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Jade Thompson Australian crochetter and designer S1 Ep11 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Jade Thompson AKA The Crotchet Mama from Mt Gambier, South Australia. She is a mum of 2 girls. Jade has been a creator her whole life in many different ways, inspired by the women around her. She has come into her own over the past year, creating and sharing her crochet animals and creations, and has been blown away by the popularity of them. We chat about how she identifies a feminist stay-at-home mum, finding a Doctor who will listen to your mental health concerns and setting boundaries around your self care and creative needs. **This episode contains discussions/mentions of OCD, post-natal anxiety, an abusive relationship and anxiety.** Connect with Jade here - https://www.instagram.com/the.crochet.mama/ Find Jade's work featured in online Christmas magazine here Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/artofbeingamum_podcast/ When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies.. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creators and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Jade Thompson, aka the crochet mama Jade is from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two girls. Today we chatted about how she identifies as a feminist stay at home mom, finding a doctor who will listen to your mental health concerns and setting boundaries around your self care and creative needs. This episode contains discussions and mentions of OCD, postnatal anxiety, abusive relationships and anxiety. Welcome Jade, it's lovely to have you on the podcast. Thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. I follow you on Instagram, the crochet mama, which I think is a really cute name. Tell us about what you do and how you got into it. I make little crochet animals I got into it are probably about eight or nine years ago, my eldest didn't like sleeping ever. So there was a lot of late nights up on Pinterest, just trying to keep myself awake. And yeah, I came across these little animals, I thought, well, I'm so cute. And then I sort of thought, oh, actually, my mom knows how to crochet maybe I can learn and do that. I like the, like 20 different, you know, like, I don't like this whole, traditional, you know, like the 70s type crochet and all that. Like I wanted something that was modern and fun. And it just sort of, I just love making them in the position sort of grew to a point where my kids had too many toys. And a few people said you should sell these and I'm like, I don't think people are gonna want to buy them like, but they did. And here we are. Yeah. So yeah, when you say that sort of crochet, previous eras, you'd sort of think of Nana's making doilies, or you know, that kind of stuff. Occasionally, those crocheting pants and ties and you're like, ah, what is that? Definitely none of that happening at the crochet right. Tell us about your children. You mentioned your eldest that didn't sleep. Tell us about your kids. Yeah, I've got two girls. They are nine about to turn 10 and four turning five at the end of the year. Yeah, they're both. They're great. I've been at home with them since I had my oldest, which has been to be really cool. Yeah. And they're both at school and kindy. And gives me just a little bit of time to try and, you know, get the house clean for a minute before I come home and trash it. My toys and catch my breath for a minute. But yeah. You said that you started when your eldest was not sleeping about that period. What what did you use it as sort of a way to cope? Or was it purely something to just entertain you looking at your phone while they were sleeping? I guess it was. She just she always had to be on me. So I'd get asleep but I couldn't put it down because she'd wake up again. So just sort of sitting up trying not to move. So yeah, initially when I started it was just because I just wanted to make things for her. I had all these ideas of things that looked so cute, and I thought she would love them. Yeah, it was for her really and then through doing it I found that it helped me with all my thoughts and calming things and I just really enjoyed it like it was always there for me to pick up. It never changed it was always the same and I could just make these things and have a minute of just creating something I've always loved creating things and it's something I just love to do. Yeah, almost here before you got into crochet what others ways of creating were you doing? Well, ever since I was a little kid actually I can remember back as far as when I was little I was always into just pushing things up. I guess like I I would my bedroom was like this highly decorated thing. I mean, obviously kids don't have money. So you make, do you make something new? I would. I went through a stage I remember when I was a little girl, I would cut out little pictures in magazines that I loved and stick them all over boxes and containers and use them to store my craft stuff in I would paint everything like, yeah, and then close it. I do. I've always loved drawing, sketching bit of painting. There was a time when I was maybe a teenager, I sort of always had to create. And then when I was a teenager, I ended up in a abusive relationship. And that sort of, I didn't create for such a long time. there because I guess, anytime I did something like that it was tucked down onto so I sort of stopped doing that. Which Yeah, I'm not if I can't create on your need to be able to create, it makes me happy. And then after that, when I live by myself for a while, I got back into painting a bit and just doing my own plates. That was just mine. But I didn't really share with people because I thought that people think that that was stupid or not like it used to be not a positive thing. So then it wasn't really until I got together with my husband. And he just liked me for who I was whether I was a giant nerd or anything like that. He just like me. And his mom is like this person who she can quilt, she can make clothes, she can knit, she can crochet she can paint, she does everything. And I would go to their house and there's this obvious craft I was like, like, and then that sort of started me off again. I got into scrapbooking for a little while and I do my wedding album. And bit more painting and sketching then, yeah, and then I ended up with I did sewing, I bought a sewing machine and I've made lots of things and made some clothes and baby stuff. And then it went into crochet and always need to be using my hands kids enjoy seeing you do it. Oh, yeah, they love it. They always saying what are you up to? And can I see the face and that will help me my eldest is really good with helping me out colors. And sometimes like, I'll be like I said, my husband, I should have puppies, but here or here and he will look at me like, What are you asking me for? I'm useless at this stuff. But my eldest she's really although both are really quite arty kids. And they'll say, oh, no, mom that should play like this. Okay, all right. And yeah. Yeah, my pattern books, they go through them because I make them some every year for birthdays and Christmas and stuff. And it's a big exciting thing to get my pattern books down and to go through and pick them out. There's little loan, like post it note cans in there saying I want this one. This one's for my birthday. This one's for Christmas. And that's beautiful. So you've like created this tradition, I suppose. It's like, when I was a kid, we'd look through the woman's weekly cake each year to see what it's like a similar thing to each year. And you know, it's actually going to turn out good. Where's the cake? Cake stressing me out. I'm like, Oh my gosh, it's never gonna look like this. What am I doing? So really, you created your whole life, it's almost like you needed to feel the confidence to share with others. I suppose. I started posting it. I don't really do Facebook, it stresses me out. But I mainly go on Instagram. So I would put up little things that aren't made on my private page and people say, Oh, this is really cool. And I'm like, Oh, thanks, but I'm sure you're just saying it to be nice, you know? And then I had a few people say, oh, you should sell these. I'm like, no one's gonna buy this. Like, you know, it's just what people say to people. I was surprised that people liked them as much as they do. You know, honestly A lot my mommy's always say I was like, Chris, highly sensitive person, that sort of thing. So I like creating and things like that has always been, like making my space comfortable. And like the OCD and all that. And I guess how I just switches me off. Because I did find, like my mental health, I was always not great when I was a kid. Like the anxiety and the worries and all that, but it did get better for a while. And then something I just remember when I was pregnant with my eldest, something, I could feel this. Like this shift, like something just wasn't right. And I was just so anxious all the time, I was terrified that something was wrong with the pregnancy. And I go to the doctors all the time and be like, no, no, she's fine. She's fine. It's a textbook pregnancy. I'm like, There's something wrong, there's something wrong. And my husband was sort of like, and even my parents, I think we're starting to maybe wonder if there was something else happening. And then she, I was terrified, she would come early, and no one would like the doctors didn't believe me. And then she did, she was pregnant. And that sort of set me off a bit afterwards, especially with the nice sleep and everything. I was like, Well, if I think there's something wrong with her, and they say she's fine, if she really, you know. So that really freaked me out. And then that sort of started up, like the OCD got really bad, then constantly checking and stuff. And yeah, it sort of never really went away. I sort of got, I lived with it really, for a long time, just these things that I would do to try and make things easier, I guess, and the constant worry. And I would try and go to doctors about it. And they'd say, Oh, and always try and say, Oh, you're not depressed. And I definitely wasn't depressed because I love my life. And I was so hopeful and excited. But I just had this feeling that there was something horrible about to happen, and I didn't know when it was going to happen, but I was sure it was going to happen. So they'd say, Oh, we'll put you in a group with postnatal depression. I was like, but I'm not depressed. And it's only been in the last few years I've seen that they've just discovered that. As well as postnatal depression there is postnatal anxiety and postnatal OCD. I don't really the postnatal OCD the symptoms that I've read a different to what I experience with my OCD. But definitely the postnatal anxiety, I would say I definitely at least got. So then all that with the anxiety about having another Prem led to us having a five year gap between our gills. And I thought, I'm going to do it properly this time. You know, I went and got hit the tires, then all this other stuff. And yeah, I was I was okay for a bit, but I just went back to how I was. And you just learned to live with it. Like you sort of think it's just always under the surface. And it's always there. And you're doing all these things. And she's so tired and exhausted. And it wasn't until really at the start of this year. I don't know if I had like a breakdown of sorts, or whatever. But normally I have these anxious times where I find it hard to stop worrying about something. And it might last a little while but it goes away. But this was just full on for Halloween for six weeks or more like I was I was hardly wanting to leave the house. I would in school drop off and pick up and did the groceries. And that was enough to stress me out like I was not good. So then I thought I think I need more help. Like I've tried three psychologists. Yeah. And then when I spoke to my doctor, he was like, well, medication response. OCD is the one thing that actually responds amazingly to medication. He said we can actually almost cure with medication and then you can come off it and it should it can go somewhat. Oh, okay. So it still took me three months. Or was it three months, maybe two months of having the script and thinking, Oh, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. You're like Ross and Prince. I'm fine. Yeah. But yeah, so then I finally did it. And I wish I had some a couple of friends who had been through a similar thing and they were like, it's okay, you can try Because I was terrified, because I overthink I thought something horrible was gonna happen when I took these tablets. But yeah, I actually I started taking them on after oversight effects where I was like, Oh, is this what it's like to be normal? Like, is this how people live their lives? Because even and I thought that always times I thought I was okay. I was managing it like, I wasn't, I was so yeah, my head was so busy. Yeah, but now I'm like, oh, okay, we'll go do this thing. Okay. There's no hang on, let me think of every single scenario versus like, Oh, okay. And I'm like, Oh, I feel like I feel like a better mom a better wife. And I'm more relaxed. Sorry, huh? You're free of that worry. That was consuming you and yeah, over your life. Yeah, I see. I got to I mean, a lot of the things that I have that I used to got rituals and things like oh, it's so much rituals, it was more like I was never someone like I have to do risk X amount of times or things have to be done in these are sometimes things do have to be done in order. But not everything like it was all stuff that when I sat down and talk to my husband better even he didn't know like it's all stuff that was so like no one else would know unless I told them and a lot of it was just obsessive thoughts like that you try and fix in your head and you're just so worn out you're constantly thinking like and it is tiring. So I do need to have some a doctor said that with some therapy while you medicated you can push past the OCD tendencies without it being a stressful and then once you get past them you can come off for meds you mentioned with ICD do you find then that constructing like in crocheting is is that good for that to keep you focused at district distracts me it's crochet has so many different stitches and so many things you can do. But when I make a toy, I use only one type of stitch. But there's increases in decreases in shaping that goes into it. So it's the same stitch over and over and over again, with color changes or patterns in it. And I just find that so calming, like is this repetitive, it doesn't change, that's just stays the same. You know how it's gonna go? It's certainly, I think, probably reassuring. And it gives you that space where you know, everything's gonna go, probably the way you want it to go to, you're in control of how it goes. It's almost a therapy. I suppose I'll put that in the comments. But yeah, it's sort of a healing thing that you can do for yourself. Really is Yeah, yeah. And then it makes me feel good to make something to you. So it's and we. When my eldest was about, or 18 months or two years old, I changed doctors because I just I was I didn't feel like I was being listened to. And I started seeing a doctor that I'd seen once while I was pregnant with her I had this day where my heart had just felt like it was going so fast out of my chest like it was like it was so fast and having to see a doctor that was on duty and he was so helpful like he actually sat and listened to me and I didn't make me feel like I was imagining things or anything so I thought I wonder if I can get an appointment with him. I've been seeing that doctor ever since and he's absolutely brilliant. Just yeah. Listens doesn't rush me. And yeah, he's the one that's been patient with me and got me all the right help. So there are good doctors and I found one that listens. Oh, good now Yeah, yeah, but yeah, back then. Yeah, it was it was just like are you like especially with my daughter being promos? I always read think like I got to a point where I was thinking about it so much. I just because when you're having your first baby, I'm gonna read all the books and stuff. I could not read any books. I was like, that was what my anxiety was. It was like, Oh my gosh, this is you know, scary. What if that happens sort of thing. So I just stopped reading Doing anything I just Yeah. And then I saw enough, I did see enough missing something not right. Everyone's like, no, no. It's a good pregnancy like she's fine. I'm like why don't I feel fine? Like it's just yeah How do you feel about this, this concept of putting in a quitsies mum guilt that sort of society's throws around at us. Do you have any thoughts about that? That topic? It's funny, like, I listened to your podcast who Julie Denton and she explained it so beautifully. And I thought, Ah, I should think like I am. I'm just the walking mom guilt is just. I've always or I've had, I've always been an anxious person, even as a kid, very anxious, kid. I mean, I overthink everything. So I'm always thinking, Ah, did I do enough with them today? Did? Did they feel love today? Did you know it's just so like, my husband will say you're overthinking it again. It's you know, you did a good job. It's fine. You know, I'm always thinking that I'm falling short somewhere. But that's probably because of me. I think more than anything, but yeah, I'm always thinking that I must be doing something. Not quite right. I'm getting better. But yeah. It sounds like your husband has good support, then to remind you that you are doing a great job. Yeah. Yeah, he is. He's, he's like, he's the solid stable line and I'm just the over thinker and the emotional person. Talking about identity, that's something I also really like to go into with my guests about is it important for you to feel like you're not just someone's mountain, you're still died, you're still the creator, you still you still who you are, even though you happen to have children. To me being a mum is the best thing I have ever done. It is just the biggest blessing. And I'm always always in the back of my head, that there are only this little months like they're growing so fast. And it may not be everyone's cup of tea or how they want to do things, but I have just loved being there and doing that. I think. Yeah, I mean, I'd have 100 kids if I could. I'm normally not 100 Actually that yeah, maybe not. Maybe three or four but no I love being a mom. But I guess I have liked just only just this last little bit having my page and having that little bit of space where I make my toys and I guess no one on there asked me to you know, make them tea or clean up their mess. mom helped me by my nose and what Oh, no. I have like that. And little things like my pages. One page is going to be in a like an online Christmas magazine. And I went and got photos taken for it and my makeup done. And I have not done that. I got married 15 years ago and that was the last time I had proper photos taken and my makeup done. Like it was like, Who is this person? But yeah, I'm interested to see where it goes. It's like it's kind of it's fun having something that I've made and that I'm doing. Being a stay at home mom is something I have always wanted to be often people just assume like, Oh, just a stay at home mom, like you know, I've got no drive or you know, you sitting at home eating biscuits and watching telly or which Oh, like as someone who has had like I said, I've got my first job at 13 and I always worked full time up until the pointy end of my pregnancy with my eldest. I physically couldn't. But you know, I've always worked and but I can tell you that being at home is just I have ever worked it It is unrelenting. Yes. And it's it's an equal house like, it's not like I'm expected to put on lipstick and look nice for my husband and, you know, have a hot meal and a foot rub waiting for him when he gets home. That's not happening. I would say that I'm a feminist, and all that sort of thing. And you get the impression from some people that they think that you can't be a feminist, you know, you're at home, you're like a housewife type thing. But when it's your choice, and it's what you want to do something that I've always wanted to do. And I had always assumed that when I had kids, this is what I wanted to do. And my husband was happy for me to do what I was happy to do, he would have supported me either way, and we've been lucky that we've been able to do so. So I mean, I realized that some people, it's not an option, not ungrateful, but for me, it is an option and to have that choice to have not have it forced on you. Or I think that's the type of feminism to like, it doesn't affect my girls like neither them like, Oh, this is all we can achieve in our lives sort of thing. Neither of them are overly maternal kids. Like in a you have some little girls who just love their babies and their dollars. Neither one are like that. They just they will always told like, you know, the world is your oyster, you can do what you want doesn't matter. Yeah, I've instilled that in them. It's so important to make to instill that just because you're a girl doesn't mean anything. You are strong, you are fierce. If you want to do something, you can do it like yeah, sometimes I think Did I sort of take on my, a bit more of my personality, because I'm home all the time, like my husband's very sports orientated and really into fitness and stuff like that. And they both love getting outside and playing stuff with him and all that, but they're both super creative as well. My eldest is I don't know where she gets it from, but she's got this insane musical talent. Neither of us are musical but she has talent. My youngest can draw like amazing roaring and yeah, I just I'll do their own thing. They're not just because I'm at home. They're not made their own people. And I think to like always been creative since I was little. For me, creativity has always been based around making like was always around doing that my bedroom and making this homely place and I am a homebody and I think for me, I just love being able to provide this home you know, this cozy bit they can come to mom's here. It's just I realize not for everyone but I love that I can do that. When I found out I was pregnant with my youngest, I was making like a full size blanket for my eldest so I did that through pregnancy. I don't handle being pregnant very well. So it was very slow. I was not it was I was not well and then I started making my youngest a blanket for when she was born. It did slow down a lot being pregnant and then afterwards where he just saw exhausted and fading all the time so it did slow down a bit of time probably picked up a bit again maybe when she was around one will be before she turned one when they can sort of sit next to you maybe your your hands are a bit more free to things rather than maybe all the time. Is it important to you that each of your, your designs that you make, that they're different that you're not making the same color? are, you know, if someone orders something, you make sure you don't do it in the same color as you've done something else? Yeah, very important. Yeah, I want every light because that's the, when I think of handmade and all the time and effort that goes into it, you're going to spend more than you would if you were buying something from a shopping town. So I want to make sure that when you get that, that it is special and unique. And you're the only person with that, that's just yours. I have had a few people say, Oh, can you make me this dislike this and I'm like, I can make you that animal. But we've got to change the colors. Next year, I'll have two kids at school. So that's where I'm sort of hoping to see where this goes, I guess, obviously, there will still be days when they need mum. And I'm not going to be able to do anything like every mum has been trying to fight this anxiety and OCD for so long. And I did just start some medication about three months ago, which has helped me immensely just to be able to do things. And yeah, like there's been times where, like, before, I wouldn't have gotten I got photos done, I wouldn't have not when I first made my page, I was never going to show my face on it. I was never going to do anything like it always just going to be these faceless pages with my creations. But I sort of made some friends on there, like local people, and they're like, who are you? Who is this person? I'm like, Oh, hi. Yeah, so sort of, it's been nice to sort of Yeah, meet some people through here and see what I can make. I guess I just want to see, I have plans to or now I mean, thinking about it, I have plans to make lots of my own patterns and steal patterns as well. So that that's another way that people don't have to wait for me to make something people that can already make can do that one day I'd love to write a pattern book. Just have my own book made it make it like a storybook you know, with these creatures in the story. And I've always wanted to add a book. That's another thing I want to look into. And yeah, I guess I'm just seeing where it goes Yeah. When I go places, so if I've got a doctor's appointment or a dentist appointment, yes. Something that the kids, you know, just go into the shops, whatever. And I go kid us. The first question I always get to ask is, where are the kids? But my husband, he doesn't ever get asked, Where are the kids? You know? Is it just because, and what oh, sorry, I didn't realize I needed an audience for a pap smear. And even if I bump into someone down the street, like I might have just nicked in after school, drop, pick up a job offer something to grab something from the shops. It's like, oh, you keep lists today. I'm like, school, sometimes I feel like saying, I'm at home alone, but it's fine. I've put TV on and the pantries open so they'll be right. With my anxiety and stuff, like things like that really used to really upset me, I'd be like, Oh, I must think I'm a terrible mom, you know, like, stuff like that. And now I'm just like, No, you know, they have another parent, they have a dad who's more than capable. Or you know, he's at work. My mother in law comes and helps out like, it's yeah, I'm not gonna leave my kids at home alone. And that's important, too. I think people who make those off the cuff comments that make them mean nothing to them, but they don't think about the impact that they have on other people. You know, like that, like you said that that sort of comments would have really heightened your anxiety and, you know, made you question yourself, but some persons just flippantly made a remark and yeah, I think it's important for people to realize that you don't know what other people are going through I have started like because I'm not someone who, like I said, I'm a homebody and I do actually genuinely love being around my family, even When the kids are driving me crazy, I simply want to be away from for too long. So I started doing things like, it was really hard at first, but sometimes just saying, No, like my mom do this, do this, do this. I actually say, oh, no, I'm going to finish making this Christmas ball. Now, at first I like, oh, but in our, you know, mom can do other things, too. She's not just the thing we go to when we're bored. And I started. I love bass, if I'm stressed or frustrated, just put me in water or near the beach, and I'm all good. So I've been sitting in the bar, like, I'll get tea on early, I get the gills or really my husband cleans up the kitchen. And then I go and sit in the bathroom bar. So until it gets cold. I just say now what actually makes me it's just a little bit of something that I do. And I would never have done that before. Because I would have felt guilty that I wasn't being available and being all these things. I'm like, No, actually, I need to go and just sit in the bath too much and into a prune and yeah, doing things like that. So small steps but yeah. You're always lived in at Gambia. I have. Yeah. So I was born or I lived out of town, I went to OB flat primary school, which doesn't even exist anymore. And then my, where we lived way out at cave to whichever one goes where I know where there was like always, there's always this tiny little group of houses. So I live there. That's what I grew up. And the is probably closer to Grant High. But the school bus for Allendale came to serve and I thought my daughter was trying to get in the room. The school bus came to the end of our street. So I went to Allendale. And that's actually where I met my husband. So we weren't together until we've been friends for about five years and he'd been overseas and then we got together but yeah, that's where I'm at human. Yeah. So always local but sort of out of town until I became an adult really can you tell us about what you've got coming up? I know I saw on your Instagram page. You're working on some Christmas decorations. I'm trying to get through them at the moment. So I've got the Christmas decorations. I want to make 12 I don't know why I had to throw in my head. Maybe I had the 12 days of Christmas or whatever. Suddenly my head but I'd hoped to make 12 If I can. I have a lot of orders to get through. It was one of them. It's going to be another one that I'm going to be designing myself which I'm really excited about. I've got the magazine Christmas thing coming up, too. Yeah, just orders like the other weekend. I had so many people message me for orders. I'm like, I'm booked out till next year. Like it's just it's just like, oh, wow, okay. I need to buy a diary. Because I've just got this notepad in my phone this is like Okay, I think we need to do something a bit more proper here but yeah thanks so much Jane. It's been lovely chatting with you and all the best with your Christmas range and, and getting your book going. I'd be really excited to hear about that in the future. Thank you

Monika Crowley Irish print maker, oils artist and visual artist S2 Ep27 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Monika Crowley, a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin, Ireland, and a mother of 2. Monika spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home & the changing expectations of modern motherhood. Monika uses mundane objects in a symbolic, transformative manner whereby they become totems & talismans of the past. Monika strives to capture the essence of a mothers guilt, the feeling of being torn in two and the resentment from the other self. A decade on, her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves Mother/Artist. Her work walks a line between anger & love, between despair & joy, her explorations of the everyday are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also have a little chat about the Irish horse racing industry, of which Monika's father and her family were a significant part of. **This episode contains discussions around Cancer, grief and loss of a parent** View Monika's work Space Invaders , - https://www.instagram.com/p/CPlzt6pnaCX/ Motherload - https://www.instagram.com/p/CUki0cdsH9-/ Compart Mental Isation - https://monikacrowley.com/blog/ Monika's website - https://monikacrowley.com/ instagram - https://www.instagram.com/monikacrowley/ Watch a murmuration - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4f1r80RY Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in today. My guest on today's episode is Monica Crowley. Monica is a printmaker, oil painter and visual artist from Dublin in Ireland and a mother of two. Monica has spent 20 years in commercial advertising and design, to which she credits her bold graphic style. Her practice explores the trauma of change and identity crisis, domesticity, the traditional structure of the home and the changing expectations of modern motherhood. monarchy uses mundane objects in a symbolic transformative manner, whereby they become totems and talismans of the past. Earlier Prince had their starting point in motherhood as a rite of passage. They served as a memoir comm warning about nostalgia for retro culture at a time when mothers were not expected to juggle jobs and families. Monica strives to capture the essence of a mother's guilt, the feeling of being torn into and the resentment from the other self. A decade on her work still documents the internal struggle between the selves, mother and artist. Her work walks a line between anger and love, between despair and joy. Her explorations of the every day, are often raw and unadulterated, showing a grimness through the repetition of daily chores, but at times, finding a quiet beauty in the mundane. We also chat a little today about Monica's connection to the Irish racing industry. This episode contains discussion around grief and loss. Welcome along today, Monica. It's a pleasure to have you all the way from Ireland. Thank you very much for coming on. Thanks, Alison. And thanks for doing it at my local time when the kids were in schools. I wouldn't, I wouldn't have people constantly opening the door behind me. I can understand that. Now. It's pretty good here. It's almost eight o'clock at night. So it's a pretty good time for me to so the kids will be off to bed and I won't have to worry about doors at my end too. So we're about in Ireland, are you? I'm in Dublin. So it's gray and cold out my window. We had a bit of snow last week, but it seems to be hopefully brightening up this week a little bit. Oh, I'm jealous because we don't get so where I am. It just doesn't. It's not cold enough. And I've spent well I shouldn't say I'm jealous today because I've spent the day swimming and a little bit sunburn you might be able to see. But I never had the story. Like it's something I've never, never done been in the snow so well. Unfortunately, Irish snow is generally wet and sleety every now and again. We get you know decent snow but it's not. It's not a country for skiing snowmen every now and again. Yeah. Oh, that's fun. Share with us. What sort of art that you make. So I suppose up to recently have been predominantly a printmaker. I used to work in advertising and design. So I think printmaking was a really natural step for me because they kind of understood, you know, color mixing and separations and plates and that kind of technical aspect of the process. So and also because I was back then, I was renting. I didn't have studio space. So being part of a print, making studio I'm a member of the Black church print studio. And it was a good way to have a place where I could go and work and keep all my stuff and keep my art practice going. While I was still working as well, so, yeah, yeah, in the last couple of years, I've, my practice has kind of changed a bit, I suppose, because of lockdown printmaking, and go into my print studio was a lot harder the studio was closed up. So I did a lot more drawing at home and painting. So I'm, I'm actually doing a lot more oil painting at the moment. Yeah, that's cool. What do you prefer to do? Do you like your, your printmaking better? Or? I don't know, are you sometimes feel like there's this hierarchy in the art world stuff. I'm like, you sometimes hit a wall and you go, you know, am I getting that response, because I'm a printmaker, and the value of printing is perceived as lower. So I, you know, I sometimes come up against it. And I find it quite frustrating that the value of a print even though it's like quite a hard technical process to do, somebody described at one says, like, totally over complicating the process of creating art is so as I think, I suppose, as well, being able to join lock downs, and all I've been able to keep my practice going and being able to draw and paint at home, made me realize, you know, sometimes, actually, that remove of going to a print studio. While it's nice, it's nice to be able to get up in the morning and sneak an hour before the kids get up in, you know, in my home studio. So, and I guess then if, if you have an idea anytime you can sort of act on it, rather than have to keep it till you can physically get to the Fluffies. Yeah, exactly. And I suppose you keep your notebooks going, although I do find myself, you know, sneaking upstairs and saying, I just have to go do something and running upstairs and getting stuck into something. Because now I can. And, you know, I, I tell the kids, I'll be back in 10 minutes, you know, do your homework, and I come back 45 minutes later, an hour later. They're watching TV and the homework isn't done. And I'm like, oh, god, okay. It's very hard to, to thread that balance. I think one of the things people have talked about on your podcast before, and it probably comes up a lot is that struggle between when you're in the mother role, you constantly you never switch off being an artist to your head, you constantly frustrated that wanting to get back to your canvas. But, you know, when you're working at your canvas, if you can hear your children in the vicinity, your mother had never switches off either. So there's just this constant struggle for space in my brain, I feel. Yeah. So you said you had the notebooks is that something a tool that you use to sort of to help, obviously, to make notes, but to bring yourself into this space and say, right, I'm gonna make a note, then I can, you know, relax my brain, because now I've got that written down. I can move on sort of thing. Yeah, absolutely. Because you're constantly getting distracted and interrupted, and then when I go to sit down or get my students like, Oh, my God, what, what was that? Like, I had this flash of genius. Now, I can't remember it. So, and if I don't have my notebook to hand, like, I will use my phone to document it, or I will use notes a lot on my phone as well. You know, I take photographs and and notate it and then I can come back to it. At least I've recorded it, but I do. I do think keep a notebook. So is it a good practice? So kind of, then you can make sense as you. You see things develop and you go oh, yeah, actually that came from way Back, when I actually have a note of that, it will could take months to act on something that they've actually written down. So that would be fascinating actually, at the end of a project, and then you've got this record, and you can browse back through and go, Oh, yeah, like you said, you can see where it started. Or you might even see something and go, Oh, I sort of, you know, I might have bypassed that, but now I'm interested in that, or, you know, it's, it'd be awesome to have that that record. I worked in advertising and design for about 20 years, when I, when I was a kid, I just always wanted to go to art college, I had, which I got to go to art college, but I had to persuade my parents that, you know, I would get a job at the end of this. So I studied, I actually went to art college studying Industrial Design, which is product design. Yeah. And, you know, until my mother Oh, I mean, practically engineering. She, if she did that, then I kind of segwayed and took a very, you know, a long route through art college. And I actually finally graduated in Visual Communications, which meant I went into graphic design and then into advertising from there. So, so that, but at the same time I was working, and it was creative. And it was a really good grounding. Like, I don't regret the course, or the, the journey my practice has taken because it's really good grounding in notebooks and research and because you always have sketchbooks on the go, and you're always sketching out ideas, and, you know, and having to articulate ideas and concepts. So that's, and I even, like, even when you're designing, I always felt there had to be thinking behind it and concept behind us. So and that's how my art practices as well. I find it very hard to do a picture that doesn't have some kind of personal or autobiographical meaning for me, I don't just sit down and do something that looks nice. It's just, it's a weird layer to put on myself. i Some people are just able to enjoy the process of painting. And but, uh, sometimes I feel like, you know, I think about it, I overthink things maybe, I don't know, is it sort of like a way of processing experiences or remembering things or making sure you remember things is anything like? Yeah, I think actually, my art is really therapy. For me, it's how I work through my own emotions. Like, initially, I know my, my print practice, it started, I was actually doing a lot of prints of places I traveled and using photographs I took and I think when I became pregnant with my first child, it just this huge wash of terror and emotions. And you know, this, the weight of expectation of, you know, actually, I often say is, in my like, artist statement, like, my work is all about identity crisis. And you know, and I think that was the point when my art practice changed to become this personal thing, where I needed art to work through my own emotions to try and make sense of them. And sometimes I'll do like a body of work and then step back from it and go, Okay, now I understand what that was about. And this is an I can totally see. When I finished, where it all came from, and kind of understand myself that little bit Battery tech Yeah? I wanted to ask you flooding leading to a beautifully there's there was a piece that I saw on your Instagram account that you called Space Invaders. And I won't try and describe it, I'll let you describe it. Can you just share the background for that and what the inspiration was for that for that pain? Yes. So that was a print actually, I have, I think I have a sketch up on my wall, you can kind of see up there behind me. So that actually was a project that stemmed from the initial lockdown, and I was doing a lot of work at home. And I eventually took over the children's playroom, which is where I am now. And it became my home studio. So all the shelves around me, which is now full of my stuff was was initially full of the kids toys, and it's where they came and played. So I set up a desk here and I started working here. But you know, the kids, there was this constant kind of battleground, I saw my desk as this battleground, like I would leave to go down and make dinner or whatever, and then come back and I would find some of the children's toys like propped up like, obviously, on my desk, either abandoned, or like deliberately put there as almost like, some kind of protest that you undertake, they claim back on their face. Yeah, exactly. It became this disputed territory where, you know, it's like, that's our room. No, it's my room now. So if it was this, so the print behind me there, it's, I think I call that one cutting ties. And it was I came back and my son's toy Hulk fist was balancing on top of my scissors on my desk. And I was like, on it, there's just something so aggressive, but yet so playful about it, you know, and that was you know, and I have another one that I call mother's bottle and it was my child my daughter's doll naked, because they don't know what the clothes from my children's dolls just they never seem to have them on. And, and had knocked over my water bottle and spilled water across my desk. And I just, you know that it kind of brought up so many different kinds of images and emotions like that doll very much represents my daughter, and even just the water bottle in a way kind of represents me and it's that whole being torn into of having these two cells that are constantly vying for your attention. Your art it's that struggle I mentioned earlier, where half your brain is thinking about ideas and half your brain is thinking about what's for dinner. Let's see at the exact same moment. Yeah, it never stops so going back to your early days when you say like you had to convince your mom to to let you do your study. Were you always a very creative child growing up? Yeah, I think so. Well, it's I always loved painting and always loved art and always wanted to be an artist. My family, I live in Dublin now but I grew up down in Kilkenny. And my mom always had this thing my family my dad was a racehorse trainer. And we I have five sisters. So the six girls, we all worked with horses. is all the time. But my mum was always like we're always having broken arms and broken legs and ending up in hospital. And she used to say to us, I don't care what you do when you grow up, you'll have your own jobs and your own lives. I don't want you to work in horse racing, or art of this of the six girls for have ended up in horse racing. And two, I'm an artist and my other sister has an art gallery. So I think I think she could just see the way things were going, like, really early on, and she tried to redirect us. But I think once your brain is set on something, you know, you're going to end up there. If you're driven enough, no matter how much you're kind of diverted, you're going to weave back around to what you really want. So yeah, that's it. There's there's no stopping that. That inner passion. I don't think it's just an even if you try to try and stop it. It's yeah, it still tries to creep out does that. Yeah. Do you? You mentioned your children a little bit too. Can you tell us how many children you have a little bit about your family? Yeah, I have two children, a 10 year old daughter. She's the eldest and a seven year old son. And yeah, they're, they're great. They're the at a really good age, I think. And I, I always, when I was younger, I didn't ever know. I couldn't ever imagine me with babies. Because I was the youngest of my family, I'd never even held a baby. When I was about 16. I went to France and worked as an au pair, where I looked after a baby, it was my first time ever even holding a child. Even I wasn't one of those people in school who went you know, as the younger groups came into school that I would go and oh, the new kids are in Yeah, I actually really didn't care about anybody younger than myself. I always wanted to hang out with people older than me. So I think that's why when I was pregnant with my first child, it was kind of traumatic of like, I don't think I can do this. I could see myself with older children, but never with babies. But obviously, like now, 10 years on, I realized that everybody's just learning as they go along. And you know, babies are quite forgiving. They love you. No matter how terrible you are as a mother. Thank goodness for that. Yeah, so do you, when you when you had your first child, your daughter, where you work while you're doing your art, like a lot at the time, and did have to sort of stop? Or did you manage to keep going? How did it sort of work? Weirdly, I think it amped up a bit at the time, because I mentioned earlier. I, my art had been about traveling and things like that. And then suddenly this fear of you know, motherhood and what was expected of me. And, you know, I worked full time and all my spare time was given to my art. And now I was going to be a mother and working. So working motherhood on art. I was like, how do the three things fit into each other. But like I said, I needed the therapy, almost of doing the art. So my first solo show is is was called domestic. And it was about when my mom found out I was pregnant. She sent me her recipe for brown bread. Actually, she ran me and said, I'll give you my recipe for gram bread now and I was like, oh my god is that who will I will become this person who makes bread. And I just couldn't get my head around it. Because I'm a terrible Baker and I still am. So I just said no, I can't even deal with you've given me this recipe over the phone. So she wrote it down and sent it to me in a letter. So I had this letter. And that was the starting point for doing this whole series. called domestic, which was about the fear of becoming a mother. But it was centered around, I always use kind of ordinary objects to kind of trigger emotion. And you know, this kind of sense of recognition yourself like, like, oh, so I use the recipe for brown bread. And I did make the brown bread once. really badly. No, it was edible. We'll just leave it at that. But isn't that interesting? That's like, your mom sort of had it was almost like this initiation. It's like, okay, now you're allowed to know these these things you weren't allowed to know before. This Fascinating, isn't it? Yeah. Well, it's not that I wasn't allowed to know them. It's like, she just thought I would have no interest in nowhere, which I did. I didn't have any interest in making brown bread. And then when I was told, Oh, now you'll probably want to make brown bread. I was like, oh, so me as a person, I'm going to change completely. Yeah. Okay. I had never even thought that. But actually, I didn't, I never became this person who made brown bread. So I can sort of like, if you're already feeling a little bit anxious about everything. And then to get that and to have that, that moment of going, Oh, hang on a sec, I'm going to these all these changes are going to happen. Like that would have been quite startling, like, not very reassuring. Yeah, like the whole pregnancy and your body changing and all that that's a very physical and normal and well kind of documented kind of process that you can google and go, Okay, that's totally normal. What I wasn't prepared for I think, was just the avalanche of advice, and all these conflicting things that people are telling you and telling you about the person you will become. And I was like, I don't want to change I still want to be me, you so can I not be me, an artist and a mother and still do my job. But, of course, some things do change, but some things don't. I think it's so it's so important to to keep your pre pre pray mother self, it's like, it's so important. And yeah. It's even, you know, my daughter, she keeps pointing out to me that I'm a decade now. So like, I, I can now look at the whole, the whole thing is still very fresh to me a decade later, I still very clearly remember. But the trauma of that change that was happening. And I still, I'm still struggling with my identity, like 10 years later, of how much of me is me? And how much do I give over? And even that guilt of like, am I holding myself? Too much of myself back? When I'm with my kids, I throw myself into it. And you know, I love them. And I love them, Tibet and have great fun with them. Like we have great crack, that really at a lovely age at the moment where, you know, they're interested in things and their brains are just fascinating, like, like my daughter is cleverer than I am. When we were locked down there for the last 10 days with COVID. She learned how to do a Rubik's Cube, something I have never been able to do. And I found myself last night like googling it and doing a step by step guide and I swore I wanted to throw the thing in the bin and I was like, How does she do this? She's 10 Like she has worked a site and I can't. COVID the pandemic started or whatever. I actually took a step back from work. And the work was always an important part of my identity as well. I was a creative director and an advertising agency when all this hat and I just did took a step back and needed to be with the children. And it was just this, like a one stop, it was kind of taken away, I realized how much of myself I was giving to work, actually. And when it was just divided between my art and my children, I actually saw that that's where a lot of the struggle was happening. But also, I realized how much of myself I'd been given away to work. And because I suppose also your job is creative. It sucks a lot of the creative energy out of us so, but I still, I feel like now I have a much better life balance where it's, you know, probably I was gonna say 50% Children 50% Or it's but it's probably 70% Children 30% ours if I was to be totally honest. With the guilt then, do you ever feel like the pool between, like, do you ever consciously have that thought I shouldn't be doing this art now. Because the kids are meant to be doing their homework and I need to check on it. Like, does it feel like that? That Oh, all the time, all the time. It never stops. If when I'm doing one thing, I feel like I should be doing the other. If and then, you know, then I have like a my different kind of selves start to resent each other. You know, I feel like there's a constant struggle in my head, I have to say, where if I'm in the zone painting. And I'm just thinking, Oh, I just I just need half an hour. And I hear myself saying that the children are knocking at the door. Because they're hungry, or, you know, I want to do this or can you open that for me or you know, and I'm like, Just give me 30 more minutes, I swear, I'll be done in 30 minutes. And you know, and then when I'm i if i But if I don't get that time to do my art, I find myself just being this horrible, angry person that I don't like, you know that. You know, even though my seven year old will come and hug me he really knows how to defuse my pent up frustration, he'll come and hug me and go, Oh, Mommy, Mommy, I love you. Please don't be angry mommy, which he sees as a whole other person. And it's angry mommy who comes out when I when I just feel like I haven't been able to get into my studio and do anything. I feel. Actually, I'm just a much nicer person. When I have my art practice running smoothly as well. Like some days you really feel like you're winning and oh my god, I'm totally killing this. I'm like doing everything. You know that like, yeah, I am the woman who has it all. Oh my god, this is incredible. And, unfortunately, it's where those days are rare. But for for the most part, I can resolve the fact of you know, okay, today, I didn't spend as much time in my studio or, you know, things just didn't work out when I was there. But, you know, tomorrow will be a better day, I've become a lot better. I think actually motherhood teaches you the US you know, as babies, you're always told, you know, tomorrow will be better, you know, and not pits reset on everything. So I bring that to my own life. You know, I'm just gonna sleep on this and reset and in the morning everything will be better. So yeah, that's so true. Yeah, I remember having those feelings of when like in the middle of the night I'd just be thinking that's okay. The sun will come up in the morning and we'll just start again and just see how this makes one goes and yeah, that's a really good way of looking at you know, yeah, I don't like and you and your expectations I suppose around what what you want Want to get done and what you life allows you to get done, I suppose. Yeah. And even like just looking at children and IVIG can go to bed being these like really angry and you know, you're having a big row about something. And the next morning, they've totally forgotten about it and you're like, okay, okay, I suppose I better just forget about that too. And move on. Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's so true Yep. Wanted to ask you about, there's a series that you did the compact compart mental causation. So it's spilling over the three lines. All right, this was like, personally, my my pop that passed away. Just recently, he was 1994. And when I saw the things like, I just like the birds and I don't know, it's, it was like I was meant to see it because he had pigeons. And so all these all the birds that you had, sorry, I'm talking about this, people won't know what I'm talking about. So I'll put a link up. And then the window. It was just I got really like smacked in the heart by that it was just incredibly moving. Thank you again. And like, like I said earlier, a lot of my work becomes, it comes out of me working through emotions. And just at the beginning of the pandemic, my dad passed away. Again, he was 92. It was just before his birthday is 92nd birthday, actually. And he'd been sick for a while. So my six six girls and my mom, we were down there with him when he died. And there were a couple of days where we were kind of waiting for the inevitable to happen. It was really kind of torturous, long drawn out kind of fairly traumatic, actually the whole thing. And we sat in his room and the these murmurations just started in the evening, which we didn't really have grown up when I was a kid murmuration of starlings. And it became a kind of a thing that we did, we'd go out and watch the birds and then come back in. And it's funny, like you mentioned that your your dad kept pigeons. My dad actually had this like, like, because we had racehorses, he had this thing that the birds were like eating the horses feed and shipping and the horses he used to have this ongoing battle with keeping the birds away so it was just weird that all these birds like that this became a thing and Mike my childhood growing up I won't go into the graphic stories of what happens on farms when people are trying what they kind of considered to be pest control. But my dad was not very nice to birds, I think. And we lived out in the country and it was just he just wanted them away. So it just became this weird kind of thing as I watched him die to see the birds flying around. They just seem to all most come back and I don't know I don't know if it was something that I don't even think it was his Spirit coming back as birds I don't know Was there some kind of karma in but but even even just to kind of watch the birds from his room. So it became very represent representative of him and the idea of compartmentalization was I like obviously I loved my Dad, and we all idolized him for that you could in depth, we kind of put away all the things that were bad about the person, like he wasn't a saint, and he was a tough man to grow up with me. I think he made us all quite tough. But, you know, nobody talked about any of the bad stuff at the funeral. It was all very, wasn't he great? And I think that's a very Irish thing to do. Or maybe it was, it's just something we deal with. In grief, you have to put things in boxes and kind of put them away and go, do you know what, right now I'm just not going to deal with that, I'm just going to deal with this little piece of how I'm feeling. So that's, that was how that I did a window done in the black church print studio, a little display where I actually printed a murmuration on a downstairs bathroom window from my house where my dad used to watch the birds and decide to go out and kill some of them like, to be perfectly honest. And so I actually brought a new thing into my practice as well, where it was like printing on find objects and kind of moving off paper and editions and stuff like that as well. Yeah. So it'd be just like experimenting with with things. Yeah, with materials. And just, I suppose I never really felt the need to. I think that the part of me that isn't a printmaker is I don't need to do, you know, 10 perfectly executed prints in that they are absolutely identical. For me, it's the process of printing and the process of bringing to life an idea that kind of exercises, the feelings and the emotions. And that's my therapy. And once it's done, it's done. And I find it really hard to revisit, I could never reprint anything I've printed before. Once it's done, it's gone. And yeah, that emotion has left me almost Yeah. I had cancer a couple of years ago, and some of my work was was about that. Just, I suppose in terms of me using my art as a kind of a therapy to work through stuff. So that actually was, again, a huge part of recovery. From in fact that I did a show at the time called treatment, which was obviously just coming out of treatment, and it was even kind of linked to this whole desire for things that comfort you like and looking at my children and I think at the time I was constantly like, giving them treats as well. And so the again, the words often the kind of Lincoln spark things in my head and and, you know, whereas at the time when I was sick, I couldn't really stomach sweet things, but I was craving them but like I'm feeding them to my children as a way of comforting them or compensation that mommy couldn't be there because she was in hospital or whatever. So so that was just, yeah, I think I'm tired of treatment about two years and I finished in early 2018. So gosh, four years. Good for you. Do your children. That's sort of a two part question. So your children are aware of your artmaking and your tuition? And if that's the case, is it important for you that they see that they see what you're doing and what you're putting out to the world? Yeah, I certainly don't keep them away from us. Like, on occasion, I've bought them to my print studios well, and I suppose I don't sit down and explain my work to them. But they're definitely they know that they're in the work. And sometimes I kind of talked to them about it. Like the piece I mentioned earlier motherlode where I felt I came across as quite dark and negative towards parenting. It was important to me that my children knew that, like, I love them. Absolutely, wholeheartedly. And that it was about the the accumulation and the drudgery of the little small tasks that that just get on top of you that it's not the mothering part, it's the all the little things that build and build and build. That, you know, so it's important that they know how much I love them. And that if my work deals with the network and negative aspects of motherhood, that, that it's not about them. It's about the role. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. It's not direct reflection on them personally. Yeah, absolutely. And do you sort of feel like, it's good for them to say that, like that identity, again, that, that mums can be more than, say, just a mom, because whenever just mom, but in your children's eyes, is it? Do you feel like it's good for them to see you, you know, leaving the home and doing your thing? And, you know, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, I would hate if, like, when I'm talking about my art, I refer to it as work as well, since I left advertising and leaving the house to like, earn a wage. I suppose I did kind of feel like my art isn't necessarily earning a wage. But I refer to it as my work, because I would hate my children to differentiate between the fact that my husband works. And that his work has more value and more importance, because he gets paid for it. So there's always this balance of my art definitely does come second, as work in the house, because, you know, it can get pushed and deadlines are a little bit more flexible, and we need to pay the bills. But it's important for me that they understand that my work is important to absolutely, he put that beautifully. That was very well put. