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Pariya Ziakas Australian visual artist and art educator S1 Ep06 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Pariyah Ziakas is a painter and high school teacher, perhaps best known in Mount Gambier for her stobie pole project. She is mother of 2 "gremlins' and in this episode we chat about how her children are an integral part of her art, how they support her practice and encourage her to see the world through different eyes. Pariyah shares how she encourages her children to chase their dreams, and how she has built a family unit where everyone contributes. **This episode contains discussion around premature birth** Connect with Artscapes Creatives to find upcoming events instagram / Website Pariyah instagram - Podcast - instagram / website Music in this episode used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... elcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from artists and creative mothers sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mum and continue to make art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Perea. Z. ARPUs. Perea is a painter and high school teacher, perhaps best known in Mount Gambier for her Stobi poll project. She is a mother of two children, who she affectionately referred to as the gremlins. This episode contains discussion around premature birth. Welcome to the podcast prayer. It's wonderful to have you here today. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's a pleasure. I'm a little bit familiar with you as an artist, I follow you on Instagram and see what you're up to. But for those people that might not be familiar with you and your work, could you give us a rundown of this sort of art that you do. You're also a school teacher, so maybe just sharing a little bit about how you got into art? what you've been up to that kind of thing? Yeah, of course. So I guess not many people would actually probably know my art practice, they probably would know me more as that lady that painted the Stobi poles and the art teacher as well. So it's kind of when I was at university. Obviously, I was studying an undergraduate but that was when I kind of really found my passion. Had lots of exhibitions Miss met lots of like minded people as well. Unfortunately, with everything that happens life, you know, move back to mat Gambia after my mom had passed away. And all of those other aspirations kind of put on were put on the back burner, and I did my teaching degree. So it wasn't until recently, probably about 2019 that I've actually returned to my own artmaking. So it's been a very long process. So I've always had this interest and passion for the body and movement. Law lot of the artwork that I was producing at university was based around my husband and my relationship. So I used to do a lot of figurative work. So linking in the bodies, and then kind of went into abstraction, a lot of surrealist pieces. However, now I'm finding that more of a lot more of my artwork is becoming more about my environment around me and the influences of the Gremlins, obviously, still my husband, but just you know, that my external environment around me at the moment. So do you remember how you got into art when when you were younger? Was it something that was sort of in your face? I do. I remember, we lived in Lucerne Dale when I was younger. And I remember my teacher and Ted did this candle making. And they entered the into the little Delfield days and I won. I won, I won 50 cents an hour. It was amazing. But I just I mean, it wasn't just the money, but I just remember I remember thinking how much fun I had with the whole making experience. And then I guess from then I just I remember as a kid just doing lots and lots of sketches and just having copious folios just, you know, scribbling in all the time, and definitely in my teenage years, obviously, studying art and design as well. And I had a brilliant teacher when I was in Year 12, who I currently work with as well. So Leah Fox is amazing. So yeah, so that's always been a big part of my life. I guess. It's just, you know, finding that time to explore and experiment. Yeah, for sure. And you're not only being a school teacher you also run classes and events for the community as well like anyone can come along and do do classes with you. So recently a another local artist and myself So Ruth Stevenson and I work colleagues but we're also local artists and she and I have been providing second paint sessions in my Gambia. So we we kicked off with the fringe event this year, kind of feels like Yeah, so we kicked off our fringe event and we we are hashtag two girls painting so Artscape with one works is what we call ourselves and we've had such a positive some feedback from the community that we ran another session with one Suncoast pantry as well. And another question that Caroline hills and then another one at NARA, obviously, you know, we did have unplanned for this weekend. And unfortunately with the lockdown, we've had to postpone that for now. So but we are still most definitely looking at creating more and more experiences for their community to actually be a part of. So yeah, definitely jump on board, check us out on Instagram. And you'll see more and more of us coming out lately, the projects? Do you think that the concept of being able to drink wine while you paint is a really tantalizing sort of draw for people who might be nervous about painting, but then the inhibition sort of disappear a little bit with that with that one? I think I definitely think so. And I think the space that we that Ruth and I are providing is a fun, safe space. So you know, people feel as though they are not being judged. You know, there's there's no real criticism, they can basically express themselves. And a lot of these sessions have seen groups of people coming in and enjoying that time together. So you know, whether it's a birthday, or it's just a girls night out, we've had also we've had, it's not just for females as well. So we've had male participants as well who have really enjoyed themselves. But yeah, definitely, as you say, we've definitely found that, you know, that glass of wine helps sort of free those inhibitions. However, we also have a number of participants who don't partake in that alcohol sign and you know them I have a mocktail, or they're just completely experienced, so, which is really nice to see. So in the support, everything that we perceive has been amazing. Do you so obviously you're finding more women are coming to the classes? Yeah, I think so more, obviously, more women than men deciding to participate, I think just because it's a little bit more of a, you know, that whole idea of a girls night out, you know, the afternoon with the girls as well. So, however, the event we had at Canara, we had a handful of male participants there as well. And they were really surprised with the night and how they actually went and what they were able to actually create as well. And what we love is what I'm loving is that the intimate the individuality that's coming out out of all of these sessions as well. So, you know, we give guests samples and you know, this is potentially what you could create. However, at the end of the day, if you want to do a landscape, but we presented you with a still life, then go for it. It is all about that artistic interpretation. So yeah. Expressive. Yeah. Yeah. Fun. Yep. That's that's social aspect and that community sort of aspect more than it's not about creating something that has to be perfect and it's going to be critique. That's, that's wonderful. So you mentioned briefly your Gremlins, you affectionately refer to your children? Yeah. Tell us about them. The gremlins? Yes. So, my oldest daughter is her name is Ciara and she is eight. And then my son Trey is seven years old. And yes, I affectionately call them the gremlins. I just remember, you know what I was like, I remember when I was babies, and they used to feed. It was just this. It was like they could not stop that were like little animals. Just, I just remember saying to my husband once. Well, they like gremlins. They're just in anywhere and it just kind of stuck. And yeah. So but they're amazing. They probably one of my biggest supporters throughout this whole artistic venture. They just yeah, they love seeing what mums going to create. What's what's you know, what's the next project and our our lounge room slash kitchen slash dining area is now mums, makeshift studio space. It's everywhere. It definitely involved in it. It's right there they are. Yeah, yeah. They are very much a part of my making process more so than I realize I think especially with the concepts and the ideas that I have. A lot of work come from them. They're such they're such animated individuals, those two they could play for hours and hours on end, just imagination play. They, it's amazing to watch. And we still the conversations that we have. I remember doing a concept. And it was, you know, my daughter just asked me her mom, what does? What does the rainbow tastes like? You know, what about clouds? You know, what do you think they taste like? And then what would happen if we nibble this together? What if we took them camping would be so amazing. But yeah, it's it's that childhood imagination. That's pretty magic. It allows you to sort of think about things in a different way that you probably haven't thought of for a long time. Oh, absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Not take life so seriously, sometimes. And your children actually appear in your work as well. I've noticed on the Stobi polls, they you're a little Yes. If you're in there. They do they. As I said, they have such a big part of my art making, I guess that whole experience of you'll notice I've already I've got two concepts on the poles. One's on my daughter, she's in her dance gear. You might notice that baby panda is their toy. Yeah, her toy. Teddy is the fifth member of our family. And I swear, that is the luckiest Panda, toy panda ever, that PanDa has been to Europe, Asia, it's been around all parts of Australia. My husband has run back to blocks in Rome, because she left it at a b&b in Rome. So he's during the back, we've been home and he's driven all the way back to Millicent because she left baby panda at the playground. Oh, I know. So yes, they are very much a part of my artmaking I think I kind of feel like it would be a real disconnect if they weren't. For me, personally, as I said, it's, you know, you're with your children, a lot of the time and the conversations that we have, and I feel as though you know, from when I started from 2019. Until now, I'm really starting to see my skills and my art practice start to develop a little bit more, as well. And they are very much a part of that as well. Is it important to you that they are a part of it, like you want them to know what you're doing? And that art is so important in your life? You want to give them that sort of appreciation for having having a an outlet, I suppose. Different to you? Yeah, absolutely. I definitely do. I, you know, everything that I do, artists, not just artistic way, but the events that we've that I've been running with roof with a sip and paint. I don't keep anything like that from them. So they know exactly what I'm doing. And they helped me with my Instagram posts, because I'm not great. And it takes a really long time. And I'm still learning up. I've only joined Instagram in the past two years. And Facebook as well. So it's it's been an eye opener for me, but they are such an encouragement. And they also tell Mom, you're doing a really good job. But what do you think about using this picture instead of this picture? And then they'll come out with colors? And it's just it's yeah, it's a really nice, I want them to be able to see that if they are passionate about something, then they can go for it. And there's no, there's no limit. I don't want them to just settle for oh, well, you know, this is life. So but you know, something they can they need to go and work for and make it happen that makes them happy. Mom guilt or that sort of, I know that that's a word that the society sort of throws around. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Ah, I've always had that mum guilt, even before I became a mum or even before I started that are making. I'm a very sort of, you know, give 150% to everything that I do. And when I started teaching, that was very much how I was, you know, I wanted to really sort of feel comfortable in that space. And I remember returning back to work, I returned full time because my husband and I husband and I swap so he stayed at home with the gremlins. So he was at home for four years and then I was at work and you know, the teaching teachers and teaching life is very, it seems to be continuous. You know, you don't kind of just Nish walk out that door at four o'clock. You don't you know, your mind doesn't quite always switch off so it's when I'm not playing it's, you know, I'm marking or I'm planning I'm always doing something so yeah, there was always that little bit of guilt. They felt and I I always have that anyway, I think, I don't know whether you have that as well. But it's not just that mum guilt. It's like, it's the wife guilt. It's the friend guilt. It's the WHEN DO WE it's very hard to make time for everybody. I think now I think more. So it's important for me to realize that not to think of it as mum guilt anymore, but but realize that I think they need to have a better version of mum. And if Mum needs to be in that creative space, then they're going to get a better version of me, rather than me sort of trying not to be in that creative space, if that makes sense. No, it makes perfect sense. So it's something that you require for yourself to make you the person that you want to be to present to your children, I suppose. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And they can see, you know, they see the difference that makes in me, as well, as my husband is the same. It's, I've, I now understand, you know, I will be 40 next year. But now I understand how important it is just to have that time and to take that time. And it's, you know, we shouldn't feel guilty about it. Because when we don't take that time, it's like, you bottle all of that energy up. And then unfortunately, that becomes really toxic. And I don't want that to happen. So often, I can't be creative. And I'm not the the best version of myself for them. Absolutely. You mentioned about your husband, being at home with the kids while you went back to work, that level of support that you had, it's it's so important, isn't it having having that around you to be able to achieve what you want to do not just in your art, but you know, your your working life, which is so much to do with our kids too, to see that. There are other ways for families to function. Isn't this just traditional mom stays at home or dad goes off to it? Yeah, absolutely. They he Yeah, he is a an amazing role model for the gremlins. You know, it's, we'll try to see that, like you said, it's not just the females role to do the cooking and the cleaning, and do the washing and take care of the kids. It's, you know, we share that role. And we we are a family units like everyone contributes as well. And, you know, we'll raise the Gremlins that way as well. Mum and Dad Don't do anything for you. We you know, we don't call it chores, it's about helping the family unit and helping us function as a really positive family unit. So, you know, there are times when my and my son has said, you know, I didn't like clean my room cleaning my room, but I know I have to get it done. I'm like, Yeah, exactly. That's right. And if you don't get it done, I'm gets really angry. And then she uses that really loud mumble is that you don't like so just cleaning up. So yeah, but no, it's been such an amazing support and through everything I am. I'm like, Oh, my ideas are like, whoa, I've got so many things going on. And then I said, Hey, I've got this idea. And when I make this happen, I want to do this, I'm gonna do that. And then he'll just really calmly go, okay, so how are you going to make this happen? What are some of the things to think of so he's very much that town, he'll bring back down to earth and go, I think, Ah, damn, so right. Okay, hang on. What I can do this part of it. Maybe not just all of it right now. The and he got any remarks? And he says, Well, you know, remember you are you work full time. When are you going to do the rest of this? Okay, well, do you know what? There's some of the weekends, I can do things on the weekends, and I can do things work, and I can. But he never says no way, which is great. Yeah, so he's like, he's that little sort of balance the balance to your enthusiasm, but without shutting it down. It's it's molding and finding the ways that it can you actually happen. Yeah. He just, I think, because he knows if he shuts it down. I'm just like, oh, but what is? What if we did this instead? Like what do you think about this instead? So yeah, I said to him in lockdown when I said, I really want to paint the stove with poles. And he said, right. Hey, and do that might just email counsel and see what happens. So and I kind of scrolled on from there so he would prime the stove poles and pressure clean them and bring things bring me things when I forgotten things when I'm at the polls. I need I need this creek. Can you read this? Yeah, yeah, that's what I was like when I was at crowded streets. So I've left this color at home. Could you please just bring it really quickly? Just pop the Gremlins in the car won't take very long. Do you find yourself? Like when you're moving around town, whether you're driving or walking, you're just constantly looking at blank spaces like I could paint on there. It's like you read my mind all the time and the grandmas say it now too. They go, Mom, he would love that worldspace Mom, there's this fencing and it's just plain. Yeah. So this, they find the spaces all the time. And because I started in our hallway, as well, so painters, it's not quite finished yet, but we made it a bit of a family project. So they started I let them have a space down the bottom of each of the walls and then I would just go over the top and create but yet that I haven't finished. After that I went to the letterbox. After the letterbox I went to the store reposts. And then you went to the arcade as well. You've done? Yes, yeah. Yeah, so Ruth and I collab did a collaboration with that one. So we applied for the Creative Arts Fund last year to be able to work in that space. And I, I don't know if you remember, like, it's almost I vaguely remember what it was like, but just walking through that space, it was just so gloomy and just didn't have that inviting appearance about it. And the idea of a celebration of dance was actually roofs, main idea. And then we worked in together to actually create the actual mural space itself. It's like, over 20 meters long. So yeah, it's amazing now and I walked in there last week, or maybe the week after, to the Gremlins down there, to pick up dinner and just had been down there at night time. And I had to record it because it just it just looks so much fun. And they still love it. They still love sort of weaving through the polls and, you know, running along and you know, doing all the little poses of the silhouettes. So yeah, it's just opened it up. And so many people have just said that it's become such a more inviting and a real a lot safer space, they feel a lot safer in that space to walk down as well. That's a good point. Yeah. When you had your children, were you using art then as a sort of a tool to to spend time within yourself like as your own sort of outlet? No, nothing. I had, it sounds really odd, but I I was not doing any form of art making. So when I finished university, as I said, after my mum passed away, I spent one more year at uni wasn't a full year. So I finished my degree, and then we moved back to my Gambia because I had a younger sister. So I wanted to be with them. And then I didn't do anything. I just went and did my teaching degree. And then I needed to be here I'm at Gambia, and then I got a teaching position. And just from there, I just went, I went straight into teaching and I just sort of gave that 100% And then I had the Gremlins and I just remember when Chara she or she didn't sleep, so she liked the first I remember saying to my sister, when I got home, I rang my sister and I was not happy. I said how I said you're a bitch. You didn't tell me any of this. You didn't tell me that this was what it was going to be like she said to me, I keep I'd said anything. You wouldn't have any kids. I just that first night we bought her home, she slept for 15 minute intervals. And like when we were in the hospital, she was the only baby that you could hear crying. Myself and my husband quite a bit of time to actually get her settled in. I didn't know I was so naive. I just thought babies did the wrong thing. I thought all they did was eat and sleep. And they had to teach them how to breastfeed. Oh, yes. Sasha. Emotional you know motherhood Is it strange enough? Uh, but you know, it doesn't come with a manual and it's yeah, it just took me a really long time to get my mind around that but then we had Chara and try so close together. So I got pregnant with Trey when Ciara was six months old. And then he was born with the earliest so he was born at 26 weeks. So we had such a tumultuous time like we spent 10 weeks in Adelaide. Ah, just so many things were going on. But I did keep a journal though I kept a journal when I used to do lots of little sketches in there. So here's two books are filled, which I've actually learned to two other friends who've had kids prematurely. So they've really got a bit of support from that and be the help from that. So, but yeah, I didn't, and then nothing happened until, yeah, sort of end of 2018 2019 I started kind of, you know, they'll both backups, they were both at school. So I felt as though I had a bit more time for me. And then the other big thing is putting yourself out there, as well as not just a person, but just as an artist, you know, actually, I've always been really self conscious about doing that. So it took me a while to go, Well, you know what, I can do this, I, you know, if people want to judge and that's fine. And then, yeah, I set up the account, my sister helped me out. It was like back and forth over the phone for about a month. And she's, I know, you're not doing this right, you get up like this. And then, anyway, yeah, I'm 2019 I started creating work. And I'd entered a couple of competitions, all unsuccessful. I've entered a few art competitions, and none of them have been successful. But I'm really proud of myself, because I'm getting myself out there. And practicing, I'm making I'm, you know, being critical of myself and challenging myself, which is, I think, a really big move for me, you know, three years of actual actively making for me, but also for my family has been just exactly what my soul has needed. So you briefly mentioned the Gremlins are doing the we're helping out with the painting in the hallway? Are they like artistic, they're following your footsteps in that sort of way they love their painting and, and that they do? Yeah, they I think my son has a bit more patience, when it comes to sort of the more hands on sort of sculpture work, he loves that side of it. Whereas Chara has a lot more patience with with renderings, so blending colors together. So she's really finding that knack. However, I can't tell them, you know, just because I'm an art teacher, and myself doesn't mean that they're gonna listen to me because they know better. I'm just back off. And I know, I know what I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. I don't want to try and blend, you know, these two different tones of green together because I know what I'm doing. But ya know, they any sort of that that creative side, they both have piano lessons. And she does calisthenics? Yeah, they're very, very creative, but they will often make me these little notes with characters and you know, it's Have a nice day, Mom, you're the best mom in the world kind of type thing. So which is really, really sweet. So yeah, I am. That yeah, I definitely that artistic side. I can see from both of them. That's wonderful. 26 weeks is very early, isn't it? Yeah, it is very early. Yes. He was a big surprise. Yeah. Big surprise. I I remember that day, we were doing Christmas photos. So we're trying to get Chara to stay on. Just stay still, essentially. And she kept like so anyway, they wouldn't have gone out to mow the lawns. And I just when I woke up that morning, I didn't feel right. I felt really uncomfortable. And I felt a bit sore. But, you know, after you have the first one, you always kind of think, oh, that's normal, because body's already shifted in so many different ways. And you've got this other child that you're carrying. Sorry, I just didn't think anything of it until I actually went to pick her up and I dropped him I couldn't actually yeah, it was I was in that much pain. So he came in and but yeah, it was by the time we got to the hospital. I was already four and a half centimeters dilated. So yeah, they tried to stop all my contractions and everything but I didn't work so they I had him here. It just so happened that day that I had him every single specialist was actually in town. Yep, highly recommend having a baby during the day. That's really helpful. So he was born on Tuesday afternoon. And yeah, but they were amazing. Dr. Weather all delivered him. And they I saw him for about five seconds, and they put him into a sandwich bag, he fit into a little sandwich bag, put him into a little sandwich bag, and MedStar came and got him. And he flew to Adelaide with my husband. So then I had to stay that night because I had an emergency C section. So and then my sister in law kind of got Chara, and she and that's the longest that we've actually the first time the longest we've actually spent away from beer. So she stayed in that Gambia for seven days. And then they drove up to Adelaide after that. So yeah, wow. an ordeal? Absolutely. But it's lovely that you were able to use your journals that you wrote to share with others to help with them experience. Yep. Yeah, I just, I remember what it was like. And I first deal on if we can offer them any sort of support. I said, I'll do it. So yeah, I've always said the moment that's my sister's friends that are in Adelaide at the moment. So they've got the journals, and they've got the little Teddy's that he's had, as well. So yeah, it's not a it's not an easy, easy thing to go through. It's like, you know, up and down, and I couldn't imagine. And these couples, the two couples that are going through it, this is their first child. So you imagine, you know, not even have that not even having that experience first, and then having your very first child and not knowing whether they're going to survive is just heartbreaking. Having to make so many decisions for your child is Yeah, it's really, yeah, as I said, heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah, but he is like, if you meet him, he is you won't even you won't even tell that he was Prime baby. He is like 200% My me like things happening all the time. For me. He's He's exactly like me. He is like, he cancelled his brain off. He's, he's like, City's active all the time. He has to be moving. To the point where even when he was a toddler, he would fall off his dinner chair quite often because he just can't sit still. Always. raring to go. He just wants to get in and get things done. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I always say that that's why he came early. Because he just yeah, that's it just couldn't why? Oh, yeah. Think I, I actually have a really strong network of friends like a very strong group of friends. So and they amazing women who are so creative, not specifically artistically, but the creative in their own way. You know, they run their own businesses. One is a works with hair and makeup. She's built her business from the ground up, another one, runs her own restaurant with her husband, once again, built their business from the ground up. Another one has just recently opened, started her own business from home. And my other girlfriends are just so strong, not necessary. Ly, about that. female empowerment, but it's just about the strength that they have. Individually and not realizing it. I think that's just, I think I really wanted to be able to talk about that and just say that, you know, they, I'm so proud of them. And they inspire me more than they know, I think. And they're all mothers and they all have their own beautiful creative side. But they as I said, they're so strong and they don't even realize it most of the time I think that is exactly what I did for so long. I think you know, not valuing my own process for a long time and not realizing that I actually really need this as well. And now that I'm doing it, I am so much better for it. And the family unit is so much better for it. I mean, not all the time because mom is always busy behad in a good way. You know they love going to bed and I've just started a piece and then they wake up in the morning and they see it and they just go wow Mom, did you do this awesome. Oh, okay, yeah, I'm Sam. Um, I've got, um, like magic magic wand, and it just happened. So they so proud of you. It's pretty sweet. Yes, beautiful you have anything else coming up that you wanted to share? Well, definitely had to take your girls painting Artscape. So Ruth and I are definitely still going to be working with and planning more events, obviously, just with the COVID locked down restrictions at the moment, it just means that it's just been pushed back a little bit, but we're still, it's all still happening. I'm still going to be making. So I've actually got a canvas that I actually started last week. So that's pretty exciting. So I'm definitely still, as I said, earlier, I'm still entering all these different art competitions, and I'm just gonna still sort of not be successful, but I'm still gonna do it. It's, you know, what's out there? What is important? So, yeah, it is a big step. Isn't it though saying, I'm willing to fail, basically, like you're willing to say, I want people to know who I am. And I don't mind, you're not the best at it. But I just want to share what I've got, I suppose, yeah, I'd like to see my artwork out there. I think I love that's the great thing about social media about Instagram is that you can make connections with somebody from across the world. And even with everything that is happening out there happening now this pandemic that we're seeing ourselves living through, you know, I'm making connections with artists from England, and I'm making connections with artists from all different parts of the world. But the fact is that at the moment, he made that artistic process, it's getting a lot of people through COVID. And the loneliness that some people might feel, you know, being on that online platform is, is that little bit of support, as well. And you know, if you can scroll some of those pages and see some artwork, some amazing processes coming through, and that might help somebody then I think that's beautiful. Absolutely. And it is it's so important right now that we do stay connected, even though we're not, we're not next to each other. But we're we're still communicating. And like you said, if someone can see something you've painted, and just take some comfort from that, I suppose. And again, they make that so important. Yeah. bring a smile to someone's day. I always say choose kind. Thank you so much prayer. It's been an absolute pleasure having you and sharing with us and all the best. Thank you so much for having me. I've loved talking to you. I thank you. Yeah, it's been great. Take care of yourself, and stay safe, and enjoy time with your family. Yeah, thanks so much prayer. It's been lovely. Thanks, Alison. Perea would like to thank Tracy Davies from gorilla art group in Adelaide, who helped her with her Stobi poll painting project, not a new concept, but a new initiative in the Gambia. And Perea was really proud to have brought

Janelle Thomas Dubai based singer + songwriter S2 Ep64 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Janelle Thomas, a singer, songwriter and performer based in Dubai, UAE. and a mum of 2 boys. Janelle begin performing at the age of 5, at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons, and played in the high school Marching Band playing clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20's deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music at Concordia College in Montreal. Her day job wasn’t satisfying her, and fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for 4 months. Without really knowing where Oman was, she said yes! That was 16 years ago and she has performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract, when he joined the band as the guitarist and they have been together ever since. Janelle and Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015, they continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting two wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud, high-voltage 5-7 piece pop cover bands (as bandleader and musical director, respectively). Under the guise of "Lady J Duo" they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics, and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary, good-vibes-only listening experience that is elegant, yet funky. In the Autumn of 2012 they released Noise Rises (Strange Cat Records), an album of retro-inspired funky soul, featuring ten original songs they wrote together. In the spring of 2020, during the Dubai Covid-19 lockdown, Janelle and Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity, showcasing their favourite tunes, taking on-the-spot requests, and cameos by their firstborn Theo (a natural show-stealer). They continued these for 18 months. You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast today, and her music is used with permission. Connect with Janelle website / facebook / instagram Podcast - instagram / website You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast, and her music is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast this week. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Janelle Thomas, a singer songwriter and performer based in Dubai in the UAE, and a mom of two boys. Janelle began performing at the age of five at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons and played in the high school marching band on clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20s deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music at Concordia College in Montreal. her day job wasn't really satisfying. And fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for four months. without really even knowing where Oman was. She said yes, that was 16 years ago, and she's performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract when he joined the band as the guitarist. Janelle And Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015. They continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting to wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud High Voltage five to seven piece, pot cover band as bandleader and musical director respectively, under the guise of the Lady J. God, Lady J. bein Janelle, they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary good vibes only listening experience that is elegant yet funky. In the autumn of 2012. They released noise rises through strange cat records are an album of retro inspired funky soul, featuring 10 original songs that they wrote together in the spring of 2020. During the Dubai COVID-19 lockdown, Janelle And Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity showcasing their favorite chains, taking on the spot requests and featuring cameos by their firstborn Theo and natural show stealer. They continue these for 18 months. You're here Janelle is amazing vocals throughout this podcast today, and their music is used with permission. I hope you enjoy today's episode Gavin lane, got a fistful. Gonna run that bill will be the end of a long route backwards dad. No place my hands. Man and we're all gonna say welcome Janelle. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me. Allison. I'm excited. Yeah, so I can I can hear your lovely accent. You're from Canada. Is that right? I am. I'm from Canada, but I live in Dubai. Alright, so what how like, how long have you lived there for what sort of brought you there? So while the music Yeah. So my husband and I have been together 16 years. He's also Canadian. And we started traveling in a band. So So we were playing hotel residencies in the Middle East and throughout Asia. We did that for about eight, nine years. And then it brought us to Dubai. So we've been here since January 2015. And we're residents here now. And we've had two little boys here. So this is this is home for the time being. Yeah. So these are really hot there. Let the moment super hot. Yeah. I just got in from the pool. So I'm okay at the moment. But yeah, summers are very long they and very hot, especially with small kids. You really feel it so much more, because you're basically just inside for five months? Yeah, but it can get up to 50 degrees Celsius. Sand humid. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, the outdoors is kind of non existent, aside from if you're doing something in the water. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. With us being from Canada, we do have a bit of that experience. Because you'll have really cool times in the winter, where you don't go outside, you're not gonna go take a stroll or take your baby out or anything. But they don't tend to be constant, you know, you'll have cold days, and then it kind of warms up enough. And you pack on your layers and you go outside, whereas when it's hot, it's just hot. Yeah. Because you can't do anything you Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we used to find this. Okay. And since we had kids, we just find them brutal. So we're just counting down till October. Oh, my gosh. So what's like an average sort of when it when it's not so hot? What's the weather like, then? So lovely. You know, there's kind of six months of a year where it's gorgeous. And you kind of can't think about living anywhere else. So I would say sort of the coolest it gets probably in January, maybe days that are around 20 to 25. But Sunny, and gorgeous. It's perfect. Yeah, I mean, those are the times where I find it too cold to go swimming. I say that as a Canadian where I grew up swimming in icy lakes. But yeah, I get I get in the water now. And it's the season you sort of, you're sort of forced to do things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you had your own choice. If you lead with me. Love you. So tell me about how you got into music because it's something you've always done. Yes. And no, you know, probably like a lot of musicians always been a music lover. There was always lots of music in our house, my parents, neither of whom are musicians, but we had, you know, huge record collection. And there was always lots of singing and dancing that was encouraged. So, actually, I started performing. From age five, I lived in a really small town, and we had we had little ballet school. And that, for me was everything like those ballet recitals at the end of the year, you know, with costumes and makeup and lights. So I would say that that's where it all started was was there. So for the first few years, I danced, I took piano lessons, as you do. And then when it was time to go to high school, actually, I chose to go to high school in the big city, which was Montreal. My dad used to commute he drove back and forth. So actually I commuted with him like super early mornings and stuff like that, to go to high school. But I really wanted that school because it was the only one in the city that had a marching band. I was in the marching band and nerd for years playing the clarinet. And I played the trombone for a year. And then after that, you know sort of spent my 20s I think sort of struggling with am I going to be an artist? Can I be an artist? Or should I get a real job? You know, I did do a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music. Yeah, because when it was time for university, I thought I really like to do something I enjoy. I might spend three years enjoying myself and then need to become an accountant or something serious, but give it a go, you know? Yeah, and then just sort of bounce back and forth, did some contracts, then some admin work and then would be, you know, kind of happy with the lifestyle of neither. But it just kept pulling me back in I really was miserable when I was being an administrator even though I had some great jobs and lovely people. Have you know, and there was just a moment where I realized, like, I cry before I go to work every day at this very nice job. It's just such a nice job for somebody else. It's not for me, I can't do this. I'm only 26, whatever, to have given up. And so actually chance meeting with a musician I knew. And he said, We've just lost our singer. And we have a gig in Oman. And do you want to join our band and travel for four months? And I said, okay, and then said, Where's omen? While it's kind of next to Dubai, it was okay. But I never heard of it. So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, like when, and it was really different experience starting to travel then I mean, we had an app and there was no, YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was none of that kind of even the amount of information that you'd have was limited. It was people's blogs, and, you know, blurry photos and that kind of thing. So it was a relatively scary and endeavor to embark on. I think the thing that saved me is the four guys in the band that I went with, had all been there the year before. So they did have lots of first hand experience. But of course, coming from Canada and traveling to the Middle East for my first real big overseas adventure, let some preconceptions about how it's going to be and I thought, well, I'll just do four months, and then I'll go home. And then 16 years later. Still here. So your husband's musical as well. You guys played together? Where did you make the line? So I met him after that first contract. So actually, I did one conch. I did one more than he's done. So I joined here Monday. Oh, yes, we're totally keeping score, who's played more show? So I joined the band in January and somehow got asked to be the bandleader. I really feel it was by default, because everyone else in the band was French Canadian. And I was the only one who spoke English. And with my administrative background, I spoke good business English. So, you know, I would have the current bandleader coming to me and saying, Can you help me formulate this email? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't start it with Pedro. You know, it has to be a little more formal than that. So he kind of went, well, could you just do it? I was like, Okay, I guess so. So I certainly took on all the admin tasks, which also involves liaising with any of the agents or hotels that we were, you know, that we were dealing with, because these are five star properties, you know, the Grand Hyatt and Hilton and everything, like you needed to kind of be a little bit more on it than that it was the time. So we did the one gig. And then we went back to Montreal for this summer and made a couple of changes to the lineup, the guitars that we had was leaving. And so we went through about oh, my gosh, seven guitarists trying to find a good fit. And finally got Felix who was recommended by a friend of a friend. He was only 22. At the time, he lived in an even smaller town than the one I was from, like, 500 people. And, you know, 20,000 Cows was kind of where he was coming from. He'd never been on a plane. And so for him, it was an equally big adventure. And he, but he was kind of in a place in his life where he wasn't really happy and had just finished his musical education, you know, informally in college, and that, and he sort of same as me with, well, I'll do it for four months. And yeah, and then we got together pretty much right away. So that definitely helped us both feel like this was something that we wanted to stick with. And so yeah, so we've been together a long time. Oh, that's an awesome story. I love that. And isn't it just so typical in the music world? It's like, it's a friend of a friend or someone new this person or it's just the way it goes? Isn't it? Just this connection of people? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, we're very lucky. But that and it's also funny, too, that there's, I'm, you know, the more that I have, the longer that I am a musician, the more I'm amazed by stories of bands who have that longevity, you know, like bands like YouTube, where they have the same members forever. Because I know even in a couple, it can be really hard to have exactly the same vision for the music and the same vision for the timing of how you want things to go. You know, when we had mostly we play as a duo now, but But we spent most of our time together playing with larger groups. And there were lots of fantastic musicians we played with, who would say I'm tired of traveling, I want to go home and be with my other half, or we had someone leave to go to med school. And it was kind of doable, but you're an amazing keyboard player, he was okay. But I want to be a doctor. So, so to realize that not only does the music have to work, but where you are in your life at that time. It has to work like that for people could do that for 30 years. It is it's incredible, isn't it? When you break it down like that you think of all the things that could have changed or gone wrong, or like it's, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's still we actually liking each other and getting on like, right. I'm not saying that about you and your husband? I mean, I'm talking about you too. No, no, no, you can say it about us too. Yeah. Gosh. Adding up your misery causes in the shop, you've been dumped by text, then being slipped. You're wondering what's next, baby. Though life's looking great. You can choose not to decide. I have listened to some of your tracks online, you have got a powerhouse voice. I love your voice. It's I love a bit of built voice. It's so good. passion and energy. Yeah, so did you have like formal lessons for your voice? Or did you just sort of instinctively feel it out and work it out yourself? I've had very few, very few. So I went to university in jazz boys, but have had zero lessons. Before I started I had they went to Concordia, University of Montreal and one of the things I love about their program is they want it to be more inclusive. So unlike some of the other universities that really kind of only take you if you've been through the conservatory stream, or what have you, they just sort of said, if you want to play come audition, first, show us what you can do. And then we'll teach you all the back end, after you know, so. So I was kind of on the edge because I'd had quite a I had a fantastic teacher in high school, you know, but but wasn't quite there. So still needed to do more training, you know that you're training and theory and harmony and all of that to come. So they call that sort of like a zero level to get up to level one to be with everyone else. But but in terms of the singing, I did have contract wasn't really, it really wasn't much. There's only about two semesters of vocal lessons with Jerry Brown, who was their vocal jazz instructor. One of the things I'm really grateful to her for it is she she just gave me a lot of opportunity to get onstage, which I think I really I really needed at that time. As you can see, that's the part that I've hung on to like, gosh, don't ask me any harmony theory now that's long forgotten, but it's still performing. And, and then after that I did. I did a musical review from point and there was a really great vocal coach there as well. So she I mean, the coaching was quite specific to the songs for the show. But she was she came from a musical theater background. So that kind of helps with all that. Belting and being on stage and having to really, again, like project and in a very much like onstage performance way as opposed to recording or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it is so different, isn't it? It's yeah, two completely different things. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of the music that you do, I know, I've seen that you write your husband and yourself right together. And you do have this, but I think the way I can't remember how you worded it now on your website, but it was really clever. It's like you could take any style of song and turn it into your own basically, is that how you look at when you're, you're doing your comments. That wasn't how we started. But that's very much Where to now that we've seen too, just in general, I think I think YouTube has been great for for that for introducing the general audience to kind of the magic of reinterpreting you know, reinterpreting styles, so, especially groups like postmodern jukebox, and we're big fans of scary pockets who do funk covers of whatever, you know. So we've found in recent times, that's gotten a lot of traction for us. And it's also cool because when we spent a decade basically just playing pop music, and lots of songs that we love, and it was, you know, full on big songs, Sweet Child of Mine and Highway to Hell sometimes and all these kinds of things. And now we don't have to lose that repertoire because we can translate it. So we do funk version of sweet child of mine, we do a jazz version of, you know, you shook me all night long. And, and, and sort of, you know, all kinds of other things. And so it's a lot of fun for us, I find in that way, it's a more creative process than it used to be where we were just sort of the cover band who had to, as best as we could reproduce what was on the record. You know, that's what we kind of did for a long time trying to bring life to the album version, but but it was pretty much you know, in the box, and it's not so much now. Yeah, that is good. Because like, I don't, obviously, I don't know what the audiences are like in Dubai, I can only speak from my, my tiny little town, but my sister and I had a lot of experience singing in bands, my sister more than me, but, and I did a lot of covers as a soloist. And sometimes your audience just wants to hear the songs that they know, done in the way that they know. And it can be really challenging to get them past that, and to push them a little bit. So it sort of can be hard to know, like, unless your audience is ready for it can be really daunting to try and put in something else and even like putting in originals is like, you know, is that you can sort of relate to that very much very much. And, you know, the audiences in Dubai are high maintenance, I find that way. They're great. And they love live music. And we, I mean, we have a career as purely full time performing musicians, you know, we don't have other jobs we don't teach, we're so lucky. This is what we've been able to do for 16 years. But at the same time, I think that demands are such from us, the as you said, like if it's Hotel California, just play the solo, don't do anything else they want to sing along, maybe they know this solo, you know, they need to hear it as they know it. So there are some songs where we just kind of were like, we're not even gonna attempt that, that you guys just you need it the way you need it. So that's fine. But actually, it's been surprising that they've been as open as they, as they are to hearing different versions of things, we find there's very few opportunities where they're really open to hearing things that they don't know like in that sort of why we don't one of the reasons why we don't do more original music here. The other reason is we have two small children. We got like no time or brain space to write anything. But also there really isn't the opportunity for that you just and you know it's hard when you're playing and you see everyone's eyes kind of glazing over. Yes, I know that feels like you feel like I've got these people they go and really good and then you put in you think I'll take a chance now putting this out and then it's like dammit, I want to stop halfway through despite all the fire alarm. Oh, it's funny, isn't it it was the story that drew me in. Hell you were so inspired by the man with a Viking didn't know it was just you using views and trying to confuse So you mentioned that the two small children How old are your children? So we have two boys who is four and a half and Hendrix is two. Oh, I love it is a great night. Oh that's good. We figured we have to get away at least we're both your parents are musicians. Yeah. Do something a little little left to center it to each night. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be a shame if you did it. Right. So did they like they enjoy sort of hearing you guys playing the guitar or singing at home? You know what, it's funny actually, we don't do nearly enough playing at home. I think that that's one of the for us. One of the hard things about maybe gigging as much as we do you know, and I hate to say there's anything hard about it because I know we're very blessed but like we're we're tired during the Ha, we're good. So I know other people will say, Oh, you must just grab a guitar and sing along all the time. And I'm just, I'm just trying to keep it quiet. And I talk too much during the day, because I gotta go work tonight. You know, when we do, they love it, obviously, they're totally exposed, you know, there's instruments around, they can play what they want, they can sing a lot. We, during COVID, one of the things we did to sort of stay in touch with people is we started live streaming, it was new for us. But we were locked down here in Dubai. And like, when we had our lockdown, it was locked in a locked down, like we did not go outside of the apartment for 35 days, at one point, everything is very delivery oriented in Dubai, even before COVID. So it was quite easy. So you can still get, you know, your medication or groceries or whatever, it all came to the door. But so we were struggling with being trapped in the house at the time, I was four months pregnant and you know, being trapped together with your husband and your two year old. Boy, it was like, Okay, we were feeling really lonely. You know, so we thought, let's try live streaming. And it just got a great reaction. And we realized, actually, that we'd spent so long making music and traveling for people all over the world, but not are our families and our, our people at home because what we do go home for our one month of holiday. Most years. We're like we don't, we're on holiday, I know, I need a break. And I'm what we used to play in a band, it was always really loud music six days a week. And vocally, I needed a massage, you know, so I could do the next 11 months, that kind of thing. So, so those people just, they don't know, they don't know what we do. So our family and friends were just tuning in in droves, you know, and people also to have their own, you know, lockdown of whatever degree. So we found, especially people who are alone, so, you know, kind of in the moms category, but a lot of these are women who live alone, who were really, really isolated. So being able to come on and see us and and we started bringing Bo on and then it was like, forget it. Like we felt like we played a 55 minute, like opening act. So they didn't come on for the last five. You just have people chiming in, in the chat going to have the open arms. And other people like No, no, it hasn't come yet. Okay, like whatever, like we're just the warm up. But this was lovely. Yeah, it was great to see that, that he had fans. And it was a way to, for us to also share what we have, like it's so we kind of got released, you know, into the wild, maybe sooner than in Canada or the UK. So we were back out and doing activities. You know, before people there were. And so then actually, we sort of started this whole new feature of also just filming the activities that we did. So if we went we took to the or to the aquarium, or we went to the pizza or just rode the metro or whatever. We just filmed them. And it was just kind of, you know, life in Dubai, and he would come on and he would narrate the whole thing, which people love. So he tell him, you know, if we went to the petting zoo, and all that, so yeah, he was super into that. So it's a bit sad that now that we've gotten busier, we don't have the same kind of time to do that. Because I think it was a really special features special time that we ended up doing. Probably about 100, like full hour or hour, it became an hour and a half because an hour wasn't enough, you know. And we played games, we did like a quiz show, and we did all kinds of stuff. I'm disappointed because that would have been amazing. Our Australian friends did have trouble turning it because it was like 12 It was midnight or one in the morning for you know, maybe my nurse friend coming off shift at the hospital. So you catch a bit but that was awkward on is that oh, yeah, I could certainly relate to that. Like, you know, you're doing it for yourself because you need something to keep that creativity sort of going, you know, but yeah, like you said the the upside of that is people on the other end are getting so much out of it. So yeah, my news for Don Yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, it was good. And it's it was really nice to that over the course of the probably about 18 months that we ended up doing it You had to it was kind of starting at just about two, not even two and a half. And so that for me now has been such great memories to preserve to really see him growing. And you hear him singing, and he's singing more in tune as the time goes along, and then his baby, and I'm getting more and more pregnant, you know, and then his baby brothers, and then his baby brother is coming now and singing when we do you know, the two of them sing together and all that. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to share that with with people for whom it's that's also really meaningful to them. Yeah, it's a very small, but very important and significant audience. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. That is, it's a lovely little snapshot to have, isn't it of that period of time in your life yeah. How did you go singing when you were pregnant? Did you find you your breath was affected, like the diaphragm and all that from having this baby? Good times. For out of breath. And super out of breath. Like, both times, actually, I think I was more out of breath in my first trimester than I was at the end, you know. So that was, so when I was pregnant with Theo, we were actually still on our hotel are the very last of our hotel residency gigs. So it was here in Dubai. But it was still three or four nights a week, nightclub Smokies still jumping up and down that kind of thing. Still being expected to do shots with people like I just had to constantly be making excuses for why more I was telling people that I was pregnant, you know. So that would be jumping up and down still having to do, you know, Highway to Hell. And whenever that was tough, that was tough in that sense. And I think once you start showing and you're pregnant, it's, then people understand, oh, yeah, okay, well, you're going to take it easy, you're not going to jump around so much. So then just my feet were killing. But with deal I performed up until so this was 2017. So I performed up until two days before he was born. Because he came three weeks early. Yeah, I was it was supposed to be my last go. And, and even had my friend, our great friend who's the drummer at the time, and he said, you know, you better take it easy, because you don't want your water to break onstage. I think it's totally said as a joke. And it didn't, but it did 20 hours later, like it nearly did. And I thought oh my gosh, it just would have ruined that status. All the cables, like I could just imagine everything's covered in like goop, you know? Yeah, so I did my last show. And then he was born less than 48 hours later. Was it supposed to be like that, but anyhow, he had other plans. So that was, it was great. Like, actually, I love being pregnant and still singing, I felt really good. I felt really healthy. My feet were sore all the time. But But aside from that, the guys I worked with, were super supportive, you know, and, and people loved it, too. You know, we like we are played at Hard Rock Cafe at that time, which is a very, very much a family venue out here. And so you just have women coming up all the time and and remembering their pregnancies. And it just felt really wholesome, kind of like family, family values sort of thing. And that was definitely my plan being pregnant with Hendrix too, but you know, COVID can kind of hit when I was about four months pregnant. So So one of the things they did here in Dubai is in addition to the lockdown then even when we were, you know, kind of free to go out again, there were still really, really tight restrictions on entertainment for quite a long time. So. So even though I was ready, I was like, you know, we've been out of work, went back at it, even though I'm seven months pregnant now or whatever. I couldn't and so, so then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gigs that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it though physically like we did you you must have Like, good birth and everything like good after, or was it like really? I did, like I really, you know, I had great pregnancies and the actual deliveries were a little bit tough at times I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like convinced showing us on this Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage, everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said Hampshire, you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby, like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit. My feet were so swollen. And I thought, you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can. Like, I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just, I couldn't even put my feet in anything. And so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is, please, everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah. But, but I got there. And I really, we, you know, we played three sets. And I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna faint. Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea. I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches. So I couldn't sit. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want a stool. I'm like, no, no, no stool, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like cling on to the mic stand for the first few sets. But you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. So everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see as you know, we've been six months since we've been there. Because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually the third set, good. The third set was better and it was kind of okay, well, this is the power of music that what it can actually do for all of us. But oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Ah, I'll take my hat off to you. Honestly, that's that is amazing. Good on you. Was there ever any question in your mind that you weren't going to do it though? Did you ever think? No, I just No, I cannot do it was like that. I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. It's happening. And you know, I will say that, like six months of unemployment is a really good motivator for that, too. You're just like, yeah, no, no, we need to start having the ball of finances you know, ball financial ball rolling, like ASAP so, yeah, I'm gonna get on stage. Now when I look at it. I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're a crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Good. Take up drinking is Elton cloud syncing, trial fun and give thinking, wow. Get out and founded by Anna less than wrenching. You go up to your head. Do them. How long did were you away from the station before you came back? Four weeks, maybe four weeks? Five weeks? Yeah. It took it took longer. I will say at that time. But I felt good. You know, I felt like I was ready to be back. But of course the first time. I just couldn't imagine the legit sticks of having to leave him like it wasn't even necessarily that I was nervous to leave him with somebody else. Because of course, like, free COVID, right, he was kind of everyone had helped him and everybody, you know, we used to just like people cough, germs all of our babies all the time. So, you know, that was okay, I was comfortable with that. But I could barely figure out like how to get out of the house, in under four hours, you know, when we would have a doctor's appointment? Like I would literally be preparing for that. Hours and hours ahead of time and still be late all the time. You know, I think one of the the differences too is I was breastfeeding exclusively. The he didn't do any auto feeding for the first two months. So that too, I was just kind of like, how does that work? How are they gone? So actually, the first gig that I did with Theo was one that had come in, and it was in our neighborhood. So it was like 10 minutes walk from the house, it just happened. And I thought this one I can do, you know, I can live and it was one that had a kind of a strange pacing for the evening. So in the middle of the evening, there was like a one and a half hour break. And I thought I can do that. I'll just run home, like in my show clothes, and then feed my baby and then run back to the gig and then come back after. Yeah, so it just kind of worked out that that was one and then you know, quite quickly realizing I have to make a compromise somewhere like I can't just be exclusively breastfeeding. If I want to also be on stage I have to be able to be away for four gigs. So but that's a hard, a hard, you know, thing to work out in your head the first time whereas then by the second baby, I was more comfortable with the idea of bottle feeding and then it was easier to step away. Yeah. Oh, good on you. That is awesome. Like, I'm so impressed by that. I'm gonna put a round of applause sound effect through that. But I will tell you on that gig, which was a bit of a venue that anyway, I was very dark for a reason, let's just say and I was literally in the bathroom, like, you know, pumping milk at one point and watching a cockroach crawling across the wall. And I thought, Here I am making food for my baby like I'm trying like I have the hand sanitizer I'm trying to keep everything is getting there's just a cockroach crawling across in front of my eyes. I thought oh my god, what am I doing? But having said that, yeah, exactly. You know that they they survive like, I don't know, I think we get really scared that they're not going to survive without us. And then when they do you go. Oh, actually, this is great. What else can I do now? Let's meet Well, I did anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Sean. Stone, opposing forces. And predictable unknown. Is you the sound? Man, I'll see you on Monday. Was it important to you that you got back to your pre I want to say you pray baby life, because it's never the same, but holding the things that are important to you. You're performing you're singing? Was that like, the top of the list? This is me. I'm going to get back to this as soon as I can. Yeah, very much. I'm, you know, I'm a relatively old mum, as they you know, as they go. So, I was 39 when I had the Oh 42 When When I had Hendrix, and one of the reasons that I hadn't started a family any earlier was that I was the bandleader like I, and the dynamic I think in the band because Felix, the musical director, and I was kind of all the admin bandleader side of things, we were very much Mom and Pop, you know, in kind of the structure of whoever we worked with. So we'd work with basically like five to seven piece bands. And for the most part, like, I felt like those people were my kids, you know, kind of dealing with the feelings and drama and scheduling and making sure everybody had clean clothes and you know, that kind of thing. Because also too, when you're traveling that as a whole other aspect of you know, there are a whole other host of issues that come up where you're kind of like living with people and they're living away from home and all of this so sometimes it was a lot to handle and I thought there's no way I could have a real baby that I need to take care of where this band is my baby, you know, and I also for myself, I If I didn't want to not be able to do everything that I was doing, and, and I knew having a baby would change my life, and I knew that there would be compromises that had to be made, and I was just not in any way ready for that. So, for that reason, too, it was really important to me to perform the whole time I was pregnant, you know, kind of up until the bitter end, it was like, I'm still, I'm still doing everything that I could do, you know, with the exception of bending to plug in cables, to a point where I just cannot get down there. I and so then after baby, it was like, Yeah, I'm back, I'm back. Nothing has changed, you know, of course, everything has changed. But that I really kind of had like a death grip, I think on that element of my identity. And that is, the thing that I think I struggle with most really, is I still get really frustrated that I'm not able to do all the things that I used to be able to do, there was a moment where I was thinking maybe that I would have to even give all this up just because of so unhappy with how that all had gone, it kind of coincided with just sort of what happened in the market here in Dubai, you know, for such a long time, Felix and I had been leading a band. And then some of the people we worked with, left the band because they wanted to move on. And also just in the market, the budgets just got a lot smaller. So all of a sudden, there weren't gigs for five or six people, it was no Oh, to Navy, we can stretch to three. And so I was left feeling. And I know it's an all makes sense, but you know, really feeling that I took my hands like off the crank to have a baby. And it all fell apart. Just like I knew it would, you know, and and it was. And so I felt like a lot of that was my fault. Like, we would have still had van and we would have still had gigs, we would have still been just as like, busy and happy had I not done this, you know. And so that took me a while to get over and to sort of you know, it's not all about me. Like there were also other factors at work just like the economy, that's not all my fault. Yeah, yeah, how you would feel like that, yeah, it's very high. And it's having to kind of work my head around to, to appreciate and, and adapted to what we do now. So. So that was a thing kind of as things shrunk, you know, we sort of went six, five, all the way down to it just being feeling SCI. And and then the gigs changed, you know, and COVID was a big part of that, too, that we've, you know, we were lucky enough for most of the last two and a half years to actually have that live entertainment has been allowed, there was about 10 months where it was, you know, kind of band completely. But because Felix and I were now a small unit, we were more affordable. And because we also moved away from playing the pop music, the B student big band. And instead, we were doing these, like, Jazzy, you know, covers but still have pop music. We found that there were a lot of and also to one of the rules that they only brought back fairly recently is that there was no dancing allowed anymore, because they didn't want people kind of like being close together mingling. So restaurants were allowed and restaurants could have music with the tables had to have social distancing, you know, and all of that. But then actually, we found ourselves really well positioned because we could just set up husband and wife like in a little corner and play these songs that would still have people sort of dancing in their seat, you know, by not getting up it was all at a quieter value. It was actually really popular, you know, and the other things that came with being in a restaurant like gigs that start at 730 I want to be in bed before midnight. Definitely. Certainly, because you know, I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning. No, and there's none of that, you know, slip until all hours so. So I've worked my way around to really appreciate it but it mentally it's there are times there has been a really hard slog you know, and it's probably been about three years of lots of talking to myself and re The assessing if I'm happy with where things are and where they're going, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not to say that there were, you know, not moments of serious self doubt. And, and us really questioning things, you know, even even at the very beginning of COVID, where they were closing the airports, right, you know, and, and gosh, our prime minister on TV, say Canadians come home, that was exactly what he said. So, of course, our parents are like, get on a plane and come and, and, you know, and we're just going well, do we, though, but we have we live here, you know what I mean, you have an apartment full of stuff. It's not just, it's not like we're on a holiday, you know. So that was a hard decision to sit tight and say, Okay, we're going to stay here. And staying in a place where, you know, there's no, kind of like social safety net for foreigners here. So there's no employment insurance, there's no child, like, kind of welfare thinks that you're on your own. So we had to just try to, you know, tighten our belts manage our savings to make them last as long as they, as they could, you know, borrow money when we had to, to get through it. And of course, the whole time, you're thinking like, is this it? Is this just the end? Because that was one of the things that was so hard about COVID to it was, maybe this is the end forever? Have in person performances, like the repairs were like, is this? Is it just all gone now? And if so, what are we hanging on for like, then we need to be pivoting and learning to be accountants, like, this is what has to happen. And so if they're, there have had so many long periods of just not knowing what the hell we're doing and what the hell's going on. Now, of course, in hindsight, like we see, okay, no, we were, we we made the right call to is to stick it out. And stay here, I think, actually, one of the big factors that, you know, factored into a stain was that I was pregnant. Because it was also I don't have a doctor in Canada, you know, my doctor is here, the quality of care is, is excellent here, and it was still really accessible, you know, whereas in Canada, they kind of like, locked everything down. And my sister was pregnant at the same time. So we really, so I have a nephew who's only three months older than Hendrix. So we really were kind of, you know, compare and contrast, like through the whole thing. And she was having tele health visits, and I'm like, no, no, I still go in for my, you know, twice a month ultrasound. Like, I'm still allowed to do that. So you know, I think that live streaming was really great to show us that we have a another way of, of reaching people. But I feel like it's not over, I feel sort of that, like our deciding is not over, you know, we really feel like we're here. We're here for the immediate future. But also, I personally know that I'm left with a lot of anxiety and kind of, like a form of, you know, PTSD, almost just the stress of the insecurity of the last two years is, is something that I really struggled to shake, to, to feel secure. Again, in as secure as you ever feel when you're a musician. I mean, I've spent the last 16 years of life on contracts and having like, zero, real financial security, you know, as many artists, you know, that's our life. Right. But this has added a whole like other layer to it, which is kind of permanently stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And that's thing. It's so it's so unknown, because it's like, I know what you mean, like, it's winter, next gig winds, you know, in normal times, but then it's like, Will there ever be gigs? Like, it totally changes the whole way? That you think about the whole thing, so yeah, I can I can empathize with you there because that's, yeah, and that's thing. It's COVID Still ticking along like things are still happening. And yeah, we just we have no idea where it's going and what's going to happen and yeah, it's full on in it's been a really, it's been a crazy time to be alive. You know what I mean? Like it's it is one of those hopefully once in a lifetime occurrences, you know, like a war like, something like that, that this is is you know, the thing we'll talk to our grandkids about, basically. Yeah, and, and, um, yeah, I'm still not sure how we're the lasting changes, you know, that this This will make like, one of the things that I was sort of surprised at is how quickly kind of the online side of things really like online performances really dissipated once in person performances were a thing again. Which is great, because I mean, hey, we're like, that's our job is to be in person performers were in the room. But, and in a way, it's fantastic. Because it thinks that it shows me that there's nothing that can replace being in the room with the people making the music, you know, it's just, you can't put that on a record, you can, you know, put that on on a screen, it just you have to be there. So good for us. Because that means people still want to see us in person, but also to is kind of stressful, because it's like, well, then, is there ever really a plan B for for us? Or is it always because certainly when we were live streaming, we made a little bit of money, but it was, you know, dribs and drabs, it was not like enough to sustain us so. So that's kind of where I am now. It's just to feel that over the long term, not sure how much longer we'll be able to kind of get away with doing what we're doing, you know, because if ever to the market changes again, and we're now not so well positioned for what people want, then that's tough. So I mean, this is like a story of all you know, performance artists also sample if you lead with me, me, me love you you know, that I find it Oh, so hard to let go. Change my mind when you say in your sweet baby one of the topics I really like to talk to guests on the show is about mom guilt. And I put I put it in air quotes because I recorded an episode with an artist this morning who had to Google what it meant because she literally did not experience it didn't know what it was. And I thought that was awesome. That's the first person I've met that hasn't known. So I'm really that was awesome. So that just goes to show the broad range of experiences that we have with this thing. What's your thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm the polar opposite of the poster child for Mom You're getting both ends of the spectrum today. Yeah, yeah, no, mom. Definitely. I mean, I have all kinds of, you know, anguish about things. You know, I have like, bandleader guilt and all this kind of things, too. So it's just another one that I add to my my collection. The mom guilt. Yeah. Where does it hurt? Oh, my gosh. It's, you know, I was listening to to yesterday, I was listening to the podcast you done with Ms. Coleman. And she was talking about it really for her seems to revolve around time. And I think that's, that's absolutely yet you know, feeling that that I'm not giving my boys enough time or feeling that I'm not giving them quality time. That one is, you know, certainly is trouble. I see. So I kind of the