know, that's, that's not what we teach. We teach, you know, you've got to get this job. If you don't do this, then your options are. Oh, you know, it's like, what complete bullshit. Actually, your options are. What Yeah, whatever you want to make them to be like and Your options can be anything you want to have to school. So that's why I keep telling Alex, like, he's at that point now, like choosing subjects for what you want to be when you grow up. And I just keep reminding him that I found the best job I'd had. Up until recently, only nine years ago. And about three months ago, I found the best job that I've ever had in my life. You know, like, you just cannot expect someone to know at that point in their life, anything about the job they're going to do? Because they haven't been in the world and experience things and seeing what they might like or might not like, yeah, how can you? How can it's all this towards this end goal? I can't, like have these experiences as they're going through, you know, each day be? What are we going to do today? That's going to be great, rather than let's look 30 years in the future and see what's gonna happen there. And you miss out on all this? What's in front of you? Yeah, yeah, that's right. And, you know, the subject selection in my eyes should be about whatever makes you happy. You know, what, what you think you can be, you have the most fun or that sort of stuff. You know, not because all your mates are doing it. But you know, kids want to do that they want to do something, because they might spend that not might not be the best thing for them to do. Not not not in every circumstance. And I my children would literally choose something because they might so doing it. But I'd rather than that I'd rather than go or what is my interests? Yeah. Where does that lie? Like, who cares about if it's going to lead to whatever, because you can do that later anyway? No, it's not. Nothing's finite. Oh, that's it isn't? Yeah. And that's what I did. You know, I 24 years old, or whatever I was did the stat test. So instead of slugging over a year of year 12, I did a two and a half hour test. And you want to know, yeah, I'm a teacher. Yeah. Got a degree? Yeah. Yeah. Now that's like, yeah, I say now, it's just he was saying, What do you want me to do when I grow up? And I'll say the same thing, like, whatever makes you happy, you know, been to financial planner. So he brings that other side of all, we have to have enough my live on? Yes. One that I know that. But you still have to enjoy yourself every day. You know, you have you actually have to have a reason to get out of bed and think What am I going to do today? That's, you know, contribute to the world? And I don't know. Yeah, well, that means I. Yeah, that's, uh, yeah, putting through and that's that thing about being an artist, you know, I'd love to be an artist, but I can't put the food on the table, the practicalities of you have mouths to feed. You know, I could do it. I could, you know, I'd be quite happy living out of like, a tiny house and off grid or whatever, just to start and just doing sound and stuff like that. But you know, when you have responsibilities, responsibilities, when they all move out? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I've kind of finished asking the main questions aren't cool. Do you have anything else you wanted to share? around this topic? That's sort of on your mind. Oh, we've been quite we've talked about life universe and everything. We have covered a lot. Yeah. I mean, it's probably important to it's probably important to note that you know, the partnership I have with with my wife is that she's, she's, she's not creative, you know, she's practical. And and that sort of makes for a you know, this stability in particularly in my sort of crazy stinking start type of thing so that's probably something that's that's worth that's worth mentioning that that sort of made it work may will gave me the the license to be creative as well. To know that that practical side of things getting looked after and you know, finances and all that little that type of thing so that's probably something that's that's helped a lot throughout the throughout the child rearing years as well and having you know, and also she's really good at this because the full boys there's so much stuff on and someone's got to be here and someone's got to be Oh, yeah, yeah. And and there's and there's excursion on this day, and then there's a carnival over here and then there's we have to go away for six hours or whatever it is all those types of things. You know, she manages all of that. I don't really want I'd just you know, it's literally Ah, you What's going what's happening? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that's been an important thing that's allowed me that's, that's, you know, I'm grateful that that's allowed me to have that. That license to think think out in the clouds and out in the cosmos wherever my brain goes while I'm trying to think of new ways to explore sound and music. So, yeah. Good on it. It to me it takes a team doesn't it? Like it's you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it would, you know, it's obviously much. I mean, it has its challenges as well. So you got to gotta acknowledge that it's, you know, that takes work. And it's not just something that sort of is something you just breeze through. Yeah. Conversation certainly change from talking about stuff to talking about children. Yeah. And yeah, that's it. And then you just go to sleep because it's stuffed Yeah. Plenty of times now where sleep before? Tick, they're older children. Yeah. And, you know, they're not too bad though. They're, they're pretty good at getting themselves to sleep. But they say teenagers have a completely different body clock. Yeah, they do. They designed. They're designed to, they're designed to and this is, again, you know, this SSID is strange. But yeah, teenagers are designed to get up later and go to go to sleep later and get up later. Yeah, that's what they're there's Cayden rhythms. That's what they're designed to do. Who knows what that's for? I don't know what that's for. I read any research. This is the thing, right? Like, this is the I was reading about this the other week. Because same thing, Alex is up, I go to bed, and he's up for like, 14, it was up to me. And it's like, what special pair I have these kids got that were stifling, because we're making them get up and go to school at eight in the morning. Yeah. What are they supposed to be doing with this? Well, you know, if you think about the way I like to think about these things, is that, you know, if humans have been around for like, who knows? Like, I'm gonna just pull out 100,000 years, you know, we've spent the last, you know, say 90 90,000 years in this evolving as humans like, that tribal sort of situation. And what were they what were the what were teenagers? Doing? Yeah. What is their role late at night, up until about 12 o'clock, when someone else might have taken over from whatever they were doing? Yeah, keeping the community doing something. Who knows? I'm just guessing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then we've just gone shook. Yeah, yeah. Everything we have. And we've, we've, we've, it's good. The cookie cutter, you know? And, you know, but it's funny, because, you know, we look, you look back to Pink Floyd the wall. And that's what that was all about, you know, and we're still I mean, we wrote a musical about Mark back, we wrote a musical about that, you know, and we wrote a musical about, you know, music had been ousted in society. And if you were caught playing music you'd be asked to do to wastelands. And, you know, and that all came from the psychological damage that this the leader of the community had as a child. Right. And that's pretty deep in US. Classic. It's classic. Yeah. It was, it was it was a classic show will well, quite intense about, about the system and the education system. And, you know, and the way that sometimes it gives, it also gives people interesting positions of power as well. And they might not always be the right person for that particular role that they're doing. And, you know, and everyone, everyone listening would have had that experience in schools, you know, whether, you know, whether it was a teacher, or somebody else but someone that was just abusing their, their power. And that's another interesting thing about because they're the school models in the world where the kids actually choose Is the employment that happens that that the school including the principal and everything that yeah, Sudbury schools? Yeah. And they don't have to study anything. They can spend their time playing video games if they choose where are the sky? And I don't know if there are any in Australia or not say, wow, there's interviews with schools and so some kids are works and doesn't work for all kids. But yeah, see, that's the thing isn't nothing's going to because there's not a one size fits. It's not a one size fits all. Yeah, well, you know, yeah, like, yeah, yeah. So So were you able to use your platform as like, writing these musicals to, to sort of I don't want to say we're putting ideas into children's head, but you were you were getting your ideas across of your thoughts of the schooling system and challenging and perhaps getting the kids to think about things a bit differently? Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Probably didn't think of it like that. But yeah. You know, that. What are we going to tell the kids? No, we wanted. So what we wanted, what we really wanted, when we did our musicals was that we wanted to, because I was sick of seeing these musicals that were meant for adults, you know, they were and you just see kids playing out our roles. And it's like, Well, it'd be, it'd be much more appropriate if kids could play kids roles. And what we wanted to do was empower kids in the musical. So the heroes, we're always going to be the kids, the kids save the day. And then all three musicals that we write kids save the day, because it's empowering for the kids. And they are, you know, most of them are playing kids. There's some kids that play on this, because you can't get around that. So that was the main thing. But yes, we were talking about, we're talking about issues that that we liked to talk about, that we were passionate about, you know, and the first one was the education system. The second, the second one was the earth. Yeah. And it was built around this story about some, some indigenous people were talking about the effects of uranium mining in Central Australia. So it was built around that idea. And then the third one was a multi storey development going to be built on top of this beachfront. And the kids are worried about their Lou's gonna lose their fish and chip shop. So and of course, there was a local environmental problems as well. And it was all about plastic. And that's the stuff. So we had stuff that we were sort of really passionate about, we wanted the kids to know about. And we wanted, you know, we wanted them to know that this is this is this is the world you growing up in. And there's no reason why you can't be a hero in that world. And that's sort of where we giving them the eight ships of agency that they can have an impact, even though in in the world set up of the adults are in charge, and the adults do everything. But the kids actually, they have so much power that they can, you know, bring? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, literally the kids, the kids are the future. So, I mean, you know, and we're stuffing up their world. Yeah, I mean, seeing Whitney Houston, yeah. But she was right, she was in school rock, Jack Black says that the staff, you know, teach them well and let them lead the way. Frequency Fridays, every second Friday, I'm going to be offering some type of sound bath at the inner Sanctuary Collective and be super reasonably priced. And the idea is to build a community around sound, which is when price gets so reasonably. And there'll be different things. But at the end of the day, you know, the themes are just there for a framework, you can come for any type of experience. I like that. I might have a, I might have a stillness theme where everything is going to be a bit still or might have an electric theme or everything's going to be electric. You just see where it takes you. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm pretty excited about that. That's, you know, I think that for it to happen, I need to I have some consistency. So you know, try and offer it. Yeah, every fortnight. Yeah. And yeah. And if people want to find out which fortnight so you're just hitting me up on Instagram is the best thing to do. So, yeah, I'll put the links in the show notes. Yeah. today. Thank you so much for coming on, Scott. It's been an absolute pleasure. I've really enjoyed this chat. We've gone to some deep, interesting places, and I've really enjoyed that. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. My pleasure. Have a lovely day. You know, just have a feeling. Yeah, let the conversation sort of late itself. So yeah, very grateful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Bianca Morra US photographer + podcaster S2 Ep58 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Bianca Morra, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland Ohio and a mother of 2. Throughout her schooling Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path. Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg and his series Rich and Poor, and it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than a pretty picture, it could be used to convey and tell stories. Feeling inspired, she went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography and Digital Imaging with a minor in Business Art and Design. After Bianca's employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business, She works as a professional photographer capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more, through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take photo, at any time, and for mums to get in the photos too. Bianca has created the Help Me See podcast - where she holds vulnerable, real conversations challenging the cultural norm & empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as an intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favours helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just seeing it. Above all else she believes that photographing your life is a not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now, as we take each photo. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, post natal/partum depression ** I like your work podcast / Monika Crowley's work / Grace Tame Bianca Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. My guest this week is Bianca Mora, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland, Ohio, and Bianca is a mom of two boys. throughout school, Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path, Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg, and particularly his series rich and poor. And it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than just a pretty picture. It could be used to convey and tell stories. She went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida, where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in photography and digital imaging with a minor in business, art and design. After Bianca is employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business. She works as a professional photographer, capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take that photo at any time. And for mums to get in the photos to. Bianca has created the podcast called helped me see where she hosts vulnerable, real conversations, challenging the norms and empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favors helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just saying it. Above all else. She believes that photographing your life is not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now as we take each photo. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around mental health, postnatal depression, and anxiety. Today's episode you'll hear music from my trio called LM Joe. We create ambient and new age music, myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and you can find the links to listen to more in the show notes. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you. Or from the resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be accessed by the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, from the second I just read the title of the podcast when I first became aware of it. I was like, Well, I mean, the most perfect thing ever right up my alley. Oh, that's brilliant. So we're about to you in America. I am about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Right. So where's that in relation to? I don't know. What's a big city that I know New York. Where is it new in realize now it's seven hour drive from New York? Ah, okay. So it's sort of sort of in the ballpark. there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So what's it like over there at the minute is you're coming in to use spring it was summer, spring now. It's definitely getting warm that I feel like we skipped spring and headed straight to summer for some reason. It was like blistering cold and now all of a sudden, it's like super humid. Right. So what sort of degrees like daily temps to get there? We've been around from 70s to 80s in the last few days, but I don't know it's pretty turbulent. It really wavers. Yeah, right. I'm just gonna look at what that is. is in Celsius. So fair. I have this thing where I like I have a I've always been like, are 20? About 21? Yeah, that's nice. I like to know about people's weather. I don't know, it just helps me put things in context, if I can visualize and feel myself in, is I understand what your place is like. Oh, totally sure thing I've always done. And it's, it's weird, but I don't know, it's just one of those things. Like, I just want to know, when you wake up, do you put on a sweater or shorts? Let's see these in that. Yeah, you can feel like I can. Yeah, I want to say I can make a judgment about a face because that's not really true. It's very superficial. But you know, you can get a feel for a place if you sort of get the vibes. What's happening? Yes. You're a photographer and a podcaster, can you share with us what you do how you got into it, I never in a million years planned on creating a podcast at all. It wasn't something that I had planned to do. Basically, last year, about two weeks into my maternity leave, I got laid off from my full time job. And I really didn't see coming like, at all you'd like to think that. And I was there for about six years. And you'd like to think that you would kind of get a sense for it. And when I didn't, I felt very whiplashed I felt so something changed. And I knew that for the tail end of my employment there, it had turned into something that I didn't love. And I knew I wanted to make the switch, eventually to be full time on my own. But I didn't expect the rug to be pulled out from under me. So it was like a little bit of a humbling experience, but also an experience of if I could work that hard and be that loyal, and you know, kind of put that much energy in this one life that I have into someone else's venture, then I certainly can do that for myself. So you know, by the end of it, it was like, Oh, do you would you like to reapply blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what? No, I'm gonna double down on myself. At the worst possible time, we had just moved into my new house, our first house ever second baby, you know, it was just of all the times to take the plunge. But you know, in some ways, I feel like it was the best possible time to take the plunge. Because if I wasn't going to do it at the most uncomfortable than what was going to make me do it, you know, otherwise. So? Yeah, that's it. Because when things are really good, you're not your brains not going there is it's Yeah, yeah. Happy. And yeah. Have you had experience in, like photography and that sort of stuff? Like growing up? Or how did you get into that? Yeah. So I was, I really got into it in high school, I was taking all of like, the advanced placement classes, and like the calculus and the English, and it was just what I was doing, but I knew that the only class that I really loved was my photography class. But for some reason, there wasn't. It just didn't occur to me, it didn't dawn on me that I could pursue that it was just like, oh, but that is just too good. This too fun. And I didn't really take it like seriously as a career path. And then I had happened upon Do you know who Jim Goldberg is? He's a documentary photographer, and I happened upon his work. And I remembered specifically because it definitely was a moment where I felt like my brain changed. Like, it was like a, you know, one of those electric moments, where and it was particularly the series he did on the rich and poor, and it were these black and white photographs. They were just very honest, looking at the camera, and then he would hand it to them and have them just write something about what they thought about the photo. So it was just this moment where I was like, oh, like photography can be more than a pretty picture. Like it was just it seems very trivial, but it was a huge moment for me and my brain. And so after that I decided to go pursue it in college. So I went to a private art school, a Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota, Florida, and I graduated with a BFA in photography in digital imaging with a minor in Business art and design there and so yeah, that's that's my background and I had I mean, I had been photographing since you know, I could get those digital or those disposable cameras in a very composed The way I, I say that when I was in middle school, there was this moment of me laying in my bed, looking at the ceiling about to fall asleep, where I think the concept of death just dawned on me as well. Things kind of dawn on me like a two boys. I remember thinking about, you know, just like nothing mattering. And I don't know, something just panicked in me. And I felt like, oh, I need to make things to let people understand how I feel about them, I need to make things because eventually, what I think and feel might not matter, like my favorite color, and my favorite band, like might not matter. But whatever I make, can be left behind. So I very much became a maker from that point. Do you find when you watch movies, that you can't just watch it, you have to like find the deeper meaning in everything. Like, it's just I have to I honestly, I have like two modes. I either I have to watch the very, very, like easy to watch like Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the you know, deep emotion, or I'm in the depths of No, I don't know, I I I think I'm I just this past year became familiar with the term HSP highly sensitive person, I really think that I'm like, like, medically that I can't even if I know it's not real, and it didn't happen. I carry it like an anchor on my chest for like weeks. So I have to pick and choose my intake. Yep, no, I can relate to that. It's like that empaths sort of energy where you take it in. And it's like you're experiencing spirit experiencing yourself. Like, I can't listen to like true crime or anything like that. Because I can visualize myself and feel myself in the position of that person. Both people like the victim and the perpetrator. Like, I just can't do it. It's too much. Yes, yeah. And I dropped my sister mad when we watch movies, because there's darkness and she's up there like the I don't know, I can. Yeah. Settlers my, my partner, he is a computer animator. So if we're ever like watching a Pixar movie, or something we'll be watching and be like, Do you know how hard it is for them to do those bubbles. And like a few of us it's really, it's really should be hilarious. And it's like, you're gonna give it to us about your bubbles. Like, oh, my gosh. So I heard about this exercise to like write a letter to someone that inspires you deeply. And then to someone that drives you nuts and to after you're done writing it, change the name to your own name, and then read it again. And, gosh, I want to give credit where it's due, I believe it was on a podcast called I like your work. Yeah, I believe that's what it was. And I was like, that sounds so interesting. So I was in my studio. And I just started writing a letter to this photographer that I loved so much. And I was like bawling, like by myself up and he's like, passed like he passed young. I never met him no exposure to him. But for some reason I feel this like, deep soul connection to him. Anyway, but it made me want to get a tattoo for him because I a few years ago, I purchased a book of his on eBay. And I could have gotten it brand new. But I chose to buy the one that he signed, but he labeled it to bill. And I was like how could bill sell this? He touched it. He taught like I was like, No, I want it. I don't care if it's effed up like I want to have the book that he touched in some way like that. I don't know I carry something for me. So it was like if I get like a a tattoo that said Dear Larry love Bill Oh my gosh. Oh, fat. It reminds me I had a conversation the other week with a lady who's a potter functional product, but she also does some ceramic stuff. And we're talking about how, when you pick up a piece of pie, I've got a not a sugar bowl, what's it called a fruit bowl. And when I pick it up, sometimes I put my thumb in the same spot where there's an indent of the thumb of the person who made it. And it's just that incredible connection. Like, oh, I just spins you out. Like, I just love that, that. Yeah. That just gave me goosebumps. Ah, yeah. Tell us more about your podcast, what it's called, and what you do, and all that sort of stuff. So the podcast is called helped me see. And it it's funny, because it's probably the least planned thing I've ever done in my life. And it continues to be that. And I know that it has to be that for me to continue doing it. So helped me see is all around just having very real and honest and vulnerable conversations, you know, much like you do here, you know, challenging norms. And also just trying to make sense and meaning out of these, like, these feelings that we have that we swear we know better, but we can't help but have and like the wavering of it, and the waffling of it. And so I do have guests on the show. But I also do a lot of solo episodes that are just basically like my audio diary recordings of me just talking about the things that really rev me up. And I would say that one of the, although my focus is in Photographic Arts, and I really have a strong passion point for kind of reimagining the way that we think about our photographs and the way we photographs or our lives. I would say one of the main driving forces of me, being so radically transparent with my own feelings is when I had a bout with postpartum depression. And after my first child, and I was just so taken aback and kind of mad at no one and everyone, I felt like so shocked that I could feel this bad and not have had any sort of exposure to it. Like I and I feel like it is getting better. I do feel like I maybe it's the algorithm, I don't know. But I feel like I'm seeing so much more just like honest sharing. But I think that I just felt so shocked that I was so shocked by how I felt and didn't see it coming at all that I was like, I will never, I will never hide my truth, even if it helps one person. Like I remember coming back from maternity leave. And you know, people were so innocent and welling, well intentioned, but would be like, Oh, that must have been so lovely. And I was like, No, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. And I could see them be uncomfortable. But I had to I had to just be honest, because, you know, that's how I know. That's how I got there. So you know, that person innocently having that exchange with me? If I were to have, you know, glazed by it, perhaps they might be more apt to experience that. So, you know, I love that. Yeah, because I think I have had my own experience with postnatal depression as well. And it's really important, I believe, for what you're doing and what I attempt to do as well to normalize these emotions, that it's not bad, you're not a bad mother for feeling this way. It's a society has got this, this set of expectations of how you're supposed to feel. And I just want to smash them up and say that we can feel however, we want to feel how we need to feel and the more we talk about it, the better that we're all going to be because I think that's the thing the woman that said that to you might not have been a woman sorry. That's how she's been exposed to it. And probably the same thing has had people who maybe didn't have the courage that you did to say actually, no, that's this is not how it is, this is how it is, you know, this is reality. You know, if everybody goes around pretending that it's fine, then you know, it'll continue to be the way it is. Or has been. So yeah, good on you. I mean, in that it, it those are the more acute like I'd say heightened important areas but it, it is rampant. It's like when someone just says, Well, how are you? If you ever say anything other than fine or oh, great, then it's like, okay, that's too much. I just asked because it's a social norm, you're supposed to say, you the script, the script, you know, don't deviate from the script. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like the are there's a delay, I've just started following on Instagram. Who, I mean, there's a lot of women that are doing it now, which is great, you're basically telling it like it is, you know, I'm not a bad mother, because I, I got frustrated with my children today, because they wouldn't listen to me, you know, just just calling it out and saying, This is fine. This is life, and we're allowed to feel crap. You know, the thing that I found really challenging, when I was starting to tell people about my personnel depression is that I, no one said it to me, but I had this idea in my head that I should feel grateful that I was able to have children. So I shouldn't feel this way, you know. And, honestly, it's like, you cannot control the chemicals in your brain, you cannot control that, you know, I've had actually had someone tell me once that depression wasn't real, and I thought, you've never experienced it, you've got no idea, this woman that I met, that, that was reckoned through daily affirmations, you could keep yourself well. And I said to her short, that might be able to help with a low mood, you know, a bit of exercise never hurt anyone, you know, getting outside and talking yourself up a bit. That's great for low mood, but if you use you actually, physically in your brain, the chemicals are not doing what they're supposed to do, then you're going to experience an altered sense of reality. And that's the truth of it. You know, I feel like slapping this woman when she told me that I won't speak to her anymore, because it's like, how do you know, it's scary, it's scary that those those sentences can come out of, you know, because, you know, thank goodness that you have the understanding that you do, because I mean, the last thing someone needs is to feel even more isolated. And yeah, I definitely relate to what you were saying about oh, I should, all the things you should feel it's the least amount of helpful when I was going through it. I'm like, Oh, I'm not in the NICU. I was going through all the reasons why it didn't make sense. And I, you know, should be grateful that something that I was talking about recently is, you know, this, this not only toxic positivity, because I feel like that's was a huge thing for me. But also, I feel like the more nuanced version is weaponizing gratitude with yourself. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm grateful. Why am I feeling if I was more grateful, I wouldn't feel like this. And it's just the least amount of helpful thing ever. Oh, yeah. I want to mention a quote that I found through your Instagram, which was amazing, and I want to hear more about it. So you said the photograph is not just a souvenir to help you remember? Can you share more about that? And the sort of the deeper meaning behind that? Yes, it's strange to hear me quoted. I was like, what what did I say? Say your face you like? Yeah, the photograph is not a souvenir just to help you remember, I, I truly feel that. Photographs, although that is a huge benefit of them. It's not just something to help you remember, I think that it's something that can be used to help you engage more in your life. It's an active viewing and experiencing of your life. And I also there's no notion of, you know, a moment frozen in time, although it is very much an image that stays the same. The meaning transforms and transcends like, time and space. And you know, that staying the same, but we're continuing to grow our lives are changing circumstance, everything. So you can take a photo of something and feel a certain way about it. And two weeks later, a month later, 10 years later, feel completely different about it. First photograph is semi meaningless, and then all of a sudden, it becomes the most important thing because it's the last of whatever, you know, it's just this these magical little blips, I call them breadcrumbs for your life. because not only is it something that I believe to be like a form of acknowledging and, you know, being more present in the moment. But it's also this gift that you give yourself later in life to seek comfort, understanding, healing. I mean, just so much. There's just, it's just the whole world. I mean, that can dive into every nook and cranny. And it's incredible to me, because it's, you know, and I think that it's in today's day and age, it's almost being looked at as something that's like a gluttonous act. Right? Like, whenever you feel like the impulse to take a photo, it's almost like a shameful thing. Like, why can't I just be present? And that is like, yeah, yeah, that's my soapbox. Yeah. And this this thing that oh, you've always got your phone in the in your hand, because you're always thinking about a photo. Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to Yeah, hearing that. Feeling. Yeah. But I mean, you are your own internal compass. And I think that we are super sophisticated. And we know if it's coming to enough to distinguish where that's coming from, you know, if you are feeling the pressure to take a photo because of an expectation, or because you want to post it or, and you also know if it's a very organic spark that you just, it comes out of you. And it's before you even realize that your phone is out. And it's because you have this deep inner knowing that this is a moment for you. Like we see a bajillion things a day, like 360 degrees, like, if we're blessed with eyesight we see so much in a day. And when you have that spark of like, I want a photo of this. It is like a recognizing so many more levels into a moment than we I think we're aware of in that moment. It's like we're wise beyond her years. And, you know, if we just take the photo, even if it's a super snapshot, casual, not cute, whatever, I believe that those are breadcrumbs for leave or later for reason. I was thinking about this, leading up to talking to you I have I have a thing where I have to take photos of flowers, or what I see is intensely beautiful things. And I was thinking about it as you know, as I would because I think everything is that just because I like beautiful things? Or is it is there's something deeper in there. Like that they make me feel good. Or you know what I mean? Like it's not a frivolous thing. Like I was talking to one of the ladies on the mother world episode, Tasha was saying, like I have I collected a lot of artwork of, I'm not going to show you because it's an absolute mess. But I have a corner in my room where I put the proper artwork that real artists did that I put in frames, and I just I love having them. They're just so beautiful, and I love them. And she was saying how society can view beauty as a frivolous thing. You know, what's your take on that? I believe that. And also, Tasha is like a genius. I wish. I was like, I don't even understand the magic coming out of your mouth right now. I believe that we respond to things that we don't know until we know, I think that it's with the flowers, perhaps one day, okay, like, ah, that's why I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Like, I have these moments where I feel like I've had this incredible breakthrough. And then all of a sudden, I look back and I'm like, I've been doing the same shit for 20 years. It's just a different way. So far as to like, I think that what we're recognizing, and that the same way I feel about taking pictures like of your daily life, like whether it be a flower or whether it be a moment of your kids or whatever, not knowing what exactly you're responding to, until you look back at it from your bird's eye view and find that common thread and understand what it is you're responding to. You know, I just I don't know why this is making me think it's kind of it's similar but not exactly the same. I think about that photographer. I was telling you about my favorite photographer. Ever. I had this moment of like there's this other photographer that I usually am not like the biggest fan of his work. It's beautiful, but I found this one book of his and I was like oh my goodness like I'm I just have this and I didn't understand why. Because I'm like, he's not usually my fit might you know exactly for me, but this feels like, oh, and I open it. I could cry just talking about it. It freaked me out so much. I had no idea. Apparently, my that photographer that's my favorite Larry, she mentored him. And he specifically was the thank you for that book. I was sobbing, I was like, Are you kidding? Like, you can't make that up. And it's just what is for us is for us as for us, and the more we're able to like recognize it. I feel like the more we pull it in, which is why one of in my deep dive, of course, I made I late and it's all about this and our photographic tendencies, but it's called and some people, I don't know if I should change the title, because I feel like some people get confused by it. But it feels so true to what it does. I called it manifest your memories. Because I, I desire to help you just feel more confident in your ability to recognize your right moments, not better photos, not whatever. But the photos that are meant for you. Because once you know what your right moments are, you see more of them, and you create more of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah. When you're aware. And you you've got that in your mind. You're very conscious of it. And yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your course there. Can you share more about what you do in your career? You post creation in your education? For people? Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all about in uncovering of you. It really is. I know, it's, sometimes it takes me a bit to explain, because I think that because I'm a photographer, I think it's more expected that I'm helping you take better pictures, but really, it's helping you kind of understand what you're responding to, and what that process can give to you. Because it really can be depending on, you know, the emotional state you're in, you can take a snapshot, because you just want to quickly get it and just be in the moment or it could really be like inexperience, I think that we underestimate the amount of decisions we make, especially people that don't quote unquote, identify as creative, which is come on, I got a bone to pick with that everyone's creative. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yes. It's like all from the framing to the, you know, what, how far you're in or out, even if it's like an amateur, whatever. It's all very important, and just kind of helping us reimagine, and like gain a new respect and understanding for your unique vision of your life. Yeah, that's the thing I think you don't want to diminish, just because the photo might not be aesthetically perfect or pleasing or whatever, that does not diminish the fact that whoever took that photo was taking it for a reason that's relevant to them. Which, yeah, and I guess that's art, too. It's like, everything's subjective. You know, the person that painted something, was doing it for their benefit. They weren't doing it, to make it beautiful for you to put on your wall. Like, you know, everyone's got that meaning inside of them that comes out in their creativity. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was just talking to someone who like, just burst out crying because she was flipping through her phone and she had been somewhere and she just saw, I could cry, she saw a picture that her son had took of her that she didn't know he took, and it's just the thought of, it's enough to bring me to tears, you know, like it just everything has like boundless opportunities for like meaning and to touch you and you know, when I think about our, you know, the quality of like, professional photos or whatever I think about just the complete catalyst for my whole business, which was like the passing of my beloved dog. I say that his passing was like this completely unplanned, unintentional, like, confirmation of my whole concept of like, the work that I'm doing and everything that has come since then, because it was my first real death. It like close to me lucky enough. It was my end. It just happened last year. And it was when I went back to look through the archives of my photos of him. They it was the weirdest thing because if they function the way I thought they would, it was like Yes, this is what I encountered like this fear I carried with me for so long of losing anyone and him. I was interacting with it the way I wanted to, but something that I wasn't shocked by but I was, I was impressed by how intense this was, was my comfort and desperateness for the photos that were the worst quote, unquote, like, the blurry cellphone photos, right just happened to Cat catch, like a really funny look on his face with the jowls or like, you know, us laying in bed, it was so dark, you can barely see. But I remember I just really wanted to capture, like how he was like, nestled in me. And it wasn't the gorgeous, Regal ones, like, I'm so happy to have them. I love them. But the ones that I was yearning for, were not the most beautiful ones. You know, that's, I'm so passionate and sharing that because I would never want someone to not take the beautiful responsibility of taking the most important pictures of their lives, because they're too busy, you know, waiting for a professional to do it for them. Because that professional could never take the most important pictures of your life. It's only you. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, and I have had professional photographers on the show before. So I'm not saying this to diminish their worth, by any means. But I feel like it's something that people they put off until the time's right? Like, I will wait to get the professional shots to finish having our family or I want to lose a bit of weight first before I do it. So you're putting off capturing the moments that are happening, actually your life is happening. Until you get to a point where you feel like things are, I'm putting that in inverted quotes, air quotes, again, a right or perfect, which is the horrible word. You know, so it's like, taking the photos every single day or you know, every time the moment calls to you wildlife is happening. And you can then you can get your photos that you want to have the beautiful photos on the wall, which look amazing. You walk into people's houses. I don't have them because I don't know, I just don't like seeing my big head everywhere. But you know, and what's important to to other people, you know, we're all different, and of what you know, we want. But yeah, like not letting life slip by and not letting life happen to you. But you're actually experiencing your life as it's happening to you. Yes. And I mean, I know that what you're saying makes me think about how, I mean, it's no secret that the most important moments of our lives are the tiniest, like it's the mundane, quiet ones. And, you know, the, the times that we usually think about hiring and investing in you know, photography tends to be the events and, and, you know, for for good reason, too. It's an investment and it's a production, it is a thing, but I mean, I, I think about how funny it is that I'm the photographer of the family. And oftentimes on the holidays, it's the last time I'm pulling out my camera, like unless it's like a camcorder or something because I just, I don't there's already enough going on that day. I don't, I don't need more on the plate like I don't I know for me, those are not the moments that are the most important moments. So unless something trips up inside of me and I do take the photo, but it's kind of like inverted, like those, like those milestone moments are, are very sweet. And they're important not to diminish them. Like the celebration is always important. But I mean, not to be cliche, but it is it's like your life is like everything. And then the graduation. A wedding. It's like, those are not a moment that are like the meat of your life. Yeah, I just as we're talking about that reminds me of I had a guest on the podcast, Monica Crowley. I had her on the podcast. She's an Irish visual artist, and she's really, really passionate about recording. The moment she's a predominant oil. Artists works with oils, and one of her works is of the items in the sink. So she did this series of things that were in a sink because she was spending a lot of time at the sink. So it was like recording just these mundane, everyday ordinary moments. Yeah, because as moms, we we do a lot of repetitive tasks. There's a lot of things we do a lot every day. Yeah. And what how what do you feel about this? Moms making sure they're in photos? Is that something that you're keen about as well? Yes. I actually have a I have a I have to send you the link. It's just a free challenge. I'm so passionate about it. I made this like inbox challenge. It's brilliant. You sign up and you can just get through it's over three days three prompts. I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm saying very simple things. But the point is, my biggest point is in this topic is to not make permanent decisions off of temporary feelings. Because, listen, I'm not immune to this, like, we all know, when we feel like we're having a good day or not having a good day, or we're this or that. But not taking that moment to get in the photo regularly, is making a very strong decision for yourself leader, and not only yourself, but your kids to not, you know, not being in that frame. And also, I mean, I think about my whole life up until, like, last year, I hated my profile, I just hated the bump on my nose hated it. And then all of a sudden, I looked at this photo last year with me and my two boys, and I, it was a straight profile picture. And I was like, I don't care anymore. I was shocked. I was like, not only do I not care, but I actually quite liked that picture. And it's like, imagine if I would have been ducking from the camera, you know, we're very conscious of it. You know, I think that sometimes we can get caught up in like all of the posting in the social media, but we have to remember that, you know, not saying that, to make yourself uncomfortable, when it's not something that feels good to you. But at the same time, take comfort in not all of these photos are for anyone else to see, like your photographs, or you know, it's like your visual diary of your life, you know, so. And I think that we can underestimate our, the healing we get from that as well. I think about what my photos of me from postpartum Of course, I took the pictures of you know, I've made myself up and blah, blah, blah with the babies. But those pictures make me feel uncomfortable to look at because I see myself smiling. And I know, like, I know what it felt like. And it makes me uncomfortable to see those. And then I see the pictures that I took in my lowest hours. Because I do you have that weird thing where I'll take a selfie when I'm not well, and I find such compassion for myself that I don't know that I would have thought to even have for myself had I not seen the pain of like a previous version of myself, it's kind of like, you're looking at a picture of yourself as a little girl. Like you just have this compassion that you don't have for yourself as as naturally now, which is something that you know, I feel like also needs to be worked through and I'm working through but these photographs are openings for us, huh? Yeah, I love that. So one of your I don't know whether just call it a program or a course. Sorry, is called nostalgia now 10 member membership, can you share sharing with us what that is about? That is my newest creation. And I say that I knew that I was onto something when I had when it came to me. And I did a like a mock run of it by myself. And I was so excited that I was like panic, because if I haven't I've been doing this for myself in my life for longer. So in full transparency as as usual with me. So my course I was finding I'm like this is it's just hard to explain succinctly. Right? Like, I don't think that it's people understand it as quickly. And I think that it's it can be confusing if you're not already like a part of this world. And I was like what is a way to like, implement the theory and the function of like what I'm getting at here that in a way that's like doable, simple, sustainable, and like realistic for like busy overwhelmed moms. And this is what I thought of i It's a once a month meeting. And I also have like a portal of like different resources because we have an intention for each month. And I'll add like curated meditations in it and I'll upload the video versions of my podcast as a way to like keep momentum through the month. But at the in this meeting, it's two hours in the first hour is like coworking, so I send out these templates that are just artfully done and there's like only space for three or four photos. And I put like a vague prompts in it like something that made you feel expansive or something that you want to take with you for the rest of your life or something, whatever. And you're only allowed to look at all of the photos up on your scroll from the last month. And so you've been on your music, we are an hour your were muted on Zoom, and you're just looking at the photos that took place. Over the last month of your life, and you can only pick four, which is a weird, hard, but also fascinating thing, it's just this crazy way to get intentional. And also see the scope of what happens in a whole month, I'm shocked at what happens in a whole month. And to kind of like witness yourself from like a bird's eye view, because you know that you're the taker of these photos, and to like, look back and see, notice what you noticed, and then create this thing. So you have like this visual of the that month of your life. And then we go around, and it's like adult show and tell. And we just talk about why we chose each photo. And you know, like, what that month and that intention felt like for us. And I really feel like it's such a beautiful way to check in with yourself and make space for yourself in a in a cadence that is realistic, but also so helpful. Because how often do we look back? And we're like, it's been six months into the new year, what the fuck am I doing, like I said, I'm gonna do this, and I haven't and whatever. So it's a way to like, keep you account a gentle way to like, keep you accountable, and like connected to yourself and to your, you know, wrapping up a month and saying, Okay, this is the way this month played out. And like, this is what I'm hoping for this month, you know, and to keep you sort of anchored to the moment. So like, I know, I'm the same, like, it's June, this is insane. Like, what has happened. But yeah, and to actually take stock each month and remembering that Ah, that's right. And, and I think that's important that that why we took that photo and why we chose to include, you know, included in the prompts. In those four photos, like it gives you that time to reflect on yourself, and maybe how you feeling or things that you might like you said, things you want to do that you're putting off or, you know, it's like, I don't want this to sound rude at all. But it sounds so simple, but it's so big and meaningful. You know, like, it's just, I don't know, it's really powerful, isn't it? And as moms like we're so we are so busy, and we're always doing things for other people. And to be able to carve out time for ourselves can often feel like, you know, a luxury or guilt thing, you know, but to actually stop and take stock of ourselves, you know, instead of always saying to other people, how are you? How can I help you, you know, what does this person need? What are my children need, you know, looking at ourselves. And that can be challenging, I think for for many people would be hard to say Well hang on a minute, I'm the least person that matters here. You know that we're putting everybody else first all the time. So it would open up so many things for for everybody. Oh, it's incredible. And it's you know, right now it's a very intimate group. And I will I first to admit, I am a self proclaimed hermit introvert, like the community part of any up until a year ago, the community part of anything I was like, Okay, I mean, I'm a lone wolf. I'm the person that if I was in a group in high school working on a project, I'm like, I'll see you later I'll put your name on it fine. Like not at all, but the value of connecting with like, like feeling souls, not even like minded or like, it's just people that you just see each other. I mean, every time we like, there's almost tears, you know, and it's just so to be witnessed, to be able to like speak your truth and also be witnessed by people that you just know, get it. It's, I don't know that there are words for it really, like I feel like often people can kind of shrug it off and I know that I was one of those people before experiencing it for myself. But you know, I think that that element of it not only does it keep us accountable to actually do it, but it makes it so much more fruitful and if it gives it so much more space. Hmm. Yeah. Now I love it good on you. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I'll put all the links if anyone's interested in checking this out. I'll put all the links in the show notes and that is awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Now, let's talk about your children. Oh yeah. The D so you've got two children, boys, two boys. Oh boy. I'm hearing you in almost four year old caches, and then Silas is like 16 months. Oh, nice little boys. Yeah. And they are so different. So different. My first one. It's funny I, I have like, I really do wonder if like their births had something to do with how they are now because my first one was is a very sensitive, deep feeling intense, little boy. And like my labor was really hard. It was like a very, I got postpartum, the whole thing. And then my second son, I was like bopping on a ball Post Malone. And he is just a savage. She is like, nothing upsets them. Everything's a joke to him, like, different. You know what, there might be something in that because my first labor was very, very quick and intense and incredibly, horribly insane. And my sense, the same is a real is real impact. Everything's really deep. And he takes things in so sensitive. And the other one ah, water off a duck's back, you know, completely different. How old? So the older one, he's 14, and my little one is about to turn seven. So, so it stayed true. It stayed true to them as they grew. Oh, hey, personality? Absolutely. They're just like chalk and cheese. Unbelievable kids. Larry sees often wonder how that happens when you've got the you know, in our case, you know, the same the same parents? How are they? Ah, it's insane. How do you find then they're coming into your world, you becoming a mom, how has that affected the way you see things in your photography? I feel that they've definitely, it's like a, I don't know, it's making me think about like a magnifying glass like, wood on concrete. With the sudden I get it feels like a very acute, like heightened everything. But I definitely really didn't know I didn't understand what my transformation would be like in becoming a mother. I think I had this underlying belief that once I had children, my cup runneth over from them. And I would the emphasis like, because, you know, I'm a naturally anxious person, I get very overwhelmed, but I felt like once I have kids, like that will be my world. I will focus on that. And that will be so fulfilling and XYZ and this is how I'm going to be. That's not at all how I was like, it's just crazy to me. And it you know, it sounds so naive. But I really did think that like I had a friend who had a baby who, you know, she was very much on the fence and didn't know if she ever wanted one. And then when she did she was just on genuinely on cloud nine blissed out. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if she was blissed out, I'm gonna be like, correct because I have been wanting a baby for so long. Just not at all, how, how I felt and how I've kind of processed the change, but, you know, they are still like a boot camp for me. I mean, I am like, a they're a mirror for me in that. They intensify all of the best and worst in me. And I am so aware of when I'm at my worst in terms of what I'm feeling and what I don't want to project because I don't want to pass on the traits that I've inherited to my children. So there, they keep me honest, in not that I'm always you know, I always pass the test in, you know, not doing my natural reactions. I I have like a very overly protective worrywart, Italian New York father. And I just grew up with like, the most worry, fear consumed everything. And I'm very much trying not to pass that on. And I know that they can sense even when I'm not saying it, I know that they can sense that energy from me. So they're really helping me to become more aware and work through that. Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's yeah. I love that. It's interesting. I actually saw this quote, this just this morning when I was scrolling. I really want to find it now. But I don't know if I'm gonna be able to it was about the gist of it was how basically the gist of it was We're very different parents and our parents were deliberately we're trying to do things differently. We're trying to, and I'm not saying our parents did a bad job, that was the world that they lived in is a different world that we're parenting in. Yeah. What was, you know, acceptable, the norms of what you did and how you interacted with your children. So we're conscious of that. And we want to, I mean, I guess we don't, we don't want to put our kids through things that we went through, you know, being kind to our parents that are listening. And they probably say the same thing about their parents, you know, each generation learns as we go. So, it's, it's overwhelming, because it's like, it's everywhere. Like, it's in the most innocent of places, and the most normal of tongues, like, I think about something that'll fly out of my mouth. And, or I'll hear someone else say, and I'm, like, hold the phone. That is so effed up, like, so. It was, you know, if my kids no tears, be a big boy, no tears, I'm like, Just fucking terrible. But it's like, so it's so quote, unquote, innocent. But it is until it's not like, it's like, thank goodness, we're having these like, awakenings to it, but it's like, kind of, you know, if you sleepwalk through it, and if you just let it happen, because that's what has been done before. We all know how that goes, you know. So it, you know, all we can do is the best we can do, but it could drive you crazy. So I think that giving grace and being grateful for the awareness, because that is the most beautiful thing. And that, you know, I mean, it just does tie back to the way I think about photography. I the awareness and the impulse and the thought to take a photo, just the recognition of like, hey, that doesn't feel right saying that to my kid, or that is so much more powerful than any action you take. In that moment. Like, you could fuck it up. You could say you could have said that and like, then they went to school and you didn't have a moment to make it right in that moment. Or, you know, you know, you thought to take the photo, and then you did but it didn't feel right, you wish you didn't, whatever. It's, it's the awareness. It's the seeing it, that is the biggest breakthrough of all that unlocks everything that comes after and it builds from there. So I think releasing ourselves of like, doing it wrong, or like should have what occurs or regrets and just feeling gratitude for like, Hey, I saw that, like, I'm aware of that. Yeah, that was a big, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's, it's really relating to like this conversation that I'm having right now, presently, actually, ironically, about how, like presence and how this term feels like this elusive like, Yeah, can't ever grasp it. Like I, I always am hearing often that like, a lot of people, I feel this I've set it to, it's hard to be present in my life. And what really got me thinking about this in a more, like, problem solving type of way is that when I would tell people that I truly believe that you don't have to choose between being present and taking the photo, I would see their shoulders drop, like, as I was anyone to tell them give them permission how to be in their life the way they want to be. And it just made me think about how we are putting presence on this pedestal and like thinking that like, it has to be this, you know, this like come to whatever moment when really, we need to just recognize our own unique ways of being present. Because it's not just one way it's not just you know, we are when we are we are and it looks in different ways. Like sometimes I think about presence. He even when you look it up the definition is like to not have your mind stray from the current situation. And when I don't I don't even agree with that. It's like sometimes presence is like, okay, like, I'm looking at the pores on my kid's face and like, really like studying him. And I'm present and sometimes I'm present and I feel like I can see through like different lifetimes. I'm like looking at a moment. And I like zoom up and I can see like so much more and of course my brain is Going somewhere else, but like, I really feel like both versions of presence in my life like I don't Yeah, that see, I can agree with that too. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I can't even explain it but I know what you mean Yeah. Now I'll go to a subject that I really I love talking about. And I always say it sounds terrible when I say I love talking about guilt. But I just find it so fascinating. And I think that idea when you mentioned about this presents being this attainable thing, everyone's got to be present, because everyone's telling us we've got to be present. And if we're not present, we'll feel bad about it. This whole guilt laden thing, talk to me about your, your thoughts about guilt and like mum guilt, I put that in air quotes as well. It's like, it's like a magician that like keeps pulling like the flags out of his Our scars out of his bag, it just you keep peeling off the layers when you think you're clear of it. I think that guilt, mom guilt is a very specific type of guilt. And I also feel that artist, Mom yield is an even more cute version of it. Because being that intensely aware of the impermanence of something and being able to see the depths of the beauty, and so many moments of your life, can make you feel so beholden to meet that moment there. And sometimes you're just not there. Sometimes you do. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scrolling my phone. I just wasn't i How many times are they going to be in the battle? It's like you go through the Rolodex like I know, I know, a B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuffed myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I'd never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like I just felt I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to and I closed my eyes. I was like, I can't see any more. I can't I can't take in any more. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about about guilt and about it's this it's the knowing it's that wise like I get it I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not I'm not there and I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment you know, that is brilliantly put honestly, I need to put a put a hand clap that was amazing. You have literally summed up how I feel about mom guilt. Don't make me cry. Like honestly. I'm going to take this moment and frame it like that is just so good. You will hear this quote again. Love it. Yes, it is so hard to like to know it's like you know, cuz you sit there and you can be so hard on yourself and you're like I know better. I see this is incredibly How could I not want to be there but you Just there's, there's only so much going on. And that's it, isn't it? And that whole thing of that if we can't, you know, we have, we can't be this martyr, we can't be this completely selfless person that puts our needs above everybody else's. Because we won't survive. And it's not sustainable. And it's not. I don't think it's a good thing to be showing our children either that, you know, the mother is the sacrificial lamb and yes. Yeah, how would you want your child to put themselves like to prioritize themselves and in their life? You know, it's funny, I this quote, I went to an artist talk in when I was living in San Francisco, and it was it stuck with me. It's one of those things that stuck with me, there's a couple of those. And you know, sometimes something sticks with you. And you're like, I don't know that this is going to be good to be sitting in me. But I've had a couple of those moments. But this one that in particular, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of it's Francis Ford Coppola. And it was a q&a part of the lecture. And someone raised their hand and said, Well, what advice would you give a young artists director in their career? And he sat there for a moment, and he said, It was the most honest thing you could have said, you can't even get mad at him. He was like, I'd say, if you're a male, the starting your career, get married, have children. If you're a woman, don't get married, don't have children. Like that was his career advice. He's right. He was right for what he was saying, for that time. I get it. Because I feel that I'm in a very balanced relationship. And it's still not balanced. It's still there is not apples to apples. If we had the same night planned, and he was out, my my partner was out. And then I was out, we took turns. I'm not exaggerating, the night would be three times harder. For me. They're different children with me, they feel there's so much more turbulent, absolutely. It's just the way it is. And unlike the natural, and he and my partner, he is so accommodating and helpful when I need it. But this the setpoint the state that is the weight sways this way. And, you know, there has to be work done to help balance that and we have to be extra vocal, in my experience, I have to be extra vocal to speak for my needs. And that requires excavating and that requires, you know, realizing inequities where we don't even realize it's happening, but it is so deeply ingrained. We don't even identify them. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny that I feel like my children like I had a perfect example last night where my little fella was some my husband and put him to bed. And he was out. Two minutes later, he came down to me and wanted to chat and I. And I said, I said, Hang on a sec, aren't you supposed to be in bed? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, I said, I, I did hate using these words, but I do. I said, I'll tell dad. And he goes, and he races back to bed. And my, my eldest son was there. And I said, Hi, why does that happen? And he goes, he goes, Yeah, I remember when when I was little, that wasn't even home. But you pretended he was home and called out to him. And that made me get back in my bed. You know, but like, my husband is not, you know, a big domineering men. He's not like physically like, he, you know, he doesn't there's no reason for my children to fear him. It's just this whole thing or wait till your dad gets home you know, like this. This culture is you know, dead serious. Our mom you know, she might let me stay up a bit longer because she's a softy. You know, it's just this it takes me an hour to get my son in bed if I he like puts a I say it's like his physical alarm system on me. He'll swing his leg over mine. So I tried to like double Oh, seven get out of the bed and I can so I'm like, half the time I fall asleep putting him to bed because he prisoner. And, uh, he, my partner will put them take him up. He sings to lullabies to him, and he's out and that's it. I'm like, Ah. And it's like, it's beautiful. And but that's the thing too. Like, what the girl it's like, sometimes I love it. I always used to think before I had kids. I'm like, How precious is it that they only want mommy? Now I'm like, wow. Oh, no. And sometimes I love it. And sometimes I hate it and that's fine. That was like when, when the boys were little they they often they say dad dad first, like, that's easier for a child to pronounce. Oh, when's he gonna say mom? When's he gonna? Like he says, Mom, and then he never stopped saying that kid is saying, Well, that's what we feel about my, my youngest walking, everyone's like, is he walking yet and we're like, we don't want him. Like, he'll be walking the rest of his life. It's a new world for us, like we joke about like kicking his knees out from under a cake curl and maybe ctrl T. Yeah, look, I love the way that this conversation has become, I know we're being quite light hearted. But it's, it's true. Like, there is nothing wrong with saying, I need a break in this situation, whatever the situation is, and not feeling guilty about I should be doing this, I should be there, you know, this should that, you know, we put on ourselves because of the external use sort of pressures that we feel. I don't know, I keep I have this thing with social media. You know, it's great. And I utilize it a lot for, you know, my needs for my, for my podcasts and my singing and stuff. But I think it's got the way that people use it. It's got quite bad at making us feel like crap. It's got quite good at making us feel like crap questions. Yeah. You know, all these things are getting better. And like I said before, it might be the algorithms, I'm seeing a lot of good things. But I still feel like there's this, we're just, we don't want to tell it like it is. We want to keep this facade up that everything's fine and everything's good. And this may be a parent's wave, like, you don't speak about who you voted for. And you don't talk about religion, you know, that sort of that way of doing things. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think something that I heard recently brought up and like, oh, boy, yeah, it's true is it's like a a wave of curated authenticity, like, quote, unquote, real like, oh, yeah, this is this is Instagram real Instagram real. And then you don't get to see the real root. Like taking it like one step down from the manicured Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I get I get torn with thinking about it and talking about it. Because like, I I feel that just because I decide that I want to be a stand and a, like, take a stand with transparency, and realness doesn't mean that someone else should have to do that. So I, you know, people have very different levels of like, comfortability and privacy. And I totally respect that. And, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't even quite I don't even quite know, like, what, what I want from it, because when I think about how it harmed me with the postpartum you know, anyone that I could get frustrated with, like, I would know that they also struggled, but they struggled internally, which is makes me sad, too. You know, it's not even that like, oh, you only post the highlight reel, and I know you struggle. It's like, what can we do to like, just bring these conversations up, like what you said about how we don't talk about that? Because it's like, oh, it's tacky or it's this or it's that it's like what you know, what, what is the hiding? Like, what is who by whose standards like I think it's so funny whenever my friends like planning something and she's like, well, what's the etiquette? Like, whatever the fuck you think is right like it what's the etiquette? Like, no, I don't, but we're gonna go look up whatever some woman said 200 years ago. even like the right way to be a lady, you know, just like so funny that these things, I think it's just, if nothing else, this constant questioning, it's like, let's keep asking questions like, why are we doing the things that we're doing? Why are we, you know, wanting to, you know, match our coordinator clothes for this the photos like, is it a passion point that you love? Great? Is it something that you feel beholden to? And everyone else is doing it that way? Probably not the best reason to do it, you know, it's like, it's something that's right for you are right for someone else's wrong. And I think as long as we just keep asking questions and keep having conversations like this, and you know, these platforms that we're used to just say, hey, it's been like this for this amount of time. But why, like, why, why are we doing it this way? I think that that is the most helpful thing that we can do. Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. It's just, yeah, we had I'm not sure if it made it to the to your media over there. But we, we had a prime minister, we've changed prime ministers, thank goodness. His name was Scott Morrison and he he is a dickhead, sorry, sorry, sorry, liberal people. We have a is a young lady over here called Grace time. And she was she's an activist in the space of survivors of sexual assault. And she was named the Australian of the Year in 2021. And she's amazing. She's, she tells it like it is she gets up there. And she doesn't care who she's talking to. She's gonna tell she's gonna talk as she wants to talk. And she did amazing things. And she's do it. And at the end of her 12 months of being Australian of the Year, they have a function it was Parliament House where it was at the house of the Prime Minister. That's irrelevant, sorry. But anyway, he, they all go there, the Young Australian of the Year old Australian here, whatever. And she, we have in the Liberal government in the last three years, there's been this incredible, probably longer than three years, sorry, this incredible tone of misogyny. And there's all this stuff been coming out about sexual assaults happening in the workplace in at the Capitol. And, wow, the Liberal government sort of, I don't know, sort of tried to brush it off and hide it and support it continued to, to employ Members of Parliament while they're under investigation for for alleged sexual assault. And anyway, so she wasn't happy about that, as a lot of us weren't, and she called them out on it. So when she went to this long story short, she went to this end of the year event, and she refused to shake his hand, and she didn't look him in the eye. And all the men of Australia just went, how dare she, she shouldn't have been there if she wasn't going to smile. You know, it was just this huge moment of division, where so many women just went well, good on her, like, what is he done? He's he's trying to hide this stuff. He hasn't put things in place to sort it out, whatever. That it was this moment. And even my husband was like, Oh, she's not going to smile. She shouldn't have gone. It's like, men standards about how women have to behave in society. Like you're just saying that, you know, this etiquette. 200 years ago, this woman says you have to put your fork on you on the right, and the spine goes there. And then you have these cups for dessert, like, oh, just makes my blood boil. Yeah, like, yeah, and her and by her behaving in that way, it's caused this huge arrow, and it's done exactly what the women needed and wanted and it's brought it into the forefront. You know, she was so brave to do that, you know, just don't play Happy Families and don't think that everything's fine. And just smile and get on with life, like women have had to do for hundreds and hundreds of years. And, you know, oh, sorry. No, I think incredible to me, even if, even if he didn't have this huge scandal out and all of these very valid reasons. Even if it was something private that happened that no one else knew about. You don't want to shake someone's hand. You know what the funniest thing was? Probably 12 months before that. We had, we had a lot of big fires over here. We had a really bad fire season. And the prime minister went to okay, this how much of a decrease bloke was while the big fires were happening? He went on a holiday to Hawaii with his family. So everyone was like, He's not present. He's not here and his comment his comeback when he was questioned about he said, I don't hold the hose. Right. That was his comment. He doesn't need to be in Australia while this is happening because he's physically not there putting out the fire and everyone was like, you idiot. So he went in visited the fire grounds and went and visited the where it was all happening and he went up to this fire man put his hand out to shake his hand. And this man said, I don't want to shake your hand right? Everyone in Australia we could on your mate Good on you for not shaking his hand. Right but when when a woman does it for different reasons, but it's still women doing the men went apeshit and all we were Yes. Grown Your Grace. Just it's just incredible. I can't it's like you can't make this stuff up. You can't? Oh, yeah. Want to believe that? It's still like, I know sometimes you feel like you're like am I 100 years ago? Like what is that? What it but it is? It is? Yeah, sometimes you think the only things missing is our corsets in the big skirts, like we're still living in that world. Now I want to ask you about your it to do with that concept of identity about being a mother and, and your children? Do you feel like it's important for your children to know what you're doing and as they grow up to see that their mum is contributing to the world in other ways other than meeting their own needs. I think when I think about what I want my children to know, about me. I think first and foremost, I think about wanting them to feel fully seen. And although I mean, there is a child and you know parent relationship. i i I want them to feel like they I want to prioritize them knowing me like I don't want to have a shield them from the real me in many senses. Like something I heard one said that I thought was beautiful. And it's very simple. It it was actually do you know Dax Shepard is he's an actor. Yes. And Kristen. I forget. Anyway, Kristen Bell, and Dax Shepard. podcast as well. I was on one of his podcast episodes that they were talking about how if they have a fight, and if it's not like they go out of their way to fight in front of their kids, but like, if they have a fight, and they witness in any way or arguing or whatever, they make sure that they also witnessed the resolution and the working through it. It's just like this level of transparency of like, and just knowing like, knowing having my kids know who I really am is important to me, way more than them feeling like that their mom contributed, like whatever I end up doing. That is not as important to me as like, feeling them feeling like they knew who I was, and not having them like discover things about me that you know, and, and that's always kind of been even outside of like being a mother. I've always felt like that, like, one time was a maybe a spicy but whatever. I really like, you know, someone asked me once, how do you feel about being a woman? In a, in a industry where, you know, historically ABCD and bubbeleh have? How is it? How do you feel about your feminine perspective? And I was like, I don't want to sound ignorant and I so I'm grateful to the trailblazers and I you know, there's a wealth of history and there's so much to be said but also, I am not. That is not the lens that I choose to hold with me and frame. What I do and My life and what I put in the world. And I'm grateful that like, I don't have to feel like I'm like, That is a torch that I'm carrying now. And I understand, like, what came before me to enable that. But I'm here and I'm now and that is not something that I'm prioritizing. I'm not thinking about that in that way. So I don't, you know, I don't feel that, you know, being can, beholding myself to contributing in any sort of specific way is something that resonates with me, it's more this like, need of feeling truly seen and being able to say the things that I struggle to say, but I find the words for like, the other day, I was thinking about how, after one of my podcast episodes, I felt like a vulnerability hangover. And it was weird, because I'm always like, I always nothing different about that episode than all the others. But for some reason, I feel like maybe I said something for myself, like more strongly than I usually did. And I was like, you know, why? Why do I feel like that? And it's this idea that I'm growing so much, and, you know, sometimes our perspectives change, but like, if we're too afraid to say something, because we might change our mind will see nothing ever, you know, so yeah. And to be able to say, I actually actually have changed my mind about this, you know, yeah, to not feel afraid. Oh, well, there you go. Haha. You know, people Yeah, and it's like, actually, I've done the work, and I've gone through things, and I've experienced life. And now actually, I feel like this, there's, again, no shame in saying stuff like that. Exactly. And having your children bear witness to that, like, could enable them to, you know, maybe not have such a go with their, with their pride and being able to do the same. So, yeah, so that is like, my number one priority for for whatever my kids can see or think of me is just to see the wholeness of, of what I am. Yeah, I really love that. Baby's really, really lovely. I really love that. So that's the thing, like, I feel like, it's sort of related to times when you'd go to funerals for older relatives, and you discover that they did this, that and the other and, like, Ah, I wish I'd have known that. So I could have asked them about it, you know, saying like, I don't know, I, in my eye, again, challenging the cultural norms, this is what it was at the time, you know, my parents, they would hide, you know, certain conversations from us, and probably for good reason, you know, your child, you don't need to know things, but then that still happens a lot in my life now. And I think that's because of the way my parents were raised, to keep things hidden, you know, children are seen and not heard all this sort of, like I said before, about, you know, you don't talk about your political choices. I could not like my dad and I have the best talk about politics. You know, I could not imagine going through my life not having a sounding board for talking about politics, you know, and for my children to, you know, to grow up understanding about the world, you know, there's things that you do want to talk to them about, you know, and not just hideaway or don't talk about that, you know, again, I respect you know, people were living in different times you know, I'm not I'm not bragging that that was the way it was then. But yeah, and I think that's a really powerful thing to say that you want your children to to really see you and to know you as a person and I think that's that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you Do you have anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't brought up or anything else that's on your mind? You want to know it's just this has been a very juicy conversation. It's been great. It's just so it's so incredible to me. I mean, that I'm able to connect with you on the other side of the world you know, and like we have, we have a lot in common tell you when in a short time, like I feel like we have more in common than we've even uncovered. Just how important this all is. And I think that, you know, something that I saw today, and it makes me think about, right, I'm just thinking about it now. And I'll just say it, I'm, I, I'm in a mastermind with Amber Lee strim. She's a, she's a business coach. And she's really incredible. And she, she said something, she posted something in one of the captions, and it was like, talking about how she put on this, this in person events, when she was going through a time in her business, and, you know, and she was brave enough to do it. And then she did it year after year, and it grew and grew. But at the end, she was saying that, like, even if you're not in the place to, you know, put on inventory, you don't have the resources to XYZ, like, we have such a powerful stage, like every post, every podcast episode, every thing you create has such a world of opportunity attached to it and like could really be the thing that like, helps, and changes and does whatever we just did, and like. And even if it's a needle at a time, it's like the compounding effects of this work is incredible. I mean, it's just like, I've been at this for a year. And you know, I can say that it's been a very slow burn, but at the same time, like the, the consistency and being like this tapped into myself, and the work I'm putting out and being able to make these connections has, you know, I can feel like, oh, you know, look at the numbers and think one thing, but then if I really pull myself up and look back and understand like the body of work, and the connections and the discoveries and the transformations I've gone through, it's it's really incredible. So I just want to thank you for being being a stand for this as well. And like creating the work that you do and connecting with all the incredible artists, I'm honored to be a part of your show. Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you to say and yeah, likewise, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like I feel the same way. We're all collectively contributing, contributing to a movement, I feel like things are really happening. And this is the time we'll look back on this time and go, you know, this was a significant period of our lives and, you know, society, Western society, in generals life, and we're a part of it, I feel like, you know, and I think that's the thing, because, perhaps previously, because of the work, the way the world was set up, there wasn't the internet or whatever, when someone did something, it was a big deal. Now, because we've all collectively got this access to, you know, the internet, we can do podcasts, we can do blogs, all this stuff, because there are so many people doing it. The reach might not be as broad. But that's the difference. There are so many people doing it now. You know, I feel like, you know, there's momentum in this and I just got goose bumps. If I get like, we are a ship, we are the ship, like you know, a thing isn't a thing until it's a thing. And then enough people I was just listening to. I think he's so cool. His name is Jeff Goins. He's a writer, and he has a podcast called he creator. And he was just talking about how you know, a thing isn't even a thing until someone comes up with it. And it's really weird at first because it's not an a thing. And then enough people believe it, and all of a sudden, that's the norm. And then, you know, and it's like, it's so true. And that's what, you know, all of these norms that we're combating through, like pulling the veil off, you know, that we are not separate from that we are we are doing the work on the ground floor of that. And I think it's so important. It's so incredible. And also, you know, even though it definitely is a, you know, the big pond a bunch, a little fish type of thing in some way, you know, leaning into who we truly are and like own the more we own ourselves, the more powerful we can be for whoever does find us and all of a sudden binge, like, oh my gosh, you were the vehicle that I needed this to come through, like kids. We've all been there where we hear something, and we know that we've heard that same sentiment a bajillion times before but there was something about the way this person said it in this moment that just was the thing you needed and unlocked you and you can never tell we know when that's going to happen but also there probably are no accidents right so yeah. I think you know, this divine timing like when you're ready for this message like yeah, I could tell you a million examples of Napoleon but you know, so many examples of you know, you're saying So you hear this and then one time you hear it, it's might not be delivered any differently, but it sticks in your right eye for you. Exactly. It's hilarious isn't it thank you so much for coming on Bianca. It just has been a really lovely conversation. I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And good luck with the rest of your endeavors doing your podcast and and yeah, just keep doing it. Because it's so good. So thank you so much, and I would be so honored and cannot wait to have you have you as a guest on my show as well. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Leah Franklin Australian plant based chef + entrepreneur S2 Ep68 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** Find Leah on facebook / instagram Podcast website / instagram If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on.It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Thank you so much for welcoming me into your home layout. It is such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the show. Yeah. And I got to point out that you've got some delightful traits here for us, and you are an amazing vegan cook wouldn't be me. If I didn't have that. You tell us what you've put up? Well, I've got some Biscoff KitKat. And I've also got some Biscoff rocky road for you today. So that's having a big moment. It's massive. Yeah, and I don't only make maybe three things with it. But it's so well received, and everyone loves Biscoff if you haven't tried it, I'm gonna have something you need to try it. So yeah. Oh, man. But do you find people that eat this that aren't vegan or vegetarian? They can't believe that it's actually being? Yeah. And but believe it or not, at that about 80? We've done a bit of market research, Tony from metros sort of, you know, filled me in here and there. Yeah, that approximately 80% of my customers aren't vegan. So it's like, it's across the board. And, and literally, if you don't tell anyone, it's vegan, they wouldn't have a clue. So I promote that it's vegan slash plant based. But it appeals to everybody. So which is fantastic. Yeah. That was just like lifting the remnants in my back. There's a bit there to eat. So how did you first become interested in veganism? What was the say, when I was 30. And I'd had my third daughter, I was unwell. And when I say unwell I was it was nonspecific, like, I was just felt like rubbish, probably ate a bit of rubbish. I had all sorts of tests and nothing came back with any particular disease or chronic condition. had chronic back pain, body aches, all the things went into hospital had a had a bit of an exploratory on my lady bits. And I remember coming out of the anesthetic, and the doctor said, Well, you're good for another 10 Kids, there's nothing going on in there. And I said, Okay, so what's happening? And he said, Well, we call this nonspecific pelvic pain, so we can just start off for you. Because it's because it's cyclic, we can, we can just give you a hysterectomy, and we'll take everything out, and you'll be all good to go. Which, which back in the day back then, which was 1995 was probably happened a lot. They just don't we just take everything out. And that'd be good. Well, we know now that comes with a whole host of other problems. So I said, just give me a minute, you know, so I think I might just take I'll just take 12 months, and let's just see how I go. And I'll try a few conservative things myself. And he said, Okay, but you know, you know, this referrals for 12 months, so you know, I said, okay, so went away, I started off just taking all the junk food, a lot of chips, drink a lot of coke, you know, just the standard things that people have to call that out first. Then I took red meat out. And that made a huge difference year information. And back then, I mean, I keep I'll keep saying through this back in the day, and I know it's not that long ago, that we're talking 2526 years ago and a lot has happened since then a lot to come to the fore about gut health and you know, inflammation in your body. Yeah. And I didn't know it was inflammation then but once I took red meat out of my diet and dairy I'd always had a bit of a an issue with dairy I'd as a kid I if I ate ice cream always got a belly ache or I remember throwing up at several like school Fairs and things like that because I drink this massive milkshake. Great, yeah, come out. Of course, lactose intolerance wasn't a thing back then you didn't know anything about it. So I took those red meat and dairy out. And I just felt amazing. Within probably two, three months, I just all my pain went away my back pain was so bad. But if I got on the floor of changing nappy, I couldn't stand up, I have my then husband would have to get his arm and help me off the floor. So that that was that. And so I left in chicken and fish. And I, I kept going with that for a while. And then something funny happens when you start to then do a bit of research around. You know, what, why is that making me feel awful, that I started to then come across things more of an ethical nature around factory farming and things like that. And I was literally mortified. So I was vegetarian for quite a while. And then took out the eggs and all the things and, and of course, back then, it was like I joined a cult. My family didn't understand my my birth family didn't understand my dad, your dad listened to this, I'm not knocking him. He just he knows he used to make all the jokes about you know, or that hasn't got a face and that hasn't got a face if I was eating anything. And he always made fun of me. And I said him to stop that stop, you know, I get really offended and but I learned to just let that wash over me in the end. And thankfully now I don't have to explain myself anymore. Because, you know, look, now, the world's evolved to catch up with you caught up with me. I'm not a freak show anymore. I can actually just ask for a vegan option. And no one laughs or no one questions what I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about now. Yeah. And, and I'm sure people that aren't vegan now. If they're, you know, younger, they probably can't imagine a world where people had no concept of what I was talking about. If I if I went somewhere and asked, can you serve that without this and that? And it was like, what? Yeah, like I finally been, like not eating meat. Probably. I'm gonna say maybe 12 years. And even in that time, you'd ask people in restaurants or what's in this stock when what's in, you know, often their body and bones and stuff. And the people be like, What do you mean? And whenever we went to Melbourne, or Adelaide, no worries at all. It's like the country's charm. Yeah. Yeah. But now it's just so my it's, it's, it's crazy of I've watched it and it's like, just warmed my heart. Because it's how my business started too. It's my business started. Basically, when I met Rob, and Rob's as far from vegan as you could possibly be, say, I live in a house with him, him there and me here. And you know, we're just completely opposite ends of the spectrum. But we make it work. And that's how my business started. Because I was tired of going to a cafe, and he could get something and I couldn't get anything, we couldn't go together. And both have something. So I just thought, I think there's something, something there. So that's how it started. And like you said before, 80% of your customers, certainly Metro vegan anyway, so it's just things are amazing. Regardless, it is beautiful. And for someone who says, I'm not sure if I'd like it, I've don't eat vegan foods. If you've never eaten a banana, you've never eaten so Tanner's. I'd like to just name off our 1000 foods that are vegan, they're accidentally vegan, if you just want to put them in that category. I mean, and vegans just it's in inverted commas. It tends to make some people shy away from trying something. So yeah, sometimes you need to change the language, which the diehard vegans don't like. But I, my philosophy is if we can get 80% of people eating less meat in a week, it's going to make more of an impact than 20% of the population only being vegan and the rest not doing anything. So if you add that all together, I think it is going to make more of a difference. So I'm all for incremental changes, if that's what you need to do, but definitely more plant based meals is the way to go. And being accepting of people like I feel like the hardcore, it's like it's my way or the highway, sort of off putting. Yeah, that's that's sort of sad. It's like it's alienating to Pete yet. I want to educate, not alienate, I want to I want people to be able to say to me say anyway, because people know why they should. They don't know how they should. Yeah, that's what I think I think people need to be shown how to do it or, or have some tips on because I take it for granted that everyone knows how to cook something without meat, eggs or dairy. But it's not if that's what You've been brought up with and that's what you've done your whole life. Yeah, that's it's hard to know. Yeah. I remember when I started work as a first job I had outside of my family when I was not eating meat at me, and the girls will operate, what do you eat? Like everything else except for me. Like, it was just people couldn't get their head around that there is other things in the world, everything that doesn't come from animals. Like it's just. Yeah. And that was only 10 years ago. Yeah. It's just Yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Is it is, but it's, it's coming along? Yes, the fastest growing social justice movement in the world. So. And I think too, because of this whole focus on the climate to show the meat industry contributes so much to that, you know, the US so much water, they the emissions from the cows. And actually, someone told me the other day, that the biggest consumer of fish in the world is the meat industry, because they catch the fish to feed to the cows. And I don't think many people would know that. So this is the first time you're hearing that, and I