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that I refer to my music now I say, I'm going to do some music work. Because it's like, I it's so important to me. And it's not just um, fluffing around and having a bit of fun. Like, I do love it. And it's fun, but it's like, I want to get something done. I'm trying to achieve something. So to me, it's like it is work. It's labor, you know? So yeah, I've started constantly calling that. I don't know, when the kids have noticed. Yeah, but I think it just it does, it reinforces something, a degree of worth on what we're doing. And that it's not like he said, just me playing and having a nice time. Like it actually it is work it is hard to it would be very easy just to sit down and do nothing when you know, the kids are in bed or distracted with something else. So it would be easy not to do work. But the fact that you compel you're compelled to go in and work out your music and I'm compelled to go work out my art. You know, it's and I think a work a work ethic is also important. So you know, I want the guys to know that I when they go to school, I get up every day and I'm like in my studio working until I become mom and have to go pick them up and do the after school activities and stuff. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, absolutely. Literally Yep. I can't let you go without asking you about your connection to your racing family, which I did Google actually. It's pretty impressive that your sister married Aiden O'Brien. And this is Joseph O'Brien, who's where to milk and converse. I do have my nephew Joseph Joseph O'Brien. He is called Joseph after my dad's. And he trains on the hill at home in Kilkenny where my dad trained his horses. So basically, my when my sister and Marie my eldest sister got married, she married Aiden, who worked for another trainer Jim Bolger. When they got married, he moved over to us in Kilkenny, and they, my dad kind of said, Okay, you can train on, you know, my gallops and gave them kind of half of the so they built their own stables and they we all trained together. So my dad was still training at the time, and he's super competitive. So he, you know, obviously Aiden is pretty competitive as well. So, actually, my dad had handed my license his license to my sister, who then gave it transferred to Aiden when she got pregnant, which was a she was pregnant, like, very young, she thinks she was 23. So, you know, I think then, my dad just couldn't, like, cope with the fact that, you know, Aiden was in a training on the hill, even though Aiden was like, he wasn't well known back then he kind of made his name then training with my dad, and well in competition to my dad. So, like, the dinner table was always, you know, quite funny. And, you know, then my next sister married a national hunt jockey, travel Oregon. Then my next sister had an art gallery and then my next sister married paths Mullen, yep. And she was well known racehorse trainer as well. And Pat was champion, flat jockey here like, God, I don't know, 10 times in a row. And then my twin sister is married to a jockeys agent and racing pundit on a racing channel here. So that's so my, my husband's like our family gatherings like people just talk core. So I like that horse racing is always on. Probably on about three different TVs in the house. You know, when when we get together like that, people just talk horses. Yeah, I can imagine it'd be bad. Like if you didn't enjoy the trophy, just to sit there and take it. Yeah. I mean, I worked with the horses myself, like up until I was about 18 or 19. I had a jockeys license I wrote as an apprentice. Oh, yeah. But I think a lot of it was just trying to prove that I could do it. I really did not have the interest or passion for horses, like I know, I loved horses. It's not something I yeah, for the industry. I didn't want to spend my life in horse racing. Yeah. Is it really scary writing, like, riding them that fast? I'm sorry, that just came in and no, yeah, it's, do you know what it's actually it's not the speed you're going us. For me? It was the sense of control I. They're, like, it's this muscle of machine that you have to be in control of, and I just never felt in control of the horse completely. And, again, it was it's kind of a battle of wills as to whether the horse is allowing you to control it and you know, I always felt like if they weren't allowing me to, so I used To get run away with all the time I was kind of small and light, so and the amount of times like the horse would just take off at me and I like that is the scary part of it of not being in control. So I it's funny I yeah, I ended up in hospital several times with head injuries and broken legs and actually one of the pieces we discussed earlier one of my art pieces, that's the water bottle knocked over with the dead baby doll. The words bottle actually is a racing term. It's like a jockeys bottle is your bravery. So I would often like have like said to my sisters, no, I've totally lost my bottle. I can't do this anymore. A year. So in a weird way, like bottle is courage and bravery. And and that was the kind of a phrase that was in my head when I was doing that art piece. And it probably comes from my racing background Yeah. Can I ask you what you've got coming up? If you're working on anything in particular? I mean, with the COVID restrictions, I don't know if that means you can't do shows or anything. But if you got anything you want to mention. Yeah, well, I was part of a group show last year that I organized with seven other artists and I did a piece called motherlode for that, which was it was again, one off piece, it was four canvases that where I repeated these three objects over and over and over again to show this kind of build of I suppose the build of the daily burden of motherhood and parenthood. Yeah, that kind of falls to us. And when I stood back and looked at it, I had the pieces quite gray and blue and dark. And it felt like, you know, that was definitely something that was coming out of the pandemic and didn't really feel like me. So I actually have made a conscious decision where I want to do something that redresses that balance of that last piece that I feel, you know, came out of me, but maybe miss represents where I am now, you know, I've been working on a body of work called the kitchen sink, which, again, sounds depressing, and was coming from waking up every morning and making coffee and looking into my sink and going, Oh, my God, you know, there was always like some kind of dirty dishes in there that never either made it into the washing machine or were put in after the washing machine was put on. And it was like building this resentment and frustration in me. And I thought, I need to redress my thinking here and start thinking, and I started seeing the kitchen sink as an art project. So I would look in the sink and see what was in there. And it would become a memory and nice memory of the meal we'd had the evening before. So I started sketching what was in the thing, or taking photographs and sketching it later. And then working out. You know, just while I was doing that, thinking about the meal we had and the conversations we had. And suddenly it became this beautiful thing where again, I use objects to kind of symbolically word these objects in a sink became this symbolic diary entry of my life almost so can't wait. Well, it's something I've been working on for the last few months. And now I'm also just about to I was supposed to move into a new studio, which I have temporarily with Randall Arts at a local arts organization that I work with. So I'm going to take the back room here. It's an it's an initiative I want to bring to other businesses that rooms that are lying empty for businesses that they could do short term art artists residencies in there. So I'm doing a kind of a pilot scheme, I'm going to be moving into the back room of this building today, and start painting from there for a month or two months or six weeks and see how it goes. So that's kind of excited. Yeah, I'm a little bit terrified of moving to somewhere a bit more public as well, you kind of have that fear of exposing yourself of like, because not every piece works actually. Okay. And you're like going, Oh, no, that's crap, I just have to put that facing the wall. So nobody ever sees that again. Or, you know, like I am used to being in my print studio, where other people are there, and you're meeting other people. So but I, I know, was part of this, moving down to this temporary art studio. At the end of this residency, I plan to do kind of an open day in the studio and invite people in and talk about my work. Because I mean, there has to be, I wanted to be of benefit to the arts organization, as well. So there has to be kind of a quid pro quo. So so I'm interested to see how how it will affect my work. And, you know, will I even be able to work there? I'm kind of slightly terrified. It's a new adventure, I have to say, well, there you go. It'll be an interesting challenge. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, it's important to keep moving forward and do stuff that terrifies you. I try to I try to not shy away from things that scare me. So I always say to my, I always say to my daughter, you know, being brave is being scared, but doing it anyway. That's so true, isn't it because you're allowed to feel scared, but then you have to do it. Anyway. That's actually a quote that one of the girls I interviewed early in season one said said the same thing. He said, You can be scared you can be terrified out of out of your mind. But you have to do it anyway. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been lovely, was great. And it's, it's fascinating. I'm really interested in the fact that, like, sometimes we don't, I think in the art world as well, like, there's this concept of, you know, I don't want to be a mommy artists kind of talking about motherhood. And I made a conscious decision not to shy away from us, because I just, I like, it's who I am. Some people do their work, and it's escapism from, you know, the drudgery and the mundane and the every day, but I I kind of my work is my life in a way. So I just, it's a record of it or so. So I feel like it's, maybe I talk about it too much. But I think I think we don't talk about it enough. Honestly, I just think I think you're right, people have this stigma that you can't have the two coexisting. It's like, if you want to be serious, you got to just put all that to one side and just, you know, pretend it's Yeah, but it's innate. It's a part of you. And it's, you can't help but have it influence what you do, whether you realize it or not, but I think but yeah, it's maths even. Yeah, like, I remember even in work in advertising, you know, some people would, it would almost be taboo to say that you had to leave work to pick up your children, like people almost pretended they weren't parents. That's scary, isn't it? And I just feel like this is like a huge part of who I am. And I can't deny it or pretend it doesn't exist and why would I want to? So I kind of make no apologies for my art dealing with motherhood and it's nice to see that there. I see different organizations around the world. I'm a member of a group in Edinburgh called Spilt Milk. And we're again, it's a support network for artists who are mothers. And not all the work deals directly with motherhood, but it's just, it's interesting. It really makes me feel part of a community. I don't have that direct support in Dublin or in Ireland. But I find the support internationally, more readily available. So that means that's fantastic. So I was delighted to when you reached out to get in touch about it. Oh, that's great. I appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Are you itching for a good story? laughter among friends maybe even a mystery or two? Well, you're in luck. Five Raven kings is a standalone Dungeons and Dragons podcast. Each episode is a separate three hour long story like a movie for your ears. So you can listen to these adventures in any order you like. So join us on a real play d&d quest as we solve mysteries attempt, comedic banter and enjoy friendship. Fiber Ethan kittens podcast, fantasy, action, mystery, friendship

Alex Sinickas Australian engineer + designer S2 Ep76 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Alex Sinickas, an engineer and designer from Bright, Victoria, and a mum of 1. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, re-creating the achievements of her childhood heroes Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond. She spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up, This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to Uni Alex studied engineering and also economics, She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects, she wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve their visions. 4 years ago Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite a shocking and painful experience, needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refused the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3D printouts of silicone cushions, which lead to Alex collaborating with a roboticist and a prototype coach, and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produced prototypes and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out, until they found the perfect fit. Thus began MilkDrop Pumps , a soft silicone pad that stretches over most brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in April 2021 and in the US in late 2022. Alex - MilkDrop Pumps Podcast - instagram / website What is STEM? ***This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, post natal depression and an IUGR pregnancy.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. This Week on the podcast. My guest is Alex cynic s. Alex is an engineer and a designer from bright in Victoria, and she's a mom of one. Alex grew up playing outdoors with her older brother, recreating the achievements of her childhood heroes, including Indiana Jones, MacGyver and James Bond, she spent a lot of time digging up things and blowing things up. This sparked her curiosity of how to build things and how things worked. When it came time to go to uni, Alex studied engineering and also economics. She got into design a bit later, whilst working in structural engineering with architects. She wanted to be able to help people to be able to achieve four years ago, Alex was breastfeeding her daughter and found herself on the end of a breast pump and found it to be quite shocking and painful experience needing to pump extensively for her daughter who refuse the breast. This got Alex thinking about how she could make this experience more comfortable, not just for herself. But for other mothers. She ordered some silicone and a robotics kit and set about creating 3d printouts of silicone cushions, which led Alex to collaborate with roboticists and a prototype coach and her husband's insight as a GP also proved useful. They produce prototypes, and each time Alex had to pump she would try them out until they found the perfect feet. Thus began milkdrop pumps, a soft silicone pad that stretches over many brands of existing pumps. They launched in Australia in 2021, and in the US in late 2022. This episode contains discussions around pregnancy loss, postnatal depression, and an IUGR pregnancy. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. And while you're there, please take a minute to subscribe to my new weekly email, which I'm sending out at the beginning of each week. I'm a little bit conscious that we don't actually own all the content that we post on social media. And in light of Mr. Elon Musk's recent takeover of Twitter and the changes he's made. I'm even more aware than ever that things could disappear in the blink of an eye. So I'd love to be able to keep in touch with you before that disappears. So jump on and subscribe to my weekly newsletter. The music you'll hear today, as usual is from my ambient music trio called LM Joe. We are based in Australia and it's myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoy today's chat. Welcome, Alex. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, so you're based in your in Australia. Whereabouts are you in Australia? Yeah, I live in Brighton, which is about three and a half hours northwest of Melbourne. Yeah, I know. Right? Yeah. A lot of people when you say that, they say, Oh, I um, I went on family holidays there when I was a kid or something like that. Yeah, that's probably doesn't change that much. It's probably a little bit more popular now. And it's, you know, in winter, it's all about skiing. And in summer, it's all about mountain biking and road riding. And I remember the because I'm one of those people that not from family holidays. And the autumns are beautiful, which is stunning. Yeah, well, I'm I'm married to a Canadian and he reckons that it's the closest he can get to to Canada in Australia. So I feel like that's a nice, it's a nice compromise. We get to live here but you're Similar to Canada. Yeah, it's beautiful. It really is. And yeah, about three hours from Melbourne. Yeah, yeah. I have some great memories of that part of the world. Yes. Totally Beautiful. Very lucky. Oh, that's awesome. So you're an engineer and a designer. Can you share with us how you got into that field? I think I was just following my brother, actually, I might have a brother who's two years older than me. And through school. And growing up, he, he sort of involved me in all of his activities, really. So it was kind of just trotting around following him. And so our sort of childhood heroes were, you know, Indiana Jones and MacGyver, James Bond for that kind of stuff. So we spent a lot of time outside, digging up things and blowing things up, which is probably okay, these days. And so I just sort of learned about how to build things and curiosity about how things work from him, and probably my parents. And then I was always fairly good at maths. And so when it came time to go to, I knew I always wanted to go to uni, but not I didn't really know what I wanted to study, I thought, oh, maybe you know, medicine that's like what you do if that's what you're good at maths, which is a really strange concept, but that's kind of where it was at the time. But it just didn't really kind of make sense. And so I, yeah, I ended up doing engineering. And I did dumb economics as well, as my dad had said, like, oh, you know, I never really understood how money works and how businesses work. And I wish I'd known that. And maybe you might like that, too. So I was pretty, like, aimless. Although I was academically fairly, you know, good. But I really had no like idea about what I wanted to do. So that's how I ended up in engineering. And then, in terms of design, I got into that a bit later, one of the things you learned you do when you're engineering is you work in really big teams full of lots of different people. And I was working in structural engineering. And you end up working with architects quite a lot. And I loved what they did. Yeah, right. Grandfather was an architect. And I'd always loved design. And I'm probably not very good at it. But I know what looks good. I like being able to help people achieve that. And so I was always drawn to architecture and just, like, beautiful design, good design. Yeah. Right. So what sort of things had you been doing? Like you said, structural? Engineering, is that, like building bridges? And yeah, anything above the ground. So there's like a thing, you know, with engineering, there's lots of different kinds. My choice was, you know, electrical, chemical, environmental, and civil and so like, electrical seem too hard, I didn't really understand electricity, can't see it, you know, chemical like, I wasn't really that into chemistry, again, too hard to understand, can't see it civil, well, that's everything you can see. It's everything on the ground. So roads, rail, you know, it's water management, and then structural, which is things you can see above the ground. So buildings, bridges, anything like that. And so that kind of made the most sense to me, because I could see it, and I could understand how I, you know, I could make that. And so that's kind of where I ended up. And, yeah, luckily, I ended up working with this brilliant consulting firm called Eric, which is a, which was started by a guy who was an architect, also a philosopher, and an engineer. And he had this idea that if you worked closer with, you know, the designers at the very start, and with the people who were building it, you could create these really beautiful pieces of art. And so he started I think, in the 1960s. In the UK, he was Danish, and created this firm of engineers who were really oriented towards the dream of the architect, like, what did they want to create? And how could we bring the real world to that in a way that didn't like shut down their ideas, but was like, okay, yeah, you want to put, you know, some crazy structure up here that can't be built? Well, maybe it can be built, if we, you know, changed it like this. So use the physics in that way. And so, so he was, you know, he created this firm out of that and so I was lucky enough to fall into working for them, and that's where I learned about, you know, not necessarily being the artist yourself, but, you know, making art come alive. And I think architecture is one of those disciplines where, like, they can create some crazy stuff like, in the real world that exists, you know, and it's amazing to see what what, you know, what people can come up with. And I especially liked the kind of teamwork aspect of it, you know, you kind of needed a whole lot of things to come together to create these, you know, beautiful pieces. So, I didn't work very long in that, you know, as a structural engineer only a couple of years, but I worked in that firm for quite a while. Yeah, recently doing more research and development with them. Yeah. So up until that point, before this guy came up with this idea was this, was that a really sort of radical idea that people would work together in that way? Was it more like sheep would have an idea, and architects would just do their thing? And people wouldn't say, yeah. I mean, I don't know, there's probably historians, or people who were alive and working in that time, that would know better, it was always sort of shared with us, as part of the Kool Aid, you know, like about how it was not, you know, together. But I guess if you go back to like, you know, the idea of the Renaissance man, like art and science were very, very close, right. And I think as, possibly as you know, as society grows, and as disciplines grow you, you know, to be able to be an expert in your area, you have to get more and more narrow in your focus. And so it's very hard to be on top of everything anymore. Because it'll mean that you actually can't do that project, like you can't make it happen. So you get so individual people have to get more and more specialized. And so I wonder if like, you know, art fell off the way there. I think also, like, the economics of things changed. So the, the people with the power in the built environment now, which is what they call, you know, cities and things that get built. It's not necessarily the architect, I think it used to be that, you know, you might commission an architect to do a design, and then they might bring in like a bad engineer and some contractors to build it. And but the architect was like in control of the project, I'm not sure it's totally like that anymore. It's sort of shifted a little bit to the person who owns the property being the, you know, the person who's really making the big decisions. And so I'm not sure that we get quite as daring architecture anymore. Like, you know, would we have the Sydney Opera House? If it was 2022? Probably not. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think like that, that's probably changed. But yeah, I'm not sure what it was like, before, but in my view, it's always good to have more people earlier on working together, because often, often, you can actually make the thing happen that everybody wants, if you're there at the start. It's just Messier. It takes longer. And it's got a higher chance of failure. So it's easier to like go with what you know. Yeah, that's what you're trying to do. Yeah, that's interesting. And you've raised a point there that I'll bring you back to later won't dive into that just yet. But I've written that down for later. But I want to talk about what you're doing right now. So you have used your extensive experience in your engineering and your designing background to create a business called milkdrop. Can you tell us about that, please? Sure. So, yeah, so I was working for this company. And I went on maternity leave for my daughter, who's now three, nearly four. And I found myself on the end of a breast pump to feed her, which I found to be quite a shocking experience, I think, you know, we had trouble feeding directly at the breast. And so I was pumping on a breast pump, like six to eight times a day, just trying to express milk for her. And I ended up with really damaged nipples. And I found it really painful. And it just like, after a while, you know, I dealt with it for a bit, but after a while, it started to really annoy me that this product had been made that it wasn't clear how to use it, and it was hurting me, but I still kind of had to. And I started to think about how I could make that different. And so I had seen these experiments that people had Um, it's soft robotics are like, robotic. Yeah, like robotic creations that were made of soft silicone. So it's like hands that could pick things up. And it's like, why are breast pumps made out of robotic hands? I mean, the reason is that it's really creepy. And people just wouldn't accept that idea is super creepy. You know, like, everyone's always like, why don't you just make it well, like a baby? And like, would you put a fake baby on your breast to express milk? Like, it needs to be a little removed? Since but, so what I did was, I ordered a kit of silicone and a robotics kit. And I started trying to build something that would feel better than a breast pump, but still work. I mean, within about one hour, I ran into my own limitations of like, how to use these things, because I have no idea about robotics. So I called a friend Daniel, who is a roboticist. And he introduced me to a friend of his who worked at Swinburne University as a prototyping coach. So basically, students in any of the design subjects who have their final projects and want to create, you know, a piece of furniture or a piece of metal or whatever, he's there in the lab, helping them make it so he knows how to make stuff. And both of these guys are lovely. And so we sort of started working together on creating prototypes of breast pumps, that would feel better. I'm also married to a GP. So we had all of this like, insight into how the breast actually works, from sort of a medical perspective. And so the four of us sort of sat around and just started pumping out prototypes. And then every time I had to press pump, I would use Yep, try it out. And then we go back, 3d printed another model, pour some silicone, try it again. And so we did that, like 20 times. That was like the creative bid. And then after that, it's all just been full on, you know, manufacturing, fundraising, websites, kind of thing. But yeah, so that's where I got to. So yeah, the products called what we ended up doing was actually just creating a soft silicone pad that stretches over most breast pumps, we didn't even redesign the breast pump. Because we figured this would, you know, help more people, they've already got a breast pump. And then you just, you know, get this cushion and attach it over the top. So that's what we've been doing. And we launched that in Australia last year, and just launched in the US last month. So that's pretty exciting, helping a lot of women with pain and discomfort. And then we're still also working on other products in the background as well, because it's all good on Yeah, that is such an awesome story. Because it's like you've literally solved a problem, not just for yourself, but for everyone. Like that is so awesome that you can do that. You've got the skin. Yeah, you can. Yeah. I love. Well, I mean, it's not it's not always so straightforward. Like, the first product that we did. You know, it worked for about 75% of people, which firm in the medical world is insane, right. But about a quarter of people were finding they were collecting less milk because the cushion was kind of dulling the sensation of the pump. And so then we were like, Okay, what can we do about that? So we created a cushion that was thinner, or had less material on it, you know, sent that out to the people it wasn't working for dudes were like, yes, great, you know, and then we're like, doesn't fit everybody's nipple size, because everybody's different. So then we added more sizes. So you're like, just constantly trying to find something that works for everyone. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, yeah, you just like created this thing. And then it works for everyone is amazing. It's never quite like back lossy. Yeah, there's a lot to improve. And we, you know, we think we're sitting now at like about 90%. So we can help nine out of 10 women, and one out of 10 Unfortunately, we you know, we're still working on it. But you know, we can't help but what what we do instead is have free trial for 30 days. So you try it if it doesn't work, send it back, we'll refund you, you know, so we're not trying to add stress, but his you know, that's kind of our way of, you know, making sure that we're actually helping women rather than rather than sort of making it worse. So yes, yeah. Interesting process Yeah. When did you sort of first start this process? What year was Yeah, yeah, it took about six months to do the design, and then about 18 months to do the manufacturer. And really the holdup was not our design skill or manufacturing capability, it was money to be honest and time. So, you know, you've got jobs. Everybody's got jobs. And I feel like it's like, it was it. Who was it that said, like, you need A Room of One's Own? Is it Virginia Woolf, if I got the wrong English author, anyway, someone was like, you know, women will never be able to write until they have an income and space. And, you know, Shakespeare's sister wouldn't have become Shakespeare just by virtue of being female, right? Because women, you know, you, you don't have the luxury of being able to fail and have constant monies anyway, we all have jobs. And we had to sort of do it in our own time. So if we were employed by milkdrop, now, with funding, we probably would have only taken us sort of four weeks to do a design, and then it might have been like, nine months for manufacture. Yeah. So so we sort of had this process of like, you know, in our spare time making up these prototypes, testing them, redesigning them, you know, maybe we did like once, once a week, or once, once every two weeks or something, you know, then we'd go and try and patent that, and then take that around, apply for grants to get funding, and take that around to investors, or accelerators try and prove that there's a market without having a product to sell, you know, convincing people that this was worth investing in. And then, you know, finally, we managed to, you know, accumulate enough funding and investment to then manufacture it. So it wasn't that it took that long it was that it took that long to get them the money to pay for it. You know, the tooling just for these just for reference, it's like 40,000 bucks to make it all. Yeah, right. Like, if you're an existing company, that's fine. But if you're starting from scratch, that's a lot of money. You know, that's not, you know, you know, doesn't come pass by easily. And so yeah, so that's kind of what it took. So it was sort of two years from the idea to being in market. And then you know, it's really been a year and a half for us to even get enough traction to, for people to know about us, like the marketing is almost harder than the design. Yeah, it was like that was the I don't say that was the easy because, yeah, well, it's like, and then all this other stuff that has to happen afterwards. Yeah. Back when? And if this is appropriate question to ask. So you can you can say no, if you want, but because you've got money from other people, or then are you accountable back to them to show what you've made? And everything? And how does that feel really, like? nerve wracking? Sort of? Like, I don't know if that's the word. But yeah, I feel pressure from that. Yeah. You can make it feel like it's full of pressure. You know, like, It's always, it's always a challenge to report back. But, you know, we, we have really good investors, we, you know, we have mostly private investors, and then also the Victorian Government. And I think it's a challenge. Yeah, like, we read, like a monthly report back, right. And every time like, something doesn't quite go, right, you always find yourself wanting to put a spin on it and catching yourself being like, no, just tell it how it is. Because next month, you know, you're not going to be able to say this, I think actually, I've, I've been able to take a lot of the lessons from working in big teams on big engineering projects from that, that one of the good things about, you know, working in construction, or on big projects is that if it's a good culture, there's no blame, you just say what the situation is, you know, nobody's made a mistake on purpose, or like, you know, your prototype hasn't failed on purpose, you're not being lazy, you're not misusing money, you're trying your best to get something over the line, it's really hard to do if it was easy to be done. So you just have to kind of make sure you don't fall into that trap of like treating your investors. Like it's the media, you know, that it has to be a spin on a story or whatever. So yeah, I'm pretty blunt with where things are at. We share as much information as we can, as we have. And the usually the way it works is the investors are far less worried about the things I'm worried about than I am, you know, usually the, you know, usually they're saying things like, no, no, you got this just keep going, like, you know, tell us about your thinking about this. And then they want to talk you through it. It's not like a reprimand relationship or a bad boss. It's like a group of people who want you to succeed. You got to tell them what's going on if you if you want their help. It's kind of Yeah, it's almost that nurturing sort of environment where if you've got a problem and no, because I guess they've had many years experience in business or it'll the diary is they'd be like, well, actually, this isn't a big deal like you know, Oh, it is easy. Yeah. Have you looked at this? Like, how come you haven't looked at this? Like, oh, I didn't even know that was the thing, you know? So I think like, it's just, it depends how you frame it. And it could I think, if I was a little younger, and you know, hadn't learned all of those other lessons, it would be an easy trap to fall into, but I think, yeah, with a little bit of experience, like, oh, no, this is an asset. This is awesome. Just gonna, you know, be grateful that these people want to be involved in this project. And, you know, ask them for as much help as I can get and communicate as often as I can. So I think, yeah, we've we've been really lucky. I'm sure it's not like that with everyone. And I think also by the fact that this product is about women's health, which is, you know, notoriously under served and chronic pain for women is overlooked in or you attract, you attract a certain kind of investor, right? You know, they're already, they're already thinking differently. And they already probably really care about this. So it's a bit of a filter, as well, like, it can be frustrating, because like, oh, how come I'm not getting more investment? How can I seem like the same person as me, also called Alex, but a dude, you know, raising twice the amount and half the time kind of thing. And you can get annoyed at that. But then when you look at who you've got the quality's so good, that you think well, you know, yeah, so yeah, no complaints. Yeah. Good question. I know I sorry. That's okay. I didn't I didn't pre warn you with that. Well, I just thought of it as we're talking about, I thought, I wonder what's that? Like? Yeah, sounds like can be stressful. There's always there's always things that are going well, and things that aren't going well. And yeah, you've just got to like bite the bullet and talk about things not going well. Because if you were in that position, you'd want to know and help us. You'd want to be able to help to like having kids, right, because they don't tell you what's going on. How can you help them? Yeah, that's a whole new conversation. Oh, man. So speaking of children, you mentioned that you started this out with you when you had your daughter. So how old is your daughter now? She would be she's studying for next month or Yeah, right. Yep. And that's your only child. You've got one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we had. We have tried since but I just keep having miscarriages. Which sucks. I'm so sorry. Oh, that's okay. It happens to lots of people. So, yeah, it's just it's been a fairly big gap. Maybe we'll be able to have another one. Maybe not a I've got seven years between mine Never say never. Yeah, exactly. So just sort of taking it easy with that, I think, you know, the last few years of the pandemic and also trying to grow business and life's busy my husband just is just about to sit his final exam for for, you know, final final, the last one after, you know, 15 years of study. So that's all been pretty full on like, we're just yeah, just kind of trying to take it easy. What's your sort of your days look, like you said before about how you all had jobs? And that what is your main thing now? Yeah, so about a year ago, I moved to almost be more than that. Actually. I moved into full time on milkdrop. And, but most people working with us are part time. We have a fully remote team and I call hyper or extreme flexibility with hours. So we have some people, you know, brilliant people doing marketing and content for us. And, you know, two of the three of them are mothers. And, you know, my view is like you work whatever works for you. So if you need time off, you take out if you don't, whatever, if you want to work at midnight, that's fine. If you want to work at 7am that's also fun. No rules, and no requirements, as long as you're getting the work done. And as we all know my There's a total machines when it comes to getting work time because we don't have time for bullshit. Yeah, so like, you know, for the parents, that's what we do, and then we try to make sure that, um, for people who aren't parents that, you know, they are able to use that flexibility how they want as well. So it's not just sort of something that's provided to one group of people. Because they made a choice. It's everyone gets that. And it seems to be working quite well so far. But it's super early days. Yeah. So my days, I like to have a bit of structure, actually. So I'm Monday to Thursday, you know, nine to five. My daughter has daycare here, Monday to Thursday. And then on Fridays, I'll do I'll sort of do a few hours for sort of Friday over the weekend, like customer service stuff and other things that need to happen on the weekends. So I kind of break that up. But I try not to do anything too taxing. And yeah, the days like, I work best in the morning. So I do like the hard work in the morning. And then I moved to the kind of Bitsy tasks that you have as a business in the afternoon. We have our design meetings once a week, always. And that's with those same two boys that I was working with at the start. He Yeah, we basically try to either prototype, a design that we're working on during that week. So we've got something to report back. So we sort of operate on like a weekly cycle. But both of those guys are working in other jobs as well. But yeah, we that that seems to be working quite nicely and moving fairly quickly. Yeah, and then you know, it's a total mess whenever grad is sick, or were sick, or you No, okay, closers for some reason, or they issue random public holidays, you know, which is great for people with jobs, but not if you and your business. So I sort of feel like on average, we're getting about four days a week worth of work. So I've just tried to get really, really efficient. And some days that works better than others. Most of the time, I feel like a failure. And then every time, every now and again, something good happens. And like oh, maybe I'm not such a terrible business person after all. Yeah. But I did learn one of the great things I did learn from one of our investors and mentors is to print out good reviews that you get, or comments that people send you. And when you're having a crappy day, just kind of read through those. And yeah, that does make you feel better. Because it's kind of like, you know, the whole reason I started with because I was annoyed that women weren't being you know, that the, you know, this dis product shouldn't be hurting women, and we could do a better job. And so, you know, when you hear that back that you've changed, your product has meant that someone isn't having pain anymore, and they're able to feed their baby breast milk, which is what they really wanted to do. And you know, they were feeling awful, because they felt like they might have to give up and now they don't you know, that kind of stuff like, Oh, that's really cool. You know, it's nice to have that effect. Yeah. And never underestimate that. Because that I went through an experience with my breastfeeding journey, where at one point, I was producing so much milk that my baby couldn't latch, and then they suggested that I use a shield, which was great, because he could latch but then it decreased my amount of production because the baby wasn't touching my breast. So it was an I went through a lot of issues. And when things finally were good, you know, it changes your whole world. Like it literally changed everything, you know, so I can imagine. I mean, yeah, I was lucky. I never struggled with a lot of pain. But I had other issues. So yeah, it's, it's anything about like the context that you're operating in, right? Like you've got a woman here who got pregnant, stay pregnant, managed to have a baby. And then if things aren't going super well with feeding or any other part of their babies, like it is full on, especially in that first week or two after birth. Yeah. So no matter how you had the birth, no matter how the baby is going, something is going wrong, like nobody cruises through this period. And so this is the situation that you're in. And this is like, this is the point where we're kind of trying to help and so I think like, that always makes it pretty real. Sometimes, like you you kind of wish you were involved in something more fun. Like you know, when you go to do your marketing campaigns, you're like, Oh, I'm so sick of it being such a downer all the time and Be like, No, you just feel like that because you're four years past it. But back in that moment, yeah. Any help is good to help and numb. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Because yeah, like when you. I mean, I had a lot of experiences with postnatal depression and I'm sure you know, all these little things that were happening but all all combining to make this a massive oh yes that's it isn't it I remember with my my second baby because he was born, he wasn't early, he had IUGR. So in my when he was being made, my placenta sort of stopped working about 26 weeks, but no one brought that up. So he was completely formed all these organs and everything like his lungs were mature everything but he had no meat on his bones. Basically, he was in a bind. So he was four pound 14, and he come out. And it was like, you can see every breath he took, you could see his diaphragm second, like it was, it was like I couldn't I had these ideas that I you know, I exclusively breastfed my first baby. And I said, Yep, I'm going to do this with my second. But right from the very beginning, he had to be on formula because he just had to be fed straightaway through this, like the tube, the gavel into his stomach. So they had me pumping. That's all I was doing was pumping. And luckily, they had an electric pump at the hospital. The only other pump would ever use was a manual one. And that was Yeah. Oh my gosh. Just not fun at all. Yeah, and it was like, they just like just just do it. And I was like, But how, like, she was just like, we'll the TV and and show you this video. That must be like 50 years old. And I don't know. And every time I'm not, I'm not begging, you know, midwives at all. But just about every person had their own idea of how to attach and how to latch and how to hold and how to listen. Oh, man like to listen to? Exactly, yeah. Yeah. You know, I was in the public system. So every time you rang that bell, you didn't know which nurse, you're going to say, you know, it's the same in practice sounds like, you know, it was the same credit. Yeah, it was just like, my head, I want to go home. I just want to go home and just do it one way, just pick away and do it. But then it has the questioning, like well, is one way that I'm choosing the right way? And like, this is the biggest consequence decision in my life, because I've got this baby I'm responsible for now. Like, if I do it the wrong way. Will they get enough food? Like, it's just, it's just, yeah, I Your story is not unfamiliar. Like? Yeah, we've spoken with a lot of women now. And that that whole, like, conflicting information? Thing is, yeah, it's everywhere. Yeah. And not always ending up with the best outcome for the for the mom or the baby. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. They used to say to us, when we'd ask, what what do we do? What should we do with the baby? And they'd go every baby's different. And yeah, would drive us crazy. Good. We know that's true now, but at the time, when you've got no idea what you're doing, it's your first baby. And you just want someone to tell you what to do. Yeah, yeah. In the end, my husband said, If I hear every, every baby's different one more time, I'm bloody going like he was just like, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, find sites beautiful thing, but gee whiz? Well, you know, like, one of the reasons why we don't know that much is because we don't invest in the research to learn that much. So there's, there's, you know, good evidence base about skin to skin and good evidence base about a whole lot of things, but not, not everything. And so quite a bit of it is kind of left up to people's individual experience with what they've seen. Or just kind of intuition about stuff, and that's fine. But if if we researched the lactating breast, like we researched other body functions, you know, the same amount of money, we would know a lot more, there would be much more coherent programs, and you know, you wouldn't have be left feeling like that. So, you know, part of this is, is, you know, we have no problem saying All women should breastfeed and it's best for baby blah, blah, blah, but then, you know, where are the programs and funding to support having someone there in the hospital who's not run off her feet looking after all the other babies that just got born? You know, where's the funding to provide you homecare, like we do have these people who are super skilled and really good at what they do, but we didn't have funding for them, like, you know, so I think a lot of this is kind of see like problems around the places like, are these problems that can feasibly be solved, you know, in science are these like problems that can feasibly be solved with just a bit of cash? Yeah. And it's just you haven't chosen to put our cash in that area. It's a little cynical, but I think that's true. No, I agree with that. I disagree with that. Also something cynical, if it was a man's problem, like to put more money, we wouldn't even have to have to have babies, it will be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's another one. So what I want to ask, and I'm not asking you to give away your secrets or anything, but with the other you said you're working on some other things? Are they things that are born from that similar? Like experiencing something or seeing something that you've you've got this passion? Yeah. Yeah, it's all about breast pumps. At the moment. I'm like, we would love to do more products. Like one big area that I've been really interested in is incontinence. It's another one of these, like, everybody has it. You know, so, but, you know, what we're really good at what we've learned how to do is silicone products and, and things that have something to do with the human body. So yeah, so we're still working on breast pumps. And we're working on creating a, you know, these are just cushions at the moment, but we're working on a full breast pump. So that's what we're doing. But in terms of how that works, I'll probably keep that under wraps. It'll be a while before that. So yeah, that's what we've been working on. Which has been fun. Card. Yes. Fun slash card. Yeah. When you say about incontinence, it's really funny, all of a sudden, it's almost like it's cool to have the incontinent Sandy's and it's like, where were they 15? A woman who needed them. Right? Yeah. Another reason why we need more women in STEM, right, you know, that you have a habit of solving problems that you see if you don't see the problem, you know, and solve it. So I think, you know, the, this kind of world of these? Yeah, like, Where was that when I was, when I was pregnant or suffering from this, I think we'll see less and less of that as we go. Or, like, we'll start to see these problems solve more and more, as, you know, you start to see these professions that are in charge of designing things, start to have more women in them, or, you know, people who identify as women who are having those problems. So I think it's only gonna get better. But yeah, there's a lot once you start scratching the surface, you're like, oh, and that Oh, and that oh, you know, yeah. So on that, do you think that it's like, because I know, with the schools, they're always saying, you know, girls getting into STEM and all that sort of stuff? And at the other end of it having women who are the ones with the money, I guess, who are the investors? Is it sort of a bit of both? It's like, encouraging the girls to break through these glass ceilings, I suppose. Or the boys club or whatever. Yeah. But then at the other end, having having the women who sit who might say, Yes, I'm passionate about this, because it's a women's issue, and I want to support it. Yeah. It's like, my grandpa always used to say, like, follow the money. He was Lithuanian, adult, very thick accent and, you know, follow the money, where's the money coming from? And it kind of does make sense, like, you know, why aren't these problems solved? Because, like I said, before, you know, it could have taken us four, six weeks to make this thing and took us two years, because we had to convince people to give us the money now we were able to convince them. And that was awesome. Thank you. But there are plenty of people who aren't able to convince other people to fund to fund these sorts of things. And I think, yeah, well, you know, when you look at the proportion of startups that are led by women that are funded, it's a lot lower, like there's you can Google all of this, like it's pretty, it's pretty dire. And there's a lot of arguments why, like people say, Oh, well, there's not as many women asking and not as many women in technology. And so then you say, Yeah, but why, you know, I don't think there's anything innate about or girls and boys when they young about their problem solving abilities or their ability to design or do art or anything like that. I think it comes a bit later. Yeah. And so yeah, I think it's sort of, you know, what are we teaching them? What are we making look exciting and cool? Yeah. What? You know, you have a lot more often, people say they have more women enrolling in engineering disciplines, such as Humanitarian Engineering, and Environmental Engineering. And then we start putting all of these like stereotypes on women, like, they just want to work for their community, they want to work for environment, like, they don't want to do dirty stuff, you know, so that, that the, you know, they're a little like, flashes everywhere. I guess my point is that it's very complex. But it is, you know, multi multifactorial, which is like a fancy way of saying, we don't really know, and there's lots of things that happen. But you know, part of it is fun. Part of it is education. Part of it is society, part of it is, you know, when we're not putting enough effort into retain people, part of it is like the dropping out after having babies, because it's too hard to get back into work. Like, there's just so much stacked up. It's not really there to prevent this from happening. It's yeah, yeah, like, in a nice way, but we're living in that society, and the odds will be stacked against us, you know? Yeah. And I don't think anyone's doing it intentionally move to this new phase, where it's kind of just like, hung around. And those systems have been designed in a way that are like that, you know, no, one person in that system is like, I'm gonna push women down exam, but maybe they are, but they've never said it to me. And I haven't actually seen that. But what I have seen is, you know, maybe you go and pitch your idea. And they're like, oh, I'll just text my wife to find out how she found pumping you like, No, how about you go and investigate the market, and take a look at the opportunity. And think about this as a solution in the same way that you would investigate any other pitch or any other product, you know, maybe someone wants to auto turn petrol cars into electric cars, you wouldn't go and ask your mate who drives a car, whether or not that's a good idea, you would do your research at a, like, you know, market scale. So it's stuff like that, where, you know, it's not intended to, to be sexist, or whatever, but it kind of ends up like that way, because we have all of these biases. So I think, yeah, you know, it's hard to hard to combat but there are people who are trying to combat it, you know, there are plenty of groups where they're actively, you know, recruiting, not majority female investors, necessarily, but trying to find founders who have women, you know, running their companies or whatever, and presenting those to people who have the cash. You know, there's funds, government funds that are set up, to try to sort of make up that difference that women don't see in funding. So if they're, if they're receiving, you know, 50% of the funding or less of a man, you know, equivalent man, so like, a man is able to raise a million dollars, and the woman has to raise 500,000, or something like that, then the government's are stepping in to try to make up that gap. You know, there's plenty of people doing lots of good things. So it'll work. But, you know, sometimes it needs a bit of a kick up the bum to Yeah, but that is good that, you know, everyone's I feel like everyone's aware of, like you said, the systems that have are in place, and if we go to my hands, like, they're floating around us, it's not like someone standing there, you know, enforcing all this stuff. It's just the world we live in. It is and it doesn't make it better. And in some ways, it makes it harder, because you can't put your finger on it. Like, you know, I, I sort of, it's like, you know, back in the 60s, if you had a person who was working, you know, who happened to be a woman who's probably a secretary and, and someone hits her on the bum, like, clearly sexist harassment. Yeah, that never happens. It doesn't happen so much. These days, it's sort of all under the, you know, feels like it's more under the radar, it's not as easy to point to. Obviously, there's lots of cases where that's not the, you know, the case, and there's a spectrum and, you know, really serious stuff happening, you can see it all over the news. And not on the news. But but for the sort of like little tiny things that are happening during the day, like, you know, you can't call out all of it. But you do know, when you look at it empirically, the results are that women are getting funded, less women's problems are getting solved less. Women's pain is more overlooked. You know, all of this stuff on you know, when you look at it in the big picture is definitely happening. So, how do we go about addressing it? I'm not really sure. I'm sure there are much more experienced people who know more about what they're talking about. But you're part of what I don't see part of the solution that sounds like really And police, I think literally are you're in the trenches doing the work by creating these products. And by getting women involved in making these products funding these products. And I think that's fantastic. Because it has to start somewhere literally, like, it's what I always say, when I read things about how to make change, it's like, but where do you start? Like, really actually start, but I feel like what you're doing is, yeah, well, you start with what you can control, right? Like, you know, there are plenty of businesses that are aimed at trying to improve that postpartum experience or the fertility experience are plenty of them. You know, some of them are based on building up communities of women, you know, that's like what you're doing right? So that happens to be your skill, I'm not good at that. I'm not good at designing things. So this is the one thing I can change. So I think it's just, you just like, you know, you look at the all of the things that are in your sphere of concern, and you look at them the next ring down, which is your sphere of influence, you can't actually change it, but maybe you can influence it a bit. And then there's your sphere of control. So what can you do in that sphere of control that's going to have the biggest influence? And then maybe, over time, you can make that change? But I mean, it's hard. We've got, you know, cop 27, or whatever it is this happening while we're recording. You know, these people haven't been able to make change on like, such an obvious threat. So I think like, change is hard. Yeah, I think you've just got to kind of do what you can control. And hopefully don't go, you know, don't let it sort of derail you too much when it doesn't change as quickly as you'd like. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it Yeah. So when you work before you had your daughter, were you working? Like full time? Or? Yep. And then how did how did you sort of feel about that change of them, becoming a mom and having you focus almost solely on your daughter? Did you go through any sort of, I don't wanna say existential crises. But how was that experience for you? Um, I didn't find out too bad. My husband is really involved in daughter like, we definitely 5050 Maybe he's 6040 We will also at the time of the she was actually my second pregnancy, I had a first and it had ended in a stillbirth at like, 20 Something weeks. And so I was quite anxious throughout the pregnancy. And so that was my challenge. It was like, am I gonna get through this? And so we'd moved back in to mom and dad's house. And we were just all living as I know, it sounds very old school. But I'm European. I don't know, but we loved it. So we were living in my parents house had the baby, and everyone was there to help. So I didn't, it was a shock in that year. Now I've got this child and feeding wasn't going super well. But once we kind of got through that. actually really liked it. I didn't expect to I thought that I thought that I'd hate not working. But I was kind of working on milkdrop Like I had things to work on. And I've always have you know, as long as Yeah, and I wasn't 100% on the baby. So it was sort of quite balanced. I probably not remembering a whole lot of stuff. But yeah, I guess we had three adults before adults for one child. And and we had help and meals and time to walk outside and you know, if I needed a shower mum or dad would take Grettir if Andrew was working like it just wasn't sort of as stressful. So I think I had a lot more community. And also all of my friends had been through it too. And I'd been kind of dealt a blow beforehand. So I'd already had Add that like, oh, maybe you can't have everything you wanted. And it's not all that easy. So when I did have that, when I did have Greta, I was just thankful that, you know, I could have a baby. So, I think, yeah, it wasn't such a big deal for me. I didn't like how when, before that, when I'd said that I was getting married, how I suddenly like people were saying, like, oh, when are you going to stop working or like, you know, or when you got pregnant, the first time I was commenting about it, and feeling like I had to go into a different part of the business to keep my job because you know, engineering can be pretty full on and so like, all of that sort of stuff. I just, again, it's like the unsaid thing, but that was more about a phase in life. And, you know, I did work in a company that really wanted women to stick around, and they really supported me and I, you know, felt very loved and included and all the rest. So it wasn't sort of that much of an issue for me, maybe that's just, yeah, maybe it's, in hindsight, I did find that I wanted to get back to working within about four weeks, as in not working, but like working on something. So I didn't, I didn't like, I'm just, you know, I didn't settle in very well to just being with my baby. Like, I found myself like walking down to the cafe, getting her sleep. And then, you know, getting out my laptop and investigating something that's silicone, you know, but that's just what worked for me. And so yeah, I was lucky enough that I could do that. And, you know, for maternity leave and all these other privileges. So, yeah. But, like, something that I do talk to moms about on this show is having that outlet, because we can't, I mean, I'm sure there's somebody that can but it's not may be 24/7. Thinking about my children, like, I'd go insane. Yes. Yeah, I think that that's normal. Like, I mean, we also I think when you, you know, you have Yeah, like identity is an interesting one. Because, I mean, I had Greta at 35. So you know, you've got your life, like, I didn't change my name in marriage, because I've always been called by my last name, all the way through school and uni. So I kind of was my identity, I had already worked for a decade, like I'd, you know, felt like I'd sort of fought my way through a fairly male, I wouldn't say I don't say dominated because they weren't aggressive. But yeah, majority male environments like so I sort of felt like I had, like, gotten to this point. And then actually what, what I had trouble with was, then all of a sudden, you're sitting on the end of a pump, you're like, oh, no, wait, I'm just a mammal that's here to be milked for the benefit of my offspring. That felt like shit. Sorry, that felt terrible. No, you can say that. Yeah, I think, you know, that's why I sort of started to design that because I felt like, well, no, hang on. Women who have been through this shouldn't be feeling like this, I think I did a survey at the very start to see if anyone else had these issues. And for every 10 women, seven had nipple pain or discomfort using pumps, and eight felt like a cow. So like, I expected the physical thing. But I didn't expect everyone to feel that way emotionally about their product. And the other thing that I didn't like was that people are on pumps, because they're trying really hard to feed their baby breast milk, because that's what they want to do, if that's what they want to do. So, but then they're kind of like, given this experience where like, this thing's wheeled in at them, they're not really explained how to use it. It's sort of like a punishment, but these women should be held up, you know, like they should be, they should be held up on pedestals, these people are sitting on the end of a machine to milk their breasts to give breast milk, like they've trying really hard, really, really hard. Especially, you know, some of them pumping like 12 times a day, they're up in the middle the night turning this machine on, you know, I think so that kind of bothered me. And I think, um, yeah, I did struggle with that. And that's why I created these. But I kind of didn't necessarily see it as just motherhood or my particular reaction to it. I saw it more as, here's another case of where women's experience is overlooked. And, and I didn't want to also, you know, be too critical of these restaurant companies, because they're trying to design something that is affordable, that fits lots of people, the human race is super diverse, like, how do you get something that works for everybody's anatomy and physiology? Like it's not an easy thing to do? And people expect a lot you know, off their products for a certain price. Like I get how they've come into being and I'm glad that they exist, whatever, but I just felt like, you know, we could we could do a better job. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now that's so good. Like, I can definitely relate to this the cow feeling and that then feeling feeling like literally like an animal. Like, like you said, you're supposed to, like if you shouldn't be revered if you're feeding your child and then you go out of your way to get the milk out of your body to continue feeding your child you should you shouldn't be held up on a pedestal, you know. And just like I saw, I see it all the time on like, people I follow on Instagram, but all these particularly in America, they've got an something's going on over there. With the they don't have as much maternity leave or any maternity leave. Like it's not set up, like here in Australia. Yeah, it's tied to their employment. Yes. Yeah. And, and the fact if anyone actually wants to pump, it's like, what do you want to do? What are you talking about? Like, it's not actually something that, like employers give any credit to. And I know from myself as a, as a musician, like, I've had to pump a lot of times, like most like gigs, when you're away from the kids for, you know, more than at least three hours, you know, you're gonna have to, and being in toilets or out in the car, and it's like, you just feel like you're like shamed, shunned away from everybody? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. It's just it's pretty rough. I think. I mean, America is a fascinating place, right? Like, they, they have these conditions, but then they also have, you know, there's an entire company set up there, they're called Minerva. And they create pods for lactation. So you can pop them in stadia, or you can put them in the airport or at university campuses, or downtown or whatever. And there's another one company called Milk stock, which will collect your milk pumped milk, like say you're away for work for a couple of days. And you know, you need like, you need to pump if you're feeling you need to keep that milk supply up. So, though, pick up your milk and send it back to your baby, wherever they are, like so there's all these like, it's, it's not like, yeah, the US is a very diverse and fascinating place. But yeah, they have terrible maternity like terrible government parental leave schemes and like people that kind of on their own, but it doesn't mean they have these other services around and businesses that kind of help them sort of difficult to grasp sometimes coming from coming from Australia, we've definitely learned a lot starting to sell these cushions over there. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Something else I like to talk about is the topic of mum guilt. And I find this really fascinating one because some mums I've had on have actually had to google it to find out what it was. And I think that is brilliant. And I wish that was me. And what's your thoughts on mum guilt? What it is or how to deal with it? Like do you have you experienced it? Or did you have to Google it? Like, where are you at? Yeah, I mean, mom guilt depends how you define it. Like, do I think I'm being a good mother to my daughter? Yes. Have I felt guilty that I'm not around for her sometimes, but I'm not not around for her. Like she's, she's living her best life? For sure. Yeah. She has a lot of people looking after. So like I said, My husband is there a lot. You know, she's, she's got a lot of friends. And because we live in a small town, the community around her is quite strong. You know, she knows her friend's parents, that kind of thing. So I think, you know, she's having a good childhood, she's safe. She's learning lots. She's, you know, she's pretty lucky. So I don't feel guilty about my parenting. But I do have the mom guilt about work. So, you know, am I working fast enough? Am I working hard enough? am I delivering for these people who invested in us like do they realize that I am only working nine to five? You know, am I okay with that? Because there's this culture in that kind of startup world of, you know, working 100 hours a week, which you just can't do. You know, it also comes when And you know, my daughter is sick, and I can't work that day. So there's this like, constant feeling of never getting through the pile of stuff you got to get done. And I've had to learn ways to deal with that, and not get riled up by it so much. But yeah, I find that side of it really, really hard. But in terms of like, am I being a good enough mom compared with the moms I see on Instagram? Yeah, most of the stuff that I see on there is like material stuff. You know, like, are they dressed in the right clothes? Well, no, she's always filthy. But that's because she's been playing outside in the mud, which I think is a good thing. So I think I just, yeah, I don't really have that too much. I did feel guilty that I wasn't feeding her properly. But since she's gotten older, and, you know, we, I was sort of worried like, Oh, um, you know, breast milk is, you know, it says here that it's better for them, and you know, better for their development. And like, what if I'm stunting our growth or, or making a too big? Or like, what if, you know, she's not able to, you know, develop emotionally because she's been fed formula, all that stuff, like at four, there is nothing wrong with this kid. And it's, like, I think, I think I sort of, in the sort of emotion of that time, I think I took overall statistics, too seriously. And, you know, I'm sure there's cases where that's the truth, but you know, you're not looking at it holistically, like, you know, she's got, you know, she's lucky enough to have parents who love her and look after her and she's fine. So I think I'm, I'm much less concerned about that. And that that was like a fairly big lesson. And so, you know, when you go through all those milestones of kid hood, you know, toilet training, really, like we're going through breeding right now, like, I'm not too fussed about it, I just figure well, you know, she'll figure it out. When she's ready. We'll just keep teaching, she seems to like to learn. You know, the only time I get upset is when she's not nice to other kids. And I think I'm kind of a psychopath. But But like, you know, all of that is fixable as well. So I think like, it's not pretty age appropriate. Yeah, I just don't get too stressed about that. And I think she'll, you know, she'll be fine. She's, she's, she's not the one that, you know, we need to be improving things for. Hmm, no, that's really great answer. Yeah. And I'm wondering if I were going before when you talked about living with your parents and having perhaps that, that village that we don't sort of, say so much every day now. And you talk about coming from a European background? I wonder if that I'm not a psychologist, by the way, I'm just I have ideas and I say them out loud. I wonder if that's contributed, like that level of support has allowed you to relax and mother the way you want to mother and not feel any outside? You know, expectations from outside? Because you're really secure in the unit that you've got. Potter? Yeah, I think so. And I've never really been particularly like that concerned about peer, maybe peer pressure or like, perception of others. I think I the thing I do care about is if someone felt that I was being unkind or untruthful or mean or anything like that, I would be totally distressed. But in terms of like, someone judging me to be parenting the right way, or cool, or any of that stuff, I've never cared, and I don't think I ever will. And so, I think that really helps because going into parenthood, you're just like, well, this is, you know, this is what I think is good for my kid. And I just look around at the other parents and I see and I like, take what I like and don't do what I don't like, and, you know, every kid's different, every parent's different. Everyone's juggling their own thing. Like I actually think there's probably less judgement than we think and a lot of that actually, coming from ourselves. So yeah, I mean, I've got really supportive parents. You know, my mum's a super practical, like, pragmatic woman. And, you know, sometimes I'd go to her and say, How do you think I'm doing this? Right? She's like, after worrying about it's fine, you know? Like, she just sort of shuts it down. You're like, Alright, cool. And you're like, well, that's kind of drama. Yeah, that's, that's obvious. Yes. I think that's nice. Yeah. It's nice to have that grounding. Because I think if you're like on your phone, and you start Googling this stuff, you're like, Oh, my God, I'm doing all these terrible things. And I think, you know, you can't hear one thing that made me feel better was like, okay, You look at like Louis, for example, in those parents, like super involved in their kids lives and into their imaginations or whatever, but then you realize it's a seven minute episode. Seven minutes. So you've got like, 24 hours times, 60 minutes, whatever that is, like, you just can't perform to what's out there. So as long as you're keeping them safe, they know they can come to you, if they've got a problem. They get to try to do things and meet different people nurture their curiosity, like I just, you know, we're going to stuff them up in some way. You can't predict it. Like you just kind of wait to see what happens and try to build there. Like, I think you just got to build the sort of building blocks of coping and joy and curiosity and hope that they come to you when they have problems. That's, that's, yeah, no, I really like that. It's very, like I can, I can tell you a lot like your mom like that pragmatism and straightforward. It's like, Yep, it's fair. I mean, I'm not really Yeah, like, I still. So we live, like I said, we live in Brighton, there's a lot of people who are very good at sport here, I'm not one of them. But the kids around here are very free. You know, they're the bike track, they ski, they climb, they do all sorts of stuff. And they're very, I would say, like, physically aware, like, physically pretty good. And so, and some of the other parents are a lot better at this than I am like, they'll let their kids you know, experiment like, you know, ride down that steep slope that ends in a, you know, Cliff, and they'll be totally fine with that. And I'm like, Oh, my God, this is my group is child. I don't want to know how to self I just wanted to be competent, you know, so I definitely have issues with that. But I also know that if she learns her limits now, it'll be better for her later. So yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not perfect. No, apparently, is. It is that balance, isn't it? It's because that's the thing. We still have to sleep at night, you know, even if they want to do like, jump off the roof. It's like, well, hang on a sec. Oh, that's where I draw the line. You know? Yeah. You gotta hit boundary. Yeah. Like, my, my boys are so active in so into everything. And yeah, they're great. I just let them go to the point where I don't feel comfortable. It's like, yeah, I figure. If they think they can do it, they probably can. And if they're willing to give it a go, that probably means it will go okay. Yeah. And if they don't know, then like, I think where I draw the line is like, how they treat other people. So I think that stuff I try to come down fairly firm on. And sort of, yeah, treating other people with respect to being kind and all of that, but like in terms of everything else. Just go for it. We've met a few broken out. That's quite a lot, isn't it? Yeah. The Rite of Passage. Yeah, so I wanted to, I wanted to ask you, back in the beginning, we talked, you mentioned a little bit about how art and science used to be really close together. And you mentioned a little bit in your email that you'd send to me, and it really got me thinking, at what point did these two sort of practices for one of a better word start to go away from each other? You know what I mean? Because you're right rennet. The Renaissance period was massively, massively science, all of that. Yeah, no thinking. And then art somewhere has just floated off into this thing. That's, it's unnecessary for pretty much everything. Things need to be designed, like the designer of art, but then almost the I don't want to say the frivolous element of art, because it's not about probably seen like that, in terms of a capitalist society. So things sort of, yeah. What's your take on that? I think it's shocking that we don't fund it more like one of the sort of down point down. Down points for me, it was I don't know if it's last year, the year before when we started defunding, pure mathematics, and arts degrees and things because they don't have practical application. And as someone who is in the business of practical applications, I think that is the stupidest thing that we could do as a country. You know, our, our new ideas, the things we're going to be using in 30 years time come from people doing art, we're doing pure Mathematics or doing pure? You know, even studying history like these are these are things that, you know, don't have like a monetizable tangible outcome, yet they're absolutely critical, you know, yeah, they're so linked. The idea that universities have to beg industry to do research projects, because the only research projects that have value are ones that industry can use. I just, I just think it's disgusting. Into You know, we've, we are a country that has benefited off, you know, really strong science for such a long time. And then, I don't know, 2015 20 years ago, we started defunding it now with like, the lowest spend on research and development as a proportion of GDP in in the whole OECD, I think, you know, that is really short sighted to me, yeah, when it cut in. So that's just like the, that's just, you know, if you think about it as a spectrum from like, engineering, through mathematics, or applied mathematics, mathematics, and then you get to these humanities and art, like, you know, we're just, we're struggling in applied mathematics right now funding that. And to me, that's all wrong. In terms of, I think, you know, there are people who are mixing these together. And, but it feels more like a luxury than common place, you know, it might be like one artist in residence, might come in and do a few research projects or something like that, but it's not ever part of how we function so much. And I think that's a real shame. And I think it's going to bite us in the air soon. Maybe it already is. And I think art is really important for communicating, and exploring how we feel about things, I think that is responsible for, you know, going into the sort of imaginary world and dreaming up what things could look like. And if you can't dream up what they look like, how can you possibly make them? Yeah, so yeah, I think it's, I think it's really important. I used to I once had this workshop, a guy in, in our company was working with some city designers, and government, people who are in charge of designing cities. And he used to run these workshops for people. And on day two or three, he would put a creative writing piece up on the walls, like he would go home and write this story about the future of this city, from the perspective of a person, and then the whole exercise in the workshop would get these, you know, very pragmatic people to go and highlight the things in that story that kind of like, got them thinking. And then you know, and then the next the next part of it was like, Okay, well, what could we create today that would help us test whether that idea could exist? Now that whole exercise came from him being able to do some really, really beautiful creative writing that got people thinking, and so, yeah, to me, like, all of that is critical. And, you know, and yeah, just because it's not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have value. And you can argue that the case for so many other different things, like just because our ecosystem is not monetizable doesn't mean it doesn't have trillions of dollars of value in all of the things it does for us clean air, clean water, all of these, you know, safe climate to live in, you know, yet we devalue them because we can't monetize them straightaway. So I think that that's a real issue that we're going to have we're facing at the moment, and we're going to have to get our heads around, you know, the value of things that are intangible. Anyway, that's my rant on it. Ya know, I look honest, I don't know how to fix it. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Like it really frustrated? The hell out of me in COVID? And I know, you're probably in Victoria, you have a lot worse with the lock downs. And we did. But the thing that shocked me was that the sport kept going, like the all of the AFL footballers, could travel around Australia do what they want, but all of the arts like, at a very basic level, like I had gigs canceled, you know, and then you've got people like, more people traveling into state to do concerts, they couldn't do it. And then all sudden, you'd have 40,000 people at a football match. And I was like, What is going on? And Devin said to me, it's because it doesn't make as much money or you know, that's dumb, money stuff. But you look at this stuff that we look at the things that we identify ourselves as even as a culture like they're not, I mean, sport is a part of it, but it's there's a huge cultural value to these things. And even within the arts. Like I was listening to Richard Flanagan, the authors speak about the value of writing versus film. He's not saying that films would be de invested in, but he was just saying like, you know, Australian authors, like we have an enviable, enviable, you know, culture of writing here, which actually is a very, it sounded like it was a fairly new thing like Australia used to be looked at as like an outpost of British writing, right? Like, yeah, British authors will write, and then Australians will buy it. And then somewhere along the way, they started investing in Australian stories. And, you know, it's been remarkably successful, but we've had the any funding, and it's easier, just like, well, there's all these parts of the arts that are so critical to who we are and what we do. And I just, I think we've kind of like skewed over to this, like, you know, practical, which is great. I don't just obviously, I'm benefiting from it. But I just, it just makes me a little bit sad. And yeah, I sort of, yeah, remember this one? I had this friend at uni. Who's, who was? Who was talking to his dad? He was like, oh, yeah, I've got this friend Alex. And his dad was like, oh, yeah, what does she do? And he was like, A, she's studying engineering and commerce. And then his dad was like, oh, charming. And so my friend, my friend told me this, and I was like, super offended at the time, because like, today, you know, I'm doing all these great things. And then, as I've gotten older, I'm like, Oh, I get your point, like, things are not things are very practical things that are very useful, but like, what am I actually contributing to? Like, what am I really learning? Like, am I actually getting an education? Or am I just like, you know, learning how to get stuff done, which is a useful skill, but, you know, shouldn't be at the expense of people. You know, interpreting the world and thinking about how I'm, you know, telling stories and thinking about how things could be different imagining how things could be different, which is where I see, you know, arts or arts could be if they were funded better. Yeah, no, I totally agree with all that. It's just like, I think they cut the CSIRO. Like, they just was at the Liberal government that did that. I can't remember when it happened. Yeah, and I just think, oh, like you said, it's gonna bite us in the ass. And it might already be doing that. But there has to come a point where all of a sudden, they go off sheet. We've stuffed this up like, yeah, and this obsession with everything happening, like you said, the money, the monetization, if you can't make money out of it. It just diminishes the value of it so much. And that really, is something that really annoys me. Yeah, but I mean, I guess like the consolation is at the community level, people still love it. Like, I mean, you remember the first gig you played when you got back? Right? Where people crying, you know, like, I think, you know, it's pretty overwhelming and even even after you know, log, it's been what, a year and a half since lockdowns here. And anytime I see live music, I'm still super emotional about it. And everyone is. So I think at the community level, like people get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, I guess it's easy to get down about I'm not in that position. But yeah, yeah. I just don't like the way that you write about, like, people. It's the people in front of you that make the difference. And then the people that make the rules and tell everyone what to do, especially with all that locked down stuff, it's like it just shows you what they think of it. And it's like, even the people that aren't the performers, you know, the people that were allowed to dance but a just like everyone was frustrated at how this whole industry was being judged. I don't know just anyway, I gotta stop. No, no, I can I can unless. With when you were growing up, did you have like your mum, your mum, sort of these cultural norms that are like to sort of look at about where you learnt your stuff. I suppose you have talked about how you mum, you know that pragmatic nature to sort of? Yes, yeah, that's fine. Oh, no, that's not did she work? Like after she had you or anything like that? To sort of show you how you could do it? I guess. Yeah. Probably not at the time you realizing that, you know, you weren't taking note, but you know what I? Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I was I was I had a mom and dad. So dad is a scientist. And so he's The opposite, right? It's super intellectual, very slow pace, slow thinking, precise, like, wants to get to the bottom of everything analytical. And mom is like, on the other end of the spectrum, like, get it done, get it done quickly. 8080 20 rule, like, just come on, you know. So the balance of those, you know, I sort of feel like it's almost a superpower. Like, who am I going to channel today? Like mom or dad? Because both of them are, you know, right for the moment. Hmm. Um, so in terms of like the family balance, I guess. It like on the surface, I guess it would seem very traditional dad worked a full time job. He was like the primary breadwinner. Mum is a physio and she worked locum jobs. So she just only it was kind of like being a replacement teacher equivalent. But she was a physio. And it was with the same group every time, she was really good friends with all the people she worked with. And if someone you know, someone went away for a holiday, or whatever, she might cover them for a couple of weeks. And she actually was kind of working full time. But doing loads of work. Yeah. And what it meant. And what I've learned since is that it allowed her to like, it allowed her to work, but not be emotionally involved in it. So she loved it. She loved helping people. She loved working with those people. And then but she had no like, she didn't have to do paperwork. She didn't have to do admin, she didn't have any politics. She had no commitment. It was just like all the good parts. And I think I remember thinking like, how could you do you know, like, don't you want to like sink your teeth in a bit more. And now I'm like, Oh, I get it. This is awesome. That is fantastic. So I think that's sort of how she made that work. Whereas dad was much more like, you know, I'm, I'm here working in this job. And, you know, he loved I think he loved the job, but there was much more sort of obligation and doing the right thing and Yeah, sort of a more balanced like, you know, slog slog like, yeah, yeah, I know, he loved his work and like the the work that he was doing, and the people that he worked with, and all the rest, but it was definitely much more like, I'm going to plod through here and this is you know, I need to do this and yeah, so I think, yeah, they were different. And in terms of home life, like mum basically just made everything happen. So, you know, dad's job was pretty full on. So he, he was working and then, you know, mum looked after us. You know, all the extracurricular stuff. Got us for school organized. All it just everything for mental load. Yeah. So yeah, but I think I learned a lot from them. They had a very even sort of even decision making it home so that, you know, the power dynamic was very even. You know, I think, especially when it came to discipline. Yeah, it was it was quite even there as well. I don't know. You only kind of like, Yeah, I think they did a remarkable job. I'm grateful that I was born into the family. Yeah, can't really can't really take too much. I was lucky. Yeah. Sounds very balanced. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't perfect. No family is perfect. Like, we definitely have our flaws. I'm sure if you spoke to my husband. He really thinks I think, you know, our two families are quite different. We're definitely more argumentative. We, but it's not like a mean, argumentative. It's just a question like, What do you think about this? So you're wrong? This is how it should be that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, strong families are the way which is very lucky thing to have, I think. Yeah, that's for sure. That sounds lovely. You made the argument. My husband and I, we like to debate topics. Yes, we come from very different headspace and backgrounds. He's a financial planner. And yeah, I don't like maths at all. And we have different views when it comes to politics. So we'll often be having discussions and the little one will say, Stop arguing. And we'll both be like, but we're not talking about this and I'm getting passionate about. Yeah, yeah. So and I think that that's kind of like it's sort of like a, you know, you're not you're not gonna get in trouble. Yeah. Sometimes I find you need to sort of argue things out to understand what you think yourself as well. And so I'd agree with that. It's nice to have that space. Yeah. Less, you're less and less able to do that in public. Oh, or you basically get shut down for a while and I offending someone or saying the wrong thing or something. So yeah, you do need those safe spaces to debate things and to, to thrash out ideas and, and like my eldest child, he's 50, nearly 15. So he's asking some interesting questions and you want to be able to feel like you can ask them. You know, like I said before, you hope that your child does come to you. And he certainly comes to us with interesting things. And we're like, Yep, okay, we can talk about that, you know. It's good. I quite enjoy a conversation like that. I enjoy conversation. Can you share with us the website? Or any socials that you active on that you? Oh, yeah, sure. So, yeah, so milkdrop pumps.com. And in the new year, we'll be running a campaign. You know, I mentioned a couple times about how there's not a lot of research in women's health, or not as much as they could be. And one of the things there's not much research on is women's nipple anatomy, and lactating or otherwise. And that's a real problem, because it means when you're trying to figure out how to design products for women, you actually don't have the basics available. A lot of research on women's nipples is older research that was about nipple attractiveness. Where should the nipple be placed on the breast? How big should it be? What shape should it be? That kind of thing. Some of that was used for cosmetic surgery, some of it was used for breast reconstruction. And then, the other area of nipple research is for social media, identifying female versus male nipples to take down the female nipples, because it's illegal to post them not illegal, but against, you know, Getty policy to show a female nipple, which we could go into another podcast about that. And so what we're trying to do is ask women to measure their nipples to help us build up an understanding of what women's bodies actually look like, so that we can design things for actual women. So we've got our campaign on that. Coming up, in the New Years, watch out for that. Be on Instagram at milkdrop, underscore pumps, or tick tock, ah, your tick, DECA. I still haven't gone there. I feel like it's too much of a big rabbit hole for me to go down. It's pretty full on news. And I'll put hyperlinks in the show notes so people can find you. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been so lovely to chat with you and to you to your achievements. And thank you for for thanks for having me. I feel like a bit of an interloper in the in the art world. But who? Artists, hopefully Yeah, to hear from someone who appreciates it, but doesn't do it. No look, and I think that the things that you've shared are extremely relevant. So please don't feel like you're, you know, I don't know what the word is. But you're not. You're not and you know, you, you've seen it, you've created something amazing. I'm really, really happy that you did it. And I'm really happy for you for what you've done to say. Good on you. And stop blabbing now to say thanks very much. Okay. Awesome. All right. Thanks again. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parent called Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

Jen Lush South Australian singer/songwriter S1 Ep02 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jen Lush is a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia, A mum of 3, we chat about the shock of becoming a mother in a way she never expected, how her children inspire her and manifest in her art, and how guilt can serve a purpose. **This episode contains discussions about birth trauma, infant illness, grief and postnatal depression** Jen - website Podcast - instagram / website Read The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood by Rachel Power Music used by permission from Jen Lush , Suvome and Cat Bird Dog When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Today, my guest is Jen Lush. She's a singer, songwriter and passionate performer from Adelaide, South Australia. Much later, it seemed Welcome to the show. Jen, thank you so much for coming on today. It's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much for having me. It's really good to be on the couch having a Yak, I'm obviously quite familiar with you and your work, would you give us a bit of a rundown on who you are, what you do, what you've done in the past, for those who might not be familiar with you and your work? Okay, um, well, I've been practicing some form of art. I feel like probably for most of my life, but I started off in dance and theater. That was the degree that I did at university, and then kind of moved into music at random at the same time as I was at uni, was in my first band before that I'd been singing with my dad and his folk band, ended up touring with that and playing music all over the place for quite a few years. And sort of gradually phased out dance and theater and focus more on music and more in the more recent years. So I kind of do, I suppose, I went from doing electronic music to gradually drifting into more acoustic and folk related stuff that kind of changed sort of ties back into more of the music that I was probably raised listening to. And now I have a band that I'm about to release my second studio album with. But prior to that I've been in various other bands and Duo's and trios and various manifestations over the last 20 years or so. Awesome. I would love to ask you more about your trip hop trio that you were in. Can you first of all save a name? And because I don't want to say it because you get it wrong. And no. Well, it's called survival it was called survive home. A lot of people call it servo may or Salome and weren't really sure. So one of those reasons why you should never call a bear name is a word that actually doesn't exist in your life because people have no idea it's like some travel. You're in Japan and London with you group. Yeah, so we made two albums. We and a couple of singles and things outside of those albums. We we launched those albums in Adelaide, made them in Adelaide and launched them in Adelaide. And then we traveled to by way of Japan. I think we went to live in England at that time. And so we lived and played in England for a few years. And then yeah, and then we kind of gradually brought it to a halt but I think that must have gone on for about maybe 10 years. That was we were heavily inspired by listening a lot to say Portishead Massive Attack. Loads of electronica you know, lamb, you name it all those 90s selectronic Patriot pop stuff, and tricky. There were lots and and so that's kind of where that kind of sprung out of, I suppose. I really love the idea of having very minimal musical back grounds to like in terms of the like, it was often just a drum sample and like a little bass line really. And I love creating music just to those very simple elements. I feel like you know, just making up a song around those things that you're handed, it's pretty fun. Still do a little bit of that with some German dance music producers in Frankfurt, I think they are at the moment I did that when I was in England, and I'm still doing a little bit of it. Now, they still call me up and want me to want me to lay down some ideas. I don't actually perform the final cut of the vocals I get, you know, young, spunky, German people to do that. But I still like to change. So yeah, I like like crossing over with different genres, I think. I think it's kind of a cool thing to, you know, I don't really have a favorite genre, really. So whatever, whatever comes out at the time. So you were in that band with typing lunch, when you guys were obviously married. So how did you guys meet? Was it through music that you met? Initially? No, we met we're not we're pretty young. I was still in school when I met Tobin down at Yankalilla. So his, my parents were I was living at the time was in Yankalilla, and grew up there and went to school there. His parents live out at wiping a beach or on a farm out there. And they're farmers. And he went to school at Victor and then herb ray in town. And we crossed paths at the local drop in center, which was run by the United church youth group. And they would have Friday night and Saturday night activities for wayward young people with nothing to do in a place like Yankalilla and Normanville, where the only thing to do is go and jump off a jetty or sit under the jetty or walk along the jetty or catch them Tommy's off the jetty. Now, there wasn't a lot to do in Yankalilla for young people at that time. And so the church were pretty proactive about getting some activities going. So we'd, you know, I'd meet down there with my friends. And, you know, in between games of table tennis and having a crack on the drum kit, you'd make pancakes or go on an excursion to a local bowling place or something like that. And it was at that place that I met Tobin, who was helping to run it with taking over from his brother at the time, who was getting some training interstate and Tobin took over one time, and he just wandered in. And it was the only person I'd seen in a long time that I didn't know because in small towns like Yankalilla, NAMA Ville, everybody knows everybody. And I decided quite some time before that, that I wasn't going to go out with anyone from my local town. Not just because I was an arrogant I don't know. Aspirational young lady, but also, that I think everyone knows everyone. And I pretty much decided that, that they probably wouldn't like me, and I certainly didn't think I had any kind of future with anybody at my school. And so yeah, he walked in, and I thought, holy crap, who's this? I don't know you. That's an unusual thing in itself. And also, he was incredibly dashing, and kind of dressed like a bit of a punk with these ripped up jeans with the Union Jack sign up behind and these, you know, really high, high laced up docks and messy hair and stuff. And he was working as a farmer on his parents farm for a bit while he was trying to work out what to do. And so we started hanging out. And I think the first thing he said to me was, you want to come and see my skateboard. And you said, that's good. And I spent a lot of time sitting around in car parks watching him do skating while I sort of sat there with my book and had a read and hung out. Yeah. And then he was interested in arts things. And I've always always been interested in arts things. So we spend our weekends, taking photos of crazy stuff, setting up these weird scenarios and taking photos of him and stuff. He got into photography, and then filmmaking and finance so a lot of painting as well. Where I went down the performing arts road that I was already well and truly doing by that stage. Lots and lots of ballet and, and dance and theater and stuff. So I went down that road and he went down he is and we've we've pretty much got together when I was 17. So we've been together a long time. So awesome. That is so great. So you've like you've you've these Two Worlds came together over the skateboard. And then you sort of blossomed with sharing all this art together. Overnight, I thought I was going to be a farmer's wife, I really didn't expect that it was going to end up in this in this very much art driven world that we're both in. So it was lovely, a lovely thing in the end. So when did you sort of start to think, well, we're going to start a family? And did you sort of think then what's going to happen to your music and your art? Like, was that sort of a conscious sort of thing to think, well, how's this gonna fit in? See, yeah, um, we were in England at the time, and I got pregnant without actually realizing I was pregnant. So it wasn't really super planned it was, we had this long view plan that we'd be married for 10 years, and then get home and then start having babies. So it was around about bang on that when we when we did start having babies, but it wasn't because it was through any great planning. It was really just that I had, well, there's a long health kind of scenario. But I was diagnosed with polycystic ovaries some time before this, so maybe six years or five years before I was pregnant. And so I was told that I probably wouldn't find it easy to be pregnant. So I wasn't on any kind of contraception anyway, hadn't been getting periods or anything like that. And then I decided to because I didn't really want to go down the road of fertility treatment eventually, or anything, I thought I'll do some research and through my own, you know, layman's, slightly ignorant researching tactics, I found it, you could buy going on a diabetic diet, a diet that specifically important for people with diabetes is a similar chemistry thing that's going on with insulin hormones and stuff. And so I went on this, I took I put myself on this very strict kind of low GI diet thing. And, and adhere to that for two years. And then my period started all by themselves, and everything seemed to be clockwork. And it was by the second period, I got pregnant. So all by myself. So it was nice to, to try and remedy some of those things going on in my body without real medical intervention, just by trying to change what my habits were around food and stuff. So that was good. So long story short, I was pregnant and not realizing it. My first I thought I was just sick. I just thought I was had the flu, and was constantly throwing up and I thought, I've just got some kind of food poisoning first. And then I thought I had the flu. And then my boobs were getting kind of bigger. And I was like, this is weird. And I took a pregnancy test and, and it came out positive and I was at least 10 weeks pregnant by them. So by the time I had my first scan, I was 15 weeks pregnant. I'd already passed in the first trimester without even realizing. Okay, if you just breeze through it, no worries. Yeah. And so And during that time, I was heavily involved in a theater working in theater and music. I was doing some music stuff as a acoustic duo in England with another guy and also some more electronic music stuff as well. I don't think we're doing survive anymore by that stage. And I was doing a lot of theater work with local theater people in involved in shows and things like that. And I thought that in my in my wisdom that nothing much would change once I'd had a baby I thought I'll just have the baby and then he or she will will be backstage with me while I do this show that I was committed to doing and I'll just feed in between scenes or interval or before and after the show. And then I jumped back on I had this I really did have this as as a as an idea. And no one seems to tell me any any otherwise because no one else I knew was had had babies really I wasn't around a lot of people that had children at that time. I even had agents who were gearing up for me to be cast in roles that needed a mother with a brand new newborn baby so scenes in TV and stuff like that, but I was doing little bits of so I was ready with agents, you know, at my beck and call ready for whenever I was ready to show up and do some baby and mummy kind of things on TV. So it was with a great big shock to me to my system when that went completely Yeah, yeah. And all of my expectations for for myself and my art and my work were utterly changed. The minute he was born. Yep. Did you have him in your in the UK when he hadn't? Are you back in Australia? Yeah, so I was in the UK and he was born at St. Mary's Hospital as Orlando, who's now 16. So 16 years ago, I went into labor, but much like all the women in my, my family, my sister and my mom, turns out that we're not able to deliver babies vaginally, it needs to be a cesarean or nothing. There is no option there need to be less than five pounds in size. But if we're if we're going to do that has something to do with our anatomy. We're all the same. But unfortunately, they like you to go through the process of labor first, just so you can be sure that that's the case. And Orlando was stuck. And I was in pretty dire situation where I nearly didn't make it and neither did he. And there was an emergency and it was it was a mess. It was a complete disaster. To the point where he was diagnosed at six months with cerebral palsy, right hemiplegic cerebral palsy and and was not in an excellent way for quite a while the first year of his life. He was very ill a lot of the time. And we came home. By the time he was three months old. Back to Australia. So we've been here since. So that was a really different different way into motherhood. That's probably what I was hoping. What I expected. And certainly those agents that were calling me soon after he'd been born were given short shrift. And there was no longer going to be any swanning into any kind of TV studios with my new one. Yeah, we're gonna say, Yeah, you did. It wasn't just the change of life for you immediately in terms of your, your art and your work. But also the the challenges involved with Orlando with the, with the issues you were faced with him. So it was this double whammy that you got? Yeah, it was it was terrifying. Never before have I ever since have I been through anything that traumatic. And certainly for him, going through it himself. He was a baby experiencing trauma as well, because that was a very traumatic way for him to start with seizures. And with a range of medical things going on when he was first born. I don't think he was breathing when he was born, either. So there were all kinds of weird things going on in that hospital that night. I remember John Howard just been reelected and watching that on the screen. And I was in this ward with all of these other women who had just had babies and everyone had their babies. And I didn't know he was in intensive care. And I didn't know at that stage what was wrong. I thought that we're going to bring him back down to me in the night because it was very early days. So I'm watching John Howard get reelected. And he wasn't my first choice for for reelection. So I was thinking that's a bit crap. And then about I don't know, two in the morning, maybe a nurse came down and said, I'm really sorry, but we're not going to be able to bring your baby down. He's had a seizure and and he won't be joining you right now. And it was brutal. It was actually brutal the way that I was told that and I couldn't move because I'd had a cesarean and I was unable to actually get out of bed. Oh is when you've had as Aryan that's an emergency. You might have been through this. But it's, it's no joke, is it and you can't move your body is bruised and battered. And it's takes quite some time to heal. So I couldn't Yeah, and that was before the time of me having mobile phone or anything like that. So I couldn't contact over and I couldn't you know, I was just stuck in this room in my babies like three floors above and I just thought this is the pets. So it took about our content minutes for me to maneuver myself gradually to get some help in the morning and get a message to Tobin so it was just a really weird start to motherhood actually. Yeah, absolutely. So I can understand you came back to Australia, you would have had a lot more support here. Your family's here Yeah. Which obviously you needed around you at that time. Yeah. So we did, we came back Tobin's work finished house that we were leasing was over the lease and Orlando was born and not well, so yeah, all the pointers, were saying, go home, go back to Adelaide. And we're all the family was. And and that was the best thing we ever did. It was a wonderful decision. But at the time, it felt really hard, because we invade our life for five years in London. And it was a really strange thing to do, to be unemployed and to be drifting and a bit anxious. But, but, of course, with all the support that we needed here, as new parents, so that was good. And Lando needed to have the services, and it has needed the services that Adelaide can offer. And he's, he's been very well looked after, by by Nobita Children's Services and a range of other therapies that the that are here, and that certainly wouldn't have been able to be accessed in London. So yeah, it was a decision. But it did change everything in terms of art. For me, I stopped everything I did actually try at one point, I vaguely remember contacting an agent here to try and maybe do some part time bits and pieces, which was a folly, it was a folly of an idea, there was no way that I was going to be able to rock up to a casting at six in the morning, or even a shoot at six in the morning, after dropping my child at childcare with people who wouldn't know what to do around his specific needs at that time. None of that was possible anymore. And in the end, I didn't want to anyway, I needed to be at home. And my my job became being a therapist for at least the next full time, or at least the next five years. You know, it was spent doing that. Yeah. So throughout this time, did you find that you you got the support that you needed yourself? Like you talked about Orlando having the support with the different services? Did you? Did you find that you were supported? In all the ways that you needed to be? That's a good question, Allison, I I have to admit that. Probably not. So fortunately, you know, I'd had 10 years of relationship with Tobin that was solid. And if that hadn't been the case, I think we would have been in a bit of trouble, I recommend that part of it saved me. And the family around us was also vitally important at that time. I've got sister and brother and Tobin's got a brother here too. So it was very much a family. thing, but there was a lot of grief going on at the time. And I think that psychologically, I probably could have done with some outside help. Now, if that had happened, I think I'd be calling up the closest counselor and getting because I've since had counseling and found it to be incredibly useful for other things, you know, at that time, for some reason, it just wasn't. So something that came up. I remember having a massage though, back in England, before we even made it back here I had a massage with a friend who's a therapist, and she said, I think you're I think you need to have a massage and I'm going to I'm going to get stuck in. So lie down on the bed and get going. And so she started and and this is probably one of the single most revealing things to me about where I was at at the time, and probably where I was still at for quite a while. And she started to massage me and there's something about trauma being sort of locked in the body. It's a visceral, physical thing. It's not just the heart thing or head thing or whatever. And this became really clear to me she started messaging me and I started to feel nauseous. I thought I was going to vomit through the hole that my face was in. I thought oh, I'm in danger of being sick, I'm going to be sick and I started to sort of shake and I thought no, I can't be here anymore. I can't be here and I started to have a bit of a panic because I think she was starting to kind of get into some spaces and unlocked some things and and I said I've got to go I've got to go and I could feel my it'll kind of building up behind my eyes and my head this force that I didn't know what was going to happen. And she said okay, and I just ran off and I ran into the bathroom and I fell on the floor and I'm not one for sitting on floors of bathrooms even the cleanest and it was a clean bathroom. But it's not really my my game But I remember falling on the ground. And I remember, the noise that came out to me was like an animal. And it was kind of like a, like a scream, roar. thing. And I wanted to be quiet because I didn't want to hurt it, you know, here in the household to be disturbed where I was, but um, yeah, out it came this great, great big noise. Yeah. And so I think, you know, there's a lot of grief. You know, I've, I've since read lots of things about this. And I remember one at the time reading, when I learned it was about one. And I'm reading this thing about the analogy of somebody going on a plane to go on a holiday in your pack, and you're preparing, you get organized. And you know, where you're going, and you're excited, you look forward to the food that you're going to try. And you think about the weather that you're going to get there. And you maybe you've booked a beautiful place to stay, and there might be a pool, and you know, and you're planning all of these lovely experiences. And then halfway through the trip, the pilot says I'm sorry, but we're actually going to be landing in somewhere else, maybe, you know, as Becca Stan, or something like this, where you've never been in certainly wasn't what you were planning on. And you land and everyone's in shock. And they're saying, When are we going to leave? When are we going to leave? You know, we should be able to make an X flight out of here, you know, but then they say, No, I'm afraid this is this is actually where you are. And you need to look around and find somewhere to eat and find some accommodation and get sorted. And, you know, the analogy is clear, you know, you you end up in another country. That's what it was like. And you think this is not what I it's not what I planned, and it's not what I wanted, and it's it's scary. And it's strange, and I don't I don't know the language. And I was out I was without all the resources. I haven't had anything to do with disability before this happened. And I was terrified of it. What it did do, you know, inevitably, is that once you look around the country, and you actually start meeting some amazing people, and you think, Gosh, these people are incredible. And this has been here all along. And you know, why didn't I think of coming here before and the food's not so bad. And you know, and that's exactly what happened to the community of people in the disability sector are incredible. And I met many other children who are going through far more than Orlando who's actually got quite a mild disability with his CP. And I have enormous respect and compassion and joy when I'm around those people. And I didn't believe that I would ever experience such an incredible level of, of admiration and love for this world that I'm in now, and we have been for a long time. And yeah, I wouldn't actually want it to be any different. I would like it to be different for him, because he experiences hardship. But I, I, for myself, I'm a very different person. And the person that I was where I was up to my eyeballs in my own performing, singing, dancing world of, of what can be a very consuming and very narcissistic environment, sometimes in the performing arts changed everything. It changed everything. Yeah, you can't be the same person. Yeah, absolutely. That's so profound. So honest, and sharing that so so eloquently Janet's incredible period of your life, as the years sort of went on. Did you find yourself then perhaps thinking about maybe returning to performing or did you even start writing or journaling or anything? To even to help cope with things? I don't know? Did you return to art new music? Yeah, yeah, I did. And the only thing that kind of was able to be like that held on I suppose throughout all of that stuff was music. Because I was able to write words. In the evening or at night, I was able to, by the time Orlando was about one and a half I was probably meeting up with a friend who had recorded some of the earliest survive stuff as a as an engineer. I knew he played guitar and I had really lost a lot of contacts in this town, as far as music goes. And so I just called him up and said, Do you want to jam on some of the stuff I'm writing? I've been I've been writing. So I did so probably once a week or once a fortnight I'd I'd do just go around to his house and we'd muck around on some songs. It eventually became the band, cat dog bird, which I was doing for 10 years. really, from beginning to end, it was about 10 years where we were pretty regularly rehearsing and performing various venues and festivals around South Australia. And that was the thread. That was the thing that kind of got me back in. And it was it was a bit of a turnaround for writing, as well, because I hadn't really been writing my lyrics at the time. When we were in survival. It was it was Tobin writing the words, I didn't do any of the writing, even though Creative Writing was always my favorite thing. At school, and whatever it wasn't, I didn't have the confidence or something. And I didn't feel I had anything much to say maybe as well. But certainly, and I know, one of your questions probably pertains to one of your questions anyway. But I think I think I suddenly had a lot to say about a lot of things actually not just about mothering or the issues of the heart. But just about the environment I was in and as soon as you bring somebody into the world, you're very, very aware of the world that they're going into, in its really acutely different way, I think. Yeah, absolutely. You safely say things in in different ways. You never realized things with whether you were looking at something but you never saw it in that way. Then all of a sudden, you put on a different pair of sunglasses, and you know, everything looks different and feels different. And yeah, absolutely. When you when you got back into doing the work with cat dog good, how old was all end up at that stage? I think I think it was about one and a half when I started venturing out into that. Yeah, I guess. Obviously Tobin would have been, would have taken the lead with caring for Orlando when you were doing this, and that must work always. Always in the night. So I was he was asleep. I'd go off and I'll come back, you know, after a couple of hours. And and that carried on for for many, for years, really? And yeah, if there was any performances and things and yes, Tobin was always the person that would hold the fort for everybody, particularly as more children came along, that became obviously more of a thing. Yeah. So tell me about your, the rest of your family. So I've got a rider who's now 14. And he. He's a very dedicated artist himself. They all are actually all three of them. They're very much into their own things, mainly writing and drawing. And making, but also some music as well. And I've got IV as well, who was born in 2009. So she's 12. And she's, yeah, she's great. She's right into piano, playing really, and a lot of crafty Makey things. She's She's into that and creative writing as well. So, yeah, they're all busy little boards. Now. They're all busy doing their own lovely making, and brings me a lot of joy to and actually inspires me a lot. They're very disciplined. Yeah. And you're not I wouldn't have been at their age No way. Better now, but not not. Let's go so may have mentioned or your children, I want to bring in the question that I always like to ask my interviewees about, do you feel that it's important for you, for your children to say what you're doing yourself away from being the mum, but also being Jen, the performer, the singer? Is that important for you for your kids to recognize that and to, I guess, value that and see the importance of what you're doing? Yeah, I think so. I think I think it's good if as a as a parent, that you can reveal something about your world that that makes you passionate. You know, I think it's important that children can see their parents in, in many colors as many colors as possible. Because you're the real people, you know, and I think children are necessarily self involved, they have to be that's exactly what they need to be and they are until they're 20, I guess around that round about that 20 age, you know, where we're actually be a bit younger than that, but around 20 is when they, their brains are really finished knitting together and and then looking out wood and separately, you know, forging their identities very much separately to the family. But certainly up until about be and I think it's important if they if they know that there are other things going on, not just what we are doing as parents to support them in their work. holds in making sure they're comfortable and safe and loved. But if they can see that there's other things that they need to be mindful of, and I think it's in everybody's best interest, I think there would possibly have been plenty of occasions where I may have really struggled, I think, to parent the way I want to parent to be the person I want to be for them, if I didn't have other things going on. And I think it is a benefit to them to know that those things are there. They can be mindful of them, they can try and understand them. It's not something to talk about. It's something that's that it's that connects to their world, and is intrinsic to their development, too. But I also think it's part of modeling, modeling behaviors around the things that you're passionate about, I think it's good if they can see that those things are priorities in our lives, that don't take away from their experiences. But in addition to that, it shows them how to care for that part of their life, the artists that they are, because I do believe everyone has an artist within them. Somewhere, you know, someone who wants to express themselves in some way or another creatively, because I believe we're all creative. Everyone is what people think they're not. But I think that's just because they haven't understood how they connect to that part of themselves. And it doesn't need to be something that I do for work, but but just the way that they live, the choices that they make and the way that they execute their ordinary day. So yeah, I think it's important that the kids see that and see how that can happen. So my husband, who still paints, still makes films and still is involved in art in many, in many ways, musically, as well, still, that I think they have from an early age our kids anyway have have cottoned on to the idea that it's not only such an option, it's, you know, it's not just a boredom, filler, it's, it could be something that keeps you steady for the whole of your life. It's a mental health issue, actually. Yeah, that's so true. And I think when you talk about the options, like I think the kids are so drilled into them, they've got to you've got to go get a job you got to do you need got to do