logistics of it. Right? You know that our gigs do finish even getting home at midnight, but you know, you're not to bed for 130 or whatever. So when someone comes because they've wet the bed and then the other ones crying the knees. So you know, I mean, there's lots of nights where we're still, you know, maybe up three or four times. So then starting the day at seven, it's like okay, well we've had like five broken hours of sleep, you know, and my husband and I share duties and he's up, you know, with as well. But still we both just find really, really tired in the mornings a lot and That's hard. So then I think I see too that with Hendrix, I don't spend the same time there's a lot more TV. A lot more TV. Do it would be like 12 minutes, one little episode, you know that we're trying to get off and we're working on colors and stuff to with Hendrix, I'm like, Dude, how do you not know any of your colors? Like how do you not know these animals? Right, because no one has taught us that that was the kind of thing with do that I would sit and I would do. And now with two of them, I'm just kind of like, oh, the TV's just gonna have to teach you something today, because I don't go to the realities. The reality but I feel guilty about it, you know, I feel guilty that I'm not kind of there for my second one, in the same way that I was for the, you know, for the first child. And, and it's, it's hard. When we get busy with work, you know, we're lucky to have maybe six or seven gigs a week, regularly, you know. So sometimes we'll only have one night off. And that's hard, where I'm giving them their bath and putting them to bed once a week. And just the feeling that like there's another woman who I love and trust, but somebody else does this all the time, who gives you nighttime cuddles. So those periods are hard, but they're also kind of necessary, sort of the reality here, like, in general, there are summer season, which is about five months long. workwise is quite quiet, you know, there's less tourists, a lot of the families that are here, if they can, they, they'll take their holiday, so they might be gone back to Australia or Canada or UK wherever for two, perhaps two months. So then they're not here eating in restaurants and going out. So we do have a lot less gigs in summer than we do in the over the winter period. And that's hard to the the feeling that we have to take all the work that we can get, you know, when it's offered. I don't find that we have a lot of balance, like either summer, and we're kind of, you know, to in our fingernails a bit going, Okay, hope we can we make it by the end of the month, or it's winter. And we're just like, you know, out every night kind of thing, just just working all the time not feeling dizzy the kids? And if so, and then I think it translates into other ways, right? You know, maybe there's too many trips to McDonald's or too many little presents, or little, you know, ice cream or whatever, because it's like, my, I feel like I don't see you enough. So I just want to just want to treat you. And there are other options. You know, like here in Dubai, there's quite a nanny culture, they don't really do babysitters, and of course, because all of us, like kind of the entire population are away from our families, right? You know, like, everyone has come from all over the world to work here. So you don't have sisters and aunts and uncles and brothers who can watch the kids, you know, so you have a nanny, and they're with you, all the time. And for many people, it's not our situation, but many people have many live with them that and we often have people saying that, but if you had your nanny live with you, she would get up in the morning with the kids and you know, hey, we think about it, but also to the Trade Office, then then I do lose that part, I do lose that access to my, my kids. And you know, there's a part of me, which feels like, if certainly if we had kids in Canada, we'd be doing it all on our own, you know, we would be up and we would be tired. And we would be just like everybody else, you know, and so trying to still may have that kind of Canadian life, but at the same time, the reality is like, I get to bed at two o'clock in the morning when I'm tired when I wake up at 630 So there's no escaping. Yeah, but that's the thing that I like. I haven't heard you say once in this, even though there's always stuff I mean, obviously thinking about, you know, the how the market is gonna go but you're not saying that I don't want to do this anymore. Because of, you know, the sacrifices, the compromises that I might be making with my children. You know what I mean? Like it's, this is what is important to you at the end of the day, you know, this is this is you This is in in your heart and soul and yeah, I hope I'm getting Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I quite recently have asked myself, you know, if this is if this is right for if this is right for me, if this is right for us, and it's sort of that feeling of a lack of balance, you know, I would like to feel more balanced and and I mean, also to that logistically, the reality of it is just financially, it makes more sense for the two of us to be going out and gigging. And for us to then hire a nanny than for me to stay home. But that's not the whole story, too. When I see things like, Oh, my two year old doesn't know his car, you know? And I'm like, well, maybe I need to be here, and be teaching him those things. And, and is that what's right for us now? And also to in the sense that, you know, we think someday we'll move back to Canada, probably, you know, in the next five years. And we know, we can't do this, when we're there. So there's also that to have, do we need to be putting in place, whatever kind of work, things need to happen, you know, does it obviously involve some kind of retraining or something? And is that what I should be spending my time doing now? So that we're kind of ready for the next step. But, you know, as he said, it's kind of the, it has always pulled me back in like, I can't imagine not putting on the makeup and doing the hair and going out and, and making music with Felix, you know, it's the the reason that we're that we're together. You know, he'll he'll occasionally have other gigs with other people. And as much as I love it, and I'm happy for him. And he needs more variety than I do. Like, I'm like, No, I'm happy to just work with you to know exactly what I'm doing to have someone who I rely on 100% I don't need any kind of instability. In my life. I'm good. I got it. Whereas he'll go, he's happy to jam and happy to take on new projects and learn new things like No, no, I don't have any of that desire. But when he does things, I'm happy for him. But also there's part of me that, like, it really doesn't like that, you know, that he's gone off and is having a life without? Yeah, I mean, we literally in 16 years, like we pretty much, you know, kind of spent every minute together for that time. So yeah, it's if for better, it's far better for us. You know, it really it really is. No longer gonna backtrack, just exam that you chose wrong. Now you go back and get over it Yeah, was gonna ask you what you've got coming out. But I know, I've I don't know how to ask that. Because you've got gigs all the time, haven't you? Like? Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, because I had a look at your page of all your shows. It's like, oh, my gosh, you like that. And then, so like, it's just, it just flows on and on and on. Like you said, you have this portion of the year where it's full on full on full on, and then it's the little break time. So yeah, you just sort of ride the waves. And, yeah, it's like, you know, we describe it as a marathon out here. Right? You know, because it doesn't ever really stop. And which is great. Is you know, as you said, like it does have high season and low season to it. So, for us coming up we're getting into this season probably won't start really full on until October. Which is okay, because Theo is starting school in September. So he's never been to nursery, he was kind of about to go to nursery and then it was COVID. So then he stayed home for that two years with us. Which is a whole other like, Mom, thing my sister laughs at me, she's really okay with sending her eldest to school and I just choked all the time. I'm like, buying, you know, glue sticks and googly eyes, like crying in the grocery store. filling his school list. I, you know, he needs a uniform and I'm kind of dreading going to the store. I just don't I can't like deal with seeing him in that little uniform for the first time. So yeah. So I think actually, it'll be okay that he, you know, we'll start that and we're not super busy yet. So we'll have time to kind of transition him into that and transition us because he has to get up even earlier for us to drive him to school. You know, Oh, it's so I'm nervous about it. Because I think like, already, I'm tired. And already, it's not amazing for me, you know? How is that going to be when now we have to be up even earlier five days a week. And then when I have more gigs, how's it all gonna work? So I'm, I am really nervous about this fall season, coming in and figuring that we will just have to figure it out, as you know, as it goes along. But for us, musically, we have just started our first gig in like, four years with a full band. So that's been exciting for us to actually have, you know, bass, drums and keys again, because most of the time, and although we say most of the time as a duo, Felix is the band. So he is a guitarist, but he does all the drum programming, we work the drum machine that he plays Live, and then he does bass loops and guitar loops on top of that, and then he's doing back vocals, and he's saying the vocals, I'm just singing. I'm playing a little bit tambourine here and there. And then doing all though, like, admin stuff on whatever social media time. Yes, I do. That's all me. But, but so to have a full band is musically is really exciting again, logistically is difficult. It's kind of like, oh, yeah, and people's scheduling and issues and all this. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so it's great that we're working on that working in a new venue to so getting adjusted to, what did they want? What does the audience want? What do we think is going to work? We've just been asked to perhaps put together a gypsy jazz trio, which would be new for us, we do a little bit of gypsy jazz, but not like full on things. So trying to see if that's something that we can that we can manage. And aside from that, yeah, just mostly have work either as a duo or as a trio. We do have a few different keyboard players that we that we work with. And yeah, most of most of our gigs are restaurant or kind of restaurant lounge, this new full band one is the first one that we seen a long time where people really there's sort of like a dance floor space for them, you know. So that too, has meant Okay, well, we kind of need to rework and bring back in some of that repertoire that we haven't really bothered with for last few years because they weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll just lead up by Christmas. Usually our week of Christmas is absolutely nuts been rammed, which is I just find crazy challenging. It's with two kids. So also trying to find time to steal like, create the magic of Christmas and, and it's Theo's birthday, he's a Christmas baby. So he's also kind of like finding a way to make him also birthday, maybe birthday party and, and playing, you know, Christmas Eve, usually we'll do two gigs. And Christmas day, we'll do two gigs. And every night of the week and everything. So it is, it's a tough, it's a tough time of year for me. I mean, you want to talk mom gills is kind of astronomical and have our nanny, you know, reading the Christmas story, and I really struggled with that this last year, you know, that we, we move Christmas as we need to, you know, like we celebrated on the day that we don't have to get up and go to a gig. So we did it on the 26th this year, but that still meant that on Christmas night, like she's putting out cookies for Santa and getting them in their pajamas. And I was just kind of all over the place that night. Like it was to the point where Felix even said to me, he said, you know, do we cancel that gig like you're this upset, you know, in the weeks leading up to it that you're not that you're not going to be able to be there and you know, it's a tough call right like these well paid holiday gigs you know, they're not at our usual rate. They're better than the usual rate and, and having to and maybe it'll be different every year. You know, maybe I won't make the same choice this year as to am I okay with her just sending photos of look, they're in their Christmas jammies. I'm sort of toggling between sets and then going okay, here we go, you know, celebrating Christmas with other people who are there with their families also too, which is just like that. You know, really hard on my heart and, and I, you know, I think maybe in later years it if we're still kicking around and doing this, it will be the kind of thing where maybe they can come and be with us, you know, on the on those occasions just be at those games. But right now there's just so little that, you know, and their bedtime is still early and all of that. So it's, it's, I know that it's better for them to be at home where they're well taken care of and she's doing as much of the tradition is as I have, like, left instructions were hard to do. But, but it's hard like Felix and I both are moms or elementary school teachers. So they had summers off, they had two weeks off at Christmas. So we both kind of have these very strong like holiday traditions of the families always did this and that and Christmas Eve was this kind of celebrating and then Christmas Day was that kind of celebrating. And for us we're just absent, you know, on those times. So find hope Yeah, find the holidays hard. But you know, in the other sense like we're still financially recovering from COVID so it's work work work, work, work work, work much as we can Yeah, you just sort of do what you can at the time that you make the decisions as you go and like you said next year you might feel different and then a year after you might feel different so it's like Yeah, going with what you need at the time. Yeah. And trying not to feel guilty I really love talking to you today. It's it's such a routine energy and I like have you got videos on YouTube where we can watch you perform, I want to watch you perform like your vibe is so welcoming and energizing is like awesome to have a say on stage. You know what I mean? What if you do want to see the videos with feel of which honestly, I swear there's like at full length shows there but they're on our Facebook page. So you can feel free to like scroll through the years. Seriously, just check the last five minutes because that's the start. You can skip ahead. It's fine. We're used to everyone else like tuning out and then coming back five minutes to the hour. I'm University thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum now tomorrow we live saw so simple if you lead with me love you used to be the one always man trying struggling still good seem so sad with you maybe. Monroe I love to also sample if you lead with me love me for me design but love you You know that I find it oh so hard to let go change when you say in your sweet baby start let's let them roll while we while we live in today in some some so simple if you learn to be with me they're gonna love you ever decide that you're gonna love you

Katherine Collette Australian author + podcaster S2 Ep44 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Katherine Collette, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. Katherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry, in diaries, stories or to pen pals. Throughout high school it fell away until her 20s when she would write a little play or comics for friends, An engineer by trade, when Katherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life she would write a book, so she began. Her first book The Helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life. was published in 2019 and she followed up with The Competition in February of this year - 2022. Her style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of punch. Katherine also co hosts the First Time Podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Mildenhall . Katherine - website / The First Time Podcast / Purchase / Instagram Williamstown Literary Festival / Bendigo Wriers Festival / Queensliff Literary Festival Varuna Writers Retreat / The Divided Heart by Rachel Power / Rachel Power's podcast episode Podcast instagram / website Music used from Alemjo with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast has done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Katherine collet, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two. Catherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry in diaries, short stories, or to pen pals. Throughout high school, it fell away until the early 20s When she would write little play or comics for friends and engineer by trade. When Catherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life, she would write a book. So she began her first book the helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life was published in 2019. And she followed up with the competition in February of this year. Catherine style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of a punch. Catherine also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Miljan. Hall. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Catherine. It's a real pleasure to have you. Ah, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah. Must be nice to be the subject of a podcast rather than interviewing someone. Yeah, it is the I think that events add things to, I think the harder job is being the host, rather than being the guest. You got to be a lot more agile in how you're thinking and think of the next question. But if you're the guest, you just wait for the question and answer. It's great. You can relax a bit, just switch off a bit. And yeah, hopefully not too much of like, if you if you don't. So tell us about what you do. Sure. So I am an author. I have written two books. My first book came out about four years ago. And my second book, which is called the competition came out just over a month ago now. So I do writing. I write fiction, the type of fiction that I write is humorous fiction. And I also co host a podcast called the first time, and I believe you had my co host on the show a couple of episodes ago. She'll say, we know Yeah, it was lovely to make a she's, you guys must have so much fun when you make that podcast. It's I think it's well, I mean, we've been doing it for about four years. It started out the concept of the podcast was my first book was coming out. And she was the only author that I knew. So I kept asking her all these questions about what to expect. And yeah, we ended up making a podcast about it. And the podcast has continued since. But during the last and it's always been fun. But during the past couple of years with COVID. We're both in Melbourne, we've spent long periods of time locked down, as I suspect have, you know many of your listeners. But she really was my main touch point, aside from my family, my husband, my mom, it was Kate that I spoke to every week. And a lot of those chats are recorded. And we listened back. She made a little compilation a few episodes ago. And we listened back to the conversations just snippets that we had when COVID first hear it and then over time during lockdown, it was just a it was a really fascinating thing. She definitely kept me going but you could also hear the fatigue in our voices over time. Yeah, it's interesting to have that like little time capsule almost of that, that moment in time and sort of reliving the emotions and the uncertainty and all that sort of thing as as it went through. And yeah, I think it was fascinating because I think that period particularly at the start, you know of so much uncertainty. Yeah, to reflect back and think. Wow, I'm glad you didn't know what was coming in many ways. Yeah. So strange. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just want to let you know that I messaged you and let you know. But I am reading the competition. I haven't finished it yet. I'm sorry, I didn't get to finish it. But I love it. I mentioned you and your message I love your sense of humor is so relatable to me. I just I read it. And it's like, I could have said it myself. It's just love it. So. Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Thank you. I really appreciate that All right, so let's go back to the beginning. How did you become a writer. I was a kid who always liked writing. I, I wrote, as a, you know, pretty early on, I would write in diaries, I had a lot of pen pals. Often people didn't realize they were pen pals with B. So they, you know, didn't always write back. But I wrote a lot of letters to people. And I also read a lot of poetry in those letters, terrible sort of rhyming stuff. So it was something that was really a part of my life early on. But it fell away, as I think it maybe is a fairly common experience in high school I was more interested in I played a lot of basketball. For one, I was probably also more interested in meeting boys. So I did, I did some writing, but mostly it was assessment based. So there was some creative stuff in there, but but not, you know, not heaps. And then in my 20s, I would do little bits and pieces, sometimes for gifts for people, like I might write a little play if they were going away, or I might write comics for them. So I had this creative element. But I mean, I'm, I'm 41 Now, when I turned 30, it just not I had a crisis, but I had this moment of thinking, my whole life, I thought I would write a book. And I realized that no one's ever just gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, you'd be amazing at writing a book. If you if you buy a if you write a book, we'll publish it, you have to just start writing the book. And so I did, and I didn't shut start with short stories. I just plunged straight in. I had met. I'm an engineer, but I was working for a brief period of time at a council doing community development sort of stuff, which I was really very good at. But there I met this president of this local senior citizens club. And she was a really intense woman a little bit problematic. I remember that she I think the first time I met her she was furious because the Chinese subgroup of senior citizens had been playing mahjong in the bingo room. And she had gotten so angry with them for doing this that she had, they had sandwiches in the communal fridge. So she threw out all their sandwiches. And, and told them that it was her fridge and they weren't allowed to keep food in it. So I met this woman, I had this desire to write. And so I wrote a story that was set around a council worker who encountered this senior citizens club. And I was obsessed. I wrote, I didn't have I, this was pre kids. But I got up every morning, I'd get up at five, I'd write for an hour, then I'd go to the gym, and then I'd go to work. And slowly that would encroach into weekends. Like I do writing on weekends. I wrote a bit on the holidays. My husband was like, it's kind of annoying. She would not do this. But yeah, so that was how I got the first draft of my novel down. And I was madly redrafting, wanting to start to send it out. When my daughter was born, that felt like a really big hurdle. But basically, I sent it out. You know, I had a few hurdles and hits and misses along the way. But that novel ended up getting published. And when it was purchased by the publisher they purchased it was a two book deal. So I I was in at that point. Yeah. Is that scary though? Knowing that you've got to then turn around and do In other words, well, I had a draft of the other one. So that certainly helped. Yeah, but it is it is daunting. Yeah, I've heard people say that it, it probably is a better example of it, that do weekly columns. And so that feeling of like, you just sent one in. And then the next day, it's like, oh, I have to do another one. Like I just finished the first one. So did definitely have that. Yeah, right. So not wanting to spoil the competition for people who haven't read it yet. Was that inspired by real life people as well, as they helped me it was, it was so the competition is set around. Public speaking club, people might have heard of Toastmasters. It's a very similar environment. But basically, I had swapped jobs, essentially, from going from engineering to working at the council. And suddenly, I had to do a lot of public speaking. So I joined the local Toastmasters Club. And I don't know if you've been to Toastmasters. I know people I know people who have. Yeah, so I so it's, it's a funny little world. I think that a public speaking clubs probably always going to be pretty awkward. And you would want a public speaking club to be awkward. Both because people are trying something that is inherently awkward. But also, if it was to cooler space, you wouldn't feel comfortable to get up like it has to be this really accepting friendly, kind of gentle place. But that also adds a layer of unusual newness I suppose like if I guess my first impression of Toastmasters was like, Oh, this would be easy to satirize. Because, well, it's awkward, it's enthusiastic, it's really positive, it sort of came out of a probably predates the self help movement on us, but it's definitely a part of it. But at the first meeting that I went to, there was another woman who had just joined and she was a, she's a transgender woman. And she was in the process of transitioning. And she talked about why got to know her over time. But basically, in that process of transitioning, she picked Toastmasters as the place that she would start that so she sort of said to the group, listen, my name is this here. But outside of this, I've called David. And if you see me in the street, don't mention, you know, my name is Greer here, don't don't mention the two things. And that always struck me that Alongside this, this place, that could feel a little bit ridiculous at times, there was something about it, that was really beautiful. If someone who is doing something that's really brave, and I imagine it's really difficult, but they feel that this is the best place to start that journey. And so I always had this view of Toastmasters. And it was a view that I maintained over time, that it was a place where people found their voice, and that there could be elements of that, that were really funny. But there were elements of that, that were really sweet and positive and important. And, and so I started writing a book about it. And the book, the competition is set around a public speaking competition in a Toastmasters like environment. And there is a character in it. It's a really minor character that is based on that original woman that I met. But that's not the focus of the story. Yeah, yeah. Do the people know that they're in your books? Like, are they aware that they've had them? She's the only one that is based on Well, I did have a senior citizens club president in the previous one but I suspect she's is dead and and she was heavily fictionalized. The this is really the only character that is more closely based on a person but she's a really small character before it before the book came out, I had because I had interviewed Gregor is the woman same before writing the book. And I said to her, Oh, would you like to read the bits that I've put this character in? And I've set up copies of the book in my she said, No, she wasn't fast. But she my launch comes up in a week's time and she's going to come to the launch, which was nice. That's but it wouldn't be. It is lovely. It would be very daunting though. If I hadn't done those things, the idea of writing about something and not being I open about that. And I can see why people, you know, could make that choice just because it feels harder. But I'm glad I did. And I mean, it was a positive portrayal. Yeah, that's the thing. You're not You're not hiding it because it was, you know, you turned it into a negative or anything. It's like, it's quite positive. And you don't mind if that person is very aware that that is them? Or based on Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess the challenge with that, though, in that kind of example, is that it could feel very random to have a book that is set in a public speaking club. And there is just a transgender character walking around, like, it could feel like a really labored form of diversity or something like that. So I just was a bit conscious of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, share a little bit about a bit more about your first time podcast with I mean, I don't want to give away your secrets, because I want people to listen to it. But tell us the sort of the gist of it, I suppose. So as I said, when my first book was coming out, I had all these questions. And so I would routinely be like, okay, you know, like, my launch is coming up. What am I meant to do at the launch? Or they want me to give a speech at the booksellers conference, what should this speech be about? Or, you know, just all of these different things that I wanted her view on, I wanted to know the answers to because I think it's, I think it's a vulnerable thing for anyone releasing any type of art into the world via books, or music, or sort of visual art, those kinds of things. And so you, you sort of, I really wanted that from her. But I also was very much in this space of being a writer in a community of writers, and a lot of them were emerging writers, that would be going through the same things because, you know, they would have books published, if not now, but they just had books published. So both of us were like, Well, we think there's kind of a bit of space in this. And I think authors, particularly emerging writers also like hearing those stories of how people's books came to be sitting on the shelf. And did you get an agent? Did you enter a competition? Like, you know, was it on the slush pile, all this sort of stuff? So we started the podcast, and it always had these two parts. One part was our experiences. So me saying it was, I think, particularly in those early days, because we recorded a lot, before we had an audience, and we're releasing episodes as their audience was growing. We were both very vulnerable and saying, I feel really daunted. Yeah, so we had this one part, which was about us discussing me asking questions, the two of us discussing pretty candidly the experience of being published. And then the other part was interviewing authors, other authors about what it was like their first time. And so that was the initial starting premise. Initially, we had to not beg people to go on the show. But we certainly had to question please come on, you know, podcasts people can be a bit dismissive of, but we were like, ah, Could you could you come on our podcast and in people very kindly said, Yes. And so now I think we're into our fifth season, we are overwhelmed with people pitching like it, that part has really evolved, evolved. And you don't have to ask anymore, you've got people knocking down the doors to you to be a part of it. RedBubble. And the best part of that is, is that you get st people's books. So you just have we get lots and lots of books. So as someone who loves reading, as well as writing that, I just I constantly pinch myself and going to the mailbox and having all these books there. It's great. So that was where we began. We are now five seasons in we still interested in people's first time, and that's sort of what we're known for with our guests. We always ask them about that first time. But I guess as we've evolved as writers, we ask also about the craft of writing, as well as the publication experience. Yeah, it's been really nice. And I think what's nice about it is that you start to build a community around it, so it's got a really beautiful community and it's been such a nice thing to do. Writing can be really solitary, but this feels a bit more like a team sport. Yeah, absolutely. And it would be so rewarding to like knowing from your own point of view, what it's like, for your first time and how daunted you are, you're actually helping other people as well. I think that would be amazing feeling. It is, it's lovely. And some of the letters that we get, and emails are so touching. I keep mentioning COVID. But I think COVID is really dominated life. And we've had so many people that have messaged and said, You really got me through COVID I couldn't write I didn't feel creative. I was I couldn't meet with my writers group. But having you and Kate talking and being able to listen to you guys and hear the same struggles. And here also the your defeat your challenges in being creative at such a strange time. Yeah, so it's like they were they were, they were hearing from familiar figures in their lives. You know, it was they felt reassured, and yeah, it's like you. Even though you weren't there, you were there for people, you know. It's true. And I feel that myself with a podcast that I listened to podcasting in audio is such an intimate medium, because it's intimate. When you create it, it's just you and I sitting here, it's intimate when you listen to it, because it's generally most people listen on headphones, or, you know, maybe in the house, but they're generally listening on their own. It's only when you then realize that, you know, it's 1000 people listening on their own, that you realize what's not, you know, probably only to say everything. Not good on you that that's really awesome. I think yeah. COVID was, and it still is, you know, it's it's a time that's divided people like physically. And so having those, those connections that people can tap into, it's just been everything, it's been so important for people and yeah, good on you. And I think that community has helped us too. I remember early on in COVID, we had a listener that wrote a letter in and was saying they had just been at for Runa, which is a very well known writing retreat in the Blue Mountains. And it was in a house that was formally owned by Eleanor dark, who was a writer. And this listener that wrote in was saying that she had read Eleanor darks, diaries or something from the Second World War. And in them, Eleanor was saying that for the duration of the war, she couldn't write because she felt this creative malaise. Survival was sort of front of mind. And it just sort of felt frilly to be writing amidst all that, and something that really helped me when I was struggling to hear someone say, yeah, that is really difficult in times of hardship to want to write, but also that that malaise goes away, and that as as things in life get better. It comes back. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, it's like a, it's not a thing that's sort of reserved for this era of COVID. Like, this is an experience that people have had for many, many generations. So it's sort of reassuring in that way, you know, that you're not alone. And what you're feeling is normal. And you can feel exactly, yeah, exactly. No, that's, it's interesting. Because I found in people that I've spoken to, through this podcast, it can go either way. It's like, some musicians go bonkers. And just they've got to express how they're feeling through their art, or painters, and, and such, and others that just go nuts. Like survival mode, like you said. It's like daddies that it's like almost the primal brain kicks in. And it's just day to day looking after yourself. Looking after your family. Yeah. And everything. That's really true. Yeah. And I guess, to everyone's experience with the COVID, throughout Australia and around the world as being different to like, even you guys compared to me here in South Australia, I've had nothing compared to what you guys have gone through. So I sort of touched with that. You know, we've been really fortunate here and yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting. I think that's really true. I think it's also if you err on that side of that, I can't write I can't do anything. I've got nothing. It's really hard seeing people that Oh, my God novel fell out of my head overnight. And I've you know, written it in three days. I think we often feel that since well, I think jealousy is always a part of creative life, how much you try and engage with that and be calm. Just not to let it in, but you can feel like you're falling behind Yeah. All right, so let's talk about your family and your children. You mentioned briefly that you had your first child when you were sort of the helpline was getting going places and happening and things. And yeah, tell us a little bit more about your children. Yeah, so I've got two children, the eldest, Matilda is eight now and Oscars, six. So they're both at school. This is Oscar's second year at school. So he's in grade one. So I feel like now is a really exciting time creatively, because I get two days a week that they're both at school, and I'm not doing other types of work. So that's really exciting. But yeah, so when Tilly was born, I took a year off work, you know, stayed at home, I wrote a lot in that time, she was a good sleeper. So I was really lucky in that respect. I feel like I've been able to maintain my creative practice through motherhood, probably the bigger blip in that was having two kids, because most people with multiple kids will know, you have this idea that maybe they'll have a nap at the same time, but think that ever really happened. So I think that felt that sort of first year of Oscars, life felt like far more of a hit in that respect. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I feel lucky, like those. I feel lucky to have both to both be able to maintain a creative space and energy and be able to do that. But also to complement that with family life. I feel that one enhances the other. It can you elaborate on that a bit more? Well, I think that pre kids, that was a fear for me, like I had this sense of urgency when Tilly was going to be born, that life would change. And I had a sense that what if I can't write anymore? What if? Or what if I can't write for a long time, what if it's not until they're both at school that I can sort of pick up a PIN, I really didn't know how that would work. And I think those early days of motherhood are so hands on, there's so much sleep deprivation and all those kinds of things that whilst I enjoyed all that I I had framed it around loss, in some ways that I would lose this ability to be creative. And, and a lot of that was related to time. But increasingly, I think having kids is enhanced my creativity, both from the point of view of productivity and the lesser time that I have. But kids also awaken a different sense of curiosity in you and a sense of play, which I mean, you reading different books and seeing different words in that way. But I don't know, like, just how a child will spend an hour balancing a beanbag on one foot, or you know, those sorts of the game of life, you know, games in nothing. And there's something that's I remember being a kid and thinking, encountering adults that I knew had forgotten what it was like to be a kid and thinking, I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. But I think for me, it wasn't until I had kids that I remembered what it was like to be a kid like I had forgotten. Yeah, because life takes you in that direction, doesn't it? Like life expects you to be a certain way and behave, you know, this level? And it doesn't encourage times of play and and it doesn't. You wouldn't the things that you do with kids. Like I don't know, it's sometimes it's boring, like you're playing in a sandpit and that repetition of activities that really little kids like But the delight they will take in playing with an adult is really a joyful you're listening to the art of being a mom. I started doing improv comedy last year, just they do a series of like terms, basically. Yeah. And improv, particularly in the early stages has lots of games that you'll play it. And they're really fun. So something very small might be one person you're in, say, pairs. One person says, well, well, if it isn't there, and then you have to think of like an adjective, and then an occupation or a type of thing. So well, well, well, if it isn't that angry bus driver. And then the other person has to say something that an angry bus driver will say, like, oh, you know, I haven't got a good ticket to get off the bus, something, something small. But I do that. And I take a lot of those games, but that sort of thing with my kids, where you'll say, well, well, well, if it isn't there, something something. And it's just really fun seeing what they come back with and what. Yeah, I would feel silly, potentially doing that with adults, but kids are always up to that stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I work in childcare. And I, it's the perfect environment for just being yourself, like truly being yourself. Because you can be as silly as you want. You can have in the staff it everyone's the same. So there's all these banter and silliness. Like I could imagine going into my work and doing something like that, because people are just in that headspace that, you know, your inhibitions are gone. No one's judging you like, a kid's not gonna look at you and go, Oh, that's not very funny. Like, you know, it's so good. I do. Like there are certain friends I have that, that you can do that sort of stuff with my publicist for the book, the competition, we've traveled around a bit since the books come out. And she was saying when she was a kid on long car trips, obviously, you had the radio, but the radio would go out. So her family used to play this game where one of them would pretend to be a talkback radio host and the others would call in. And she said, the great joy of it was just in the name this so you sort of drive past a church and say, Oh, we're looking at churches today. Have you ever been in a church? What's the funny thing that's happened in a church? Do you like churches, you know, this sort of thing? And just the ridiculousness? We did it for hours. Like, just as we were sort of being driven from place to Oh, suitcases. Do you have a hard suitcase? You have a lost a suitcase? You know, just Yeah. So I tried doing that with my, my kids, and they have never heard talkback radio. We listen to podcasts and things. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? You sort of that's that generation. Yeah. Oh, I should try that with my kids. They would love that actually. So much fun. Yeah. Like, the more inane that it gets is just and because talkback people are so like, have such an opinion, such a singular point of view. Yeah. I can imagine your lady you said about before that it's like, yes, she'd be on Mars young into being gay. Right? Exactly. Oh, my goodness. One of the things I like to ask my guests is about how having children or being a mother sort of might have changed the way they create. And that's how it sort of has influenced you, I guess is that it brought back that ability to play and look at things differently. Maybe look at things through the eyes of a child and yeah, I think that's the real. Yeah, that's, that for me, that's what kids have brought. I think also that I've had much greater exposure to kids books. Kids books have changed a lot since I was a kid. You still have I mean, I love Roald Dahl. And I still love Roald Dahl. But even when I pick him up, I'm like all It's pretty harsh at times. You know, a lot of it is sort of carried through. But other things like I don't know if we'd get away with that now. Yeah, that's actually that's a really good point. You see some of the stuff. Yeah, I've noticed the same thing and like reading to kids at work over the years. It's like it's gone from like, almost like an adult way of writing to this completely the other way that you think you'd hear that in? Like, you know, the schoolyard like, it's not even formal enough for a book, you know what I mean? Yeah. This Yeah, the, my kids read a lot of Ra sprat, who does nanny Pickens. And anyway, she is very funny. Just listening to kids books is really fun. We listen to a lot of them on audio, on podcasts or on borrowbox, like library apps. tightenings. So I think, not only that sense of play with my own kids, but being exposed to authors who play a lot in their writing. I think there's so much more of that than there ever was, before you look at the tree house books or books that are just a bit absurd or, Yeah, funny books. Yeah. You talked before about not really knowing what to expect, like, you're thinking of things in a point of view of loss, like, will I get this back? You know, maybe how it's going to fit into my life? Did you have other members around you at the time, who were writers that you could sort of glean information from? Or are you just basically making it up as you went, I suppose I had, I had just started a writers group, there were four of us in the writers group. And I know I didn't have that, then that's a lie. So I had gone to RMIT. And I was doing some creative writing courses there. But I didn't have a group at that point. But it must have been fairly early on. When I went back, so Tilly must have been about 12 months old, and then met a couple of people. And we set up a writers group that was separate. So that was a really pivotal moment for me, in having other people around me who were writers that I could talk to, they were obviously less established writers. So they were also had pretty young kids. And we're figuring those things out. So I think it was a more lonely endeavor. By the time we're not a lonely endeavor, but probably everyone has to figure that balance of stuff out for themselves. But when my son was born, one of the girls in the writers group was Kate actually gave me a book by Rachel power coat, ah, what's the name of the divided heart. I remember breastfeeding at night, and just devouring this book, which is a book, it's a collection of interviews with creatives, writers, musicians, all different sorts that talk about particularly those early stages of motherhood and motherhood and how they fit it in. And so you would have people who were sort of literally breastfeeding to the side of the stage before going out and playing a set, and others who really had struggled to be able to do everything to be able to do anything. And, for me, that was the greatest education because it was this breadth of experience of how people had made it work. And so it sort of did reinforce that idea of you just have to figure it out. But it presented a vision of it can coexist. You don't have to give one up. You can have both, and it will be a juggler. And here are examples of what the juggler looks like. But yeah, yeah, that was huge for me. Yeah. And in fact, I've tried to give it to people who've just had babies and who are creative, and it's very hard to get. Yeah. I had Rachel on the, on the show on the podcast in season one. And gosh, she's an amazing woman to speak to. She's just, I don't even know how to describe her. She's just incredible. And the gift that that book keeps giving to people. It just it's endless, like so many people had had mentioned this book. And I actually had it I hadn't read it. I'd heard of it, but I hadn't read it. And I reckon the first three people I've spoken to had mentioned this book, I'm like, I need to read this book, and then I read it and like I need to talk to this lady that wrote it. I need to get inside her head more. And yeah, she was so generous with their time Um, it was wonderful to speak to it. It's such a known book among, like, I want to say it's niche, but it's kind of not niche because it really applies to so many women. It's just that it applies at this particular gets you at this particular stage of life. That's it isn't. It's yeah, it's an incredible book. Yeah. I approached my interview with with Rachel, like, I didn't want to be complete fangirl. You know, you might be like, actually, when you speak to authors, it's like, I need to contain myself. But I'm so excited to speak to it. And I just wanted to to really understand from a layperson, that what she's done is just been incredible. And the gift that she's given to so many people, and yeah, just how grateful we all are, you know, for does she know that I imagined check and save a lot. Does she think? Yes, I hope she does. If you're listening, I hope you get it. Push it really to me. What in, in what I have seen, it is the only book of that kind of milk that I have discovered. And it is a very beloved book. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So yeah, like, I think what, what I've sort of taken from that, what you're just saying is like, you can see what other people do, you can't exactly copy what they're doing. Because everyone's life is different. But it's reassuring to hear everyone's going through it. And we can make it work. And like you said, these are some ways that you can sort of manage that, that juggle. And I think it helps with that. You can feel very judged in that juggle at times, particularly in a creative juggle is very distinct from a work juggle, because at least a work juggle is bringing money in. Whereas the creative juggle, might not bring money in at all, or a very small amount of money relative to return. So that tension, I think, is what profound in that space. It's a whole, like, I can never say it right? It's not a kettle of worms. It's a can of worms, can I get my kettle of fish in my cameras? But that is it like the value that artists have been honest, a forced in inverted commas, because I don't really believe we bring it on ourselves. It's something that society and external judgment has brought upon us that we, if things are only a value, if that's a monetary value, and that's a horrible thing to say, unless you can commercialize it, unless it's part of capitalism, society, it's what is it worth, you know, and that's a really, really sad thing with so I think it's so deeply ingrained that in many people that many people don't even realize like one of the things people always ask you, when your book comes out, or when it's been out for a little while, it's generally not other writers or other authors that would ever ask this, but just kind of people that are outside of that world is Oh, what a sales like, Did you which, and I can understand that compulsion to ask that. But it's, it's such a fraught question for someone producing creative because it's so diminishes the worth of something to this volumetric measure, when equally, they could say, you know, what's been the response? or what have you, you know, like, there's so many other ways that you could measure the success of a thing to talk to sales is, is Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Some of the moms I've had on this show, have felt the judgment from not their own parents, but like parents in law, about there's one example of a lady that the mother in law would look after the brother's children because the mum was going to work like an actual job, but she wouldn't look after her children because what she was doing wasn't deemed as being worthy enough to have childcare. You know, it's like this, this massive judgment that comes at you from all angles. That kind of ties into one of the things I love to talk to moms about is this whole concept of mum guilt. What's your sort of take on that in relation to, to creativity? I think, I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that stuff is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship. And, like a real life relationship between perception and and that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Yeah, I don't suffer majorly from guilt. Because I guess for a lot of years, I tried to make my writing as invisible as possible. So I would get up at five o'clock or 430. Before kids, pre COVID, I would leave the house, we have a 24 hour McDonald's nearby, I would spend that, you know, be back by 7am, which, you know, I'm in a privileged position to be able to do because I have a partner who was in bed at that time. So I did work really hard to kind of make that as invisible as possible. Because I have now got two books out, I've been able to carve out more time. But I remember when Tilly was I think she was about nine months old. And she might have been 10 months. And I got my very first fellowship to go to a writing retreat at Bruna at this retreat that I've mentioned before, and it was a full week all on my own. And I was so unbelievably excited, because it was a really validating thing to have one in the first place, but also because I had a 10 month old baby like to be away from that child was like hard, but I was gonna love every minute of it as well. Yeah. And I think I even weaned Tilly in order to go, which I would not have told people at the time, but I didn't want to be pumping milk and being at this retreat the whole time. Yeah, a week. Oh, my God, having is the worst. Anyway, so my husband and I were in Sydney and I was going to catch a train to Verona. And so I was in this like, great, joyous mix of excitement and all the rest. And he got up at sort of 5am put to leave the car and they drove off. And so I lay luxuriating in bed and was just about to get onto the train, and was just pure, pure excitement. And you know, like, I'll miss you, but I'm so happy. Anyway, he called me at like 730. And something had happened with the car. And they've been driving. And he what had happened, the brakes had failed. So he was trying to slow the car down and pushing on the brake and nothing was happening. So he was stuck on the freeway with no way of like slowing down. And so he managed somehow to get the handbrake to go on. We just got to get like 100 kilometers now. So it's like this real near death experience. And it was so like, it was awful and crashing on multiple levels. But I remember feeling really worried but also, if I hadn't have been if I hadn't have been going off to do my writer's retreat or why myself that would like it was such a guilt laden moment, even though it was complete chance. And me having been there or not, wouldn't have made a difference. Yeah, there's just yeah, like, did you get to go on your retreat still? Or did they did and I still had a great time. But I always whenever I think of that retreat, I think of this need if that was it, the cruise control got stuck on and he couldn't turn the cruise control off my God. So it just kept the car kept barreling along so it's it's really frightening thing. But whenever I think of that retreat, I also think of the two of them having this near death experience. And it is overlaid with joy and guilt. So as much as I sort of am conscious of it and try not to feel it. It's it's yeah, it rears its little head. I love that. And I love that you didn't go back and save them in the lucky which rich rage because like, like you said, like what would have been nothing would have changed. If you were in that car, the same thing would have happened. It's like I would have made it worse because I would have been like ah like I didn't die. So it's probably better for everyone that I was I had topic that I like to raise with my guests is about identity about how the concept of how you saw yourself changed when you became a mum. Did you sort of have any To sort of experience where you went, I mean, you did talk about before, how you were concerned that you may not be able to write again. Yeah, identity is an interesting one. I think that I have never been a person that has, when I became a mother that that became my single identity. And I'd probably say that from even when I worked, I worked as an engineer, I really struggled to say I'm an engineer, were to take that honest identity, like some people do really take their job on as an identity I never really did that. I struggled to take on I'm a writer as an identity, which probably is more impostor syndrome, you know, is, is probably the source of that more than anything. So with motherhood, I was obviously a mother, but I never saw that as a singular entity to how I was. And I think part of that was, I was able to write in those early days of motherhood, you know, a couple of months in that sort of stuff, I did go back to work. So I didn't spend, I spent a year off, but I didn't spend a prolonged period of time. So I think that really helped. I have a tendency to obsession, like I could very easily focus singularly on art, like I have to be very conscious of what is important to me in life. And I want to have strong relationships with my kids and my partner and be in the world. But I have to really be conscious to balance that and to not let obsession with writing and those kinds of things overtake it's a really conscious effort for me. Yeah, yeah. It's you find that but like, how do you I'm an all or nothing person that my psychologist has told me that many times, I, I get fixated on things, and I have to do them. Or conversely, I just couldn't do it about anything. Like it's really odd. Yeah. Like, if I've got something in my head that I want to achieve, I'll do it. But that's very rare. I'm a very unmotivated person generally. That's like, when I watched the Olympics, and you hear people their story, like, they broke their leg, but they came back, and then something else happened. And they came back, I just think, God, I would have just given up after the first thing, you know, I'm not that person at all. So I have so much admiration from people that do that. But yeah, I I'm a bit I'm a bit the same sometimes. And then I sort of think, ah, who's cooking tea tonight, you know, like, just getting this. I'm just doing doing doing and I'm like, Oh, I lift my head up and go, Oh, what's happening in the world? You know, I think it's as well like, the tension we often have in my house is my husband is a much neater person than I am. So, yeah, I can really, I can live in fields, but like, as long as there's no like dirty food and dishes and that sort of stuff. Like I can absolutely, I can tune it out. It doesn't bother me and I sometimes think, like not to overstate it. That's a gift in life, too. Because I was not someone who when the child was napping, I wasn't like, I'll quickly tidy that never occurred to me. I was there was not going to happen. I can completely relate to that. Like right, what can I do now in 45 minutes? Jumping this just exactly which I think is what you have to do, like, in those early stages in those early days of motherhood. If you are the stay at home and the babies you're doing 90% of the caregiving oh my god you can't be cleaning your house in the 45 minute nap that that child has. No, absolutely. Just makes me weary thinking about it actually. I know. But you also have to be tolerant like you have to be able to stand the mess Oh, that's the thing, isn't it? You do but you do you get you get used to a level of discomfort that then sort of disappears it's like I can handle that being there can i Yes, I can but I don't even say anymore it's absolutely spotless. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. So do you feel I know your children are six and eight, they're very capable of seeing what's happening around them. Is it important to you that they see what you're doing and what you're contributing to the world? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. And they are really proud of that to my son in particular, is, I think, my best PR agent in the world, he will always tell when he talks to his teachers and says all mums, you know, last year, he was saying all mums written a book. And this year, he was like, Can I take the book in for my teacher and to this fit, like, he tells everyone, we went into a bookshop recently, and my book was on the shelf. And he was quite a small shop. And he was very loudly, ma'am, there's your book, and I was sort of, like, cost cash Don't, don't don't. And then when we came out, and he's like, You should be so proud. Why why, you know, like, really, really sweet. So I think it's really positive for them. I think I didn't grow up in a household that, you know, when people talked about where they were artistic people in it, people read a lot and, you know, went to theater and shows and likes things, but the idea of doing it yourself was pretty foreign. So I really liked that that's a possibility for them. But they also, and I think this is good to see that you're generally not going to make a living from it, it will bring you great joy, you can have a lot of success with it. But from a fiction writing perspective, it would be 20 authors in Australia, you know, a pretty small number that get to write full time. Yeah. Yeah. So they're learning early on the realities of hanging out? Well, that it's it coexists. And it's an important part of life. But it's you might not want to put all your eggs in that basket, but also, equally, you might want to retreat, arrange your life, so that there's space for that. So you know, you can, you don't have to work full time, you don't have to, you know, be ambitious, I think we look so much to work as to give people fulfilment. And I think that's not a message that my kids get, not to say that you can't enjoy work. And that work, you know, I work in the environmental space and sustainability stuff, I think is, is really important. And so I want them to understand that responsibility. But also that, that creativity is an important thing, too, because we look so much to sport in Australia. And, and, and I know sport has a health dimension, but so did the arts. And you can pick up all those skills around teamwork by being in the theater or dancing or, you know, it's doesn't need to be so singular. Yeah, I had a conversation with the, for the podcast with a lady who is overseas, and we were talking about what happened during COVID. What stopped and what didn't stop. And I was just like, reflecting on the fact that even though they were locked down to the restrictions, hundreds of male footballers were allowed to move around this country like COVID didn't exist. But then on the other hand, every performer, you know, anyone who was doing something in the public eye that wasn't bored, just had the rug pulled out front of them, it was just really, really showing what caught our culture in Australia values. And it was really sad. Absolutely. And meanwhile, you know, 99% of the population are watching Netflix and consuming the culture that that artists produce is when I said to someone, like, everything that we touch, everything that we listen to, and we consume has been made by someone, a creative person has made that and I think we forget that, that. It's like, if we cut the arts off, you wouldn't have the radio, you wouldn't have the TV, you wouldn't have your Netflix, you wouldn't have music, you wouldn't have, you know, houses, you know, everything would start you wouldn't be driving a car because now we'll be creating, you know, beautiful cars, it would just everything would stop. And no one thinks about it in that way, like the government said. It's yeah, it's hugely disappointing. And I think that valuing of not only sport, but male sport, yes. Is just makes it particularly disappointing particularly, you know, given the role models that sports men often playing, there are a lot of issues that I think the creative types are Uh, you know, more across. You don't see them in the paper, you know, upon sort of sexual assault or harassment charges and those sorts of things, or sitting sitting in hotel rooms, snorting cocaine or something. I don't know. Sorry, maybe maybe they're doing it, but we just don't know. better at not getting caught. That's right. No, honestly, it really has been a massive eye opener, and not in a very nice way. Would you do you have anything else that you wanted to share? Like what you've got coming up? I mean, you mentioned that you've got like your official launch? Do you want to share? Sort of? I think I've got a few festivals there'll be at I could share about Yeah, so I will be at Queenscliff and Williamstown writers festivals at those. I'm talking with Tony Jordan, who is an author that I'm a huge fan of. So that feels like a very special moment. And I'm also going to Bendigo, where I will be thinking a session with Kate talking about the first time podcast, I think we're doing a live recording. Oh, cool, beat a lot of fun. And so those are coming up in May and June and the details will be on my website. Awesome. That is so cool. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just been so nice. So nice. So nice to think about creativity and kids. Like this feels like the podcast version of Rachel's book. That's incredibly flattering. Thank you. I think that's what we need. Like it has a bigger impact on women than it does on men to adventive children. Absolutely. Yeah. He's good. Keep up the good work. Likewise, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Lena George US author S3 Ep79 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Lena George, an author from Baltimore USA and mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life, growing up in Pennsylvania she played guitar, violin and flute, as a youngster she would dictate books and stories for her mom to write and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a Zine and published that for a while, and when In college studying visual arts Lena wrote a live journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008. Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, She began a blog in 2014 and from this released her fiction work in 2019 under her own name Jaclyn Paul around this topic called Order from Chaos - The Everyday Grind of Staying Organised with Adult ADHD . Her writing about ADHD has appeared in ADDResources , ADHD Roller Coaster with Gina Pera and Houston Family Magazine . Lena's debut non fiction novel She's Not Home will be released in April this year, It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter. shared grief and coming of age. She started writing the book in 2009, before she had a child, and put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective, after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now here Lena's website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Fair Play - Eve Rodsky This episode contains discussions around ADHD and road accident fatalities. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I, Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy love to enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creatives about the joys and issues they've encountered. Trying to be a mum and continue to create. You hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how they works, being influenced by mother, mom guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the basic place, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Allison dotnet slash podcast, the blog, the traditional islands of the land and water, which his podcast is recorded on has been abandoned in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is George Lincoln is an author from Baltimore. And a mom of one son. Lena has been creative her whole life. Growing up in Pennsylvania. She played guitar, violin and flute. As a youngster she would dictate books and stories for him to write, and Lena would illustrate them. When she was 14 she started a zine and published that for a while. When in college while studying visual arts. Lena wrote a Live Journal blog. She moved to Baltimore in 2008 Lena was diagnosed with ADHD as a teenager, she began a blog in 2014 and from base released her fiction in 2019. Under her own name, Jacqueline Lena George is in pain for nonfiction book is called the everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD, providing a sense of add resources, ADHD roller coaster, genius hero and Houston family medicine. Lane his debut nonfiction, she's not fine will be released in April this year. It explores the relationship between a mother and her daughter shared grief and coming of age. Lena started writing the book in 2009, before she had her son, and she put it away for a long time. When Lena came back to it, she wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective after becoming a mother herself. The book is available for pre order now. Links are in the show. This episode contains discussion around ADHD, and Brode accident fatalities. I hope you enjoy today's chat. Thanks again for tuning in. Hi, Lena, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's such a pleasure to welcome you. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I know. This is I'm excited. Well, it's my pleasure. So we're about to you based in America. So I'm in Baltimore. That's I mean, I've learned after moving here, that's the Mid Atlantic region. So just I'm originally from Pennsylvania, and associated more with the Northeast that way, but yeah, kind of in the middle of the right smack in the middle of the East Coast. Yeah, right. What state is that in? Maryland? Ah, you're the third person I've had on from Maryland. There's something Maryland. Sorry, I gotta say it right. Something going on with it part of the world at the wire. It's pretty cool. That's very funny, because it's not a big state. Yeah, there you go. Because yeah, I'm getting better with my geography. I know which side of the like the east or west of the big cities are on, but I'm getting better with my little other places. Oh, even people who live here are not so good at outside of their region. i It's very funny because when I meet people who are from the Western United States, I, I just I obviously know where the states are, but the size of them is they scale up as you as you go out there. And just sort of what's close to what and and I've been laughed at many times Such a big country. I mean, it's Yeah. It couldn't be blind for not knowing every inch of it. Yeah, it's impractical on many levels. Yeah. So what what brought you to that part of the world? You said you're from Pennsylvania originally? I am. So we came down here. So Pennsylvania and Maryland Shara border. And I live about two and a half, three hours away from most of my extended family. So we're not super far away. My husband got a job down here in 2007. And I was a little bit adrift. So I just came along. And now here we are quite some time later. Yeah. Oh, very good. So you're a writer. And I'm gonna ask you this name, you have a pen name of Lena George, how can we do that? So I just started that pen name for my fiction work. Because I am already a published nonfiction author. And I am somewhat widely known for my niche nonfiction work. And even though I always tell people do, do not order your books on Amazon, go to your local bookstore. The reality of it is, as a writer, you do have to think about the Amazon algorithm. And I created a pen name for my fiction. So I could keep things kind of cleanly delineated that I have to, you know, I'll have two catalogs of work nonfiction under my given name and fiction under my pen name, and there will be audience crossover. But I didn't want to him myself into kind of needing to have the same audience for both. And that's why I went back and forth on it a lot whether I should do the pen name. And eventually I just decided to do that and keep things simple. But yeah, so it's a little weird. I, it's my first book under that name is coming out in the spring. And I'm just starting to try to figure out oh, okay, so when I'm interacting with people in person, like how do I introduce myself, it's very especially locally here in Baltimore, because it is a small town. And I know a lot of people at this point, and they recognize me by my given name, so it gets a little bit more muddled around here then out in the wide world where no one Yeah. Oh, do you? Oh, yeah. It's it's makes sense, doesn't it to do it like that? And just iron out the little details of how you deal with certain people face to face. Yeah. Oh, yeah. How long have you been writing your whole life? Are you doing that as a kid, you're really creative. I think writing is the thing I've done the longest I have had many creative pursuits in my life. But even before I was a great like physically at writing, I, before I went to elementary school, even I remember sitting and I would dictate book your quote unquote, books, and stories to my mom, and she would write them into these construction paper books, and then I would illustrate them. Yeah, so I went to kindergarten having, you know, written some weird one page story about a toy ghost I had, and it escalated from from there. And I went through phases, I really thought my pursuit in life would be music, and then it wasn't and then I went to school for visual art. And that wasn't it either. And then I came back to writing so so you got back into writing. Can you tell us a little bit about the books that you've written? So I have one published book that has been out for a few years and it's called order from chaos. The everyday grind of staying organized with adult ADHD. So I started writing a blog years ago 20 In 2014 And I sort of spun what I had the work I had done there into the book. And now most I feel like a lot of people encounter me now via the book, the book is more popular than the blog ever was. And so Oh, I didn't know you also had a blog. Yeah, that's kind of where it started. But I yeah, that's been ironically, my my most full focus nonfiction work I've done when I was in ninth grade. So yeah, when I was 14, I started a zine. Which is maybe dating, dating myself a little bit. But I published that for a while and then went to college. And then we had Live Journal and I, you know, wrote a Live Journal blog. So I did a lot of like, personal experience writing. For myself, and then pretending it was for other people, too. But then I tried a few like more adult blogs, when I was out of college, and this is the one that stuck and really like it. My work started resonating with people. And that made it easier to stick to because I felt some, you know, accountability there to a community that I had built. And so that's, that's where my nonfiction writing mostly has been. For the past, I guess it's almost nine years now. Yeah. Right. So, obviously, based on your own experiences of having ADHD, so when were you diagnosed with ADHD? Um, well, so I, I guess I figured it out on my own when I was in high school. I, when I was 17, I asked a therapist to, like, do she did some sort of evaluation on the computer. And then she was like, Alright, so what do you want to do with this. And here, if you are a minor, to get a diagnosis and evaluation, it, you have to involve your teachers and your parents. And they have to fill out these questionnaires. And I had kind of hidden all of that away. And so at some point, if you are good enough at hiding your struggles, or if you are in an environment where there's a certain ethos around, like, what kind of struggles are okay? Or, or expected, or like everyone deals with that, or you just have to do this try harder. I just didn't want to involve anybody, because I was terrified of them. Just saying, There's nothing actually wrong with you. You just can't deal with your life like, but that's you. That's not something that we need to fill out a questionnaire about. And it wasn't until I was in my mid 20s, that I kind of hit a rock bottom point and pursued it again. So it was I was like, what the classic late diagnosis? You know. Looking back at my elementary school paperwork, like Yeah, okay, like one of the professionals in the room should have probably noticed this, but I was the gifted student. And I think it just slips by, if you're the gifted student, you then if you have behavioral or social problems, or if schoolwork is extra super hard, it can really mask the true struggle. And it's like, well, you need to learn how to control your behavior or, you know, apply yourself and your schoolwork. And, yeah, yeah, so it's it. That was kind of a long journey. That I guess it started in high school that I like, asked for something. But then it wasn't until I was like, well into homeownership and adulthood that came to a head. Yeah, right. It's almost like like I've had, I work in the early childhood education sector. So I've come across a lot of children with ADHD, and my own son has had some issues as well. So I can relate to what you're saying, from an educators point of view. So almost like they said, that, that you weren't a problem for them. Right. Your behavior was, you know, everything was they didn't have to do anything. You know, if it had been a child that was having issues with behavior or couldn't get their work done, then they would have had to do something, you know what I mean? Like it's, that's a horrible thing to say. They didn't think like that. But yeah, yeah, but it's like if you don't have to try I in school, then it masks a lot because I wasn't failing school because I could coast. And I certainly didn't challenge myself as much as I could have. But because I was very selective about where I was comfortable being challenged, my academics were always okay. And then the behavior stuff was just like, well, we need to address this as a behavior issue. But even I mean, that's 30 years ago, and even now I know, educators who say, Oh, yeah, we can't really do anything, intervention wise, if the academics aren't being affected, which I think is terrible, because I'm like, Oh, I wish that things would have gotten better. Because, I mean, because my son is the same way that his not he's not failing, grades wise, but in terms of his own, like, like mental health and happiness. If I hadn't known what to look for, then his teachers might have been in a position where, like, the academics aren't being affected. So we really can't push this with the parents. And, you know, it's, yeah, it makes me sad, because I'm like, a bunch of kids are still being like, left behind and thinking that they are just a problem. Yeah, and yeah, that's really horrible to hear, isn't it? Hmm. Because there's so many other things in life that are important, other than just having good schoolwork results, you know, like you said, the social Yeah. Yeah. There's more beyond school and work that makes us happy. And, yeah, with ADHD, it's that a lot of the focus is on. Well, how are you doing at work? How you doing at school by the numbers? And, you know, if that doesn't look terrible, then what are you complaining about? And well, okay, but yeah, it does make me sad that like things haven't come a little further than that, since I was, you know, my son's age for sure. So, tell me about this new book you've got coming out in your fiction section. Yeah. Lena, George, how'd you come up with that name, by the way? If you don't, sorry. Sorry, I'm, I have known people who have renamed themselves and adulthood. And I just didn't appreciate how hard it is to come up with a new name for oneself. So my maternal, paternal great grandfather, I guess. He wrote a novel that was never published. He died in 1941. So I absolutely never crossed paths with him. And also, it was not spoken about that he wrote fiction. I think my great grandmother, were very German in that way that she just did not speak about him. Really, I think it is, it was a painful topic. And she had really had to, like, get up by her bootstraps and be a single parent at a time when that was not the norm. And yeah, she did not like sit around and share reminiscing about him. But after my grandmother died in 2020, I was given this box that had this the hovel manuscript in it, and I was like, Oh, that's funny. He played the violin. And now I learned that he's a novelist. This is the person I apparently have the most in common with and I never knew but his first name was George so that's where the the last name is a is a nod to him and then I eventually I was trying to do to family names and it just wasn't working. So I just found I just like okay, well what's like a what's a German first name with a nice ring to it? And I came up with Lena and so that's yeah, Lina George, but it's a kind of an A in honor of For the family that I writers on both sides who like did not share their work. That's interesting, isn't it? Do you think it's like, sort of, of the time that they were just too busy working and having, you know, their life that you couldn't indulge in these other sort of things? I don't know. I don't maybe because my great grandfather, George, he worked in finance. And I, I get the idea that that kept him rather busy. So he didn't probably feel like he had a lot of time to sit around and dilly dally with this. But he also he did share his work with other people for feedback. There's like someone he wrote to who gave him you know, some very critical feedback in a letter, which is really funny to read. But then my grandmother on my mom's side, apparently wrote stories as well. And she would submit them. But then when she got rejection letters, she would just get rid of the stories. And she was like, oh, no, but do you know how many rejections some very, very famous authors got before? They made it? Don't throw it away? Yeah. But yeah, apparently she didn't keep her stories. And it was at the time typewriter. So you threw it out? It was just gone. Yeah. Which, you know, my mom is like, I can't believe she did that. Because she would love to be able to read them. But um, yeah. Hey, guy. I'm glad I asked you that question. The weird, the weird family history. Our. Yeah, but my grandmother. I mean, she wrote stories, but she also was, you know, she had four children. So that's another another person who probably did not have oodles of free time to write stories. And maybe that's what I don't know. I guess we'll never know why she got rid of them. But as you know, is it was it a perfectionistic thing? Or just a? Well, you know, I guess it's a waste of time, then. Yeah, there you go. So your walk is called? She's not home? Can you? I mean, obviously, don't give us any spoilers, because we want everyone to read it. How does what's the GST? So the gist is the so it's told from two perspectives. A mother and a daughter, and the daughter is 17. And it's, the book starts just before her senior homecoming dance in the fall at her high school. And 10 years prior to this, her older sister, her only sibling had died in a car accident on the night of Homecoming. So in the intervening years, her mother sort of transformed from, you know, the kind of the fun parent into this, she just did not address her grief around this and instead just became very controlling of the surviving child because she was terrified of experiencing a loss like this again. And so the fun carefree lifestyle didn't do it. Okay, you know, I need to become a different parent to this child, so that I like, there will never be an opportunity for her to be in a situation where something like this would occur. And part of that is her envisioning of how this accident happened. And the daughter is obviously feeling a bit suffocated by this at this point, and everything kind of comes to a head for them around this homecoming night. And the daughter discovers how things actually transpired for her sister. And she ends up running away from home. And the to the story is her running away and having to deal with this. Even though it's you can understand in the moment, the impulse to run away, it's still like the people left behind. She being a kid and rather impulsive, did not fully comprehend how many people would be deeply affected by this and that it actually is kind of a terrible thing to do, even if it's understandable. So it's, we see her kind of coping with the fallout from her choices. and having to decide like, well, then I thought that a fresh start would be so clean. It's not, but how do I rebuild my life and become a whole person again? And does that in any way include like reestablishing contact with my family? Like, can I do that? Do I have the courage to do that. And then meanwhile, the mom is is left to to reckon with, like, not only losing another child, but losing another child in a way that feels like very much on her. Yeah. Like, after all these years of trying so hard to insulate herself from this trauma recurring is like that. Those efforts have then, like, in a way brought it about the thing that she most feared. And you know, how, how can she actually like heal from that and figure out like, who she is in the world? It's almost like, the mother sort of had a self fulfilling prophecy that she sort of created this. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So is that just complete fiction? Or have you sort of, is your own your own influences? In there since you became a mother? It definitely I don't I don't know if I could have written. I don't know if i. So this story has been around quite a while I wrote the first draft of it in 2009. Before I had a child. Yeah. And I, you know, I shelved it for a long time. And when I came back to it, I actually wrote in significantly more of the mother's perspective. And the issue had always been that she was a little bit two dimensional. And we didn't get to, like meet her early enough in the story, like from her in, in her own words. And once I wrote that, I mean, the book is a lot better now than I think I could have written it when I was younger. But the inspiration for it actually came from a what if line of thought involving my sister, because I have a sister who's significantly younger, and we grew up in a rural area with like, lots of hills and winding roads. And at least when I was a teenager, everybody drove all the time. And looking back on it as an adult, I'm like that was outlandish ly dangerous. How did our parents bear to let us drive around in cars that did not have safety features, like we have now. It just, it's mind boggling. But I you know, I know, several, former, you know, high school classmates who did not see their 21st birthday, who did not see their 18th birthday, you know, because of car accidents. So it's a very present thing. And I just went back to visit my dad recently. And it was the first time that I really thought about, like, what does it mean to grow up, surrounded by like, roadside memorials to people who have died very young. But my inspiration for writing this book in the first place was actually thinking about my sister and how, you know, I had a friend who died when we were 17 in a car accident, and it seemed very chancy to me that I was a good driver for a teenager. I was careful for a teenager. But even so, I mean, it's still a lot of it as fate. And you know, what would have happened if something had happened to me and like, how would my sisters growing up experience have been changed by that? And how would like she as a person be different if my absence had loomed so large? In our family? And yeah, but the family does not resemble my family at all. Yeah, I can relate to what you're saying about these roadside memorials. I live in this I was born in this area, I've always lived here and it's it's a rural slash sort of mean whether they say the way the biggest city and city are putting in quotes because we're not a city. We're a big town, outside of Adelaide, in my State of South Australia, and a lot of kids like there's not a lot to do so the kids go driving, right? And yeah, there's been a lot of accidents over the years use particularly boys, they seem to the boys getting the cars together and to know if they get each other on to take risks or whatever, but Oh, yeah, well, I think if you get the more young boys you get in a group. It's the collective decision making ability goes down. It's Yes, the boys are are. I've warned my he's nine. And I've worn my son about this already. I said, Look, if you're in a group, and it's all young boys, just bad decisions can happen. Be careful. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a lot of driving. And it's not all sober driving. Yeah, they, I mean, they say that kids aren't getting into as much old fashioned trouble anymore. Because they went to computers to when they fly. Yeah. Which is its own kind of risk factor. You know? Yeah. If I remember growing up, dad would always he was my dad's from this area, too. He's from an even smaller town. And he would like say, don't ever get in the car with anyone don't get in the car with boys like because I think he knew, because they've done it himself. But yeah, there's a real Yeah, sure of it. But you're right. I think yeah, it's definitely it's shifting because yeah, of this online world. They're, they're sitting at home playing fortnight or something instead of being together, but I don't know. Different. Yeah. But ya know, I can definitely relate to that. Yeah. So you're talking about your son, if you've just got the one child? Yeah, it was just just him. Yep. So he's nine. Now. The? Yeah. So you started the first draft before he was born. And then you kept writing? In my face, you know, there's additions. So how we, when it came time to write, were you just like up all night? Or like, early in the morning? Like, how did you physically fit in your time to write. So I'm not so good at that there are people who will get up at five o'clock in the morning, there's on Twitter, I think for a while there was a 5am writers club hashtag that a lot of and a lot of them are parents who get up in for the hour before their kids woke up, they would write. And there I have a author friend who is a real night owl, and always up until you know, midnight or whatever, writing. And I just am not good at that at all. I'm like an after lunch writer. So that definitely became very challenging when I especially when he was much smaller. And now. I mean, he's, sometimes he wants to hang out with me, but like, often not really. He has his own stuff he wants to do. But, you know, yeah, like naptime. I would get a little bit in. And then at the time, my husband had a job, where he was gone for like the whole day, he would leave after breakfast and come home after I went to bed. But then he would like build up extra Lake comp hours at work and have to take some time off eventually. So my dad's family has this little beach bungalow, and I would go and just hang out there for a few days and just, you know, write a lot and make a lot of progress. And then that makes it easier to do the like naptime segments. But yeah, I'm still that way. I'm still an after lunch writer. That's like when my brain does it best. But it did. Like when he was smaller, it made it a little bit challenging. And I don't know if there had been more than one of him. I might have had to I might have had to learn how to write earlier late. If I want to get it done. Yeah. So were you after he was born? Like in those early stages, we were you able to write them? Like did you find that that was important for you to still have something for yourself? Or was it just like, not even on your radar? I was I think even from the beginning I was thinking, okay, when am I going to phase it back in before he was born? So I quit my job like a couple months before he was born to finish the book that I was working on and you know, get do things for myself because I knew that that was going to be more difficult, but I also remember saying to someone, yeah, I'm thinking I'll take Get a couple of weeks totally off. And then, you know, I'll like get get back into it. And now I tell people, if they're expecting their first I'm like, Alright, so this is what I thought was gonna happen. And it is so absurd, I feel embarrassed even saying it now, don't expect that of yourself at all, like the first three months are like, just don't even, it's, it'll just be a black hole in your memory. And then the first year actually is like really hard. And then it starts to get a little easier. But it's so the first year was that was a tricky negotiation. Because and I was I was kind of, like full time, parent, but I was still trying to, like wedge the writing work in. And it sometimes was not successful. And it's just, as soon as I guess, when my son was two, he started going to preschool two days a week. And then three, he went three days a week, and now he's in school five days a week. And I can have a much more like, adult schedule. But ya know, but it was hard. Because I was home, I wasn't making money off of my writing, but I was still doing it. And so the the really like full time stay at home parents in my circle, would always have stuff going on, like, Oh, we're going to the storytime today. You know, there'd be something on the agenda every single day. And I just really could not manage that. Because I wouldn't have had any time to like, do work on my stuff. Yep. And so I kind of felt bad a little bit and, you know, caught between two worlds because I wasn't like, I didn't fit in with the working parents and I did not fit in necessarily the like, full time. stay at home parents. Yeah, and I still don't but that's all right. All right, differently prepared. Yeah, exactly. But the at the time when he was in the first and second years of his life, it was kind of a weird landscape. Because I yeah, I felt kind of alone in that. No Man's Land. of you know, I wasn't Yeah, I wasn't beholden to clients or an employer. But I was still trying to, like, keep momentum on my own projects, because I felt like I needed to do them. And so I just like, No, I can't, I can't go to a different storytime every day. I can't just drop everything and go to the aquarium. And know if my kid would have wanted that but. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. You mentioned there about the writing. And at that point, not making money from it? Was that something that sort of was a bit of an internal conflict for you at that stage? Yeah, I, I, I definitely grew up with and still kind of have to do battle with in my head the idea that if, if you're going to demand time and space for something that you're doing like that, the money kind of legitimizes it. And, you know, my book has been pretty successful. And I've tried to be careful with the way I think about that, because it's like, well, no, but it's not. It's not worthwhile because it it made me a certain level of income. Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, it's worthwhile because it it had an impact on people's lives. And it's important and I thought it was necessary for me personally to do. But it's yeah, it has been challenging. And I think it's over the years to I think my husband and I have under like had much more of an understanding than we had at the beginning about why it is important for me to do my work. And, and I've also tried not to put pressure on myself. have to, like make money with it because that's when I start get tempted to, oh, maybe I should like get some extra like freelance work or this that and like pad my income a little bit. But that's taking time away from the sort of career projects that I shouldn't be working on. And there's no reason that I need to be making, like, X number of dollars every month, it just is not even before. Before kids, my husband was complaining about my job. And he said, you know, you don't have to work like, we could survive if you didn't work. So if you want to just like if the job is bothering you that much, like just just quit and like work on your writing, and do that, and see where that takes you. And I was like, No, I need to have a job. What are you talking about? Looking back, I'm like, why? Like I was being underpaid at that job. And I should have just quit and like, pursued my writing earlier. I didn't feel like I had to, I didn't feel like I had the freedom to do that until I became a parent. And that was kind of my reason, like, oh, well, I don't have to have a job. Because, you know, economically, it makes sense for me not to have a job. While you know, the baby is small, and then I can like also work on my writing that I wanted to do. And oh, but if I would have done it sooner, like that kind of thing. But ya know, it is it's tricky. And it's, yeah, we don't live a lavish lifestyle. So I have as I have a lot of leeway with my work, and I don't have a huge amount of pressure to hit, like an income target. And so, you know, whatever I can pay myself is good. But I think the pressure is like all from me. It's not from Yeah, so I feel like that was my music because I don't earn very much at all for my music, and it cost me a lot to make something that I really, really love doing. I wouldn't be able to not do it. So it's like I don't know, my husband's a financial advisor. So it makes life a bit tricky. Sometimes he reminds me What's ironically, I'm, I've been our homes like financial manager for as long as we've been a household because my husband has no, he has no interest in any of that. And so he just, you know, it's, it's funny, and but like, wow, you know, I'm earning my keep by just me like making sure the money goes where it's supposed to win. But it's, yeah, it is. It's not always practical. But I was just reading this book called fair play by Yves Brodsky. And I got to this chapter that was, I think the title, the chapter was reclaim your right to be interesting. And it was all about how, you know, when women become mothers, they often just allow that to like subsume their whole identity. And whoever is expecting us to do that, no one is happy with the results when we are not doing the things anymore that like make us interesting to ourselves, let alone anyone else and that she had asked all these men, you know, can you say, Can you name something? A way that you are proud of your wife. And a lot of them would say, wish she's a wonderful mother or he I don't know what we would do without her. She keeps everything together? And she said no, no, no. But something about her that you are proud of external to what she's doing for you. And then so many of them had nothing. They couldn't name anything that they were proud of their partner for. That didn't revolve around domestic responsibilities. And I say oh, that's That's so sad. And I realized you it hasn't always we haven't always been in complete agreement about how each of our time should be divvied up here, but I know you know, my husband says all the all the time is, uh, you know, Oh, I'm so proud of you. Like you're doing these like really impressive things. And, you know, I feel like what am it I'm just going and like by I'm writing, as I know, that's cool too. But you know that, that it's, I didn't mean to do do it for that reason. But I, as I read that chapter, I was like, oh, that's what we did, though, is that we made room for me to keep doing my creative work. But that's the thing that sort of makes me who I am and makes my my life interesting. And, you know, if I'm not, if I'm not doing it, I'm not really showing up as an ideal person to live with. I can relate to that. Yeah, that's what I'm, I don't think of it as like taking resources away from your family, because you need to invest some resources in your own, you know, intellectual sustenance, or else, it's just, you're not going to be showing up as the person that you want to be eventually. I couldn't agree with that more. That's, that's, that has put it so well, I'm taking that quote. And you're gonna hear that quote, In your introduction? Because that is spot on. Yeah, absolutely. Do you feel that way with your son? I mean, he's nine. So he, you know, he'd be aware of what mom does. Do you feel like that's important that he sees you as more than just want to say just mum, because we never just mom, but you know what I mean? Yeah, no, that's very important to me. And even before he was born, I, I wrote down somewhere, I would say, I want him. I want him to see me, as you know, a parent who does who like achieves things. And who wants things for themselves and who does something. And I, yeah, and I, even when he was very small, and I was doing less of my own work, I started to realize how important to me it was for, for him to see that. And not just see me like keeping the house and my husband going out and doing things and having an interesting job that he went to. And then I don't know, I would, I was a child of two working parents. And I just remember seeing my mom worked so hard, and she still does, like where she's like, one of the hardest working people I know. And she, you know, she would dabble in things, you know, crafts and stuff that she did just for herself. But I remember as a kid, you know, wishing that she had like, there was more space for her to do things like that, or what? Even when I was a kid, obviously no kid ever asked to say, Mom, what did you actually want to do? Before you had a child, or, you know if you could have had any career because she I mean, she worked at this store. And you know, did I think that her dream in life was to like work at the store. Yeah, that's what she ended up doing. And like, we all have something we ended up doing. Like I didn't become like a famous musician as I planned, either. But yeah, it's interesting, even as a kid, and especially after my sister was born, and she was working like an overnight shift, and she would come home and like, take a little like, hour nap and then take my sister to preschool and like, go back to work. And even as a selfish teenager, I was like, how is she doing this? Like, how does she how is this like, survivable for her? And I mean, I think Mountain Dew was the answer. When I asked her she's like I drink a lot of Mountain Dew. but I just I wanted, because I had the privilege to do so. And I was aware even as a young person that my own mother did not have as much privilege as I have to pursue something that like, I alone could not live off of my, like, my contributions to our household are not like, paying the mortgage and buying the groceries. But I, yeah, I like I wanted my son to see that. I have, you know, an identity, and aspirations and things that I am doing. Because I think it's a lot also to put on a child. If they are, like, everything you have going on. It's just, it just feels like maybe that's a maybe that's a like a heavy thing. Like, if, if I am the thing that my parents is like living through, you know, what does that what expectations does that put on me and like, how I enjoy and experience my life? And yeah, you know, as opposed to if we are to humans who are very much enmeshed in each and each other's existence. But also, like, it's, yeah, when I, when I was younger, I had some relationships where I just did not realize that you should always have something else going for your own, like mental stability, like you shouldn't put all of your eggs in one relational basket, you know, because stuff falls apart. And you know, it's, if your kid is having a hard time. And that's hard time for you, like, having something to turn to. Hmm. That's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. So that if, if I'm having a big parenting struggle, you know, hopefully, I'm not also having a big riding struggle. But even if I am, it's the way out of those struggles is very different. And the amount of control I have over the resolution of those struggles is very different. So it's definitely a little bit of a balancing thing. Yeah, I think even Yeah, even before kids are involved, or even if they're not involved, I think it's so important for, for couples to have something that that isn't each other. Something they can go and do by themselves. Because we all need space, you know, we all have to Oh, yeah, have to have time align and do things we enjoy and reset, spend time with other people, and then we can come back fresh and, you know, give each other time to miss each other. You know, we're not in each other's pockets all day long. Oh, we are, especially now that I mean, we've been both working from home since 2020. So if you don't have something else going on, I feel like that's a that's a problem. But yeah, my mom always told me that when I was I was as a child very a I get very attached to like one best friend. And then, you know, I when I was in high school, I had, you know, boyfriend and so then like, I focused all my energy on that. And my mom always told me, she's like, Yeah, this is you. You never know what's going to happen. And you should never like, just have one person. Because what if you get into a fight, then you're just alone, you know? And, but it's, it's very true that it's, yeah, like, even without kids. It's too it's too much on one person to make you know, this relationship, like the thing I have going on. Yeah, it's, yeah, the ability to like leave and come back. And, you know, my, I guess my parents set an example of that, for me, because they like their extracurricular activities outside the house. We're, I'm trying to think if any of them were like things they did together. I'm not sure they were. Yeah. That, you know, my mom had stuff that she did. She like, did bowling and you know, my dad would go on golf trips with his friends. But yeah, it's, you know, they didn't. They didn't feel like oh, boy, I have to include you. Yes. So, yeah, that's awesome. That's it. It's very important. We call it mum guilt, mom guilt, mommy guilt, whatever you want to call it. How do you feel about that? Do you? Do you resonate with that at all? Or something you don't even? Not even on your radar? Oh, it's definitely on the radar. Yeah, so when my son was very small, he did not really get upset when I would leave to go, you know, if I went to the beach for three, four days to write, he was fine. And I, I'm trying to think when it was it, it's like the, just the past maybe two years, I feel like he's become much more attached to me. And started to develop a very different relationship with his dad than he has with me, which makes sense because like, we're very different people that he gets very different things from. But he it also means that he like actively, like, vocally misses me when I go away. And he'll send me messages from his iPad. It's like, I miss you so much with like, the crying face emoji and like, and he'll, you know, he'll be really sad. And I've, like, I feel, you know, what, it's hard. Because then even before when he wouldn't get that sad, even though you know, right before, it was like, the day that I was leaving, I would always feel guilty. Like, is this? Like, should I really be doing this? You know, is it really worth all this to like, leave my kid behind. And now, you know, now that he's older as I go, I'll miss you so much. And it's very sweet. But it's also it plays into that guilt of, like, is this like, really? Okay, for and in logically, I'm like, of course it is. Because he needs to learn how to, this is like a human experiences, like people go away, and we miss them, and they come back, and we're happy to see them. And that's a very normal and healthy part of existence. And someone should have told me that and said, Please, like, don't miss out on the opportunity to study abroad in college, just because you don't want to, like, miss someone that you're dating. Like. That's, that's not acceptable. But, um, yeah, so of course, I know that it's like a developmental thing. That's good, you know, for him to learn that I will leave and then also come back. And that is, that is okay. And we can all survive. But yeah, it is, especially if he's like, going through a tough time. Where, you know, maybe he's been like arguing with his dad, or like, he got in trouble in school or something. And he's feeling extra, like needy of the, like, emotional, like, sit around and talk support that he comes to me for, you know, then I feel extra because I'm like, Oh, this is a terrible time to be leaving him. Like, why am I leaving him now? But, yeah, it's so it's hard. And then when, at the beginning of at the beginning of this year, I worked a lot to do developmental editing on this book that's coming out in the spring, and I didn't pay attention to my own social life or my family or anything. It was it was attractive as a dark time. But he like basically organized his own birthday party and like, set everything up outside and I felt a little bad because I was like, oh, no, you know, I didn't even like, I didn't even get it together to help my child. Like, just put tape on me. He's like, carrying the folding chairs outside. Yeah, so it definitely I adapt honestly feel it. And even though he like, thinks it's very cool that I'm an author, I think he thinks that authors are like, famous and make a lot of money. Yes, I want to be a writer when I grow up too. And I was like, Well, if you're doing it for the money, I'm, I'll tell you right now. That's, that's not the way but yeah, so like he thinks it's very, very cool. But I still do like, especially when I go away. Yeah, if I travel to like, I do a writing retreat with a friend every year, even if I just go for a couple days to the beach to to catch up. Yeah, it's like, it's like, right before I leave is when it's the worst. Yes. And I just have that like, avalanche of self doubt. That's like, but like, I should be here for him. And, you know, always sad and. But and then do you tell yourself that's not true? Yeah, I just tried to tell myself. No, that's, and of course, my husband says he'll be fine. It's fine. Like, he'll like when you leave, then he'll just like, you're gone. So it's not like you're leaving. It's you're already gone. And then he just will find others. He'll find stuff to do. And I'll be fine. Sorry. Okay. Usually, yeah. Oh, yeah. What sort of music are you doing? So my, when I was a kid, I was involved in a lot of community groups, my favorite was pit orchestra for musicals, operas, and stuff. That was a lot of fun. And I did some chamber music, which was also fun. And I plan to go to school for it until I didn't. And then was that violin or cello what we've learned. So I started on the violin, and I picked up the flute in fourth grade. And that was where I had the most aptitude. It's hard to find a place for yourself as a flute player sometimes. So I played violin, in some groups that were looking to fill in a big violin section, and if I actually had to be really good, that's when I got the flute I, you know, for orchestra or band or something needed someone to fill in for a concert, I would just like kind of drop in for the dress rehearsal and play the concert the next day and have a good time. I could do that on the flute. I could not do that on any other instrument for sure. Yeah. But it was it was a ton of fun. I miss it a lot. Doing that stuff. But yeah, do you play it oh, now just for fun. I haven't in a while because it's a the flute is really a group instrument as far as I'm concerned. And when I moved down here, I did not have a group I didn't I wasn't plugged into all the music community people. I no longer had a community where people would just kind of call me and say that they needed someone. And I didn't know quite how to find that. I'm not the most outgoing person anyone has ever met. So I kind of fell out of it. And then I got a little rusty and I got sad about that. And so now I sort of dabble with the piano and the guitar because they're solitary, more so or they can be but I would love to get back into it. I'm actually looking to scale back some of my other volunteer responsibilities so that I can go back to that again, because it was something that was very nourishing to me at one point in my life and it feels wasteful. It feels wasteful to have a like an outsize ability with something thing and then just to not do anything with it. And I know that's not always the best way to think about stuff but it you know, it's in the back of my head sometimes. Yeah, that was the thing that was the thing you were really good at and be it just didn't do it anymore. Why not? Well, like Yeah, yeah, but no. Yeah, you never do you know, and I I did you know post something online in the spring just to see if anybody had suggestions and I got a whole list. And so I figure when I'm feeling bold and brave, and I've, you know, quit a couple of other things that I need to pass on so you said your books coming out in spring? So what month what month? Is that? So it's April 25. Is the launch date? Yep. April 20. We have that's like our, you know, how you have like Veterans Day or something like that. What do you have? Not Memorial Day? What's your memorial Days in May? Yeah. Veterans Day is in November. Yeah. Okay, we have this that our Anzac days kind of version of that we remember the people that went to war in the First World War. So yeah, 25th. There you go. I won't forget that date. That's important that whereabouts will people be able to get your book from when it comes out? Well, so it's actually, I'm just about to launch into the shameless self promotion phase of things. That's going to be really hitting in January. That's the most uncomfortable part, I think of being an introverted artist of any kind. But it is actually available for preorder now. Yeah, so it's on Amazon. And there's your if you go on indie bound, you can get it I always tell people to get it from the independent bookstore. I know some people buy it on Amazon anyway. But the the local bookstore is where it's at. But then it'll be Yeah, it'll it should be available in ebook to Apple books and can and Kindle. But yeah, I can, I can give a link that has all of that in there. That'd be great. Even though it's the the really like heavy duty promotion is still you know, few weeks, maybe a month away the the preorder links are up and an active and testing. So I hesitate to ask then is there another book in your, in your future? So that's, yeah, there is there's more than one actually. And that's been my big struggle. This year, is getting this one is done. And I now have two or three books that are waiting to be drafted and unfinished. And I don't have anything in between. And it's like having children with a huge age gap. Between them, it's, it's a little disorienting, and you know, it's because 2020 everything shut down. And we had a year and a half I think of virtual school. You know, for which I was the point person. Yeah, so I really like the deep dark days of the pandemic and virtual school time. I did not do intensive like writing projects at all. And because it just was not it wasn't possible. Yeah, I know it was for some people it was was not for me. And I did you know my little podcast for my Patreon people and I did blog posts. But you know, I books were not getting written during like virtual school and trying to figure out how to get like canola oil on toilet paper, it just the in terms of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we were really stuck at the base for a long time. But now this year, I have come out of that I've had a lot more time to work. And it's but it is very difficult to come to terms with the work that didn't happen during that time. Because that work that didn't happen means that I don't have books that are well into the editing phase now that I've I'm like, Ah, I have to you know, really kick it into high gear and draft up these books and get them you know, somewhere. But yeah, but it was a little demoralizing for a moment. And it still is sometimes. Just just how much time I lost. And I'm sure many, many parents in my similar situation. Have that. Yeah, it's like, your, your thing had to just completely stop so that your children's things could happen. Yeah. And just that we were all all of us here all the time. Yeah, yeah. So the books, you've got your, in your head that are going to happen, are they fiction or nonfiction ones? So I have my next novel, pretty well planned out. And it's just a matter of drafting it. I've never had quite so much a plan before. I mean, it's a very loose plan, because I don't, I'm not a heavy outliner or planner for fiction. And nonfiction, I have an essay collection that I've been working on. That's my, my next two nonfiction books are going to be much less prescriptive than, than the first and much more like personal experience writing like memoir style. Because that's a lot of people seem to have connected with my writing makes you feel seen. Yeah. And to have an experience similar to their own, like, articulated in a certain way. And so I'm excited to really, like lean into that. Yeah. It sounds good, to be very valuable, you know, people feel like what they're going through is legitimate, I guess. And you talked about that community that you've sort of built around your first book. Yeah, yeah. So important. A lot of people have written and said, you know, thank you for putting this out there. And I thought that I was the only one who had this experience. And, you know, it's reassuring to know that it's not just me. So good on Yeah. Because it can be quite daunting to sort of share like that, to put it all out there. And did you have moments like that when you're writing the book, you're thinking or do I? How much of this do I want to share? I suppose, or are you just passionate about getting it all out there. So as a nonfiction writer, I, I don't have a whole lot of a filter. I although I will say some of my most successful writing has been the stuff I was most afraid to put out there. So that kind of says something. I actually feel a lot more anxious about putting my not my fiction out into the world, which is an interesting thing. I think it's just because I know not everyone's gonna like me. And so as a nonfiction writer, you know, if people don't, this is who I am. And if it doesn't resonate with people, or they, they don't like, they don't like me or my take on the world, then it's, in some ways easier for me to just be like, okay, like, really, I've, I've never been for everyone. And I don't need to be the likeable character in your story, either. So that's okay. A lot of people are responding to it. Yeah, but fiction and something that's entirely your own creation. It's, it does feel very different. Because it's, yeah, it's something that I created specifically to resonate with the most people possible. But even so, if you've ever been in a book club, it no book is for everyone. Yeah, I kind of feel like that. Like, we've, in general, like, I mean, I love I love and respect every artist that I meet because of what they're doing, just because they're doing the thing that they love, and they getting it out there. But I don't necessarily resonate with every kind of art, you know, and same with music, ya know? And I think that's fine. That's what makes us human and different. We're all different. And that's fine either. That's, yeah, that's completely normal. Yeah, that's resonating with someone it's, you know, it's and but it is interesting because I it occurred to me at some point this year, so I'm a lot more nervous about this book launch earlier on, than I was with the last one. The last one was like on launch day, I kind of had a little bit of a panic. Just like what if this is actually terrible, and no one told me but You know, which this book is not self published. So it's I mean, I, I've had like a whole team behind it. It's not terrible and no one said anything. It's still like, I know, because I just know people, you know, people are gonna get on Good Reads and write some scathing criticism. And it's just it's going to happen and it's why they tell you don't read your don't read your own reviews. Yeah, it's better not to know. You just gotta be what you've done. And if people message and say how much they loved it, that's what you hold on to. Yeah, no, I have a whole folder of those like, I never get rid of those. Those reader emails, I just drag them all into the into the little folder. Alright, whenever I need this. Yes, that is awesome. Yep. Good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. I really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a pleasure to meet you. All the best with the with the release that's coming out in April, and with your future work, and I'll definitely share anything I say because I just think what you're doing is awesome. And yeah. Thanks again. Oh, thank you. Yeah, no, this is nice. I appreciate it. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim, Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband John. If you'd like to learn more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Scott Shriner Bass guitarist for rock band Weezer S4Ep102 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts This Friday you can enjoy listening to 2 special podcasts to celebrate Father's Day in Australia this coming weekend. The first is from Scott Shriner, bass player in the band Weezer, dad of 2 boys, and husband to author Jillian Lauren who is a previous guest of the podcast! Scott grew up in a musical home and studied jazz from an early age. He played trombone, and then bass guitar. In 2001 he joined American alt rock band Weezer and has ben touring the world since. He is the dad of 2 adopted boys, Jovi and Tariku, and i am so grateful for him giving me this interview between legs of the band's current tour. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Scott and Weezer thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online licence agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Scott's interview with Scott and Ian that we reference a few times Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