hope you feel shocked. You're shocked desire was, look, it's important. We could You could sit here all day and talk about the statistics on some things, you know, it's terrifying, really. But there's no excuse for not knowing any more. We've got the internet, Google it. It's not, don't don't shoot the messenger. You've got your fine if you really want to know. It's all there. And once you know some of the stuff from listening, and not if you've watched any of the documentaries, you can't unsee it either. So yeah. So yeah, off my soapbox now. It's a great, it's a great topic. And I like those conversations peacefully with people. I don't. I'm not here to have an argument. And I and I've been targeted many a time at a at a dinner where someone knows I'm the I'm the vegan at the table. And you know, it doesn't happen very often. But it has happened to me before where I've sort of been baited, if you like, and goaded into a. And I just put my hand I'm sorry, I'm not I don't, I won't debate it. This is where I'm at with it. And you can do your own research. But I'm certainly not going to have a stand up argument with anybody. Yeah. And I think sometimes that says more about the person that's doing that, but they hear that they're feeling insecure about their choices, and, and it's coming out in that way. But yeah, I people used to say to me, people still do say to me, if we're out for tea, and they're eating meat, and they're like, oh, sorry, we're eating this in front of you. I'm like, You do what you do. Like I've never judge anyone names. So you know, if you want to eat it, you eat it, that's fine. That's up to you. I'll do my thing. You do your thing. And, you know, for feeding to get such a bad rap, you know, make somebody like a joke on social media or, you know, best way to start an argument and barbecue invited vegan, you know, like all this sort of rubbish. It annoys me people that don't choose not to eat animals, I think the most kind and caring people you'll ever find. Definitely, definitely. And there's always those figures and I'm doing the right Yeah, but there's always those Christians too. There's always those everything is yeah, it's it's the person not the cause. Yes, that is so true, right? That person. If they weren't vegan, they would be something else. They'd be an extreme something else. Yeah. So it's unfair to label all vegans as extreme because we're not. We just want a better world. I guess. I started it for my health. And that's why I went forward with it. At first, but once I knew, I knew so I was talking to someone the other day actually, he started for the health too, and then discovered more and more and same thing that ethical side comes in. It's very interesting. It is an interesting topic, but yeah, yeah. So tell me more about your business. What sort of products are you making in your business and and what's your sort of most popular? Well, the snickers Cup, the snickers cup? I do digital invoicing so I can tell in my program, what's the biggest seller and which outlet sells the most and whatnot and snickers four to one of everything else. Close second are the Biscoff rocky roads coming along? Quite quickly behind it, but the granola bars are probably set canned, and I've, I've packaged those now, I'm not a fan of the plastic, but due to the health regulations, I have to have them in packaging at in the shoes of things, fridges and things like that. And at this point, there's no other option that's come up, you're working on lots of different options that are a bit more, you know, compostable, compostable. So that will be good. But I've got the packaged granola bars for different outlets now. And they're proving to be really popular because people can pick them up and throw them in the bag, and you know, take them to the gym or whatever. So that's really good. But my range of granola is amazing. It's, I mean, it's like mine. But the sales speak for themselves and the feedback that I get with my package granola, and the original Dayton Arman has been around for seven years now, that was my original one that I took to the markets when I started to do the markets. And I haven't changed the recipe at all, it's stayed the same. And I'm passionate about the same recipe, rub off and jokes with me, and any says, oh, you know, you know, go and get that recipe and, you know, you probably should write that recipe down or, and I'll say something about an ingredient who was so go and check your recipe. So it's not actually written down. He says, how does that work? I say because I know, I just know, I know the recipe. I've, I've scaled that one from, you know, six little bags that I used to take to the market to you know, I make 20 2300 gram bags in one batch of each flavor. So you know, the bowl has gone from, you know, the business can't see but it's gone from this to I've got these massive big stainless steel balls on the bench, you know, that I'm super, super proud of my granola, I'm proud of all my products. I'm really proud of my products. I've gone into sweets, but it didn't start like that it started with savory meals. That's how it started. But it's just evolved into sweets and, and most of them are, you know, whole food, sweets with, you know, not massive amounts of sugar or anything like that little bit of sugar in the chocolate. And then it was my youngest daughter who was vegan for some time and she just said to me one day she said mum, she said I love all the healthy stuff or the you know, air quotes again, the healthy you know, super wholesome stuff. But she said I'm craving something rubbish. something sugary, something she she's the she was the one that got me to start with the donuts. Yeah, she said I just would love a doughnut that's vegan, but it's oozing sugar and you know, all that decadent stuff. And I sit on it goes so against my grain. She said no, ma'am, but, but maybe that's what people would like. And I went oh, like it was like a cheddar arm up behind my back. Please, please. So I relented and the donuts went gangbusters. Yeah, they were just couldn't keep up with cheese, which would call me every second day. Um, random doughnuts. Doughnuts. And yeah, I had my whole bent kitchen bench was just wall to wall doughnuts, you know, laid out, you know, steaming, you know, calling and I was icing and getting them into containers and labels and taking them back down to shoes apples and, and, and my daughter's gone. See what I'm talking about? Mom? Okay, you're right. So then, you know, I've got I've got a few lines that aren't the wholesome type. But you know, people love those as well. So there's a place for both. Yeah, but I will always always focus on the whole food. You know, the really decadent or the decadent, healthy lines. And I'll always have some decadent, not quite so many lines. But it's the balance. Yes, exactly. Balance. Yeah. So you you make it all here, nothing gets made anywhere else will perish. And with oh, he saw with these two hands. Yeah. And I thought and I thought and had it suggested to me many a time that I should scale the business and, you know, do more and send it to more places and get it out there more. But I'm a real people person. And I I don't know, maybe it's cutting off my nose to spite my face because I'm sure the business could be much bigger. But I I want it to be my two hands. And I want to I like to hand deliver my things, you know, go down to Metro and Tony and I'll have a hug and stand out the back and talk about the meaning of life. And yeah, we talked for five minutes about just Frank and you know what she's doing there and then and then we go Want to other things and, and I love that. And if I don't if I don't do that I'm just in the kitchen by myself. And that's quite isolating at times, just to be by yourself, you know, with your own thoughts. And when you're an anxiety sufferer like I am your own thoughts aren't always the best thing to be with by yourself. But yeah, I love to get out. And sometimes if I'm lucky, I'll I'll sit in the cafe and I'll see somebody eating my food, which is like, blows my mind every time I'm nearly eight years down the track and to see someone with a plate with my food on it, enjoying it with their coffee. Yeah, it's us to have to pinch myself. It's pretty awesome. It is pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. I love that. So you do have some of your products do go to Adelaide when you go to Adelaide. With Yeah, take a I've got a cafe in West Croydon up there. Joy flora, and beautiful Mark. He he supports my little business and his customers love my goodies. They're completely different to what he has there. So yeah, he's he's always flicking me a message saying when you're coming next, I need some more. Or if my girl was at home, they'll take they'll take him. They've just taken a delivery back this weekend for him. So he claps his hands. He says, Yeah. And he has to ration it out. Like yeah, keeps it keeps it in his cool room. And he just puts out a couple at a time because he says he wants them just buy it all. And then I don't know when you're coming next. And freight so expensive. It's just, it's just ridiculous to probably cost me $40 To send him a box, and you lose that personal connection is so cool. Yeah. You say, Yeah, I love it. I love going up there and seeing him and we have a have a certain. And again, talk about the meaning of life. And I don't know, I just seem to attract these really deep people. And you don't talk about the weather. We talk about other stuff. And I love it. You love it. So you've also had a gardening business in the past? I have, I have and a lot of people don't know that. And what a contrast from this to that. So in 2009, after 22 years together, my husband and I separated. And I've been a stay at home mum for you know, probably 16 of those years and had done paid work in that time. But I've always we made a we made a very firm decision together when we first had children that I would stay home. And he would go to work very traditional. Probably the feminists now would be like, What the hell? What century are you from, but we loved it. We absolutely loved it. It was that whole, you know, he had well, he'd call me he was he at the time he was a rep on the road. And he would call me and he would say I'm going to be home at 530. So 530 on the dot, he'd walk in the door, he'd go straight to the bedroom get changed, and I put tea on the table, the kids would all come in and it was our family times that we'd sit down and talk about our day and it was the highlight of the day. And you know, he had come home to the fire was going and he quite often comments on it's just so nice to walk inside and the kids were laughing and laundry they were laughing every day. And mum wasn't either. But it was a very traditional in air quotes, you know, that kind of situation that we had and we just we both loved our roles. So, when we separated I thought what am I going to do? So I was offered a part time job which I was happy to take and we agreed when we separated on a 5050 split which we discussed at length and we were both happy with that situation we were freehold so we just decided who was having what car and I'm making it sound very cold and emotionless. But you know, I think we can probably you can probably gather that it wasn't like that. But for the purposes of just saying how it was. And we had also we'd been in the house for 20 years so it was very firmly a family home and and when we bought the house there was no garden there was nothing so we I'd spent the majority of that time building the most beautiful if I do say so myself, it was just a magnificent garden with big trees and you know, it was gorgeous. And my ex husband wasn't a big fan of gardening on that scale. So it was agreed that I would buy him out of his share. And he would he would then go on and and do whatever he needed to do with that then the girls would then stay in the home as well. So That's what we agreed to say. We got the finances sorted. We, we got a solicitor each for the purposes of paper signing, not for arguing. And he went off and sign his and I went off and signed mine. My solicitor highly encouraged me to take him to the cleaners basically, and take more than what we'd agreed upon. And when I, when I said to him, No, I'm not doing that. And he, he said, Well, I can't believe you're gonna do that cuz you are entitled to more. And I said, that's what we've agreed to. We've worked together to build what we had. And I said, No, my girls are watching. And I want to be able to look at my children one day, and then look at me, and no, I didn't take their dad to the cleaners, because there's no need for that. And I just didn't want to do that. So we settled and, you know, did our thing. I went off to the bank, and made an appointment and sat down with the, the male bank person, you know, stated my case, I had a part time job coming up, and I had more than more than, you know, like, I had more than what I needed to, you know, do what I needed to do. And he flipped through his papers. And he said, All I can see, you know, I can see your husband's name here as the financial contributor. I mean, it were the house was jointly owned, but he, he was the one that, you know, his name was on the finances and things like that. And he said, I can't see. Can't see here anywhere where you know, you've done too much. And, you know, you'll need to, because, because stay at home, mother was not only raised the children, yeah, the next generation of taxpayers, if you like. So he said, Well, I said, Well, I've got part time work. So and it was, you know, like, for me to pay his share out was, you know, it wasn't a massive, it's not like I was I was asking for the whole amount. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And he said, Well, you need to, you need to go out and get full time work. And you'll need to do that for 12 months before, we will look at the fact that you can actually contribute to your repayments. So, I mean, I'm reparable about that. Now, when I look back, and every time I think about it, it makes my makes me so angry. But at the time, I understand they had to, they had to know they were going to get their money, I get that. So I walked out of the bank, devastated and devastated. It's probably an understatement. But turns out that because of time, my husband didn't want to wait. So he ended up buying me out. But he he got he got approval medically, he got overnight approval, he bought me out, paid me out the whole thing, the whole thing was settled. So my girls and I moved out, got a rental. And the only way I could get the rental because I had no rental history was to pay six months rent upfront. So out of my share of our settlement, I had to take $8,000 and pay for a house for us to live in for six months. And then I thought, well, what am I going to do for work now? Because you know, if I'm going to buy a house, eventually I'm going to need full time work. So I thought I have no idea what I'm going to do. Say, when one day I was driving along, whatever new and I saw this, little youth parked on the side of the road, and it got me thinking I thought what am I good at? Well, I'm good at cooking, and I'm good at gardening. And there, that's the extent of my skills, really. So I thought, right, so anyway, I went back, I drove back to the UK, and I got the guy's phone number and I called him up and I made an offer and it was it was like a $1,200 unit nothing. I got it for $1,000. So I called up my girls and I said I need someone if I come home. I need to pick someone up and come back and help me pick this caravan. They're like, what the hell man? What are you doing? And I said, Well, I've just bought this little unit. I'm going to throw my gardening tools in it. And I'm going to try and get some gardening work around town. And they said a rodeo. Okay. So I got the you took it home threw all my tools in and at the time I lived. You know, we live in a colder SAC and Father Brian Ashworth lived at the end of the cold reset for the Anglican Church. And him and his wife were walking past and then I said oh, what are you what are you doing here? And I said, Oh, well um, I didn't know what I was going to do for a job. So I'm going to see if I can get some gardening work. Ah, well, we've got some things down here that we need doing. They had like a terrorist garden, and he couldn't get up anymore. The steps to do the gardening, so they got me to have a look. And I said, Yeah, that's great. I'll come down to your wedding and mow your lawns. And, of course, big congregation at the Anglican Church isn't. So Brian told someone and that person told someone and before I knew it, I had six or seven clients. So I thought, well, I probably need to get myself a an accountant to sort out all these 1000s and 1000s of dollars that I'm going to make. that I needed to, I needed to get tongue in cheek for sure. I needed to sort my finances out. So I invested an accountant and I went to the accountant, and we're going through all my, my things. And he said, so watch this lump sum of money that you've got sitting here in the bank, which was the settlement from the house. And I said, I Well, that's my, that's my settlement. And he said, Well, why is it sitting here in the bank? He said, You know, you would probably really should be doing something with that. And I said, Well, I wanted to buy a house, but the bank have refused to give me any money. And he said, Well, that's interesting. He said, Have you sought the services of the financial advisor? And I said, No. And he said, Well, Marian Kilsby, she's just around the corner. at MITRE, she said, You, you need to pop around there and have a chat to her, she'll be able to help you out. And I said, Ah, you know, Jennifer really want to do that I'm pretty broken by that. And I just don't want to be refused. Again, I'd rather just sit the money there. And I'll just see what happens. It's a nice, and I think she'll be able to help you. So I made an appointment with Marian, I'd never met Mary. And before I got to my appointment, and I had, I remember having a hanky stuffed in my pocket, and I was walking my eyes, I just didn't want to have to go in there and, and go through this again. So she called me in, got to walked up the hallway and got to the door. And she stopped at her door to sort of, you know, flag me through and she looked at me, she could see I'd been crying. And she said, what's wrong. And I said, I, you know, I'm just broken by all this. And you know, I just didn't really want to have to go through this whole situation with the bank. And she kicked the door shut with her stiletto heel, she pushed a box of tissues across the table. And she said, that'll be the last time we're going to cry about this. She said we've got some work to do. So we we spent the next hour going through everything. And she said, Nope, she said, look, let's let's get your house, she said, have you seen something you're like I see I have I've seen this beautiful house that I would like to buy. And it's not huge. And it's you know, it's an older home. And I really, really love it. And it's just I probably didn't realize at the time, but it was a similar style to the home that that had been married to her money, it was just a bit smaller. But the layout was literally exactly the same just minus didn't have the big family room, and I didn't need that anymore. So she said, Well, you go and get yourself an inspection. And this is the amount that I think we'll be able to get for you if you want to go and borrow some money from the bank. And I said, Are you are you joking? She said, No, no, she said, off you go. So I booked it. I booked an inspection at the house and went through the house by myself. I didn't take the girls, I just thought I just need to do this in case in case it all comes back to bite me. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up about it. Had a look. Went back to Marian and I told her about it. She said if you go and make an offer, go make an offer on it. So I made an offer. And we did a bit of that was in forwards and put the offer in, gave that to Marian and she called me that night and she said well, you've got phone approval from the bank. And like I literally dropped to my knees. And I said, Don't tell me you're not joking. I said what are the chances of this all going sour? And she said, it's probably not. It's it's for real. And you know, I think I think you'd be right. So back to the real estate agent and my loan was approved and I bought my house. So that's how the gardening happened. And the gardening just grew and grew and grew. And it got to the point where I couldn't keep up anymore by myself. So I employed someone that didn't end up end up working out because you know, it wasn't quite the right person. And by then my body was pretty broken. I was I mean I was wielding chainsaws and you know, I my husband, my ex husband called me up one day and he said, he said someone's just come back to work and told me they saw you on wheel street with a chainsaw cutting the limbs off an overhanging tree on the footpath. That's right. What are you doing? I say, Well, I'm trying to earn a living here. He said, My goodness. He said that's a lot. And I said yes, a lot. But I did that for almost five years. And my customers were when I look back on that my customers were I really struggled with empty nesting. And my customers were my people. They were my family. They were I go Mostly for the elderly, mostly elderly women who were on their own. I had a few beautiful elderly gentleman as well. He lost their wives. And almost every gardening, like I booked, I booked an eight hour day. But probably six hours was working two hours was cups of tea. Yeah. So I mean, you can't can't garden for an 85 year old without having a cup of tea at the end and connection for them as well. I had one particular lady who used to wait on the footpath for me to come, she was coming at a certain time. And she would, she would wait out for me. But the bonds are built with those customers. Where was everything for me, they were they were like another family, it was the best. So yeah, I did that. And then my body started to break. And my GP at the time was one of my very, very dearest friends. And she kept saying to me, Leah, you just cannot keep doing this. I had neck issues, I had shoulder issues, my back was virtually broken. And I just kept going and going and going because A, I didn't want to let my people down. They were I just couldn't let them down. And I didn't know what else I was going to do for a job, or now had this mortgage, which wasn't huge. But I used to have, I used to wake up in the night in a hot sweat. And I used to lay there and like I'd wake up startled. And I'd think and I'd be crying. And I'd say to myself, You are totally responsible for this mortgage on your own. Like there's, there's no one to bail you out. Now, like I said, it wasn't big, but just that, like when you've been married for so long. And you've always got that person next to you. If you know if something happens, you've you've got them and you can feed off each other and get through it together. But when you when you're doing it by yourself and I was doing Need I say or hesitate to say man's a man's job. It was a male dominated business that I was working in. I did find out once there was a crew of gardeners who have more than one vehicle around town. That one Christmas one of their Christmas shows they had they were making bets on how long it would last in the business. They were laughing Ah at my at the fact that I was doing it. And they were making taking bets as to how long I would be in the business. So but anyway, five years ago, five years. So yeah, that was that was seen, well offered, I would have thought that would have upset me when I was told that. And I was told by another gardener who was at that Christmas show. And he came back to me and he said that we said you wouldn't you should have heard them. I thought it would have made me sad, but it actually infuriated me. And it drove me to work even harder. And it's probably how I broke myself. Because I'm like, I'll show you Yeah, and then and then now, you know, I had a lot to prove I had a lot to prove to myself and to the fact that it was a male dominated industry that I was working in. And at that time, I was the only female out there doing it. And I think that's why I appealed to the female, the elderly females that I worked for, because I think they felt safe. I had the keys to a lot of gates and gardening sheds and and I often wouldn't tell them I was going to be there I'll just open the gate and walk in knock on the door. So I think they felt safe me wandering around the yard. And yeah, you know, it was a different a different thing for them rather than having a guy No offense to the guys. But yeah, I think it's just a fact very, very reasonable to say. Absolutely. So my body was telling me it was time. And I had been sharing recipes on my Facebook page just to my friends, you know, I made this and, and it's funny a memory came up the other day. And it was funny how many people would say Oh, well, that's really nice. And then I'd write I'll share the recipe with if you like, and someone would say, Oh, yes, please. And then someone would go, Oh, me too, please and meet it. And it just went from two people asking for the recipe to you know, 789 people and then I started a blog. So I had a blog and I'd share my recipes on the blog and that that grew. And then I thought, Ah, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a little trial. I'm going to make some morning teas and I'm going to take them to a couple of places for free. And I'm not going to tell them they're vegan. And I'm just gonna say so Marian from modest home loans was one I messaged her and I said hey, Marian, you want to be part of a little trial. Just want to bring in some morning teas for you. So off, and I just want to see how they use and mortgage real estate was the other. So I did that for a while and they're like, ah, that's amazing. Yeah, where were you know, it was no one no one could tell. And that's good. Then I then I started making morning teas and advertising them on my Facebook page that I would deliver to workplaces. And that went really well. Then I thought, Oh, that's cool. Maybe I could make a menu. So I made a menu. So it was a three course lunch. So it was a snack, a main and a dessert. And I made a different menu every week. And people could order from the menu. And they would, they would pay me in cash when I got there, or they could direct deposit and, and I just put them in my car and I would drive them around. So I registered my kitchen and got all that past and started that. Now I was working. I was working four days a week in my gardening business from 630 in the morning to whenever it was dark was when I backed the youth back into the driveway. Fly out of the year on a Thursday night jump in the shower. check my emails to get all my how many people were going to order I'd literally do an all nighter and I kid you not I would I would work and you asked my girls, the couple that were still home. I would work literally through the night to four or five o'clock in the morning. Have quick sleep, jump up, pack all the orders up. And Friday was delivery day. So I'd work Friday morning, throw everything in the car and 11 o'clock and deliver everything. Well that just got out of control. Like you got to be careful what you wish for. So that so then I cut Thursdays out of my gardening business. So it was manage Tuesday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday menus. That group started doing markets on the weekend. So it was Monday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday, Saturday preparation for a Sunday market. And I was just working I was working 18 hour days every day. So it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday gardening and getting out of the ute, throwing all my dirty clothes in a pile having a shower, getting dressed and then straight into the kitchen. It was ridiculous. Yeah. And it wasn't long before. My not only my physical body, but my mental health just did a spiral when I can remember the day that it happened. It was like a, it was an actual moment that I remember, this is out of control, and I can't keep doing it. But then, then I just don't know how to put it into words. I'd built these businesses from scratch. And I still get really emotional about my gardening business about letting it go. Because the process of letting something go that you built from scratch. And that was a crutch for me through some of my darkest moments after my marriage breakup. And I couldn't just give these people to somebody else. Yeah. You had a real relationship, didn't you? Yeah. And Mike can bless his heart. He said, You know, you've got a sellable business here. Let's let's value the business. And because I had one, I bought a beat up all year, but I upgraded to a near New to our highlights that I paid cash for. I had a trailer built from scratch a great big trailer with all the toolboxes and I paid cash for that. And I was so proud of what I've built. And my ex husband was proud of me too, you know, he, he, he was really proud of what I what I what I built and how I pulled myself up and got back on my feet. And I said to my accountant, I can't. This is exactly what I said to myself, I can't give I can't sell my people. And he just looked at me and he said, I know what you're saying, but, but this is a sellable business. I said I can't sell my people. That's the bottom line. I understand that I'm probably throwing money down the drain, but I can't do it. I said I can sell all my plant and equipment. But I need to find homes for my people. So I hand picked other gardeners that I knew. And I had a couple of guys that had often helped me throughout the years. And if I had a really heavy job that I couldn't do, I call up these couple of guys who are friends to this day. They're just the most beautiful men. And I rang them and I said, Hey, how many people can you take on because I've got this lady and I think she'd really suit you. And I've got this gentleman who's got a big lawn so your ride on mower would be really cool. And between us, we worked it out. They took they took this one and that one and I took I met them there and introduce them to these people. I couldn't I couldn't it took me it took me 12 months to ease myself out of the business and and it wasn't until I knew everybody was okay. That I let it go and I still kept to to Alienware I was doing just Frank full time and I was in the full swing of it. I had two beautiful women that I kept that I just couldn't let go. And I knew one sadly was not going to be with us for a long time. So I kept her to the end. And the other lady I eventually left Got it because I just couldn't keep doing it. So that was how I got out of gardening. That's massive, isn't it? It was it's a real big, almost grieving process. It was that 12 months, I'm moving through those stages. That's huge. And my partner now Rob, he, he held my hand all the way through. At first, he was a bit like my account, and he's like, just sell it, let it go. And he saw how many meltdowns I had. I said, I can't and it won't matter how you how you explain it to me. I just can't do it. It just meant it. Just it was like it'd be like selling my mum. Yeah, because that's who they were to me. They were just, you know, beautiful, beautiful people, and I couldn't do it. So I sold my plant and equipment. And that was easy. Yeah. It was easy, but But I worked hard for those things to that I partnered with those and I swapped the Toyota Hilux for a little Holden Combi van that I had signed, written with just Frank emblazoned all over the site. And I had a different vehicle to sell a different thing. So yeah, and it just grew. She's apples and matrei. I cannot speak highly of for the support they've given me Tony from Metro was the first person to put a hand up and say, bring it in here. We'll have it in. I took my first products in there. And she's apples. Yeah. There have been amazing they. They let me do they just give me free rein. Yeah. I know. That probably sounds if they they'll listen to this. And they'll be like, Yeah, we pretty much do. I mean, I just I just went in the other day and spoke to Raleigh and I said, Hey, Raleigh. I've got he handles all the all my granola on the shelf. It's his department. I said, Hey, Raleigh, I've got a new product coming that's that I want to put on the shelves. It's not not refrigerated. It's a do it. Like a make it home mix in a bag? Yeah, cool. Let us know when you bring it in, we'll make it make a space on the shelf. I mean, how good is that? Yeah. I mean, they're just, they're just that my biggest supporters, and they support so many small businesses in our community. You can ask for more than they can. Yeah, that's fantastic, isn't it is it is I'm so grateful. And as I said, Tony has been a mentor as well. She's mentored me through some break down moments where I've said, I don't know which way to take this, you know, maybe I'll just throw it all in on it's too much. And she said, just take a minute, just scale it just take out the things you don't want to do. You know, she's, she's sat there and talked me off a cliff a few times. And she doesn't need to, she probably wonders why haven't come in lately, but to have those chats, but I've I think she's taught me a lot about how to manage things. And don't let things get out of hand, don't do things you don't want to do say no, when you need to say no. And I'm pretty good at that. Now. Yeah, that's a big thing, too. For women, but also people that are really highly sensitive energetically, you are, because our first instinct is to just please go yes, no worries, I'm gonna do that. And then you think about afternoon, Oh, crap, how am I going to do it, and then you burn yourself into a hole to satisfy other people. So that is a big thing to be able to say that. And you know what, I'd be lying. If I said it also wasn't an ego thing. Yeah. Because, of course, if people love your stuff, and they want it, you just want to keep on giving, giving, giving, giving, because he would I feel would I be to say, you know, no, I don't want you to showcase my product, you know. And if I was 20 years younger, maybe I would have scaled it, maybe I would have, maybe I would have found the right person to help me and I would have scaled it. But you know, I don't want to do that. Now. I want it to be me. And I love and I've contained it now. You know, you've made it manageable for you to keep maintaining what you're doing because I was going to burn out for sure. And I saw that and my mental health was suffering big time. And menopause is a bitch. Let me tell you menopause is nearly bought me unstuck. Anxiety was like it hit me. You know, I thought menopause was hot flashes. And that's really all I'd seen my mum go through. Yeah. And yeah, when it when it hit, it was a bitch. And it nearly took me anxiety was mean, Rob will tell you I used to. It kept me in the house. Yeah. And when I was when I was delivering meals, I would I would get all my deliveries lined up ready to go. And I would quite often have to call him because we didn't live together then. I would quite often have to call him and he would. He would literally have to talk me step by step out of the house, to the car. And to the first place once I was at the first place. I was fine. But actually leaving the house and I think it was a bit of impostor syndrome, as well. I think I was like it, I was fine while I was cooking it was fine while I was getting the orders off my website and you know, my emails and all the things, but once it came to actually coming face to face with the people I was like, Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? With your name written on your car driving around, pretending you're somebody you know people think you do these things and oh, wow, that's so cool. She's, you know, got this successful business. They really have no idea what goes on. In your mind sometimes. Yeah, because it's not it's not all what it appears on the outside. I want to go to a point where you you talked about being an empty nester. So you have three daughters. I do, obviously they're not living in your wetsuit. I have two in Adelaide. So my eldest and middle daughter, Cassie and Mia. They're both in Adelaide. And I had Georgia here and Matt cambia. Thank Good. Thank goodness, one of them stayed. I yeah, I don't, I totally understand why they've, you know, gone. Mia went off to uni when she was 19. And and I remember driving my husband I had had separated not long before. And I can't swear because he swore when he said it to me, but I can't swear on here, can I? So we were so we we made a pact with each other when we separated that we would always parent Well, together, we would continue to parent, our girls were 2119 and 14 when we separated. So they weren't babies. But it's still it's still impactful on the family unit. No matter what age they are. But I guess a little bit easier when they're older. They they knew things weren't great at home. So the writing was on the wall. But we We vowed that no matter what happened between us, we would we would still do our best to parent with the first 12 months were a bit bit rocky while everyone navigated and there was a lot of hurt and the normal things that go on in in a breakdown. But we wanted to drive me to uni ourselves together. So what who does that who separates from the husband then gets in a car in a confined space for five hours and drive somewhere? You can't get out. But you can just open the door. It was quiet. Let's just say it was quiet. So we drove her up to Flinders, and we took her in and it was orientation day and all the things and we, you know, took her up to her room and we got her settled and then it was time to go. Well, me, Cassie, Cassie had moved out that Mia was the second one. Cassie was still in town that me was the first one to move away. Say I was I was such a hands on mum. I'll stop short of saying I was a helicopter parent because I don't think I was a helicopter parent. I've actually asked my girls since that terms been thrown around. I've said to my girls, do you think I was a helicopter parent? I said no. But I just was there. I was just there. When I was needed. I was there and sometimes probably when I was not needed or not wanted I was there. But it was it was gut wrenching to leave her there. And we walked out of we walked out of the building. And we were walking back to the candidate like I was sobbing. I was sobbing and he was walking behind me. And he knew what kind of Mama was say, you know, he probably shouldn't have said it. But he said, What's wrong with you? And I turned around, I said, you know what's wrong with me? And he said, Oh, I don't know why you're crying. I'm actually not fucking dying. Well, it's a long way from Adelaide to make me when you're just looking out the window. You're not speaking to each other because I never spoke. I never spoke to him all the way home I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. I cried. I cried all the way home and I probably cried for the next week, because I knew I knew she wasn't coming back. I knew once she went to Adelaide and she found her new life. She wasn't coming back. And that's okay. That's okay, because that's what they're meant to do. And, and we're meant to let them spread their wings and fly. But nothing prepared me for, for how I was going to navigate that myself. And because I'd been such a hands on Mum, I didn't know who I was. And I think even when, when our marriage was nearing the end, I could see the writing on the wall, like, you know, the oldest one starts leaving the house a bit more. So you've got to, and then the next one starts to go. And we had a, we had a five year gap between our middle daughter and Georgia. So say, they the two were gone, and Georgia was still home a lot. And then they'd come back. And you know, things ebbed and flowed. But the times when it was just Georgia and, and my husband and I, I remember, I could feel it, I would look, I would look around and I could feel the anxiety and I was looking around, I was thinking like, I'm doing the movement, no one can see me, but I'm doing the movements. Now. While I'm telling you, because I can tell you that it makes me anxious, because I could see it coming. And the panic. And for anyone that knows me, well, I had an eating disorder. Around that time, sort of maybe maybe four years before we separated. And I think it was, I think it was the struggle of me trying to find myself. And I didn't know who I was I had I had, I didn't have anything else yet. I mean, I didn't have I hadn't made it. I didn't have a career. I mean, I've been an Avon rep for 15 years, I sold Avon. And that's how we saved that extra bit of money. And I worked at spotlight part time for a few hours here and there. But I've never I didn't know who I was apart from being someone's mom, someone's wife and someone's mom. So when I when I actually was present in the moment, and I could see it coming. I was literally panic stricken. What the hell am I going to do with my life? And I looked across at my ex husband bless his heart, and I thought we hadn't worked on our relationship. We didn't do these date nights that people do now. And we didn't have holidays by ourselves. We had one night out a year. And that was for our anniversary. So we did. We took holidays with our children. I mean, we took our kids on a honeymoon because we had to before we were married. Yeah. So we took the kids on our honeymoon. So when we dropped me off and came back, I, my marriage had fallen apart. My daughter had just left and gone to Adelaide, which I'm not, I'm not blaming her. I'm just saying this was a huge thing to get happened all together in my life. My eldest daughter have moved out when once I bought my house and moved into it, she moved out it was and she was ready to do that she was probably going to do that anyway. So I moved into my new home with with my middle daughter, my youngest daughter, well, then, my middle daughter went to Adelaide and I came back. And it was it was Georgia and I in the house. And that was fantastic. Because we shared some wonderful moments together. But I just didn't know what was going to happen next. I had no clue what was going to happen. And Georgia had a boyfriend and so she was out of the house a lot. And man a man did I have to do some soul searching in those times. There were like, you know, have you ever cried that guttural kind of cry? You know, there's the kind that it hurts every part of your body. And it's that, that I remember sitting in front of my fireplace on my little stool that I had there. And it was just Yeah, I was empty. run dry? Didn't I just didn't know how I was going to go to the next bit. That you did, though? I did. Yeah, I did. And all these, you know, there's, you look back and you think of all the people that you think you did it by yourself, but no one does it by themselves. No one does it without little things that happen, you know, Marian, with the the finances and my accountant. You know, people like that who you just he just steered you a little bit in that direction. I had a had a wonderful mentor while I was gardening and Rolton he mentored me, he taught me off mini cliff when I was because it was it was hard being in that industry. And he supported me. You know, he supported me and his wife, Kate, they were just amazing to me in that time. And they you know, I was often on the phone to him having a spoke about something and I remember one day he said to me, Leah, he said, he said this is this is hard for me to tell you. He said you need to take your big girl hat off and you need to put your business hat on. He said you need to get your tissue out of your pocket, wipe your eyes and straighten yourself up and you need to get back to it if that's what you're going to do. And and it was hard to hear because I was because you know I had my my little girl hat on the inside. And that was what was driving me was my little girl heart. But I had to I put my little girl hat there. The Big Business Big Man business heartening because I was dealing with the men out there. Yeah. And my little girl hat wasn't gonna cut it. Big life lessons they were because I, I mean, you know, and trust me to, I don't just do things in half, I never do. So rather than just ease myself into life on my own gently, I'm now just going to rip off all the band aids and I'm going to throw myself into that, you know, gotta get a chainsaw. And I'm gonna change my Lego to cut so Yeah, no worries. Yeah, no, I did. And I'm going to, I'm going to change mine. Mine flat tire out there on AB flat when I get stuck and, you know, got bogged, got bogged, and had to get someone to come and help me out of the matter. I could do a whole podcast on that. Listen stories in there, but I did. I did. But yeah, you've done some massive stuff, haven't you? Do you look back on that and feel really proud of all the stuff that you've done? If you've achieved this stuff? Yeah, I do. But it's still. I still have terrible self esteem. Yeah, after all, that I still don't feel good about myself. And I still, I still struggle terribly with impostor syndrome. Terribly with that, you know, I have to pinch myself. And, and people think a comment on Facebook is like, you know, I put a post up yesterday about my, my famous veggie burgers. And so many people have commented on this thing, though. My favorite thing, though, my favorite thing. And look, I was reading them last night. And I'm thinking, are they talking about me? And you think you think that you read that? And it's an ego trip? Because everyone's telling you how good Yeah, but I'm looking at that. And I actually had to go back through some old stuff. And and remind myself that I did do that. Or like the Neil deliveries, I have to remind myself and it's only if it comes up in my Facebook memories. And I go into Robin, I say, how was I doing that? And gardening as well. And he said, I remember. I don't even know how you did it. He said you just I was on autopilot the whole time. But yeah, when I look back, I think you know, I wasn't well, when I left my marriage. I was still quite unwell. I was my I was very underweight, very underweight. And that could have gone either way. Like I could have taken that work on and literally killed myself doing it because it was pretty physical. But I somehow I found it, I found it in myself. I'm divine intervention, call it whatever you will. I got on top of it. And you know, I don't consider myself to have any eating issues anymore. And eating it, like an eating disorder. It's not about the food. Yeah, anyone that knows anything about it, ya know? So it's just the vehicle which manifests just be any vicious. How could be alcohol can be gambling, it could be drugs. Yeah. Be exercise. Yeah. Anything? Yeah. Because I've had I had that all the comments, you know, why don't you just go home and start eating again. You know, you'll be fine. I'm like, Well, I wouldn't think that what a great idea. Well, yes, oh, well fell apart. And my kids had to witness it. If i Girls witnessed that, and I'm not, you know, talking about regrets and things. If I could go back and change anything. I wished my girls hadn't seen that. Because I lost time with my girls too. I was fighting for my former life. Come on this time with them. And I guess having them there too, might have what it did, it was it was it was all of it. You know, it was all that kept me going and I think I think all these achievements in my life since particularly since my marriage ended. I've always not not watching in a way that they're supervising but I've always known who's watching and I've always wanted to be a good role model for my girls. I've always wanted to be to be able to show my girls that I got up every time I was down I got back up. Yeah, yeah. And I continued to get back up Yeah. I said I don't do things in house. But I got and and I tell them you know, you can do anything. You can do anything. Good for you want to give your heart or your mind saying we just do what we do. Right? No. I come from a family of fighters, you know, my, my mum and dad, this can be okay. If you weren't, I might go into detail. I come from a family of fighters. My, my parents both had, you know, quite traumatic childhoods themselves, you know, things that happened in their lives. And I've it's obviously not spoken about much because that's the generation Yeah, but I know, I don't know all the details and the the strong people, you know, they've come through those things and my sister as well she's had her own mental health battles, you know, like me. And she's stood up and said, Not today, Satan. She's gotten on with the show, and I'm super, super, super proud of her for how she's gotten on with her life, too. So, you know, I've had had that around me, but I think it's, I think it's from a mom's perspective, I always knew my girls were watching on. And like I said, I just didn't ever want to, I want to show them strengthen. You know, I wanted to be able to look back and say, and I didn't want to miss. I didn't want to miss anything. I didn't want to miss being a grandparent. Yeah, I mean, imagine if I hadn't fought and I just lost my battle with that. I would have missed all of this. And they missed out too. They missed, you know, how many phone calls I get during the week. And hey, mom, or, you know, it can be for advice, or it can be, you know, just when they're having a moment, you know, and I'm so blessed that I still have my mum. Yeah, I had my mum and my dad in very good health at a dad's 86 and mums at one. And I've got so I've got my parents on this side. And I've got my now got my