this and that and by showing them that you can actually your passion can actually be the thing that you do every day of your life is funny, that's an awesome thing to show them. And your children are quite involved in your art you've had I think it was in a film clip, was she sure. What's the word mind? You're sort of one of your songs? Yes, she she was given at the time. Yeah, and you've also had your latest track it's just come out you've got I think it'd be for all the children in the music video will just run just for one year his his friends, The Seagull and the seagull which is a beautiful beautiful track I'm gonna put a link to that if you don't mind in the stunning it is just beautiful. And the film the music video is just a beautiful sensation. So much you know, we worked we worked hard on many of those elements but some of those things we weren't really sure how they were going to marry together until until you actually start to build it so there's a number of chance elements that kind of come into making something like that but I feel like the video does a lot of justice to the to the music in this case. So that was Ryder involved in that but Orlando's now set to somehow appear in one of the future videos he's got ideas about what that should look like. Where we're negotiating at the moment that's exciting busy drawing a lot of he's doing a lot of illustrations for merch that will be coming out soon so he's he's right drawing is one of his his favorite skills and so he's he's busy working on some merch for us which will be fun. Oh, that's awesome, man. It's so lovely to get the stone on today this concept that the media and social media throws around of the Mum guilt? I'll put it in inverted commas. What's your take on that? How do you feel about that whole concept? It's an interesting one. And isn't it? I think I think that perhaps the minute you have a newborn baby in your arms, I think there's a certain instinctive kind of guilt that weaves itself to you. At the same time, I feel like along with responsibility and needing to give yourself fully to another being in a way that you've never had to before. I think that is one of the flip sides of that. I don't know that it's easy to escape that feeling of whatever you like, I feel like, you know, it's so easy for me to tap into, it's one of those scarily close things that keeps company with me, the idea that I could let someone down so easily, that my choices might impact on somebody so easily and so deeply. Without me even trying, it's because we're human, where we're built to not, not win all the time, we're often going to fail, we're going to make the wrong decisions, we're going to hurt people, I think its inherent in the human condition, we're imperfect. And so depending on what level of expectation you put on upon yourself, would sort of correspond to the amount of guilt you feel around, around around those things. And a lot of that's perceived stuff, some of it's not even true or real, what we think we might be doing to damage our children, you know, possibly isn't even isn't even there in the first place, we have massive capacity as humans to invent, you know, scenarios that we can feel guilty about, I think the Catholic Church did a really good job of harvesting the, the natural tendencies that humans have, and providing them with a place that they can discuss this alleviate their this guilt that they have. And as a mother, I think, you know, it's in tenfold, because I think you're constantly faced with choices and decisions to make that are going to, either positively or negatively impact the balance of the family of one child and or another or, you know, and I feel like you're constantly weighing those things up. And for me, guilt is a very present thing, I, I struggle with that a bit. So now than I did, when I was first a parent, I feel like I don't feel like guilty is a very useful space to be in, I feel like it. It informs things and I think it serves a purpose, often to make you consider and weigh up what's going on, perhaps if you didn't have that you just go full throttle into whatever it was that hedonistic desires, it's sort of it holds you up for a moment just to check yourself, I suppose just give you that little in the ear, like, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And perhaps the the point of that is then to listen to what that is saying and decide whether that is real, a real concern or whether it is coming from somewhere else. And when I say coming from somewhere else, I mean, the voices in your ears that to other people, or other sort of societal things, saying, oh, you know, women have got many of them, many more than men, I would say about why we should be doing this or that or the other. We have, you know, other generations of women who, you know, well, meaning as they might be, might say things like, oh, but you know, wouldn't, wouldn't it be better if it was the mum, you know, staying with them? Or Wouldn't it be better if, you know, it's, you know, really your job to do that not the babysitter or not the husband or, or there might be other well meaning voices that you know, say are but you can go back to work, but really, it's, you know, it's better to be at home or, you know, you've only got a few years and, you know, so you've got a lot of those voices, I think and depending on what your own mother did, well, your own grandmother's did around mothering there's there's no shortage of voices that might speak into what you feel you'd like to do. And so I've had plenty of guilt laid on me externally, for choosing to go and perform or staying up late at night doing a show and coming back, possibly tired the next day or things like that. Or even just pursuing, you know, something that you're passionate about. So pursuing doggedly, this vision to communicate through music, you know, what a thing. You know, there's such a lot of beauty around that, but, but strangely, it can be twisted to make it seem like the most selfish pursuits. You know, what are you doing that for? What's the point in that? And I do have a few voices that come to me from that direction as well. And over the years have have made me you know, pull up short, hang on what it what is that about? What does that mean? Is it something to listen to? Or is it just that person's own experience of life and, you know, being imposed upon me, my own mum has never made me feel anything other than supported for making art. She's been incredible in that way. And I think if that hadn't been the case, I might have drowned in I might have, like, a lot of women of my age, who suddenly dropped off the face of the earth as far as music and making and other art forms can go, if I didn't have such a supportive mum, who has never, to my memory made me feel at all, like I should be doing something else, even making money or something like that. She's never made me feel less for choosing those things. And she's just been happy to jump in and babysit or offer, you know, she's even offered to support me financially, you know, at different times when, when there's just no money coming in. Not that I've taken her up on those things, I think we've always sort of managed somehow. But I think that I think that was a really important part of it. Absolutely, because you could, you could see how differently it could have been, if we didn't have that spot in there, like you said, you know, just yet, Jen lash would have wandered off into the nevernever. And, yeah, that's so important. I want to bring in now, this this amazing book that you recommended to me, by North col Rachel power, and it's called the divided heart, art and motherhood. And it's like someone has FM's everything that you've ever thought in your whole life about creating and being a mother. It's like, the feelings and the emotions associated. But no one really talks about it, no one makes you feel okay about feeling the way that you do. And there's a quote that I just want to read from her that really stuck with me. It's, it's she's written that writing became his single act of independence. And when I read that, I just went, Oh, you're not kidding. Like, it's like, your whole life and your whole world exists for this one being. And yeah, you grapple with the things that you still had left from your previous life, it seemed perfectly to you for what you're interested in pursuing and talking about with people, it seemed like a perfect document. Absolutely insane. And I'll put a link to that book in the description, too. For anyone else who's interested. I agree that it's an extremely affirming thing to read it as a person who's doing I think it's important to note that making a choice to be an artist, anyway, is a really difficult decision to make in a way, but it's one that doesn't feel like a choice as well, like I don't actually feel compelled to do many other things I've always been compelled to do to make and I will, I will continue to do that. Even when, you know, I'm not putting anything out publicly, if ever, you know, it comes up, I'll still be compelled to make I'm sure of it. There's just totally there has always been there. And so it's that to make a choice to to be an artist. Whatever gender you identify as, I think it's a difficult decision. It's a road that is not well traveled, it's often fraught with issues don't really get a lot of financial reward necessarily for it. So you sometimes have to balance other work and other things with it trying to make it work. As a woman, I think it's it's another whole layer of of complexity. And I love that these women who are speaking in this book, are acknowledging that difficulty, you know, the fact that they are compelled to do this, this is the vocation they've chosen this is that this is what they're doing, whether they're making money from it or not. but also trying to do all the other things that they're trying to do as well, which don't necessarily enter into the complexity around being a male artist is a really interesting thing to read about. And as a woman who's also going through similar things, I found it an incredibly affirming document. And, like you said, spoke to things that might be considered negative emotions or whatever, as well as positive things in a way that was so real, and you can just identify with it. There's a wonderful poem by Kate Kennedy. And she, she's in the book as well. She's one of my favorite writers. And she, she wrote a poem, which I now can't think of the name of right now. I'll have a little Google and I'll let you know in a minute. It's in her book, the taste of river water. And she writes, a lot of that poetry collection is around motherhood, and being a writer. And I, oh, no, it's called it's called the Zen master have to suddenly remembered and I read that poem, that she thing and also her writing about what it is to try and write while you've got a toddler underneath trying to drag you to come outside and play and do these things. You're like, No, I just need to finish this. I've got to get this finish. And I just, yeah, it just had a real emotional impact upon me reading that. So Jen, do you find that your children pop up in your work at current work, or you're really influenced by them at the moment that the kids your kids actually end up featuring in quite a lot of the songs? And on this new album? I reckon they're probably in two or three of the songs, actually. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because that's a big part of, of my life, and they are a massive part of it. And you know, not necessarily talking directly about them, but about, you know, the impact that they have on, on me or on a situation or seen there's one about glass where, you know, I feel like I want to, it's called Glass and I feel like I often look at them at every stage that they've been at, and want to kind of shrink wrap them as they are, they're hilarious, or that little jumper that you never, ever want them to grow out, or, you know, all the funny things they say, or the little list they speak with, or, you know, just the interactions that they have, or that kind of thing, but each stage is is unique and special and funny and beautiful in its own regard. And also hard and challenging, too. But, um, you know, and so, this song is about impermanence. It's about that shifting, that constant shifting, that I noticed daily as a mother, and there's nothing more evident than the shifting of time is when you're looking at your children, because they're the ones that are constantly changing. You know, I think I've got lots of friends who don't have children. And I think for me, they almost remain ageless. Because I don't notice time passing when I'm with them. But when I'm around, like, my friends with children, we're like, holy crap, look at these kids. They used to be this small and now they try it, you know, and it's, it's a it's a real thing, you know, and I and I do, I do love the different stages, but I do I'm a very aware of the impermanence of this, of that shift of things that are that are not going to remain. So yeah, there's, there's a, there's a bunch of references in his new work that come come from them and actually directly so I did want to say that because when we talk about the impact of motherhood on art, probably what I wasn't expecting was was how much of an inspiration or you know, around content, the things that I feel like I want to write about, is quite frequently inspired by by them too, so far from being a pull on, on my creative processes there actually end up being integral to it in many ways. Hi, remember when you came down and you played at the watershed in Glencoe a couple of years ago? Yeah. And you played a song called Wolf? Yeah. And that song has, it's like it's set off this little. It planted a seed in my mind. The song it's about postnatal depression, and added a seed in my mind, which has now turned into I'm making an album. Um, I'm halfway, probably halfway through it. Yeah. And it's cold war. And it's about my post now depression, say, oh my never told you that. Oh, that's, that's really incredible and very moving to here and a very exciting to hear as well, I'd been wanting to write about it for so long, but I didn't quite know how it would sound. And then when I heard that song, and I thought I can I can share these songs in a way that our listeners will I suppose it's my pleasure, that's what, that's what the power of of sharing your work is about? I think you know, because quite often you could I could happily sit in my bedroom and just write and write and write and make and make and make and there's a part of me that doesn't feel necessarily compelled to share, share it, because I'm already doing the thing that I'm happy with. But there is there is a part of me that that says, Well, you know, this is this is also for sharing this is also for communicating with others something there's a desire within within us all, I think is to be understood and to communicate and is a brilliant conduit for communication. And even I studied dance and theater and I carried on doing that for quite a long time, I found that music was the most direct form of communication that I ended up wanting to settle into, even though it wasn't really my training area at all. And I think with with making songs like Wolf, there is a desire to capture something about the real stories, the real stories that are happening, you know, in motherhood, and it's not always, not always the Easy, easy ones to ride. I remember thinking that that one, I wanted to try and understand it for, you know, somebody close to me who was going through that, and, and trying to find ways of doing it. And then I remember thinking that a lighter musical treatment, over quite heavy words, was probably going to be the best conduit for this particular song. And I've actually use that a lot in my music, this idea of a lighter musical treatment, something that doesn't necessarily mirror the seriousness of the of the lyric can sometimes be that juxtaposition that's needed other times No, but certainly with some songs, I think that's, that can be a nice trick to get people to, to not be too bogged down in and yet still hear, you know, because you want to be heard. That's the thing that's most important, I think. Absolutely. I love how you articulate that. I guess I can ask you Is there anything else that you'd like to share around this topic that you feel like we might not have covered that's important to you, I think this is a really important subject, it doesn't ever become less important because we need to be talking about how it is to be women in art, and the layer extra layer of mothering in art, and making time carving out space for that very, very special and important part of your life, as an artist, as a woman is, is vital. And my when I'm thinking of a tune, and I'm working on a piece of song, and I use that voice memo in my iPhone, it is probably 60% of it. Now back when I was smaller, it would have been 99% of it is full of them bursting into the space with a question or something that was needed the wear of the washing machine in the background. And I'd be sending bits of samples of songs that I was writing to the rest of the band and I've been, you know, littered with interruptions and, and funny little squeaking voices coming out. I can remember wanting to spend maybe 20 minutes and I got very good at being efficient with my time. That's one thing I will say is that as a mother, I think you know, this idea that you need to be inspired and wait for the muse to come and sit on your shoulder or you need to sit in some beautiful, picturesque, you know, space in the studio in the middle of a field until you know, and that's the conditions that you can write under. No, no. I think I would never have made a single thing you know. So I'm excited much because I can just totally relate to what you saved in. I would say I'm going just for 20 minutes into my room. I had a sliding door so it wasn't even a door I could shoot a lot. It was a sliding door. And I said I'm just gonna go in this was when I made the night's insomnia. I said I'm just going to go in there I need to work on something 20 minutes I've got something in my head I need to resolve and I just need to record it and then I'll be able to remember it and then I'll be able to get back to whatever it was I was doing with you. So I'm just gonna go for 20 minutes And I know just the timing is perfect, seriously? Yeah. The little dot, the hands I've worked out could slide that door open, and then in a trot, and I'd be in the middle of recording and you know, I'm just wondering, I'm just wondering, and why they'd go and it would be short. And I'd be answering questions while still singing. It was just, it was remarkable. I still have some of those on my phone. And another thing that happened was when I was recording the cat dog bird album back in 2000. Well, forever, really, but it was released around 2014. And 15. IV was a baby, when we were recording some of the tracks. I remember her being six months old and sitting in a bouncer thing. And I was in the studio recording. And I remember her crying, and then I needed to breastfeed, and you know, and it was. And I remember, most of the men in that room that were there, you know, working on the recording with me, was slightly peeved. I think at the time, the noise, the disruption, the needing to stop and start. And it was only some years later when one of those men that I was working with had his own children. And he came back to me and he said, I keep thinking about when you had baby IV in the studio, and you were trying to record and no one was really all that patient with you. And that would have been a really hard thing to do. And now I've got my own girls, I kind of think that was a pretty extraordinary thing that you were carving out that time for that to happen. And that album wouldn't have been able to happen if I hadn't said no, this is a priority. I know that this is not ideal for her, she'd probably rather be at home. And it's probably not ideal for me, I'd probably rather not be needing to breastfeed or, you know, console her or, you know, get her to sleep while I do the next take or whatever. But we must make. Yep, we must. We must keep going. You know. And I think I hope that I hope that the kids as they get older, understand that making time for that to happen. Whether it be the boys seeing that that's a woman making time for that to happen, whether it's five in understanding that she must make time for that to happen in whatever way. But that's hopefully one of the gifts that that we as mothers can actually give our kids. Now when I'm recording their tiptoe around, they'll say Are you recording as they're coming up the stairs? And okay, yes. They're really quiet. And they've worked it out now. And they're incredibly generous with that. Yeah, that's beautiful. Before I let you go, can you tell us what you've got coming up. So coming up, I've got a new album coming out. It's due out on August the 20th. We're going to be performing at the Goodwood Institute, which is in Goodwood on Goodwood road 7pm. And the tickets you can get on, try booking. And just before that on the 24th of July, we have a collaboration kind of session, the meal was part of the umbrella music festival. And it's going to be a three way conversation, really where I'm going to try and tie together all the different collaborations I do, whether it be the songwriting or do with children, at kindergarten, I'm going to share some of those and then have a bit of a co write with the people in the room. I'm going to talk about the collaboration I do with poets do a lot of work with poets around Australia. And so I'm going to talk a little bit about that process. And then finally, we'll be sharing some of the songs that we'll be featuring on this new album. So that's tickets through Eventbrite for that one, and that's at the meal on the 24th of July. So there's a couple of shows coming and of course there's new singles coming out in the lead up to all of this that's kind of on YouTube or Spotify or all of the platforms really do bots on underwater. On one bots day and dry above the time. They more than oxygen stay alive. curdle, six to eight you can watch the going on I'm so thrilled to find sponsors. Thank you for being on the show today. It's been an absolute pleasure and an honor to talk to you. Thank you. It's just been so lovely to chat. I feel like times just disappeared and it's been really lovely to be. Yeah, reflecting on some of these things. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with the Nazi stickman. Can you

Emily Johnson US author S2 Ep53 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts Welcome! Today's guest is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of 1 from Raleigh, North Carolina, USA. Emily grew up with a creative mother, she spent many years dancing ballet and golf. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing, When Emily was 13 her mum was diagnosed with advanced stage Ovarian Cancer. Statistically, she had very little time left and shortly after, she began writing a novel entitled Bird of Paradise , She lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her mum's passing, Emily opened her mums laptop and found her unfinished novel, and a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finish the novel for her. It took Emily 8 years to complete this epic task, and along the way the process took her through emotional ups and downs, processing grief, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. **This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety.** Purchase the book - Bird of Paradise Read the article by Rachel Harris that inspired Emily Connect with Emily Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. It really does mean so much. My guest today is Emily Johnson, an author and mother of one from rally in North Carolina in the United States. Emily grew up with a creative mother. She spent many years dancing ballet and golf, and she enjoyed many trips to say The Phantom of the Opera. Emily has a background in journalism and marketing. When Emily was 13, her mom was diagnosed with advanced stage ovarian cancer. Statistically she had very little time left and shortly after she began writing a novel entitled bird of paradise. Emily's mom lived for another 17 years. Shortly after her passing, Emily opened her mom's laptop and found her unfinished novel. Together with a letter from her mother requesting that Emily finished the novel. He took Emily eight years to complete this epic task along the way, processing her grief, through emotional ups and downs, learning more about her mother and creating a legacy for her family. Bird of Paradise was finally published on what would have been her mother's 71st birthday. This episode contains discussions around grief and the loss of a parent, having a baby without your mother in your life and anxiety. The music you'll hear today is from Australia New Age ambient music trio LM job, which features myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Emily. It's a real pleasure to welcome me. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. So you're in North Carolina in the US. So what's it like there at the moment? What's your weather doing? It's doing the typical North Carolina spring. So one day it's winter and the next day it is oppressively hot and humid. So I believe today is supposed to be warm tomorrow. Thunderstorms tornadoes last week, and who knows? Maybe snow by the end of the week. Oh, wow. I'm joking about the snow. We're over that. But it's a funky time of year here. Yeah. Right. And like tornadoes. Like that doesn't sound that fun. Is that? No, no, it's not. I mean, we're not not like the tornadoes they get in the Midwest, but a tornado is a tornado as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Oh, goodness. Well, that's one thing I have never had to come across here. So that's, you know, I have no experience on that. But and you said just while we're chatting that you're not originally from North Carolina. Where are you from? Originally? I am originally from Aspen, Colorado. Ah, yep. Yeah. They were born there. Yeah. I was there for 13 years before my family moved to North Carolina. Yep. Oh, beautiful. That's, that is a beautiful part of the world. I kind of think of my creativity as being two folds. By Day and profession. I'm in marketing and advertising, which is certainly creative. I call it box creativity because you can only go so far. You've got clients and, you know, length. Regulations. And you know, I mean, a tagline can only be so creative. And then unexpectedly, I just published a book, while I guess just is a year ago. And it's a work of fiction. So a lot of creativity. It was actually originally begun by my mom when she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. And she passed away leaving it unfinished and a couple weeks after she passed away I found a letter from her that had her unfinished manuscript And she asked me to finish it for her. So, yeah, it was a Titanic, you know, trying to do that. But after eight years, I finally finished it. And I am still shocked and surprised that it's published. Congratulations. That's an epic, epic story. So you had no idea that Did you know that she was working on it? And you just assumed that it it sort of just been left to one side until you read the letter? Yes, I did. I mean, I knew for years she was writing it. And I knew she'd spent hours doing it. And I'd always ask what she was writing about. And she told me I'd find out eventually, and then I'd asked, Can I read it? And she said, you'll find out about it eventually. You know, and said, I had no idea what it was about. I mean, the first time I sat down to read it, after she passed it, I was just, I was blown away. I was shocked. Never in a million years could I have I imagined my mom writing something like this. And she's a brilliant woman. But it was just amazing to me. And so yeah, it was shocking. Oh, goodness. So I'm gonna go I'm gonna leave that story there. For sake just leave everybody on the tip of the chairs waiting. But I want to go back to, to you as a as growing up. And as a child, I guess. Were you creative? Then? Were you interested in the arts or music or things like that when you're growing up? Yeah, I mean, I loved it. I danced ballet for years and years and years. Certainly not professionally. But it was something that I really enjoyed doing. And so I had an appreciation for the classical arts. I've always been a big fan of musical theater. When I was in fourth grade, my parents took me to go see Phantom of the Opera. And I was pretty much hooked since then, I think I've seen at about 14 times, all over the world, which is kind of, I don't know, crazy, maybe fanatical. But I just I love going to the Broadway shows. And I've just always loved the symphony. And you know, any of the arts has just been a huge part of my life. I even wrote grants for the professional ballet company here for several years. Yeah. Anytime I get a chance to go and see anything in the theater on there. Yeah, that's interesting. You say about the Phantom. That was the first show that I ever saw. The town that I live in, were sort of 500 kilometers between. I don't know what that is in miles, sorry. But we're like halfway between these two major cities in Australia, Adelaide and Melbourne. So we don't have we don't have big things come here. But this one time, I don't know how maybe I was 11 or 12. And mum took myself and my sister on the bus to go over and say it. And then as soon as it finished, we got on the bus and drove back home again. Like it was just this quick trip. But that was ah, yeah, I can definitely relate to you about that. That being the first show that you see. It just it's incredible shows and it's just I love it. I mean, I when I was a kid, I even put on a one woman show the Phantom of the Opera in my living room from my parents so that they were chandelier falling and everything. Fabulous. I play the piano, you know, just for fun and kind of stress release and things like that. And I'm a golfer I played competitive golf throughout my high school years. I still play not competitively, but there's some creativity to that. And when you end up in the woods, you got to figure out how to get yourself out of their vision what could be I never thought about golf that way actually, my husband used to play and I never thought he was very creative. But you know, that's a good point. If you're hitting it straight, it's not creative. But if you're all over the place, you gotta get yourself over to that green. I love that. That's awesome so, your mum, she said You said she was you know, a brilliant person in your words was Was she always sort of creative and doing things and and you're exposed to that when you were growing up? Yeah, I mean, she was very artistic. Her art did not pass down to me at all. She never really did anything, you know, other than just for pure joy of it. She used to love doing paper cuttings, and I still remember her doing Apple birds and grapefruit roses for dinner parties. Oh, you know, she she just loved that kind of creativity. She was a school teacher. She taught elementary school. She was actually my teacher in second and third grade is the only teacher ever sent me to the principal's office she Yeah, that was embarrassing. But, you know, after she retired when we move North Carolina, she did a lot of work with curriculum and she worked for I can't think it's the American Curriculum Development Society, I think is what it was called, don't quote me on that. And so she did a lot of talks around the country about developing curriculum for elementary school level. But I just I always enjoyed watching her create things. Yeah, that would have been like a really awesome sort of environment to grow up with having that, like encouragement. And, yeah, yeah, it was, she's, she's like, every year, we used to go to New York and go to some Broadway shows. And that was kind of our celebration of our birthdays. And it always would be fast with the opera would be number one, and then we'd go see a couple others as well. So I have a lot of memories of that. So that's it. Like that's a really good setup for you, regardless of whether then you actually have this incredible task given to you by your mom to, to complete the book, what what was your first thoughts? I mean, you have shared that you couldn't believe that she had written it, when you had to think about you then writing it, how did you feel about taking on that task? You know, it's really funny writing, it was the easy part for me. I think I just I knew my mom's so well, that once I read through this and got to know her characters and, and their motivations and who they were, I actually the story came to me fairly quickly, I wrote the end before anything else, and then backtracked my way to that black and white line of where she ended. And then, you know, when I, when I created the ending of the story and the story arc, I had to complete it. So I had to go back to what she had written, and add in events and some conversations just to make it cohesive. But it, you know, it and so I guess, in part, it was almost therapy for me, because so much of her even though it's fictional, is in this book that I was able to, you know, really continue a conversation with my mom, for nearly eight years after she passed away. And in that immediate moment, after her passing is, is very difficult. You know, and everyone has a different way of grieving. And this helped me through it enormously. Because it just felt like I could talk to her. Yeah. So how did it feel then when you're coming up to finish it? Did that feel like you didn't really want to finish it? Like you knew that would be the end? You know, of the? Yeah, I, I think part of the eight years of me trying to write this, yeah, I changed careers, I had a child, which I know we'll probably be talking about. So I had a lot of distractions. But part of me also thinks I never really wanted to finish it. Because I knew that would close a chapter on my life with my mom. And I could have gone over and over and over this, you know, indefinitely, but just decided I have to stop at some point. And just type the end. And I really thought that was it. I mean, I never really intended to publish it. And then I just happened to know someone that knew someone who was in publishing and got my manuscript to them. And all of a sudden, they wanted to publish it. So it was amazing, but I just, you know, and now I can look back on it. It's been 10 years since my mom passed away. So now I can kind of look back on it. And it's a new way of connecting with my mom, you know, our words are gonna be forever intertwined in this book. And so, you know, I can kind of think to that as well. Yeah, that's such a beautiful story. Like, yeah, and um, yeah, sorry, I'm getting emotional. That's just so special, isn't it? Like, you're right forever. You're in your mom's words and your ideas and concepts and everything will be together in this one document. That's pretty massive, isn't it? Yes. I mean, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. It was so much fun getting to do it. And just knowing that that her dream of being published was was going to be fulfilled Yeah. Like on one hand, it's like, I want to say it's a lot of pressure to put on you because she obviously knew you're capable. She wouldn't have done it, I guess. But yeah, that achieving it is just, you know, like you said, it's, it's meeting that dream that your mom had. And that's pretty special, isn't it to be added, I think she always intended me to be the one to finish really put the letter in the copy of the unfinished manuscript somewhere, which she knew I would find it. It was in her closet under her computer. And she, I think she knew I'd go snooping for it because I wanted, I knew it was on her computer, I knew her password. And I think she just knew, you know, I was gonna go try and find this. And So lo and behold, there it was. And yeah, I am I, my mother never did anything, unintentionally. That just wasn't her way. And I really think that she, she knew how much I'd need this, she knew that I'd be capable of finishing it, even if I didn't think I was gonna be. And so I think she really, this was her way of, of making sure I was going to be able to make it through the next few years, until I got to that point in my grieving period, where I knew that I was going to make it through versus this is where I'm going to be forever in this empty space, you know, without my mom. So you know, and I and the way with the story goes, I don't want to give anything away. But there's a ton of me in this, I mean, you can, you can almost in a sense, feel my emotional growth throughout, you know, the book as well. And because the book follows a young girl who starts out at the age of 17, at the beginning, which is in 1967, in San Francisco, which is when my mom was in San Francisco, that's where she grew up. So the 60s in San Francisco, she's got some had some great stories. But you know, the in the book follows a decade long journey of this girl, as she, you know, learns to find her place in the world and who she is and, and learns that you have to overcome things in order to find the beauty in life. And so it it there's a very strong central family in it. That is very much like what my family was. And so I can see little bits and pieces and the characters and the stories and things. And I think she you know, she knew I'd need that there's a lot of life lessons that you really hope you can pass on to your children, but she didn't know if she'd be there. She had terminal cancer. I mean, I was 15 She got diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She had had breast cancer before that. And they told her, you know, statistically, people don't survive this. And she made it nearly 17 years past that. She wished she told her doctors, you know, you, you better make sure on there to see my daughter walked down the aisle. That was her ultimate goal. And I put, you know, like I said, I was 15. That was a long ask for terminal cancer. But she was there, she saw me get married, to have her doctors that were with her the whole time. Also, were there to see me get married, which was really special to me. And you know, she just she wasn't going to take no for an answer. She was just, that was it. She wasn't going until she was ready to go. And that's I think what? What made her the survivor? She was. Yeah, well, that is just an inspiration in itself, really, isn't it? Yeah. All right, well, let's talk about your family that you mentioned that you had a child during this process. And yeah, share us share with us about your family. Well, I have one son, he's seven and a half now, which is absolutely unbelievable to me. And my husband and the three of us live in Raleigh, North Carolina. My husband's an engineer. And like I said, I do marketing advertising. And my son his full time profession is to be crazy. I joke that he's solar powered, going and going and going to use the joy of my life. Yeah, I can relate. I've got a six and a half year old. So you know, around that time? They are they like the Energizer Bunny, they just go and keep going and going and go and they just don't stop. Do they know they never do. So how was that like then trying to write and then, you know, raise a little ball of energy. Yeah, well, I mean, I, you know, I started, I started writing, I got pregnant, I guess a year and a few months after my mom passed away. And so I I had already started writing this a little bit prior to getting pregnant. And then during the pregnancy process, I was actually I feel like my creativity went up tenfold. I don't know why. Once I got past that third trimester that or the first trimester that was a little rough week. We could do it without that. But you know, I had this time I slowed down my my actual profession quite a bit during my pregnancy, it was kind of a rough one. So I spent a lot of time at home. And this is how I filled my time. And then once he was born, I put it down, I almost forgot about it. It was it was a couple years. I mean, it wasn't until he went to preschool that I was able to pick it up again. And he was in preschool for about six hours a day. So I dropped them off. And then I'd go to a local coffee shop with my computer and just sit and write. And that's kind of how I went about and then we, you know, when he went immediately, well, not immediately, he actually ended preschool early because of COVID. And did virtual kindergarten. So that was a bit rough. And I did not, you know, it's during that virtual kindergarten is when I was able to get this published. So he'd be sitting there and I'd be editing it and listening to him on the computer as well. So so it was definitely on and off. And that's I think, why it took me eight years to bash hmm, yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you about your identity when, when you became a mom, did you have the sort of shift in? I don't know, we sort of joked that feels like we've been hit by a truck. And, you know, we don't know, if we're up the right way or the wrong way, whatever. Did you sort of experience that sort of emotions when you had yourself? I did. I mean, it was funny. I was, you know, it was very hard for me giving birth without my mom. My dad's older sister actually came out for several weeks to be there with me. And then I was so late in my delivery that she left a couple days after, because she, she needed to get back to our family. But you know, so I think for the you know, it's just such a shock. It's like hitting a brick wall, where you have those moments of pure joy. And then all of a sudden, you think, Oh, my gosh, I'm responsible for another life. And I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, it was, you know, my son sneezed. And I immediately wanted to call my mom and ask if I needed to take him to the hospital or not. But she wasn't there, you know, and my dad was completely overwhelmed as well, I don't know, what do you do? You know, and it was, you know, so for the first few years, it was really difficult. Not that it's not still difficult, but it was just kind of, I really just became Nate's mom. That's what I did. And then I ended up going back to work. I'll be it a little differently. It wasn't in the ad agency, or nonprofit world. But I ended up going back to work and did that for several years, my college roommate, who I was still really good friends with, actually ended up watching my son while I was at work, which was, you know, I had someone to trust. But I just got to that point where I felt like I was missing him, I felt guilty that he was away from me. And so I stopped working, which I never thought I do. I always intended to be that career person that would have a family and juggle their full time career and figure it out. And then all of a sudden, that wasn't important to me. I just, you know, I lost that, that drive to have that type of career. And in advertising, it is very difficult not to be 100% committed to the career if you want to move up. It's just it's a cutthroat business. And so yeah, my my identity as a career woman completely went out the window. And I became a full, you know, full time mom. And now I'm able to do freelance marketing advertising. So I have my own clients, I can work from home on my own schedule. And I've built a business that way, which has been fabulous, but I still remember hitting that moment where I I looked in the mirror and I was like, I don't even know who I am. I mean, I've I've everything is now revolved around my family, which is great. But I saw myself starting to go downhill because I had lost who I was. Yeah, yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? If you if you don't sort of look after yourself and know who yourself is, I suppose you do. You do risk just sort of dis dissipating. I suppose just like you said, just being nice mum. And, and that's all you exist for. And then that can be I don't know, I actually spoke to a lady a couple of days ago when I was recording. And she had the same experience. She always wanted to have four children. That was her dream was just to have four children. And she had to and realize how hard it was but she just kept pushing on and she got the four and then she thought she'd be happy. They she thought Once I've met my goals, this is what I want. Now I should be happy. And then she couldn't work out why she wasn't happy anymore. And it was because she'd lost sight of who she was. Like she was just existing for her children, basically. So, yeah, it's scary when you get to that point. I mean, there's a lot of feelings that go into that. And I actually, you know, I had started to try and find my point of passion, again, that fit into, you know, that circle of family, I mean, there's things that I would love to be going to do. But you just can't, as a mom, I mean, there's, you know, the logistics of babysitting, and school and things like that. But I needed to find that thing that was just mine. And I started to do it, I got really into kickboxing, and I went to the gym. I had a trainer who had I've known for years, because I broke my back when I when I think from years of playing competitive golf, I had fractured my back unknowingly, but it came to a head in 2011, and I had to get surgery. And so he was my physical therapist when I was able to kind of start getting back to it. So, you know, I'd always been working out, but it really became a central focus for me, when I found out that I had completely lost who I was. And, you know, I obviously, you know, if some, my son needed something, I had to put the working out on the back burner for a little bit. But, you know, I tried very hard to protect that hour of my day. And but then, you know, you kind of start losing it a little bit when when something happens, or your son goes to school, or, you know, there's a life change. And then I read an article in a magazine that Rachel Harris wrote, she's an actress, and you know, about her becoming a mom in in the acting world, and what she learned about it, and she got really into fitness as well. You know, and she just, she realized that being a happy mother made you a good mother, you know, and that, so I didn't feel the guilt anymore about really taking that time for myself, because I realized what I was doing was actually helping my son and not harming him. So, absolutely, yeah, that's something that really common theme on the podcast is people talk about having their own needs met, so then they're able to meet the needs of others. And I think that's, you know, as a mom, who's there for everybody, not, you know, you're not just there for the children, but you know, your, for your partner and your job. Or if you've got, you know, pets, you've got to look after, like, you're there for everybody, like, there's so hard, you know, and I suffer from anxiety, I was always a type A personality, and then the older I got, and then having a child, I took my anxiety up to a huge level, and that would interfere with my ability to do things. And so, you know, working out came became the way to combat it. I took it a bit too far, not that long ago and broke my ankle doing it. But you know, you have to be, you know, a little careful. You know, I really did. I mean, if I'm happier, my family's going to be happier, I'm going to be more present in the moment, which is so important. Rather than thinking of the what if this happens, or I didn't do this, right, or, you know, it, it's so important, I think, to do that. And I I fall, you know, off the wagon every once in a while and have a moment of complete, you know, panic about things, but I think I'm getting better. I'm a work in progress. I think we all love to be honest, everyone has their moments. And then, but I think it's having that goal, like you said that, that point of passion, which I think is awesome, saying I'm going to start using that is, is really does, you know, even if you, you're conscious that you haven't done it for a couple of days, whatever, it's always in your mind now because you've got something that you know, makes you feel amazing. And, and that in turn, you know, helps you, you know, be the mom that you want to be I suppose for one, it's very much. That's a lot of my mom, my mom, because it's a theme throughout the whole book is finding that thing that you're passionate about and finding your sanctuary, which she always said was you know, finding who you are and knowing you know, knowing who you are and liking who you are. And once you find that place, you know, things the good will come. But she was always one to live passionately, you know, she had to face her mortality. So she lives you saying she lives every day to the fullest. It's kind of weird because someday she just you know, throw up her hands and you know shout and yell and say things I can't say on a podcast. But everyone's allowed to do that. You know, I mean if you don't if you're perpetually perky, it's you're hiding things that's just not human nature. She was a big proponent of of Never Letting Go Have passion in your life. And unfortunately I did. And you know, since that's a theme throughout the book, I mean, this, this book is really almost a guide for me at various stages of my life, and I'm forever thankful for that. Yeah. It's awesome. It's like, you've got your own personal little, you know, I don't want to call them a self help book, because it's not, but you know what I mean? Like, it's a, it's a little, little reminder for certainly self help, you know, it's not what to expect when expecting, but it is definitely self help. For me. I mean, I just, there's little reminders in there, where I just have to say, oh, yeah, you know, I forgot to do that I forgot, I forgot me, I forgot to hold on to that passion. And I really, it has changed my life to remember to go back and take care of myself. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. That's an incredible gift for your mom to give you to like to raise you in that way. And to, to actually role model that for you for you. And then, you know, I'm sure as your son grows up, like, he's going to have the same sort of mentality, because that's how you're authentically living your life in that way. It's just I hope so. I mean, it's, you know, I can see a lot of meat in him with his personality, you know, he looks just like my husband, except for his hair, his hair is as wild as mine is. But, you know, he, he's very type A, I can see the anxiety in him. You know, and I'm hoping that I can combat that. You know, from being on the other side, I know what it's like to have that anxiety, you know, in college, sometimes it can be, you know, detrimental. It can, it can make things very difficult sometimes, you know, particularly with exams. And so I'm hoping, you know, that I can I can impart that wisdom on him, like my mom did to me, or tried to do to me. But it took me to getting an adult in my mother myself to understand exactly what my mom was trying to say to me the whole time. And you know, and this book is his grandmother's legacy, and his mom's legacy. I did very similar to my mom, I tried to put in, you know, like I said, it's a fiction, but there's some very deep, you know, things for me, not only, you know, with the storyline and places that the book goes that I wrote from experience. I mean, he'll get to, you know, see some of my experiences in life. But it's also I tried to put in, in those lessons that I want to pass on to him as well. Yeah, you know, and it's, it's, he's very proud of it, which just makes me feel warm and fuzzy. He drew an art in art class, he drew a picture of the cover. And I just, you know, I went to tears when I saw that. Oh, that's beard focus. Yeah, that's, that's was something I was going to ask you is like, how does you know? Does he know that his mom's an author? And obviously he does and yeah, like, very proud of it. I mean, to hear him talk you think I was like a best selling you know, New York Times famous author. So yeah, it's great to see I mean, you you hope that your children see you as this hero figure in your life. Y'all not so I saw my parents I was very close to my parents. I was an only child just like my son is going to be because I was after his birth I was one and done. It was not gonna happen again. Oh, I was yeah, that was not I'm so thrilled with the way it turned out but it was not pleasant. Yeah, but it's just you know, that's just it makes it worth it. Yeah, I nearly I nearly only had one because I had a very terrible delivery and then a very challenging baby. So my kids have got seven nearly seven half years between them. It took a while to get back on the wagon. I understand that I just never got back on the wagon Yeah, no good on you. will get a dog that's all. Yeah, now I could have easily have done that. was at the point where I was either going to get a hysterectomy or have another child like that's how my brain was like flip flopping between the two options. You know, it was my husband it was not was not not in the cards. Tell us the name of the book called Bird of Paradise. Can you share what it's called that? Or is that sort of comes out in the book more? Would you rather know? Yeah, it's funny, I don't, you know, my mom titled it. And I found out from the very little notes that she left that at one point, she was gonna call it letters to my daughter, which just gives me the warm fuzzies. Because a lot of it is kind of have that relationship between the mom and the daughter. It's it's a lot of that. But she her favorite flower in the world was bird of paradise, she had one in the room that she did the majority of her writing. So it does, you know, for her it, there was a bird of paradise flower that the mother took everywhere the family went, because the father's job takes them to all these different exotic locations like London and Paris and Hong Kong and Jakarta and all these amazing places. And so she always brings the bird of paradise with her. But that's where it ended with my mom. It's part of the story. And because I knew how important it was, I carried it into a much larger theme where it became symbolic and not necessarily just the flower. So there's it's twofold. You know, and there's bird of paradise all over the cover. There's a there's an island in the book, which is the family's true home, even though they live all over the world. And that island is, is the one place in the book that doesn't really exist. It was all made up in my mom's mind. I've had so many people ask me, you know, where is it and I have no earthly idea. But it is this beautiful idea like tropical islands that I would love to find Sunday. And of course there's bird of paradise on. So just coming back to how you approached writing the book, did you have to? Did you find that your style of writing was already, like similar to the way that your mom had written? Because you've been reading? Or did you have to make a real conscious effort to try and make the way that you're writing blending with your mom's? It was a very conscious effort, because just my background is in journalism and marketing, which is not descriptive and poetic. I mean, you have to say what you want to say and get out of there. And so, you know, for me, it was I wrote very black and white. My mom was very descriptive. You know, very, I've had people compare it to a movie in the mind. So there was no little detail she left you know, hidden and you know, so my first draft of this, you could tell it was two different writers. It was my draft was very, you know, just this is what happened. These are the facts. And here's the story and, and I knew that was going to happen. So I had to go back over, you know, my my sections of it. And just I've said several times, and I hold true to it that it was like an oil painting, where you just add layer upon layer of description until I got to that level of what my mom's writing was. And that took you know, it took a massive amount of some of it was evaluating my internal feelings and using that to get to that level. A lot of it was finding Google Images that spoke to me that made sense within the story and just scribing them, or finding, you know, this book goes somewhere, and I don't want to reveal where it is, but this book does go to a location that is one of the most special places in the world to me. And so I was able to pull out old family photos and, and the feelings I had of seeing these things in person and, and use that, to really describe it, I'm still shocked that I was able to do it. I'm shocked that nobody really knows the true line of where I took over 100% Not even my publisher. You know, it's just my father is the only one that knows, and I hope it stays that way. I've had people guess, and you know, and things like that. But I don't want really any I don't want to reveal that. No, I Yeah, even if they guess, right, you're not going to tell it because it's gonna smile and say, you know, no. Yeah, that's true. No, but that's the thing, too. It's, it's part of this incredible story. It's the joining together. But at the same time, it's the same. It's one in the same if you know what I mean. Like, yeah, you you wouldn't want people to to like to tell people because I don't know. It just doesn't it wouldn't feel right, wouldn't it? I know. And it was very important to me, you know that I stay true to my mom's story. This was her story. You know, I, I made sure her name was listed first on the cover. That was really, really important to me. For some reason, it's small, little detail. But that was that was essential that that happened because it is hers. These characters are hers. Just because I completed their story art doesn't mean I took them over. And I didn't want to take away from her writing, you know, I could have easily gone in here and just stripped her writing down to match more my writing style. The book is over 550 pages long. It's a saga of a book. But and I could have certainly done that. But then I would have it wouldn't have been hers anymore. And that's what's so special about it. And she didn't leave any notes. For me whatsoever. There was no outline, she created every character with the exception of one I just had a name and knew who that character was supposed to be in the story. And that was a lot of fun for me to create that particular character. I have a feeling she did that on purpose. I don't think she wanted to box me in. I think she wanted me to be able to take the story where I wanted to take it. I actually don't even remember her writing for the last year of her life. Granted, I didn't live at home, but I think she stopped intentionally. I mean, I just I I don't know why I just have this feeling. But I think she, she did not want me to feel like I had to stick to one particular story. I like to think where I took it is exactly where she would have. Because I knew her like that. I knew that the way she thought, you know, this is this book starts as a coming of age family saga. And then as the main character gets older and more experienced, it works its way into a romance. And you know, I think you know, and I just think that's something she wanted me to experience as well. This is such an awesome story. Honestly, how many people can say that they've done what you've done. Like, it's just you must feel like incredibly, like proud and privileged. And, you know, all the all the big words and emotions like to have been able to do it. I'm so honored by the fact that she entrusted me with something that she had worked so hard on and, and I am very proud of it. I'm blown away by the reception. It's gotten the things that people have said, I mean, I've been compared to famous authors that I never had a million a barber freebie, and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool. And, you know, and then you know, so it's just been absolutely incredible, you know, the experience and the almost the confidence that has given me again, I mean, that's something as a mother, I don't know, if it's just me or a lot of mothers, you start losing your confidence in your ability to do things. Am I ever gonna be able to do this again? Or is this any good? Or am I any good? You know, and I think a lot of that comes down to a first time Mother, you don't know what you're doing. So there is not a lot of confidence in that and you carry that through other aspects of your life. Because that's just the mode you get into is you just don't know if you're, if what you're doing is right. And that's the thought patterns you have. And I've always had a bit of a confidence issue anyways, so it just amplified itself. But you know, and then the thing that's really been special is the people that have reached out to me less about the book and more about the fat They've experienced losing a parent or they grew up with a parent that was facing a terminal illness and what that was like for them, or somebody that I hadn't even spoken to, since middle school reached out because his mother had just been diagnosed with cancer. And, and that has, where things have so surprised me. Because I've done a lot of podcasts that have been more grief based podcasts than writing technique. And that's, I think, a gifts, my mom left as well, she was, you know, she'd be in the chemo treatment room in the middle of eight hours of chemo, talking to the person next to them and encouraging them and getting them talking about things that were not cancer related. And that was just the person she was she was this larger than life personality that put so many people and so much ahead of her, not to her detriment, but I think it was part of what kept her going as well. You know, and now I'm getting to do that and carry that legacy on. Everyone talks about the seven stages of grief for what it is which, which to me is a bunch of hooey because nobody goes through grief the same way. You know, you might feel the guilt, which for me was the hardest part, you know, and obviously, you're going to fill that empty void and things and, and I'm still 10 years out grieving. But I think I've hit this point where it's, it's therapeutic to me to now talk about it, I spent years where I could not talk about it. It just was something. You know, I wasn't in denial, but I didn't want to bring up the memories. And that last few days, because she, despite the fact that she fought cancer for 17 years. The end was very quick. She was there one day and on life support the next day, and she passed away the day after Christmas in 2012. And, you know, in a sense, you know, you never want to lose someone, you kind of hope it goes that way. You don't want to see them with a slow decline. We were lucky I got a chance to say goodbye because she knew where things were going. I knew where things were going. And she had prepared me very well for it. You know, not that you can really say you're prepared for that. But I was lucky I got a chance. The last thing I ever said to her was I love you. And she said that back and that was it. And I was I just that's a gift that I will have forever. But, you know, I'm still I'm still like I said I'm still grieving and being able to now talk about it from a way of maybe helping other people is my new stage of getting through this. Yeah. You know, so it's not just helping, you know, it's helping me talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. And like you say, you can feel like you're prepared. I mean, yeah, there's you can do some preparation, I guess. But when that actually happens, it's like yeah, it's I got that closure that that conversation actually she was fine the night before she went on life support, she's in the hospital, but she was fine. And she and I stayed up almost all night with that, that conversation of closure where you you know you talk about things I mean, when I was a brat as a teenager you know when I got a chance to apologize or I got a chance to tell her you know, hey, I'm gonna be okay you know, I've married this wonderful man I've I've got this in store for me, you know, be comfortable with the fact that I've gotten to that place in my life where I'm I'm happy where I am you know and and I didn't need to apologize for that stuff. But it's you say everything you need to stay knowing that that's the conversation you're having. Yeah, yeah. Just take a moment and have a drink of water. Gonna have some coffee but you're right about grief. I mean, gosh, there is no there is no linear checklist of all the things that you go through in In this particular order, and, you know, my Nana passed away when I was 10. So that's like 40, sorry, 3034 years ago, and I still have moments where I just burst into tears because something's reminded me of a smell something, usually it's a smell. That's me, or I see a particular bird. Pardon me? And I just like, oh, no, I used to love those bits. And then off I go, you know, it's like, you're never, you never stopped grieving someone. I don't think it's just in different ways as time. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I've told you know, there's a lot of people that say, Hey, it'll be okay. But you know, it's not, you know, I used to hate it, when people would tell me that, because it's never going to be okay, that I lost my mom, but it's going to be different. I'm gonna get to that point where I can look back at the gift of the time I had, and not at what I've, what's been taken from me. Because it would be, you know, it's in times like that, it's very easy to get angry and, and resent, you know, whoever or whatever, you know, it's not fair. You know, all this sort of emotion, did you sort of go through that, as well. I didn't go through the it's not fair kind of stage. I remember the first few weeks afterward, you know, you're you're calling the banks and taking care of the credit card from the medical bills and things and I had my dad to go through all of it with but you're very, you know, systematic once you right away, which I think is a blessing, because you're you're not I don't think at least for me, I was not capable of facing the fact that she was gone. And those first few weeks, it was just not going to happen. It was actually the day I found the letter about the book that I finally realized, you know, it's the casseroles have stopped coming, the family's gone, people have gone back to their lives, and mine will never be the same again. And that's the first day that I really let myself go. And, you know, but I think for me, this, the place I stayed the longest, is also the place, that's the most detrimental, and that's the guilt. The guilt that, you know, things you said the smallest little things, you know, teeny tiny little things that the person probably had didn't even remember. And all of a sudden, they come flooding back and you just feel so guilty about the things you've said and, and certain things and the fear that, you know, I had, I went into an instant state of fear with my dad, I wasn't I couldn't lose my dad, I every little thing you know, don't get in a car dad, or make sure you're taking your medicine or so all this kind of stuff. And I stayed down with my dad for a couple months afterward. Because I was able, you know, thank God, I was able to do that. But you know, and so it's those two feelings that really were hard for me. And that guilt took a lot of time to get over, I did go see a therapist. I am not despite the fact that I talked about it on podcast. Now. At that point, I was not someone that would share my emotions. I don't cry in front of people. It's just not, not me. You know, I don't want to I don't want to show it's not a weakness whatsoever to express your emotions. But to me, I felt like it was showing a weakness. And I couldn't do that. I also wanted to be strong for my dad, he'd lost someone he'd been married to for 43 years. And, you know, it's it's and he was young. I mean, my mom was only 63 when she passed away. You know, and so my dad was in his mid 60s as well. And you just don't expect something like that. And, you know, but instead I let myself stay, you know, and it was it was not a therapist that got me there. She said something about guilt. And I all of a sudden realize that's what's preventing me from moving forward. I have got to get this guilt. I've got to work through it. I have got to let it go. And and so that was the biggest part for me. But you know, I never went through the anger. I never went through the denial. I think I just let myself be overcome with the guilt. Yeah, my dad sold their house and moved into another house. And that was a hard thing to say goodbye to and then you know, going through clothes. And you know, my mom had a lot of beautiful jewelry. So I've gotten to keep that and you know, but I did get rid of clothes except for the few that I will never wear. But they just hold special memories for me. I mean, one of them was this, you know, duster jacket she used to wear to fan with the opera every time it was her thing that's not going anywhere. And there's pieces of furniture that are memories of my childhood, which are completely not my style, but I can't give them up. So they're in my you know, guest room, which is the collective room of things that I don't know what to do with. You know, it's the memory room. Yeah. But it's a difficult thing. I think with every little thing. I've been able to let go I've healed a little bit. Knowing that, you know, it's, it's just a process. Yeah, yeah. And it will just take as long as it takes to go through different motions at different times. And it's just It's an ongoing thing, isn't it? It doesn't have an ingress. No, it never has an end, but it gets better. Just going back to you to what you said earlier, you said about how you've gained confidence. Do you think you write another book? I have another book idea. It's actually related to birth paradise. And it's the story of the parents that are in it. I see a lot of my parents and those two characters. And it's funny, because there's a little bit of everybody and all the characters. I mean, there's a lot of my dad and the little brother, my mom, you know, clearly didn't like my high school boyfriend. And I didn't know that until I read the character, the high school boyfriend, I was like, Oh, okay. I know who that is. And the, the way the parents met in this book, is the way my parent my parents actually met, they met at UC Berkeley. And so it would be really neat for me to go back, I'd have to go back much further. In time, since this book starts in 1967, which was a whole nother issue with turning to write it was that it happened during time period, I wasn't alive. That was, that was a lot of research going into that. But yes, I'd have to go back quite a bit. But it would be it would almost start the connection again. And it would give me a chance to go to my dad and find out about his life and use that to put into it. So it's, it's there, it's in my mind, I've tried to start it and it's I just can't get past the first sentence. You know, and I think that's an important thing for a writer to recognize when you've hit that writer's block and just walk away for a while. I've got too much going on with my clients and, and keeping up with my seven year old. Ish, just not right now. It's more of a stress than it is of a way to relieve stress. And that's, you know, writing Berta paradise was very stressed, you know, a way for me to escape the world, a way for me to let go of some stress and get that emotion out. It's, and it went in very positive way, this new book trying to write it, I just felt this is a negative thing for me. And it's time to walk away. So I don't know, is really the answer to the question. I hope so. Yeah, I hope you dig through it when the time's right. You know, when, when life when life gives you that little nod and says, Okay, now it's your turn. And I'm a big believer in that, that, you know, things happen for a reason. And there's little, you know, I, I always my mom always kind of taught me that, you know, you can't control what happens in life, but you can control how you respond to it. And that there's moments where you're given gifts, but whether or not you choose to take them is completely your choice, and you're the one that writes your own story. And that actually, is heavily put into bird of paradise, because it's something that my mom and I had talked about so many times that you know, nothing, nothing is going to be, you know, necessarily given to you, you have you're presented with these gifts, and then it's your choice whether or not you go with it, and they can they can come to you at any moment. But they'll come to you at the right moment when you need it the most. And so hopefully that that gift of writing a new book will present itself at some point and then I will jump on it that is so good. Can you share with us how readers can get a hold of your book? Yeah, it's sold exclusively on Amazon. It is theirs Believe it or not a lot of books called Bird of Paradise. Most of them are nonfiction about the actual flower and bird. So be careful there. But it's a yes. So it's it's by Maryland and Hughes and Emily HUGHES JOHNSON. And it's on Kindle Unlimited. There's a paperback Kindle itself. So yeah, I would love people to read it. I mean, sharing my mom's work with the world has just been incredible. Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you like it, review it because it's really important. Read these reviews make the world go round. I do. And unfortunately, I mean, it's something I find myself doing more since having published a book as an unknown author. I mean, I'm completely no one knows who I am. My goal was to sell one book to someone that wasn't related to me. Yeah. And, you know, it's happened, it's been great. But, you know, I find, you know, reviews are so difficult, particularly with Kindle Unlimited, you know, people aren't going to go back and take the time, because we're all busy to go write a review, even though you know, I know what the sales are and things like that. And so, I've tried to find, you know, books that don't have a lot of reviews, because I think a lot of incredible books are missed, because people look at that, and not the book. Yeah. And I have found some incredible books that don't have that many reviews that I just wish, you know, I hope I don't, you know, I don't want to miss out on something from these authors. I'm not trying to tell people to get well, yes, go buy my book. But I'm not trying to say, don't miss it because of reviews. But you know, and I think that's something the publishing industry is so incredible now that they have opened up smaller hybrid publishers, self publishing, you know, things like that, that you have this option for really talented writers who, for one reason or another, can't get in with the top five publishers, and a lot of that is money. It takes a lot of, you know, money and time to go query and get an agent and then get into these publishing companies, and they're so rigid about what they will and will not, you know, published and I follow a lot of writers on Instagram and Twitter, and one of the things from the smaller writers is they get turned down, you know, they get these letters say, it's an incredible story, we love it, but you don't have enough social media followers. You know, and that's, that's, that is so limited. Just you have to wonder how many incredible stories are out there that will never be seen, because of something so unrelated. It's not about you know, in I'm sure, you know, the top five publishers are wonderful, but, you know, you almost concerned about sales more than getting a beautifully written story out there. And that's a real shame, because, I don't know, I have this feeling that, you know, social media exists now. But will it be around forever, you know, like, these, the stories and, and books will probably outlive all of this stuff, you know, and that would be a shame for something to have, just because it was in this time period, when social media was around. And it's being judged by that, for that not to be shared. It's a it shine. Social media is great, and being able to connect, you know, this huge world, but it is also so detrimental to society. And I use it I have to, I mean, that's one of the ways that I market the book, I don't have a choice. But if it wasn't for that, I would start giving up social media, because I just, you know, it's just not it can be you can go down the rabbit hole very quickly. And it's not necessarily a good thing. Oh, I basically got I ended up getting off Facebook for my own personal stuff, because I just, I just couldn't put up with the rubbish anymore. I just thought, like rabbit hole stuff, I just get dragged into things and think why am I caring about this, you know? So now I just go on Instagram, and then I just link it to go on my Facebook. So I never have to go into Facebook. But then I miss a lot of things. If people tag me and stuff or invite me to things. I'm like, oh, sorry, I missed your best friend's having a baby and you don't know about it? Exactly, yeah, put it on Instagram, then Oh, no. Share it with everybody. And then I'll be able to, you know, call and say, Hey, congratulations. But it is funny, like this whole thing that's meant to bring us closer, like we know what people are doing. So we feel like we know what they're doing. But we're not really knowing what they're doing. Because we're just seeing all these little tiny curated aspects of their lives. And it's, it's sort of pushing us apart more in a way. Well, and I think you try and present your best self on social media. I mean, who doesn't you know, you don't you want to make sure you're presenting the the highlights and so many people forget that. It doesn't matter who you are, life is dirty. I mean, it's there's going to be moments where you don't want to present yourself to the world. And so you don't and I think it gives a false sense of who people are, unfortunately, unless you're one of those people that is blatantly you know, getting yourself out there to just showing all the aspects of your life and there are some people out there and I appreciate you know, the people that do that. I think it takes a lot of courage to be able to put Good, the Bad and the Ugly out there. But I think that's something a lot of people unfortunately forget that this isn't showing the whole story. And I think it it negatively influences a lot of people. It's happened to me, I've looked at things and I'm like, gosh, you know, it's it's that that big, ugly, jealous. forbear, yeah. You're like, why can't I be doing the ad? Or or you know, and it's, it's not necessarily happening that way few you know, mom is like that too, you start comparing yourself to other mothers. And you know, every mom is different, every situation is different. And, and you know, you, you want this pride and you're your child and you want your child to excel and exceed, but if you're not careful, you're starting to compare them to others, and not to their best self. And, you know, and I've had to pull myself back from that every once in a while. Question, am I being a good mom? You know, and but it's, it's, am I being a good mom, for my son? Not for the kids of the entire world? Yeah, yeah. It's hard. I mean, that's the you know, people think physically being a mother is hard. But there is a lot of emotional second guessing. And, you know, and I'm doing this correctly. What, you know, am I a terrible mother? Am I a good mother? Am I you know, am I completely screwing my kid up for the future? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't talk about that unless they're moms themselves. Oh, yeah. That's the thing like this, the mom guilt, that sort of label that we've got, I call it a hashtag mom guilt, because it's like, it's just been created for, for social media, but it's huge, like the way that we're forced to judge ourselves. Because I don't know what I find mostly. Is it? Other mums too, but mostly people that don't have children? Or like, or how come she's doing that? Why isn't she with a child? Or? Oh, she, she's going out again that night? You know, like, they're just always making judgments upon you, which makes, then you question yourself, like you said, you, you know, you don't have that self confidence. So you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. But I don't know is this, I get sick of this whole guilt guilt trip that moms feel like they have to go on? Well, I think just you know, societal norms, I think a bulk of society hasn't gotten past the 1950s. Mom, you know, where the mother is 100% The mother, you know, and that's your focus. And that's what you do. And you You know, I don't want to say you give up life, because that is wrong to any mother and the 1950s. It's not that but there's this almost, you know, it's almost Hollywood created view of what a mother should be. And that hasn't, that hasn't morphed to match the sign of the times, you know, we're way past the 1950s. Now, things are different. Women can be more independent, and they can start putting themselves you know, ahead of things because it's the healthy thing to do. And I think when someone sees a mother that does that doesn't understand that, that that is not being a bad mother is being a good mother. That is That is how, you know, we we deserve to be able to do stuff like that, so that we can come home and then put 100% focus into our families again, because it's impossible. i It's exhausting. And I don't think I've seen my friends that are moms that have just stopped everything to be a mother, which you know, when you have a newborn, you kind of have to do that you don't really have a choice. But if you never change as your child grows older, either. It's very detrimental. And it was for me, I mean, I've learned to start going out with my friends a little bit, not to date the podcast, but COVID put a stop on that one pretty good. But I'm really excited to start doing that again. You know, it's funny because I, during the last few years with everything that's been going on, I have found myself going back to that time where I'm not able to go to the gym, I'm, you know, my son's home, I don't have that that time to myself while he's at school. And I've I've relapsed into that forgetting about myself every once in a while. And when I do that, I go back to that article I talked about from Rachael Harris and reread it gives myself a little bit of a kick in the rear like oops, give yourself a pep talk and then off you go again. To find that letter, it would just be like, oh, man, like, I don't know. It's just It's huge, isn't it? I'm gonna go on the tie at the time, I didn't realize just how big it was. Yeah. You know, you kind of don't you're not thinking so much at that point. Yeah, yeah. Like you said, you going through the motions and doing all the practical stuff that it's got to be done and good on you. I'm really glad my curiosity got the better of me and I tried to get to her computer. I mean, she's, I'm sure she's you mile and down. She knew I would try and do that. Good on it. I really loved having a chat with you today, Emily and hearing your story. It's such a unique story. I'm sure I'll never speak to anyone again in my life who has done what you've done. Congratulations. It's a massive undertaking, and it's it's incredible. And I'm really looking forward to reading in. Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah. It's been crazy. Yeah. Wow. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Kellie Nobes Australian professional stylist S2 Ep35 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts My guest today is Kellie Nobes, who is a professional stylist and mum of 2 from Mount Gambier , Australia. Kellie knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog What Kel Wore , and support from her local community, Kellie began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. Her big break came when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand Ashlee Lauren’ s New York Fashion Week Runway Show in 2017, dropping everything, including her job, to travel to New York for the event. Since then Kellie has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow Medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kellie's services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots, to the recent launch of her wedding & bridal styling & planning service. We chat about self confidence, self care and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mum. ***This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum*** Connect with Kellie on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kellienobes/ Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Kelly nopes. Kelly is a professional stylist and mum of two from Matt Gambia in South Australia. Kelly knew from a young age that she had a big interest in fashion and dressing up. Through her blog what care wore and support from her local community. Kelly began to share her love of fashion and share her ethos of self care, not just self image. her big break came in 2017 when she was approached to style modern luxury accessories brand, Ashley Lauren, and their New York Fashion Week runway show, dropping everything including her job to travel to New York for the event. Since then, Kelly has styled multiple wives and girlfriends at the 2018 and 2019 AFL Brownlow medal and has worked with various celebrity clients on a range of projects. Kelly Services have evolved over time, from wardrobe audits, styling for events and photoshoots to the recent launch of her new wedding and bridal styling and planning service. Today, we chat about self confidence, self care, and the identity shift she experienced when she became a mom. This episode contains discussion around hyperemesis gravidarum Well, welcome to the podcast today. Kelly, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on today. Yeah, absolutely. You call yourself a professional stylist? Can you share with us what that sort of means and what that entails? Yeah, sure. So originally, when I started my business five years ago, it was specifically fashion styling. So my correct title is fashion stylist and image consultant. But over the progress of the last I guess Yeah, five years I've sort of branched out into lots of different creative avenues and now doing weddings and bridal stuff as well as business styling and social media stuff for businesses so basically kind of Yeah, anything creative or anything visual so I decided to retweet the name and say professional stylist because I felt like that was a bit more of a sort of umbrella that all the categories fell into rather than just Yes specific fashion styling. So yeah, it's been a bit of a crazy ride but now five years later here we are. So going right back to the beginning, have you always been really interested in clothes and you know, fashion and dressing up and that kind of thing? Yeah, so I guess anyone that has been following my business for a while now probably knows the ins and outs that I was always into clothes and dress ups I had a big Dress Up Box loved Yeah, anything fashion based. And it just kind of progressed from a really a really young age. I shared a photo on Instagram not long ago of me that my mom said to me, she was like who would have thought and it was just yeah, the writing was written on the wall. I was there in my dress ups with the these fake nails on and the the neck lace on and yeah, and that was me, I think when I was like, oh gosh, very young, maybe like three or four. So it started from kind of progressed to be something that I didn't really envision but in saying that too, I was never always the best dressed kid or anything like that. It just kind of stemmed from I guess a passion for creative elements and design and all that sort of thing. And yeah, so but it definitely stemmed from a young age and was always something that I was very, very interested in. Yeah, was there any particular sort of trigger for that? Like, were you surrounded by, you know, with your mom or, you know, other women in your life into that kind of thing? Or was it just coming out of a balloon? Yes, and no, I mean, um, you know, like mom always presented herself quite well and that sort of thing. But I someone asked me that. Yeah. Before it was like when was the kind of key moment that stood out in time and I don't think that there's necessarily one but I do have a really early memory of mum bringing in. It was a black painted box with bright colored flowers on it and it had all her old earrings and dress ups. And pretty much from then on that was that was the main main part of my childhood. So I'd say that it stemmed from that blackbox there wasn't necessarily I guess a key person or individual that kind of standard. It was just Yeah, I don't know, I just sort of started from that. And it just kind of grew and grew and grew. And as I got older, I found that I was getting more enjoyment out of it and started taking I guess a bit more of a an interest in a curious curiosity in the business side of things, too. So yeah, I'd say that was probably the key standout memory that I have was definitely that Black Dress Up Box. That's I guess what what started started the journey. Oh, that's cool did you go on to do some formal study in the in that area? Yeah. So originally, when I was in primary school, I wanted to be a fashion designer towards the end of primary school and early high school. And then total honesty, I realized how hard that was going to be and decided that that was not the avenue that I wanted to take. But I originally really enjoyed the retail side of it. So enjoyed the business and retail, learned a lot about that gained a little bit of experience in that. And when I left high school, I knew that uni was never really for me. But I decided to go and study an Advanced Diploma in Fashion and Retail Management in Adelaide. So still moved away started that study. And when I was there doing that there was also a stylist course. And so that really took my fiancee. And at the time I was working at Marian in a retail store. And they were doing shoots and different bits and pieces and stylists were kind of coming and going and that for me it was really quite fascinating that people get a job going and helping people shopping and photo shoots and all that sort of thing. And it just sounded amazing to me. So I kind of first got the idea there. But around that time I was moving home back to Gambia we had a bit of a rough time, we had some health issues with my mom and we we lost a friend and it was just kind of a Yeah, turbulent sort of period. And so they didn't actually offer that offline. So I kind of just gave up there for a little while came home, still worked in the fashion business side of things. And then a couple years later, I found a online course for Yeah, fashion styling and Image Consulting. So I did it offline through an institute in Sydney. And yeah, progressed from there. Yeah, great. How would you describe your own personal style? Really, I always get. I'm always really interested by this question, because I feel like no matter who asks me, and when asks me it changes. But someone asked me, yeah, probably over 12 months ago now. And to me, there was three words that came to mind and it was feminine, edgy and changing. And for me, I guess changing was the standout because for me, it depends on my mood depends on my personal life, it depends on I guess what I'm doing, who I'm with at the time, especially since becoming a mum, my style has changed completely again. Some of it was obviously depending on what was accessible for breastfeeding depending on, you know, what I was going to be doing with the kids that day depended on what my style was like. So I'd say it sort of changes sometimes it's bold and eclectic. And then other times it's quite plain and quite basic. And then there's other times where you'll see me down the street and people will wonder how I got into this job or how I do this job. Because if you can see me some of the time, even at home when I've answered the Dometic Gosh, some people must just be like, Whoa, and I think that's yeah, a big part of my job is like, you know, giving women and understanding that you don't have to look your best all the time and it's not about that it's about learning how to when you want to and building some of that self esteem and confidence because I know for me when I when I look good I feel good and that's just how I feel some people are completely different. But I just Yeah, I guess coming into my business too and learning about my personal style and learning how to, I guess dress to that and as well as learn like the the art of actually styling and how different things create different looks. In the illusions of some things in the ratios and drawing the eye to where I want people to be looking and that sort of thing, so it's quite fascinating. There is quite a lot of education and knowledge that goes behind it. But um, yeah, I think it really depends day to day. My, my style, it changes all the time. So that one that's that's a good answer that makes that makes perfect sense. And I'm also wanted to ask, is there any sort of like, well known people like celebrities or public figures style that you really admire, that you think is really awesome. Yeah. So there's a couple of standout ones. I'm not sure how well that well known there'll be to some people but I know like anyone that knows me or follows me knows I'm obsessed with a lady named Sophie Bell who goes by the Instagram Peppa heart. And I just yeah, love her style. Love her vibe, I guess. Yeah, she's definitely someone that I source a lot of inspiration from. There's a couple of other stylists who I really enjoy their style. And that is Elise Greer in Melbourne and Lauren dimenna in Marion. So I think she's now Lauren Willis. She just got married recently. But it's quite fascinating because she was actually one of the stylists when I was working at General Kenton, Marian. And so I knew her from Marian and I remembered her face. I remembered what she was doing. And then years later, I went to Adelaide fashion festival with ash from a last day or Ashley Lauren, who's my sister in law that does obviously all those amazing headpieces and her brand is amazing. And yeah, we went to a live fashion festival and I saw Lauren, and I was like, You know what, I'm gonna go up and tell her that she was actually yeah, like a bit of the reasoning behind why I got into doing what I was doing. And I'm went up to her and yeah, introduce myself. And she remembered me and now we actually yeah, have quite a bit of contact. And yeah, so she's definitely someone that I sought inspiration from and I just think to like Carrie Bickmore I don't know there's something about her. She can just wear anything ever. And she just always looks amazing. So yeah, that'll be that'll that'll be my life and that's cool. Read your work. You mentioned Ashley, Lauren, you've done. You went to New York for her runway in 2017. That's pretty. That's a pretty big highlight. It's not massive. I don't I don't know how I'll probably ever top that. That was just a bucket list item from Yeah, just way back. And so at the time, when Ash got that opportunity, I'd obviously been involved a little bit in her business. And you know, we helped on photo shoots and bits and pieces. But at the time that she got the invite to New York, I was actually managing Smeagol. So a children's stationery store, like completely total opposite genres in every way. But at the time, I was looking to travel and that was you provide, getting the opportunities to do that. And so yeah, I was doing that. And I'd started my styling business on the side and was just kind of getting it up and running and seeing how I felt about it and learning all about it. And yeah, Ash rang me one night when I was working Thursday, late night shopping at Smeagol, which was I think I just got invited to New York Fashion Week. So I was like, well, let's just like definitely kind of knock out those details and find out if it's real, because it's like, Oh, my God. And then yeah, sure me back. She's like, I think it's legit. And so she was like, oh, like you have to come and she's like, well, you quit your job and come with me. I was like, Um, let me think about that. I rang my boss the next day, I was like, I'm sorry about this opportunity has, you know, popped up and even my boss was like, she's like, look, I don't I don't want to see you go. But absolutely, she's like, you would be stupid to turn that down. So I went on packing lunch boxes one night to a few months later going to New York Fashion Week and styling the models there. So I just always believe that yeah, life always has a path for us when we when we need it or Yeah, believe everything happens for a reason. And that was obviously a big a huge starting point in my business to considering I hadn't been up and running for very long. So that kind of Yeah, snowballed into something. Yeah. Even more amazing as well. So yeah, So, yeah. And I mean, I don't expect you to name drop, but you can if you are you with your style some of the WAGs for the AFL Brownlow, which is pretty. Yeah, yeah. I was actually looking at the photos you sent me today. And I also hadn't thought about it. Do you tell the hair and makeup? How you want? Like it's the whole package? Do you describe everything how you want it done? Like, yeah, you do. Like, it's the whole look sort of thing. Yeah. So it isn't the whole look. So I think that's one thing that people think this styling too is that I just pick the garments or the outfit, but I am involved in the whole process. And that's not just with the brand new clients that's with every client, especially if they're doing event styling and stuff like that, at the end of the day, obviously, it comes down to their preference, they're the one that has to wear it, not me, but I definitely put my kind of spin on it or vision and say, This is what I think that we should go with. And they kind of take it from there. And then it's also about, I guess why using with the hair and makeup artists to, to make sure that they're comfortable in showcasing what they want to showcase because it's about them showing their art to so the styling is my part, the designer is there, part three, they've got to be happy with what they're putting out there. Same with hair and makeup, they're not going to do something that they're not comfortable with doing or they don't like because it's their name on it too. So it really is a whole kind of team effort. There are a lot of people involved. But yeah, with the brand loads too. It's it's, again, there's so much that goes into it that people don't see behind the scenes. It's not just go there on the day, and it's an hour to get like this is like months worth of work in the lead up and you know, picking designs and contacting designers and yeah, working out looks and then like yeah, hair and makeup and accessories sort of thing. So for me to obviously don't live in a major city. So I'm doing all of this via email and phone. When I originally started Kelly beams who was my first ever Brownlow client, I actually flew to Brisbane. And she just had a baby. So originally, we were kind of looking for off the rack because fittings and appointments and all that were quite hard to manage. But then in the end, we ended up securing a designer and getting custom in the end, which turned out amazing. But yeah, it's it's just like a whirlwind. And I don't think I'll ever be able to describe that feeling of hearing my name on the red carpet or, like especially with them. Yeah. Julie Neil, on the second year, like Lucky Neil has obviously become quite well known in the year after he actually won, which is, you know, getting the weight in like riding COVID time. And I just had Yeah, a young, a young baby at home and was in the thick of that. And it's just yeah, I guess sometimes I just thought that's one of those moments where I feel like I'm on the outside looking in and I'm like, wow, that's just little me just would have been like yay. Like, that's, that's always something that I've wanted. So I'm really hoping to get back into a bit of that again this year. And now that I'm back sort of Yeah, working in being involved. I'm really hoping that I can secure some of those red carpet moments again, because they are Yeah, so so much fun and yeah, really amazing to be a part of. You're based in Munich, Gambia. So for those who don't know my Gambia is basically halfway between Adelaide and Melbourne. So we're only like, what do we got 30,000 people, not a huge, huge town. So how do you go there? Like you mentioned the, the phone calls in the Skype and stuff like Do you ever feel like it's a drawback being here? Or do you just think no, but this is where my life is. And you just make it work? It really, it really does go both ways. I mean, I won't lie there would definitely be way more opportunities for me in this city with what I do. And you know, I've kind of made my peace with the fact that that that is how it is. On the other hand, I don't think my business would have become anywhere near as successful if I had launched it in the city. I think watching it here. There wasn't a whole heap of competition at the time when I started. There, I guess. Word of mouth in a small town. I was a really big thing too. And I had already known a lot of people, I come from a big family. My partner or my now husband knows a lot of people in his family and through ash and all of her connections and the people that I've met along the way in my network and friends, that in itself was advertising for me. So had I started in the city, I might not necessarily have had that. So I think it's definitely helped my business and is the benefit. And currently to, although there's not as many opportunities as what there are in the city, there are still ample opportunities, because I am here doing it. And again, I still have those networks and those resources. So it can be a little bit challenging, I guess, especially for some of the clients that I have worked with or want to work with the time and the travel. And now with young kids, it makes it a little bit harder to manage some of those things. But yeah, I mean, at the same time, I've just kind of ran with it. And for now, this is this is where I am, and this is where I want to be. And I'm not ruling out of move in the future. Because I believe, you know, when opportunities arise, you got to go to assess, and I am one of those, I say yes. And I figured the rest out later. So I'm not ruling it out. But at the same time, if I was to be here forever, then that's yeah, that's how it is. And I think that's been part of, especially through COVID, and stuff like that to adapting my business to not just be tunnel in what I offer. I can't just offer one thing. It's about learning. What are the things am I good at? What are my strengths? What other things can I offer? I think there's an opening in the market for different things that I'm kind of working on behind the scenes at the moment. So things like that, I think, yeah, it is in my benefit to be in Merritt, Gambia. It just makes it a little bit more work. Yes, sometimes when working with the people from away or, you know, to we have amazing stores here in Mount Gambia with a lot of amazing local businesses. But sometimes, you know, I don't have a Rundle Mall at my back door, or I don't have a Chadstone shopping center. So sorting things for clients can sometimes be a little bit challenging, too. So like I said, there are pros and cons. Either way, it's hard, but at the same time, yeah, I think it has made my business to be what it is today being in Mount Gambia. Yeah. And I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you talked about the word of mouth that community support, I think people here really get behind each other. Like if someone's gonna crack, they really support and share and tell people and social media, all that sort of stuff. It's a really good community. Yes. Yeah. It's great. We are very lucky to have that community. And And as I've said it like 1000 times, and I say, you know, I'm so grateful for the support that the community has shown, but I don't think I'll ever Yeah, ever get over that. Because to take an idea and run with it is nerve racking. And it's like daunting, and you know, it can be quite challenging. But when you get that bit of a support, I think, too, makes you want to support others in the community as well or their businesses because you know what it's like to get that sorry. I think it's yeah, it's great for everyone. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So turning over to your family side, you've mentioned your children, just in passing a couple of times. Tell us a little bit more about your kids. Yes. So I have Vance, who will be eight months old this week. And I have Ziggy who is turning three in May. So there's 10 days between their birthdays. So two years apart. My Yeah. Crazy boy. I say crazy boys. It's crazy. Crazy. He is He is my whirlwind and Vince is my little chiller so we'll see if it changes but yeah, it's it's been a roller coaster the last couple of years. It's and it's so true. People say it is the hardest thing that you will ever do, but definitely worth it. There are some days I want to pull my hair out by like breakfast time. And then there are other days where you're just like I'm smashing this I've got to get it down. Pardon. Yes. So but it's great. I love it. And I love being a boy mom and yeah, they they definitely keep me entertained, that's for sure. It's funny when I had I've got two boys and I like when I had my second boy Like everyone knew that will be my last child. I remember my, my pop said to me Oh, sorry, you didn't get your girl and I was like, but it's actually okay because I actually love having boys. I never had a brother. So I was totally new to this whole boy world. But it's so I just love it. It's just I know. And I was the same like 100% like total honesty, I was a little bit disappointed when we found out that the second was going to be another boy, I think just because the pregnancy for me was quite different. And I don't know, we both my husband and I had a strong feeling it was going to be a girl. And we never found out the sex was easy, but I was 100% locked in that it was a boy from the get go. And so yeah, I think this time, we were really 5050 on whether we were going to find out or not. And then we decided to, and then that little bit of disappointment lasted and then like for maybe a day and then the next day I was like this is so how it's meant to be. And I'm like it's so true when people say you just grateful to have a happy, healthy baby. And that's exactly what I was happy to have. And I was yeah, I felt very lucky. And now it's like dance was just always meant to meant to be mine. So I can't imagine life without him now. So I'm so glad it turned out the way that it did. Yeah, that's so sweet. I just got goosebumps when you said that. Because we say the same thing. Sorry. I'm getting emotional. We say the same thing available filler. It's like you just can't you just can't imagine not having him. No, you just, you were meant to be in our family law. 100%. That's I know, unlike even with the you like I say, you know, he's he's my crazy one. But I think they are very different personality wise and like, oh my gosh, I'd love to gamble with anything in this world. But he was a hard newborn. And we I don't think I slept for like, it felt like eternity. He wasn't a great sleeper. Wasn't a great feeder. Very busy, but, you know, like, he's still very affectionate at the same time. And now with events, he seems to have, I was worried us like if I'm gonna do that, on top of having a two year old I don't I don't know how things are gonna go. But now like Vince is you know, he sleeps quite well. And he's he's quite relaxed and quite chilled and just happy to take it all in. So I think Yeah, it's true that you just, you know, you deal with it, what you dealt with, but I think Vance knew that I needed a, I needed a good sleep at this time round. To be mine is delivered, delivered the good. I mean, apart from teething, that's to you better in the work yeah. In terms of your work, then were you able to keep working? I guess three pregnancies and like after you had I know you're sort of starting to get back in but after your head Ziggy where you were getting back into work? How that sort of go for you. Yeah, so when I was pregnant with Ziggy, I was diagnosed with hyperemesis. So that is like extreme nausea and vomiting, like, a lot. So it definitely threw a little bit of a spanner in the works. But I was really lucky at that time. Majority of my work was through ash, I was working with ash. So I was very lucky that you know, the days that it was really bad, I was able to head home or work from home and that sort of thing. And we're still doing my business, but I was mindful not to kind of overexert myself. And yeah, he's just kind of monitor but um, it was really funny, because the week before I went to the brown loads, the first time I actually found out I was pregnant that week with Ziggy and I had severe morning sickness. So I was actually styling the girls and want to get the brown light at the crown. I had five girls to do that year, and I was vomiting like, in their rooms. And so I had kind of blinded on nerves at the start. And then in the end, I had to tell them because I was like, they're gonna be like, What is going on with this chair? Because I had like, I'm really sorry, I'm actually pregnant and like violently ill. So that was a journey in itself. But then yeah, that had had that up until about halfway and then had a really enjoyable pregnancy busy, and then had probably about four or five months off when I had zeggen loved that time. You know, adjusting to motherhood. But for me, I love my kids that I know that they're not just me, I need to have a creative outlet and do a bit of work to make me I guess not lose that sense of self identity that was really important to me. I feel like I'd worked so hard to get to that point, I didn't want to then just, you know, lose it all. And that I just felt like it wasn't really in me to do that. So yeah, got back into a bit of work just part time. And then yeah, if anything, business just started booming, which was amazing, but was a bit of an adjustment after, you know, learning how to go back into the workforce as a mom and learning to do things on no sleep and learning about daycare and babysitters and routines and time management, I think was a big one. And then, yeah, when he was about 18 months old, we decided to start trying again. And yeah, I was like really quite lucky that we can say vets, but unfortunately, with his pregnancy came hyperemesis again, and, like double as intense, like, I was so sick it like, Oh, I get emotional talking about it, because I just don't know how I ever function through that. And I don't know, if people really understood how bad it was like mentally and physically. So I ended up before anyone knew I had to take six weeks off of work, because I was just struggling so bad. And it was at the time that I had just opened a new studio and was working out of that. So it was quite challenging. And that lasted the whole pregnancy. So I ended up having to start my maternity leave a lot earlier. And yeah, it just, I don't know, it was just just threw a massive spanner in the works, I think because physique, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna have it to halfway and then I'm going to be fine. And it's going to be smooth sailing. And then when I kind of got to the halfway, I was like, why am I not feeling better yet? Like, this is not kind of what I what I had signed up for. As always, I had amazing clients who were very understanding and who was so good, but it was a real eye opener to me to take care of myself and and look after myself. And unfortunately, that just meant, yeah, putting everything on hold for for quite some time. So yeah, yeah, it was a bit of a learning experience. But just one of those things. You just got to ride ride the waves. And yeah, I've come out the other side. And maybe that's why I got a really good baby, because I had a really bad pregnancy. Maybe that's how it was. Yeah, you are that after all Yeah. I was reading one of your blogs on your website. When you were talking about that early phase after you you had ZTE. And one of the one of the things I wanted to ask you about you, you said that you were eager to have some time off and enjoy the phase. But you also you'd struggle to be fully detached from it all. So was that on your mind already? When you were pregnant? And going into having the baby we thinking, how's this gonna go for me? I'm used to being so creative. You know? How am I gonna feel? You know, it was and it was, it was really quite interesting. Because obviously, I guess until you're in that situation, and you are pregnant, and you are thinking you don't for me, I hadn't really thought about it. Like when we talked about having a baby and starting a family and all of that. It wasn't really something that I considered at that time. But then definitely as the pregnancy kind of Yeah, progressed, and I was sick, and it was changing my plans that was kind of that eye opener to Oh, that's right, like everything is going to change, you know, and how am I going to manage this? And I think for me, and I know like ash can vouch for this. I really did struggle with the thought of being put on hold again because I felt like I'd had to work so hard to get to that point. And those first couple of years were full of such highlights. You know, things like New York and the brown noise and Adelaide fashion festival and, you know, I went to Melbourne fashion festival and that was amazing. And there was all these things that I felt like was such huge highlights to me and then how thing that bit of I guess, I guess a little bit of worry to that, because I'm not relevant at the time or I'm kind of taking that time off. I didn't want to then lose all the business that I'd worked so hard to create and having to put myself out there again and starting started again. And, yeah, yeah, it was, and it was rebuilding, and it was quite challenging to, I guess, yeah, to switch off, but I know, definitely at the start, I did, because I didn't have a choice, I was literally so focused on that baby. And, you know, dealing with the sleep, and like learning how to mother and all of that, and I was really enjoying it too, like I, you know, was definitely had in the back of my mind, you know, a bit of work here, and there would be amazing, but I was really soaked into enjoying that time, because I know that you just don't get that time back. And especially with finance, that was one thing that I work this time around is that I'm not going to have that time back again. And they grow so fast, and just to enjoy it. So I had a lot longer off with Vance and what I did with Ziggy, I think two because I was much busier with the two than what I was just with the one it relearn how to parent again, but this time to two people at once. And yeah, it was definitely something that I Yeah, started, I guess struggling with throughout the pregnancy. But when I felt ready to and I knew that it was manageable. And I think for me, I kind of went into a bit of a downward spiral there. During the pregnancy, you know, we went into just a bit of, like chaos kind of around that time. And I just thought, you know what, I just, I need something, I need something to take my mind off of just motherhood to make me feel like Nana, I genuinely think, you know, it was the best thing I ever did. And everyone's different. Some people are like, Yep, I need to get back to work for the same reason. Other people are like, No, I need to just give motherhood, my all and that's my focus. And I don't think there's a right or a wrong, I think it's about what, what you feel is best for you and what you think is best for your family and your mental health. And I know I said that to my daughter quite a few times. I'm like, you know, it's not just about the baby, it's about me too. And sometimes when I've said that I almost felt a bit selfish, because I felt like oh, you know, like, I should be giving motherhood, my absolute everything. But I read this thing ages ago, and it's always stuck with me. And it's, we expect women to be mothers. And I can't I can't think how it goes. But it's like we want others to be, you know, mothers without working. But then we want like women to be working, you know, not mothering too. So it's, I'll have to find the quote. And it's something you know, and it was just so no matter what we're going to be judged whether we are working mothers, or whether we're stay at home mothers, either way, we're going to be judged. So I think it's about realizing that you just have to brush those those opinions off and just through Yeah, really what is right for you. And I know, I've received comments from both and some people like oh my god, it's amazing that you're getting back into work, and you're doing this and you're doing doing that. And then I've had the reverse it. Oh, but like do you do you think you should spend some more time at home with the kids and all this too? So I'm like, you know, you just take it with a grain of salt and you just got to really do what? What's right for you? Yeah, absolutely. And I'm gonna Yeah, go back. Go back to I've actually printed out your blog post. Yeah, it's actually very inspiring. It's, it's, we expect women to work like they don't have children and to raise children as if they don't work. And it's like, a nutshell. I loved that. You you basically said, I feared if I wanted to work as soon as soon after having a baby I'd be seen as a bad mom. And then I realized something amazing, I can actually do whatever the hell I want. And it doesn't make me a bad person, let alone a bad mom. So I'm actually going to stick that on my little quote. Well, because that honestly you're right, it doesn't who gives a shit? Anybody else thinks because I can make Greg moments I like but no one is in your shoes. No one is in your home. No one is in your hair. Like yeah, yeah. I was just saying this to Josh, my husband the other day, I was like, you know, isn't it funny? All the pressures that we put on ourselves, especially I think it's first time moms. You know, all these expectations that we have of ourselves and have How things are gonna go. And, you know, like, it's, it's so funny because I think of myself as a cool, calm collected person. I know there's definitely times where I'm a stress head, or you know, I won't, I won't say that I'm always cool, calm and collected. But I think going into the pregnancy and into the having a baby. I felt like I was like that. And in some ways, I think that I was and then But then looking back on it now, especially since having Vance, I'm like, Gosh, I wish I knew with my first what I know with my second and all these things that I was stressing about with Ziggy. But now this time around, I'm like, I don't even have time to stress about that. Because it's when you've got the next one, you're just thinking about completely different things. And I was only we've just started like, a few months ago started solids with the answers and example. And I remember thinking, you know, I had this book was again, it was an A, this amount of grain per day and this amount of protein and this amount of fruit veg. Now I'm like with Vance, I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't know any of that. I'm like, if he's hungry, he's hungry. If he wants to worry once more, and yeah, he's fine. If you look at him, he is massive, like, any of that stuff. So yeah, even I think that's why probably too, he's sleeping a bit better. Because I'm like, rat, you're getting wrapped up and you're getting put down. And just all the things that I second guessed myself is, uh, you know, this time around, and I said, you know, I could have been like that was to get the first time around, and it wouldn't have made me a bad mother. But at the time, I kept thinking on, is this how I'm supposed to be doing it? Or? Yeah, and I think because putting that pressure on myself through that time, I just got to a point of, I can't do this to myself anymore. And this is not me. And this is not who I am. And this is not my personality to be that way. And I think once I kind of through some of those, I guess, expectations of myself out the window, I definitely had a lot more of an enjoyable experience of motherhood. So yeah, it's good advice. Honestly, my story's very similar. I will my first I was just always stressed, always worried was, Is this right? How long should he sleep for? Is he getting enough milk, rara and the same thing? Like Alex was really full on like, didn't sleep, well didn't feed. And then there's seven years between my two kids, because I just couldn't be. Me and my siblings, actually their seven year. Yeah, yeah. So when I went back and got digs, I was like cheese. I hope I get a good kid this time. But I did, thank God, but I'm such a different person now. Like, I'm so much more relaxed. And because I've got that perspective, like you said, things that you were really worried about, you're like now or it's just, you know, things are just got to happen, because there's two of them now, and life's busy. I kind of wish this will sound really silly. But I almost wish I had I had twins, because then I wouldn't have had time to stress over all these little things I would have just doing stuff all the time. And just. And I have a really close, beautiful friend who has twins. And they were born like just before. So their birthdays. I think you're covering coming up soon. So they're like, Yeah, five months ahead of Ziggy. And I just remember thinking like when I was pregnant with him being like, and they already had another child. And I was like, oh my god, twins. And I was just like, Oh my God, and then watching her with hundreds. I was like, Oh, my God, like she just made it look so easy. And was so like, again, I felt like there wasn't it could have been different behind the scenes that she wasn't putting that pressure on herself. And it wasn't this and I learned a lot from her. And she was so helpful with with Ziggy when I was like pregnant with dance, and she was like, Oh, I'll take you for a few hours. And like, you're gonna take my child on top of your twins and your other child like a woman and I have to give her a shout out. And thanks, Candace. And she's just like, oh my god, I remember picking it up one day, and she barked at Him and given Him dinner. And he came around and I was just like, oh my god, like if she can do that, and she's I was like, then what am I even worried about? Like, oh, these things I'm like, I think it was the same. She just didn't have time. And she just did what she did. And honestly, they're the most beautiful little boys and I just say idolize Excellent guys. They just absolutely nailing parenthood. Oh, it's lovely to have those people around you, isn't it and select Edit. And for her to have done that. Like, it's like she knows what mums need. She knows the things that a yes, no, you know, yeah, that's awesome. Something for me. After having like, you know, until until you have a baby, you just don't know. You really don't know, unlike I mean, I've got lots of different friendship groups. In my sort of high school friends, I was only the second or third to sort of have have a baby. And then in other groups, you know, there was only a couple that that sort of had their first baby or young kids and when I had to get I remember messaging some of them and being like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. Like, I just I did not know what was involved and like I get it now I get it. And if anything, I think when my friends had babies, it almost gave me that little bit of confidence to be like okay, now I know that this is what they're going through at the same time and you know, hopefully I can drop a meal off here or there, or I can, you know, just send a text and see how they're going or be that ask questions. And I think, yeah, until you've done it, you just you just don't know, like he would eat. And I just instantly I remember like in the first few weeks after having Ziggy, but thinking of all of the people that I knew that had kids and just like having a newfound respect for them and being like, wow, like, I just yeah, it's just a crazy journey. And no one I don't think no matter what anyone says, either or just will not prepare you for what you're in for, especially in those first, you know, especially with the first time around and in those first few months of learning. And, you know, and dealing with the emotions, I think was a big one like God, like how can you love something so much? And yeah, I felt like I was not an emotional person. And then I think since having kids that's just gone out the window. And now I'm just emotional over everything. I'm not emotional, and I will just cry over something so stupid, and I'm okay. Yeah, cuz it definitely changed have changed that personality trait in me. Oh, sweet. But you're right. It wouldn't. It doesn't matter how much how many people try and prepare you for being a mother or a father. It's like, because your brain doesn't even go there. Like you don't believe them. Like, don't believe them when they say you won't get sleep. Yeah. Okay, that's nice. Like you just don't believe. I remember specifically one night with ZTE. I don't even know at the surface. I slept on the couch for six weeks when I had ZTE. Like I couldn't even sleep in the same room as my husband cuz he was getting up and going to work and like, we were just up all night. So it was trying to make sure that he got rest. And I remember sitting out on the couch one night and just like, I remember patting again, I was so delirious, I think I'd slept like an hour in like, it felt like a week. But it was probably like a day or two. I remember having him and being like, Oh, I remember when people said that I would be tired. But like I didn't understand to the extent of lack Watch out. And I remember that patting him on the back as I was half like micro sleeping like, this isn't tired. This like, this is not even tired. This is like pure exhaustion and like delirium. And until you know, I pick up people tried to warn me when I was like, yeah, no lesson until you're going through it. You just or when people say that you Yeah, that intense love or like imagining that God forbid anything happened to them. And I just remember there's been times where I've worked myself to tears, thinking, oh my gosh, if anything ever happened, like, I hope they know how much I love them. And you know, it's just, it's just a whirlwind, all the emotions, all the feelings, it's incredible. So you touched briefly on they talked about identity. So it's obviously very important to you to see that you're not just and I don't want to say just a man because you never, I'm doing air quotes. But it's yeah, it's important to you to be Kelly to be a wife to be the sister or, you know, a daughter that it's like, mum doesn't consume everything of your being. Yeah, it can't be just just me, I think, I think too, because part of that probably stemmed from, in, in my, I guess, business or my job, working with women and trying to push them to understand the same thing. And even before I had kids, a lot of the clients that I had were young mothers. And so you know, I was understanding but again until I'd been through it myself, I wasn't you know, I didn't understand fully what what they were experiencing what I was trying to teach them about their self worth and self esteem. And a lot of them were coming to me being like well, you know, we just We've just lost our way and we just don't have that confidence that about ourselves and we're just yeah, like a little bit lost and I was I guess for me it was good because I was an outside source. I wasn't you know, a sister or a friend or I was someone completely disconnected coming in and teaching them like you know, you are valuable and you know, it doesn't make you shallow to make you want to sell feel good and why not find this self identity and learn that it doesn't make them a bad person to yet take care of yourself. doing things for yourself or to re learn that for myself and I became a mom, it was like, I've done this for years. And now I'm doing it's like, I need to remember to hang on a minute. Yeah, it's okay for me to do things. And yeah, I think it was a really kind of useful tool, entering motherhood, after learning about all of this stuff. Because it kind of Yeah, gave me the stepping stones to learn for myself on that journey. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think what I'm finding talking to moms throughout this project is everyone needs something to fill them up. Like everyone needs something that meets their needs. Because mums are so busy looking after everybody else all day long. And, you know, fixing this and doing that and finding socks and cooking meals, that's fine. But then at the end of the day, there has to be something just for you. You know, it's just Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you shouldn't feel guilty for that. Like, there's no reason to, to feel bad for that, you know? Yeah. And I remember Yeah, I think I said in that blog, I was like, you know, I was worried about, you know, being perceived as a bad mother. And I was like, if anything, it made me a better mother. It made me more patient and tolerant when I was had that bit of something for me, and I knew it made me a better parent to do that, then not to have that. So, yeah, for me, yeah. They've made me feel better within myself, which in turn, are good. I project that onto my kids in feeling good at second. And you know, it is a prime example today. You know, boy jumped on this. And you know, this. I have one of these days, I think the heat has just gotten to everyone I know, it's gotten to me, and we've had a stressful couple of days with everything that's been going on. And the kids haven't been sleeping super amazing. So I think after having such a good run, and then having sleep problems week or so, patient is not where where is I'm like, Ziggy's having meltdowns, university being and I started noticing all of this, and I had yesterday I was like, Alright, I've got to go and do something like for me or do something that I think it's going to make me feel better. And I am working with a brighter moment. And so for me, it created a bit of that stuff. So sometimes, you know, self care isn't just going and taking 20 minutes alone, sometimes it can come in many different forms. It could be surgically, you know, a walk or something like that. But for me, that creative outlet is almost a bit of my self care. Yeah. So I think it's about learning to Yes, what it is that makes you feel better, or what you get enjoyment out of and making time for that, because I'm definitely a candidate that in the last few days, you know, it's a domino effect when I'm stressed it shows in my children. Yeah, absolutely. I can definitely relate to that. It's just, yeah. When Mom's not happy, no one's happy. Exactly. My husband watch for that, too. I see him he's a he's been very patient. Tonight, I ask what sort of, if you've got anything coming up, you want to share about things you're working on? Or? I mean, I'm not asking you to, you know, give away any secret stuff. But have you got anything you wanted to share with the listeners? So when I was introduced, last year, I was so sorry, yeah, last year, in the year before, gosh, it feels like it's almost like a lifetime ago now. I started watching weddings, and like wedding planning and brides. I've worked on a few weddings since then. But I'm actually currently in the process of a complete rebrand and overhaul to focus a lot more on that. So that'll be a complete separate side my business now, which is really exciting. And I'm also currently in the process of creating a new little workspace. So that's been Yeah, a little bit exciting. And it's a slow process, but where we're getting there. So even though Brendan started one of those things, like I have an idea and kind of find time to make that idea work and put the things into that idea can sometimes take a little while. But yeah, definitely. There's a lot of things at the moment. So yeah, if anyone that follows my page or you know, keeps up to date, just stay tuned, because it's all coming about very soon. Well, that's so exciting. That's it So it's like, it's been a real sort of, you know, the, over the last few years like this growth and development for you that you've sort of found things that you love doing. And it's like you've realized there doesn't have to be limits to what you can offer people, like it's just kept building and building. That's so great. learning on the job, you know, I originally started out just making wardrobe audits for people. And as much as I love that my business has progressed a lot more on top of that, and, you know, just I really, it was, was really quite interesting, because last year, I hit, you know, a milestone of how many clients I'd had, and going back through those clients, and actually looking at the different things that I had done in that time. And, you know, I'll always remember those first few clients that I work with, and the things that I'm working on now. It just, yeah, it's it really has evolved into something a lot more than I ever envisioned, and the things that I was doing then to what I'm doing now, you know, working with businesses for their uniforms, and like family shoots, and maternity shoots and stuff like that, what I was doing was event based, as well. And I think it's, you know, even things now that I'm offering digitally that I wasn't able to do beforehand. So it is nice to kind of, I think it keeps exciting to I'm one of those I like a bit of a challenge. And I like you know, having having things happening. So it is really good. There's a lot of, you know, different avenues, you know, in the short term, but again, that doesn't necessarily what I can do in a long term. I'm, you know, it's one of those things, I have all these grand ideas that just believe in the time everything, so I'll be, you know, styling the Oscars or something like that in no time. So stay tuned for that. We'll make sure that we're when we hear your name on the road. We can manifest it out there. Oh, absolutely. That's it. Thanks so much for coming on. Kelly. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for being a part of it. Thank you for having me. Having a chat. Yeah, it's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Eliza Hull Australian musician, author and disability advocate S3 Ep84 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts It is my great pleasure to welcome Eliza Hull to the podcast. Eliza is a musician, writer, speaker and disability advocate, and a mum of 2 from regional Victoria, Australia. Eliza is an award winning musician. Her music has been described as ‘stirring, captivating and heartfelt’ She is regularly played on radio nationally and internationally including on ABC, RN, BBC, double j and triple j. She recently performed her new song Running Underwater on ABC’S Q & A and performed at SXSW in Austin, Texas + Big Sound Festival. Her songs are also featured in ABC KIDS TV show ‘And Then Something Changed,’ ABC ‘The Heights’ and American TV shows ‘Awkward, ‘Teen Wolf’ and ‘Saving Hope.’ Recently Eliza was awarded the Music Victoria ‘Amplify’ Award, the APRA mentorship for women in music, the National Leadership Award from the Australia Council + Arts Access Australia + The Women In Music Award. Eliza’s debut EP, Dawn, came out in 2012, and showcased her eclectic approach to sound. Later in the year, Eliza recorded her 2nd ep, The Ghosts You Never Catch, which is full of the intensity, emotion, ad story telling which characterises her music. Eliza has her fifth studio record coming out soon, which will feature ‘Here they come’ and ‘Running Underwater.’ Eliza is making change in the music industry. The time is now for greater representation of disabled musicians, and Eliza is a huge part of this movement. As an author Eliza has been involved in 3 books, Come Over To My House is a picture book that explores the home lives of children + parents who are Deaf or disabled. Eliza is the editor and creator of ‘ We’ve Got This – Stories by Disabled Parents’ is the stories of 25 disabled parents from around Australia. The book was developed after a very successful podcast series on ABC's Radio National Eliza is a contributor to Growing Up Disabled in Australia. - One in 5 Australians has a disability, and disability presents itself in many ways. Yet disabled people are still underrepresented in the media + in literature. In the book compiled by writer + appearance activist Carly Findlay OAM, more than 40 writers with a disability or chronic illness share their stories, in their own words. Eliza is a panellist and speaker and has spoken at the Human Rights Convention ‘Free and Equal,’ for the NDIS and the Changes Music Conference. Eliza was a panellist on ABC’s Q&A. Eliza is also an access consultant for live music venues and organisations. Eliza - Website Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Eliza. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a mom would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to another episode. It really is so great to have you. Thank you for joining me. It's my great pleasure to welcome Eliza Hall to the podcast this week. Eliza is a musician, a writer, a speaker and a disability advocate and a mum of two from regional Victoria in Australia. Eliza is an award winning musician her music has been described as staring captivating and heartfelt. She's regularly played on radio around Australia and internationally, including on the ABC Radio National the BBC Double J and Triple J. She recently performed her new song running underwater on a BCS q&a TV show and performed at SX SW in Austin, Texas and big sound festival to showcase and present a panel on accessibility. Eliza songs are also featured in ABC Kids TV show, and then something changed ABCs The heights and American TV shows awkward Teen Wolf and saving hope. Recently Eliza was awarded the music Australia amplify award the AHPRA mentorship from women in music, the National Leadership Award from the Australia Council and Art Access Australia and the Women in Music Award. Eliza his debut EP dawn came out in 2012 and showcased her eclectic approach to sound. Later in that same year. Eliza recorded her second EP The ghosts you never catch which is full of the intensity, emotion and storytelling which characterizes Eliza his music. Eliza has a fifth studio record coming out very soon, which will feature here they come and running underwater. Eliza is making change in the music industry. The time is now for greater representation of disabled musicians and Eliza is a huge part of this movement. As an author Eliza has been involved in three books. Come over to my house with Australian author Sally Wilson is a picture book that explores the home lives of children and parents who are deaf or disabled. She's the editor and creator of we've got this stories by Disabled Parents. It features 25 stories from Disabled Parents from around Australia. And the book was developed after a very successful podcast series on ABCs Radio National. One in five Australians has a disability and disability presents itself in many ways. Yet disabled people are still underrepresented in the media and in literature. Eliza was a contributor to growing up disabled in Australia. The book compiled by writer and appearance activist Carly Findlay oh am and in the book more than 40 writers with a disability or chronic illness share their stories in their own words. Eliza is also a panelist and speaker and a spoken at the Human Rights Convention free and equal for the NDIS Brunswick Music Festival, the wheeler Center and the changes Music Conference. Eliza was a panelist on ABCs q&a TV show, and she's also an access consultant for live music venues and organizations. I sincerely hope you'll be inspired by Eliza to make positive changes in your own workspace, community or perhaps even your own mindset. The music you'll hear today is Eliza is owned. And you can find more by going to her website Eliza whole.com Or I've placed a link in the show notes. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and thank you again for tuning in. Oh EB legs will now move. It's just the way it's gonna be. Maybe I don't feed Why don't you want me to be all these cookie cutter version? not doing me any welcome alive. It is such a pleasure to meet you and to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. I gotta admit, I've been a fan of your music for quite a while you've got incredible voice it reminds me like of a bit like Janis Joplin with that sort of growly kind of thing you got going on. Thank you so much. He actually has a big influence in what I'm actually so nice to hear. So, we're about to you in Victoria. So I live in regional Victoria in Castlemaine. Yeah, right. Yep. How many is in Castlemaine? Is that like a big one? No, no, I don't know the exact figures. And I know that they're constantly changing. We're getting a lot of people coming to Castlemaine from Melbourne, especially during COVID, which we still are in but, you know, a little bit posted, I guess. And we're still getting that real influx of people, especially from the northern suburbs of Melbourne, moving to Castlemaine. It's about an hour and 20 minutes down the freeway and you can get an express train for an hour to Melbourne as well. So it's quite close to Melbourne, but also has the real qualities that a regional town has. So it's really beautiful. Yeah, that's nice. I just came back from a week in Ballarat. Which I don't think you're further north. I think that's right. Yes, awesome signs actually. And we have this like in South Australia, we say Castle, we don't say castle, but my mum's Victorian. So she often just reminded me straightaway when I saw this a lot. That's quite funny. So as I said, You're a singer, but you're also an author, and you're a disability advocate having disability yourself, and you do speaking. So what sort of came first for you to was it the writing or the music that that you sort of got into first. So the music came first. It was kind of the deal with my parents. So I wouldn't be able to leave the home my hometown of Albury Wodonga unless I had a uni degree to go to. And so I enrolled into a Bachelor of Communication in journalism, which I'm really glad I did. Because in the end, I've really used those skills anyhow. But I kept just deferring the course and just joining various bands and playing lots of shows, because that was really what was calling me was singing and music. I really wanted to just be a singer. And so yeah, really from the age of 18. That's what I've done. And I've done lots of various projects as a singer and performer. But now, I've gotten into more of the writing space. So I started by putting out a parenting anthology called we've got this, which is about Disabled Parenting. And I shared my own story and interviewed various other parents. And they also wrote their own stories. And then I've just completed an international version of that so with British and American and Canadian writers and interviewed those people over there, which will come out in February of this year. And then yeah, I've worked worked on a children's book, as well with Sally Ripon, who is a good friend of mine, and also lives in Castlemaine. And it was just my idea to create a book that represented various families with disability in a way that was authentic and fun and lively. And she was really on board with the idea and it was very collaborative working with Sally. I think people often question how can you co write a book with somebody but it really is a co write with Sally, because we sit around a table, we share our ideas, we go back and forth. You know, she writes a bit then I write a bit then we go, you know, so it was very collaborative and such an enjoyable process that we're working on our second book now. Oh, great. I actually had Sally on my podcast last year, and she was talking about your book, come over to my house and I thought it was great because I work in Early childhood education, and there's not very many books, I wouldn't say there's hardly any if there, if any, that use the language and make people aware of, of all the different ways families can exist and homes can exist, and to also make, to make parents aware of Yeah, of that language so that then they can educate their children, and they can be educated themselves on appropriate ways to talk about different families, which I thought was fantastic. And it's good, you know, for educators to to have the right tools to be able to communicate with children. So just find the kids kid to know everything, and they're so clever. And then then adults get their get their views into the kids heads, and they all change and it's terrible. It's so true. Can you tell us what the next book is about? Or is it a bit of a sacred at this stage? It's about the social model of disability really. So the social the social model is that the world is disabling. So that really was like a real aha moment for me when I learned the social model. So it made me think about what how is the world disabling. For instance, when I arrive at a building, and because I have a physical disability, it means if there's stairs up into that building, that's a building I can't get into. Whereas if there was a ramp up into a building, I would feel less disabled by my environment. And that really was like, Oh, wow, like, it's not up to me to change and that I don't need to be fixed. And you know, I don't have a problem and a deficit, it's actually what if we change the world to be more accessible, change the world to be more inclusive. And, you know, that can be lots of different reasons, reasons, ways. For instance, having an Auslan interpreter for people that are deaf, or having image descriptions for people that are blind, that's all the way that we can change the world to be more inclusive. So the children's book is really in a way a explainer of how we can change the world. And it's has two characters, a disabled child and a non disabled child. And it happens due to the disabled child inviting, so rather than non disabled child inviting the disabled child over for a play, and realizing that their house isn't accessible, and so feeling really bad about that, and not talking to the child for lunchtime, because they feel so embarrassed and bad about it. And then they then go to the playground, they decide that that's the best way to meet after school and the playgrounds inaccessible as well for this wheelchair, wheelchair user. And so that's when they decide that they're going to build an accessible world together. And they do that in a really beautiful way. And I guess, yeah, just to show how we can just change the world and we don't need to change the person. Hmm, that's a that's a really powerful message. That social model of disability that I had, I'd never heard it described that way. And when I've, I think it was Carly Finley that I first heard it said three and I just thought, ah, like, it's obvious, it makes so much sense. But why is our world reluctant to do this? Like, why do we have to only cater for particular people? How about okay, you know, that's fantastic. You're doing that. Because like I said, like the kids that are amazing, and get the kids keep to keep doing what they want to do, the world will change and Exactly, exactly, be fantastic. Yeah. And I think you know, the kids are the future so that I feel like it's so important that that's where we start really with changing the way the world sees disability. That brings me to a song that you performed on q&a. I'm not sure when that was actually when was that? A good question. So it's like, what year is it? It was the end of 2021. Yeah, right. And I actually watched that again this morning, because I remember when I first saw it for the first time, and it was just had me in tears, and had me in tears again this morning. But that's, that's literally, that's the description of how it feels to try and fit into a world that doesn't include you. And that sounds a horrible thing to say, but it's true, isn't it? Yeah, I feel like that that analogy of running underwater was just a way to say how heavy it can feel at times when you feel really good. A friend. But not only different when you feel like you don't belong really, and you don't feel included in a world and you feel discriminated against. And yeah, that's when it becomes really hard. I think that when I did the parenting book, we've got this it really showed that the greatest obstacles parents with disability face, it's not what happens inside the home. It's actually what happens outside the home where you face medical discrimination or people staring or inaccessible, inaccessible spaces. And yeah, so I think that it's really up to society to start in a recognizing that we are 20% of the population and that we deserve to include and be included in the world. Absolutely, yes. from you I remember when I was five, they told me the podcasts that you did, we've got this did that come after the book was that before? So it was always an idea, my idea that it should be a book, first and foremost, that was because really, it was just that I wanted a book like this to exist when I was deciding to become a parent. And I couldn't find anything out there, there was absolutely nothing. And so luckily, at that time, I saw that the ABC was offering scholarships for regional people with disability. And so I applied with the idea to make a series on parenting with disability and got chosen, which was great. And that then became, we've got this after the audio series went so well. I then pitched the idea as a book, but it was always my idea that it would be a book. So that was great. That happened. That's wonderful. Now Good on you. So you mentioned about being a parent, How many children do you have? So I've got two children. One is seven, and one is to Oh, awesome. In the midst of full on parenting, young children, yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I love that that age gap. I've got seven years between my two. Fun fun times, I've got seven and almost 15. And it's just you just feel like, I don't know, you read two worlds at once. You feel like that time is absolutely on learner and a seven year old Yeah. Have you found then that the children have fit into your career, I guess doing your music and doing your writing? Did that sort of take a break at all when you had two kids? Or was that something that you used to sort of keep going, I suppose and keep your identity while you became a mom? Yeah, I haven't. I haven't really stopped to think the first pregnancy and birth. So that was my daughter, Isabel. I think I took a bit more time off, I gave myself that break, after giving birth, I might have had nine or 10 months. I mean, there's not even that much. I've just doing absolutely nothing. But then started to make more music and released my album at that time. So that was already recorded. So record the last song when I found out I was pregnant. So I kind of felt like I needed to get that out anyway. And then with Archie who's you know, two and a half now. I took maybe six months off, and then just kept going. And I guess the way it's fitted in my life is that because I don't really worked for a person. I'm kind of freelancing with my music and my speaking engagements. And my writing. It just kind of fits around them. And that's really worked really well. So for instance, when he naps for the two hours in the day, I just get a lot done. And I think having that constraint of time has actually been really beneficial for me because it's like, Okay, two hours go. And then I took 10 I also work the other two hours of the night in the night. But yeah, sometimes it can be challenging, and we haven't used any childcare up until this point, but that's because I've got such an incredible mother in law. So at any time, I'll be able to say can you come stay we've got a really great luckily When we bought our house is a guest house at the back of the house. So she, she gets to be in her own space and come and stay. And she'll do that anytime I go away. Yeah, that's awesome having that support massive, isn't it? I wouldn't be able to do what I do without her. Yeah, yeah, I can definitely relate to that. I mean, my family here. I was thinking about that the other day, like, the times when you've got gigs on at night and or at rehearsals or anything, like, just how would you do it? If you didn't have help? Like, you just couldn't? Exactly just take for granted sometimes I think that I don't know, it's pretty important. Something I like to talk to all my guests about is this concept of mum guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because I think it's a I don't like the word, because I hate the word guilt. But have you got any thoughts about that? Well, yeah, man, it's a huge thing. For me. I think for me, it was, it's one of my way I feel it the most. So I really don't like the feeling when I'm at an airport or in a different city. And I see a mother with a child. It just like, Yeah, I'm just like, why am I not that mother? Why am I here? Why am I doing this? Like it? Just yeah, it feeds into that guilt can be really a horrible feeling. And then you kind of realize that, who knows what that mother's feeling in that moment? And maybe, No, tomorrow, she'll be going on a trip or, you know, I guess it just for some reason, you always think that you are doing the wrong thing. And I guess what I've realized is when I'm at home, I'm sometimes feeling like, Oh, I really want to do some work. And then when I'm working, I really want to be at home. I think that ultimately, being a mother makes you really feel very divided. Yeah, so it's just a constant. And I went to America in March last year, that was a big thing to go for. I went for 11 days without the kids and yeah, that was really very tricky. And only because it was such an incredible opportunity and that I had got the funding to go did I go? But they were actually fine. It was me that struggled the most. Always away. Yeah, so I'm off to the UK in May this year for a tour for the month of May and I've decided we're all going to they're gonna go as a family this time. Just make a trip of it and really enjoy it. No good on Yeah, yeah. I that it's very common thing. People talk about this. This when you when you're doing your work, or doing your art or creativity, you feel bad, because you're not with the kids. But then when you're with the kids, you think Oh geez, I really want to be guided to do that. Constantly constant battle in your head isn't absolutely yeah, thanks even half and then I say is it there's no answer to it. You just got to say different air we deal with it say call me a silver timer. Wrong. pill has becoming a meme changed? Or has it changed the way that you write your music? Approaching music? Yeah, I think that is kind of what I was saying before. The fact that when you have time constraints, you generally you cannot you can either go two ways for somebody, it could be that, that in the end is like you know, you can't be creative because you feel like you're under the pressure. But for me, it's worked really as an advantage. Because it's given me that kind of like, okay, you can't just sit here and the piano for a day anymore. And you know, maybe think of a verse, you really got to like, get it out. And so I think that that's what's helped me the most. I've also just wanted to do it really right this time. So for this next record that I'm about to put out, which has running running underwater on it, that I did on q&a, I just made sure that it was really well executed and like I looked into every lyric I can just I guess it was a bit more want to do if I'm going to be away from my kids, I'm going to leave the house and spend all that time and spend all that financial money into into my music, that I really should be putting everything into it and doing it really? Right. So I guess that's what has led to that. Whereas, perhaps before children, I just would have been like, that's fine. Like, you know, let's just experiment. Whereas now, it's very, yeah, I don't know, I guess what the word is just. It's, it's has to be a bit more professional, probably. Ultimately. I was thinking the other day, when I make my music, I always think it might be the last guy that I get to do something. Because now that I have two children, and I'm getting older, you know, so I feel like that, that I take, I have that sort of mentality, because I feel like I might not get another 10 If you know what I mean, it's good to do this, because I've always wanted to do this. I've always wanted to put this into songs I've got to do at this time, because I'll never do which sort of makes you feel old. Me I'm saying? No, I really relate to that. Absolutely. Waking up with a natural, dry yo. Promise one day do you find that you need your music and your creativity to keep you going as mum to have that outlet? is really important for you? Yeah, yeah, I think it. I mean, I feel like mothering is creative, though, as well. I think being you know, doing craft activities, or even just the way that they look at the world is really creative. And then we spent almost half the day looking at the clouds making images from the clouds the other day, and I was like, wow, we really are, they really can't be present vervain in the moment. And so I find mother mothering creative just like I find cooking creative. But I think you know, that outlet of singing for me is just something that I just always wanted to do and have always really done since I was little. And it's just an outlet. It's like a you know, if you're like, feeling like emotional or if you're feeling heightened, or you just it just expressing that enables me to feel like I'm getting it out. So what inspires you when you write your lyrics and write your songs, your obviously your, your, your disability and your place in the world do you do kids come through as well in your writing? Not Yeah, no, not really. And actually, that's a lie. The record that I released last, how we disappeared was really about moving away from Melbourne away from the city and there was one song on there that's called Valentine. And that was because my daughter was born on Valentine's Day. It actually kind of seems like a bit of a love song that you could think it was about a relationship but yeah, it's about her. So yeah, I haven't read a song about my son yet but maybe one day this particular record that's about to come out Yeah, it doesn't touch on the kids at all it's about Yeah, like unraveling my you know my true self being authentic identity my disability Yeah, just kind of things from the past as well. How old were you when you started writing? I got given a piano luckily, well, unlucky unlucky and that somebody passed away, but lucky and that they left it for me. When they did in there. They wanted somebody that was wanting to be a musician to take it. And that was I think when I was about 14, and so when the day that arrived, I sat on it and wrote my first song. It just kind of poured out of me. Yeah, and I look back at that time because I'm like, wow, the chords for that song not really quite advanced, to be honest. Maybe not so much theoretically. But it was just like, you know, angsty song that I wrote About heartbreak. Hmm, we've very close to the sinuses getting person you can you can tell me if this is appropriate, the person that passed away to have the PR, did you have a connection with them at all? No, not at all. So that's why I didn't I might have felt a bit disconnected by that. But um, it was actually just my father owned a business screen printing business and his graphic designer. That was his mother. Okay, so it was really just like a Yeah, connection to the family. And is he's a piano because your daughter is a musician. Oh, that's nice. That got got passed down. And yeah, it's still my piano. Yes. I've still got it. In the studio outside. And yeah, it's great. I still play. Well, that's nice. Do your kids play music at all really? Interested in it? Yeah. So my daughter's learning piano and we just got her a keyboard for Christmas this year. And yeah, she's absolutely loves it. So that wasn't something I pushed. Or it was like, you know, she does karate she does piano she does. So because it was like, these are this is on offer. What would you like to do? And we always check in and say, so want to go there? Because we can stop that. But not absolutely loves them. But I don't want to be one of I guess I didn't want to be the one that pushes her to do to be to do what I do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can relate to that. I tried for many years to get my son to I put didn't push him. I just say, Oh, do you want me to show you something on the piano? Or do you want me to teach your song or any my husband plays? Guitar? Do you wanna play dad's guitar? No. And then he picked up the recorder, which turned into the bagpipes. Oh, wow, there you go. And I have a feeling that he might deliberately pick something that neither myself or my husband knew anything about. So we couldn't do it. It's not like, I think as a as a you know, a musical parent you like you want your kid to experience it. Because you know how great it is, you know, you know how much you love it and how much it gives you. And you know, it's not about being good at something. I think you just want them to experience how amazing it can be. Yeah, so I was very pleased when he decided to play something. Even though it's actually, in monastery, it's one of those instruments, you just when he plays it, sometimes you will take it out in public, and people just love it. Like they just people love hearing it. You know, when it's played? Well, it's listening to the art of being a mom, with my mum, Alison Newman. So with your, with your music and your writing, do you sort of want your kids to see what you're doing? As a Liza, sort of, in addition to what they see as mum, like, is that important to you? That they they see that you? You do things other than mother? Yeah, I think so. I think that. Yeah, I think it kind of comes as a surprise in a way when they finally realize that you are an individual. I think that my son is two and a half he has no idea that I've had any individual hope for him at the moment. But yeah, it's about my daughter. I feel like she's starting to really get it. And it's yeah, it's really beautiful to for her just to witness my you know, songwriting process and the shows to come to the shows and see what I do and yeah, and in regards to your advocacy, is that important that the kids see that that you're really trying to create a world for everybody, but it's inclusive space. Yeah, I'd almost say that's more important actually. Yeah, I think that disability is is really ingrained in this home the word what it means how we treat people. So I feel really hopeful that both my kids Archie and Isabel will be just really inclusive children and I've already shown me that Yeah, I think they just like they care really ultimately about me and yeah, they just see disability as something that would have to be celebrated and not feared and yeah, I can really see that already playing. Now that's awesome. So won't do that. And I wanted to ask you do because I learned this with Sally, I must admit, I'm very naive when it comes to the world of inclusivity. And how to how to engage with people on how they like to be referred to do you like to say you have a disability or you're a person with a disability? Yeah, I mean, any, any of those. Generally say I'm a disabled person or person with disability, disabled. So that's like identity first language. So, basically, you know, for a long time, so for instance, 80s, there was a lot of words that we use instead of disability, for instance. differently, you know, I guess even just differently abled, or handicapped. There are a lot of worse terminology and some disability slurs that were used. And so people within the disability advocacy space, were fighting for people first language to remind people that disabled people were people, because we were being called so many other things. But now we're moving into a space where we don't feel we need to remind people that we're people, you don't need to say, people with disabilities just to say disabled person is that, you know, I'm proud of my disability, I'm proud of the identity. And I don't have to remind you that I'm a person. And if by, you know, saying that I'm disabled, you can see the barriers that we need to change as well. So yeah, I feel like that's, you know, it took a little while for me to say disabled person, because I just realized that I was actually holding on to a lot of ableism, around disability, I was thinking that disability was a bad word or a negative word, or that it meant that you were less than that it was something that I had really had to work through and realize that that was just because that's what I'd been shown time again, in media, or I've been taught at school, and just by people's attitudes, so it's always you know, what's wrong with you? Instead of, you know, like, can you tell me about your disability, it's always like, that kind of perceived as, as a negative, people will often say how sorry they are and how bad they feel that I, you know, I'm disabled, whereas I just feel like that actually, in the end makes me just feel worse about myself. Like, I think it's more like, I feel terrible that you live in an inclusive sorry, rather, that you live in an inaccessible world. Like I think that that's what our we need to phrase it. Like, when we really look at the world, I mean, diversity in all its forms is really what makes the world I think, a great place to live in. We wouldn't want everyone to be the same. Yeah, it's interesting that and, and this is so true in so many sectors like schooling and military, anything that I can think of right now, but everywhere in, in sort of white male culture is things have got to be the same because that's easy and you can control it, I suppose. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's very yeah my into deep, biggest Abadi projections, I'm all about sponsors, reactions and feelings this. So when you're growing up, like you said, your dad had the screen printing business, were you sort of inspired by that, to think that you could, if you want to sing, you could see, you know, people can have their own plumbing business, but you know, you don't have to work someone else or anything like that. Like was that? Um, yeah, I think maybe like seeing that. I also my mom was a drama teacher at school. So I think, you know, having her be so creative, and I was actually her student at it in year 11. So I think you're being in her classroom and seeing the way that she made art and drama, really fun and enjoyable, and you can get paid to do that. Yeah, so I think I got those kinds of skills from her. But I think they ultimately, they were being realistic as well in the way that they sort of singing for me. They saw it as something that really we're proud of It may and but but ultimately maybe something that would have to be a hobby, and I think I'll probably surprise them that as to how much I've just a kept the determination and the need going but also just how well it's done in many ways. Yeah, good on you. Because that is something that a lot of people I have on the show, they set out, like as you know, teenager, high school, they're going to make art their career. And then their parents might say, oh, you know, you know, might not pay the bills, you know, get a real job, that sort of mentality. And then in their sort of midlife of maybe after they've had kids, they go back to that creativity. And it's like, I don't care so much, you know, I mean, obviously, money is important. But, you know, enjoying yourself in your life is pretty important as well, exactly, I think, you know, you realize that as time goes on, like, how, you know, let's just be happy, instead of feeling like we have to do certain things. And I think I went to a, it was actually by a publisher, and they were looking ahead at the future generations. And I think more and more from what they're predicting, we will see young people choosing what they love instead of what they think they need to do. And it'll be workplaces that are based on what your talents are, instead of, again, what you think you need to do, or you think you should do. I love that. It gives you hope for the future, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. People. Yeah, because that's all I know, my son, yours a little bit younger, but my son's at the point where he's got to start choosing subjects for year 11 and 12, for what he wants to do when he leaves school. And I was like, might just pick stuff that you enjoy, like, know what they want to do like it until I was 40. Something to find a career that I really love. So, thankfully, I feel like we do better at the subjects that we love freely. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You got to be passionate about things. And yeah, I think that's why I didn't do very well at maps, because my brain doesn't work that way. But I just had no interest in it. That's my friend at all. Oh, god. Yeah, it's funny. Dr. B, lives one. When you go over overseas in May, is that for the international version of the book? Or is that further? Yeah, I think that's like tying that in, as well as doing a tour. So I'm doing shows. Yeah. All through much. About not much. May. Yeah. All around the UK. Yeah. So lots of different theaters and also at The Great Escape festival. Yeah, cool. But yeah, that'd be incredible. Well, I'll put some links in the show notes, because I do have international listeners. So if anyone in the neck of the woods Yeah, I'd highly recommend. Like, just say, thank you. You're pretty awesome. Is there anything else you wanted to share before I let you go? No, I think we touched on everything. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Natalie Harrison Australian jewellery designer S3 Ep89 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This week I welcome Natalie Harrison to the show, Natalie is a jewellery designer and maker from Nairne, South Australia, and she's a mum of 1, soon to be of 2. After finishing school, Natalie wasn't 100% sure what career to pursue, so she went into social work, and after a period of this found her passion in design, and went on to study Interior Architecture and Interior Design. From this she gained a job in the industry and for many years she was incredibly driven, in the toxic culture of the industry. 2.5 years ago Natalie left and she now works 4 days a week in her jewellery design business. Her life is so much happier and less stressful now, designing and making earrings and jewellery with her husband in the hills outside of Australia, South Australia. She is inspired by her love for art deco and creating something different for her clientele. She creates vintage inspired and art deco style jewellery and playful statement earrings, using a combination of wood and acrylic materials, Natalie designs on a vector programme and laser cuts on a machine and then assembles, and does hand painted items also. Natalie's business name "Little Geraldine" is a derivation from appreciating the "little" things in life, and a nod to her late Oma's favourite plant the Geraldton Wax. Natalie - website / instagram / facebook Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Hello, and welcome to another edition of the podcast. It is a real pleasure to welcome you. Thank you so much for joining me. Whether this is your first lesson or your 100 and verse. Listen, it's so lovely to have you here. Just a quick plug before I get into today's episode, I'd like to remind you all that I now do a weekly email, which you can sign up to via the podcast landing page at Alison newman.net/podcast. In the weekly email, you'll not only get some more information about this week's guest, but you'll get a sneak peek at the upcoming week's guests. And I've also been putting together some more information, things that I don't share on the Instagram or the social media pages. And it's also kind of in the back of my mind that if anything happens to my accounts if I get hacked or shut down for whatever reason that there is still a way to communicate with you. So please go in and sign up. It's just once a week, I don't send any spam. I don't forward your details on to a third party or that sort of privacy stuff. It's pretty important to me, so rest assured, I will keep your information safe. So onto today's episode. This week, I'm very pleased to welcome Natalie Harrison to the podcast. Natalie is a jewellery designer and maker based in Nan in South Australia, in the Adelaide Hills, and she's a mom of one soon to be a mum of two. After finishing school, Natalie wasn't 100% Sure what career to pursue. She went into social work briefly, and after a period of time, found her passion in design. She went on to study interior architecture and interior design. And from this she gained a job in the architecture industry. For many years she was incredibly driven and experiencing the toxic culture of the architecture industry. And two and a half years ago, things came to a head and that lady left she now works four days a week in her jewellery design business, her life is so much happier, she's enjoying the little things in life and life is a lot less stressful. She designs and makes earrings and jewellery with her husband in the hills outside of Adelaide in South Australia. When designing your earrings Natalie is inspired by her love for art deco and also to create something different for her clientele. She creates vintage inspired and Art Deco style jewellery and playful statement earrings using a combination of wood and acrylic materials. She designs on a vector programme, laser cuts on a machine and then assembles and also does some hand painted items to Natalie's business name is Little Geraldine. And this is a derivation from appreciating the little things in life. And a nod to her late Omar's favourite plant the Geraldton wax. Welcome to the podcast. Natalie, thanks so much for coming on today. Thank you so much. Oh, great. It's a pleasure to have here. So you are in a place that I know where it is in its name. Yeah, yes, man. What was your Baghdad beer? I mean, it gave me yeah, I've got family in Mount vaca and strathy. Alvin so nice. Because a lot of people, a lot of people don't know when in is even if it's only about 45 minutes, sort of like an hour out of the city. But what are the times if you say Oh, I'm from Nana. You know, Matt Barker? Pretty much yeah, You're very close to me. Yeah. Have you always lived there? Are you from somewhere else? No, I'm I actually grew up in the city. I'm a I'm a city girl at heart. But kind of as you do you meet somebody, and then you kind of have to negotiate on your living location. Right. So my partner, he grew up in the Riverlands. And he's not a big city person. So I mean, I think he would have really loved to have moved a lot further out. But I worked down in the city, he worked out in for a while he was striving to just bury, if you know which areas? It's a good three hours drive. Yeah. So we tried it. But he had always intended to sort of move closer to the city. And anyway, so we kind of negotiated because I didn't want a big, isolated property, because I've always had a boy's been surrounded by people. And I still wanted to be close to my parents as well, who still live in my childhood home. So yeah, we just kind of negotiated and went around, we'll do kind of rural but still like, you know, there's a lot of build up around us. Yeah. So it doesn't feel quite so country. But yeah, and it's been good. I haven't. It took a little bit of getting used to in the beginning. But now it's just yeah, I can't imagine us ever moving back to the city. So yeah. Yeah, it's a good company. Yeah, I still work better myself as a city girl. Yeah. And like Mount Barker seems to be getting bigger and bigger and bigger, spreading exponentially. So I mean, you'll be a CDC and anyway, the way it's Yeah, I know. Yeah. And I'm just waiting for my partner to be like, alright, it's too there's too many people out, because it is we're really lucky in the location that we're in, in that we have this big hill on the opposite side of our house. And it's kind of too steep to ever be developed. So we're hoping at least for a while that it will stay that way. So we still kind of feel like we're in the country. But yeah, the matte black is spread is it's going to join the gap between you know, where there's still agricultural land. And you might you won't know you're in the country anymore, I still have trouble actually referring to it as the country because it's, it's really not. So you a very creative person, I've been following your creations on Instagram, so you make jewellery, which is really, I haven't had anyone on the show yet. That's a jewellery maker. So I'm honoured. So tell us what you use. And what's your style, I can't describe it. I know, I can describe the Art Deco, which is really cool the earrings. But yeah, I'll hand it over to you soon to take the lead on it. Well, I came from an architectural background. So before I started doing this, I was working in architecture, and all of my sort of early stuff was very Art Deco inspired. And I think, like, I still kind of try and stick with that as much as possible. But I don't know why I just had I had this art deco obsession. And I just wanted to, I guess express that in other forms. Because you don't really get much call for Art Deco. You know, when I was working in architecture, you didn't really get much call for that kind of style. And so that's sort of I guess, vintage inspired and Art Deco was kind of where it all started. And then I the more markets I did the more I kind of interacting with customers. When I wanted to start making it a bit more financially sustainable I guess. I sort of responded a lot more to what customers seem to respond really well to which is I tried out this kind of quirky, playful I guess it's personality dependent, kind of range and people just responded to it really well. So I've been expanding on that as well. So there's kind of the playful statement, quirky. I like to call it, you know, my emotional because people tend to buy them because they have an upset right now working on a range of cows, because they have an obsession with ours, or somebody who has an obsession with cows. So, yeah, I feel like those are kind of my two styles, I guess. And the Art Deco one, I think, is more of an my personal expression. The playful and quirky one is sort of, you know, I'm willing to make the customers happy as well. It's always really nice seeing people's responses when they say even if they don't buy them, when they see, you know, what I've got on display. So but, so we, we design them, and we do it all with a vector programme. And then it's all laser cut on a machine, and then we assemble them. And that's a pretty basic explanation of how it's all done. There's obviously a lot of design process that leads up to it. And it's just a composition of acrylic, and timber. And then we've got some hand painted stuff as well. So that is it. Pretty much. Yeah, those are pretty much the mediums at the moment. Yep. Yeah. And yeah, some of them are incredibly intricate to like I've seen on yours, like he's sort of behind the scenes, stuff on Instagram about the level of detail in some of the designs. Yeah, work that you need to do, then to assemble them is pretty full on. It can Yes, and it can get quite tedious. And I have to be very careful, too. Because that obviously started as a passion. And I wanted that to be something that I continue to enjoy, I have to be very careful that I have a balance between pieces that are more simple to make and pieces that are more intricate and challenging to make. And just a guess listening to myself when I'm not feeling or when I'm not feeling it, basically, if you know what I mean. So so it doesn't become a chore for you to Yeah, to resent doing. Yeah, yeah. And it's taken me a while to get that balance. But I think, yeah, it's slowly getting. Yeah. So you said we so who else have you got doing it with you? Yeah, so when I say we, I pretty much include my other half, because he not from the very beginning. But more recently, he's sort of gotten quite involved in it. We treat it a little bit more as a hobby for him because he works full time. And he's the kind of person who, if he could do everything he would, so it's just, it's just trying to, you know, maintain his manage his stress levels. But he does a lot of the kind of hand painted timber designs that we work on. And also, I say really, because he's quite, even though he's, you know, it's obviously not really his job. He's very supportive. And he helps a lot in terms of not just emotional support, but, you know, he's there at markets and you know, he's always giving me his feedback about designs and, and all of those things. So, yeah, to me, it feels very much like a we Yeah, even though it's my it's my business and I'm running it and I'm responsible for it. He's always there. So yeah, yeah, that's fair enough. So you said you started out with architecture, how did you get into that was was that a passion of yours? Sort of growing up and design or? Um, it was it's a long it was a long journey, I think. Because I didn't go straight into it out of high school. I was not a I want to say like, I feel like I wasn't particularly driven to be anything in particular once I finished high school, and so I, I just kind of went for a job that might have been decent paying. But I was always really into design when I was in high school. But I was always really worried when I say I wasn't very driven, I was always really worried about the amount of competition and pressure and all of that, that would go into getting into any kind of design field. So I just didn't want to do it basically, was I was young, and I was just Yeah, I would just want to relax a little bit. So I went into, like a social work kind of job. And then I did that for a couple of years. And then I think maybe we spent that time maturing and going, actually, it's probably worth me pushing to do something that actually inspires me. And so I went, and I think this is going back a long time now. But I think when I started, when I went to uni, the first time around the degrees were different there. So I think they only had architecture and Bachelor of design or something. But then, when I was in social work, they created a a degree that was interior architecture, and interior design had always interested me. So I kind of took that as a sign, I think and just went in and did it. And then I think it was four years or something. And then I'm gonna prove it to prove really difficult to get into. But I think I think timing was everything. And I just eventually ended up finding something and it just kind of went from there. So yeah. So it was it was a it was a process of I think just maturing and just following my my passion, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. It's sometimes No, you need to do something that you don't really like or not not super passionate about to make you realise that you really want to do the thing that you get that drive. Yeah, yeah. My, I feel like my son is going to be like that, like he's not, I don't think he's going to, he's not going to come out of school wanting to do anything in particular, like, he doesn't have this thing in his head, he just wants to do something that he likes. So it's gonna be fun, fun couple of years, I hear so many people saying that these days as well. And I still feel like, it's so young, to decide what you're going to do for the rest of your life. And in reality, so many people I know, have changed their careers multiple times anyway. It's all just winging it. Like, it's ridiculous to be asking your child, literally a child, what they want to do, because they haven't been in the world to see what it's like to do that, or not want to do that. And you know, like, I always say to my son, like, I was almost 40, before I found, or actually probably 35, when I found the industry that I am so passionate about took me that long to discover what I actually wanted to do. And the thing I'm doing now was never on my radar, as a teenager, like would never have thought of it. You know, I'd say just mate, don't worry about it. Just do something you like in the rest of your life that way through your life. As long as you can feed yourself. It really doesn't really matter. That's easy, isn't it? Yeah, it's easy. So you're talking about you to your markets, and you have the online store? So is this something that you do full time now? Are you still doing architecture? How does how does it sort of fit in with your days? No I so architecture ended up becoming not the most comfortable career for me to be in because it was quite stressful. And so I actually left with the intention of just taking a break because those suffering so much from burnout. And this was kind of like the hobby that I was going to do to keep myself entertained while I worked out what I wanted to do. And so I left and I just kind of never really went back because I just was just like so much happier now why do I need to and it's exactly what you say just do what makes you happy. So you know why? Why go back? And I was really worried that I would would fill the pool To go back and wouldn't be particularly happy just doing what I'm doing now, but it's really nothing compelling me to go back to pictures. I love that. Yeah. Yeah, it's got a, it's got a bit of a reputation, unfortunately for being. Yeah, just a time just a little bit toxic. And so I've just decided I don't really need that. And you bring it home, you know, I've got, I've got a kid, and you bring it home with you, you know, and it just just end up at the end of the day not being a very nice person. And it's just like, I don't have to, I don't have to put that on the her. If we can survive, you know, the way that we are now. So sorry, this is four days a week for me. Four days in air quotes, because, really, let's be real. It's a get it done whenever I can get it done kind of thing. But I'm lucky that my daughter's that candy two days a week. And then she's with my parents two days a week. So I do have that, you know, Monday to Thursday, but then there's always stuff that needs to be done on the weekend. And oh, yeah. And I guess being on time. Yeah. And like being on social media. Like I think there is no, there's no office hours is there. It's like people message all at different hours of the day and night, depending on where they are. Exactly. Yeah. It's just and I'm, I'm a sucker for that too. Because I don't want to miss opportunities. And I don't want to I don't want to be inaccessible. Even though being too accessible is an issue in itself. But yeah, we'll be sitting there and I'll be watching TV with my partner and I'll be relaxing, but I'll be scrolling through my social media, I might get a message and it's you know, 930 at night, like normal business hours, nobody else would expect you to respond. But yeah, he's gonna do it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a really, really bad. Yeah. Your Own Business. It's so you're so emotional about it. You don't want to do anything that's gonna put it in a bad light. Yeah, responding responding to people straight away is obviously, that's a good thing, right, that comes across as a good thing as a customer, I guess. Yeah. It's hard to it's hard to create those boundaries, isn't it? Especially, like, on Instagram, when we're on Facebook. I remember three years ago, I noticed this, like you were getting a rating, depending on how quickly you responded to customers. It was like, this is the average time this person takes and I was like, oh my god, now we're getting judged on how quickly we get back to people. Like I thought Bloody hell, that's a bit of pressure, isn't it? Like, so much work. I don't know how you feel about Instagram, but Instagram drives me completely nuts. With like, and sometimes I'll just kind of stick away from it for a week or two, because I just can't, I just can't be bothered. Yeah. And it used to be something that I enjoyed doing. But then they kept once you become a creator on there, or you have a business or any kind of investment in actually becoming visible. Then it starts becoming a whole nother thing. And you're constantly fighting out about, you know, the algorithm changes. Or don't do this, do this, or now this Yeah, and the real was and just yeah, that's just like, you know, I'm just gonna do whatever. I can be different. Yeah, that's how I feel like years ago, I remember there was this girl in our town who was doing these face to face trainings on all these because when Instagram started to get serious about business when he started, you'd be able to get business accounts. And it was like, dude, now don't don't put any more than so many number of hashtags. And don't edit your post so many minutes after you've posted and all this in Sacramento go do all this and then eventually I just went oh my god, why? Like I did it was same thing. I just couldn't be bothered, like, Yeah, I know. I know that like this used to be fun but now and that's what I take a step back. I'm like, I'm not enjoying this anymore. And yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop for a little bit and then I'll go back to it when I feel like it. But yeah, it's like he's 30 hashtags. To use five hashtags in your in your description, put them in your used friending sounds don't use defending sounds. Yeah, I can. I could go off on a tangent about it. But yeah, it's just unfortunately, we rely on it too much. But what are we gonna do? Oh, yeah, the whole thing. And it's like, it's it's created this whole world where if you want to be in it, you feel like you've got to do it the right way. But then I just think stuff. And I'm not going to do that I'm going to be a rebel and just do it how I wanted to, and who knows if it will work, or it won't work. But I don't care. Because I don't know. I just do you ever find yourself sort of trapped in that comparison hole where you kind of? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but you. Sometimes you look at other like, for me, I might look at other earring makers and go like I'd have grown so much faster than I have. And then I just have to stop myself and go, Well, we're different. You know, you can you can you just wonder Yeah. It's so easy on Instagram to compare yourself to other people and see that as them being more successful. Yeah, because the numbers are right there. Yeah. But in that, yeah, there's a there's a little bit of mental gymnastics that goes on when it comes to dealing with social media, I think. Yeah, for me, anyway. Oh, yeah. You do sort of have to have the blinkers on I think like, because it is easy to get distracted. But I always tell myself, like, I bet you get them to like, every day you get messages are, build your followers pay this matching, get whatever. And I'm like, maybe they just did that. You know, like I tell myself these little stories. It's like, just worry about what you're doing. Allison, like the classic example for me was this this lady particular guests that I've been trying to get on my podcast, and I've been in touch with her agent, who is also a husband. And he's like, Oh, she's been really busy, whatever. And the next minute, I saw she came up on someone else's podcast. I was like, that's not Yeah. So that was that was a mate and I had to go Elson, just relax. You don't know how long it caught it. You don't know what the circumstances were? Get out of your head and forget about you know, scroll. But you do you see these people getting these opportunities that you're not getting it? And what am I doing wrong? Yeah, but there's so many factors that come into it that you don't, that's yes, yes. So that you have no idea what's going on with someone else. And it's so easy just to see that tiny snapshot and make that massive, like judgement and assessment based on exactly right information, basically. Yeah. Yeah. Do you like that, too? Like you mentioned, you've got your daughter? Do you find that to with your parenting that if you're following particular people, and they're doing this or that you sort of question yourself? Do you do that? Yeah. There's this whole gentle parenting movement thing going on at the moment. Sorry, I didn't laugh. But I have to be very careful. Because I mean, I think we all try and be gentle with our kids, right. But we all have breaking. I think most of us experienced that witching hour at night when you've had a really long day, and you just are not getting through to them because they're overtired. And but that's, that is probably my biggest. Oh, this one I get stuck on a lot on social media is that gentle parenting? And I'm like, sometimes I raise my voice. Should I be looking into this gentle parenting thing? I haven't looked at it in that much depth. But there seems to pop up a lot. I don't know, social media is trying to tell me something. I've seen it a lot too, lately. Should we read into that? Yeah, and then, even on my because I have, I've got my business profile. And then obviously, I've got my personal profile, which I'm not very active on at all. But every time I switch over to there, I obviously have a lot of a lot of friends. And we do lead I guess. I mean, we all live different lives. So you do sit there and you compare, you know, they're doing this amazing thing with their kids. And, but also at the same time, I never really posted anything about social media, I'm very private in that respect, even on a private account. So you can scroll through, you know, one of my mum friends feeds and it'll be very colourful with their kids and, and all their family activities. And mine has, I think, maybe two or three photos of my daughter on it. So it's not, but I think, yeah, with my private account, I think I've only got, you know, 20 or 30 posts on this. It's not Yeah, it's yeah. But I do I'm very conscious of the whole. You know, it's so many snapshots of people's lives. Yeah. So you got to talk yourself down a lot. But yeah, I couldn't relate to that. Yeah, yes. There's no photos on there of people fighting with their children in the mind to quit their shoes. Somebody needs to just record the whole witching hour process. But I do follow a lot of a lot of moms now who are just taking the piece out of that really, like, I've found that there are some really good people I follow who like into, they analyse different ways of parenting, so they're not telling you what to do. They're sort of picking apart different things. There was a lady I had on my podcast a little while ago. Her name is Elise Adlam. And she does, she's a feminist, and she's a philosopher. So she spends time reading and researching and then sort of sharing her findings on it. So she's not telling you what to do. She's just giving you a different way of looking at things. And I found accounts like that. And people that are basically comedians, making fun of what it's like to ask someone to put their shoes on 20 times, you know, that's the sort of stuff I follow. Now, I've sort of had to switch off from the people that made me feel a little bit uncomfortable, because I was like, questioning myself too much. Like, I don't need to be feeling like that. You know, you do what you got to do. This is me in my home in my country, my town, it's totally different to you know, everyone else. We're all very different. Yeah, so yeah, I need to get on. Oh, absolutely. You know, everybody's got their different challenges. So yeah, yes, yeah. So I feel like that's, that's suiting me a lot better. Now. I can never laugh at something. And then I can learn something. Say, Hi, Elise, if you're listening, love your stuff. I have to look that one up. Yeah. She's actually created, she's sending out if you get on her email list, she does a, like a reading list of feminist and then sort of reading lists. So you can and you can choose medium hard or extra hard or whatever, depending on how hard how hard you want to go into, or how long you've got to read or how, you know, your mental capacities at that time to whatever to write. And I'll find that rule number two. Yeah, I love learning. So yeah, my backgrounds in early childhood education. So I find that sort of stuff really interesting gives you a new perspective on things that you might never have thought of so yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I listened to him. And this, this sort of might tie it be into social media. So I've segue onto this topic of mom guilt that I love to talk about. And not because I love to say, hey, tell me how guilty you feel. Or don't you know what I mean? I just find it really boring. covered that. Yeah. Do you feel like that in terms of your own creativity, though, like when it's time for you to make your stuff? Do you have that? That feeling of cute. I think one of the hardest things I'm finding with running my own business and having it be less regimented and structured than the nine to five that I was doing before. I call it nine to five but it wasn't really a nine to five it was a, like I said, quite a stressful industry is that I do have trouble sort of creating and sticking to my own boundaries. Like we just said before, where I'm texting people, and I'm, you know, supposed to be having downtime. And I do find if I don't reach a point where I'm satisfied with how much work I've done, or, or especially when I get into the creative process, I need to finish it. I can't sort of stop creating something halfway through because there's a momentum and there's a thought process and that does sometimes overlap with when I really should be paying attention to my daughter or helping out with you know, dinner time and time and all those things and I do get a lot of I don't get I don't get anything from my partner or my daughter. It's really just me. And you know, those times when my daughter says that she misses me. Obviously that's, you know, that can sting a little bit. But yeah, I do find I'm sort of having my own bound, or sticking to my own boundaries with regard to balancing between spending time with her. And working can be really tricky. So yeah, I think it's it's definitely there pretty much daily. Don't think that there's necessarily an answer to it. I think it's just trying, keeping trying to maintain a balance, I guess. Yeah, that's it, isn't it and what you said about that, it's just us it feels that way. It's not coming for anyone else, that that's such a common thing. Like, yeah, I would say, you know, everyone that talks to me about this topic, if they're, if they're feeling that it's, it's, it's all us, you know, no one else telling us this stuff. It's just we're doing it to ourselves. It's not nobody's coming up to you and saying, Are you being a bad mom, because you're working? You know? I've never really had it sort of verbalised to me, I've never, never had anybody say anything kind of, you know, like, that connotation of, no, or, you know, you're, you're not a full time, stay at home, Mum. It's my own expectations of myself. But yeah, and then when you're when you're running a business, it does bleed into every minute, and hour of the day, so yeah, but, ya know, nobody's sitting there and telling me that I'm doing a bad job at being a mum. You just you do it to yourself. Yeah. You come up with it all on your own. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's a horrible thing, isn't it? concept of identity. Did you hear you saw yourself? Did that change much when you became up? Yes. But not, it didn't really change for me until I tried to go back to work. I tried to get back to work, I did go back to work. Because before I was before I had kids, I was very, very career oriented, orientated. And I remember feeling, you know, I'd go home at the end of the week, and I just couldn't wait to go back to work. And it was just me and my partner and our dogs. So you know, it was it was nobody really kind of relying on me to be. So I was very self centred in that respect. It was just, I just want to go back to work and, and, you know, I had projects that I was really passionate about, and I was trying to progress my career. And you know, I was feeling very successful, I guess, in my own right, in that sense. And then I had my daughter and I stayed home with her for until she was about eight months old. And then it was at that point, I started kind of itching to go back to work. And I went back and it was just like, like, somebody flipped a switch. It was just I think when I, when I went back in the beginning, I thought it was just, you know, a transitional thing, because I was getting used to being away from my daughter all the time. And it was driving down into the city every day. And I kind of put it down to that. But then, after a while, I kind of realised my drive for my career had kind of stalled. And it wasn't everything to me anymore for obvious reasons. And, yeah, that that whole being you know, this single career driven woman just wasn't there anymore. I think a bit of it was it was related to sort of being unhappy with my return to work with that particular company as well. So then I I switched companies and things improved a little bit, but there were other problems after that. So you Yeah, I think I think there was a definite shift there and it was very, very noticeable for me. Yeah, So is that when you decided to take your break from it? Was that all? Year? Yeah, so I think I worked for them for I don't think it was quite a year. And then of course, we had COVID go through all of that. So that, you know, everything was changing. And I just couldn't. I just couldn't settle, I think. And then the projects that I was, I was working on really stressful, and I wasn't getting the satisfaction out of it that I used to so. And then that kind of overlapped with the earring business or the jewellery business. And after a while, all I could think about, I remember, at the very end of when I was feeling really unhappy, all I could think about was creating things. Not I mean, because obviously, I was creating things working in architecture, you know, designing these spaces, and, but I think I just wanted to, I had all these ideas that I feel like this trauma or whatever it was that it was going through, just kind of flip the switch in me and all I could think about was just anything I could do that was creative, that wasn't architecture. You know, it was thinking about writing books, like writing kids books, and, you know, painting and macaroni or you know, all of these things. But I'd already kind of started the jewellery hobby at the time. And all of these kinds of new ideas came, so it felt very kind of transitional in that sense. Yes, sorry, I forgot what the question was. I went off on a tangent then. But no, that's no, that's a good. So have you ever tried the other things that you're thinking about doing? The painting? And? Not? Not really. Thing is, I get, I am the kind of person who I can fall into the trap of having all of these ideas, but then overwhelming myself and never really focusing on one. And so the jewellery thing was, was me putting my foot down? Myself? going, No, this is what you're doing. It's working, you're enjoying it? Don't ya, I had to tell myself to stay focused. And so I do some of these other things as a hobby. But nothing that and you know, you don't want to you don't want all of your hobbies to turn into money making endeavours, because that generally can sometimes ruin them? Yeah, yes, I have to be really careful, really conscious of that, I think what I'm doing now, is trying not to kill the creativity, the enjoyment that I get out of the creativity of the side of the business, because when that goes from a hobby to actually being able to having to take it seriously, you shift from, you know, 80 or 90%, just creating stuff to 80 90% administration. And then a small amount of that is actually creating so yeah. And like you said before, you're thinking about what your customers want. So it changes that level of creativity. Like, yeah, he was saying, you get that free you that enrichment and that enjoyment with the Art Deco, but then you're conscious of what people want to buy more aware. So yeah, it could, it could sort of a bit murky couldn't like, it can Yeah, not that but I mean, in in that other respect, I still get enjoyment out of making these other most more playful pieces for customers because of the reaction that I get. And the whole reason I started that business was my little slogan, I guess, is creating moments of joy. And that's what I'm what you deliver when you see it when customers see things and they and they like it. So yeah, it still serves the same purpose. Good now that's cool. When you're talking about that, then I just got an image of the you make these little octopus one. Yeah. So cute. Like they're one of my best sellers. And it's unique to kids like you don't see that kind of stuff. Like that's really cool as well. Thank you. Yeah, we do. And it's such a competitive field to be in as well. So constantly trying to We'll do things that are different and identifiable as well. Because when you're really trying to build a brand, you know, if you get the feedback that people recognise them and know where they came from then you don't feel like you feel like you're doing. Yes, yeah. When people go to market and they want to find the, the lady that makes octopus earrings, you know, like, that's you. Yeah, that's exactly what they'd say. But you know what I mean, from what I'm trying to find. So how far sort of far away do you travel with you market to you? I mean, I've never I don't want to say come to me and came here. But one day we've, we've travelled pretty far the furthest I think we've gone is Kadena, which is about a two and a half hour drive. But at the moment, not, we're not going as far. Most I've actually got another I've got another girl Julie in on the fifth of May. I'm actually she thinks I'm actually six months pregnant. But the concept of doing markets at the moment is quite draining. Yeah. So it's, we're sticking quite locally, but I think when you know, things, blow over and we settle down again, we'll start doing we actually quite enjoy the you know, we're very outdoorsy people. So we've got caravan and, and all these things that we can sort of do big trips with and then do markets. You know. Obviously, we've gone I say that but we've actually gone further than container. But I'm blanking on the name of the town now. Just it might come back to you has actually we have actually done we did a road trip to absolutely terrible with names of towns. But we made it we made a good a good weekend of it. So I think we'd like to do more of that kind of stuff. Yeah, we were big trouble with Yeah, maybe check to make a note at the Christmas probably not. Coming back to their identity. Is it important to you that you're more than an I wanna say just a mom putting that in air quotes? Because we're never just a moment but is important to you that that you've got something for yourself? That's just yours when you're Sydney, share with your husband, but you know what I mean? It's your it's your passion. It's your outlet? It is because and I'm yeah, I'm always so careful about saying just a mum as well, because I think it's it's pretty hard work. Her mum. Yeah. And I think you know, if you find fulfilment in that, that's great. But I did kind of start going a little bit crazy at the end of my maternity leave. Being a stay at home mom. So for me having my own thing that I'm doing is important to me. And I think, you know, I've always kind of seen that with my parents, you know, I don't really remember a period where my mum was just a stay at home mum. I mean, it might have happened when we were born, but she, she's always been working. So maybe that's where that comes comes from. I don't know. But I guess I kind of want my daughter to see that it's okay for us to pursue other things as well. And it's really important to me to communicate to her that she needs to be happy in whatever she's doing. And that was my big thing between changing from architecture to this is that it's not just about making money. You know, you've only got one life You've got to be happy. Don't I? I really don't like the whole, you know, just working so that you can enjoy retirement. Tell me about it. I'm married to a financial planner know, I honestly, I struggle with it. Because you're like, you're alive. Now, you who knows what could have happened, you know, tomorrow 10 years down the track 20 years, you might not be there for retirement age. Like, I really struggle with that. So it's the funniest estimate, you need some time? Yeah. And a lot of the things we want to do they require us to be physically well, so yeah, we're better off doing it now. You know, we, we try to take trips and spend as much time out in nature and, and all those things as we can. So yeah, I just I think my big thing is just making sure that my daughter sees that, you know, she's got control over. I mean, she's only five, she's not probably not really registering that yet, but it's good to start me. You know, you know, that was, you know, five years time I might be, you know, might be different. I don't know, but, ya know, I think that's a great attitude to have. I feel like that with my boys. Like, I've got three sons, and it's like, for them to, to get used to the idea that a woman is not on this earth just to be a mother. Or a waitress, or cleaner. Or a slave for these boys. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah. And I grew up in a home where my mom did everything for us. And because, you know, her mom did everything for her. And that's how it was and, and I feel like, the last thing I want my kids to think, is that, that that's what I'm here for, like, I actually feel really, really crossed. If I think about that, if that's what they think I'm here for it makes me really mad. It's like, No, I wasn't not to wait on you. And so yes, if I can instil that in my boys, I will be. Yeah, that's the thing. And we're very welcome very equal share of the housework here, kind of thing. So my partner is very lucky, loves to cook, eat clean the, we don't really have that domestic struggle as much as most people do. And I think that's really good. Because then my daughter sees that she can't have standards. Doesn't have to just be like, well, this is my, this is my life. I'm the housekeeper. And I mean, if that's what she wants to do, that's fine. But she, yeah, she can have expectations of her life partner. So, yeah, I think if I had boys, I can be quite stubborn. So I don't think I would respond very well to, to that kind of expectation being projected on me. So no, I, I mean, I just I say that a little bit in jest. But like my husband's similar, he cooks like because I don't eat meat. So we've gotten this good habit where he cooks for the boys and I cook for myself. So they say that men do things apart from that, but I just just, I don't know, I've just got this thing ingrained in me that that's how society sees mothers. And I'm just really desperately trying to make my kids know that that's not right. And our hierarchy, the exception where the dad cooks, like there's lots of homes where dads cook and dads clean dads stay home with the kids and moms go to work like, I don't know, I'm just really determined that they don't. It's just diversity in general, right? You just, you just want them to understand that everybody's different. Every family unit is different. People look different people talk different. People have different types of relationships. And that wasn't really a thing during when I was growing up. I wasn't really something that was kind of openly talked about. Yes, yes. You kind of had to work it out. So yeah. And in our town like mint, Gambia, for those who don't know, we've only got maybe 30,000 people. I don't know if even if we've got that many, so we're not a very big place. So when I was growing up, there wasn't cultural diversity. We didn't have you know, people that that didn't look like me so, and now we've got a lot of like refugees have settled in the country. We've got in the town. We've got the Karani community that's really big and people from the DRC. And so my children are growing up with children in their class that aren't from Australia, and the English isn't their first language and I reckon that's fantastic. You know, yeah, I agree. We should be more of it. Like I feel like I missed out Growing up, because I, I still have heaps of pimples and I was really interested in people from overseas, but I never really got to I mean, now I'm working with them, which is awesome. And I'm always asking that question to them probably driving them nuts, but I'm really interested in, in other people's experiences and what it was like living in somewhere that I've never been teaching. Yeah. That's, that's why we travel, isn't it? But yeah, I'd love to so multicultural. Yeah, and I definitely want her to be exposed to lots of different backgrounds. And, yeah, I mean, I think that's pretty normal, isn't it? Yeah, it's easy. It's a good change what's your website where people can check out these beautiful designs that you make? It's www dot Lidl. geraldine.com.au I was gonna ask you where did that name come from? It was it's actually I get this so much. People either assume my daughter's name is Geraldine Oh, my name is Geraldine. I'm getting so used to being called Geraldine. Now I'm just I don't know, but I, I actually, a little part of it came from the concept of wanting to enjoy the little things in life. So when I started this business, it was through COVID, as I think most small businesses did, and I was getting really dragged down by the by everything that was going on. And so I was trying really hard to focus on small details and little things that were making me happy. And so that's where the little came from. And then the Geraldine is actually a it's a nod to my grandmother's favourite plant, which was the Geraldton wax. Yeah, we just had to sort of morph a little bit because little Geraldton didn't sound particularly a little Geraldine. So that's kind of where the little Geraldine came from. Gelatin wax. So do you do you say your grandmother is like an influence on your life and your creativity and what you're doing? Yeah, what was she, I mean, she passed away a long, long time ago, but I do remember having lots of conversations with her about just life and what you know, what we wanted to do, and, and all of those things, and she had a pretty tough upbringing. But we were very close. And, you know, we spent a lot of time together. And I kind of, I always try to remember her in a lot of things that I do. Like, we've got a lot of children WebParts in our front yard, and I've got a lot of her trinkets from her house, in my house. So I just like to, I like to just remember, you know, loved ones as much as I can just keep the memory going. So yeah, that's lovely. Lovely. I'm glad I'm not the only person that asks the question. I feel a bit like, oh, no, sorry. People either just assume that that's my name, or they ask the question. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. I really loved your chat this morning. It's been lovely way to start. This with baby number two. Thank you. And hopefully I'll see you on that again. Beer at some point. Yeah. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from LM Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Jessica Mendes Canadian watercolourist and illustrator S2 Ep28 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I chat with Jessica Mendes, an illustrator and watercolour artist from Kitchener Canada, and a mum of 2 young children. Jessica recently got serious about her art, creating a business 6 months ago as a result of wanting to have some fun and more positivity during the pandemic. She has found her niche painting portraits of homes, cards and creating keepsake art. We chat about how being a parent has influenced the way she approaches her work, how her children motivate her, how turning her hobby into a business has legitimised it for her and how your confidence levels changes through your life. Connect with Jessica's instagram https://www.instagram.com/kwgreetings/ Website - https://kwgreetings.ca/ Connect with the podcast https://www.instagram.com/art_ of_ being_ a_ mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their hours. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the volunteer people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging eldest. Thanks so much for joining me today. On this episode, I chat with Jessica Mendez, an illustrator and watercolor artist from Kitchener in Canada and a mom of two young children. Jessica recently got serious about her art, creating a business six months ago, as a result of wanting to have some more fun and positivity during the pandemic. She has found her niche painting portraits of homes and creating keepsake. Today we chat about how being a parent has influenced the way she approaches her work. How her children motivate her how turning your hobby into a business has legitimized it for her and how your confidence levels change throughout your life. I hope you enjoy so you're in Canada that's pretty I am Yeah, I haven't spoken Canada yet. So this is really perfect. I don't have the lovely accent but all your other guests I love your I can give a town that you're in. What can you just tell me a bit about it? Because I'm really fascinated with like towns and weather and all that kind of. So I live in Kitchener, which is part of like Waterloo Region. So it's like Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, they're all kind of connected as one big city even though they're three. So we're about an hour west of Toronto, so, okay, yep. Yeah. More of a landmark for people. So yeah, so what's the weather like there now? You got snow? Yeah, not too much. It's about today was like minus seven degrees. So not too bad. But that that's pretty cool. Yeah. We haven't had like a minus 30 yet so. Oh, is that that's what's gonna happen? No, in recent years, but it definitely can happen. Oh, wow. I can't even imagine that. Because where I live, our coldest day would be like 11 or 30. Like, we don't we don't get snow we we don't get minus if it reaches a level and people are like in T shirts, they're so happy. Love that. It's nice to have a balance of both like summer and winter though. So Oh, wow. Have you always lived? Yeah, my whole life. Yeah. Makes you I've always lived in my little town I've done some looking at your beautiful artwork on your website. It's beautiful. Can you tell our listeners what you create the style that that you make and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, so I mostly use watercolor in combination with ink and then some just straight ink illustrations. I'm fairly new. I just started doing this maybe six months ago. So that's just what I've been working with. Up until this point. I started a small business and a website. Initially I started you know, doing greeting cards. Something I figured that would be something sellable. And then after you know doing it for a bit browsing Instagram and that kind of thing. Hey, I started trying a few other ideas. And I'm mainly right now have been working on the house portraits. That was kind of my biggest, like requests leading up to Christmas. And that has been really fun. I enjoy doing those a lot. So that's what I've been leaning towards mostly now. But yeah, yeah, they fantastic. Is this so unique? Like they're just Yeah, such as a special, like, beautiful thing for people to have. So yeah. And I think it's now kind of my ideas are morphing into more like keepsake art. So, yeah, things that people will hang on to like, even like pet portraits and things like that are very popular. So yeah, yeah, I think that's, that's really neat. That's lovely. So you say you've only been doing this for six months? So how did you decide to start doing this? Are you self taught? Or have? How did you get into it? Yeah, so I was interested in art quite a bit in like when I was younger, in high school, and that kind of thing. And then when I decided to, you know, study in university, and like, pursue a career, outside of the arts, I just kind of didn't really continue with it at all, like, into adulthood. I always considered myself somewhere artistic, but I just kind of let it fall away. And I kind of went more towards the science direction. And then after having children, after my second was born, during my mat leave, which I'm still on now, I just needed something to do especially like during the pandemic is there's no socializing, like, I don't know how it is there. But here's still very much not normal. So yeah, yeah. So I just, I actually decided, more that I wanted to start a business before I decided that it would be art related. Yeah. So yeah, I just wanted like the business aspect to be more of a project for myself. And then it took me a while to decide that it would be art related. I just, I wanted it to be something enjoyable and not something that felt like work so. Funny, now thinking about it, I don't really consider myself creative. I just, I have a really good attention to detail. So to me, it's why the house the house portraits are really good for me, because it's just copying and being able to see things in and copy from a reference. So I think in the beginning, when I first started this, I kind of had a hard time deciding what my style would be and what I would focus on and when I started to do those, it just felt so easy to say, I don't really have to think about what I'm creating. It's like already on a picture and I just duplicate. So yeah, that's kind of but yeah, I was always interested in that type of thing. And I took classes relating to that stuff in school and then just wanted a different direction and didn't really like make the time for it. in young adulthood and early, apparently. I'm not artistic. I mean, I'm not I can't draw. I do. I can do watercolor because it's just so freeform. So I like that but I can't. So when I see things like yours like I just, I'm in awe of it because I can't do it. I'm like, Oh, I just love it. This is so cool. Trying to use water to erase multiple mistakes you mentioned your children there briefly. Tell us about your kids. So I have two children, a son who will be three in a couple of weeks and then a daughter who will be one in also a couple of weeks. Oh, yeah, they must keep you pretty busy. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So do they sort of join in with your beauty creativity doing? Do you let them loose with the, with the watercolors? Um, my son does enjoy painting actually. Just like children's paints so far and not watercolor, but he's pretty interested in it. And if he sees me bring out my stuff when he's heading to bed. He's he's pretty interested in what I'm doing. But yeah, for the most part, I work on things when they're sleeping. Obviously, they're just too much into everything to try to deal with it when they're I can imagine you're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was the name. You say you do your when they're in bed. So you obviously have some support around you to be able to do that. Yeah, so I think as of this week, I we're kind of transitioning out of a nap, daytime nap for the oldest, so I'm going to lose that kind of hour I had there. And I'm also going back to my regular job in a couple of weeks as well. Here we have a year long maternity leave a year, 18 months. But um, so yeah, other than that, I kind of have like a 730 to 9:30pm window to get things done. So yeah, my husband is really good at locking down the bed time to like, give us our evening because that's kind of our time, the kids are old enough now that they, you know, sleep in their own rooms, you know, at seven, they're in there. And it's our time. So that's really helpful. That's good, isn't it? Yeah. And yeah, you can, if you've got any ideas during the day, you can say, right, I know that time is coming up. So I'll keep that. Keep that. So you must be pretty good at working, like efficiently then like, it's like, right? Go. Yeah, sometimes I try not to, like sacrifice my sleep because that's just not good for anyone around. So yeah, I tried to buckle down if especially during Christmas, when I had you know, house purchase that I had promised to people for gifts and things I tried not to take on too many because I didn't want to turn it into something stressful. So but yeah, it's it's definitely hard to you know, by the time you bring everything out, you know, sit down you only have an hour and it flies by so yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yep. When you use talks about going back to work what what is your day job, I suppose. What's your so if I'm a scientific writer, so I work for a research company so basically my role is writing up the final reports of the results of the research for the client. Yeah, yeah. Very specific and not related to art at all Yeah. Will they be interesting I suppose being interesting. Yeah, definitely. Not very creative. But then again, I guess it goes like the structure of like copying and like you said that attention to detail so it sort of ties in with how your brain works I suppose. is a strength in my position in my day job and I get that comment a lot so I guess it is very helpful that's cool. Two of the big topics I love talking about and I say I love not because it sounds bad when I say I love it because I love talking about mom guilt. That sounds bad. I'm not I don't like knowing about people being guilty. You know what I mean? I just I find it such a fascinating topic. I just find it so interesting. And sometimes I think I should have been a psychologist because I love knowing about why people think the way they do and so mum guilt you is I think I think from what I've discovered with talking to other mums in Australia, and then I've chatted to some in the US, it's something that is quite universal. Is that something that you've you've seen over there in Canada as well? I don't know if it's like a newer term, or I hadn't heard of it, obviously, until I was a parent. But yeah, that's definitely a daily occurrence. I feel like for me, just, I mean, I think the definition of it would just be like, feeling like you're not meeting the standards that you think you should be as a parent? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, obviously, it for the most part is silly. Because if you care that much about your children and how you're raising them, you're doing a fine job. So I, in terms of like, my artwork, and my personal projects, like I don't feel guilty, relating to that, especially because I, you know, focus on that stuff in the evening. Like, it's not taking time away from my kids. So. Yeah, so. But I think, for me, the biggest guilt I feel is, you know, after attending to their needs all day, I don't, I might not have the energy to be like, as fun as I want. Or, you know, so that's like, the main thing that I don't know, the main issue, I feel. Especially with them being so young, too. It's like you, you're giving so much of yourself to these people. And then it's like, what's left for me sort of thing. It's just, you know, cooking and changing their diapers and like them, like, have I smiled at them. And then you kind of have to, like, put in that extra energy to see, you know, yeah, I can understand. Identity is the other big topic that I love. Did you did you go through a bit of a shift when, when you did become a mum, did you see the way that you saw yourself? Changing quite dramatically or had it? I think it was a bit of a shock. How are consuming like parenthood is, like, no one can really describe it to you beforehand. So yeah, it's kind of that. I'm the type of person that when I decide I want to do something, I act on it immediately. So it's that feeling of like, although you're caring for children all day, at the end of the day, you feel like you've accomplished nothing. So it's kind of like, frustrating, it's like, what is the point of this almost, even though it's super important? Like, I don't know how to really explain that. But yeah, it's kind of like you're just floating along and your day is so boring in a way. And so monotonous. It's like the same thing. Yeah, same thing every day. So and yeah, that spontaneity of being able to do something when you whenever you wanted to, or you said, you, if you want to do something, you want to just go do it. That's all sort of taken away from you. When you have the children I suppose. A bit yeah, just to I mean, really, the art definitely I like when I get an idea to its I want to start on it, I want to, you know, improve on it right away and have to wait all day and I only have an hour and it's that is probably the most difficult part of this whole business thing and this extra work that I put on myself. Yeah, but But saying that do you feel like it's really important for you to have that that outlet for yourself? That sort of feel feels that that need for you to make make or do something for yourself? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, prior to starting Well, I started this more like I said, when like our evenings became our own again, like when my daughter was around six months. And at that time, I was just kind of like, use the time that you need to like clean or do laundry and just boring things or if I wanted to like sit down I would just you know like scroll the news which is so negative during this time, so I just, I just wanted something that was fun and more positive. And it ended up being like a really good thing that I chose to do. And prior to this, I, I hadn't used social media for probably three or four years leading up to this. So and I wasn't a fan of it. And I that was an aspect of it that I didn't really look forward to. But there is like a really big art community on there that is really positive and supportive, which is that was like a cool thing to discover when I started that. So. Yeah, that's, it's the thing I find. I don't know about you. But I really like Instagram, as opposed to Facebook, like I love. I love looking at me versus Yeah, and I, and there's doesn't seem to be as I mean, I don't know how I might use it different to other people. But I just love looking at things like I'm really visual kind of person. And I don't, I don't really click on unless it's something I really want to read. I don't click on everyone's comments and read heaps of comments. I just I'll read the person that posted it. And then I'll sort of keep looking at pretty things. Whereas Facebook, it's just so I don't know, everyone just trashy. Yeah, that's the best. Yeah, just kind of has become. Yeah. And that was more the more used, like, platform when I left social media. And so now it's it's so interesting to see how much businesses rely on Instagram and stuff now, which I said, like when I started this, that, Oh, I wish I would have, you know, continued on with this when I was younger, it would have been, what would it have been now if I would have kept with it, you know, 10 years ago. But at that time, you know, social media wasn't really the thing it is now so I don't know if it would have been anyway, it's kind of hard to look at it. Yeah, it's hard to know, too, isn't it? Because I often think about that with my, with my singing because I put so much stuff off until I'm, you know, I'm in my 40s now, and I'm finally doing stuff with it. But then I think I wouldn't have had all the material that I have to write about now. Yeah. So I figured things do happen when they happen. Yeah, try not not even, I don't even think I would have had the confidence to like have a business when I was younger either. And when you're older, you especially when you become a parent, you don't have the energy to care about what people think of you and you just do whatever you want. I'm going to take that, and I'm going to make it quite out of that. Because that is definitely say that the new episode. I love that. In a nutshell, though, seriously, isn't it? Like you've got you put so much energy into the important stuff in your life and all this other rubbish? She's like, Yeah, whatever. Like, it's just, it's background noise, like you just don't get caught up in. I guess most of your work now is you focused on creating your, your work for clients, I suppose. But do you do your kids influence your work at all? Um, I wouldn't really say so much like the actual content. I mean, I have been thinking about since it's like keepsake art, things relating to like, you know, newborn births, or like birth announcements and that type of stuff, which you would have never considered before. Yeah, and only consider myself a kid person at all. But I will tell you just more, you know, now that I've started it, and turn this into a business and kind of have like those, oh, it'd be amazing. This could become a real job kind of thing. I think they like motivate me in that aspect. Because if that were to happen, I think it would result in a more like a better, like family work life balance for all of us. So I don't know, I think that would be really cool. If that was something I I mean, being your own boss and be. Yeah, pretty nice. I think just instead of you know, working the regular nine to five, I mean, it's not too bad now, like, we're still everyone here is pretty much working from home. So that helps. But prior to the pandemic, I also had an hour commute to work. Yeah, so that took away a lot of time and it was really stressful when my son went to daycare and I felt like I only saw him an hour a day and that Marine, you know, so it's it's much better now. You know, it's funny a lot of people I talk to, and like not saying that the pandemic is good in any way, but the silver lining of that is been fingered have been, you know, so close to their families, like physically there with their families, and giving, giving your time to sort of put in perspective, like what's really important in your life, too. I think just saying things in a different way. It's like, just because we've always done things a certain way doesn't mean that's how we have to do things going forward. So yeah, definitely, I think that will change permanently for a lot of people like for my job as well, which I'm really grateful for. Especially with the age, like our children, we've been home, we have not gone back to work in person since it started and like, they have changed so much in that time, like they would have been in daycare for the majority of it if we wouldn't, if we hadn't been home. So, yeah. Think the fact that I decided to turn my hobby into a business, like as a parent really helped me to, like justify the time I'm spending on it. And I don't know if that's good or bad, but it works for me. And so it's kind of like, I treated the same way I would, as a request from my normal job, you know, so it's like, okay, I, I can't do the dishes, I have something to do. You know. And I think that's kind of like, oh, and or, you know, I have to do this because it's, it's gonna make me a little bit of extra money. That kind of forces me to put time into it. Whereas if it was strictly a hobby, and you know, I was just throwing my artwork in the cupboard. I probably would just choose not to do it if there was so many other things to be done. So I think for me, that's just a positive thing about it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's like it gives you that that legitimacy, I suppose in your mind. It's like, this is important, too. This is this is a value and yeah, yeah. Yeah. As long as I just I don't my husband always asked me like, is this feeling like a chore at all? Is it still enjoyable as I as I guess if it becomes like, too much, then maybe I have to take a step back and look at how I'm doing things. But right now it's so okay. Yeah, good on you. Yeah, that's great. I love it. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. Join Dez and Eva as to business besties. Building a global tribe having real world conversations about all things motherhood, in the mum bosses abroad Podcast, the podcast that empowers you as a boss to make confident and smart choices for you and your family. Whether you're staying at home, running your own business, pursuing a corporate career or working that side hustle, you are absolutely 100% A man boss. And if you're doing all this while living abroad, well you're simply fantabulous all the way un find the mum bosses abroad podcast, anywhere you get your podcasts

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Dr Sophie Brock Motherhood studies sociologist S2 Ep59 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Dr Sophie Brock, a Motherhood Studies Sociologist (a Social Scientist) and Mother of 1 living in Sydney, Australia. She provides analysis of Motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences of Mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. I first found out about Sophie's amazing work while recording a podcast with Louise Agnew in S2Ep41 and I am so glad I did, what she is doing really resonates with me and it is so valuable. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what Motherhood means in our society, and how individual Mothers are supported and understood. This has been her of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in Sociology from The University of Sydney, her own experiences as a Mother, and her own ongoing learning from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for a Motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where Mothers have agency, support, and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of Motherhood, including ‘the perfect mother myth’, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom-motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, (re)claim, explore, and connect to a version of Motherhood that sees women who mother as valued, powerful and whole. Sophie’s offerings include self-study courses for Mothers and practitioners, her podcast The Good Enough Mother , and her Motherhood Studies Practitioner Certification program. In todays chat with Sophie we discuss the movie The Lost Daughter , which may be triggering. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Connect with Sophie website / facebook / instagram email - info@drsophiebrock.com Podcast - instagram / website Maternal Scholars Australia Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Sophie Brock to the podcast this week. Sophie is a motherhood studies sociologist, also known as a social scientist, and a mother herself living in Sydney Australia. Sophie provides analysis of motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences and mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what motherhood means in our society, and how individual mothers are supported and understood. I first found out about Sophie and her incredible work through a previous guest of this podcast. Louise Agnew, a photographer from Matt Gambia, South Australia, and I'm so glad I did. Motherhood studies has been Sophie's field of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in sociology from the University of Sydney, her own experiences as a mother and her own ongoing learnings from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where mothers have agency support and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of motherhood, including the perfect mother myth, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, claim or reclaim, explore and connect to a version of motherhood that sees women who mother as valued powerful and how, and personally I could not agree more. Sophie's offerings include self study courses for mothers and practitioners, her podcast, the good enough mother, and her motherhood studies practitioner certification program. In today's chat with Sophie, we discussed the movie The lost daughter, which may be triggering to some. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you or from resources online. I have compiled a list of international resources on my website landing page. That is Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear in today's episode is used with permission and it's from my new age at ambient music trio called LM Joe. It's made up of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I'm so delighted to have Sophia on an episode of my podcast. It really is an honor. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed chatting with Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on today. Sophie, it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me, Alison. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Yeah, so I've been following you on Instagram for a little while I came across you. I can't remember how but I'm really glad I did. Because what you're doing is really of interest to me, and I think will be of interest to a lot of people that listen to the podcast as well. Can you explain to us what you do? And the sort of thing that you're really interested in with your area of work? Yeah, sure. So I have a pretty unusual job title, which is a motherhood studies sociologist. And what that actually means is I'm a social scientist, and I focus on the experiences of mothers and motherhood in our society and culture and how that shaped and what that means. And so sometimes I describe it, if you imagine, like a scientist with their white lab coat walking into a lab and looking at a specimen under their microscope to examine and ask questions and post hypotheses and think about well, what can I learn and what can I find out from studying and observing this phenomenon? I do the same thing but in our social world. So we step out and we look at how mothers experience their daily lives and what the cultural messages are around what it means to be a mother in Our society and culture. And so that's what I'm really interested in. How did you get into this area? What was sort of the trigger that that drew you into it? Yeah, I did my Bachelor of Arts degree and I majored in sociology. And through the course of one of my essay topics, I stumbled across motherhood studies as a term. And I was really surprised that we hadn't learned about motherhood studies formally in the course of my degree. And so I kind of went down the rabbit hole of lots of reading. And I discovered a whole network of incredible maternal scholars at the time, mostly based in North America. But there was an organization here in Australia, two that was focused on maternal researchers scholarship, and that led me down the path of them pursuing a PhD focused on that area of study. And it's kind of just sort of blossomed since then I've just been really passionate about the topic. And this was long before I became a mum myself. So yeah, it's been an interest for mine ever since. Yeah, it's interesting you say about not many people, I guess, in Australia, I don't know about now. But I've noticed that there it is a really strong sort of topic in North America. And there's people in England doing the same sort of thing. But I haven't come across many other people sort of diving in, in Australia. So it's a nice to have that perspective over here. Because I think, you know, culturally, you know, we are so different to other countries, and different sort of setups that our government has, like with health care, and childcare and things like that. So it is a unique sort of, I guess, every country is unique. So yeah, it's nice to have that that perspective. There's actually a fair a fair few people now in Australia, which is wonderful. And there's an organization maternal scholars, Australia, and but the, I suppose the challenges too, it's like, how, where are you placed in order to be able to do this work? And so are you working at a university? Do you have funding, like, all of those sorts of questions come into play with how much focus were sort of able to facilitate on this topic? But yeah, absolutely. There's a really strong pool throughout, throughout, you know, the UK and North America and Australia for this interest. So can you explain to us, and I'll probably stuff this up. So take this way, you need to the sort of the way you describe the difference between motherhood, mothering, like the actual act of mothering within you describe it, like the fishbowl? Can you? Can you talk about that? Explain? Yeah, no, you didn't start that up at all? Naughty that I use. And it's really about making some distinctions in language to make it easier for us to describe accurately what we're experiencing and what we're talking about in motherhood. So there are three distinctions to help us do that. And one is, the word mother can be referring to our individual selves, so the individual mother, or a social role, so the role of the mother, and then there's mothering, which is an act, it's a practice, it's like the doing work of mothering and their caregiving, the actual acting out of what it means to engage in mothering work. And then there's the motherhood. And so the Motherhood is the social and cultural context, that way, the mother's mother with him. So I used the fish tank analogy to describe that to think about around glass bowl, which is like the fish tank, and that represents our society and culture. And this can be applied to lots of different areas, not just motherhood, but we're talking about the hood here. And so that represents all of the stuff that we actually find really hard to see. Because it's easy for someone to point at something and say, Oh, here's a rulebook and look at all of those rules contained within it. That's the law, but the social customs and the social rules and the social norms that we all live within, we know them because we've been socialized into them, but they're invisible. It happens through a process of socialization. So this analogy is really there to help us make a little bit more tangible, what we're kind of talking about here. But we're living within a society and culture that has certain ideas around what it means to be a mother. And that impacts not only how we see ourselves, but that impacts how we carry out our mother in how we actually care for our children. And it also impacts how the world sees us. So that's the kind of analogy that I use to help open up that conversation. Yeah, that's, that's really good. I think that that's a really relatable description, like and I think it's Yeah, because people see things in so many different ways and learning different ways. So, you know, being able to visualize that, you know, vessel that we're within, as this as the social constructs. When I checked Imams on this podcast, a lot of them bring up the topic. Well, I bring up the topic and it's a big one for people about the identity shift that happens when you become a mother. And what actually happens to yourself the sense that you might lose your own identity, you'd become somebody's mum. And you'd lose that. Everything you've ever had, in the eyes of society is diminished, because you you exist to keep this little person alive. That I noticed on your your stories and your your Instagram, that it seems that something that's important that you talk about is maintaining that identity as the person that you are within the role of mothering. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure, yeah, identity is such a complex topic, and we all relate to it, probably understandably, so in different ways. So it is a really common theme to come out when we're talking about who we are as mothers, for mothers to say they feel they've lost themselves as mothers or they've lost themselves in motherhood, or that they may have a really strong sense of their self and identity. But to everyone else, now they've shifted and changed. And as you say, you're, you know, you're Jessica's mum, you're you don't have your even your name anymore. And I think that often coincides with a shift in Korea, because so often, there's such a cemented sense of identity with what we do. So what work we carry out, if there are shifts that go on there in terms of shifting the the amount that we are engaged in paid work, or shifting career, that can also really accentuate a sense of loss of self, because we don't have that to identify with as strongly anymore. Although it can also be the other way, for a lot of women who become mothers, as well, some describe, finding themselves in motherhood or, I know focuses around creativity and saying, actually, this experience that I've had, through becoming a mother can also be a portal and a catalyst for incredible self transformation and coming to know myself in a new way. And, and and what I try and talk about is highlighting the nuance and saying, We don't actually have to have a simple story here. And it can be a bit of both. And it'll change according to who you're speaking with. But I suppose what can be helpful for us is making the distinction between who the world sees us as who the world expects us to be, and who it is that we are. And so I find that useful to come back to to say that we're more than our labels, and our roles, and that it's really important for us, as women, as individuals, as mothers to be able to find a sense of grounding and anchoring into who we are, that feels true for us and feels connected for us rather than who were perceived as being by everyone else. Yeah, that's a big one isn't it is this. And I think the social media makes it even more challenging, because there's so many ways you can experience other people's views. Now, it's not like, you could just hear the neighbors saying something or, you know, a friend made a comment. It's like, it's all around us all the time. So it can become really challenging to sort of find yourself amongst everybody else's opinions of who you should be. Is that something that you you sort of noticed as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't find yourself when you're swimming through everyone else's opinions of who you should be, um, anything that you try on won't be your own, it'll be someone else's, and social media is makes that particularly challenging, because it's really easy to curate an identity on there. And so talking about topics like this, you know, and we're having this dialogue about identity, and we have the capacity to add in the complexity and the nuance. But that's really hard to do on an Instagram post or in a 32nd Instagram reel. And you know, you have the filters and you have your your light ring, and you set yourself up and you know, you can really portray a certain version of who you are. And that's not to say that that's all constructed and false. And, you know, everyone on there, it's just performing, not at all, I mean, we're all performing to some degree wherever we are, whether it's on social media or not. It's just a shade. It's a shade, and it's a part of who we are. But I think where we can become lost is when, as individuals, we identify with that shade or that version or that facade, and we take that on as meaning. That is everything of who I am. And why that can be risky and challenging for us is that when we anchor him to a version of ourselves that exists outside of us, so when we curate an identity as I'm the mother or whatever, right I'm, I'm the the worried over protective mom. That's just how I'll always be all out, you know, and we really identify with that label. We can get kind of at first we can find meaning from it, but then we can get stuck and trapped within it and it can place these bigger expectations on ourselves and that goes for any identity that we try on. And we need we need some flexibility to to change our minds. And I don't think that were kind of allowed that enough in motherhood were kind of put into these boxes quite early on when we first become mothers and then it can feel really hard to find any movement within there. Hmm. Yeah, it's it's such a big thing is in it. It's like the the way that society wants us to be. Have you noticed throughout your period of time, I didn't ask you how long you've been doing this for But have you noticed shifts generally in the, in the cultural norms of what society is expecting of mothers? Yeah, I have. And I suppose my observations wouldn't be as clear as others who have worked in the field for decades and decades, I've been doing this for about 10 years. But it also impacts your perspective as to whether you're in the cultural soup or not. So whether you are a mother or not. So my perceptions of the cultural construction of motherhood also change according to my experience of motherhood as well. But in a broader sense, in terms of the literature and research around motherhood, there's definitely been a shift more recently in the context of the pandemic, and the kind of off shifts, that has been picked up by by mothers and mothers as another version of frontline workers who are kind of holding down the fort and taking on and engaging in more emotional labor as well as more physical labor in order to care for families and other members of their community. And so absolutely, I think there have been shifts that have been precipitated most strongly through the pandemic. But on top of that, as well, though, there certainly has been an intensification of the expectations on Mother's Day. And I think that's a mix of kind of social media pressures and the online world and a mix of social and cultural factors as well when it comes to even economics and costs of living and different kinds of economic shifts that can happen that then impact how we live our everyday lives. And what that can look like culture to culture as well. Yeah, it makes a difference where we're located and where you're listening to this podcast from will probably change how motherhood looks for you in your society. Yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. Something that really fascinates me is this idea that not only mothers work, the unpaid work that is so essential to make society work. But also the, with the people I chat to that are artists and creators, that the work that we do, maybe we aren't renumerated for in a monetary sense, it makes society has this thing that will our society in us in Australia capitalist Western society that unless you're paid for what you do, there is this diminished worth placed on it? And I can see you nodding, so can you share me share with me your your opinions on that? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I think anybody who is engaged in any form of unpaid labor that they find valuable, meaningful, purposeful, and important, we'll be able to intuitively have a sense of what we're talking about here, right? And you're asked, well, what is it that you do and oh, that or, Oh, you're just a mother? Or oh, that's in some sort of patronizing way? Oh, that's a nice little hobby you have or what are your plans for afterwards? Or what are you how are you going to support your family? Or what contribution Are you making? Like there are veiled ways that we're asked questions that remind us how little value our culture places on what we do? And so I think the first and foremost, for us individually, regardless of whether you're an artist or creator, a mother who is engaged primarily in work, raising her child, rather than paid work outside of the home, is valuing what we do for ourselves. Because even though I would like to say that we need a cultural revolution, so that everyone else sees the value in what we do, so that we can feel better about ourselves, that's probably not going to happen, at least until we individually value what we do so almost forever on this I mean, like, remove the word just from your vocabulary. So when you describe yourself, it's not just anything, it's this is what I do and feeling into the discomfort sometimes that comes with first stating that but knowing truth, every time you do, opens up a pathway for others to be able to do the same. But as you mentioned, we live within a capitalist society where value literally equals dollar. And, and so it can make it really difficult for mothers, when so much of mothering is not only devalued socially, but you're not paid for it. So it's not seen as being economically contributing, although we know that it is, you know, your if you want to look at it, in economic terms, you're raising human capital, you're raising taxpayers. So I mean, you know, we can talk about it from all sorts of different angles. But in order to start to create shifts, I think that we need to start valuing what we do and, and sit with the discomfort that others won't, you know, we can ultimately make them either. So where, yeah, where it's countercultural, some of this of what we're doing in holding on to the meaning of what we do. Finally, I want to talk to you about the movie, the lost daughter, which I absolutely loved. I loved it so much. And I related to it so much. And I don't want that to say I'm bad that I really loved it because it's a heavy, it's a heavy movie with a lot of heavy, heavy topics. And you had a wonderful podcast that you released recently with Julianne, where you talked about in sort of unpacked it. can briefly, can you sort of outline a little bit of that, for people that haven't watched it? This will make no sense whatsoever? So I apologize. But if you have watched it, hopefully this, you'll enjoy this next little bit of the chat. Yeah, yeah. So I had a conversation with Julian bridge lamp from Parenthood in mind about the lost daughter film, it's out on Netflix. And the film is one that explores lots of different aspects of motherhood in a really, as you say, kind of confronting and deep and for some quite dark way. And some people love the film, others hated it. Others found that resonant but difficult to watch, and so had to watch it in different sections. But the film, as Julian and I discussed, it explores maternal transgressions. So a sense of when you kind of break those rules of what it means to be a good mother. But in a way that is really kind of complex and fraught, we look at the kind of bad mother archetype. So ultimately, in the film, not as a spoiler alert for those who may not have watched it, but the main character leader, she leaves her children, when they are young. And she we sort of get flashbacks throughout the film of her now in her later life with adult children, and then flashing back to when she had her children when she was younger. And there's all sorts of different storylines in there around her career, her aspirations with her work, I think she has a sort of an affair, and you look at the complex relationship with her partner and the father of her children. And we've kind of have an example of the trope of the selfish woman, you know, the selfish mother, the mother, who is self interested, and who focuses on on her needs and wants and desires and who fails in many ways to live up to this idealized image of who the perfect mother is. And why I think it can be confronting for a lot of mothers to watch is because you can recognize parts of yourself within her character. And it may not be that you are her completely and that you have left your children or decided to, or thought about it, although I would argue probably most mothers have had that thought at one stage or another. But it's that actually, she she crosses those boundaries. But she you can see she also holds love and tenderness for her children. And there are times that which, you know, we've all been there when we have young children where we're, there's a scene where she's trying to I think she's trying to study or focus on something and her daughter is just at her and athearn at her and asking her questions, then I think her daughter kind of hits her. And she's sort of shocked. And it's like, don't hit me and she's trying to contain her anger. And then it kind of unravels. And we identify with that sense of being pushed to our limits as mothers and the power that we have, and that we hold the responsibility that we hold for our children's care and love and nurturance and their safety, but the ways in which we're so often left to do that on our own and we have we then have such harsh critique and self judgment when we can't live up to the idealized image of who the perfect mother is because none of us can and importantly in the film, she's mothering alone. Ultimately, she's not surrounded by community she's she doesn't have people who come in and share the load with her mentally and physically In adequate way, and so it's it's complex, but I think we can recognize parts of ourselves within a character or notice within us. What are the things that we're most repulsed by? and exploring that? And being curious about what that means about what we've internalized about motherhood? Hmm. Yeah, just a massive movie. I'm so glad that, that it's out there. And for people to be challenged by that to actually, to see somebody, like you say, crossed the line. Like, we've all probably thought about it, but we don't actually do it. And to see someone do it is massive. And it's, it's a fantastic. Like, it's like a breakthrough sort of movie. You know, like, it's probably the first time that we've seen this stuff on film. Yeah, it's fascinating. And that was thing I was really, really interested, I was thinking about how later would have survived how our experience would have been different, like you say, with the support of others, living in a different time, or different culture where she had support or, you know, mother's home to say, we're allowed to, but, you know, could do other things apart from being somebody's mother, you know, I just, I felt really felt sorry for her, I felt really like, yeah, film presented in a complex way, it's not a simple narrative. And what I really hope to try and do in my work, and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother, and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self, there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like, actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self with our mothering and how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are and of our own authenticity, in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them so. So kind of breaking is open it and which is what the film has helped us doing in conversation is to see the complexity of the mothering role, I think that actually can offer a gifts to our children and can pave the way for deeper connection with our children true, particularly in adulthood. And it's interesting that we didn't really see later and her adult children, but we had some interactions with them on the phone that we missed. But yeah, it certainly opens a lot of different threads for discussion, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. It's wonderful, so good. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And I urge anybody who's interested in this topic at all to follow Sophie, on your socials, I'll put all the links to that in the show notes. And keep up the good work. Because honestly, you're what you're doing is amazing. And it's it's so important. And thank you, thank you, thank you for having me and for the work that you're doing as well and, and opening them holding these types of conversations to really give us space to talk about a name our experiences and for mothers to reflect on what they do and who they are and to have openings for that rather than closed little containers that you know, ultimately gives us more freedom to be able to do so. So thank you for having me on. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom doo doo doo ah doo doo doo doo

Katherine Collette Australian author + podcaster S2 Ep44 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Katherine Collette, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. Katherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry, in diaries, stories or to pen pals. Throughout high school it fell away until her 20s when she would write a little play or comics for friends, An engineer by trade, when Katherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life she would write a book, so she began. Her first book The Helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life. was published in 2019 and she followed up with The Competition in February of this year - 2022. Her style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of punch. Katherine also co hosts the First Time Podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Mildenhall . Katherine - website / The First Time Podcast / Purchase / Instagram Williamstown Literary Festival / Bendigo Wriers Festival / Queensliff Literary Festival Varuna Writers Retreat / The Divided Heart by Rachel Power / Rachel Power's podcast episode Podcast instagram / website Music used from Alemjo with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast has done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Katherine collet, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two. Catherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry in diaries, short stories, or to pen pals. Throughout high school, it fell away until the early 20s When she would write little play or comics for friends and engineer by trade. When Catherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life, she would write a book. So she began her first book the helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life was published in 2019. And she followed up with the competition in February of this year. Catherine style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of a punch. Catherine also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Miljan. Hall. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Catherine. It's a real pleasure to have you. Ah, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah. Must be nice to be the subject of a podcast rather than interviewing someone. Yeah, it is the I think that events add things to, I think the harder job is being the host, rather than being the guest. You got to be a lot more agile in how you're thinking and think of the next question. But if you're the guest, you just wait for the question and answer. It's great. You can relax a bit, just switch off a bit. And yeah, hopefully not too much of like, if you if you don't. So tell us about what you do. Sure. So I am an author. I have written two books. My first book came out about four years ago. And my second book, which is called the competition came out just over a month ago now. So I do writing. I write fiction, the type of fiction that I write is humorous fiction. And I also co host a podcast called the first time, and I believe you had my co host on the show a couple of episodes ago. She'll say, we know Yeah, it was lovely to make a she's, you guys must have so much fun when you make that podcast. It's I think it's well, I mean, we've been doing it for about four years. It started out the concept of the podcast was my first book was coming out. And she was the only author that I knew. So I kept asking her all these questions about what to expect. And yeah, we ended up making a podcast about it. And the podcast has continued since. But during the last and it's always been fun. But during the past couple of years with COVID. We're both in Melbourne, we've spent long periods of time locked down, as I suspect have, you know many of your listeners. But she really was my main touch point, aside from my family, my husband, my mom, it was Kate that I spoke to every week. And a lot of those chats are recorded. And we listened back. She made a little compilation a few episodes ago. And we listened back to the conversations just snippets that we had when COVID first hear it and then over time during lockdown, it was just a it was a really fascinating thing. She definitely kept me going but you could also hear the fatigue in our voices over time. Yeah, it's interesting to have that like little time capsule almost of that, that moment in time and sort of reliving the emotions and the uncertainty and all that sort of thing as as it went through. And yeah, I think it was fascinating because I think that period particularly at the start, you know of so much uncertainty. Yeah, to reflect back and think. Wow, I'm glad you didn't know what was coming in many ways. Yeah. So strange. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just want to let you know that I messaged you and let you know. But I am reading the competition. I haven't finished it yet. I'm sorry, I didn't get to finish it. But I love it. I mentioned you and your message I love your sense of humor is so relatable to me. I just I read it. And it's like, I could have said it myself. It's just love it. So. Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Thank you. I really appreciate that All right, so let's go back to the beginning. How did you become a writer. I was a kid who always liked writing. I, I wrote, as a, you know, pretty early on, I would write in diaries, I had a lot of pen pals. Often people didn't realize they were pen pals with B. So they, you know, didn't always write back. But I wrote a lot of letters to people. And I also read a lot of poetry in those letters, terrible sort of rhyming stuff. So it was something that was really a part of my life early on. But it fell away, as I think it maybe is a fairly common experience in high school I was more interested in I played a lot of basketball. For one, I was probably also more interested in meeting boys. So I did, I did some writing, but mostly it was assessment based. So there was some creative stuff in there, but but not, you know, not heaps. And then in my 20s, I would do little bits and pieces, sometimes for gifts for people, like I might write a little play if they were going away, or I might write comics for them. So I had this creative element. But I mean, I'm, I'm 41 Now, when I turned 30, it just not I had a crisis, but I had this moment of thinking, my whole life, I thought I would write a book. And I realized that no one's ever just gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, you'd be amazing at writing a book. If you if you buy a if you write a book, we'll publish it, you have to just start writing the book. And so I did, and I didn't shut start with short stories. I just plunged straight in. I had met. I'm an engineer, but I was working for a brief period of time at a council doing community development sort of stuff, which I was really very good at. But there I met this president of this local senior citizens club. And she was a really intense woman a little bit problematic. I remember that she I think the first time I met her she was furious because the Chinese subgroup of senior citizens had been playing mahjong in the bingo room. And she had gotten so angry with them for doing this that she had, they had sandwiches in the communal fridge. So she threw out all their sandwiches. And, and told them that it was her fridge and they weren't allowed to keep food in it. So I met this woman, I had this desire to write. And so I wrote a story that was set around a council worker who encountered this senior citizens club. And I was obsessed. I wrote, I didn't have I, this was pre kids. But I got up every morning, I'd get up at five, I'd write for an hour, then I'd go to the gym, and then I'd go to work. And slowly that would encroach into weekends. Like I do writing on weekends. I wrote a bit on the holidays. My husband was like, it's kind of annoying. She would not do this. But yeah, so that was how I got the first draft of my novel down. And I was madly redrafting, wanting to start to send it out. When my daughter was born, that felt like a really big hurdle. But basically, I sent it out. You know, I had a few hurdles and hits and misses along the way. But that novel ended up getting published. And when it was purchased by the publisher they purchased it was a two book deal. So I I was in at that point. Yeah. Is that scary though? Knowing that you've got to then turn around and do In other words, well, I had a draft of the other one. So that certainly helped. Yeah, but it is it is daunting. Yeah, I've heard people say that it, it probably is a better example of it, that do weekly columns. And so that feeling of like, you just sent one in. And then the next day, it's like, oh, I have to do another one. Like I just finished the first one. So did definitely have that. Yeah, right. So not wanting to spoil the competition for people who haven't read it yet. Was that inspired by real life people as well, as they helped me it was, it was so the competition is set around. Public speaking club, people might have heard of Toastmasters. It's a very similar environment. But basically, I had swapped jobs, essentially, from going from engineering to working at the council. And suddenly, I had to do a lot of public speaking. So I joined the local Toastmasters Club. And I don't know if you've been to Toastmasters. I know people I know people who have. Yeah, so I so it's, it's a funny little world. I think that a public speaking clubs probably always going to be pretty awkward. And you would want a public speaking club to be awkward. Both because people are trying something that is inherently awkward. But also, if it was to cooler space, you wouldn't feel comfortable to get up like it has to be this really accepting friendly, kind of gentle place. But that also adds a layer of unusual newness I suppose like if I guess my first impression of Toastmasters was like, Oh, this would be easy to satirize. Because, well, it's awkward, it's enthusiastic, it's really positive, it sort of came out of a probably predates the self help movement on us, but it's definitely a part of it. But at the first meeting that I went to, there was another woman who had just joined and she was a, she's a transgender woman. And she was in the process of transitioning. And she talked about why got to know her over time. But basically, in that process of transitioning, she picked Toastmasters as the place that she would start that so she sort of said to the group, listen, my name is this here. But outside of this, I've called David. And if you see me in the street, don't mention, you know, my name is Greer here, don't don't mention the two things. And that always struck me that Alongside this, this place, that could feel a little bit ridiculous at times, there was something about it, that was really beautiful. If someone who is doing something that's really brave, and I imagine it's really difficult, but they feel that this is the best place to start that journey. And so I always had this view of Toastmasters. And it was a view that I maintained over time, that it was a place where people found their voice, and that there could be elements of that, that were really funny. But there were elements of that, that were really sweet and positive and important. And, and so I started writing a book about it. And the book, the competition is set around a public speaking competition in a Toastmasters like environment. And there is a character in it. It's a really minor character that is based on that original woman that I met. But that's not the focus of the story. Yeah, yeah. Do the people know that they're in your books? Like, are they aware that they've had them? She's the only one that is based on Well, I did have a senior citizens club president in the previous one but I suspect she's is dead and and she was heavily fictionalized. The this is really the only character that is more closely based on a person but she's a really small character before it before the book came out, I had because I had interviewed Gregor is the woman same before writing the book. And I said to her, Oh, would you like to read the bits that I've put this character in? And I've set up copies of the book in my she said, No, she wasn't fast. But she my launch comes up in a week's time and she's going to come to the launch, which was nice. That's but it wouldn't be. It is lovely. It would be very daunting though. If I hadn't done those things, the idea of writing about something and not being I open about that. And I can see why people, you know, could make that choice just because it feels harder. But I'm glad I did. And I mean, it was a positive portrayal. Yeah, that's the thing. You're not You're not hiding it because it was, you know, you turned it into a negative or anything. It's like, it's quite positive. And you don't mind if that person is very aware that that is them? Or based on Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess the challenge with that, though, in that kind of example, is that it could feel very random to have a book that is set in a public speaking club. And there is just a transgender character walking around, like, it could feel like a really labored form of diversity or something like that. So I just was a bit conscious of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, share a little bit about a bit more about your first time podcast with I mean, I don't want to give away your secrets, because I want people to listen to it. But tell us the sort of the gist of it, I suppose. So as I said, when my first book was coming out, I had all these questions. And so I would routinely be like, okay, you know, like, my launch is coming up. What am I meant to do at the launch? Or they want me to give a speech at the booksellers conference, what should this speech be about? Or, you know, just all of these different things that I wanted her view on, I wanted to know the answers to because I think it's, I think it's a vulnerable thing for anyone releasing any type of art into the world via books, or music, or sort of visual art, those kinds of things. And so you, you sort of, I really wanted that from her. But I also was very much in this space of being a writer in a community of writers, and a lot of them were emerging writers, that would be going through the same things because, you know, they would have books published, if not now, but they just had books published. So both of us were like, Well, we think there's kind of a bit of space in this. And I think authors, particularly emerging writers also like hearing those stories of how people's books came to be sitting on the shelf. And did you get an agent? Did you enter a competition? Like, you know, was it on the slush pile, all this sort of stuff? So we started the podcast, and it always had these two parts. One part was our experiences. So me saying it was, I think, particularly in those early days, because we recorded a lot, before we had an audience, and we're releasing episodes as their audience was growing. We were both very vulnerable and saying, I feel really daunted. Yeah, so we had this one part, which was about us discussing me asking questions, the two of us discussing pretty candidly the experience of being published. And then the other part was interviewing authors, other authors about what it was like their first time. And so that was the initial starting premise. Initially, we had to not beg people to go on the show. But we certainly had to question please come on, you know, podcasts people can be a bit dismissive of, but we were like, ah, Could you could you come on our podcast and in people very kindly said, Yes. And so now I think we're into our fifth season, we are overwhelmed with people pitching like it, that part has really evolved, evolved. And you don't have to ask anymore, you've got people knocking down the doors to you to be a part of it. RedBubble. And the best part of that is, is that you get st people's books. So you just have we get lots and lots of books. So as someone who loves reading, as well as writing that, I just I constantly pinch myself and going to the mailbox and having all these books there. It's great. So that was where we began. We are now five seasons in we still interested in people's first time, and that's sort of what we're known for with our guests. We always ask them about that first time. But I guess as we've evolved as writers, we ask also about the craft of writing, as well as the publication experience. Yeah, it's been really nice. And I think what's nice about it is that you start to build a community around it, so it's got a really beautiful community and it's been such a nice thing to do. Writing can be really solitary, but this feels a bit more like a team sport. Yeah, absolutely. And it would be so rewarding to like knowing from your own point of view, what it's like, for your first time and how daunted you are, you're actually helping other people as well. I think that would be amazing feeling. It is, it's lovely. And some of the letters that we get, and emails are so touching. I keep mentioning COVID. But I think COVID is really dominated life. And we've had so many people that have messaged and said, You really got me through COVID I couldn't write I didn't feel creative. I was I couldn't meet with my writers group. But having you and Kate talking and being able to listen to you guys and hear the same struggles. And here also the your defeat your challenges in being creative at such a strange time. Yeah, so it's like they were they were, they were hearing from familiar figures in their lives. You know, it was they felt reassured, and yeah, it's like you. Even though you weren't there, you were there for people, you know. It's true. And I feel that myself with a podcast that I listened to podcasting in audio is such an intimate medium, because it's intimate. When you create it, it's just you and I sitting here, it's intimate when you listen to it, because it's generally most people listen on headphones, or, you know, maybe in the house, but they're generally listening on their own. It's only when you then realize that, you know, it's 1000 people listening on their own, that you realize what's not, you know, probably only to say everything. Not good on you that that's really awesome. I think yeah. COVID was, and it still is, you know, it's it's a time that's divided people like physically. And so having those, those connections that people can tap into, it's just been everything, it's been so important for people and yeah, good on you. And I think that community has helped us too. I remember early on in COVID, we had a listener that wrote a letter in and was saying they had just been at for Runa, which is a very well known writing retreat in the Blue Mountains. And it was in a house that was formally owned by Eleanor dark, who was a writer. And this listener that wrote in was saying that she had read Eleanor darks, diaries or something from the Second World War. And in them, Eleanor was saying that for the duration of the war, she couldn't write because she felt this creative malaise. Survival was sort of front of mind. And it just sort of felt frilly to be writing amidst all that, and something that really helped me when I was struggling to hear someone say, yeah, that is really difficult in times of hardship to want to write, but also that that malaise goes away, and that as as things in life get better. It comes back. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, it's like a, it's not a thing that's sort of reserved for this era of COVID. Like, this is an experience that people have had for many, many generations. So it's sort of reassuring in that way, you know, that you're not alone. And what you're feeling is normal. And you can feel exactly, yeah, exactly. No, that's, it's interesting. Because I found in people that I've spoken to, through this podcast, it can go either way. It's like, some musicians go bonkers. And just they've got to express how they're feeling through their art, or painters, and, and such, and others that just go nuts. Like survival mode, like you said. It's like daddies that it's like almost the primal brain kicks in. And it's just day to day looking after yourself. Looking after your family. Yeah. And everything. That's really true. Yeah. And I guess, to everyone's experience with the COVID, throughout Australia and around the world as being different to like, even you guys compared to me here in South Australia, I've had nothing compared to what you guys have gone through. So I sort of touched with that. You know, we've been really fortunate here and yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting. I think that's really true. I think it's also if you err on that side of that, I can't write I can't do anything. I've got nothing. It's really hard seeing people that Oh, my God novel fell out of my head overnight. And I've you know, written it in three days. I think we often feel that since well, I think jealousy is always a part of creative life, how much you try and engage with that and be calm. Just not to let it in, but you can feel like you're falling behind Yeah. All right, so let's talk about your family and your children. You mentioned briefly that you had your first child when you were sort of the helpline was getting going places and happening and things. And yeah, tell us a little bit more about your children. Yeah, so I've got two children, the eldest, Matilda is eight now and Oscars, six. So they're both at school. This is Oscar's second year at school. So he's in grade one. So I feel like now is a really exciting time creatively, because I get two days a week that they're both at school, and I'm not doing other types of work. So that's really exciting. But yeah, so when Tilly was born, I took a year off work, you know, stayed at home, I wrote a lot in that time, she was a good sleeper. So I was really lucky in that respect. I feel like I've been able to maintain my creative practice through motherhood, probably the bigger blip in that was having two kids, because most people with multiple kids will know, you have this idea that maybe they'll have a nap at the same time, but think that ever really happened. So I think that felt that sort of first year of Oscars, life felt like far more of a hit in that respect. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I feel lucky, like those. I feel lucky to have both to both be able to maintain a creative space and energy and be able to do that. But also to complement that with family life. I feel that one enhances the other. It can you elaborate on that a bit more? Well, I think that pre kids, that was a fear for me, like I had this sense of urgency when Tilly was going to be born, that life would change. And I had a sense that what if I can't write anymore? What if? Or what if I can't write for a long time, what if it's not until they're both at school that I can sort of pick up a PIN, I really didn't know how that would work. And I think those early days of motherhood are so hands on, there's so much sleep deprivation and all those kinds of things that whilst I enjoyed all that I I had framed it around loss, in some ways that I would lose this ability to be creative. And, and a lot of that was related to time. But increasingly, I think having kids is enhanced my creativity, both from the point of view of productivity and the lesser time that I have. But kids also awaken a different sense of curiosity in you and a sense of play, which I mean, you reading different books and seeing different words in that way. But I don't know, like, just how a child will spend an hour balancing a beanbag on one foot, or you know, those sorts of the game of life, you know, games in nothing. And there's something that's I remember being a kid and thinking, encountering adults that I knew had forgotten what it was like to be a kid and thinking, I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. But I think for me, it wasn't until I had kids that I remembered what it was like to be a kid like I had forgotten. Yeah, because life takes you in that direction, doesn't it? Like life expects you to be a certain way and behave, you know, this level? And it doesn't encourage times of play and and it doesn't. You wouldn't the things that you do with kids. Like I don't know, it's sometimes it's boring, like you're playing in a sandpit and that repetition of activities that really little kids like But the delight they will take in playing with an adult is really a joyful you're listening to the art of being a mom. I started doing improv comedy last year, just they do a series of like terms, basically. Yeah. And improv, particularly in the early stages has lots of games that you'll play it. And they're really fun. So something very small might be one person you're in, say, pairs. One person says, well, well, if it isn't there, and then you have to think of like an adjective, and then an occupation or a type of thing. So well, well, well, if it isn't that angry bus driver. And then the other person has to say something that an angry bus driver will say, like, oh, you know, I haven't got a good ticket to get off the bus, something, something small. But I do that. And I take a lot of those games, but that sort of thing with my kids, where you'll say, well, well, well, if it isn't there, something something. And it's just really fun seeing what they come back with and what. Yeah, I would feel silly, potentially doing that with adults, but kids are always up to that stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I work in childcare. And I, it's the perfect environment for just being yourself, like truly being yourself. Because you can be as silly as you want. You can have in the staff it everyone's the same. So there's all these banter and silliness. Like I could imagine going into my work and doing something like that, because people are just in that headspace that, you know, your inhibitions are gone. No one's judging you like, a kid's not gonna look at you and go, Oh, that's not very funny. Like, you know, it's so good. I do. Like there are certain friends I have that, that you can do that sort of stuff with my publicist for the book, the competition, we've traveled around a bit since the books come out. And she was saying when she was a kid on long car trips, obviously, you had the radio, but the radio would go out. So her family used to play this game where one of them would pretend to be a talkback radio host and the others would call in. And she said, the great joy of it was just in the name this so you sort of drive past a church and say, Oh, we're looking at churches today. Have you ever been in a church? What's the funny thing that's happened in a church? Do you like churches, you know, this sort of thing? And just the ridiculousness? We did it for hours. Like, just as we were sort of being driven from place to Oh, suitcases. Do you have a hard suitcase? You have a lost a suitcase? You know, just Yeah. So I tried doing that with my, my kids, and they have never heard talkback radio. We listen to podcasts and things. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? You sort of that's that generation. Yeah. Oh, I should try that with my kids. They would love that actually. So much fun. Yeah. Like, the more inane that it gets is just and because talkback people are so like, have such an opinion, such a singular point of view. Yeah. I can imagine your lady you said about before that it's like, yes, she'd be on Mars young into being gay. Right? Exactly. Oh, my goodness. One of the things I like to ask my guests is about how having children or being a mother sort of might have changed the way they create. And that's how it sort of has influenced you, I guess is that it brought back that ability to play and look at things differently. Maybe look at things through the eyes of a child and yeah, I think that's the real. Yeah, that's, that for me, that's what kids have brought. I think also that I've had much greater exposure to kids books. Kids books have changed a lot since I was a kid. You still have I mean, I love Roald Dahl. And I still love Roald Dahl. But even when I pick him up, I'm like all It's pretty harsh at times. You know, a lot of it is sort of carried through. But other things like I don't know if we'd get away with that now. Yeah, that's actually that's a really good point. You see some of the stuff. Yeah, I've noticed the same thing and like reading to kids at work over the years. It's like it's gone from like, almost like an adult way of writing to this completely the other way that you think you'd hear that in? Like, you know, the schoolyard like, it's not even formal enough for a book, you know what I mean? Yeah. This Yeah, the, my kids read a lot of Ra sprat, who does nanny Pickens. And anyway, she is very funny. Just listening to kids books is really fun. We listen to a lot of them on audio, on podcasts or on borrowbox, like library apps. tightenings. So I think, not only that sense of play with my own kids, but being exposed to authors who play a lot in their writing. I think there's so much more of that than there ever was, before you look at the tree house books or books that are just a bit absurd or, Yeah, funny books. Yeah. You talked before about not really knowing what to expect, like, you're thinking of things in a point of view of loss, like, will I get this back? You know, maybe how it's going to fit into my life? Did you have other members around you at the time, who were writers that you could sort of glean information from? Or are you just basically making it up as you went, I suppose I had, I had just started a writers group, there were four of us in the writers group. And I know I didn't have that, then that's a lie. So I had gone to RMIT. And I was doing some creative writing courses there. But I didn't have a group at that point. But it must have been fairly early on. When I went back, so Tilly must have been about 12 months old, and then met a couple of people. And we set up a writers group that was separate. So that was a really pivotal moment for me, in having other people around me who were writers that I could talk to, they were obviously less established writers. So they were also had pretty young kids. And we're figuring those things out. So I think it was a more lonely endeavor. By the time we're not a lonely endeavor, but probably everyone has to figure that balance of stuff out for themselves. But when my son was born, one of the girls in the writers group was Kate actually gave me a book by Rachel power coat, ah, what's the name of the divided heart. I remember breastfeeding at night, and just devouring this book, which is a book, it's a collection of interviews with creatives, writers, musicians, all different sorts that talk about particularly those early stages of motherhood and motherhood and how they fit it in. And so you would have people who were sort of literally breastfeeding to the side of the stage before going out and playing a set, and others who really had struggled to be able to do everything to be able to do anything. And, for me, that was the greatest education because it was this breadth of experience of how people had made it work. And so it sort of did reinforce that idea of you just have to figure it out. But it presented a vision of it can coexist. You don't have to give one up. You can have both, and it will be a juggler. And here are examples of what the juggler looks like. But yeah, yeah, that was huge for me. Yeah. And in fact, I've tried to give it to people who've just had babies and who are creative, and it's very hard to get. Yeah. I had Rachel on the, on the show on the podcast in season one. And gosh, she's an amazing woman to speak to. She's just, I don't even know how to describe her. She's just incredible. And the gift that that book keeps giving to people. It just it's endless, like so many people had had mentioned this book. And I actually had it I hadn't read it. I'd heard of it, but I hadn't read it. And I reckon the first three people I've spoken to had mentioned this book, I'm like, I need to read this book, and then I read it and like I need to talk to this lady that wrote it. I need to get inside her head more. And yeah, she was so generous with their time Um, it was wonderful to speak to it. It's such a known book among, like, I want to say it's niche, but it's kind of not niche because it really applies to so many women. It's just that it applies at this particular gets you at this particular stage of life. That's it isn't. It's yeah, it's an incredible book. Yeah. I approached my interview with with Rachel, like, I didn't want to be complete fangirl. You know, you might be like, actually, when you speak to authors, it's like, I need to contain myself. But I'm so excited to speak to it. And I just wanted to to really understand from a layperson, that what she's done is just been incredible. And the gift that she's given to so many people, and yeah, just how grateful we all are, you know, for does she know that I imagined check and save a lot. Does she think? Yes, I hope she does. If you're listening, I hope you get it. Push it really to me. What in, in what I have seen, it is the only book of that kind of milk that I have discovered. And it is a very beloved book. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So yeah, like, I think what, what I've sort of taken from that, what you're just saying is like, you can see what other people do, you can't exactly copy what they're doing. Because everyone's life is different. But it's reassuring to hear everyone's going through it. And we can make it work. And like you said, these are some ways that you can sort of manage that, that juggle. And I think it helps with that. You can feel very judged in that juggle at times, particularly in a creative juggle is very distinct from a work juggle, because at least a work juggle is bringing money in. Whereas the creative juggle, might not bring money in at all, or a very small amount of money relative to return. So that tension, I think, is what profound in that space. It's a whole, like, I can never say it right? It's not a kettle of worms. It's a can of worms, can I get my kettle of fish in my cameras? But that is it like the value that artists have been honest, a forced in inverted commas, because I don't really believe we bring it on ourselves. It's something that society and external judgment has brought upon us that we, if things are only a value, if that's a monetary value, and that's a horrible thing to say, unless you can commercialize it, unless it's part of capitalism, society, it's what is it worth, you know, and that's a really, really sad thing with so I think it's so deeply ingrained that in many people that many people don't even realize like one of the things people always ask you, when your book comes out, or when it's been out for a little while, it's generally not other writers or other authors that would ever ask this, but just kind of people that are outside of that world is Oh, what a sales like, Did you which, and I can understand that compulsion to ask that. But it's, it's such a fraught question for someone producing creative because it's so diminishes the worth of something to this volumetric measure, when equally, they could say, you know, what's been the response? or what have you, you know, like, there's so many other ways that you could measure the success of a thing to talk to sales is, is Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Some of the moms I've had on this show, have felt the judgment from not their own parents, but like parents in law, about there's one example of a lady that the mother in law would look after the brother's children because the mum was going to work like an actual job, but she wouldn't look after her children because what she was doing wasn't deemed as being worthy enough to have childcare. You know, it's like this, this massive judgment that comes at you from all angles. That kind of ties into one of the things I love to talk to moms about is this whole concept of mum guilt. What's your sort of take on that in relation to, to creativity? I think, I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that stuff is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship. And, like a real life relationship between perception and and that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Yeah, I don't suffer majorly from guilt. Because I guess for a lot of years, I tried to make my writing as invisible as possible. So I would get up at five o'clock or 430. Before kids, pre COVID, I would leave the house, we have a 24 hour McDonald's nearby, I would spend that, you know, be back by 7am, which, you know, I'm in a privileged position to be able to do because I have a partner who was in bed at that time. So I did work really hard to kind of make that as invisible as possible. Because I have now got two books out, I've been able to carve out more time. But I remember when Tilly was I think she was about nine months old. And she might have been 10 months. And I got my very first fellowship to go to a writing retreat at Bruna at this retreat that I've mentioned before, and it was a full week all on my own. And I was so unbelievably excited, because it was a really validating thing to have one in the first place, but also because I had a 10 month old baby like to be away from that child was like hard, but I was gonna love every minute of it as well. Yeah. And I think I even weaned Tilly in order to go, which I would not have told people at the time, but I didn't want to be pumping milk and being at this retreat the whole time. Yeah, a week. Oh, my God, having is the worst. Anyway, so my husband and I were in Sydney and I was going to catch a train to Verona. And so I was in this like, great, joyous mix of excitement and all the rest. And he got up at sort of 5am put to leave the car and they drove off. And so I lay luxuriating in bed and was just about to get onto the train, and was just pure, pure excitement. And you know, like, I'll miss you, but I'm so happy. Anyway, he called me at like 730. And something had happened with the car. And they've been driving. And he what had happened, the brakes had failed. So he was trying to slow the car down and pushing on the brake and nothing was happening. So he was stuck on the freeway with no way of like slowing down. And so he managed somehow to get the handbrake to go on. We just got to get like 100 kilometers now. So it's like this real near death experience. And it was so like, it was awful and crashing on multiple levels. But I remember feeling really worried but also, if I hadn't have been if I hadn't have been going off to do my writer's retreat or why myself that would like it was such a guilt laden moment, even though it was complete chance. And me having been there or not, wouldn't have made a difference. Yeah, there's just yeah, like, did you get to go on your retreat still? Or did they did and I still had a great time. But I always whenever I think of that retreat, I think of this need if that was it, the cruise control got stuck on and he couldn't turn the cruise control off my God. So it just kept the car kept barreling along so it's it's really frightening thing. But whenever I think of that retreat, I also think of the two of them having this near death experience. And it is overlaid with joy and guilt. So as much as I sort of am conscious of it and try not to feel it. It's it's yeah, it rears its little head. I love that. And I love that you didn't go back and save them in the lucky which rich rage because like, like you said, like what would have been nothing would have changed. If you were in that car, the same thing would have happened. It's like I would have made it worse because I would have been like ah like I didn't die. So it's probably better for everyone that I was I had topic that I like to raise with my guests is about identity about how the concept of how you saw yourself changed when you became a mum. Did you sort of have any To sort of experience where you went, I mean, you did talk about before, how you were concerned that you may not be able to write again. Yeah, identity is an interesting one. I think that I have never been a person that has, when I became a mother that that became my single identity. And I'd probably say that from even when I worked, I worked as an engineer, I really struggled to say I'm an engineer, were to take that honest identity, like some people do really take their job on as an identity I never really did that. I struggled to take on I'm a writer as an identity, which probably is more impostor syndrome, you know, is, is probably the source of that more than anything. So with motherhood, I was obviously a mother, but I never saw that as a singular entity to how I was. And I think part of that was, I was able to write in those early days of motherhood, you know, a couple of months in that sort of stuff, I did go back to work. So I didn't spend, I spent a year off, but I didn't spend a prolonged period of time. So I think that really helped. I have a tendency to obsession, like I could very easily focus singularly on art, like I have to be very conscious of what is important to me in life. And I want to have strong relationships with my kids and my partner and be in the world. But I have to really be conscious to balance that and to not let obsession with writing and those kinds of things overtake it's a really conscious effort for me. Yeah, yeah. It's you find that but like, how do you I'm an all or nothing person that my psychologist has told me that many times, I, I get fixated on things, and I have to do them. Or conversely, I just couldn't do it about anything. Like it's really odd. Yeah. Like, if I've got something in my head that I want to achieve, I'll do it. But that's very rare. I'm a very unmotivated person generally. That's like, when I watched the Olympics, and you hear people their story, like, they broke their leg, but they came back, and then something else happened. And they came back, I just think, God, I would have just given up after the first thing, you know, I'm not that person at all. So I have so much admiration from people that do that. But yeah, I I'm a bit I'm a bit the same sometimes. And then I sort of think, ah, who's cooking tea tonight, you know, like, just getting this. I'm just doing doing doing and I'm like, Oh, I lift my head up and go, Oh, what's happening in the world? You know, I think it's as well like, the tension we often have in my house is my husband is a much neater person than I am. So, yeah, I can really, I can live in fields, but like, as long as there's no like dirty food and dishes and that sort of stuff. Like I can absolutely, I can tune it out. It doesn't bother me and I sometimes think, like not to overstate it. That's a gift in life, too. Because I was not someone who when the child was napping, I wasn't like, I'll quickly tidy that never occurred to me. I was there was not going to happen. I can completely relate to that. Like right, what can I do now in 45 minutes? Jumping this just exactly which I think is what you have to do, like, in those early stages in those early days of motherhood. If you are the stay at home and the babies you're doing 90% of the caregiving oh my god you can't be cleaning your house in the 45 minute nap that that child has. No, absolutely. Just makes me weary thinking about it actually. I know. But you also have to be tolerant like you have to be able to stand the mess Oh, that's the thing, isn't it? You do but you do you get you get used to a level of discomfort that then sort of disappears it's like I can handle that being there can i Yes, I can but I don't even say anymore it's absolutely spotless. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. So do you feel I know your children are six and eight, they're very capable of seeing what's happening around them. Is it important to you that they see what you're doing and what you're contributing to the world? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. And they are really proud of that to my son in particular, is, I think, my best PR agent in the world, he will always tell when he talks to his teachers and says all mums, you know, last year, he was saying all mums written a book. And this year, he was like, Can I take the book in for my teacher and to this fit, like, he tells everyone, we went into a bookshop recently, and my book was on the shelf. And he was quite a small shop. And he was very loudly, ma'am, there's your book, and I was sort of, like, cost cash Don't, don't don't. And then when we came out, and he's like, You should be so proud. Why why, you know, like, really, really sweet. So I think it's really positive for them. I think I didn't grow up in a household that, you know, when people talked about where they were artistic people in it, people read a lot and, you know, went to theater and shows and likes things, but the idea of doing it yourself was pretty foreign. So I really liked that that's a possibility for them. But they also, and I think this is good to see that you're generally not going to make a living from it, it will bring you great joy, you can have a lot of success with it. But from a fiction writing perspective, it would be 20 authors in Australia, you know, a pretty small number that get to write full time. Yeah. Yeah. So they're learning early on the realities of hanging out? Well, that it's it coexists. And it's an important part of life. But it's you might not want to put all your eggs in that basket, but also, equally, you might want to retreat, arrange your life, so that there's space for that. So you know, you can, you don't have to work full time, you don't have to, you know, be ambitious, I think we look so much to work as to give people fulfilment. And I think that's not a message that my kids get, not to say that you can't enjoy work. And that work, you know, I work in the environmental space and sustainability stuff, I think is, is really important. And so I want them to understand that responsibility. But also that, that creativity is an important thing, too, because we look so much to sport in Australia. And, and, and I know sport has a health dimension, but so did the arts. And you can pick up all those skills around teamwork by being in the theater or dancing or, you know, it's doesn't need to be so singular. Yeah, I had a conversation with the, for the podcast with a lady who is overseas, and we were talking about what happened during COVID. What stopped and what didn't stop. And I was just like, reflecting on the fact that even though they were locked down to the restrictions, hundreds of male footballers were allowed to move around this country like COVID didn't exist. But then on the other hand, every performer, you know, anyone who was doing something in the public eye that wasn't bored, just had the rug pulled out front of them, it was just really, really showing what caught our culture in Australia values. And it was really sad. Absolutely. And meanwhile, you know, 99% of the population are watching Netflix and consuming the culture that that artists produce is when I said to someone, like, everything that we touch, everything that we listen to, and we consume has been made by someone, a creative person has made that and I think we forget that, that. It's like, if we cut the arts off, you wouldn't have the radio, you wouldn't have the TV, you wouldn't have your Netflix, you wouldn't have music, you wouldn't have, you know, houses, you know, everything would start you wouldn't be driving a car because now we'll be creating, you know, beautiful cars, it would just everything would stop. And no one thinks about it in that way, like the government said. It's yeah, it's hugely disappointing. And I think that valuing of not only sport, but male sport, yes. Is just makes it particularly disappointing particularly, you know, given the role models that sports men often playing, there are a lot of issues that I think the creative types are Uh, you know, more across. You don't see them in the paper, you know, upon sort of sexual assault or harassment charges and those sorts of things, or sitting sitting in hotel rooms, snorting cocaine or something. I don't know. Sorry, maybe maybe they're doing it, but we just don't know. better at not getting caught. That's right. No, honestly, it really has been a massive eye opener, and not in a very nice way. Would you do you have anything else that you wanted to share? Like what you've got coming up? I mean, you mentioned that you've got like your official launch? Do you want to share? Sort of? I think I've got a few festivals there'll be at I could share about Yeah, so I will be at Queenscliff and Williamstown writers festivals at those. I'm talking with Tony Jordan, who is an author that I'm a huge fan of. So that feels like a very special moment. And I'm also going to Bendigo, where I will be thinking a session with Kate talking about the first time podcast, I think we're doing a live recording. Oh, cool, beat a lot of fun. And so those are coming up in May and June and the details will be on my website. Awesome. That is so cool. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just been so nice. So nice. So nice to think about creativity and kids. Like this feels like the podcast version of Rachel's book. That's incredibly flattering. Thank you. I think that's what we need. Like it has a bigger impact on women than it does on men to adventive children. Absolutely. Yeah. He's good. Keep up the good work. Likewise, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.