Andrea Rees Australian mixed media visual artist + creativity coach S2 Ep47 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts My guest today is Andrea Rees, a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East Corrimal, NSW, and a mum of 2 boys. Originally from Vancouver, Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20 to study mixed media, her main mediums being photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating Andrea spent 4 years in advertising in account management. After realising it was not filling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher. After her 2nd son was born, ongoing health concerns meant that the ongoing level of support that he needed guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art, and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for mums who are searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through, who lost themselves in their motherhood, and can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chat about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her first child and the joy Andrea takes from supporting other mums. And the ever popular topic, the value we as society place on art, and the people who make it. **This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD and a childhood chromosome disorder** Andrea links / Instagram / Creative Village Facebook page Podcast website / Instagram MakeShift Creative See the painting my son Digby helped me complete When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you here. My guest today is Andrea Reyes. Andrea is a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East caramel in New South Wales, and she's a mom of two boys. Originally from Vancouver in Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20. To study mixed media, her main mediums been photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating, Andrew spent four years in advertising in account management, after realizing it was not feeling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher after his second son was born. Health Concerns meant the ongoing level of support he needed, guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for moms who are seeking and searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through those who have lost themselves in motherhood, they can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chatted about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her fifth child. And the joy Andrea takes from supporting other moms and the ever popular topic, the value where society plays on it, and the people who make it. This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD, and childhood chromosome disorder. Welcome to the podcast today, Andrea, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're in Sydney. Yes. So your accents, not from Sydney. We're events. So originally, I'm from Vancouver, Canada. And I've got an Australian father and a Canadian mom raised me in Vancouver. And then when I was 20, I took off and finished my degree of Visual Arts at Sydney Uni and just wanted to do something different. So yeah, that's it. Awesome. So you mentioned visual arts tell us what you do what you create. So I'm a mixed media artist. And I'm also a coach for moms who want to find their creativity. So my main medium is photography and painting. Drawing. And my major at uni was ceramics. So I really love ceramics, but it's just a bit of a harder medium to work with when you don't have the equipment. And it's kind of like a three stage process. So yeah, it's a lot more a lot more. More complex. That's why I think I've fallen really into photography and stuff because it's much more accessible and workable in motherhood. Yeah, for sure. So let's go back to the beginning. How did you first get into all these different types of creative? Oh, I guess I'm just through high school and my parents put me in ceramics from the age of 10. Just in our neighborhood. There's a lady who was doing it out of her garage, a mum and yet I did some workshops like a raccoon horse and stuff like that when I was young, just loved clay and then went through to college and like, just before and to uni and and yeah, you you do your foundational year where you kind of have a try of everything and yeah, I just really loved photography and in high school I just I loved the darkroom so much. And yeah, I was really fortunate that we had one in our school and yeah, I think it just sort of just developed it definitely was just a creative kid. And like, I remember days when it would be raining and mum would pull out like a paint by number set for me. And I just work on it at the dining table. And I just loved that sort of thing. So yes, over the years it kind of built and built and yeah, then yeah, did my degree and yeah, I just really, yeah, I loved ceramics at Sydney, uni. And, yeah, it was just, it was just really unfortunate. When I came out of there. I just had this concept in my head because I did clay that why can't do it now. Because I don't have the money. I don't have the materials. I don't have the equipment. So what am I going to do? So I kind of Yeah, stepped away for it for many years, which was now I look back and I think that's so sad. I lost so many years not being able to create. Yeah, but I think with everything you you create, like, everyone's creative, and I think you you express your creativity somehow, some way, you know, and I probably that's when I probably fell more into photography, because it was accessible. And I could use it all the time. Hmm, yeah. Did you sort of decide you were going to make a life with art, I suppose that it was going to be what you did? Mmm hmm. Yeah, I just kept coming back to it. And so after uni, I because I had this idea in my head that I couldn't continue with ceramics. I was like, you know, I'm an adult. I'm in the big world, like, how am I going to make money and but I still obviously, I'm interested in the arts. So I went into advertising, and I sort of fell into account management. And it just was not filling my creative cup enough. It was very administrative. And I liked working with the designers and stuff. But even a lot of them were really like, not super, you know, they they just said it was kind of making art for other people. It was what they wanted. Even the end decision was like the clients choice, obviously, some so they could be really creative with it, but it usually didn't fly. So yeah. So yeah, so I left advertising after four years. And then I decided to sort of my husband and I were going to settle down. So we moved down this way from Sydney. And then I studied at Wollongong, uni and did my Graduate Diploma of education. So became a high school art teacher. So yeah, that was kind of always my dream. And like growing up, I always thought I would be a great teacher. And yeah, it was I was kind of making that happen now. So I was at a good time in my life where you were going to start a family and stuff, and I thought this will be a good job for me. Yeah, but yeah, it's just funny, like just reflecting back and thinking about it, that there's just such a, you know, an idea in society that arts just not like the pathway to go for stability. And, you know, which is just so sad, because now being on the other side of that, I think it's totally up to you, like you're fully in control of making that happen. So yeah, it's just I think you just feel really unsupported along that journey. In Yeah, in society. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that a lot of conversations I've had lately with mums have been around the value, and I mean, monetary value that we place on the arts. And a lot of it sort of has become really evident, I think with the shutdowns through the COVID time, like, all the footy clubs going and all the footy players were traveling across the borders, but there were all these restrictions, so no one could put on their shows like, you know, visual artists, performance, anything like that all shut down. It's like, well hang on a minute, like, every time you turn the radio on or the TV or, you know, you're watching a streaming service, everything's been made by a Creator by an artist and it's, I think it I hope people sort of woke up to that. People on the other side of the You know, yeah, the value of the arts in society is actually so huge. And it really makes our, it allows us to connect. It really makes our world like so much more interesting than if. Yeah, like, we went through a period of like two years where we just locked it down and how sad and people really, you know, struggled and suffered in that time. Like, just even just live music. Like, I don't think I realized how much I enjoyed going to live music and I'm not like a huge live music. You know, follower. I don't kind of, you know. Yeah. But, um, but I definitely, yeah, I enjoy it. And when bands come to town and stuff for gigs, yeah, play locally. Like, I love live music. So yeah, yeah. It's been an interesting time. Do you have an eye opener? So you've got some children? Can you share a little bit about them? Yes. So I've got two boys. So yeah, I think this is when my, like, I came around to my art and creativity was actually from motherhood. So my first boy is five years old now. So he's just starting kindergarten this year. So I feel like it's developing more and more as they grow up. But yeah, he's off to school. And my youngest is three now. So he's at daycare this year, three days a week. So he was two days last year. So yeah, it's exciting, because I'm just getting a little bit more time where I can do awesome stuff like this, and coaching and work on creating and art shows and stuff like that. So yeah, it's exciting. What's developing? Hmm. So going back to when maybe when it wasn't, so I wouldn't say exciting. I have so much time. How did you go? Sort of continuing to be able to create when you Oh, first child? Yeah. So um, I guess. So with my first child, I had a, I had a great pregnancy, like, I thought I was gonna be a really, I wasn't gonna thrive as a pregnant woman. But I actually just have absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed being pregnant my first time. But then I ended up having a traumatic birth and I had a really bad birth. So that was just, I think, such a shock to my husband and I, what we went through, and just such a poor start to parenthood. And then he had a lot of complications like reflux and food intolerances and that sort of thing. So we struggled, like in that first year, a lot just trying to survive. And then I really lost myself, I just thought the way to go with motherhood is like you devote your you know, just, you know, devote yourself to your kid, and, you know, give them everything you've got. And yeah, really depleted myself and lost my identity. And then it actually was a friend, another art teacher, an artist and a teacher, who I studied with, and we've worked together and stuff since that, she kind of approached me and was like, there's this art show coming up. I really think like, You should do it with me. And I was just like, oh, no, I can't do that. Like, oh, I think it was like, in three months time or something. And she was like, Yeah, you, you know, you could easily, you know, work on this on the weekends or something. And she just talked to me realistically, like, kind of make making these excuses that she doesn't have children. And I kind of thought, Oh, you don't know, because you don't have kids yet or what it's like, but what she was saying was making a lot of sense. Like I was just making these excuses. That completely didn't make any sense. And so I said, Yeah, you're right, actually, I could, I could go and photograph that. And then I could, you know, I could get it printed, and then I could start to put it on to it was plywood that we were working on. And I could probably lay that down and she offered to come and help me and everything. She was so supportive, great friend. And I thought Yeah, I can do this. Like I can totally do this. And then I ended up Yeah, I just I was so blown away by the result I got that I was so excited by it. And I felt amazing. Like through the process, I was like, This is me this is like, I've found myself again. And like, I was just, yeah, so happy that I was still mothering and but yet I was creating and being myself and I had this like, wonderful balance. And so after that, I entered another show, and I ended up making us at all, I'll just do one artwork again. And then I ended up producing for it was so that was great. I really loved it. Yeah. And then that's kind of been the way I've just continued. And she's been there along beside me saying, you know, what do you think about this? Like, should we enter this again? And yeah, she's been such a wonderful friend they fell pregnant again, we kind of got to a stage where we felt like things were manageable and easier. And, and yeah, we our son was kind of at the age where we wanted to add our second child, we wanted to have two kids. So we had our second child, that pregnancy was okay. Not as easy as the first but it was okay. birth was completely controlled planned, Cesar, because we were just so terrified of something happening again. But then, probably three months after he was born, we started realizing that he had a lot of complications, health concerns and stuff. And he wasn't thriving, and was so confusing, and really, really difficult time. And basically, it went on and on every month, there was something new going on. Something new popped up. That wasn't good. And you Yeah, I kind of had seen so many specialists and doctors and talked to so many people and everyone kept telling me to, you know, stop worrying and that you're you know, he'll he'll catch up because he was delayed and stuff. And all these red flags that were going off there was saying Don't worry about it, you know, it's nothing, nothing severe or anything. And anyway, by a year and a half, and neurologists said to me, you've kind of exhausted every avenue and do you want to do genetic testing? And I said, Yes, I want to do genetic testing, if that, you know, confirms anything. And so sure enough, it came back that he's got a chromosome disorder. So yeah, that was kind of like a huge relief, a bit, you know, difficult as well. But we finally had an answer to what was going on. And yeah, so he's got he's got some difficulties physically and mentally and like growth wise and stuff like that. So yeah, it just kind of then I kind of had all my answers. And I knew what I was dealing with what I was working with and going, Okay, this is going to change now because I don't think like I had returned to teaching. After having my first and in between there. I was also starting to teach art workshops and stuff with a company locally here called makeshift creative. So they, yeah, connect, like creative people in the community with the community. And so I was teaching art workshops, and I was entering art exhibitions and getting back into my art while raising my first son. And then I returned to work had my second son, and then I just could not get back to work. And I was like, Everyone kept saying, you know, when are you going to return and I wasn't, like coping very well. So people were kind of pushing that because they thought that might be good for me, I think, because I'm definitely someone who, yeah, I was happy to go back to work at like eight months with my first. Um, so then yeah, I just couldn't get back there. So then I decided, You know what I've got to, like, rethink this because I think going back to a high school setting and trying to teach art as well as like, my son is he goes to, you know, our sorry, speech therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy and music therapy. We take him swimming, so he's in a lot of things and it's kind of like a part time job in itself just working with him and stuff. So yeah, supporting him, so I just couldn't kind of return to that. So that's when I was like, I'm gonna start a business And art is definitely what I want to work in, like, definitely my passion. So yeah. And it's taken me that in itself has been like a year long journey of just discovering what exactly is it that I want to do? So I've kind of come all the way around and said, I want to help like moms who went through what I went through who kind of lost themselves in their motherhood. And I definitely feel like there needs to be more support for moms. And yeah, I'm just, I coach them and help them get back to their creativity find their creativity, or even moms who've never been kind of creative, and they see the benefit in it, because it's so important. So yeah, that's awesome. That is so great. Yeah. I love that. So long winded but no, no, no, no, that's so good night. I think that's just so wonderful. Because you're right there isn't there? Isn't anyone out there? I mean, you are now but there's no, I mean, like your friend said to you, like, there's no, like, it's not a formal thing that people go, right. Okay. So this is what happened. But now you can do this, and have you thought about this, or, or try this, or, you know, you're essentially taking on that role of the person that can. And because you've got that, you know, perspective yourself, you know, how hard it is, you can sort of see all the, the barriers, I suppose, and then just break them down and go. Yeah. A lot of my coaching is actually, like, it's, it's, it works on your thoughts. It's not, it's not strategy, like you should be doing this. Like, I'm not going to tell you, hey, what worked for me was entering art exhibitions, that got me back to my creativity. It's actually like, all mindsets. And it's like even looking back at my uni days, and when I left, like, I literally put my art down and walked away from it for probably, like, 15 years, like, like, serious artmaking for so long of my life, which is now I just feel so sad that that happened. And it was just a mindset thing that I was like, I can't I can't do this anymore, because I'm not at uni, and I don't have a job to like, support it, or I can't be successful with this and make money from it. Which actually, there's there's definitely, you know, that's just the thought that I had that stopped me from creating. Hmm. Which is the thing if you had had someone like, yeah, so yeah, actually, have you? Yeah, yeah. So that's why I feel like coaching is so important. And I meet with coach, so after this time, meet with my coach on a Tuesday. And, yeah, I have an hour session with her and she helps me with my business and, and supporting those moms. So yeah, I think it's such important work. It's, it's really, and it's all that kind of self care work. Like you're investing back into yourself. And like I yeah, basically, I create my art from, you know, the work I do with coaching and with, like, the work that my friend did for me, you know, that all came from that kind of work. So, yeah, that's so important. I think that's so great. Honestly, it feels like in a way, like you received that help, and you're sort of paying it forward. Yeah. You're, you're giving other moms the tools that you were able to gain? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just basically taking, like what I've learned from my own experience, and then, yeah, helping other moms with it, who might be dealing with the same sort of thing can relate and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's really not, there's not too much of it out there. You know, like, it's kind of Nishi like, it's a little bit. Yes, specific, but I think it's really important. And I think, yeah, there's lots of mums. So and there's a whole range, like, there's moms who, you know, were quite successful before and have lost themselves completely, or there's, you know, moms who've never done it before. And they're like, Wow, I really like I love the benefits that she's getting from this. Like, I might have a go at art or some that are like, I used to love it in high school. I've had lots come to art workshops and say, you know, I've, I loved it in high school, and I've just never gotten back to it again. And I'd like to now in my motherhood like I would like to have a go again. Yeah. Is it really it's so important to have something for yourself, isn't it? Yeah. Away from your role as a mother? Yeah, that's been a huge like realization. I've got a five and a half year old it saved me five years kind of come around to the fact that actually, it's so important that my husband have his he's a surfer. And now he's just gotten really after at the end of COVID. He's gotten we live between the ocean and the escarpment. And so he's gotten really into downhill mountain biking. Right now he's kind of got the two to use, you know, if one's not good, or something like that. Appropriate. So, um, yeah, like, I think before I was very much like your father, now you need to be a dad and be here, you know, 24/7 and devote everything to your children. And actually, that just burns you out. And then you're completely useless. And that's not healthy for your kids, either. To see parents like that, you know, just and upset and create, like, you will burn out and then it will come out in other ways, you know, so absolutely. It's just not healthy for a family unit to just be kind of, it'd be like, in a relationship, like just living and working and everything together and never having a break. Like you need that break to miss, you know, the other person and then come back and be, you know, completely full and giving. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? And that's the thing too, like, if you've had a lot of moms I've spoken to, they've been artistic their whole lives. Yeah. And even when they got married, one of my, one of my previous guests, Sammy Lange said to her husband, just before they got married, you know, this is what I do. I'm not gonna all of a sudden start cleaning the house. And the same thing happens when you become a mom. It's not like all of a sudden, you go, Well, I'm gonna forget all that thing. That thing that I loved my whole life. I'm just that part of me is gone. Now. Now I have to be on, you know, certainly for a portion of time, that might be the case. Because you know, early, early babies are like, the babies. Yeah, the first, you know, few months is incredibly demanding. So yeah, challenging to find even the time to sleep, let alone do something for yourself. But as time moves on, it's like that part of you is still there. It's just a matter of sort of getting back to it, I guess. Yeah. I think like, she was so I think, wow, because she was so emotionally mature at that age, like at that time to be able to recognize that because I didn't, I was like, well, here I go. Like, I'm into the next stage of my, my life. And like, I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like, you can't Well, for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing a whole I was I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me, not like I wasn't in control of it, kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything. And but yeah, like, wow, for her that she's just been able to do that right from the get go. And she made that a priority. It's taken me like, a long time to realize that and make it a priority for myself. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, it happens, isn't it? And I guess, it depends how you've grown up what your, you know, your role modeling was like, from your parents about, you know, what was what value was placed on what I suppose? Yeah, we're also different, aren't we? Yeah. But I think it's so important to spend that time becoming conscious and aware of that, and like, figuring that out, and realizing how that impacts you. And yeah, recognizing your, your own individual, you know, upbringing and, and the person you become and then you're in full control of changing that and, you know, controlling your future moving forward. So take that and then consciously choose like what you want to do. Yeah, your future. Yeah. So you raise your kids right. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, isn't it? Because they're watching like, you know, they're observing what's going on around them and yeah, even at such a young age, and like you said before, we you know, if you burnt out you know, you start to get impatient and you you know, your relationships suffer like the kids they see and feel all of it so, oh yeah, it's so important, isn't it? Yeah. So identities a big thing, be yourself and feed them Moms who code What about mum guilt? Is that something that sort of comes into it as well, that idea that moms shouldn't be doing something for themselves? They should be mums. Or? Well, I yeah, I thought about this. And I think we all suffer from Mum guilt, like, must be in US innately. But I would say I probably I probably suffer less than average, like, I definitely I am constantly. Yeah, looking for ways to you know, get a break, or that sort of thing. See my husband, he works interstate, every week, he travels around Australia. And so there's like three nights a week where I'm on my own. Luckily, I've got my parents, they've moved here from Canada, eight years ago, and they live like five minutes up the road from me. I don't know how I would do this. Yeah, without having my parents nearby. They've been such great support. And through all, like, the medical journey we've been on with our youngest and stuff, so. Yeah, so I'm always looking for things that I can, you know, a weekend away or like, a night away, or like a workshop to attend or? Yeah, where can I get go for like, a float or like, a massage or just for Yeah, bushwalk I can go and do or friends where I can catch up with like, ways that I can fill my cup. So I'm, yeah, I feel like I don't have enough of that stuff. I need to always that's a constant work is trying to make sure I'm taking a break. And when I get it, I like I'm out. I don't find home and check in or night or anything like that. Like I'm like, switched off. I'm enjoying it for as much as possible. Because yeah, I just know that when I'm back, you know? Um, yeah, it's just all about mom like 100% Yeah, so I don't tend to get to about a mum guilt. I guess you kind of like, you kind of have moments where you look at it. Well, for me, I look at it like big picture. And you know, the time flies with kids growing up and you think, yeah, I guess you kind of reflect and say, you know, did I do enough of that? Or did I do enough of this? Or, like, you know that I missed out on that or something like that. So I think that mom guilt kind of creeps in and yeah, but I think I don't know I'm I try to be pretty compassionate with myself and say, like, you're doing a bloody good job. And you know, like, cut yourself on Slack. You've got a lot on your plate. So um, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I feel for the moms like that's, that's why I'm doing the work. I'm doing feel for the moms too. But that's my art art workshops are a big part of that and getting the moms out of their house. My art workshops are minimum three hours, because I might you need three hours, don't need an hour and a half. Like, you know, you need three hours to walk out a home to connect with other moms, other women to really get into the art and relax and be you know, in the moment, being mindful and like, yeah, just filling your cup for a good three hours and then returning home, you know, and that's healthy for the carer who's on the other end to have that time with the kids too. And for the kids to have that time with the the other partner or carer you know, to? Yeah, to be to be taken care of by someone other than mum or, huh. I think that's something we forget to it's like they have relationships with other people. Yeah, they need to have the time to build on them as well. Like, yeah, I mean, maybe I'm saying that to justify it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they make time with other faithful. Yeah, my boys are really good with everybody else. They go to other people. They Yeah, they happily have, you know, they'll go for a sleepover or something with their cousins or, like, yeah, they're really good like that. And I think that's probably just how we've been raising them. Yeah, maybe. You're listening to the odd thing I'm gonna ask you a question. Yeah, that wasn't on the list. So I'll give you some time to think about it. If I just just as we've been talking, I just wondered what in your experience with your coaching what is like the biggest issue or the biggest? Yeah, I guess It's an issue that stops me from creating or holds them back from creating. Um, I would say, I think, initially, everyone thinks that it's time. Or it's energy. That they don't have enough time as a mom more time poor. Or we're tired, you know, we're exhausted. Surely I can't take on something else like, but that's not what arts about, like my creativity, I should say. Because when I say creativity, I'm talking like the mums I help can be anyone from you know, just like the moms you interview from singers and musicians, to writers to artists. So yeah, I think we think that we're kind of time poor, and we don't have time to take this on. But yeah, it's actually adding to you it's not like something that is meant to be more work, it's meant to be enjoyable and a break, and then it feels your carbon gives back to you to your mothering. So, um, yeah, I would say that's probably a big one. But that's what I kind of worked through them with their thoughts is that, you know, we use time kind of as like an excuse. But is it really time? Or is it actually something deeper than that? So we kind of work on that deeper level of what's really what what are you really thinking in your head? What's really, what's the fear there that's kind of holding you back from from doing this, you know, whether it's creating your art or it's sharing your art, you know? Yeah. Are you doing things like procrastinating? Or are you being a perfectionist about it like, so it's more that sort of? Yeah, thought work, then. Yeah, any of those kind of surface level excuses? Yeah. Do you find people feel? And I'm just saying this from the feedback I've had, when I've chatted to other mums? Does the some of them feel like what they're doing will be judged as being a bit of fluffing around and not that important? So it's like, what are you doing that for? sort of thing? Is that just coming into it a bit? I yeah, that definitely comes into it, I think. Yeah, that's just, yeah, you're always going to have I think people around you who have their own thoughts about art, and that's, you know, might come from society's value of art. But yeah, everyone's got their own thoughts and values. And so you just have to kind of think that's fine, that's your thoughts, but that they're not mine. And I'm not going to take that on, I'm not going to kind of let that affect me. But it is hard, because that can be someone like your partner, or it can be like a parent or something like that. So somebody who you really want for support, or you really think or your support team can actually be kind of not the people you should go to, to get to seek support from for this sort of thing. So yeah, I think again, just being conscious and knowing, like, yeah, being aware of what's kind of around you and being selective as to what you take on and what are your own values? And what are your own thoughts? And yeah, and running with those and not sort of letting? Letting? Yeah, other thoughts kind of influence? Yeah, yeah. And I guess then being sort of, like you said, the people that perhaps you shouldn't go to for this sort of stuff, like seeking out those people that are your tribe, I suppose. Yeah, he's not ready. But you know, what I made the paper that are on the same page that will support you and give you the confidence that you might be needing Exactly. So my girlfriend is definitely like someone I would go to, who supported me when I was with my first child, I would go to her for, you know, a bit of a boost or some feedback. But I have made a Facebook group for this because I've found that this is something that's kind of missing is like that community support of other like minded women. So we can, you know, in there, we can encourage each other or ask for feedback or, you know, just talk about different topics or struggles that we're kind of going through or even sharing just our motherhood challenges that are happening. So it's really niche. Nishi kind of like, what we're dealing with, is really specific that other people can't kind of relate to so there's, there's certain aspects that people do and that's great. Um, I'm glad that kind of helps. But yeah, it is it is quite specific. What we need need that community that network for so yeah, I've got a Facebook page called Creative village. So it's like, you know, your village, but creatively it takes a really? Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes for anybody that's, that's keen. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that are. And I'll certainly be checking it out. But yeah, when you're talking before about this, like, you know, it might be your partner or your, your parents or maybe parents in law that no, don't see the value I just want to reflect on there was an experience with a mum that I interviewed, I think last season, who's the parents in law were babysitting the dog? There was like, the hammer square, but they would, because she's the daughter in law, right? So she's not like number one. So the daughter was getting the child babysat by these grandparents, because she was going to work. Yeah, but then the grandparents didn't want to babysit the other child, because the mom was just making her art. Yeah, it was like, they didn't value in that at all. And that's like, ah, it just makes you just so cross, you know, that. I know, everybody's different. And I shouldn't judge people, but it's hard not to see, like, how devalued that that mum would feel. Yeah, you know, by that one person saying, Oh, well know what you're doing isn't worthy enough. It's not real work. Yeah. And that's just like demoralizing. So having people around you that can go? That That's a load of crap. support you? Yeah. So important. Really, that's really tough. Because it would that would have an impact on you. And you would probably question, you know, what is this a waste of time or something like that? You're like, you, you get all these thoughts coming to you about like, that are coming from that. And you know, so? Um, yeah, I think just being really strong on what you value and what's important to you what you need is so is so important. And then yeah, finding the right people around you that can kind of support you. Like, when I the last art exhibition, I entered, it was a still life show. I'm still like prize, I ended up painting. Like, I just paint around the house. So I just painted on my back. Entertaining table, like my dining table, outdoor dining table was beautiful as like, sunny, we yeah, we were really lucky with the weather. And the kids just want to get involved. And I've talked to other artists, moms who they've got like a studio in their home and that sort of thing. And they say the kids come in and out like all the time and that's so beautiful to for, for, you know, the kids to grow up in the studio and to be around that creativity and value that growing up like, Yeah, I think there is a bit of a balance there between, like having your own space to focus and stuff. Certain work requires that like this, for example, with the kids in the background, but like, yeah, if you can involve them and have them working beside you like some there's an artist that I follow. Um, I can't remember her name now. Um, she gets her she's quite famous in Australia, and she gets her daughter to work on her paintings, like, and they're in galleries and everything. And they're beautiful. And it's so no, I think more of that needs to kind of happen with Yeah, with with artists, moms that just it just adds that layer into like artists mom's work that for sure. Yeah. You know, I think that's, I think that's so cool. I would love to do that. At one point. If I can get my boys involved in my work. That would be amazing. I'm just trying to see if I've got it. I can't see where it is now. But I did. I'm not I like to paint just to fluff around because yeah, my main thing is singing and writing music and stuff. But I love I love fluffing around with brushes and stuff. It's just I just feel really nice when I'm flowing. So I did this, this like it's all abstract, mostly fuel Watercolor, I'm getting better at making flowers. But it's Yeah, practice my gosh, it's practice in that. Yeah, yeah, I have the patience for it. But I did this big abstract bits and bobs. And then I gave it to my six year old and said, and gave him my pastels and said, he goes, you finish this off, and I look at it. And it's like, I would never thought to do what he's done. Like, it's so kids look at their creativity. And it wasn't like he'd even I think I can't remember how he described it. But like it was his idea of whatever this thing was, he tried to represent it. So he's gone. I'm going to draw this thing. And he just tried to draw that to me. It just looks like amazing marks on the page. It just looks so cool. I'm like Digby, that looks that looks like a proper art now thank you for your I didn't touch I couldn't have done that. Because I'm a lot of my create my art stuff is like, I've got to get it to look the way I want it to. And because I can't do that because I don't have the skills. I just end up getting frustrated when I'm digressing. I wanted to talk a bit more about your own art that you create in your photography and such. Yeah, what sort of things influence your work? Well, I'd say, like, when I first started, I was, I would say I was more influenced by making art that people would buy. I think that's a big thing. Artists kind of deal with is like, making Yes, stuff to sell or just expressing themselves and working. And I would say like if I was in, if I had more, yeah. If I had more time, it's just kind of funny. But I'm like, because I do the coaching and I do my art making my art making is really like a I wouldn't even say part time like It's like quarter time because I've got you know, parenting and then my coaching. And so anyway, if I was like a full time artist, and I wanted to do that full time, like I would think that I would be in a studio for a long time. And I would be you know, just spitting out artwork that I wanted to express and how I was feeling and that sort of thing. But when I'm making for exhibitions, there's usually like a theme I'm working with, or Yeah, like, or in the beginning, I was thinking a lot about what would people want on their walls. So I was making things more about and I used to be really into because I grew up in Canada. And then I moved to Australia, I was really interested in landscapes and that kind of like the juxtaposition of the two. And yeah, that I just really love both, even though they're so different. So I did a lot of landscape stuff. But now I'd say the most recent show, I did the still life prize, it was all about motherhood and I'm really interested in starting to yeah, really, I obviously value that so much. It's such an important part. To me. It's really like the most important thing in my life that's happened to me is what I've gone through and becoming a mum. So I really want to express that more and just yeah, it's just not in society. It's just not spoken about enough. And it's there's not enough awareness about what what happens. So I think using art as a medium to express that is awesome. So that's probably what I'll be doing more of the next pieces I do. Yeah, will be more about motherhood and hopefully I can get to a place where I start to, you know, work through I get to express like my experience of my motherhood, like the trauma from my first birth and complications that I've gone through with my second son so yeah, we'll see how it goes. You know, like right now? Yeah, a lot of us feel really helpless. And you know how, as a mom at home with my kids, can I help like what's going on in the world, but really, that work is so important. Like, we wouldn't have, you know, a Putin out there right now if, you know, there was a different upbringing, or that's an incredible way of looking at it. So important, our work was really valuable, really important and, you know, doing that work of whatever you whatever way you parent, your parenting style, but mine's probably more like gentle parenting. So, yeah, all that work you put in as a mom with your kids is you're bringing the future, you know, generation of people into this world. And that's really, really important. evety Like maybe if Putin did a bit of art like right, maybe I bet he was stifled every now. He wasn't even allowed to get out. Or anything. She was like that you're not doing it? So this is Charlotte Conde who was one of my guests in season two. And she said as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yes. It's like, what we're actually doing is CRISPR is still messy. You have to know you have to contribute to society. It's like what we Yeah. Seriously, motherhood? Just just, yeah, there's just this. Yeah, this there's no clear idea about what it is or what it what it does or anything. And yeah, I think this is such a different perspective. Like before you become a mom on what it's going to be like and what to expect. And you know, and you just think, like, that's why my husband and I were in such a shock when we had our, our first because no one told us that that was gonna be a possibility or like, yeah, that we were gonna have a tough year or anything like that, like we thought, you know, we're gonna have this beautiful baby and then bring them home and we're just gonna cut along and it's gonna be wonderful. Yeah, no screaming and like sleepless night. Yeah. So yeah, that's it sounds very similar to my story. It took me seven years to have my second because the first one was just like, What the hell yeah. And just Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, I feel like people, they try to give you an idea of what it's gonna be like, yeah, based on their experience, but you're not even in that headspace to even understand what they mean. Like when they say you're not going to get sleep. You go, Oh, that's nice. Like, whatever. You don't actually realize that. That's what they mean. Yeah, totally. I remember reading a book. And it said about this particular type different types of babies like ancient babies, or grumpy babies or whatever. And I'm like, my baby's gonna be perfect. I don't even need to read this. Like it was just denial complete. It's hilarious. Yeah. And there's just this like, you know, idea from society that moms just stay home and they live such good life, because they're just at home and like, they just are watching soap operas all day and have their feet up. And it's so easy, and the kids are easy. And it's like, yeah, you have no idea. No idea. No idea. You happy to talk a bit more about your first birth with the trauma involve? Yeah, I'm a pretty open book. Basically, like, I had a similar experience. I mean, I'm not saying similar because I don't know what you're about to say. But with my second birth, yeah, first birth was first one. I got induced because I had really high blood pressure. Yeah. He come out in an hour and a half. And it was horrific because they didn't have time to do pain relief. And that was the thing like when you have your first everyone says, Oh, it'll take 12 to 14 hours. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. And even the doctor when he came in and administered the drug to and broke my waters. He said, I'll see. I'll see. And I'll see you in 12 to 14 hours. He was joking. And then when I was laying there, and I felt like I felt like I needed your poo. But basically, I felt like I needed to push. And I told them, I said, I need to push. And they said, they looked at me like I was an idiot. And I was like, I feel like there's a bowling ball coming out of my bum. Like it just, that's the only way I could describe it. And they race to get this doctor. And he come up. And he was like, surely not like, again, like I was an idiot. And did a check on me. It was the first day it was surprising. It was horrible. Yeah. So he didn't check any could feel here. And it was like, You're literally about to these babies coming out of you. And it was horrible. It was horrible. And then with my second I said straight up, I need an epidural. Because if he comes, this one comes really quick. I need to be prepared because obviously last one was too late. And because he he was very tiny, he was only four pound 14 When he was born. Because he'd they, I don't know how, but between I had shared care between my midwife at the clinic and then the actual doctor. So between the two of them, they'd somehow missed that his growth had sort of plateaued at about 34 weeks. They hadn't picked that up. So it wasn't too Yeah, nine days before he was due. He the doctor did the scan you guys, your baby stopped growing. And I was like, I didn't know I had this feeling. I didn't have this beautiful big round bump. I had like a lopsided weird bump. And basically all the amniotic fluid had gone. And he'd stopped growing because my placenta had the blood supply was not working properly. So all of a sudden, it's like to get this baby out. Yeah, I didn't do it that day. Thank goodness. It was like two days later. Yeah. And we just had the worst experience like right from the start. We got to the hospital. We had this horrible midwife who told us we were late. And it was like, we got we got told to be there at a certain time. We were like five minutes late, because we couldn't get in through the door of the hospital. And then just thing after thing after thing went wrong. He came, they did the epidural and the epidural was too. He done it too high. So my lungs were starting to stop working like Oh, my breathing is compromised. Then he broke the waters there was nothing there. What did they do? It was just my husband. I think he's still traumatized by watching happen. So they're nice. They tend to to me sideways to let the to move the the epidural stuff, somehow they tilted me sideways because I could feel one leg but not the other. And it was just thing after thing after thing. And eventually, when it came time to push like not a not even push the contraction started. And his his heart rate was going down but it wasn't coming back up. So they were like, well, it's okay that it goes down. But it needs to come back up like a real set shows he's in in stress. They basically they said to me, we've got to get this baby out. And I was like, right and the like, we've got to go have a cesarean so I went to do that. And I'm thinking, Oh, this would be great. We'll get this over with but then when they were doing it, I could, I couldn't feel like I thought I'd be numb, like completely numb. And I wouldn't even know what they were doing down there. But I could feel stuff. So then I started to get all panicky because I couldn't. And I was it was horrible. My midwife when stood over by the wall, and just basically abandoned us. And thank God there was this beautiful theater nurse who came over and she was like stroking my head like it's okay, this is what's happening. This is what's happening next, whatever, she just took charge. And then eventually he come out and you know, he was he's fine. He just was very small. He just didn't have any fat on him. So his lungs were developed. Like everything was fine. Yeah. And then and then the OH MY GOD on the way back to the, to the room. She asked what we're going to name him. And his name is Digby. And she goes, Ah, I know a friend with a dog called Digby. And I was like oh my gosh, really doing this to me after everything's done to me. Now you're doing this. And then sorry, I'm really going on about it now. Obviously need to work through this today. We got back to the room and they decided he needed to be in this like the box thing because he couldn't keep his temperature up for himself. And then they said the specialist pediatric doctor come over and she asked me if I'd been drinking and smoking when I when I was pregnant and I was just like, I just burst into tears. I was like, I wouldn't do that. To my child, like, and she goes, I'm sorry, we have to ask because he's so small. And I said, Well, I overheard the theater people say my placenta was gray and grainy. And she goes, Oh, that explains it then, but then didn't tell me what that meant. Like, no one was telling me what was going on. And then the next thing was, I didn't move all night, because basically, I think I was in shock. And I couldn't move. My body was just in that same position. I came back from theater, and they sat me up for something. And they discovered that the epidural thing was still in my bag. And I was like, seriously, what else could you guys tell like going to end? It was just one thing after another, and I was like, I have to get out of here. And in the end, he the babies did. We stayed there for like two weeks, and I ended up going home and just coming to visit him, like through the day and then go home at night because I just couldn't bear to be there. It was like, well, you must have hated going back in there. Like you just would want to take him out of there. It was the as quick as possible that you can get him home and get out of that place was horrible. And I felt and then I felt really guilty for leaving him there every night saying goodbye and then rushing home trying to get as much sleep as I could pumping in the middle of the night because they messaged me when he was when they were feeding him. So then I was like, right, I better pump now. It was just like, it was hell. But anyway, you had a you had another child to take care of as well. He was he was good though. Because he was he was seven. So he basically had to learn how to make his school lunch. He had to learn how to do so many things like that, like was like Sorry, Alex, we can't do this. You have to do it. Like grow up so quickly pull little bugger. But yeah, so anyway, I've just I've just had an awful horrendous I have like, I had similar things kind of happened in there. But yeah, some of the stuff that happened to you just and that that was it like that, what my OB said to me, and my first birth was, it was really, you were really unlucky, like everything that kept happening to you. And I was like, yeah, it just kept happening to me. And, and he said, like, if it could have gone, you know, if you got to one thing like say an induction, like, it could have gone good or bad, it went bad. Then you went to the next thing could have gone good or bad. It went bad. Like everything just failed the whole way through. And I was just, he was like, you're just really unlucky. And I was like, was like, my husband's really like, would this have happened if we were in, you know, with a different team or in a different environment? Or whatever, you know? Yeah. And you just don't know, I think just this stuff happens, you know, in life. And I think the best thing you can do is try to work through it. Like the more you talk about it and just really figure it out. Because I did that after mine. I was like, I literally called it a puzzle. Like I was trying to piece together what the heck had just happened to me and figure out everything that went on because I actually was in so much pain, I lost my vision. So I have like, yeah, so I just, I think like for months afterwards, I just told people in front of my husband that like, I got to a certain point. And then I just close my eyes and I just bared through it. And I just could hear everything but I couldn't see. And he was like, he ended up telling me like two months later, he's like, your eyes were open, like the whole time. And I was like, oh my god, like I've lost like my vision, like recollection of it, or my body must have just shut that part down or something just to try and survive the pain I was in. But yeah, I think the best thing you can do is just like, you gotta debrief and like talk through it and and then just try and grow from it and figure out like, how did ya how did it kind of make you stronger? Or what did you learn from that? You know, like for me, like I everything I've gone through with my kids. Before I was really probably I didn't trust my instincts too much. I didn't know what to do. I relied heavily on other people around me for advice, you know. And now I feel like I am my son's like my little son's, like best advocate. I know more about him than any doctor. I pretty much tell them what he needs. I don't do anything they advise me to do unless like I feel like it's necessary like so I feel like I'm really confident on now. To who I used to be because yeah, like in the beginning, you know, you got this newborn and you're like, oh, like when do I feed it? What do I do like a rocket? Do I pad it? Like how do I you know, this like what do I what do I give him like? So yeah, now I feel I feel more like I can I can listen to my my instincts more and trust them. So but yeah, my worth was um My waters partially broke in the night on like a Sunday. And then we called the hospital they said to come in. And the nurse that was on she ended up checking if they had broken and because I just had like wet shorts in bed, but then that was it. No nothing else. And I was like 41, and one or something like I was oh, whatever way overdue and I had a big baby like he ended up being was he was like, close to four kilos. That's about eight pounds, eight ounces. And I'm like five foot four, like, I'm not a big person. Anyway, and um, and when she went to check, she ended up scraping or cutting me and I had I had bleeding and I had this like, beautiful pregnancy before this. And then this was like, the start of the horror that I like went through was she had done that. And my husband is not good with blood and hospitals. And he was just like, why? Like was that meant to happen? Like, what's going on? Like, this is like, he was really concerned already. Yeah. And then they basically said, like, you have to go home. Nothing's happening. We I can't how are you? And she was like, I can't tell because now I've like those, those blood and I can't, I can't. And I was like, well, thanks for that. You've just started this off on a great note. Like, everything was fine. I was healthy and everything. And then. And then so we ended up going home. And then like, I think I came in the next day to see my obstetrician or something. And he sent me over to the hospital to get monitored. And I ended up just standing in the waiting room and like no one can help me no one was seeing me I was in pain. I had really bad back labor and my birth. And and then yeah, they couldn't even give me a hot water bottle because they're all used in the rooms and stuff. And I was just really uncomfortable. And I said, I called the the OB and said I don't want to be here anymore. Like can I just go home? This is I'm not getting any treatment here anything. And so he said, Yeah, you can go. And then they ended up calling me and saying oh, your GBS positive. So we like legally in New South Wales, we have to induce you within 24 hours of your water breaking and like, we think they've partially broken and you need to get in here in the next hour. And we need to induce you. And I was like, so now you want me they're like, send me away, like, twice now. So then I went in and then and then they induced me but mine took a long time. And my OB said it was like night, I think it was nine o'clock when they induced me. So he said same thing. Like I'll see you in the morning for a birth. But I said do I do What do I do? Like do I do an epidural? Like I really don't know what to do. And again, I was very much like looking for other people's advice, like not listening to my body or anything like that, and just going by the professionals and trusting that they have done this a million times. And so anyway, he said, Well, I would take an epidural and get some sleep because you're you're going to need some rest. So I took the epidural and then I think yeah, anyway, in the morning, I started like having contractions and start started going into labor and I think that was at like 6am and Oh, and in the night my epidural had worn off or something like that. And so I said to them, like that was so so painful like because it takes them a while to come in and top it off or whatever so I said can you just um when it when it started in the morning I was like can you just make sure like it doesn't go low again like that because that was I was in so much pain there and I'm like in the middle of the night. So they talked it up, like really high or something and then I went into it I was pushing and then he was stuck. He was in the wrong position. He was like, sideways kind of and anyway and then I ended up being in like I would push and then when I rest I just endure like back labor I turn to my side and just be like it it got to the point I just felt like someone had broken my back like it was I was in so much pain. And I couldn't and I just kept saying to them I need a top off of this epidural like I can feel like I'm in so much pain. And they were really perplexed by it and thought you know, you shouldn't be in any pain with the epidural and anyway and Then he got right to the end, like they could see his hair and everything. And then they said, he should be further along by now, you know, you've been pushing for a while, and he hasn't been able to get any further out. And so they said, they said, like, we're gonna do an emergency Caesar. I said, Yeah, it's fine. Just like get him out. I'm just in so much pain right now. And then they went into the operating room, and the OB said, I just want to try a vacuum because he's right there. And I think I could if I twist them a little bit, I think I could pull them out. And anyway, the midwife the head midwife was arguing, saying, Don't do that. Like, that's not going to work. And so anyway, he did it and pop like this. It came off and he got this huge hematoma on his head. No, yeah, poor little guy. And then. And then they said, We're going to do a Cesar and then same thing they went to do like test if I was numb, and I was like, I can feel everything. Like I can feel all of that. Yeah. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, I think your epidurals fallen out, like I think it failed. Oh, not explain why I was in so much pain. And then, um, and then they, they said, We're gonna have to give you a general we're gonna have to knock you out. So I said, Whatever, I don't care. Just knock me out. By this point. My husband was so traumatized and like, so concerned. And so they sent him out by himself, sat him in a room all by himself. And then they knocked me out and they pulled out my son, and he went limp in blue. And they had to resuscitate him and CPR and everything, because he had the trauma from the, from the vacuum. And then he had a bit of a general so he wasn't in a good way. So he was in the NICU for five, five days, I think, or maybe a week, we were in the hospital together. But luckily, I could stay on the ward because I was in the public. And I was a private patient. So I was paying. So yeah, they kept me they kept me on the ward and let me feed him and all that stuff in the hospital. But yeah, it was just awful was horrible. But that whole week in the hospital, I like just wanted to kind of, yeah, figure everything out and get out of there. And like, yeah, it's just not nice, ya know, Banner, kind of, and no one else, like around me had anything like that. So I was just like, Why me like, yeah, for a long time, I think we went through that, like, you know, the whole Why did this happen to us kind of thing. But then a year later, I think I kept going, I kept going. I kept going, like, when I went back to school, I kept coming on school break, and I was having like a real struggle. And I didn't know why I was kind of having these outbursts and lashes out to my husband when it was a time when I should be so relaxed and feel so good. And I was like, actually not coping in the in the break time when I was like, I want to do all this stuff, but I can't do anything. And I'm really struggling and and then I went and saw my GP and they ended up diagnosing me with PTSD, like a year later, when I finally could kind of deal with it. So, yeah, yeah, it's that PTSD. That's something they diagnosed me with too. And it's interesting that I don't think I realized at the time, how, but how bad had been for me like, I don't think I just thought I similar thing. I've been really unlucky stuff happens. No one else around me had the same thing. And it wasn't till I was, I think I was on Facebook or Instagram, Amanda and I were talking about birth trauma and like recognizing an actual, it's an actual thing. birth trauma is a thing and they were talking about there needs to be more said about it and more support. And I was like, I think that's me. I think they have been trained like it's just, there's no, there's no, I don't know, when you're in the hospital. It's basically once you've had that baby. All the support goes to the baby like everything's about a baby and it's like, hang on a sec. I've just literally had my guts ripped open. Yeah. With little very little preparation, and under really, you know, stressful circumstances. And then I'm expected to look after this child like it just seems there's no care for the mothers that have been there. Yeah, and yeah, it took me a long time to realize that I was one of those people and then done a lot of work with my therapy. His two sort of things. And yeah, it's well done. Yeah, that's so important. I think you've, you've got to go through it and everything or else. Yeah, you just kind of hold on to it. And then, you know, you don't you kind of fall apart later in life, so yeah, yeah. Oh, so healthy to keep all that in. And that's a really horrible thing to keep in, you know, that's huge. That's not just like, you know, something minor. That's happened that's really big. And I think, yeah, everyone just thinks going into having a baby is, you know, this natural thing that we are all made to be able to do and stuff and actually, you know, sometimes it's, it's major surgery in someone's life, like, yeah, that's not a normal thing. Yeah, cuz you don't sort of plan like, you know, you and I are having a C sections. It's like, you can't drive for a certain amount of time after Yeah, yeah. So you don't think that that's going to happen to you don't sort of plan beforehand, right? Who's going to take me around and whatever, because you just don't think that that's going to happen? That in itself is like really limiting? Because then you have to ask people are really vulnerable that I can't even go down the shops, I've got to ask someone to do it. For me, it took me a long time was learning how to ask for help. Because, you know, and I still work on that and stuff. But yeah, like that. That's a huge part of motherhood is you literally can't do it yourself. So you have to learn that skill of asking for help. And you've gone from being this independent adult who doesn't really require anybody else's help, you know, to suddenly you have to be really vulnerable. Put yourself out there and ask for it. Yeah, to like to be able to do what you do. Yeah, it that's a big one, I think for a lot of bumps. was for me, yeah, yeah. Yeah, me too. Oh, gosh. Oh, thanks for sharing for sharing that. Yeah, no problem. Your story. It's yeah. It's beneficial to talk about things. I think it's like, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And just, the more we kind of communicate and like put stuff out there, the more people become aware, you know, and, and it's not or, and people can relate and be like, Oh, I'm not like the odd one out, huh. Like what happened to you actually, is very similar to you know, a lot of it has similarities to what happened to me and I went into my birth being like, like, I pretty sure my husband and I toured the hospital and we went through the NICU. And we were like, I looked at him and I was like, we won't be in here. We were in there for a week. Like, we weren't definitely in there. So but yeah, and when we were in there, like we our son was nicknamed the basketball player because he was so huge. He was long and big. And there was all these preemie babies. And that's what you think when you think of the NICU is like, preemie babies and stuff in there, you know, but it can be all sorts of reasons why you end up in there. So yeah, that's really true, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I feel like you need to shake myself down. That's it exactly. Yeah, all sorts of things. So like, I've just recently done a yeah, I've done so much like different stuff and kind of trying to work on myself and self care to take care take care of ourselves. And yeah, I recently did like a retreat, a women's retreat down the south coast here. And yeah, we did all sorts of stuff like that, like after you kind of tell your story or whatever you do, like an experience, like a cacao ceremony, or like shamanic breathwork and stuff. And then afterwards, it's kind of like, okay, like, we've gone through all that, shake it all out of your out of your body. And it's like, all that stuff is like really important. It really helps. So just lighten the load, like every time you kind of talk about it, and that sort of thing. It just gets a little bit lighter. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Like I mean, I used to be, you know, talking about all this stuff and be in tears talking about it, like I could barely even talk about it, right? It's so painful and you feel such a victim, whereas now I'm like, this is something that's happened, but I've worked through it, I've moved through it, and this is where I'm at now and like I would never be where I am if I hadn't gone through all that, like, you know, trying to see it as like, somewhat of a blessing that it's like improved your life, you know, instead of Yeah, this horrible thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it trying to see the positives and, and learn, I guess, what your lesson was, like what you had to what you had to learn through experience. And that's like, you know, it's like, COVID we've all gone through that. And, like, what, you know, there's probably some people who are still in, uh, in kind of like a victim state saying, you know, that was a horrible time in my life. And like, always, you know, that's really affected me or there's people who are like, I learned so much from that experience. Like, I now know what's really important to me, like, I know what I want to do actually changed my whole career. Like I did this. I did that, like, going through it, you know, and, and it's not just COVID that happened, like people had lots of horrible things happen because of COVID in there, you know, but they've become more resilient from it. So I think that's really important. Really important to do. Yeah, that's, that's a tree. Have you got anything coming up that you want to share? You've talked about your, yeah, for boats. By the time this episode comes out, that would have happened. But I'm definitely going to share that whatever I got coming up soon. I'll be having like it for people who are local, I'll be having. I want to try and make the monthly, but I've just collaborated with a gin bar in town to hold my art workshops at called juniper. So I'm going to be Yeah, I'll have an art workshop there next month in April. I've got my online community. This is kind of like my goal for this year, that I'm doing my art workshops to help moms get out of out of the home and women in general. And then yeah, the online community to connect and have that support and then the coaching. So my coaching is it's like ongoing, anybody can can sign up, but it's for a six month period. So anything less than that, just, you know, that's not enough time to sort of make some change and see some real results. So yeah, I commit to one hour every week for six months. And art wise. I've got I've applied for an exhibition actually in New York with my recent paintings. So it's an artist's mother exhibition. But yeah, I really keep my eye out for those sorts of artists mother kind of opportunities flying around, there's, there's a couple coming up. So I might apply for a couple others. But there's also my son's chromosome disorder. There is an an art competition for like rare disease art. So I think I really want to make something for that this year. That's in the middle of the year. I think it's like August or something, or maybe, might actually July. Um, but yeah, I'm hoping that's going to be an opportunity for me to sort of delve into that side of expression and trying to represent visually like my experience of, you know, having a son with a rare disease and raising a child with disabilities. Yeah, and I don't know what I'm going to create, but we'll see how that goes. But I do really want to do that. Because yeah, it's something really personal to me, huh? Yeah, not good on Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much for coming on, Andrew. It's just been a lovely chat today. And thank you for sharing so honestly, yeah. Cool. Thank you for having me and chatting with me, with all your honesty as well. Wonderful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast already. In sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Onnie Michalsky US councellor and podcaster S3 Ep83 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts On the show today I welcome Onnie Michalsky, a podcaster, coach and licenced counsellor from Montana USA and mom of 6 children aged from 23 to 8 years old. Onnie began as a counselor in the mental health field. When she decided in 2019 to start a business it was inspired by her own challenges. Things like, the house would fall apart if she stepped away that she had to control everything, and that nobody could do the job as well as here. She thought that being a good mum meant everyone else's needs were taken care of often at the expense of their own. Her online business Moms Without Capes brings plenty of her own strategies and experiences with "Supermon syndrome", or "the perfect mother myth" and her progress with overcoming it. To let go of the negative self talk the perfectionism the people pleasing and the unrealistic expectations, discovering along the way who you are, and learning to truly love yourself and your life and to finally hang up that Supermon cape. Onnie helps overscheduled stressed out mums to slow down recognize their worth and find their way back to themselves. Sounds pretty good to me. Onnie Mom's Without Capes website / instagram / facebook group Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... elcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their works been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes, along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to another episode. I say it every week. But it really is a pleasure to have you and to welcome me into this world of encouragement and support for fellow creative mums. Today, I just want to give a quick mention to the email that I've been sending out every week. I'm really conscious of the fact that whatever we put online, we don't really own. And it could disappear at any time. And Instagram is the main way that I communicate with you all. So if you'd love to keep up to date with what's going on, in the event that you know, someone like Elon Musk takes over Instagram and recs that as well, or the simple thing like I get hacked and I lose all my data and have to start again, please go to my web page, Alison newman.net/podcast. And sign up to the weekly newsletter, where I give a little bit of a more detail about who's on each week and a heads up about who's coming in the following week. And I also have a few little different bits and bobs on there that I don't share on the Instagram page. If that's not for you, no worries. Let's keep chatting on Instagram where I'm most active. And you can find that link in the show notes or just search for the art of being a mum on Instagram. Come say hi. On the show today. I welcome ani Michelle ski ani is a podcaster, a coach, a licensed counselor from Montana in the US and she's a mom of six children aged from 23 to eight years old. Five girls and one boy only began as a counselor in the mental health field. When she decided in 2019 to start a business it was inspired by her own challenges. Things like the house would fall apart if she stepped away that she had to control everything, and that nobody could do the job as well as her. She thought that being a good mum meant everyone else's needs were taken care of often at the expense of their own. Her online business moms without capes brings plenty of their own strategies and experiences with Superman syndrome with a perfect mother myth and her progress with overcoming it. To let go of the negative self talk. The perfectionism the people pleasing and unrealistic expectations, discovering along the way who you are, and learning to truly love yourself and your life and to finally hang up that Superman cape. In her business mums without capes on he helps overscheduled stressed out mums to slow down, recognize their worth and find their way back to themselves. Sounds pretty good to me. I hope you enjoy today's chat with Arne. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast Ani. It's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you today. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Ellison. Oh, that's awesome. I'm really pleased. Yeah. Tell me whereabouts you are in America. In Montana, which do you know what that is? Because I didn't know where it was. It like not fully south but in the middle somewhere. No, it's not in the north like it kind of is right Canada is right above us. Okay. Where the third state from the west. Yeah, right. I'm from the East Coast though. So when I met my husband, I had no idea where Montana was. I'm learning so much about about geography, like American geography. It's really quite interesting. So what's the weather like man at the moment? Today was actually in the 50s 50 degrees Fahrenheit Yeah, People are wearing just like jeans and sweatshirts, that kind of weather. But usually, it is, you know, two weeks ago we had to, like below zero temperatures, and it was absolutely frigid out. Usually we have ice packed roads through the winter. Right now we're just experiencing a little bit of a rarity these days. Yeah, so that's 10 degrees for us, which is cold. Like that's cold for us here. For me here. That's a cold winter's day. We don't get that very often. I still wear my coat even though I like the true Montanans like jeans and a sweatshirt, but I'm still bundled up with me, wherever he from originally. So from the I'm from outside of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Yeah, right. It's the same except our winters aren't as long or as cold. I don't think so. We still get snow and stuff. But yes, longer summers there. Yeah. So when, when I saw on the news a few weeks ago, you guys had really, really like ridiculously cold. Temperatures. Did you guys like lose power and all that sort of stuff and have storms or anything? No, I don't think we lost power. It was just so frigid. Like we didn't even want to go outside. I pretty much like hibernate from October through. It takes a lot to get me out of the house. And I had to invest in a good pair of snow boots and snow pants and everything when I got here, because for the first few years I like did not go out of the house for real. Yeah, it's cold. Yeah, well, I'll tell you here today, it's all worked out before it's about 71 in Fahrenheit, and beautiful blue skies. Some shining. It's just it's a really nice day apart from it's a little windy. That's the only thing. But the other day it was have to convert it. Hang on. It was 36 centigrade, or Celsius here. So what's that in? You? Know? No, not here where I'm from. We don't get anywhere near as cold. Yeah, I wouldn't like that either. 9896 96 Fahrenheit. It was here just a couple of days ago. So it really fluctuates. Yeah, we'll have like days, a couple of days really hot. And then we'll go back to sort of meet whatever. 