grandchildren. I've got three beautiful grandchildren over here. And I have, it's an interesting place to be, because I'm in the middle. And I'm, I'm helping mom and dad with this. But I've also had the absolute blessing of being able to call my mom and say, Hey, ma'am, you know, when I was really unreasonable when this was happening, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I didn't realize. But shit. It's happening to me now. And man, I'm sorry. I understand now why you were like that, or why? You know why that happened? Because and I know a lot of people don't have their mums. When they get to the point I met with grandchildren, they don't have their mums. And my heart hurts for those women who don't have the mums to say that too. But I'm just lucky. And I do it. I do it. Because it's important to me to be able to tell my mum that I understand now Mum, you know, I get it. And and I'm proud of you mum for it for the way you got through that or you know, whatever. And mother nice to do lock horns. Sometimes she's the only one she's still feisty. We're about that as family though. We got more sometimes that we are lucky that I've been able to tell her. That's lovely and fit. Like, my my pop passed away. Almost a year ago, he was 94 for my boys to have their great grandfather. Like I just kept saying to him, You are so lucky to have a great crowd. Oh, yeah. Like not many people get to have, you know, I just wanted to impress that upon them. Yeah. Well, while they had him, you know? Well, I think I have that relation. Yes. Oh, definitely seen? Definitely. And I look on, you know, I could probably still pick on mum and dad for bits and pieces of things. But you know, we, we will all work with the tools we've got. Yes, we absolutely is no instruction manual. I know that's thrown around a lot that thing, but it's so true. It is. And I tell my girls now that they're parenting themselves. I say that to him. And there's, you know, I say to them, you know that feeling you get here in the pit of your stomach. That's called your gut instinct. And you need to trust it every single time over, over your friends over sometimes your partner if you've got a gut, say got this I don't want to get troubled is the medical profession. They have their place. But I've seen to answer magazines. And you know what, when I look back on all the times, I didn't trust it. I was right every time. Every single time. There's I don't think there's a time that I wasn't right about trusting my gut. And I got myself into some, you know, terrible situations at times because I just went ah, I'm sure this will be fine. It wasn't fun. It was never fun. And yeah, probably go back. You can't honor that. I told I use that for them. I say to them, trust it. Because most of the time, you'll be spot on. Because you just know you know your own babies. So yeah, that's it. No one knows your children better than you do. them. I did it I find it incredible the amount of stories I hear, like through so Sure media mums who weren't listened to? It's like, even now, you think, haven't we evolved enough to know? You know, obviously medicine has its place? Absolutely. But to be able to just don't know. I don't know. I hear what you're saying. And even as women, imminence women off, you try you try getting an appointment, or you try getting into see about a women's issue or anything like that. I'm not going to go into into that. But anyway, it's it's a catastrophe, the system is a catastrophe. And, and I'm not surprised more women don't die. Because of it. Yeah, that's so and I'm sure it happens to men too. If there's any men listening, I'm not. I'm not saying it's, you know, but I can only speak from a woman's perspective because I'm a woman. So I can just say from my experience, I think it's a catastrophe scary. Yep. When with your butt, okay, you've said in the past, haven't you girls, you know, always, you're conscious of them, you know, they're always watching in your role modeling. Do you feel like that even now, when they're, you know, moved away, and growing up that it's there watching how, you know, you run your business authentically. And you've had the chance to, you know, upscale it and do whatever, but you're sticking to this. What's important to you? Probably, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I'm most often think that not even looking. They're so busy with their lives. But but every now and again, they'll come up with a somewhat, we have a Facebook chat. And we have all versions of that we have the family chat group, which is the three girls, their partners, and my partner, then we have the three girls and meet, I'm sure they have a private one of their own that they discussed things that I want to talk about with me. Well, I know they do. Then we have all the versions. So I've got Mara and Cassie, I've got Cassie in Georgia, I've got Georgia and you don't I mean, someone's birthday, and you just want to talk probably maybe we got to check the names really carefully. But every now and every now and then I'll get a message from someone, or they're in the group or out of the group. And they've noticed something. And it makes me cry. Like, there's such beautiful human beings. And they just say the most beautiful things. They're so supportive. They're so they're so proud. They're proud of both their dad and myself. But when they when they say it, almost, I almost feel undeserving of it. Yeah. And it shocks them if they if if they do something like that, or they say something nice and I react that way. So why why does it upset you Mimosa just feel so undeserving of, of their, of their love and care. They're just such beautiful humans, they really are. And I and I do think they see what I'm doing. Because they tell me they're proud. They see it, they see what I'm doing. Or if I get down on myself and I say something in front of them. They remind me they'll say, man, look at what you've done. Like you've run these two successful businesses and like I'm, I'm literally a breath away from paying my house off. It's I can I can touch it. It's happening very, very soon. And they'll they'll say, but you did that yourself. And, and as I said, you don't do anything useful if you've had help, but I haven't been employed by anybody else in that time. Yeah. So I've created these two businesses and and I've done that. And that's, if I think about that, that's big. And that shows them that, although I've had I've had my partner support, you know, here now, I've done that part of it myself. And they've they've watched me come from being a crying mess, literally when it first all started to you know, have stood up and, and got on with the show. And I'm and I think they're great. The product is a great thing for them to see from their mom. I think particularly from their mum. Yes, yeah. And then growing up in that era where there was the traditional role. Yeah, you know, if anyone was going to go out and earn the money was the Dad Yeah. So to have their mother achieve this, you know, that's, that's massive. And it just gives them that confidence that you know, you don't need someone you don't need to be married or a partner of someone who's bringing in money for you. You can go out and do it yourself. Which is huge. And I didn't I mean, it's not like my mum didn't work. My mum worked from the time I went to school my mom worked for so long. I didn't see it. Yeah. But it's what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I remember having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing? You picking your subjects and all that. And, and I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher, and someone was going to be a pharmacist and did it at air and, and I sit on, it came around to me, and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like, it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone who knew 10 to say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said, Yeah, I can, like, I just want to have the house with the fence and the whole thing. And it's, it's truly all I saw for myself. Yeah. Very ambitious. What do you think that came from what you said, your mom, I don't, I don't want to. If my mom listens to this, I don't want my mom to think that she did anything wrong. But my earliest memory as a child was and truly is my earliest memory. And it's really emotional for me is when my mom dropped me off at kindy. Standing it was the head like a, this is how vivid it is. They had a like a cement box that covered the gas meter. And I was and I stood up on the gas meter box held and held it held on to the front fence and I was screaming for my mom she was I can see her walking to the little green Maurice mana that we had, and her getting in the car and leaving me there, which everyone did. And when I left the kids at kindy it's not like she did anything, you know, horrible. And I was out, I was just wanting her to come back. Come back and update. Don't leave me here, ma'am. And I was beside hysterical. And back then. I didn't know what I was wearing. That's how vivid it is. I haven't seen a photo. It's just like, it's like a trauma to me. And I had this beautiful little dress that mom had made and a hand knitted cardigan with buttons down the front and mum used to pin a hankie on the outside with a gold safety pin. And I had my hankie pinned, and I was tugging at my hanky, and she's driving off in the car lift me at kindy. That's my earliest childhood memory. And I think it's stuck with me. It's just stuck with me. And I, and I just never wanted my kids to feel like that. And I know it was a moment, and I'm sure once mom left, and they took me inside. I mean, I don't even remember anyone coming to get me that's I just remembered that. But I'm sure I was fine. I'm sure once I got inside, I was okay. But that sorry for me that that may wanting my mum, I didn't want my girls to have a moment of that. So for me, and and Tony and I spoke about it very early on, he was in full agreement with we that was something we chose together to. I just wanted to be home and I wanted to raise my own children, um, and I locked horns many a time because Mum, mum would say, I will, I'll come and you know, I can come and take them and do this, or I can come and do that. I said, I want to do it myself. And I remember having a big argument with them. When he said you and your bloody independence, it shifts me. And I said, Mom, I didn't have my children for someone else to have them. I want you to be a Nana. But I don't want you to I don't want you to take them and parent them. I don't. I don't want that. And that's how I that's how I chose to be a mom. It's what I wanted to. It's what I wanted to do, you know, I did the and we didn't have much money. It came with sacrifices, because we, you know, it was back when I make it sound like it's back in the ice age. But it was it was a different it was a different time. It was a different time. I mean, so, so much different to now we had, we got paid in an envelope, you know, the money came in a pay envelope, and it came with a pay slip, you know, and we had an exercise book, and Tony would come home on a Friday night with the pay. And we'd get the kids off doing something and we'd sit down, open up the book now. And this is when you paid all your bills you drove you got into cars. I remember doing that with we went to the bank and you paid your house payment. The house payment was just a number of $100. So we'd sit down we'd put all the cash down and we'd sit together and it's like okay, so 100 for that 100 there. The telephone bills $44 If you put everything out to put it in a little envelopes. Got $60 left, that's going to pay for the groceries, anything to do with candy or anyone need clothes or that was that was everything. So when I wrote my shopping list, we can't get the chocolate biscuits and I grew all my veggies from scratch. All of them. I had a we had a big backyard. I had a massive veggie patch. And Tony was Italian and his mum. I mean they were just amazing. They what they didn't gray. Yeah. So she My parents grew veggies too. So between all of us, we all you know, we all were self sufficient. Tony's dad also used to work at the abattoir. So he used to kill all their meat. And this is before Well, before I went vegetarian, but even so we had meat eaters in the house, they they quite often would kill a pig or a sheep or something and bring us around a heap of meat that went in the freezer. But I grew in our grave 50 tomato plants at once and make all my own Persada and yeah, and all the girls, snacks and cakes and biscuits are all cooked from scratch. Didn't not not only could I not afford it, it's it's what I wanted with my day. Yeah, we didn't have we didn't have YouTube to watch or we didn't have Netflix, or we had two channels late and channel two wasn't much to choose from TV actually went off the air. Like it didn't start till 10 o'clock in the morning or something and I took the test pen at night when they're closing this day. Yeah, yep. So So you also couldn't entertain your children with tablets. Yeah, there was no such thing. So you know, you'd get them at the table painting or they'd stand up at the bench I had blue aprons for them and because there was a five year gap between the first two and and the last one that the oldest two would stand up at on chairs at the bench with a little aprons on and they'd help me make biscuit they put the fork marks on the biscuits or make the bowl or you know, I mean the days were full by the time I did all that and we had cloth nappies and no it was a competition between me and the neighbor as to who had the widest nappies on the line and I one by one great soaking soaking nappies and rinsing nappies and all those things. They took time it was though the days were full. Yeah, literally was a full time job. Yep. We've talked about your identity, sort of shift, you know, when the guilds moved, yeah. Because you so strongly wanted to be a man when you became a monk. Was it? Was it what you thought it was gonna be? Or did you was did you sort of your idea? It was it was mostly it was to everything. Yeah, right. I wanted it to be. Yeah, it was. It was everything and I and I'd be lying if I said it was like that every day. Yeah, yeah, there's always ups and downs. Because there were, there was many a day, sitting on a nappy bucket in the laundry with the door shut sobbing into my own arm. While while I could hear the kids laughing out there, you know, there was many a day and I had horrible postnatal depression with my second baby. I had a planned C section she was breech, and they she wouldn't turn say 10 days before her due date. I had a C section. I was partway through her had had an epidural. So I could be awake for it. But they were partway through, bring her out and the epidural wore off. And at that time, it was it was up on the Hill Hospital. And it was a teaching hospital. They were 13 Student midwives in the theater. And I could see my reflection in the theater light. I could see the screener. Oh, it was it was the worst. It was the worst. So they had a head out. And I got I started to get feeling back. And And I'm saying I can feel that I can feel it. And I was starting to panic. And Dr. Foy is saying remember Dr. For you at all, Dr. Boyce saying no. It's just the you can feel the sensation. I said, No. I can feel it. I can feel it. And I was like I was starting to arrive. Oh, God. He's saying can you keep that? Can you keep that woman still? And so like I said, What had happened is the epidural had had blocked but she hadn't blocked the nerve she was laying on. So once they moved her the it just it hadn't worked in that particular spot. Oh my god. So I've got this gaping wound. And I've got complete sensation. So my last memory that they got her out and they put her on my chest thinking that that would calm me down and I'm just pushing her off, you know, so she they grabbed her and lost my last memories, then putting the air hose down my throat while I wasn't out and I'm like I was clawing at it trying to get out. Anyway, I woke up in recovery and all was good. Sorry, I had a big reaction to that because I had zerion and I felt that I didn't feel the pain that you feel but I could feel everything and it scared the shit out. I just did not enjoy it horrible. It was either now I'm feeling goosebumps. Sorry. No, I should have warned you. Yeah, no, that's all right. Yeah, that's a horrible story. I'm so sorry. I mean, they ushering all the once they realized it was serious, it was for real. Like she's not pretending like as if you would like it was bullshit. absolute bullshit. Don't listen to a woman and she's brilliant, but it wasn't them that I thought it was bullshit. It was once I got a bit stronger in the years later. I'm like, that was bullshit. Yeah, because you should listen to me the first time and not worry Well, I would it was wasn't April Fool's Day, by the way I wasn't, you know, it wasn't a joke. But I knew, I knew they knew I was serious when they started ushering all the midwives out and like, ya know, everybody out and Tony had to go out so it was, you know, they put me under and, and then I woke up. I woke up and everyone had already handed my baby around. You know, it wasn't it wasn't it was in that time where that stuff wasn't sensitive either. Maybe students stay with you. They went into a little room didn't No, no, no, no, she she she was in the room. But once they got me from recovery and took me back to the room. Yeah, the baby was me. It was already in the room and family were there and they had already passed around. And because I because it took me a long time to understand why I got postnatal depression cuz I didn't get it the first time. Yeah, yeah. But when I look back, I felt robbed. I felt wrong because I had to have a C section. Yes, I had a fantastic vaginal birth the first time so I just assumed that I was gonna be able to do that again. And she was nine pounds one so I thought well, I heaps of fun. Really. I'm gonna get this one out because she was a lot smaller. But you can't plan a breach. I mean, she just wasn't she was a footbridge. So she had one leg straight and one arm up over her head and went down the side. So she was all over the shot. And if one legged come out first, it was going to be a bit of a catastrophe. They said, so anyway. And then following that, like breastfeeding went, Well, I loved breastfeeding. I mean, I know. I know. There's mums that don't like it but loved it, love, love, loved it. That went well. Then when I got discharged from hospital, I got a urinary tract infection and had a reaction to the antibiotics. And I'm talking a urinary tract infection where I was walking around with an ice cream bucket. Because I literally couldn't get to steps without feeling like I had to pee and I was paying blood and it was pretty hard. So once I got the antibiotics, right, that started to clear up but me it was 10 days old and postnatal depression hit like, like a sledgehammer. Like I was in the fetal position in the laundry on the floor. Just asking for my mom, I couldn't don't don't even give me a baby don't even hand it to me because I'm not interested in even looking at looking at her plus, I had a toddler as well. So my husband called my mom and my mum came in and mum said You know, you've got two kids to look after here, you need to pull yourself together. And, and that was the right thing to say in the moment for mum. But it's probably not what I needed to hear. I wanted, I think I wanted mum to say. And again, I don't want them to think that she did anything wrong. But I think I wanted them to say it's going to be okay. It's just going to be okay. So they're not calling the GP to the house. And anyone that knows Dr. Krause Doctor class came, she was whispering. And I'm like, I'm sobbing and she's whispering so to hear her had to stop crying. And she's kneeling at my feet. And she's got her hands on my knees and and she's, you know, tapping me and she's talking me through it. So I end up back in hospital for seven days. And no visitors just just me and the end the baby and family could come look at the girls and had Cassie and Tony could come but no other visitors. And they sent me she was a clinical psychologist but she was specialized in postnatal depression. So, I've got, I've got my A C section, I've got my urinary tract infection. I've got these these boulders on my chest that are just squirting milk everywhere you feel like a piece of shit. And they send me this blonde blonde bombshell. She walks in and she's stunning. She's got she's got the she's got it all going on. And I'm like, What the fuck. So you think you are not going to be able to help me in any way. Anyway, she was the best thing that ever happened. And I use skills that she taught me then as I still use them today. You know, like, reverse to do lists, you know, you're right, you're right you to do list. But you add the things on at the end of the day that you also did so that you feel like you really achieved at the end of the day. She also taught me she taught me to write a to do list with two things on it, get out of bed and feed everybody. That's it. That was all all I had to do when I went home was get out of bed and feed, just feed everyone, nothing else. And that got me through because I realized who they really were the two, the only two things I needed to do and the most important things and yes, she was amazing. I saw her for quite some time after just doing a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and just you know how I was talking to myself and I those things and yeah, she got me back on my feet. Yeah, looks are deceiving. She looked amazing, but she had some great skills. Yeah, I know saying that was just how I felt in the moment. But I remember thinking that I remember thinking what? Yeah, what could you send me everyone the actual opposite to exactly. But as far as being a mum, I just, I just loved it. I just loved it. You know, I didn't like it every day. And it wasn't a reflection on my girls, I loved my girls every day, you know, there were days and plenty of milk downs, but in the, the essence of being a mum, I loved it. And I loved. Yeah, I loved. And I just I tried so hard. I remember being very conscious of how I parented my girls, and tried so hard to get it right. And I didn't always because there's no such thing as a perfect mom, or a perfect human being for that matter. But I did my best. And, you know, the, the, you know, for me the the biggest evidence that I that we as parents got something right, is watching them as adults is, is watching them as functional human beings in the community. And hearing other people that have interacted with them tell you that they're beautiful people, or that they did something for them, just out of the goodness of their heart and how amazing that was. And I don't know what to tell the girls when I hear that. Yeah, but I quite often do. And it just, you know, tear up my mom and I have a stray dog syndrome, we call it where we take in people. And we rescue people. Yes. And my mum, like we never knew who was going to be at our Christmas table because Mum and Dad did Meals on Wheels. And they often picked up a stray along the way and we'd love them all. But that's mum and dad were like that. And I think, you know, I was a bore witness to that through my life. Yeah. And I was rescued the animals as a kid, I bought the bird home that had been, you know, clawed by a cat or, you know, whatever. I bought lots of things home that had to go back. Because we couldn't keep more than something you can't walk past something and not do something and not who wants to do that with worms. Yeah, you're in the wrong spot could go back into nails. I know this, you're gonna get eaten up eventually. Because that's the cycle of life. But I feel like you gotta give them a crack. Yeah, you gotta give me exactly what I think you should have seen me and my gardening business. You know you if it was an early morning, mow all the snails. Pick them all up all of them. Yeah. And I had one customer saw me doing one day and she actually she actually told me off, she said, So you're putting them all back. And I'm gonna put snail bait over there. So we you do what you need to do when I'm gone. But I can't run them with my lawnmower. I'm sorry. And I would spend ages because sometimes there's 3040 Snails going across the lawn at seven o'clock in the morning. Now Leah would have to pick them all up in the bucket and put them all over there. That's just me. But that's it was it's yeah, it's not. For me. It's not what my girls have achieved in their work life or, you know, they've all done amazing things. It's who they are as people who they are as human beings and and now that I've watched them parent and they all parent, I've got two that have human babies and one that has had beautiful cat babies. And that all she parents, those cat babies, just like they were here human babies. And they're just they just have beautiful hearts. And um, that's what I'm proudest of. Yeah, I think Well, we did something right to make them to give them that start. They can choose to do whatever they want to do with that, but they've certainly gone on and you know, continued on with that, which makes me happy. Yeah. I love that. That is wonderful. There's one point about it that blindsided me when I became a grandparent for the first time. Yeah. And I realized, probably just to say it now. Yeah. So when my first grandchild was born, all my mum friends that had already become grandparents had sent you just wait, you just wait. You're not going to believe how amazing it is. And I knew it would be amazing. But nothing prepared me for not only how amazing it was, but the emotion had bought up. For the end of an era for me. Yeah, right. And I never ever thought about it. Someone should write a book. Maybe Maybe I'll write a book. But when when she came home from the hospital, and they, they, because COVID hit pretty soon after. So once we got through that, and I was able to then go to the house and be a part of it. I couldn't stay. Because it because it wasn't my it wasn't my turn. It wasn't my baby. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was heart wrenching. And I don't know if that makes sense. But it was I knew I knew. I mean, it wasn't delusional. I knew she wasn't my baby. Right? Yeah. But the last time I'd been hands on with a baby, they were my babies. And I got to witness the whole journey. And all I wanted to do was witness the whole journey. But when the realization came that I had to go home, and I couldn't witness the whole journey. It broke my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Because I wanted to watch. I wanted to watch my daughter, parent. Her daughter. Yeah. And I couldn't I couldn't watch it all. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So I found that really hard. Once I got once I once I realized, and I, and I sort of went through my own emotions. Yeah. It was fine. Yeah, he right. No, didn't expect it out that day. No, it's not. It's all this excitement and happiness. And but it literally is an it is a defined end of, you know, one year at the start of another year, and all the the emotions and they're involved in that transition. Yeah. Because if you can picture to, like, I've got my two hands up facing each other, if you can picture. This was this is my daughter, and this is me. And we're facing each other. Yeah. When when your children have their own children, they turn, they turn around, and they face a different direction. Yeah. And she's still they still turn back. And they're still. I mean, we're, we're very close. We're all very close, I get a lot of phone calls, and I get a lot of sharing and all the things I don't miss a thing. But it's different. It's it's like, okay, well, it's a definite, it's a it's a transition. It goes from, what it's just you, it's just the mother and the daughter. I think maybe it's particularly with mothers and daughters, I would imagine, to, it's now it's now well, you're there, and they'll they'll come to you when they need you. But But you literally have to just stand in the background. And you only get to be a part of what you're allowed to be a part of. Yeah, that makes sense. And like it was a very generous, I'm not making it sound like, you know, they're very inclusive and share so much. I mean, FaceTime, I get FaceTime. And I get all the things and it's amazing. But you really you only get to be a part of what that will enable you to be a part of or what time allows you to be a part of because you're not hands on all the time. That was a really big. Yeah, they were big realizations and very emotive for me. I'm and I'm a very feeling person. I feel deeply. And that was not something I expected to feel at all. Yeah, that's that's a really good point. Yeah, that's a really good point. And you want to be there? Oh, yeah. Like you light up? No, it's not. And I don't mean to tell them what to do. Because they're doing amazing. But just to be just to be there. Again, part of the party for finding your identity again. Yes. Well, now, I have to learn what a grandmother is because I've never been a grandmother. So I have to learn what that means and how I navigate that to how it works for me, but most of all, how it works for them. Yeah, it's always things you don't think I was like, I'm thinking of that. Oh, great. I'm not making it sound like life is a series of lessons. Yeah. And he's always evolving and changing in your learning all the time. You know, you think you think puberty, childbirth, menopause, you think maybe there's just the three men let me tell you, I've, there's there's been a million of those and you just think, okay, are we there yet? Please, I don't need any more details with this one. I know I could be I could. You know, I admire some people for their care and easy, free and easy attitude and they can just You just move on. I'm not that person. Because I feel I just feel everything exactly. And I have what I have to feel it. And I have to go through the whole process to understand it. And if I can't understand it, then I struggle. But once I can understand it and and you journal about it or read a book about it, then I can. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good to go. Do you mind if we talk about the shared experience we had with decluttering? No, not at all. Yeah, it's interesting. As I over the long weekend, no joke would have been 15. Garbage bags full of clothes. Plus, for more, just probably 20 to five more now that I've given to my mom and my sister. And the emotional experience of going through those clothes. I just thought my husband laughed at me because I every now and then I have to break and I was in tears. He's like, What are you doing? I'm like, that this was the when I had the baby. This is what I was, you know, all these boots. Huge, much stuff. And I can't believe the amount of stuff I had stickerless the amount of stuff I had. But yeah, would you mind sharing the experience you had doing that? So I've got a massive wardrobe, but I had a lot in it. And I'm not a hoarder. But I hold on to things that mean something to me or for whatever reason. Anyway, my oldest daughter, Cassie Blissett. And Hart said, when I come home on the long weekend, why would you want me to help you clean out your wardrobe? I said, Sure. Let's do that. And I'm pretty sure Mia was going to be a part of it too. But she had to fly back a day earlier. So she was had already gone home. But as it got closer, I was backpedaling. And I was saying to her, ah, look, honestly, I'll be good. I'll just do it when you're gone. Because I think we're going to run out of time. It's you know, like, want to spend more time with Ali and you know, all the things. She said, I'm not going to make you but I'm happy to do I really love doing that. Anyway, we all end up going to bed. That's her little boy who end up going to bed and we thought oh, now's a good time. So we she said look, let's just take everything out and we'll throw it on the bed. So we took it all out put on the bench. He said you just pick up each item and I'm not going to pressure you just do whatever you want it well some things were an absolute that's got to go that's got to go and I had no problem with those. And then there was a so we had it that's got to go pile. We had a might try that on and just see pile. And then we had a definite that's not because I really love that. So the definitely not going things. Cassie was color coding. And because that's her. She was colored. She she she was a bit visual merchandiser for JJs for many years. So she's got it. I think she was color coding all my clothes as they were going back in the wardrobe. We did we got that all done. And it was some of them. I was holding up and she's shaking her head before I even made her mind up. She's going No. So I took her lead and got rid of it. So then we've got we've got that done. And she she pulled the door closed and the walking robe and I had all my dressing and hang up. And she said, for God's sake, how many dressing gowns does one person need? And I said, Well, that one's my winter one because I like that color. And that one's my winter one because that one collects cat here. Well, now that the cats are outside and don't come inside anymore, I can wear that one. And this is my summer one that short is my summer one that's long. And this one's one that Georgia brought me back from Thailand. And this one's one that you guys bought me for Mother's Day and I can't bear to part with it. She said what about and she said okay, so pick your favorite long one and pick your favorite short one. And I said, like took me ages. I just couldn't. I ended up narrowing it down. And we did that. And she said, What about this skanky? Oh, green thing here. And it's not it's it's just a short telling dressing gown that I absolutely love. And she said, I think I gave this to you. Like years ago. She said, I think we were still I think your dad was still together when I had this. And I said, Yeah, that's right. And I couldn't I could feel the emotion coming up. Yeah. And she said, Well, you don't you'd can't possibly need that now. And she was she didn't realize that I was getting emotional about it. She said you can't possibly need that. Now you got all these other ones that are much nicer. She said, Oh, that's nice, but it's not that nice. And I said I just like to keep it because it means something to me. It's sentimental. And she said I don't I don't understand. Or I just burst into tears because I don't think I understood it myself. And I said to her I think I think it's one of the last connections to our family life. I said because I remember you wearing it when we used to sit in the lounge around Fire. We were watching TV all together, the five of us together. And she said, are really, ma'am. And I said, Yeah. And I said, and you know, I said, I know it's a funny thing to say, but sometimes I put it on. If I'm feeling really flat, I'll wear it. Yeah. And it makes me think of a view. And, you know, it's not like I miss my sight. Like, I want my husband back, saying that it's the vehicle. It's the unit. It's the family unit. And they weren't all bad times. There were some really good times in there. And we wouldn't have been together for 22 years. I said, sometimes I put it on when she said on. And she said, I wished you just said that I wouldn't have pressured you. And I said, Well, you didn't really pressure me, I said, but I would like to keep that one. So then she just lovingly picked it up, and she just hold it back on the, on the coconuts, and I've kept it and you know, probably I may not ever wear it, you know, but I like to, I like to have it because that's what it means. But yeah. How, like how emotion fueled, is addressing again, like, it's crazy. And I didn't realize until it looked like it was gonna go. Yeah. And it's the one warning item that I kept. It's the only thing I kept that that made me really emotional. I got rid of so many. I mean, I don't know how many garbage bags you said, but I think I had eight. I got it all went to the shop. And yeah, and I was I was happy to see them go. Just an add on to that. My beautiful partner. He's He's so hands on when it comes to helping with things. And the next day, I went back into finish off things in there. And I had all the bags all lined up. And he said are how much have you got left to go? And I said, I've just got a couple of things to finish. And I'd really like to take them all together when I'm finished. And he said, Well, how about I just laid all these in the car and take them. And then when you finish the others tomorrow, you can take them and I said Ah, but I really I really am selective about where I want them to go. Because I know where I know which up shop I want them to go to and everything. And he said, Oh, that's right, I can do that. I'll just do that. And I said, ah might just wait till tomorrow. And then when I'm finished and I was trying not to make a big deal. But I will say could see he just wanted to help. And I'm thinking oh, he just wants to help. So I said, Okay, all right. Well, you do that. I think I was a bit huffy. When I said it. I said to you just you just take them then. So he loaded them all in the car. And when he got them all in the car, I thought, I've got one last reason why maybe he'll just bring them all back. So when at the end, I said, I just want to take a photo of them all together. So I could send them to Cass and show her how I ended up. And he said we'll take a photo of him in the car. So I looked at the car, and I said it's not quite the same. And so I just came back inside. So he drove off. And I watched him. Like I watched him drove off and I sat there sobbing on the bed. Because I wanted to do it. It was it was closure for me to do it. And I wasn't going to take anything out and keep anything but it was just closure for me. When he came back. He could see I'd been crying. And he said, what's wrong? And I said, I didn't want you to do that. I wanted to do it myself. And he went anyway, sadly, we had a bit of an argument about it. Because he said you should have made it clear. And I said Well, I'm not going to spell it out like you're five. I said I didn't want you to take him and there was a reason. And he was heartbroken. He had he got really emotional too. He said I wouldn't hurt you for the world. And I said, I know that. And I know you didn't do it to hurt me. And maybe I should have really explained myself. But I said I feel like that's been ripped away from me. And I haven't had a chance to close it. But I got over it the next day, but it was so yeah, so powerful. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I can really I can understand that. Because it's like that last, it's that last act of letting it go. You know, I did that when I put my stuff in the in the funny bin thing. And as I was driving away, I was just bawling. It's like I I wanted this stuff to go. So it's not like oh, yeah, I get that. It's just that. I know that part of my life is truly gone. Yeah, that was exactly what it was. Yeah. Because I had I had other things in there too, like, like yourself that, that I can tell you when I bought them and where I was and all the things and they had meaning. And that's why I wanted to select where they went. I wanted to see where they went. Yeah. And I wanted to be responsible for where they went, Jeremy I wanted it to be me that did it. And and even though he came back and said exactly where he took them and I believe that he did you know I'm not saying that. I just wanted to do what like you did drive away and if I needed a tear I needed a tear and I probably want to do it by myself. Yes. Oh, yeah, I did. My mom was here. Yeah, it's yes. Yeah. And yeah, it was like some of the stuff. I laughed. I thought why if I still got these and then I'd be going oh, I know what I still got this because you know, it reminds me of this. This particular time in my life or whatever. And some things I was so happy to let go of Yeah, I didn't even think twice like you know how you say when you picked it up my daughter said that being before it sort of lifted. I was like oh what am I stupid that for whatever but then other things. Some things are just definite. There's no and even the keepers some things would definitely always keep it even if she said no. Now we say well, I love it. I actually love this and I love wearing it. I feel good when I wear it. So I'm keeping it. I kept stuff that I'll never wear again, but the sentimental value years sentimental like that. Like you're not I don't. I don't my husband would say I'm a hoarder, but I don't think I'm a hoarder. But I think important to me. Yeah. So I've got these jumper jumper that my Nana wore, than I used to wear when I was a kid. So I've kept that I've got a little drawer now we're off. Yeah, I've cleaned out keepsakes. I don't want to pay. Yeah. And yeah, so many things I gave to my mom and my sister because I didn't want to part with. I'd like to still see them in my life. Yeah, so you know where they are. Lovely. But no pressure. I say no pressure. If you don't like it, you know, obviously, but I don't see I can live with that. Yeah, I can give it to someone and say, Look, I'd like you to have it. And if you feel like getting rid of it, just get rid of it. Yeah. Because once I've left it, they're not it's out of control, then yeah, you just want what happens? Yeah. You know, I'm gonna sign him. You have to keep that? Yeah, no, no, no. And I say that to my girls, like I've got, you know, I've got a couple of big tubs of things of my mum and dads that are from their grandpa from my grandparents or from their parents that are out there all wrapped up in some, you know, probably probably some valuable things maybe. But I've shown my girls where they are and what they are. And I've explained what they are. And I said to them, I'm keeping them because it means something to me. Obviously, when I'm gone, I won't know but do not have an ounce of guilt. If you need to take the whole box to the shop. Because they might not mean anything to you. It's another generation or Yes, so don't seem cool. I just don't want them to be saddled with that guilt that that people feel when Sr. But someone gave that to me back in 1927. And I don't want to part with it. It probably doesn't mean anything to them. You know, she found that that reminds me of when grandpa passed away when we're going through his stuff. And you'd find things What the hell is he kept this for? Now? It's obviously very good reasoning. He was more of a hoarder. My Dad Yeah, my dad's got. Yeah, but you know, there's a reason for Yeah, no, yeah. And I sort of felt a little bit like, I should keep this because he was important to him. But then the end of the day, I thought I can't keep everything. There's just so much stuff here. And as it was I took boxes of stuff that I hadn't even done anything with. They're just sitting there because I just couldn't bear to let them go. Yeah, but you know, over time, that might change. You know, it's only been coming up 12 knots. I think, I think from what I saw of Rob's situation when his mom passed away and we we cleaned her house he bought we bought a heap of stuff here and a lot of we had a garage sale or we gave it away or whatever. But there's some stuff that we kept in the shed. Yeah, and bit by bit some of its gone. Yeah, over time. But it's time and I've said that to rob my my parents, there'll be things that I said prepare to clear out half the shed to make room for it when I have to do it for my parents. And I said and over time, I'll whittle it down. But in the moment I'll it'll be a part of them and I'll have to hang on to it. I just won't be able to part with it. So you just have to bear with that. I think that's a it's a process that is part of the morning. I think it is part of the grieving it's it happens stage by stage as you go through. Yeah, absolutely. So what's worse, I'll put all the links to all your socials but we're what's Where do you Where are you most active is like Instagram or Facebook. Where do you like people to get in touch with? I loves Instagram Stories. I've had to cut down my Instagram stories because I think I love your story when you're going from Yeah, but I think I put too many. I think I put too many slides. I'm like I've I do whatever you lost, share them like I'm doing it. But yeah, but people's eyes glaze over. I'm sure that I can probably swipe past most of those, you know, it's who I am. That's the thing. Yeah. Do you do what you like, and then everyone else can sort themselves out I love I love Instagram stories because I feel like I'm a loves telling stories. So I like I like that part of it. I mean, I'm I'm on Facebook and Instagram. So that's pretty much pretty much all I'd like to blog again. But yeah, I don't know. I'd like to blog about so many things. And I've come back to Facebook several times and told everyone Hey, because because I might sometimes I'll write something that's nothing to do with food. It's a life thing because I'm deep in and I like all that sort of stuff. And people love it. Yeah, like, like the response I get from people. I get it. I'll get private messages from all of them. And then I'll come back straight after and Okay. Ah, seems like people really liked that. I'm going to do more of it now like i and publicly announced I'm doing it, then I don't do it. Because then again, I get that whole. Well, really who wants to hear about my grandparenting journey? And how I feel about that? Probably no one, but I think I can see, but I can see who my audience are like that three and a half 1000 people, but I can see how many of them are my age demographic. Yeah. And probably at a similar life stage. And even if they're not, what's going to happen to them do see, it's probably worth talking about. So I often think of doing that. And I think maybe we'll have a separate blog, and I think I want to just do it there. Yeah. If people don't want to, they can scroll by Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Don't read it. If you don't, if it's not your thing, don't read it. Then I feel bad because I've got men in there. And I think I'm always going to speak about women's things. But I'm a woman. yet. I don't know how to talk from a man's perspective. They can start their own blog if they wish I you know, this whole thing with social media. It's like you can think too much about Yeah, I think just do what yeah, maybe I should stop overthinking at you. Yeah, sorry. I'm pointing and everyone else like complete themselves. Yes, what I probably say, because sometimes I feel like sometimes a topic comes into my head, like, like talking about the grandparent thing. And I think I'm gonna write so much about that. Yeah. And, and like a couple of things. I said that you see, you hadn't thought of Yes. Because you haven't had that experience yet. I guess I also don't want. I don't want to get on there and tell a story like that. And people think, Oh, is it does it seem like a wind but anything my stuff sounds like a winch. No, doesn't sound like I like I like to just sharing it a deep feeling or a thought, you know, I really, I really enjoy that. That's how I connect with people. And I think it gives people other people permission to share the same vulnerabilities that I share. I'm very, I'm very, very for that. I think that we don't talk enough about stuff. When it comes to mental health issues. I am all about that, like just got to talk about, because the more we talk about it, the more we talk about it, and it just grows on itself. You know, it becomes not a stigma thing that we're all too scared to mention. It's part of life, and more people would have it than wouldn't mass. You know, it's just gonna say that. Yeah. And I don't anyone that mocks anyone with any kind of mental health issue, mild, severe or otherwise needs to have a look at themselves because it's debilitating. And as I said, people, like, out there, I'm one of the most bubbly, you know, like, that's the thing. It's easy. And I'm not putting that on. I'm like that when I get comfortable. Yeah. But I'm, if anyone's seen the not so great side of me as in, you know, they've, I've not been my best self and my best behavior are probably don't feel comfortable with them. Because when I because when I truly feel comfortable with someone, I'm the most loving, giving, thoughtful, deep, sharing person you could ever meet. But I have to feel comfortable. Yeah. And if if I've got my guard up, I can't be myself. I can't give the best of myself. So it isn't it. And it's sad that I can't do that. But I can't pretend either. I'm very transparent. So I can understand so what's, what's in the future for jazz? Frank? What's here? Oh, if I could claim me. I mean, I'm a grandparent. Now. I think, man, just Frank will, it will be there as long as you know, I can. As my body will stand there and do that as long as people wanting my, my goodies. I'll keep doing it. Because I really, I really love it. And just a little side note to that, I think. I think my business also grew from the perspective that it's we're not empty nested. My just Frank family became the people because that's how I show my love. So I show I love people, I cook for them. If I care about you, you can be sure you're gonna get some food because that's how I look I just add even and it's probably why I want it to be my two hands because anyone that buys my food, you can be guaranteed I love what I do. And I'm usually listening to something amazing while I'm doing it might be a Formula One podcast because I'm a massive fan. Oh my god. Oh, All right, folks, let's not get started that was talking about David Ricardo said the whole thing said I just My heart breaks for him and I and he's such a such a. He's such a beautiful character on on track like he's in the paddock. He's just so loved there. I can't believe that haven't given him a seat. I can't believe it. Just yeah. But anyway, that's another podcast. I'll be talking to you later about that. Next week after the Japan Grand Prix. We'll have a chat about that. Yeah, yeah. So I wouldn't do that. You know, what, you're, it's you it's literally us. It is, and, and my family. My my girls were grown on home cooking. And that's that was part of when I started the business. I just wanted to, like I wanted to keep cooking for other people. I couldn't. I literally stopped cooking when I have done nested because when I was looking when when there were no children around, it was hard to cook for one. Yeah. So I just cooked something random for myself. But I stopped baking, I stopped making all these beautiful things that my kids used to have, of course, then the girls went through there were watching our Wait, man, we can only have two biscuits, not the whole jar, you know, whereas back then they gobble them up, not have to make some more. But yeah, that's, I mean, so anyone, anyone listening that buys my food for my family. That's, that's why I do it is I love it. I love it. And I'm meant to, someone told me once it was actually Maurice Dickens from I said to He wants us I can't keep up with like the range of stuff that I've got. And he said, narrow it down to your pick your top five, and narrow it down to that. Now also anyone that's listening that sees how many products I have out there, I think I think there's about 35 different things that I make and counting. Because Because Tony, Tony Verona so so she would message me say we're the shelves that their mother hubbard shows up there, we need some more goodies. She doesn't she doesn't order, it doesn't tell me what she wants. So I just go, right, had this idea. I reckon that fudge that they would be great dipped in chocolate with more chocolate drizzled with grated chocolate on the top. So then I'll just come up with the 35 goes to 36. So I've got and of course, I have to put all these in the computer for my invoicing system. So I can see how many there are. So I just keep using my imagination and making new things. So on that all the recipes are your own, that you tweak or people come up with. Yeah, you asked Rob, they're just things that I come up with come in there. And he'll say, so what are we making today? And I'm not sure yet. Not quite sure yet. And most of them aren't written down, which I've just started to document them. Sorry, for because what it is, it is pretty funny. If you're not, maybe you're going to sell your business one day. But one day if I'm going to sell the business, and I and and someone says okay, so what are you selling up sell what's all in here? It's all in my head. They can't sell that. And besides that, I mean, if I don't sell the business, and my girls want to do something with it, I'm going to give it to them. And they might decide to do something with it. And I need to have them written down. So I've just started to do that. So yeah, so if you buy something, and I mean, actually, having said that there are the things that I package are written down. But like these things aren't written down. So if you do happen to buy the rocky road, and it tastes different one day than the next Can I tell you a funny story. I just sent the Biscoff rocky road to Adelaide. And when I was cutting it up ready to box it I realized I hadn't put the almonds in. Ah, so I rang. I message him and I said I've boxed it all up and it's on its way but just be prepared. There's no harm in doing this. I think it's because everyone was home and I had had my kitchen door shut and I was working in there but I could hear everything going on. I'm like I just want to get this done because I want to get back to being with the family. There's no elements in that one. There's extra biscuits because when I was mixing I thought I don't know what's going on. He doesn't seem like there's enough. So I had an extra biscuit. So it's really crunchy but just not with almonds. Sorry about that Adelaide. So yeah, so I'm not sure what's next. Um, I'm just doing what I'm doing. Loving doing what I'm doing and while people are still wanting me to do it, I'll keep doing it. That's awesome. Would it be fair to say, I'm just taking the liberty here? There's anyone that's listening that's interested in veganism or vegan lifestyle. Would you be happy to chat? 2%? And as I said, very, I'm very, you know, fluid with all of that I, everyone's got to start somewhere. I mean, I didn't go vegan overnight. Yeah, it wasn't a cold turkey thing. So I get the transition. And I can certainly give people plenty of tips on how to add, just add a few meals or I mean, there's no end of recipes out there. Yeah, I mean, you've just got a Google vegan curry, vegan anything. And you'll find some recipes. But yeah, I'm more than happy. And if anyone wants to talk about the ethical side of it. I'm pretty passionate about that topic. Yeah, I just don't. I just don't go there a lot. Because not everyone wants to hear that. Yeah. But if someone wants to, you will share 100% Yeah, absolutely. I'm always open to that inbox me, you know, my phone numbers on all my products on the label. So call me message me whatever. I need say, Yeah, of course, I'm always and I've done a fair bit of that over the years, I've done a, you know, talk to a lot of people about that kind of thing. I mean, I've, I've wanted to get back to doing another talk at the library at some time. It's something like that would be fun. Not necessarily about that, but maybe a cooking, you know, like a cooking demonstration where we can just casually chat at the same time. You know, I know the library's open to that. So that's if that's something that's interesting to people and they'd like to do that. Perhaps give me a yell or comment on your on the podcast post or whatever. And yeah, we can organize that too. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I've really loved it. love chatting with you. And thank you for your honesty and your openness and your vulnerability. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much to thank you for your goodies which have made a hole in we can take the rest time if you're lucky you have your everyday thanks, Alison. Thank you

