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John Cuk Father's Day Ep. - US conductor + educator S2 Ep49 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Each Father's Day I like to do a few special eps. To mark the occasion in the Northern Hemisphere my guest for this special Father’s Day Episode is John Cuk, from New York, USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist, and a dad of 2 girls. John started playing the piano at age 5, played the trumpet in a band, sang in choirs, grew up going to the theatre, opera and going to concerts, even though his parents weren’t musical he was exposed to the arts. In school he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. He went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and The Manhattan School of Music as well as post graduate work from Westminster Choir College and gained his Masters in Piano Performance. John juggled being a professional musician with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the class room brought him. John's career in academia spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, Somers High School, Middle Schools in Chappaqua, New Rochelle, Rye and at The Anglo-American School in New York. He retired from his position as the Director of Choirs at Manhattanville College in Purchase, NY in 2018 after 16 collective years there. John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor, he’s conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Alice Tully Hall, Marmorsaal, Schloss Mirabell (Salzburg, Austria), Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ (Constanța, Romania), Kennedy Library (Boston), Música Sin Edad (Buenos Aires, Argentina), Temppeliauki, (Helsinki, Finland) and The International Youth Orchestra Festival (Lucca, Italy). Active in musical theatre and opera, John has held positions with Music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, Opera Estate in Rome Italy, Utopia Opera and Dell' Arte Opera in New York, New York, Buck Hill/Skytop Festival in Pennsylvania, Westchester Conservatory's Summer Vocal Music Academy in White Plains, New York, as well as Musical Director for countless musical theatre productions both at the high school and college level. Guest conducting includes Ridgefield Symphony (CT), Chorus and Orchestra of Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ Constanța, Romania, Orchestra Sinfonica di Bacau, Romania in Italy, Moldova Radio Symphony in Chisinau Moldova, National Chorale's Annual Messiah-Sing-In at Avery Fisher Hall as well as choral festivals for Western Connecticut, Suffolk, Duchess and Westchester Counties in New York. He is active as a coach, accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. John performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians and is currently a staff pianist for The Bronx Opera. It is always interesting on these occasions to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it is something that many of us are interested in, it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with mums. I'm very grateful for John for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing and music overall. Connect with John Connect with the podcast Music throughout this episode is taken from the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I present a special Father's Day episode to mark the occasion in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is always interesting on these occasions, to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it's something that many of us are interested in. And it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with moms. My guest for this special episode is Shaun cook. He's from Connecticut in the USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist and a dad of two girls. John started playing the piano at age five. He played the trumpet in a band, singing choirs grew up going to the theater, opera and to concerts. And even though his parents weren't musical, he was exposed to the arts from a young age. In school, he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. John went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and the Manhattan School of Music as well as postgraduate work from the Westminster choir college, and he gained his master's in piano performance. John juggled being a professional musician, with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the classroom brought him. John's career in academia has spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, summers high school, middle schools in Topanga, New Rochelle, right and at the Anglo American school in New York. In addition, he retired from his position as the director of choirs at Manhattanville College in purchase New York in 2018. After 16 collective years there, John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor. He's conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, and Avery Fisher Hall, as well as in Salzburg, Austria, in Romania, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Helsinki, Finland, and in Lucca, in Italy, active in musical theater and opera, John has held positions with music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, opera estate in Rome, Italy, Utopia Opera in New York, New York, among others, as well as musical director for countless musical theater productions, both at the high school and college level. John is active as a coach accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. He performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians, and is currently a staff pianist for the Bronx opera. I greatly appreciate John's openness and honesty throughout this chat. And for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing, and music in general. I hope you enjoy the music you'll hear throughout this week's episode is in the public domain and therefore is not subject to copyright. Thanks so much for joining me today, John, all the way from United States. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me inviting me. So whereabouts are you over there? I'm in the Northeast. I live in a town in the state of Connecticut about an hour's drive north of New York City. Yeah, right. Do you get to go to New York very often. Does your work take you there? Or? Yes, it's not as easy a commute as I would I would like it anyway. But I have gotten to work in New York often because it is it is the center, you know, of all musical things and theatrical things here. Yeah. So on that. So you're a conductor, a musician, yourself, you play the piano. Sorry. Can you share with us starting off with sort of how you got into what you've done with your life over the last how many years? Many years? Well, I, you know, I started playing at a very young age, I was five when I started playing piano, and was involved in a variety of musical things. I played the trumpet, in a band assigned choirs. We went to the theater, or we went to concerts. So there was, even though my parents were not musical, we were exposed to a great deal of music and the arts. I went to a sort of an academic high school that had a terrific choir. And so I latched into that as well as a good band. And going through the thought of going to music to study to be a teacher, be a music teacher. I had the experience of so many great music teachers, both in elementary school music, elementary school and high school, that I thought it was a worthy thing to do. And so I went to a small little suburban liberal arts school in New York State, got a degree in music, education, but also did a lot of playing. I had also learning Oregon, as at a young age and played in churches, and realized that, you know, the teaching piece was really important to me, but the music piece was was equally important. And so I tried to pursue both I got out of undergraduate school, took a few years off, and then decided I was going to get my Master's in piano performance at the Manhattan School of Music in New York City. And so at that point, I was kind of on the track that I wanted to be a full time performer. But there was a part of me that just couldn't accept, sitting in a practice room says for six to seven hours by yourself, I love a making music with other people, especially singers. But I also really love the classroom as well. And so I finished my masters and rather than hit the road and play, I got a teaching job and tried to maintain both professions. Good. So for many, many, many, many years, it was tough to do. You know, one of the things I think that I loved about teaching was that it really grounds zoo, you know, Monday morning comes in, the students come into your room, they don't care what performance you had on the weekend, or how great you were, they could care less. I enjoyed that the fact that I could go out and you know, and freelance and do what I thought were wonderful things but in the morning, I had to, I had to prove it to my students. They didn't want to hear about my exploits. Yeah. And so you know, maintaining a practice schedule while your your full time teaching, then apparent, you know, is is challenging. But, you know, I tried to do the best I could with it. And I have no complaints about the choices I make. I made your my life. I retired from the teaching bit I taught at a number of public secondary schools. The last one, a very, very good one in New York Scarsdale High School. And I also taught for 15 years as a was the choral director at a small liberal arts music school also in the New York metropolitan area. Because choral and vocal was also very, very big. And I love working with words. I love working with singers. And I retired and I ended up freelancing before this pandemic hit. And then what changes again? Oh, yeah, we could have a whole nother conversation about life. I've had enough I was really interested to speak to you because when I saw that you conducted not just orchestras, but also vocal groups and inquires, I spent probably 20 years of my life, singing in vocal groups and choirs, and I just absolutely loved, loved it so much. I learned so much from it. And I thought, I haven't spoken to another conductor. I don't think ever, I mean, the conductor that conducted me for all that time. And I just thought it'd be really nice. As part of this podcast to indulge myself a little bit. Game. I can do it, Carla. Yeah, so yeah, I spent years singing like that time, like Kirby Shaw was really big on these sorts of arrangements and was just a great time we saying we're all female. So we're SSA or SSI. And I was I'm an alto or second outro. And I used to just add, and I just love that feeling of blending and changing your tone to suit people around you and listening at the same time as singing. It just taught me so much about working with other people and a no compromise. You know, it's not all about me, I'm not a soloist, here, it's, we're all working together. The choral thing is just, it's an amazing bit of humanity. And I, for one, when you mentioned, you know, SSA or s a women's groups, I one of my favorite activities was to conduct women's groups. Yes, I almost felt like they invited me into their little thing. But the bonding that goes in a women's group and a sound as you say that you know, how you you really have to change a little bit of your, of your your thought process. But when it happens, the energy in a women's group is unlike any performing group I that I know of. And I, I love that I'm probably missed that the most about not conducting is conducting women's groups. But yeah, what you say is, so it's so true about choral groups. And I think when a conductor is savvy enough to to know that it's not really just about the music, but it's also about the people, because the force of the group shouldn't necessarily come from the podium, it should come from within. And if you can create that sort of atmosphere where they were the singers feeling engaged, and part of this, that they're not just being lectured. It's a it's just an amazing feeling. I missed that I miss choral groups. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, the buzz that you get, like, we were, like, I'm in my 40s. Now. So I started singing in that group when I was probably 14. And we always used to look around at each other. And just, we were just these individual kids and teenagers. And as we grew up, we kept saying, how do we sound so good? Because we'd look at each other and think, Well, we're not like that good. You know what I mean, as individuals, but then when we'd sing together, it would just be this amazing sound. And we just think, I don't know, it, just it the collective, you know, we'd just have this amazing energy and, and it was it was like you say, like a sort of a, it was a humbling experience, I think to realize that there was things you could achieve that were greater than yourself and greater than your own ego, I suppose. Yeah, it was just when I look back on it. Now, I don't think I realized at the time, how fortunate I was to have that experience and for such a long time with the same roughly the same group of people. Yeah, it was fun. The bond, that amount of bonding that happens in those groups, it's just amazing. It's like, you know, it doesn't happen in an all males group. And it doesn't, it certainly doesn't happen in a mixed group. There is some bonding and a mixed group, but it just for some reason, women are much more able and capable of loosening some of the garbage that's around all of us. And I you know, I knew I could never I could never get really that close to it because of who I am. But it just was awesome to be around and the way they treated each other though. They backed each other, you know, and and it reflects in the sound. That's why this the sum of its parts is more important than the individual. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the perfect description, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, he's just us, he said that it just reminded me of this moment, when we were recording, we recorded a couple of albums. Back in the 90s, this is going back. And we had to travel to Adelaide to record it, because our little town doesn't have any sort of capacity for recording how many people in one room at one time, and we were doing this particular song I can't make I think it was called Johnny has gone for a soldier, it's that was like, Oh, amazing, amazing song. And the soloist was having a bit of trouble, because she had to record it live while we're all recording. And so she was having a bit of trouble. I can't remember what parts or whatever. And our conductor took us aside and he said, we have to, we have to keep doing this. And I've done it a few times. But we have to keep doing it for Rene. And he basically gave us a choice. He said, we can go home now because it's the end of the day, and we come back and get it done the next day and stay an extra day. Well, we can stay here tonight, we can get it done. And we can you know, get Rene solo through and and we will get a we're gonna do it. We're gonna stay here now and get it done. And, you know, like that just support get behind each other. You know, it was just, and we wanted it to be good for her. We wanted her to have that experience as well and achieve what she wanted to, I suppose as the soloist because, you know, it's it's important when you get a solo to do it justice for yourself, you know how you want to present it. So I could totally relate to that. And that's interesting to hear that in your experience that it's not something that happens with with the men's group in the mix so. Hey, sorry, I've got a visit I forgot to say that. I'd say sorry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I had to. I had to in some of the some of the things they pulled me in concerts. Oh, yeah, my little one decided once she was going to mimic me conducting from the audience. I think she was better. That would have been lots of laughs people around, it would have enjoyed it. But did you? Did you start to realize at the time what was happening that she was doing that? Yeah, it was right behind me. You know, because we were both my wife was playing and I was conducting. Yeah, just school concert. So it wasn't, you know, it's not Carnegie Hall. But we had put them in a seat because we were sort of in the pit area. And we put them in seats right behind us. So that, you know, they wouldn't wander and they wouldn't, you know, be by themselves. And so, because we're both occupied, you know, here, I'm doing these grand gestures. And all of a sudden, I noticed that there's a mirror behind me doing. And the audience is laughing. Oh, that's so special. Isn't it? Like, Oh, I love that. That isn't? Well, I mean, you're, you know, the title. Or at least the you know, the title of the of your podcast is having to do dealing with family and being a musician. And that's a, that's a tough lift. You know, it is a tough lift. But when, when you have a moment like that, you know, then you realize that, you know, how special it is for also for the for the children, you know, my children's still sort of involved in music. So, yeah, it's sort of validating, I suppose, then you realize that they see what you're doing, like, there. And in a way, they're probably so proud of you. That's probably not the words a child would use. But, you know, to mimic you to copy what you're doing. You know, that's where they say flattery is the what's the word? Something's the biggest form of flattery. I can't actually, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like she or he, I'm sorry, what if, like, there was so. So wrapping what you were doing so? Yeah, I think that's a lovely story. I have two daughters. One is 34. And the other is third, the 231 311 lives in Northern New York State almost by the Canadian border, the city of Rochester. She, she's an opera director. And she does a freelancing and works as an adjunct in some schools. And the other is getting her master's in information in library sciences in New York. And she lives in Brooklyn. Yeah, right. Yeah, opera. That's that's a whole new world, isn't it? That's like, compared to the car. Well, like, it's different isn't? It? Isn't it isn't? You know, I, opera is a big piece of my, my background. And frankly, I got into opera as a young person and musical theater before I got into choral music. But, you know, I mean, some of the core, some of the opera choruses are amazing piece of choral work. And you're also dealing with languages, you know, you're dealing with subtexts. In some cases, you know, classic stories. I know, perhaps, maybe people think that opera is passe. I don't I mean, what's happening? I don't know what's happening there. But what's happening here is a massive revolution in librettos, and people writing operas, and not just regurgitating the same 25 year a year, but it's, I love it. You know, it's a combination really of great orchestral music, great choral music and great solo music, and theater. What more could you have? Yeah, that's it, it takes so many books, this doesn't, does and then this band is ballet. And some of them I actually had, the episode I released just this week was with a dancer from the Australian ballet. And I, I recorded with her for almost three hours, because I couldn't stop talking about the music. And thank goodness, she was kind enough to indulge me but I was just like, I don't know, that obviously, as a musician, I'm so enthralled by that part of of ballet. And I just find that just the whole world of ballet is a mystery. So it was lovely to be here to share a lot of these behind the scene things we all think it's a bit like that Black Swan movie, but she showed me that it's not all like that some parts of it. Those they had a hard they really have a hard because they have to make it early. Young. And, and I think the physical, there's a physical toll and music as well. But the physical toll on on dancers is really intense. So I think they haven't my Google, oh, the way she was describing what they do how like the days, they're doing there might be rehearsing one day and then performing that night, but they'll be doing perhaps they're not rehearsing the show they're doing that night anymore. They're learning the next one. And it's just like, not only would your brain be spinning, but your body is just under the pump, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week. And like when I was talking to us, I was trying not to be sound too daunted. But I was like, This sounds exhausting. Like how do you guys actually do it? Like, you know, and then to fit in having a family as well? Like, how how do you physically manage it all? It's just such a know, a really challenging world. Yeah. I think I think Broadway actors are similar in that, you know, I I know a few and I had a few former students and their lives aren't just it's not the rock star stuff that you think it is that we all think that media thinks it is? Yeah, no, they're working eight nights a week. They can't really take time off because you don't know if a show is going to close. They're worried about what the next show comes. There's the physicality of it they they actually have misuses and people backstage to deal with them when they were there elements. It doesn't exactly sound Like, you know, rock star movie star kind of thing we are, it's, it's such hard work and that and it makes you appreciate it, when you see it, you think of, if you can, if you have an appreciation of what they've been through, to be able to bring you what you're watching, just, you know, have such respect for these people and the work that they've done, and continue to do so. So you mentioned before that your wife is also a musician, what does what does she play? What'd she do? She, she was a pianist, also. And a choral director, she actually called her up to the schools. Most her age group was mostly here in the US grades six through eight. And sometimes a little younger. And so, you know, we, in one way, we had a one where you sort of had an advantage because we were both on a school schedule, which helps in bringing up children in another way. A disadvantage is that December, May in June, you know, like, some similarity was always out at night. And so, you know, trying to figure out who's picking the kids up who's getting dinner, who's that sort of thing, but she you know, I don't think she had I can say this, we, we've been married with a beetle before you for two years in May. But we shouldn't have that kind of burning passion to really want to play by herself. She was very comfortable and love the classroom and loved the whole element of the classroom. And she was coral. Like I said that and she was a really good teacher, she retired also, this is her first year of retirement. You know, she kind of bridged a little bit into that sort of that pandemic teaching and decided that this is not really what I signed up for Yeah, but so we did share a lot of music and a house I mean, there was always music in the house somebody was always playing and although we tried not to force our kids to be in music it you know just sort of happened sometimes you just can't help but if you if you're surrounded by it it's it just gets into you doesn't know you feel the need to go up and conduct is that that daughter that that imitated us that the daughter that is the opera director? No Actually no, no she she was the younger she's the younger daughter and she was very as a child growing up how can I say spicy monkey still is a little bit she played actually she played the viola through school and was quite good but again did not have that you know there's there's a certain there's a certain amount of mania and I might even say sickness that you need to have to, to kind of keep that thing going and neither girls although they love music, and they were quite good at it, they just didn't have that to go to go beyond that which is just fine. You know, it's not but no, she never. She played a few decent orchestras and you know, we used to play together sometimes I would accompany her if she asked me but no, never took up the baton except for that one time. Maybe she read the critics loved it. That story. That is a really good story. Hello so in that, but you've, your wife and yourself are sort of juggling the parenting role and trying to do your music was that I had an I had a weird it, was it ever sort of uh, was it? Was it hard to sort of juggle who was going to get to do certain things? Were there ever sort of clashes where it was like, we don't both try to do the same thing like that, that that experience where you had to take the girls with it? Was there a lot of that sort of stuff where you're both having to be out and bringing the children with you? I would say there was a little angst on on who's you know? And if, but I, I could, we were very good to each other and that we communicated, you know, and we knew what what needed to be done. So like, if I was doing a show, that pretty much meant, like for the last 10 days I was done. And if she was doing a show was the same thing? No, like there's any, you know, he might say chase you. But with the with the onset of digital calendars. makes things a lot easier, because now all of a sudden, everything is like in front of you. And everything has is in front of me and vice versa. Well, we didn't have that when, when our daughters were growing up, but it helped being in a school schedule, for sure. You know, they were it would sometimes be is if I had extra stuff if I was doing extra freelance things on the weekends or sometimes. You know, I did a few festivals over this festival over the summer, which took me away for a bunch of time. There were maybe there was a little friction there. But I don't you know, I think with some of that. And I know what you're driving at with the question, I think is that, you know, like sometimes well, it is, you know, somebody, somebody gives up a portion of their thing for the house, household, and the other person does it. And in a sense, I kind of did that. But not really because I still was teaching my main focus was teaching and playing in church. And my wife's focus was teaching, completely teaching. So it's not like anybody. Anybody asked somebody else to do something extraordinary. So that you could make it big at the Metropolitan Opera. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know, people were who have have had to do that. And you know, that causes great tension, and sometimes they can split up for that. But we did not have to deal with that. And I think that's part of, again, going back to our original set, the grounding that teaching gives you really negates some of that. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for indulging that question that sort of, you know, I'm appreciative of your giving me your time as, as the man in the relationship to how you deal with that, and how that makes you feel, you know, what I mean? It's like, I think on my show, we do talk a lot about how women try to cope, you know, sometimes in a man's world and depending on what sort of art circle they might be in. So I find it I just, you know, in a kind and respectful way to hear what the other side has to say, You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I, you know, and I think, I think one of the problems is that there isn't enough dialogue about that. It's something that really people don't think about when when they do get married or when they have children. Is that okay? And perhaps, perhaps, it certainly is better than what it was when I was growing up where, you know, there were, there were definitely roles carved out. You know, my father went out to work, my mother stayed home, she didn't go out to work sometimes. But the one thing I did learn from my father, because he worked in a restaurant business he cooked. And so to me, that was never something that was, well, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do that. As matter of fact that that in some ways for me, if I'm going to the market and buying stuff, and cooking it, that's a real release valve. I mean, I actually really enjoy doing that. Yeah. And so I think that the problems occur when you don't communicate and I think there are certain things that I know my wife does that other people might think are so called manly things to do. Because I don't like doing them, and I'm not very good at them. The things that I do that might some people might say, are not manly kinds of things. And I don't care. I also think that a lot of those those, those, those boundaries are changing, they certainly change, you know? And who know who would not want to be involved with rearing your children being around your children? I mean, I can't imagine why you'd want to, why would you have them anyway. So that's somebody that you used to look forward to when, when, when they were young, I do this once by accident. And I would take a day off from school in December after my concerts were done. I pull them out of school. And I take him to Manhattan. And the first my wife was out doing a concert and I was home with the girls got Chinese takeout or prices to carry out and decided to rent the film Breakfast at Tiffany's, which they've never seen before. And so they allow, I was glad that they fell in love with I hadn't seen it since I was a kid. So they wanted to go have Breakfast at Tiffany's. I took the day off, we went into Manhattan. We sent the student for a Tiffany's with a bagel or whatever it was, and then went to the tree. And it just it was such an amazing day that I ended up doing that for maybe four or five years after that, not necessarily going to Tiffany's but other parts of Manhattan at the time with the two of them. And I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet they remember those, like really special memories, too. It's part of their childhood. Yeah, they do, actually. Yeah, that's lovely. But I think you're right, though. It's like the gender stereotypes, the gender roles are being challenged, which is awesome. I don't think I could have had this conversation. You know, in my dad zero, that would have just been What are you talking about? Like, why is why is this even a question? This is, this is not what happens. You know what I mean? It's just things are changing in that that's awesome for everybody. Because that's the thing, like, just because, like I spoke to a dad for this podcast last year for the Father's Day episode, and he said this, because I'm the dad, why was it assumed that I'm the one that has to leave the house and go to work? Why can't I be the one that stays with my children? Because I love my children? Why would I want to stay with my children? So you know, everyone's the mind shift. The mindset is shifting with every generation and which is awesome. Like, it's really good. Yeah, I almost wish it was shipped a little faster here in the United States. Yeah, yes, things not shipped so fast. As I'm sure you can see. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So you talk about communication being really important. Did you at that time, when you were thinking about starting your family? Was that a discussion that your wife and yourself had? How's this going to work with our careers? And what we want to keep trying to do musically? Was that? Was that something that happened then? No. We, we were married for seven years before we had our first born and how grant time flitting around going into the city going to Europe. I I loved our lifestyle. I really didn't want it to change. And but I knew having a child was was really important in my life. And I'm not sure if it was that important to me. And I kept I wouldn't say resist, but you know, you know, the usual and we don't have my mind. We don't house you know, that sort of thing. And then finally, I would that's part that's part I assume has to be part of the package. So I didn't want to go back on my word. I was frightened. Frankly, to be really honest. I thought that my entire life would change completely. Um, and I remember, you know, both girls were C sections and my wife was in a hospital, the first one. I remember, she was in hospital and I came home from visiting. And I was by myself and I remember sitting with a very large glass of wine. Watching. It was a European cable channel that used to we used to be able to get that doesn't exist, I don't think it exists. And we're watching the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. And thinking, you know, I'll never play that. You know, I'm sure most of it was just the exhaustion. shock of it. But, you know, I woke up the next day, went back to the hospital, you know, and I was the first one to actually hold her, you know, she was a little thing, you know, and and that whole thought process at that point, it didn't matter anymore. You know, I, but I also to remember playing a recital, like the week after, or like 10 days after being absolutely exhausted. And that's basically that what I realized that my life was going to be as it was just going to, it wasn't going to be that sort of picture. Perfect. I can go and do a gig someplace, and I'm prepared and I'm rested. I'm fired up. It says, basically, let me stay awake long enough to finish it and then go home and crash. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I realized that my life would not change much. I mean, it does change, of course, you know, it has to change. But when it would not change, or at least what I felt was important I like she was she was an infant. And I remember watching a broadcast of a live broadcast from, I guess, the Metropolitan Opera of Mozart's Magic Flute. And Emily was on the floor with me just before bed, and it got to the point where the Queen of the Night sings this array up, up, up, up, up, up, up up a Berber put her bed, I finished watching the thing, the next morning, the next day after school, I come home and she's kind of like trying to sing it. So I went out and got a boombox. I bought the highlights CD of The Magic Flute. And now I realize she has she has the disease. Oh, one. Yeah, and they've always been, you know, we've schlepped them to so many different not only school performances, but also stuff that we aren't being close to Manhattan to New York. They've seen a lot of stuff so but you know, I think at that point, I realized that you know, this these two things can commingle? I was going to ask you, as you were talking about that was you realize that you didn't have to give up one thing to have the other it's that your music and your child, your children could actually, like you said coexist, that would have been a really relieving moment, I would have thought that you sort of would have thought I'm not going to lose it or I'm not going to have to, you know, give up something. No, no, yeah, it was, you know, the, the what it did impress upon me is that I was going to have to work harder to maintain it. Yeah. And sometimes I couldn't maintain it the way I would want to, you know, like I couldn't get to a piano to practice or I couldn't I had to turn down something. But I would have to be it would be more on my shoulders to try to balance those two things like not practicing when they're asleep and those kinds of things. I can see how it would have been a very difficult set have choices for somebody else to make. But once I saw them, as you know, once I saw them, that was not a difficult choice anymore, you know, as much as I love music they don't take that doesn't take the place of my children, you know? Yeah, and I think that's something that everyone's afraid of when, when you, you, you sort of presented with this prospect of having a child and your life completely changing, you have this fear of, what's my life gonna look like? Off you go? Go on, go see that place. You'll be asleep when I come out. That just proves it doesn't it? Just proves it. It's just an you know, sort of, I just have to go go with the flow of it all. Because in the end, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's what matters. Yeah. You know, whether I have to wait 10 minutes or not, that doesn't matter, you know, and if it doesn't, and if it did matter, then then I'm an idiot, you know, because that was more important at that, at that point, and balancing all of that, bravo, you know, that's gonna be hard for what you're doing. Because you're in your house. It's not like you can go someplace else. It is, it is challenging. But the thing that I like to remind myself is that he does have to be parents, and there's a time and place for each parent to have what they need. Because I think it's really important for you to be filled up yourself, have your cup filled up, especially if you, you know, if I think you have to be nurtured yourself before you can nurture someone else, I think it's really important to do that, and that's why I've never stopped singing never stopped creating, through having both kids through both pregnancies. It's like, I think it's just a part of who you are. And that identity doesn't change just because you become a parent, is that part of your life's not going to just, you know, go up in smoke, you're all of a sudden not going to be a creative person, just because you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And that certainly is not, you know, your parents or my parents reality, they had to give up things that they may have wanted to do. I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also what makes creative people also want to do stuff because they, it's almost I don't want to say they want to prove a point that it can be done. But it's like, you've seen how, perhaps your parent your parents gave up stuff that they wanted to do. And maybe that doesn't feel right for you, you don't. And because society's changed, you have those opportunities, so you're going to take them I suppose that's I guess that's a way of trying to describe it. Again, not to delve into the into politics, but I think one of the things that's, that's difficult here in United States is that we don't have daycare. Daycare is all private. And so, you know, there is no infrastructure for we were fortunate that we we made enough money for both of us to go out working and somebody who's watching the children, and then when they went to school, somebody wouldn't, you know, but I remember moving into this house now, where we were, the biggest issue wasn't whether we can afford this was whether we're going to be able to find daycare that was appropriate for both girls. And that that piece I think, helps to be able to share the responsibility and for people to be able to say, okay, I can keep a piece of myself and still be a parent and etc. But I feel so awful, you know, even it was highlighted here, certainly during the pandemic when daycare centers were shut down, and people who really need that, you know, the working class or the poor, have to sacrifice going to work with having their kids at home. And again, I don't want to know, I actually I don't mind delving in politics because I'm old enough to have seen the world spin a few times. And my only hope for this country, you know, we label everything is to make it easier for people to have families and to go to work and to have their dreams, then we can we could have that all. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like a lot of it comes down to circumstance, like you can have all the dreams in the world. But if you physically cannot do it, for whatever constraint that said, it has to has to stop, doesn't it? Yeah, I actually, I spent nine years working in childcare here in Australia. And I'd recently just resigned from that job a couple of weeks ago. And they desperately we need an overhaul here desperately. The same thing during COVID, we didn't get shut down. But the the limitations put on access to childcare were greatly changed. So if only if you were an essential worker, you were allowed to use childcare. So basically deciding whose job was important enough to be able to have childcare, which I thought was pretty ordinary, and a lot of parents obviously, were not happy with that they would ring us and say, Well, why isn't my job important enough? Who decides? You know, the government's decided, but obviously, the sentence the person who answers the phone is the one who's copying that question. And that's not a question they can answer. But that's how people feel. And I can understand that I don't think it's it's not a fair thing to put on people to decide. You're whether you're important enough in in this community in our country, or not, it was just a bit of a mess, to be honest, but Well, yeah, you know, there's an issue here too, about how birth rates are going down. Well, if people are worried about having children, because they can't work. Of course, birth rates are gonna go down. Well, you know, I but yeah, there's a whole thing that just reminded me I listen to a lot of BBC Radio. And they were having a big thing on there the other month about China, how they're now wanting people to have three children. And they were saying, well, there's no infrastructure set up for mums to return to work, there's no childcare, there's, you know, they don't have like nannies system, like it's not a thing over there. So how can you expect people to return to work if you don't give them the, the tools to be able to do it? It's all well and good saying have three kids, it's like, well, hang on a sec, I actually still want to work or need to work. Yeah, it's the also piggyback on your, you know, the point of our conversation, is that that's, that's a huge, a huge, huge issue for people who are in the arts, about having family, you know, and also, you know, if somebody's a freelancer, or, you know, let's say they're fortunate enough to have one of the big jobs, you know, orchestra, full time orchestra or health benefits, the whole thing. Those things happen, like you're a ballet dancer, they rehearse during the afternoon in the morning, and they play at night. And usually they stay in the same hall all day long. So somebody's got to be home. Or there has to be some some accommodation for Where do the kids go? Yeah. That's only if you're you're fortunate to be married to somebody who has that kind of a position. But most of the musicians I know, they're all you know, they're either office temping someplace, and they're they're running out to do gigs at night and taking whatever comes along. And it is certainly a lot harder for them than it ever was for us to to try to bring a family. There's this whole the gig economy, we call over here, people who are freelancers and, and that kind of stuff that they they suffered hugely through the pandemic, because they didn't get the support from the government that other people did, too. So that was a whole nother sort of cultural division of why why is some people worthy of receiving money from the government and some people aren't and the arts just suffered so much. And that's something that I think half the reason why, hopefully, we'll have a change of government because people have realized that the sports kept going and the sports were supported, and that there was all sorts of allowances made for them to travel through interstate to keep playing their football and whatever else they were playing, but the arts just stopped. And even at a local level, there was no support, so I don't I don't that frustrates me. But anyway, we've got an election coming so we can do something about you. Know, I think it's endemic in Australian culture that that of Sport comes first sport. So the bail and endo and the arts are the poor cousin. Unfortunately. But anyway, here too. Yeah. Well, we are here just even on the school's bounce, we're screaming about how their kids games were canceled and you know, the colleges wouldn't come and see them kids play and they wouldn't get into college and scholarships and and so they ended up allowing indoor games like basketball when you couldn't sing in a in a you know, you couldn't have a choir. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah, that singing that singing thing really got us over here as well. That was just really? Yeah, it's hard. You'd have 40,000 people sitting in a stadium watching a football match, but you couldn't gather together in a room and sing together? Come on just the Yeah. Very frustrating. But anyway, hopefully that all that stuff's behind us now and when to get something else. The next variant? Yeah, oh good. Coming back to you as a conductor, I wanted to ask and I haven't I haven't asked you this previously. So I'm going to put you completely on the spot. So if you like to move on to something else and come back to this in a minute, that's fine. I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite piece to conduct? And why? Is it two out of a question? Well, it here here's my usual stock answer when people say to me, what's your favorite composer? Or what's your favorite piece of music? It's like saying, What's your favorite food? There's sometimes I like a plate of pasta. Or sometimes I like a beautiful piece of grilled fish. And there are some times that I might even like pizza. I don't really have it's like, there's a line from this show Oklahoma. When Wilbur Parker asks Adel, Annie, well, which guy do you like better? And she says, whichever one I'm with, I try in conducting and playing. To find even if it's something that I don't may not connect with initially. I tried to find something in it, that I can get my hook into it, and then expand out example, I resisted working learning conducting Carmina Burana for years and years years. I just felt like it just you know, it just seemed like some raucous pieces, you know. And then, this was my college position. They, they hired a new president, who was of German descent. And he decided he wanted the choir to sing a few movements of Carmina Burana at his installation. Interesting choice, I would think, especially with some of that text. So I felt like I really couldn't say no. Even though I didn't have the kind of forces to put that together. So I sat and I studied it. I chose some movements. I managed to get money out of them to put it together. And I did it. And frankly, I enjoy the rehearsal, and I enjoyed the performance in it. So that's an example of something that I had absolutely no, and I knew I had, I should I should do it because everybody does it. I'm more of a lyricist. I mean, I love I love. I love great text. I love melody but I also love complexity. I would say Probably my favorite thing to conduct his BA. Because I love puzzles. Yeah, those kinds of musical puzzles. But there's something there's something tremendous about conducting Verity. There's something tremendous the one guy that that scares me. Let me be honest, but it's probably not gonna be broadcast United States a little matter. Beethoven, I know, people would say, Are you crazy? That's like the pinnacle. Beethoven, to me is so dense, and is one of those composers that I have to work really hard to get at the kernel of it. It just, it's not easy for me. It's not easy for me to play. It doesn't fit my hand well. And it just I look at the score and it's almost like I look in a language that I don't understand. I like to say I probably have enjoyed it. But it's not my desert island kind of fit. I mean, I love listening to it. And obviously his place in music is amazing. To me, Mozart, Mozart operas. Mozart symphonies. CalWORKs Wow. Poulenc Gloria is one of my favorite pieces. The Dorothy Requiem is another one of my favorite pieces. I've done the for a requiem a number of times also one of my my favorites. I've tried to get my try to get my wife to sign a piece of papers to tell me that you know that it should be sung at my funeral. Very carefully choose the soloist. Pas who is just a challenge, you know, first of all first soprano that's a hard question but I don't know if I answered it fully. I also love those you know those small tacos, you know, those Renaissance music. choral music to me is just it's a ethereal I love the big British stuff, the whole host of Vaughan Williams. And again, it's it's it's sort of what what I mean at the moment. Oddly, Mozart, the Mozart Requiem is not one of my faves because it's not really Meltzer except for bits of it. I've done it I've enjoyed doing it. But it's not something that I would really doesn't have the same spot in my in my being as some of the French correlate works. symphonic li DeVore Jack but I also like to conduct contemporary music too. And I find that to be interesting. I love playing contemporary music and for that very reason is that at least the way I work is I look big first and then realize oh my god, how am I gonna redo this and then I go back and just sort of take things in small chunks. And with contemporary music there's there's no preconceived motion to fall on. You know, you can't go to a recording you can't go to you can't read about it. Especially if it's brand new. I played there's a in Hartford Connecticut there was there's a festival every November this first time I did it. It's called New New in November and they basically put on one act operas, chamber operas written for piano five or six of them in a setting and so I played one of them and it was fast it was it was based on the American young American composer from Austin, Texas, based on the Pulse nightclub shooting in Florida. Very powerful and just so much fun at practice and dig into it, you know, this is trying to get and then once you finally get together with the other artists, it just it just it's like magic and so I really that I really enjoy something that has not been done before that I have to trust my own guile and research Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you actually, because I know as, you know, doing choral music, it's sort of up to the conductor to interpret it and to present it in the way that they see fit the way that they you know, the tempo, like there's always the guide to what to do. But someone might put a pause somewhere else for dramatic effect, or, you know, there's, there's room for your own added nuances, I guess. Is that something that you find exciting or daunting, then if you know, someone else has done it? Is it hard to put out of your mind? They didn't like that. But I wanted to do it like this? Or did? Does that make sense? No, it makes great, it's a great question. For one, I'm a bit I'm a bit of a traditionalist, if it's not in the score, I am not going to muck around with the score much unless the big unless is, what can the group in front of me do? I am not a big believer on having this massive conceived idea of a work that they can't accomplish. So if it's a professional group, that's one thing, but if it's an amateur group, or it's a school group, or it's a church group, then what I do, I try to look at what the score demands in terms of sound. And if they can't do it with perhaps the way that somebody else might do it, like speed, I'll do it with articulation to create that same effect. But to me, it makes no sense to try to, to push a group to do something that you have, you know, basically an academic scholastic idea of what it should sound like, and they can't do it. Yeah, what's the sense? So, in terms of freely interpreting, I like to feel like I have some say on that. But mostly, my say on that, especially if it's a choral work has to do with punctuation, breathing, text issues, there's some composers who are very demanding in what they write, and there's others that have their own, like Vaughn Williams, or one I mean, he's, his, his writing has to sort of be interpreted because it's not, it doesn't really make any sense if you do exactly what he says. And I suspect it's because of the acoustic that he was writing for. That it was in a church and a very live acoustic. So sometimes things like the final ends of notes or phrases are kind of, you know, he puts a a quarter note with an eighth note that's tied to it, and a dot underneath that, which to me says, Get rid of the time, especially if you're in a dry acoustic. Yeah, yeah. So but I have a, I have a story that I I did the, the Verdi Requiem in Romania, about four years ago, four years ago. And quiet was quite good. soloists, we're all we're all professional, but you know, like most of these kinds of places, they're all sort of stuck, because you're not there for a long period of time. You basically float into the city, have a couple of piano rehearsals, a dress, you know, you meet the orchestra and then bang, off you go. So there's no time for me to pontificate I want I want there's a spot at the end of the very Requiem, where it is this huge crescendo and then it comes to subido piano. basically impossible to do with the way he wrote it. And it's in the middle of a word. So I scoured various recordings. And one of the recordings I got, which was a composer I conducted that was very influential in my, in my view of conducting was Robert Shaw. And I'm doing amazing pretty regularly. He actually took a little bit of a loose breath before that piano, the whole thing. And then the subido piano, perfect. So I thought it was good for Robert Shaw, if you could for me, right. Nan Romania gave me an issue with it. She said. And I said, Well, you can you make this with the piano without and it turned into this fight. So in the end, okay, it wasn't a subido piano wasn't a piano. But it wasn't worth fighting, because it just wasn't, you know. And so sometimes, you know, I think I probably if I had more time, I probably would have insisted, but my Romanian is not very good. English and I don't think she spoke English very well anyway. But that's the thing like you, you, you're challenging cultural norms that, and it's hard to break down those barriers or even question those barriers, certainly with a limited timeframe. But even at all, I guess, you know, there's 1000s of years of history, and that's what they do. And also, it's also what the what the norm is, in that particular region. Yeah. Right. So, to go back to the very Requiem, I did have an extensive choral rehearsal. To few be subject to a few areas in a very right way. And, you know, being sort of a pianist, and organist, a Bach lover, I mean, I have a certain set way about views. And they sang both views. Like, that was almost anathema to me, you know, you couldn't hear subjects, it just was like this big mush and wash of sound. And my first thought was, okay, so how far I'm gonna go with this? I tried. They were terrific. They were so receptive. Actually, those two choruses were the best things in the entire performance. Because I, they allowed me to break the paradigm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when they actually did it, it was just awesome. You know, so clean it was you could hear every entrance and everything was shaded, and, and they were a good choir to begin with. But that's the difference. And then they were the soprano was not used to that she was used to getting whatever she wanted. And so when she got it what you want, and so I think that the score, it's not a museum piece, you know, it's a guide. And if you have enough, I don't think you should sway far so far from the score that it deviates from what the composer intended. Because that I don't think is right. Yeah. So no, but to use the score, and then also to use your understanding and knowledge of what the pair the practice of the time was, what the idiosyncrasies of that particular composer was, if you know them, if it's a brand new thing, then you know, then you're going on, you're going on guesswork, sometimes you're lucky enough to have a composer there. And that's, that's a long winded way of answering your question about, you know, how do you how do you sort of attack a score like that, but I find it really daunting, but yet fascinating to get like a clean score and thinking, okay. Where are we going from here? Yeah, no, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm throwing some questions that you that you haven't had any morning over. So I appreciate that. I'm a former teacher, I can dish it. Be surprising some of the questions would. No, I love that. Yeah, actually talking about contemporary composers. I had a guest on my show a few weeks ago, Dr. Erica ball, I'm not sure if you've come across her work. She's based in the United States. And she is on this mission, I guess to because she teaches piano and violin as well, to teach her students that they can play music by people that are alive still. That's her thing that it's like women and people that are still alive. And then like, some of his students don't even realize that people are still writing classical music. They think it's all stuff by, you know, people who died hundreds of years ago. So that was a really fun conversation. That's changing here. Mentally, yeah. And I think it's because composers are promoting their music better. I think festivals are promoting the music. And one of the one of the exciting things that I thought that happened during the pandemic here was, you know, because we were all, you know, sitting in front of our screens at home, it allowed us to sort of take some steps back and do a little research. And I was involved with a mezzo soprano friend of mine who wanted to put out a weekly A video of songs written by women composers who were not necessarily household names. And it was fast because we both researched this together. We rehearsed it using, you know, this thing here, which had its had its moments. But the fact that we, you know, we we did that I was, although I knew some names I some of the music is just a why is this buried? Why is nobody playing this? Yeah, yeah. And it's happening here. There's, there's concerts now. A great deal of concerts by African American female composer Florence Price, who wrote a tremendous that was an amazing pianist. Were big groups, symphonic groups. choral groups are starting to really dig in and not look at the same stuff that we've been playing for 300 year. That although some people do advocate that, I think that bringing this no music by living composers into the canon of what we do, is going to sustain classical music and not make it look like just some relic museum piece. Yeah, that is so true. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, because it's like, it will just stay as something that doesn't evolve, it doesn't change, it isn't challenged. And eventually, it'll just, I don't know, might even get lost somewhere because it hasn't evolved. And I don't I, I think it's awesome. It's really, really good to keep it relevant as well for new audiences. And because I think this conversation I had with with Erica was that there is a portion of the audience that desperately wants to hear a song that they know, and they recognize that there's also the people that want to challenge that. So it's also that that generational shift, you know, that that will challenge your whole Hispanic that's been going on for a long time. You know, and you mostly see it in, in orchestras, where they know that their donors, their big donors want to hear Mahler and Beethoven, Brahms, and will not will not stomach in certain places, certain cities are different, but it will not stomach an entire evening of something that they don't recognize or can't understand. Yep. So in the past, orchestras have sort of mixed the program a little bit, you know, they give the castor oil on the sugar. But that's also changing, you know, where, and they've been very smart about it, and using sometimes contemporary living composers who actually show up to these concerts, give a lecture on it. Explain it, because I think some some of that is education. Yeah. But I, it's starting to starting to veer off into the choral world and starting to veer off into the opera world. And I just in some ways, I had a conversation with a friend, we were talking about the pandemic, because let's face it, we all talked about pandemic, how they will would have been no Renaissance, if it wasn't for the Black Death. You know, I mean, the Black Death, the Renaissance was, was a direct cause of coming out of the Black Death as the, the, the pandemic of 1918, the roaring 20s was a direct cause of coming out of that in the First World War. And I maybe I'm an optimist. I am, too. But I think there's going to be a second renaissance in the arts for sure. Because, like you say, they've taken such a hit, and so they can't go back to the same way things were done before. Yeah, I would agree with that. I hope and I hope that that it challenges the norms. of all cultures, but my own I really hope because the thing that frustrates me is that creators and artists make everything that you consume, you know, you wouldn't be able to sit at home and watching Netflix during the pandemic, if somebody hadn't come up with the story and the actors, you know, everybody that goes into making that stuff and everything you touch and like everything has been created by someone and made by someone who designed by someone, but we just seem to take it for granted. I suppose. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Then I Yeah, yeah. Until it was denied. And yes, yeah, we could argue for granted until they shut theaters down until they shut everything else down. And you had you had a search for it someplace else. And some of the arts organizations were smart enough. My follow up and for one is that then they started releasing all of their HD videos for free. Yeah, right, every week, you know. And, again, thinking of the longer the longer game, and a longer game is to, is to keep this thing going. Yeah, and perhaps not being precious about, you know, like that, that maybe giving up some income, maybe things used to have to be paid for in that way. But just because we've always done things a certain way, that doesn't mean we have to keep doing them a certain way, if we want to evolve and remain relevant and, you know, reach these audiences that are basically a candid audience. They're not doing anything else. So we pump them full of this stuff. And then they love it. And then they when they come out, they want to consume it even more. I, I, we went to the opera. In September, the Mecca opened back, you know, opened back up again. And this, they decided to open their season with a new opera. And it was written by the book was written by a columnist for the New York Times, fire shut up in my bones. If you ever have an opportunity to see the HD video, that is amazing. But the thing that was really amazing is that when this show opened, and as I said, it opened the season, which is unheard of. It was packed. And the audience was unlike any audience I've ever seen at any classical concert, anywhere. In the world, it was just like, first of all, it was an it was an event. And the age differential was huge. The the social makeup was huge. And I've seen, I saw people that I've never thought I would see at the Metropolitan Opera and a place went and it was, besides the fact that it was an amazing performance. But I thought they were going to rip down the house at the end. It was just was incredible. And that shook me. It's because when a staid institution, like the Metropolitan Opera can have the guts to say things are different. We're going to change a little bit of a the conversation here, I think there's no reason why not everyone else can also do. Yeah, that's incredible. Isn't it? Like the risk that they would take doing that, but the payoff has so many sort of flow on effects, not just for them, but for the how the culture of opera is now. You know, changing? Yeah. Incredible. The entire company, the entire production team, what's African America? Yeah. Yeah. And the dancing on stage was something that was unlike anything you would have ever seen on the Met stage. And it was just amazing. The band, the orchestra was actually a full symphony orchestra with a band in the middle of it. Playing and the music also had jazz elements, you know, symphonic elements, all sorts of just a hodgepodge of great, great stuff. I just hope they do more. Never was more of a Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I sort of feel like ballet is really good at pushing the boundaries. I know the the Australian ballet here. You know, they've they've got to get the they get the balance right from the the shows that people want to say the sleeping beauties in the swan lakes and the nutcrackers. But then they get and they've been doing this for many years, getting the people we're gonna get people from Europe over to showcase to contemporary works and to push the boundaries of what people think ballet is. And I think I feel like ballet is really good at doing that. And yeah, the I think dancers always been really good at that. Because the music is except for those those chestnuts. The music can be anything you want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the style could be anything you really you really want it to be there's you're not really. I mean, the people have tried to pry loose a little bit of, you know, our conceived notions of what Nutcracker and Swan Lake should look like. But for the most part, if you do a contemporary thing, you're not under any constraints to do anything except what that work demands. Yes, they I think they've been good with that. And I think belly audiences are much more receptive To that, even though, you know, I frankly used to hate going to the ballet we call them the white glove crowd here. And so you'd sit in the audience and all of a sudden they take out these little bond bonds with the rappers it's like the most sublime piece of music and the oh here. And it would take forever for that thing to get in that woman's mouth. And it was just like, irregardless of what was going on. Yeah, just so I was never a great fan of the audiences of our ballets but for sure. We have this concept of mum guilt that I talked to my guests about and I love I love to eat sounds bad rice, I love talking to people about their guilt. But I find it really fascinating because everybody has different experiences, everyone might deal with it differently. Some people don't feel it, some people feel it a lot. And I like to when I get the chance to talk about how men feel about that. Because your say your a man's role generally is perceived as different to the woman. So it is expected that you might you know, you leave the home and do what you got to do and that sort of thing. Do you? What's your take on? I guess? I don't want to call it dad guilt because I don't. I don't even like calling it mum guilt. But I call it that just for the hashtag mum guilt, you know? What's your thoughts about all that sort of stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean by it. Okay. So the way that we talk about mum guilt is that when your mom, you're supposed to do stuff for the children. And then if you do something for yourself, you should feel guilty about that. Or if you don't meet the norms of what society deems as being an I'll put in air quotes, again, a good mother, you should feel guilty for that. An example that I can give you is a guest I had on the show, went out one night to watch a classical music performance. And she was there with their friends. And one of the people she met said, Oh, it's such a shame you're missing bedtime. You know, it's good that you could come tonight, but you're missing putting the kids to bed and she's like, why is that a question? Why are you asking me about bedtime? I shouldn't say this to the person. But you know, my child has two parents that my husband is quite capable of putting the children to bed. And I'm quite capable of leaving the house and doing certainly for myself. It does. I guess I can and I probably shouldn't answer for my wife. But I but you know, certainly when we've been out and I have to admit that we did not go out much without them. Okay, that was our choice. We took them to everything, including restaurants. And some of it was because we just liked being around them. And I don't think it was guilt. I just think you know, I could probably count on one hand. Firstly, babysitters rarely had a babysitter. Now, when one of us had to do something or went out? I would say that maybe Celia would feel a little, you know, like a little bit. I shouldn't be home. But I'm sure it passed fast. Especially knowing that I was there. Yeah. If I wasn't there, then I would have been a different story. If it we were both out someplace for sure. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Guilt is a strong word. You know, I might think about you know, where I what I was doing. And I have to say I'm not I wasn't the kind of guy when the girls were young that Did you know like went out with the boys and that kind of stuff. I didn't do that at all. I had no intention to do that. I'm perfectly fine staying home with the girls. But you know, I might think oh, okay, we'd be having dinner right now or the, you know, shower time in the bath time. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it good. Yeah, you know, might as you said, you know, like our, the generation of our parents, they had to give up stuff. And I'm sure that, you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father who was in a restaurant business without every night working, and come home till two, three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them, you know? But, you know, I almost I must wonder about that. And it just, it's sort of a foreign thing. I understand why people might think that it I, it's hard for me to kind of think, put myself in there. Because, for one, we took them everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we, the first time they went to Europe, to see my family, and she's been other places. One of them was five years old, four years old. You know, like, I mean, those kids went when traveling more than most. We went to restaurants. And so they were very, very early age. And we just, we wanted, we love being around each other. And it wasn't like to be with her mom or sisters. I'm sure maybe she felt a little, but I'm sure it passed quickly when she was with her sisters or whoever. And I never felt that, you know, I mean, I I was out a lot. You know, I was a church musician. So I never felt that. Unless I was out for an extended period of time. Like when I would do summers in Rome. I was five, five weeks, six weeks. Yeah, I did. For sure. I did. Because I knew all of it fell in unseal you know, and I wasn't there to sort of pick up the slack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for answering that. I know. It's, I feel, no, it's something that fascinates me. But again, I, I want to be respectful when I ask people about things like that, because, you know, it's a bit of a, you're asking people to tell, you know, really private things about themselves. So appreciate you indulging me. Well, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think people who, who will listen to this should think there's, this is these are questions that, you know, are there and other people have coped with this before, and are coping with it now. It's not like a new thing. It's not. And, you know, like, with anything else, we, you know, like your, your story about feeling bad, because she's, you know, missing mum time. I mean, that that's something you put on yourself. That's not, that's not you create, you can create your own thing. You know, and I think in this in this age that we're in now, people respect when you create your own thing, and you're and you're strict with it, perhaps 40 years ago, no, you know, that question whether you are a good mother, if you were out, you know, but that, to me seems something that is more someone someone's demanding of themselves rather than it's coming from outside? Yeah, I think I feel like social media has had this impact of, of showing us so many different elements of people's lives, that allows us to compare elements of our own lives with them. But I think what we have to remember is that what people place on social media is very curated, and they're generally only showing the best bits. And so it's like, the advent of social media has allowed more comparison. And I think allowed more people to question themselves. I don't know, am I doing it right? Or what are people going to think if I do this, or, you know, whereas I think sometimes it's better just to do what works for your family and in stay really insular in your thoughts and not think about what's happening. You know, the last I checked, there was no manual. There's no degree on any of this. And, and there's no one way, you know, and so I, you know, we I think we all come into this thing with, obviously, what we were brought up with, knowing what worked and what didn't work, or what we want to imitate and what we certainly don't want to imitate. And then we go from there. And it's a partnership for one. It's not just one person deciding that. I know some families where it is all only one person and frankly, they're dysfunctional. And so, in some sense, you know, like to me bringing up children and also create a household idea is it's creative because it is based on the on the two of you. And it's also based on what, you know, your children's needs, etc. And there's no one way. I don't think there is no. Oh, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. definitely agree with that. If you've got anything, any projects coming up or anything you want to share about it might have in the works or anything at all? Really? Yeah. It's a little slow for me getting back right now. Because the some of the things that I was involved with, are taking your time coming back. I've been I'm playing more, which is good. The conducting is coming a little slow. Right now, I was supposed to do conduct on Giovanni in Romania before this pandemic hit. And so I'm kind of like in a in a negotiation, trying to get that either in June or possibly in September. But I don't have any pressing things at the moment. In some ways, that's good. Well, my oldest daughter is getting married in October. And so that is pressing. It's pretty important. That is pressing. But in terms of artistic stuff. I don't I don't I don't think so. I am revisiting Don Giovanni, just in case I do call to do that in June, because it's a pretty big, pretty big work. I'd like to get that off on my back and off my off the table. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's, as of right now. My, my modus operandi is the, you know, when when the things come in, jump on them. I have no real plans. You know, I hope that some of the smaller theaters that I was working in, will start coming out, you know, the problem is, is that they were unwilling to commit to performance venues, because they weren't sure they're going to get closed again. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty is living an hour outside of New York, but also the problem is, is I'm an hour outside of New York. And so anybody in New York can gobble up whatever it is very quickly. Yeah. So but that's okay. You know, I stuff, things will come back, and perhaps things will come back that where I can go back picking and choosing what I want. I'm done with just grabbing anything that comes along, no matter how miserable it is. Yeah. Yeah, you can do it because you want to do it and you're passionate about it. Yeah, it's nice to take a step back a little bit, actually. And you know, to think a little bit more about all this and study a little bit more about all this and and then we'll see. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for being a part of this special Father's Day episode. I'm very, very grateful for your time and for your candor, and your honesty, and I've really enjoyed our chat. Thank you, John. I enjoyed our tattoos. It was fun, and good luck to you and keep singing. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Lisa Sugarman US writer S2 Ep57 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Lisa Sugarman, a writer and mum of 2 grown daughters from that famous town of Salem Massachusetts, USA. Before having her children Lisa was a newspaper (news and feature) reporter, writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa was a teacher for 15 years in local school system, as a class room teacher, coach administration and one-on-one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older and she working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. in 2009 her column "It Is What it Is" became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This lead her to the opportunity to write books, full of content the helps and inspires families, and in particular mothers, and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. Let the mistakes happen and embrace them. This lead her to the radio in Boston for many years. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, suicide + the death of a parent ** Lisa lost her dad to suicide when she was 10 years old, but didn’t find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later. Now, because of that life-changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention and she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQIA+ community. She lives by the motto "It’s okay that life is messy…because we're all a work in progress." Today in addition to my regular topics, we end up talking a lot about social media, and the role it has played in creating 'helicopter parenting'. and the affects of its portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and parenting expectations. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Lisa's website / The Vomit Booth Read about the Salem Witch Trials We mention the Uvalde School shooting and The Beaumont Children Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman.I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me it really is an absolute privilege and an honor that you've chosen to listen to my podcast. My guest today is Lisa Sugarman. Lisa is a writer and a mum of two grown daughters from that very famous Town of Salem, Massachusetts in the United States. Before having a children Lisa was a newspaper, news and feature reporter writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa spent 15 years working in local schools as a classroom teacher, a coach in administration, and a one on one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older, and she was working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. In 2009 Her column it is what it is, became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This led to the opportunity to write books full of the content that helps and inspires families and in particular mothers and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. This led Lisa to host her radio show in Boston for many years. This episode contains discussion around mental health and suicide and the death of a parent. Lisa lost her dad Jim to suicide when she was 10 years old. But she didn't find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later when she was 45. Now because of that life changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention. And she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQ plus community. She lives by the motto. It's okay that life is messy, because we're all a work in progress. Today amongst the usual topics I like to discuss, we end up talking a lot about social media and the role that it's played in creating helicopter parenting, and the effective it's portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and our parenting expectations. The music you'll hear today is from my trio, LM Joe, which is made up of myself, M Anderson, my sister and her husband, John, we play new age and ambient music. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page. Alison Newman dot net slash podcast. Thanks so much for coming on today. Lisa, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're in America, we're about to you. So we live about 15 miles north of Boston on the east coast of the country. And we're in this cute little, semi famous city of Salem. Wherever you might be in the world, you can recognize that name, because it's got a lot of history attached to it. So we just we just moved actually from my hometown about a mile down the road. A little a little sea coast town and the birthplace of the American Navy. We just moved out maybe nine months ago, we just our girls are grown women now and we didn't need a house in any particular neighborhood anymore. And we just kind of took advantage of the crazy real estate market and sold and moved down the road. So we're in Salem. Oh, very good. So you're getting yourself set up in that special little town is it how many people live there? Is it very big Salem? In Salem? Um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that at this point. I know the exact population but it's a pretty densely populated city and it's it's fairly Large. So there are definitely, definitely a lot of people i We live in an area of Salem that's kind of not in the hustle, we're a little bit removed from where people who are tourists would typically come to see and everything involving the witch trials. And, you know, you know all of that history you would go maybe two or three miles away from where we are, but it's a pretty it's a pretty densely populated little city. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think that pretty much everyone that's listening, probably recognize the name and the connections and the history. Yeah. I remember reading the crucible in year 11, or 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's something like we obviously have our own sort of histories here. But we've got we've got nothing sort of along those lines. So it's really fascinating to sort of, and I don't know how much of that is really true, either. Like, is there a bit of sort of folklore that goes along with? Yeah, there's, there's, there's some lore attached to it, for sure. And it's definitely I'm sure been embellished over the years, but I think, you know, so much of it, believe it or not, is, is actually very true. And it's been very well documented. And I mean, we haven't taken the tours since I was in grade school. And we would, you know, we would always, it would always be like a little junket to Salem to, you know, kind of take advantage of all that history. That's there. So I mean, I, I know that, you know, there is there's a lot of truth, kind of woven into all of those legends as well. So it's, it's a pretty deeply historical spot with so much significance. And it's neat, especially around October, Well, depends on your perspective, if you're from here, you want to be as far away from here as possible. If you're not here, like the entire world seems to converge on Salem, for the month of October. So everybody that that I know, knows to stay far away, because it's a little chaotic. Yeah. It's also kind of cool that everyone was, would be really interesting. Living in a place like that. So tell us a little bit about yourself lay. So what you do what you've done, I guess you can expand for as long or as short as you wish. So the floor is yours. Yeah, I appreciate that. So first and foremost, I mean, I'm I'm a mom, I have two very grown daughters, my youngest just turned 22. And our oldest is turning 25 in another few weeks. So I've been at it for a while that a little motherhood game. I was a teacher in our local school system for many, many years, probably close to 15 years and wore a lot of different hats in kind of in that role was a classroom teacher was a coach worked in administration was a one on one aid supporting just individual children with special needs over the years. So I had a really, really big open wide lens to really kind of view the parent child relationship, that that whole dynamic, the way the whole family system works, the way kids are, are educated and supported. So that's kind of what tracked me over toward what I've been doing most recently, in the last decade or so. I've always been a writer. So before I had children, I was a newspaper reporter for many, many years and wrote for magazines here in the US, and this way pre pre internet and that whole explosion. And we kind of took a break, or I took a break from that and stayed home and raised our daughters. And then it's just so funny how, how things happen. So unexpectedly, like you're you're tracking in one direction, and then you get an opportunity. And it kind of puts you on a on a totally different path. And that's what happened to me. I was working in the school systems. And just for fun, I started writing again, I had never written a column in my life, I was always a news and feature reporter and I just for fun started contributing to my local paper, because I had had some pretty deep connections there when I was in college. And they're always asking, you know, these these little hometown newspapers or I was desperate for people to, you know, to give them content. So I just started writing about what I was living at the time and what I was living with parenthood. So I started writing. And little by little, it just started catching on and people started responding really well to it. And it just birthed this whole brand new career. So the column was syndicated, it's called it is what it is. And it was just syndicated throughout this media organization, it was all over the country and then it kind of, you know, by virtue of the internet, it goes all over the world. So that happened for men. I've got like 12 years 11 or 12 years I was writing the column I still do and from time to time less so because I started focusing on books. And that led me to the opportunity to write books. And I've written a few of them, parenting focused all about kind of how to embrace your perfectly imperfect, this is really the easiest way to understand it. Let the mistakes happen, embrace them, and, and really kind of find the good nuggets that are within that. And then that kind of led me to the radio, and I ended up on the radio for a couple of years here in Boston. And so it's just, it's just been this, this really cool little flow of opportunities that have all kind of centered around creating content that helps support and inspire families and in particular moms. So that's, that's kind of the long answer to the How did I get to this point? And what kind of stuff do I do? So? Yeah, I still very much enjoy writing parenting content, although I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit. And I'm doing a lot of mental health advocacy, and suicide awareness and prevention and doing a lot of speaking and, and writing about that as well. So that that's, that's all interrelated, because it really, it impacts our kids an awful lot. And, you know, it's important to start and have those conversations. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So with your books, do you sort of draw on your own personal, like things that have happened to you, things that you've learned, or, I don't know, wish you'd known that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's exactly where it comes from. That's, that's where everything, just about everything that that I've done has come from, it's all anecdotally based. So it's really just either, you know, stories and experiences from my own childhood, or from, you know, the experience of raising my own children. And all of that experience being in the school system, both in the classroom and kind of in the administration role, and working with parents and kids so closely, and I just started seeing, you know, I started seeing such a pattern with parents and with children and parents were just getting so overwhelmed by this, this invisible need to be the perfect parent to have the perfect kid to make sure that they didn't make any mistakes, to make sure that their kids never fell on their face to make sure that, you know, there was no struggle. And in doing that, and it was all based from a place of love and caring for their children. But they were absolutely crushing their kids with these crazy expectations of how they should behave and what they should accomplish and how, I guess how, just how perfect they should be. And and it was it was really debilitating. And you can see the kids being affected by that and such negative ways. Kids kids couldn't couldn't build resilience, because they couldn't do things for themselves. They weren't allowed to do things for themselves. So I just started voicing my opinion, I guess, is what you could say about how counterproductive I thought that was. And that we really need to let our kids figure it out by failing by trying one way doesn't work. You go another way and, and it just really stirred up. You know a lot in me in terms of wanting to help parents understand that they don't have to be perfectly you can give yourself permission to trump the balls. And, you know, to kind of embrace that madness because parent parenthood, like if you can't laugh at parenthood, then you're in the wrong job, you know, yeah, that's it, isn't it? I've got just after you've said that, I've got that many things I want to ask you. I've got so many questions, I can take you in lots of different directions. So I'm gonna go, let's go. I'm gonna go with so talking. I mean, the phrase that sort of comes to mind when you're talking about that, that method of parenting, that helicopter parenting where you've always got to be over the top of your kids making sure things go right. Like you said, they don't. They don't get that chance to build their resilience because they don't get the opportunity to fail and experience Is that sort of emotions and that sort of stuff? I wonder, because often we talk about different generations and how they were parented and the sort of norms that were around, then, when do you think things started to really change and become this different way of parenting? Because I remember, as a kid, you know, being allowed to go out for most of the day, ride my bike around the neighborhood, do all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, oh, no, you can't do that something will happen to you like, when did that start to change? Do you think and what might have brought about that change? You know, it's funny that you should say that because I talk about that with my daughters, what we you and I have had similar experiences. The town that I grew up in this little coastal Harbor Town, just north of Boston, a mile from where I am right now is just this little peninsula town, surrounded by a harbor, four square miles, we would get on our bikes, there were train tracks, paths all around town, where you could get to and from one end and the other and that's all we did, we would be outside until Billy Fallon's mom rang the bell or blew the slide whistle and like the whole neighborhood would scatter and go home because they knew it was time to go home. But we out for like a second the sun came up. And we'd be on the path and we'd be downtown, we'd be in the harbor, and, and my kids, my kids were bike riders, not to that same degree. But they were the kids playing manhunt. I don't know if it's manhunt is a game that that, you know, it's it's tag, it's just like, all throughout the neighborhood and in the trees and in the fields and whatnot. So it still existed when my kids were young, but I feel like I can't say that there was a catalyst, like, I don't necessarily know that I can say, okay, that at that exact time, because of that exact event, everything shifted. But I do think it was somewhere in between our generation and my children's generation, where, you know, I think, I think meet the social media influence has just brought so much fear, it's done so much good. But it's also done so much damage. And I think that, with that constant connection, and that constant flood of information, and news and, and trauma, we're all living through trauma. I mean, look, no further. I don't know if the news has arrived yet. Of what happened in Texas. Okay, so, and I'm really my heartbreaks. For you guys over there. It's just shocking. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, as as someone who taught for so many years, and as the mom of two daughters, both of whom are teachers currently. You know, it's hard, I have so many teacher friends, and just a mom, and anyone who, of course, especially as a parent, can just hear that, that situation about those those poor children and those teachers who were killed. And it's just, it's devastating. And it's like, but we the reason why I'm bringing that up is because the second that happened, the world knew about it. It was everywhere. It was on, it was buzzing on every phone and every tablet on the planet. And so everyone is sharing in that trauma, everyone is experiencing that fear. Everyone is making plans because of it to protect their children. What else can I layer around my child? How else? How better Can I bubble wrap my child and my family and my world. And so we've got those influences in ways that we never had them before. So on the one hand, having something like social media or a phone or the ability to connect with your kids, when they're off in the world, is great, because it's kind of like that umbilical cord is still partially connected. And that's a comforting feeling. But I think we've leaned too heavily into that, to the point where everything is about instant gratification now. Why is my kid not texting me back? What happened to them? Did they get hit by a car? Did they get abducted? Did they I mean, like, so I think that you know, there's a there's a good side and a bad side to this whole social media phenomenon. But I think that, that right there. If I were going to point to one thing that has really done more damage, it's that because now everyone's hearing from every possible angle in the world. What could happen to your kid if you let them out the door? Yeah, you know, and so I think because of that, we've just, maybe our generation, my generation, I guess, has just clamped down an awful lot harder. Out of fear. Yeah. Yeah, it's very fear driven, isn't it? It's that need to keep people safe or stop, stop the bad thing happening or stop them from feeling upset or bad or, you know, emotions that we see as negative or that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't want to talk about bad stuff. But as an example, there was years and years ago in Australia, there was some children abducted though, called the Beaumont children. And for years and years and years. That was like the only, I guess, episode of that nature that we all knew about it. This was back in the 60s, I think. And so you know that that thing you're saying about, we're all connected now. Any everything in anything that happens? We all hear about it. So there probably was other stuff going on, but we just didn't know about it. Yeah. So once we know about it, we'll go Oh, no. And yeah, go into that fury action. I'm glad you brought up social media, because that was something I was going to ask you about this notion of perfection, the the way that now because we see this curated version of people's lives, we not everybody, but a lot of people want to present the very best of themselves on social media, you know, which is fair enough, I suppose you want to even want to look good or whatever, but unrealistic, to the point where, you know, it's really not reflective of people's lives. And so it's giving off this false sense of perfection. So then everyone else that's consuming that information, starts to think, oh, no, I must be doing something wrong. My life doesn't look like that. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of you agree with? Oh, yeah. Not only do I Gree with it, but I talk about it, often, I write about it even more often. And I really appreciate the fact that you use the word curate, because when I do talk about it, that is always my go to word. Because that is exactly what's happening. People, people are filtering or curating the best of the best of the best. And in most cases, and I mean, you know, there, I think there's now a happy to see now that there seems to be a little bit of a shift, where people are like, No, that's bullshit. Why am I doing that? Why am I why? Why are we only putting this facade out there? It's this veneer of what's you know, of what we think people want to see or what we want to project. And I think people are getting tired of it quickly, because it's sending such a, you know, such a damaging message. And it's creating, you know, we fall as parents into such a comparison trap, and I write about this, my co author and I write a lot about this, in our most recent book, we have an entire chapter devoted to not know, not falling into this comparison trap. And I think the biggest, the biggest suck into that trap, is what we're seeing on social media, and we really can't avoid it. I mean, do you know, do you honestly also know, a human being at this stage of life that does not have some kind of a device? I mean, unless it's like a newborn. And even I think the newborns, there must be like a newborn tablet or something, right? And they give you this push on. So I mean, it's like, granted, you know, people use things to different degrees. And not everybody who has social, you know, social media is on Instagram, and not everyone is part of Facebook or not, but the majority are, and, you know, when you're in that world, it's impossible to avoid seeing what's being put out there. And when you, you look at that, and you start comparing yourself to that, it's, I don't want to use the word traumatizing because I think that that might be a little bit of a strong word to use, but it's it definitely leaves a mark on you. If you're like, Well, wait a minute, like, how come that mom of 12 children is so beautifully, like she's perfect looking and dressed, you know, dressed like to the, to the nines, and she's, you know, she's she's driving her SUV and she's got her coffee in her hand and all of her children have braids. They're all wearing dresses. She's all made up, like, like, come on, like, this is crap. Like people like you know, I know so many moms who are Like, I couldn't even like, find a robe, to put on myself to get my kid to, like, conceal my, my pajamas to drive my kid to school, you know, you know, like throwing kids into into the school, like throw an apple and a handful of Cheerios at your kid and then dump them in the car. And so it's like, we need, we need that reality check. And we need to stop comparing ourselves because it's just so toxic. And it's so unfortunate because it really I think weighs heavily on people. Even though our rational brains most of us are like, okay, come on, this is dumb. Why am I trying to compare myself to that person? My situation is different. There's this different, but it's like human nature. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing you're not when you're, you know, you're scrolling through your Instagram or your Facebook feed, you're not in, you know, switched on rational mode, you're in relaxed looking at stuff mode. So you do you use, that's your first reaction is to go to that, oh, how come? I can't do that? Or how come she can do that? Or, you know, and then yeah, you might think about it later and go, Oh, this is the list of reasons why perhaps, you know, but yeah, we will we go to it? You mentioned that you're interested in mental health issues. Do you find that that a lot of issues with around people's mental mental health comes from this kind of bombardment of social media and the comparisons and that kind of stuff? I do? I absolutely do. And, you know, again, I'm the mom of two children. And I think back to that time, which was not long ago, it was in my children's lives, when they didn't have this influence, they didn't have this gateway, into a world of other kids their age doing doing all these things. And you know, they didn't have the ability to see the, the birthday party or the bar mitzvah, or the event that they weren't invited to, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can now and, you know, they couldn't get harassed. In this way. It was like, back in the day, when you went to school and you got bullied on the playground, which was bad enough. Now, it's like, there's nowhere in the world you can't get bullied, because you've got, you know, this vehicle that allows that to happen, right in your hand all the time. So I think, again, it's like, you know, I keep using social media, and technology as kind of the catch all for why so many things have escalated. But it's in all fairness, like it is it exists and, and impacting kids mental health is definitely one our mental health to forget about just kids, but it's just as bad, you know, for us to see the, you know, the the girls trip that a whole bunch of the moms, you know, went on, and you didn't go or the big garden party that someone had or, you know, day on the boat that you weren't invited to, it's, you know, it's impossible to ignore it. I think that it depends on who you are. And it depends on how seriously you take that, being bombarded with that all the time. But, I mean, look at the suicide rates in young children right now in adolescent and teenage children. And it's startling, and it's going up. And, you know, every other day, you turn on the news, and you hear about a child who was cyber bullied, and they jumped off a bridge and you hear about a child, you know, who was shamed, you know, who was shamed because of their size? Or, you know, something, you know, that it's, there's bigotry, there's, like, every negative thing in the world can flow through your phone just as easily as every positive thing, and our kids are right there on the other side of it. So I think it's, it's absolutely had a really negative impact. And it's, it's sad. It's sad, and I don't know, you know, aside from putting things like parental controls in place, and really just understanding what your kids are looking at when you're younger kids are a part of that even even as they navigate it and start to be part of it and grow into it. Like we've got to, we've got to really be super focused on what they're focused on. It's too easy to let a lot of the negativity slide Under our radar, and still reach them. And I think it's hard for some parents too, because because we didn't grow up in this world of what's happening to be actually actually aware of what is happening, because I mean, a lot of teenagers aren't, you know, super forthcoming with what's going on in their lives or what they're consuming on their phones. So yeah, to sort of, I don't know, yeah, I don't want to say educate yourselves, because that sounds really patronizing. But, you know, being aware talking to other parents and sort of finding out what sort of stuff your child could be into, or being exposed to, so you actually can help them out and put some boundaries in place, perhaps to sort of limit what they're what they're exposed to. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say to say that I don't think it's patronizing to say that at all, I think it's necessary to say that and even more necessary to act on that, because we're that line of defense, it is our job when they aren't rational enough as young people and they're developing and, you know, those connections are all being made in their brains. It's up to us to create those boundaries. And to keep talking the same talk. And I don't want to say it's rhetoric, because it's not rhetoric, it's important. But it's one of those things as parents, especially young kids, that we have to just keep saying over and over again until you want to throw up and until your kids want to throw up because they're so sick of hearing it, but we keep saying it anyway. Yeah. I want to turn to still looking at social media as a little bit. But the something I really love to talk about guests as talk about with guests on my show is mum guilt and or mommy guilt or mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. What are your thoughts about that whole topic? Oh, wow, I have a lot of thoughts about mom guilt, I also at times have had plenty of mom guilt. It, it is a toxic emotion, because it keeps us from doing the things that I think we need to do. And instead causes us to do things that we think we're supposed to do, like keep our young children busy from the second that they open their eyes in the morning, until the second thing go to bed at night. And we are so afraid of and so consumed by guilt, if we don't have, you know, a four course dinner on the table every night, if we don't have the house clean, if we don't have activities planned, if we don't have social events, if we like all all these things in that and this, this ties in all of this mom guilt ties very heavily into the whole comparison issue. Because we're all looking at everything that everybody around us is doing. And I'm not just talking about on social media, I'm talking about just like in general, we're looking at what everybody is doing around us. And we're feeling such intense feelings of guilt because we're not doing what that family is doing. Or we're that mom is doing and you know, and we're feeling guilty about things that we shouldn't feel guilty about. Like if you love your child, and you're dedicated to supporting your child and inspiring and encouraging your child and, you know, and you're not gonna let your child go hungry, like it's okay, if they have a bowl of cereal for dinner. It's okay, if the laundry is not done. It's okay. If you didn't get dressed today. It's okay. Like, that's the stuff we have to start emphasizing more than the whole idea of checking off every single box or else our day sucks, and we accomplished nothing. And we're guilt ridden because we didn't accomplish all the things that we feel like we're supposed to do. So it's a huge issue. And, and again, you know, it also is another issue similarly in the way that more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster, and I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest In the same way, I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into it, because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection, if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what yeah, it just serves no purpose to anybody does. It's such a, it's a horrible thing. I hate it. I just think it's a load of crap. It is even just makes me so cross. It's. Yeah. And I just want to hug all the moms all at once every moment, like, let go. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I had, I had some ladies on, I had like, four, four mums on at one time for a Mother's Day special few weeks ago. And they one of the ladies had written a letter to mum guilt. And it was like, Mum, guilt, you're a bitch, I need to read that it was really good. Really. And that's the thing, like, as well as like, not, like admitting that we're not going great admitting that, you know, I don't want to say a failure, I'm putting that in air quotes. But you know, that it actually is normal to not be doing everything, as well as you had hoped, like, these expectations that we feel like, we've got to do it this way. You know, for whatever reason, because we've been judged, or because someone told us, we should do that this way. Or, for whatever reason, you know, and to say, I actually, I don't buy into that stuff, you know, it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to say, and then to share with other mums. And they might go, oh, actually, I was feeling a bit like that. But I didn't know whether I should feel like that, you know, doubting yourself. And creating this whole movement of this, you know, giving the middle finger to monkeys. I know, I love that. And I appreciate and support that so much. Because I think that so much of what motivates us to, to, to, to reach a place of guilt, or to compare ourselves to other people in the first place comes from, directly from our ego, as we're doing this thing that so many millions of people before us have done and so many people alongside us are doing. And there's this internal voice that says like, Oh, of course, like, I can totally do it, like they do it, like I should be able to do that. Right? I should be able to have six kids, and also run a business and also have a like, a Better Homes and Gardens house and look amazing. And besides to and, you know, it goes on and on and on. But, and I think that when we can't, or don't do the things that, you know, we feel are the things that should be done. You know, that's, that's when it chips away at us. And, and it kind of breaks us it breaks our spirit, because then it's like, well, how come they can do it? I can't show that I'm failing at it. Yeah, that's the reason that we've we've got a hold up that, again, that perfection that everything's fine this facade of, you know, I see. Yeah. I really think people are getting more comfortable with that feeling of saying that, that they you know, not projecting the perfect world. I think I think we are getting better slowly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I've been begging people to talk about now, for? Well, well over a decade. You know, I moderate a group on Facebook that I that I started now, it's been years, it's been several years ago. And it's on Facebook, it's a public group, and it's called the vomit booth. And it's just a place that marries kind of everything that I do in terms of, you know, writing and speaking and kind of philosophies of parenthood, the humanistic common sense views of parenthood, and I brought it to this place where it could have an interactive component and people could actually come into this group and talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff and bond together and share together and the idea of it being a place where you could kind of like hurl out vomit up whatever it is, that's that's troubling you or holding you back and that people someone's there to hold your hair back while you let it out. And you can listen and vent and, and some incredible conversations over the past several years have come out because it's a place that I really encourage people to like If you're not okay, if you're struggling with XY or z, if you feel inadequate, like, let it out, share it, start that conversation, because I guarantee you that there are 10 million other people feeling the same way. But nobody wants to be like, nobody wants to be the first one to talk in the elevator. Yeah, like, just but once somebody does, everybody starts talking. So that's what we want to do. Yeah, that reminds me that analogy of the first one to talk when I in Australia, we have this thing called Moms groups where after you have your baby, they, they put you with complete strangers, they're just people that happen to have their child at the same time as you. So you put in with these people that you have nothing else in common with, apart from your baby came out at the same time you need. That's all you need. That's the common denominator. And I remember one of the first sessions we went to, and I was, you know, things were not going well. And everyone goes around the circle and says how they're going. And everyone seemed to be going really well. And I was sitting there thinking, why is everyone going so good? What is wrong with me? You know, what's wrong with my baby? Why am I struggling? And then, when it was my turn, I think I said something. I tried to make a joke like, Oh, I'm glad you're all going so great, because I'm not and then just My life sucks. Right now. I shared all the crap things about the no sleep and the sore boobs and we couldn't breastfeed. And when I broke the ice with that, that's when everyone started to be more honest. And it was like, Oh, thank God, like we can be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah. That's what it takes. And then then, then everybody comes out of the woodwork. And then everyone's like, Oh, but wait, but me, but this, but that we're outdoing each other with worse stories. Exactly. And, and you know, not not to take the focus off of parenting, which is what I know we're spending so much time talking about to circle it back for a second to mental health. That is exactly. And this applies to children. And parents, obviously, it applies to mental health in the sense that once we start vocalizing are not being okay, or our struggle, or our fear, or whatever it is, once we put it out there, there is almost always going to be someone who will then connect with that, and then we'll have some kind of a similar experience or know someone or, or understand on a deeper level, and then it just, it's like self perpetuating, then all of a sudden, that dialogue starts and it's that's why it's so important what whatever space you're in, in the world, whether it's the mental health space, or the parenting space, or the marriage space. It's not communication, that can change everything that can elevate you from a place of silently suffering or feeling shame or being stuck to it elevates you to a place where okay, I'm not alone anymore. And other people know what I feel like and other people may have done some things can suggest some things that will, that will be useful to me. And that's why this there's so much incredible power in our shared experiences. But they do no one any good if we don't share them Yeah. Yeah, that mental health is at least interesting one, I think. People are really afraid to share that. It's like, the way I sort of compare like, if you've got a broken leg, you're not going to be scared to go to the doctor to say, Hey, could you fix my leg? But for some reason, we were so worried about being judged by I don't know, it's, it seems like we've we've failed somehow, but we're not actually in control of the, you know, the chemical imbalances in our brains. But we've sort of learned, I guess, from previous generations that that's something you don't talk about. And, you know, I had an experience where I had quite bad postnatal depression with both my children. And I shared I did a podcast years ago with a mental health group in my town. And then that then snowballed into it was like a group of community people that were known in the community members that that would be identified, sort of through whether they like it as me as a singer. There was like, people that own shops like just pick faces that you know, in the community, and we ended up with these great big banners. They put us on these banners and put us all around town with the little like cute barcode scan, listen and listen to the podcast. And my dad said to me, are you sure you want everyone to know what happened to you? I said, Yes, that I do. This is exactly why I'm doing it. Because I want people to know that it is normal is nothing to be ashamed of. It's like normalizing this discussion around mental wellness or mental unwellness. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, that generation, it's like, Oh, don't don't talk about that sort of stuff, you know? Well, we had no, you're right. 1,000%. Right. And I love the fact that you did that, because that is what we should all be doing. And I know, it's a lot harder for some than others. There are a lot of people out there who are, you know, very introverted, and very uncomfortable sharing. But the fact of the matter is that there has always been such a deep dark stigma associated with mental illness. I mean, I think back to, you know, another generation before me to my parents generation, though, I lost my father to suicide when I was 10 years old, thank you. And I didn't find out about his suicide until I was in my mid 40s. So 35 years later, I found out about it. Not at all, because my mother felt like it was shameful, had nothing to do with it whatsoever, my mother was just strictly trying to protect me, I had already lost my person to have told me at that time, when I was 10 years old, that it was his decision would have shattered me beyond repair. So in that sense, I'm so grateful that she did that. But it had nothing to do with a stigma. But still, at that time, and for so many decades later, until just really in recent history, it isn't, wasn't something you talked about, it was something that automatically, by default, gave you kind of a black mark, and made you feel less than or made you appear less than even if it didn't, it did in your own head because of the narrative that was associated with it. And, you know, it's like the same reason why parents were so reluctant to say that their children had learning disabilities, or that their children had mental health issues. And same thing, they didn't, they didn't want that stigma to be attached, but it's only in doing what you did, or what I began to do, which is to talk in every space I possibly can about my father's story, to help encourage other people to share their story, or their trauma or their grief or their, their illness, because that's how we change. That's how we normalize it. And that's how we change that narrative. You know, I think of it in in so many different ways, when I think of what happened to my father, and how it's impacted me in my life. You know, there's the loss that I felt as a 10 year old, then there's the loss that I felt, so I have grieved his death now twice in my life, you know, once his child and once as a grown, married mother of two children. And, you know, I think about the power that's within that story, both as a child and a survivor of suicide loss, and someone who has had to kind of travel that arc of forgiveness. And I also think about it in terms of like, when I really found out the truth, my girls were teenagers, I had one, just entering high school, I had one who was graduating from high school, and, you know, my oldest, has, has had mental health issues and has had anxiety and some depression and is very open about it. And, you know, getting help for it has changed your life, it's changed, you know, because as you said a little while ago, these are things it's like, if you were born, if you were born with six fingers on your hand, you would be someone who was born with six fingers on your hand, and that was beyond your control. And in that same exact way, like someone's born with a heart condition or someone God forbid, has cancer. It's, it is no different. The mental health challenges, issues, diagnoses, whatever you want to call them, that we have as human beings like that is that is beyond our control. And we need to be treated in the same way that you would treat someone with heart disease or cancer or whatnot or a broken leg. Yep. So yeah, my my, my goal at that time once I kind of arrived at a place of really, truly understanding why my father, I don't know the reason why I will never know the reason why. And that haunted me for a long time. It doesn't anymore. I just know that my father had so much mental illness that was undetected by anybody in our family, but he it was not being here anymore, whether it was for our benefit or his was the only solution. And so I've come to accept that but I've also accepted the fact that my father had so much gin netic like the genetic cocktail in my poor dad's body, from where he grew up and how he grew up, and the mental illness that existed in his family, like that's in my destiny that's in my children. And what really inspired me, I think, to start talking in general about it to my children in particular, was, like, you guys may not feel this way or that way now, or have these feelings or emotions or thoughts now, maybe when you're 22, maybe when you're 26, maybe when you're 30, maybe, you know, these, these things don't always surface immediately. And I wanted them to know like, look, this is, here's your DNA. Here's, here's what could be in your DNA. And here's what it might look like in you. Because here's what it looks like in him, I have certain tendencies or issues. I'm an empath. I feel everything as though I'm grabbing on to like an electrified wire, all the good and the bad in my life house, and I feel it like I'm holding a live wire. And I know, that's how it manifested in me, but I wanted to have that conversation with my kids so that they would know and be able to have an open line of communication. Like, I'm okay, I'm feeling weird. I need to talk to someone I knew. So, yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that it's worth. It's yeah, thank you. It's really great. So that, that you're able to share it. Because like you said, there's so many people that can't for whatever reason, and that sort of reason why I feel like I sort of want to help those people in my own way by sharing my story, because maybe they can't, but that, like you said before, you know, they might take something from it, they might go, oh, I can empathize with that I, I experienced that. Or I understand what you mean by that. And that might give them the little nudge to, to reach out and do what they need to do. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Identity is another thing that I really love talking about this, you know, that we're, we're a woman, we're having this amazing life. We're doing all these things, and then we become a mother. And then it seems that our sole purpose is then to, you know, be a mother, that we might lose other components of ourselves that we had three children, or all? Yeah, yeah. So Oh, and yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people through these podcasts. And there's so many varying degrees of experience with that, which is wonderful. Because, you know, we're all different in that it's great to share. Have you got some thoughts about that? Topic? Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts, a lot of odds, a lot of experience with it. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely lost for a period of time, for sure. In my life. Probably around the time that I chose to stay home, my husband and I agreed, you know, that, that I would stay home. He was, you know, the primary breadwinner at the time. And, and it made sense, just economically, that I would be the one. And I was in that place that you talked about, like that incredible place of, Oh, I know exactly what my purpose is. My purpose is those two little humans and, and teaching them and growing them and nurturing them and loving them and doing everything for them. And you get lost in that place. And I'm not saying that that's not a beautiful place, and you have children, and obviously you have children to be devoted to those children and raise them and whatnot. But as I think we've all realized, over the past, I would say probably five years or so 10 years or so, maybe just even five self care is something self care and preserving or creating our own identity simultaneously, is so necessary, it is imperative that we do that. And so many of us just kind of pack up our former identity, and just put it in a little box and put it in the back of the closet. And that's where it stays. And we're so you know, laser focused on our kids. That then all of a sudden, and it happens all of a sudden, you know, it is gradual, but then it's not because all of a sudden you're at that point where you're like, well, they don't need me at all, for almost anything except maybe some cash from time to time. And laundry and food. So, and then all of a sudden you're like What the hell am I What am I supposed to do now? Like, where do I go? What do I do and, and it's really hard. And I was definitely in that space. And what really did help me was kind of this organic, tripping and falling into this life within the school system that I had. And that became a path that felt right to me for so many years. And for so many reasons. You know, and then I had a chance to, you know, write books for a living and do what I'm doing now. And it evolved, but it was only because I basically, like pulled on my big girl pants and said, I, I have to have something that is for me, I have to figure out what that is, and who that is. And you know, and honor what I need for my life. Because I've just spent the last, you know, 20 something years, giving my children what they needed. And the more attention that I started paying on myself. And the more I did for the benefit of my own growth, and the more I prioritized that the healthier I was everywhere else in my life, like bottom line, and it was work. It was working, and it continues to be work. But it's such powerful, unnecessary work. Hmm. You know, so lately, That's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's something that I, I could not exist without things for myself, honestly, I just go, like, go more mental than I am now. No, I get it, I get it have to have, it's just, ah, I don't know. I, it's so it is so necessary. And you know, it's interesting, like, like, I was saying before, like, I couldn't, I couldn't be a stay at home mom, like I just, I have so much respect for for moms that do that, because I just couldn't do it. You know, and we're all different in what we need. And, and that kind of stuff. I just Yeah, I don't know. But first of all, there's nothing I love better than a good Blab. That's, you know, that's where all the best ideas and you know, and experiences come from our blabbing. But like, I just have such respect for for all the different varieties of parenting that there are out there, like you've got the stay at home mom, or you've got the mom that those the hybrid, or you've got the mom that goes into the office every day or, you know, and every thing in between. And, you know, there's, there's just so much credit, I think to be given, for people who understand, like, this is where I'm really good. This is where I'm really great. And this is where I need to make sure that a lot of my attention is focused, and but it's also over here too. So it's like, you know, it's just it, we're constantly building on ourselves. And, and, and I love that there's so much inspiration for doing it in so many different ways. And there isn't one way that's, that's better or more accomplished than any other way. They're just great examples. And that just inspires me when I see that. Yeah. And it kind of this, this, someone's going off on a tangent never it kind of makes me it makes me sad for a lot of sets the word, but it Yeah, it does. It makes me sad for for previous generations of women whose role it was exclusively to be a mother, you know, like, there wasn't a choice. It was like, when you got pregnant, you left work, because you had to give the jobs to the single women, right? When they got married, they had to quit their jobs. You know, just all the things that women would have wanted to do. You know, and if they did do it, they were judged so harshly for, you know, doing the wrong thing. And putting that in air quotes again. You know, just the opportunities that we have now, because of the work that previous generations have done to get us to this point is tremendous. Because I just think if I hadn't lived in that era of my grandmother, yeah, I would. I would know, you and I would have gone on an island somewhere. Like another community where we could do anything we wanted because i It's funny, I often think about that my daughter, my oldest and I seem to fall into this conversation all the time about different periods of time, where we felt she she would have preferred living during like, caveman era for something she's got lots of wrist very funny, lots of reasons why, but with that I don't need to go into but that was like her period of time. And I, you know, I would have loved to have lived I think during the 60s. I mean, I was a child of the 60s but I was an infant. I would have liked to have had that experience because it was such an explosive period of time in the world. But I also think that you I don't think I could have survived it just like you like, I know, like, I would have known if I was the person I am today that back then I would have been like, Oh, hell no, like, I'm gonna work. No, like equal salary equal opportunity. I'm gonna work from home, my husband's gonna raise the kid, you know, and I think I made it would have made a lot of enemies back then because I just wouldn't have tolerated it. But yeah, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those, you know, those pioneers who came before us for sure. Absolutely. stuff without them. Oh, yeah. See, even like, when I watch, I really love period dramas. I can't even think like the Jain is and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you just think those those skills there are in? What's that one that's on the British and, you know, you get a taste for it. There's one of the daughters, who just, you know, wants to do our own thing doesn't want to get married, you know, you just think how much of that would have gone on. But no one would have had a choice. It's just you had to do this, you had to marry this bloke for money, because it kept your family going, you know, all the sacrifices that women would have made to think Christ at night. Just, it's, it's really disturbing. Like, read it. i Yeah, it's disturbing. And I also feel like such deep sadness that so many generations of women had to live such a pressed lives, and we're so limited and these brilliant, capable humans, were forced to do like, one of three things. Either you were going to be a teacher, or you were, you know, a mother or a homemaker or that was it. And, um, yeah, we we've, we've definitely come a long way. And, you know, I'm excited to see how much further we can go. But like, I'm just really grateful that I'm kind of living in the period of time that I'm living right now. Yeah. I would not have made it yet. You, so you mentioned your daughter there. Briefly, I wanted to ask, as a mom of two girls, is it important for you to sort of role model the fact that as a mom, you can do anything you want? That? You can? You can? Yeah, the sky's the limit, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been incredibly important to me. And I think that the reason why it's, it's so deeply embedded in me is because of my own mother, and because of what my own mother has both gone through and accomplished in in her life. I mean, my mother, you talk about, like what people were supposed to do at certain times, you know, in history, my mother, when she went to school, went to high school was, was just such a strong and capable student she loved, she loved school, she loved the whole learning process. But she came from a family that was a very lower income family, everybody worked, and she wanted to go off to college, they couldn't afford college. So as soon as she graduated with honors from high school, she went to work with my grandmother. And so, you know, then my mother got married and worked a part time job in a nursing home. And my all of all of my experiences with you know, when I think of strong women, it all traces back to what my mother did. My mother was became a widow when she was 40. She had never had a college degree. She had to raise now a family by herself, a child by herself live in a home by herself. And my mother went back to school, six months after my father passed away, went back to college for five years at night, got her degree, worked, got a good job, you know, was the most present and hands on parent and it was because of that, like, I saw that. I saw that, you know, my mother and I used to do homework together in her bedroom at four and 5am in the morning, because that's the only time she could do it. She wanted to do it in a way that it wouldn't disrupt our dynamic. And so I started doing that with her and it just she and she alone was the one that that proved to me that like the sky is the limit. You can do anything that you set your mind to that women are so resilient. Humans are so resilient and I always wanted my daughters to feel that way. So it's, you know, when I started getting opportunities to do the things that I really wanted to do, like, I wanted to be on the radio, I wanted to write books, I, you know, I wanted to put myself out there, it was scary as hell, because, you know, you put content out there on a regular basis, and you know, that not everybody receives what you put out there well, and I was like, nope, gonna, gonna go gonna go ahead and do it. And as a result, you know, my, I've watched my daughters grow into their independence and want to just kind of, like, grab life by the throat and say, here I come. And it's beautiful. And it's, it's necessary, and if it doesn't come from us, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to be wired that way in their life. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah, when they get from us, and, and my husband too, is, is has always been so is, you know, inspiring in that way, and supportive and, you know, has built us up and motivated us and encouraged us to, you know, and supported us to get out there and do all the things. You know, so having those positive influences really makes a huge impact. Yeah, that's it is it? It's like they, if they grow up with that, that that positive messaging from the beginning, it's like, that's, they're gonna take that through their lives and keep passing it on. And, you know, that just keeps rolling on all that. All that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Something I've just started talking to moms about, I'm gonna make it an official topic, because I'm getting really interested in this lately. It's funny how like, like, you're talking before how you get led in certain ways, and you do different things that you might have been planning. Same happens with, like, the topics I talk about, they sort of evolve over time. And one thing that keeps coming up is this, the value, a big thing is through the pandemic, when things got shut down, as particularly in Australia, you know, we had the restriction on movements between our states, but our sports people, mainly sports men, were able to basically do whatever they liked, or the football and the soccer or continued, but the arts and anything sort of creative, like performance, you know, the shows, all that sort of stuff, that all got shut down. And that sort of is sort of sparked a bit of a, a conversation or a thoughts around the value that we place on the arts, and then that sort of snowballed into the value that we place on a mother that is a creator, you know, is it? Is it okay for her to do that? Because that's not a roll. Putting that in air quotes again. Yeah, you know, she's meant to raise children. So how do we view the mother? That is the Creator? Do you have any thoughts on that? I've just spread me sweat on you. Yeah, no, I like I like when people throw questions like that at me that I don't see coming. You know, I think that it goes back to what we talked about a little while ago, that we, we and I say we, in terms of women, mothers have had to fight for our position. And, and it's been a very challenging fight. And, you know, I think by default, we, you know, when you think of parents, you naturally just automatically assume that the mother is going to be that prime caregiver. And that that has to be kind of the ultimate responsibility that, you know, that overshadows any other thing that that woman may be that you know, that she she may be a professional, she may be an artist, she may be a creator, any of those things, like, we've got to shove all that aside for 18 or so years. And we've got to focus on on, you know, the mom being the mom. I think, I think it's trending, but I don't know what you're seeing in Australia now that we're, I don't want to say that we're out of a pandemic, because we are by no means out of it. But I think that you know, I don't want to put it in these terms, but I think it is just, it's just but in these terms by default, you talk about like, oh, well, it was okay for the footballers and the men to keep doing what they were doing. Well, they were making money. It was commercial, they were making money. And I'm not to say that artists like I know that you're a singer and a songwriter, and you know, and those who are kind of deep within the arts aren't making money but they sure as hell aren't making money on the same scale, as you know, professional teams and things like that. So I think that they just got a free pass. Yeah. And we still had to stay kind of, you know, had to be kept in this role of, Oh, you guys have to be there to take care of everything else. While you know, well, well, you know, the money is being made. And, you know, there's, you know, the energy surrounding this, these, these sports and, and what comes from them has to be supported, you guys have to do the rest because by virtue of you know, parenting, I mean, it's you know, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of caregivers are moms are women. Not that there aren't plenty of stay at home dads and caregivers who are dads, but that's our role. And we have to just keep kind of breaking out of that. That, that place of that identity. And, and I think it all goes, it travels right back to the whole, you know, self care and identity conversation that we had a few minutes ago. Where's it we can't tolerate that anymore. That's the thing. We have to say, our art or our craft or our inspiration, or our creativity is just as important. And just as as necessary, and we have to fight for it. And it sucks that we have to do so much active promoting it and fighting for it. But we do and we have to do that collectively. And that's that's how we change that tide. Yeah. You know, your thoughts about it? Yeah, the thing that, yeah, then the monetary thing is a big one, isn't it? Because we obviously live in a capitalist society. So money drives pretty much everything. And that's something that has really been annoying me lately, too. It's like, because because what you're doing doesn't have a similar monetary value to what someone else is doing. It's just automatically not given the credit that the other thing is given. And that's something that annoys me. Oh, and, and I think it annoys me too. And I'm glad that we're talking about it, because it's by virtue of conversations like this, like whoever it is, that's listening to us right now. If they share that feeling, well, then that's, then there's a domino effect there. And then this conversation extends beyond you and I and extends beyond the podcast, and then it gets other people talking and gets other people aware. And then there's, then we have to kind of collectively not tolerate it anymore, recognize it? And then start talking about it so that it can be addressed. And it can change. Absolutely, yeah. And I think an example that I always go to, with this show, whenever we start talking about value, monetary value, and how society generally, judges creativity, or the arts. There was a, I'm gonna get this story wrong every time I feel like I change it every time I tell it. But one of my guests gave me an example of how her and her sister in law both had young children that the grandma was going to be looking after, while the moms were working. The grandma would look after the sister in law's children, because she was going to a proper job in a proper office, putting their near quotes again. But she wouldn't look after the artists children, because she was just fluffing it out. She wasn't actually working. And I'm praying that air quotes get. And that's just, I mean, that's could be potentially a generational thing too. But oh, sure, for sure. Yeah, it's just that kind of view of the arts and mother's creating, it just gives me the sheets and really, you know what it is? I think it's not it's like it's there's a stigma about it, that you're like taking your one in a million shot. Like if you think of, of someone who's a singer, songwriter, you know, you're doing that as a as a child or young person, you'd come home and tell your parents I'm not going to conventional following the conventional path and going to college. I'm going to pursue my degree in acting or my my acting, passion or my music, passion or my songwriting, passion, whatever it is. And I think that because it there's such a minority of people who become successful on a level that people equate with success, like you have to have like an album out to be successful. You have to have a book out to be successful. You know what I mean? There's so much. There's so many different degrees of success within that but I think that that it's it's based on? Well, it's not really legitimate, like, you're just, you know, you're just writing, you know, some some fluffy little songs here or there or you're, you know, you're painting some pretty little pictures here and there that there's no real substance or value or, or monetary piece that you can attach. So that it's like, it's it legitimized. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think that's where a good deal of the issues come from. And, you know, you think of these proper tracks, college leads to job leads to financial security. Well, people are only now just recognizing that that is not the only way. That is not the only path that is not the only measure of success like that, that that dollar sign cannot, cannot be attached to the word success anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it just reminded me of this conversation, my son, my oldest son's 14, and he's just having to start choose his subjects for next year school. So this, you know, the pathway to whatever job he wants to do, they're starting the subjects now. And I keeps my husband's a financial planner. So humans are completely different brains, the way we think about a thing. And I keep saying to him, just do something that you enjoy doing, you know, find the thing you're passionate about, work out, if there's job around that, you know, if there's not one, make one, you know, what I mean? Like, find something that you love to do. And then my husband's like, I'll make sure you get enough money. So it's like, yeah, covering it from both sides. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Because I mean, look, we can't ignore the fact that bills have to be paid. Our kids at some point, down the line are going to have to be self sufficient. They're going out, they're going to need to live on their own, or they're going to have to buy food and gas and, and, you know, support all the things that, you know, are involved in living independently. But it's like, it's it just bums me out, when we attach like, well, you have to do you have to have a six figure job to do that well to mean that, that you are successful. And it's, it's crap. And it's setting our kids up, to be really disillusioned about doing what they really want. It's, you know, it's setting them up to believe that they shouldn't do what they really want. They should do what they really have to do. Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep it real in the sense that our children do have to learn how to support themselves. But at the same time, too, we can't, we can't make them believe that, you know, there's only one way to do that. And there's only one level at which they should aspire to do that. Yeah, that's it, isn't it. The other thing that I think is changing when we're talking about money, and, and things, there's the whole culture, I don't know. I certainly noticed over here, but it's changing now, but this culture on social media of this hustle, and you've got to always be doing something and, you know, I can't think of any, like, Girlboss and all these sort of hashtags. And it's like, you have to be driving really hard. And it's just, it's exhausting. Like, you just think when do you have time when, like, this self care, you know, actually, resting rest is not a reward for doing rest is, you know, should be something that we do naturally, because our bodies aren't supposed to go full bore all the time. You know, that culture around that, I feel like is, is definitely shifting, which is really good. It definitely is. I mean, you know, there's definitely this population that believes, especially these millennials, who believe like, you've got to have a side hustle. And you've got to also have a side hustle. And you've got to be in constant motion, and you've got to be that much more driven and that much more successful and that much more capable. And, and I think that's just coming from a place like in particular with women, it just comes from everything that you and I have already talked about in terms of like, we're kind of fighting for a position we're fighting still, to be taken seriously to be viewed equally, to be respected to, you know, and so it's, it's almost like we just, you know, we have to just go at it a lot harder to be taken even more seriously. And that's unfortunate that we that we kind of innately feel that way Yeah, it's just, it's unfortunate. And I hope that as as time goes on, and we begin to kind of normalize success, you know, you know, across across the gender spectrum, like it's, it's, you know, be just as successful as a man or a woman anything. That's, you know, it's going to take time for, I think, us to let go of that, that internal drive. Because I think it's burning a lot of people out, it's really hurting people out. You know, and I think it's causing people to be, you know, to put themselves in positions that they might not want to put themselves in, because they, you know, or do things in terms of like, jobs and opportunities, just because they feel like they have to versus they want to. Yeah, so hopefully those two scales will eventually balance. Hmm. Yeah. composure of hustle the way we do? Oh, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, it's funny, like, all this stuff that is ingrained in us as, as kids and growing up like, you always had, like college, like we call it University over here, but it doesn't have the same I don't think has the same sort of end goal. Like for you guys, like every, I'm making an assumption, but on TV shows and movies, it's like, everyone goes to college. Over here, uni is not, we don't all go to uni, it's like, if you get a job out of school, that's almost the best thing you can do. But I remember, like, like, my dad worked really long hours. You know, I think a lot of us grew up with that, that nine to five, or, you know, eight to six sort of culture around you, your parents or your your dad working. And it's like, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, actually, I don't really like this. And it's like, you start to no question stuff and see what people around you are doing. I remember the first time I realized that, I had a friend who was only working part time. And like this was when I was, you know, just out of school working as like, how can you do that? Are you supposed to be working full time? This is like, No, it was a foreign concept. From what I'd grown up, we'd say, you know, again, these little changes. And, yeah, well, it's like the whole millennial mindset. Now. And I talk about this a lot with my older daughter in particular, because even though there's only three years in between our girls, it was a, it's a big enough gap that my oldest mindset about certain things is quite different than my youngest. And they're both very, very hard workers. You know, my oldest is in graduate school right now to be a teacher. And she's also working full time and my youngest works full time in the school system. But it's funny, like, you look at the millennial, the millennial mind nowadays, and they're all like, I don't want to be an I'm not going to be in an office, I'm not going to take that job that I'm applying for, if it means I actually have to go into an office or if it means I have to travel, they're like, no, no, I'm really focusing on my work life balance right now. Like that whole generation is not having it at all. And I think too, that you know, and this goes back to one of the, like, if you have to attach a silver lining to what's happened pandemic wise, it's allowed us to do so many things from home that we otherwise just that weren't allowed before. And so it's brought the world much closer, it's made everyone and everything much more accessible as the upside. And, you know, I just look at the way that my children are now and all of these millennials are like, yeah, um, so I've been working from home for like, the last 18 months, and I'm really not planning on continuing my company, if my company is not going to allow us to do that, you know, it's just so funny. You know, and now they're all like, converting vans, and living van life and working remotely from like, deserts and, you know, and, and beaches. And, and I absolutely know that if I had been born now, if I was my 25 year old age, I would 1,000% be working remotely, I would have like a Ford van that was converted, and I would be like on the coast of Australia somewhere down the road from you, and I take home from a van and you know, and and they're they're not settling for that so they things so I guess the reason why I'm saying all that about my own kids is because it's just proof that that that tide has changed. thing that they're prioritizing. They're worse. And they're prioritizing that, that work life balance and that self care a lot more in this generation. And they're not tolerating the idea of the whole, like, nine to five and the way that it used to be like, he's so good, it's wonderful. Yeah, that's interesting about during the pandemic, like all this stuff that people would sit on, that's never possible. You can't do this, and you can't do that. And it's like, actually, you can. It's wonderful. You know, and I don't know, we learned a lot. I mean, it was horrible, still is a horrible thing that, you know, a lot of families and people have gone through, which is been really not very nice. But there has been some positives come out for, for the whole of humanity, I think, looking at things differently and challenging. Yeah. And it's that old saying, like, you know, why do we do it this way? Because we've always done it that way, you know, that, that? And I think that's a real sort of, I don't know, almost a masculine mindset. And I want to say that it sounds nasty, but no, reminds me of something my dad would say. Yeah, no, I get it. I understand why you would say that. It's, it's just because historically, that has been the mindset. That's the way things were for generations. You know, think of the hierarchy who it was that instituted those ideas and those values and you're not wrong. Yeah, I don't want to blame all the boys but we're finger pointing at you guys history. Have you got anything you want to share that you're working on at the moment or future projects coming up? Anything you want to give a shout out to and share? Where people can find you online? And that kind of stuff? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. I think I mentioned a little earlier that one of the things that's got a lot of my focus right now is mental health, and suicide prevention and awareness. And that that actually slides right into the project that I'm working on right now, which is another book that really uses my father's story, the story of my my father suicide, as just a vehicle for starting conversations and for helping people just through my own personal experience, helping people kind of travel that that road to forgiveness, if they're a survivor of suicide loss. And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of deep in the weeds with right now, doing a ton of work on and then working to be a crisis counselor with a crisis agency here in, in the United States, that I'm actually very, very excited about because that kind of all goes hand in hand. So I'm working on that. And just continuing to do lots of speaking and writing about parenting, just the way that I'm doing now on all the outlets here in the States and around, you know, around the world that that help families be happy. So that's what I'm working on. And you can find me anywhere. I mean, you can find me, my website is Lisa sugarman.com. And everything I'm working on is kind of in that one spot. Instagram is Lisa underscore Sugarman, the Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, you can join the vomit booth if you search the vomit booth on Facebook we can I will I will let you in you can just curl it all up oh definitely going to check that out. I'm really really interested in that. That sounds really good. I want all of your moms in your in your community in your area in your part of the world I want to know what's you know, what's affecting you and bringing all this it's like a clown car you can I'll millions of moms and dads and stuff you. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on later. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a really great conversation. I I've loved I've loved every minute of it too. And it's so fun for me to just to especially to hear what's going on in places where I you know, I don't I don't frequent I don't I know know what, you know what's happening in your part of the world the way You do. And so it's it's often fun to find out, you know that some things are different and some things are similar. And at the end of the day like we still It proves my point that no matter where you are and what you're doing as a mom, it's like, we're, you know, we're all part of the same community and the same family here, and we're all dealing with the same stuff. So it's fun to be able to come together and share that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing so openly. And honestly, I really appreciate it. And I know my listeners will appreciate it, too. So yeah, thanks so much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Julie Denton Australian yoga teacher S1 Ep03 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts ! Widget Didn’t Load Check your internet and refresh this page. If that doesn’t work, contact us. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page ! Widget Didn’t Load Check your internet and refresh this page. If that doesn’t work, contact us. Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. My guest today is not your run of the mill artist creative, or the first thing that may spring to mind when you think of a creator. Typically, your mind goes to painters, writers, dancers and more like that Today's guest has a long history of creating in another way. And I invited her on to share one of the many ways that mothers are being creative today. My guest, Julie Denton from Matt Gambia, South Australia has many years experience in the fitness industry, as a business owner and more recently as a yoga teacher. Work. Julie, it's great to have you here. Thank you, Alison. It's great to be here. Yeah. And my first face to face interview too, which is very exciting. Obviously, I know you quite well, and I've known you for a while. But would you like to share a bit about yourself how it maybe what you've been up to, over the years involved in fitness, maybe how you got into it, what you've been up to, with the yoga, that kind of thing? Sure. When I was 18 and working in my first job. One of my co workers dragged me along to what was an aerobics class back then, at the local was just the squash center. And I was hooked. I loved it. And until that point in my life had been quite lazy. I was the girl that wags sports day at school. But I just loved it. I loved the music and the movement and the way it was all put together and I guess I love the creativity of it. So when I've literally been going for maybe a month or two this aerobics class went out bought all the gear, how will you no idea? Like Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So the days where your oily attire over your leggings and it had a G string and the leg warmers and I had the hair that went with everything was float? Look, my kids look at the photos and go Oh, Mom, have you still got some of that stuff? Because that's heavy. I have it doesn't smell very good. Like anybody um, the the woman who was taking the classes a month in the woman that was taking the classes was leaving town. And she literally said to me, Julia, would you like to take over and I said, you know, you didn't need qualifications in these days. And I said, Oh, yeah, that'd be great. And gee whiz, I, I was really thrown into it. And I remember making my first little mixtape of all I could say, took my little boombox and press play, and away we went. And it was dreadful. It was horrible to everybody loved it. And I loved it. And you know, there was nothing to compare it to. In, you know, small country town at the squash center, it was, you know, we were having a hoot. So, from there, you know, I definitely went on to become qualified and more experienced. And eventually, it led me into personal training. I opened my own personal training studio as a business. And then around about three years ago, now I left the fitness industry and opened my own yoga studio. I've been teaching yoga for about 11 or 12 years, but thought it was time to morph into something new and yoga was definitely my passion. So had you always had that sort of feeling of it? And I'm jumping right ahead here to something I'll probably ask you later. But the the spirituality that comes with yoga, was that always something you had already? That come later? Or how did you come to that? Yeah. It's funny that you asked that because I was raised as a Catholic. I went to a Catholic Primary School. So I guess that religious spirituality was there. And when by the time I had, you know, I was well into my 40s and I did my yoga teacher training, and had sort of left religion You like by then I sort of, I guess become became a bit disillusioned with it all and was perhaps looking for that spirituality again. And that's what led me to yoga. And I know, yoga facilitated a lot of change in my personal life at that stage that I really needed. I guess it was my next level of growth. And in the yoga teacher training, even though yoga is definitely not a religion, there was so the spiritual concepts took me right back to being at a Catholic Primary School, you know, that, you know, just the underlying current, I guess of love and compassion and kindness. So yeah, it was it was, I guess, my next step in my spiritual growth, and I think we're all we are I know, we're all spiritual beings. It's just some of us perhaps, don't realize it or don't want to acknowledge perhaps in a bit of denial, doesn't you know, embarrassed because it's a misunderstood concept. It's, you know, it is connected to some people connected to religion, but you can definitely be spiritual or religious. Absolutely. So, tell me about your children, Julie and your family? Yeah, um, I have a husband, Andrew have three adult children, Brittany, Tara and Liam 2927, and 22. So, I guess, from the perspective of motherhood, I'm in the, I'm in the advanced stages, I guess I've got I've got the wonderful gift of hindsight. So when I sort of had a look at the content we'd be discussing today, I've felt really blessed in that, you know, I can see it from all angles, having, you know, the pre pre kids life and then the during kids, and now almost the post kids in some ways. You've lived it all I have. Yes. So. So how do kids fit in with that? Obviously, the fitness industry and you're quite mobile, and you're moving a lot. How did that all fit in pregnancy? Well, oh, gee whiz. Well, with Brittany, my oldest I was when I was sick with all three of them for over half of the pregnancy, particularly with my first with Bret. So that was a huge steep curve, I had to sort of set aside the more high energy classes and I ended up moving into aqua aerobics teaching in the pool. Loved it. And I think what happened is I evolved into a definitely evolved into a better fitness instructor through it, because I perhaps appeal to a different demographic as well. Also have more empathy and more compassion for what other people are going through rather than just oh, look at me, I'm fit, you know, and I've got a G string. Suddenly, I was dealing with real people and real issues and mothers that can't do star dance because things happen when your mother. Absolutely. So it was, yeah, it was what needed to happen. Bring me into the real world. It was tough. You don't always get sleep when you've got a baby and Brittany just didn't sleep for the first five years of her life. So I was off and running on empty. It was it was a tough job. Even though it was so rewarding and really a super job for a new mom, because there's often a crash or a childcare involved at the gym. So I was lucky I had that support. Also could work my own hours. So we're working around when Andrew was home, unable to be home with the kids. So you touched on the tiring, so obviously your body was tired, but mentally How did you go then creating the classes? How did how did you approach that? I suppose if you were feeling a bit, not yourself, and perhaps didn't have as much time? Yeah, pre. I'll talk about pre my pre Les Mills days because before I became a Les Mills instructor, all of my classes were created by me. So the music and the choreography. Everything Yeah, usually knew who my audience and my class were going to be so I could tailor it to them. So it's probably the beginning of my personal training career in some ways. And I probably sort of prided myself on every class was layered with things we'd already visited or practiced, but then there was a new element And you'll never be. Yeah, exactly. So there was this continuation, there was a sense of familiarity from previous classes, but also a sense of adventure, and we're going somewhere and we're improving. Well, that went out the window when you baby because it's like, you have to use that tape again. And that that choreography because I just couldn't, I just couldn't, I couldn't, you know, find the time to think about it, let alone practice it, and you didn't have the time or the energy. So bit of treading water there for a year or so. But most people, you know, understood that and they were in the trenches with me, because a lot of them were new mums as well. And through that came great friendships a lot of support. Yeah, exactly. Which is so important. Even just someone to understand who can empathize is just, you know, can make the world of difference. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So before you set out on your having children adventure, did you sort of think about how your fitness life would change? Or did you sort of think, like, did you have people around you maybe that role model power to make it work in the fitness industry? Or just No, no, not at all. I was the first in my friendship group to have children. So honestly, our when I had bread, I'd never changed, or maybe even seen a nappy bean change and change one. And I rang the buzzer, and asked the nurses stitch, show me how to change the first nappy. And I had no qualms with that, because I really did not know what I was doing. Gee whiz, that that floors me right now. Go jokes about jumping into the deep end. So no, I didn't consider it, I probably the changes to my physical body would have been probably my number one concern. And, you know, I feel probably a lot of us did the same thing here in that it's focused on the pregnancy. And you don't focus so much on the actual motherhood side of things. And that goes for a lot longer than the pregnancy, actually, when you look back at it. Same with weddings and marriages, you know, the wedding, and then y'all hang on a minute, I'm gonna be married to this guy for hours. And so. So, yeah, I didn't I think the physical changes to my body were what sort of engulf me at that time. And having come from a background of having an eating disorder when I was in my late teens, and interestingly, getting into fitness is what brought me out of that hole. Because I started to respect my body more. So it was, yeah, I sort of been through that journey. And then suddenly, it was all going to change again. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that was confronting for me. And that was probably my focus. And then once I learned how to change a nappy and feed the baby, like, sort of with all three kids, I went back to my work at the gym. Fairly quickly, I had other jobs on the side that I'd hadn't any lead from, but I all I've always worked in the fitness industry is at any given time, other than perhaps three or four weeks after giving birth. I retired when I had lamb my third and then they dragged me back. Keep your way, you know? So your children are late. You've just brought up laying? Yes. just reminded me. So your children spending a lot of time around the gym. It's rubbed off on all of you. Well, yeah, all of them. Yeah, it really has. It's funny because I tell the story Liam's first full sentence was we will we will rock you because because at this stage, I was teaching those meals classes and one of them was body pump. And of course learning choreography is a big part of it. music So wherever we went in a car Sorry kid. You know, the music was playing and bless him. I think he was you know, probably was old enough to string a sentence. Obviously, not very old. He was in his car seeing the back of the car when I pulled up and I heard this you know, right at the right time with the chorus, but I tend to motor off so that the music went off and there was still this little from the back behind me. We will we will walk you it really was at the same time as i Oh, my goodness, what have I done? So yeah, and I also my girls would play aerobics instructors, step instructors, and they would, they'd go around so we go to our friend's house and with my friend Louise also in the industry. My daughter's and her daughter would be moving on girls running their own little circuit class, really so my creativity rubbed off on name as well. And since then, my oldest daughter works in, in media bit for the Melbourne Storm Rugby League clubs. So, in sport, you know, she's she's, she's connected to sport and goes to the gym, loves, loves her fitness. My middle daughter Tara is a school teacher and also a yoga teacher. She went away to Bali a few years ago and became qualified as a yoga teacher. And then Liam is currently works in a gym in Adelaide, and he's a bodybuilder so yeah, he's he's gotten pretty good too. Oh, he's gone great guns. Yeah. Yeah, he's I don't know how he does it. Yeah, it's you obviously feel very proud of him. Yeah, super proud of all my kids. And I feel that, you know, dragging them along to the gym, and I never once pushed it on them. I certainly let them eat, like normal children. I wasn't, you know, pushy with their food or, you know, their, their exercise in any way. I just modeled what I would hope for them to absorb. And they have Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that. So let's chat about the fantastic word that we get thrown at us all the time that this mum guilt. Well, how do you feel about that? Julie? Well, I guess I touched on it a little bit a moment ago. My kids did get brought up in the gym. But I was incredibly lucky that I could take them to work with me. And that they could see me I guess achieving something. And being a mum, is my greatest ever achievement, let's let's not get that wrong. I feel that mum guilt is perhaps a label or a clump that we're all invited into. Once we become a mum, and it's expected of us and it's I don't think it's it's something that's unique to any of us where we all feel it. So therefore, is it a thing? You know, it's, you know, tree falls in the forest? Does anyone hear it? Is it a thing? Is it something? Is it just a label, it's I don't think it's an emotion, I don't think it's a feeling I just think it's a thing. And studies have shown that guilt doesn't necessarily reform your future behavior. And I thought about that, and I because I knew that this was one of you your topics. And I thought if I really, really had felt that guilty, when I've stopped doing what I was doing, deep down, I knew that what I was doing was giving me purpose and lighting me up from within. And you know that old cliche making me a better mother. Deep down, I know that whenever things whenever I had a right to feel guilty whenever it really was affecting my children, I changed, I let go of it, I moved away from it, I let it go every single time. So and I mean every you know to say that you've got mum guilt, everybody experiences guilt differently as well. And for me, the feeling of guilt is kind of like looking forward to some sort of future resentment. I know I'm gonna feel bad one day that I missed out on that first smile or the first step or whatever. I that might not happen. And be I'm going to I'm going to go with my yoga and meditation roots here. We can only live in the here in the now. So when I was with the kids, I tried as much as possible as possible to be with my kids. And when I wasn't with them, I tried to do the best job that I was doing with the support that I had. And I think I did and I guess as I said earlier I've got the the luxury now of sitting here with three grown adult children looking back going it all turned out okay. Yeah, maybe if you interview them it might be I don't think so. No, no, I think what we what we do worry and have these feelings and challenges in the here and now. We just got to stay in the here and now. Do the best we can. Do you think a lot of that comes from society's expectations or how you perceive yourself being judged by others. Definitely. I think it's expected that we will feel guilty will have mommy guilt RDMS them and oh you know how do you go Being away from them all day. And, you know, what's it like when you get home today, you know, and it's there is this expectation that that's how you're going to feel. So we feel it and it's like, you know, I think you maybe feel it, but Don't wallow in it. Just go, okay, everyone's feeling the same way I am. So just do the best I can and really be with your family when you're with them. And when you're not with them know that that's part of their journey to where if we've created this beautiful, amazing human, and we are meeting their, their needs as far as food, shelter, love. That's actually all they really need. As long as you're meeting those, the guilts really a wasted feeling. I've said that so well. Did you? Did you find that your that you needed to have something for yourself? Was it important for you to maintain that? Yes. Your sense of identity as Julie? Yes. Not just Julie mum? Yes, not Julie mom, not Julie wife, not Julie daughter, you know, it's interesting with the mom guilt thing, you move on into my stage of life. And now I have parent guilt. And for all the bad things I've ever said to my mum and dad, the way I judge them when they were bringing me up for not spending enough time with them now that, you know, my mum passed on in March and you know, the time that I didn't spend with her or couldn't spend with her or, you know? Yeah, I think I think we beat ourselves up too much. We can only be in the moment that we're in. That's wise words. So, you've mentioned you yoga, just February flee, I want to sort of bring that in. Even though you weren't necessarily practicing a lot of ego, you're when you had your children. You were doing your fitness and you came into yoga, or 1211 12. Zero, yeah. Did you find then being a mother, and this whole connection to Mother Earth and other concepts in exploring yoga, that you found a really deep connection that you could understand, or feel those concepts strongly because you're a mother, everything has evolved since becoming a mother. And speaking of Mommy get to do my yoga teacher training, I had to go, I had to go and live in Boston for a month. And I had incredible support to be able to do that. But I nearly came home after the first week, I was in tears every night, it was so hard. And it wasn't even really mommy guilt. It was I just missed them. But again, the thing that kept me there was that, you know, they I think Liam was only about 10. And the girls are a little older, sort of in high school. And I could see that me being away was enriching their relationship with their dad. And seeing him as part of their, their care is not that wasn't always just gonna be me and didn't always have to be me and their grandparents as well. So when I came back from that, I think all of our relationships changed a bit. We all appreciated each other a whole lot more. When I became a mum, say in the fitness industry, I definitely had a greater awareness and appreciation for the female body and started to research more about that aspect, you know, the hormonal hormonal fluctuations as an example, on a woman that might be training, you know, in the gym, or, you know, running or, you know, participating in sport. So that came into my personal training that came into my, my field of vision. Suddenly, yeah, and then of course, as you head towards menopause, that's now also coming in. And then of course, with yoga. Yeah, when you become a yoga teacher, you realize, you really realize this connection to all beings. You you also realize a connection to think something that's greater than yourself. And realize you have this responsibility of passing down your wisdom. And I'm going to talk a bit about perhaps, hear the, the maid and the mother and the crone and the cranes a horrible word. I'm gonna get creative and come up with a high priestess. Oh, yeah. Because I'm a crane. And I want to be called a chrome. Thanks very much. Yeah. So the maiden is, you know, the years when as a female, you're a child or adolescent. You're going through puberty. You're laying the foundation for your the future. You're You're growing and developing physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally. And then you move into that creative time when you're the mother, where you you're nurturing, and you're, you're providing the shelter, the food, the life sustaining elements to either your children or your family or your pets, whatever it might be, that's your stage in life. And then you move through that into menopause and beyond. And unfortunately, as in Western society, unlike perhaps a the ancient societies in India, where yoga originated, where the the elders are revered, for their wisdom and their guidance, where in our society, we're kind of cast aside we're not cool. We're not Instagram worthy, where, you know, yeah, that was, you know, back in your day, that doesn't count anymore. And yeah, it doesn't. You know what, I'm so glad that I had my kids when I did, because I think we got it easier. But I'm in that stage now where my job I see it is to provide some wisdom and guidance and a shining mite. So that, I guess that's why I came into yoga, because I felt that there was no more moving on girl for the locker room, there was so much more in me than that. And what was the next thing so? Yoga was that that awakening within me? I really miss it. I'm like, in a hiatus at the moment, I'm calling it my chrysalis. I might have been alone, perhaps I was having that come out as a moth. But Kevin? Yeah, my studio, I had to unfortunately, close because of COVID. And then I've developed type one diabetes. So I, you know, divine timing, because I would have I was really, really ill. And it would have been a real struggle to run a yoga studio. So I figured, okay, I've been almost shoved into this cocoon. And um, I was I was fighting that for a while. But then we know what happens inside cocoons. Amazing things. So I'm just going to settle in here for a while. A little bit longer yet. Yep. Build up my strength a little more. And don't worry. There's there's things happening. If there's ideas, and I'm being so creative, right now, probably more creative than I've ever been. It's just that it's all in my mind. The mind is ready. And the body's saying I haven't your wings aren't quite ready yet. That's right. Yeah. So let's talk about then the creativity involved in when you you organizing your yoga classes and the thought and so I've always admired and to tell people that Julie has this beautiful, big, it's a double like a full big book. And she sets it out in front of every class. And when I realized what it was, I used to get a bit sneaky and have a look, because I'll always like to bring up the front. Oh, excellent at doing that posting. And it's all color coded, which is like, it's beautiful. And so much thought and effort and passion goes into that. So if you wouldn't mind divulging some of your secrets of how you come up with your classroom. In some ways, that's my favorite part. And that's the creativity. You know, I can't sit here and say that someone's got that hanging on a wall somewhere or that someone came to, you know, see my show, but I guess they did in some ways. And I've often joked that I'm, I'm my, if I could give myself a title, it's facilitator of change. That's what I've always helped creating bedding to create create some change in people whether it was through sit ups and burpees or, or yoga practice or meditation. And my favorite part always has been when I think about it, and thank you for making me think about it. Allison, has been creating what I'm about to present. And I guess when I think deeper about it, everything I've done, whether it's that aerobics class in the leotard or now my yoga, it's almost a performance. I that I've planned and choreographed and researched and scripted. You know, back in my aerobics days or the Les Mills days, you spending an hour on stage, smiling, pretending something doesn't hurt when it's killing you inside. is doing a good job of stringing people along for the ride if you and no matter what happened that morning if the kids will run like we need them breakfast or you throw him in the car or car break down whatever it literally is, it's a performance you need on your happy face. And pretty much everyone in the class was creating that same sense as well in that you know, their kids might have been the ones that wouldn't eat their breakfast but that's okay because right now they're in the kids club and I'm having an hour to my set Yeah, so and then yeah with my yoga book, if you want to call it that the volume of my my lesson plans are go with a theme and I attach my theme to whatever's happening in nature. I'm very much connected to the natural world love love the ocean love the moon love the sun, love the seasons love a forest love a mountain. So I'll work out what's going on maybe astronomically or with the moon cycle or with the season you know, maybe an equinox or a solstice or whatever is going on. Or maybe it's a current world event. I remember I had to teach a body balanced class on the day that we all woke up to 911 has possibly been taken but people still turned up for it because they needed something. And that's what tells me that spirituality is so such an integral part of us so yeah, that's that's where I start and then sometimes the colors are a code sometimes they're just pretty colors to be honest. And just changing textures over but sometimes they are a COVID or I might be working with shockers or with a season or or just my favorite colors so yeah, from that that foundation of where I'm coming from then research okay what you know, I know the basic structure of a yoga class I mean learn the very basics and fundamentals through my yoga teacher training. So research okay, what physically do we need in our bodies to perhaps deal with this time or settle any negative things that might arise from say a full moon or or enhance things you know, that we might want to bring to the surface and deal with or shine light on? And then from there, you know, working out okay, how does one pose fit with another? Am I is there is it a balanced class physically? What am I then, you know, what am I going to say? How am I going to present this? beginnings, middles endings, you know, is there a meditation that could go with this? Is there breathwork? What breathwork can go with is each all of my classes will have those elements. It's not just oh, moving on, girl. Yeah, it's definitely this, you know, it's the whole shebang. Yoga should always be breathing, movement, mindfulness. When I owned my own studio, I had the luxury of being able to look at who was booked into that class, and then maybe working out any modifications I might need to offer for people or perhaps just, again, tailoring it along to whoever I I knew was going to be in the class. Did you find that your how you were feeling came out in like, if you feel like you need? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, so many times, and I've said it to yoga teachers, when I've been to their class, people will say, Oh, how did you know that was exactly what I needed. And I you've seen I've said it's because, you know, we're all connected together. Yeah, you know, often, I would have, I've probably admitted in class many times, this ain't for me, this is for you. This is for me. I know you don't want to expose but I do. Or I need this. And so you know, it's tongue in cheek, but yeah, we, we, you know, if I'm feeling the effect of, let's say, the autumn equinox, where we're about to shift into winter, where, you know, letting go of those warm balmy days and you know, the joy of summer and from smart meters like and we're, you know, physically we're shifting, it's getting colder. We're feeling we're starting to eat stodgy foods and it's just like, oh, here we go again. And, you know, we're all feeling the same. So no matter what I present, whether I think it's, you know, for me or them, it's for all of us. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just want to touch on your, your name of your yoga studio, one lifestyle, one yoga and lifestyle. That is important to you to embody that. It's not just the poses, the shapes you make, it's an You take it away from the mat and put it into your life integrated into your life. That's something you're passionate about, ah, so much. So, I mean, I think because I came, because of that journey I've just spoken about I came from, well look at me, I'm fed to, Hey, sit down, be humble, you know, there's more to it than running around like a crazy person, you realize, you do realize that when you've once you've had children, that's for sure. There's more people in the world than just you. And everything you do, has an effect on other beings. And if we want to focus on the lifestyle, part of it, so one yoga and lifestyle, I wanted to include the word lifestyle, because Yoga is a lifestyle, it's, you know, it's not that people think, Oh, it's a religion, it's a cult, it's just, it's a form of exercise. It's none of those things. It's a lifestyle. It was, you know, founded 1000s of years ago. And it's still around. So it's not a fad. It's not, it's still very relevant, more and more so. And what we do on the mat, the lessons we learn about our physical body to start with, and then as we evolve about mental, spiritual, emotional bodies, we can take into our everyday life. And it's really as as as a yoga practitioner. It's important that we do that, because then we make the world a better place. And that just sounds so Walt Disney, but honestly, that's what it's all about. It's about being the best person we can. So that everybody around us, and if you get if you get that many people trying to be the best, and do the best nicest things, you know, the the I don't know what the remarks are. Yeah, the ripple effect. Yeah. Yeah. It's really important to me that people come to yoga. It's there. There's, that's a whole sentence, it's important that people come to yoga force. Yeah. And when they do consistently, they will realize exactly what I've just said that they might come for the stretch, they might come because they're tired. They might come because they can't sleep. They might come because they've got a pain in the back. And if they keep coming, they'll eventually look back and go, Well, I'm coming for a whole different reason. Now. I'm coming for that story about Goddess Kali. I'm, I'm coming because I need to slow down and breathe deeper. I'm coming because my mind is so full. I need to just be still and silent. And like you said the people that came to that body balance class on that night of 911 Like just needing comfort, I suppose. And community connection in a really positive way. Yeah. And they probably need to needed to do it. In a space that felt safe. A yoga class always feels safe. Yeah, and they needed Yeah, they they needed perhaps. That mothering. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else you'd love to share to leave, it's important to you that we might not have mentioned? Yeah, I think apart from like my work, if you want to call it that, I've never felt like I've worked. I've been so blessed with it all over the years and had great support, so that I could always do what I've always done. And looking back, I'd like to think I'm a good example of a mum that knew what was best for her knew what was best for your kids and let go of any guilt or expectation and just did it when it felt right. And that it can all turn out well in the end. Moving away from that, though, the way other ways that we can be creative because, you know, there's there's a lot of pressure on us now. And you know, because of social media as well, we're always expected to achieve you know, and to show what we've been doing with our time heaven forbid that we might just sit around and not do anything. Yeah. And you know, the only thing we did today might have been mopped the floor that's not good enough, you know, well, if you didn't post it on Instagram, it didn't really happen. Exactly. So you know, I sort of again if this coming on this podcast has been great for me because you made me reflect back on how did it change when I do you become a mother and I was at home or and I just got into baking and cooking and the kids would do that with me and and craft was big on craft as in craft groups. And I was like, you know, I was managing a big craft group at one stage. I didn't get any craft done. As usual was like I was never as fit as I could be because I was I was at the front like yelling and everybody. Well, there was not getting any craft done because I was organizing for everybody. But it was it was great. I It's creating a crop group. And yeah, so you know, yeah, I've got quilts. And honestly, if there hadn't been Instagram back, then every day, my house would have had different decor because I had, I just was rotating the rooms all the time. I just loved being home and doing that. So, you know, that's if that's how you're being creative. That's how you're being creative. And you know, I think we're all creative. Oh, I totally agree. You know, we we've all got art and music and performance inside of us. And you've really got to acknowledge that no matter how grand it is, or how, you know, mop the floor and sing the song. With you and you created something. Exactly. Yeah. I didn't want to ask too. How is it different now? Your creativity, and obviously the, the ways you can do it and how you do it. You don't have any kids living at home now. So that must be a different sort of vibe and feel at home. Yeah, I mean, also, because I'm not regularly teaching at the moment. I'm sort of doing a few pop up classes here and there. So yeah, everything really has changed. But yeah, now if I've got a class to plan, I, I'm sorry, not organized. I procrastinate to the last minute because you don't have to be and quite often, what will happen is like Tara being a schoolteacher, she'll come home for the holidays. This isn't like, Oh, hey, my glasses have been caught out with my pants down. So you tend to get a little bit laps at AZ cool, I think. I think you're at your peak of organizational powers when you have kids at home. And yeah, also, you know, like little things like if I'm trying to make a new playlist or something I have, I've had to learn how to do it. Just get the kids to help me ring him up. Brother Yeah, so it's definitely changed. Yeah, yep. We're very, very lucky today on the podcast. Julie's gonna lead us to a meditation. And it's one of my favorites, actually is my complete favorite. So over to you, Julie. Thanks. So today's meditation is metta Karuna. And this literally means a loving kindness meditation. So I will begin by finding a comfortable position and this is whatever is comfortable for you. So you can be seated you can lie down. I recommend that you make yourself warm. So find perhaps something to place over your lap. Make sure you've got socks on or some long sleeves and as you find yourself comfortable, close down your eyes. Remembering that in meditation, all we really need to do is just to be present to just stay alert and aware. Just listening to my voice being in the here and now the meta Karuna meditation I'm doing today begins with shine, showing love kindness and compassion to the self. So as is the Buddhist tradition, we will send our love or kindness and compassion to ourselves first. So I'm going to recite a small mantra and what you need to do is listen and then repeat the words silently to yourself lying as you are, visualize yourself, smiling, happy, peaceful and free. And as you visualize yourself smiling, say to yourself, may I be happy? May I be peaceful? May I be free of all suffering? Next, we will visualize before us somebody that we love unconditionally, who loves us in return This can be the first person you think of because I'm sure there are many people and very people, perhaps pets that you love so just the first person or pet that comes to mind visualize them before you smiling back and send your loving thoughts to this person may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering now we'll bring to mind somebody neutral somebody that you know and acquaintance, somebody that you don't have any strong feelings towards. So this might be somebody that serves you in a shop might be somebody that you see on television, it might be a sporting hero, somebody that you don't really know but you you see them often and you have neutral feelings for them. Visualize this person smiling, happy then send this person your love and your kindness and your compassion May you be happy May you be peaceful may be free of all suffering and now, for a challenge we visualize somebody who challenges us it might be somebody who you've had a disagreement with it might be somebody that just rubs you up the wrong way pushes your buttons if this is too painful for you, that's okay perhaps just return to visualizing yourself and sending yourself the love and the kindness and the compassion. But if you can visualizing this person who challenges you and see them happy and relaxed and smiling and smile at them in return and send them your metric arena May you be happy really peaceful. May you be free of all suffering and finally as vast as it is, visualize the whole world all beings the entire universe before you all beings deserve to be happy and peaceful and free So visualizing all beings we send out our meta Karina May all beings be happy May all beings be peaceful May all beings be free. Son, the Shang, Asian baby keeping your eyes closed, just becoming aware of your surroundings again. If you're lying on the floor, just roll over to your right side body and curl up there for a moment. And then taking your time whenever you're ready. Use your hands to brace yourself back up and take a seat so that we're all seated. Just pause for a moment eyes remaining closed and just noticing the effects of our meditation may you be happy May you be peaceful may you be free of all suffering thank you so much for coming. Enjoy. It's been an absolute pleasure and sharing your thoughts and experience because we That's thanks, Alison. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic man

Rachel Power Australian freelance writer, editor and artist S1 Ep04 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Rachel Power is a freelance writer, editor and artist, and a mum of 2 from Melbourne. Rachel’s book “The Divided Heart: Art and Motherhood” , has supported and inspired so many of my previous guests, and I just had to speak to the woman behind the book. We chat about the book, why motherhood absolutely has to change you, the importance of having your sense of experience validated, why mothers are shamed for sharing their struggles and negative experiences, and breaking the patriarchal stereotypes around the way artists create. Rachel podcast Podcast - instagram / website Quotes spoken throughout this episode are taken from Rachel's book 'The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood' Music used with permission from Alemjo . When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. As Susan Ruben Solomon wrote, perhaps the greatest struggle for a woman artist who has or desires children, is the struggle against herself. No amount of money, no amount of structural change can entirely resolve the fundamental dilemma for the artists mother, the seeming incompatibility of her two greatest passions. The effect is a divided heart, a split self, the fear that to succeed at one means to fail at the other. Rachel pow is a freelance writer, editor, and artist. She has contributed to many publications including Mamma mia, the big issue, Kill your darlings and the age. She has worked as a court illustrator for Channel Nine, production editor of arena magazine, and is currently communications manager for the Australian education union Victoria. Rachel is the author of Alison Ray fish, a life for art, the divided heart, art and motherhood and motherhood in creativity. After having Rachel's second book, The divided heart recommended to me from a number of guests on this podcast, I frantically tracked down the book and read it and was blown away. I was intrigued to meet the woman behind the stories that had resonated with myself and so many others. I reached out to Rachel and she was generous enough to give me this time. Rachel is a mother of two. And in this chat we talk not only about her books, but the challenges she faced in making them. The divided heart is a collection of interviews with artistic mothers, including musician Clare Bowditch and actress Rachel Griffith. Rachel's interviewees had such diverse experiences when combining motherhood and art making. And I began by asking Rachel, her thoughts around this, when I was working out those interviews for the book, their work, there was crossover themes for pretty much everyone. But your ability to cope with those things, or their approach to them could all be very different. Yeah, cuz the thing that really stuck out for me about that was that Helen, and then Helens daughter had a completely opposite take on it. Like for Helen, it was just immense, in almost catastrophic, it was just sewing in all consuming for it. And then I felt like your daughter, Alice could sort of take it or leave it like here, or at least that's the impression I got reading it, but she was so relaxed about it. And, you know, it wasn't the the, the intensity, and I just found that fascinating, just in the same family to have such incredible responses. I know, isn't that interesting? I think it's in part. It's in part, generational, definitely. But not entirely. It's definitely also about personality. And it's also about art form. I think different art forms are much easier to do around children than others. And one of the things I also found really interesting was that some people changed art forms as a result, I just do remember that one person changed the kind of art she was doing. So certainly, I remember someone talking to me about how they were a painter, probably traditionally an oil painter, you know, where there's a lot of setup, a lot of cleanup, all of those things, and she just thought I can't, you know, I can't do this. It's toxic. It's, it's not easy to find time and space to set up and clean up anymore. I'm just gonna start finger painting with my kids at the table. And I think that really changed her whole approach to her, the her art form. And so, you know, it's great when you get those stories of where it's actually you know, forced a new kind of creativity the book was written quite a long time ago, and as you would know, I wrote two editions. So, there was an early edition, which I when I started the, the divided heart as the books called, I was a journalist, so I was used to doing interviews and but I was also obviously I become a mother. I was in my A late 20s. And I got pregnant in my final year of art school. So I'd been a journalist from the age of 17. And then I'd gone back to university in my 20s. And I was part time does part time working for TV station, and part time at uni. And so by my final year of uni, I was pregnant with my, with my first child. So it was this United finally got myself to art school was sort of trying to do this thing that I really wanted to do, which was to write and paint, and then had a baby. So I think, for me, it was that shock of how to juggle everything. And I just started trying to work out, you know, where can I find examples of other people who were going through this? Or had been through this? And how did they manage to kind of find a way to negotiate these twin passions of parenting and, and creating art. And for me, at that stage, being a journalist, I suppose what I was used to doing, was researching and interviewing. And so I just started doing that, without really having any thoughts about what it would be, I thought I'd probably write an article. And then increasingly, as I, and I was just seeking out people I liked, you know, it was just a passion project where I could just say, Oh, this is great excuse to talk to these women I admire. And so I set up these interviews, but the interesting thing about it was that it was really interesting, it was really easy to set up the interviews, because pretty much everyone I contacted, was very keen to talk about this topic, and felt that no one else had asked them about it. And it hadn't, they hadn't had a chance to publicly on my own, maybe even privately really delve in to this experience. Which is not to say it was a new experience, obviously, for for women, it's been in, you know, an issue for all time. But I think maybe, you know, we're at a point where women sorry, I know I'm I'm sort of carrying on, what's interesting to me with hindsight, perhaps, is that we'd hit this sort of point where our, our mothers had been the first generation of the second wave feminists. And so we'd been told a lot about what our expectations for our life could be, you know, what that we could have at all, you know, all of those messages that, that we were, we were getting, and the sense of freedom and ambition that we all have, and should have. And then suddenly, we have children and realize how compromised that can be. And that that is an age old problem, and not really an easy problem to solve. So feminism or for you know, no matter how liberated you are, so, the fact is, we we love our children, and we want to be there for them. And our children love us and I desperately attached to us. And therefore finding space and time for something that we want to do for ourselves is incredibly difficult. I'm sort of reminded of some people that, that were in the book that that they were people were forced to do things in different ways. And through that maybe found better ways to do that art. So an example, Jen lash who's who I've interviewed recently that she because she only had 10 or 15 minutes, she became really, really good at getting things done in 10 or 15 minutes, you know, so that sort of perhaps learning better ways more efficient ways for them to do their art. Yeah, that's sort of the theme that I that I found a lot too. Oh, yeah, that was one of the strongest themes. So one of the strongest things, I think, particularly for those who were probably better at seeing the upsides or experiencing the upsides was that sense that they'd spent years kind of faffing about, you know, having 10 cups of coffee, you know, endlessly ruminating and suddenly they had no time and so it allowed them to do away with all of that. No fluff and just get on with the job. That was definitely a theme. And yeah, learning how to be really quick and efficient with the time with the time that they did have use it really effectively. And I'll also I thought what was interesting was pebble found whole new ways of working in that sense. So I interviewed Lisa, Who's In Who's the poet in the book, she, they forgotten, she talked about how she would just go on long walks with her baby in the pram, and she would just write a poem in her head as she walked, and then get home and quickly get it down. And there were lots of stories like that, where people have became a lot less precious about their work, which I think is, you know, that that's a great thing for anyone. And I suppose for me, sort of looking at that bigger picture of the way women work. It just felt it felt kind of gratifying to show up that history of men who have, you know, demanded silence and holed up in their ivory towers and had the, had their wives leave their lunch outside the door. And, you know, all of those things. I know that, you know, I don't want to say that all men are operate have operated this way. But you know, there's a strong, there's a strong, there's a lot of evidence that historically, men were able to work in very kind of intense, concentrated ways that relied on the servitude of others. And it put paid to that it showed me that no art does not require that and that men should not be able to demand that either. You know, really, it's just been a nice excuse. Curious, and if you can work that way, great. But it shouldn't rely on the work of women to allow men to work that way. Because women can show that it doesn't have to be like that. Yeah, absolutely. And a prime example of your, in your book, you talk about breastfeeding, and being writing little notes, and then suddenly, the kicks of the child's legs, kick them off, and then you're sad again, you know, and finding, like writing on a night. So remit trying to remember you got really good at remembering things. And yeah, just taking whatever opportunities you could to get down what you needed to get down. Yeah, and I loved the comment from and I think it was Susan Johnson, who's the writer who said, that she knew she could hold on to eight lines. You know, she knew that that was her maximum, if she could just memorize those eight lines, and she would get them down as soon as she could. But she worked out that that was her, you know, threshold for how much her brain could carry around. So yeah, and I do that too. I just sort of rehearse them and rehearse them and rehearse them till I can find a moment. I mean, I had my children before iPhones, and I think an iPhone would have changed my life. And you know, for all the downsides of technology and iPhones. Firstly, I think audiobooks would have saved me, you know, that would have been if I could have just breastfed and listen to books, and not have my hand kind of wrapping up every time I tried to hold this book for an hour. Or and you know, I mean, I still love writing by hand and taking notes. But if I could have been tapping away on a phone and writing little notes while breastfeed, I'm sure I would have been. So yeah, and I'm sure it's true for songwriting, too. And I know Clare Bowditch said that a lot that she uses, will probably she used to use some kind of little recording device, but now she uses her phone, and would just constantly be recording little snippets of tunes or lyrics that came to her mind. So yeah, just really using whatever you can use to whatever tools and whatever time you've got. Yeah, absolutely. I want to touch on the idea of, of having support. There's a quote, in your book that says to create, once you have children requires the commitment of more than one person. And yeah, if followed up by the Illinois duck wrote, this situation, I found both humbling and infuriating. I can completely relate to that. It's like whatever decision you make as an artist affects somebody else in the family. I think you're right. I mean, that is the most humbling thing, isn't it that suddenly all every all the decisions you would make and all the choices, you know, though pretty much your own up until that point, I mean, there might have affected your partner or your friends in some ways, but they they're not having the kind of profound effect that they can have on a family and on your children. And I guess everyone knows once you have children, if If you do have a partner, and even if you're separated from their partner, you it's an it's endless negotiation. And you know that it can become quite competitive. And I think that's a real danger, you know, who's having the worst time who's getting the most time, you know, who's had the most time out. And I think for, for myself, I didn't have grandparents, I didn't have parents around. And my, because I guess, also, I had my children quite young. So my parents were still working. So they didn't, and they weren't in the state anyway, for a little while my mother in law was, but she she had a lot else going on. So we had no regular support from outside and, and we were quite young, we didn't have well, we still have, we have money to throw around either. You know, babysitting is very expensive. And we were both working. While I wasn't working early on, actually, I and my partner and I, for a while worked part time each and that was great. When we were both working part time. And both looking after the children part time, that felt really ideal, because we both understood the pressures of both sides and both roles. And if if you can live on one part time income for a short time, which we could early on, while we were still renting, so on then I think I you know, that was a great way to live. But I know that that's not an option. And you know, these decisions are really, really difficult. And so for, for a mother. Yeah, it's it's quite a shock, I think, to feel like every thing you want to do with your life now has to be something that's negotiated and, and the implications for everyone around you. And especially your children have to be considered what was interesting, there was a few things that really interesting to me, too, in that is that even those women who did have support and I think, you know, a supportive partner is essential if you have a partner, and they don't support your right to make art, it is almost impossible once you have children or even without them, but particularly want to have children, if your partner is not going to be supportive of your right to keep making art. I don't know how you could you know how either your relationship or your heart could survive. But in terms of the broader support, I think women and their friendships become absolutely essential. And if you can find ways to share the load between you to take turns taking care of each other's children, that kind of thing, I think, becomes really vital. And then I think more broadly, this one quote is always stuck in my mind with artists saris, Tama city. So Sara Tama City is a painter, Melbourne painter, and she has a big family. So she married an Italian man, big family, lots of siblings, lots of grandchildren, and the her parents in law will babysit those children when people have to go to work, but they wouldn't babysit the children so that she could paint because they just didn't think that was legitimate. You know, that's just a mother expecting to have some fun or some time off to do this frivolous thing. We so they, you know, they're not going to look after her children to allow her to do that. And to me, that seemed entirely symbolic of the situation for artists in general, perhaps, but for particular, yeah, that judgment of what society values, I suppose, and you're just messing around doing some painting, that's, you know, that's not that sort of value enough to classify it as, as work in comics. And particularly, I think for a mother, you're that just seems indulgent. I think that's just deemed indulgent, your absolute priority should be looking after your children and, and I think the message is that you shouldn't really want to paint anymore, you shouldn't really want to have to do these things for yourself. And I think historically, I think historically, women wanting to do those things is probably even felt a bit dangerous. You know, because these are women who aren't fitting the norm who aren't willing to give up their lives to other people's needs. You know, you can see that there's a whole history of that being thought felt as very dangerous. And while that may no longer be the case in you know, that quite such a dramatic way. I think we still carry that feeling. Oh, Absolutely, it's like you're still challenging the status quo. I think you're still even the conversation over who's going to do housework, like isn't already agreed in some silent sort of negotiation that you will take over housework. Like, I don't mean the house, I think of marriage counselors everywhere. And just the horrible boredom it must be to be constantly dealing with these conversations, these arguments about the housework. It's so huge. I feel like the housework conversation is one. Yeah, it feels massive to me, because it is amazing that no matter how much how much you've assumed, you've got an equal partnership. It is incredible how housework just seems to fall to the woman over and over and over again. And ah, that is a really gnarly question. Like, I haven't worked through myself. Why that is because I'm aware, it's not only about men's expectations, there's something internal to the something that women internalize that means they take that on. And it is actually really difficult to go up against that instinct in ourselves, as well as societal expectations. And you know, it seems so prosaic to bring that down to housework, but I feel like housework is very symbolic of that bigger picture for women. Helen Garner once talked of the terrific struggle for women striving to fulfill destinies beyond being wives and mothers. It's terribly sad, she said, it's a very sad thing. A woman trying to be an artist and a mother. At the same time. It's a tremendous clash, she trailed off, perhaps aware of having innocently stumbled into one of those quicksand zones, where the implications of what you were saying are so enormous and unwieldly that you risk being swallowed up. Sad was the word she used. It's a terribly sad thing. For women trying to be an artist and mother. At the same time. There's a quote in the book that says you can never be a mother 100% of the time, because you're just an ordinary human being with different aspects to you that are not necessarily to do with the gender. Is it important for you to be more than offset in inverted commas? Just a mum. And that's not even just a mum, because we know, that's not even a correct statement. But I'm look at, yeah, of course, yes, I think the big challenge when, and this isn't just about motherhood, but the big challenge for us in our lives, going when we've got all these other demands is to keep finding our way back to ourselves. And I think that's what artists have always been so good at, you know, art is about finding your way back to yourself in whatever way over and over again. And in doing that, I don't mean that that means you're just self obsessed, or because I think what artists doing fine in finding their way back to themselves, they're finding their way back to everything and everyone, you know, because that is so universal, it's that universal language, and then that's why it's such a connector. And it's the thing that makes us feel connected to, to the world as an end to everything, both internal and, you know, and what makes us what am I trying to say that, you know, it's also what's so important beyond us? And so, yes, at the same time, I think one of the things that I wanted to sort of get it in writing the divided heart is how profound motherhood is, and that it shouldn't just be, I think, we've often got an attitude before having children that, you know, we're just going to hold on to this self, we're going to hold on to this identity, we've got motherhood is not going to change me. You know, I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to have children, but that doesn't mean it's going to change my identity. But of course, I hope you know, I think it'd be pretty impossible to have motherhood, not change your identity and your sense of yourself. Because it's such a dramatic and profound experience. And, you know, particularly for artists who are already, you know, on the whole, deep thinking people who We are interested in identity and interested in, you know, what, what changes us and who we are, then then motherhood actually, to me presents a real opportunity to, you know, this whole parts of myself that I think I just never would have had to have encountered good and bad without becoming a parent. And this would be true for every everyone, every parent, mothers and fathers, but of course, as a mother, it's, it's very dramatic, it's very transformative, because you've actually given birth and, and because of the way that your children need you. That, to me was something I don't think I've thought about before having children was the particular kind of relationship your children have to you, particularly in those early years, that's so intense, and so demanding, you know, that it can sort of threaten to obliterate you, and your sense of self. So, you know, holding on to your identities, beyond that can or who your sense of yourself outside of that will be on that is pretty, pretty difficult. So, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is something that I felt like, in talking to women artists, most of them, most of them felt like what they really want to was to have that sense of their experience validated, and to feel like it wasn't trivial. And that being a mother is actually really significant, and shouldn't be a theme for art. And if, if you want to make art about it, and, and in whatever way it changes you, which is not always directly about your children, and I'm not suggesting you know, everyone just starts making pictures of their, their kids, it's more you know, you're you're extremely vulnerable as a mother out, you're, and your senses are alive, and all of those things that can be, you know, of great benefit to someone who's created art. I mean, it can be painful to but that's also good for art. So, yeah, I think I think all the women I spoke to really were embracing that, that change to their identity. Going, they didn't mean that they were going around, you know, saying, Oh, what am I trying to say? Because we've got that kind of also that sort of picture of motherhood, don't worry, that gets held up. For us. That's all loving nor caring, no light and sunshine. And, you know, I think the great thing about that is it can talk about how motherhood isn't like that. It's also it's incredibly difficult. It's incredibly painful. And we all need to hear that too. And I think too, there's that, that fine line where society thinks that you're just whinging about your soul? Yes. It's like, well, you want it to be mine? Well, now you've got it. You can't complain? How dare you complain about this, you know, that that's something I find challenging is that it is actually okay to express the feelings and the challenges you have without resenting being a mother. You know, of course, and there's a lot of judgment, I feel associated with that, because as soon as you start to complain, you're judged. You're not you just knocked down. You know, I, it's really strange. I mean, I, I absolutely loved Rachel casks work, book, her life's work, which I know, which is a book about her early experience of motherhood. And I know, she's been absolutely torn apart for that book, mainly by other women, by other mothers, who I think for some reason, feel very threatened by a woman complaining or expressing the challenges of motherhood is really interesting how defensive people can get and I think it's the thing that I used to say, in response to that is, if I didn't love my children so much, this wouldn't be so hard. It's difficult precisely because I love them so much. And because I actually really value my role as a mother and feel like it's an important one, and that I want to be present for my children and that I, you know, and then I feel the risk of mothering taking over really, I always still do feel that But, you know, my, my children could take up 100% of my time if I let them in. And I feel that pressure to, you know, both of my kids have, I've only got two kids, but they've both got quite, they're both quite demanding in their different ways and have, you know, one of my children has quite high level, neat learning needs. And so I, you know, I still feel that incredible guilt of not using time that I could otherwise put towards her learning needs, you know, using that time for reading or writing or whatever I might do. And this is on top of what I mean, I also work full time. So the amount of time I've got for those things on top of my job is limited anyway. So, yeah, I think that's the only response we can make is, you know, this is it's because mothers, because it's because it is such a big and important job for the whole of society, not just for us, you know, we're creating these people that are going to be out there in the world, and who are the next generation. And so it is a very significant role. And if we didn't care about that, and we didn't love our children, it wouldn't be challenging. And we've got every right to talk about how challenging it is. Absolutely. The code, a lot of comments there kind of lead into the concept of mum guilt that possibly women have been around as much when, or at least not hashtagged. When you write in your book. Yeah. How do you feel about that? I mean, I guess we've sort of addressed that a little bit, but how do you feel about that term mum guilt and, and how it impacts upon us? I mean, I think guilt was, in a way, the central theme, I suppose, or one of the central themes. Because time is so limited. You know, you make choice, you've got to make choices about how you use your time and that. Yeah, I think, I suspect, probably there's always been a lot of guilt for mothers, but we've got new, you know, we've got, I guess, with the birth of psychology, we all started becoming very conscious of behaviors and the impact that our behaviors have on other people. And at that point, I suppose mother started getting certain kinds of messages. I mean, I guess, historically, there's all sorts of reasons why politically, there's been a lot of control over women at different points, and what society would like women to do and be, you know, because it's him, there's been different needs at different times, and particularly when there's been kind of baby booms and women have been or when there's been a drop in. They call it today's they say dropping fertility, but it's not dropping fertility, like the birth. In China at the moment where they've now announced they can have three children if they want. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so there's all of a sudden, all this pressure on women to you know, get back into the home and start birthing. And I think when I started writing my book, actually, it was sort of at the height of this weird Mommy Wars, which I just thought was so awful. So is this kind of public debate, and this is the kind of thing that media loves to grip onto and whip up? Is this fight between supposedly, stay at home mums and working mothers, as if any of us are just one of those things I'll eat you know, I mean, unless if I'd say you know, most women really are very open to the fact that some woman loves staying home and that's completely fine and great if you're in a position to do that, and you're supported to do that, and, and that that's something new want to do and, and some women need to and want to work, and that's equally fine. And you know, our children grow up in a family. Every family is different and we can all look the same and we never have and, you know, children are fine. Either way, if they've got parents who are loving and aware of their needs AIDS and, you know, constructively working on helping them become functional people. They're fine, whatever. And they just children have to deal with whatever family they're given. And that's just the way it's always been. But I guess the guilt thing is big, because I think there is a quote from Helen Garner at the very end of my book, and I can't quite remember it, but I thought it was really significant, which is something along the lines of, you know, no amount of political change, or feminist action, can completely resolve the problem of women's internal experience of motherhood and guilt. And it just seems to be so intrinsic to men's experience of mothering that they can just never be everywhere at once. And that feels like what the demand the job demands, sometimes, you're trying to, you're trying to be everything to everyone, and still sort of retained some hold over, you know, your own interests and keep them somewhere on the list. So I don't, yeah, I don't have a very sort of solid answer to that. Except that, in my experience, it just doesn't seem to be something that anyone can easily do away with. And I don't quite know why that is. The reason most successful women I mean, that that was one of the interesting things, even the women, though, the most successful women in my book, so the and by that I don't, actually, by that, I don't mean, the most successful because, you know, lots of women who are making incredible art haven't had public success, but the women who'd had the most public success, didn't feel and were making squillions, you know, so they could absolutely justified in that way. Didn't feel any less guilty. And that was really interesting to me. So Rachel Griffiths, who at that time was doing some la show that, you know, she would have been making big bucks. Her partner was home full time, he was a painter, but he was home full time. They had a nanny, she could throw money at the problem that that's her words whenever she needed to. That did not stop her feeling constantly guilty. And she also mentioned that I thought was really interesting is that she didn't feel that guilty when she went out to work. Like literally just had to go to work. But she also wanted to do these class like acting classes, she still felt like she wanted to help her craft and practice her craft, and that she had a lot of room to get better. And she was doing voice classes. And she felt incredibly guilty whenever she took time out to do that. Because that felt indulgent, in a way that perhaps, you know, the job didn't. So yeah, look, I don't know how. Yeah. So for that one, sorry. I think it's a topic that people will be talking about till the end of time. Yeah. I think so. There's no such thing as dead guilties. They're, like, really interesting. And that's why I'm I keep coming back to this idea that there is something different because, you know, that was the other question I got constantly, as you can imagine, when I when I first put these editions out, and I was doing lots of festivals and radio, and blah, blah, blah, I would constantly get that question. Why haven't you included men? Why haven't you included fathers? You know, there are lots of artists fathers out there doing it tough as well. And I don't doubt that my answer to that was like write your own book, I'd love to read that book. You know, if men feel so strongly about this, then one of these artists fathers should write that book because I think it would be really interesting to hear about how, how men experiencing their this role. And it you know that especially because the times are changing, and perhaps a lot of male at us are the ones home with children, if their partners are in the the more conventional workforce. So I'm still waiting for that book. But I think the one of the reasons that book hasn't happened is because clearly the experience for women is different and arguably more acute. And I don't think men do on the whole experience. That guilt, that sense of pressure, that sense of feeling like they're meant to be in a million places at one It's yeah. And, and I think that's partly because women don't just take on? Well, I think it's because women do take on, by and large, the physical load of family life, but also, by and large, the emotional load of family life. And I think that probably is just something intrinsic about, you know, overall women's makeup. I mean, I, I'm not saying that men don't care, of course they do. And a lot of men, and a lot they, you know, there are a lot of single fathers out there who've had to really take this on. But I think that emotional load is by and large, carried by women, and usually that includes the kind of care they have to have for their partners as well as their children. And then also, I think women's friendships take up a lot of time, because women tend to be in a caring role for a lot of people in their lives, not just their immediate family. You know, they've got important loyalties to their friends, to their parents, you know, and so on that often also take up a hell of a lot of time. The writer Anna Maria de la Sol said, it's assumed that if you're serious about being an artist, you don't have small children. You make a choice early in your career, that if you're a woman, and you're going to be an artist, that she can't have children, because if you have children, then you can't be an artist. I wanted to ask you actually, I saw in your bio online that you did a book about Alison raffish. And I'm interested to know, because this is, I think, was it published back in early 2000s. Is that right? Yeah. So it wasn't a uni thesis. Right. So you wouldn't have been anywhere in this headspace when you did that book about Alison? No, because it was very interesting, because I read that she had a child, a 13 year old child, and left to go off to England to pursue a life of art when she was 33. Left, her child left her husband and wife she went yeah. And I just thought, Gosh, it would have been good to speak to her. I know. Imagine, I interviewed her daughter. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I guess I've always been interested in women artists. And I've always been interested in. I mean, I suppose I grew up probably enthralled by male artists. And it took me a long time to realize that, that women's art had been really underrecognized. And I want to started sort of thinking about that. I really started looking at Australian women artists and how many amazing women artists there were, who we'd never heard of. And so actually, my, my dad is really interested in Australian women artists too. And he, he actually collects art, you know, he goes to auctions and finds these, you know, unheard of artists in Job lots and that kind of thing. And he started collecting these small paintings by lots of women artists, actually, but one of them was Alison Ray fish. And so he started just doing a bit of research, and then we started researching her together. And I was still at uni. And I was I've never, I've never gone on to do any sort of further study because, as I said, by the time I finished my undergraduate degree, I was I was pregnant, so so it didn't have a chance to do a thesis, which is a shame because it actually would have been really good pieces. So in a way, I just sort of wrote my own thesis. While at uni, and I had a lovely I had a lovely art history lecturer, lecturer at uni called Ken vac, who was very encouraging. And I just did this in my sort of spare time. And so I yeah, I as you say, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't aware of the of the seriousness of that. But I guess what I became aware of is that all women then to be taken seriously as an artist as an Australian. You pretty much had to make it in the UK. So people tend to go to the UK, you know, get hung at the sell on Um, you know, get some exhibitions there, get some recognition there, and then come back if they came back. I mean, a lot never came back. But but you know, if they could make it in the UK, then they could be recognized in Australia. Very few artists have managed to make a name for themselves purely within Australia in that time. And we're talking early 1900s. And Alison Ray fish was sort of working in the 20s 30s and 40s. And so I suppose I suppose she is an example of a woman who put her art first and decided that art was more important to her than family. And, yeah, kind of unbelievably, I guess. And not in the sense that I suppose it was also a time where I think women had to make a choice, though, the choice felt Stark, you couldn't live both lives. I mean, I know some women did. Of course, there were women artists who had children. But maybe for many, it felt that you either had to choose to become a wife and mother or you could be an artist, but you couldn't easily be both. And I think I obviously felt important enough to her that she felt like she had to make this choice. And maybe she decided that once her daughter was 13. And at boarding school, was old enough to, to live without her. And she took off to the UK. Yeah, for a very, very long time. And not only that, yeah, left her husband and, and took up with another man, a fellow artist, a fellow Australian artists didn't never went back, or never went back to Australia, but never went back to her husband. So yeah, it's funny, isn't it that this didn't have as much significance for me at that, in terms of the the ongoing interest I would have, as I realized at the time, and now I can see the kind of interesting link. Huh, it's yeah, it's almost like you had to experience motherhood yourself. To get in that, that space. You can't, you can't get a really good take on it by observing it from outside. What was it like? I think it took my daughter, what I've read online, of what her daughter said, but yeah, what was that? Like? Yeah, her daughter is Peggy. She there was a sense that she she was pretty closed about it, I would say so she, she was really proud of her mother. She was really proud of her mother's work. And she says she had that admiration for her mother. And I think her relationship with her mother in adulthood was actually quite okay. But I could really sense the hurt and the pain. But I guess she had that sort of stiff upper lip, and wasn't really fully admitting to, to that by the time I interviewed her, which was pretty late in her life. So she probably had a lot of time to, you know, find a way to feel resolved about it. So when when I spoke to her, she was actually pretty sympathetic and understanding about the position that her mother was in. Yeah, surprisingly, so. Yeah, that's very. But yeah, I don't even know what the words though. It's quite incredible. Do you think that Alison felt like the era she was living in there was this expectation that you just got married and had children and that was it so she just had to do it? And it wasn't too, that she was stuck in that, that she just sort of went, Oh, God, now I've got a she almost like she put part of herself aside for a little while until like you said her daughter was 13. And she felt like she could probably live without her. And then she went Riley, my life is gonna start again. Now I'm picking up where I left off basically, and, and obviously went yeah, exactly. I think that. Yeah, there was an expectation. The man she married was quite a successful businessman. So I guess she probably the security of that was probably appealing, because I don't think she came. Well, you know, she came from a very interesting educated family. But you know, no, one woman could easily support herself at that time. And so yeah, I think absolutely she she married because that was the the expectation and probably for that security. I think by all accounts, he was a very devoted father. So that probably helped her leave. But um, yeah, I think that's right. She the, the urgency or the need to make art the absolute center of her life. I think that probably was always there. And then by the time she felt she could make the break she Yeah, I think she, she was one of those people that wanted and needed to paint all day every day. And I think that's what she did. Was just so strong for it that nothing else came close. It was like she just stood to paint. Yeah, yeah. One thing I wanted to mention, there was something you touched on in your book about? You said, Why didn't anyone tell me it would be like this. It has to do with the brutal fact of time prior to having a baby, I had no real concept of time. And I just wanted to say how much I relate to that, is that I thought to myself, What did I actually do with my time before I had children? Like, I just thought, I must have wasted a lot of time. Like, I know, gosh, I know. I mean, it is so weird. That feeling of before and after in terms of your relationship with time, it because now I still feel like I've, you know, those tiny windows that you've got to you feel like there are a million things competing for that, you know, like creativity, I don't know, paying bills, exercise, you know, seeing catching up with a friend. I don't know meditating. If you meditate. I just not to mention how, you know, you could, yeah, the demands are so big. And then you feel like you've got all these little windows. And if, as an artist, you would, you would know if you don't respond to those moments and shut everything. That time can just be eaten up in a flash before you even thought about it. I mean, I, I remember, I would sort of start walking towards my desk thinking, Yes, I'm going to write I'm going to write, and then I would find myself picking up the washing basket and out in the laundry. And then I think, hold on, how did I get here. But it wasn't I'm making my way to the desk. It's like this. I thought I'm not good at that at all. I mean, increasingly, I felt like, I get why I was the one who wrote that book. Because I'm really bad at this. And I needed other people to tell me, you know, if you want to make art, you are going to have to stay so strong. To shadow all the other demands out, you have to. And the other thing, I think that the message that I felt came through really strongly was that nothing else and no one else is going to give you that permission, you are going to have to give yourself that permission to create art. You know, that's not going to come on a platter, probably everyone else is going to be quite happy if you give it away, actually, I mean, not not the people who love the work that you make, but you know, in to your kids, and maybe even your partner, or maybe even your family would be quite relieved, if you could, because it's a struggle, and it creates a lot of angst. And so yeah, you've you've I mean, I don't know, do you feel like that? Do you feel like you've got to stay really strong in that in that need and that sort of determination to create space for it? Absolutely. Because if you don't, I feel like you lose a part of who you are. Yeah, I really do. Yeah. And like you said, you're the only person that can give yourself permission and thus the divided heart like it's, it's the perfect analogy. It's you either do something that might seem like you're neglecting something else, but if you don't do that thing, then you're neglecting yourself. So it's just this. Yeah, yeah. And also I think actually neglecting yourself, you might not realize it early on. But as time goes on, if you do neglect yourself for too long, particularly with something like this, I mean for everyone, it's different. You know? What, what amounts to neglecting themselves, but in terms of art, which I think is so intrinsic to people, for people who need to make art, it's, it's actually really dangerous to neglect that part of yourself, it becomes increasingly dangerous, because then you can actually become quite hollow. And yeah, I think if we, if we allow ourselves to just merely become functional, without addressing all those other very important emotional and creative needs that we have, we are not going to be a good role model for our children. Because our children need to see people around them who do the things that they love to do, and dedicate themselves to the things that they feel are important. And that also I think that they, they see that art is real, you know, that art is meaningful, and that you can have a life of art and it's not. It's not trivial, and it's not indulgent. It's, it's important. So, yeah, I think you've got to keep that in mind, too. You know, kids don't want maybe they do, maybe they'd love, you know, vacuous automaton looking after them. I think, actually, you know, much more important to have real relationships within families, real people, you know, that kids see, get a chance to see the full person that their parents are that we allow them to see, you know, different ways of living and being. So, yeah, I think that's, that's something everyone's got to remember, not only for themselves, that it's spiritually essential to maintain those things, so that you don't become miserable and resentful, because the resentment is a big thing and resentment is toxic. So, but also, yeah, for for our children to have that. That picture of what's possible. Do you find your children now as they're growing up? Did they see that I see what you you're doing in your career and your art? And they? Is it important for you that they recognize, I guess, the importance of what you're doing and contributing to the world? Well, I mean, I can't speak for myself very well, because I haven't, you know, I mean, I do keep writing all the time, but I haven't. I mean, I've actually found it incredibly difficult to maintain my own writing. While I've been raising children and, and working. I also think that when you work in a conventional job, that's also a challenge, it's really challenging to move, why I find it challenging to move between those two modes, because that's the other difficulty with that art requires a lot of kind of quiet music and space. And it actually is a kind of it is a way of being as much as it is a practice. And I hope, actually, funnily enough, having children I think, hasn't been as challenging for me as time has gone on, as working has been to maintaining that way of being. Because there's so many, there's so many lovely things about having children, too, that I think, fit quite beautifully with a creative life. But work is challenging. And work is related because I work because I have to help support my family in a way that I might not have had to if I had not chosen to have children, I might have been able to work less and make more time for it. But I do my my daughter is a big reader. Now and which is great, because as I said she's had to really overcome some massive learning difficulties. And because of that, I think, because we worked so hard on her reading, it's made her a reader, which is and so she really loves talking about books, and she really loves talking about writing, and she's constantly encouraging me now to have a child that says you've got to write you should write you should write more. You know, he's actually really sweet and I really value that my son who's just obsessed with footy is totally oblivious. You All right. So yeah, I think yeah, I, I feel really lucky though that I think I feel like I've got a real relationship with my kids, they understand who I am. They know, I've got complex needs, and they, they're very, you know, I feel like they seen me as much as anyone ever sees them. Mom is a, you know, real person, they see me as a real person. I love that, because I have been quite open about, you know, my without, without directly sort of burdening them with with it, I have been, at times quite open about my frustrations and, you know, my desires to be more creative. And so, you know, I don't think there's any harm in harm in that. I don't sort of want to I don't want to be hanging out for retirement though. My my children is 16 and 19. Now, and so I'm feeling much closer to having that time where it's amazing how you think 16 and 19. You know, you think, Oh, well, the youth should be completely free. Now. Maybe some people would be but no. Like, getting my son through year 12 was like one of the most hellish years I've ever had, maybe particularly because it was in lockdown. So getting a child through year 12, while you're basically at home, doing remote learning is something I don't ever want to have to do again. But But I do feel like I'm getting closer to not so much just time and space, but my mind being my own, and not having to be as full of every everyone else's needs as it used to have to be. So you know, there's liberation ahead. Like, yeah, more creative space and time. I mean, I've sort of written, I've written a novel in draft form, in in the most ridiculous bits and pieces over the most ridiculous number of years. It's embarrassing. But I'm hoping that, you know, at some point, it will take shape. Hmm, fantastic. Because I was actually going to ask you, if you've got sort of, obviously, you would have projects you're working on. But is there is there something that is close to being shared with the world? I think probably it's a few years off yet, but I have finally, you know, have inched out, I've inched ahead. The funny thing, too, I've found is that, I think probably because I've struggled so much to have time, I'll often start something new. And then I'll get into it. And then I'll look back at something I wrote 10 years ago, 10 years ago and go oh my god, it's actually this novel. I'd be writing the same novel for 15 years. Yeah, it's funny how the themes come back, and back and back. And actually, weirdly, no matter how much I tried to get away from it, the novel that I've been working up is absolutely about women and art. And it just seems to be this preoccupation. And so that is what I'm weirdly writing about. And I'm really hoping that in you know, I'll get enough time in the next few years to actually pull it all together and have it makes sense enough to be something that could be Yeah, published. We'll see Fingers crossed. Oh, I wish you luck.

Emma Stenhouse Indigenous Australian artist S4Ep100 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week on the podcast we are celebrating 100 episodes ! Hip hip horray! My guest is Emma Stenhouse, an Indigenous artisan and Ngarrindjeri Woman who is the mother of 3 children. Emma can be described as many things - indigenous artisan, Ngarrindjeri Woman, artist, weaver, printmaker, designer and sewist. Emma Stenhouse is taking the first steps on her journey in belonging and becoming connected with her Ngarrindjeri heritage. Her work is predominantly inspired by nature and connection to country using elements of contemporary art and traditional Iconography. Emma ignites the flame of love for Country in other hearts and minds. A multifaceted creative, she explores diverse practices. Each piece is braided with learning, exchange between artist and viewer, a continuation of culture - a platform for cross cultural exchange An experienced early childhood educator, Emma imparts her knowledge of culture, implementing programming including traditional indigenous creative practices guided by Gunditjmara elders. A gatherer and sharer of knowledge, she uses this to guide her own journey. She builds capacity for others to learn and develop their own connections. Emma's story spans across four decades, desert and sea; as she explores the challenges and monuments of her cultural growth, connection to Country and being an Artist. Moving through time and space, from the bush to the beach her stories are formed by her deep relationship to land and guided by strong female role models in her community. **Emma’s epiosde contains mentions of the loss of a child** Emma - website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo , my new age ambient muic trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,520 Welcome to the Art of Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:15,400 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,480 while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:25,000 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been influenced by motherhood, 5 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:33,440 mum guilt, cultural norms and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:39,600 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a link to the music played, 7 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:46,440 how to get in touch and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. 8 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:54,120 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at any time you're concerned about your mental health 9 00:00:54,120 --> 00:01:00,840 I urge you to talk to those around you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 10 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:08,840 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, alisonnewman.net. 11 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,400 The Art of Being a Mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water 12 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,160 which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bowendig people. 13 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:26,200 I'm working on land that was never seeded. 14 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:31,880 Hello and welcome to episode 100 of the Art of Being a Mum podcast. 15 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:37,960 It is an absolutely amazing experience to say that I have stuck with this for 100 episodes 16 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:46,600 and that I have been lucky enough to have 100 mums and a few dads hang out with me and want to share openly and honestly. 17 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:52,920 And for you guys to listen. Thank you so much for being a part of this, it is such a wonderful experience for me 18 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:59,800 and I hope it can continue. My work hours are getting a little bit more flexible so fingers crossed 19 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:06,440 there'll be more podcasts to come. But of course in the meantime please enjoy my written article series 20 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:12,120 which is pretty much the same as the podcast but it's completely answered by my guests. 21 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:19,400 So I give them the questions, they write back the answers and I collate them and put it into the website. 22 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:25,240 So you can check those out at alisonnewman.net slash articles. 23 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:32,600 My 100th guest this week is Emma Stenhouse. Emma's an Indigenous artisan and Narangjerri woman 24 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:40,200 and she's the mother of three children. Emma can be described as many things, Indigenous artist, 25 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:47,240 weaver, printmaker, designer and sewist. Emma's taking the first steps on her journey to belonging 26 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:53,800 and becoming connected with her Narangjerri heritage. Her work is predominantly inspired by nature 27 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:59,160 and her connection to country using elements of contemporary art and traditional iconography. 28 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:05,960 Emma ignites the flame of love for country in other hearts and minds. A multi-faceted creative 29 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:12,120 she explores diverse practices and each piece is braided with learning, exchange between artist 30 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:18,040 and viewer, a continuation of culture and a platform for cross-cultural exchange. 31 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:24,520 An experienced early childhood educator Emma imparts her knowledge of culture implementing 32 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,920 programming including traditional Indigenous creative practices guided by Gundurama elders. 33 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:37,000 A gatherer and share of knowledge Emma uses this to guide her own journey. She builds capacity for 34 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:44,360 others to learn and develop their own connections. Emma's story spans across four decades across 35 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:50,440 desert and sea as she explores the challenges and monuments of her cultural growth, connection to 36 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:56,840 country and being an artist. Moving through time and space from the bush to the beach her stories 37 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:03,160 are formed by her deep relationship to land and guided by strong female role models in her community. 38 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:09,240 Please be aware that Emma's episode contains discussions about the loss of a child. 39 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:17,000 Throughout today's episode you'll hear music from Indigenous Australians, our First Nations people 40 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,640 and this is used with permission. Thank you so much for tuning in again it is such a 41 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:29,160 such a momentous moment such a moment to be celebrating 100 episodes and I'm so thrilled 42 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:54,520 that you're here and I hope that you'll hang out with me again in the future. 43 00:04:54,520 --> 00:05:03,400 Thank you so much Emma it's a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast today thanks for coming on. 44 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:10,440 Thank you very much for having me I'm very excited. Oh awesome so you're in Western Victoria 45 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,160 in Warrnambool which isn't that far from me which is pretty exciting. I think you're the 46 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:21,000 closest person I've had on apart from people in my own town. Oh wow um yeah I've been to Warrnambool 47 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:26,200 I've been to Mount Gambier a couple of times um just for work so I haven't really been over there 48 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,440 to check it out too much but um I'd love to go over and have a wander around there's some lakes 49 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,640 or something close by to you guys that I want to go yeah swimming in. Yes oh yes so we've got the 50 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,320 Blue Lake which is like our water source which is like the most beautiful blue sort of November 51 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:47,160 onwards um but yes the little blue lake is that's our like local swimming spot that we love to go 52 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,840 like our family um and it's like a just a just a sinkhole in the middle of a paddock out in the 53 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:58,520 middle of nowhere and it's freezing most of the time but for a very short period of time in summer 54 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:04,120 it's really really good so it's pretty popular. I'm used to the colds um yeah I actually don't go 55 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:09,560 in the water here without a wetsuit so I'm a country kid I'm originally from Broken Hill so I 56 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:16,200 grew up um in the desert and loving the heat so it's been a real um shock to the sister moving 57 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:23,320 here and adjusting to the climate because it's always so cold. Oh yeah look I can I can relate 58 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,680 to that and you're probably even colder than what we are because you're right near the ocean like 59 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:32,760 on the ocean there aren't you? Yeah we're literally um a block back from the beach so the wind is you 60 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:39,400 know always quite strong and very chilly. Yeah now my um mum used to have a horse that used to get 61 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:44,280 trained over there and they'd always send us videos of the horses like paddling in the water and I 62 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:50,840 always think god that looks so cold those poor horses. I know I know I walk the beach every day 63 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:57,560 and um watch them train the horses and yeah often just shudder looking at them and the jockeys who 64 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:04,360 who do actually like get in with them and oh yeah not my not my cup of tea but it is lovely to watch. 65 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:10,280 Yeah yeah no it'd be good having that around um so do you mind me asking what what brought you to 66 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:17,480 Born & Poop? Yeah so my husband's job we um both of us are born and bred in Broken Hill um and 67 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:23,080 I guess we went on a bit of a five-week holiday along the south coast of New South Wales 68 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,600 with our two sons um in a camper trailer and kind of did the off-grid thing a little bit 69 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:35,880 and then sort of moved back to town and thought oh why are we living here like it's beautiful 70 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:45,400 um and it's home but just the opportunities um for our kids just yeah I guess it's quite isolated 71 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:53,080 to live you know um in the far west of New South Wales so yeah my husband decided to try for a 72 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:58,200 sea change so he applied for the job in um Warrnambool and we told everyone a big fat lie 73 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:03,080 and told them we were going to Melbourne for the weekend and we secretly came to Warrnambool and 74 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,240 spent three days here and he had his interview and we you know scoped the place out and checked out 75 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,280 the schools and you know wondered if it would be okay for us to live here and then yeah um 76 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:17,320 he sort of got the call and said you've got the job and he left within sort of two weeks and 77 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:24,040 yeah I stayed home in Broken Hill with the kids until Lucky finished high school and then we moved 78 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:31,000 yeah just before Christmas so um I haven't looked back I mean it's the complete opposite um but I 79 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,960 feel really blessed I guess to have two beautiful homes that are so different to each other 80 00:08:35,960 --> 00:09:02,200 um yeah absolutely I love that that's a great great yeah best of both worlds yeah that's it 81 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:12,360 So you're an artist can you tell everyone what sort of style of art that you make 82 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:18,520 and what sort of mediums that you use? Sure so um I'm an Indigenous artist um a contemporary 83 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:25,640 Indigenous artist so I use traditional iconography um in a contemporary way I guess and my art is 84 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:35,000 about storytelling uh and the stories that I um create I guess uh sort of speak to um my journey 85 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:40,920 um in connecting to culture but also the strong women that have um guided me through this process 86 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:49,800 um I guess I was I sort of always knew I was Aboriginal but hadn't had that really strong 87 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:55,400 guidance in my life up until I turned 40 and sort of went oh this is missing in my life so 88 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:03,240 yeah just re-established those um family connections and um yeah now really lucky 89 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:11,800 to be a full-time artist so um as far as my artwork I paint in I paint with acrylics um but 90 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:17,800 I kind of I can't limit myself I like to have a go at everything so um I've been making my own 91 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:22,200 ochre um watercolour that's sort of been happening the last couple of weeks um 92 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:33,000 with sort of guidance from lovely um Aboriginal elders and yeah I love printmaking just any 93 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,000 any sort of medium I guess um I'll have a crack at it. Well that'd keep things interesting though 94 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:44,120 wouldn't it like if you said I don't get bored at all. Yeah absolutely I've actually got one of your 95 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:49,880 when you said on the email that your your artwork is at Green Door here in Mount Gambier and I've 96 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:56,280 actually got um I can't remember what it was called now but it's um it's pink and it sort of 97 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:02,200 goes in an arch. Oh yep. And there was a blue one that was kind of similar and um yeah unfortunately 98 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,840 I'm not in the normal place I am for recording you'd be able to see it behind me which would 99 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:15,880 have been really cool. I'm very grateful to Annie um she's been um a wonderful support to me but 100 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:23,000 not just me I mean female artists in general she has just really helped just all I guess um 101 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,480 yeah put ourselves out there a bit more and have that sort of 102 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:34,120 just that kind support she's she's just such a lovely warm person and really genuine um so yeah 103 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,520 I do feel really lucky and I know sort of um some of the other artists who have their work there 104 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:43,240 feel the same so very blessed. Yeah shout out to Annie if she's listening. 105 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:56,120 Oh dear. 106 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:10,520 Were you always um into painting and creating growing up? 107 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Absolutely I can't actually remember a time where I wasn't making something so I remember 108 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,160 being a kid and you know just doing little drawings for my aunties um 109 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:32,520 my Nan was a dressmaker so I loved to watch her sew um and that's sort of something I had to go 110 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:38,600 at I guess um in my 30s that was that became quite a passion for me learning to sew and um 111 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:46,120 getting my all my Nan's old beautiful buttons and things like that and just um developing a real 112 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:54,840 strong sort of sense of textile and pattern and surface design um and then I've yeah I've 113 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:00,120 went through another stage where it was all about screen printing so I went and you know got when 114 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:06,440 I did some courses and um yeah I had a little shop in Broken Hill where I used to run screen 115 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:14,840 printing workshops and I'd teach you know anyone I guess from sort of five years old up to 101 was 116 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,320 I went out to the nursing home and did a um we made tea towels with the residents out there and 117 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:25,000 yeah I was really lucky to I just yeah meeting people through my arts practice is like the biggest 118 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:31,160 gift ever. Yeah yeah and having that community and being able to share common a common interest 119 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:37,320 with people. Yeah absolutely yeah. So you mentioned that you're you've got your Indigenous heritage 120 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:46,120 has that always inspired what you're creating? It's always uh it's always been there in terms 121 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,800 of like I've had such a strong connection to country and nature like I think that's just an 122 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:58,680 innate thing that I've I've always had I've always been that outside kid and been fascinated in in 123 00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:03,960 nature like you know just the simple things like a leaf you know the veins on a leaf they they're 124 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:10,360 captivating um you know dragonflies lizards all sorts of things I was the kid that was always 125 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,840 came home with you know a pocket full of rocks and a stick and you know a leaf or a feather 126 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:22,120 um so just having that real connection to country I think and then sort of you know in the last few 127 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:30,360 years really connecting with um with my family and learning learning about culture but on so many 128 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:37,320 different deeper levels um and just I guess allowing myself to acknowledge that knowing that 129 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:44,520 I've always had but um haven't had the guidance from family to to help me explore that. Yeah yeah 130 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:51,240 and yeah to sort of to take you into those deeper places and you talk about the um the traditional 131 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:56,040 imagery that you use was that something that you'd always sort of done or has that sort of come in 132 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:03,080 more since you sort of connected? I've always I've always had a like I don't know I've always had 133 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:09,400 like um like questions and are wondering like where does where do I fit in in all of this 134 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:17,320 um like growing up in Broken Hill my dad um was Aboriginal but he left so I sort of grew up um 135 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,280 just with my mum and my brother and we you know we lived in a commission house on the outskirts of 136 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:28,040 town um there were a lot of other Aboriginal people and families that lived in our street 137 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:33,880 but I had really fair skin compared to them so I didn't sort of feel like I fitted in there 138 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:40,600 and then I was sort of too dark to be you know like one of the white kids I suppose so I've 139 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:45,560 always had this sort of feeling that I never sort of quite fitted in and I think that's led me to 140 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:52,200 want to explore like in a lot of aspects of life just I've always had that curiosity I suppose 141 00:15:53,080 --> 00:16:04,520 and so yeah I've really um consciously been I guess just peeling back layers if you will trying 142 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:10,040 to find out as much as I can not just about my family but um you know but culture in general and 143 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:17,240 and the traditional practices and how they've um how they've evolved over the years um you know 144 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,280 things even though we're still practicing the same art forms they've obviously you know evolved and 145 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:29,080 changed so I guess celebrating that and that learning where it comes from because that's 146 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,880 I guess that's the essence of it for me like that that the traditional stuff. 147 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:42,040 Mm-hmm yeah and I think um look coming from someone that has no education sort of not a 148 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:47,000 great understanding of Indigenous culture I like I love the patterns and the colours that people 149 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:55,000 use like the contemporary Indigenous art and it's just it seems so um flippant to just say 150 00:16:55,000 --> 00:17:00,040 that I like the patterns and the colours because it's such a there's so much deeper meaning in that 151 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,400 and the story that that that it actually tells if you know what I mean like there's just so much 152 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,360 depth in this that it's like you can't just look at it and go that looks nice you know what I mean 153 00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:16,760 that would be just doing it like a disservice if that makes sense. Yeah absolutely yeah um and 154 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:23,960 that's interesting just because I don't know I think you know in the past sort of 10 years people 155 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:30,440 are becoming more aware and more connected to Aboriginal art like it's been viewed you know 156 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:37,800 around the world with such like wonder and you know the beauty of it but I guess people are 157 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:43,080 understanding that connection now so when we paint you know we're painting our story so um 158 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:50,920 yeah I think I think it's changing at the moment and that's really nice because that allows us to 159 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,320 connect with each other and I think you know after COVID we're all sort of like 160 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,640 leaning into that a bit more. Yeah looking for that looking for that connection and 161 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:20,920 meaning deeper meaning of life I think in general yeah people are striving for yeah. 162 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,880 So you mentioned uh your children briefly how many children you said you had two boys? 163 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:43,880 Yeah so I have um my eldest is 18 um and he's just finished high school and I feel really old but I 164 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:50,200 have an 18 year old son and can't believe it because it just happened in the blink of an eye 165 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:57,480 um and I have a 12 year old um son as well and he's just started high school so 166 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:04,680 it's that's all very new um and I just do want to acknowledge like I also have um a daughter who 167 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:11,160 would have been um 15 this year and she yeah she passed away um the day that she was born but she's 168 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:17,880 sort of been a very big part of my life and I acknowledge her I guess in all that I do um 169 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:25,400 having that experience um sort of changed me profoundly in a lot of ways but it's given me 170 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:30,360 the perspective that like life's short and if you want to do something then you just you should just 171 00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:36,120 jump in and have a go like you don't really have anything to lose you like what's the worst that 172 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:40,760 can happen I feel like I've already been through the worst so yeah you know just having that 173 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,920 different perspective and and again you know that's what I guess that brings me back to like that 174 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,080 wanting to connect to family and knowing more about myself and where I've come from and 175 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:54,600 yeah I'm sorry sorry to hear about your daughter that's thank you um thank you for sharing it 176 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:01,560 with us it's a it's you know it's a heartbreaking thing to live with um 177 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,960 I guess all I can say is that I've tried to focus on the positive things that have come from that 178 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,000 like the beautiful relationships that I've um have with other women and families who have been 179 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:21,560 through the same thing um and just my work with Red Nose so I um I work with Red Nose 180 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:33,240 at the moment through their Reconciliation Action Plan so um their WRAP um and just anyway I 181 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,480 and anyway I can support them because that like they've been a great support to my family. 182 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:43,160 No that's not that's really lovely so for people who who might not be familiar the Red Nose um 183 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:49,800 involved with the SIDS. So they were they were they're formerly um SIDS and KIDS yeah and they 184 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:56,280 amalgamated with SANS which is a South Australian organisation as well so they provide sort of 185 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:02,760 education and support um and wonderful programs I guess for families like mine who were quite 186 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,120 isolated at that time we in Broken Hill we didn't have any like we didn't even have a grief counsellor 187 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:15,640 so um I sort of took it upon myself to um get some help not just for me there are a lot of other 188 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:21,800 women in the community as well so um I reached out to Red Nose and was lucky enough to have an 189 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,920 educator come out to Broken Hill and spend time with families but also the health professionals 190 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:32,760 as well um just giving them education on how to better support um families who have gone through 191 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:40,280 the loss of a child so yeah as much as things were you know really hard at that time I feel like I 192 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:51,560 tried to I don't know make positive choices in that situation yeah um sort of helped me 193 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:57,320 get through that time yeah and to be able to gain that help for other people and 194 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:02,760 I guess there's always a sense of you know you don't you wouldn't wish this on anyone sort of 195 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,560 feeling so you know you're giving that that help to other people in your community as well 196 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:17,720 yeah absolutely but also um I guess you know we've come a long way I have in my family I guess I 197 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:23,640 was the third generation who had like lost a child so I had an auntie who'd lost a child and my 198 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:31,000 grandmother had lost children as well so just knowing their experience and how unfortunately 199 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:37,560 how it was dealt with you know back in those days to how far we've come right now um and the work 200 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,440 that I'm doing with SIDS and Kids is now about you know getting education out to remote communities 201 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,720 as well so particularly um you know our remote Aboriginal communities all over the country who 202 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:57,160 yeah just need a bit more support and um yeah it's it's a it's a tricky thing there's a lot 203 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:04,200 sort of culturally that's you know it's hard like language you know barriers and just just distance 204 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:09,080 I guess and access to services so uh that's something I'm very passionate about as well 205 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,880 hmm yeah good on you for doing that 206 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:45,240 when you had you when you first became a mum did you go through like a really big sort of shift in 207 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:51,640 your identity where you sort of went who am I now you know am I still Emma I'm someone's mom like 208 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:58,680 where do where do I sort of fit in to this yeah oh and I think we all do like it's just that's just 209 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:05,720 um goes hand in hand with when you become a parent I when I had Lockie um 210 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:13,400 um oh gosh I remember just being so full of anxiety you know am I doing this right what am 211 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,680 I doing oh he's crying all the time he won't settle for me you know just that total lack of 212 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:25,320 confidence um that you have when you're a new mum even though like I had an amazing group of 213 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:33,320 friends and my my mum was amazing like I had lots of support um but I found like the first probably 214 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:40,200 12 months sort of quite challenging um and then I don't know has as he got older and I felt like 215 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:47,000 things got easier and I sort of found my way um I just loved every minute like him and I had such a 216 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:54,200 close um relationship you know I stayed at home until he went to school um and then I sort of I 217 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:59,800 studied early childhood education as well um because I just thought well I don't have the tools 218 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,680 so if I go and do a bit of study that's only going to help my relationship you know with my kids so 219 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:11,800 and that's been that's been a huge part of my life and still is like that the education and 220 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:18,600 that sharing with children is just I don't know they're just amazing like they just have that 221 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:24,840 joy that we sort of lose as we get older um and working with them just keeps that sort of relevant 222 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:30,120 for me it's still it's always there that joy that they have that sense of wonder at the world and 223 00:25:30,120 --> 00:25:35,160 yeah I love that totally relate to that I'm an early childhood educator I work in a kindy at the 224 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:41,000 moment and it's like they just keep you so like grounded on what's actually important in life and 225 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,280 what's happening right in front of you oh absolutely you know the worst thing might have happened this 226 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,280 morning like at home if you know not the worst thing but you know the boys might have given me 227 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,200 trouble getting them up they didn't want to get up or they can't find their shoes or whatever but 228 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:59,880 at work it's like someone finds a rock and that is like the center of attention like this rock 229 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,920 where did it come from what is it what does it do you know it just brings you back to this 230 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:10,120 basis that sense of curiosity and I think that's why I've just been really passionate about early 231 00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:15,720 childhood education for like the best part of 15 years it's played a huge role in my life 232 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:25,000 yeah and I'm really lucky now that I get to go and work in schools sort of with my arts practice and 233 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:34,040 sharing like my art techniques and just you know general art I guess techniques and different 234 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:42,120 mediums but coupling that with culture as well and just they're like little sponges you know like 235 00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:47,240 they have just you share one thing with them and you know that that's the thing that they're going 236 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,200 to go home and talk to their parents about like it's yeah it's amazing it's so much fun it is 237 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,000 isn't it I just absolutely love it I only came to the industry probably 10 years ago and I just wish 238 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:03,720 I had a founder earlier because it's just the best it just keeps you just so I don't know on this other 239 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:10,680 level of looking at life I don't know oh and they definitely keep you grounded as well like you know 240 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,520 you can't like if you haven't been to the hairdresser for a little while and you've got some 241 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,080 sparkles on the side you know first thing they point out oh geez emma you're looking a bit 242 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:24,440 your hair's looking a bit strange today or you've got sparkles in your hair oh yeah I know 243 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:40,920 oh nothing gets past them does it they're just so honest so honest 244 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,360 do you like I know I think it's formally called like artist in residence like do you go into the 245 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:04,200 schools and like work in on that sort of capacity with the children yeah well essentially yeah I've 246 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:12,760 we I do still call it like an artist in residence so um I have been who in the last little while so 247 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:19,240 I went out to work in a bill um you know again that's that like just that when you live remotely 248 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,760 you don't have the same opportunities as what you do like when you're in a more regional area so 249 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,840 I'm passionate about you know going out and sharing that with with those kids and they're like 250 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:36,360 yeah they have a completely different perspective on everything as well um last week I was over in 251 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:47,720 Camperdown and helped um Camperdown college we had six students um in the junior school and then 12 252 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:54,360 in the senior school and we created two murals so um yeah it's just expanding I guess their knowledge 253 00:28:54,360 --> 00:29:03,320 about culture but also reminding them to like not lose their wonder about how amazing nature is um 254 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:09,080 yeah and it's interesting like I present a nature collage and just you know when they come up and 255 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:14,040 grab the different uh bits and pieces of nature that I've collected you know that just that 256 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:19,560 oh like remember when we went to the beach and you know I went to the beach with my family and I saw a 257 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:27,160 shell like this or um you know just different bird feathers you know they'll talk about like the one 258 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:34,200 time that they got swooped by a magpie and you know just the stories and then I guess that just 259 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:41,640 reminds them to be yeah more connected to what's actually around them you know we're such a tech 260 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:48,040 a tech heavy society these days so getting back to nature is beneficial like on so you know there's 261 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:54,520 there's a gazillion studies about it but just go for a walk and yeah pick up a leaf and have a look 262 00:29:54,520 --> 00:30:00,520 at it or just go to the beach and have a wander you never know what you're going to find so um 263 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:09,480 yeah just that just that gentle reminder to be aware and um be connected. Yeah and the noticing 264 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:15,480 of things like I've like we're doing this term we're doing a book called um garden stew so it's all 265 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:21,240 the ingredients are all things we find in nature and there's this lovely little quokka that's like 266 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:26,360 the star of the book who's gathering all these things together so I've been asking my children 267 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,080 about just things they notice not necessarily at kindy but when they're on their way to kindy or 268 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,720 at home and some of the things that they share it's like you plant that little seed and then they 269 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,800 just start that it's like the whole world's open and like oh I noticed this and I noticed that and 270 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:45,160 there's a tree in my backyard I never realized it has these different color leaves and it's just so 271 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:50,200 I just love that it's just like boom and it all comes and seeing things in a different way and 272 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:56,840 yeah yeah I love it that just that's I guess that's the stuff that fills my cup up um yeah 273 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:04,680 so yeah I've done I did camp it down last week I'm heading into work with um two Catholic schools 274 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:13,080 in Melbourne and then I come home Friday night and then I head off to Ararat for um a week to work 275 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:21,880 with students over there again um we're creating a mural and um I guess I just sort of see my role 276 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,600 as a facilitator the work the work is like their story and their voice I just sort of give them 277 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,520 literally the tools and a bit of guidance to help create their own story because I think um 278 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,880 um it's always really important to share your own story but to hear other people's as well 279 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:47,000 yeah that's it isn't there's no point going into to a particular area um and you know putting out 280 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:52,680 what you you think or what you feel or whatever it's yeah because we are so different and you 281 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,760 talked about you know these tiny towns like this Warwick and Beale and Camberdown like they're in 282 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:02,120 the middle of like literally nowhere you know it's very different to you know say Waterville so 283 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,760 everyone's got their their own particular stories that relevant to where they are and how they 284 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,440 experience life yeah absolutely and it's interesting I guess like just going to Warwick and Beale you 285 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:18,280 know the pride that these kids have that they're farm kids and you know they grow they grow the 286 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:25,480 stuff that helps the rest of us you know each like it yeah they're so proud of that um and even you 287 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,040 know in Camberdown you know they they all have farms like they're on dairy farms you know that 288 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:37,000 they have whole industries and they know so much about it that you know I was like oh well tell me 289 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,080 you know what what happens here and what happens there and how many times a year do you guys you 290 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:46,680 know harvest your crops and yeah and it was just amazing and these little kids at kinder you know 291 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,200 their parents were bringing in bags of grain and um chickpeas and stuff that they'd grown at their 292 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,840 house and I was it was fascinating like really fascinating like just to have that okay it goes 293 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:06,840 from like a dust bowl out here in Warwick and Beale on their farm to you know like in our food it's 294 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:14,600 but kids have made that connection and it's yeah it's amazing just the pride that they have knowing 295 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:21,240 that like their family's contributing that they're literally feeding the rest of Australia yeah it's 296 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,400 pretty massive thing isn't it I guess it's easy to kind of feel forgotten about when you're you know 297 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,800 you know um living a bit more remotely than other people but yeah that was and we we really 298 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:37,880 celebrated that like in my time there that that um you know they they are really contributing and 299 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:46,600 like I would love to go back out there and spend some more time um I guess from me personally just 300 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:53,800 learning from them I mean I've not grown up in that environment so yeah yeah that's good isn't 301 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,520 it and I do love that they're so proud and they should be it's it's wonderful and I think actually 302 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,560 a lot of city people could kind of learn a lot from them about you know your food doesn't just 303 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,760 appear in a box or in a packet it actually comes from somewhere and from people working hard and 304 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:16,120 you know like I said she actually brought me in you know um all the different things that they 305 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,360 grow on their farm and the kids were like can you take when you go into the city can you take this 306 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:25,960 you know to show the kids and I was like yeah absolutely love that yes yeah yeah because it 307 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,720 was something I can't even remember what it was now but something's in my mind about the number 308 00:34:29,720 --> 00:34:33,960 of kids that didn't really know where milk came from I don't know if that I'm thinking of an 309 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,520 American thing or not and it kind of I thought how could you not know where your milk came from 310 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:44,280 like to out to me it's just it's obvious but you know maybe it's not that obvious and then 311 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:51,080 someone's told you or you've seen it I don't know I don't know it's like you're right and then I 312 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:57,160 guess we talked a lot about um you know they're they're growing things they're living off the 313 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:03,880 land and I guess then we link that back to you know um like Aboriginal culture like bush tucker 314 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:10,360 that we've we've had these things available to us and if we look after country then you know country 315 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:16,680 looks after us so it was really nice to explore those two things sort of side by side as well and 316 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:25,720 them then sort of understanding that I mean I grew up sort of you know in a really sort of remote 317 00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:31,560 place and you'd go out like we were on a property at times and you'd go out there and you'd think 318 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,360 there's nothing out here like nothing grows and then you know you'd go for a little drive in the 319 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,080 car and there'd be like a few kwangdong trees you know and then like say like there's food there's 320 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,360 stuff out there if you know about it so yeah you know that's been interesting for me I guess on my 321 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,880 own personal journey just um like learning about all the different sort of bush tucker and and 322 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:57,640 things like that I've always had that interest anyway but um yeah like digging a bit deeper into 323 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:10,520 it so it's been great 324 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:44,520 so 325 00:36:44,520 --> 00:37:00,200 yeah and you mentioned before about um your watercolors that you're making your ochre 326 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:05,480 watercolors that would be fascinating too like finding out what color what things make what color 327 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:16,600 and that sort of thing yeah and just I guess um like the fascination in how it was made traditionally 328 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,320 so you know like I go to a school and I'll say to the kids you know what what can you tell me about 329 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,640 aboriginal art and they'll say you know oh they made paint from rocks and I'm like yeah yeah 330 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,960 that happened you know so do you know how that happened like oh you know yeah they ground it 331 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:35,880 up and they add a bit of water and the second that you tell them that like it needs a binding agent 332 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,280 you know like it needs to stick together and you and you tell them that you know like traditionally 333 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:46,520 we might have used um animal blood or tree sap you know the eyes got bigger sources and you know 334 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:54,040 oh how does that happen and you know so just even in exploring like the traditional processes in my 335 00:37:54,040 --> 00:38:01,320 learning I'm able to then share that with um the kids as well and I went to the Northern Territory 336 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:07,960 last year and just was completely fascinated by the rock art and just to know that like that's been 337 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:16,440 there for 600 years and that paint that ochre has lasted you know 600 years in a cave yeah and yet 338 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,360 you know we can go and paint a house and within five years it's faded so yeah it's pretty amazing 339 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:28,520 isn't it it's pretty amazing that those just those basic you know elements of nature and you're able 340 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:35,080 to create something that lasts you know well beyond our own years and then you've yeah it's amazing 341 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:40,280 and I think you know growing up being that collector I've always like yep oh there's a red 342 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:45,720 rock or there's a you know that one's white or you know I've always I actually have a collection 343 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:54,360 of rocks um probably a bit odd for a 44 I could relate to that too yeah and when you grow up in 344 00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:00,760 a mining town it's kind of you kind of just yeah it's another it's just a thing yeah it would just 345 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:06,360 be part of your of your daily life like just finding interesting rocks it would just you know 346 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:15,960 it'd be great yeah I know it's yeah it's weird I quite often laugh that I like just 347 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:23,080 innately am like a gatherer and a collector and I think about my ancestors and the women who went 348 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:31,320 before me and that was kind of their role as well and it's comforting I guess to know that 349 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,920 like I'm still doing that and that's going to be passed on in my family as well that yeah just that 350 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:43,720 value in nature. Absolutely I love that um I've got a thing like that like with your rocks mine's 351 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:50,200 feathers I'm obsessed with feathers and I just oh my oh I just I don't know what it is about and 352 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:56,920 whether it's I don't know I like I love birds I think birds are just the most amazing things and 353 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:02,040 I have my little favorites that come around to the house and whatever and have a chat with the mag 354 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,920 pots and things and so I just I don't know it's like you've got this there's this they're so 355 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,560 unattainable because they can just go you know then they can go wherever they like and they're 356 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:16,840 free and to just have a little piece of that is I don't know maybe that's why I like I can hold it 357 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,080 close to me I don't know it's a funny thing. I know it's a treasure it's a treasure because it's 358 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:27,160 a moment in time that's just just that moment I suppose. Yeah yeah and you can't replicate it 359 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:35,960 you know as much as I try. And it's interesting like why um you know different different mobs and 360 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:43,800 stuff have different um totems and mine is a Willy Wagtail. Ah that's so interesting because 361 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:49,640 I've had a Willy Wagtail never before in the last three or four days has been at my front door with 362 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,920 his beautiful little whistle and I'm like what are you here for like it's still very interesting. 363 00:40:54,920 --> 00:41:01,800 My family have explained to me that they're messenger birds um so like black and white I 364 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:07,080 guess you know good messages bad messages when you when you're a Willy Wagtail you don't have a choice 365 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:13,000 to have to share the message whether it's good or bad that's that's kind of your your burden or your 366 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:20,840 your role I guess so um yeah just fascinated I love birds as well just fascinated by I guess again 367 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:28,760 that's another just a deeper learning that that I've been lucky enough to um have had shared with 368 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:34,840 me and yeah. Yeah just on birds just slightly off topic though do you get um carawongs over where 369 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:43,720 you are? No we don't we have the most amazing um superb fairy wrens you know the little good ones. 370 00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:49,880 Yes yes they're divine but it sucks out only the boys get to be beautiful don't they and the little 371 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:55,000 girls. Oh I'm just saying with peacocks it's funny oh yes that's so true. I take peacock feathers um 372 00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,360 in my little nature collage kit and I always say to the kids you know so these beautiful ones are 373 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,640 they the boy ones or the girl ones and the boy and the boys like oh no yeah they're the boy ones 374 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:11,720 because they use them to attract the girl ones like yeah they do like you know they show off for 375 00:42:11,720 --> 00:42:17,720 the ladies and they just get hilarious. Yeah I always find that interesting in nature that the 376 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:23,160 boys get to be so bright and exuberant and then the girls are brown it's like hang on a sec. 377 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:30,280 I know we're too busy right we're too busy oh I don't know what it is I have to show you 378 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:40,040 while we're chatting and you know yeah um my auntie sent me these um oh they're magnificent. 379 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:46,840 Yeah are they oh treasures like they are beautiful so yeah I'll share with the listeners 380 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:52,040 they're um they're well they're red black what are they called black red black oh you say it. 381 00:42:52,040 --> 00:43:03,160 Yeah the the cockatoos you know the red tail black cockatoos yes the black ones yes oh they 382 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:10,040 are the most amazing birds but they are divine so yeah I'm like oh my god they're a treasure but 383 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:15,160 like I want to use them but then like they're too precious you don't want to use them yeah I know 384 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,040 what you mean yeah I've got one like that but it's the yellow one um we get the yellow tail ones 385 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:25,560 they fly yes between because we've got a lot of pine you know pine plantations here and they fly 386 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,640 between the plantations and every afternoon they come right over the top of my house and there's 387 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:35,080 only about four sometimes five and they just call to each other as they're going I'm like oh there 388 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:42,280 they go again it's just so special. And every crazy bird people oh I'm sure there's someone 389 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:49,160 else listening that gets this isn't there there's got to be. Well I don't know I'll own it anyway 390 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:57,320 I have no shame. I don't apologize for it I love it and I tell the kids about it at work and last 391 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:03,480 year there was one little girl who just loved cockatoos and I told her that my mum has a pet 392 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:10,440 cocky and she ended up just becoming so attached to this bird like I'd bring in photos and videos 393 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:15,720 of this bird and I said to mum do you think we could bring her in for a visit and mum's like oh 394 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:21,480 I don't think so Alison because she can be quite moody you know she's got a bit of a bite on her 395 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:28,040 yes so we decided against that but even yeah this year even though that little girl's going to school 396 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:33,720 one of her little friends often asks me how's cocky going it's like it's just so lovely that 397 00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:38,440 they remember this and because she's got such a personality and in some of the videos she'd just 398 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:46,280 do the funniest things and so oh my gosh she's just a cracker she just loves life like that bit 399 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,520 yes that's what I was about to say I think that's why I like them so much because they 400 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,960 they do have distinct personalities and they're just they're they're just like people like 401 00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,480 they know what they like and what they don't like and what people they like and what people they 402 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:08,760 don't like I love emus as well I think you know growing up I was always like oh they're so 403 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:15,880 beautiful and and then you go to tower hill here which is um just outside of warnable and you know 404 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,680 they're so used to people they sort of come right up to you and you think oh god they're gonna like 405 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,600 for that second that little bit of fear creeps in and you're like okay I'll just put my hand 406 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:33,240 out so that I'm taller than them and that'll scare them away and and then at the same time I'm like 407 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:39,720 following them hoping that they might like drop a feather or something I did that recently actually 408 00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:45,880 it's my son my eldest son Alex he loves emus he's just got this thing for emus wherever we go if he 409 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:50,920 sees one he'll just go over to it and just like like obviously this isn't in the wild because 410 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:57,400 they run away from us um but yeah like where were we we're on the gold coast recently at the uh 411 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:04,200 carowar no what was it called um carumbin burn sanctuary and there was this emu up there and I 412 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:09,560 was patting him and I was hoping that one of his beautiful feathers would just fall out conveniently 413 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:13,880 accidentally you know I kind of got a hold one I thought no Alison don't do it 414 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:20,760 it's like my son's up up at his face and like distracting or like trying to nick 415 00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:25,640 feathers no that wouldn't have been very kind so no I didn't do that but I did cross my mind 416 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:33,640 oh my gosh I'm a forager I'd be too scared I don't take yeah I only take what's what's already 417 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:40,600 dropped on the grip yes yes yes no that that's very funny um yeah thanks for indulging my bird 418 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:46,840 talk there oh that's okay that's fine I've actually like I've been painting emu feathers like just 419 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:56,200 so inspired by them um just the little detail and how fine and soft they are and yeah they're pretty 420 00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:01,960 amazing like I don't know if people might have to google them but they are incredibly small like 421 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,920 when like you see this bird but then the like when you take it like they're like ostrich feathers 422 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,160 kind of where they've got like all the strings but then on the strands they're just so minute 423 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,880 I know incredible aren't they yep they make them go blind painting them like 424 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:25,080 could have picked a simpler feather so and then you know they're okay emu feathers and then dragon 425 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:37,960 fly so yeah yeah yeah all those tiny little veins detail it's all about the detail oh goodness 426 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:03,560 did you find that after you became a mum that your painting changed like whether the way you 427 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:12,440 had to do the work or what inspired you changed after you became a mum well that's a good question 428 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:22,840 um I think I don't know my poor kids whenever I do something they're just it's just around them 429 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:31,160 like they're just yeah so at the moment like we're in a small townhouse and I've literally got you 430 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:36,760 know seven or eight canvases on the go around me so yeah they've always been surrounded by whatever 431 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,760 um whatever I'm creating so you know whether it's sewing you know when they were 432 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,120 younger and I was screen printing you know we'd like we would have fun doing it together like 433 00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:54,920 I feel like that they've always been um involved in some way like and I've 434 00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,280 I've really tried to nurture that in them you know and I guess they're a bit older now and it's not 435 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:07,400 really their their thing but that was a really strong connection for us to have like when they 436 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:15,320 were younger that we did these things together and they were a part of yeah whatever whatever I was 437 00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,920 doing and even now you know like I'm making the ochre and stuff and Fraser who's 12 you know he'll 438 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:28,280 come over and like so what what are you doing you know um yeah I think I just I don't know I think 439 00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:34,680 again it's that I just have the I just want to share what I'm doing with them like and so then 440 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:42,760 yeah they they are a part of it as well um and it's hard when you work from home to separate 441 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:49,080 those two things as well um and I've been lucky that I have been able to spend a lot of time in 442 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:56,520 my arts practice working at home so yeah um yeah I don't know it's I think it's an inclusive 443 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:03,320 sort of style I guess that I've wanted to include them as much as I can in whatever I'm doing 444 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:10,760 yeah and teach them as well I mean you know they've they both can sew and they probably could 445 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:17,480 whip up a screen print if you reminded them how to do it but you know that's not cool now but you 446 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:24,440 know yeah I know what you mean so they'll be able to darn their socks get hold of them 447 00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:30,680 when after a lot of maybe I don't know I don't know some things might have gone in one ear and 448 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:44,440 out the other but anyway skills for life right yeah that's it yeah 449 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:07,640 So within that it was there an element of also wanting them to see that their mum can also do 450 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:13,000 things that don't involve being their mum so you can do things just for yourself? 451 00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:19,160 Oh I think we've I think my husband and I have raised our kids to 452 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,640 want to explore things like whatever it is you know whatever their passions are yep go and have 453 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:32,200 a crack you know like if you want to try karate go and go and try it like have your own identity as 454 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:38,680 well like you you know home and your family will always be your safe space but don't be scared to 455 00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:45,000 go out and try other things and I and I think that probably sort of was amplified after Asher died 456 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:53,640 like Loki was three and a half when that happened you know so I guess for that that couple of years 457 00:51:53,640 --> 00:52:04,600 after that I guess like sewing became my grief work that was what I sort of used to help me through 458 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:14,760 that time and so it's always been my sort of safe place to come back to and I think my kids just see 459 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:21,080 that as my creativity is just part of my identity and you know they're kind of they're not really 460 00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:30,040 separated yeah but I guess yeah it just comes back to like have a go at something if you want to 461 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,960 if you want to try it have a go like you don't have anything to lose 462 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,960 yeah it's great advice isn't it like you said life's short and you just if you want to do 463 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:46,840 something just make find a way to do it yeah I mean look I you know I probably in hindsight 464 00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:51,960 there's probably a few things I maybe should have pondered a little bit more like um you know when 465 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,160 I had my shop in Broken Hill I started it with like 70 bucks and I was like oh yeah I'll just 466 00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:03,640 have a shop and you know you know rounded up a few bits of furniture and had a friend make me a bench 467 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:09,720 and away we went we sort of you know just yeah you don't have to have the best of everything but you 468 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:16,520 you can still try things it's it's not necessarily about you know going out and buying all of the 469 00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:22,600 stuff for whatever it is it's just having a little taste of everything and and sort of really finding 470 00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:30,520 what makes you feel content yeah yeah and you can always build on things as you go you don't 471 00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:36,680 always have to have it all ready to go right at the start yeah yeah and I think also as well just that 472 00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:44,920 um that creativity is so good for like self-regulation not just for adults but 473 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:52,760 for kids as well and I think um you know maybe COVID highlighted that for all of us like we 474 00:53:52,760 --> 00:54:01,000 we did have that time to slow down and and stop and go slow and take things in um 475 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:08,040 yeah I don't know yeah just something I'm throwing out no but that's the thing isn't it when you've 476 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:13,240 got time you can actually think about what you enjoy doing and what sort of like you said fills 477 00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:19,400 you up and makes you feel good and yeah having I think in life we don't get those times unless we 478 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:25,480 truly seek them out yeah it's like life just goes and goes and goes and goes um yeah so I think 479 00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:30,200 yeah it's so important to have something that's yours I really think especially as a mum and even 480 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:36,200 in a partnership you know having something that that you know you don't always have to do everything 481 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,960 with your partner you don't have to share every single interest you can have things that you want 482 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:47,640 to do that don't involve anyone else uh my husband's just um started a punk band that oh good for him 483 00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:53,960 so like he's just you know that's his thing he goes off and does that um I think our kids 484 00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,640 I don't know they they always say to us you know how proud they are that you know like dad's 485 00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,360 dad's got the guts to get up and sing in front of other people whereas I there's no way I 486 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:11,960 could do that um but you know being in situations I guess with my um arts practice and 487 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:18,120 you know like collabs and different things where it's been quite public my kids are really proud 488 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:24,840 of that that I've like put myself out there um and even you know when you do those things sometimes 489 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:31,400 like they can be quite challenging as well so I think modeling how you handle that's really 490 00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:38,680 important as well for your kids you know I think they're always like you know sunshine and lollipops 491 00:55:38,680 --> 00:55:44,520 and you've got to learn to navigate the hard things as well yes that that's it isn't it if 492 00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:49,160 they're not just seeing the outcome if it's all positive that's great but they're actually seeing 493 00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:54,360 the process and you know working through things like you said if things aren't quite going how 494 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:59,080 you expect how you deal with that and that's that's so important because as we know kids 495 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:04,440 they learn from what they see you're not necessarily what you tell them so very true 496 00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:27,400 a 497 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:37,480 One of the things I like to talk to all my guests about is this concept of mum guilt 498 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:42,680 and I put that in air quotes because it's such a contrived term, like it's a term that's 499 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:54,120 been made up, I think, by Western society. Do you have any thoughts on mum guilt? 