Ellie D Australian music publicist S2 Ep43 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Ellie D, is a music publicist currently in Bundaberg, QLD, originally from Adelaide SA and a mum of 3 children under 2. She is hugely passionate about the Australian music scene. Through her podcast, her internet radio station and her YouTube series, Ellie's pure focus is highlighting undiscovered Australian music artists. Ellie spent many years in human resources and promotion, but her passion was in the music industry. In high school Ellie's year 12 project was on Community Radio, in University she was hosting 5RTI's Italian programme. It was when Ellis was hosting Southern FM's Monday Breakfast that she realised there were so many Australian artists who were going under the radar, so used her show to promote and highlight them . Ellie brought her skills from her previous jobs to begin working as a manager and promotor for Aussie artists, which saw her attend the ARIA awards. Early 2018 when she left Melbourne she was touted as the next Molly Meldrum. When her family moved to Bundaberg, as a 36 year old she was basically retired, as the music industry was so different. During 2020 when her son was 4 months old she was reinvigorated to do something for herself, and started her YouTube and podcast series and on 1st March 2021 Ellie began her radio station. Often a thankless job, that does not stop her. Her passion for the Australian music industry is that strong. Ellie also discusses her 15 year infertility battle, IVF journey, complications with her twin pregnancy requiring surgery and going onto 81 days bed rest after her waters broke at 20.5 weeks and having her twins in the NICU for 5.5. weeks. This episode contains discussion around foetal medical procedures, premature birth and complications, twin to twin transfusion syndrome Watch Ellie's family's appearance on ABC's Catalyst here Connect with Ellie instagram / website / OzNow Radio / YouTube / Podcast Connect with the Podcast instagram / website Music used in this episode from your host Alison Newman and producer LT Balkin used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest this week is led Ellie is a music publicist currently living in Bundaberg Queensland, originally from Adelaide in South Australia. And Ellie is a mom of three children under two, including twin girls. Ellie is hugely passionate about the Australian music scene. Through her podcast, her internet radio station and her YouTube series. Ellie's pure focus is highlighting undiscovered Australian music artists. Ellie spent many years in human resources and promotion, but her passion was in the music industry. In high school, LSU 12 project was on community radio. In university she was hosting five RTI as Italian program. It was when Ellie was hosting southern FM's Monday breakfast that she really realized there were so many Australian artists who were going under the radar. So she used her show to promote and highlight them. Ellie bought her skills from her previous jobs to begin working as a manager and promoter for Ozzy artists, which saw her attend the ARIA awards in early 2018. When she left Melbourne she was touted as the next Molly Meldrum. When her family moved to Bundaberg as a 36 year old she was basically retired as a music industry was so different. During 2020 When her son was four months old, she was reinvigorated to do something for herself and started her YouTube podcast series and on the first of March 2021, Ellie began her radio station, often a thankless job that does not stop her. Her passion for the Australian music industry. Is that strong. Today Ellie also discusses her 15 year infertility journey. IVF experience complications with her twin pregnancy, requiring surgery and going on to 81 day is bedrest after her waters broke at 20 weeks, and having her twins in the NICU for five and a half weeks. This episode contains discussion around fetal medical procedures, premature birth and complications and twin to twin transfusion syndrome. Music On today's episode is courtesy of myself, Alison Newman. See your face. I see everywhere. Thanks so much for coming on today, Ellie. It's such a pleasure to meet you and welcome you to the podcast. Alison, thank you for having me. I've been so excited to have this chat with you. And I'm an avid listener to your podcast. So it's really cool to be someone that's a guest now. I love that. Thanks for that. I appreciate it. It's always lovely to meet people that have been listening and then get to come on to be excited. I love your podcast. I've been listening, working my way through the episodes and every episode has something new for me to think about. Yeah, wonderful. I'm so pleased. That's just I love hearing that. That's like because I'm like I learned so much. I'm just learning so much about how to approach my own mothering and like how to change my mindset. And it's just been wonderful for me like, you know, yeah, it does. It does really, I feel like it gives you a fresh perspective because there's no one way to parent is that yeah, that's so true. And it's it's like yeah, you can you can it's like when you're first having children and people give you all this advice. You just take the little bits that that might resonate with you and I feel like this is the same thing if you pick up something that's wonderful. So tell us about what you're up to, you're very into music and creating, from that point of view, can you tell us what you actually do? Sure can. So I'm a full time stay at home mom, with three kids age two and under. And I am crazy about the Australian music scene. So I have a podcast, a YouTube series, and also an internet radio station. And my pure focus is to uplift, empower and shine a light on undiscovered Australian music artists. So I understand where you sit also in that community. Essentially, my passion is to focus on artists that are in development, to see that they get to that ultimate goal, which is to be known and heard, and followed by the Australian public in a broader sense. Hmm, that is so cool. Good on you for doing that. So it's honestly just, it's a passion. It's like a personal sort of personal passion that you've just decided, that's what you're gonna do. Yep, yeah, the three passion projects, I call them the LED trilogy, even though I'm not a Star Wars fan, but my own creative take on it. And I guess, you know, there's a story that led to me doing this. And, you know, circumstances have led to me bleeding, these Passion Projects carrying the cost. Without any expectation, I don't get any income. I don't make any revenue from this. It really is something that fills my cup. But also, the changes and the positive difference I see being created in the lives of others that are, you know, again, putting everything they have into their craft. That for me is it's incredible to watch to see that transformation. Yeah. So it's really a very rewarding experience for you to be a part of. It really is you can't put a price on the growth that I've seen in those that I'm supporting. Yeah, I put on Yeah, that is so good. The field, it's exciting. I've certainly, you'd be the first person that I've had on the podcast that's in this field in this area. Can you share with us? You said there's a bit of a story, a bit of background how you got to this point? Can you tell us a bit about that? Sure. And I'll try to keep it don't keep it short. Do what it say what you like. So you're ever in South Australia, right? Me? Sure I am. Yeah, in that game. So I grew up in Adelaide and I went to Adelaide Uni did a Bachelor of Social science, psychology. Because when I was 16, I lost one of my best friends. And I thought if I did psych, then I could save everyone. A very beautiful sentiment but very naive for someone who's 16. So I did uni and I fell into a job as a recruiter. By going to a family friend of a friend's barbecue, you know, that's, that was Adelaide at the time. Yeah. And after spending 10 years in HR, recruitment, employment and training, I got sick of working for other people. I found I hit the glass ceiling really fast. I'd move into a job and you know, in big bucks, and then I'd be like, well, this job's boring. I can do it with my eyes closed. So I just kept taking on more and more, and I never felt fulfilled in what I was doing. So around the time, it was actually the week that I turned 30. That's when my husband said, Look, I'm gonna start my PhD. If you want to go ahead and start a business, now's the time for you to do that. Yeah. So I quit. And the week after I was headhunted started in a contract. And, you know, the rest is kind of history until we moved from Adelaide to Melbourne in 2016. I had at that point, my HR consultancy was going great lands to the point where I had contractors working for me and, you know, I admittedly didn't have to work every day of the week or every day of the month. So I wanted to go back to my grass roots, which was community radio. Yeah, right. You need 12 Community Radio was my English project project. At University. I was contributing every Saturday afternoon to five, RTI, which was the Italian program in Adelaide. And I do four hours there on the panel as a youth program all in Italian you And I started volunteering at Southern southern FM in Brighton very quickly, the program director there, said, Let's get your doing Monday breakfast. And it was then that I realized, and I'm, I'd love to have a chat with you about this too. But, you know, there was so many press releases coming through, we've got em wraps Eret music coming directly to us. And I just felt so overwhelmed because community radios guideline is to play only 25% of Australian music. And I understand how that works. Because in a community station, you've got all different types of demographics and groups in the community that you know, you do need to really capture the whole community. So there could be ethnic programs, sporting, etc. I get that, but I couldn't understand how there was so many of the other sorts of just been missed. Yeah, so I started inviting artists to come in, like Mel cure, I remember they were one of my first invitations. Come into the studio, let's have a chat. So I do six to eight by myself, and then eight or nine, they come in with their instruments, we'd have a bit of a chat. That's a few songs. But at the end of these chats the artists assigned to me, Ellie, you've been, you know, okay, we didn't HR and you've been in marketing, but you've also been a career coach of every industry. So why don't you now coach us because you're very interested in radio and you're very interested in music. And I didn't quite understand what they were getting that and to be honest. Very quickly, you know, now I look back and I think how ridiculous I was giving other people the belief the empowerment that they could use their transferable skills in other industries. While I didn't think that for myself, I don't know. I very quickly started managing artists doing venerable canes, artist bookings, going to the ARIA awards. So really, all of a sudden, I kind of threw myself into this experience, which was flying the flag for Ozzy musicians. And by the time we came to leave Melbourne, early 2018, I'd gone to an art exhibition. And there I was introduced as the next Molly Meldrum. And that floored me because, yeah, someone obviously is recognizing because there was a lot that I was doing then too, that I was not paid for. The real reward for me, as I guess you could say, as a career coach, is to see someone go from I'm not really sure I'm self doubting myself that imposter syndrome, too. I am so confident myself. You know, at that time, we didn't have the pandemic I've got I've got a full calendar of bookings. And you know, people buy my merch. People are my following online is starting to grow. Yeah, when we moved to Bundaberg, I brought both my LED brand and my HR brand with me. And unfortunately, the Internet didn't work here like it did in Melbourne. So, you know, we moved here I was 37. And effectively, I have retired. Yeah, and the music scene here admittedly is very different to what I was experiencing in Melbourne. But 2020 came, and I found a notebook, which I had written in 2016. And that notebook had the blueprint for these three products. So my son was four months at the time, and I said to hobby, I gotta be honest with you. I love being a mom, but it's not enough for me. I need something else. My insanity, I miss helping other people. I missed the creative connection. So I started podcasting. And I started that podcast holding Dominic in my arms and recording while I was in his nursery rocking chair. And that, you know, now this year, I'm into producing season four. So that continued all the way through the YouTube series, I kicked off at the same time. That effectively is a video interview with a different group of artists about the real truths of what happens behind the music. That's why I've caught it behind the music with a lady. And then the radio station only came about the first of March 2021. Yeah, right. We're in a year new there. But I guess, you know, I did go down the path of Could I get a job in radio? I've got a lot of experience. But I'll be honest with you, and I'd say to the faces of the people here in this beautiful town. I've been met with very big fears of intimidation, that I'm gonna go in there and I don't know, put them out of a job. Yeah. I did volunteer here at the local community Station. And, and this was really the push for me to create my own station. I volunteered, I went from doing one, shift five, they wanted me to do drive shifts, you know, the Italian hour, I then had an Ozzie shift as well. I was invited to be on the board, I was doing their Facebook, like all the creative stuff. And then so someone from the post war era generation decided I was doing too much. And so we ended up with the CB double aid community broadcasting association of Australia's mediation team. And it turns out that the perpetrators did not want to have further discussions. So that's when the CB wa encouraged me to start my own station. Yeah, right. So that's sort of the the long and the short of it. You know, I have these skills. For me. Now, as a four year old, I think it's really sad, if I'm just going to sit here and let those skills not be used. I can give back to someone and make a difference. Well, that's, that's what I now. That's why I exist I suppose. It's such a cool story. It's like, You're doing this because you love it. And because of the passion that you have, and the reward you get from it. And it's just so admirable. I just love that. If I had a bad alcohol here, I'd say the reward is not a financial reward. Because as I said, I don't earn anything. I'll be honest with you, I did the count this morning. We have 133 featured artists. Over the first 12 months, we've had 3000 unique listens, which that tells me that's 3000 People who had not previously heard the artists, because I do get feedback. I get feedback from the listener, you know, where can I buy the merch? Or how do I buy the song? And I then point them to that artists website or Spotify or Spotify? It's not a word, isn't it? But you know, music wherever, wherever they can buy the music, I should say. But the reward, you know, in a verbal sense, I do get some thank you messages from the artists themselves. But admittedly, you know, that doesn't come through all the time, either. Sometimes I feel like I'm the Mrs. Christmas, you know, because if you think of like, Santa, Santa does all these wonderful things on Christmas Eve delivers all these presents to boys and girls, and never gets a thank you. And that's I've got a couple of colleagues that we all do the same kind of thing. And it gets to Christmas time when we say to each other. What do you really get many thank yous to see, do we? But it doesn't stop us. Yes, we know that that you know, the impact is most of the time, not something you can measure. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Good on. Yeah. Sorry, I keep saying that. I don't want to sound patronizing. But I think like, here's the thing, like community radio, is amazing, like, from my other thing that I do apart from the podcast you're aware of, but but some of the listeners might not be that I I'm a singer and songwriter, and I release music myself, mostly recorded in this room, pay people to play instruments for me, and, and if it wasn't for community radio, my music would not get heard, basically. I mean, it's on all the streaming platforms, but people generally just find that by accident, they're not going to go in there and search for me, because no one knows who I am. Yeah, and obviously, my music doesn't come under the banner of commercial radio. That's a whole a whole different industry all of its own. So if it wasn't for community radio, I wouldn't have an audience. So I'm so grateful. We've got an amazing station down here. 100.15 gdR FM is the air station in Gambia. And, yeah, they have the amrep show, Janet does the show and every now and then she'll get me on for a chat and there's the Thursday Night Live, where they get people from the MT to come in and either seeing or chat play the play their albums, and, you know, that just it's, it's small, but it's huge to us, you know, and I think that's wonderful. I mean, if, if, if our listener is in the same community that you are, hold on to and cherish those relationships of community radio, find someone that can fly your flag. Yeah, because it isn't. It is even I believe, even hard to get into community radio. I mean, I can remember back in 2016, we were getting press releases from Sony for Beyonce. And I'm pretty sure everyone knew Beyonce was. Oh, man. That's it. Sadly, that's the you're competing with. Yeah. That's it, isn't it? And when you say you only compelled to play 25%? Australian, easy. Yeah, it's a big, it's a lot of competition. It is a lot of competition. And that's where like, I could have gone down the path of seeking funding to launch my own community radio station. However, that would have meant that I would have had to rely on the local community to have the same vision to rely on government funding, which has its pressures. And, honestly, for what the cost is for me to carry us now radios and internet radio station is 24 hours pure, original Australian music, we don't have any ads. It's just music. So you know, in many ways, I can take the bull by the horns, and continue to lead it. It's not just me, I've got also a developer over in Melbourne. That's where the service is. So you could say we're headed up in Melbourne, but, you know, Joel is our administrator, you know, then I've got others that are about to come on board around middle of the year, we're gonna start having a show on a Sunday night. But again, it's only original Australian music, you won't hear anything. That's commercial, you won't hear anything. That's not Ozzie. That's so unique, isn't it? Like there wouldn't there wouldn't be many like that out there. I don't I don't think there is, but I'll be honest with you. I've never worked on any project in my life where I've been so worried about a competitor, or monitoring a competitor, I'm I kind of play my own lane, and focus on what I'm doing. And that means that I don't get distracted, I can just keep moving forward. Yeah, that's a really good point, too. That's probably something some of our listeners might be able to relate to, to that sort of, we don't need to look around and compare ourselves to others and be worried what somebody's putting out. We just do what feels right to us. And it's true to us, yeah. All right. Well, you've mentioned that you have three children under two, which is massive. Could you share more about that? When I when I talk about that, because it's a really common question when you meet new people, and they say, so how many kids do you have? And now I can say, well, I have two year old Dominic. And I have my four month old identical twin daughters, Amelia and Sophia. Because when I say I have three kids two, and under the first question people say is, are but are they all yours? mass, the mass in their head. Kids are amazing. And when I say that, you know, as a parent, as a mom, I can be really bias. We all we went through give or take about a 15 year infertility battle. Oh, wow. Where we had we got married when a kids and it was just unexplained infertility. And, you know, it got to 20 2018 and we thought, well, let's try this IVF journey. So that went really well. With Dominic. I thought that pregnancy was hard. But you know, when he came out and his, I mean, effectively, like a little potato, you know, you feed you change and just cuddle and they kind of sit there. And I mean, that's, that's when I launched the podcast. It was four months old, and he'd lay there next to me. He sat there for every interview, and certain songs even start to kick his feet. I thought this kid's going to be so into music. But then when we thought we try for a sibling, that pregnancy was really hard. So last year, I spent 150 days in Brisbane. We're currently close to Bundaberg were 2000 kilometers away from our family. They're all in South Australia. And we had a single embryo transfer that split and then the girls Sophia had no fluid around her so 16 weeks we moved to Brisbane 19 weeks I had surgery through Amelia sack, and then at 20 and a half weeks my membranes ruptured on on me Earlier, so I wasn't on bedrest for at one nights waiting for them to arrive. But I worked on AWS now, I was in hospital. So some some of these creative ventures are like a saving grace. You know, I don't have to do any of them because I am a mum and a mum is enough. Being a mum is enough. However, it gives me Saturday. Yeah, it's so important, isn't it? It's so it's so important. So important. Yeah, and I can imagine it would have been quite boring being in bed for that long. I toilet privileges, and I could walk a few steps to the patient Lounge, which is where I had, I was able to participate in, you know, craft classes, and cooking classes. But you know, it was very frustrating because I didn't know what was going to happen. All of the odds, we were given, you know, waters breaking at 20 and a half weeks, the babies were not viable. But through some miracle, I made it to 32 weeks in one day. You know, here I am. Now the girls are four months old, going great guns. I also identify myself that to spend every day, day in day out, talking, speaking and I don't speak to the children like they're, you know, four months old. I speak to them like I'm speaking with you. It'd be nice to have some dialogue in return. And so in the meantime, it's the conversations I have through my creative projects that really keep me going. Hmm, absolutely. And being in so far away from your family, too. It's like you need you need that. It's really important. Yeah, do you do for myself? Hmm, absolutely. Yeah, I wonder I was just thinking, as you were saying, you know, 20 weeks, the odds aren't great. But I wonder if because you were looking after yourself mentally as well. But it's sort of, I don't know, I'm probably drawing a really long bow here. But you kept yourself healthy. in all ways, I suppose. And that probably gave the girls a good chance you were able to stay, they're able to stay in for a long time. I don't know. I'm making sure to be honest. Because I was. I was devastated. I mean, we knew that was my only a year on so that embryo to split was like a miracle in itself. And knowing like they said to me, you know, okay, you've had your surgery 10 days ago, but if the girls come now, and there's a 75% chance that they will arrive within 48 hours, they will not be viable. So I what really kept me going the mindset thing, I mean, are supported by social workers, occupational therapists, pastoral care psychologist, a huge team of clinical support I had created for myself account down funnily enough to 32 weeks, so my obstetrician will come to see me and he'd say, don't do anything exciting. And I'd go Oh 73 sleeps till 32 weeks and he'd be like, This just gets you to 22 weeks and that you know, the goalposts kept moving I had two MRIs while I was pregnant as well. But whenever I felt like all hope was lost. I grabbed the MacBook that I'm currently recording with you right now. And I would you know, lay my bed you know, I couldn't really sit up but I would lay in my bed and plug away and do whatever I could. Knowing that I was creating a difference not necessarily just to someone else's life but also that positive distraction for me was helping carry me through a very difficult pregnancy. Yeah, absolutely. And Catherine Rama left you behind. You're down as a head. So I'm not sure if you want to talk about this or not, I might be prying. I'd say Tell me please if I'm not overstepping the mark. So when you found out that Sofia had no philosophy, you had no fluid. What was that conversation? Like when the doctor said to you this is what's happening. You're listening to the did they sort of say if you don't do anything, this is what will happen. Like what sort of odds Yeah, at that point. I that conversation was a terrifying conversation. Because there's more to the story I had just checked in, because the day the following day, we were to fly to Port Douglas. I was gonna celebrate my 40th birthday with my husband and my son. And we were going to have a little gender reveal party for the three of us to find out what gender the babies were. So, you know, I was at the hairdresser with color on my hair. And my obstetrician Ringling says I need to see you straightaway. We'd had a scan the day before. And, you know, to go to that appointment with my husband and have her say, I'm really sorry, but one of your little girls does not have any fluid. We've been having scans the week before, and we would see Sophia with you know, kind of like a hands around her face. And Amelia, you could see was kicking her and we thought our poor thing she's protecting herself, you know, not you're already fighting, you know. And we used to kind of joke and say, well, because we had baby, you know, bump names for them. And we'd say our, you know, maybe Tilly is going to be the quiet one and coil is going to be the outrageous one. But it turned out that Sofia wasn't moving much because she had no fluid to move in. Wow. So that in itself, you know, we had to cancel. And I still am quite disappointed a lot. What I missed out on during the pregnancy, you know, the things that you do the baby shower, the gender reveal the time we had planned in August to be with our family and Adelaide to do a gender reveal with them. It's kind of rituals I missed out on all of that we missed out on setting up the nursery. Yeah, you know, it wasn't as simple as I would just use Dominic stuff, because there were two of them went to get double double bassinet, double pram, double caught stuffing everything, little highchairs. So that conversation was really just the beginning of the terror. Because then we had to pack and we packed like it will go in for an appointment, only packed four outfits in my overnight bag, and I took my Mac because I thought you know what, like, we're going to be there for a few days, maybe I can work on AWS now. Like that was my thing. But then on the Monday, the 12th of July, when we had that conversation and my obstetrician was, he drew on the whiteboard, it's like, well, these are your options, termination. Or he said we just wait and see because he said you could lose the babies any day now. And this was the thing is while Sophia had no fluid, Amelia, his heart was working overtime, and she risked going into cardiac arrest, because she had too much fluid around her. Oh, wow. You know, and at 16 weeks and, and five days, I'm being told, Well, you know, you really need to get to 19 weeks, we were at stage two with twin to twin transfusion syndrome, which meant that Sophia, you couldn't see her bladder. She didn't have any fluid going through her. And we know how important fluid is for the development. So you know, scans twice a week to see is there a heartbeat? And even that early, you can't really feel movements. With twins. You don't know if they're both moving or anyone's moving. So we were really, really lucky that we got to be able to have the surgery. Which I was awake for under sedation. Yeah, right. And, you know, a lot of families don't even get to have the surgery. Yeah. That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. Thanks for opening the opportunity for me to share. Yeah. And you were also the girls and you and your husband was on an episode of catalyst, which was produced by the ABC, which actually have watched and it's it's hard to watch, but it's also incredibly uplifting to watch because that you sort of realize they put into perspective how far Modern medicine has come to be able to make it possible for these little people to live basically and to have those options. Yeah, what was that like sort of having that? I mean, you're in hospital, the girls are still in hospital. And you've did it feel comfortable having that the camera crew there and you know, strangers talking to you. That was okay. At the time. I mean, Tom, the producer of the day, we had a bit of a chuckle together because when he gave me the media release ones that are very familiar with these, and at that point, Allison, you know, we had decided with Dominic that we will not put his photo on social media. Because we don't necessarily trust who's in receipt of that photo. We don't necessarily like the way social media uses photos. But my husband and I came to this agreement that we'll hang on, if we can share our story, this will be a story of hope for other people or the families. And so on that basis, we did the media release forms. I'll be honest with you, I was only discharged the day before. So I'd had a cesarean. And I notice now in my health app, that from the eighth of August, till the third of November, I had averaged 20 to 80 steps a day. Oh, wow. And that day that they filmed was my first day. Not all 20 to 80 steps, but 6000 Oh, my gosh, 1000 steps, because we had I've been discharged. And we've been we've we've chosen to rent an apartment a kilometer away from the hospital. So C section and all walking six kilometers a day, because I would go back and forth three times. And in for the crew, the most uncomfortable thing of that interview was the pain I was in at the end of it. Because we interviewed for about an hour and a half. Even though I think we're on the episode for about three minutes. It was an hour and a half of filming. I had booked my first COVID job that afternoon. And David had to go and grab a wheelchair to take me to it because I physically could not walk any further. So the opportunity to share was amazing, because Professor Helen lighly was her dad, as you saw in Episode her dad was who pioneered fetal surgery. And we're just so lucky that we had the outcome that we did. Because we were given other numbers. Yeah. So it was it was harder for us to watch it back. Yeah. Then it was for us to record it. Because we were kind of in a state of euphoria at that point. Yeah. You know, we'd been told that day that the girls would likely be coming home within say, four weeks, five weeks. Yeah. When your husband says we'll be home for Christmas. And it's like, oh, that was yeah, it's incredible. You've got that that to look forward to? Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty, pretty awesome. Again, like you're sharing, because you want to help other people. It's like, like you said before, like, it's what you're meant to be doing. It's like what you're put on it to do. And it's so good. And I've recently been in chats with the martyr foundation that I will also be working towards fundraising, to support that clinical support. They're providing the research so the story doesn't end there. Yeah. Now that's fantastic. Yeah, really good. Can you see you're listening to the art of being a mum podcast with Alison Newman. Having three children how do you find the time to do creatively? What you want to do? It's an arena Yeah, I have a way to multitask which I feel comes from my my day is spent working at McDonald's. I do streamline you know I do. I do streamline processes. For me everything feels like a process. And admittedly when the children are sleeping, so dominant goes to school five days a week. I call it school. It's eLC. But even when he's home on the weekend, if hobby is working, because have been an interventional cardiologist as well, so he's rarely home. Kids are asleep. It's my time to shine. And that's what I do. So I typically spend, you know, an hour on Mondays an hour on Tuesdays, I don't have big ticket, focus, you know what I mean? I don't have to sit because the radio station runs itself. Yep. It's me adding new music or me communicating with new artists. Now coming up next month, I start production of my podcast and my YouTube series. That's really big ticket stuff because I'm talking about you know, creating an episode where I'm recording my own intros my own outro is you know how it works. And again with that, you know, I've got a pretty good setup here at home with my studio. I really anytime there's an opportunity, I don't sleep during the day, I've worked out that my my ability and while the ways in which I can and recharge, is not through having a nap or recharge through being creative. What about you? How do you recharge, or lately it's been through napping? Actually just just coming into this room actually, just being in this room just gets gets me feeling good. Like, I'll open the I've got the window closed at the minute because obviously we're recording but I'll open that window, let the breezy and let the sun in. And I don't know just the smell of it just just being in here. And even if I'm not actually doing anything in particular, might just sit in here and fluffer and speeding. Yeah, it is. And it's so like, we've lucky we've got the room in the house where I can come in and, and I've got a fair bit of Lego in here still, but the boys generally take it out in the house to play with it. But it's like, people know, this is my space. And if the doors shut, don't come in, because that probably means I'm recording. Otherwise, the doors open and everyone barges in. It's like I'm, I'm here. I'm lucky I don't have to go anywhere else to do what I do listen to gig, but I'm still accessible to the family, which is, of course, important for me. I like to know what people are up to. And if they're not doing what they're doing. With two boys. I think that's really, really important. And I guess what you're saying as well the fact that we as mums need to be flexible. You know, because I say I'm a mum first and music publishers second. So you know, I'm sitting here, this is the first time I'm in my home studio since last July. So I was pregnant when I sat here last. And I'm looking at the door I have will not be able to fit the double pram through the tool. So it just brings to mind that I do spend a lot of time where I'm doing like the back end of the creative stuff. My desk is my kitchen table. Yeah. And my breakfast bar because the girls are asleep in their bassinet upstairs. Upstairs is our living entertainment area. Were in my office downstairs, this will likely be times when you know because I'm gonna have to carry them in here somehow. You know, and I have been really creative this season with my podcast where I've essentially I pre record my questions. And my guests pre record their answers, and I stitch it together as a conversation. I did that for season two of my podcast and no one will now I will visit people no secret between you and me. And that's the thing like I guess as as mums. You know, I feel it's really important that we have our own sense of identity. Because I personally want to pass it on to my children. Yeah, you know, I need to fill my cup so I can fill this. Yep. And it's this creative soul stuff that really fills my cup. And I want them to grow up just as fiercely independent in their own identity. Absolutely. That is so good. I'm gonna quote you on that. Thanks, Jamie. Yeah things happen again Yeah, cuz identity is, is a really big topic, I find that everyone has their own take on it, which is natural, because everyone's different. But I find that a lot of artists, because generally because you were doing this stuff before you had your children, it's part of it is part of your core identity. It's you grew up creating or meet playing music or painting, whatever, and it doesn't just go away. Just because you have children. It's not like that piling on disappears, you know? No, no. I want to say no, but I also want to say yes, like, no doesn't disappear. Yes, you're right. I mean, this a big debate that usually happens when I'm talking with another mum that I haven't met before. And as that friendship evolves, they'll say things like, Ellie, look, I'm a mum. And you know, I don't really care about work. I really just want to be a mom and I love taking them to school and I love taking them to soccer. You know, I love doing that mom stuff. And you know, I wouldn't mind doing a couple of hours a week work but for me, it's just the mum thing where you Ellie, you have that right? Your career drive you have that real passion. And I do push the envelope. But I think what you've just said is spot on. I mean, for me, I went from doing so much radio stuff to our I can't do it anymore. That's still in still ENADE still within me. But also I went through, you know, the best part of 15 years where I believed I couldn't get pregnant. But I knew that I had a career. And so for me, whilst it was a dream that I spent a lot of years crying for. I knew I had a career. Now, why can't I have both? I only came to that realization really in the last week. Why, you know, this is why I'm so headstrong about. You can be a mum and you can have a curry. Because why shouldn't you? Why can't you what's you know, think about what's possible? And really, if you want it, go out and make it happen. That's it. I mean, the way Yeah, look, I'm I'm in the situation where, you know, I have pushed and pushed and pushed and someone said to me a few years back, if you're walking through a doorway, you kept hitting your head on the doorframe, would you try and go through the door again? And I said, Oh, yeah, you know, I just keep trying and trying. And, and what they were trying to say was, if you're trying to do something, and it's not working, it's not getting to you to where you want to go. Be creative and think up a solution. Think of a different doorway. Yeah. For me, you know, I could have sat here 2020 When I was like, Well, you know, being a mums, not enough for me, I want more. I could have just wallow in self pity and feel bad for myself and I'm the victim, you know, and at the end of the day, I I kind of rose above those thoughts and went well can isolate costs, you can pocket. I've got a certain amount of assertiveness within myself. I have the self belief. I feel empowered. Fuck it, I'm going to make it happen. And I'm going to keep building on my empire of creative projects. And I'm not going to stop. Yep, no one's going to stop me and I hope if anything on the feedback I get that I do, I hope I inspire others who are maybe feeling you know, ripped off shafted, screwed over. Because it does happen where you're in a role and all of a sudden it's not there anymore. Go out and make it for yourself. Yeah, don't step back. Oh, I didn't understand that up until we were in Melbourne. I always realized that I was in control of where I was going in life and I was in control of opportunity because I created them something about coming to this town completely changed my thinking in that I needed someone to give me an opportunity yeah and now just because I'm a mom does not mean I can't keep creating opportunities. Absolutely yeah, that is so well said that deserves to be added I would have pressed applause on my stream deck if I had I'm still got like I said this is my first time in the studio and I've got all these USB cords and at least I knew how to use my ring light Oh I love that love that. So sue me and golf me me have a feeling I'm gonna know the answer to this next question, but I'll let you answer it I'll just keep my thoughts to myself. The topic of mum give it something I'd like to explore with all my guests. What's your take on mum guilt Hmm I don't feel mum guilt. And that makes me feel guilty I can remember I went for my six week checkup with Dominic and I said to my obstetrician I don't know this doesn't feel normal. But I don't feel bad like when he cries i don't feel guilt that I need to run to him. I don't feel you know if I'm gonna take a bit longer in the shower. If I want to go leave him with his dad and go to the shops farmer. I don't feel it. She said no, that is quite normal. It and not with the girls. It's even, it's even worse because you know, I had to leave them in the NICU for five and a half weeks. And at that point I had to say to myself, Elena, you know, you can't look after them right now. They've got nasal gastric tubes for feeding. They've got an inline, they're an isolettes. I mean, there's no way I could have brought them home. But that detachment has gone so far, that like, Now, I could leave the house and not even acknowledge that I'm leaving. Obviously, like, laters, you know? And then it's not until, because I'll be at the shops, and I'll be thinking, Oh, lotto would be nice now. And I'll take my time. And it's not until I walk, you know, driving the driveway, and I walk in the door, and I go, hang on, I never said goodbye to them. So I think the mom guilt thing comes from this is my personal opinion. I think it comes from our upbringing, and our relationship with our own mothers. My mom, I would say, would have instilled in me, you know, this thing of mum guilt, not for any reason of badness. But, you know, I know the way mum put us before her. And I associate that with mum guilt. Yep. Where, you know, here I am. I've got my animals here at the moment. And I'm like, Well, I'm going to get my hair color. I'm gonna get my facial. I'm getting my nails done. Because I need to take care of myself to look after the girls. And I don't feel any guilt about that. Yep. Absolutely. And why should you? Like, you're still a person that that needs to be nurtured. And yeah, yeah. And I do want to be at that point, you know, in 20 years time, where I'm still getting my hair done getting my nails done doing the things that make me feel a person. Because, admittedly, you know, I would have preferred that my mum looked after herself. So that today, she would feel better about herself. You know, it when he's put everyone else before you? How are you supposed to look after yourself how you're supposed to do that self care. And I do feel for her that, you know, I really wanted her if we could rewind the time, let go of that mum guilt. Put yourself first mum. And I suppose that's what I'm telling myself. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that an element of what your mum experienced was a cultural and sort of of the time that that's what was happening? To all the moms? Yeah. And I think look, when we, when we look at generation wise as well. You know, really, mums parents came from overseas. So it was a different time to be growing up in Australia. You know, I suppose that generation mums generation needed to parent their parents. Yeah. While whilst parenting us kids. Yeah. And that's through no fault of their own. Where he here we are. We're, we're not, you know, we could care for our parents, but we're not parenting our parents. We're parenting our children. And who knows where it'll be when our children have the dead children. But it was a different time to be growing up in Australia, Arthur? Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it. Actually. It's made me sort of have a bit of one of those lightbulb moments actually. That my family I knew you were gonna say that about Mum, you. You. For You, I think mum gets bloody load of shit. I just think it's a stupid thing that we're all supposed to buy into. It's like, no thanks. I'm allowed to, I'm allowed to love my children and not be with them. You know, it's part of their journey, or, you know, they have two parents, you know, I don't know. It's true. And I guess, you know, for me, I want the children to grow up, like I said before, fiercely, independent, strong in their identity. But also that as they grow older, they know that mom is strong and her identity. I have seen and I've heard through others, where you know, the mom has this fierce mom guilt and doesn't pursue a career and doesn't pursue other things. As the children are growing up and then the children go to school and what that mum then is kind of displaced. Yeah, that's it. Where did they fit in? Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing I don't want. I don't want that for me. I don't want to set that as an example. There's more to life than that. She's enjoying talking to you this is we could almost spin off into our own podcast. Hey, I'm always open to new ideas to you going down the drain today have to choose between hunger and the lie between the day. And the darkness of the night. There won't be more. Support, I want to touch on that you talked about having your own families like 6000 cases 1000 2002, you said you're further they've been they've been New Zealand or further. So a long way away. It's not like you can just call them up and say, Hey, I need you to like go to the shops. Has that been very challenging being on your normal answer on your own? Because you've obviously got got your husband? Well, how's that? Yeah, that's that's an interesting point, too, because it's very rarely home. He has been very involved career and really his career is what is our lifestyle. It's been, it's harsh. I'll put it, I'll try and put this in the nicest way possible. It's hard. It's sad. The family not being able to experience the children growing up. It's also for me, What's hard is not so much that I can't ring someone to help me. It's when I hear other family members say, I'm so tired. And they have family members who can help them. You know, I guess I've just grown into this situation, which is relying on myself and myself alone. My husband helps whenever he can. He's super supportive, supportive of my career supportive of the children and our family goals. But realistically, Alison, the problem is for me that that kind of lack of recognition from others. Hang on, you know, you have a husband who works nine to five and has every weekend off. You have parents and in laws and siblings who live five kilometers away from you. You can dump the children there and go back home and have a three hour siesta. Don't complain that you're tired. You know, I'm so tired that I don't even know I'm tired anymore. I just know that I could fall over at any point. It's like literally I had blood tests done last week because my dizziness is out of control. Oh gosh. But no, I'm healthy. I'm just really tired. Really tired. It took me eight months to find a nanny. We are so blessed to have been introduced to a beautiful woman who is a nurse by day. I mean you couldn't ask for a better Mrs. Doubtfire. She's a registered nurse during the day. And then she comes over for an hour in the afternoon. She cuddles the girls? I picked Dominique up from school. That is life saving for me. Yeah, that in itself is the best type of help that I can get. And she's she's only been with us for maybe six weeks. But she's like family. You know that for me is everything. Yeah. Because it's true. I can't I can't just ring up and you know, we actually I sewed this was nuts we I sewed twice within four weeks because hobby downstairs for a week me upstairs of the three kids. And then we did it again just for shits and giggles a few weeks later, but that time Dominic had COVID and so did so did happy so you know again, I had family saying to me in Adelaide, like just bring up the nanny get her to come over Can't you ring someone can't someone come and know when you have COVID or your close contact and you're an ISO Mr. Wall was can't even walk through the front door. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. That was a you know, again, that was frantic, but I'll be honest with you. While that was happening, and I had the three children for 24 hours for a week. I was still working on those now. Nothing's gonna stop you. Good on your nine. Kinda love it. Honestly, if anyone is feeling unmotivated, all they have to do is listen to you Talk about how you make things happen. And they'd be like, right, I'm doing it. I'm pumped now, at least got me fired up. But sometimes, you know, there's that whole theory of momentum, you may not feel like doing it. But when you start doing it, you'll feel like could eventually, I have little hacks where if I put on some citrus oil, yep. Or, you know, in Melbourne, their house, the kitchen was off the lot laundry was off the kitchen. And if I put one of those pods in the washing machine, of course, with clothes in the washing machine, that citrus smell was like, you know, kind of like starting the lawnmower for me. Hmm. So that's, you know, I've picked up on Oh, I don't feel like doing that. Now. I will be the queen of procrastination, if I look back 10 years ago. But like I said, I said, I'm happy. Being a mom of twins and a singleton toddler is totally doable. You just have to be organized. So I do admittedly have a lot of, you know, citrus smelling oils and citrus smelly melts, that I burn and what have you so that I can keep motivated during the day? Yeah. So coffee, lots of coffee to change. It's not ignore this. List. I just call that let's say that yeah, it's like, when things don't, when you do have those times, you've got your toolkit to say, right? I've got to do this. I want to do this. Let's make it happen. Again, it's like you're making things happen. And I think joined with that is you also need to listen to yourself. So even though I say I don't recharge through napping, there was one day in the past month. Where I'm sorry, I just can't do today. Yep. And I lacked when the girls napped. I've never listened to my body quite as much as I have since I've become a mum. Because I know I am there for my children. Yeah, so I have to listen to myself. It's that thing again of I have to fill my own cup. Yep. Yeah. You don't have a day off. There's no annual leave it isn't it? They don't go away. They're always hanging. Could you imagine? I know you're only four months old but I really need today off yeah, they come back tomorrow and I'm feeling a bit better. Okay change your interface some way to sing a song. Yeah, we lose track of time. Sharon some day comes my way. Just to reinforce really is always consider what is possible. Yeah, that for me has been the biggest thing through my whole journey and continues to be with the three passion projects that I'm working on. What else is possible? Because I think we get stuck in you know, things only happen this way. Because that's the only way it's been done before. As a mum who is a creator, not just a Creator as a mum creator in the you know, YouTube podcast radio sense. You know, every day I find myself asking that question what is possible it's okay to challenge the norm. That is what it is to be a mum. Yeah, someone has to do it get special you talked about you're gonna get stuck into YouTube. A bit more. We're in your podcast, what have you got sort of coming up that you can share with us? Yeah, so I have season four of my podcast coming up in June. And around the same time, I have season three of Behind the Music with LED coming up on YouTube. So the distinct difference I think I you know, I kind of made a boo boo, because I called them both behind the music with LED, but the podcast is audio only. And then the YouTube is video. And it's not like a video of the audio recording. It is like watching a mini series. So it's a completely different artists. I throw my questions at them, they give me their raw responses. And then, of course, my next suggestion is you can find them online, you have a listen with us. Now I'm also in the process of developing the schedule where we're going to have a Sunday night show. I can't share too much there. But I can share that I've got a couple of announces. Funnily enough, they're all in Melbourne. I'm the only one in Queensland. And we're going to dig deep into the library and really bring out the talent. Because this is the thing is songs get announced. There's no intro, there's no outro every six songs on AWS now you'll hear someone say, Hey, I'm the artist name. You'll listen to us now or keep it tuned to us now. We don't have you know, because again, it's not for revenue. It's there for the purpose of discovering new music. So yeah, that's currently what I'm working on. And the production stuff was the YouTube is more challenging for me than the podcast, but I love watching it when it goes live. So I go to my local, I go to my local better electrical store. And I'm like, What's happening with the TVs that I can I give them a go and then all of a sudden, they turn around and 12 TVs have my series on there. Fantastic when they're all on at the same time. Okay, it's cool, actually in HD. So the good guys to bring up all the stores. Get my views up. That is awesome. Yeah, the site can you tell us like obviously YouTube? Where can people find you radio, like oz now radio, you go to us now radio.com that I use. So that's Oh, Zed like the Wizard of Oz. Oz now.com.au. There, you'll find and you can press play on the web player, or I haven't shared yet. I'm also working on an app that you can download. So at the moment, you can hear us now if you listen to one's like my tuner on tuning, you can program it. I mean, I've got a son OS that I've used my tuner to listen to it stream is cast as radio gardener has a ton of streaming platform. But yeah, I'm just quietly working on an app. I forget about that. And that way people can download the app. And you know, you don't need to go looking for it to scrub the app. That's wonderful. Good for you. Thank you for for the podcasts and the YouTube series. Just go to Google and type in behind the music with LED and it's not led like the light E double L IE, space D for dog. Beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. That is so cool. I'm excited for that. It'll be really cool when I've taken off the generic branding of someone else's radio station. I've loved talking to you today. It's just been such a joy. I've got sore cheeks from smiling and laughing. So it's been wonderful. We'll have to do it again. And I'd love to feature you on ours now radio, so we should have more returned about that. Thank you. I would absolutely love that. Thank you so much, Ellie. It's been a pleasure. Thanks again. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Jade Thompson Australian crochetter and designer S1 Ep11 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Jade Thompson AKA The Crotchet Mama from Mt Gambier, South Australia. She is a mum of 2 girls. Jade has been a creator her whole life in many different ways, inspired by the women around her. She has come into her own over the past year, creating and sharing her crochet animals and creations, and has been blown away by the popularity of them. We chat about how she identifies a feminist stay-at-home mum, finding a Doctor who will listen to your mental health concerns and setting boundaries around your self care and creative needs. **This episode contains discussions/mentions of OCD, post-natal anxiety, an abusive relationship and anxiety.** Connect with Jade here - https://www.instagram.com/the.crochet.mama/ Find Jade's work featured in online Christmas magazine here Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies.. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Jade Thompson, aka the crochet mama Jade is from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two girls. Today we chatted about how she identifies as a feminist stay at home mom, finding a doctor who will listen to your mental health concerns and setting boundaries around your self care and creative needs. This episode contains discussions and mentions of OCD, postnatal anxiety, abusive relationships and anxiety. Welcome Jade, it's lovely to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. I follow you on Instagram, the crochet mama, which I think is a really cute name. Tell us about what you do and how you got into it. I make little crochet animals I got into it are probably about eight or nine years ago, my eldest didn't like sleeping ever. So there was a lot of late nights up on Pinterest, just trying to keep myself awake. And yeah, I came across these little animals, I thought, well, I'm so cute. And then I sort of thought, oh, actually, my mom knows how to crochet maybe I can learn and do that. I like the, like 20 different, you know, like, I don't like this whole, traditional, you know, like the 70s type crochet and all that. Like I wanted something that was modern and fun. And it just sort of, I just love making them in the position sort of grew to a point where my kids had too many toys. And a few people said you should sell these and I'm like, I don't think people are gonna want to buy them like, but they did. And here we are. Yeah. So yeah, when you say that sort of crochet, previous eras, you'd sort of think of Nana's making doilies, or you know, that kind of stuff. Occasionally, those crocheting pants and ties and you're like, ah, what is that? Definitely none of that happening at the crochet right. Tell us about your children. You mentioned your eldest that didn't sleep. Tell us about your kids. Yeah, I've got two girls. They are nine about to turn 10 and four turning five at the end of the year. Yeah, they're both. They're great. I've been at home with them since I had my oldest, which has been to be really cool. Yeah. And they're both at school and kindy. And gives me just a little bit of time to try and, you know, get the house clean for a minute before I come home and trash it. My toys and catch my breath for a minute. But yeah. You said that you started when your eldest was not sleeping about that period. What what did you use it as sort of a way to cope? Or was it purely something to just entertain you looking at your phone while they were sleeping? I guess it was. She just she always had to be on me. So I'd get asleep but I couldn't put it down because she'd wake up again. So just sort of sitting up trying not to move. So yeah, initially when I started it was just because I just wanted to make things for her. I had all these ideas of things that looked so cute, and I thought she would love them. Yeah, it was for her really and then through doing it I found that it helped me with all my thoughts and calming things and I just really enjoyed it like it was always there for me to pick up. It never changed it was always the same and I could just make these things and have a minute of just creating something I've always loved creating things and it's something I just love to do. Yeah, almost here before you got into crochet what others ways of creating were you doing? Well, ever since I was a little kid actually I can remember back as far as when I was little I was always into just pushing things up. I guess like I I would my bedroom was like this highly decorated thing. I mean, obviously kids don't have money. So you make, do you make something new? I would. I went through a stage I remember when I was a little girl, I would cut out little pictures in magazines that I loved and stick them all over boxes and containers and use them to store my craft stuff in I would paint everything like, yeah, and then close it. I do. I've always loved drawing, sketching bit of painting. There was a time when I was maybe a teenager, I sort of always had to create. And then when I was a teenager, I ended up in a abusive relationship. And that sort of, I didn't create for such a long time. there because I guess, anytime I did something like that it was tucked down onto so I sort of stopped doing that. Which Yeah, I'm not if I can't create on your need to be able to create, it makes me happy. And then after that, when I live by myself for a while, I got back into painting a bit and just doing my own plates. That was just mine. But I didn't really share with people because I thought that people think that that was stupid or not like it used to be not a positive thing. So then it wasn't really until I got together with my husband. And he just liked me for who I was whether I was a giant nerd or anything like that. He just like me. And his mom is like this person who she can quilt, she can make clothes, she can knit, she can crochet she can paint, she does everything. And I would go to their house and there's this obvious craft I was like, like, and then that sort of started me off again. I got into scrapbooking for a little while and I do my wedding album. And bit more painting and sketching then, yeah, and then I ended up with I did sewing, I bought a sewing machine and I've made lots of things and made some clothes and baby stuff. And then it went into crochet and always need to be using my hands kids enjoy seeing you do it. Oh, yeah, they love it. They always saying what are you up to? And can I see the face and that will help me my eldest is really good with helping me out colors. And sometimes like, I'll be like I said, my husband, I should have puppies, but here or here and he will look at me like, What are you asking me for? I'm useless at this stuff. But my eldest she's really although both are really quite arty kids. And they'll say, oh, no, mom that should play like this. Okay, all right. And yeah. Yeah, my pattern books, they go through them because I make them some every year for birthdays and Christmas and stuff. And it's a big exciting thing to get my pattern books down and to go through and pick them out. There's little loan, like post it note cans in there saying I want this one. This one's for my birthday. This one's for Christmas. And that's beautiful. So you've like created this tradition, I suppose. It's like, when I was a kid, we'd look through the woman's weekly cake each year to see what it's like a similar thing to each year. And you know, it's actually going to turn out good. Where's the cake? Cake stressing me out. I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's never gonna look like this. What am I doing? So really, you created your whole life, it's almost like you needed to feel the confidence to share with others. I suppose. I started posting it. I don't really do Facebook, it stresses me out. But I mainly go on Instagram. So I would put up little things that aren't made on my private page and people say, Oh, this is really cool. And I'm like, Oh, thanks, but I'm sure you're just saying it to be nice, you know? And then I had a few people say, oh, you should sell these. I'm like, no one's gonna buy this. Like, you know, it's just what people say to people. I was surprised that people liked them as much as they do. You know, honestly A lot my mommy's always say I was like, Chris, highly sensitive person, that sort of thing. So I like creating and things like that has always been, like making my space comfortable. And like the OCD and all that. And I guess how I just switches me off. Because I did find, like my mental health, I was always not great when I was a kid. Like the anxiety and the worries and all that, but it did get better for a while. And then something I just remember when I was pregnant with my eldest, something, I could feel this. Like this shift, like something just wasn't right. And I was just so anxious all the time, I was terrified that something was wrong with the pregnancy. And I go to the doctors all the time and be like, no, no, she's fine. She's fine. It's a textbook pregnancy. I'm like, There's something wrong, there's something wrong. And my husband was sort of like, and even my parents, I think we're starting to maybe wonder if there was something else happening. And then she, I was terrified, she would come early, and no one would like the doctors didn't believe me. And then she did, she was pregnant. And that sort of set me off a bit afterwards, especially with the nice sleep and everything. I was like, Well, if I think there's something wrong with her, and they say she's fine, if she really, you know. So that really freaked me out. And then that sort of started up, like the OCD got really bad, then constantly checking and stuff. And yeah, it sort of never really went away. I sort of got, I lived with it really, for a long time, just these things that I would do to try and make things easier, I guess, and the constant worry. And I would try and go to doctors about it. And they'd say, Oh, and always try and say, Oh, you're not depressed. And I definitely wasn't depressed because I love my life. And I was so hopeful and excited. But I just had this feeling that there was something horrible about to happen, and I didn't know when it was going to happen, but I was sure it was going to happen. So they'd say, Oh, we'll put you in a group with postnatal depression. I was like, but I'm not depressed. And it's only been in the last few years I've seen that they've just discovered that. As well as postnatal depression there is postnatal anxiety and postnatal OCD. I don't really the postnatal OCD the symptoms that I've read a different to what I experience with my OCD. But definitely the postnatal anxiety, I would say I definitely at least got. So then all that with the anxiety about having another Prem led to us having a five year gap between our gills. And I thought, I'm going to do it properly this time. You know, I went and got hit the tires, then all this other stuff. And yeah, I was I was okay for a bit, but I just went back to how I was. And you just learned to live with it. Like you sort of think it's just always under the surface. And it's always there. And you're doing all these things. And she's so tired and exhausted. And it wasn't until really at the start of this year. I don't know if I had like a breakdown of sorts, or whatever. But normally I have these anxious times where I find it hard to stop worrying about something. And it might last a little while but it goes away. But this was just full on for Halloween for six weeks or more like I was I was hardly wanting to leave the house. I would in school drop off and pick up and did the groceries. And that was enough to stress me out like I was not good. So then I thought I think I need more help. Like I've tried three psychologists. Yeah. And then when I spoke to my doctor, he was like, well, medication response. OCD is the one thing that actually responds amazingly to medication. He said we can actually almost cure with medication and then you can come off it and it should it can go somewhat. Oh, okay. So it still took me three months. Or was it three months, maybe two months of having the script and thinking, Oh, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. You're like Ross and Prince. I'm fine. Yeah. But yeah, so then I finally did it. And I wish I had some a couple of friends who had been through a similar thing and they were like, it's okay, you can try Because I was terrified, because I overthink I thought something horrible was gonna happen when I took these tablets. But yeah, I actually I started taking them on after oversight effects where I was like, Oh, is this what it's like to be normal? Like, is this how people live their lives? Because even and I thought that always times I thought I was okay. I was managing it like, I wasn't, I was so yeah, my head was so busy. Yeah, but now I'm like, oh, okay, we'll go do this thing. Okay. There's no hang on, let me think of every single scenario versus like, Oh, okay. And I'm like, Oh, I feel like I feel like a better mom a better wife. And I'm more relaxed. Sorry, huh? You're free of that worry. That was consuming you and yeah, over your life. Yeah, I see. I got to I mean, a lot of the things that I have that I used to got rituals and things like oh, it's so much rituals, it was more like I was never someone like I have to do risk X amount of times or things have to be done in these are sometimes things do have to be done in order. But not everything like it was all stuff that when I sat down and talk to my husband better even he didn't know like it's all stuff that was so like no one else would know unless I told them and a lot of it was just obsessive thoughts like that you try and fix in your head and you're just so worn out you're constantly thinking like and it is tiring. So I do need to have some a doctor said that with some therapy while you medicated you can push past the OCD tendencies without it being a stressful and then once you get past them you can come off for meds you mentioned with ICD do you find then that constructing like in crocheting is is that good for that to keep you focused at district distracts me it's crochet has so many different stitches and so many things you can do. But when I make a toy, I use only one type of stitch. But there's increases in decreases in shaping that goes into it. So it's the same stitch over and over and over again, with color changes or patterns in it. And I just find that so calming, like is this repetitive, it doesn't change, that's just stays the same. You know how it's gonna go? It's certainly, I think, probably reassuring. And it gives you that space where you know, everything's gonna go, probably the way you want it to go to, you're in control of how it goes. It's almost a therapy. I suppose I'll put that in the comments. But yeah, it's sort of a healing thing that you can do for yourself. Really is Yeah, yeah. And then it makes me feel good to make something to you. So it's and we. When my eldest was about, or 18 months or two years old, I changed doctors because I just I was I didn't feel like I was being listened to. And I started seeing a doctor that I'd seen once while I was pregnant with her I had this day where my heart had just felt like it was going so fast out of my chest like it was like it was so fast and having to see a doctor that was on duty and he was so helpful like he actually sat and listened to me and I didn't make me feel like I was imagining things or anything so I thought I wonder if I can get an appointment with him. I've been seeing that doctor ever since and he's absolutely brilliant. Just yeah. Listens doesn't rush me. And yeah, he's the one that's been patient with me and got me all the right help. So there are good doctors and I found one that listens. Oh, good now Yeah, yeah, but yeah, back then. Yeah, it was it was just like are you like especially with my daughter being promos? I always read think like I got to a point where I was thinking about it so much. I just because when you're having your first baby, I'm gonna read all the books and stuff. I could not read any books. I was like, that was what my anxiety was. It was like, Oh my gosh, this is you know, scary. What if that happens sort of thing. So I just stopped reading Doing anything I just Yeah. And then I saw enough, I did see enough missing something not right. Everyone's like, no, no. It's a good pregnancy like she's fine. I'm like why don't I feel fine? Like it's just yeah How do you feel about this, this concept of putting in a quitsies mum guilt that sort of society's throws around at us. Do you have any thoughts about that? That topic? It's funny, like, I listened to your podcast who Julie Denton and she explained it so beautifully. And I thought, Ah, I should think like I am. I'm just the walking mom guilt is just. I've always or I've had, I've always been an anxious person, even as a kid, very anxious, kid. I mean, I overthink everything. So I'm always thinking, Ah, did I do enough with them today? Did? Did they feel love today? Did you know it's just so like, my husband will say you're overthinking it again. It's you know, you did a good job. It's fine. You know, I'm always thinking that I'm falling short somewhere. But that's probably because of me. I think more than anything, but yeah, I'm always thinking that I must be doing something. Not quite right. I'm getting better. But yeah. It sounds like your husband has good support, then to remind you that you are doing a great job. Yeah. Yeah, he is. He's, he's like, he's the solid stable line and I'm just the over thinker and the emotional person. Talking about identity, that's something I also really like to go into with my guests about is it important for you to feel like you're not just someone's mountain, you're still died, you're still the creator, you still you still who you are, even though you happen to have children. To me being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always always in the back of my head, that there are only this little months like they're growing so fast. And it may not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things, but I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm normally not 100 Actually that yeah, maybe not. Maybe three or four but no I love being a mom. But I guess I have liked just only just this last little bit having my page and having that little bit of space where I make my toys and I guess no one on there asked me to you know, make them tea or clean up their mess. mom helped me by my nose and what Oh, no. I have like that. And little things like my pages. One page is going to be in a like an online Christmas magazine. And I went and got photos taken for it and my makeup done. And I have not done that. I got married 15 years ago and that was the last time I had proper photos taken and my makeup done. Like it was like, Who is this person? But yeah, I'm interested to see where it goes. It's like it's kind of it's fun having something that I've made and that I'm doing. Being a stay at home mom is something I have always wanted to be often people just assume like, Oh, just a stay at home mom, like you know, I've got no drive or you know, you sitting at home eating biscuits and watching telly or which Oh, like as someone who has had like I said, I've got my first job at 13 and I always worked full time up until the pointy end of my pregnancy with my eldest. I physically couldn't. But you know, I've always worked and but I can tell you that being at home is just I have ever worked it It is unrelenting. Yes. And it's it's an equal house like, it's not like I'm expected to put on lipstick and look nice for my husband and, you know, have a hot meal and a foot rub waiting for him when he gets home. That's not happening. I would say that I'm a feminist, and all that sort of thing. And you get the impression from some people that they think that you can't be a feminist, you know, you're at home, you're like a housewife type thing. But when it's your choice, and it's what you want to do something that I've always wanted to do. And I had always assumed that when I had kids, this is what I wanted to do. And my husband was happy for me to do what I was happy to do, he would have supported me either way, and we've been lucky that we've been able to do so. So I mean, I realized that some people, it's not an option, not ungrateful, but for me, it is an option and to have that choice to have not have it forced on you. Or I think that's the type of feminism to like, it doesn't affect my girls like neither them like, Oh, this is all we can achieve in our lives sort of thing. Neither of them are overly maternal kids. Like in a you have some little girls who just love their babies and their dollars. Neither one are like that. They just they will always told like, you know, the world is your oyster, you can do what you want doesn't matter. Yeah, I've instilled that in them. It's so important to make to instill that just because you're a girl doesn't mean anything. You are strong, you are fierce. If you want to do something, you can do it like yeah, sometimes I think Did I sort of take on my, a bit more of my personality, because I'm home all the time, like my husband's very sports orientated and really into fitness and stuff like that. And they both love getting outside and playing stuff with him and all that, but they're both super creative as well. My eldest is I don't know where she gets it from, but she's got this insane musical talent. Neither of us are musical but she has talent. My youngest can draw like amazing roaring and yeah, I just I'll do their own thing. They're not just because I'm at home. They're not made their own people. And I think to like always been creative since I was little. For me, creativity has always been based around making like was always around doing that my bedroom and making this homely place and I am a homebody and I think for me, I just love being able to provide this home you know, this cozy bit they can come to mom's here. It's just I realize not for everyone but I love that I can do that. When I found out I was pregnant with my youngest, I was making like a full size blanket for my eldest so I did that through pregnancy. I don't handle being pregnant very well. So it was very slow. I was not it was I was not well and then I started making my youngest a blanket for when she was born. It did slow down a lot being pregnant and then afterwards where he just saw exhausted and fading all the time so it did slow down a bit of time probably picked up a bit again maybe when she was around one will be before she turned one when they can sort of sit next to you maybe your your hands are a bit more free to things rather than maybe all the time. Is it important to you that each of your, your designs that you make, that they're different that you're not making the same color? are, you know, if someone orders something, you make sure you don't do it in the same color as you've done something else? Yeah, very important. Yeah, I want every light because that's the, when I think of handmade and all the time and effort that goes into it, you're going to spend more than you would if you were buying something from a shopping town. So I want to make sure that when you get that, that it is special and unique. And you're the only person with that, that's just yours. I have had a few people say, Oh, can you make me this dislike this and I'm like, I can make you that animal. But we've got to change the colors. Next year, I'll have two kids at school. So that's where I'm sort of hoping to see where this goes, I guess, obviously, there will still be days when they need mum. And I'm not going to be able to do anything like every mum has been trying to fight this anxiety and OCD for so long. And I did just start some medication about three months ago, which has helped me immensely just to be able to do things. And yeah, like there's been times where, like, before, I wouldn't have gotten I got photos done, I wouldn't have not when I first made my page, I was never going to show my face on it. I was never going to do anything like it always just going to be these faceless pages with my creations. But I sort of made some friends on there, like local people, and they're like, who are you? Who is this person? I'm like, Oh, hi. Yeah, so sort of, it's been nice to sort of Yeah, meet some people through here and see what I can make. I guess I just want to see, I have plans to or now I mean, thinking about it, I have plans to make lots of my own patterns and steal patterns as well. So that that's another way that people don't have to wait for me to make something people that can already make can do that one day I'd love to write a pattern book. Just have my own book made it make it like a storybook you know, with these creatures in the story. And I've always wanted to add a book. That's another thing I want to look into. And yeah, I guess I'm just seeing where it goes Yeah. When I go places, so if I've got a doctor's appointment or a dentist appointment, yes. Something that the kids, you know, just go into the shops, whatever. And I go kid us. The first question I always get to ask is, where are the kids? But my husband, he doesn't ever get asked, Where are the kids? You know? Is it just because, and what oh, sorry, I didn't realize I needed an audience for a pap smear. And even if I bump into someone down the street, like I might have just nicked in after school, drop, pick up a job offer something to grab something from the shops. It's like, oh, you keep lists today. I'm like, school, sometimes I feel like saying, I'm at home alone, but it's fine. I've put TV on and the pantries open so they'll be right. With my anxiety and stuff, like things like that really used to really upset me, I'd be like, Oh, I must think I'm a terrible mom, you know, like, stuff like that. And now I'm just like, No, you know, they have another parent, they have a dad who's more than capable. Or you know, he's at work. My mother in law comes and helps out like, it's yeah, I'm not gonna leave my kids at home alone. And that's important, too. I think people who make those off the cuff comments that make them mean nothing to them, but they don't think about the impact that they have on other people. You know, like that, like you said that that sort of comments would have really heightened your anxiety and, you know, made you question yourself, but some persons just flippantly made a remark and yeah, I think it's important for people to realize that you don't know what other people are going through I have started like because I'm not someone who, like I said, I'm a homebody and I do actually genuinely love being around my family, even When the kids are driving me crazy, I simply want to be away from for too long. So I started doing things like, it was really hard at first, but sometimes just saying, No, like my mom do this, do this, do this. I actually say, oh, no, I'm going to finish making this Christmas ball. Now, at first I like, oh, but in our, you know, mom can do other things, too. She's not just the thing we go to when we're bored. And I started. I love bass, if I'm stressed or frustrated, just put me in water or near the beach, and I'm all good. So I've been sitting in the bar, like, I'll get tea on early, I get the gills or really my husband cleans up the kitchen. And then I go and sit in the bathroom bar. So until it gets cold. I just say now what actually makes me it's just a little bit of something that I do. And I would never have done that before. Because I would have felt guilty that I wasn't being available and being all these things. I'm like, No, actually, I need to go and just sit in the bath too much and into a prune and yeah, doing things like that. So small steps but yeah. You're always lived in at Gambia. I have. Yeah. So I was born or I lived out of town, I went to OB flat primary school, which doesn't even exist anymore. And then my, where we lived way out at cave to whichever one goes where I know where there was like always, there's always this tiny little group of houses. So I live there. That's what I grew up. And the is probably closer to Grant High. But the school bus for Allendale came to serve and I thought my daughter was trying to get in the room. The school bus came to the end of our street. So I went to Allendale. And that's actually where I met my husband. So we weren't together until we've been friends for about five years and he'd been overseas and then we got together but yeah, that's where I'm at human. Yeah. So always local but sort of out of town until I became an adult really can you tell us about what you've got coming up? I know I saw on your Instagram page. You're working on some Christmas decorations. I'm trying to get through them at the moment. So I've got the Christmas decorations. I want to make 12 I don't know why I had to throw in my head. Maybe I had the 12 days of Christmas or whatever. Suddenly my head but I'd hoped to make 12 If I can. I have a lot of orders to get through. It was one of them. It's going to be another one that I'm going to be designing myself which I'm really excited about. I've got the magazine Christmas thing coming up, too. Yeah, just orders like the other weekend. I had so many people message me for orders. I'm like, I'm booked out till next year. Like it's just it's just like, oh, wow, okay. I need to buy a diary. Because I've just got this notepad in my phone this is like Okay, I think we need to do something a bit more proper here but yeah thanks so much Jane. It's been lovely chatting with you and all the best with your Christmas range and, and getting your book going. I'd be really excited to hear about that in the future. Thank you

John Anderson Australian musician and composer S1 Ep08 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts To mark Father's Day here in the Southern Hemisphere I share 3 special episodes where I chat to 3 creative dads to get their take on things, how they continue to make music while being hands on dads. In this first episode I chat to singer, songwriter, producer and multi instrumentalist John Anderson. John is from Mt Gambier Sth Australia and is a father of one. We chat about balancing creating music with working full time and parenting, where he finds the time to record these days and how dads experience guilt. Listen to Johns various music incarnations - First Thrown , Trev and Alemjo Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ John's music used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. Today I released three special episodes to mark Father's Day here in the southern hemisphere. I chat to three dads to get their take on things and how they continue to create well being hands on debt. In this first episode, I chat to singer songwriter, producer and multi instrumentalist John Anderson. John is from Mount Gambier South Australia and is a father of one. We chat about balancing creating music with working full time. And being a dad, where he finds the time to record these days, and how dads experience guilt. I hope you enjoy. Welcome to the podcast. John, it's great to have you on this special episode. Thanks very much, Al. So I've got to tell you, everyone, first up Johnny's my brother in law. So some things we might say, might go over people's heads with that. So why don't you tell us about your music, how long you've been playing? How you got into it, all the different instruments that you play and that sort of stuff? Right? Well, I guess I started playing probably. I think back when I was maybe in year, seven or eight possibly. I had my oldest brother's acoustic guitar, I believe that he had left home when he moved out. And I was just basically playing sort of one string just intending thing. And just yeah, just moving my fingers along the fretboard and finding notes. I thought, oh, yeah, I could probably get into this. So yeah, I was mucking around with that. And he had a bass guitar, too, I believe, which I sort of tried to play as well, which was basically just a bigger version of a guitar. So I had a bit of a muck around with that. But yeah, that's, I suppose the very first music thing I ever really played was probably the guitar and up to this time still playing it, obviously. But yeah, and then I guess it was probably after that would have been a drum machine I think I got which was some kind of small little Yamaha thing that I'll look at did the job. But yeah, I was just just had like little electronic pads that I just had the drumsticks and I'll just be hitting on there and making little beats. So yeah, I guess that's my first introduction to drums. As the years went on, I think it was about year 10 I saved up and got my first electric guitar. And just basically self taught myself and which was very basic stuff at the time. Some of it still is to this day. Yeah, so I think get from there. It just grew and yeah, that's pretty much where it all began for me, I guess. Yeah. Yep. So you've never had any formal lessons and you never know. So and this would have been before the days of YouTube where you could actually watch someone teach us so you truly are self taught? Yes, yes. Yes. Now is probably as I got older and into the teens, I guess you'd have you know much over at a friend's house or something. And the thing at that period of time was obviously Nirvana tunes and but the thing I remember most would have been Smoke on the Water by deep purple which I think most I know a lot of rock or metal heads would know how to play that so so that was but that but back then that was what it was, it was just you either see music videos and sort of watch that evening you can't really see what they were if you got a really keen oil good or you could see what they're playing on the guitar but it was more more or less you know if you could read music you'd you'd be reading notes and whatnot, but for me it was just sitting around with friends and playing his horn you going on What have you done then I'll give that a go and they smoke on the water. High School in the 90s for you. Nirvana, Pearl Jam, what were the other things that you were listening to? influenced you back then. Back then I was a rap head and a metal head. So I more I think from recollection. Well, going back in time a bit, I suppose the first a lot of music was from my oldest brother who was into a lot of various stuff, it was off the top of my head, it was like violent femmes the cramps. I can't even remember some of the other bands, but there was just all lucky like midnight oil and just a real big range. And then my, my other brother, he was quite strong into rap music, so they'd be public enemy and NWA. Or there might have been a bit of Run DMC in there too, I believe. So there was a lot of rap music. So I had a lot of interesting sort of, I guess was like independent. I don't know what you'd call a lot of that stuff independent sort of rock, pop rock or you just really experimental stuff, but then there was the hip hop. So I was into that. And then probably early teens, I think one of my friends got me into sort of heavy metal so it was a pain Tierra I'm sure nothing other pains now pain tear. And I as it was funny because as a as a joke, there's there's a band Napalm Death, which are still alive to this day. But one of my friends actually had a tape of which one of his friends gave him it was. I mean, for people that don't know Napalm Death, there were like a grindcore band that back in the early days just played crazy, fast music that might even last five to 10 seconds. That's how long the songs were so. So we listen to that as more or less a joke within you'll listen to this crazy stuff. So But over time, I sort of started actually think this is pretty cool. Actually, he was going against the grain. It's not normal, a normal strong structure. And then I had some other friends that really got into it. And so that was interesting. But it was a more or less more pan tear and sort of those heavy bands back then. But also Yeah, the grunge scene. So say obviously Nirvana and Pearl Jam Soundgarden. All the good ones. Yeah, so it was there was a bit of a mixture there. But yeah, now the year, I was definitely part of the grunge listening crew so. So with your music, I know that you've done quite a lot of different genres, for you to get into these different sort of styles of music, because it just, you're influenced by what other people listening to what you heard, you never really had any sort of idea that you were going to play a particular kind of music, you would just open to any sort of influence, I suppose. Yeah, it was, I think, yeah, just whatever struck a chord. And I guess for the majority of my stuff, probably lies in the realm of sort of extreme or hardcore or something like that, which I've just always been drawn to that sort of abrasive style, I guess. And it's, yeah, I'm sort of, I guess there's an expansion lot. There's different elements to a lot of that music. But yeah, it's just, it's just what sort of grabbed me so you know, from playing sort of heavy, heavy rock. You know, it's, it's just got a, notice a certain feel to it, that I've that I've always been, I've always felt sort of connected to so I'll play that. And then yeah, obviously, there's more extreme stuff, like you might be death metal, or black metal or grindcore, and all that sort of that sort of stuff. And, and that's just, it's just this sort of slight sort of therapy in a way, I guess. But it's just something that I just found that I could see myself doing and then sort of went down that avenue and and then yeah, like obviously, as times gone along, there's been other sort of genres, as we call them. That might be a bit more sort of a bit more lighter, you know, not quite as heavy and like, for the last, maybe the last five to 10 years has been like I've got into a lot of instrumental rock metal bands and stuff that have a lot of layering which, probably to this day, I don't think I can create a song without lowering, lowering to hell. So but you In a lot of that's just like this sort of wall of sound that, that I'm drawn to with just sometimes it's probably a bit too busy but, but just hear like so many different instruments coming together as one and it just max this out and it just makes this terrific sound that just pricks the ears up and you get right into you're dead. Tell us about your little person, a little person. She's Ruby, she's turning five soon. And she at the moment is singing the house down. And from what my, my wife Emma, your sister said she's. And I think you've said this too, that she's got a very mature, powerful voice and I know it's powerful, that's for sure. Yeah, wow. Really, but, but even this morning, I think we were just chilling out lying on the bed and just had an hour, she just built it out this chain and just, you know, my ears almost exploded. But it was good. It was good. But yeah, she's just just so enthusiastic with singing and obviously being around Emma. And an M is teaching her you know, not I guess not forcing it, but just sort of giving a little hints along the way of how to project it and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, she's, she's, she loves so much that loss of musical for a really it's just everything could be just create everything could be broken down into a song really so. So she's now she loves singing and yes, she's just Just a happy little girl that goes around singing and loves loves being a kid, I suppose. So I know personally, Ruby's had access to instruments and like the keyboard and things like that, from a young age was that important for you that you wanted to share that love and that experience of music with her? Yeah, I think so. Because it's, it's a part of me and Emma's life, I guess it's so he's been pretty strong with this. So I thought, you know, without pushing it too much, but that, you know, rubes you know, would have you know, say like, I've got a like a little Yamaha keyboard that just gets around the house. And she's she's played that and you know, even like a little ukulele and but yeah, like without saying you know, you've just have a go at this play this just just sort of have it in front and see what happens. And yeah, like, over the years, he's played some tunes even one that I actually recorded think she's I could almost use that and like an intro for a song or something. But yeah, now she's, I think I think it's good. Even if parents aren't into music as much, I think if they can give kids that option to just try it. Because it's just such a awesome thing in my eyes anyway. To have music in your life, so yeah, and if kids get into it, they get into if they don't, they don't, but IRIB seems to be she seems to enjoy it. Definitely the singing part. So yeah, I think it's I think it's pretty important. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you've done a lot of writing and recording yourself over the years, has it been something that you've gone into? It's like, you find that you said it's so important in your life, it's something that you go to, to, you know, work through, you know, challenging times in your life, it's sort of the therapy like you, you use that word. So it's been there for you all reckon yet, I think it's always regardless if it's been a therapy, or just, you know, jumping in the room and recording something that's just, you know, for a vibe or a feeling you've got I think it's it's definitely a form of therapy and yeah, so sometimes it might be just jumping in there, and, and just seeing what I can do and other times, like, you know, really, you know, feel in some of the day and you just think, you know, sort of out and I'd like if it's if you haven't, you know, a bit of a bit of an ordinary day or something like that it's sometimes it's good just to just go in the room and and see what syrup pours out. And yeah, and if it works out, just hit record and see how it goes. And so, yeah, I'd say that some, not maybe probably maybe half and half a lot of it's got more out there, what would you call it more? There was more emotion probably put into it. And whereas others are just more of a sort of a creative work, but yeah, for sure. I think it's definitely a therapy. Which, definitely, sometimes with a heavy music, I think not that it's has to be evil or anything like that. But I think as aggression goes and letting out frustration that I think sometimes that can be good, especially if you've got yourself a drum kit doesn't have to be great. But jumping on the drumkit and thrashing the living heck out of it can be quite, quite good. Yeah, soothing, you know, you can just lash out and then just say, Ah, that's better. So, you know, the better if you've recorded it, yes. How do you go these days when, as a father, you work full time? How do you find the time to actually get in there? And like you said, if you just want to get something down, or you have an idea, like, how do you manage that you sort of in your day to day, I guess was you know, it's very tough. I think before before rubes came along, it was you know, you could you just basically had the freedom to at night. You like for instance, or remember, I could be in my recording room. And it could be a as you might be aware of this, it could be hours have passed, and Emma might knock on the door and come in and say Do you realize what the time is, and I'd be looking at my phone or something going on. So time just goes and it's to me, it's good. Because when you're being creative, I think you need that. You need that space and time. Even if you're even if you're not doing anything, which in some people's eyes might be just you're just bludgeoned to sing, you know, you know, just playing a tune on a guitar, but you're, you're constantly thinking and, you know, thinking of stuff, whereas now, since Ruby has come along, it's sort of almost like scheduled time, which don't get me wrong, you can still be creative, but it's it's like you've got this vise on. It's sort of like this, you've got this timeframe like, right, you know, I've got maybe an hour tonight to, to work on something. And you know, you could spend 55 minutes of that trying to work it out. And then you've got it. Ah, well, look, time's up. But yeah, I guess it's definitely, time has been a lot more restricted. But, but you can still make it work. It's just, it's just a bit bit harder to sort of relax and have that vast freedom that you used to have, but it's like, you can't just get there when the moment takes you. You can't just go oh, I'm gonna go do that. Yeah, well, there has to wait till seven o'clock tonight. Yeah, yeah. Hold that thought after bedtime. Yeah, she just like, how do you go then in the house now with rubes to like the sound like the noise out? How do you manage that? Like, is that hot? Well, I guess the majority of my recording that I do now is pretty much at night time. So really, when she's asleep? That's probably when I do the majority of it occasionally. I might do some in the say in the daytime afternoon, or whatever. And I'd have I'd have the door shut behind me and if I'm playing guitar or something, I'm constantly looking over my shoulder and I'll hear a knock or something and I'm thinking I've got five more seconds please just wait wait but then you know if I get interrupted you know, that's just life but it can be hard but do I think now know that I'm probably strictly a night recorder now so so yeah, things just have to wait. I mean, I can still play guitar or you can think of things during the day and you might you've got like a little recorder next to you can think of something not that I'm a singer but I'll try to sing something and have an idea and then I might put it to you to use later on, but yeah, it's just, it's definitely a nighttime thing for me now. So So we've seen obviously, with going back to the time restrictions, you're sort of, you know, if you're working what not, you can't be up all hours, like when you're in your younger days and things you can bounce back in the morning. So it's you still got to get your beauty sleep. So. So yeah, that takes takes a little bit of the hours out of the day, but you just got to work with what you got. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all about negotiation. And when your time is not your own, it's like the end. Gotta get in there somewhere. So do you do collaborations with anyone at the moment? Yes, I've got an old friend though. I went to school with Steve, we've got a little music project called early LIDAR. It was a it was originally a three piece we had a our other friend Edie who he was missing in action for a lot of years. And he was a hard man to track down but but only the last three, I think last three years, we have been sort of messaging each other over messenger or text and saying we want to get back into it and, and interesting, like with COVID. And sort of traveling and whatnot. We worked out a a little system that he could record guitar parts and his vocals and he sends them to me through Dropbox. And then I put them onto my recording desk, and I programmed drums to order and mix it. And I haven't mastered it yet, but I'll get there one day, but mix it all up. And yeah, and we've made two albums since 2018. I think it was and you're in the process of doing a third one. So you were pretty pumped with that. So yeah, that's been a little bit of a project. But well, I suppose also there's a lamb Joe which you'd be familiar with. Other people about Allison and John LM Joe meditation, music and music relaxation and it's fantastic you did just everything and then Emma and I just rocked up and did some lady does over the nine it was a team effort team effort. So what instruments did you play on that just for the familiar that was only did guitar and keyboard for a couple of the songs I believe and I think that was was about it? I think there might have been some drum program now I can't really remember do not have layering in all layering is no reverb. Oh, I'm a junkie for reverb. I'm trying to cut back on my reverb these days actually. Yeah, you can't you'll be in trouble. But yeah, it was so that's that's what I did and then you ladies put your your lovely vocals to it and a bit of a flourish with the maybe the tambourine a little bit of percussion singing bowls to a blouse Yeah. That was a fantastic project which is about to turn six yes yes wow crazy Steve that you do your you collab with your album? Is a dad as well. Yes, yes. Yes. So he's facing those same challenges when when he's gonna get back to you and get it down. And he's so really apart from yourself and Emma when she's, you know, when she's got small times to do music. I don't know too many other people, personally that, you know, fathers others that doing music that Steve? Yeah, he's, he's a sort of a, I guess a fairly new dad too. But yeah, he's, he's definitely he's a, he's a boss. And he's so he works a lot of hours every week and just to find the time from working in family life, and then you went, he's got a moment, he'll jot something down and, you know, send it to me. And then you are not happy with that. I'll send you something maybe tomorrow night, depending on how the night goes. And that's what I normally say the interest will say to him, you know, the call, I'm gonna try to work on that tonight. But fingers crossed if we have a good night or a bad night. So we've rubes if she wants to go to bed or doesn't want to go to bed or something or, or something. crops up, but yeah, that's, that's, that's how he works too. And just finding the time and the heads just can be can be tricky. But you can do, you can just get the time in somewhere and make it happen. And sure might be you'd be more drawn out. But if you, you keep the fires going or you work, you'll get your end product somewhere down the lawn. So that's the thing, you've always got an intention that you want to you want to do what you're getting back to it, it's just that slotting anywhere so when you're doing that work for a living, how do you sort of come up with those songs? Pretty much improv. It's sort of, I guess, it's playing something quite mellow for a start. And it just, I guess, finding a train that's I guess, sort of resonates with relaxation, and all this, all those wonderful things that come with it, and then you're just finding the guitar on top of that, that fits in, I guess, with the most was what we call the root note, whatever you want to call it. And yeah, just I guess just saying what fits with what and then as you be aware of the songs, they almost seem like they're sort of two halves put together. So the first first is normally that you know, the same sort of change and then second half the songs completely might go completely somewhere different but but yeah, it's just all I guess, improv feel. And just see what comes out. And don't get me wrong. There's been a lot of scrap papers I'll be playing now. But now I'll get something that I think so not too bad and and record it picks it up and so you guys just keep keep building on it and seeing what what happens so you touched on the in John, that there's not too many other musicians in your circle that are parents. So have you sort of found it hard then to, I guess, have a role model or some sort of guide of how you're supposed to do this? How you fit this into your life and keep creating more you're such a hands on parent. Yeah, it's yeah, it's I suppose it's a tricky one because I can't I can't really Yeah, I haven't really rolled off anyone you know, apart from you might see some YouTube clips of say, Dave Grohl or something with his kids. And not that I'm comparing myself to grow here but but, you know, all these big musicians and you can watch a clip of them in the studio when their kids are coming in saying, Hey, I thought we're gonna go swimming or something. Daddy just got to do this guitar beat and then I'll be right there and like, now I can't really you haven't really got any anything to really base it on part from just my own experiences and just over time realizing what works for me and yeah, and then just just going with that and then obviously, as time goes on, and rose gets older, it'd be probably a bit easier because she's been more independent. And you know, it's, you might be on whatever more time to then expand on recording, but just the whole process, but for now, it's just chipping away at night time. On st. So I want to touch on the topic of identity. Obviously, I've been speaking to a lot of moms about this, but I wanted to delve into the debt side of things. You see, when I talk to moms, it's easy because they fail Oh, yeah, straightaway. Because it's like, a massive big deal today to be who you are doing whatever you like in the world. And then all of a sudden, you're a mom, it's like, you only exist for this child, like you physically exist for the child. But I guess, for a dad, who, I'm not being rude, you're being offensive and all that might take the second role now overloads for mothers of their mothers different, definitely different for the mothers and the fathers. Even the father does a lot. It's just, I suppose, you know, organically and physically and all that stuff. It's so much different for the mother. It's just just the way it is. But we my eyes anyway. But yeah, I think, yeah, I think for fathers, it does change, but nowhere near as much. As a mother, I don't think going through all that sort of identity, like of, you know, keeping your sort of individual identity. And sort of just trying to separate sort of that. motherhood, fatherhood to your individual, I think it's, it's, it can get lost in the waters can get a bit murky, but, but it's definitely very important to have those two separate, because, I mean, you just, you, you think you just run yourself silly and you end you lose that individual identity. And then I don't know, maybe a lot of the passion that you might have for music could sort of wither away a little bit. Because you just feel like that you've you've got to put family as a priority. And then this is so exhausting. And draining that you might, you might lose that identity a bit. And it's easy to just go there. One day, I'll get there. But I think if you can find the time to even if it's a little bit just to separate them and to keep that individuality is very cool. Another topic that I talked to the mums a lot on this show is about mum guilt, and I do it in the air quality is hashtag Mom, do you find as a dev that you've experienced anything like that? doing the things you want to do with to keep your because it is so important to you to keep doing it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'd have to say there is there is some some guilt sometimes like, say, for instance, if you know, I've talked to me about you know, like, spinning when allocating some time, in an afternoon or something, just to work on some music of something, and everything's perfectly fine. And that but, you know, being in the room, you know, I've got my headphones on playing guitar, I do I have that thing in the back of my head that's burning a bit saying or maybe I really should be out, there's, you know, it's the daytime, it should be with my family, what am I, you know, being a bit selfish being here. But then, you know, if you've got people around you that are, you know, being honest with you, and insane, you know, that's, that's, it's fine, what you're doing, you know, and I think you've got to realistically look at yourself outside of yourself and think, yeah, it's actually this isn't too bad. Like, um, you know, obviously, if you lock yourself away from everyone, you know, it might be a different story. But if you, you know, if you're only spending a bit of time here and there, and trying to you know, just keep that creative spark going, like, I think that's a good thing. You know, all parties have said it, go ahead and do it. And so, yeah, there is one live inside there isn't there is a little bit of guilt. But yeah, it's I think that's just a human human response, really. So. You'd have to be maybe crazy to think yeah, you're not. Yeah, you know, being guilt free, but yeah, just it's just a tribe and we'll we'll see We're talking before about when you're creating when you're in the room creating and you get the little knock on the door. Ruby's quite aware of what Dad's doing in there with his music. Big Daddy. Oh, so let's drop everything attenuate needs. But she's quiet. She knows what you're doing. Does she try and get involved with music? Do you I think I'll probably, I don't think we'll have actually been recording anything she has bought, there's been some lovely little moments where I think I've got a couple of videos of where I'll be playing guitar or even not even playing guitar and Ruby will say, habit daddy ever you play guitar and I'll dance or sing like, okay, so I'll put the guitar into the app and just strike out anything and she just be dancing around like a free spirit. And yeah, that's that's quite nice to know. Which is, which is a good thing to go back to kids with music. If, if kids love music come in. It's even if it's just a an improv thing, whatever, just to play some music together. Doesn't matter if there's mistakes or whatever you're playing. If you're playing in tune or not. I think it's it's a really great thing to just just have a little thing where you're just playing music and dancing and singing and carrying on and it's just such a warm vibe you get from it. That that's really important. But yeah, there's been a couple of instances where she might say, you know, Daddy, you should record me doing this or doing that today. We could do that. Walk around, but I don't think there's been any recording as of yet. Anyway. I think the day will come and the day will be coming. So I'm looking forward to that. Because yeah, it'd be it'd be really great to have a as a part of something I'll create down the track on it. Awesome. Awesome. So good. Yeah. And she's actually influenced your work as well. Is there's a song that you made when just after she was born? Yeah, actually, yeah. The the day she was born, actually. I think I recorded a little number on my electric acoustic. And I think I snuck in before midnight on the day. So yeah, I think we're just because Emma was in hospital, and I went home for the night and go back this occasion. So I think I just think of just whatever come to my covenant, my fingers and my ears and the ability to tune in it's, I think I've called it welcome my daughter, I believe so. Yeah. And I guess yeah, she's, I suppose, probably with the music. I don't know if it's, she's or father would change the way I've done music, but definitely thinking of topics or issues. If I do write lyrics for a song or something, I guess that's probably where it might have changed because of a father would no say just genuinely getting older and your views might change and definitely your thoughts changing the way you look at the world changes as you get older. So yes, she's probably changing in that aspect of thinking about the world. So is there anything in particular you're working on at the moment, John? I think just, I think the cogs are still in motion. It's just, I think the stuff I'm doing with Steve early later, I think we're still working on a few songs of that here and there when we got the time. But apart from that, it's just when I've got the times to jump into the studio as a call and see if I can be a bit creative, but it's just a it's just a matter of keeping the machine greased and kick the kick the ball rolling and say what the future has in store. Thank you so much, John. It's been a pleasure chatting with you on this special episode. All the best with the music and I'm sure I'll see you soon. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Welcome along late. Thanks so much for being part of this special episode. No worries. Thanks for having me, Allison, of how to listen to a couple of the podcasts so far. And it's sounding really good. So yeah, it's great to be a part of this. Oh, great. Thank you. All right. So for those people who aren't familiar with your music, and what you've been up to Jordan, give us a rundown of how you got into music, what the, the style is, and what you what you're up to at the moment as well. Yeah, for sure. So I got into electronic music, been a DJ. And I also studied audio engineering at SAE in, in Melbourne. So I was, you know, recording bands and stuff like that in Melbourne. And then also DJing on the side. And, and when I sort of, at the end of my finishing up doing DJing, I just wanted to sort of make music and, and at that sort of stage, I sort of got into the electronic music field. And, and yeah, started sort of producing tracks and making music and just my own sort of own sort of style sort of thing. So yeah, that's how it all sort of started out. I was I started out as a punk DJ, like I was at nightclubs in Melbourne, playing, playing punk rock music, and, and, yeah, I used to record bands and stuff and do sound engineering for a fair few bands on the circuit as well. So when I do, you know, between their sets, I used to DJ at the clubs, and then they come on afterwards another mix them while up on stage playing. And that's, you know, that's my early roots has always been punk rock. So, you know, I grew up listening to that, you know, no effects and, and all those sort of punk punk bands, you leave sort of Green Day stuff and living and and all that. And that was the scene I grew up in. And, yeah, that's sort of sort of how my music career sort of started out really, it was, like come from, I've never been really musical as such, but I've always had a fairly good ear for music. So it was more to do with audio engineering and stuff like that. So yeah, but when I first started out as an audio engineer, it was a long time ago. And we were, you know, Pro Tools just sort of started the, the digital era was just coming out. Well, I was I was back when it was, we were recording off of like tape and stuff like that will cut and bits and pieces. So it was a long time ago. And then it was just sort of for me into that digital era. So yeah, it was a it was good time. And that's Yeah, so my early, early parts are all punk rock. That's, you know, that's where I sort of started the whole music sort of thing with me. So when you say, pre electronic sort of equipment, does that mean you were DJing? With proper records and that kind of stuff? Back in the day? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. That's, that's how, you know, we, as DJs when I started, like with the punk rock stuff, it was all on CD and stuff, it had nothing really to do with with mixing as such, you would just drop any music after the song had finished. So you just had to have a really good ear to what would come on after that track it was so it was really just whatever you wanted to play. But then when I that's what sort of got me into electronic music was that it all had to do with like BPM and actually mixing the song and actually making songs really mash together really well without sort of, you know, missing a beat. That's what you couldn't do that with punk rock music, you know, you're just playing songs after songs and just trying to keep the crowd entertained. As much as you want to do that with electronic music, you've got to be a good mixer. And starting off, too, with turntables, like I had a, like a reasonable time on turntables. But I wouldn't say that my main DJing was with turntables that was sort of like, turned over onto that the CD sort of format, and we were sort of mixing off of CDs and CD decks, the early early CD decks and stuff like that, but we were, you know, you had to be a but you had to be a good DJ, to, to be able to get by back then these days. You don't have to do anything, you can just push a button and it'll sync everything up for you. And, you know, the kids love it. So that's a lot. It's, it's a lot different. It's a lot different these days. So, yeah, yeah, for sure. I think a lot of people now just press play and especially the young kids doing it now they don't seem to be actually mixing live as they're going, Oh, it's 100% I you know, my club times in in Adelaide. You know, I sort of that's where I sort of finished my my DJing career is was I had a a like a residency at the casino where we go and play there. Uh, you know, every every Wednesday night, and it was it was really good vibe and everything like that, but we used to go out a lot. And afterwards and that and to other clubs and you go there and you just go up and have a look and see what they're doing. And you would see people push and play on, like a mix on on, you know, like a Spotify mix or something like that. And that was what they were doing. And I'm like, what, like, what are you doing? Are you actually doing anything up here or, you know, and a lot of did it lost its vibe, because the people, they actually, they don't really know how to mix at all, they just have got a sink on their on their mixer. And, and it pretty much well, you know, everything comes together and you get you can't get by if you go to a club, and you sit back and you listen to music. And you either know if it's a shit DJ, or a really good DJ. And that's, that's these days, you can go out and you put it to work and you'll you'll know straight away if it's good, it's good. It's a real skill then to as a DJ to raise your audience to get those people back on the dance floor. You've got to know your stuff. Yeah, that's 100% Like, yeah, definitely, if a DJ doesn't know what he's playing, or, you know, gets up there and, and hasn't got the right tools or, or, or know how to work the decks or anything like that they can fail just so easily. So yeah, it's just it takes it takes a big skill to, to do it. And yeah, a lot, a lot of guys out there are good at it are really good at it. And you don't actually seem or I don't know that many DJs that are right into producing though, even though like most of them are just you know, they just do their weekend DJs and stuff like that. So DJ gigs, so you know, you you don't like the music you're making now you're doing that all from your house, and you're working with people all around the world, which is really exciting. Yeah, 100% the music I make now is basically a collection of music that I made probably around about 2016. And I'm still making music now. I just a lot of the stuff that I made, I put a lot of time and effort into it. So I seem to like go back and revisit a lot of the older stuff that I made. And just keep working on on that. Yeah, so now i i Just jump online, I've got a master over in America that I use. And he's put me in touch with a fair few people to collaborate with singers, the Charlotte law crews from the UK and n a fair few other artists that I that I just work with. And just mainly for vocals. Yeah. And it's just really fun. It's just fun to sort of have a bit of a hobby and a passion for music and still be able to, you know, put something out there at the end of the day and have a bit of fun with it. So yeah, that's my sort of main thing is just as long as you're having fun with music, that's the main thing for me. Absolutely. You've got a young family. Tell us about your your children over there in Victoria. So I've got a young boy named Fletcher. He is coming up to three years old. And I've got a little girl Lexie and she's around one and a half our Lexus she is so yeah, we give her we just call it Lexi. So she loves that. So, yeah. keeping you busy at that age, the two of them run around. Yeah, they sure they sure. Are they sure are they they they cause plenty of headaches but they both really good kids and yeah, we love them to death. Yeah, so how do you go then finding time to to get stuck into your music and create when you've got little people? Do you sort of try and do it at night or weekends? How do you make it work? This is basically my time now it's like minute they're the kids go to bed at sort of, you know, seven o'clock, eight o'clock. As I come up here I've got my own sort of studio up in what I call the schoolhouse, it's like an old converted schoolhouse. So it's just got like, a bed for friends to stay in. And it's just got all my computer equipment and stuff like that up here. So I just sort of come up here and do my thing. You know, it's it definitely has been challenging, I must admit, like coming from you know, just having a partner and being able to do music and that whenever you wanted to to then only doing it at night time you've got to try and really, you know focus and yeah, try and make the time that you've got, you know, make it work. Yeah, yeah, make the most of those limited little slots liberal hours. So you also work you also run a farm I believe so. You're you're pretty much burning the candle at both ends. Really? Yeah, yeah. So we've got a three and a half 1000 acre farm over here in Kassadin. And me and my dad work here on the farm. And we've got like, roughly set like we're in about 350 head of cattle, and so maybe closer to 400 and, and two and a half 1000 sheep here on our farm, so, so it's extremely busy here during the weekdays plus, up in New South Wales, our my brother, my older brother, he has his farm up there, which is around about 13,000 acres. So we used to split our time a lot in between the properties and work both sides of it, but now we tend to sort of stay one end and the other end of my dad sort of floats in between the property. So yeah, we're pretty flat out over here all the time. So, yeah, absolutely. And it will be challenging then to try and, you know, with the kids, you wouldn't actually be able to sort of float between the two properties that easily when you've got your Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 100% it's made it made a lot different. Now having that having a family and stuff like that, it just changes things a lot. You know, so but you know, that's just the part of having a family I guess you've got to make you got to make changes yourself as well. clincher is actually in one of your music videos recently. So I do I do a lot of my own music videos. And I've been doing video for a long time, probably just as long as I've been doing music. So that's one thing I've sort of thought about doing is like, just just do it, just make the video yourself have a bit of fun with it and make it yourself. And they they just love it. They they love being a part of anything. And then when you go back like, you know, if you put if you put TV on and YouTube or tractors on, then you know he gets really grumpy. So that so when he gets on YouTube, and then he sees himself on there, he thinks that's the best thing in the world. Like he thinks it's the funniest thing ever. And he will watch it repetitively all day. And Lexi, well, she just loves it, so she can't get enough of watching him or mommy on there. So they love it. So the I'm going to try and incorporate that the kids into as many of the music videos as I can just have a bit of fun with it. Like I was thinking about sort of getting something, you know, professionally done up and I'm just like, what, what's the hell, you know, like, just just have a bit of fun with it and do it yourself. It's always like, always think that if you have a crack at it yourself and it comes out real raw, it sometimes makes it give it a more feel to it, then then something that's over produced or anything like that, like, you know, you'll give your fuel footage to somebody else. And they'll wrap their hands all over it and, and make it glossy and everything but it doesn't seem as raw as as sometimes. stuff. So, yeah, we just had had a lot of fun making the video for DJ bitch. And yeah, we filmed it on our property. And yeah, we always had this idea to do it. But it was just really an idea. And let's let's just do it. And we had this footage. And it was it had just been sitting there and I said to laser I said we've got to finish it with like half it was shot. And I just sort of started putting it together and it just sort of slotted in really well. And yeah, before too long, I think, you know, the film clip I think was up to about 6000 views at last I looked it was it was quite a shock actually, but it's a good fun. It's a good fun video clip. So, you know, it was just a bit of fun and the kids love it. And like I said they just can't get enough of watching themselves. So it's really good. It is a great video and yeah, I didn't realize that you made that yourself. Congratulations because that is awesome. Yeah, now I do all the all the video on myself and then I get back to the computer here and and produce it all myself. So yeah, it's just fun. Yeah. So you used a drone in that video is that you do that yourself? Yeah, I got my I got my own drone. And so the drone shoots in full 1080 H HD and I use the GoPro as well to get mostly all the shots on the film clip because pretty much a GoPro these days, I just got some of the best, you know, the best pixels as well. They just come out amazing clear and you can just sort of go through and edit up your videos afterwards. So yeah, drone stuff. I've had a drone for a number of years now and yeah, I love love flying them and just yeah, really fun. You kids obviously know that you do your music is that it's something that you you love sharing with the kids, it's important for you to involve them in, in what you're doing. Yeah, for sure my kids really love music. We got a thing at our house that we just love to put on music, like around tea time, or Saturday mornings and stuff like that, it's always music going on at our place. And we just yeah, we just try and involve them as much as we can, you know, whether it's listening to my music or, or listening to other people's music, and they love it, they love dancing, and they just love being kids and, and as adults, mainly, so we both love it as well. So, yeah, that just we just make sure that they've got heaps of arounds, and you know, they're not too scared to have a bit of fun and dance around the living room. Here in my studio, I've actually got a toy toy room here for when so like, on a Saturday, if I'm, if I want to do music or anything like that, I bring the kids up here with me, and they've got their own toy room, and they'll, they'll play toys up here and, you know, push around the boats and the cars and stuff while I'm up here, you know, playing on the computer. So yeah, it's a really sort of fun environment for him. And we don't I definitely don't just run away from the whole family to go and do music. It's just, it's just, you know, Dad's up here, the schoolhouse, and the kids will come up here and, and, you know, they'll ride their bikes around in here and have a bit of fun as well. So yeah, definitely, they're very much included you seen do you find now have with the kids in your life, that the way that you write your music has changed at all? Yeah, like the, like you see the world a bit differently? Maybe anything like that? Yeah, 100%, I'd say, because my music is, you know, electronic and different. I'm just sort of really trying to create a vibe, as much for like, the, the kids and stuff, it definitely hasn't really changed my sort of style as much. Yeah, the only thing that that really has changed is that just not being able to have that flexibility time to you know, just just go and you will just have more time without having the kids and stuff like that you would just end up having a lot more time up yet up your sleeve to sit down and really concentrate on something, and you just win now doing music, you sorta have got to be in the right mindset, or else you just don't get it down. And if you not, if it just doesn't flow, it, you're wasting your time. So yeah, I will, I'll come up and play around with tracks like that. And it's just not working. It's just definitely it's not working. So you just stop and you'll come back another time, but it's it having children and music, you just got to really make time for your passion, I think. And yes, to having having children and stuff like that. It's, it's yeah, it's a great thing. And it's been awesome, but there's definitely challenges involved. And I think if I had children a lot, like, like, I'm 40 Now, if I had them when I was younger, I don't think I would have coped as well. That's one thing I don't really want. I'm glad I had children when I was older. I'm pretty, like I think I'm very selfish myself sometimes, like not now. But I was would have been when I was younger, a lot more selfish or and wanted to sort of achieve more. Now I've got that mindset that I've just don't don't really care anymore. Like I just want to have fun. So but um, but now, you know, been a bit older and stuff like that. I'm just a lot more chilled and just don't really care. And just like I said, I think for myself, if I just have music as a as a passion and a hobby, it breaks down those walls. It's just like, you know, if you achieve something, it's great, but you're not really focused on you've got it, ah, I've got to make the charts or I've got to sell music or anything like that. If people want to listen to it. That's fantastic. And it's awesome. And if you wanted to get shows, that's great. But if you really focused on that and it doesn't happen, it just breaks your heart all the time. And you just end up bearing yourself I think Do you just want to I just want to put stuff out there that I'm really proud of. And, you know, when I released my last album, I had had a lot of messages of people saying, oh my god, that song was just amazing or that was so great. And that's what it comes down to. For me, it's like, just those moments where people say to that, so I think it's really big. Shout out to people that, you know, tell that artists that you really liked their music, it makes a difference to people like it makes people be more productive. And they want to actually, you know, they want to keep pursuing their dreams. And I think today's age too, like with artists, were were artists and musicians and everything that's gone through the whole COVID thing. You know, they need you more than ever right now. People really need to stand up and say, hey, you know what? I'm gonna buy that CD. I love that tune. Keep doing what you're doing. And you know, stay positive because it only takes one person to say, oh, you know your musics crap. And you know, you suck, all of a sudden, that person just shuts down and then they don't want to do it anymore. So you know, as long as you know, since I've been doing music, I haven't even had one person say you, you suck or your shit. It's just like, everything in the music scene, I think is so positive. But we're just going through such a shit time with COVID that no guy out there's work and the poor old industry, music is industry is suffering. The venue's are dying up, they need you more than ever, right now. People, people like myself, anyone out there who's putting music together still is they need you. So, you know, the people out there listening and buying records, you know, they're awesome. That's what we, we do it for. So, you know, yeah. That's so well said. Yeah, that's the thing. And I think big Yeah, because we can't say, the audience face to face because we can't make those, you know, personal connections, it is important for people, if, you know, if you like someone's music, send them a message. And, you know, it's just that little, that little bit of connection, it's just enough to brighten someone up and, and keep them going. And like you said, it's, it's that spark that gets them going. So, yeah, and it's nothing is a stew it's not, I like appreciate so many different styles of music, like I listened to, you know, so much different styles. And even if it's not the general genre that you listen to, you know, just just let them know that that piece of music that that was awesome, you did an awesome job on that, you know, your vocal was fantastic on that. Just just let them know, I think it's like, that's the most positive thing I think with the with the music scene, the artists get behind other artists, even if you got a small majority of fans out there and you know, I don't consider myself having many fans at all but the small group that have that I have around me that they definitely don't shy away with saying hey, that's that tunes. Awesome, great job that's that's a sweet tune, keep getting maybe keep you know, doing that sort of style. It's a love it. So that's and that's what gives me a bit of momentum and stuff and just just to have a bit of fun with it too. So yeah, but it's definitely a struggle out there. And if you know if someone was doing this job at the moment full time and and you know looking for those gigs every weekend I really feel for those people at the moment I you know, it breaks my heart to to see how the music industry is going to recover from this because I know a lot of artists I know that the artists Charlotte lock the, the girl that featured on my album, she she ended up going back to work at a big company and I murder message not long ago and I said you know, how's how's the music going? And she was like, there's no time you know, I've got to get back to work and there's no no gigs. So and she you know, I couldn't never think this girl not seeing again because her voice is so amazing. And it just broke my heart to hear that you know this girl can't get any more gigs and she's had to go back to the office and start working again and slaving away to the man you know you mentioned briefly before Lacey your wife She must be very supportive of of what you're doing and helping you a lot. She's very supportive. She that she loves that she loves being involved. She's you know, probably my biggest fan I every track that I do or take part in in any small way. She's probably the first person who gets it is on that track. So I give it to her and and she'll listen and I'll say what do you think of this? And you know, what do you think of this and she'll be like, oh, yeah, I love it. I love it. I love this bit and you So that Yeah, cuz we sort of feed off each other a lot. And yeah, it's great to have somebody supportive that by your side or that, you know, is prepared to sit up all night while you're at three o'clock in the morning, you know, bouncing ideas off somebody overseas about some track that's getting mastered at you know, some ungodly hour or you know me waking up in the middle of night con I've got such a great idea for a video clip. So, she Yeah, she's really great and very supportive and yeah, yeah, I love her a lot. Yeah, and she got got a little bit of a go in the video as well. The music video. Yeah, she was up there dancing with flat chi and it was quite funny. She said I'll go up and dance with which I said yeah, get up there and have a dad so yeah, it was good. Mid say I loved the little little jacket that he had on too. Yeah, he's gonna wear that northern all the film clips we've decided he loves his he loves that jacket. He calls it his DJ check jacket so he really thinks it's really cool so yeah what if he got on at the moment or anything coming up that you want to share? I've got one track that I'm working on at the moment. I've just I've got another girl that's just doing some vocals for me for this track. It's, it's called creatures. It's one you've heard lately. It's like I really wanted to make something that was sort of like really on that that preset vibe that really pumped up sort of idea and just it didn't really have to mean anything. It was just sort of a like really pumped up track. Yeah, that's what I'm working on at the moment. So I just sort of had that mastered but let's come back and and why can't I just need something else to sort of give it a bit of an edge so I thought I'll try it with a female vocals. I'm just waiting for those vocals to come back and I'll put in the track and yeah, see how that turns out let me lose a happy move. I don't know what to do. Everything about my situation is a winner loser. I know the feeling of people when they don't do any bad. I made a choice to ignore my movie Jason bash. What is exact feeling when I listen to a couple of podcasts before? And he the people what they were saying about you know, and you know that they have music? And then that was on the backburner? Because they've got so much time, it's what happens. I think when you have a family, it's like so much gets put on the backburner though, doesn't it? It's like, it's incredible, that, you know, you've got all this, all this passion and all this art that you want to get out there and want to push out into the world. And all of a sudden, you can't because you're locked down with the, with your family and doing your doing the stuff that's, that's, that's important to them. And then all of a sudden, you can't you can't get it out. And then it's sort of built up, it really is built up, especially if they're, if they're, if it's a person that's putting out stuff constantly, and has a family and all of a sudden that sort of just kind of it's it's hard it's just about expressing yourself, I think and as long as people can keep getting it out there. That's the main thing. And you know, I imagine for women, especially having kids, it's so important to nurture those kids and you seem to be putting everything into the children I know from seeing it firsthand, through my wife that she puts everything into our kids and, and your wonder like now I've you know, she's focused on going back to studying more at nursing and, and, and that's something that she's passionate about and she loves so we make time to fit her you know, things that she needs to do to into into her life things but it's such a thing is like you know, when you when if you don't have an outlet somewhere or a passion and you've got nowhere to you know to do it, it builds up and you know, probably can end up being the falling down of your marriage or anything like that because you just got no outlet and you feel like you're locked up with the children and just having this dull life that you you know, that just ends up crashing around around you. If it doesn't have you don't have an outlet Thanks so much for coming on today. Like it's been great to chat and all the best with whatever you've got coming up soon. I can't wait to hear some new tracks from me. No worries. Thanks, Alison. I really appreciate coming on the podcast and yeah, I wish you all the success for it. It's sounds fantastic so far. And yet, let's hope you keep going with it in the future and it keeps coming out and bringing positive messages with it. Thanks for coming on today. Adam. It's a pleasure to have you join on this very special episode. I am stoked. It's I think it's important to to open up these conversations. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So can you tell us about your connection with music, how you got into playing and all the amazing things that you've done over the years? All right, well, how long have we got? Look, I first got into music fully, I guess in in Mount Gambier when I was a student at at Grant High School. And that kind of led on to coming up to Adelaide to to study jazz and as a saxophonist, and from that point, I I kind of I don't know, I just had a setback and and let the you know, let the music guide where I was going and I've done all kinds of things in my life since then, musically from spending three and a half years on cruise ships. playing in the orchestra is on ships to you know, touring with with bands around around the country and around the world and playing in make millions of recordings and as I guess a freelance saxophonist, but also a lot of writing as well heaps of writing for small ensembles and larger ensembles. Currently, I'm I'm writing for the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and have done multiple times in the last few years. I've written major works for New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and orchestra Wellington as well. I've traveled the world with my multi instrumental looping, improvised show. Yeah, I didn't know like heaps, heaps and heaps and heaps of stuff. And this. This stuff happened. I mean, you know, a lot of it happened before I was a father. But there's still yeah, there's still a lot of it that still exists. Just it just it just looks a little different now. Yeah, for sure. So you said multi instrumentalist? How many instruments can you play? Well, I own a lot more than I can play. But I mean, I guess the woodwinds are my first go to so you know, all of the saxophones clarinet, flute. Other flutes like Native American flute and Bansuri. But then, you know, piano has always been a big part of my, my sort of creativity. And the tools for writing sort of come from the piano. I play guitar, bass, drums and percussion. Yeah, and other bits and pieces. We eat instruments from around the world. But yeah, I guess you know, I call myself a multi instrumentalist, but you know, I'm I'm a saxophone player first. So you just you have a passion for just like trying out new things and just seeing what happens and finding new ways to do things. Yeah, I do I do because I mean you know musics music and the, you know, the, the fundamentals of music remain no matter what instrument you play. And so like I, you know, I play drums. Like, I play the saxophone, I play, you know, the nose flute, in the same way that I was, I would play the bass, it's just, you know, it's the same music but just a different different technique and a different, a different voice that you're using, but inside it's still the same the same music Let's go. And you went to New Zealand recently I saw on your Instagram. I did. And that was pretty lucky. I had been working on a on a saxophone concerto that was that was written for me that I had collaborated with as well in the composition process. And yeah, so I've been working on it for a long time. And I got up to a point where it was was ready, and I was ready to go over and work with this orchestra and, you know, do the performance and recording as well. And then, you know, some, some, some COVID business was starting to drop around the place. And I luckily, I got over, you know, before anything happened. And while I was over there, the Victorian outbreak sort of happened. And I luckily changed my flights earlier to go through Auckland and Adelaide rather than Melbourne. If I'd gone through Melbourne, I would have yet I would have been stuck. But yeah, I got back a day before locked down in South Australia. So I'm very lucky, I got it done. Because I think, you know, I mean, I'm just so used to cancellations. Now the last 18 months has just been just one project lost after another. And I've got used to that kind of dynamic that it creates creatively. But if this if this show was canceled, I would have been pretty gutted. It's like an emotional roller coaster isn't it really is really tough. And, you know, the deeper we get into this, you know, like I'm understanding more and more about my, my creative process and what, what I need and what keeps me buoyant. And a lot of a lot of these sorts of situations that are occurring around us are, in a lot of ways, they're kind of they're they're sort of drowning my my normally buoyant kind of attitudes and and my direction that I normally kind of take so and that's just purely because we can't, you know, we can't dream money we can dream. That's it, we can't fully turn those dreams into, into a reality without all of this uncertainty is attached to it. So it's yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, for sure. It's like, you want to have ideas and goals and dreams, but you're sort of like, well, what's the point? Because it's not going to happen anyway, like, you feel that it's crushed before? Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying not to get to that point of like, what's the point? Because, because the you know, in so many ways, the point is, it's not in the delivery, it's in the creation. And I hear, but it's hard, though, it's hard. Because, you know, you've taken, you know, you take away one fundamental part of the, of the project, which is the delivery. And it's very hard to stay focused. Without letting that that idea of, of uncertainty creep in, you know, it does definitely affect affect the creation effect ever every level of it. Really. Yeah, absolutely. Have you been able to do much like work online with your music or you found other ways to be able to create? Yeah, look back in the, like, you know, the first sort of wave, I guess you could call it I did a few online performances, which went really, really well. Like, I was surprised actually, that the community that that kind of, you know, opted in was super supportive. And, you know, I could I could see the comment thread just going crazy while I was performing and it was just, it was just really nice. I'm, I'm planning on doing another couple of those in the in the coming weeks as well. Just like basically for my my friends over in, you know, New South Wales and Victoria and just to give them something to consume. But aside from that, I've been really lucky that I've had some I've had some composition projects that have really kept me kept me going with with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and, and also, some other, you know, work with, with a small ensemble, the Ben Todd quartet, with Ben Todd, who's a drummer, Paul white and James Marlowe and that those two projects have really kind of kept me kept me going. Yeah, but it's hard. So you mentioned a little bit before, before you had two kids, what did you music life look like at that stage? Where you're doing it full time? Oh, yeah, it's there. You know, there's, there's no doubt that once you have kids, the, you know, that changes, you know, and for me, I, I kind of made a, made a decision before we had our first daughter, that my life was going to change. Okay, and so, what what I had in the past will not, I will never have that again. And that, that led to me really thinking about priorities and this at this moment in my life, like what is important, and it really like, I mean, it was, it was just so clear that the most important part of my life right now is is, is my family and creating those, those irreversibly positive relationships with my, with my children and with my partner as well. And so, yeah, everything changed. I was doing so much stuff, creatively, and I was definitely absolutely in control of my day of my week of my hour, there was a point before we had kids, where, you know, there was quite a while where I would on a Sunday night, look at my week, and I printed out these calendars with you know, from from 5am to midnight, basically. And I would, I would schedule everything that was happening in the week, and I would just sit there for an hour or so on a Sunday night and, and just put it all in including, like hangtime including breaks, including just like okay, so on Thursday, I'm doing nothing. And then and I'll just let it happen and so you know, my go to the art gallery, I might go for a swim or whatever, you know, Thursday's Friday, but then all of the other days I would like totally just go like right this is best case scenario. And then you know, I'd you know, on Monday night I would I would look at it and go see what's happening Tuesday and go like no let's call or I could change this change that so it was a very, very productive incredibly and then when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent if you are completely into the next few years being you know, in a state of creative upheaval, if you commit to that then you know it it changes it changes everything you know, you can't it's not possible to to have those those sorts of positive relationships without making sacrifices and you know, and I hope I'm not sounding negative here like because I I'm very positive about and I'm very happy about the choices I make because will have made and continue to make because I have had you know I've had discussions with with people who have gone the other way where they have followed the path of their career and their and their music or their art and it's it's caused the you know, the downfall of their family and that's that's that's long term. Okay, that's that's an absolute long term thing that that everybody regrets I'm sure and so so yeah, it's it's I don't know I've just gone I'm going around in so many circles here in different different directions. But you know what I'm saying like you've just got to make those sacrifices for the good of your of your of your village you know of that that beautiful thing that we call family or let's see yeah, so you had you had a conscious think about it I suppose of what what your life was gonna look like and made a decision for yourself. But can I if I can add to that Yeah. We also with with my partner Giorgio like we had really fantastic conversations about my career and about my art and about what I need, because I my needs are very clear like I need to be creating I need to be doing something musically and and the importance of that and so you know, the conversation just even having a conversation about the the importance of art of music and being creative in my life. actually gave me more room to to step away from that for a while. And know that when the time was right, I can, I can commit to it again, I can just go straight back into it. So and, and it was funny because in the first, in her first year of life, I wrote basically 90 minutes of orchestral music for this concert, and I have no memory of writing it. Like, I don't know how I did it, but we made it work. And there was a bunch of projects that happened in that, you know, in those first kind of couple of years, because it's like, we had these conversations, we were totally open about, what, you know, what I wanted to do, but, but most importantly, what I was capable of first, firstly, as a, as a, as a musician, as an artist, but then secondly, as a father, you know, like, so it's a constant balance between the two. And, you know, sure, it tips out of balance, sometimes, sometimes I'm way too busy. And, you know, I'm relying too much on, on family, and, you know, George's parents, and, you know, to kind of, you know, give us a bit of help, but there, but then other times, I find that man, I haven't picked up my horn in two weeks, you know, yeah, but it's just constantly constantly kind of in flux. bar out communication is key, all because, you know, like, one, kind of, you know, 30 minute conversation can make the next six months, like, so much easier, because you're, you're honest about your needs, and you're honest about about the capabilities, that you have to be able to kind of get to the finish line with these with the projects, but, but at the same time, it's like, you start that dialogue around, around how it's going to affect the family, because, because that's the big change. Now, it's not just about me, you know, like, I, you know, with my partner, we, you know, she used to love it when I went away when I did, because they said a lot of international touring a lot, a lot of touring around the place, and she'd be like, awesome, I've got some time to myself, it's fantastic. And I used to love being away as well, it's just so fun, so fantastic. And, but then all of a sudden, it's just like, it's no longer about, like me, it's like, it's like it's you, me and us all together, you know, and, and if that's the, this, the, if that's central to your to every conversation, then you actually end up getting a better result, like everyone gets a better result from from being open and, and communicative and clear with with your needs. And also being realistic. I love doing this stuff. Because, you know, we, we need to talk, we need to talk about this stuff. Like I feel every time I talk about my my parenting style and how it aligns with my, with my art, I just, I feel good, I feel really positive. And I feel you know, and at times where, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of negativity surrounding our lives. And, you know, I think I think just just talking this stuff through reminds, reminds me that, that, you know, this too shall pass. And, and I will get to a point where I'll get a tour, you know, somewhere and I'll I will say to my four year old or their, you know, your might be six at that point, Hey, you want to come on the road with me for a couple of weeks, you know, like, I know, that's going to happen, you know, I know that's going to happen. But yeah. And that's because it's because of the sort of the choices I'm making now. And and waiting, letting letting life be be the thing that that that steers me, rather than my creativity, if you know what I mean. It's like you're, in a way you're in a sort of a holding pattern, got all this amazing stuff, you know, you've got to look forward to because of how you've set, set your life up and set things up with your family. So it's really positive when you look forward and it's salutely and it's a bit of a slow burn. You know, you can't expect it to happen straightaway. And I mean, sometimes I expect I expect things to happen far too soon. And you know, I've just got to kind of To try and try and sort of, you know, lose some of that disappointment, knowing that it will, and knowing that, you know, it will be easier because I mean, we've got a four year old and a one year old at the moment. And so we're, we're in it at the moment, we're in it deep. And, you know, and it's no, no word of a lie that the these last, you know, four years of our lives, it's the hardest hardest we've ever had to deal with. You know, you're just, you're just totally forced to your absolute capacity and then some and but then you get out to the other side, and just be like, Well, that was intense. That was intense. And, and then, yeah, like, it just, it's, there's nothing like, these first few years to, to really kind of remind you what it's like to be a human, or what it takes to be human. Yeah. And also, I think it gives you a sense of how much you're actually capable of that you probably didn't realize, because I've been forced to these extremes before. That's actually like, you can discover a lot of stuff about yourself that you didn't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But then on the other end of the spectrum, like I did not know, that I was capable of, of having so much love for someone else. Yeah. You know, I like the love I like I'm tearing up here. love I have for my children, is it? I don't know anything else like it? Or I actually know nothing else like it. And, you know, when when I walk in the door, you know, the half an hour ago, and I hear my one year old going? Daddy data, data, and it just like just crawling as fast as you can to get to me? Like, it's just like, far out like, what? What, what show have I ever done? That is as good as that. You know? It's the best and I think, yeah, I I hope that my kids realize that. I mean, I know they do. Yeah, I don't have to tell them that I love them so much. You know? Because I mean, I do every moment I can, but they I know they can feel it. Yeah, your actions, your behaviors are showing that that? Yeah, and I'm sure, I'm sure that that the the art that I'm creating at the moment is is, is is in some way guided by by that love? Hmm, that's something I'm interested to that I'd like to chat with people about, have you found that, that change in your life, that being a parent, and that all the changes in the intensities that go with it? How does that How has that come out in your work, you find it reflected in what you're creating? I think I've written probably the most beautiful music that I could write through thinking about my, my daughters. One of them was when my, my eldest she look, we would have been about maybe six months old, and just screaming at three o'clock in the morning, holding her just just absolutely the at the end of my, you know, of what I could give her and just sitting at the piano and just started playing these arpeggios. And she just stopped. And the you know, I thought, Oh, this is cool. And so I just kept playing and kept sort of doing this, these these, you know, very simple arpeggios and, and yeah, everything changed. And then I like I remembered it once he was asleep, and I just sat down at like, what at four o'clock in the morning, whatever it is and wrote out this piece of music and, and to this day, it's like it comes to her and it calms me and and then last year I wrote her a saxophone concerto that was it was inspired by COVID and how the COVID pandemic was was developing and then halfway through and in the second movement. I just it was when when, you know our youngest was born. And and yeah, it's I think it's the Yeah, it's up there with absolutely some of the most beautiful music I've made just because I I had her in my mind and I had her absolute kind of beauty and and it just it just came through in the notes and like music that never would have existed without without these experiences and I think I think the the beauty comes out of like The pain and suffering as well that you go through having having children and, and, and that loss of that loss of your old life because it is, you know, I miss it. I'm not gonna lie, I miss it so much. It's like a mourning process you have to go go through the lonely because and I mean if you if someone says no I don't miss my old life I you know, this is this is this defines me now it's just like, that's, that's crap, I don't believe that for one second for one second and you know what it's, I'm allowed to miss it. Because I miss it so much because it was so awesome. You know, but because it was so awesome that has turned me into a different person. And so it's like, well, you know, all of those experiences still exist, they exist in who I am right now. And all of those experiences still exist in in, in the stories that I'm going to tell my, my kids about, you know, the things that I used to do. And but then, you know, I don't I'm not saying that I'm going to be a hermit and just a father for the rest of my life, I know that things are going to change, things are going to get easier. And I'm going to get back on the road, I'm going to get back into doing more stuff and more full time. But at the moment, I've made that choice I've made that deal to be to be there to be present. What does your days look like? Now? I mean, obviously, you're quite busy with a one year old. But when do you find the time to be able to do what you need to do with your music? Well, so we've, we've found an amazing childcare center that both actually both my my kids go to now because Georgia, my partner, she went back to work three weeks ago, three days a week. So that's, that's been amazing. So the eldest goes three days a week, and the one year old, she goes twice a week. So I've effectively got two to three days of creative time now. It's excellent. And I have no idea how to use it. Like I'm telling you I'm at the moment like I'm, I've just been thrusted all of this time. And also because you know, it's a pretty, it's a pretty crazy world out there at the moment with COVID. And we were just committing to me doing some more travel, I'd meant to be playing three weeks at the Sydney Opera House in September, even though there hasn't been kind of publicly canceled. So and I was meant to be in Darwin this week for a festival. And of course, they've just coming out of lockdown. And so I've effectively got about six weeks of free time now as well, which has made our lives so much easier as parents because I wasn't going to be away for four or five weeks. Which I was really anxious about, just because of the implications of the home life, you know, and how Georgia could manage me we've got amazing supports from her, her parents. My folks still live in that Gambia so they can't, they can't help out in a physical sense. Yeah, so but but with this time that I've got, I'm in a real creative funk, hey, like, I've got all these projects that I want to, to embark on. I've been I've been constantly kind of dreaming stuff and writing stuff down. But to actually get to that next level, I'm finding it quite difficult. And I think there's a few things that are that are, like impacting my normal kind of man, one my normal direction or my normal flow. And first and foremost, it's, it's that idea of what's the point? Yeah, are they actually going to happen? Like, you know, but I have to keep reminding myself that it's not, you know, the view is worth the climb. And so it's that whole kind of like, okay, the, the actual process is what, what I get the most amount of energy out of, you know, but then also, I mean, this is this is another can of worms, social media, like I'm, I'm absolutely 100% addicted to social media. And as as we all are, you know if anyone's got Facebook or Instagram or Twitter on their phone, you're addicted immediately because those algorithms are so great. They suck you in. So and also sort of not seeking out bad news. But just like, looking at the news websites just to see what what bad things happened next, you know what I mean. And that's had a profound effect on my, on my outlook on life, like I'm, at my core, I'm an incredibly positive and optimistic person. And I'm just feeling now that, you know, the, the, the weight of the world is getting a bit too much for me. And, and so I'm actually I've made the decision this morning, I'm going to have a bit of a break from social media, just because I've just found myself in some situations online, that have been quite negative, and have sort of kept me up at night. And I don't need that. So I think if I can, you've got a one year old to keep you up at night. You don't need anything else came. Yeah. I know. And so, yeah, it's, it's a great, it's a great time to be having this discussion. Because, you know, the, the fact of the matter is that, you know, I've got all this time, and I'm being super creative. But actually, the reality is, like, I've got all this time, and I have no freaking idea how to use it. And that's the reality. And that's, that's something that we need to all kind of embrace. I think. You can't be super creative all the time. Like, this might be like a healing time that you just need for yourself, you know, to, I mean, a lot of people I think some people like hate lock downs and hate whatever it is, but I know some people I've spoken to that are enjoying being locked away, because the world is so proud. And just being with the people they love and with the family that they need around them. I know that it's putting a spin on a negative, but, you know, cocooning time for you, and then you know, the butterfly will come out, you know, sometimes, Oh, absolutely. And I do track that I was forced into a, you know, physical and creative locked down last year was pretty, like, the timing was pretty amazing. Because, because we were about to have a kid, our second kid, and it was like, Okay, we're home. So what else are we going to do? We are going to, we're going to be here as a quartet. Like, who can go and deep was it was, it was fantastic. And I think, for me, it's yeah, I'm still having trouble getting out of that zone. Because I loved it. Like, I, I loved the fact that we were together so much. And that I'd made that choice four years ago, when we know when we had our first that it's like, this is this is a moment in time that I cannot get back. And any opportunity I can take to connect is going to bear fruit in the future. Yeah, and I mean, I've got some, there's some role models in my life that have that have been guiding me as well, like really strong, strong men and strong fathers that have really helped me through making these decisions as well. You know, and, yeah, and so the deeper you get into that mode of deep connection, and parenting, the harder it is to get out of it as well. And I think that's a part of it, as well, like i Yes, I've been incredibly creative in this time, and these last four years. But I have no idea how I think, I think, yeah, necessity, I think deadlines are the only things that have actually kept me focused. I didn't have a deadline. I wouldn't be doing anything. I actually did write the other day. So I'm on Instagram, someone said that deadlines are really good for musicians, because they make you get off your acid. diester Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like, I feel like I need to get back into that kind of idea. Because I mean, for me, you know, so many of my bands that I would start were like, basically, we would just be hanging out, you know, mates hanging out talking about music, had this idea for a band, and then all of a sudden we book a gig and get a t shirt designed. And before we've even written a note so it's like you know, like that's yeah, let's Let's book the gig. Let's get the vibe. This is what it's gonna be like and like, bam, here it is. And yeah, then go. Okay, so what is it going to be? Who's playing well? I think I need a bit more than added my life nothing like a reduced stress to get you going. mentioned that you've had some really good role models around you positive and negative, I suppose you'd say things that you you think, Oh, actually, I don't want to do that. Yeah, there's lessons everywhere. You know, I think that where where we go so well, is through communication. And, you know, some some interactions I've had with other fathers in the past have been quite insightful just in the just in the way that they describe their relationships, you know, with their partners, you know, like, just using that, that idea of, you know, are you lucky, your missus have, you know, let you out of the house, that sort of thing. And so it's like, man, if you're gonna use that kind of language with me, I doubt you've had, you've had a really kind of, you know, deep conversation about your needs both both of their needs. And so, you know, I, I've kind of learnt from friends that have had children before me that, that communication is key to being a great parent, so communication with your other half, because sometimes it'll be, you know, it feels like weeks, we're living in the same house, but sometimes it feels like weeks that we've actually connected, like, within Georgia, it's like, full on and, you know, and that's, that's a scary, that's a scary cycle that can be, that can be created, you know, to the point where you, you feel like, you don't know each other anymore. And like, and so communication is just so important, you know, communicating when things are going well, as well. Or not just when things are going badly, you know, and when things are difficult, it's like let's, let's celebrate these these moments of, of Claire clarity and, and enjoying our life or new life together, you know? Yeah, so I've definitely, I've definitely taken that from from my friends. You know, James Brown, who's a guitarist, one of my best friends here. Yeah. Him and his partner and their family. They've they've been a big influence, as has Ross McHenry, who's another fantastic musician, incredibly prolific creator, with three kids, I don't know how he does incredible, but he's been a massive kind of beacon for me. But also John Sophos, who's a composer in New South, in New South Wales, in New Zealand, who's my, one of my favorite people in the world, and, you know, he's, he's got adult children now. And, you know, he, he came and stayed with us, you know, when our, when our eldest was about kind of one and a half ish. And we would just sort of sit up the frontman her and just chat and just spend time together. And, and he said to me, that I, that he could see himself in me in the decisions that he made when he was a young parent, to put his his career and creativity on the back burner for a while and really hook in with the kid. He's now so close with his kids that are adults, you know, and, and he said that the stuff that you do now is it's fertilizer. You know, it's, it is lifelong. It's a lifelong connection. And, and you've only got one chance to create that connection. And, and he just said, Look, I'm so happy with what you're doing. Because he's, he's reaping the benefits of it now, with these amazing relationships with these incredible human beings. I know both of his, his his Well, kids so well, as well. And they're amazing humans, you know. And so I look at him and just think, right, it might be hard now, but I know that what's happening what's to come is pretty, pretty magnificent. That's it, you're sowing the seeds to reap in the field. And I truly believe in that, that idea of we only get one chance at this, you know, I've got so many chances to write a new song. I've got so many chances to, to start a new band to you know, A book a tour, whatever, you know, whatever creative thing, I've got so many chances, and if one chance disappears, then there'll be another one. But right now, this is my only chance to be to be that that kind of person that I truly want to be as a father that, that, you know, absolutely. Connected Absolutely. Kind of engaged. Kind of human around them. And, and you know, silly as well, you got to be silly. Get down on the floor got to get down on the floor with them and play. Yes, that's just so important. Yeah. And again, going back to the social media thing, I think I, I'm using it as a bit of a kind of advice, I think. And it's starting to creep into my, my relationship with my kids as well, like, I'll be talking with them, but I'll be looking at FACP. At the same time, I'm like, Whoa, what's going on? I need to stop this wall. So I don't I don't drink anymore. I stopped drinking five years ago. This is before we even started kind of talking about really having kids and while we've been talking about them, but actually, you know, trying, which I'm happy about. And so I don't have to have like alcohol to fall back on. which so many of us do, like and I can see the power of alcohol as well to have a when you just want to have a nice glass of wine at the end of the day. You know, alcohol works? Absolutely. So, so I don't have that. And so is that why you cut it out? Because you could see your alignment team? Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard. It's been the hardest thing to maintain. But also, I'm feeling really good about it. Yeah. Good. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, right now, what is it? It's it's one one o'clock in the afternoon and I'm I'm actually drinking a beer right now. It's a It's so I'm still drinking but it's just non alcoholic beer and yeah. Thanks, great. Do rejoice, and celebrate when when Georgia, you know, has a swig on the tequila bottle. It's like it's pretty cool. It's just like, oh, yeah, you needed that you needed that I did want to ask you about your music around the children, particularly your older daughter. Do you play your instruments around her? It's like she, she's into your music. Here's how it goes. Okay, I sit down at the piano. I play one note, Daddy, stop. I sing a note. No, Daddy, stop. Yeah, it's been. It's going well, yeah. But she's decided that she likes being in the same room as me when I'm practicing the saxophone. Which I get, I've usually I've had to go to I've got it. I'm lucky enough to have a studio space as well. And so I'll go to the studio to practice and just because I know if I start playing, she'll run at me and yell at me. And, and I'm cool with that, because I'm not forcing it on her. It's like, she is such a strong willed little girl. That that's just you know, it's a fight. I'm not, I'm not prepared to to embark on because it might just end up with her hating music. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. I mean, she she'll never hate music. He loves music. She we listen to music all the time. She loves David Bowie. She loves like, she just loves music, which is fantastic. She wants to play the violin. And that's that came out of nowhere. I think just because we've been watching orchestral things and listening to orchestral things. Yeah, but so she'll sit with me when I practice. And so now, when I practice the saxophone with her. I'm purposely doing really simple stuff. I'm playing major scales. I'm playing scales in thirds. I'm doing things that aren't going to scare her away. So when she starts to play As a musical instrument, she's already going to know these sounds. And she's already going to know. Like, how to practice. Yeah, and and funnily enough, yeah, like it was, it was amazing like after, you know, a week or so she, you know, she came in with me a few times. She was just sort of sitting in the bath and singing, and she started singing this melody in thirds. She was making up like, unicorn and the fairy was things I think the singing in theaters and I'm like, Darling, are you singing what i've what I was practicing. She's like, Yeah. And I just thought to myself, well, there it is, like, it's, yeah, our youngest one. On the other hand, we can I can, I can pick up a spoon, and then drop it on the ground. And she will just go like, Oh, that sounds awesome. And she'll dance around. And she like, she is the absolute opposite. She like you put on any kind of music and she just explodes right there can pull up this and I, you know, and I play, you know, I play the anything and she loses it. She goes crazy. When I put the blender on in the morning. She thinks it's the greatest sound in the world. And she's just sitting there dancing to the funny. Yep, she's just looking for any any opportunity just to bust out and move. She's just pieces hanging work? Absolutely. Oh, look, I know that those qualities that that, you know, the oldest has are only going to be kind of her, or they are going to be her superpowers when she's older. You know, it'd be so easy for us to to destroy that part of her. You know, but we want we're embracing it. Because, you know, the world needs more powerful women and she's she's going to take on the world. And I I wish anyone luck that stands in her way because they will not win. But that's that's what I love about her as well as as challenging as it is. And as hard as it is to deal with sometimes it's actually like, pretty exciting. That she's gonna be that kind of person. Absolutely. Thank you can't wait to see can't wait to see what she doesn't care. She changes the world. Hope she's my manager actually, that'd be good. My manager, my bouncer. Yeah, personal security guy. Oh, that's awesome. is important for you to maintain who you are as a person outside of your role as a parent? Absolutely. Because, you know, as much as, as much as we say that, you know, we're the same person. It's, we're not, you know, and, and I really do believe that the identity is is incredibly important. And, you know, but but you need to know what, what that is, as well. And so, you know, what, what is my identity? And like, what, what do I identify with? And you know, what makes me me? And I've, yeah, there's a few things that make me me. One of them is, is reading, I read a lot. And I still read a lot. And I the one thing that I've kept from my, my life, pre kids is reading. And so every night I've read, it might be two pages. It might be two lines, it might be 100. I don't think I've, I mean, there might be some nights where I'm just absolutely smashed, and I just need to go to sleep. But generally, I'll read. So that's, you know, that's a big thing about my identity that I've kept. And that's and that's a silent part of my identity as well. But it's such an important part of me and a part of my life. And if I wasn't reading i i wouldn't be a very happy person. And so So yeah, that that is the one thing that I've been, I've kept control of my identity as a musician. I don't think that changes because my identity isn't just about me, my identity is actually in other people. Now that might be Come out, it's kind of strange, but you know, in the eyes of, of, of my public and the people that enjoy my music, they don't see me as a father, they see me as out of page the bearded musician. So in many ways my identity still exists. Okay, so that side of it, my public identity still exists. And if I, if I'm, if I'm trying to kind of, you know, simmer away at projects, and which I have been doing a bit, it's been more than simmering, it's been boiling sometimes, but, you know, if my output remains, then my identity in the public eye is the same. It just keeps growing, I guess. But yeah, but personally, it's quite simple. For me in it, and it's, and it's reading, it's listening to music as well. It's a big part of my journey, my kind of journey of being a better person is exploring other other music and letting the music in, rather than just leaving the music out. And, and that's something that I can do with my children as well. And I can share that. And that's, in many ways, kind of really helping our relationship as well, because they're growing through music. And, but then, but then, you know, you kind of have to ask yourself, you know, who am I and, I mean, who, who I was yesterday is different to who I am today. And who I'll be tomorrow, and that's just, that's totally, that's up to me, and it's up to my, my mindset at the time. Because if you think that your, your identity is fixed, then then you're missing out on so many other air like factors of your life that you don't know, existed. And so, I, that idea of identity is is kind of attached to the idea of self, you know, what is self what is, you know, it's just, I don't know, I feel like my my identity is who I am right now. And, and who I am right now, is someone that's, that's in a bit of a creative funk. And I'm okay with that. Because that's who I am right now. You can accept and, yeah, except that except that that's what it is. And if I, if I accept then if I was to be like, Uh huh, I should be this person, I should be this, you know, multi award winning bla bla bla bla bla, that's, that means nothing. Who I am right now. It's who I am right now. And so that, to me is preserving my identity because I'm accepting my identity. For it, we're going deep. Oh, I love it. I kind of hear I need these conversations as well like because, you know, I do I do talk with friends about this stuff, you know, and it always makes me feel better at the end. So it's nice that we're pressing record think the big takeaway from this for if there's any, any fathers listening even mothers as well, is like communication is just key. And, and talking about the things that you really want to do. And then finding a way together to be able to do them. You know, like, just being open. And communicating has just, yeah, it's just made it made made potentially sticky situations. really manageable. You know, and as I said, before, we've got so much help from from family that yeah, we're so lucky. We're very lucky. Very, very, very lucky. I'm eternally grateful for for the people that help us and help me actually it's mostly about me being able to realize not some of my artistic kind of, you know, dreams if you must. Yeah. So yeah, it takes it takes a village

5 Stella Anning Australian guitarist 5 Article # 28 July 2023 I am a guitarist. I perform in many different groups like the Jazzlab Orchestra, John Flanagan Band, Lisa Baird’s Bitches Brew and ISEULA, but I also have my own trio – the Stella Anning Trio or STAT. STAT is a guitar, bass and drums trio, so all instrumental (or at least my first EP was all instrumental…) compositions written by myself. As a child I was always drawn to creative things – I loved fashion and I drew my designs in a sketch book. I took acting classes and singing lessons as well as picking up the guitar. I remember writing pop songs in primary school, before I had any musical training. I always imagined myself being a performer in some way. In high school, I realised the school I was at had a minimal music program, so I asked to move to a musical school and my guitar teacher suggested Blackburn High. I embraced the music program – I was involved in all the ensembles, I joined a ska band (not my choice of genre but that’s what the boys wanted to do and I wanted to play in a band that wasn’t a school ensemble!), I practiced, I took every music subject possible. I loved how social it was but at the same time you were creating and working on your artistic practice. I went on to do my Bachelor of Music Performance in Jazz at Monash University. I have never once questioned if I should do something else – music would and will always be in my life. But I have questioned my place in the scene, most especially being a female musician. And I have also questioned how I could make money! My family taught me the importance of financial stability, which I struggled with when I was a young adult trying to navigate life as a musician. I ended up taking a job on a cruise ship as a guitarist for a stint, and on returning to Melbourne, with little employment, I found myself looking for ‘jobs’, which as a jazz guitarist, is a small pool of jobs, most of which don’t include performing. I stumbled across a gig I had not heard of and did an audition… I found myself in the Australian Army Band! Intermittently, I did over a decade in the Army Band. The job is basically like a full-time corporate band – we played top 40 covers at various events and occasionally we did marching band, which I would pick up the snare drum or cymbals for. After university, I had limited myself into a jazz box, but in that scene, I struggled to find a strong sense of community - after a few negative situations with men at uni, I was struggling to engage with the scene. Once I joined the Army Band, I met people from all across the country and like them or not, I had to work with them. I grew as a woman and as a musician. "In the first year of my son’s life, it was really difficult to leave him – I felt so much mum guilt. But I knew that engaging in the music industry and even just catching up with friends, would ultimately make me a better mother. " It wasn’t until 2020 that I finally decided I wanted to quit work and be a fulltime musician, as I was finding myself turning down great music opportunities because of work. But of course, that quickly haltered. By April 2020 we were working from home and I realised I was pregnant. We have one child; our son is 2 years old. We decided before having kids that we would either have one or none, and we are sticking to that. It just felt too overwhelming to have more than one. Being a musician, with the nightlife and the constant hustle, it didn’t seem that appealing to have kids at all! So, our little family is now complete! You have to find new ways to approach life once you have kids – time is no longer your own. You don’t just ‘go to work’, you have to manage your time to make sure you still allow time for your artistic practice. It is so easy to feel guilty when I ask my partner to look after our son while I go practice – it can feel selfish, but if I don’t do it, then I’m never progressing as an artist. Not only that, I’ll feel incomplete. It’s not just my work, it’s the thing that ignites my soul. After the birth of my son, I had a part-time job, which I really didn’t enjoy, but we had just had a pandemic so it was not the right time to throw away work. I have just quit that job and am currently working on music projects – grant writing, composing for different ensembles and recording. I’m not sure how long I will be able to continue like this, but it’s been really fulfilling. Seeing myself through the eyes of my son, I would not want him to see me working in a job that I don’t like, which made it that much easier to be authentic to myself. Now I feel a bigger urgency to do what I love and do it to the best of my ability. I have been lucky enough to have a music room in our house, however it’s become really difficult with a child – whenever he hears me practice, he wants to come in. I’m sure it’ll improve the older he gets, but in hindsight, it would have been great to have an artistic space that is not in the home, because it’s hard to switch off ‘mum’ when you are practicing and you can hear your kid in the next room! I found out I was pregnant in April 2020, the start of lockdowns in Melbourne. It was a strange time for everyone and everyone was trying to maintain connection with people online. Because of this, a musician friend of mine who as it turned out was also pregnant, started an online mothers’ group for any other musicians we knew that were also pregnant. This group still exists today, although very intermittent now, but it was a huge support through Covid and the unknowns of pregnancy, birth and postnatal. Once we had all become mothers, the conversations changed from preparing for child birth, to breast feeding issues, baby photos, stories and tips but also how to navigate gigs as a breastfeeding person, tips on what breast pump to use, I even at one stage got given some breast milk from one of the mothers in the group, as she knew I was struggling to make enough milk to store for when I’d have weekends away with gigs! The group was and is a huge support that has helped me navigate being a musician mother, which my local mothers group could not provide. My husband has been a huge support. I generally do 1-3 gigs per week and also might have an evening or weekend rehearsal. My husband has a fulltime job, so I look after our son a few weekdays, but I feel like he sees our son just as much because they have a lot of daddy-son time when I am away in the evenings. I perform in a few groups with other new parents and I can see that not everyone’s partners are as tolerant as mine is. I hate to use the word tolerance but also, it seems like there is some tolerance level required to date a musician! I believe your artform is always changing, but it has definitely changed since becoming a mother. I have had immense self-reflection since becoming a parent and have started song writing – writing lyrics and singing. I’ve always dabbled in song writing but as a guitarist, it hasn’t been my preference, choosing to compose instrumental tunes. I guess since becoming a mother and just being older and (hopefully!) wiser, I feel I have more to say and I’ve had a strong pull towards writing lyrics and singing my own tunes. I occasionally sing for corporate gigs and I do a lot of backing vocals for other artists, but this is a big step for me. I feel way more vulnerable now that I’m writing lyrics! Mum guilt is unavoidable. In the first year of my son’s life, it was really difficult to leave him – I felt so much mum guilt. But I knew that engaging in the music industry and even just catching up with friends, would ultimately make me a better mother. It really didn’t take me long to shake off mum guilt, I feel like it was quicker than others around me. I just felt like making myself happy doing the things I love, prioritising my own well-being, would make me be the best version of myself as a parent. "I believe your artform is always changing, but it has definitely changed since becoming a mother. I have had immense self-reflection since becoming a parent." As a young adult trying to navigate my place in the world, I questioned what kind of feminist I would be. Being quite naïve, I didn’t respect the work a mother does and I had no desire to be a mother, mostly because I felt it would take away from my freedom and personal goals. Once I was in my thirties, that started to change, but I still feel uncomfortable to label myself as a mother before anything else. I’m not quite sure why that is, because it definitely takes more of my energy, time, my physical body and my on-going self-discovery as I navigate how to approach every step of my child’s development and learning! I would say as a role model to my son, I want him to see that although he is the most important thing in my life in a lot of ways, being his mummy is one part of the human experience and people are much more complex than one title. Growing up, my family didn’t understand the life of a working musician and there was an expectation that if I was ‘successful’ as a musician, then I would have financial stability. Success as a musician does not always translate directly to monetary wealth. Their concerns influenced my decision to find more stable work at that time. Since then, I have tried to balance passion with also meeting my practical needs. I surround myself with lots of creatives that recognise the value of creative work and not solely measure it by financial metrics. Most of the time (not all of the time!) the more artistic and freer the music is, the less pay. For me, it’s about finding a balance of doing some improvised music that may be minimal pay, but also doing some corporate work or more mainstream gigs that might help balance it out. My mother very rarely worked full time. Most of our childhood she was the mother at home or she had a part-time job. Although I know my mum loved being a stay-at-home mother and looking after us, she also didn’t have much of a choice, especially when we were young. There weren’t many childcare options close to us. Mum also said that there was a lot of judgement from the other mothers around her, that you weren’t a good mum if you were to get a full-time job. We were privileged enough that my parents could live off one income, and so predominantly that was what they did. I am currently writing my next EP for my trio ‘STAT’ and also working on a collaborative album of duets with other musicians. The idea of this duet album is to give me the opportunity to reconnect with various people in the music scene – since having a baby, I have struggled to feel connected to the scene and I definitely don’t go see as many gigs as I would like, so this was a way for me to network and be creative at the same time! These projects are still in the initial stages and will most likely come out next year. For now, you can follow me on socials where I promote whatever gig is coming up at the time! Contact Stella Watch the music video I created whilst having a one year old! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lafiw-B4hgM&feature=youtu.be Buy the EP here https://stellaanningtrio.bandcamp.com/album/stat Follow me on socials https://www.facebook.com/StellaAnningTrio https://www.instagram.com/stellaanningguitar/ BACK