500 00:56:54,120 --> 00:57:05,440 It's almost palpable at times for me, just that, I don't know, I guess in the last couple 501 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:11,760 of years I've really like travelled a lot for work and I've been away and last year 502 00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,480 I was away a lot while Lockie was doing Year 12 and I sort of thought, oh I really need 503 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:24,320 to be at home more. But then I was really proud of him because he was able to achieve 504 00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:29,800 great things even when I wasn't there, I mean, I wasn't physically here, I was obviously 505 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:36,240 like calling and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, I do find it really tricky to have that 506 00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:44,400 balance where you're giving everyone enough of yourself and then still filling your own 507 00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:51,840 cup up. So yeah, I do feel like I get pulled in a lot of different directions quite often 508 00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:58,240 and I know my kids are proud of me for going out there and doing things but then I guess 509 00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:03,440 it's something that I put on myself, that I have that, oh I should be at home. But then 510 00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:10,320 I don't, I've never had that traditional sense that I need to be a homemaker either, that's 511 00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:20,360 not part of my life that I've sort of, I don't know, wanted to explore. Like I love being 512 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:25,820 at home and I am a real homebody when I'm at home but I also love getting out and like 513 00:58:25,820 --> 00:58:32,320 experiencing new things. But even when I've been able to do that, I guess like last year 514 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,160 I said I went to the Northern Territory, I would have loved for my kids to have been 515 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:44,240 there and so yeah, I don't know, it's a tricky thing. I don't know if it's something that 516 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:50,680 I like let anyone else sort of put on me but I certainly feel a bit torn at times, you 517 00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:55,360 know, am I spending too much time away or am I home enough or yeah. 518 00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:00,920 Yeah, that is something that someone said the other day, those exact words, it's not 519 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:07,280 something anyone else is putting on me, that's me saying this stuff. And it's like then it 520 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,400 makes it tricky then because it's like it's up to you to try and not think that stuff, 521 00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,920 you know, it's challenging. 522 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:22,160 It really is but you know, we're lucky now in that you know, like our kids have phones, 523 00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:28,200 you know, you can always just give them a ring, your FaceTime or whatever and you know, 524 00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:35,160 you can maintain that connection I suppose that maybe you couldn't have a few years ago. 525 00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:36,680 Yeah, that's so true. 526 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:44,920 It's easier to stay in touch and I think I made a very conscious decision like this year 527 00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:49,080 to wherever I can involve my family a bit more in, you know, if I'm travelling into 528 00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,200 Melbourne or whatever and if I'm in there for a couple of weeks like the boys come in 529 00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:59,600 and we go to the footy or something so you know, it's that balance of doing things together. 530 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:07,000 Yeah, that's it isn't it? Because it's like, I guess you probably, fair to say like it's 531 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:12,160 you couldn't give up that part of your life because then the rest of your life would suffer. 532 01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:16,240 You know, you couldn't give up your artistic endeavours because then you wouldn't be the 533 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:17,240 person that you are. 534 01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:25,280 I'd be miserable. When we first moved here, you know, everything was in storage because 535 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:29,280 we were waiting like we had a little unit and then we were waiting to move into our 536 01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:34,200 house and everything was in storage and I reckon it was about almost a year later and 537 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:40,960 I got my sewing machine out and I just had that huge like reminder of, oh, I have missed 538 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,200 this so much, you know? 539 01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:51,600 And I felt like my old self again. Yeah, like, yeah, it's weird that just doing that thing 540 01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:56,880 that's always been there and that creativity just made me feel like me again. I felt like 541 01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:57,880 I'd been missing. 542 01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:03,680 Yeah, yeah, absolutely can relate to that. Yeah. I think that's a pretty common thing 543 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:09,760 that people I chat to, it's like it's just an integral part of who they are. 544 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:14,200 Yeah, you can't separate. I don't think you can separate it when you're a creative. I 545 01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,720 don't think there is that separation. 546 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:22,840 Yeah, which makes mothering all the more difficult. You know, it's like you've got half your brains 547 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:27,560 in mum mode and half your brains in art mode and they cross over and then, you know, one 548 01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:29,560 takes over and the other one takes over. 549 01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:33,920 Yeah, and that takes over your whole house as well when you have no room and you're painting 550 01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,400 on the kitchen floor and I can't remember the last time we actually sat around our kitchen 551 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:43,240 table. Yeah, we ate a meal together because like it's covered, like it's literally covered 552 01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:49,040 in paint brushes and paint and yeah, I've got canvases all over the place and, you know, 553 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:53,920 they just walk around stuff now. It's not even like, are you going to clean this stuff 554 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:58,800 up mum? It's just like, oh yeah, we'll just step over the canvas and moving right along. 555 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:00,800 Yeah, that's it. 556 01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,200 But it's not like, you know, when Fraser gets home from school, I usually like stop 557 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:12,920 for an hour or so just to, you know, wind down with him and yeah, like Lachie's studying 558 01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:18,760 from home. So, you know, when he comes up and has lunch and stuff, you know, just yeah, 559 01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:23,560 being at home and touching it, touching base and you know, checking in on how he's going 560 01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:29,800 and stuff. So yeah, it's, I'm very lucky to work from home. Yeah, I feel very lucky to 561 01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:30,800 have that experience. 562 01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:36,040 Yeah, yeah. No, that is nice, isn't it? It does make it tricky that I've talked to people 563 01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:40,240 who work from home. It's like they're in the middle of painting and they might hear the 564 01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:44,680 dishwasher stop or the beef of the washing machine. They're like, oh, I better just do 565 01:02:44,680 --> 01:02:48,040 that. And then it turns into, oh, I better just do this and better just do this. And 566 01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:53,160 then it just rolls on me like, oh, that's right. I was meant to be doing my painting. 567 01:02:53,160 --> 01:03:00,320 What's the opposite in my house? I start painting, I become obsessed and then it's like, oh, 568 01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:04,960 we're out of clean undies guys. Hang on, I'll have to quickly do a couple of loads of washing 569 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:14,440 and you know, like, oh, just that tidying, you know, like I get so, I'm just so into 570 01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:18,920 like my artwork. What you're doing. Yeah. And I'm, you know, I'm so lucky my husband 571 01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:23,840 does the cooking and so, you know, I don't, I kind of don't have to stop. So I guess the 572 01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:31,800 tricky thing in that really is that it's hard for me to know when to clock off and actually 573 01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:37,720 just tools down for the day and separate work from, you know, just chilling out at home. 574 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:42,320 Yeah. Just sitting here, it'll be like, oh, well, I'll just do another coat on that or, 575 01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:47,320 you know, add a little bit here and then, yeah. And it's, oh, it's time to go to bed. 576 01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:54,320 Oh, sorry. I haven't actually talked to my family tonight. Sorry guys. Oh dear. So is 577 01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:58,240 that pretty common that you'll have like so many different ones on the go at once? Is 578 01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:04,120 that sort of how you like to work? Yeah, I think that's just how my brain works. And 579 01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:14,080 also like there's so many layers to Aboriginal art. So, you know, I might have a base coat 580 01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:19,920 on this one happening and then be blocking in things on the next one. And, you know, 581 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:27,000 then you've got to wait for the things to dry in between. And like, I might have, you 582 01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:32,680 know, works happening for a show and then a commission piece as well. And then I'm like, 583 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:38,000 like I said, I'm trying out different ochre. So I'm like, I just, yeah. And then I'll have 584 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,760 a little play, like a little like reward, I suppose, you know, like I've worked really 585 01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:46,760 hard on this one and now I just want to have a play. And I think that's really important 586 01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:53,760 to give myself that time to just like mess around and not, because when it's your full 587 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,960 time job, I don't ever want it to feel like a job. And I'm lucky that it doesn't because 588 01:04:58,960 --> 01:05:05,360 I absolutely like, I'm just so lucky to be doing what I do every day. But then I, yeah, 589 01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:10,800 I don't want it to get stale. So yeah, yeah. It's important to have those times we almost 590 01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:15,240 like that curiosity of, well, what happens, what happens, you know, messing around, like 591 01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:20,760 you said, about all the different things you like to do. It's like, that keeps you fresh. 592 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:26,520 That keeps you going. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And just like talking to other, talking 593 01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:32,860 to people, you know, when I go and do a weaving workshop or something, like just that connection 594 01:05:32,860 --> 01:05:36,520 that you have with other people and hearing about their life experiences as well. I think 595 01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:44,160 that's like, that's amazing that I get to do that. And I, yeah, I just feel really grateful 596 01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:52,960 that people are willing to share their experiences as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's that, I guess that 597 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:58,680 connection. Like I've grown up in a massive family and like my mum has six sisters and 598 01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:02,720 a brother, you know, so there was heaps of aunties and uncles, heaps of cousins, and 599 01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,600 you had to sort of be loud to be heard. So it's nice when you go and work in a small 600 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:12,720 group and everyone sort of, you know, gets their little moment to share and... Yeah. 601 01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:17,480 You're not competing with the airtime. I'm very, I can be very loud. I'm very aware 602 01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:22,320 that I can be very loud. So, all right. Just need to tone it down a little bit. Well, that's 603 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:52,240 funny. Yes. So you mentioned some things you're working on. Do you have anything 604 01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:57,840 specific coming up that you're working towards? Like anything you want to mention that's coming 605 01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:02,960 up in the near future? I have a few projects on the go, but I can't, I'm not allowed to 606 01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:12,480 talk about them. Yeah. And they're like, they're amazing things, amazing opportunities. And 607 01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:20,840 I just pinch myself, you know, I'm this chick from the bush, like just, it blows my mind 608 01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:30,080 often that I, I'm in the situation that I'm in. And so, you know, to be like working with 609 01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:36,280 companies like Maya, you know, like to have my work in their shops, like nationally, like 610 01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:45,240 that's just pinch me stuff. And like that just, yeah, it still just blows my mind. And 611 01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:51,280 working with, you know, like the South Side Flyers, the women's basketball team, you know, 612 01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:57,680 I was so grateful to go and spend a week with them in Tassie last year for the indigenous 613 01:07:57,680 --> 01:08:03,920 round, you know, design their Jersey and had such a strong connection with them. And just 614 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:11,040 spending that time, it's like, like, I never would have dreamed of this when I was a kid, 615 01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:23,240 but I could be, yeah, living this amazing life and meeting really interesting people. 616 01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:30,280 And I guess connecting with other women who are doing the same sort of thing, and then 617 01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:35,160 just the experience of the flyers, like these are young female professional athletes and 618 01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:42,400 learning that, you know, the disparity in their pay rate, what the men earn and, you 619 01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:48,680 know, I'm not a raving feminist, but, you know, just little things like that, I guess 620 01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:53,720 it's an eye opener and you don't pay much attention to it until you get to see it up 621 01:08:53,720 --> 01:09:00,520 close and personal, like how hard they work and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I love, 622 01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:09,080 I love that there's an element of like, being able to support other women in what I do and 623 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:17,000 being a role model for young girls as well to just to have a go at things and don't let 624 01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:25,460 your own self like hold you back because we do that all the time. And I think that's something 625 01:09:25,460 --> 01:09:32,520 that has frustrated me about myself for a lot of years, like my own insecurities, I 626 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:38,720 don't think I can do that. So yeah, I think just, but you know, that comes with age, doesn't 627 01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:39,720 it? 628 01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,720 Oh, absolutely. Oh, yeah. 629 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,960 Eventually get to that stage where you're like, no, I'm just going to do what I want 630 01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:45,960 to do. 631 01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,920 Yeah, I feel like in your 40s, you literally don't give a toss. You're just going to do 632 01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,260 what you want. You don't care what people think anymore. You know, you've gone through 633 01:09:54,260 --> 01:10:00,240 those years of worrying what, what people's judgment is going to be like, nah, I'm just 634 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:01,240 going to do stuff. 635 01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:08,600 Yeah, for sure. Yep, absolutely. That's yeah. I don't know. So I guess in terms of projects 636 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:16,320 coming up, yeah, I've got lots of schoolwork that I'm really excited about. I've got a 637 01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:24,440 trip to the Northern Territory for early childhood education, which like that's amazing just 638 01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:30,600 to connect with other educators and hear, hear about different things that they're doing. 639 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:39,200 I've been quietly working away, I guess at some early childhood resources as well. Like 640 01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:44,800 your inner service, things that I would want to use. And I'm like, oh, they don't, it's 641 01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:50,160 not here. So, you know, how can I create something that will fill that space? 642 01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:51,160 That's exciting. 643 01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:55,360 Yeah. The other stuff I can't really talk about. 644 01:10:55,360 --> 01:11:01,280 That's all right. Damn it. We understand. You just have to keep an eye on your, on Instagram 645 01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:02,720 or Facebook. Where are you most active? 646 01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:06,560 Yeah, I'm on all of those things. On the socials. 647 01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:13,440 Yeah, beautiful. I'll put links in the show notes of your, all your socials and things 648 01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:15,120 so people can find you. 649 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:20,320 But I have got my work in some galleries around the place, which is like, I'm really lucky 650 01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:24,600 to have their support and their sort of promotion as well. And then yeah, I sort of have my 651 01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:29,000 print work and all that sort of stuff through my website. But I guess the big thing at the 652 01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:37,440 moment is yeah, launching my fabric. So I was, that's a childhood dream and that sort 653 01:11:37,440 --> 01:11:38,440 of happening and 654 01:11:38,440 --> 01:11:40,440 Yeah, that's fantastic. 655 01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:50,920 Wow, there's a lot to learn. And being, you know, very environmentally conscious and, 656 01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:54,920 you know, wanting to know the supply chain and all of that sort of stuff. So that's been 657 01:11:54,920 --> 01:12:03,080 a very steep learning curve. Just, yeah, huge loads of information that you have to try 658 01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:08,640 and absorb and then work out which direction you want to go in. But gee, it's like, it's 659 01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:13,480 a, it's a whole feeling when you wear something that you have designed yourself like that's 660 01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:14,480 just 661 01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:17,000 Yeah, that'd be, that'd just about top it off, wouldn't it? That'd just be the best. 662 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:21,680 And I think, you know, having that, like watching my nan sew with all those beautiful fabrics 663 01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:25,600 all those years ago is just kind of stuck with me that like that's something I always 664 01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:30,800 wanted to do. And now I've realised that it's like, wow, that's actually happening. 665 01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:36,560 Oh, congratulations. That is exciting. So that people can see that through your website 666 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:37,560 as well. That's all 667 01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:38,560 Yeah, yeah. 668 01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:43,360 And they're beautiful. That's awesome. No, thank you. It's been lovely to chat with you. 669 01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:44,360 Thanks for coming on. 670 01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:50,400 Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love your work. 671 01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:55,480 Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving 672 01:12:55,480 --> 01:13:01,000 us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend 673 01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:07,120 you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, 674 01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:11,680 please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next 675 01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:40,240 week for another chat with an artistic mom. 676 01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:33,840 I don't know what's on the weekend, even though wanting a rebrand, kicking it up on the rampage. 677 01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:54,660 And the 678 01:14:54,660 --> 01:14:58,660 Collect all this gold energy 679 01:14:59,660 --> 01:15:05,660 Boil my energy, as I press the gold energy 680 01:15:05,660 --> 01:15:09,660 Collect all this gold energy 681 01:15:09,660 --> 01:15:13,660 Collect all this gold energy 682 01:15:13,660 --> 01:15:28,660 Collect all this gold energy 683 01:15:28,660 --> 01:15:43,660 Collect all this gold energy

Claire Tonti Australian musician and podcaster S4Ep97 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I am pleased to welcome Claire Tonti to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne VIC and a mum to 2 children. Claire was right into music in her early 20s, and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album Matrescence which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long covid and being at her lowest point mentally and physically . Matrescence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through post partum and a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing. Claire hosts 2 podcasts, currently Tonts and Suggestible with her husband, and she has previously hosted Just Make The Thing , She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, podcaster and youtuber. Claire is an ambassador for C.O.P.E. and The Giget Foundation and is so passionate about supporting mothers, You can tell Claire is a podcaster/interviewer, as she somehow turns the tables on me during this episode and at times it is hard to tell who is interviewing who! This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode. Matrescence is the physical, emotional, hormonal and social transition to becoming a mother. This episode contains mentions of post natal depression and anxiety, pre natal anxiety, birth trauma, post natal depletion, Claire - website / instagram / music Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Claire, tracks from her recent album Matrescence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music plate, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast the art of being a mum we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone dig people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast. It's great to have you here from wherever you're listening, whether it be Australia, United States or in Ireland. This week, I'm pleased to welcome Claire tante to the show. Claire is a musician and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom to two children. Claire was right into music in early 20s and has come back to it later in life. She recently released her album called muttrah essence, which she began writing at the beginning of 2022. She returned to music after having long COVID And being at her lowest point mentally and physically. Her album muttrah essence was inspired by what she was feeling and going through postpartum. And a lot of the songs are inspired by people and women particularly who she had listened to speak over many years of podcast interviewing Claire hosts to podcast currently taunt and suggestible with her husband, and she's previously hosted just make the thing. She runs a podcast company with her husband who is a comedian, a podcast and a YouTuber. Claire is an ambassador for cope and the Gidget foundation and she is so passionate about supporting mothers. When you listen to this today, you can tell that Claire is a podcaster and an interviewer as she somehow manages to turn the tables on me during this episode. And at times, it's hard to tell who exactly is interviewing her. This is a really vulnerable and emotional episode with both Claire and myself sharing a lot of intimate details regarding our childbirth experience and postpartum. This episode contains mentions of postnatal depression, anxiety, prenatal anxiety, birth trauma, and postnatal depression. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Claire's music tracks taken from her brand new album called mitr essence, which is available on all of the streaming platforms now, we can head to the link in the bio to purchase them. Please take care of yourselves and enjoy the episode bye. It's been two knees hands yours and mine. beaten, beaten in time. Same rhythm, same kind cause the light brown things clickety clack in and trains long the music came to heart beat the same. Well thank you, Claire, thank you for coming on. Appreciate you being part of the podcast. It's a pleasure to welcome you today. Oh, thank you so much. It's such a joy to be here. I've been really looking forward to this. Oh, good. Excellent. I actually I have been looking forward to change you too. Because as a musician, I love talking to musicians. I love talking to everybody. But you know, it's always good to converse in something that you know. Yeah, you kind of get the weird and wild well don't you like being amused though, and all the different like personality stuff and egos and just like the magic of it too, you know, I guess right? It's really nice. And also to say someone who else is a mom and a musician today, I think to kill a hybrid. Yes, yes. It's its own whole new world really isn't it? Absolutely is exactly right. All right, Alison. Yeah. So yes, you're a musician. People know that now. But you're also, you're also a podcaster. And I think you do too to podcast. Is that right? I do. Yeah, we're not Well, like I think a lot of parents and mothers particularly would say, it's a total mess or time and a rolling feast. But it's also been so much fun, I sort of, I started, just make the thing with my first podcast, which is how to start a thing and keep on making it. And that was an experiment to kind of find my voice. And if I could make a thing, I wasn't doing music. At that point, I had two little kids and running a podcast company doing all the behind the scenes, because my partner's a podcaster, and a YouTuber. And so after I was a primary school teacher, and then went on maternity leave, I sort of started there, helping him to monetize his show, and then other local comedians around the tracks. And I had convinced myself that I wasn't a creative person, but that my role in life was to help other people to be creative. And that's what I loved about teaching and what I kind of built my world as. And for some reason, didn't think I deserved my own space for creativity. And music was certainly the biggest and scariest thing for me. And so I also convinced myself that it wasn't really something I could do, and I wasn't good enough at it. So I probably stopped did music in early 20s, and then came back to it. And so yeah, all that is to say, I started with just make this thing which was just this kind of little dipping my toe in the water. And then I started suggestible, which is a recommendation show with my husband, where we recommend things watch, read and listen to we argue every week, he brings his post apocalyptic style was like, like vibe. And I bring my books written by mainly women, and rom coms, and we kind of like discuss it, he actually, to be fair, he also brings a lot of content made by diverse voices. And he's got a really big depth of knowledge in that space. So it's actually been a beautiful show to do. A lot of people listen with their partners, which has been really beautiful as well and recommend recipes, and that kind of things, that sort of comedy, and recommendations. And then Tonsai began couple of years ago now. And that's my interview show where I look at emotions really. And I talk to people about their stories. I really am interested in women's stories and diverse voices, activists, writers, experts, and thinkers, and deeply feeling humans really. And that's been the biggest joy to create that show. I'm currently working on Season Four at the moment. And interestingly, as I've grown in this space, I've found that I'm now talking more and more about women's health and hormones, interviewing women about chronic stress and how to make it all work as mothers even I interviewed Jane Harper, and that was a thing we talked about for ages, which was how to deal with mother guilt, and the complex nature of all of that stuff. So even the people you think that have it all figured out? Definitely don't. That was a long winded way of saying yes. No, that's fabulous. I love that. So I can breathe easy. I want to making space from me, like where Paul's pie. But what you've done is breaking me down so far. I can't get up. Because you so call now. Just call taunt is obviously like a play on your username tante. Where is that surname from was what's the heritage of that? So yeah, my full surname is Tonti Filippini. But I just shortened it to 20. And then my friends call me Tom. It's been a nickname that's been around for a while. So that's why I use that. I love it. Yeah, my dad didn't tell you. Yeah, cool. And I love that, like what I'm finding through this podcast, it's just so awesome to talk to other people. Like just like I was saying before about, you know, the mother, the mother, musician, like there's all these different worlds. And, like, I'm discovering so much stuff that I never knew before and learning so many things aren't even new and seeing different perspectives. And I guess you'd experienced that too with talking to so many different people. Yeah, absolutely. I've learned so much. I think that now I've released this album called nitro essence, which I started writing at the beginning of last year. And I realized I came to music after long COVID And I was really at my lowest point and I've been speaking and talking to women for a really long time. And by that point, and listening to a lot of different voices and artists and writers and creatives, but not actually really stepping into my identity as an artist, but I think all of that listening and all of those conversations kind of came together for me at that time, and when I couldn't watch TV I couldn't, I was really so depleted after having my second baby during COVID. And also homeschooling and doing all the things that we all did during that time, particularly if you had kids that everyone had their own struggles, and, you know, as musicians and artists as well, it was a really, really challenging time for the industry overall. But yeah, when I got long COVID, and had postnatal depletion, and I really just could parent and rest, I couldn't work and then use it kind of came back into my life, there's a way to listen. And then I developed this cough and as a podcast or a coffee is not very good to have like real coffee feeds. And so I decided to go and get some singing lessons. And I was still telling myself it was just because I had this cough that I needed to figure out. And then very quickly after I started singing lessons with my teacher, Bianca fan, she saw my songwriting, and said, Did you know you're a songwriter? And what are you doing with them. But I do think so many of the songs that came from that place, I took them to her nephew, they heal, and he's a music producer. And initially, it was going to be two songs we'd record and very quickly, it exploded to be 11 songs about I didn't realize what my tresses was at that point. But it was really just about what I was feeling and going through. A lot of those songs are inspired by the people and the women, particularly who I've listened to fake overseas. And I think that's the beauty of podcasting, you get these kind of lovely microcosms of connection with people that you may never speak to otherwise, doing work that you really admire or that you're interested in, you learn so much. And then as an artist, and as a creative, you almost like absorb it or like a sponge, and it sits there somebody in the back of your brain, I always think I have like a spider that lives in the back of my brain collecting things. You know, just like a bow a bird. You don't have a lot of time to like, we wait for the right moon to come out in the sky to like write your beautiful sonnet or whatever. So it just sits there collecting things while I'm busy doing other stuff. And I think for me, it was like 15 years of busy doing other stuff. So when I finally let that spider out, sounds strange, but you know, it was suddenly like, excellent. Here's all these things and all the stuff that you've learned and heard about from other women and also your own journey. So yeah, yeah, podcasting, it's a magic space to be well, I can definitely relate to that. Like, I found that by hearing other people's perspective on their creativity, it allowed me to be a lot more free with mine and not have these, like I'm can be quite a perfectionist and have the standards that things have got to be a particular way, which is good in some respects with my music. But then in other, like my painting, I never thought I could paint or draw because it was it didn't look very good. So that was my thing, I won't do it, because I can't do it sort of thing. And then just, I mean, it sounds really obvious, but there's a lot of different kinds of painting, but because I've never really delved into it, or talk to anyone about it. It just was the one of these things I just didn't do. And just by talking to people and realizing that you can do whatever you want, like, oh, wow, this is great. And so now I enjoy that as part of like, it's almost like a bit of a self care sort of thing, where if I'm processing, you know, as situation or emotions, whatever i i will often just be drawn to the painting side of things. So it's become a really good tool for me, you know, to look after myself and my mental health. So yeah, like, I would never have tried that or done that if I hadn't talked to so many people about it. So that's been really good for me. Yeah. I think that it's so magical. And having that kind of tactile outlet that we've the paint in the color, we can just imagine that would be so soothing. Yeah, and I do really believe deeply that creativity in the arts is a big tool in the toolkit of healing. And I think and particularly matriculants, for those who don't know, is a word that describes the complex transition to motherhood that happens through adolescence, similarly to adolescence. So if we think of hormone to use identity crisis, body changes, social networks change, who we are as a person shifts, the people, the way people see us in the world shifts when we become an adolescent. It's the same in retracements. And I think there's a really powerful way that art and creativity can really help women and people who give birth to move through that transition. And I think in our culture, it's often underrated and undervalued. Yeah, absolutely. I thought it would be it was the last thing I tend to when actually, it was a thing that worked for me. And it's not as tight. You know, obviously, there was diet related changes and medication is also really amazing and going to see medical professionals but yeah, creativity cannot be underestimated for effective. Yeah. Are you watching? Video thing? Yeah, I don't know, more than rolling. Blame news. Five. DNA, me, and just on that, like, the Moto essence has become a word that's very common now, I suppose. And it's only been in the last few years, I think that it's really been something that people talk about and refer to in that way. And I can't feel like, you know, you're talking about the teenager is a similar sort of comparative time with all the changes, like, I feel like we give teenagers a break, like, we say, oh, you know, they're really struggling, because it's this time, you know, the hormones are changing, and we seem to give them a lot of, sort of give them a break. But when it comes to mums that are struggling, it's like, well, that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to have a baby, you know, like, it's, it's almost like suck it up, because that's your body. And like you're a woman, that's what you're supposed to do. So just do it. You know, do you feel like we said, that's not a feeling that is not a culture, it's the culture we live in. And it's not the culture that exists across the globe. I know, for example, in India and in China, and a lot of other traditions Bali have a lot of traditions like this to a woman when she gives birth, particularly for the first time is seen as a newborn, just like a newborn is, there's a phrase the newborn mother that I love, because really you are your child, like you don't know yet what you're doing yet, you don't know how to feed your baby yet you don't know what this new body is even going to look like or what it's going to mean, there's milk coming out your boobs, how did that even happen? And often, even in the lead up, that the word mature essence should be spoken about before women or people who give birth even embark on parenthood. It's so it's a really huge transition to make. And in our culture, we just push women out of the hospital after two days and say figure it out yourself. And you'll be right. And part of it is underfunding. But I also think it's a loss of village. And it's also a lot of and a devaluing of wisdom and knowledge that used to be passed down through generations. And so in those traditions, like there's a beautiful woman who works at our local bookstore, Mira and I went in there with my album, and we were talking and she said, yeah, when I was becoming a mother, my mother moved in with me for 40 days, I wasn't allowed to leave the bed, she brought all the food to me really warming foods cleaned, my house cooked, we had a whole lot of people coming in. All I had to do was feed my baby, and then and then they would put her down. And so she said during the pandemic, she prepared her bags to do that for her own daughter, and then couldn't go because of COVID, which and there's just so many micro mini stories of tragedy through COVID. And but one of the big overarching stories is that all the problems that were there inherent with the lack of care from others, a lack of honoring of their journey, the lack of knowledge around what they actually need, and let me tell you, it's not nurseries and Pinterest boards and special bugaboo prams, it's, it's psychology before they even get to start to become pregnant. It's really knowing themselves. It's understanding they can advocate themselves in the birth for themselves. In the birthing room, they can be in charge of their birth and not handed over to the doctors who technically know best in inverted commas. They know their body, and they know what they need, and should be empowered to know all of their options. So that when they get in there, if there's someone in that room who isn't being supportive of them, they can tell them to eff off. Yeah, yeah. And also then moving from there having postpartum planning. So that's where I hadn't even heard of the word doula when I had my kids. And then I think I thought the word doula was like a boozy thing that maybe Gwyneth Paltrow did in Hollywood. Like, why would you do that? When actually it's just a woman who understands the process of birth and can advocate for you if your partner doesn't know and often, your partner is a bloke and he is just as much in the dark as you are. So having someone there that can also then come and care for you afterwards if you don't have that village support. So all of that is to say that essence was coined in the 1970s by Donna Raphael. And she's an amazing anthropologist, and then brought back in kind of the early 2000s, by early Athan, and she was an academic based in Canada. And she brought that term back, but it's coming back again. And I think it's really because COVID highlighted just how ginormous, the problems are in a culture that doesn't care for mothers and honors them in the way they should be. And now, with this knowledge that I have, I totally get what I went through when I have my kids. And I just think so many women, when they hear that term go, Ah, okay, it wasn't just that I needed to suck it up. And I couldn't hack it. And, you know, I couldn't be that perfect mother and I was good. I thought I'd love it every minute. And I did in all conversely, I love it, but I'm different to who I was. And maybe my friendships look different, and my body looks different. And this understanding that I think he's powerful, I will say as well. And I wonder if you resonate with this that just like some people went through adolescence, and we're bloody great at it, like just knew what to wear. You had to go to I don't know, neither right parties to go to seem to have less glamorous photos of them, you know, just by party. Love. Yeah, really rocky adolescence, like, very awkward times, terrible outfits, incredibly nerdy. And I love that girl now so much, because I think she was so unique and weird and great and kooky and wrote a lot of poetry and just thought didn't know who she was in. Glorious. But I just think that's the same for women, like, go through retracements and love it, and some are gonna struggle on it's a huge spectrum. And then on the other end of it is a question I've been asking a lot I don't have an answer to and I'm not an expert. I'm just a mother and a musician with my stories. But what is a same reaction to a really difficult time in your life in contrast, and so what's a very difficult for tresses versus what is clinical diagnosis of postnatal depression or psychosis, and things that need medical intervention. And I think it's a really gray area. And something I've been speaking to professionals about now. And I'm interested to talk more about on my podcast because I think some of the rocky part of that early motherhood is just like, of course, you find these hard because it is bloody hard. But then there's also a line there, when is it appropriate? And medication and other options are very fast. So like Coca Cola in summer like soap is a pattern no matter what though, as your last flowers in bloom found the blue love if you don't become an ambassador for Coke, and also the Gidget foundation. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm really passionate about letting women and people out there know about their services. So cope has an amazing e directory where you can put in your postcode, and it will show you all of the services available in your area for whatever you need in that early parenthood, Merit Peri natal space. And lots of research. There's also a great app that you can download on your phone. So you can do screening for postnatal depression, privately, rather than having to go to a maternal health nurse necessarily. And there's wonderful maternal health nurses too, but can often be very confronting, and sometimes you feel a bit judged. And so doing that privately is great. So Koch is amazing. And the Gidget Foundation, have free counseling available online. So you can call a number and speak to someone immediately, as do Canada. And I would really encourage anyone listening to this to suspect they have a friend who's struggling a family member who's struggling, if they're struggling, it doesn't matter how long ago you had your baby, either. That or whatever you went through in the kind of perinatal mental health space, those surfaces and services are available. So anyway, I keep giving you very long winded answers. No, it's really good. Because you say you, you there's so many points you've raised, and I keep writing them down to come back to which is it's cool. But yeah, thank you for mentioning that. And that's really cool that you're you're an ambassador for them because I feel like I was actually talking to someone yesterday, and I can't even think who they were this is really bad when you talk to so many people. It all runs around in your head but it's same thing like I hacked back to my days of 15 years ago, prenatal class was basically teaching you how to watch a video of a natural birth. Just to freak you out a bit more and to scare all the dads. And basically the extent of you know, they taught you how to change a nappy, they gave you hints on settling, which were one of them was run your baby's pram over, like a lump on the floor, like, and I was like, Okay, now I realize how dumb that is. Sorry, not dumb, unhelpful. Some of it was. And the they got a guy to come and talk from Beyond Blue. And all I remember from him, was saying, I It's good going to be a bit rough. Yeah, so good luck with that. Like, I literally remember him saying, so good luck with that. And I just thought afterwards when, like, this is the culture of what you're giving mothers, this is what this is normal to give mothers and yeah, looking back on that I think my God, no one has struggled and just about lost it, you know. But the other thing you said, too, and I was actually thinking that the same thing when you were talking about it about the fine line, or the difference between just having a really crappy experience in that mattress since period? Or when does it get to that point of that, you know, needing medical intervention or whatever. And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, Wow, that sounds like my first experience. With my first son. I kept saying, like, my husband said to me, I reckon you've got that thing. They taught to be able to impregnate a class and like, No, I don't, I don't have postnatal depression, I'm just having a bad day, you know, and everything I could justify, I could say all night, just because I had a bad sleep all night. It's just because he didn't sit or, you know, I was telling myself these stories. And I even managed to slip through the cracks with the nurse that come round to and did like one of those cute hands or whatever. They are like the screener. You know, have you felt like this? Like, oh, I think it was like every day for the past two weeks. I was like, No, I haven't not for the past two weeks. But it's been a lot of days. But because I didn't meet those criteria. I was like, see, I have fun. So yeah, I didn't like that. There's still a lot to be said for that sort of intervention as well. But I wonder if that was it was just a really difficult period. And then because I had the next one there seven years between my kids for that reason of harrowing, not the greatest start, but I got really bad postnatal depression, and I was medicated and and almost hospitalized. But we didn't do that, because I wouldn't have been able to keep breastfeeding. So yeah, you sort of wonder if that first experience had have been a little more positive and more like sort of picked up by professionals or whatever that are maybe could have avoided the second one. I don't know. I'm so sorry, Alison. I mean, I had a really, it's so hard. Yeah. And do you know what I think too, I think we have to really kind to ourselves, because like with each baby, it's a new start of matriculants each time. Yeah. Which I don't think people say that you think I've had one? So the second one easy, I've done it like I'm warning, you know, right out. There's a difference between having no, it's not. And then the difference between having one and two is massive. And so and for each woman, it's really different, or each person I should say especially and I'm just so sorry, that happened to you, I think it's much more common than we think. And I know now, the rates are even higher from COVID. And I do think that this system is just failing women emotionally and spiritually, particularly, I think it's really undervalued just how important it is to really care from others. And that caring that needs to begin in the early part of your life really, before you even start to have kids and then through the transition in the hospital setting and then afterwards, and then the spaces that are okay to for you to actually be able to talk about how you feeling I agree. I I suspect I had postnatal but it went undiagnosed for that reason, because it was like, Are you feeling like this everyday? Well, no, not really. And also, you've asked me so many questions about my baby and he wasn't putting on weight and he had really bad reflux and I was advocating so much to him. I felt so scared that they would be like, well, she's a bad mother. She's not doing well. He's not putting on weight. And now she's like, What feeling like this and you just feel like you can't be honest. And even if you are honest, what support is there for you? Yeah, you know, is really, really super challenging. But I think the first step is talking to someone about it and having someone on the phone I think I didn't know at the time. That for me having someone to reach out to on the phone who's like a qualified counselor who can talk to you? And they're not, you know, without judgment where you can be honest and yeah, and all that stuff and just being real about the fact that Yeah, it's really hot. Yeah. Was like, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine having another child. Like, I just kept seeing myself in difficult situations. Like when I think about having a baby, it was all native. And that went on for, you know, almost seven years. Like it was just, I couldn't get past that. It was bizarre. Yeah. But now I've gotten two of them. And it's wonderful. Yeah. As I've gotten older, how old are they now? So 15 and nearly eight. So yeah, it's, I wouldn't recommend seven years age gap, if you're deliberately thinking of age gaps. They get on they get on well, at different times, depending on who's in charge, or who wants to do a particular thing. Because they are, you know, completely different places in their lives can be a little tricky. But I think the older that. Digby, my youngest, the older he gets, the easier it been for them to get on. Well, I think it's probably a fair thing to say. I'm ready to be given a find a flat by car. Taken. No one knows me here. That's what I was trying to say about who I was speaking to yesterday, that when were when we're thinking of becoming parents, and like you were saying, you think about what pram you're gonna get and what, you know, making your Pinterest board to make your nursery really beautiful. It's like, that should be like the last thing we do like that. It should be ingrained in our culture that you you search up, you have the support services in your phone, you know, you know, where you're gonna go, if you need help you have people who are going to make food for you all, you know, all this sort of stuff. It's, it's the after the birth stuff, when your home that you need the help with, it's the lady I spoke to yesterday, Mary, she said, she had this beautiful nursery in this beautiful car, and the baby never went in the car. She ended up giving it away. So yeah, I feel like I mean, I guess capitalism and commercialism drives that need for things to be new and pretty imperfect, and whatever, and this Instagram world where everything's got to look really good. But you know, getting back to the basics of actually caring for each other. And actually, I'm crapping on a fair bit now, but, but what I was what I noticed, when you were talking about the culture, I'm sorry, I can't remember what culture it was, but the lady you knew from your bookshop, and that basically, all she had to do is feed her baby nurse the baby, and then they'd even settle it and do everything else. And when I was in the worst throes of my postnatal depression, that was literally all I could do, I would feed him and give him back to my husband, and he would do everything else with him. So it was like, I was putting myself in that position without even you know, consciously realizing, I just needed so much help. And I was just, that was all I was capable of, and I couldn't even see myself leaving my bedroom. I had to be in my bed. You know, it was like this safe cocoon. So yeah, I was creating without even knowing I was creating that environment. Which is really, yeah. So interesting to hear. How did that change for you? But over the trajectory? Was there a point where you started to feel like I've got a handle on this, now I'm starting to heal. It took a while, like, we have, I mean, a regional town in my Gambia in South Australia. So we don't have a huge amount of services. But again, I didn't know they were there till I needed them. So it was this scramble, you know, when you need it, it's like, oh, my gosh, Googling things and whatever. But I was pleasantly surprised that we do actually have more services than I thought. So I had a a mental health nurse who would come over and just sit with us. And she wouldn't say anything. She was just there. And I got really familiar. My I think my husband, he found it a bit tricky, because he wasn't, you know, obviously he was in a different mental state than me. So he found it a bit weird that this lady was just sitting in our lounge room with us, but I really liked his, she was just there and she'd observe us and if I if I wanted to talk about things I could, and if I didn't want to, you know, she was just there and so I had her come on. For many weeks, and then one day, she said to me, I don't think I don't think you need me anymore. Because she said, she could just see the change in me physically, you know, from the first time she'd met me to, you know how I was interacting with the baby. And, you know, I was laughing a bit more, not just my demeanor had changed. And I was medicated pretty early on. So you know, you have that period of time, like, you know, three or four weeks for that to kick into your system. So that was a bit horrible. But yeah, if months, I guess my husband slept in the baby's room in a in a single bed, probably for about six months, I reckon, because I just couldn't bear the night times, they were the worst, because that was where all my triggers were when my previous baby was just being in the dark with a baby was just like, the worst thing I could imagine. So he took all that away from me. Yeah. And then one day said, Oh, do you reckon you reckon you might like to have a go or the way he said it? It was like a really kind way. It wasn't like, yeah, it was almost like a playful way. Like, do you think you might like to try and see how you go? I was like, God, not yet. No, not yet. It was sort of like no. But yeah, eventually. Yeah. So within the first year, I was back to relative normality. In my mental wellness, I think, what was it about the dark and babies that night? I think it was because I couldn't I had a lot of trouble settling him. And when I'd get him settled, he, he would wake up really easily. So it was like I felt trapped in there. I think it was like that. I'm in the dark. I'm by myself, like, no one else is helping me and I'm stuck here with this baby sort of thing. It was almost like a like I was Yeah. Yeah, like I was not abandoned. But I was the one that had to do it. And no one else was going to help me. sort of thing. Yeah. And yeah, it was horrible. And even in the daytime, he'd only sleep for 45 minutes. And, you know, to my detriment, I was reading this book that said, you know, you've got to get him to sleep for an hour and a half, blah, blah, blah. And so I'd be sitting in there in the dark, just patting and shushing, and patting his shushing, and this kid was ready to get up. But all the book told me I have to have to get him back to sleep. So in with my second child, are just like, I'm just going to do whatever the hell this kid wants, you know, like, he was just like, he's, he knows what he wants in his life, he wants to get up, he's gonna get up, just, you know, I just went in a completely different, completely different way. And I had a lot of time to think about it. So I had like, this list that I'd made, of all the things that I do differently. And I was actually just talking about this the other day to about and it wasn't necessarily practical things it was about myself, you know, like, don't be hard on yourself. It's doesn't matter if the house isn't clean. It's not a reflection on you how often the baby sleeps. And I was like, it doesn't matter if he has formula or if he's breastfed like it was all about taking the pressure off myself, basically. Because that's how I think I'd build up the first one, that it was all about me, I had to do everything I had to breastfeed him. You know, it was this real martyr sort of mentality, which wasn't very nice. Yeah. And do you know what the breastfeeding thing so I really struggled with breastfeeding. And I had been told by our hospital, like classes that you know, all women can breastfeed, some just can't have the pain. It's the only best way, blah, blah, blah, yeah, I remember writing it down. So I would play with such an a kind of a like, student, I was like making my little notes and being like, well, of course, I've run long distances, I know how to push through things, I'll be fine. And when it didn't work, no one said to me, formulas, fine. No one said, actually take the pressure off. A happy mom is much better for your baby than a mum that's struggling to breastfeed in an extraordinary amount of pain. And then, remember, the advice I got was, well, what you need to do is just keep on feeding. I remember calling like the breastfeeding hotline, and they'd be like, well, you're bleeding. You just keep feeding through that. And then you're not getting much milk. So what you need to do is feed the baby then you need to express and pomp and then you need to go and give them a top up a formula, because they're not putting on weight, then will weigh them all the time, like every day coming to the hospital. And because he vomited so much, he wasn't putting on weight anyway. But then I would be basically given advice, just not to sleep. But really, because by the time you do that, do it. You're not sleeping like what did that takes two hours, and then you're feeding them every two hours because they want you to increase their weight. And so I remember doing the same thing when I went to have my daughter and she's three my son's seven and she's three. I wrote myself a note because your hormones change so much. So you think you're going to be this rational person that you are before you have your baby. And during your pregnancy. You're pretty rational for me as soon as you have the baby It all kind of goes out the window. And remember, I'm reading my note to myself that said, you are doing this for two weeks. If it's not working, your formula is perfectly fine. And your baby will be perfectly fine. And I'm so glad I did that, because I did I just against their medical advice, because they like, I remember that this beautiful pediatrician was like, Well, yeah, you can actually stop. But like, don't tell anyone that I told you that you can stop breastfeeding. What total bullshit, like, everybody is unique. Everyone's baby's unique, you are unique. If someone had said that, to me that like just like some women are great at yoga, other women produce so much milk, they come back and feed a whole village. And you like I one of the women that probably in the village who's out organizing the fields, because you don't like sitting still. And so someone else would have fed your baby. Like, it's fine. Just like some women, it's just like all of us are unique. And even the relationship I didn't realize is that some babies have a different shape now to the nipple of the woman. And so there was just no way that they'd be able to feed because the baby has to come to the party just like you do, not to mention whatever you went through during your birth. And if you had a huge impact, and then also the way that you burst now I know can have an effect on your afterbirth and your motor presence because of the type of hormones and whether there was an interruption there, whether you had trauma from that, whether you were low in iron, all of that goes into milk production. And so there's just so it's so we're so mean, in a way the system feels me Yeah, yeah. And Jaggi. And yeah, like you're doing it wrong. Don't call me. And I'm actually interested in your perspective on this. This is not something that I have read in a study, it's just a gut feeling that I have full caveat. I'm a very creative person. I'm really great at a lot of things, talking music, writing, doing things that scare other people. Bloody Great. Admin, cleaning, turning off on time, total garbage. Fire on a calendar can't clean the fridge. Yeah, tell you the bloody I don't know, whatever day it is, I don't know, half the time. So like I have the skill set. But the other type of skill set for motherhood, I'm real shitter. And I think now excuse my language, I'm starting to progress. But now as I get all that, and my kids are getting older, I have the skill set that I think is really suited to that. But a lot of the baby stuff is like routine, and resting and staying still all the time, and not sleeping that much. And then like being at home in the same place doing the same thing every single day over and over again. And I wonder too, if you're a highly creative person who also needs that creativity to feel fill you up and feel like you and the excitement and adrenaline of new experiences. Motherhood rock can rob you of that. And I I wonder whether that's a piece of it to that as creatives and I think we're all designed to be creative, but highly sort of creative people with that scratching their head that needs to be etched because they constantly have to make stuff. Yeah, that I wonder whether that was a piece of it too. Huh. That's really interesting. I can totally resonate with what you're saying about cleaning. I seriously I just sometimes it's just not even on my radar. I don't even think about it. Because I'm just thinking of doing things. And I don't know. And then I think shivers, look at that carpet probably could do with a vacuum. But then do I go do it? Probably not straightaway. But you know what I mean? It's like your brain doesn't live in practical land, it lives in, I don't know, this different thing, which is finding their bodies. And also unique and special and great. And I think part of this struggle. I've written a song on my album called this mother thing which speaks into this fact the Lyric, will you go but also say will you grow but also never change? Tiny lungs, tiny beating hearts. This mother thing is full of scars. And it's kind of this idea that as a creative, I just constantly want to be left to my own devices to get weird and make it and get excited about the world. But then also I love my kids and I want them to be with me as well. And I'm constantly in this state of juggling of how do I make being a mother and a creative work. And actually I I think part of it is, we need if you are someone that has that creative urge all the time, and you're not great at cleaning, like, we actually have a cleaning, which I know is a real privilege, but also is the probably the thing that saves me parenting, because I just otherwise, it's just a disaster. And so I now see my cleaner as part of our company, as an employee, really, and I would keep for all go many things before I let them go. Really, life which is employed, which I know is a real privilege, and not everyone has access to that. But I but what I will say is having someone and speaking to Mira from my bookstore, in a village context, you would have so many other people around to do those kinds of chores and jobs for you that the light the load is lighter. And even I'm not surprised that having a mental health nurse come and sit with you was the thing that helped is really human beings are designed to be in community and with each other. And if you just had someone else with you during those night times, who can just say it's okay, you're doing a great job, and sit down and he's a cuppa, like, not even do anything just be around. I just think some people and I think most of us as humans, we just want connection we want community, which is what we were designed to have and modern lives in our particular Western Australian context, just a really detrimental for our heads and our hearts. And as mothers, you know, like I was speaking to a woman on PBS who was telling me in Ghana, where she grew up. Like she just didn't have any identity loss as a mother because everyone was she had like aunties, uncles, cousins, brothers, Little Kids, Big kids, people were around and everyone's breastfeeding together. And she'd seen women give birth around her for a long time. So it wasn't this like hidden experience. It's same with death. Death is hidden here. But it's not in other cultures. It's a part of everything. You know, like her grandparents were buried in her front garden. You know, it's like that kind of thing, which I'm not suggesting we do. But I guess what I mean is like our humanity, our ability to be present and alive in the world and understand what motherhood really means. It is, shouldn't be something that we wait to experience until we're eight and a half months pregnant. It should be like, we're breastfeeding with 10 other women, and you've seen it happen so much. And if it doesn't work for you, there's another woman there cannot who actually could feed your baby or can tell you, your nipples. We're not it's probably not going to happen to you. Let's get you some formula. You'll be fine. You know? Exactly. Yeah. Normalizing that experience. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you're talking about the breastfeeding before, that was something that my first child that I was just like, I have to do this. I remember sitting at the table, my kitchen table, and my mom was there. And I was just in tears, because I couldn't get this kid to attach properly. And I pushed through eventually things got better. And I fed him for a long time. But it was like I had this, this ridiculous, controlling thing that I had to do it. And my husband was like, Oh, do you want me to just go get some formula. I was like, No, don't get the formula. I'm doing it. Like it was just irrational, basically. So then, with my second one, one of my things was like, if it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't doesn't matter if he has formula, you know, 30 is best that was the thing I was telling myself not breast is best Fed is best doesn't matter how you baby gets fed. And just by a stroke of luck, I suppose not lucky for him. But when he was born, he was very, very small. And he was born by like, emergency severe. And so that's where sort of all all the started. So he was in one of those little humidity crib things, which I've been calling a hot box for a long time, but it actually has a name that I just referred to the baby in the Hotbox. So because he was in there, and he was away from me a bit. They just gave him formula. And I was like, this is fantastic. That's out of my hands. Now I haven't made this decision, you know, the pressures off me. It was just wonderful. You know, like, it was bad that he was in there. But you know what I mean? It was just the best thing that happened to me like, he couldn't live without me. Yeah, and that means that you can get some sleep. And if you're someone that does need a lot of sleep and you're not enjoying breastfeeding, or it's hard or you don't have enough milk or a million other things, some women who take medication they need to have means they can't breastfeed. Some women have had mastectomy is like there's just like a million different reasons why you might not need you might not be able to breastfeed. And it's just not that big a deal. And obviously in an ideal world, like there are lots and lots of benefits to breastfeeding. I'm not saying there aren't there are heaps and if it had worked for me, that would have been wonderful, but this idea that somehow we need to guilt mothers about it and be so hard and I said I think that paste, I'm so passionate about women being kind to themselves in. Because I think that's where so much of this stat is. And it's not an accident because culture is hard on us, then we are so hard on ourselves. And then we compare and think about what it should be. And if my friend can't breastfeed, but that's fine for her. But no, no, no, I must have these ridiculously high standards for myself. And I think also, something I write about in my songs self. So one of the lines that song talks about, I think birth trauma, which is what I experienced, and I'm assuming you had some deaths from the to from your story. So part of is that and actually one in three women, I think the statistic in Australia at the moment experience birth trauma form, which is a giant. Yeah, and it speaks into like, then the mental health outcomes for that flow on from there. And there's lots of reasons as to why that might be the case. And part of it is the system. There's lots of things that are broken. But that song self talks about that. The first line is a woman at the start broken open now thinking that shields fail, you can hold your own damn self, your self can still prevail. I remember being told it won't hurt. Miracle can push through the pain, but I'm bleeding, just try harder. And you should be better at it all. Here, take take all this shame. And to me that feeling of shame, and failure, and you should be better, why can't you do it was at the crux of so much that I struggled with in those early days of motherhood and it wasn't just what I was putting on myself. It was the culture that I gave birth in and then some of the midwives and the doctors that I came up against who was so dismissive of me and my needs and judgmental when I couldn't make what I thought you know, what I thought was gonna happen happen with the breastfeeding piece I just think there's there's just so much room for so much compassion, knowledge and education around all of it. And love I think we need to put love back in okay occasion this love this that's a really good point. And when you were talking about that judgment of, of medical professionals, like, this kindness, this compassion, like, it's like, I know they deliver babies every day, like they've done millions of them, whatever. But in that moment, you need a person that's gonna have your back and gonna support you like, I Sorry, I'm gonna get emotional but when the worst the thing that really now this isn't my podcast, this is your episode. But when when we arrived at a hospital to have Digby, the second one, the midwife that greeted us her first words to us, what are your late you were told to be here for an early induction. Why? Why weren't you here? And it's like, I just I almost burst into tears right then, because I have this thing. Just before like, the few days before I have a baby. I get really anxious. Like, oh my God, my life is gonna change. Oh my god, how's this gonna get out of me? Like all those big things. And on the way in the car, I was just so anxious, like both my boys have been induced. So I knew it was coming. You know, I had this time to build myself up into this frenzy of anxiousness. So when she said that I was just like, oh my god, really? Like I'm already feeling so vulnerable. And so yeah, vulnerable and she just spiked bang. And then she just kept going. It was like, Oh, he's in there waiting for you. It was like, Oh, my God, like, seriously, you're going to speak to me like this. Like I started I got really like, we're I was really upset. But I sort of tried to hold it together. And then she said something else about she wanted a a urine sample. And she just handed me the thing and just points that one just goes going there. I was like, oh my god, seriously, like it was just, I sat on the toilet and I burst into tears. And I just thought that she's not going to do this, like this is not okay. And I went back out there and I thought, okay, I can either tell her as I want a new midwife or I can just try and make peace with this woman, whatever's happened in her morning like she's bringing this to us. You know, it's obviously, you know, things aren't going well for this lady. So I basically walked out there and I put my hand on her shoulder and I said, Look, can we just start again? place. And she just took a massive sigh and she just sort of went like this. Like if she realized I think what she what she'd been doing. And she was totally different from that point. Apart from pride at the end, where we went for the urgency Cesar and she went and stood next to the wall like I can literally see an hour I'm pointing it was at the wall stood at the side of the wall with a back to the wall and just left me to it. And I was so afraid. And so like, because they'd already stuffed up my epidural. So I could still feel my contractions on one side of my body, he put it up too high. And so my at one point, my lungs, like my breathing was compromised. All these sort of, you know, stuff was happening. So I didn't trust that they were going to get this beat, right? Like I was in fear that I was going to feel everything that was my biggest fear. And so they were like, holding like a bag of ice on me. Can you feel that? And I said, I can feel the pressure, like Piglet, but can you feel cold? Like they were like, not attacking me, but they were like, Can you feel that sort of thing? It's like, but I can I can feel you touching me am I supposed to feel that, you know, I was there using their medical terms. And I'm using my like, and I can feel you touching me. So I was just in total fear. And thank God, this beautiful, amazing theater nurse came over and she held my hand and she stroked my head and she said, I know you're scared, it's going to be okay, we're all here to help you. And I burst into tears because like thank god, somebody cares for me sort of thing. You know, it was, again, maybe they've got themes of abandonment and stuff going on. But somehow I needed someone to help me. And she was amazing. And that entire that entire Severian I could obviously feel them pulling and whatever. But I laid there in fear because any second now I thought, I'm going to feel something really painful. Like I was just so afraid. Plus officer I was afraid for my child because he's, you know, he had to be gotten out quickly. Yeah, just this this kindness, kindness and compassion. And even you know, people mean well, but like, in my sister and I both talked about this, like nurses that had come in to help you breastfeed or whatever. What are you doing that for here? Or what's wrong here? What's wrong today, but just the language they use? I was in tears at some point because some woman just looked at me and said, What's the matter with you today? And I was like, Whoa, like just sent me off. Like, you know, you're so vulnerable when you read the you know, you feel like every nerve endings exposed and everything is going to set you off and then someone says something so off the cuff and they don't mean anything by it. But you just lose it. It's like they don't know that you know, they don't see that they're everything they do has an impact on us at that time. So yeah, compassion love caring after all, oh, sorry. Sorry for that experience. And I hope you leave the scene because I owe more stories that we can share my tears now. I know it's hard on it tell you that shame isn't your to hold your body this way let it sink in. Beautiful. They may see your beautiful, wonderful you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I will certainly do you know what I know now having spoken to a lot of women in this space, and there's a podcast episode I did with a friend of mine, Kim Beale, who's a woman client physio, and she does birth preparation and lots of things. She said one of the number one things to indicate that you're going to have a good birth is feeling safe. Because when you think about a cat, they will go under the house in a really dark warm spot. It's really enclosed. It's very quiet, in order for your body to do the things that it actually needs to do and it naturally should do. You need to feel so safe and your body needs to know that you're safe. It's not even just your mind. It's your body as an entity needs to breathe that safety and that calmness. And it's so fragile and precarious. So if you have a person like I had a woman when I went into labor and I started singing into the pain, I was told to shut up get back on the bed, you'll exhaust you Stop making that noise. Oh my god. Yeah. And I now know that singing into contractions. If you're a music person, or just anyone that has that vibration is perfect. It's perfect for opening new opening your cervix allowing for you did give the and I just think that even just that interruption let alone how that woman spoke to you and I had other interactions with her, of course your body when you're already anxious, and then your body is supposed to open. Of course things are gonna go right not to mention intervention and sometimes intervention is necessary. But there's so much research showing that if you intervene early, then things are more likely to be more painful, like with inductions and things I was induced to. And things just cascade and having that power and the knowledge that you need to set up this birth space for you. In however that looks however weird, you might think it is particularly as a creative being. Like I think about what I like and need when I'm making music. When I'm in my zone. I didn't think about my birth like that. I thought about it like a medical procedure, when actually I needed some weird and wonderful dark space with like insane music and candles and like, really cool witchy women in with me. So I could sing my way through it, you know, and it happened with my daughter. But by that point, I'd had such a sort of difficult birth injury for my son, that I had a planned cesarean with her because I just couldn't envision having lifelong or worse injuries and I already had with him. And in hindsight now I kind of wish that I had been able to have a birth where I felt I could sing her into the world. And it still breaks my heart. Because she's a singer she already singing. As a three year old, my son is so creative too. And I I get so sad thinking that I could have sung her into the hook her very first sign of life was this vibration. And I also think that's not my fault. And it's not something that I'm just I'm sad about. And I think it's important to acknowledge you can feel sad, but not beat yourself up about it. You're stuck in a system that isn't designed for you. And so I'm sorry, that experience happened to you too. So sorry. And I also feel like for other women going forward for my daughter, I'm just so passionate that she can find if she decides to have kids. If my little boy decides to have kids like that they've got all this knowledge they're armed with so that it may not go the way you plan in Him there will say that in that tonight's episode, like it may still go awry, you may still end up with an emergency subject to them. But if you've got this kind of birth map, where you know from the outset, right, when I get in there, these are the people that are going to be there, I know them and they know me, they care about me. That's a big one. They really care about me, whoever they are whoever they look like, if they're a midwife, I've known for years for my pregnancy, if they're a friend who's also human birth, who's going to make me feel safe. But then if things go wrong, these are all the different things that will happen. Because then if you feel in control and educated, you're less likely I was terrified to go I had surgery afterwards. And that fear of you just not trusting that they will do the right thing. And that's smart, because they hadn't didn't do the right. They stuffed up your you know, Fe juror which happened to a friend of mine to hers fell out of her back. And no one believed her. They said we put it in you can't be feeling anything, you know, like that. There's also inherent misogyny in the system that stems from that Christian Christianity really and that idea that Eve was cursed in childbirth. And so from that point on, you can see that in the medical profession, that women's pain overall is just less acknowledged less believed. The babies as well for my son's reflux. It took me six months to get a diagnosis. They just don't believe you weird, a particular and they think like endometriosis, all of these different conditions. I speak to another naturopath called Freya, Lola, about endo and chronic stress and hormones. I'm just so passionate that women get as much information not only about their birth, but also about menopause. How we go through our birth will affect how we menopause, about how we integrate our hormones, about the changes in our bodies and how our hormones fluctuate how to care for and eat better. So that when we do have these hormonal changes when we enter perimenopause, which I didn't even know it feedback. So that we write that we know why we feel rage, why we feel exhaustion, why we feel brain fog and how to eat and exercise around those things. And part of it is bringing our stress levels down, thinking about what our life looks like, and whether it's actually sustainable in its current form. It's there's so much care and knowledge that needs to be put back in that we used to have that's been taken from us. Even talking about periods and all that stuff without shame. Like, I just think it's just so important. And I think podcasting is a great medium for that, too, during having these discussions, because, and having like, What are you talking about your birth like that? I'm so hopeful there's someone listening to these studies and midwife or a doctor or an obstetrician or someone in the hospital setting, because I have found that with telling my story and my songs now that I do, and I did a live show over the weekend, where I did the same thing. Because so many of the women I've met since who are midwives on maternal health nurses have said to me, yes, I can imagine exactly who that woman was that Pat said that to you. I've met her I've met someone like her. But also, it's a great reminder for us, because we are just ticking boxes, we're going through the motions, we're exhausted, we're tired, we're underfunded and devalued. And so like that woman you met, you've had her she's lived her whole life before she's got there. And so being reminded that for each woman that comes in this is life or death, for her that view, it might be the seventh woman you've seen for the day, and how precarious and fragile, and in need of love and care we are in those spaces and, and allowing us to bring the love of the people in our lives, if we're lucky enough to have them into that room, or at least the people that we'd like to be there and not just thinking it's a purely medical thing. Because I think that would have made a difference. And at So, anyway, gosh, how did we get to here? But no, I have got a couple of medical people that listen. And there's one midwife in particular, who often will message me after some episodes, and be like, suggest, they'll suggest the name of maybe the doctor that I talked about, or someone they know, like, we're anywhere relatively smallish. I mean, we're not a small town, but we're a small regional center. So most people know who people are. So you know, if you're listening, Yvonne Hi. Hello. And I will say as well, through this work I've been doing taking this album around the kind of like that. So So for example, on Sunday, at the Wesleyan, there was this old pub, it was it used to be a church, and they've made this kind of bandroom we had candles everywhere. And all these women came it was so incredible. And just like midwives and maternal health nurses, women who are physios and women who are interested in birth, women who are just moms who've, like had a rough trot or just brought their mother's group along. And then there were couples that came in. We had Lauren Beatty, who's a psychologist who now runs these sessions called maternal journal, which are bringing mothers into circle to journal and make basically a very experiences. And so she spoke about the treatments. And then I played my story and my songs. And we all crying, it was like a pack sold out roots. So completely happened. Still wild to me. But just the feeling that people kept said to me afterwards, I feel lighter, I feel seen, I feel connected. I feel like so many other women in my life are going through something that I didn't know that well, their birth story, they told me in a kind of funny way, but now I actually understand how traumatic it was for them. And I noticed when the show finished, rather than people leaving, they all sat for ages having a glass of wine, just like laughing and talking. Yeah, that's that. That's really I mean, starting to do regional shows now because I do think women in regional areas, from what I've heard from you too much more isolated in lots of ways. And I did did one in yackandandah. And when in my whaler recently, I'm doing another one in ships. And I'm just really passionate now about taking the show on the road. going make women cry all over the country. All alone out. There but really, it's that meeting of all of the professionals in the space and the women who have cared for them, by them kind of connecting and bringing empathy back in and understanding. Can you come down here plates? genuinely love? Yes, seriously? Seriously? They will be. We have to talk about that after. Totally. I'm actually planning a show in Newcastle. And I'm thinking about going to the Northern Rivers, planning little adventures. I'm actually also been invited to go to the UK would leave it in Chile, so no oh my god for two weeks. I'm going over there with Amy Taylor to bad season. Oh, yeah. I know, she reminded me I know. You're gonna go play music to women in the UK and Ireland, and Scotland. And just for two weeks, I'm taking my music producers EQs 30 is like big burly biker tats. He's like, gonna play music with me. And he's a lot of fun. So very special. But yeah, let's talk. I would love that. Yes. Now, I've just realized that I haven't asked you about your children. Here are kids. I have to one of these three, my daughter and then my son is eight. He'll be eight in October. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I think coming to England, are you having a child, I'm going on my own. So I talked about lucky. He's amazing. And also, we just co parented from the very beginning, we have lucky like that we both worked from home in the company together. So he's probably a better parent means always. He's much more routines and like, he's great. So I'm very, very lucky to have that. And also family support to so yeah. A long time need to be away. But how and how are you feeling about that? But one of the topics that and I'm not wondering, like leading you into this to say that you have to feel this way. But I'm just linking it together, that we have, we have this thing called mum guilt in our society, unfortunately. Are you feeling you know, apprehensive about going or leaving them? Because you're going to do something that doesn't involve them? Or you'd like, Yes, I'm going, Okay, this people put up here, we're going to turn the podcast off. Once I save you know, that guilty in the beam. In the beam, I have huge amounts of guilt about a lot of things over time I was raised Catholic, it's part of it, the guilty, giant, giant guilt. And so but what happened to me over the past couple of years speaking to a woman after woman person after person was I started to hear this guilt month or guilt being like of the wanting to be with them, but wanting to be a way that this mother thing some speaks into this constant struggle. And I just realized, I ran hard at this creative project last year, for the first time in my life, I prioritize my work over my husband's, I prioritized it over a lot of other admin things and cleaning, and I just threw myself into it with as much gusto as I possibly could. Partly to save myself, I think because I was at such a low point, that was the thing that brought me back into myself. And what I've realized is, I thought, my kids would a suffer hate me, I'm the worst parent, everyone's gonna think I'm a terrible mother, all of this stuff. And that was my greatest fear in doing that. And so I didn't do it for a very long time. But what was kind of interesting about throwing myself into this work and creating something I'm so proud of is that, like, my son started drawing me for the first time, he usually draws like Pokemon transformers, and sometimes he's dead. And it's dead. There I am. Front and center in his drawings is a big heart on my chest with me standing on a stage. And he sees me as a person, not only as his mum, which is a really special thing. I know. Also, I'm privileged to have a partner who is on board, and I trust completely with all of it. That part of doing that was also writing down the list of everything I was doing for the mental load. So there's been a lot of layers, but it didn't happen overnight. The guilt in the beginning, like a lifelong process, will probably backstory, who knows, but I sat down with him. And I wrote down everything that I did in our lives, like I did the admin for our company, I facilitated so much of his creative work. Plus all the kids stuff. I wrote it down from the get go in my new detail, for example, uniforms. What size are they where to buy them from? How much are they? How many pairs? Like, yeah, he did the same. And I thought maybe it would be when we looked in. It was so powerful to see though that because he thought it was equal really, he's a one he's so aware and maybe that he could finally see all of the things and now I don't micromanage anything anymore. He takes on board like so many things. And I it's not a boss employee relationship. It's a Boss Boss. So he'll be like the vaccination did you I booked the GP appointment or the kids, this person's going to a party and I bought the present, I'm going to drive them, it's on Sunday at 10 o'clock. Like, that enabled me to fully expand into this credit project. And so the mother guilt thing, I just don't think serves us, I just don't think guilt is a is a helpful emotion. I think rage is, I think love is I think empathy is I think compassion is I think being critical, in a way, particularly in your art are like self critical. But in a way that's like I would call it as when I was a primary school teacher, being a critical friend, you know, like being real with yourself about like, what you could improve on. But the guilt thing doesn't help anyone. So I'm still going to do it anyway. So or what am I going to do spend the whole time feeling bad about the fact that I'm enjoying myself, like, get in the bin, that it would say, I love these, this idea of tempering joy, and I grew up doing this a lot that like I can enjoy this too much. Because something bad will happen? Or what if this happens, or like seeing your kids asleep? And you're like, Oh, this is beautiful. What if they die? You know, like, Oh, I do like to fail them? You know, like, yeah, we tempering our joy, but it doesn't actually change the outcome. So now I'm trying as best I can mangle in the been fully running towards the creative project that I get to do feeling bloody lucky and privileged that I'm getting to make it knowing that I think it's important to me as a human, for my kids and for my daughter to see me making and doing and being a full happy person. And oh, well if they go to school and their uniform labels peeling a bit. And I know they've had to forage around the back of the cupboard for some biscuits put in their lunchbox, so be it. Yeah, oh, yeah. Absolutely. That's it, isn't it. And that this whole, I don't know that what we're trying to do, of breaking that cycle and changing this patriarchal society and all these things we've talked about with health care and mental wellness and things like it has to start somewhere. And if we keep showing their kids, that what we're doing is okay, and acceptable, then they'll just keep doing it in their next generation. So we have to make the changes, and we have to let the kids see the changes. Because kids will do much more of what they see than what you tell them and what you want. And when I've had my daughter, especially but for my son, just the same. What I want him to be is a person that isn't always happy because no one's happy all the time. But is content finds work that feels the map is purposeful, that has meaningful relationships that is kind to themselves, that notices the world and is curious about the world that understand their place in things and feels connected. And for them to be that I need to be that. And I'm not going to be that by obsessing over whether or not I've mopped the floors every day and how perfect my hair looks and whether my kids are perfect. Like I have a friend who I text MSC cupboards to. And I love that. That's good. Friends you miss, find them over when your house is a disaster zone, not when you've spent like an hour being sweaty and crying, fixing it. So perfect. So when they arrived, you're like, Oh, this is the, you know, like, and obviously I still do that too, because I carry a lot of shame around making things clean and having that organized stuff. But I think that's the real stuff. That's connection. That's what heals us. That's what makes us whole and that will make our kids whole let me tell you, they're not going to remember how perfect your house was. But they will remember how they made how you made them feel. And what they see do in the world. Yes, so well said absolutely. Yeah. Love that. Oh, do you feel like I'm gonna shake myself down? You know, we need things and you're like yeah, that's actually that's that's a real appeal. That's what I didn't get on the show. And like ducks do and honestly, you just have to shake off that shake up all the stories and the emotion like genuinely that's why we should do it more. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah, like there's a sock on Play School about shaky sillies out and like you let's we got to get it out of here. So then you could sit down because actually, that's fine yoga, they do all the assignments and then you sit down and meditate afterwards. It's like you've got all the movement. Yeah, yeah, I totally I think so much of healing is movement. And often now I've thought to myself, it's body to mind for me anyway. Like talk therapy is great as well and has its place but I think I met committees like getting your body right getting you got health right? Yeah. And that's yeah, that's something else but science is finally catching up with like, you know Western medicines finally realizing that we're naturopaths have been right for so many years love it when the heavens likes me I was thinking about my friends and hate him. When you walk across the room, I couldn't help us. Sad Hello You sad hello what I wanted to mention to you, I've been listening to your our, the matrices album on Spotify, which it's just, it's such a I don't know, it feels so reassuring. And I think from people that have been through this stuff, when you listen to it, it just makes you like you said it makes you feel heard. It makes you feel validated. But there's a couple of tracks that I was really, I thought were pretty cool feature to have. And at the start, you've got this incredible, like, inhale and exhale, and love. Was that like a deliberate thing? Or did you accidentally do that and then decide to leave it in there. Cuz I just love it. Look, I yelled done it now. So why that particular inhale happened when I wrote that song. When I sang, right? What I do is get very still. And I wrote that song in the back room of my singing teachers studio, as by myself. Very rare to get that as a mom, I think, but that's what I needed. It's almost meditative for me. And that song came out in about 20 minutes. I love it. When that happens. It's like, you know that it's meant to be like that don't yeah, it's just yeah, it just pours out of you. Yeah, it's like a creature, I feel. And that particular moment was that was when I record the way I write because I have a voice memo recording, so that I can just capture it all. Sometimes I'll be walking and stuff. And I'll capture that. But I had the voice memo on and if you listen really closely, there's like a feedback speaker as well, kind of making a sound that we then used in the track. And also, there's breath as beat track that runs through it. And yeah, that was from the original the moment when I wrote it. Took this like inhale, exhale, breath to kind of center myself. And then I wanted it left in there. That song was the first one I brought to zekiel Feminine music producer. And he seems on my other staff. And that was a brand new one and written like the day before. And I was like this is what I had. So clearly in my head. I wanted to snare drum run through it. I wanted this to use that breath and use that speaker sound and yeah, so we use the original voice memo, quite a lot of them in the in the album have that original voice memo recording. Wow. Oh, that's awesome. That's so cool. I love that. And the other thing I really liked too, is in one of the tracks free I think it is with this. There's a child counting like bringing in the template is that wonderful kids to either that's my daughter. Yeah. And you know, she was jumping off a bed. That's the same. That's a voice memo. She was jumping off the bed and just counting yourself down and check yourself again again. She's their own biggest, super loud and joyful and I just grabbed my voice memo on my phone and recorded it. And I will say that for anyone who's a songwriter, that voice or an app that Mike's actually really great. Quality is very good. I just like captured it and then I took it to Zeke and was like, I want to add this into free and Saturday. Yeah, yeah. I love that. It's like, oh, no, like, it reminds me of years ago, I went to a training call of training course a local person that was telling people how to run their Instagram accounts. And they said, You've got to keep like, because she did a like a one on one with her. And she said you've got to keep your own account, your private account separate to your singing account. You've got to create a new account just for you. And Kevin, keep you singing one I'm like, but that's me. Like that's who I am. And she's like, No, but that's that's like your business that's you think I'm like, but that's an I didn't do it because she was telling me to take all these things out and change them. It's like, but everything that's in that account is inspiration to me like my children are a massive inspiration to me. And I love that. You've got that crossing over it in your actual music that you're releasing of, of your children. And you're singing like it's literally the two worlds are together. I just love that. I love that. Thank you. That's such a big compliment. I agree with you. I I think people have a lot of opinions about how you should do the things. And I really think for me, that you just have to follow your gut really deeply. And the thing that you know, the most and the best is your lived experience. And when you make art that deep seated place, like and, and you can feel like it's small and very specific and kind of weird. But actually, everyone's their own special, unique brand of weird. And you're more likely to touch people when you're making art from these really specific, close places. And I think that was social media, which is this kind of unfortunate base that we're all in. But connecting. And yeah, I don't have a separate one for you know, it just all leaves in my account. Really, I have someone else that runs one futons pod into decimal, but we don't do much on there. Because really, I just Yeah, I want to make it from that place. And I don't speak too much about my kids. And I don't use their names because I'm also conscious, I want them to choose how they represent themselves when they decide to. But definitely, I wanted to just be to operate my music and my art and the same with my podcast as much. With as much heart and integrity and honesty as I could. Because that's what I needed. Like I really did it selfishly. I think there's a mate and amazing book, Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Have you read that? No, I haven't. I do love it as a creative. It's just like, I go back to that book, like the Bible every so often, just like her voice just seems out at you. And there's a really great section which talks about Tom Waits and his songwriting, and how he sees songwriting as creatures, which I had never, I've always felt like that and songs following me around. And I just thought everyone had that turned out. No, not the case. They were gonna get drunk and then write songs into their phone in the toilet cubicle. I thought that was I thought that was um, everyone that you know that he she there's a section in there about his creativity and songwriting and he talks to his songs and like, Come on, mate, you gotta get on the bus. Stop mucking around. Anyway. But this particular would be magic is so much great advice for creatives. And one of the things you said is for the love of God, don't make something for everyone else make it for you. And then if other people love it cool, like she's the author of Eat, Pray Love. She said, she wrote that book for her. Turns out lots of other people saw themselves in it. But yeah, that's so that's so the whole album I made. For me, I listened to those songs like friends when I was struggling in different parts of my life, which sounds weird that you might listen to your own music, but on their friends, their friends of mine, I wrote them, because that's what I needed in particular moments. And I seen them in particular moments. When we spent so long making good girls come read through as we wrap that up, we're gonna tear down this k two rounds, because we had this conversation. I can't remember who it was with now, but it was someone to do with music, the music industry, and it's like, it's literally an industry, it is a money making machine. And if you're going to try and get into that, you've got to be prepared to let go of who you are, and what your voice has got to say. Because you're not going to be doing it for yourself, you're going to be doing it for someone else who's trying to make money out of you. So it's like, don't write music for other people. That was literally where we're going. We're going with it. Same thing. Like if someone resonates with what you've written, that's amazing. That's like that connection is incredible. But that's not why you do it. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, um, I guess where I would say too, it's such a privilege and my, my therapist, Jules, who's just this incredibly amazing person and a creative to just says to me, don't put the guilt in the bin. Don't talk about like age, or where you're at or shoulda Coulda, Woulda, all that bullshit, bow down to the altar of the fact that you have the time and resources to make the art you want to make. And I'm at a point in my life. And I'm very privileged to say this, that I can make the music I want because it's completely independently funded. And I can do it how I want and the power of that, I think and at this time in my life as a mom, not a lot of women have that space and time in their life when I'm writing from this particular moment. On this new URL The Parenting phase when the kids are little. And I'd also say to that I couldn't have written this music. When I first had my newborn. I needed enough time to pass. Someone said this. You can't write from trauma you have to write from the scar. And I think that's really valuable advice to. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. Because we're going to talk about myself. Now, again, because I haven't done enough of it on your podcast clear that I've been at the very end of an album that I've been working on, for, I'd say almost three years about my posts now depression. And it's only six tracks. But do you think I could do it within you know, any cricket? No, because I think that's the thing you have to, you have to let time go. And also be able to mean, you have a lot of my stuff I've written from the point of view as back in there. And that's really hard to go back into. So sometimes you have to let a lot of time go before you're ready to actually go. Okay, I can go back into this now without make letting myself I'm not going to fall apart. If I think about it. You know what I mean? Yes, I think that's very true. That that I'm saying, Yeah, I can't wait to hear that album. No, neither can I No, it's, it's so different. Like my first album, I made, what 2019. And it's all just very, very under produced. It's like acoustic instruments, there's a couple of upbeat tracks. But this is just like, hardcore. They calling it a duck pop. So it's like, there's a lot going on. And this the tracks run chronologically from when it first came when I first got the post out depression, like couple of days in hospital, up to happy, wonderful land. So the tracks, you know, from the musical standpoint, like through the instrumentation, and the treatment of the songs tell that story too. So I'm really, really happy with with how it's gone. And yeah, it's, it's been a long time, but I don't know it. I think it just had to be that way. You know, things just happen when they happen. And also need to person. Yeah, but I totally agree with you that things got takes time. And really good art and truthful art takes as long as it's gonna take. Yeah, and you want to just feel like you've left nothing on the table? Or yeah, yeah. And that was I'm particularly felt like that with this. Because, I mean, who knows? What, if I'm gonna get another opportunity to, to, you know, have an album come out, you know, you just don't know what life will give you. And I don't know, I'm a little bit conscious to that, you know, because I'm an independent artists that the money's not coming from elsewhere. So it's like, you know, am I being really self indulgent, using, you know, family's money to do this thing. So it's like, I wanted to do give it the best go, it could have, you know, and make all the sounds that I wanted it to make and go back and forth with the producers because they're in Spain and Argentina, the people I'm working with, so Wow, it's like I've, if I'm the sort of person I've been a bit of a people pleaser, sometimes with my music. If someone's had a suggestion, oh, yeah, that sounds fine. And really, inside, I'm going no, I don't like that at all. But I don't want to rock the boat. I don't want to be the person that causes trouble. I want you to like me, you know, that sort of stuff. But with this, I've gone no, I'm paying you to make this. And I don't have to talk to your face to do it. So I'm going to tell you if I don't like something, which I really haven't had to do much off. To be honest, they've been pretty amazing. But yeah, be conscious of, of, you know, you never know when you'll get your last shot at something. That sounds really morbid, but not I'm not talking like a mike die necessarily. I'm just it's like, you know, I'm 40 How old am I? 45. I hope my voice lasts forever. But I mean, I've had to, I've also had two rounds of COVID. So I don't even know. Like I tried to sing yesterday. And it wasn't that great. So I don't know if my voice is actually permanently damaged from you know, COVID pneumonia. COVID. Again, bronchitis for the last six months, like who knows, you know, just in general life. So anyway, sorry, I'm rambling a bit now. But no, you know, it makes so much sense. It absolutely. Isn't the right I can really believe that. And I think I like you know, it's jewelry for the inside of people's mind. So it doesn't matter. No. But also, yes, absolutely. All of it matters. It's the most important thing. And I think that's that that was inescapable talks about that those two things can be absolutely true. That if you're going to make something you make it absolutely the absolute best that you can and and I think as women, particularly we're socialized to not be difficult to want people to like have all of that stuff. But we just need to you need to trust your own instincts in your own gut and go it's not good enough, not good enough. It's not good enough. And I want it to be this I want it to be that this is my vision and and I think blokes have been doing that for a very particular white boy. For a very long time, you know, and I think the more interesting art is coming from that place where you, you don't want to ever think that you've got to the end of it and gone. Just that bit. What if I'd taken that risk? What if I, you know, go back into the work when you think it's done? And you're like, well, it'll probably do No, you'd go back in, you'd go back in and dig a bit deeper. And you and that's what I think I felt at the end of my album that like, however it comes, whatever happens after this point. I know that thing within the introverts life, I decided how you know, and I worked with Zeke, and I was lucky in that he was really amazing to work with. And also could do what I wanted, and I could hear it, but I could tell him, no, that's not what I want. This is what I want and change it and put ego out of it. And yeah, so I was very lucky in that collaborative process. But I think also I just, yeah, like you were saying, you just want to feel like you've given it your absolute best shot. So you're proud of it? Yeah, then you walk with it in the world. It doesn't matter if anyone else likes it or not. You are proud of it. Yeah, that's it is, you know, every inch of it. And you can be like, well, look at this thing. That's amazing that I've done. And then you know, in your heart when it's really as good as you could have made it, you know, yeah. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing, like, too, you know, you're talking about hearing bits and thinking are, you know, I wish I had done that I do that so much with my first album, and to the point where I actually recorded some of the songs with other people, with other producers, and did remixes of them, because I just felt like, and also, it was very rushed. Like, we did it in two weeks. And it was just, I'd never recommend doing that. My mom wouldn't do it again. So I take three, so the next one. But yeah, it's just like, bang, bang, it's got to be done. And it's like, no, there's so much that I listened to and I think, Jesus, I wish I'd said something about that. But then, you know, over time, I have the opportunity to, to re record things, which is also privilege, up through the whisper, laugh. Do I think I need you to let me show you. Want to ask you about when are you going to the UK. So it's just happened a couple of days ago. So I'm going I'm leaving on the 28th of June. I'm going over there for the first of July, most likely for a conference, I'm playing in a conference and then I'm just going to be touring. So I'm currently figuring out how to do that, what venues to go to where to play. I'm going to Exeter there's a group of women down there who are running mothers who make which are these big kind of motherhood, creativity stuff. So going there to do some, a little couple of songs in shows. But really, I'm going on my own same with my music producers at an a&e. And yeah, just putting on shows probably ticketed shows in pubs and that kind of stuff, learning how to do that as I go. But yeah, really super excited about it. And then I actually have a show in Sydney on the 30th of July at the great club in Marrickville. Oh, yes, I know. Alison, who runs it? She used to live in that game. Yeah, yeah. She's pretty awesome seeing it yourself. Wow. Yeah. Well, I sort of I saw that there was women running it. And I thought I want to be involved in that. And I haven't actually been there to the venue. But I've, from what I've seen, it looks really cool. So I've actually got Amy Taylor kebabs. He's going to speak first. So she's doing a speech about my dressing. And then I performed my album. And there's a dancer from Sydney called Aryan Basten, who's also an author that her book on perinatal mental health is coming out this year. And she's written about her experience of postnatal psychosis. But she actually sent me a dance that she'd created to my song self over Instagram. That just blew me away. I didn't know anything about her story. I just saw her dancing. And I saw in her movement that she understood me. She's that's pretty, that's pretty powerful. And so she's going to perform duet with me. So I'm going to sing self, which is that song about breastfeeding and, you know, woman at the start broken open now and that story, so she's going to dance and I'm going to see, Amy will speak and we're going to tell stories. And yeah, so Tickets are available now for that, and that's on the 30th of July. Oh, beautiful. Well, I'll put the link to your website in the show notes. And so people can click on there and see all your goodies. It's a lovely website Who does your drawings of like on your hour? and your little icons and things. My friend, Annabel one. So she's an illustrator from Melbourne. She's a friend of my brothers Actually, she's great. And I had a vision for the image of the front cover, and I do it in pencil. I'm a terrible visual artist. But I had the vision of it. And so she kind of brought it to life. It's lovely. Got the like, the heart is like exposed. It's like, yeah, we'll talk about that a bit about your ID for that front cover. Yeah, so I wanted an image that would capture how I felt when I became a man. And, to me that, it's like having you everything's exposed as like a raw nerve. And also, I think, that idea of an open heart, you are changed. And your heart is now kind of walking around in the world without you sometimes they're at school at your kids. And I wanted to show like, also, like, I'm not wearing any, it's not nude painting, but at the I don't have any like clothes on, you can just see me down to my clavicles with my open heart. It's kind of also reminiscent of sort of biblical art as well. And I got the inspiration to from Florence and the machines album lungs, you know, she has her lungs exposed on her artwork. Yeah, right. Yeah. So but really, I wanted an image that would capture all of it, because I actually when I drew that image, I didn't know I was gonna call it my presence. I didn't know that word. I just was writing what I was feeling. And the songs aren't just about motherhood they're about because of the complexity of being human really, and having big feelings. And so for me, I'm a very deeply feeling person, and my heart is very close to my skin all the time. So that's what I wanted to capture. Yeah, yeah. No, it definitely works. It's Yes, really good. Shoulder to face. So many faces go to places where we get to find books and battles, songs and schemes, somehow left, is there anything else you want to mention before I let you go? A lot today. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it. I'll look, I would just like to say if you're a mom listening to this, you're doing a great job, be kind to yourself, give yourself a massive hug, make a cup of tea, put your feet up, if you can. So that I would love to say again, what I would also say is if you want to find me, I'm on Instagram at Claire 20. That's probably where everything lives. My website, Cliff twenty.com Is the other spot where you can find about all my events and ticketing, all of that stuff. And I've got beautiful t shirt designs too. So if you like the artwork, you can t shirt with some of them on there's a moss, which is this Each song has its own symbol. So when you come to my show, I give you a lyrics booklet, like a an old school CD cover that has a artwork for each song. And each one has a symbol. So self has the mark because it's the idea of transformation in the darkness. And moths seek light. And to me that's what motherhood and mothering was, in those times so much time spent in the dark, waiting for the light to come. And I was transforming and I didn't realize so that's that kind of I have a T shirt with the math on it for that reason. Really powerful symbol. Lots of things to do with the moon as well, really. So yeah, you can find me over there. I have records as well. I would also say my podcast tons. The new season will be coming out later in the year. But I've got three seasons worth of really rich discussion with women and diverse voices about lots of topics. If you're particularly interested in chronic stress and hormones and you're feeling depleted, gone find that episode with fryer will tell you you won't regret it. It's the story of how I healed outside of music. Everything I did from food and medication and looking at diet and testing and just lots of things that helped me recover from long COVID symptoms. Yeah, that's a really valuable one. And, and yeah, come to a show and if you want me to come play in your area, I bloody love to I'm looking for places to come and bring the music so if you're someone out there that thinks your group of parents or women or community would like some music hit me up. Yeah, good on you. Oh, look. Thank you Claire. It's been so lovely and thank you for spending so much time with me today. We just looked at the clock. Just always made it to Uh, well before my little stuff up in the middle you know what, you know how I fixed the camera? I literally turned the computer off and on and then I started working that's The IT Crowd isn't it? Have you tried turning it off and on? I always joke about that someone made a joke once about if your car wasn't working you just get out shut the door open get back in again. And it should work. It's like a computer we often think that human beings are the same sometimes you just need to turn ourselves off face it yeah right yeah that's what people who do me a favor just go radical rest. I'm really all about that. Reading on Nast. Oh, just bloody. Yeah, so much can be solved in life with a bit more rest. I know that's a privilege but I also think some of the things we do we do out of obligation and guilt checking in the bean and have a nap. Yes, there you go. Chuck it in the bin. That's that's the theme of this show today chuck in the thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum

Adam Page South Australian saxophonist and composer S1 Ep10 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts To mark Father's Day here in the Southern Hemisphere I share 3 special episodes where I chat to 3 creative dads to get their take on things, how they continue to make music while being hands on dads. In this final of 3 special episodes, I chat with saxophonist, multi instrumentals and composer Adam Page who is a dad of 2 from Adelaide South Australia, Adam talks about the decision he made before even having a child about how his career would change, the struggle of being an artist during lockdown and how to manage being in a creative funk. Connect with Adam here Adam's youtube Adam's faceboook page Purchase Adam's music here Adam's music used with permission Connect with the podcast here When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks for coming on today. Adam. It's a pleasure to have you join on this very special episode. I am stoked. It's I think it's important to to open up these conversations. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. So can you tell us about your connection with music, how you got into playing and all the amazing things that you've done over the years? All right, well, how long have you got that look, I first got into music fully, I guess in Mount Gambier when I was a student at at Grant High School. And that kind of led on to coming up to Adelaide to to study jazz and as a saxophonist, and from that point, I kind of I don't know, I just, I just sat back and and let the you know, let the music guide where I was going. And I've done all kinds of things in my life since then, musically from spending three and a half years on cruise ships. playing in the orchestra is on ships to you know, touring with with bands around around the country and around the world and playing in make millions of recordings and as I guess a freelance saxophonist, but also a lot of writing as well heaps of writing for small ensembles and larger ensembles. Currently, I'm I'm writing for the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and have done multiple times in the last few years. I've written major works for New Zealand Symphony Orchestra and orchestra Wellington as well. I've traveled the world with my multi instrumental looping, improvised show. Yeah, I don't know like heaps, heaps and heaps and heaps of stuff. And this. This stuff happened. I mean, you know, a lot of it happened before I was a father. But there's still yeah, there's still a lot of it that still exists. Just, it just it just looks a little different now. Yeah, for sure. So you said multi instrumentalist? How many instruments can you play? Well, I own a lot more than I can play. But I mean, I guess the woodwinds are my first go to so you know, all of the saxophones clarinet, flute. Other flutes like Native American flute and Bansuri. But then, you know, piano has always been a big part of my, my sort of creativity. And the tools for writing sort of come from the piano. I play guitar, bass, drums and percussion. Yeah, and other bits and pieces. We add instruments from around the world. But yeah, I guess you know, I call myself a multi instrumentalist, but you know, I'm, I'm a saxophone player first. So you just you have a passion for just, like trying out new things and just seeing what happens and finding new ways to do things. Yeah, I do. I do because I mean, you know musics music and, you know, the, the fundamentals of music remain no matter what instrument you play in. So like I, you know, I play drums. Like, I play the saxophone, I play, you know, the nose flute, in the same way that I was, I would play the bass. It's just, you know, it's the same music but just a different different technique and a different a different voice that you're using. But inside it's still the same, the same music. Let's go and you went to New Zealand recently I saw on your Instagram. I did. And that was pretty lucky. I'd been working on a on a saxophone concerto that was that was written for me that I'd collaborated with as well in the composition process and you So I've been working on it for a long time. And I got to a point where it was was ready. And I was ready to go over and work with this orchestra and you know, do the performance and a recording as well. And then, you know, some, some some COVID business was starting to drop around the place. And I luckily, I got over, you know, before anything happened. And while I was over there, the Victorian outbreak sort of happened. And I luckily changed my flights earlier to go through Auckland in Adelaide rather than Melbourne. If I'd gone through Melbourne, I would have yet I would have been stuck. But yeah, I got back a day before locked down in South Australia. So I'm very lucky, I got it down. Because I think, you know, I mean, I'm just so used to cancellations. Now the last 18 months has just been just one projects lost after another. And I've got used to that kind of dynamic that it creates creatively. But if this if this show was canceled, I would have been pretty gutted. It's like an emotional roller coaster isn't it really is really tough. And, you know, the deeper we get into this, you know, like I'm understanding more and more about my, my creative process and what, what I need and what keeps me buoyant. And a lot of a lot of these sorts of situations that are occurring around us. In a lot of ways, they're kind of they're sort of drowning my my normally buoyant kind of attitudes and and my direction that I normally kind of take so and that's just purely because we can't, you know, we can't dream money we can dream it we can't fully turn those dreams into, into a reality without all of this uncertainty is attached to it. So it's yeah, it's very difficult. Yeah, for sure. It's like, you want to have ideas and goals and dreams, but you're sort of like, well, what's the point? Because it's not going to happen anyway, like, you feel that it's crushed before? Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying not to get to that point of like, what's the point? Because because the you know, in so many ways, the point is, it's not in the delivery, it's in the creation. And I hear, but it's hard, though, it's hard. Because, you know, you've taken you take away one fundamental part of the, of the project, which is the delivery. And it's very hard to stay focused. Without letting that that idea of, of uncertainty creep in, you know, it does definitely affect affect the creation effect ever every level of it. Really? Yeah, absolutely. Have you been able to do much like work online with your music, or you found other ways to be able to look back in the, like, you know, the first sort of wave, I guess you could call it I did a few online performances, which went really, really well. Like, I was surprised, actually, that the community that that kind of, you know, opted in was super supportive. And, you know, I could I could see the comment thread just going crazy while I was performing and it was just, it was just really nice. I'm, I'm planning on doing another couple of those in the in the coming weeks as well. Just like basically for my my friends over in New South Wales and Victoria and just to give them something to consume. But aside from that, I've been really lucky that I've had some I've had some composition projects that have really kept me and kept me going with with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and, and also some other, you know, work with with a small ensemble, the Ben Todd quartet, with Ben Todd, who's a drummer Paul white and James Marlowe and that those two projects have really kind of kept me kept me going. Yeah, but it's it's hard. So you mentioned a little bit before, before you had two kids. What did you music life look like at that stage where you're doing it full time? Oh, yeah. It's there. You know, there's, there's no doubt that once you have kids, the, you know, that changes, you know, and for me, I, I kind of made a made a decision before we had our first daughter that my life was going to change. Okay, and so what what I had in the past will not, I will never have that again. And that that led to me really thinking about priorities and this at this moment in my life, like what is important, and it really like, I mean, it was it was just so clear that the most important part of my life right now is is, is my family and creating those those irreversibly positive relationships with my, with my children and with my partner as well. And so, yeah, everything changed. I was doing so much stuff, creatively, and I was definitely absolutely in control of my day of my week of my hour, there was a point before we had kids, where, you know, there was quite a while where I would on a Sunday night. Look at my week, and I printed out these calendars with, you know, from from 5am to midnight, basically. And I would, I would schedule everything that was happening in the week, and I will just sit there for an hour or so on a Sunday night and, and just put it all in including, like hangtime, including breaks, including just like, Okay, so on Thursday, I'm doing nothing. And then and I'll just let it happen. And so you know, I'm I go to the art gallery, I might go for a swim or whatever, you know, Thursday's Friday, but then all of the other days, I would like totally just go like, right, this is best case scenario. And then, you know, I'd you know, on Monday night, I would, I would look at it and go see what's happening Tuesday and go like Anna looks cool, or I could change this change that. So it was a very, very productive. Incredibly, and then when you have children you like if you're if you're a committed parent, if you are completely into the next few years being, you know, in a state of creative upheaval, if you commit to that, then you know, it, it changes it changes everything, you know, you can't it's not possible to, to have those those sorts of positive relationships without making sacrifices. And, you know, and I hope I'm not sounding negative here, like, because I I'm very positive about and I'm very happy about the choices I make, because will have made and continue to make because I have had, you know, I've had discussions with with people who have gone the other way where they have followed the path of their career and their and their music or their art. And it's, it's caused the, you know, the downfall of their family. And that's, that's, that's long term. Okay. That's, that's an absolute long term thing that everybody regrets, I'm sure. And so, so yeah, it's, it's, I don't know, I've just gone I'm going around in so many circles here in different different directions. But you know, what I'm saying like, you've just got to make those sacrifices for the good of your, of your, of your village, you know, of that, that beautiful thing that we call family? Or? Let's see. Yeah, so you had you had a conscious think about it, I suppose, of what what your life was gonna look like and made a decision for yourself. But But can I if I can add to that, yeah. We also with with my partner, Georgia, like, we had really fantastic conversations about my career and about my art and about what I need, because my needs are very clear, like I need to be creating I need to be doing something musically. And, and the importance of that and so, you know, the conversation just even having a conversation about the importance of art of music and being creative in my life. actually gave me more room to to step away from that for a while and know that when the time was right, I can I can commit to it again, I can just go straight back into it. So and and it was funny because in the first you know, in her first year of life, I wrote basically 90 minutes of orchestral music for this concert and I had, I have no memory of writing it. Like, I don't know how I did it, but we made it work. And there was a bunch of projects that happened in that, you know, in those first kind of couple of years, because it's like, we had these conversations, we were totally open about what, you know what I wanted to do, but, but most importantly, what I was capable of first, firstly, as a, as a, as a musician, as an artist, but then secondly, as a father, you know, like, so it's a constant balance between the two, and, you know, short trips out of balance, sometimes, sometimes I'm way too busy. And, you know, I'm relying too much on on family and, and, you know, George's parents and, you know, to kind of, you know, give us a bit of help, but, but then other times, I find that man, I haven't picked up my horn in two weeks, you know, yeah, but it's just constantly constantly kind of in flux are out communication is key, all because, you know, like, one, kind of, you know, 30 minute conversation can make the next six months, like, so much easier, because you're honest about your needs. And you're honest about about the capabilities, that you have to be able to kind of get to the finish line with these with the projects, but, but at the same time, it's like you, you start that dialogue around, around how it's going to affect the family, because, because that's the big change. Now, it's not just about me, you know, like, I, you know, with my partner, we, you know, she used to love it, when I went away, when I did, because I said a lot of international touring a lot, a lot of touring around the place, and she'd be like, awesome, I've got some time to myself, it's fantastic. And I used to love being away as well, it's just so fun, so fantastic. And, but then all of a sudden, it's just like, it's no longer about, like me, it's like, it's like it's you, me and us all together, you know, and, and, and if that's the this, the, if that's central to your to every conversation, then you actually end up getting a better result, like everyone gets a better result from from being open and, and communicative and clear with with your needs. And also being realistic. I love doing this stuff. Because, you know, we, we need to talk, we need to talk about this stuff. Like I feel every time I talk about my my parenting style and how it aligns with my, with my art, I just, I feel good, I feel really positive. And I feel you know, and at times where, you know, at the moment, there's a lot of negativity surrounding our lives. And, you know, I think I think just just talking this stuff through reminds, reminds me that, that, you know, this too shall pass and, and I will get to a point where I'll get a tour, you know, somewhere and I'll say to my four year old or their, you know, your might be six at that point, hey, do you want to come on the road with me for a couple of weeks, you know, like, I know, that's going to happen, you know, I know that's going to happen. But yeah. And that's because it's because of the sort of the choices I'm making now. And, and waiting, letting letting life the be the thing that that that steers me, rather than my creativity, if you know what I mean. It's like you're, in a way, you're in a sort of a holding pattern, got all this amazing stuff, you know, you've got to look forward to because of how you've set, set your life up and set things up with your family. So it's really positive. When you look forward, it's salutely and it's a bit of a slow burn. You know, you can't expect it to happen straightaway. And I mean, sometimes I expect it, I expect things to happen far too soon. And, you know, I've just got to kind of try and try and sort of, you know, lose some of that disappointment. Knowing that it will, and knowing that, you know, it will be easier because I mean, we've got a four year old and a one year old at the moment and so we're wearing it at the moment. I'm wearing it deep. And you know, and it's no no word of a lie that the these last, you know, four years of our lives. It's the hardest hardest we've ever had to deal with. You know, you're just you're just totally forced to your absolute capacity and then some and but then you get out to the other side and just be like, Well, that was intense. That was intense. And, and then yeah, like, it just, it's, there's nothing like these first few years to, to really kind of remind you what it's like to be a human, or what it takes to be human. Yeah. And also, I think it gives you a sense of how much you're actually capable of that you probably didn't realize, because I've been forced to these extremes before. That's actually like, you can discover a lot of stuff about yourself that you didn't know. Yeah, yeah. But then on the other end of the spectrum, like I did not know, that I was capable of, of having so much love for someone else. Yeah. You know, like, the love I like I'm tearing up here. love I have for my children. Is it? I don't know anything else like it? Or actually no, nothing else like it. And, you know, when when I walk in the door, you know, a half an hour ago, and I hear my one year old going, daddy data, data and just like just crawling as fast as you can to get to me. Like, it's just like, far out like, what? What, what show have I ever done? That is as good as that. You know? It's the best and I think, yeah, I I hope that my kids realize that. I mean, I know they do. Yeah, I don't have to tell them that I love them so much. You know? Because I mean, I do every moment I can, but they I know they can feel it. Yeah, your actions, your behaviors are showing that. Yeah, and I'm sure, I'm sure that that that the the art that I'm creating at the moment is is is is in some way guided by by that love. That's something I'm interested to that I'd like to chat with people about, have you found that, that change in your life, that being a parent, and that all the changes and intensities that go with it? How does that How has that come out in your work, you find it reflected in what you're creating, I think I've written probably the most beautiful music that I could write through thinking about my, my daughters. One of them was when my, my eldest she look would have been about maybe six months old, and just screaming at three o'clock in the morning, holding her just just absolutely the at the end of my, you know, of what I could give her and just sitting at the piano and just started playing these arpeggios. And she just stopped. And the you know, I thought oh, this is cool. And so I just kept playing and kept sort of doing this, these these very simple arpeggios. And, and yeah, everything changed. And then I had like, I remembered it once he was asleep, and I just sat down at like, what at four o'clock in the morning, whatever is and wrote out this piece of music and and to this day, it's like it comes to her and calms me and and then last year I wrote her a saxophone concerto that was it was inspired by COVID and how the COVID pandemic was was developing and then halfway through and in the second movement I just it was when when you know our youngest was born and and yeah, it's I think it's the yeah it's up there with absolutely some of the most beautiful music I've made just because I I had her in my mind and I had her absolute kind of beauty and and it just it just came through in the notes and like music that never would have existed without without these experiences and I think I think the the beauty comes out of like the pain and suffering as well that you go through having having children and and then that loss of that loss of your old life because it is you know, I miss it. I'm not gonna lie, I miss it so much. It's like a mourning for Access, you have to go see lately? Because I mean, if you if someone says, I know, I don't miss my old life I, you know, this is this is this defines me now it's just like, that's that crap, I don't believe that for one second for one second and you know what it's I'm allowed to miss it because I missed it so much because it was so awesome. You know, but because it was so awesome that has turned me into a different person. And so it's like, well, you know, all of those experiences still exist, they exist in who I am right now. And all of those experiences still exist in in, in the stories that I'm going to tell my, my kids about, you know, the things that I used to do. And but then, you know, I don't I'm not saying that I'm going to be a hermit and just a father for the rest of my life, I know that things are going to change, things are going to get easier. And I'm going to get back on the road, I'm going to get back into doing more stuff and more full time. But at the moment, I've made that choice I've made that deal to be to be there to be present. What does your days look like? Now? I mean, obviously, you've quite busy with a one year old. But when do you find the time to be able to do what you need to do with your music? Well, so we've, we've found an amazing childcare center that both actually both my my kids go to now because Georgia, my partner, she went back to work three weeks ago, three days a week. So that's, that's been amazing. So the eldest goes three days a week, and the one year old, she goes twice a week. So I've effectively got two, three days of creative time now. It's excellent. And I have no idea how to use it. Like I'm telling you I'm at the moment like I'm, I've just been thrusted all of this time. And also because you know, it's a pretty, it's a pretty crazy world out there at the moment with COVID. And we were just committing to me doing some more travel, I'd meant to be playing three weeks at the Sydney Opera House in September, even though there hasn't been kind of publicly canceled. So and I was meant to be in Darwin this week for a festival. And of course, they've just coming out of lockdown. And so I've effectively got about six weeks of free time now as well, which has made our lives so much easier as parents because I wasn't going to be away for four or five weeks. Which I was really anxious about, just because of the implications of the home life, you know, and how Georgia could manage me we've got amazing supports from her, her parents. My folks still live in that Gambia so they can't, they can't help out in a physical sense. Yeah, so but but with this time that I've got, I'm in a real creative funk, hey, like, I've got all these projects that I want to, to embark on. I've been I've been constantly kind of dreaming stuff and writing stuff down. But to actually get to that next level, I'm finding it quite difficult. And I think there's a few things that are that, uh, like impacting my normal kind of my, my normal direction or my normal flow. And first and foremost, it's, it's that idea of what's the point? Yeah, are they actually going to happen? Like, you know, but I have to keep reminding myself that it's not, you know, the view is worth the climb. And so it's that whole kind of like, okay, the, the actual process is what's what I get the most amount of energy out of, you know, but then also, I mean, this is this is another can of worms, social media, like I'm, I'm absolutely 100% addicted to social media. And as as we all are, you know, if anyone's got Facebook or Instagram or Twitter on their phone, you're addicted immediately because those algorithms are so great. They suck you in so and also sort of not seeking out bad news, but just like looking at the news websites just to see what what bad things happened next, you know what I mean? And that's had a profound effect on my, on my outlook on life, like I'm at my core, I'm an incredibly positive and optimistic person. And I'm just feeling now that, you know, the, the, the weight of the world is getting a bit too much for me. And and so I'm actually I've made the decision this morning I'm going to have a bit of a break from social media, just because I've just found myself in some situations online that have been quite negative, and have sort of kept me up at night. And I need that you've got a one year old to keep you up at night. You don't need anything else keep me. I know. And so, yeah, it's a great, it's a great time to be having this discussion. Because, you know, the, the fact of the matter is that, you know, I've got all this time and I'm being super creative. But actually, the reality is, like, I've got all this time and I have no freaking idea how to use it. And that's the reality and that's, that's something that we need to all kind of embrace. I think. You can't be super creative all the time. Like this might be like a healing time that you just need for yourself, you know, to, I mean, a lot of people I think some people like hate lockdowns and hate whatever it is. But I know some people I've spoken to that are enjoying being locked away, because the world is so proud. And just being with the people they love and with the family that they need around them. I know that it's putting a spin on a negative but, you know, cocooning time for you, and then you know, the butterflies come out, you know, sometimes I absolutely, and I do track that I was forced into a, you know, physical and creative lockdown last year was pretty, like, the timing was pretty amazing. Because because we were about to have a kid, our second kid, and it was like, Okay, we're home. So what else are we going to do? We are going to, we're going to be here as a quartet. Like, who can go and deep? And it was it was, it was fantastic. And I think, for me, it's yeah, I'm still having trouble getting out of that zone. Because I loved it. Like I, I loved the fact that we were together so much. And that I'd made that choice four years ago, when we know when we had our first that it's like, this is this is a moment in time that I cannot get back. And any opportunity I can take to connect is going to bear fruit in the future. Yeah, and I mean, I've got some, there's some role models in my life that have that have been guiding me as well, like really strong, strong men and strong fathers that have really helped me through making these decisions as well. You know? And, yeah, and so the deeper you get into that mode of, of deep connection, and parenting, the harder it is to get out of it as well. And I think that's a part of it, as well, like i Yes, I've been incredibly creative in this time and these last four years. But I have no idea how I think, I think, yeah, necessity, I think deadlines are the only things that have actually kept me focused. I didn't have a deadline. I wouldn't be doing anything. I actually did write the other day. So I'm on Instagram, someone said that deadlines are really good for musicians, because they make you get off your acid do stuff. Absolutely, absolutely. And I feel like I feel like I need to get back into that kind of idea. Because I mean, for me, you know, so many of my bands that I would start were like, basically, we would just be hanging out, you know, mates hanging out talking about music, had this idea for a band, and then all of a sudden we'd book a gig and get a t shirt designed and before we've even written a note so it's like you know, like that's yeah, let's Let's book the gig. Let's get the vibe. This is this is what it's gonna be like and like, bam, here it is. And yeah, they go okay, so what is it going to be? who's playing what? I think I need a bit more of that in my life. That's like a really stress to get you going You mentioned that you've had some really good role models around you positive and negative, I suppose you'd say things that you you think, Oh, actually, I don't want to do that. Yeah, there's lessons everywhere. You know, I think that where, where we go so well, is through communication. And, you know, some some interactions I've had with other fathers in the past have been quite insightful just in their just in the way that they describe their relationships, you know, with their partners, you know, like, just using that, that idea of, you know, or you're lucky, your misses have, you know, let you out of the house, that sort of thing. And so it's like, man, if you're gonna use that kind of language with me, I doubt you've had, you've had a really kind of, you know, deep conversation about your needs, both both of their needs. And so, you know, I, I've kind of learnt from friends that have had children before me that, that communication is key to being a great parent, so communication with your other half, because sometimes it'll be, you know, it feels like weeks, we're living in the same house, but sometimes it feels like weeks that we've actually connected, like, within Georgia, it's like, full on and, you know, and that's, that's a scary, that's a scary cycle that can be, that can be created, you know, to the point where you, you feel like, you don't know each other anymore. And like, and so communication is just so important, you know, communicating when things are going well, as well. Or not just when things are going badly, you know, and when things are difficult, it's like, let's, let's celebrate these, these moments of, of clarity and, and enjoying our life or new life together, you know? Yeah, so I've definitely, I've definitely taken that from from my friends. You know, James Brown, who's a guitarist, one of my best friends here. Yeah. Him and his partner and their family, they've they've been a big influence, as has Ross McHenry, who's another fantastic musician, incredibly prolific creator, with three kids, I don't know how he does incredible, but he's been a massive kind of beacon for me. But also John Sophos, who's a composer in New South, in New South Wales, in New Zealand, who's my, one of my favorite people in the world, and, you know, he's, he's got adult children now. And, you know, he, he came and stayed with us, you know, when our, when our eldest was about kind of one and a half ish. And we would just sort of sit up the frontman hair, and just chat and just spend time together. And, and he said to me, that I, that he could see himself in me in the decisions that he made when he was a young parent, to put his his career and creativity on the back burner for a while and really hook in with the kid. He's now so close with his kids that are adults, you know, and he said that the stuff that you do now is it's fertilizer. You know, it's, it is lifelong. It's a lifelong connection. And, and you've only got one chance to create that connection. And, and he just said, Look, I'm so happy with what you're doing. Because he's, he's reaping the benefits of it now, with these amazing relationships with these incredible human beings. I know both of his, his his Well, kids so well, as well. And they're amazing humans, you know. And so I look at him and just think, right, I, it might be hard now, but I know that what's happening, what's to come is pretty, pretty magnificent. That's it, you're sowing the seeds to reap, in the field, you're out there. And I truly believe in that, that idea of we only get one chance at this, you know, I've got so many chances to write a new song. I've got so many chances to, to start a new band to, you know, book, a tour, whatever, you know, whatever creative thing. I've got so many chances and if one chance disappears, then there'll be another one. But right now this is my only chance to be to be Is that that kind of person? That I truly want to be as a father that, that, you know, absolutely. Connected? Absolutely. Kind of engaged kind of human around them. And, and you know, silly as well, you got to be silly. Get down on the floor got to get down on the floor with them and play. Yes, that's just so important. Yeah. And again, going back to the social media thing, I think I am using it as a bit of a kind of advice, I think. And it's starting to creep into my, my relationship with my kids as well, like, I'll be talking with them, but I'll be looking at FACP. At the same time, I'm like, Well, what's going on? I need to stop this war, because I don't I don't drink anymore. I stopped drinking five years ago. This is before we even started kind of talking about really having kids and while we've been talking about them, but actually, you know, trying, which I'm happy about. And so I don't have I don't have like alcohol to fall back on. which so many of us do, like, and I can see the power of alcohol as well to have a you just want to have a nice glass of wine at the end of the day. You know, alcohol works? Absolutely. So so I don't have that. And so is that why you cut it out? Because you could see your alignment team? Yeah, absolutely. And it's hard. It's been the hardest thing to maintain. But also, I'm feeling really good about it. Yeah. Good for you. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, right now, what is it? It's it's one one o'clock in the afternoon and I'm I'm actually drinking a beer right now. It's a It's so I'm still drinking but it's just non alcoholic beer and yeah. Thanks, great. Do rejoice, and celebrate when when Georgia, you know, has a swig on the tequila bottle. It's like it's pretty cool. It's just like, oh, yeah, you needed that you needed that? did want to ask me about your music around the children, particularly older daughter? Do you play your instruments around areas like she she's into your music? Here's how it goes. Okay, I sit down at the piano. I play one note, Daddy, stop. I sing a note. No, daddy stop. Yeah, it's been. It's going well, yeah. But she's decided that she likes being in the same room as me when I'm practicing the saxophone. Which I? Yeah, I've usually I've had to go to I've got it. I'm lucky enough to have a studio space as well. And so I go to the studio to practice and just because I know if I start playing, she'll run at me and yell at me. And, and I'm cool with that. Because I'm not forcing it on her. It's like, she is such a strong willed little girl. That that's just you know, it's a fight. I'm not, I'm not prepared to to embark on because it might just end up with her hating music. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to do that. I mean, she will never hate music. He loves music. She will listen to music all the time. She loves David Bowie. She loves like, she just loves music, which is fantastic. She wants to play the violin. And that's that came out of nowhere. I think just because we've been watching orchestral things and listening to orchestral things. Yeah, but so she'll sit with me when I practice. And so now, when I practice the saxophone with her, I'm purposely doing really simple stuff. I'm playing major scales. I'm playing scales and thirds. I'm doing things that aren't going to scare her away. So when she starts playing a musical instrument, she's already going to know the sounds and she's already going to know, like, how to practice. Yeah, and and funnily enough, yeah, like it was, it was amazing, like after, you know, a week or so she, you know, she came in with me a few times. She was just sort of sitting in the bar. Singing now she started singing this melody in thirds. She was makeup like, you know, corn and the fairy was things I think the singing in theaters and I'm like, Darling, are you singing what i've what I was practicing? She's like, Yeah. And I just thought to myself, well, there it is like it's Yeah, our youngest one. On the other hand, we can I can, I can pick up a spoon, and then drop it on the ground. And she will just go like, Oh, that sounds awesome. And she'll dance around. And she like, he is the absolute opposite she like you put on any kind of music and she just explodes. Right? They can pull up this and I, you know, and I play, you know, I play the anything that she loses. She goes crazy. When I put the blender on in the morning. She thinks it's the greatest sound in the world. And she's just sitting there dancing to the funny. Yep, she's just looking for any any opportunity just to bust out anyway. She's just, she's just hanging? Absolutely. Oh, look, I know that those qualities that that, you know, the oldest has are only going to be kind of her, or that they're going to be her superpowers when she's older. You know, it'd be so easy for us to to destroy that part of her. You know, but we want we're embracing it. Because, you know, the world needs more powerful women and she's, she's gonna take on the world. And I I wish anyone luck that stands in her way because they will not win. But that's, that's what I love about her as well. As challenging as it is. And as hard as it is to deal with sometimes it's actually like, pretty exciting. That she's gonna be that kind of person. Absolutely. Thank you can't wait to see can't wait to see what she doesn't care. She changes the world. Hope she's my manager actually. Even my manager, my bouncer. Yeah, personal security guy. Oh, that's so awesome. It is important for you to maintain who you are as a person outside of your role as a parent. Absolutely. Because, you know, as much as, as much as we say that, you know, we're the same person. It's, we're not, you know, and, and, and I really do believe that the identity is is incredibly important. And, you know, but but you need to know what, what that is, as well. And so, you know, what, what is my identity? And like, what, what do I identify with? And you know, what makes me me? And I've, yeah, there's a few things that make me me. One of them is, is reading, I read a lot. And I still read a lot. And I the one thing that I've kept from my, my life, pre kids is reading. And so every night I've read, it might be two pages. It might be two lines, it might be 100. I don't think I've, I mean, there might be some nights where I'm just absolutely smashed, and I just need to go to sleep. But generally, I'll read. So that's, you know, that's a big thing about my identity that I've kept. And that's and that's a silent part of my identity as well. But it's such an important part of me and a part of my life. And if I wasn't reading I yeah, I wouldn't be very happy person. And so So yeah, that that is the one thing that I've been, I've kept control of my identity as a musician. I don't think that changes because my identity isn't just about me, my identity is actually in other people. Now that might come out to kind of strange but, you know, in the eyes of of, of my public and the people that enjoy my music, they don't see me as a father. They see me as out of page the bearded musician So in many ways, my identity still exists. Okay? So that side of it, my public identity still exists. And if I, if I'm, if I'm trying to kind of, you know, simmer away at projects, and which I have been doing a bit, it's been more than simmering, it's been boiling sometimes, but, you know, if my output remains, then my identity in the public eye is the same, it just keeps growing, I guess. But yeah, but personally, it's quite simple. For me, and, and it's, and it's reading, it's listening to music as well. It's a big part of my journey of my, my kind of journey of being a better person is exploring other other music and letting the music in, rather than just leaving the music out. And, and that's something that I can do with my children as well. And, you know, I can share that. And that's, in many ways, kind of really helping our relationship as well, because they're growing through music. And, but then, but then, you know, you kind of have to ask yourself, you know, who am I and, I mean, who, who I was yesterday is different to who I am today. And who I'll be tomorrow, and that's just, that's totally, that's up to me, and it's up to my, my mindset at the time. Because if you think that your, your identity is fixed, then then you're missing out on so many other air like factors of your life that you don't know, existed. And so, I, that idea of identity is is kind of attached to the idea of self, you know, what is self what is, you know, it's just, I don't know, I feel like my my identity is who I am right now. And, and who I am right now, is someone that's, that's in a bit of a creative funk. And I'm okay with that. Because that's who I am right now. You can except, yeah, except that except that that's what it is. And if I, if I accept then if I was to be like, Oh, I should be this person, I should be this, you know, multi award winning bla bla bla bla bla, that's, that means nothing. Who I am right now is who I am right now. And so that, to me, is preserving my identity because I'm accepting my identity. All right, we're going deep. Oh, I love it. I kind of I need these conversations as well like because, you know, I do I do talk with friends about this stuff, you know, and it always makes me feel better at the end. So it's nice that we pressing record think the big takeaway from this for this, there's any, any fathers listening even mothers as well, is like communication is just key. And, and talking about the things that you really want to do. And then finding a way together, to be able to do them, you know, like, just being open, and communicating has just, it's just made it made made potentially sticky situations. really manageable. You know, and as I said, before, we've got so much help from from family that yeah, we're so lucky. We're very lucky. Very, very, very, very lucky. I'm eternally grateful for for the people that help us and help me actually it's mostly about me being able to realize not some of my artistic kind of, you know, dreams if you must. Yeah. So yeah, it takes it takes a village

Simone Wise South Australian visual artist S2 Ep55 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Simone Wise, a visual artist from Adelaide and mother of 2. Simone grew up surrounded by creativity, with 2 creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and she was never really bored as she was always making craft. She studied Art History and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her early to mid 30s that she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner , and interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism style, She is currently studying a Fine Art Course at Adelaide Central School of Art. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects, role modelling perseverance to her son through her art and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. **This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health*** The Robot painting Follow Simone on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Me today, it really does mean a lot. My guest this week is Simone wise. Simone is a visual artist from Adelaide in Australia, and is a mum of two. So mine grew up surrounded by creativity with two creative sisters and a creative mum. They went to the gallery a lot, and Simone was never really bored, as she was always making craft. She studied art history and considered that as a career path. It wasn't until her mid 30s That she took the plunge and went to art school. She was determined to practice and push through in the face of challenges. Simone is heavily influenced by Dutch still life of the 17th century and the works of Turner, and she's very interested in iconography and symbolism. She describes her artistic style as tonal realism. She is currently studying your fine art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. This episode contains discussion around stillbirth, grief and mental health. Today we chat about why we gather certain objects role modeling perseverance to her son through her heart, and how Simone's art helped her through the loss of her first son. Music you'll hear today is used with permission from LM Joe, Australian New Age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome to the podcast Simone. It's really lovely to meet you and have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Allison. I'm really excited to chat about all things creative and being a mom in the world today. It's a pleasure. So we're about to you, based you in Adelaide. Australia. Yep. Yeah, based in Adelaide. I'm born here lived in Queensland for a little bit but mostly been here. All my life. So yeah, yeah. Have you ever been down to make Gambia where I am? I have. Yes. And I've actually my little boy has been asking me to go to Mount Gambia for a while because he's got friends who have been so yeah, but no, I did love it down there. It's Yeah, lovely. Yeah. Don't come in winter. Just stay away. Okay, so yeah, yeah. Wait, did the sun comes back to Yeah. So your visual artists can you share what sort of style your art is? And yeah, okay. Well, I'm I'm two years into a three year Fine Art course at Adelaide Central School of Art. And I specifically chose that school because it has really strong grounding in I guess you'd say the traditional arts foundations. Not everyone who graduates from their works in you know, old fashioned sort of art, but it has a really good foundation in a drawing and painting. And so I guess you'd say I, my paintings have been described as photorealistic. But I don't really like that description to be honest. Because while there's a skill in photo realism, there's not much in terms of interpretation. So I like to think I painting like more of a tonal realist style. And I'm really informed by still life paintings from Dutch 17th century like that real tradition of, you know, like a black background with things like grapes and setups of grapes and lemons and Silver Goblets and things like that. I love the iconography and symbolism and drama, all of all of that. And so I'm very much drawn to really detailed paintings and really detailed drawings. Yes. So, do you work in? I'm gonna ask this question. Now. It's probably a question for later but I was looking on your Instagram, as I do with all my guests. I like to have a bit of a stalk before I do But you you were you painted in? It was oils, but it was on copper. Can you explain what the relevance of that is because I don't know anything about anything. I've done one painting on copper. And it was a bit of an experiment. And I was thrilled that it got chosen to be part of an Art Prize, because I wasn't sure how it would work out. But yeah, traditionally, it's something that's been done quite a lot. But it's been in centuries past that it's been painted, like the board hasn't been able to go through, you get a piece of copper and like etching copper, and you put some just sew something to create the ground and then you paint on it like any other surface, you can paint on. Lots of things. So yeah, I didn't, I don't think I'll get back to it because I found it a little too slippery. But I did love the warmth and depth that comes from the middle, underneath. So yeah, that's cool. Yeah, like I said, I don't know anything I've got, since I've been chatting to people. Through the podcast, I've discovered that I can actually do art, like I thought it had to be, like realism sort of stuff. Like it had to look like what it looks like. And because I couldn't do that, I was like, I can't do this. And then all of a sudden, I realized there's all these things you can do. Thing is amazing chord like people. I'm not trying to do a humble brag or anything. But people often say to me, like, Oh, you're so talented. And I don't actually think I'm that talented. I think I just have perseverance and sort of a bit obsessive sometimes. I think the school that I went to teaches you like really, like we learned the most boring painting triangles in black and white ages. And you know, you can't help but develop some skill. And if you're obsessed enough with something to stay up too early in the morning to get better at it, then you will so yeah, that's it, it really is a practice isn't it? It's not like you just wake up one day and you can all of a sudden do something, you actually have to learn the skills and and that's something else I didn't understand either. I just thought because my background singing I just thought you can sing or you can't sing like he can, you can do it or you can't and that's how I felt about drawing and painting until very recently. So I'm glad I've experienced it even when, like I'm at a point where I'm happy with my skill level. But there's still heaps more that I can learn about different techniques and different ways I can push myself conceptually so yeah, I can never ending process so when did you first get interested in art and creativity. I've always been interested in art and creativity. My mom's very creative. I'm one of three girls and we all are creative in our own ways I grew up going to the gallery a lot really loving art never really been bored because we were always making something out of papers, sticky tape. I guess I was always craft II I still entered still am I still do lots of crochet and sewing and things. But I never really trusted myself as an artist because like you said, like you were saying before you cannot you can't there are always people in school who were better drawers than me. I was interested in it. But I wasn't ever, like, didn't have that natural aptitude to be like amazing. So I I studied art history interested in getting into working in art. And I love to I love art history, but it didn't quite feel right enough for me to pursue that as a career too much. And it wasn't really until about my early to mid 30s that I took the plunge and went to art school and thought you know, what the hell. You know, if I if I want to do something, I'll usually do it properly. And so going to art school was my way of like, taking the plunge and seeing whether I could do it or not. So, yeah, yeah. And I've been through to discover that. You know, I, I can't it's just a matter of perseverance. So I was terrible, terrible at first and always one of the slowest in the class. So yeah, that didn't put you off. You're determined to do it. Yeah, there was a sort of bloody mindedness about me that I was just I wasn't gonna let it let it beat me. Good Anya, that's a great energy to hear. When you're talking about your art history, background, is that weird that sort of that love and appreciation of the symbolism sort of comes from? I think so. Yeah, I think the thing about my art history studies has taught me is that art is such a reflection of the world that you live in. And so, you know, you might look at a 17th century Dutch painting of a goblet and some grapes and think, oh, that's boring. I've seen that 100 times before, but it's actually of its time it had symbolism about, you know, life and death and wealth and prosperity and, you know, eternal life or, you know, greed or yeah, there's so much symbolism so much meaning to things. And I find it really fascinating to think about the context in which it was created. Yeah, I find that really fascinating, too. I had an interview with Dr. Melanie Cooper on one of my season ones, I love her. And I just opened my eyes to this whole world. And I was so fascinated by it, because I'm, I'm one of those people that I can't just watch a movie. And just, like, watch the movie, I have to see all the little hidden messages and in the, you know, the light and shade or wherever, where the actors is placed, and all this stuff, and it drives my sister nuts. Like, I can't just watch something and just shut up and watch it. So I found that really fascinating. And ever since then, I've sort of had this newfound appreciation for pieces of art, because they can't just be viewed on their own. Like, you can't just take them they have to be viewed within a context. She that's just reminded me of something that's completely random. Have you watched that Netflix show? It's called I think it's called inventing Anna. It's just come out. It's about that, that haven't I've seen teen girl. Yeah, she it's like this. She's a con woman. And she's really into art. And there's this one scene where they're in this art gallery, and I can't remember what the who the artist was. But she basically said, someone said, Oh, that's a really crap painting or whatever it was, it was a it was a photo of this art a lady with like a, I don't know, she had, you know how they used to put like handkerchiefs over their heads to stop that when they're in the cars or something. The hair going into it. Sorry, this is really random. It just reminded me. And so the person that was looking at it was all they were seeing was this lady with a thing overhead and just got in what's why is that amazing? And, and Anna in a, you know, calmness come out with this big story about how that was the first time a woman had stepped in front of the camera. And like a photographer, had made herself the subject and because of the era that it was in, and it was like a message about patriarchy and women's rights. And it was like, that just reminded me Sorry. No, no, no thing I love about art is that there's, it can just be a pretty picture or something that you'd like to look up. But there can also be so much to it. And I sort of get discouraged when people say sort of assume like art has to be just about skill. And I guess for me, I do have obvious skill in that I can paint. You know, if I would have been an apple, it would look like an apple when people would recognize it. And so they therefore think that my art is good art, whereas not necessarily, you know, and it's there's a sort of, I guess it might be a bit of a tall poppy thing, like people not wanting to push themselves or be confused by something challenged. And I think that that's the Australian way, isn't it? Like we've always got to we've got to cut down our tall poppies because they make everyone else feel in insignificant or incompetent. Or, you know, we've always got to try and level the playing field in some way, don't we? Yeah, it's horrifying that there is that tendency to feel. Yeah, I feel like you to feel discomfort about not knowing something instead of curiosity. Yeah, that's sorry. That is that's a really well put that's that's really well said. Yeah, so you paste that page on copper that we talked about before, was actually it was off the handle of cemetery. It's called handle of cemetery summer. And it was selected by the handoff Academy in the Adelaide Hills landscape arts prize. And that's pretty special. Yeah, I was thrilled, especially as I was saying before, it's the first time I painted on copper, and I saw that painting is a bit of an experiment. And I was also trying to push myself in that painting to leave things more unfinished. There's a tendency me to be a perfectionist and just paint everything to a fine detail. And that was quite inspired by an artist. Turner, and he has these beautiful paintings of weather and landscape that are just sort of half finished. They're just so coarse in some areas. And so I was just really trying to get get to that. Yeah, it's It actually reminds me of paintings that my Nana, not my Nana, sorry, my grandma had on her wall. She lived in clango, which is a little place near Mount Gambia. And just the color of the sky like that really burnt orange. I don't know I just when I looked at this, it just there's a I don't know there's a famous painting that used to be in her lounge. And it just came into my head. I thought gosh, Is that? I'm not saying it's the same, it's nowhere near the same. But that that color, that color just got me and I had that, you know that nostalgic Pang that you get. Then you go. Oh, yeah, yeah. So can you share with the listeners about the story about that? How that painting came to be? Yeah, well, I I specifically painted that painting and took the photograph that I painted that painting from with the Adelaide Hills landscape prize in mind. So that's why I was so stoked I got it. I guess like a lot of people I struggle with procrastination and fitting things in. So I will often choose an Art Prize and paint something for it. And whether or not I get it in is not the ultimate outcome. It's just to have something to do and to have a deadline. So and I don't do landscapes and but I thought I was quite interested to try. So I went for a drive up to hand off with my son one day and we had a lovely walk around. And I'm quite interested in cemeteries so may sound morbid taking your he was then four, I believe. Yeah. Taking a four year old to the cemetery. But um, yeah, I just love those. Love the area. And it's such a traditional old cemetery with so many old German names there. Yeah, yeah. Definite face for the eyes and lots of areas to paints. Yeah. Yeah, no, I can appreciate that interest in cemetery skill. I think it's, it's such a can obviously, it's a connection to the past. And often, like, we've got two cemeteries here, we've got like the new the newer one, and then we've got this really, really old one. And it's so nice to walk around and see. Like that. I don't know, it's just, it feels weird that you will somewhere with someone that that has was existed so many, like maybe 100 years before you, and you're at the same place at the same time with this person. Like it feels really unlikely. And there's one in the old kalangan Do you see reentry? In one of them? It doesn't even say this lady's name. It just says mother. And couldn't she even got a name on it? Like that one just really sticks in my mind. And I find that interesting to to see how people are remembered by other people the words they used to describe them and all that sort of stuff. I find that really fascinating. Yeah, for sure. Day. Now, you said there that you're not you don't usually do the landscapes? No. So what's your sort of? I mean, again, I've stalked you on Instagram. No, there was a picture that sorry. Yeah, a photo that you posted of painting that you've done of your son's robot that he made? Oh, yes. Which is always a beautiful picture. Like, it's just, I look at it. And I think like you could put your hand in and pick it up. Like it's just so it's really stick but without being, like I said before, like it's not an exact copy. It's got like, I don't know, it feels like it's looked through through a filter or a lens or something like an old. I don't know, rambling again. But I really liked that. So yeah, so share with us, what's the sort of things that you usually paint? What are you sort of influenced by mostly? Yeah, I usually paint objects. I don't generally tend to paint, paint or draw people and just not that I have anything against people who do or paintings that are of people are portraits, but I'm more interested in objects and what our objects say about us. So it's almost like I believe the objects that we find special to us are more of a portrait in some ways. And so that painting, it's lovely to hear that you love it, because that was very dear to me. It sold which was very flattering as well. It's amazing to think that someone wanted to pay money for that. So yeah, the I guess the story behind that one is my mum was looking after my son while I was at work, and my son is very, very into making and creating things too. And he just got it in his head that he had to make me a robot and he and my mom made it robot and he was just so his dear little face when he gave it to me. He was just so thrilled. And yeah, and I was yeah, it was just one of those lovely moments of being a mom where you're like your kids made you something really gorgeous and it's this really sweet and there was just a way to sort of capture that and I entered it into a Portrait Prize because um I see it as a portrait. Even though it's not a traditional portrait, it's almost like a double portrait because it's sort of triple portrait even because it's like, the title is me as a smart and pretty robot, which my son made a robot version of me being smart and pretty, which is what you'd want to be functioning well as well. And so he made it, and then I painted it. And so yeah, it was like a double, you know, his creativity, my creativity and our relationship. And so there are a lot of objects that have a real lot of meaning and tell a lot of story and I love I really like the ambiguity of painting something that might be a bit confusing, like, why would you paint? You know, I spent hours and hours and hours painting this particular thing and plunking it in the middle of something and making it look like this amazing, grand thing like they did with the, you know, Dutch still lives of these amazing goblets. You know, you can understand why paint something that was like beautiful fruit and silverware. But why would you paint some sort of cardboard thing? I quite liked the ambiguity of that. So yeah, that raises a real question. I think of like, what is valuable? And what, you know, just because something doesn't have a price tag. It's important to someone it has that value that that person places on it. Yeah, yeah, the sort of thing that you might grab, if they were a fire would not necessarily be the most money stuff at the most monetary things that are a link to another relationship. Yeah. Two things I want to ask you about this conversation. What did you send? Think about the fact that you then painted a picture of the robot? What was his impression of that? It's funny. He's very blase. Most kids who grew up their parents, whatever their parents is, like, oh, yeah, you know, you know, I asked him about the progress as I went on. I was like, What do you think about that color background? He's like, Yeah, it's good. Yeah. He was. Yeah, he was, I think it was he was quietly chuffed, but not amazingly. So just like yet. He was, he was annoyed when it got into the exhibition. And I haven't told him that it's sold yet he's forgotten about it. He sort of was a bit annoyed that it got in like, as if I hadn't consulted him. He's, I guess it was his intellectual property. So that's funny. Yeah. It's interesting, you say about objects that people might collect or be given, or you know, what they place their value on, I suppose. And you were saying how that can sometimes tell you more about someone than, you know, a portrait. Or maybe that's what I was thinking. Maybe they weren't your words, but I was thinking like, you can find out so much more about someone by looking at the things that they hold dearest. It's so interesting, because there's a friend of mine who is a watercolor artist, and Julia, Rita, hello, shout out to you. She collects when she goes on a walk, she collects pieces of nature. So it might be leaves, or gum nuts, or just anything that she finds. And she always posts on Instagram of the things that she's found. And I always find it so fascinating, because I'm like that with feathers, feathers. I always click those. And if there's an interesting leave, it's got to be very interesting. Yeah. And it's just like, why do we do this? Like, what are we, you know, this connection that we want to have to things surrounded by so many things and so many objects, which are the ones that stand out and become special? I just, I just find it really interesting. Yeah, so I was gonna ask you about your son. So he's, he's grown up. Like you said, he's a bit sort of blase, but the whole thing, because he's seen the paint he's grown up in, in the family of a painter and artist. Can you tell us a little bit more about him? Yeah, his name is Emmanuel. He's five started school this year. He's, he's lovely. He's amazing. He's He's very funny. Very energetic and hyper. He teaches me a lot about the world actually, he sort of I've often said he, he approaches everyone as if they're going to be fit be his friend. And mostly they are and I think that's a such a lovely way whereas I'm a lot more introverted and shy than him and it's just lovely to see him approach people with faith and excitement and enthusiasm and response. So yeah, that's, that's really interesting way you've described it, because it sounds like you're describing my child, but I haven't quite put the words together he seeks and he's the same he just now that you've said it in those words, it makes perfect sense. It's like he thinks everybody in the world is pretty ain't your friend like a kind person? And? Yeah, sort of thing. There's the time gonna come when you realize that's not really true. But for now it's lovely. Yes. There is that. Yeah. Yeah. Being five, he's very hyperactive and energetic. And yeah, it's an interesting age, he's learning to read and all that sort of things. So I think I'm getting to the point where I can sometimes have an hour off, or something to myself, but it's still very much that full on, you know, like food and drink. And this and that the whole time. Very demanding little things. Yeah. It's funny, because like, they grow up, and they're capable of more stuff. But it's like, the more capable they get. It's almost like the more they want you to do for them. Like, hi, like, right? They sort of revert and they want. Yeah, it's like, yeah, I want you to still be there every second. Yeah, exactly. You, you're actually a mother of two. Which I appreciate that. You feel comfortable talking about your son. Can you share with us about Louis? Yeah, so Emanuel has an older brother, Louis, who was born eight years ago. He died as a baby, he was. He was I was 39 weeks pregnant, about to set for an induction and I went to the doctors for the appointment ahead of that. And they were doing the ultrasound and couldn't find a heartbeat. And I was just really, like, what I felt the doctor was like, well, the baby's there. And it just hadn't occurred to me that anything would happen and, and so close to the birth. Yeah, so Louis was stillborn. Yeah, at 39 weeks. So that was, it was horrible, because not that it would necessarily be easier if you knew it was going to happen. But the idea that you could lose a child at that point, was just like, yeah, had not even occurred to me. And it just, I just couldn't quite comprehend it. So and when he was born, he was a perfectly formed, baby, like, he was my child, and he was beautiful. And he but he just wasn't alive. And it was just baffling. Like how it could happen. And yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting, you say that, I think there's so much emphasis placed on you know, the first three months, you know, those first 12 weeks, get through the first 12 weeks, and then no one ever talks about anything happening later on. And I think you're right, you just you just flow through and you just expected that that's what's going to happen. And so when it doesn't, it's just incredibly shocking and confusing. And yeah, yeah, it's almost like you breathe a sigh of relief after those first three months. And you can tell people and yeah, so yeah, it was it was horrible. And I think the fact that he was stillborn I didn't even get to see him breathe. I've always mourned. Well, I've known the whole thing, but I've definitely mourned. Not being able to tell him that I love him and see his eyes open. And so yeah, yeah, it's been um, you know? Yeah, it was was definitely the worst thing that happened. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry to mine. That's yeah. And thank you for sharing it too. I think, like a lot of things in, in this world. There's so much taboo stuff that we never talk about. Yeah. And I feel like the more conversations we have about that stuff, the more we're actually helping each other. He's you know, on this on this podcast before we've talked about miscarriages, stillbirths, we've talked about mental health issues, death of a parent grateful, that sort of stuff. And I think it's important not only for the people that are sharing it, to have a platform to be able to share it if they want. But people who might have experienced something like that, and haven't had anyone around them talk about it. You know, this might be the first time someone's heard someone else say that and think, oh, wow, I am allowed to talk about that or you know, and encourages people to reach out to other people and and get conversation started. Yeah, and you're very alone. I mean, I guess no one can ever be inside your head with you. But it is a particular type of grief because, you know, you might meet someone new, you might be in the shops and someone could just assume that you're fine. You know, it's one of those. I'm sure everyone going through grief feels like you know, you should have this big red splash on your face or something. Like, to show that things aren't fine and normal and it's with being a mum, and having had a child but not having the child to raise. It complicates things so much like, you know, you'll meet someone, you know, go to the hairdresser, and they'll say, Have you got any kids? And in the early days, I would say yes, because I, it pains me to say no, because it was a definite was like a denial of his existence. And then people would that would raise people be uncomfortable and not know what to say and be awkward. And these days, I'll I'll choose whether I say or not. And most times, I'll actually just say, I've got the one kid because I just don't feel the need to get into conversation with acquaintances. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my friends and family obviously all know about it. But I feel more comfortable not talking about Louis as much as I used to. I think in the early days, it was important for me to I was always angry it No, it wasn't almost, I was very angry. I felt angry that he wasn't there. I felt angry that people didn't know about him. And I Yeah, yeah. It's like, you wanted to tell them because it was, I guess, validating the fact that he actually did exist he, you know, yeah, that would feel like you weren't doing the right thing by him, I guess to say, you know, to acknowledges that he was there. Yeah. And people were well, meaning that there are some platitudes that come out. And people would say something like, Oh, he's, he's in heaven. Now he's with the angels or something that people don't say that about grown. People that have died, it's almost like because he was a baby wasn't, you know, he gets those throwaway little comments. It's almost like it's not valuing the life as much. Yeah, no, that's a good is a good point. So throughout that experience that you had, was there any place for your art there? Was that sort of, did you use that as a tool to heal? Or was it was it tucked away for a while? Like how did that sort of play out? Oh, actually played a huge role. And I feel like, without wanting to sound, you know, melodramatic, it made me the person that I am now and might be, not get over it, get the get through it. Because I'd been in art school while I was pregnant with Lewis and had teamed during the break. And then I went back to the next semester, art classes and, you know, family sort of question, like, Maybe you should take a break from art school. But I did take a little bit of a break from work, but it was important for me to go back to art school, and I really just became obsessed with painting then. And like I said, at first, I was terrible. But I, you know, not having a new baby, like, all my preparations had gone into having this new child to look after. And suddenly, there was a quiet house, and I was on maternity leave, and there was not a child to look after. So it was actually quite good to be able to, you know, I'd stay up to like three or four or five in the morning painting assignments, because I could, you know, it was a way for me to sort of do something that was doing something. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, it was, it was a way to, like hold on to something that I think at the time, I wouldn't even say I was enjoying the painting wasn't about enjoying, it was just about doing it, it was almost like a chore or a challenge or something. So in the early days, it was something to do to get better at it. And further on, it was like a way to something to hold on to something good in life, because it it's funny with with grief, you know, it's quite circular, and you can feel like, I think the worst time for me was about a year after it had happened, because I felt like by that point, I should possibly be pregnant again, and things should be back to normal and things should be fine. But in any in many ways, I think I'd had quite a naive optimistic view of the world and that view had gone down and a year later I just felt like life was just like, trudging through you know, it was all very gray and bleak and art was the one thing I could like make a decision to hold on to and make life good. Yeah, like in some ways, you know that that saying fake it till you make it like it was my thing to hold on to as something good in the world to get enthusiastic about even though I didn't feel enthusiastic I sort of gradually made myself force myself to be so yeah, yeah. So it was this is hate describing like this, but it was sort of like a form of therapy. I suppose. That helped you? Oh, definitely process and work through thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a my ex partner at the time Probably not fair on him to go into too much information about him, but seeing him NOT have a channel to express himself or spend time on doing anything productive, I saw that I was definitely the better off by having a way to spend my time improving on something I'm getting better at it. Yeah. And I think yeah, for yourself to, to feel productive and feel like, you know, there's, there's something like said there's something good in the world. And it might have also been like, a consistent thing that you knew, was probably, you know, it was up to you whether it was there. It wasn't, so it was gonna be there as long as you wanted it to, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And I think being in art school at the time I had, you know, there was deadlines, things had to be done on a certain time. So, yeah, there was. Yeah, it was definitely a type of therapy. Yeah. I think I think sometimes when the world feels a bit bleak, I've had my own mental health, not so much postnatal depression, but other types of mental health issues. Art is a good way to sort of keep busy doing something that feels worthwhile. Yeah, absolutely. As a mother, have you noticed that what you're influenced by has changed, or the way that you look at things have has changed in terms of your art? Yeah, yeah, I would say that. Um, I mean, I was still in the early days of my artists being an artist before I became a mom. But since then, I've found it's yeah, definitely informs my art and the way I see things, because everything that happened with my first son, and my second son, you sort of realize what's important in life and what sort of things are meaningful, and you look for meaning how you can display that meaning visually, so yeah. Yeah, nice. And that's something I, I like about my own art, which sounds a bit vague. I like that, um, I've got the skill to show something, you know how it is, I can paint something and people can appreciate like, Oh, that's a painting of a, whatever it is. And leave it at that. But then there is also that other element, like, for example, the robot painting we were talking about before, you could look at that and say, Oh, it's a child's piece of craft, but then there is also that further element. Like the layering that you get. Oh, yeah, it's so fascinating. I really wish I had gotten done this earlier in my life. Really? I mean, I know I'm only 40 but after long hopefully I've got a long time to do this stuff is so interesting. I just love it. Well, I'm 42 I turned 40 A couple of weeks ago and um, yeah, I guess I'm, I'm encouraged by there are a lot of artists, female artists who are going strong into their older years or even like fully come into themselves as artists later on. So while I do get frustrated that I don't have the time to dedicate that I would like I still feel like I've got the foundations of skills and who knows what will happen in the future I might have more time to push things further Yeah. Two really interesting topics I like to talk to all of my guests about is mum guilt and identity so we'll launch into monk your first because that's always a bit of fun. It's everyone's concept of Aries is different in which I love to to say interesting. What's your take on mum guilt? What's your thoughts around that? I'm, I've been thinking about that since you asked me for the interview and I'm undecided about mum guilt because I feel like it definitely exists. I do feel guilty about things whether or not that guilt is fair on myself or other people well I think it comes from wanting to do the best you can by the by your child and feeling like you're perhaps letting them down. So I do believe in mum guilt that way, but then I also feel like perhaps or maybe I'm just I'm just lucky and privileged in that I haven't felt as judged from people. It's the people I surround myself with. supportive of the things I do so I don't feel that sense of mom guilt socially. If you're not, I mean like I, I work and my son's in child in school and childcare, but OSH if if things could be different they would be but I don't feel guilty about the fact that I am not a traditional mum, and that we don't, you know, bake together very often or do a lot of things I'd like I say, while I do feel regret that there's not as much time together as I would like, I don't feel guilty about that, because that's where we live in. You know, it's if I were not working, then there'd be other problems that we'd have. Yeah. Sorry. Yes, I'm undecided. I definitely do feel guilty mom guilt about not doing everything and definitely times when I haven't done my best as a mom and being a single mom. There are times when I'm just so exhausted. And I've completely I've got nothing left. And I know that at times I could have done better and I lose it a bit and I do feel guilt then, but I wouldn't describe that as your what most people might call mum guilt i i describe that more as just like, general, you know, feeling like I did a shit job of parenting that. Yeah, hats off to you. By the way, anyone that's out there as a single moms listing. I've got so much respect for you guys. Man. Well, I'm lucky compared to some of my friends who are doing it all alone. I do have a you know, my son still got a great dad who's a big part of his life. So I don't have my son 100% of the time. So I do get time to you know, have a bit of mental space and not Yeah, so I think it would be much harder if you're that the sole custody parent for sure. Oh, yeah. I don't know how he's doing honestly. I'm just really weak and pathetic. You get surprised by what you're capable of. I never intended to be a single parent. It was not what you know. I went into a marriage and motherhood thinking but it is what it happened. Did you know it happened and managed somehow whether or not undoing all right I assume I am. I think I am still alive and healthy and a nice person. Yeah. Yeah, he's still out there making these friends with everyone. So you know he you know you're doing a good job yeah, this concept of identity that when when you're a mom, you just you don't want to say you're just a mom, because we're never just a mom. That's not the the right words, but you can be so much more than the mothering role, I suppose. What What's your thoughts on that as well? Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I do see myself as as a mom as a huge part of my identity. Especially I think having feeling like angry and bitter that my first son was taken away from me. I've held on to that identity of myself as a mother quite strongly like yes, I Yeah, definitely. That's a big part of my identity. Almost like the core really like is when you have a child, they're sort of even if they're not physically with you, they're there somewhere else. People I've heard all sorts of cheesy phrases like having a child is like having your heart out in the world or something that there is a trick to that in that you there's always a part of you that you're thinking about them and hoping they're okay and yeah, it's not the only part of me but it's it's the major part of me you know, I think being an artist and my job and my family and friends form a part of that as well but yeah, it's definitely sort of feels like the central part of my identity especially in this stage of my son's life where that five he still very much needs me a lot and it's quite physical you know, a lot of cuddles and other physical things cleaning up getting food and that seems to be the biggest thing and I they're always want something that feeds things to be excited come on you how much you eat. Oh my God. It's not seasonal. So I've got two boys and it's like my oldest ones because he 14 now and he'll the years he's been eating the same amount of tea is my husband think they'd like sticks. There's nothing off them. It's insane. Yeah, really? Yeah. Always growing boys. No Are you? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman is it important to you to continue to have your own interests? Outside of being a mum? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think having my own interests outside of being a mum, I feel like is a good part of being a mum. Without wanting to speak ill of my own mum, I think growing up in a very creative family and she was very creative and loved doing art, but she didn't pursue it outside of, you know, craft things for herself. And not that everything has to be pursued to a high level, but it did seem to me as a, something that she could have pursued and didn't different times different means that sort of thing. But um, yeah, I think my son, he's definitely interested in my art. And he gets to see that and something that I really, really, really want him to grow up with is a sense of perseverance. And the idea that if you want something, you have to try really hard to make it happen. And I think he's in in a small way, my art shows in that because he sees something from a small, you know, nothing Canvas to become something that I choose it to be, and he sees me spending a lot of time on it. So the idea of time, putting time into something and sticking to it, not that instant gratification. Yeah, and the idea that if, if you want to be good at something you can be, but you just have to try. So I do talk about even though I'm not studying, right at the moment, I do talk about art school, and how you can get, you can learn things and get better at them with practice. And so that idea of practice I talk to him a lot about and I think it's, it's an interesting thing as well, art, like there's so much so much art that you can go and take kids to, and it's something that we really do a lot together of so it's a big part of our lives together. And I think he's, we go to a lot of gallery openings and things together. And so yeah, in a way, it is a part of my identity as a mother with the art and having that it's important because it informs me as a mother to him, but it's also good for him to see me pushing myself, I think in spending my time doing something that I'm interested in, because not that there's anything wrong with sitting in binging TV show. I've, I've definitely done that. But I think in life, you'd want to have, you know, big things that you go after. And I think it's good for him to see that. Yeah, I love that. Because it reminds me of this, this saying what society says to kids that are you can be anything you want to be. But then it doesn't follow up with if you work really, really hard at it and persevere at it. You know, it's I think sometimes kids can have this sense of entitlement, I can be whatever I want, you know. And also that, that idea that that two things you said then sort of got me going this, this way that society is seems to be going about, everything's got to be supplied in an instant, you know, like this, I want something so I'm going to order it and get it in two days, or I've broken something that I'm not going to repair it because it's cost more to repair than to buy a new one and this instant gratification. Like I don't know, that I think for him to be able to get that understanding that, you know, a painting does not just appear on the wall of the gallery. There's, you know, all these hours and efforts and decisions to be made and all the stuff that goes into making that pace. I think that's a really valuable thing to teach your child. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's a very peaceful activity. So I don't paint a lot when he's around because occasionally he'll see me painting and all who see the progress is quite slow. And I think that peacefulness is something that's missing in life. So a lot for me It plays. So the sense of something being slow and peaceful, certainly doesn't hurt. Yeah, I spoke to a, an artist the other day who was a posture, like did this do clay took the clay out the earth, made it into shapes into whatever. And then you have to take a really long time for to fire it, you can't just put it in and expect it to be done in, you know, five minutes because it will actually wreck it and exploded, you know, everything takes time. And we're talking about how you know that. That forces her to slow down, it forces it to take time and to be patient and to appreciate the process. And you know, there's just Yeah, and she also makes mistake Mercedes she's going to be here episode will be out soon. I actually know her episode would have been on by the time yours comes out. Sorry. I'm getting okay. Okay, Visa the timeline. But yeah, she made ink out of acorns, some like, and then she was making charcoal out of like, vines, sticks of like vines, putting them in little tin and putting them in the fire. And, you know, filling up the tin and drawing with each other. It's like, we don't do that anymore. We just go and order stuff. And it arrives and no one knows what happened. It's just getting back in touch with the earth. And I don't know, we're getting away from that stuff. And that raises an important idea about when you're creative, like the process of it, like, it's good to have something to show at the end. And I wouldn't paint if you know, everything I painted, got chucked in the bin at the end of the night. But the process is really meaningful is really important as well, like, for me the mixing of the color colors that I need and the application. It's something that's real, it feels really vital to me like the process of going through painting, you know, if I could, if I could speed up my process, I don't think I would, because I really enjoy the whole. I'm very slow and take a long time. But I really enjoy every aspect of it and the different phases of a painting. Yeah, yeah. And again, yeah, it's not all about the end product. It's yeah, I like that do you mainly paint in oils or do acrylic painting as well? I don't paint with acrylic. I don't really have any acrylic paint. Aside from like, I'll start. I won't ever start with a white surface. So I'll start with them easily Burnt Umber I'll do in acrylic, just because it's cheaper to cover a board in acrylic than oil dries quicker as well, which is good. But um, no, I just really love the way that oil, you can sort of push and pull it in. It's so pliable and it takes longer to dry, so you feel less pressure to get it perfect. I do some I do do a little bit of watercolor here and there. Like if I'll do a little sketch or something like that I'll do some watercolors are from sort of autism instant gratification. You know, I'll work with watercolor, but I like watercolor has a sort of you don't really know exactly how it's going to turn out. I mean, you do but I get what you mean. Yeah, yeah, if you go with that unexpected side, you can get some really beautiful stuff. And I've I don't know enough about acrylic, and I haven't painted in it enough to either be able to control it or enjoy that unexpected element that I enjoy from watercolor. Yeah, I guess it depends what you can, what results you want. And I don't I don't think I could get what I want with acrylics. Whereas if I were painting something different and what after a different look. And if I could get that from acrylics I'm, I'm sure I would because it would be cheaper and easier to clean up. Paintings are a real pain in the bum. You know, at the end of the night when you finished having to clean your brushes. Yeah. You can't just do what I do and just leave it in the water till the next day or longer. Think got any sort of things that you're working on at the moment, like any particular sort of train of thought for your work or anything coming up, like entering competitions or anything like that? Yeah, I hate to say it but I've had a bit of a lull at the moment. I've had a lot going on On family wise, with my dad being in hospital now, and my son starting school, so I feel like this whole year has been quite overwhelming to begin with. So I haven't done a lot of art. I've done a lot of crafts that sort of like my comfort blanket, a bit of crochet. But I've always been in that space of time, I've been going to galleries and looking through art books. So it's always been a part of my life. And I've just been doing more practical things like getting boards ready, because I love to paint on linen on board. So I've been doing things like getting some wooden boards ready for painting for when I'm ready. And I've taken photographs of things because I work from photographs, and I have started a painting, which is sitting up on the kitchen table now. So it feels good to have something out and ready. So yeah, yeah, I sort of had a bit of a flurry towards the end of last year. And I think yeah, that's from working. Not quite full time. But you know, four days a week and having I have to be really self disciplined to do art, and I haven't been that soft. So yeah, but I've, I'm working on a painting at the moment with no, not for any particular competition or anything, but just a lot of things. The work I do can fit slot into competitions. So when it's done, so yeah, I'm actually painting seafood. At the moment, I did a painting of an oyster a year or two ago, and I loved it. And it's a Sargent painting of squeed that I just adore. And it's a lot I'm really attracted to the sort of disgustingness and the beauty of it at the same time. Yeah. So I'm doing a painting of a oyster and a crab and just the sort of the beauty of these, and also the repellent nature of these things as well. That's an interesting juxtaposition, isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing about still life painting as you can, what you choose to paint, obviously, you're putting it at the forefront and making people pay attention to this thing. And, yeah, what you choose to paint can be interesting. When you go to art shows, do they have like an explanation of what they're trying to say in in it? Or is that do you? Is it up to the viewer to work to make what they want from it? Yes or no? Yeah, there's often sometimes you go to an exhibition, and it'll just be the title and the medium. And that's all there is other times you'll go to an exhibition. And there'll be a catalogue essay that you can read, which is definitely worth reading, because that is generally written by someone other than the artists, but they'll have had a good conversation with the artist and really understand their concepts. So yeah. And then sometimes if you go, like, for example, at the art gallery, they'll put a small blurb around things, explaining them a little more. So yeah, I think I really do appreciate those catalog essays and the descriptions of them as long as they're written in plain English. And I think with a lot of professions, there's jargon, but there is a real history in writing things more complicated than they need to be. I find it really disheartening, when you'll, I'll go to an exhibition and I love it, and I buy the catalog or take the free catalog and read the essay, and it would just be like, feel really dense. And it just, it's almost like someone's trying to prove that they went to uni. And yeah, it's really alienating, like, creates that boundary between the clever person and the Navy's reading. For sure. And I mean, it's good to be challenged and to find things that you don't know about and try and learn about them. But I think in the writing of it, you need to be out, you can still write beautifully. And write in a way that's easy to understand. Yeah, I had an artist on from Ireland few months ago, and she said the same thing. She said, she said, there's all these blank speak. She tries to stay out of it. Yeah. And I feel like I know it. I can. I can speak that language because I've been school, but I feel like you have to have been to art school to be able to understand something. So yeah, it's an it's interesting, like, maybe that's why, I don't know people gets I sort of liken it to when you go wine tasting, and they'll talk in this special language of I've got I can spell tones of this and notes of that and you just think it's just why like it's just, you know, it's like why, you know, this world has to have The special thing and I like sit in alienates people. And then like, normal everyday people are so off put from, you know, entering this world because they feel so dumb, like, you know, like if you could if going to using the art analogy if people could describe it, like, describe it better and say when I taste this makes me feel this or that or something in a way that was more engaging and not like, made you feel stupid for not getting the exact same thing when you took that see if you know if Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? It's like this elitist. I wonder if that comes from. I'm gonna draw a very long bow here. Because when I spoke to Melanie, that all this stuff about patriarchy came up about how women have always been excluded from art. You know, traditionally, the women did the arts and crafts, like the craft stuff, and that was like, the crap stuff that wasn't valued by the Yeah, like things like waving that was just a correct Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, is that is all that weird talking language world been created by men to try and keep women out of it? Because they can talk in this fancy way. But women wouldn't understand it. Yeah, that's sort of that. Yeah, I think it's dangerous for any field, to spend, to not be open up to new voices and ideas, I think you can be quite, you can become quite insular in any field. And now mean, if you're talking, or your friends know what you're talking about, or your friends and colleagues, you're talking about, you're talking the same way, then it's all going to start sounding the same and becoming some little in, in joke. And, you know, if other people aren't open to that, then it becomes a bit closed off, doesn't it? Yeah. Did you ever paint with other people, or you always paint by yourself? Yeah, I do always paint by myself, I would love the idea of painting with other people. And I love the idea of having a studio space and being able to bounce ideas off other people. And just sharing the space because you are, it is a very solo practice painting and drawing. So I really love the idea of having a studio and one day I would love to but just at the moment. With work and finances and things, it's just not something that I can do. So I sort of artists, something that I more just grab where I can whereas I think you have a studio, you're paying to rent that space, you sort of want to make the most of it. And I mean, I was sort of hoping once my son went to school, I have Friday's off but hasn't worked out yet, but I think yeah, I'm definitely loved the idea of a studio but um, at the moment it's more just you know what I can get done at home and I'm lucky in that the medium that I love painting and drawing I can do from home I can. I've got a very small place I live in a unit and my artists spread out all over the table at the moment I can do that at home other artists, I guess need that studio space because it's the work that they do isn't practical or feasible to do at home. So yeah, yeah. Before when you're talking about your mom, did that experience of watching her not pursue? Perhaps what she might have been able to do? Did that make you want to do it more? Was that sort of a driving thing? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Because, I mean, it may sound melodramatic. People talk about things on your deathbed that you would regret. But it would definitely be something if I got to old age and hadn't become an artist. I would definitely regret that because even though I didn't know that I had the potential, what I mean, I was interested in art and I suspected I could become an artist but I was so unsure of myself for so long. I wasn't sure if I have the ideas and be able to develop the skill. But I think not pursuing that I would have been disappointed in myself. Yeah, and I just I think I'm sound sounding very melodramatic again. But I think life is quite boring a lot of the time. Like, there's so much drudgery and so much routine, that you just really, really need a I mean, relationships make life worthwhile, but you also really, really need a big, huge ongoing project to be able to, to get excited about otherwise. Yeah. You know, like, the days yeah, that's it. There's everything said repetitive it just flies by before you've even realized. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That Is that is good. We should all live like that. Yeah, I'm saying that sounding Oh, you know, Oprah Winfrey, but not that I haven't been doing much at all. But it's been in my mind. So yeah, see, that's the thing. It makes you see the world a different way. Like I imagined yourself being a musician, you would hear things and think of that. Think of things differently. Whereas I'll look at certain colors or compositions, and it'll get me excited about things or make me think about things a certain way. So it's something that you always carry with you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you, sir. Right. It's been a real pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for having me, Alison. I really loved talking about, about everything we talked about tonight. It's been all very deep and meaningful. And, yeah, it's good to talk about the things that are important in life, like art and family because, yeah, it really is what makes life worthwhile. So yeah, to have the chance to articulate all the thoughts in my head. Listen to them. Thanks for sharing. It's been really nice. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Jo Maloney Australian singer, songwriter and musician S3 Ep94 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My final guest for Season 3 is Jo Maloney, a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne Victoria, and a mum of 3 boys. As a child she saw any raised platform as a stage, and would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu, it was the moment Jo knew she wanted to be a singer. Jo has enjoyed an extensive voice career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After 9 years of gigging the pub and corporate scene she relocated to London where eventually she found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn’t until she moved to Melbourne in 2012 after 10 years in London with 3 kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 that she decided that she wanted to try her luck at writing her own music. It’s only been in the last 4 years-just before Cover and now that her 3 children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort. Under the guise of Dragnfly Industri, her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop- infused instrumentals, Jo released her debut single Ghost last year, it reflected Jo's life of once believing that dreams are risky and unattainable and only for the lucky few, to realising that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and a core fanbase alike, winning the Real Songwriters of Melbourne Community Award, as well as earning a Top 5 spot in RSOM’s song of the year. 2023 will see Jo continue to embrace her development, set to release a self-produced debut EP in late 2023 as well as a slew of new singles. Jo exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions, find your legacy and live your purpose every day. Jo - Instagram / Music Podcast - instagram / website Jo's music used with permission. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It is such a pleasure to have you here from wherever you're listening all around the world. My guest this week is Joe Maloney. Joe is a singer, songwriter and musician from Melbourne, Victoria in Australia, and she's a mom of three boys. As a child, Joe saw any race platform as an opportunity to perform. It was his stage, and she would love belting out a song or two for anyone who was around. On seeing Olivia Newton John in the movie Xanadu. Joe knew it was the moment that she wanted to be a singer. Joe has enjoyed an extensive vocal career that started when she competed in local talent quests from the age of 10 singing country music and anything on a backing track that she could get her teenage hands on before moving to Sydney. After nine years successfully gigging the pub and corporate scene in a covers band, she relocated to London, where she eventually found work in a number of cover bands on a full time basis. This also took her in the direction of band management for a number of years. It wasn't until Joe moved to Melbourne in 2012, after 10 years in London, with three kids in tow, that motherhood really took over and became all consuming. It was when she turned 40 That she decided that she wanted to try a look at writing her own music after being inspired as a 14 year old. By a 16 year old Debbie Gibson song lost in your eyes. It's only been in the last four years just before COVID And now that her three children are older, that she really has decided to become accountable to herself and her dreams and put in 100% effort under the guise of dragonfly industry. Her music weaves together creativity, thoughtful lyricism and eclectic pop infused instrumentals, Joe released her debut single ghost last year. It reflected Joe's life of once believing that dreams are risky, and unattainable, and only for the lucky few to realizing that they can come true. The track gained attention from industry and core fanbase alike, winning the real songwriters of Melbourne community Award, as well as earning a top five spot in the real songwriters of Melbourne Song of the Year. 2023 We'll see Joe continue to embrace her development. She's set to release a self produced debut EP in late 2023, as well as a slew of new singles. Joe exudes the philosophy that it's never too late to explore your passions. Find your legacy, and live your purpose every day. Throughout this episode, you'll hear Joe's music. I hope you enjoy today's episode. It's the final episode in Season Three of the podcast I know you walking through wilderness feeling lost on the ground, darkened scaly is a fever in chest cause you always thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's such a pleasure to meet you and put a face to the to the voice. Thanks for having me. It's wonderful to be here Allison. Yeah, it's lovely. And your whereabouts are you in Australia? So I'm based in Melbourne? Yep. I just outside of Melbourne. Yeah, in Larabee. So I guess it's western suburbs. So yeah. My nana used to live in hoppers crossing. Okay. Yeah, there we go. How long have you been in? Where before? I only eight years. I'm not originally from Melbourne. I'm actually, I've kind of been all over really. But I guess I spent most of my childhood up in New South Wales, just south of Port Macquarie. Oh, beautiful. Yeah, really, really lovely spot. My mum and dad is still up there. And it's yeah, it's it's beautiful to go home. I wouldn't say to home, I've lived there for a long time. But it's beautiful to go and see them and have a holiday as well, because it's right by the beach. And so I've only been I've been in Melbourne for 10 years, but I've been in wherever for eight. Yeah, yeah. But isn't Port Macquarie, like the place in Australia that has the most number of like really good weather days or something? Is that salutely No idea. Someone told me that once because we're I mean, Matt Gambia and the weather is just fair. I mean, you'd be familiar with that being in Melbourne. It's pretty Yeah. Yeah. And I remember watching one day about the weather. And they said, I'm sure they said Portland quarry had like, because I said, I just want it to be like 25 degrees with sunshine. Like, is that too much to ask? And they're like, Yeah, I know. I don't think it's quite like that up there. Certainly not. Now. I think they get very, very hot and humid up there. Now. I think it's definitely a lot more humid than what it used to be when I was living there. So it might it may have been like that once upon a time. Tell me about your music. You are a musician, a singer songwriter? How did you first get into music? When do you have this moment of like recalling when you sort of first discovered music? Ah, I remember always being a show off. Right from sort of being kind of like three, four years old. I loved being the center of attention. And I think a lot to do with the fact that not only was I the oldest child, but I was the oldest grandchild on both sides of the family. Yeah. The distinct memory I really have is, every time I saw like a raised platform, I was singing, whether it be my grandparents balcony, or the front veranda of their house. So I can remember being in a shopping center and like seeing sticks somewhere. And I'd be on the steps thinking my little heart out because it felt like a page. And I don't think it was like, watch me, this is what I can do. It was just something that I gravitated towards. When I saw the movie Xanadu. That was the moment that it it clicked for me that I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I want to sing I want to I want to just be this person that just sings and is beautiful and and I was obsessed with that movie for such a long time growing Yeah, absolutely obsessed. My, my whole family would still tell me to this day, how long I would spend swinging on a swing, singing Xanadu hours. The first time I think I felt like I really wanted to be a songwriter was when I was about 14 I think back in the late 80s. And there was a 14 year old singer songwriter named no she was 16 Sorry, Debbie Gibson. Oh yeah. And I fell in love with her song lost in your eyes. And I thought, Ah, I would love to play the piano and sing like that. And so I tried to emulate that for a few few years. And then I think I just got too nervous with writing and just fear of judgment. And so I just decided I was just going to be a singer. And I actually put away the songwriting for a really really long time and only identified as a vocalist. So it's only really been actually in the last three or four years that I've started who want more and think actually, I think there's more in me than just being a singer. And that was when I actually started to really take some writing seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can totally relate to what you're saying, like completely. You it's like, I don't know, like, it's almost like life's happening around you, like you have your kids and you're growing up, and there's all this other stuff happening. And it's like, you sort of have forget that you have these skills almost, excuse me, that you actually used to write when you're a kid, and then all of a sudden go, why am I doing that anymore? You know? Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, because it comes writing comes from somewhere else. And singing and performing is such an outer thing. It's what's on the outside writing is what is on the inside. And it's learning. For me, it was learning to tap into that, because I had spent such a long time living outside of myself. And so that's been a whole new experience for me, which has been really, really exciting just to find my dip. With it all. And I still don't feel like I've quite gotten there yet. I think. I mean, no one really ever gets to that destination, do they? Where they're like, right? Yes. I've got it all figured out. Yeah. But that in itself is pretty exciting, isn't it that you've, you're on this journey. And I'll make for one of the better word. If one uses that with you. And you're like, you're learning these things about yourself. And you're discovering more and more and you know, like, from what you're just saying there, you know, there's more there. And that's pretty exciting. Isn't that? Absolutely. Yeah, it is it is. It's like going on an adventure. Yeah. And I try and use the word Safari because it can get pretty wild in there. That's a cool analogy. Dude. Cuz, yeah, stop, stop, stop. Stop, stop. Stop with the music that you're writing. Now, what's your sort of, I guess your inspiration coming from? Um, I think a lot of it is. From music theater, I've realized. I listen to a lot of music theater and a lot of power vocalists as a teenager as well. And I think I, at this point in time in my life, I think I try and write like that. Even though I don't feel like I have that kind of voice. It's just I suppose it makes it easy for me to concoct a story in my head and visualize what I'm trying to write about. So, yeah, I like to sort of think of it now as being a bit more music theory or music theater oriented. Yeah, quite dramatic. I think I have a bit of a dramatic voice very dynamic. So I tend to like to have lots of dynamics in my songs with lots of little quiet bits, and then really sort of loud. Yes. And, yes, so at this point in time, that's, that's the influence for me. And it took a little while for me to realize that because I was just writing, I was just writing what I was hearing in my head and not really attaching any label to what or any genre. And now the more I think about it, that's where it comes from, I think, yeah, cool. So I think that's the awesome thing about writing your own songs, you can pick where you want the key to B, you can pick the range, and like you said, you can really like accentuate those like really exciting parts of your voice like using the dynamics that's something I've think's really cool even though it I think, clicked into right most of my songs in the same key are so many people do and I I sometimes do as well. I think it just kind of puts because as being vocalist, you know where your voice naturally said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it is it's a lot. It's really easy to fall into that trap of oh, just writing in D major. I know it sounds good. Yeah, that's pretty. Good sled down with a young Do you have a day job or is music, everything that you do in your life? Music, I'm very, I'm very, very fortunate that aside from mothering music is the other thing in my life, my husband, and has been insanely supportive of me focusing on music. Because he knows that's what makes me happy. And I, he, he actually wouldn't want me to, to go and do another job. Because every time I come to him and say, Hey, I've been offered this and I and he'll be just like, is that really it? Are you gonna have time? Like volunteering for my kids basketball, like to be the manager of my kids basketball team. And, like, seriously, it's not going to take that long and not take that much time out of my week. So he does get very quite protective of my music. Fear, I suppose you could say so yeah, I'm really, really fortunate that music is is the be all and end all for me, which is great. No hobby at this point in time. But I have I have done some gigs and earn a little bit of money from it, which has been nice. So it's just building on that. Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing, isn't it? It's a it is a constant. Like you said, it's a safari, it's like it's an adventure. So tell me about your kids. How many kids have you got? I've got three boys. One wants to remain nameless. So I have Max who just turned 13. Last week this week. And I've got twin boys. So Zach, and twin one. And they are 11. So three boys. Yeah. And a set of twins in there. Like that's pretty cool. in there as well. Yeah. So for a little while. I had three and a two for about six weeks. Straight. Oh, man. Yeah. Thankfully, for that whole time. We were over in London at the moment that at that point in time, the kids were all born over there. Were in hospital for three weeks, my husband had the luxury of working for himself and was able to take time off to be with Max while I had to go into the hospital every day. And then my parents actually flew over for six weeks as well. So I think really for the and then my husband was able to take some more time off work. So for the first three months of the life, I had help around me, which was amazing. And then everyone's life just kind of went back on track. And I was at home with three little ones. I can ask a question. So you had you had the twins, after you already had one child? Is it better or worse? Because some people have said this. It's better like their grandpa had twins first because I didn't know what they're in for. Is it better or not worse? Because you know what I mean? But what was the perspective? Yeah. For me, obviously, I can only go by my experience. For me. I am glad that I had the twin second. Because I felt like Max was a really tricky baby. I felt like he never really settled properly for the first six months anyway. And you know what it's like when you're a first time mom, and the moment they're crying, you're thinking, what's wrong? What what do I need to do? Yeah, when I had the twins, I had no choice sometimes, but to leave one of them to cry. I be kinda you know what, you're fine. I'm sort of elbow deep in your brother's nappy at the moment. And I felt it was more about micromanaging the three of them. Yeah, right. More than anything else, but in terms of them as babies and me as a mother and then being second. I feel very fortunate that they were actually second because I felt a lot calmer and a lot more confident as a mum. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I yeah, I don't I honestly having I do remember one night and I tell this this story a lot to people where I think one of the twins had been crying maybe for two hours, they just wouldn't settle. And just as he settled, his brother decided to kick off. And so when you think oh, great, awesome, you're about to go to sleep. That's great. It's midnight. Okay. Yeah, I can go to bed and the other one kicks off and, and I remember being upstairs and, and they were still in like my baskets. Picking up the basket, trudging downstairs to my husband, who was feeding the other twin who'd settled and just been saying to him, I am so sick and tired of crying babies. I'm just sick of it. And there were definitely moments like that where I just thought it's just too much the feeding I at night time. I remember not doing as the books telling you to do where if you feed one child, one twin wake the other one up to feed. I remember just thinking, oh my god, I'm so tired. The moment you fall asleep, I'm gonna go back to bed but which was so stupid, because half an hour later, the other ones woken up anyways. So I've never ever noticed sleep deprivation like that i So even as unsettled as Max was as a baby. I certainly didn't have the sleep deprivation with him like I did with Zach. I couldn't talk. I couldn't. I couldn't string a sentence together. I was just that tired. And that was yeah, that was pretty tough. Even with help for the first few months. Yeah, gosh, it's full on. Yeah, yeah. That's it. And also managing, as I said, managing the three of them. I did a lot of reading about that. Before that came along. And you have absolutely no control on managing your children. When you're out and about we look like an absolute circus. Walking around. It was just me and this wall of children I had, I'd usually have Max and Zach in the stroller. And I'd had because he was really tiny when he was born I'd had strapped to me. So it'd be like baby on my chest. Two little ones in front of me and just walking. And it wasn't a like a front and back pram. It was a side by side. Yeah. Yeah, I was literally a circus everywhere I went. And so people would often stop me obviously, as they do they see twins, or I'd have both twins in the stroller and Max, I'd be holding my hand, people would gravitate to the twins. And it's initially and oh twins and Lincoln, Irene, which is fine. But inevitably they score. How old are they and books but always say that this is going to happen. And to always include your oldest child first in the conversation and say, Well, I have max here. He's too Zakka. Whoever meant sold, they were but again, people would then say to max, oh, you're a fake brother, Aren't you lucky, you've got twin brothers. And he's not stupid. He wasn't stupid back then. And he knew immediately that this conversation is still about them. And it's about me. So for that first kind of 12 to 18 months for Max was very difficult as well, because he just hated being stopped. He got to a point where I'd pick him up and he'd be grabbing my face. And he'd be saying, Go, go, go, go now go because he just hated it. Yeah, totally understandable, because I left out and what what can you do as a mother in that situation when other people's actions are beyond you? And that's it. You're trying your best, you know, you're saying, you know, you're including him, but people are just still when, you know, twin land and all lost in our heads. And yeah, that's one isn't it for a little filler like that? Yeah, yes. He has he recovered from that, or does he still feel? Yeah, right. Now, yeah, he not that he would understand just yet but I think there is a lot of trauma in him. He doesn't he he, he really sometimes is quite venomous to to one of the twins in particular. And he, I mean, look, he's a teenager now and he's going through teenage angsty sort of stuff. Very like me. I'm in terms of trying to be the black sheep of the family, which he is. And that's fine. But I do sense that a lot of his actions and a lot of what he says is some very deep trauma that, like I said, he doesn't even know exists yet. And also to, I think, I obviously was doing my very best to cope. But I was tired, I was tired. And so when I had Max in bed and wanting me to stay in cuddle him, all I could think of was, I need some time out. I, you're in bed now. And I need to walk away and just be me for a couple of hours before I go to bed. And I look back on that now and I feel terrible. But but the thing you got to look after yourself, don't you? Well, you can't look after anybody say absolutely, absolutely. My husband, very early on after having Max. Five weeks into it, I was sort of wasn't really sort of singing at the time, but I was actually managing the band that I was singing in and, and I remember being a band of I was the only female and it was blokes. And obviously, they're not really understanding what it is to be a new mum. And trying to juggle that and trying to juggle having my first child and I just remember just falling in a heat one afternoon and my husband actually saying to me, remember when you're in a plane and you have a child and those oxygen masks come down, you have to put that oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your child. Otherwise, you're useless. It's like it's an oxygen mask. And even now, he'll still say to me, you have to put your mask on first. And it makes my day just to know the aura around and it makes my day just to see your face, then a bullet in my body ricochets and it makes my day just to see you. And it makes my day just to know that you're around and it makes my day in those those early days when you're in the thick of it. Was there any music was there an outlet for you. Um, I was very lucky in those early years when I was in London. Even though I had no family around, I had an amazing support base with other mothers that I had met at a at an antenatal class. And they they were like family, I had a couple of other friends as well who lived a bit further away. But all I needed to do was just call them day and night if I needed to. And they they would do whatever they could to get to me. So I felt incredibly supported in that way. And because I had a really lovely network of other bands that I was working for as well, I was able to I was really lucky, I was able to actually pick and choose the gigs that I wanted to do so I was wasn't doing music on a full time basis like I had been. But yeah, I was in a really really fortunate position of still gigging when I wanted to gig. And I didn't have to travel very far if I didn't want to. So it was amazing. It was when I came back to Australia was when things got tough, and I did nothing. I didn't know anyone down here the two friends that I had, he lived right over the other side. So it wasn't like I was seeing them all the time. And it was me and four walls and three little babies. And my husband was working in town so he and he was doing long hours and they jet sack took a little bit of time to walk so they weren't really essentially very mobile when it came to getting out and about. I was going to a playgroup, but the playgroup the mothers, there really weren't the people, they weren't my people. And it was just something to do. And I set up a studio in the spare room, but I didn't really do anything with it at all hardly. And I think, because I didn't have the tools to write I knew that that's kind of where I wanted to head but I still had such incredible creatives create writer's block. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so I didn't know how to access that either. So not only was I not really accessing it, physically, I didn't know how to access it mentally either. So it was really tricky and it wasn't really until I turned 40 And Max It started school. And I wasn't doing any singing at all. I wasn't gigging. And I thought, right. What do I want to do? What? It's come to a turning point for me now? What do I want to do? Do I want to just keep singing covers in cover bands? Or do I want to explore something a little bit further? And that was when I decided that I wanted to start exploring, creating for myself because I hadn't done it for such a long time that I wanted. Yeah. It felt scary. And as I said, it felt wild. But I it was just kind of this internal pool for me, I think, yeah, to do it. But again, I didn't know where to start. And I actually started, I found I realized I wanted to sing in a choir for the walk. harmonies, and I thought, ah, actually, singing in a choir may write a bit right about now would be incredible. And I think it was back in 2016, the stars aligned and I found on the ABC News website, this new choir that had started up called Melbourne indie voices. Oh, yeah. And yes, yeah. And they've only just started, I think they'd started the week before. And yeah. had was with being interviewed. And I thought, ah, that's what I want to do. I don't want to sing anything like that. I didn't want to go there. The whole idea of singing arrangements of songs by independent artists, I just thought, ah, that's it. That's what I want to do. Yeah. And, ah, it was so much fun. And I met some incredible people. And Sofia and Joshua partner were just so insanely or are so insanely talented. And it was just lovely to sing, again, sing with people. And so I did that for a few years. And that also did start to encourage me to start writing as well. And I was getting lots of inspiration just from seeing what fear had created with her arrangements for songs and, and yeah, that's it, that was a real inspiration to get moving with it and start just looking at how I can start, what are the tools that I can find to get me moving with it? And yeah, and then eventually, I thought, I don't, I moved on from singing in the choir, I thought I just want to invest in myself now. And COVID hips, and it was for me, it was probably the best thing ever creatively. I was able to actually, the boys were great with remote learning. And we had some hiccups with with Max the eldest for a while, but that just yeah, that just really gave me a chance to start really exploring and just through the power of social media, meeting people and yeah, so that's been that's been it really? Isn't it funny how things come to you at the right time? Like when you need stuff, and things just appear? I just love that. That's an awesome, yeah. Oh, it's something that I think I've I've really become really interested. I mean, I've been interested in it for a really, really long time. But now I'm really delving diving really deep into it is like manifestation and spirituality and meditation. And I find that I have a really, really amazing routine now of meditating in the morning and journaling and object writing and really learning about and harnessing the sun. I'm looking for just harnessing the energy to create and to open up that channel and be the antenna and take all conscious thought out of out of it all and just allow something else to take over. So yeah, so I really have this huge belief now that and as you you've probably read and adapted yourself where yeah, when you when you speak something out loud. And you have a feeling connected to that. That sentence or that voice. It does. It's an antenna. It comes to you. Yeah, it makes it real. Now Yeah, absolutely. I've had too many things in my life occur that I have wanted to happen for me to think this is not coincidence. Yeah, at all. I've called this into existence. Yeah. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Like, I remember once I remember who it was, someone told me, because at this point, I was just doing gigs. I wasn't writing, but I was just doing gigs and doing whatever just sort of floating through not really, with any sort of purpose or whatever. And someone said to me, but what, like, what do you really want to do? What do you what do you what is your focus? And I sort of had to stop and think about it? Because actually didn't know. And I thought, well, actually, I'd really like to get back into my writing. And they said, Well, what do you want to sort of achieve with your writing? And I? And I said, Well, you know, I'd like to write a couple of songs, whatever. And they said, no, no, no. Think about what you want to happen. What do you want? Like, it was, it was almost like, visualize, see yourself, in this point, doing whatever. And I said, I'd really like to write some really good songs, and have someone that's going to produce them really well. So they sound really good. And it was just like, I don't know, I just something completely shifted in me. Yeah. And it's like, now I'm just about finished this album. And I'm so happy with it. Because it's just, I don't know, it just you Right? Like when you when you put it out there and you actually allow yourself to be open. And yeah, like taking away how it's going to happen. You know, necessarily planning things down to the nth degree, whatever, you just get clear with what you want. It's amazing. Like it is amazing. Yeah, blows my mind. It does. And this is something that I'm trying to teach my children as well. So the twins responding really well to it. Yeah, Max, not so much. Yeah. That teenage isn't? Yeah. And I think also, too, it is, as I said to you before, I think it is a little bit of that trauma that's in him because he at this point, and he was always a happy child, I look at photos and he had, he was always smiling and loving life. But I, he at the moment has sort of is walking in the dark path in terms of the world is a horrible place. And there's nothing good about it. And human beings are awful to each other. And what's the point and, and so he's not wanting. And it's just the stubbornness in him as well as he's not wanting to respond or taking anything that I say about, well, whatever you look for, it's what you're going to find if you're going to look for the bad stuff. That's what that's what's going to present to you if you if you look for the good, it works for the good stuff, too. But at the moment, he's he that's not the track that he wants. And I'm not worried at this point in time. Yeah, yeah, that's part of his outlier kind of persona that he likes to revel in. And he's always liked to be that type of person who wants to walk to the beat of his own drum, which is amazing. Like, it's something that I want him to continue on. And it's, I guess, I was like, That is a child to, like, you can't tell me what I need to learn and think and do and you've just got to make the mistakes yourself. And eventually, something will click and I know that will happen with him too. And it's just him knowing that they're here to be the place that he can learn. Hmm Yeah, but it's it's true, isn't it? Yet you call it into existence, you become accountable. I think that's what it is to like when you're I think as creatives just what you were saying it's, it's almost like you and you've probably had loads of other people say this to you as well. You have to give yourself permission, don't you? Which is so stupid. To want to have those things. Yeah, to want to be the songwriter to want to have that album released and to know that you're just as deserving of that as somebody else. And it's not folly. It's not stupid. It's something that you really want to do so why can't you do it? Yeah, yeah. When you say it like that it sounds so simple. gets in the way of that it's actually yeah. I'm conscious. Mr. Something else I've been really sort of studying as well as is brainwaves and and how they affect us in everyday life. And why is it that when we're about to fall asleep is when the songs come to us and and I think from what the minimum minimal amount of research that I've done, I think your brain way seems to have a lot to do with it. When you're in a better state is when you're the most relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. When you're relaxed is when the ideas and the creativity come to you. I find, like over the years, like, like you say, when you're about to fall asleep, but also, when you're in that meditative state where you're not thinking about anything in particular, I know how many times over the years, I did a lot of yoga. And I'd get up from Shavasana. And be like, Oh, I've got the best idea. It just literally. And I think, I don't know if it was Einstein that started it was the first person to talk about this theta state and your brain the way that your brain is, and you're just Oh, okay. I can't remember that just rang a bell. As soon as you said, I thought, oh, yeah, you're going to talk about the theta state. And for some reason, I've got Einstein in my head. But yeah, it's like, you literally change your brain. That's just I don't know, because that's the thing I've always, I always find so fascinating, is how you can literally just get stuff in your head, like, yeah, it just comes in and it and it doesn't just come in like one thing. It comes in, like an entire tune and all the words and you're like, where did this come from? Exactly. Right. Yeah. It doesn't it so when, when I'll, so for my single that I released last year, and and people say oh, so what was the process? Blah, blah, blah. And when you when I tell people, it sounds so simple. It's like, oh, yeah, it came to me in 10 minutes. And it's the living daylights out of me, because that's not that's not what happens. Usually, when you sit when you write a song or create it, it doesn't always happen to you in 10 minutes. But yeah, it's funny how you could just be doing like the simplest of tasks, like sweeping the floor, or vacuuming or whatever. And I find actually hanging out washing, I get lots of ideas on a hanging of washing. Yeah, yeah. It's like those simple repetitive moves that your body just does like that muscle memory. Yes. And then brains. It's like, a walking meditation basically, like, yeah. But your brain is in that other state. Because, you know, if you sort of switched off from that, you know, the consciousness. Yeah, I wrote a song about what it what it's like to write a song. Cool. music in my head. It's literally like, like, it just, it just comes to you. Like, I think there was something in there like, I could be walking or in the shower, or, you know, wherever and like, it just comes to me like, it's just, I find it amazing. It's the worst thing. It is, is it and it is just because we're relaxed. When we try too hard. It's like we're just blocking ourselves and you feel it internally as well, don't you? You feel like your stomach's just, and your heart space is just gonna drip. Yeah. And it's open to receiving anything. I was watching an interview very quickly. On a real yesterday actually about Jack White, what you were saying about as creatives we are or songwriters, we are antennas only. And Michael Jackson said something about the fact that when we're creating we have to let God in the room. Yeah, and I'm not religious, but I'm very spiritual. And I get that I get that. We have to just let the energy come to us all. Yeah, you can't force control. Yes, you can't. But as soon as you start to force stuff, it's like you're literally banging against that. Yeah. It's like, like you said, you close off. That vessel is is not a thing. Yeah. It's amazing. I love it. I do I, I am I over COVID. I remember giving myself a challenge to write a song in 24 hours, I was sort of all about the challenges at the time. And because it was it was making me accountable. And it was helping me manage my time. And I already had a bit of the chorus anyway, but I didn't know what to put around it. So I thought, right, I'm gonna write a song 24 hours. And the next day happened. And I was just like, oh my god, I'm gonna write a second verse. It was that dreaded second verse didn't know what to do. And I was putting so much pressure on myself. And eventually I just thought, right, I'm gonna go for a walk. Actually, no, I'm gonna go for a run. And I went for a run and I came back and bam, there was my second verse. All of it. I did certainly. Well, one time I was writing. Pardon me. I just went for a walk. And I don't usually take my phone with me like I leave at home because I like to not be distracted and I don't like to listen to music when I'm walking. I like to just appreciate the world and hear the birds and you know, whatever. Yeah, and I literally wrote the song. And I was like, Oh, damn, I don't have anything to write it down or Oh, no. So I was like, repeating repeating it repeating it repeating. The house was like Don't talk to me. Don't talk to me. Clearly good. All right, good. Oh, I can relate. I can that's a hard relate there. Yeah, it's, uh, I was talking to someone else on this podcast. Katie Callahan actually is a singer songwriter in in the United States. And we were sitting here. And like, sorry, like, in the middle of not the middle of the night, but that moment where you, you about to fall asleep, and you get stuff and you're like, I have to record that I have to get that down. And like she'd have a phone. And she'd like, be hiding in the bathroom something to remember. And then you listen back to it, and you let that understand myself. I've got so many little notes on my phone of just random. Random so or I'll whistle it or try and whistle blowing into the microphone. Oh, God. Oh, absolutely. Oh, gosh. Yeah, I do the same thing. I'm like, I write down to the lounge room and get settled the same thing. And then as you said, yeah, the next morning and like, Yeah, but that feeling when you finally get it down, and then you can relax is like the best feeling in the world. Like, I don't have to keep this in my head anymore. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I guess it's that that age old thing where like the tighter you grip onto something, the easier it is for it to slip out out every fingers. Want it to leave me? I get like that sometimes. I had one the other day where I literally had a song in a dream. I was singing the song in my dream. But do you think I could get it back? No. That's so frustrating, isn't it? Sure. It was a really really good song to cage that's around you. So locked inside there's a voiceless paradise to break them. And then he's the stories of like Paul McCartney dreaming yesterday. And that's how do you do that? I know that that's yeah, he's pretty special. I think he's awesome. I'm a big Beatles fan. But Paul's My face is Hey, see, I was listening to your I was listening to the episode with Georgia fields the other day. Yeah. And I heard the conversation between the two of you and and, and I thought to myself, John's always been my favorite. Yeah. Even though I know is that of there are things that may be called into question. Like now by Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that he was very I liked the fact that he was quite controversial. Yes, everything was very clear on the statement that he wanted to make. Yeah, yeah. He really pushed those boundaries. Sydney. Yeah. And just did not give a shit. Yeah. Why didn't anyone else thought at all? But but then looking at at just the talent of Paul and watching that that. Go back. Yeah. Yeah. That wasn't that amazing. Incredible. And, you know, you knew that obviously that they were kind of like the perceived powerhouse of the the writing side of things. But just to watch Paul, direct everybody. And it's almost like if he wasn't there. Yeah, they would just kind of be floating around and he was the focus. He was the one that was able to go right. Come on. Let's let's I tell you what, when I watched that, I watched it. And I just sat there thinking How the hell did these plugs ever get anything done? Because the amount of stuffing around I said to my husband, it's a miracle we've ever got any Beatles records because I know. Sometimes I thought, like you'd guys like I'm watching it like, you know, I've never seen footage like that, that extended footage, you know, just no learning, you know, not just cut out the nice bits or the productive bits, but just everything. It was like, holy moly. Like, I don't know, it just it really. I've just thought well, you got it friggin and then you've got Ringo sitting there on the drums virtually stoned out of his brain every day. Like, are we doing something now? Like I know exactly like him. I think but yeah, I think to like, when I was younger, before, you know, as you know, you sort of think as you grow up, you get more mature and you can understand people more, and you have more perspective, whatever. I was always really cross at Yokote. But the older I got, I just thought it was inevitable that they were going to part ways like I honestly was a miracle they did as much as they did together. Because yeah, I was so opposite. Like, the more that John basically enlightened himself. And the more that he was able to explore that there's no way he could have stayed with Paul. You know, it just made sense. And yeah, so I think any crutches anymore? Oh, absolutely. No, no, if you're listening, okay. Good. No, I 100% agree. And I think that just kind of, as you said, it comes with maturity and your own experiences as well. And understanding Oh, hang on a second. We, we aren't always the same person as we go through life. Yeah, and there are some people that we will remain in our lives, but potentially will remain in our lives in a different way or Yeah, so yeah, you do understand exactly what happened there. It was literally like, yeah, like a couple that grew apart. You know, like, yeah, that was it. But it did freak me out a bit. How she was just sitting right there when they were playing. No, I sort of felt that was, uh, yeah. I sort of and she was really sort of putting her two cents worth in from time to time who wasn't she was quite interesting. Yeah. I didn't like it. She hadn't been derangement. Yeah, I say, yeah. You had an inducement come in. Yeah. And she was the polar opposite. She's just sort of like this breath of fresh air that was just quite happy just to sort of sit there and have a chat and understand that it was Paul. Yeah. The space. Yeah, I think she's a creative, you know, with that photography side of things. So I think she got that. Boundaries, perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. Saying that Yoko is quite creative herself. I don't know. Maybe it was a cultural thing. I don't know. Now. I'm just, you know, making judgments about people that I have no idea. Anyway. Conntrack not what do you have to ask what's your favorite Beatles album? I think it's Abbey Road. Yeah, right. Yeah. It was probably the first exposure that I had to The Beatles. When I was young mum, mum, my mum had the album. And I used to love listening to octopuses garden. Yeah, love, love, love that as a kid. But as I got older, when I was a teenager, I really got into them as well. And I just I did like the fact that it was very two distinctive writing styles. Very much. John side and Paul side and, and my favorite part actually, in the whole album is Maxwell's silver hammer. I'm so glad you say that. That is my favorite. Because we actually used to think some of the Beatles songs to the boys. So we'd always sing, bang, bang Maxwell's silver hammer or Max's silver hammer. We would sing to Zack get sack. So it made me actually seem it made me listen to Maxwell's silver hammer quite intensely at a point in time. And there's this little moment. I think it's in the third second or the third verse. Paul singing it and you actually hear him laugh? Yes. Yeah. Have you heard that? Yes. You can just imagine. Yeah. What is the clowning around in the control room? Trying to make him laugh? Yeah. Oh, yes. I know. It's funny. Paul does that every now and then there's a few other songs. It sounds like he's laughing too. And I just think yeah, now that I've seen that whole you know, the whole thing, I think, oh my god, what were they doing? Like, seriously, someone's praying with their silver hammer been silly. But ya know, that happened just has some of my favorite Beatles songs. Yeah. Yeah, come together something. Oh, I just love something. And I know that was George Harrison. And the very end of the whole album with that medley Yeah, gold. I get goosebumps when I hear that like that. No, I'm getting goosebumps now. Just that that that Latin that last that last little line like the love you love you make is equal to you take it was like oh my god, it's so far cry. Yeah. And I love those last few. How many like the last few chords? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just genius. Same Oh, absolutely. And I wanted to I knew I wanted to write a song. Maybe that was something that could be like the very last song in a concert or the closer of an album like just that song that just made you want to go wow, yeah, yeah, that that's big finish that big finale. Yes. Captured in that moment. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have you done that? Have you written a song like that that you feel like you've cut I felt like I felt like my single last year was a bit like that. That was what I wanted to try and achieve with that even though it was my debut single that just huge. What was that song? Was that ghost? Yeah, that's those guys. Yep. Yep. Awesome. Yeah, so I I was a co produce with another producer, I sort of I wrote it and just produce the demo and the producer that I hired basically just tightened it up and just put on some better drums and some actual organic bass and guitar and that was it really the rest of it was was all me so. So do you do it on you play the instruments? Or is it you do it on the computer? Or how do you? How do you create that? So I will start on the piano. I'm not I'm a bit of a hack. When it comes to playing the piano. I'm not that confident with it. So I do find having the access to my DAW to be really being able to talk feeling like to be able to enunciate and articulate exactly, well not exactly because I'm still learning how to use it. But it I find it a lot easier to to express what I want to actually write with, with my songs through the through the studio and have access to the layer after layer and track after track rather than just relying on a piano. Yeah. But when I'm when I'm gigging and when I'm doing open mic nights, it is just me and my piano. So I do have to I do write, I will actually compose a song, a piano part on the song that I know that I'll be able to play when I'm singing rather than just being sort of the chords. Yay, me singing over the top. But it's certainly something that I don't naturally feel comfortable and confident. It's taken a lot of work. And I'm still working with that. I mean, I actually bought a, a headset. Oh, yes. Because I just find it's so stressful when I'm playing the piano and singing in public. So not only see where my hands are on the keys, like to remember where the microphone is, and being totally conscious of where that is. And if it's sort of slot starting to slip down, or oh, I've got it in the wrong position, but I can't move it. So I'm kind of playing and thinking and then I'm making mistakes, and I just find it just too difficult. So I thought get a headset don't matter what looks like stress out of it. And yeah, yeah. Because it's quite a spatial thing to like, knowing how far away you are from a mic, like how many times I've buddy hit a mic with my teeth or because like, I've just lost track of where it is. And you know, and that's not even playing as well. That's not accompanying myself. That's just me. Right? Yeah. You turn back around and go oh, there it is. Yeah, exactly. Every morning when I wake up, I keep my eyes closed as on picture in my day, all the carbons of my body and to the touch the phone. So I want to ask you, the rules songwriters of Melbourne that you've been doing some stuff with. Tell me about that. I have, ah real songwriters of Melbourne has been a lifeline. I first got exposed to them through COVID on Instagram, as I think a lot of people did. They've been going now for nine years. They're about to celebrate their ninth birthday. But do then are who started it? And is the CEO, I guess you could say CEO. She, it's her it probably didn't take off until COVID, either, because we were all looking for something outside of ourselves that as creatives helped us to feel like we weren't alone. And I mean, I was in a very fortunate position where I hadn't lost any money I knew lots of I got to know lots of people who lost so much work. And it started out as for me as being a way that I could meet other creatives because I had no, I knew no one. Yeah. I had other mums around, but they weren't singer songwriters, or anything like that. So it was lovely to be able to start to network online. And I guess because of of the confidence that I have in myself now, just, I guess, through getting older, I found it very easy to make myself stand out, but not in a bad way and not to tread on other people's toes. But just being friendly and being supportive of other people and wanting to get to know other people and wanting to get to know other people's stories and realizing that, hey, I've got a story to tell too. And I think I could actually, I think a lot of people could who are younger than me could benefit from listening to my story. And they are amazing at being able to point you in the right direction, to releasing a song or finding in through finding information for you about the industry, the networking nights that they put on, they always have a speaker. And they've had people from publishing companies have had people from Apple or m cos they've had people from music, which Toria just all these amazing people speaking that you would not even know where to start looking. Or you wouldn't have that personal contact with them. Even if it's through an email or sending a bunch of emails or getting on DMS or whatever, then you just, and sometimes you don't even know these people exist or what they do in the music industry, because it's so complicated. There's so many different different people that do different things. And that's yeah, like, that's the thing I find a bit frustrating, like, there's no straight line of how you do stuff. Like know, whenever, like I discovered all this stuff by accident. Like just by, you know, like you register yourself with a pram cost and you can get paid when you perform. I didn't know that before, you know, and put it on the air at stuff on the radio. So the community radio he's like can get access to. And so now if I ever come across anyone who's releasing something who like I just tell them all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know if you know this or not, but do this and do this and get this number and do that. And you know, like there's just absolutely, there's no way you can go that just says this is how you do it. Yep. No, that's right. And that's something that I have found with the real songwriters. They are that that's the Yeah, that's their role. And they have released academies where people can just basically be given that timeline of what to do from the moment you start recording or even like finding a producer or finding somebody to collaborate, collaborate with and right down to promotion and release dates. And yeah, so we've been we're really fortunate here in Melbourne and even regional Victoria as well, that there is that access to all the information that you need, particularly as an emerging songwriter who is doing it on their own. Yeah, yeah, I've learned that everybody has a place at the table that it's all about collaboration, not competition, like it used to be and that's been really reassuring. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom I was in need. I am not going to say this in a nice way because I'm a similar age. too, but do you feel like at some point, people think you're irrelevant in music? Because of your age? No, because I don't let them. Yeah, good on you. I don't let them at all. I refuse to believe that I'm irrelevant. I refuse to sit back now and go, nope, I'm too old. And I think actually, that it works in my favor. Because I do feel very strongly about the fact that as a woman, and as a mother. We aren't irrelevant. We still have so much to say. And we probably have more to say, because we have lived more. Yeah. And I think it's our responsibility as older women to forge the path for younger women, something that I've learned a lot just in conversations that I've had with lots of other younger female songwriters. And I mean, we only only had a conversation just really recently, at a performance that I did fall real songwriters. And it was one of the other artists that we sat down, unfortunately, the conversation was interrupted, but she was asking me how old I was, How many children do I have? How old was I when I first started having children. And she said to me, she said, It's just inspirational to listen to somebody who isn't who who has had children later on in life. I mean, I was 35 when I had Macs, and she said that she had just broken up with her boyfriend, she was 29. And there was a part of her that sort of wanted to go back to him because she felt like she was going to miss out on that whole, having a child experience. And I've had lots of conversations with lots of girls who have gone like, I'm seeing my friends getting married and having babies and I'm feeling like I'm missing out. And it's just like following your heart. I'm here to tell you, it doesn't matter. There is no linear timeline as to how you do things. If you want to keep creating, everything will just fall into place. Yeah. Yeah. So I Yeah, and that's been a big thing for me. Now is to just be that advocate to go pay. I started doing this seriously. When I was 44. Yep. So it's never too late. Yeah. Yeah. No, good on. Yeah, that's great. I guess maybe? I think probably I haven't, I haven't been, I haven't been in this side of the music industry long enough to see things occur with attitudes of, I guess, the patriarchy. Having an attitude that you're done by the time you're 21. And if you haven't made it by the time you're 25, then you're no one and I haven't been exposed to that side of things. So I'm lucky that I can remain optimistic. Whereas I think there's lots of other female artists who have been in the music industry who have seen a lot more than I have. And potentially find it a lot more difficult to, to keep going. Yeah, it's interesting, I've just started working with. I mean, I knew that the music industry was literally to business, right? The commercial radio, the signing, record labels, whatever, then just for this album that I'm releasing, I've just started working with a proper rep that I've never done, I'll never forget before, because I want this, I mean, this is what I say every time I don't know if this will be the last album I get to make, you know, so I want to do it properly, I guess. And and so it's amazing. When you they sent me this this like a you know, like you have a family tree with all the bits going everywhere. It was like that of the music industry. And it's like, if you can stay away from all that other bullshit and be independent, you've got so much more chance of remaining true to yourself, not having to do with all the the white men that make all the decisions for you. Making really great connections with people in community radio, and, and getting your music to the people who will genuinely be connected to it and be being flipped not influenced by that I'm affected by it and feel something by it. And it's like why the hell would anyone ever want to sign their life away? You know, to these big businesses like it doesn't make sense. And I was even saying so Max's has been wanting to play guitar now for the last 18 months, and he he's insanely good. Yeah. I mean, I know everyone says that about their kids. Yeah. But as a musician, you sort of know whether they are or not. Exactly, yeah. And just seeing the passion that he has for it. And he's still, because he's still so new at it in his little mind. He, he's thinking, it's all about sort of like getting the record company and signing the contract. And that's what it is. And I can't remember what we were watching. But we had a conversation very quickly about the music industry and, and the business behind it. And, and he was talking about, like, bands selling out and singles and blah, blah, blah. And I said, Look, this is what happens when you're signed to a record label, you actually don't get the voice, you don't get a voice, you don't get a choice as to what song you release, you are told and you are a product. And you are dispensable and disposable. And as you said, it is an asset. It's a business. That's why it is called business. Nothing to do with the music is just there a product it the music is the thing that you're selling, like if you sold shoes or something, you know, I hated shows like Australian Idol and that it's like you're literally trying to find someone who's going to make money for you. You know, and over the years, like my sister and I both sing and peoples are you guys should go on Australian, I was like, I was so firmly against it. Because I just was so cynical of that world with good reason that, you know, they're gonna take you they're gonna turn you into something else that they want, that's going to make more money that's more marketable, or, you know, and I just go night that that's not for me. I don't want. And I also I don't think, I don't know, I just want to be who I am. And that sounds like it's a cop out like, I don't know, no, no, no, no, not at all. I don't want to I don't want to go wear some clothes that I don't that don't suit me or change my hair. Like I just want to be who I am. That's it. And I think you're happier that way, too. Yeah, thank you for being like that, Oh, I hate those shows with an absolute passion. And yeah, and anyone who knows me know, who's how I don't like to rent I used to when I was younger, but I don't like to rent anymore. But if you really let me go, I'd be like, All right, let me tell you. But I guess to the general population who don't have the kind of access that we have, I mean, we're in a really privileged fortunate position where we have first hand experience. What it is, I mean to someone, there's so much to think about, like standing in a recording studio is just so beyond the realms of fantasy for most people. Whereas for people like you and I, it's nothing to die young going into the studio when she's dead. Yeah, like literally like, Yeah, ah, yeah, it's funny. And but that's the thing once you know, it freaks you out. Because you know that, you know, when I realized how songs got onto commercial radio, I was like, that they're paid. Like, it's to do with the deals that they make with the record companies to play this song, like, and I was like, There's no way I'm ever going to hear my music on that. And it's like, well, that's great. So I'll forget about that. And I'll just, you know, focus on the things that, that I can do. And it's like, yeah, when not everyone wouldn't know you that, you know, like, no, absolutely not, particularly, I think when you're younger, as well. And you do just have that. That idea of, that's what it is, and you're famous, like I remember teaching singing for a little while back in the late 90s, early 2000s. And, and I remember a couple of students sort of Britney Spears was massive at the time and I show my age and and I remember a lot of them sort of saying I want to record contract and and saying, You know what? It's not about having the record contract, and then everything falling in your lap and just explaining to them as best I could before they just sort of saw it has been white noise, what it actually entails and it's someone literally giving you a loan that you miss how you have to pay back. Yes. And if you don't pay it back a bit through record sales and touring, then you aren't you're still owing money. No thanks. Yeah. So yeah, it's just it's, that's what people are exposed to when they're young. They're watching Australian Idol and things like that on TV indefinitely. millionaire thinking oh, this is what it is to this. This is the way to become famous. And this is the way to to be a millionaire. And yeah, it's easy. Easy. Yeah, exactly. And I think what sort of makes me really annoyed about those those sorts of programs too is when they they lock on to say an old person who says, This is my last chance. That's like, yeah, so for bloody television play. Yeah, that'd be the less than about those shows about that. Yeah. And, look, I could, no, I'll stop now. I won't stop again. I know, saying that's the thing. I know, actually. Just Just to quickly, yeah, one more point, I do remember going on to the application form of the voice just to see what it was about. Because I, I remember googling about what the actual contractual obligations are of the contestants. And, and I went on to the onto the application form, and there is actually a bit on the application form that asks, Who would you dedicate this performance? To? So they're fishing? Yeah, for the story? Yeah. Yeah, that story? Yeah. And I thought, there it is. That's what they want. They want that sob story. Yeah. So like bullshit Sarah? We're changing tack slightly, I want to talk to you about something I like to talk to people about the value of their art or their creativity. And you mentioned before that your music is a hobby. How do you because you don't necessarily earn, you know, a massive income from your music? Does that, in your mind diminish at all? The value of it? Overall? No, not at all. Yeah, I think because I'm still learning how to do it with the object in mind that this is how I do want to earn money. So I think I'm still sort of walking up that ladder, to get it to that point, and to know that it's okay to want to earn money from it. But that it is, it's, I think, also, too, when you have that in the back of your mind, sometimes that puts a bit of pressure on I know, it puts pressure on me. So I'm quite happy to know that my art still has value, because I'm still putting out putting it out into the world. And it's something that comes uniquely from me. And it's wonderful If people hear it and relate to it, even if it's just one person. So no, I don't think it does diminish it at all. And I part of the reason why I wanted to start creating and learning how to access that part of myself was to show my children that it doesn't matter how old you are, you are always learning and you can always learn a new skill. And we are never taught at school, the process of learning at all. We're just expected to sit down and absorb information where it's not linear. It's not like once you've cracked something, oh, I can do this now. And you keep doing it. No, it's always two steps forward one step back. There's always frustrations there's always that feeling of oh, I did this yesterday. Why can't I do it today? Yeah, that feeling so I think that in and of itself is art. Yeah, that learning process. So it's all valuable. Yeah. in any form. Any money from modern art? Yes, that's I knew you were gonna say that. I sort of I've got to work out a way of wording that question so it's not so walking you into it? Yeah, no, that's fine. Oh, yeah. No my arts crap because I don't make money from it. and also to I see, I've got a cousin, who is a singer as well. But she is a completely different style to me. And we really, sadly don't have a lot to do with each other, which is quite sad. But at the same time, she still is in the old music industry mindset of competition. And I think that's potentially why we don't ever really get on. Or she sees me as a threat. I don't know. But I kind of feel like she's feeling like that we're in competition. And I see how much stress and pressure she has placed on herself in the past with making albums. And I think the last album that she made one of the songs that she did actually got a nomination for Best song for the golden guitars up in Tamworth, I think back in 2013. But she had placed so much pressure on herself that if this album didn't do any good, she wasn't going to do it anymore. No. And I think that's really, really sad. Yeah. That she was just it for me. That's not art. No, that's that's running a business isn't like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think now she is actually a surgical nurse. And I think like any creative, you put it on the shelf, we put it to bed for a number of years and kind of go up and up. But I don't want to I'm not ready to do that yet. It kind of hurt me a little bit. But I think now she's at that point where she's, she's wanting to start to get back into it. I know, she is actually singing in cover bands up in Tamworth now. So she's getting back into that side of things. But I think she's actually really from what I hear. She's actually really keen to get back into writing again. But yeah, just I think it's really sad when we placed pressure on ourselves that yes, we have to make money and this has to do really, really well. And yeah, no, not that's not for me. I think that that whole thing, it just takes away that ability to like we were talking before about being in those states or being in those, you know, mindset to be creative. It just shuts all that down. Yeah, exactly. Just doesn't doesn't work. That's it. I mean, it's it's gonna be fun. Yeah, absolutely. God, I can't be stressful. No, I want it to be stressful. That's the thing like you've got enough stress in your life with you know, families and kids and jobs and whatever else in the thing that you do for fun. You want it to be fun. Yeah, exactly. Stop stop. Your stub stub stub that you mentioned you, your boys there how you sort of showing them, you know, different things. Do you feel like it's good for them to see you as not just mom and I always say that Jasmine, because you're not just mom. So we're never just man, but that you do things outside of your mothering role, I guess? Absolutely. Yeah. It took them a long time to understand. They would see me go to choir. Yeah. And every every Monday night and it would be sort of quickly shoveling going down my throat and off I went. And for a long time it would be like lag and leaving. Why are you going and they just didn't understand that and I distinctly remember one day doing something writing something and and Max coming out I don't even know how old he was he probably about seven or eight coming into me and just going mom, you shouldn't be making music. You should be making my lunch so no, I think it's very important for them to see that. I have other interests outside of being a mum and I know lots of mums will agree when when you say that it makes you a better mum. Because you're happy and it will there will come a time when they will understand me they understand now I fully but yeah, when they were when they were little they didn't obviously but I I know after releasing my single last year, that they are our are very proud of me, even though Max probably wouldn't admit it, but it was one of the twins, Zach was always he's always telling people at school that I seen and he's always showing what I do on a showing Spotify and showing all his friends and everything that I'm doing. And I helped out at a cross country thing for one of the twins classes a few weeks ago, and a little girl came up to me and she's just like, you're on the internet. So, yeah, I think they need to see that I am doing something that I really enjoy. And it makes it makes me happy. It's part of who I am. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So it is very important that I'm, I'm particularly too because I don't work. So it's, it's even more important for them that they see that I am, Mum, but I am also me, as well. And I have an identity, because you know what it's like when you when when you first got children, you're known as Max's mom. And it's like, I don't have a name. I was gonna say that earlier, actually, when you're talking about the twins, when you get to talk with in the street, like I recall, you know, people see you and they'd straightaway just latch on to the baby. And it's like, I'm actually here, you know, I'm the one that thinks like, I'm the one that's keeping them alive. But you know, to worry about me. And they'll be with the three of them get to like Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you are, you do just kind of become this soulless figure, don't you when you first become a mother. And that's really, I think it's really, really difficult to reconcile with. Because so suddenly, everyone else's life, I remember being pregnant with Max and sitting in the lounge room one night, just in tears, because I just thought, I'm the first one in my friendship group to have a baby. I hadn't met my mom's group at this point in time. And everyone else's life will go on as normal. Even to a certain extent, my husband, he still gets to go to work and come home. Whereas my whole life in the blink of an eye is going to change. And I think that that was a really, really difficult realization for me. And I remember actually feeling very angry and very upset about that. A little while, and just feeling this is not fair. Yeah. But you get over it, don't you? In your arms, you're like, Oh, fine now? Well, not really. I know you made it. So fat in the end, eventually, I think it through the help of, you know, continuing your creativity, just to remind yourself that you still have these skills and abilities and gifts. It's like they don't just disappear suddenly, when the baby pops out. Like no, no. Exactly, absolutely. I was even. I've been doing some some tuition with with a producer over in the UK, Aubrey Whitfield, and she is just about to have her first child in June. And she is an incredibly busy producer. And she cannot get over the attitude towards her with some people in terms of if she, for example, isn't able to get a song to an artist on time because she's been tired or she's had morning sickness. And it's amazing just how unforgiving. People are like it's yeah, we know we're not sick. But you do just have to cut pregnant women a little bit of slack. And even when I was really heavily pregnant with the twins, I got onto the tube and the train. And I had a little like baby on board badge and I was quite big at this point in time. And there was a man sitting in the special seat. And he was surrounded by bags and I looked at him and I say Excuse me, could I please sit down? And he looked at me and he was French, just from the accent. He was just like, but I have all these bags and I was like bye Baby bags get off. Oh my god. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like, like a hug to someone else the other day like, we're literally continuing the human race, you know, without us having children birthing children, the world would end. But no, you can't sit down because my bags are on the floor. You know? That's it. I know. And I know that there are some people, some women that potentially do come across as being entitled, because they are mothers, and they have birthed children, and they feel entitled for the world. For them to park the seas and the world to revolve around them. I do get that. But at the same time, yeah, it's just like, rolling a person in me. My choice, but I just don't get that like that she couldn't happen. Like you lose sight of the of those the amazingness of the whole thing? I don't know. It's really sad to think that we're just not supported. Yes. Yeah. We should be. Yeah. And I think it's again, it's a it's a Patrick patriarchy thing, I suppose where we're, this is what we are meant to do. So yeah, why do we feel like we should be needing like, preferential treatments? And I think that's where it stems from? Yeah, I think so it is a lot going on there. But I'll stop myself. Because if I start Oh. Bla. Jana, you just I want to ask you, if you've had sort of anything experience with mum guilt, over the years, when it comes to your music it's funny because I've been thinking about this a lot. Um, maybe from time to time in the early days? I did. Because they were little. And they were needing me. And I didn't have the help around me. Where I didn't have like a mom close by or a sister close by who I could just be like, Look, can you take the kids for the day just so I can do this? And I'm fine. So I think in the early days, I did, particularly when I first started like doing choir, for example, and leaving them and thinking that yeah, I feel guilty for leaving them. But thankfully, with the help of my husband as well, I was able to let that go quite quickly and understand that I need to do this. And I'm not going to be a good mom, if I'm going to put that guilt on myself. Because they the kids get over it. Don't they like that? They might be like, Oh, Mom, where are you going? What are you doing? But then to seven years later, it's just like, Oh, look at that. It's like jewelry from off to the next thing distractions did exactly, exactly. i My eldest for quite a long time. Actually, it wasn't just the music thing, it would be like if I put into bed and then I'd quickly pop off up to the shops because it was easier to do it on my own obviously, because I didn't have to haul three kids out of the car. So it would just be ducking up to Kmart or something like that to do something and I would come home. And Max had been in bed for an hour or more and he'd be waiting for me to get home. And then the moment I'd walked through the door, he come out of his bedroom and give me a hug and say to me why Where did you go What I didn't, why are you leaving that kind of thing. And that happens a lot when he was little. And I couldn't work out why but my husband and I like why are you doing this? Like why Mom's coming home? And I spoke to my grandmother about it. And she said to me she she made a really good point. And she said to me, maybe because he's always told that if he goes out on his own, that he has to be careful and something might happen to him. Maybe he feels that something like that is going to happen to you and I thought oh my My goodness may potentially be what it is. Yeah, right element of worry of this is a date not a dangerous place because you don't want it to be just a dangerous place. But yeah, yeah, it's just like, I'm not allowed on Maya out on my own. So I don't want you Yeah. Which I've just thought that's a really valid point. And the moment I started to reframe it in that way, I became a lot more empathetic to him. Yeah, rather than getting frustrated with it. Yeah. Hmm. At the moment, my seven year old is going through this Age of Reason where he discovers that he's a, I don't know, a sentient being, and he's controlling his thoughts and also realizes that people die. And that when his parents who died, oh, wow, conversations of evenings, like, Oh, of course, at bedtime, you know, when when there's nothing else to do but think. So yeah, he's had a shocking few nights, I've actually had to be back in there with him, helping him to fall asleep, which I haven't, you know, years and years and years and years. Yeah. So to my husband, we have to be really kind to him and not tell him off. And even though we're frustrated that we've, you know, can't get some time to a sales, but you know, it'll pass but yeah, that's it, isn't it? And it's very easy to look at it from an adult perspective. And think, why you're doing this for like, yeah, you're being really illogical. And you're being silly. Like, it's, that's Yeah, but when you look at it from their point of view, and then I think that happens when you start to just be kind to them and understanding and Yeah, Mike appealing rational to us. Yeah, yeah. But it's a very real problem. Yeah, that's it. He said to me the other day, he just wanted to sit with me. So I just want to spend as much time as I can with you before you know. And then I thought back to my, my eldest who is 15. And when he he went through it a lot younger. He was like, everything he did was early, he talked early, like everything was early. And I remember thinking, God, you weren't like this. At seven. He was like, a lot earlier. And he said a thing to me, he said, are when you die, I don't want them to put you in the ground. I'll go in the ground with you. So I don't miss you. And I've always remembered that and I think oh my god. That's how that's how he's rationalizing. Losing, you know, people. Yeah, God, it's big. Isn't it? Like, being a little person and having that massive thing? So? Oh, yeah. That just reminded me when you're talking about your little man, yeah, it's a real version of an existential crisis read literally, isn't it? Yeah. All of a sudden, there's this whole extra thing happening. And you're aware of so many other things that you didn't really get like, you knew it was there. But you didn't understand the magnitude of it, I suppose. And how it would affect you and your your emotions related to it. Yeah, it's pretty Yeah, exactly. Wow. Yeah. Tell you what betimes makes you think it does bring you back as an adult to think about important things like that, I think to think, I don't know, you take that stuff for granted, I guess. And then, when someone little person says that you think Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Because I guess it feels like such a long way away for them to be dying. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's when you sort of start to think, oh, hang on a second. You see your grandparents passed away. If you're lucky enough that you're an adult, you still have your grandparents. I mean, I'm lucky enough. I've still got one grandmother, she's 91. And I just think to myself, once she goes, then it's my parents, and they're in their 70s Now, and they are facing their mortality as well. And my dad had a cancer scare last year, and that's really changed him profoundly, as well. So just kind of thinking wow, like the last 20 years have gone really quickly. And if I'm lucky enough, I've still will have hopefully my parents in another 20 years but at the same time, what is their health going to be like? And it's sobering, isn't it? Yeah, that it just it's Yeah. And to be like my grandmother and think to yourself, I wonder how much longer I have left? Yeah, I do. We have haven't we've gone down this path. But I do that and I think I have these like every few few years. I guess you have this time. More, you just literally take stock and you like what you've just said they're like, Okay, so I'm 40 nearly 40 5am I halfway through or am I, you know, three quarters of the way through? Like, will I get to see my children to have children? You know, will I be grandmother? And you just think, oh my god, this is like life. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it makes you and I think when I turned 40, I thought to myself, I've tried not to sort of see the new decade as being this threatening thing. And I was fine leading up to my 40th birthday. But I remember when I did turn 40 All of a sudden, it just hit me. Oh, who am I? Who am I? I'm not this sort of bouncy little kind of like blond haired Jojo, that everyone has known me. I don't identify with her anymore, but I don't know who I am now. And it very, it was a real shock to the system to go. Whoa, I don't think I'm actually not having a midlife crisis. But I have actually hit the next chapter in my life. Like I am actually all grown up now. Yeah, yes. But yeah, with that sense of maturity, you you do stuff. Right. Well, I don't know how much longer I do actually have. Yeah, yeah, it's tremendously sort of start weightlifting. As I say when it's daring definitely. Right anything coming up that you'd like to share? I am. I haven't decided yet, which I'm going to actually release some singles or whether I'm actually going to release an EP. My goal for by the end of this year is to actually release some music, some more music, but I'll be doing it completely self released in terms of honing my own mixing and mastering skills, they're not getting any outside help. That's exciting. Yeah, I'm really excited about it. And just to, to have that catalog of songs on Spotify, a friend of mine did some research really recently. And I don't know what she was looking at. But it was basically saying that when people look at your Spotify profile, they actually want to see that there's more than one song, they want to see a catalog of songs, which I don't have. So that's what I want to do, I want to just have that catalog. And just, they don't have to be perfect. And I'm not going to promote them as heavily as what I did with my last single know that I have done it. And I've gotten more music out there that I've shared properly. And I will actually release another single where I will really promoted heavily like I did with my single last year, but and I will actually get some outside help with that. Because that particular song, I feel like I won't do it justice and I just doing it myself. It's not quite how I want it. And my skill set at this point in time can't elevate it to the level that I want it to be at. So yeah, I will do that, hopefully by the end of the year as well. But it's, as we all know, it's just finding the time to fit that kind of stuff in and in between like running the kids to basketball and volunteering at school and doing all that kind of stuff as well as running patients in the house. So yeah, so that's the goal. Stay tuned. Yes, that's exciting. That's it and I can appreciate that it's quite daunting to take that next step. and do stuff by yourself, then to trust that you have the skills to be able to do and believe in yourself, too. I think that what do they call it that? I always forget what it's called. Now this gone, but when you don't think you're good enough, you think that are important syndrome? Yeah, yeah. Get over that and say actually, no, I do know what I'm doing. And I am going to do it. I think that's awesome. Going on. Yeah. Well, I, I would like to start producing other people's songs as well, eventually, I'd love that. That's kind of the dream for me is to not only write and produce my own stuff, but to also help other people as well other artists and collaborate with other artists in that way. I'm and I feel like I'm a long way away from that at this particular point in time, but I think I've thought for a while now, I've always thought to myself, it's an expensive hobby, releasing music. And so if I can learn to do a lot of it myself, yeah, rather than spending $1,000 on someone else doing it for me, I'd rather spend that $1,000 and learn how to do it myself, as they say, teacher, give him give a person a fish, they'll eat for a day, teach a person to fish in the lake for the life for the lifetime. So that's how I see it. Yeah. And learning continuing to learn like that. So yeah, I think that's a very recurrent thing that I've heard just, you know, it's a theme that's coming through a lot today. It's great to keep, keep learning and yeah, not settling, I suppose. Yes, the hard part is not being distracted and thinking, Well, I'd like to learn how to do that too. And I was learning the drums. And I still want to keep learning. But I actually started to think you know what, I'm getting off way more than I can chew. I do need to start honing in on some things. The producing side of things under the belt first, and then we'll go back to learning the drums because that was fun. That was so much fun. with like, the, all of that sound engineering side of stuff, like does your brain work in that, that way? It's starting to, yeah, it's really starting to. It's starting to really listen to things now and think about like the frequency spectrum then. And I haven't really quite nailed down compression yet. I'm getting there. But these courses that I've been doing with this producer over in the UK, she's completely self taught. But just the way, she teaches everything, it just makes it sound so easy. And it is easy, the way she just kind of breaks things down. And articulate articulates it it just takes away any of the complicated stuff that you may find on YouTube, like it's taken me, it took me a really, really, really long time just through like YouTube tutorials to get a grip with a get a grip on lots of different things that I wanted to try and try and do in my studio. And I learned more in three months with Aubrey than and got more confident with it in three months. And what I did in three years is insane. Yeah. So now, I know that I can lift up the laptop. And I can listen to something now and be like, right, I want to have a little bit of delay at this point. And I know how to do it. Yeah, rather than Yeah. So it's learning another language and I find it fascinating. So now, the way I listened to music is totally different. Yes. So what I used to I used to just listen to it from a singers aspect. Words and Music words and Melody top line. Now, it's like, right, so how did they achieve the excitement in this space with the music? So what sounds did they use and how many layers and all this sort of stuff that I that I was I was being taught in high school, that at the time I didn't care about like, why is the cello there so but now it's like, oh, right, I can I can see the I can hear the intention behind why they're playing particular things. Like I'm probably a little bit too analytical. But I don't see that for myself as being a downside. If I I guess if my husband's sort of going I don't like this and I'm like yes, but you have to see why they don't. When you have that knowledge, it's almost too much. Yeah. Oh, I can I can relate to that. was just listening to the singer. And I was totally the same when I made my first album. When I was working with the producer I was working with he was like now what? What sort of sound Can you visualize for this? And I'm like, I was coming at it from my point of view. He's like, Oh, no, but what about the instruments? I'm like, I don't know. Isn't that what you do? Like it was, like saloon and understand. And now the second album, I'm like, telling them what I want. Because I can, it is another language like I can actually feel like I can communicate in that way. Now, it totally different, totally different and it's great. I love I love that, that awareness. But with this sound, sound engineering stuff, literally, I just go. I know how to make the things work that I know that I want to do. And then I don't fiddle with anything else, because I've got to touch things. I don't move things that don't fit. Oh, yeah, that's good. Leave it like that. Yeah. I know, it's funny. When I when I was working with with my producer, for my single, there was a certain part in the song that he must have sent it back to me maybe six times, and it still wasn't achieving the sound that I wanted it to achieve. And, and I kept sort of saying to him, like this naturally sort of pushed up further and this. And I mean, I know as producers, you do get so used to working with vocalists and artists who don't know how to get the desired effect that they want. Yeah. And it got to a point where I just thought, oh, you know what, it's just going to be so much easier if I just go back into the studio, and we actually just sit down. Yeah, and go through it. And I had this epiphany of thinking, Oh, my goodness, I'm trying to do more, more more. Why don't I actually figure out what can be taken out. So make this part stand out. And it was just a totally different perspective that I had never even it never even entered my mind that that's sometimes what you have to do. And so, we got it done in half an hour, I went into the studio, and I was like, right, I thought about it. What are the instruments that are there? What can we take away? And we worked out what it was and bam, the sound appeared. Oh, there you go. I love that. That's so yeah, but as as Bruce said, in the tutorials, she's she's, I'm doing actually funnily enough a vocal production thing now and like so getting up at like one in the morning because it's a live zoom session at four o'clock in the afternoon UK time. She had we did she did a whole module last weekend on how to work with singers who really don't know what they're doing. They, like don't even know how to sing to a metronome. And I I know Right, exactly. You just sort of think I could you know yeah, that's it. That boggles my mind. But she said she was actually saying that it happens more frequently than what you expect. Wow. So learning how to literally be prepared for anything. Whoa. I never thought about that before. Yeah, so there's there's been quite a few times where my I've gone to bed and then my alarms gone off at like 10 to two in the morning and then I'm up until 330. The couple of weeks ago actually I had a gig about an hour and a half away and we didn't finish until 1230 and I got home at two o'clock and the session was starting at two o'clock. Oh, like jumping in the shower because I was really really sweaty. Jumped in the shower and quickly logged on and got to bed at yeah at 330 Oh yeah. Have to ask your your Instagram is like Dragon Fly industry dragonfly industry. Yeah. Where did that name come from? Right. So I wanted to actually separate my identity of myself and the project because I felt if I had a little bit of detachment from that it wasn't it wasn't including my My whole identity in the project. Yeah, and, and I was fascinated with people who had artist names that weren't a name. And the one that kept coming to me was Japanese wallpaper. And and that's just one guy. I can't remember his name now. I thought it'd be really cool to have an artist name like that. I can hear it on the radio now, like, debut single by dragon flying industry. And I thought it had to be sort of something that potentially could be visual. And I wanted something that included like the idea of me taking off like growing wings and flying. Yeah. And I thought birds and butterflies, cliched overused. I wonder what else there is. And I meditated. When I just didn't remember this. I meditated one Saturday afternoon, it wasn't like I was meditating on it at all. But I was meditating. And I started having a discount, like just a conversation with my late grandfather, mid meditation, and was washing up maybe half an hour later. And then all of a sudden thought, Oh, my goodness dragonfly. I wonder if that has any symbolic meaning. And so I looked it up. That means things like maturity and adaptation, and let me have a look. It just it really, really just resonated to a point where I was just like, shot. Real? And yes, so then I thought, right. Dragonfly. Hmm. I'm building as well. And, and then I thought industry. I wonder what the Oxford Dictionary like I wonder what the actual definition of industry is. And it was something like manufacturing and building from raw supplies. And that just, Oh, that is perfect. And I had felt in the conventional way. And then I had someone say to me when they saw dragonfly industrial in a lineup for an open mic night, that he was really intrigued to find out what it was because when he looked at the words, it actually looked like it was something from the corporate world. No, I don't want that. I don't want no. Yes. So I thought I would change the spellings a little bit. But little did I realize that I was potentially shooting myself in the foot because I'm continually telling people out spell it will be okay. And every live it's all a dream. It's like exploring canvas on one screen. A Chat is the truth of broken lines. The bedtime story is that a threat has only drama. Thank you so much for coming on. Joe. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Yeah, thanks for sharing all your bits and bobs and, and indulging me where I've wandered off on the tangent. Oh, don't worry, I've done the same thing. That's been great. And yeah, I'll put all the gather up all your links and put them in the show notes. So people want to follow along with you. Safari. Here. Barry. Yeah, and all the best. I hope you Yeah, have a have a good time making new singles and or deciding it's an EP, whatever you just keep an eye out for. Yeah, thanks again. So much. It was great. It was so good fun. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Charlotte Condie US artist, illustrator and designer S2 Ep29 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Charlotte Condie- an artist, illustrator + designer based in Atlanta, Georgia, USA, and the mum of 4 kids. Her experience in creative arts has spanned over two decades, 3 US states and multiple media including chalk, linoprint, quilting, collage and mosiacs. The bulk of her work is now digitally created, which has proved to be a great option for her as a mum of a young child, when she is frequently holding a baby and unable to fumble with inks, rollers, paints, brushes, and canvases. We chat about how her art practice has adapted to suit her current situation, how her yoga practice influences her artwork, using her art to to aid surviving through the pandemic. and reflecting the simple day to day events through her art. **This episode contains discussions about depression, anxiety, panic attacks and a brief mention of domestic abuse** Visit Charlotte's https://www.instagram.com/charlottecondieart/ and - https://charlottecondieart.com/ . View Charlotte's piece " Protection " - https://www.instagram.com/p/CYMdwTSF58g/ More information about the mudrahs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudra Read more about Meg Conley - https://www.instagram.com/_megconley/ Shop art supplies Charlotte uses here Connect with the podcast - https://www.instagram.com/art_of_being_a_mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on this episode is Charlotte, Condi, artist, Illustrator and designer based in Atlanta, Georgia in the United States, and a mom of four children. Charlotte's experience in creative arts has spanned over two decades, over three US states and multiple media, including chalk line Oh print, quilting, collage and mosaics. The bulk of her work is now digitally created, which has proved to be a great option for her as a mum of a young child, when she's frequently holding a baby and unable to fumble with inks, rollers, paintbrushes, and canvases. Today, we chat about how her art practice has adapted to suit her current situation, how her yoga practice influences her artwork, using her art to aid surviving through this pandemic, and reflecting on the simple day to day events through her art. This episode contains discussion around depression, anxiety, panic attacks, and a brief mention of domestic abuse. Welcome along Charlotte, it's lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah, sounds exciting. Yeah. Never done a podcast before. Oh, you guys. It's cool. I think you might only be my third guest from America to which is which is cool. So I'm starting to Yeah. and broaden the horizon. Time. Is it there for you? Is it breakfast time? Yep, it is. It's 7am. Okay, can you same breakfast so actually got? Yeah, I'm Mark my moments by just what I'm going to be eating. Oh, that's cool. So you're in my right. So you're in Atlanta. Is that right? Yeah. Lana metro area. Yeah. Right. So that's like, that's a that's a big, big cities. And it is. I mean, we've lived in bigger. I'm actually from Southern California. And so I grew up in Orange County, just outside of Los Angeles, which to me was large. And I guess this it's not as big as LA but it is. It's you know, you have downtown and then it sprawls for quite a while. So yeah. Yeah. Lots of people. Can you give us a little bit trade to what you do? You're the sort of style of art that you may right now I'm almost exclusively digital. And it's, it's, I guess you would kind of classify it as illustrative. And I really enjoy like, retro style, like I draw a lot of inspiration from like, old illustrations, comics, ad art, stuff that, you know, people would would sell things with. I don't know why I think just because I'm a kid from the 80s and so that stuff is so I don't know. Comforting. Yeah. Old, old stuff. Yeah, rotary phones and that sort of thing. Like, yeah, yeah, that's so familiar and comfortable for me. Yep. So that, that kind of informs my style. But subject wise, I tend, I tend to kind of sit somewhere in kind of spiritual, but also like, fun. It's rough, because the style, like, I love spiritual art, and I love like symbolism, especially, it's kind of an obsession. For me. The challenge is that, when you when you want to sit in that space, it's almost like there's a requisite for what your art should look like, right? And, like, mine, almost maybe I feel like could be considered crass. If I want to approach some of those topics, because it's almost gross. Like, looking next to other people. I'm like, well, they have these gorgeous images of, you know, God or, yeah, handlers or whatever. And that's not what I do. I could, but that's not and it's funny, because I have that stuff in my home. And I love putting that kind of thing in my home. But that's not what I that's not how I think it's weird. It's almost like, a bit of a juxtaposition sort of thing. Like, yeah, it's a bit of, I don't know, yeah. Yeah. Because that's like, approaching the divine, from a very human way. Like, we're still we're animals, we're, we are very gross in our, in our behavior and our approaches. And, and that's, that's not necessarily anything to be ashamed of. And I think I'm trying to still find the balance of how can I? How can I approach those divine aspects of myself, while also recognizing that I'm still a human being, and that I have human experiences, and I'm very much a product of my time and my society? Yeah, absolutely. So that was like that, that's really reflected in the way that the Euro looks. It's like, it's very real. And it's, it's not, I don't wanna say sugar coated, but it's like, this is what it's like, this is what life's like, right now in 2020. Yeah. So really cool. So how did you get into Chintu? Yeah, I've always been a really creative person. I've always been a creative kid. My dad graduated from university in studio arts, he was an artist. But that was never anything he made a living off of. But he was like that point person in early childhood that introduced me to creativity and music was a big part of my childhood. And you know, it still is a part of our lives. I have a daughter, who is all she plays almost anything she touches, she can turn it into a musical instrument, and she's gonna graduate high school with a it's like a musical diploma, sort of, and. But like, so the creativity has always been part of me. And I was the kid that was always drawing and you know, the friends come to me, can you drive this, can you drive this and, but it wasn't something I was able to pursue at university, my my mom who resented my dad for being an artist. And having trouble finding jobs was like, I don't want you to do that you're gonna do this. And it was, it's an irony because mom didn't want any of us to go into the arts. And while we didn't, we also didn't get a job in the thing we went to school for either. So like, you need to be realistic about what you're expecting for your children. Because, like, just because you get a bachelor's degree in something does not mean that that's what you're going to be doing for the rest of your life. So it's a good lesson, I think, because it's, I feel like, I've know what it's like over there. But there's so much pressure here for kids to know what they're going to do when when they get like up to year 12. Where you're both here. It's like you have to feel like no one realistic to do. Yeah, like, and that's a common thing like it maybe it's just because we're products of a Western civilization where they're like, What do you want to be when you grow up? And, like, can't expect a child to know what that is? Or to understand what that means. And yeah, we'll have dreams that's fine, have dreams. But I'm like, we're not all going to be astronauts and we're not I'm going to be to Vinci or the president. And, and that's fine like I want, I want them to aspire to things, but then to also expect them to understand even at 18. What they're going to be doing, like, my, so my oldest is 18. She's a senior, she's going to graduate in five months. And so she thinks she wants to do architecture. And I'm like, you know, great, go do your generals, if you still want to do that. Yeah, go ahead and do that. But I'm, I'm leaving the room open for you to change your mindset real time. Yeah, I certainly did. That's the truth, isn't it? And when you get out there in the world, and you actually see what there is, it's like, you know, yeah, you don't even know what you don't know, when you get out there. Right? You don't even know. And, like, I remember, when I graduated, I was like, I want to, I want to do anthropology, because I love cultures and history and all that. And then I got into that department. And I was like, this is the driest thing I've ever seen. Like, my teachers were so boring. Like, I can't do this. To be stuck in. Like, this is not my cup of tea. And I and I married my husband while we were in school, and he's an accountant. And he's like, You should take an accounting class and like, Yeah, okay. And I took basic accounting, I'm like, No, that's not my style. Do you know, when you know, you know? Or you just, you know, by trial and error, you're like, No, that's not me either. I love that. So you started to you mentioned about your daughter's. He's 18. Tell us about your family. So we have four kids. We have three teenagers and a 20 month old. Yeah. So, um, our oldest three, we adopted all of them as infants in our 20s. And and then I got pregnant when I was 38 and had a baby at 39. So yeah, I have an 18 year old, a 16 year old, my son will be 14 next month and then the baby. And so that's, that's a fun dynamic. Like, it's not that bad. It. The thing I love about having the baby again, is that she brings up and reminds me of all the times with the other kids, which was nice, you know, because like it was so long. It was 12 years since I had had a baby. And I had forgotten a lot of those things. And so she'll do things I'll be like, Oh, we remember when, you know, my son did this or the other girls did this and like it just I feel I feel bad that like every single moment with her I'm just grabbing on to because I feel like she's probably the last one and I like often go to bed crying because I'm like, Oh, I've just missed this and I'm so sad that it's gonna go away soon. And my husband's like, what's the problem? Like, she's gonna go to school and a year and a half. He's like, you're gonna be okay. At the end of the day but isn't that nice? They like you say you, you sort of it's like you're appreciating every all these moments. Yeah, present and you're really experiencing everything. Like that's really lovely. Yeah, I regret that I wasn't as present for the older kids as I am for her. I didn't appreciate it when I was in my 20s. And I was, you know, trying to juggle three children close together. They're all they were all two years apart each of them and so I remember taking my oldest to school. I would walk her to kindergarten. She'd be like I had a double stroller. So I'd have the two girls in there and my son was like on my chest. And I would walk you know, like a mile to the school and people would look at me and their cars like what is she doing? Like fumbling all these children. And it was crazy times, like the one story that like one morning so my son is huge. He's so he's Tongan in Samoa and big boy. And he was a big boy at birth, but he learned how to crawl out of his crib at six months. And so I couldn't contain him at that point. And then naptime was like, well, you're just gonna sleep forever, because they can't keep you anywhere. So one morning, I remember he had crawled out of his crib, down the stairs into his sister's room. And suddenly, I'm still in bed, and I hear this screaming, and I run down there. And he had pooped on one of my daughter's beds. My oldest daughter, and my oldest daughter had rented the living room. She's cowering in the corner, like screaming. And then my other daughter who is like a, like a compulsory vomiter, like, started barfing, because it grossed her out. So kids craving one kid barfing, and another one who just pooped on the sheet. And my husband looks at the situation and he's like, I need to go to work. I'm like oh, my goodness. Oh, that's brilliant. Well, that's parenting in a nutshell, isn't it? So I hesitate to ask, but during that time, will you need to do any? Yeah. Not at that exact moment. But you know. So the creativity has evolved and changed over time, and it certainly accommodates to the situation. When I was with them, when they were little, there was a lot of I did like collage stuff, mosaics. I did a lot of quilting, like aplicadas, stuff like that. But it was also things like gifts and stuff for me or the home. And when see my son was for it was right before we left California. So my husband is he wasn't in public accounting. So he worked for a large accounting firm, out of Orange County, Los Angeles area. And we were there for eight years. And it was, it was a good life. But we certainly couldn't afford to give the kids the life. We wanted to give them there. And it was his job was so demanding. It was often 18 hour days. Oh, it was it was not. Yeah, it wasn't. When we got married. It wasn't this was what we wanted. And so we're sitting there reevaluating that with children. And we're like, you don't want to do it this way. And he he recognized he's like, you know, the thing I do enjoy is teaching the new recruits every year when they when they would go out. They would bring in new employees and they would train. And he's like, that's the part I love the most was teaching the new people. And so we decided to go to graduate school, in the middle of that. And so we took three children with us to Madison, Wisconsin, and he pursued his PhD so he could then teach so now that's why we're here in Georgia is he teaches in the business school, he teaches accounting. And that has been Wow, that was a tremendous challenge to to go through. That was definitely worth it because now he can take my son to football practices and be there and he can come to concerts with the girls and he can and this is the most time he has spent with one of the children ever at this age this little age like he missed a good chunk of the older kids early years because he wasn't around And so that's been nice. But I'm sorry. And that wasn't even really the answer to your question. But before, right before we left, right before we left California, I had started doing competitive chalk, mural competitions. California is like the perfect environment for that, because it's almost warm all year long. And the weather's nice, like, it's very rare that you don't have a wet season, certainly. And so we lived in Mission Viejo at the time, and they had a chalk festival. And I was like, I should try this. And it was so fun that I went out of my way to like, find other ones. And so I would do several year. And I did two with my dad in Salt Lake City. That was usually over the Father's Day weekend, which was really fun. I knew he would enjoy that. And then and oftentimes we are, I would win some of them which was validating, like, especially if they were a cash prize. So but that was something that I was able to do. When we were living in Wisconsin, it was a little more of a challenge, because part of the year you certainly can't be outside. But I remember kind of the beginning of the end of it, though, was when I drove I think it was three or four hours to Iowa. For one, and I, I want it but it was gift cards to the town that it was in. Oh, like I don't even live. I'll never be back. And I was like, Okay, I need to weigh like my costs and expenses for this like, because it was not just time, but it was like just money and time away from my children. And so yeah. I think things definitely picked up in Wisconsin, I had a good friends. Still a good friend, I just haven't been able to communicate with her as much since we've moved. But she was a designer for American Girl and the doll company. And she she made a Christmas card one year doing line Oh print. And I was so like, struck with that. That method, I was like, that looks like something I could do. And it was and I got into that couple years before we left Wisconsin. And that's when I actually started selling things was with that. And it was something I could do. I kept all the supplies in my basement next to the washer and dryer and I would go down there after kids would go to sleep and work or I would do it. Like if they were at school and I was off work or whatever. Then I would take a few hours and do that. The way that you draw now, I noticed on your on your socials, you talk a lot about using your iPad, like doing digital drawing. Yes. So it's like your practices evolve to suit. What's going to happen? Yeah, so the iPad. My husband bought me an iPad for Christmas in 20 I think it was the Christmas of 2019. So it was a Christmas I was pregnant. And I'm actually to back up a little. When I first got pregnant. I was so tired. And I couldn't do anything. Like I had, I had bought all the supplies to actually start screen printing. Because I wanted to start doing that. And I had made screens and I had all these things already. And I suddenly got very tired. I can't I didn't produce anything those entire almost nine months. I didn't do anything and and I know that sounds crazy and I I would wake up I'd be like how do people go to work? be pregnant? Like how did they show up at work? Because I had to take a nap every single day and I was lucky that I have that option. Like I'm just gonna lay You're down here and just take a three hour nap because I couldn't do it. And luckily, I was selling stuff at a local blue peak at the time. And they were like, oh, yeah, take the time you need. And that was really nice. So I bought the iPad, though. That was a game changer. But it took almost a year to figure out what I was doing. Because I didn't. I knew there were programs, and I didn't know what they were, and I know who to who to talk to. And so finally, I sat down and I, I got, I use procreate. And then I got a Skillshare subscription to learn how to use these things. Because I was like, I can't, I used to be able to pick things up. I learned how to use Adobe Photoshop, and I was like, 16 years old. And without tutorials before there were tutorials. And now I don't know if it's because I'm old. But I'm like, I I can't just I was it took me nine months of sitting here. And I was like, I don't know how to use this. Like, I would try and even even the the company's own little walkthrough how tos. I was like, No, I need I need a YouTube video or something. So finally I yeah, I just got Skillshare. And that that's, that's where it took off. So like, and I need to post something about this. Because looking at just what I had started doing last year in January, to now it's huge. I'm just being able to understand the medium. That was a huge learning curve. On Yeah, I love watching your little videos, we actually show how you. Hey, yeah, that's so cool. Because like, I'm not far at all. So I love I love seeing people draw and paint and yeah, that makes me happy. Yeah, it's, it's rough, because it's easy for me to share the videos from the iPad. The rough part is setting up a tripod to actually videotape me doing it because then I'm like, I gotta do this during nap time, when she's not around to like knock over the tripod. And so it's just like another I need to actually plan to do. Oh, no. So at the moment when it comes to creating is it it is it's literally around naptimes bedtimes is that so Hey. So it used to be that first year of her life before she started moving. I had a baby in one hand and the iPad in the other hand, and I would draw, and I would hold her and it was very like, I was like I could do this forever was great. And then she started moving, and then things got a little more challenging. So now like sometimes she'll get distracted for an hour, like we'll sit and watch a show or whatever. And I'll just kind of grab my iPad and draw. But usually it's when she's napping or she's sleeping. That's when like, serious stuff gets done, especially if I want to record anything I'm doing. It just has to happen when she's She's asleep. Can't do it when she's awake. Very grabby. Oh, I work in childcare. So I completely can relate to the age. But I mean, the medium is great, because like, I realized after she was born, and I had my studio still, everything was still out. And I looked at it and I said you know, I don't think I can do this for a while, like I can't come back to printing for a while because it's just not conducive to the current situation that I'm in. So like I packed it all up. I also started oils. It started oils. And then I was like, Yeah, this isn't gonna happen for a couple years. So I just packed it all up and put it away. And it's fine though, because I can take the iPad anywhere and cleaning that up as a matter of a split second, I can just close it and She can't get hurt. I don't lose anything. It doesn't hurt the house. It doesn't hurt her. So, yeah, it's just it works perfectly. Can you see yourself going back to that more, you know, hands on physical stuff I do. And I want to I am putting a piece together actually, for an organization that is like a physical piece, it's going to be like a mosaic. And that's it's just rough going, because it's something I have to keep away. And I only can do it when no one is around me. So yeah, just limit my time. And it's also tough, because by the end of the day, I'm exhausted. And I'm like, I just can't do it. Yeah, that's the thing. There's only there's only so much that you've got to give isn't there? You can't have too far or you just, you just crack unfortunately. What I wanted to ask, I was looking at your amazing pace, protection. As soon as I saw that, I just thought all these things came to mind. Like, I thought this lady knows about the Madrid She must know about yoga. So this is cool. But just the way that it looks, it's so I'll have to put a link for people to have a look at this page. Because it's just incredible. Like you you're basically linking something that's 1000s and 1000s of years old, with something incredibly relevant. That's happening right now with with Derek Yeah, can you can you tell us a bit more about the piece? Oh, that makes me feel good. So yeah, like, so Yoga is a big part of my life. Even though like right now it's hard to even get to but, um, so I felt so one, I guess, this year, kind of like a personal goal was just to really start doing stuff that spoke to me that that could say something that I couldn't really say with words, and, but that also was putting parts of myself out there. And because for me, spiritually, I come from a lot of places, and yoga feeds and a lot of that. But I think these last two years, and it's been rough, because I had a baby at the beginning of the pandemic. And it's already challenging to be a parent of a small child. But then you're a parent of a small child, and you just don't know what's going on. Like, like, I understand the science, and I understand only as much as, you know, any epidemiologist is going to share with me and, and put it in terms that I understand. It's, it's scary and, and my my baby can't be vaccinated yet. And so, like trying to navigate what feels like a brand new world. That's very scary. I feel like I need to draw from the things that I've known for as long as I can remember that. I feel comforting. And I feel like give me peace inside. And pairing that with what I do understand logically will keep me safe as much as it can, you know, and it's like, every day I have this kind of have, you know, ever we all have these mental conversations with ourselves all day about, you know, how am I going to keep going? When I don't really know what tomorrow is going to be like, I don't really know. Am I going to be safe? Is my family going to be safe? Is my country going to be safe? Like yeah, it's it's an exhausting environment to live in. And I, the people I feel most sad for are my teenagers who are going to be remembering this for the rest of our lives. I don't think my baby will, I hope. I would hope that she'd be resilient enough to do This will be normal for her. This, this isn't she won't know any different, but my older kids do. And I've seen how this has been a real struggle for them. Like, I had to get everybody in therapy, the last year, I had to get everybody on medication this last year. And so for me, this concept of protection, it's, we have to arm ourselves with everything we know, in order to move forward into the unknown. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was amazed at some of the other pieces I saw on your website, you sort of looking at day to day things like there's things about anxiety, self love, postpartum, the garden is just every day experience bass. Yeah. Yeah, and those are, those were all part of a series I did for a gallery in Utah. Yeah, I mean, because when you're a mom, when you're a parent, I feel like the world kind of shrinks for you, right? And you're focusing on just that, that one little person, or, you know, maybe a couple of little people. And you are so involved with all of their needs, because their needs are immediate, and they rely on you completely for everything, and, but it's been fun to be present in that this time. Like, you're not to really worry about all the other things maybe I want to do, because I know I'm gonna get to do them again. And I like, really recognizing how short these moments are with her right now. I appreciate all these little things. And so she just loves walking down the street. And so we'll go out to the street, and she loves to look up at the planes that fly by. And she, she tells me about the birdies that are in the trees. And she loves like, people, some people still have Christmas decorations up and she'll want to go look at the Christmas decorations. And like just appreciating all those little moments. And being able to be a little kid with her is very soothing and just simplifies. Like I just kind of keeps my brain calm. Because yeah, like, especially, it feels like right now it's so isolating, which we've tried to be so careful. I don't get a lot of social interaction. And so it's when when you're isolated, you tend to get more depressed. And there's a lot of self talk that ends up being, you know, not, I mean, maybe negative, but certainly not helpful or productive. And so, I mean, parenting is so isolating, but so is the was living in. And it's like, I don't know. I like to be honest about all those feelings. But also recognizing the they're not forever. They don't have to be forever. Yeah, it's, it's hard because when you're depressed, or when you're, you're living in this heightened sense of anxiety for months at a time. It feels like it's just gonna, it's never gonna end. It's never gonna end. But I do I know that that does. And so I mean, I've only do things at depression for over 20 years, and we have taken medication for it, and I still do. Well, the hardest parts about being pregnant was I couldn't, and I had to get off it as quickly as and safely as I could. But I was I was a mess when I was pregnant. And I mean, I loved being pregnant, which is so crazy. That like you're miserable, but you're also just so in love and like I would love to be pregnant again. But I also recognized that I was a mess. And like I just somedays just, I couldn't get out of bed. I was I was just so deeply depressed or was just so anxious. And that was before the pandemic. I don't know how I could be pregnant now. Women do it. The topic of mum guilt. Do you? Do you have any thoughts on that term? That topic? Yeah, I've been thinking about that. So like, I think that's a real thing. But only because we've made it. Right. Like, I feel like it's such a product of our society. Yeah. Like, especially in societies that don't serve women. And, and I can, I don't know, Australia's system very well. So I'm not going to speak at all to you. Mostly just to mine where we, the one thing I've noticed, okay, so the big eye opening thing for me about this pandemic was it truly revealed how much my country's economy relies on the free labor of women. And I say that because of the way it went down when schools couldn't meet. And people had to quit their jobs. And it was mostly women who quit their jobs. Because someone needed to be home with all these kids who had to go to school. And what hurts is no one's said anything about that in the government's like, no one's recognized that plenty of women are saying, Do you see how like, crippled the economy is because you are relying on half of us to leave our workplace and stay home to make things move forward, as best they can. I and so certainly, when you have a system like that, that doesn't value, the the work and the impetus of half of the population, of course, we're gonna get guilt, we're asked to raise human beings, and also contribute to society as if those two things are different. As if, as if parenthood isn't a contribution to society, it's not valued, because there's never been a monetary value placed on it. But it's obvious now. Because no one noticed that people are working at home to raise human beings for the society without any kind of financial compensation or recognition. And, and then we're punished when that job is done. And we want to go back into the workforce. were punished because we had been home the whole time, like, Well, we've certainly been doing things like, yeah, we've been economizing. We've been transporting, we have been, like, we've been doing accounts and receipts, like, can you cannot tell a parent, that they're not doing stuff for the economy, just because they're a parent. So like, of course, you're going to have guilt in that kind of situation. I just feel like now. And especially now, I'm like, I am not at all guilty for staying home right now. And I'm not at all guilty about taking time for myself when I need to. Like I I'm, I'm fortunate enough that we don't need two incomes right now. We did when we're in Wisconsin, and my husband was in graduate school. And I worked I was I worked at an elementary school and I worked on a farm. I did that for over three years. And that was rough. And I mean, it wasn't just that like we also needed government assistance for food like because we we were students and we have three children. I just feel like We need to pull ourselves out of our heads, even though our society may tell us or subconsciously tell us that we are not valuable as parents. That's not at all true. Because without us, this society would fall won't even exist. I feel like every parent needs to take comfort and pride in that. But also, it should move us to maybe request more, demand more. I feel like, what, what gets me so fired and angry right now is that, like, my government is trying so hard to pass things to help families and it's not happening and I'm, I'm so mad. I'm like, this has like, exacerbated and exposed all of the worst parts of our system that we've been relying on. And we're not doing anything about it. Like, it's obvious. It's clear, like the numbers are there, but they're not doing anything about it. And it's, I think, I think it's Meg Conley, she's a writer, if I should send you her stuff. She's amazing. And she has talked about this a lot. And it's, it just like puts fire in my mom bones. Like, it's just this is this is not the podcast for that I'm sorry. Not so good. Don't ties in. I mean, this is, this is what you know, your thoughts and your opinions, that's what influences your your work. So you know, yeah, what I mean, and it to be a parent, like, you're, I feel like you're in the trenches of economies. Like it's just that that influences every part of your life as a parent. So the other topic I love to hear about is identity. So that idea that I mean, we've sort of we've sort of talked touched on it briefly, in this last the last topic we spoke about, but when you become a mum, that's it. That's all you are. You're just a mum, you're not. Did you ever feel like we're at the moment feel like when we as a mother, what happens to Charlotte, who you were before, for sure, especially when I was a young mom, like I wanted to be a mom, like, obviously, we went out of our way to be parents, because we adopted, but that still happened. Like I still. You're, you're worrying about someone else all day. And you're meeting all their needs all day long. It, it feels almost like you're disappearing as a human being. And I, I felt that and I get that argument too. But I do have to swing back to now how quick that time is, like, in the moment, it feels like eternity, like, the days are long. But the years are so short. And the roughest part for me. While it was so hard when they were little, and I felt lost sometimes was when my son went to school, though. Because then I was like, What am I going to do with my life? Like? It's not like they don't need me now. But it's a different need, like the kind of self sufficient and they're going to school for a good chunk of the day. Like, what am I going to do? And that is when the art got pretty intense for me, because I needed to explore that for myself. And I certainly had other responsibilities, like I had to go to work and stuff to jobs I hated. Like, I loved the farm. I loved and that was that's a job I would always take. But working in an elementary school. I hated that job. And the kids were cute, but if you ever want insight to like another failed system of a large government, public education like I will I will die on the lines for any teacher who works in public education. And because those people are underpaid, and they are unprepared for all of the things that happen there, I was, I was verbally and physically abused by children for several hours a day. And it's like, no adult is prepared for this. Like, they don't prepare you even even as a parent, I was there and I'm like, How can you be this way? Like, I understand you're someone's baby, why are you so mean to me? I needed that job. So the art, though, has been cathartic, therapeutic, and an opportunity for me to come back in touch with myself. And especially that inner child work that I felt like really needed to be done. I had a pretty abusive home wife as a kid. And, like, kind of sorting that out for myself, and still doing it. The art is what gets me through that. Like that's. And I know, even people who aren't creative or don't, don't turn to creativity, to help themselves through that, that sense of sell. Like, there's always something right. And and I'm not saying that work is the answer. Because it isn't always. But I think maybe maintaining the perspective that our life moves in seasons and cycles. And it's, it's easy to say, especially as a female, where we we literally have a season and a cycle every month or whatever. But knowing that our life if we can, if we are lucky enough can be long. And there are things I'm doing now, I'd never imagined I was doing 20 years ago, and I'm sure there will be things I'm doing in 20 years that I've never even thought of like maybe I'll I'll maybe I'll go back to graduate school. I don't know, like, the their possibilities are endless. And I think we don't need to necessarily peg ourselves into one little box. Because we're always growing, we're always changing, just like our children. And that never stops if we're if we're lucky enough. We never have to stop growing. We never have to stop learning. And just because we're not the same person we were 20 years ago doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Maybe it's a good thing. Yeah. I like that. That's good. Yeah, and I like that you articulate that we're always growing and changing just like our children like you. And that and being that sort of ties into being really present, experiencing the experiencing the moment and then knowing that that will pass and then you'll have another moment. Yeah, it's a really good way of things. And I guess that helps to stop people like feeling really overwhelmed. Because you can be stuck in a moment and be like, Oh my gosh, this is just so it's never gonna end well, you know, but it's like, actually, it's okay. Because yeah, for sure. I mean, and that's what I love. The basics of yoga, breathing and your mind, you can't stop your mind from thinking you can't stop thoughts from coming, right. But if you just focus on your body, breathing for a minute, just just think about your lungs, filling with air and coming out again, just being in that moment with your body. Recognizing that this is what you're doing, and that's okay. And it's hard like I suffered terrible panic attacks. When we were preparing to move down here and after, like, I had thyroid disease for over 10 years, and then my thyroid started to make some thyroxin again, and I became hyper to the point where I was having panic attacks and, and then when you have panic attacks, you feel like you're dying, like you don't really understand what's going on with your body until you've had one. And then. So then when I was having them, I recognize, okay, something's definitely going on with my body, and I had to go to the doctor and get that taken care of. But in those moments, like when you are overstimulated, you're panicked, or you feel like you can't get out of that moment. It is hard to focus on just breathing. But that's like the only thing you need to do. And like, I'm not a doctor, and I'm not a yoga teacher or anything, I just, I just know that if you can just try and focus on that basic thing that keeps you alive in that moment. And then do it the next moment, and do it the next moment, like helping helping my children, you know, this last year, like overcome real mental health challenges. reminding them that you know what, it was a bad day today. It was a really bad day. Let's go to bed. And we'll wake up in the morning. And we'll just try again. You know, and that's all you can do. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. And that's really good to like tools and skills to be able to pass on to your children that you know how to manage. As I heard, it's similar experience with my eldest this year. He's four, Lizzie now 13. So last year, we started my school here that just complete overwhelm where you can't Yeah, you can't think you can't process stuff. You just get in this panic state that just come back to you breathing, we would call this the square breathing. So you live in for for four hours before and just just bring yourself back to the present moment what's actually happening? You know, it's such a powerful, like, it's so simple, that it's ridiculous, but it's just, you know, yeah, it's so powerful. And you forget that it's there. You forget that you've got this breath. It's keeping you alive. You don't even have to think about it, you know? Yeah. Because if you don't have to think about it, it's a really, it's a really good tool. When it comes to you, yeah. Probably not so much your littlest one. But for your older kids, do you feel it's important for you that they see your contribution that you're making? What you're putting out to the world? Yeah. I mean, I think one's definitely important that they see that I am taking time to do something that I like. Because I think that's like vital to maintaining, you know, yourself as an adult. You need to be able to have those times to do that. Even if it's just watching television. But being productive, not that your value is based on productivity, but doing something you enjoy and having people's to do that. I think that's valuable. And I think that helps them because then that gives them permission to do the things that they want to do like my son who loves football right now. And like, more than pretty much anything else. And and we have had to have talks about look, I still need you to work on school. I still need you to focus on that because that's kind of important. I love that you love football but I also need you to get a good education. Then Then my my daughter who loves Music and, and, and I think we all we all try and support each other in the things that we love. And I mean, if you're lucky enough, you'll get to spend your life even making money doing the thing you like. But even if you know, that's going to be something that's going to be part of your life forever, that's gonna be enriching and therapeutic and help you just help you feel you like you yourself. You know, I mean, it just feel comfortable in yourself in your skin. Doing what it is that you like, and and then for them, they're all on social media do which is fun, and come to me and be like, Mom, you swore on Instagram today, I'm like, Yeah I did this, I have people watching me, but then they, they'll see the stuff that I put out there, and they'll see they'll even watch, you know, me explain things about it. And it's not like we have those conversations about my work at all. But, um, I think it's valuable because when you see other people doing things they like, and then also getting an insight into the way they think about it or, or how they're thinking about it. Something maybe you'd never thought about. I mean, that's what I love about social media is that I get to meet people I would not have otherwise ever met in my life. And I get to learn about them and what's makes them tick. And, and I have like, these relationships with some of these people that are so like, dear to me. And like I think about them when I'm not on social media and like, I wonder if they're doing okay today or, and that. That's, that's super sustaining, especially right now when I don't get out to meet people, and I don't get to do that. But it also it just kind of opens my mind to people I've never met or people I have not experienced like, and getting to know them. Like I love that and learning things about them helped me change my behaviors like this last year. I've had like a hard time, for the last couple of years, celebrating American Thanksgiving. And really listening to indigenous people talk about what that holiday means to them has definitely helped me reflect on what I can do in my own life, to better support them and to to be the type of friends that I would like for myself. You know, like I want to be a friend to them and and i i Just what changes do I need to make for myself to be the person I'd like to be? Yeah, so some real sort of some navel gazing I suppose. Just so see ya for sure Yeah. I, I've had this goal for a while actually to start putting out some illustrations for children's books. And that's like, I really hope I can get that underway this year. Like, I think about it, and I think about it and then like another project comes up or whatever. And so it just never gets to my plate. So I, I want to do that. But the other thing I really interested in doing is illustrating some I don't know if you've ever heard of Howard then? He is I think so. Yeah. So he's a social scientist. He wrote The People's History of the United States and it's it's a lot more comprehensive history of our country that is often not taught in schools. I think it's actually a college level book, but I read it and I was like, I love this book so much and There is a children's primary school equivalent that they created. It's like the Howard's in education project. And they have like, and I had bought the children's version for my kids, but it's not like a children's version. It's more like high school level, I think. So I would love to maybe start doing some illustrations of those stories. Yeah, even just to share on social media, like, I love that. It's it's tragic that social media is now like a default education system. But at the end, it's tricky, right? Because there is that tremendous possibility of misinformation and disinformation. And like, there's stuff that definitely is absolutely bonkers. That's not real that's out there. But if we can somehow teach each other how to find reliable, adequate sources of information and share those, I can only think that's benefits everybody, right? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's a lot of education to be had. I had decided, at the end of last year that, like, I really need to start moving towards people and bodies like, I can do them. I just don't because I'm so I don't know what tone to strike yet with them. And so it's like, well, I'm gonna start with hands. And I know mudras. And I know symbols. Well, and I'm going to start with that. So there will probably be more like, protection coming out. Yeah. Yeah. Look forward to that and be awesome. That's not the word. You know what I mean? It's gonna be one thing. I do know what you mean. It to at least two big words. You know, that's all right. I'm about I'm about to wind down mentally. Like it's about time for me to make dinner and yeah. After dinner, I'm like, Alright, I got about two hours before I can put the kid down. And then I'm just going to ease into my bed and like, listen to podcasts and draw like it really is really lovely. It is good. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Edge to Alice Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Rebecca McMartin Australian podcaster + mental health advocate S3 Ep80 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Today I welcome Rebecca McMartin to the podcast, Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia, but sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller and mum of a little boy, nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet, and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being 'creative' or good enough. Following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling and start Perinatal Stories Australia - a podcast, blog, and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations, Rebecca hopes to increase awareness, to advocate for maternal mental health causes, to reduce stigma, to inform listeners about the support services available, to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. This episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders including anxiety, depression, PTSD, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Connect with Rebecca website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website Gidget House Subscribe to the podcast weekly email here - never miss an episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in. Today. It is lovely to welcome you into my studio here in Mount Gambier in South Australia. As I'm recording this today, it's a beautiful 22 degrees Celsius outside. That's about 70 and Fahrenheit. If the sun is shining, there's a light breeze, there's not a cloud in the sky. And you can probably hear the birds are singing. I thought I'd leave my window open and give you a little taste what it feels like to be in my part of the world. Today I'm welcoming Rebecca McMahon to the podcast. Rebecca is a podcaster and digital creator based in Sydney, Australia. But she sees herself first and foremost as a storyteller, and mom of a little boy nicknamed Pudge. Rebecca was always drawn to reading and writing as a creative and therapeutic outlet and studied several creative writing and journalism courses in the hopes of pursuing her passion. Ultimately, she gave up this pursuit due to the fear of not being creative, or being good enough, following an acute mental health crisis when her son was born, Rebecca returned to writing as a way to process her pain and grief. It was from this experience that she decided to harness the power of storytelling, and start perinatal stories Australia, a podcast blog and social media platform for Australian women to share their lived experiences with perinatal mental ill health, which she works on between motherhood moments. Through holding space for these vulnerable conversations. Rebecca hopes to increase awareness to advocate for maternal mental health causes to reduce stigma to inform listeners about the support services available to improve mental health literacy, and to make sure no mother feels alone in her struggles. Please be aware this episode contains mentions of many mental health disorders, including anxiety, depression, post traumatic stress disorder, panic attacks, as well as birth trauma and grief. Thanks again for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for coming on. Rebecca. This is a real pleasure to meet you and to speak to you today. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I think I followed your podcast for a while now. So I felt very like privileged Whitney, like sent me a message saying if I'd like to come on, and I was like, Yes, please. It's lovely to hear. Thank you. So you're in Sydney. Yeah. What's it like up there today? Is it is it? It's disgustingly hot. But I mean, I can't complain. It's been terrible weather all year up until about a week ago started to feel like summer finally. So I guess, you know, you get what you wish for and like we've been the same. It's just we've had no sort of just nice average weather. It's been raining extremely cold. Yep. Or then we get 39. So it's like I said, I can't wait till it gets hot and then we can start whinging about how to exactly, exactly. I need something new to whinge about you know? Yeah, so your mom and Your Podcast, you've been very active on your social media, sharing your your story and your journey with your perinatal stories Australia, can you can you tell us all about that and what inspired you to start that whole experience for people? I mean, you know, perinatal stories Australia, it's it's a platform really to share stories about perinatal mental health, you know, what we go through? I mean, yes, there's contentious arguments in the community about whether perinatal anxiety or depression are actually different from non perinatal anxiety, depression, I feel like it is. And I felt like we needed a space to talk about that to share stories about that, because going through mental illness itself is hard enough, going through it as a mom during pregnancy and or postpartum is just on another level. And that all came about, you know, I've had a history with anxiety, I've had a history with depression. And I, you know, naively thought that, you know, if this does happen to me postcard, and then you know, I've gone through it before I'll get through it again, it'll be right. But you know, as we learn, it doesn't discriminate. You can be a psychologist or social worker, you could be a doctor, you could have all this experience and personal history or knowledge of mental health or mental ill health, and it can still hit us like a ton of bricks. And that's what happened to me, I, I guess I was in denial about how anxious I was during my pregnancy. And, you know, I was so focused on postpartum and wanting to control my postpartum in order to protect myself from depression, or anxiety, or psychosis, which I'd learned about during pregnancy, and it scared the absolute shit out of me. But yeah, I was in denial about the fact that my anxiety was really there in pregnancy, and it was getting worse and worse and worse, at the start, I kind of kind of brushed it off, because, you know, I could still go to work, I was still functioning. So therefore, it was okay. You know, we tell ourselves those things, and you know, it's fine. And it'll be fine. When he you know, my baby's here, it's just hormones, you know, we go through that we dismiss ourselves. And my anxiety just got worse and worse, to the point that I wasn't leaving the house. And I know, that's such a stereotype. But I was having panic attacks every day. And I, I developed this fear of birth, which became pathological and even I was just missing myself, like, all everyone's scared of birth, and I'd taken all the classes, you know, all the calmbirth classes and wanting to be prepared, and I was originally feeling confident about birth. And then I wasn't, then I was just convinced I was going to die. And so that anxiety just took hold, I couldn't move, I couldn't go to work without bursting into tears couldn't leave the house couldn't make decisions. And it just the closer and closer it got to birth, the more and more it felt like I'm getting closer and closer to death. So that just became obviously a very horrible, horrible experience. But again, I just kept thinking, oh, when he's here, when the bus over, it will be fine. Obviously doesn't happen. You know, we I mean, mental illness in pregnancy is so under diagnosed, and so brushed off because we're so focused on postpartum. Yeah, and, you know, unfortunately, if you don't treat it in pregnancy, it actually gets us into a spot of like, you know, though, shocked to me, but I'm sure a shock to a lot of people I've spoken to a lot of mothers who said the same thing, you know, it popped up in pregnancy, but all hormones, it'll get better. And it doesn't because you're then thrown into this whole new situation with a whole new human who you have to, you know, you have to look after them so that they can survive and Yeah, unfortunately for me, I will, unfortunately but I I ended up booking a planned cesarean because I just the thought of going through labor and not panicking. I just couldn't see myself doing that. And you know, I guess the C section wasn't exactly a walk in the park I wasn't looking forward to that either. But there was a bit more certainty and a bit more control and the thought of going through labor and ending up in an emergency sixth section anyway because I wasn't able to control my anxiety. I made that decision and you know, it may have been me and you know, your coping skills you think okay, if that's something that you're scared, okay, just kind of tune it out a little bit. And so I was in the surgery and I I was in the room, my mind wasn't in the room. And you know, that led to something that I wasn't expecting, which was actually birth trauma. I did get diagnosed with postpartum PTSD and from that, I think that dissociation So yeah, that took me by surprise because in theory On paper, I had a very textbook birth, I lost minimal blood, everything was okay. Everyone was so lovely to my obstetrician, the midwives, I was even allowed my social worker in that room because everyone in that room knew how anxious I was. And they were doing everything to make sure I was comfortable and safe and okay. But I was still scared. And that anxiety in late pregnancy just obviously manifested and became crisis point within a few days of my son's birth. So I couldn't sleep. Anytime I tried to close my eyes, I would, I would have nightmares. And it would just jolt me, you know. So for days, I was having like red flashing firework scary images in front of my eyes, and I was petrified. So I was already anxious in pregnancy, this then just scared the shit. Obviously, you know, and then you've got a baby to look after. And I developed well, I learned that I had OCD my whole life, but it was very mild. It then obviously became a bit more acute. At this point in time, everything just kind of bubbled up. It was, you know, the anxiety were full crisis mode, there was the PTSD, there was rapid onset of OCD, there was a lot going on. And within a few days of my son's birth, we were admitted to a mother and baby psychiatric hospital because I was so distressed and I wasn't sleeping. And yeah, that's obviously not the story, I thought I'd tell about my own motherhood, that's not the story. You know, here I am thinking, Oh, I've had experience with mental ill health. You know, I can see my psychologist, you know, I've got skills, all of that went out the window. And I was absolutely at rock bottom. And, you know, this is someone me who is comfortable talking about my mental health who's had that experience. I can only imagine going through that. And you haven't seen a psychologist before. You haven't. I didn't even know that there was such a choice was and I especially didn't know that there were any for mothers and babies. This was all intimidating as well. So I mean, that turned out to be the best thing I've ever done in my life. Obviously, at the time, I didn't think that I was, I was terrified. Because this just felt like another thing I'd failed, or, you know, I was crazy. I was broken, I had no reason to be there. You know, there are women who are single parents, or they've gone through a very traumatic birth, or they've, you know, they're victims of domestic violence, or for whatever reason, I thought, You know what, I'm coming from a place of privilege. I shouldn't be feeling this, I must be broken. I must be crazy. You know, you, you kind of say things to yourself, like, Well, someone else has a better reason for this. It's clearly I'm just broken. No, and yeah, yeah, we look for those reasons. And when we can't find it, we then blame ourselves even more. Which is ridiculous, isn't it? Because there's we have absolutely no control, no control whatsoever on how on all of this stuff. Yeah. And yeah, sure, you know, maybe if my anxiety had been managed, better in pregnancy, and you know, the hormones, you know, maybe there was something more we could do. But at the end of the day, it doesn't discriminate. It's in my psychopathy, or my psychology, or, you know, it just it was going to happen. And I think a lot of people had to validate that for me is that, you know, with your history, something like this was going to happen, maybe not 16, and it obviously just snowballed out of control. But, you know, and how lucky am I that I was able to go to that Mother Baby Unit, I say this a lot, but I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that, you know, my son and I were allowed to be admitted together. That's the whole point. You know, the mother gets treated, while still prioritizing that mother baby diet, making sure you know, mom and Baba together and i My heart breaks for women who have to go to, you know, the emergency department and they're separated from their Bob for days or weeks. And you know, they're in a place where they can't have visitors. And I mean, this was in the middle of COVID lockdown in Sydney as well. So I was lucky my husband was able to stay as well because you know, they prioritize that family unit. We were locked in this little hospital. But again, being a mum in a general, you know, a public hospital or whatever with an emergency department in that psych unit not being allowed visitors your phone's taken off, you kind of thing I just My heart breaks and like I said, I am so lucky, so fortunate that I was able to attend the only one in New South Wales at that time. Know, I guess that's to answer your question. That's where perinatal stories Australia came out because like I said, this wasn't the story of motherhood. I was excited acting. And despite my knowledge and my experience, this all took me by surprise. And there was so much that I learned about mental health, specifically maternal mental health. And I just thought we don't talk about this. You know, it wasn't until I started talking to, you know, family extended friends, that people were like, Yeah, my sister's been there, or you're my auntie went to that hospital. People knew about it, but we don't talk. And what a disservice we're doing to mothers, by not talking openly about this by maybe, you know, they will then feel ashamed. Like, I'm clearly broken, I had to go to a psychiatric hospital, I'll never talk about this in my life. And I thought, I don't, I don't want that I don't want this to just be a bad memory, I want to do something with it. I want to tell these stories, my own and other women's so that there are mums out there potentially going through this who don't think they're broken, they don't think they're alone, and that they can potentially learn about some of the options available. You know, when you're in that moment, or that moment that, you know, crisis point, you feel like there is no help hope there is no help. There is nothing that will save you. And to know that, you know, it's not just necessarily going to a counselor, it could be antidepressants, it could be a psychiatric hospital, it could be seeing a social worker, it could be there's an occupational therapist, there are so many different pathways to receiving help are a combination of all of these, you know, whether you go down the line of potentially doing therapy like the eye movement, desensitization reprocessing, so EMDR whether you do that, or whether you go down the line of TMS, so the transcranial magnetic? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know the acronym at the top of my head. But there's so many options, and they sound scary. But then when you actually talk to women and hear their experience of it, it becomes less and less foreign. And you start to feel a little bit more of that hope. So that was my goal. That was my goal with the podcast. And it took me it's taken me a year now to actually release the episodes. I only released my first episode six weeks ago, but I've been thinking about it and working on the social media stuff, and just trying to, I guess, build that community, but also feel a little bit more confident, because I have no idea I'm doing, let's be honest, I'm not a podcast, I still don't see myself as that. I don't see myself as a creative. So that in itself is something I'm still trying to negotiate with myself. So yeah, me being me, I want to be great at what I do. So I didn't want to release an episode. Like, you know, I had to build it up and had to learn and I had to teach myself because I didn't want to get too excited. I wanted to make sure I did it. Right. Yeah, I worked on the social media stuff just as a little as a starting point. So that was a space. And it still is, you know, for advocacy for raising awareness for education for sharing some parts of my story, some of those personal bits and pieces. And now obviously, that the podcasts been released, I'm sharing the stories of those moms who've gone through that, which is phenomenal. And I'm so grateful that they've been open and honest about those experiences, because the amount of women who have messaged saying, you know, I didn't know that this was an option I or I've gone and booked in to see my doctor, I'm actually going to ask for help now. Yeah, sorry. I just get shivers that it's yes, I can totally resonate with that. I think that's just the way I sort of see it is like not everybody is capable of sharing. And that's fine. So it's, it's totally okay. The people that are I sort of feel like it's it's your I don't know what the word is. You're not obliged to do it. But if you know how to do it, do it because it just helps so many people and you have no idea like you said until people talk about it you don't know who in your life you already know or I've met that has had experiences similar or can learn from your experiences like you were saying about people go oh Jeepers, that's raise something in May. I'm going to do something about it. It's so powerful and I just think like Good on you because it's it is vulnerable to share. What is the definition of the perinatal time period so perinatal is pregnancy to a year postpartum technically that is the medical definition, I'm of the opinion and with some other people I've met on Instagram, but you know, it could also be preconception, you know, if you're going through infertility or loss, that doesn't discount, it's not that you shouldn't be included because you don't technically meet that pregnancy and postpartum one definition, I still include it. But I mean, on a technicality, it is that time period between pregnancy and one year postpartum. And that's when you are most vulnerable to a mental illness as a woman, you are never more vulnerable than in that time period in your life yes. When you talked about having been able to go to the hospital to admit yourself and your baby, I didn't know those plates existed either. When I went through my experience with my second child, I was offered to be admitted to hospital, but it would have meant that it was only for me and not baby. So I chose not to. Because I felt that it was more important for me to be with my child, because I actually had this feeling that he was going to help me heal. I just had this really, I don't know what it was a feeling that I had to keep him close to me. And I think that's what deep helped me get through it. Whereas with my first child, I was always pushing him away and pushing him away. And that's the thing too, I think, even though we do have these, these mental health issues, it can be so different with the each child that you have. Exactly. Which is was my experience. Yeah, it's it's a weird, weird thing, the brain and the way our bodies work. So when I want to go back to when you were pregnant? Yeah. And you talked about having your you said it was your social worker, I think, yeah. So you had support during your pregnancy. And so me being me and wanting to be in control and prepare for postpartum, I did go through a very informal postpartum planning, it was my way of being in control. And really, it was just a symptom of my anxiety. But it worked out well in the sense that I had, I had reached out to Gidget foundation, so digit house, they have their free talk therapy, during pregnancy and postpartum. So I reached out and I got on the waitlist for that. And I was able to speak to a psychologist throughout my pregnancy and postpartum one who was obviously well versed in maternal mental health. And through my obstetrician, she was phenomenal. I know so many people have not so great experiences I had, I had a wonderful one who was constantly checking in on my mental health and, okay, so at the hospital, I gave birth, she referred me to the social worker. So it's an obstetric social worker who's part of the hospital, my OB referred me through there, just just to make sure that I had like a safety net, just in case. And so I went to speak to that social worker just once give her a rundown of my history. It wasn't until we got closer to birth, that I was scared of the birth that my OB coordinated with her to be present at the time of the birth. And then obviously, she became such a key part in my postpartum my early postpartum while I was in hospital having that acute episode, she was the one who got me into the mother and baby unit, which I didn't even know existed. So I'm, I had that safety net in a way, which, you know, again, I cannot imagine where I would be. I know where I'd be. I don't want to imagine it. If it weren't for her, or even my OB to actually put me in contact with her, someone who knows maternal mental health and knows the services and support systems that are available to catch you when you fall. So, yeah, it's when I was saying before, I'm from Gambia, we're a small town. They say we're, we're the second largest city, and I say city in inverted commas. Because we're not a city. We're we're a large country. 10 second largest outside of Adelaide, like in Australia, which is quite scary. I mean, it is. Yeah. Got it. You can't compare the City of South Australia today via the capital city. Which is kind of nice to do. But yeah, I had no idea what's Ever since we had or didn't have, I just presumed we really didn't have anything down here. And it wasn't until that I needed them that all of a sudden you discover all this stuff. And I sort of I didn't have when, when my first child, I was sort of diagnosed after the fact, a few years later of having personnel depression, because I basically slipped through the cracks, because I wasn't giving them the answers that they needed for the takeoff checklist. Basically, I didn't fit the criteria. And unfortunately, there was wasn't the, you know, the services or the right people at the right time to ask questions, always really struggling. And it's not just because basically, I was trying to justify it. I was like, Oh, I'm just having a bad day. You know, I just haven't had a lot of sleep. I was in complete denial, and was my husband that said to me, I think you've got that thing that they talked about it. Any NATO class, I'm like, No, I don't I've just, you know, it's just a crap day. But it wasn't just a crap day. And it was really funny A Few Years Later. Not funny, but, you know, ironic using my gynecologist who was I kept saying, you know, between my babies, because I was having my Rainer, and then having that removed and all that and, and he said, Oh, yeah, sounds like you had some postnatal depression, or that's something that could have been solved with one, one tablet a day. And I just went off for God's sake. Just the other night, it was not that he was belittling, it was basically saying we could have fixed that we could have. Actually, nobody realized, you know? Yeah, and so then it was really good. When I had my second child. Like you were saying about having things in place, mine was a little different. Because I don't know, it was seven years between my children. And I had this idea that I was going to be fine. Yeah, it's like denial again. And when I was pregnant, because I don't know, my pregnancy hormones kept me right up here. I was cracking along, everything was great. I was journaling about all the things I do differently, and everything was gonna be different. And when I got into the hospital, they, they've sort of red flag to my file. You know, watch out for this one, sort of, which was the best thing they ever do. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. When it happened, things moved really quickly. And really, in the right, you know, everyone knew what had to be done. Because it did happen to have even made it to three days after I heard you, it just went back. And I, I also had a very traumatic birth and, and got diagnosed with PTSD from the birth. But the whole birth trauma thing was a new thing. Because it wasn't two years after that, I actually realized that that's what it was. And that was just through social media, following particular people and just went, Oh, I think that's what happened to me. And then I'd been vaccine was my counselor. Like for therapy and stuff, and I talked to her about it. And when I was really telling her my birth story, and she said, Oh, yeah, I don't want to diagnose you with something else. But yeah, you've got PTSD. And that's birth trauma and understood a lot. Like, oh, wow, just add it to the list. Just another thing to add Yeah. It's the weirdest thing. You just, some people just, you know, breeze through it, everything's great. Everything's fine. And you sort of think, like, I don't know, did you have an experience where you talked about not having the ideal birth? And do you ever feel like you've missed out? Did you ever feel completely, like almost jealous of other people that have got to have certain things, I went through a grieving process. And that grieving process actually lasted longer than that acute episode, I was in hospital. So I was in hospital until my son was six weeks old. That's when we were discharged the day after he turned six weeks old. And obviously, things weren't great, but I wasn't in that acute crisis state. I was back to maybe mild, moderate. And then, you know, once you're out of that distressed state, you can then work on therapy and all the skills that you had, that then starts to kick in. But then the grief hit until maybe my son was about six months old. And you know, I would my one of my friends had her baby boy. So I have a son. So she had a baby boy about three months after I did. And, you know, she had the vaginal birth she had the breastfeeding journey that I didn't. And yes, that's not to dismiss how hard motherhood is, but she had that newborn bubble. And I, I cried it. To put it bluntly, it felt like my heart broke into a million and pieces, because I just thought how much mental illness took away. You know, not just what I wanted, but it took away that newborn bubble, that breastfeeding experience, you know, the bonding that we're told, breastfeeding provides us it took away moments that I would never ever get back those first six weeks of my son's life, I would never get those back. And it took up until he was six months old for me to reconcile with that, and to Yeah, come to a place where I, you know, no matter how much I wanted to, I couldn't change what had happened. So in that up until he was six months old, that grieving process, I then reached stuck. I then wanted to reestablish breastfeeding and try re lactating. So I tried so hard at that I, you know, had the approval of, you know, the community nurse, and my psychologists, psychiatrists, because they said, Okay, you're in a different headspace, but I was still grieving. And in my head, reestablishing breastfeeding was my way of wanting to get back the time that I had lost, because if I just clung to breastfeeding as the answer to my problems, and it didn't work, which I knew it wouldn't work, probably for a few. I was, you know, you have to pump like seven times a day, 10 minutes each. So you know, it is just not happening when you've got a an infant and you're speeding, you know, playing, changing body, all of this, you know, and you need to eat yourself. And so it just wasn't happening, but I clung to it. And it wasn't until six months postpartum, that I just realized that even if it did work, even if I was able to reestablish breastfeeding, there was nothing that would change what had happened, there was nothing I could do to get that time back, even if it magically worked. And I was breastfeeding and we could enjoy this current time in this sense through breastfeeding. Those six weeks weren't coming back. And I needed to make peace with that and that grief was that like I said, it lasted a lot longer than even the acute episode and it was consuming it did a grief made me you know, suffer more than I already was. But yeah, there was that jealousy and there was that just I mean, I call it grief because it just I wanted so badly what they had not that I wanted to take it away from them, but I just wish I got Yeah. And no, I mean it's still even with me. One of my other friends had her beautiful baby girl about six weeks ago and you know, I didn't cry for a solid two months straight this time. I cried for a couple of hours but that just yeah, it it still hits you and you still think what did I miss out? You know, the last bit of my pregnancy that you know, you convince yourself you're not capable or you can't function and your anxiety is just in control. And you know, you just wish you was strong enough I guess I'm gonna use that in quotes to overcome your anxiety and be brave you know all that positivity. So you know, you wish you could just think it think your way out of it and have some positive affirmation. And it doesn't but you still hold on to that you know, you still think God I wish I could have just I wish I wasn't controlled by my anxiety or I wish I wasn't controlled by my mental health and because of that I missed out on some of the experience I wanted and it's not my fault it is an illness. But it still hurts it hurts like hell. And yeah, like I said I didn't like with my friend who had her boy at three months when I was three months postpartum I cried every single day for hours and hours and hours a day for maybe two three months. This time it was only a few hours but you know it that grief is mental illness takes away a lot from us you know and especially as a mom you miss out on on so much and your kids grow so quickly and in that six weeks I wasn't getting that time back you know and that's still something that eats away and sits with you and I don't know if I deliver not eat away at me but yeah, you know and that's okay. That's okay. I'm allowed to grieve that you know it's getting easier but yeah absolutely. You said how mental illness take so much away is that what's makes you really passionate about sharing your story. It's like you can, you can take this thing that's been so destroying and turn it into something. I don't want to say positive because it sounds cliche, but you know me like to sort of say, okay, so this has happened, this has been really shit really, really bad. But the silver lining is that maybe I can help someone else. Maybe I can, you know, has that been a factor in think so. But I think this was also my way of processing the grief and owning my story. You know, this was a strict like I said, I this is not the story, I want to be telling you about motherhood, I wish I had a very different story to be sharing. I wish I had the stories that my friends were sharing about their births and their newborn bubbles. And, yeah, I wish I had that. But this is my way of owning it. This is my way of acknowledging that I can't change those six weeks. And that's in it's hard. But I'm owning it. And by doing this by sharing my story, it's actually my way of processing my own bullshit. Processing my own grief and actually acknowledging, well this did happen. And I can, you know, try to sweep it under the rug, and, you know, pretend it didn't happen and just have it eat up my worth for the rest of my life, or I can own it. I can own that this was my experience, acknowledge that it wasn't what I wanted. And I can potentially do something with it that hopefully make someone else feel less alone so that they don't have to sit there in silence. Yes, they don't have to share their story with the world. But they can sit there and know that they aren't alone. And that this is shit, but that it does get better. Like I promise it gets better. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I think that's what kept me going with my second child is because I had that perspective of having one already and going. I know they grow. I know, it changes. I know, this isn't forever. That was a pretty important thing for me being stuck in that. Because the first time it was just like, oh my god, is this ever going to end? This is? Assuming Yeah, yeah. So hearing that is pretty important, I think to know that it's not always going to feel and you're not always going to have these emotions. You're not always. And it's okay. Like, even if you don't have mental ill health, it is okay to acknowledge that motherhood and especially that newborn stage can be shaped Yes, it can be awesome. It can also be really, really hot. And I think it's so important that we talk about that because there are mothers out there who feel alone, like yes, they might not have a mental illness, but they still feel like they're suffering on their own. We don't want anyone to feel like that. And that whole sort of pressure that society has on us that it's like we've touched on, it's got to be a certain way, mothers should be able to do it. And if you ever complain about how hard it is, oh, well, you wanted to have children, you know, this way that society just shuts lately completely, like, oh, but you wanted to have a job? Why are you complaining about your job? Like, it's the same bullshit, but we don't say that to someone who got a nine to five and is complaining in nine to five, you know, we, it is ridiculous, but I mean, that experience Yes, it you know, was a way to process my own stuff, but it also motherhood and the experience I went through helped me I guess, figure out my own values or the values will already there, but it was the way I it was kind of pushing me that I had to start to actually live by my values, which obviously influenced the work that I'm doing. Yes, I am doing podcasting now, but I've always been a writer. Yeah, I've always been into creative writing and storytelling, and, you know, I always wanted to write a book, but on no way that doesn't pay the bills. I need a nine to five. So you know, it's this third podcasting. It's actually my way of sharing stories like that journalism, that storytelling that interviewee you know, that's coming back to those values. And yes, you know, we don't want to sit here and say, Oh, you've gone through should experience Um, here's the silver lining, but my silver lining is that, you know, going through what I went through, I realize just how important it is to. Yeah, not to shut ourselves down and to just go through. Yeah, to prioritize what we feel is important. And yes, it doesn't bring in the bills. But it's still important that that doesn't make it any less important. Hmm, but mental health advocacy is something I've always wanted to do long before I became a mom. Yeah, storytelling was something I always wanted to do. So this platform has allowed me to do both. And that that's why I don't feel like I'm working like I mean, I can't even call it a job. Like I said, I don't get paid. But it feels it's work. But it doesn't feel like work to me. I wake up in the morning, and I want to do it, and go to sleep at night thinking about it again. And it feels important, and so I wouldn't. Yeah, the experience of what I went through, made me realize just yeah, that that direct show that purpose, that meaningfulness I guess, came through all of the shitty stuff. Yeah. Tell me about your writing. So, like I said, I only started to kind of see myself as a creative person recently. I've always been a creative child, though, like the witch. Yeah, I, I guess I forgot about that. You know, I was always doing drawing or cross writing. I'm always trying to make something. I mean, it would could be terrible, but I was doing it anyway. Yeah, you know. But then, you know, as you get older, and me being who I am, you need that praise that validation. And so you lose touch with that creativity, because it doesn't get you got a pluses or the ticks or the, you know, you don't get a job out of it, really. And so that led me down the path of, you know, wanting to pursue things that did get me that praise that did get me that a plus and that validation. So you think that you're not good at creativity, because you're not getting that. That to me, being me, I'm a perfectionist as well. But in my spare time I wrote, I wrote a lot. So outside of school or doing homework, that was my outlet to understand the world or whatever I was going through. But again, I never got that success. I can remember, like, as one of our school English teachers, she was an actual author. And she'd set up a book club at school. And I was so excited because I thought I just want to be part of this. And I'd written a novel when I was like, 13, or something. And so I submitted it to her. And she said, Rick, I'm not going to read it, because that wouldn't be fair. And I'm glad she did it. In hindsight, because it was absolute trash. I, you know, it kind of broke my heart a little because I saw I wanted her to read it. And I'd be famous author. And anyway, so she said, Why don't you submit a smaller piece of work? And you know, if it's good, we'll go into the book club, because I think you'll be great in the book club. So I submitted this piece of work to her and I didn't get into the book. So you know, it just, I guess all of that either. Just reinforces that I wasn't very good. You know, you don't get that praise, you don't get the you think you're not good at it. So you don't want to pursue it. Right. Like it's very discouraging. So yeah, I spent those teenage years telling myself I was so creative, I wasn't good at that. So I needed to be I needed to do things I was good at. I was good at I was actually very good at writing essays, probably the story writing helped with that. But, you know, I was excellent at writing essays, I'll toot my own horn there. Even at uni, I would get the high distinctions and things. So I pursued those lines of study and work because that's what got me the, the tick of approval, like, then that you know, if other people are telling me I'm good at it, then that's what I have to pursue. So I would always come back to writing though, you know, after school, I'd take little short courses or creative writing courses, certificates, or whatever. And I did so many of them because I just loved telling stories. And I thought the more courses I do, the better I'll get at it. You know, you want to be the best at it. You don't want to do it. Unless you're good at it. Yeah, yeah. It's that whole, I guess that's a societal thing. But yeah, that need for a job would just come and swallow up any creativity. So I shifted the focus from maybe writing to becoming a book editor, because that in my mind would be the closest I'd get to being in that field. And, you know, potentially could hypothetically do some writing around the nine to five kind of thing I even did. My university degree was in English Literature writing, linguistics, journalism edit, you know, I did all of that. And I loved it. Don't get me wrong, but of course, it was the essays and the, you know, the linguistics that got me. You know, the top of the class and the high distinctions but not the creative stuff. This is horrible. story. I did a writing work At university, it was the one creative writing unit I did. And I never did another one, we had to write a short story, bring it to class, and the class would workshop, the story with you, you know, provide feedback, potentially structure or character development. Anyway, I wrote a story about my own experience with mental illness. So in my early 20s, right. And it was received very simply. So, you know, I got told by one person that I was perpetuating the stereotypes of depression, because the character I had in the story was sobbing all day, and couldn't get up and work and go to, you know, what, couldn't get up and go to work. But at the time, that's what I was experiencing. In my early 20s, there was a point where my husband who was, who was my boyfriend at the time, he would have to help me leave the bed carrying me while I was sobbing to the shower, because I couldn't physically get up and go to work, you know, he would be there, he would help me wash my hair, he would dry my hair with the hairdryer because I just, I couldn't function, you know, and that was my experience. And so I thought I'd write about that. And that would be my, that was me processing my experience. And yeah, I I know, it's a cliche. And I know, that's not depression for everyone. Believe me, I've had the opposite end of depression, where you're just so numb, that there's no tears believe that I've had. But that was my experience. And I wanted to write about that short period of my life. And you know, I had the lecturer and tutor tell me, well, I shouldn't write about things I don't know about clearly, I didn't know what I was writing about. Obviously, this is just reinforcing that I shouldn't be a writer, I shouldn't be, you know, creative, I shouldn't be doing anything that I'm not good at, quote, unquote. I shouldn't write about things I clearly don't know anything. It was, it was my own personal. I mean, obviously, it wasn't very good. Clearly, everyone was telling me it wasn't very good, which is fine. But you know, as to maybe they weren't very good. Meeting me, I just, you know, unless I was getting that recognition that what I was doing was good and worthwhile and helping someone else or whatever, I didn't want to do it. So that then, you know, reinforced that I shouldn't be doing writing or anything creative. So that really pushed me into the editing and publishing. And I didn't do any more creative writing units, because I just thought, I'm not good at it. I'm, yeah, this isn't for me, I thought I want to do it. But if I'm not getting that feedback, then not this isn't for me, I'm not good at it, I'll do something I'm good at, which is the things that get you the a plus and the tickets. And you know, and I did don't get me wrong, I love editing, and publishing, I did a few courses around that as well. I have this fascination with the English language or with language in general. So I ended up getting a job at my university. I'm on Matt Lee from an hour, but I was an English language specialist. And I would edit documents and write glossary definitions. And I'd work in the data team and analyze data from that language point of view, rather than number seven. It was meaningful and fulfilling. And that was as close to creativity as I was gonna get. But it was still a real job in quote, marks, and I was enjoying it, potentially, because I was being praised for it, because I was good at it. And then obviously, becoming a mom, you know, your whole world and identity and opinion of yourself and values change. And, you know, I'm sitting here and it's like, yes, I would love that nine to five, but I want to do something that makes me excited to wake up in the morning that I'm doing something meaningful that I'm living to my values. So and again, I still don't see myself as a podcaster. Deep down my little my, my inner self still says sees myself Oh wants to see myself as a writer. Because that's how I've always wanted to see myself. Yeah. So you know, telling stories is a big part of what I do on Instagram, not just others, but my own and just little snippets here and there. And that that provides me the most. It's cathartic in a way for me, but yeah, that provides me the most meaningful and purposeful, you know, activity anyway, that's like I said, it's the I still don't see myself as a podcaster because I'm still figuring out but yeah, I guess now I I'm learning that I don't have to be great at something to enjoy doing it. And that's taking what don't get me wrong. I'm not 100% there yet, they'll still be a part of me that wants to be the best at everything and wants to know what I'm doing before actually do it. I don't want to learn by doing it because I don't want to be you know, it's that mentality that takes a while to get out of to break out. Oh, so like I said, I spent the last year just trying to figure out how to actually podcast and I would do so much and I do so much on the back end. So that actually now that I'm starting to podcast, it's coming easy, because I invested so much time into the back end But there was no way I was going to do it. At the start, at this time last year was actually when I set up my ABN and stuff. And anyway, but yeah, it. Yeah, it sounds ridiculous. But that's no. That's the thing that you're conscious of things that you want to improve or change. You know, that's, you know, a step ahead of most people, I think a lot of people go through life just oblivious to their behaviors or the way their behaviors affect others or things that they could, you know, change in their lives that would make life better for them. So, you know, good on Yeah, I know where I need to improve. Am I getting there slowly? Well, I get there, 100%, maybe not, I'm still, you know, those perfectionist tendencies that, you know that you hold on to that criticism, slowly unlearning that, but you know, and that's okay. I don't have to be perfect at not being. Yeah, a lot of what you're saying I can really resonate with. I mean, I think I'm a little bit older than you, I'm in my 40s. And I've got to a place now where I just don't give a shit of what people think anymore. And that is so different to the person I was growing up. I was so with what people thought that feedback was so important to me. You know, I, like you've said about situations where people have given you feedback that, you know, it wasn't what you wanted to hear, and it stopped you from doing things I've done that. And at this point in my life, I just think if I want to do something, I'll do it. And I don't care. So yeah, it's possible. It's possible and it's so freeing when you start caring what other people think it's a wonderful feeling it like you're just living your life the way you want to live it and, like, God, I would be, I'd be walking down the street as a teenager. And I would, I would tell myself, the stories in my head that are that person that just drove past in that car, they were judging my genes that they weren't the right. Like I would create all these things in my head. And then yeah, as you grew up, we just go, no, that didn't happen because people don't give a shit. Everyone's worried about themselves. Everyone's even if they were judging my genes. That's their problem. Yeah, exactly. Good. Yeah. No, it is. It's an amazing feeling. And you just think, My God, why couldn't I be like this when I was young? How much suffering did we have to go? To learn what we've learned? Now? You know that? Yeah. But the good side is that, you know, it's gonna be, you know, God willing, I live that long, but it's gonna be good next half of my life. Totally. And what a good example to set for your kids. Really? Oh, yes. Yeah, teaching them that it's okay to not actually care that other people will let you have to bend yourself over backwards to accommodate other people's. Whatever. Yeah, I think that that's a huge thing that we're unlearning and that we get to teach our children. Hmm. Yeah, I'm, I'm excited, I guess, for the future to see and hope that our kids don't carry that bullshit with them until they're in their 30s or 40s. Or whatever, that they can maybe live a little without that fear of judgment, or fear of upsetting someone else. Dramatic, you know, just by being themselves. Yeah, exactly. And making no apologies for how, how they want to dress and what music they want to listen to me. Ah, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. I talk to all my moms about this, this topic of mom guilt. And I find it really interesting. It's something that I'm, I don't know why I'm so interested in it. Because I hate it so much. And I wish you're allowed to be you just but yeah, what's your take on it? I mean, I do believe mom guilt is real. I haven't quite decided if it's based on you know, the way we compare ourselves or our unrealistic expectations that we have of motherhood, although unrealistic expectations society gives us about another. I don't know if it's that or if there is some intrinsic component to mom guilt, but it's definitely real and it does. rear its ugly head, I guess, in so many contexts. You know, there's so many shorts, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I, I'm guilty of it. I'm guilty of Mongo, I still feel like I should be doing more or spending more time with my son and you know, potentially if I wasn't working a little bit on the podcast, and maybe I could cook a better meal for him more, you know, whatever it is, but I'm also Learning. And again, this is a slow process, I'm learning to be self compassionate Sure, I could push myself beyond my, you know, human limits him to be better. But what would that wouldn't actually make the guilt go away or just make it appear in another way or in another form? Yeah, the context, there's no winning, you know, there's always going to be something better. There's always something going to be more you could be doing and then there's more sacrifices you make on yourself, and what's the cost? So I'm trying to learn to just, it's there, and it sucks. But I'm trying to keep it as background noise and trying not to let it control me because I don't think it would benefit myself or my son, or myself to be a mother who sacrifices 100% of my own wants and needs to be better, right? I don't think it's benefiting either of us. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So in one go, it's there and it sucks. But yeah, it's just learning to, I don't know, I don't like I said, I don't know where it comes from, or if it can ever go away, but I'm learning that if it's there, it can stay there, but I'm just gonna not try to feed into it or let it control my motherhood or my human experience, really, ya know, that it's so true. It's like when you say, you know, if you did do something, then something else would suffer. And then you feel guilty about that. And then if you do, then you feel guilty about that. It's like, it's just this constant juggling thing, you know, especially in motherhood, we talk about this work life balance, and I don't know if it actually exists, I think we're all just struggling to find that balance, or that ideal balance and really just doesn't exist, because you could be at work, you're feeling guilty, you're not at home, you're at home, you're feeling guilty, you're not working and there is or I could be exercise, or I should be doing this, I should be doing that. And there is no winning, there is no balance, because to have that balance, you've made that piece. And you know that you're doing 100% Yeah, do that. Is it possible? Yeah, it's impossible. So I'm, yeah, it's there. And it sucks. And I'm learning just to let it sit there and to just sit in that discomfort that it will exist, and I'm doing my best. And it will tell me, I could be doing more or I could be doing better, or that there is a different definition of best. Just trying to Yeah, let it just be let it lets myself sit with it and just do what I'm doing anyway. Yeah. Now, that's really good advice. I think that thing of being kind to ourselves, and not making ourselves feel guilty for feeling guilty, you know, just, you know, had an eye as long as you you'd like someone to put a post up the other day. And I just thought this is the epitome of life, you know, if you can take your child into bed, who's fed and loved. And, you know, I just think that we've made it you know, if your child wakes up in the morning with a smile on his face, and I don't know, I agree, because like you said, there are so many shoulds. And so social media just feeds into that or you should be bottle feeding or co sleeping or not put you shouldn't use a dummy you shouldn't use you shouldn't that and you get so caught up in doing it right and feeling like you're doing it wrong. But as you said, if your kids alive, if they're happy, you've got a roof over your head, you're doing everything bloody right? There is no wrong in that situation. And I wish we could say that more, we get so caught up on what we should or shouldn't be doing. And everyone's got a different opinion. And really, as you said, or as that quote said, I think I saw it yesterday on your stories, but you kids fed, they're happy there's a roof over your head, they're in a warm bed. You're the best mother for them, you're doing everything right, drown out everything else, because it's not doing any favors. Really. Hmm. Absolutely. And you also touched on that, that sort of context that that idea of martyrdom about giving up everything of yourself, that it's just like you just think I'd be crazy than what I am. To do. Every single moment of my time to my children. I just think, I don't know, a lot of people I talk to through the podcast, you know, creative women who weren't doing something before they had a child. And just because they happen to have a child doesn't mean that that creativity and that need to create and the outlet and the release and the regulation that they get from creating just dissipates you know, it's it's it's such a i don't i It's a ridiculous notion. For some women. Being a mother 100% of the time actually is fulfilling and meaningful to them and hats off to them. For other women. That's not the case. And we need to make space for both. There's no right or wrong, that you know, if you are 100% fulfilled in motherhood and you know, meeting the needs of your children, then go for it. No one is stopping you for other months. I know for me, I'm I don't know, if it's an only child thing, I'm an only child, I need my space. I don't care if it's to do nothing, I need my space from other people. And that includes my son, I love the kid, I love being able to see him smile and try new foods or play with him. Love him. I need my space. Yeah, one of your questions on the page was in terms of identity. And yes, I mean, I don't know if it's necessarily important for me to see myself as being more than just a mother. There's nothing wrong with being just a mother. But I always wanted to be a mother. But I think it's important for me to be someone who lives according to her values. And someone who acknowledges that I do have my own needs and my own wants, and that's okay. That's actually okay. I'd never really wanted to be a crew person. But I also didn't want to be a stay at home mom, I guess. And trying to find that balance between the two extremes was important, I guess. And I'm still trying to figure that out. I want to work but I also want to raise my son, but I also want to meet my own needs and live by my values and explore my own interests. And whether those changes, I just want to be able to do that. I don't know if I'll ever find that balance. But it's important to me that, you know, I meet my own needs. And it's important that my son can see that I am my own person. And, you know, if one day I want to be just a mother, or I'll devote 100% My time to them, I'll go with that, if that's intrinsically what I want to be doing. But I guess for me, it's important that I'm doing what intrinsically feels right. And just trying to balance being a mum, figuring out my own sheep, you know, healing and pursuing my own interests and giving myself the opportunity to do that without labeling it as good or bad. Without being able to judge myself or say, Well, I'm not good at it, I shouldn't do it, or it's not bringing in, you know, it's not paying the bills, therefore, I shouldn't even try, you know, it's just trying to fit it in, around all the other shit. You know, and I guess that probably goes to your other question about day to day. Creativity, like, how does that work? I mean, there is no structure to my day, it just whatever feels right. Like, if I feel like playing with my son, I'm gonna play with him. Or if I feel like doing podcast stuff, I'll work around his schedule. So for some background information here, my my husband's in the military. So up until two weeks ago, he was deployed for the whole year. So when my son, yeah, sorry, when my son was six months old, my husband got deployed out of Sydney. So he was still in Australia. But he was in intensive training, he was allowed to come home every blue moon for 24 hours. But then he had to go back. So yeah, I was solo parenting my son for a whole year up until two weeks ago. And I mean, I didn't go back to a, you know, my office job because with, I mean, I've been sick as well. I've had glandular fever for the last six months. So you know, everything that could happen could go wrong. This has but insane that I'm surprised myself with I guess, growing up, I always had that narrative in my head that I was not capable. I'm not capable of coping. I'm not an independent person. I need to rely on other people. I'm not an adult, you know, you tell yourself that stuff. And then you're thrown into the deep end and you're like, oh, shit, I can actually cope. Well, yes, we're not in Thrive mode. We're definitely in survival mode this year. But I did it. I actually did it. And I raised my son and not just that, I also got to work on something I was really, really passionate about. Yeah, in the background. Yeah. So in terms of day to day stuff with me and my son, it was just when he was having a nap, I would quickly try to do some podcasting stuff or when he'd go to bed at night. I'm I'm such a night owl. I get so much done. Night. But that was my me time I could, you know, sit down and figure out okay, what podcasting platform do I want to use or what's my calendar system that people can book through and I'll do my website. You know, I was just working on it piece by piece by piece and it's hard when you're in that moment because you think I'm not getting anywhere. But when you look back and it's like it she'd look at all this stuff that I've done, like, look, oh my god, it's actually I actually did all of that. And it was just little moments, little moments that I could just slowly build. And again, I wasn't getting feedback from that this was me doing something that felt right. And that was all the feedback or motivation that I needed is that it just felt purposeful. It felt meaningful. But yeah, I mean, that's not to say it was easy. My son, at eight months old, decided he didn't like sleeping in the car anymore. This was a kid who slept in a car. From the moment he was born, he was such a chill, calm, baby, all of a sudden, he wants to co sleep. So you know, there I am. Nine o'clock at night rocking him to sleep in my house, because he wouldn't sleep in the car, he wouldn't sleep alone, he had to be on me or near me. And then I was finally going to eat dinner once I was able to feel confident enough to you know, roll him off me. Then I could go be a human, have a shower, have dinner, and then I could go potty. And that's hard. It's hard solo parenting. And I'm so you know, lucky, my husband, I didn't have to go back to a nine to five job because you don't we could financially afford for me to be at home with our son, you know, working on my mental health, my physical health looking after my son who brought home every day care illness. He was there three days a week. And I swear this year, he was home more than he was actually at daycare because he'd been so sick. And then I'd catch whatever he caught. And it was just, we're definitely surviving. But just any moment that I could just do something for myself on top of, you know, having a shower or brushing my teeth and eating. Like, it was a hard game. It's a very hard. I've got so much respect for you seriously. Because what are my Lord days is my nightmare. Seriously, I just, I just I feel I always feel so incapable. When I when I had my first, like, real episode, I suppose. After my son was born, the thought in my head was, I can't do this. I can't do this. I don't know what to do. Which was ridiculous. Because I worked in childcare for years before I had him. So I knew how to look after children. You know, but it was just this irrational. I can't do this. And it took me a long, long time to even after I was, you know, medicated and things were honestly getting back to normal. Yeah, I was like, Ah, I can't know what I'm doing what's, you know, just this doubt, serious self doubt. And similar thing when my husband got COVID, earlier in the year, and so we're really trying to isolate him away from the rest of us. And my first thought was, oh, shit, I'm gonna say, How am I going to do it all myself, but then I actually did do it. And I was actually fine. And I think because, because I knew that there was no other option. It was like, I just had to do it. And so I actually didn't struggle that much. Because I was really accepting of the situation I was in and was like, okay, not saying, you know, it wasn't hard. And everything was wonderful. But I didn't let myself get to those extremes where I'd get to a complete meltdown. Because I knew that there was no saving me like, there was nothing. I mean, you know, and I think as well, we tell ourselves these stories that we can't do it. And yet when we're actually in a situation, yes, it's hard. But we've hate hearing I am like, what actually surviving and it's that build up? You know, I think a big part of my episode was, obviously I was in the hospital and all I could keep thinking was, how the fuck am I going to do this? When my husband's away next year? You know, this last? How the hell am I going to get through this? How am I going to cope? I can't even look after myself. How the hell am I going to look after the sun? I'm in this hospital. There's mothercraft nurses and pediatricians and psychologists around me all day was great. Am I gonna do this? Yeah, but I did. Yeah, I did. And we just figured it out. And it was hard. But we did it. But it's that build up and mental illnesses is mean, it is so mean to us. It tells us we can't do anything. It tells us we can't cope. It tells us we're incompetent. And that, you know, then you play into the other kids deserve better and Oh, but other people can cope. Why can't I? Yeah. And it's a bully. And really, the reality is we can actually do hard things and it sucks. Do not get me wrong. It sucks. But we can do it. And when you're in those moments, you just do it. There's no doubting yourself because you are actually doing it. Yeah, yeah, that was that was one of the words that I tell myself to help myself out of things when I'd get this. I can't do it. And I'd say no, but I am actually doing it right now. When I am doing it, you know, just to tell myself a different story and to trick my brain. Yes, we have to trick our brain because it's tricking us. Yes, yes. Yeah, it is. It's it is tricking us. And I know I, with my music I've, I've given my list posole depression, this persona of the wolf, I call it I've written I'm working on an album at the moment where the whole the whole album is about, it's called Wolf. And it's about the whole journey. And it's each song is a is a tiny little time frame of how I felt at different times. And it literally, that's how it felt it was consuming me it was this thing that wasn't me. Even though it was existing within me, and it was attacking me it was taking all the good things away, and it was making me scared and vulnerable. Sorry, I'm getting goose bumps. It's like, it's just this thing that inhabits you, you know, like people called the, the, you know, the black dog, you know, it's just, it's just this thing. And yeah, we can we can tell a different story. You know, it's, I mean, I don't That sounds so simplistic, but when you're in like you said before, when you're in the wind, it's really happening when you're in these episodes, you can't do anything, there is no, there is no rational thought there's no way of controlling but when you start to come out in the help of, you know, professionals and what have you, and then you can start to sort of rewire and, and what do they call that cognitive behavioral therapy, whatever it is, like telling yourself a different story, taking out the shirts, oh, we should do this, we should do. You know, that was one of the things someone said to me at one stage, take out the shirts, there's no shirt, it's you might do this or you might think about doing this or you know, just change the way around things simple things like that can make a massive difference. Going back to identity, not just motherhood, but mental illness, it feels like a part of you, it feels like who you are, it feels like your identity. So being able to separate yourself from those thoughts from that experiences is very hard to do. As you said, coming out of that you're able to look at it as something different, you're able to look at it as a wolf or whatever personification you give it. Because you're able to see that it's happening to you, but it's not you. And that's very, very powerful. And for me, that was where storytelling came in. The more I wrote about it, the more I tried to be poetic about my experience, or to just even just journal it I started to see it as not me, not my identity. And that's when your that's when you're healing. I know firsthand how easy it is to feel like this is who you are, and therefore it's you that's broken or it's it's never gonna get better because you're not getting better. You know, you you tell yourself these things that yeah, in terms of identity it Yeah, it's all consuming. Yeah. And that's the thing. There was no way when I was in the throes of the real depths. There was no way I was separating it out. I was there it was me you know, and it was the same gynecologist that I you know made the off the cuff comment Well, you could have just fixed it with one pill a day yes I pragmatic. He's he's an awesome bike and I have a great relationship with Him any he said he said you know, it's it's a chemical imbalance in your brain. That's what it is. It's a chemical imbalance in your brain. Yeah, and it was like right there you go. It's not me it's no it's I night and that really gave me the power to say I am not in control of this. I physically cannot. So I had this horrible experience between I had between having my two children where am I safe a friend I put the quotes because I don't see this person anymore or associated with it because of this next told me that that mental illness and depression don't exist because you should be able to keep yourself well by affirmations positive affirmations like that before. And I just You have no idea you have not experienced what I've experienced like and that was even before I had the big episode. The second child it's like Sure. I'm not dismissing the fact that you know if you're a generally well person, if you don't have massive chemical imbalances in your brain, sure keeping yourself you know, mentally well through positive thinking and eating well and exercising that that's great, but when you actually are so unwell severely unwell It's no amount of putting positive affirmations, it's good to save it. Like, it's not even on the radar night. And I think like you said, it's not to just dismiss the importance of that stuff eating well exercising, it is important. And it's very useful. Potentially, when you are in that mild category, you know, or if you had a bad experience, you know, and we're not even talking trauma, we're just talking something negative has happened in your life, going and doing those things. Even just a little talk therapy affirmation, they're so helpful, there's no doubting it. But there is a difference between, you know, feeling a little depressed, or a little anxious or depressed or a little anxious versus having the illness, there's a big difference. And again, it's not to invalidate those feelings, but the illness is something entirely different. And I'm, I'm with you, I see a lot of that on social media, I see a lot of all mental illness isn't real, or it's just a societal problem. And if we fix society would don't get me wrong. There are societal factors that do impact our mental health. It is an illness, like for God's sake, we need to stop invalidating it. Because this is the reason people don't get help. This is the reason stigma exists. There's so much so much misinformation about it. And sadly, this is the reason some people die. You're made to feel like it's your fault, you're positive. If you didn't do enough to prevent it, you didn't do enough to think positively, you didn't do enough to exercise. I was exercising four or five times a week during my pregnancy, I was eating well, pregnancy was physically the healthiest time in my entire life. I was also the most mentally unwell I ever was in my entire life. You know, we can throw these things out. And so you could just join I was journaling like we can do. I was seeing a psychologist, I was doing everything right, ticking all the boxes. It doesn't matter. It does not discriminate. And it is an illness. You know, give yourself some grace for that. Like it. Like I said before, I blamed myself a lot. I thought I'm doing everything right. I should have prevented this. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. How much more suffering Do we go through? Because we think of it they fought their way out of it all, but they just exercised and felt better. They went for a walk. Why isn't that fixing me? We suffer so much more because of this misinformation because of I don't know people, people aren't like this with physical illness. It's not like I'm gonna yell at my kidney for not producing enough insulin if I had diabetes. But we we dismiss anything in our mind because we think we have control over it. Really, we're only cognizant of what 10% Of our brain like it just does my head in that we still have these attitudes. It's 2022. Like, come on. But yeah, you still see it on social media, if you just take these vitamins, if you just work on your, you know, oh, you're clearly deficient in this might joke at me. Yes, having a balanced diet, having our, you know, vitamins and nutrients all important, but that is not the cure. Like we need to stop pushing it as the cure. Because it's not. Yeah, and yeah, I whenever I say stuff like that, I just think they that person who's wearing it, they have no idea. They actually have no idea. And they're seeing life in this fanciful sort of rose colored glasses sort of way. They've never suffered. No one ever struggled in that from actual mental illness, you know, and I just, I get so mad. I just have to unfollow people or block people. I just think there's no, there's no debating with people like that. They've got their heart ingrained views, they're not gonna listen to, you know, make writing a comment. But I do think sometimes when there's a big backlash to something in the media, like a celebrity said something, and everyone jumps on him. They're the times when people with these, you know, perhaps don't understand, have this glimpse into maybe understanding I don't know, like, I remember years ago, this has gone back ages Belkin was one of our killers, friends passed away through suicide. And he wrote this big thing on his Facebook. I'm sorry, you couldn't hold on for us. I'm sorry. It's like this had nothing to do with you. It had nothing to do with anybody else. And people jumped on him. And he and he was writing it from a point of view that he'd experienced seeing someone with depression. Right. And so people were saying, you obviously have never experienced this yourself. And it was a real big thing. And he kept turned around and said, I'm really sorry, didn't say, you know, and so moments like that, I sort of hold on to hope that other people will see that and go Oh, actually, maybe I don't understand this. Yeah, but yeah, in everyday stuff you There's no, there's no debating with these people that that's what they believe. And you're never going to change them. But I just hope, yeah, society. Yet it really pisses me off like it's done someone with a broken leg, you're not going to go along and kick their crutches away and say, Come on, you can control yourself fix your leg, you know? Yeah, I feel like sometimes going around with a T shirt. Like, I haven't been to where it's like, okay, so like, do I need a sign saying like, Be nicer to me? Like, I don't know, it just it shouldn't be that way. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, I wouldn't wish it on those people. Because unfortunately, sometimes the only way you know is if you have gone through it personally. Yeah. But I mean, I wouldn't wish on them to know it. But yeah, unfortunately, there is still so much misinformation about mental health and so much bullshit, really so much that people don't know well, that they think they know. Yes, they think they know because they might have seen it, or they've had it or they felt a little bit depressed about something. One point in time, but it's very different from the illness, like very different. And I wish Yeah, I wish we didn't have to justify the illness. No one with diabetes has to I mean, sometimes people, you know, they weighed shame or whatever, oh, it's your own fault. It's not your fault. Like for God's sake, whether it's a physical illness or mental illness, we need to stop this shaming of people who aren't 100% Well, all the time, you know, it's not their own fault. It has is it something like gestational diabetes as well during pregnancy? There's so much blame and this mis misinformation that you caused it yourself. You weren't eating right enough. You weren't, you know, exercising, and it's nothing to do with that for God's sake. In terms of your support network, what does that look like for you? I mean, one of the best support networks if I can be honest, is the fact my son went to daycare like three days. That helped. You know, my mom and my dad have been an enormous help like practically, especially with my husband being away so they come help look after Pejic sorry, for my son punchy is what it is. nickname. Well, when I was pregnant, my bump we called it my punch. So it just the poor kid the name has just stuck. And even all my friends and family has punched doing my budget like the politics of tour. It stuck with him. But yeah, they all come over look after pajetta Yeah, I'm all look after some of the practical stuff around the house, especially when I was in the real real pits of glandular and I couldn't move, I was sleeping all day. And no matter how much I slept, I was still tired. You know, I was lucky my parents, they yesterday like an hour away in traffic, but they were still able to come over every now and then and help out and stay. And especially with both of us, me and being sick. Like, that was such a big help. I still have a psychologist. I still say my psychiatrist through the mother and baby unit Hospital, which is phenomenal. And yeah, obviously I had my husband via FaceTime and stuff, which I get a you know, it's not the same, but thank God for technology. Yeah, thank God, we have that stuff. So yeah, in a way I was. I was supported in that aspect. Maybe more. So for the practical stuff and the mental health stuff in terms of the artistic work creative stuff. And I still don't quite see myself as that just yet. We're working on that. I really don't think I had anyone to draw on. I don't have friends who really I don't know anyone who has their own business or who, you know, made a living out of something creative. So this is like I said, it's all very, very new to me, I'm still figuring this out. As I go. I'm teaching myself I'm learning. I mean, social media has been good in that sense that you create that community and you then are in touch with a lot of other women who are trying to be creative or they're trying to make a business out of something that they're passionate about. And so you do have that solidarity. Um, I guess none of us have it completely figured out but yeah, just doing the best we can and learning as we go. I like I said the support I've had has been very good I don't know, I've been very self taught. I guess I wish I wish I had someone to say how do I actually do this? So what the hell is an ABN? Like, either I'm really going from scratch. Yeah, yeah. I like that on social media. Like if I see if I see something, I think only 61 day. One of you think is like, how did you do that? I want to do that. Literally, my son's asleep in my arms, and I'm sitting there, whether it's two hours, however long he's having a nap, he won't move from my arms. I'll sit there on camera and just have a play, you know, and it's not perfect, but I'm just Oh, this looks good. I'm trying to do everything free, right? Like, I'm sure I could pay for extra or I could pay someone to do it for me, but I'm trying to do it all myself. I'm trying to do it as cheaply and freely as possible. So I'll just have a play. And if it looks alright, if I feel happy with it, then I'll post it. And yeah, I like I said, I wish I had someone just I just use this template or make my life a bit easier. But yeah, it's just figuring it out as I go. And if I'm playing while he's asleep, then I might learn something, or I might learn how not to do. I'm still learning either way. Really? Yeah. No, I love that. I think that's, that's awesome. I part of my experience of not wearing what people thought, I basically just jumped in and did it, because I had all my software from singing. So and I love editing. So there's that. But then same thing, like the things that you spent time on beforehand. I literally just did it by the seat of my pants, because I'm like, I really want to do this. And I'm going to do it right now. Yeah, so it's like, it can work either way you can make it work, however, it suits your personality. And I think for myself, I had to justify that, okay, if I want this to be real, then I have to know what I'm doing. And I have to do it. Like I have to put all the pieces together in the right order and do it slowly so that I can justify that this is going to be a valid thing. Not that I'm just I don't know, I mean, going to identity. I know this is such a stereotype. But you know, the whole the stereotype of Oh, you're just a mum, and you're working on a passion project while you're on maternity leave. I didn't want it to be just that I wanted to work against that narrative that, Oh, I get to, you know, play around with this passion project while my husband works a nine to five to financially support me so that I can work on this passion project. I really wanted to work against that narrative. And I wanted to be against that stereotype. And I wanted to be able to monetize and make it legit and real, not just something I'm slapping to get. I don't know, I wanted to be able to work against the stereotype and contribute to the family. I mean, I haven't done that yet. You know, not I haven't really challenged the stereotype, but in a way as well, sorry. You've mentioned on them the question she like the values we have as a society, on art and on creativity. And that narrative works against it. Right. Like we so I wanted to work against that stereotype. But I guess in doing so I'm just perpetuating the stereotype that creativity or women's work just doesn't matter unless it brings in money, you know? Yeah. And I think it is safe to say we just don't value art in society, which is ironic because we, we consume so much of it, whether it's art, whether it's listening to podcasts, or music, or watching movies, TV shows, even the design that goes into advertising, we consume so much of it, and yet we don't value the work behind it. Because it doesn't pay the bills. We are in a capitalist society unless they you know, we value competition, we value activities that can be monetized. But because it doesn't pay the bills, even I don't see myself as a creative person. Like I said, because I'm not really I'm not a real Podcast. I'm not a real writer, because that avenue of work is not bringing in money for me. At this point in time. As much as you know, somebody wants to sponsor me, I'll take it. Meaning to mean on the list and I'm doing it because it feels right. And I will go back to my job next month. But my nine to five job I should say, but I'm still going to be doing this and I've told my husband this is still a priority for me around mothering around my nine to five. Being able to share these stories and tell stories and advocate and educate about maternal mental health is something I hope to be doing. For the rest of my life. I will advocate for more mother and baby psychiatric hospitals. I think to the day I die because I don't think a lot unless something else happens in my life and that becomes the focus of my attention. That's my passion. You know, and I want I want to keep doing that. And I don't think if I stopped doing that, I don't think I'd be living authentically. As much as it doesn't bring in the bills. You know, I don't see it as real or important or valuable. Because it's not seen that way by other people because it's not bringing in money. And that's that's just what Yeah, so I'm yeah, I'm in this weird space of you know, not wanting to be the stereotypical mom on maternity leave just doing a passion project while hobbies at nine to five and then. But yeah, I'm, I guess in a way I'm perpetuating that because I'm because it's not bringing in money. I'm. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a minefield. Bullshit. Yeah, it's a frustrating one, that it's something that I've gotten more and more annoyed about. More I talk to people, and I've particularly on I've told this story a million times. So I'm sorry, if you've already heard this story. The, during the lockdown. And I say that I didn't really suffer too much. I wasn't like Melbourne was like, you know, the most lockdown city in the world or something. But we, we saw the sport continue. Yeah. All these these these AFL football as we're moving around the country continuing to play sport, and then money and for all the the TV companies with the right so you know, that was really important, apparently. So they kept going. But you know, all of the art stopped all of the gigs, all of the music, all that stuff. And it really annoyed me because like you said, we consume so much art and the the result of creativity of people. We're all sitting on our asses watching Netflix. I mean, who do you think made that? You know, like, it just really annoyed me. But that's how society views art and creativity. And like, ironically, to get through the lockdown, a lot of us turned to not necessarily creating but consuming at all. Yeah, like schools, like teachers would just say, Look, don't don't do all this maths homework, go paint a picture, go read a book, go do something creative and meaningful. And that was therapeutic. And we turned to that in those times when it was hard. And we know the value of it, we know how valuable it is on paper for our own therapy for our own meaningfulness for our own values and purpose. We know how valuable it is. But because there's not that monetary benefit, we don't value it as a society. So once locked down lifts, okay, we can all go back to normal and West, we're not going to prioritize art as therapy, or we're not going to, you know, look after our creative, you know, ourselves, there's so many different parts of ourselves that are practical self, our physical self, our creative stuff, when we're going to prioritize that part of ourselves. Because we just need to resume our, you know, nine to five activities, we need to contribute to the economy. Like, that's all that's seen as important. And I believe me, I understand why we have to go into lockdown to protect all of us, you know, I get it. It's still just, it's upsetting that there was some things that were prioritized over others. And you know, you do see society through a clear lens when you are in those situations where you see what we value. And ironically, we do value because that's what we were consuming. Yeah. That's not what society or our economy per se values. Because it's not got $1 attached to really, yeah, really frustrates me when you were growing up your mum, what sort of sort of role modeling did you get from your mom in terms of what a mother could look like? I suppose. I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up my grandmother here as well because I was very largely raised by my grandma. So my grandparents migrated from Italy in their 20s, I guess, they set up shop, they had kids. So in terms of mothering, from my grandmother's point of view, mothering was her whole life. Yeah. You know, you did everything for your children. You cooked for them, you cleaned for them. That was your Go. And I think as well, having that migrant background, you know, you do that for your kids so that they can go and succeed. So I guess mothering was her identity, or being a domestic worker, I guess, was the identity, that was her only role in life. But that's also a cultural thing, you know. And then, from my mother's perspective, my mother, you know, did go study and become that career woman. Because I guess, and I mean, maybe this is just my interpretation of it. But growing up with the migrant family, and that expectation that you have to do something with your life, they didn't suffer, they didn't sacrifice all of this for you to just not do it, you know, you want to succeed, you want to be good at what you're doing. And my mom was an excellent career woman. And I guess, as a mother was, I had those two extremes I had Korean woman and then I had the domestic and I'm, I guess, I don't know, where I see myself. Like I said, I'm trying to find that middle ground. That's not to say my mother wasn't mothering, or that my grandmother didn't have a job because she did have a job at some point. But in terms of the priorities, my own mother then carried the, I think, again, this is just my interpretation she carried that maybe the migrant mentality of you need to do everything for your children, my mother just did it in the sense of providing financially. Yeah, you know, it's you, she wanted me to go to a good school and to study and to work, you know, in order to do that it wasn't to stay at home, it was to go out and work and work her ass off, to be able to put me into private school or put, you know, just have that bit of life or have provide things that maybe she didn't have, you know, it's it's that cycle. And I don't know if it's a, I don't know, if it's a cultural thing, or a migrant thing, I don't know. But yeah, in terms of motherhood, I guess I had both examples of wanting to do everything for your child, but either way, whether it was through the home or through work, it was doing everything for your children, that was nice for you. And, yeah, I guess that that's something I'm trying to navigate, you know, I'm, I can genuinely say, I'm sorry, to my son, I'm not the mother, that's gonna do everything for him. You know, whether that's a good or bad thing I don't, I know that if I go down that road, that pressure will eat at me, I will not be an authentic person, and I will not be a healthy person. Because you know, even before I became a mother, you know, wanting to emulate that and have a career and push myself to my extremes. That's when the mental illness creeps in. Right? So I'm trying to find this balance between wanting to be the best mom I can for my son versus not sacrificing my sanity, or my passions, or my my soul. You know, I want to find that balance where, yes, my son is important. And I want him to feel important, and that I will do anything for him. But not at the cost of I don't know, I don't want to work until nine o'clock at night, or I don't want to just focus on the housework all day, every day. Like I want to find that balance. You're and I don't know what that looks like. I'm I'm figuring that out as I go. But yeah, yeah, I guess not. Motherhood was modeled like that. There was no creativity. There wasn't and, yeah, but that's okay. That was their experience. And that's what they did to survive. And, you know, obviously, I respect the work that they did, and how hard they worked for their children. You know, that's, that's the cultural attitude that I do want to take, I want my son to know, I worked hard so that he can have a roof of recital that, you know, we can then go out and play it, but I want also to enjoy the time with him. And not? Yeah, I don't know, I think this was probably the question that I struggled the most trying to think about. From your navigate that, do you think also in that you're, you're in context of working hard, is that working, and I feel like this, I feel like this for myself. So you may or may not feel like working hard on your own mental wellness, so you can be there for your child and you can meet their needs, in a way that you're happy with. And that, you know, is good for your child. I mean, that's a big priority for me. And it always has been before I became a mother, you know, with my prior experiences of mental health, I took my mental health very seriously. You know, I had been in therapy, probably since I was 16. Like just being able to work through that stuff. And I'd always said I didn't want to take it into motherhood. I didn't want my son to bear that burden. You Hmm. So I really focused on the skills and the therapy and the healing during my 20s. But I guess that kind of worked in a backwards way for me because it became that fixation. Like I said, at the start, pregnancy, I was consumed with planning for postpartum. And a big part of that was that first of all, I didn't want mental illness to get in the way of the earth or my parenting. But I also didn't want it to be something that my son inherited, I guess, by having that fixation it inevitably. Yeah, it worked against me, because I was, I was mentally ill. And I just didn't see it. I was so focused on postpartum that I just, I was really in denial about what I was going through through pregnancy. And, you know, it wasn't until I got to postpartum that I had that acute crisis episode that I was, you know, admitted to hospital that I was doing the best I could. And there's no such thing as 100% perfectly healed or recovered as much as I would like to think that or, as much as I held on to that belief that I could be cured and would never ever impact my son. I know now that healing, being imperfect, but still working on my healing is the best thing I can do for myself. It is absolutely best thing I can do for him in that working on myself acknowledging my own bullshit, being self aware, that is the best thing I can do for him not being perfect, like that perfectionism, or holding on to being perfect or cured or happy all the time would actually be more damaging to him. Then a mother who acknowledges her own shit, and is trying to work on it and apologizes. And like, that's what's gonna help him in the long run. Yeah. Yeah. And like, that's always been a priority, clearly, but now I'm approaching it from a different perspective. Yeah, no, I think like my eldest son's 14, and has his own issues with mental health. And I think it's really important to role model as a parent, that, you know, things are really hard. But if you're, if you put in the work, and you utilize the tools around you, and the things that you have access to, then that's really it is really important to it is you can't just sweep it under the rug, and you can't think everything's going to be fine. It's like you, you have to do the work. And it's as shitty as it is. And as horrible as it is. And he's had times where he's, he's hidden particular things from me, because he was like, Oh, I know, if I told you, I would have had to go back and talk to, like his counselor, he just didn't want to have to start the whole cycle. Again, it's like, this is what it is, it'll always be this, there'll be times in your life, where it will you rise up again, and you'll have to address it. You know, and I know, I've had times where I've finally found it very difficult to hide, you know, emotions, or episodes or things that I'm going through. And I sort of feel bad for that, because I sort of think my kids shouldn't have to bear the burden of, of, of my illness. At the same time, I sort of think this is our reality. And this is what would have happened, you know, 50 6070 years ago, everything was hidden. And that's probably why we have these issues with stigma and, and not understanding because it was so hidden away. So yeah, there's a balance there that I struggle with at times, but I think it is important that people know, and your kids know, maybe not to see it in all its glory. But you know, it's finding that balance between, you know, wanting to show, okay, this is, this is what it is, this is the reality versus making it their problem to solve, you know, we definitely don't want to do that. But we don't want to pretend that these things don't exist. But, you know, you're modeling to your son that if this does happen, you know, he knows where to turn, you are a safe place to turn to he will and He knows that you will understand. And you know, he's obviously seen you work on your mental health, so he knows, okay, I can do it too. And that, that is the best thing you can give to your kids. Honestly, it really is. And you know, it's not perfect, or it's not ideal, but you're not making it your son's problem. But you're showing him that it's okay to have mental ill health and that it's okay to talk about mental health and that we should be doing that. That's the only shot I'll ever say in my life is that we should be talking about mental health. Yes. Should be more of it. Yes. Yeah. And I think like, teenage teenage years, you know, through Tori, ously difficult to navigate regardless of any Other issues you've got. So it's like a no just talking, keeping the communication. Absolutely any kid will benefit from skills to help their emotional and mental health, even if they haven't, no mental illness, any of those skills are so valuable to any teenager because yeah, it's that hormonal thing. We want to sit there and say, Oh, it all has a reason. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just our hormones go in flux. And that's what had happened to me as a kid. I had, you know, the, the anxiety as you know, as a child, but then when you get to your teenage years, hormones really kick in. And if he takes it to another level, you know, and it's all that's when, you know, the OCD and things really set in all those intrusive thoughts. You can't really ignore them anymore. Yeah. And it can be such a scary time because you're dealing with physical changes to your body, and then, you know, emotional and then mental and it's like, what's going on? And who can you talk to? And all this sort of stuff comes up? It's just here. And then social media, I guess these days? Oh, yeah. I got out of AZ without having phones and technology back in the day. I mean, I, I don't understand. I mean, this is probably going off topic. But there is such an attitude in society that what teenagers go through isn't real, or it's not important. And but you know, you'll get over it. It's, you know, and that attitude is so damaging. Yeah, I don't get it. Like we so quick to the little kid. And yes, you know, they might have their heart broken for the first time. And it's, you know, yes, it's different to, you know, something else you might go through as an adult, but that doesn't make it any less. You know, it's important for them. And, yeah, time in their life. That is the biggest thing. That's all I can think about. To shut that down. Yeah, I really dislike that. That attitude that a lot of people have, and you see it a lot on social media that all teenage. But anyway, that's going off topic. But yeah, that's frustrating. Yeah. And that that will contribute to mental unwellness. So of course, and then you get some motherboard and you're not meant to complain, because everyone's a mother and everyone does it and blah, blah, blah, like either we if we can actually support our kids when they're going through that hard stuff as kids as teenagers. Just yeah, it might not prevent a mental health episode, but it might just make it less severe. might make it easier to get through might make it quicker for them to you know, overcome. I guess it Yeah. Anyway, I'm yeah. My first degree was actually originally in early childhood. Ah, right. Yep. So yeah, that was yeah, it's always been important to me to see kids to see teenagers as people as valid. They have emotions, and that's okay. They're not Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's important. Yeah. And I'm sure there's a lot of moms listening that have, you know, children of different age. So, you know, it's good to share what you know, actually, speaking of this, I'm going off topic again. But my my, Alex, my 14 year old, the other day, I made a decision. That wasn't what we would have agreed with. And, and I said to my husband, we can't, we can't punish him too much for this because his brain physically hasn't evolved to the point where you can make decisions the same way we can. And I just thought, gee, we as a society, we've come a long way, because that's not how my parents would have traded. No, you should have known better. What were you thinking? Well, my frontal prefrontal cortex hasn't evolved yet. So. Yeah, and I mean, you know, we're trying to negotiate. I mean, our parents probably did the same. You know, it's either you, you treat us as kids all throughout, no, you're just a kid, you can't make a decision. Or, on the other extreme, you know, you want to be treated like an adult, why aren't you acting like an adult? You know, those two extremes that, you know, you're either treating them like a kid or you're expecting them to behave like an adult. We need to do better at treating them, or meeting them where they're at. Yeah, and I think we are getting better. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, there's so much science out there. Now, that tells us this stuff. Like the reason I it's in front of front of my mind. It's in your frontal lobe. Pardon. I was listening to the radio last night, and there was this, this. I don't know what they were talking about to start with. But then they got on to the brain and they said that your brain evolves or matures from the back to the front. Like it's that's what we know. And it's like, Oh, my God, no wonder I made foolish decisions as a teenager. Like it just it there. The science is there to back it, you know, and you know, it's you can't argue with that. I feel like You know, we've got all these other tools in these, this information at our disposal now to be able to treat, you know, people of different ages with appropriate, you know, responses, you know? And that's why I'm mixed. I'm excited to see the next generation grow up. Oh, yes, they'll have been parented very differently. And I'm actually looking for I'm hoping I'm hopeful for them that they don't know that things are better for them that they're easier for them. That's all you want for your kids you want. What's better for them either. Anyway? Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Can you just give me a sec? I've just heard a knock on my door. Oh, sure. Please. Come nice. Hello, Dolly. I'm going really good to come say hello. Yeah. This is Rebecca. You've said a little bit. Nice to meet you. degree. This is my little. Oh, he's a champ. He's so funny. He often does call in and say hello to people. Yes, shut the door. He's gone yeah. And thank you for this space, I think it's so important we talk about, you know, not just creativity, but as a mother, you know, being able to because that's, you know, that's the job being a mom, we're meant to do that. 100% of the time, and yet, where people? Yeah, so being able to talk about, you know, how we find that balance, or whether we can actually find that balance or how we do it, you know, being able to talk about that I think is so important, because there is still so much guilt, there is still so much shame. If you're, you know, I could be doing more, I should be doing more. But that person's doing that, why aren't I you know, and we beat ourselves up and at what cost? You know, so I got on you for doing this and encouraging all of us really to keep doing what feels right. Yeah, thank you so much. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or share and you did say about, you're heading back to work, but this isn't going to stop for you. This is a, this is your passion, and you're going to keep doing this, which is I want to I want to get to a point obviously, where I can phase out of, you know, the nine to five, and I can work on this, I guess full time and you know, get paid two. That would be the goal. And I mean, I've got my little it's like a mini vision board. I'd say like it's got all my plans. Like I want to write a book, you know, finally, one that's not crap. I want to Yeah, I want to keep working in this field, whatever that looks like, whether it's also pumping out workbooks, like coming from my background with journaling or storytelling and being able to you know, facilitate. Yes, it's not a cure and God I would never market it as a cure but okay, he's something that we can maybe work on that might it helped me hopefully it helps you a little bit to like that's the stuff I would love to be doing doing the podcast doing the social media stuff. Yeah, just those kind of digital work you know, he's some journaling prompts was that like something like, you know, I'd love to just phase out of the nine to five and be able to focus on this because I I love sharing these stories. You know, I I was really worried when I started podcasting and interviewing people but the more I'm doing it, the more I realize. Yeah, like as much it's it's sad and it's confronting, like just hearing those stories and knowing that someone out there is actually trusting me with their story with their vulnerable experience just means the world and I don't take that lightly. Yeah, and I want to be able to do that justice and I want to be able to help them, you know, be able to facilitate the sharing of that story because I know that's not easy. But also help out The people that they're not alone. So if I can somehow figure out a way to make this work, you know, make this an actual job, so to say, then I'll do it. And hopefully one day I'll see myself as a creative. I still see myself as that organized planner, because that's, that was so indoctrinated in me. It's what I did to function in this world, I guess up until this point. Maybe I'll just have to find a balance between the two parts of myself. But yeah, one day. I'm hoping that that'll be what I can do. I can work in order to facilitate that right. Now, good on you. I really hope you do. That would be so awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been so lovely to talk to you and to meet you. And to talk face to face. Yeah. And I mean, I saw your story submission for my podcast. I was like, When can I message her to say she can come on my plane? I feel like I have to go on yours first. Because we've been trying to organize it. Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'd love to share your story too. If you're comfortable. Absolutely. It'll be pleasure. I'd be honored to actually be Yeah, thank you. We can we can negotiate. That good audio. Thank you. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Hannah Olson US artist S3 Ep90 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Hannah Olson is an artist and mother of 3 girls, living in Utah, USA. Originally from Luton England, she has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. In High School she had 2 really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and pencils, and encouraged her to pursue it. A high school teacher's words have remained with her "It doesn't matter what you do, but always stay creative." In College she decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered oil painting and fell in love with it. She tends not to stick to the same mediums, or subject matters, mixing it up between charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still life's. Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. She is inspired by many artists like William Bouguereau, Sargent, Van Gogh, Carl Rungius and more recent artists such as Jenedy Paige, Cesar Santos, and Andrew Tischler. While being a mum to three little ones is not easy, she finds time to paint and draw in between nappy changes, piles of wash, and endless messes. Although her children are her main focus right now she can't wait for the chance to create more and inspire others through her work. Today we are joined by Hannah's 5 month old daughter Millie today in the podcast. Hannah - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,800 Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,800 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,560 issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,280 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been 5 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:29,080 influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms and we also stray into territory such 6 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:33,480 as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 7 00:00:33,480 --> 00:00:37,920 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,200 link to the music played, how to get in touch and a link to join our supportive and lively 9 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 community on Instagram. 10 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,960 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at 11 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,840 any time you're concerned about your mental health I urge you to talk to those around 12 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,640 you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,160 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing 14 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,800 page alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,160 The art of being a mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water 16 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,320 which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bowendig people in the Beren region. 17 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,840 I'm working on land that was never ceded. 18 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,640 Thank you so much for tuning in today, welcome to the podcast. 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,520 My guest this week is Hannah Olson, she's an artist and a mother of three girls living 20 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,680 in Utah in the United States. 21 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,000 Originally from Luton in England, Hannah has enjoyed being creative from a very young age. 22 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:45,720 In high school she had two really wonderful art teachers that pushed her and introduced 23 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,880 her to many mediums like watercolour, charcoal and coloured pencils and encouraged her to 24 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:52,340 pursue art. 25 00:01:52,340 --> 00:01:56,640 A high school teachers words have stayed with her ever since, it doesn't matter what you 26 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,720 do but always stay creative. 27 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,680 In college Hannah decided to take all of the art classes she possibly could and discovered 28 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,640 oil painting and fell in love with it. 29 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,840 Nowadays she tends not to stick to the same mediums or subject matters, mixing it up between 30 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:18,720 charcoal and watercolours, painting portraits, landscapes and still lifes. 31 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:24,080 Hannah really enjoys the challenge of working with new materials and subjects. 32 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:29,840 She's inspired by many artists like Van Gogh and more recent artists such as Genity Page 33 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,920 and Cesar Santos. 34 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:36,320 And while being a mum to three little girls is not easy, Hannah finds the time to paint 35 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,480 and draw in between nappy changes, piles of washing and endless messes. 36 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Although her children are her main focus right now, she can't wait for the chance to create 37 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,240 more and inspire others through her work. 38 00:02:50,240 --> 00:03:00,440 Today on Hannah's chat you'll hear from her five month old daughter Millie who joins us. 39 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Thank you Hannah for coming on, it's such a pleasure to meet you today. 40 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,120 It's a pleasure to meet you too, I'm excited to be here. 41 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,640 Oh that's awesome. 42 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:13,240 So where abouts are you at the moment and what time is it? 43 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:20,440 So I currently live in Utah in the United States and it is 5.30 at night. 44 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,240 So you would be in Monday still wouldn't you? 45 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,160 Yes, it is still Monday here. 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,680 That's the thing I find so fascinating about doing this is like the other day I was talking 47 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,320 to someone, yeah it was their night before, I don't usually get people that are ahead 48 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:42,360 of me just because where Australia is, we're sort of fairly close to the start of the day 49 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:43,360 I suppose. 50 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,440 Yeah but yeah I've had some fun ones, like yeah I don't know it's just I find it so fascinating 51 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:56,000 that we're all here but we're all existing in these different times. 52 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,000 And can we introduce your little visitor you've got sitting on your lap there if that's alright? 53 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:05,960 Yes so this is Millie my youngest and she just turned five months old and she can be 54 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,360 quite loud hopefully she'll not be too bad. 55 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,320 That's cool if she wants to get involved in the chat that's fine with me. 56 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,320 We love her. 57 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,320 Oh she's adorable. 58 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Oh I love that blue headband you've got on her head, it really brings out her eyes like 59 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:24,120 it's just gorgeous. 60 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:28,520 I know my sister-in-law gave it to me, she gave me two of them and I'm like oh I need 61 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,520 one in every colour they're so fun. 62 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:57,640 I love it. 63 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,720 Tell me how you got into your painting, is it something you've been doing for a long 64 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:03,720 time? 65 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,640 So yes and no I've been creative since I feel like everyone has been creative at some point 66 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,520 growing up as a kid like you have your crayons and all that so it was something I always 67 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:20,960 enjoyed and then it wasn't until I hit high school I had two really wonderful art teachers 68 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:28,480 that pushed me and also introduced me to loads of different mediums mostly wash of colour 69 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:33,480 and charcoal and coloured pencils were the main ones I did but I feel like in school 70 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:40,080 they kind of show you a bunch of different kinds but they were the ones who really were 71 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:45,640 like I think you have a knack for it like you could be really good if you wanted to 72 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,840 and of course I had my mom who was very like thought everything I did was amazing which 73 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:51,840 was very helpful. 74 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,320 Yeah very supportive and encouraging. 75 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,880 And so I just remember my one teacher in high school kind of pulled me aside one day and 76 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:05,840 he's like it doesn't matter what you do but always stay creative and so I thought in my 77 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:15,600 head I was like okay it's with me and I've always wanted to do it since then and then 78 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,400 in college or I guess is it university over there? 79 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,520 Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. 80 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:28,240 I decided to just take all of the art classes I possibly could so the way they have it over 81 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:34,280 here is you have for your first few years like classes that you're required to take 82 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:37,840 so you've got your maths and your english and all of that and then you get elective 83 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:42,440 classes where you get to choose what you would like to do so I just filled them up with as 84 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,720 many art classes as I possibly could because that's what I enjoyed the most and just had 85 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,080 a blast and that's where I learned how to do oil painting. 86 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:58,600 I had one oil painting class and I fell in love with it so primarily I oil paint at the 87 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:04,800 moment but I do get a little bit bored every once in a while where I can't just stick to 88 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,440 one thing so it's like I'll do a couple oil paintings and then I'm like oh I really want 89 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,240 to do a watercolor so then I'll I'll do that and then oh I really want to do a charcoal 90 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,040 so I kind of jump all over the place and I feel like that's also kind of the same with 91 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,760 my my subject matter too. 92 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:31,160 I love portraits yeah I really like like emotions and people and faces and but at the same time 93 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,560 you know there's those there's good landscapes and still lifes that I'm like oh just you 94 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,360 walk by and see things you're like oh I just I need to paint that or I need to draw that 95 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,320 and so I kind of I hop all over the place which is why if you go on my Instagram it's 96 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:51,120 very mixed there's not like one nice aesthetic it's just all over the place. 97 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,320 Yeah I always like a good challenge so yeah there'll be times I'll be like scrolling through 98 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Instagram or I'll be talking to someone and I'll see that someone do something I'm like 99 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:06,080 oh I want to try that I wonder if I can do that and so I think that's also something 100 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:10,000 else that just makes me not stick to one thing. 101 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah. 102 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:12,000 I just have to try it all. 103 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:38,680 I love that. 104 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:41,720 You sound like you've got a UK accent going on. 105 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:50,600 Yeah I'm originally from England and when I get nervous it comes out usually I've been 106 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,080 in the States for quite a long time and even my husband is like I can't hear it anymore 107 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,080 it's gone away yeah when I get nervous I guess it's still there. 108 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,680 You revert back to your day to. 109 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:07,520 So yeah when you first when you said watercolour for the first time I went hang on a second 110 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:13,160 I can hear something in there so whereabouts were you from in England? 111 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:19,640 So I was born in Luton just kind of right near London and then my mom was Irish and 112 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:25,120 so we also lived in I lived in Ireland for a few years as well in my younger years and 113 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,520 she was a single mom during the beginning portion of my younger years and then she got 114 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:35,400 remarried and so we moved to Texas because that's where her my stepdad was living at 115 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:41,040 the time and then we moved to Utah he got a job change and so that's kind of how we 116 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,560 moved around and so I've just stayed here. 117 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:48,280 So how long have you been in the US for? 118 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:56,600 Oh let's see I'll do some quick math I'm not great at math probably about I don't know 119 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:57,600 seven years maybe? 120 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:58,600 Yeah right. 121 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,600 I want to say it's been quite a while. 122 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:07,680 Yeah I love that you've still got your accent though I think that's pretty cool but my best 123 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:14,040 friend's Irish from Northern Ireland and she's been out here maybe 12 years 11 or 12 years 124 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:18,040 and she's still thick as like I still have times where I have to ask her to repeat myself 125 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,280 hello Helen if you're listening but and it sort of becomes a bit of a joke like what 126 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,280 did you say say that again? 127 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,200 That's great you know it's gonna be funny when my friends hear me over here they're 128 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:32,200 like what's wrong with you you sound nothing like you did before. 129 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,840 Yeah that's it isn't it it's all relative isn't it oh that's funny so um yeah back to 130 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,120 you sorry I got off track then but I do have a bit of a thing for accents so I sort of 131 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,840 that's another fun thing about chatting to people. 132 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:51,880 So um the style that you do is quite like representative of the object that you're painting 133 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,800 what do you call that style because I'm not very good at all that sort of technical form 134 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:56,800 jargon. 135 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:06,840 Honestly I don't really know I feel like slightly like it's contemporary realist thing like 136 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,960 I like I like realism but I also like to see a little bit of a painterly touch to it if 137 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:19,640 that makes sense so I don't yeah I don't I enjoy looking at other people's photo realism 138 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,600 but that's not for me I'm I don't know if I have the patience to learn all the technical 139 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:30,320 skills for that so I enjoy I don't know I think I would call it contemporary realism 140 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,560 but I don't even know if that's a thing so yeah no well that I mean that that'll give 141 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:38,200 people an idea when they're listening but it's like just having a look at the sort of 142 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:42,360 the different styles like different things you've the subjects I guess there's a there's 143 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:48,160 a gorgeous picture of a cow which I love that I mean I love cows yeah and this building 144 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:54,560 that you posted a lot of posts about what what building is that the building so I don't 145 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:02,520 know that is a temple for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints down here in Manzai 146 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:08,760 and so that is just part of my religion and it was actually the place that I got married 147 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:17,920 in and oh wow that's pretty spectacular yeah and my my husband's family they his I think 148 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:23,640 it's third great grandfather was the master mason for building the temple and so it has 149 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:52,760 a lot of family history connected to it and so yeah absolutely 150 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:58,080 is this your second child you've got this is my third your third oh my apologies third 151 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:08,360 I've got I've got three girls oh lovely that would keep you busy oh they do they do a whole 152 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:15,240 new world when you have little ones running around so what's the the age the ages of them 153 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:22,720 so my eldest is Shannon and she's five and then my middle is Oakley and she's three and 154 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,120 then Millie here is five months little Millie oh I love the name Oakley that's a really 155 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:36,160 that's a really cool name love that yeah we uh oh no oh bubba we uh had a funny story 156 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:41,080 with that with my husband we have a really hard time picking out names especially for 157 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:49,080 girls and of course we had all girls the one you know yeah those are the tough ones and 158 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:54,600 I I was just scrolling through I think I was on Pinterest actually just looking at different 159 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,720 names and I saw the name Oakley and I was like oh I kind of like that and I mean by 160 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,680 this point I was already like I don't know 30 some odd weeks pregnant like it's a long 161 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:10,120 time yeah it was coming close so we needed to make a decision and uh I turned to my husband 162 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:14,560 I was like I like this name Oakley he's like I suggested that at the beginning and oh you 163 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:20,360 like had you didn't say anything about it I'm like oh well I like it now I guess oh how 164 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:29,440 funny oh dude hello look at that gorgeous smile hey hey darling oh goodness I worked 165 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:33,880 in childcare for nine years and I was in the baby's room for most of that so and now I 166 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:38,720 work in kindergarten so I miss out on the all the baby snuggles so it's nice to see 167 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,640 the baby snuggles are the best they're my favorite 168 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,840 So throughout the time when you had have had your girls have you have you've been able 169 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,960 to maintain your art practice? 170 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:23,160 I guess I should say it was different I guess I should say that it stopped it was just different 171 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:34,080 and came in waves yeah I feel like when I had my first after you know after a month 172 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:40,840 or so we kind of got in a little bit more of a rhythm and I was able to set aside like 173 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:47,760 okay I'm gonna wake up an hour earlier and focus on myself and have an hour of painting 174 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,920 and get that done and that was really helpful for me but I discovered the more kids you 175 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:59,960 have the less you can plan it is so difficult to plan when you have three little minds completely 176 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:08,280 different to yours and I don't know I feel like but I do feel like I have learned from 177 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:15,320 having kids that not to waste time like I'm really good at not wasting my time when I 178 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,920 have like oh I've got an hour that I can spend I could tell you exactly what I was gonna 179 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,880 do with that hour right now whereas I feel like before I had kids I'd be like oh I've 180 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:34,600 got all day I don't have work today so I can just you know I'll watch a show or maybe sleep 181 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,000 in I'll do this and then by the time I got around to him like oh it's too late now like 182 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,600 I should be going to bed and so I feel like I'm a lot better now with time management 183 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:52,360 but I just have less time to work with so yeah yeah it kind of you know it just depends 184 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,640 it does help sometimes having like I'll bring the kids in with me into my my little space 185 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:03,560 and I'll set them up with their paints or their colors and that works out it works out 186 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:08,200 decent however you don't get to get like in the zone because I don't know if you've been 187 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:14,040 around little kids but they ask questions all day long and it's like I've answered that 188 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:19,720 question 50 times but I will answer it again for you yeah and now give me five minutes 189 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,280 so yeah that's it isn't it yeah but I feel like there's a difference between getting 190 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:30,440 just time to yourself and also spending time with your kids doing your your craft yeah it's 191 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:35,640 sort of like only half your your brain can work on what you want to do because they're there and 192 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:40,360 you're sort of conscious of what they're up to and like you said the questions and they seem to you 193 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:45,800 know their patience runs out so much quicker and you know it's like you just yeah like you said you 194 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,720 can't get in that in that flow of letting letting yourself go but but that's but that's a really 195 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:56,520 common thing that people say you know and I often say like when I didn't have kids I don't know what 196 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:04,440 the hell I did with my time like I must have wasted so much time seriously I know yeah I 197 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:11,640 I hear when my I have two younger sisters and I think back to when I was their age I'm like 198 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:21,560 like what did I do with myself like yeah yeah I don't know yeah yeah that's not a whole answer 199 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,360 but I I have no idea what I did because there's so many things I want to do now that I can't do and 200 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:41,720 oh yeah you know what it's worth it 201 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:06,040 So something I like to talk to my mums about is sort of the identity of you know when you're just 202 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:11,080 you just yourself or you know with your partner and then you become a mum did you have sort of 203 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:18,680 any sort of I don't know tricky emotions to work through when you changed to become a mum or were 204 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:26,360 you did you sort of flow through really you know effortlessly I guess I mean I think it depends on 205 00:19:26,360 --> 00:19:35,320 the day because I feel like yes definitely there was an identity difference but I was lucky in that 206 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:41,960 growing up I always wanted to be a mum and so it was something I almost wanted to do more than my 207 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:48,920 art and I think that is helpful because I'm like I know that there's a time in a season with my 208 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:54,360 girls at this age and that at some point you know they're going to be in school and I'm going to 209 00:19:54,360 --> 00:20:02,360 have that time back again so I think I think in that way it wasn't too hard but I mean you do get 210 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:07,880 those days when you just don't feel like yourself and you're like I just I wish this day could just 211 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:14,600 be me creating with no one else bothering me and I mean I feel like everyone's going to have a hard 212 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:21,720 day sometime but the majority of the days I feel like no I'm doing what I want to be doing and 213 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:27,320 yeah there will be will be time so yeah that's it it's a good way of looking at it like I um 214 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,800 I was actually at a function on Saturday night and there were some people there whose daughter's just 215 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:37,480 turned 20 and got a license and now they have no children to run around or take to places and 216 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,600 they're like what do we do with ourselves now and I'm like that will come you know that's because 217 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,800 my kids are seven and 15 so at some point in my life I won't have to do that and then I'll go oh 218 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:54,360 my gosh this is my time now so yeah it's like don't don't stress too much because you know it's coming 219 00:20:54,360 --> 00:21:09,800 yeah yeah absolutely 220 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,240 um 221 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,960 with you creating and with the girls um something else I love to talk to my mums about is this 222 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:33,240 concept of mum guilt and I've sort of put that in air quotes because I don't know it's a it's a 223 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,600 made-up name I guess to that describes a lot of really deep and complex feelings it's not just 224 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:46,600 as simple as you know hashtag mum guilt um yeah what are your thoughts on that so I 100% have mum 225 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:53,960 guilt or whatever we want to call it and I think that's probably my number one struggle as a mom 226 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:59,640 is just dealing with the emotions of feeling like oh I should be doing other things I should be with 227 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:07,240 my children um I feel like for me it it almost clicks like as soon as I'm feeling happy about 228 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,600 something it's like as soon as I'm enjoying what I'm doing I'm instantly like oh should I not be 229 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,960 enjoying myself right now there's a pile of wash that needs to be done or I haven't played any 230 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,000 games like children today or and it kind of it's just in the back of your head and it never goes 231 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:31,160 away um and I I do have I do struggle with trying to figure out when it's okay to be like no this is 232 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:38,760 me time I can focus on myself and do my craft right now and then also yes I have two weeks of 233 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,720 wash that's in the laundry room and I've got dishes piled up and the floors are a mess and 234 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,640 my kids are eating snacks off the floor I should probably stop and yeah you know like yeah yeah 235 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:58,040 it's I have yet to figure out like the best oh uh is it possible I don't know 236 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:03,880 oh that's the thing I feel like yeah I feel like getting it right and and that's also in 237 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,640 air quotes too because I don't I don't think there is a right or wrong it's just whatever 238 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,840 suits but it's really hard to get that balance constantly like I feel like sometimes you feel 239 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,480 like it's going really good and then other times like the scales tip in this the other direction 240 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,520 you go oh hang on a sec like that's literally me right now I've got so much washing to do 241 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,760 so much tidying to do and I'm like actually I don't want to do that now I want to do this 242 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:37,960 oh it was it was like me last night I was so I was so on top of it last night because I knew 243 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,920 that I had this podcast and I was so excited about it that I was like I'm gonna clean my living room 244 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,800 my kitchen while the kids are in bed and then tomorrow I can just focus and look at my notes 245 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:53,480 and it's gonna be so smooth and so great never think you have a plan when you have kids you just 246 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,600 can't because I woke up in the morning well I woke up about eight times last night well I think it 247 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:03,000 was really only six but it felt like a lot because my little Millie who's usually a really good 248 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:08,440 sleeper and sleeps through the night decided last night was the night to wake up and then 249 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:16,840 I woke up really tired but I'm like oh you know what it's fine because I I cleaned and I was like 250 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,880 the only thing I have to do today is clean the girls playroom because let's be honest it probably 251 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,680 been about two months since I had cleaned it and it was a little bit disastrous so if I'm gonna 252 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,960 bring stuff in here to record I need to have it clean but I was like that's grand and so I 253 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:39,240 told my eldest I was like Shannon the only thing I need to do today is clean the playroom downstairs 254 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:46,520 and have you girls keep upstairs tidy as well and so she's like okay and then she ran off and I 255 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,800 started getting ready I was feeling so proud of myself for just like being on top of it and like 256 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,440 oh it was eight in the morning and I was dressed and I was getting you know like I was on top of 257 00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:03,960 it today yeah and then of course she comes running in and goes mom mom I have a surprise for you 258 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:12,040 I'm thinking okay I mean usually her surprises are like oh I tidied up the toys in the living 259 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,200 room or I helped my sister put on her shoe you know they're usually good surprises 260 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,520 so I'm not you know I'm like great thank you I'm gonna finish getting ready and then I would love 261 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,520 to see your surprise yeah and then she leaves and then I keep getting ready and then she comes back 262 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:33,560 again she's like are you ready yeah I'm ready to show you my surprise and I'm like well okay um not 263 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:40,360 yet just give me one minute she's like it's either gonna be a good surprise but it could be a bad 264 00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:47,080 surprise oh no I hope it's a good surprise because you I don't for the most part they're good 265 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,200 surprises she hardly ever gives me bad ones so I'm like okay just give me a minute but she was so 266 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,000 excited to tell me so I'm like for sure she's done something great because she's so excited 267 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,520 so excited finished getting ready and I call out and I'm like hey Shannon I'm ready for your surprise 268 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,880 and she's like I'm downstairs like oh did she start cleaning because I told her I really wanted 269 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:13,000 to clean and that would be like so sweet of her because you know she's so nice and I come down 270 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:19,080 the stairs and the door of the playroom is closed and I'm like let's never close wonder why she 271 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:28,280 closed it and I open the door and we have this it's like a shelving unit that's like steps that you 272 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:37,000 can store toys inside and I don't know if you've seen them yet and so as I open the door she is 273 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:44,360 standing proudly on the top part of this cabinet and all of the buckets have been taken out and 274 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:53,800 dumped all over the floor oh she just looks at me with pure joy I've destroyed the place 275 00:26:54,360 --> 00:27:04,200 just so proud of herself and I'm like Shannon oh lord I wanted to clean and she's like are you so 276 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:13,320 proud of my surprise I'm not proud of your surprise oh it's not a good surprise but you know I feel 277 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,360 like that's just what it's like having kids yes you feel like you're on top of it and then they 278 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:24,920 have to do something to show you no mom you're not on top of it I'm in charge today and let me 279 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:31,080 show you how I feel about that so I mean I love that story oh Shannon they're fabulous 280 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:40,680 but man they can be tough sometimes oh goodness oh she was helping wasn't she yeah 281 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:46,920 yeah and she did tell me she did tell me she's like I'll help you clean it up it's okay and then I'm 282 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,440 like okay that would be nice and as I'm cleaning she's like just in a minute and then she'd like 283 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,000 pull more stuff out as I'm cleaning and I'm like Shannon we're trying to clean up and she's like 284 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,360 yes but I'm making a soup and then she would like keep making a soup and then eventually we got the 285 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:07,880 whole room clean and she's like see didn't I do such a good job cleaning that up mom and I was 286 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:14,840 like I did a good job cleaning that up thank you you did a great job making more mess and making 287 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:22,840 so it was okay oh my gosh I love that yeah you literally you never know what you're gonna get 288 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,640 you literally you never know what you're gonna get do you like I feel like that it's sort of like 289 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,440 the story like you know when you're about to go to work and your car doesn't start like I feel like 290 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,520 that's parenting all the time but with your children like there's always something just gonna 291 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:43,240 get thrown at you yeah 100% and it's always when you least expect it when you think you've got it 292 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,120 that's when it yes yeah it's like it lulls you into this false sense of security it's like 293 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:54,440 hmm no now we're gonna wreck it yeah oh god and then they keep coming they're just more and more 294 00:28:54,440 --> 00:29:06,840 you know yeah oh man it wears you out doesn't it 295 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:14,200 so 296 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,240 you're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom I was so 297 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,560 do you have family nearby where you are like to help out with the girls 298 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,920 I do yes so um my I have my mom and my stepdad and my two younger sisters and they live 299 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:42,120 about 30 40 minute drive from our house so they're really close and then my husband all of his family 300 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:50,360 live in Utah and so most of them are about an hour away but still close when we need them so yeah 301 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:58,200 oh that's great isn't it yeah yeah we've got good support there yeah that's comes in handy my mom's 302 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:05,560 the best what does your mom think now like because you said before she really encouraged your like 303 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,320 when you made things when you were little like is she like look at what you do now and is like 304 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:15,160 super proud of that you've been able to keep doing it oh yeah I mean I think so she's all she I mean 305 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:22,840 is she allowed to say that I'm doing terrible I don't know she never does not to you she's she I 306 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:28,520 mean anything I do she's like oh I think that's amazing and of course growing up I think I don't 307 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:34,120 know if it was my last years of high school or when I was in college I painted a few paintings 308 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:39,560 for fun and she bought them she was the first person to really buy some of my paintings and 309 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,800 I'm sure it was for way more than they were actually worth but it made me feel so good inside 310 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,920 that someone wanted to purchase my art instead of just look at it and I think that really that 311 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:55,240 really helped and so lots of times when I'm feeling down on myself I can uh I'll give her a ring and 312 00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:03,160 ask for her advice or for her her love and support because she's more than happy to give it um yeah 313 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:10,040 today my Shannon again uh I decided to ask her because I was like wouldn't it be nice for the 314 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:16,920 podcast to have like this really sweet story of like asking my kids like oh like how do you feel 315 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,360 about mom and her art and what kind of moment or am I you know because yeah yeah I just thought 316 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:28,520 oh it'd be so nice and so I asked Shannon and I was like what kind of mom do you think I am like 317 00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,840 do you you know I was like am I doing a good job you know kind of yeah she looks at me she goes 318 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:41,880 you're just a really frustrated mom all the time that was not what I was going for Shannon oh 319 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:50,200 my gosh maybe she didn't understand it so I'm like what about like that I do art and that I'm kind of 320 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,840 creative and I I teach you things do you like do you like doing art with me do you like my art 321 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,400 what do you think of that and she's like well to be honest the last one you did I didn't really like 322 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:07,640 and I just didn't want to tell you because you seem to really like it thank you oh my gosh 323 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:15,640 she will forever be honest she's such a character isn't she yeah she's so funny she's so funny 324 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,760 I feel like we need to have like a section of this podcast dedicated to Shannon she's like earned her place 325 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:31,000 yeah oh I love her yeah but that's the thing like I love I love this this idea that you know 326 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:36,600 we are as mothers we have this mothering role but we still have all these things 327 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:41,720 that we do apart from that and that we did do before we had kids so it doesn't just stop you 328 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,360 know all of a sudden we have a baby and this part of our lives just disappears into thin air so 329 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:51,880 I think it's I don't know that holding on to that part of yourself and that identity 330 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:57,240 I think is so important and Shannon's obviously seen it to be able to give her critique 331 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:07,400 she gave me a piece of advice as well today where she was like it would be better if I could do it 332 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,520 with you but sometimes you don't let me and I don't like that so I think she just wants to be more 333 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:21,000 involved and yeah you know which is easy to say a little bit more difficult to do with you know 334 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:28,040 yeah you're doing these um very detailed and yes yeah oh goodness 335 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:51,480 now it sounds like a lot of fun in your house it is it's a bit of a madhouse but I wouldn't change it 336 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:13,000 so online I noticed that you you sell like your prints and that sort of stuff do you have um 337 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:17,640 and like you mentioned about your mum your mum purchasing you some of your early stuff that you 338 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:24,040 made do you sort of have this idea about the value of your your art or the value of your 339 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:32,040 your creativity that it's dependent on what you get for it or that society can still value art 340 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:38,920 even if it doesn't have a monetary value attached to it um that's a good question I think 341 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:47,480 I don't know I feel like deep in me I'm a little bit of a people pleaser so I feel like when 342 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:54,760 when I do sell a work of art I get very excited especially because I don't sell very many I'm I 343 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,400 don't have a whole lot of time and when I do do commissions they usually take me anywhere from 344 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,720 like six to eight months to complete because I don't have a lot of time to work on them so 345 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:15,160 those I do like I don't know it does make me happy however I do feel like um almost more so when I 346 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:22,280 someone sees a work that I've done or when they purchase it and then they tell me how they feel 347 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:30,440 about it like it makes it 10 times better like I would much rather have someone look at my work 348 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:35,800 and say that really affected me or changed my life or really touched me then I would sell the 349 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:40,680 work to someone that I don't even know if they appreciate it if that makes sense so yeah so I do 350 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:50,040 I do feel like there's um I don't know there's a lot of worth in just the work without it being 351 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:59,960 sold however it does you know I do like when it gets sold yeah yeah yeah no I could like a lady 352 00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:05,720 I spoke to the other day um put it really well said like as artists we sort of exist to be able 353 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:12,440 to share and and like whatever things that have influenced or things we're going through that we 354 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:18,840 put into our work it's so lovely if someone at the other end can relate to that in their own way um 355 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:36,120 and then if they tell you about it that's even better you know yeah 100% agree with that yeah 356 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:50,120 yeah 357 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,600 did you notice after you had your girls after you became a mum that what influenced your work changed 358 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:06,520 I mean yes yes it did there was an influence however I also feel like I have so many ideas 359 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,840 of things that would show that a lot more I feel like in the work that's on my instagram 360 00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:19,000 there isn't a lot that's child related or any I don't know you know what I'm talking about 361 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:25,080 anything like that however I have like I do have a picture of my girls that I've started painting 362 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:32,920 that I just love and I love the idea of kids when they like discover new things like my 363 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,440 littlest Millie here the other day found her toes and we she was just sitting just sitting in the 364 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:43,400 bumbo just in like a little seat on my counter just playing with her toes and she was just so 365 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:49,240 full of wonder and I'm like that would be just the perfect little like little picture of just 366 00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:55,320 her toes and her her cuteness and there's I don't know just when like kids go outside and they see 367 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,720 I don't know birds or something my my middle child Oakley the other day we were on a drive 368 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,080 and she was like birds I see birds there's two of them and she was just so thrilled at the idea of 369 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:14,280 seeing birds I'm like I would love to capture just that happiness and that wonder of that just that 370 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,400 that excitement so I feel like somewhere down the line there's going to be some works of mine that 371 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:29,720 encompass just childhood wonder because I really I really enjoy that and I think also with some of my 372 00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,840 my religious pieces I have a few of those that I would like to work on and just to kind of share 373 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,440 that with my girls and have that feeling in our household and share that with the world too would 374 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:48,760 be would be really nice so yeah absolutely I feel like that because like I said I worked in in early 375 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,960 childhood for a long time and that moment when kids discover something it's just this just when 376 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,360 you were telling me about it then I was getting that that beautiful like warm feeling and almost 377 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:04,040 like goosebumps like it's just I think as adults we just we've seen it all we take it all for granted 378 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,960 and then when you're brought back to those minuscule tiny moments like toes you just it blows your mind 379 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:17,640 and just it's wonderful yeah I love it I think we need to have more moments like that where we just 380 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:27,800 stop and look at our toes and go oh my god the world's amazing yeah especially in this busy busy world 381 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,560 yeah and that's it isn't it and then you know we've got all these distractions and things that 382 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:37,480 are there to take our time up and you can we can sort of lose track of what's just you know the most 383 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,400 important stuff no it's right in front of us and sometimes we don't see it 384 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:46,200 sorry I'm getting all philosophical now 385 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,440 by the way I love the way you said grand before because my Irish friends say grand all the time 386 00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:00,360 oh that's grand they say oh I love it probably my mom and me 387 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,360 yeah no I love that 388 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,360 I love that 389 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,800 so have you got any pieces that you're working on anything you want to share about future works or 390 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:33,560 anything at all so I mean I have really a lot of work to do and I'm really excited about it and 391 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:40,520 I'm looking forward to it I'm looking forward to getting to do some of my own books or anything at all 392 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:50,200 so I mean I have my one painting that you can see on my Instagram of a pioneer lady and for 393 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:58,360 for me with that painting I really wanted to kind of symbolize the strength of women and just um 394 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:06,840 the Mormon pioneers. I won't go into detail about it, but basically they came across the 395 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:13,400 plains in hand carts during all types of weather and faced lots of hardships to arrive in Utah and 396 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:22,280 eventually, you know, make their city and live and, what's the word I'm looking for, 397 00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:30,920 have their religion as they wanted to. But there's so many stories about just how strong those 398 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,600 women were and what they went through. And I mean, they had children and family members who passed 399 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:44,840 away and there was, I don't know, there's just a lot for me that I look up to in the pioneer women. 400 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,480 And I just wanted to, I don't know, I just wanted to kind of capture that in a painting. And I don't 401 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:56,680 think I'm there yet. I still feel like there's a few things that I need to add or do, but that is 402 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:03,160 the main one that I'm working on is just, I want to paint a strong, powerful woman who's been through 403 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:10,840 a lot, but also knows she's doing it for a purpose. So that's my main one. And then, 404 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:18,200 I don't know, I had an idea the other day from a friend to do with my kids. She showed me 405 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,760 someone painting a little, one of their little kids stuffed animals and all of my girls have a 406 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:30,360 little stuffed animal that they just adore. In fact, they're kind of my eldest elder too, 407 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,600 they're kind of torn to pieces. They get chewed on and they were loved. I mean, honestly, 408 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:39,480 they're a little bit gross for anyone except for my girls, right? I'm like, how sweet would that be 409 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:46,680 just to have all three of them on a shelf just to represent my children? And we'll see, but 410 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,800 you know, got to get through this other one first. 411 00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,880 That's the thing when you've got so many ideas, it's like literally, 412 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,840 yeah, you've got to actually have the time to do all these ideas. 413 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,320 Yeah, well, I have a page in my sketchbook of like, oh, this is something I want to paint, 414 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:07,960 this is something I want to paint or draw. And there's a whole long list of them. I will never 415 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:15,320 be out of ideas. I just need a bit more time. Yeah, not short of ideas. I love that. 416 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,280 Is it important to you that they see you as more than in your mothering role? And I don't say just 417 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:49,080 a mum, I've got to stop saying that because we're not just a mum. But yeah, more of them the mothering 418 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:59,880 role. Yes, I think anytime you can show your kids how you can be your own person, but also 419 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:11,400 be a mum at the same time. I have an aunt who growing up, she was also a young mother and then 420 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,800 also did art. And I came to stay with her for a little while and she showed me her portfolio. 421 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,680 And I was just amazed at her skill and her talent and how she was still able to, 422 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:27,400 you know, paint and draw and do the things she loved and also still have kids because I was like, 423 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:32,760 that's what I want to be doing. And so it was nice to have someone to look up to, to be like, 424 00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:38,280 no, she can do it, I can do it too. And so I think it is good. Even if my children 425 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,080 don't end up into art or don't want to be creative in something, I think just showing them that 426 00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,280 you don't have to be just one thing in your life. You can be a multitude of things, I think is 427 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,640 important. Yeah, that's very well said. I like that. Because I think it doesn't have to be a 428 00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:00,360 thing in particular, like you said, doesn't, they don't have to take it on, but it's, it's saying 429 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:07,080 that mums can do lots and lots of different things and things that don't necessarily revolve around 430 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,560 that mothering role. Yeah, for sure. As I was, I don't know what question it was, as I was going 431 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:19,480 through some stuff, I got thinking about myself, I think it was talking about like identity maybe, 432 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:25,960 and just that there's my one aunt always tells me, she's like, there's a time in a season that, 433 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:31,480 you know, right now you're raising your children and that's a beautiful, wonderful thing. And then 434 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,480 later you're going to have an amazing time doing your art or whatever it is you'd like to do. 435 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:42,920 And so I got thinking about how I sometimes feel, feel bad that, or like feel like I'm missing out 436 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,400 because I haven't gotten myself out there. Like you scroll through Instagram or social media and 437 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:53,240 you see like all of these moms doing it and more like accomplishing what you want to, but, or even 438 00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:59,240 people that aren't moms just, you know, being out there and doing things. And I think sometimes I 439 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:05,400 get down on myself thinking like, Oh man, like, did I, did I mess up somewhere? Did I, you know, 440 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:12,120 did I have kids too early? But then I realized like, I'm not, I'm not ruining my chances by having, 441 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:17,720 by having kids. Cause there's still going to be, there's still going to be time. And I heard this 442 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:26,600 analogy that it was, it was talking about how being creative is kind of like exercise. And it's like, 443 00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:35,000 it's preferable every day to exercise. I mean, if we could, it would be really great, wouldn't it? 444 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:42,200 But it's not like a must has to be done. You have to exercise. And if you went to the doctor and 445 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:48,440 you said, I am so sorry. It's been two years since I've exercised. I'm just going to quit because I 446 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:56,520 can't do it anymore. I've forgotten how to do it. I'm done. Like, I'm sorry. I've given up. I can't 447 00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:03,480 do it. No doctor is going to be like, you're right. You haven't done, you haven't exercised in two 448 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,600 years or five years or 10 years. You can't exercise anymore. It will not be good for you. I mean, 449 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:14,120 that would just be, that would be ridiculous. So it's the same way with, with your craft, whatever 450 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:20,920 it is that you choose to do. Like it doesn't matter if you've had a 10 year break, if you said, 451 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,800 Hey, I have children and I want to raise them and I haven't done it in 10 years. You can always start 452 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:33,720 back again. You can always do a little thing. Even just five minutes here and there, it's only going 453 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:39,960 to make you better. It's not going to be any worse for you than just leaving it behind. 454 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:47,320 Cause I feel like at one point when I had my first daughter, I didn't paint for a really long time 455 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:54,440 because I just couldn't find time for it. And I just, you know, it's difficult because you're 456 00:47:54,440 --> 00:48:00,440 getting used to a whole new life with a little baby. And I thought to myself, is this it? Should 457 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:08,680 I be, should I be done? Like, should I give it up? And that's just silly. I eventually learned like 458 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:16,360 I go crazy if I don't paint. Like I, I can't not be creative. And when I try, I just, it's like, 459 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,680 I'm about to explode. I get in this big bubble and then I'm like, I give up and just everything, 460 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,720 you know, it kind of all goes to pot. And then I just, I spend all day painting and 461 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:30,920 the house becomes a mess. And my husband wonders what happens. And I'm like, I'm sorry. It had been 462 00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:39,960 too long. He's so nice. He understands that some days that's how it's going to be. But anyway, 463 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,800 but yeah, I just really liked that. It's like, it's just like exercise. Even if you've left it 464 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:49,960 for a long time, you could always go back to it. And so what there will be days when you'll get 465 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:54,120 you'll get, you won't do anything, but then there'll be other days where you'll get in the zone and 466 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:59,160 get lots of work done and it'll be great. Yeah. No, I love that. That's really good. I've never 467 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:04,280 heard anyone put it quite like that. That's really good. Love that. And I think it's so true. And a 468 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:10,200 lot of moms say this, if, if they're not filled up, you know, the cups not filled up, the metaphor, 469 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,920 you know, you can't pour from an empty cup. If you haven't done the things that make you regulated 470 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:20,680 and fulfilled, then you're not going to go out into your family and project, you know, perhaps 471 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:25,800 the person that you want to be. So it is so important to do these things for ourselves. And 472 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:31,080 it just makes for an all rounder, you know, more harmonious household, I guess. 473 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:40,520 Until Shannon does something in the play. I've just got a vision in my head of your daughter. 474 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:47,240 I just love that. Oh, I do. Little Jim. Thank you so much for coming on Hannah. I loved your chat 475 00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:53,480 today. It's been gorgeous meeting little Miss Millie here. Hey, little darling. Thank you for 476 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:59,320 having me. I feel really special that you let me join. I was going through all your podcasts and 477 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,240 listening to all of these other wonderful women and their stories. And I'm like, I don't think I 478 00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:09,960 have anything to add on these people. Oh my gosh. No, you have so much to add. They have such good 479 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:17,640 information. Oh, no, no, it was never feel like that. You've got so much to add. And honestly, 480 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:25,240 that imposter syndrome too, you know, oh, yes. Yeah. Kick it to the curb. There you go. Bye bye. 481 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:33,560 Imposter syndrome. Yeah. No, good on you. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've 482 00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:39,560 enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to 483 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:45,480 the podcast or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you 484 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,040 know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the 485 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:57,720 show notes. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alem Joe, which is my new age 486 00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:03,080 ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. 487 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:09,160 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. I'll catch you again 488 00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:13,400 next week for another chat with an artistic mum.