70s No talking at all. No wonder you guys are all sick all over there. Oh, I honestly, I swear it has something to do with it. Yeah. And you get you just get used to something and then it changes on you. And that messes with you. With everything in your body and name. But anyway, enough about that. I actually find it really interesting. When I talk to people I want to know what what the weather's like. It's just something that I find really interesting. I don't know. Funny, cuz like talking about the weather is like consider like that small talk. I know what I know. Because it's when I was a kid, I had a lot of pen pals from around the world. And I just loved knowing what what the weather was because like, it's so different. Like, obviously, we're just talking about you know, I don't get snow. You guys get snow. I find that it's a whole different world. And I just find that really interesting and exciting. Have you ever seen snow like have you ever bit experience? Yeah, we did go once but we didn't. We didn't ski like we just went to literally say the snow. And it was different to what I thought like it was really wet. Like I thought it would be I don't know what salary but like, yeah, like, Yeah, I like sat down and just got saturated. Because we weren't planning. Yeah, we just had normal clothes on. We just went for a drive one day when we're in Melbourne. Yeah, but I'd like I'd love to go skiing. I think it would be really fun. I don't think I'd be very good at it. But I'd like to try. I went in high school for my first time we tried to take the kids every year. A few years ago, my husband and I decided to try snowboarding. Yeah. Well when I went in high school, it wasn't until the very last day that I actually got the hang of it. And then it was years and years afterwards until I got to go try again. And I am not an avid skier at all but a few years ago we tried snowboarding and that I was even worse. My calves were killing I really was like the most awkward thing was getting up on the snowboard. Yeah, it was just awkward my whole butts up and I wouldn't be a cool snowboarder and it wasn't happening. Yeah, I love watching them on the Olympics and stuff how they just like raw down here and then they just stop like they turn themselves in. They just stop so effortlessly. That would not be me. Oh god, that's classy you're cold mums without cakes, which I think is fantastic. Can you share with us what the premise and the sort of ideas behind that? Sure. So I created a whole business moms without capes. And what it is, is I help super moms who moms who think they have to be doing everything and taking care of everything. And with the huge like mental load and all of thinking they have to do all the things, and I help them create margin in their day for themselves. I helped them put themselves on their, on their to do list and give themselves permission to focus on themselves. So that's, that's really my huge mission is to help moms recognize their own worth, and give themselves what they need. That is that is so important. Like that is the biggest thing that we talked about on this show, it always comes up is that people mums need time to still be the person they were before they had kids, you know, that side of you just doesn't disappear and fly off into the distance. It's like it's particularly go there. Yeah. Creative and I've always had a passion for making and creating and doing trying to find that space within the you know, the role of mothering can be tremendously difficult. But it's so important to do it because, you know, just helps you be yourself I suppose. It's It's so true, like moms tend to lose themselves when they're sacrificing their, their identity. For the for being a mom, right? It's almost happens naturally you had to fight against it. But I helped moms like recognize themselves in the mirror. Because you get to a point where you're like, I don't even know who I am anymore. I don't know what it is that I like, because for so long, you're just doing everything for your family. And you turn around one day and you don't even recognize yourself who you are what what your purpose is beyond being a mom? How did this come about for you? Is this from like personal experience or anything like that? Yes, absolutely. So bite fi trade, I guess or I am a licensed counselor here in Montana as well. And so in the mental health field, and when I decided in 2019 All right, I'm gonna start a business right like that was like, as if I was just gonna know exactly what to do. I started learning more about you know, coaching and how to create a business and everything's like, everyone's like you have to niche down. And, you know, after I learned what that word actually meant, I had niched down to weight loss was what it was, because as part of my story, which we'll get into in a second, I had lost weight. And so I was like, Alright, I'm like, I'll do weight loss, right? So I started with that. And then I started gaining weight and I was like, this is not working. Well, I can't even get like a handle on like my own weight. I felt like it was worse than imposter syndrome. So I decided to do some more exploring and some more just you know, journaling, some talking to other moms and like just realized like trying to see like, what can I bring to the table? What can I create a business about? And who do I want to serve? So I knew right away even with weight loss, like I gravitate towards the helping moms. So I am a mom of six we have six kids. So I create a Mazda that capes as a way to bring my own experience because back in 2011 when I had lost when I started my like weight loss journey or started that I struggled with a lot of perfectionism and people pleasing and all the things that kept me from even taking a Zumba class. That was where it started. I wanted to take a Zumba class. and I couldn't figure out how to get the stars to line up for me to walk out the door. Because everything I did, I was homeschooling, I had to, you know, I was the primary, making sure the meals were all done making sure the house was all clean, like I had so many things on, like so many plates, I was spinning. In addition to like, I volunteered around the community and stuff that I couldn't figure out what it was that I needed to. So that really started my journey of like self development, and learning to get past those excuses that I was telling myself the lies that I was telling myself, you know, that I, you know, everything that I had to control everything that the house was going to fall apart if I stepped away, that nobody could do the job as good as me, right? All these things, these expectations that we hold. And I really had to do a lot of deep diving into all of that. And so yes, moms without capes, brings plenty of my own struggles and experience with the supermom syndrome. And much like my progress of overcoming it. Actually, I say overcoming it, but I still struggle. I just wrote an email to my my mom's and I was like, yesterday morning was like one of those moments where I was like, Oh my gosh, like, everything was everyone needed me within a 10 minute span. And I was just like, I can't do this. I can't do this. Sorry. So like, I have to continually keep myself in check. But where before I would just continually to like give give give. I've gotten to this point where I'm like, Okay, what do I need, and I give myself that. So like, in that case, yesterday morning, I was like, Okay, I need to walk out I need to breathe, I need to communicate to my family, like the effect that this is having on me like feeling like claustrophobic almost like, you know, you know, and I was able to rebound a lot faster than I would have 10 years ago when I was really like just thinking that, you know, to be a good mom, I had to make sure everybody else was taken care of. So I've done a lot of progress that way. But at the same time, I know that I it's not it comes back, the overwhelm comes back at times, you know, it's just the seasons, it's the seasons of like, you know, and the thing is our oldest is 23. And then we've got a 19 year old to 16 year olds, a 12 year old who's about to be 13 and eight year old. So by the time I get to the year, I'm like, I'm just tired. Yeah, you know, and like, I'm a completely different parent than I was 12 like 23 years ago, right? Like our older kids, like, never video games. Like I was always like, no, like that would make me a bad mom. And like, you know, try and like that the rains I was like home holding thinking that the world was going to collapse. Like I was able to definitely loosen up and when I say let Fun Mom sure face, you know, like, back and relax and like, enjoy company like enjoy like the company of my family and do things that before? No, because I always had to be the Enforcer. I always had to be the one that it was a lot of communication with a lot of personal work. Yeah, good on you. That's, that's so inspiring that you've been able to do that. Now Good on you. Because I think you took equal like the Superman syndrome by this perfect mother myth that the good mum, in our mind, I think we've got all these stories we tell ourselves of what this person looks like. And there's a fantastic sociologist over here name's Dr. Sophie Brock. And she talks a lot about this and that person, they don't actually exist. Like, if you write down all the things that you think is makes the perfect mother, that person does not live on this earth, like they do not exist. But we keep beating ourselves double standard. Yes. And I think a lot of it, like, you know, the comparison that we we look at other people, we think, Oh, they they're doing that on my I should be doing that. Oh, you know, you're talking about the screen time or my kids on screen time. This long? Oh, maybe I shouldn't do it. A lot of it's, you know, brought on by this judgment of others or social media, you know, shows us these ideals that were supposed to be Yeah, literally a highlight reel of 10 seconds of someone's life. And, and we compare ourselves to that. So being really conscious of what we want to do as our own self, you know, not doing what the neighbors doing or what the person on social media is doing. It's it's really hard to do. But I think I don't want to say that's what it boils down to because it's so much bigger than that. But you know what I mean having the faith in yourself to say right, this is what I want to do for my family. These are the rules in our house regarding whatever Uh, you know, the expectations we have or the morals that we have or whatever, and trying to do it without looking. So that goes down to you know, you have to know yourself to trust yourself. Yeah, with a point where you, you don't know yourself, yeah, it's really hard to trust yourself and then you get caught in that compare game. It reinforces that feeling or that belief of being inadequate, or like never measuring up, right. And then we have these huge to do lists that also create this feeling of like, I'm never good enough, or I'm never enough. And so by removing that, and recognizing, like collecting the evidence that says otherwise, because there's plenty of evidence that says that you are a good mom, right? Like you said, like looking at that definition. And you're like, No, like, why am I holding myself to this double standard, but you've got to be aware that you're doing that, because so many times we do it in our mind. And we can we compare ourselves to other people, we compare ourselves to this definition. And it's not getting us anywhere, except feeling worse about ourselves. It keeps us in this like, perpetuating cycle, where it's awareness is one of the very first step of realizing like, I don't have to be this doesn't have to be the norm. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, yeah, can be really challenging to do. It's sort of I can't think, well, it's called there's a Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And it's like, you get to the top menu, like self actualized or something. And it's like, how do you know if you are that? You know what I mean? It's sort of that thing of looking at yourself. From outside in? And I don't know, it's a weird, I can't describe what I'm trying to say. But anyway, right. Right. But like, that's self awareness, PS. Yeah, like, but first of all, like, give yourself that permission. Like, it's okay for me to spend some time on myself and in reflection, and asking myself what I need. Because, you know, I'm working with a lot of people pleasers that have a hard time setting boundaries. Yeah, I have a hard time like, you know, stepping away from that people pleasing, saying no, because, you know, you're saying no to other people, you're saying yes to yourself. And so you've got to, you've got to do the work, you've got to be aware of what what can change and have that belief that things can actually change? Absolutely. There's a quote that I read on your website, about putting out putting our needs first without feeling guilty. How is that possible? is a massive topic that I love talking about. I find it incredibly fascinating. That's so funny, when you just pull that coin like, oh, gosh, what's she gonna say? Everybody says, everybody, when they hear me start going, they think, Oh, what is it? Everyone's caught off guard one time when I saw them. Say, like, they wanted me to name the like, the seven things that like I just done like a Facebook live about. And I'm like, I just did it the week before. And I was like, ah, like, I don't have my notes for that. And then she's like, well, let me remind you to remember and reason about guilt. This was, this was something I really struggled with. And that is something that I also like, I see the progress that I have made, because I feel way less guilty. And let me tell you a story about when I first moved to Montana and my mother, like my my own mom rarely took her kids and we moved here when I was pregnant with number five. So when we were there, like we had four kids and my mom would like rarely take more than one at a time. So when we moved here, my mother in law called me up and she's like, I want to take the kids for the weekend. And my defenses went up now my mother in law is a great mother. Like she you know, she raised my husband like no problems whatever like I I went into a panic like because I had all these things like nobody can do the job as good as me and my a good mom because I'm like letting my kids go like leave me like that was like a touch. Separation anxiety on my part, but like, I all of these things were coming through my mind to the point that I got off the phone and like, cry to my husband. Like she can't take them like that. You know, we've got, I just had all these things, right. And so I, then I was crying to my best friend who lived in Pennsylvania. And she was like, Are you crazy? Like, let's talk. She's like, What is the worst that's gonna happen? Like you, you are going to enjoy this weekend like, let her take the kids, right. So she talked some sense into me, thank goodness because they went. And the overwhelming feeling that I had felt at that point was guilt. I felt like this tremendous guilt like of letting my kids like go. And they went, and it ended up being a really good week. Came back, we survived, everything was good, right. And it was doing those kinds of things like over and over. And even in small spurts. Like I talked about the Zumba class. Like, I felt like, I felt like one night the stars did line up, everything was good. There's meal in the slow cooker. The house was clean. The laundry was folded. It was a very rare moment. And I went to the class. And it was like I came back and like it was kind of like testing those expectations that I had or like that definition of good mom, and then taking the time to reflect on it and be like, holy smokes, I got away with that, right. Yeah, I started like collecting the like, things that like, where those expectations that I was holding weren't holding true. And it was at that thing that my, my belief started shifting. And when my belief started shifting, my thoughts shifted as a result. And then the guilt became less and less. And I also learned to ask for help. That was something that I was not able to do for a long time. And it's not that I'm perfect, and I still struggle at it. But I'm so much more able to ask for help. At this point. I've learned how to ask for help. And I gave myself permission to ask for help realizing that I can't do it all. And if I want the family that I want to, like have with the values in place, I want my daughter we have five daughters and one son so I'm like I want my daughters to learn that it's okay to ask for help. And I want my son to realize like that his wife is going to need help. Like we're always talking about like, you know, the other day we were watching a show my husband my son's like, it was about purpose. Did you ever hear the thing fairplay? Yes. Yes. We were just talking about this on an episode I recorded a couple of days. Oh, yeah. I'm actually thinking of becoming a facilitator for that. I was like, this is a game changer, right? About a practical tool to communicate the division of labor in the household. So anyway, so we were watching the documentary, I'd read the book. And so I knew what it was about. My son came in my 16 year old son, and he's like, we got this whole conversation about purpose. And it brings us back because he was like, Well, don't we give you a purpose? Try to lay the guilt on. And I'm like, Well, you do. But I made for more like I'm more than just a mom. And so yeah, like, being able to ask for help and have like that collaboration within the household allows you to live your purpose, more freely and more guilt free, like feeling like that. It's okay. It's okay to do that. It's okay to give yourself time and it's okay to give yourself space and it's okay to I know, you, uh, you know, your singing and your art and like all like, it's okay to discover yourself and to lean into your passions. And for so many moms. I've had moms cry to me. I don't even know what it is that I like to do. And I'm like, that's, that's okay, like, it's normal. It's sad as that is. There's so many other moms that are in the same boat. Yeah, like, Yeah, but let's, let's get out of there. Because you are men for so much more. Your family deserves a mom who leans into her passions. You're doing your family a disservice when you're putting yourself on the back burner or you're putting yourself not not focusing on what it is that you enjoy. So, particularly moms that have had that, you know, mums that I speak to a lot, obviously creative and have had that outlet, usually before they have their child. And I find that myself included in this if we don't do that creative outlet. We're just not the people we want to be you know, and then even not just for ourselves, but then you actually have to go out of your studio or wherever you are, and then parent and be a partner as well. It's like if you don't have that outlet for us. Do you just, you know your feet all over the place. So it's so important. I just, I'm taking piano lessons right now. And I love it. I love just sitting there like, I'm not really that good at I just started a few months ago, so but I do know a few songs and it's so relaxing. I took out my sketchbook and I was like, I need to start sketching like this was like two years ago. And my kids are like, you know how to draw. So just like, create, like finding those creative pursuits, and even like business, like I just remember, like, just even making posts and like graphics. Oh, Canva Oh, I love it. No die on that. Like, my rabbit hole, you know, like, it's like, yeah, just finding those ways to be able to express yourself and just create and get in the flow are so important, especially for moms. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. How'd you find your sort of adjustment to being a mum? Did you sort of have any sort of like identity shift like not identity crisis? But you know what I mean, like this going from? From from Nanta. Mum? Yeah. So Oh, my gosh, a huge identity. And I would I think crisis was the right word. Yeah. It really was, like, really tight. You know, none of our kids were planned there, you know, 23 years ago. So totally different place. Like I was 22 when I had gotten pregnant, you know, and it was just like, it was a very scary time. I wasn't, we weren't married, I'm actually so with him. 23 years later, I ended up falling in love with him. And all of that, kind of did it backwards. But it all worked out. He's like my best friend everything. And we had five more. And I feel like every single time I was like, my editor really shifted. I was because I was in different parts. I was different places in my life. None of them were planned. Well, number two, we were like, well, maybe we'll have another one. And then I thought two or three years later, I'm like, Well, maybe not. We'll focus on my career. Because at that point I had was, had got my Master's in Counseling, and was working as an as an intern at a domestic violence shelter. And I loved it. Like I loved the work I was doing. And I was like, maybe I'll be one of those career moms, you know, it's trying to find out what kind of mom am I going to be? And then, you know, of course, how it happens, I got pregnant. So like, I kind of made my decision, I still, you know, is working and everything. And then I had not worked then we had twins, four years later, twins. And that was a huge adjustment, you know, and I feel like, every time I became and then you know, and then we moved to Montana, every time we became got the news, you know, like I was I was gonna be I was pregnant. It was, you know, a huge adjustment for our family and for who I was. And I mean, even that, even our last one, like, each time, you know, I had to figure out like, how am I going to do this? And what do I what do I see is like, important and what do I want to what do I want for our family? And then, you know, in 2011 That was when right after I had number five and so when I entered entered like pregnancy with number six, I had already discovered like the world like self care. And so I had really put that emphasis on making sure it's probably like my healthiest pregnancy. Yeah, cuz I continue to like, make sure that I was taking care of myself throughout it. Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's a really good point. Actually. It's like, I can actually relate to that. After you've said it. I never thought of it. But yeah, I've got seven years between my two. And I was completely different points in my life, you know, and had different careers and different levels of experience. So yeah, that's it like every time you have another child, you basically find yourself again at a different place, wherever you are at that time. I was like, you have the experience, though, like you're able to, like, kind of adjust a little bit differently than you did before. Because you've got that past experience. Like yeah, like I knew, like, this doesn't have to do with identity. But I knew by like, when I had the twins, like, there's no point of going to the hospital until I'm ready to like, drop, and I went and 15 minutes later I delivered. I knew, you know, by the time I had them, I was like, Okay, we have to go get something to eat, because I know I'm gonna have ice chips. You know, like, and, like, just this is not related to anything at all. I'm just interested to know, each time you have your baby. Does your labor get shorter? Each time you go? Yeah, yeah, I was. The last one was very strange, because that was the only one I got induced, because we lived an hour and a half away. And from the hospital, and I was so like, I think the doctor was afraid to that I was gonna go because we couldn't really judge when. And so it was really strange to just be like, All right, family, I'm going to have a baby. I'm gonna have a kid like, and to like know that at like six o'clock, I was going into the induced, like, that was the street and we hadn't found out the other ones, we found out the gender. And the last time we were like, well, we were kind of prepared for both at that point, a boy could work or pink and we don't have the swings. And like all the baby equipment that we had in our first few were like, we basically knew that, you know, when you have a baby, you don't need all that equipment. As a new mom, like a new fresh mom like you. You think you need all this stuff. And then by the time six, we're like, well, we can get by with like, you could probably run I don't know, you might have already been write a really interesting article about the stuff that you actually do not need, like that much experience. It's like, yeah, done a really good point. Like we had already tried the Diaper Genie like, they're all the gadgets and stuff. At one point. The thing is with having the kids like so far apart, like having the kids 23 to eight, like, at this point, like our eight year old gets robbed of like a lot of like, say for like the Easy Bake Oven. Like I'm like, I refuse to buy that. And I'm sorry, like, you won't have that experience, because I know it's junk. We'll just take a real cake and put it in the regular. It's hard to like Christmas shop for the younger ones. Because I'm like, at one point, we've had that and I'm like, and it's just not worth it funny. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, you're like, Yeah, this this thing won't last long. You know? We're not getting these. Oh, that's really funny. So growing up, what were you from a big family? You so um, so my family I had we had three kids? Yeah, I was the oldest, I was the oldest. My My parents had me when they were 20. So, you know, kind of grew up with, like, when I look back, it's like last night we were looking through pictures, old pictures. And such babies. Like when I looked back at like murmurs or 20s. Like, oh my gosh, you're so young. I'm saying my husband pictures, like, Look at this. But anyway, so my parents were 20. And then I was the oldest. And then I have a brother who is 13 years, 13 months younger than me. And he is mentally handicapped. So he grew up, like we grew up, where they say Irish twins or whatever. Yeah. And then six years younger, my other brother came along. And then I thought our family was done. And, you know, I grew up, up until I was 16. When my parents both, both same parents decided to Well, they didn't decide they had, you know, an oops. It wasn't good. It was plastic. It was almost like, but it's so funny because when I was growing up, like all I wanted was a little sister, like I used to. With my dolls like that I had there was this doll called kids. It was like my buddy. And then it was I think it was like kid sister or something. And like, I cherish like my Cabbage Patch Kids. I always pretend like we're my sister. Like I always wanted a little sister. And then when I was 16 my parents found out that they're pregnant and ended up being a girl. I remember it was so embarrassing. I remember going into the bank and the lady at the bank said I bet you didn't even know your parents did it anymore. Yeah. I just 16 years old Allison. I was like worried. I still remember. Like, you don't want to think about that at 16 I remember just being so excited though, to finally had that little sister and it was a cool thing because my my mom, one of my parents, let me come into the delivery room. Oh, wait. So I got to see the birth of her and I, you know, I wrote like, a whole memory book, like every day of her life, her first year, like, I just like, loved it. But then it was hard because I went off to college. Yeah. And I wasn't able, like I wrote her like letters, like when she learned how to go potty, or like, in kindergarten, like I was able, like, it was like, from a distance and I wasn't able to enjoy like a baby sister. In the everyday thing, like I was I was like, dying. Like, I wish that happened sooner. But it didn't happen now. She's 30 now. So she, yeah, and you know, we're not we're not that close. We're not as close as we want. Like, as I would like to be. We also live a country like a whole country across. They still live in the East Coast. here next week, I still go back and visit. But um, yeah, having that relationship, like so far apart. So I see that with my own kids. Yeah, like the oldest ones. And the youngest ones, like I know that they're, you know, even though like now, like our oldest will come to the little ones like, little like, any kind of school functions, like a Christmas concert and stuff. I'm like, I know that having that so far apart. That age difference is going to matter. But it's going to make a difference. But yeah, I mean, I can see with my own kids like the ties, the twins are like incredibly close. Yeah. And then like the different sibling combinations that exists. And beat Yeah, the dynamics between them. And yeah, yeah, I we've just the seven years between my two I just think I mean, I think I was mad for going back again. But, you know, that's the way it worked to circumstances. And that's how it happened. But yeah, I think as they get older, they'll get closer, because at the moment, I think they just drive each other crazy. You know, Alex is, like the every day like just tolerating. Yeah. And they seem to stare each other up quite a bit. which buttons to push each other? For sure. Yeah. But I think yes, they get older. I think it'd be lovely for them to have have that. Because yeah, at one point, we thought we just have we just have one. And that'd be the end. And then my dad said to me once, do you realize that, Alex, because that's my oldest that he won't have aunties and uncles or something is sort of there was some relationship that he pointed out that he wouldn't get because he was an only child. And I sort of went, Oh, shit, like, that's, I'm like the cousins. And it was like, I'm denying my child, this part of life, or relationships with people because of my decision. And it didn't make me all of a sudden, go. Yeah, but it just made me realize how responsible I was for parts of his life that I might never even experience or may never see. And I thought, Damn, you dad put me through. It is lost. And also like, I think as we get older, as parents like, for them to have to organize, you know, like health care as we age or put us into a home or whatever, you know, it'd be nice for them to have each other to make decisions and talk to about stuff. And they just need that now with my mom and like, she's one of five. So she grew up in a pretty big family and like now with grandma, who's 93, like her having like those other siblings to bounce things off and like to kind of share that care across siblings. So you're kind of like providing for your own security. We got half a dozen kids. Maybe hopefully one or two of them will care. Yeah, by planning craft. Like, parenting like my mom. My mom was a stay at home mom for the whole time I was growing up up until I actually had our first my first kid when we had areolas that my mom decided to go back to work. And then so she's been like a working for so for my sister. She's been a working mom like her home. So we even have that different. That different dynamic right there. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Obviously, it's important for you to do what you do, as your own person as Ani, without being a mum is important that you're we've talked to before about, about role modeling to your children, but it is important, particularly for you girls that they say that, that you're doing your thing that mom does this and has nothing to do with that at all. I think, in fact, when I, when I talked to other moms about self care, I do a self care challenge in my Facebook group. And that's one of the big things is like you are an example to your children. Like, like I mentioned before, you're an example to your, to your daughters, how like that they don't have to lose themselves, they don't have to lose their identity when they become a mom, or when they get married. Like they can be their own person and develop them. Like they're, they can continue to grow. Even, it's even more important after they change their role, or add a role to their life. And then for their for the sons as well. Like showing them like that, you know, that their mom doesn't have to, or his wife doesn't have to give up her, give up herself. For him. Like, it just kind of it provides that example or that model being a role model. So when I do practice, I'm like my kids know self care, like because they all it's all they do is hear my eight year old actually for Christmas, she she's not getting an easy Baker. She didn't get an easy bake oven. But she did get a self care journal. We were like, you know, like, Okay, well, what's your plan? Like, you know, do you when are you going to do meditation, like it lays its adult journal. But like, she sits there, like we were trying to fill out the spots that she was able to plan, like how she was going to take care of herself that day. I think that's so important. Like for kids to understand that that's a thing, right? From a very early age. And like it's it actually exists and it's important to do. Yeah. eight year old takes it to extreme though, that right now, right now she's in the middle person, not at this moment. But this week, she's been personally training my husband and she's like, become this like personal trainer. And I walked out the other day. They're both sitting on the carpet, like in the rug in the living room in like, in lotus position, meditating. And like, she's leading him in like so guided. Oh, yeah. That's so funny. Like, it's good on it and good on your husband for accepting that too. Because I think can be hard sometimes for for men to slow down and take meditation seriously. Just like, are you gonna do my class? Mom? Are you gonna say that she started saying that was gonna be $1. And I was like, No, I'm not taking your class. She's like, why not like because you're bossy I hear you just love that. She's gone places that anyone could. So tell us, if anyone that's listening is got really excited about this. And they want to catch up with you online and find you and get involved in what what you're doing? How can everyone find you? So moms without capes, I've got a podcast and I talk all about different mental health things. A lot of you know, when I mentioned the perfectionism that people pleasing all the things that keep us from being able to hang up or keep. And then I also am on Facebook, I'm on Instagram too. But Facebook's my main platform. And that's where I have a fun Facebook community that I would love to invite your listeners to join me in. We do. I have a book club that goes on there. And you know, I tried to do some fun events. And one of those is included, like a self care challenge that I do where I give prizes, and I help you to find what self care is for you and help you make time for yourself. Yeah. Oh, that's all happens on Facebook. Yep. All right, well, I'll put all the links in the show notes so people can find you and can click away. Is there anything else you want to mention? That I think was on your mind that you want to? I just want to you know, I feel like my main mission is to help moms recognize their own words. And it starts by just asking yourself, what do I need? And so making sure that you are asking yourself each and every day, setting yourself up living with intention and instead of Just like zooming through your day with making sure that you're checking all the tasks that you need, think you need to be doing. Take a step back and just ask yourself, what do I need to feel fulfilled? Or what do I need to feel like me? Not Not me feel like you. First off that, and then start taking steps to get back to who you are, because your family deserves you. To be you not to be some shadow of who you used to be. Yeah, that's a lovely note to end on. Thank you so much, Annie. I just love chatting with you today. I feel like I've got so cheeks are laughing I keep wiping tears out of my eyes. And laughter It's been lovely. All the best. I should ask you, if there's anything in the future that you want to mention, it's coming up or anything in particular, come join the group. Because our Facebook Our challenge is actually kicking off February 20. So I will be right in Provo mode when this episode drops. So definitely come just search moms with that case right there on Facebook, where you said you're gonna throw the link in the show notes. And then that way you can come join the challenge. Oh, Mom's got capes.com yet backslash challenge and just get registered, but y'all couldn't do it all happens in the group. Anyway. So beautiful. Thank you so much. It's wonderful. I'm gonna check it out, too. I think it's, it's really important to, even if you feel like you've got a handle on things, it's nice just to check in and just, you know, because like you said things ebb and flow and you have, you know, different times when things are going good. And then other times things might not. Everything's falling apart. Like, am I doing? I have no idea what the heck I'm doing. I've never been. I feel like that's the thing. Like we're all in this together. We're all just doing our best at the time. Like whatever the present time. We're all just doing what we can. And it's lovely to have that support and to feel like you know, you're not alone. You know, we've all got the same struggle as well. We're all thinking about how much time our kids had screen time. You know, we're all doing things. Lovely. Thank you, Ronnie. Thanks again on. It's been an absolute pleasure. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

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Sarah Renzi Sanders US mixed media visual artist S1 Ep24 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Renzi Sanders is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland a suburb of Washington D.C USA, and a mother of 3. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother as well as the plethora of roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health, using the mask as a repeated symbol to hide the true self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah’s own meditation practice and creative vision are intrinsically linked as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. We chat about how Sarah draws on this meditation practice to create her art challenging the patriarchy in art and life, being your true authentic self, judgement and generosity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression and autism** Connect with Sarah on her website and instagram Find Sarah"s new series here Find Sarah’s Mixed Media Madonna project here Find Sarah’s Kensington Artists profile here Podcast - instagram / website Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for joining me. My guest today is Sarah Renzi Sanders. Sarah is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, DC, United States, and she's a mom of three. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother, as well as the plethora of other roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health. Using the mask is a repeated symbol to hide the truth self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah's own meditation practice, and creative vision are intrinsically linked, as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. Today, we chat about how Sarah draws on that meditation practice, challenging the patriarchy in art and in life, being your true authentic self judgment and generosity. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression, and autism. Thank you so much for coming on today. Sarah, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I'm right in saying Happy Thanksgiving. Yes, yes. Last night, so I'm very glad that it's a feeling a bit full silver. I am but you know what, I had leftovers for breakfast and, and it was great. D tell me is it? I'm not totally familiar with thanksgiving. But is it almost bigger than Christmas? For you guys over there. It's like it's a really significant holiday or it's not bigger than Christmas. But it's kind of the kickoff to the Christmas season two. So one Thanksgiving is over. Then we're bombarded with, you know, the Christmas commercials and the Christmas songs and the radio and like it's time to buy stuff. It's like right off you guys. It's exciting. So So you're in a place called Kensington in Yes, Dairyland. Can you tell me a bit about I did a bit of googling. I was actually really interested in your weather. I have this thing what people's weather's like. So you're in? You're in winter over there now? Yes, yes. So cold, windy. Every once in a while we'll have a nice day. That get air will get up to like 60 Because it's fall. But for the most part, it's pretty cold and windy. Like 30 degrees ish is the average at this point. Yeah, I'm just gonna do a quick conversion and see what that is in Celsius. Yeah. Oh, that's alright. Hang on. I'm gonna look it up. We're about 10 miles outside Washington DC. Maybe a little less than that. Yes. Yeah. So is that like, minus one? So? I mean, 32. Freezing? Yeah. So it's not terrible. It's actually been a pretty mild fall so far. But yeah, it hurts your face. Well, where I live, we do not get anywhere near that. Like, I'm complaining when it's like 13 degrees, which what would that be for you? Hang on, let me put that in proper. What you can 13 Celsius is like 55. Right. So really, so that's cool. That's our code. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's so nice. You probably be appreciating that right now. That's a beautiful day here. So Is it snowing there? Do you get saved? No, it's not snowing. So, um, I mean, today I think they said it was gonna be a high of 45 which is not too bad. I can still walk the dogs and be okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that hang on. I've got to look that up. That's seven. Okay, so that's, that's okay. So seven. Yeah, yeah. So your style of art is to realism and symbolism. Am I right in saying that? Can you explain for people like me who aren't into like, understand, what does that mean? So surrealism is you are creating work that looks realistic, but it's often an unrealistic setting. So sometimes the juxtaposition of things that don't really make sense together. Surrealism is often described as dreamlike. It looks like maybe it's came from my imagination, which it did. But in most instances of my work, I'm using my own experiences. And I'm kind of putting it together together in a way that makes sense to tell a story. So it's not an exact memory. It's not like a snapshot of a moment in time. It's more of, you know, how I was feeling in the moment and exploring how I can express those feelings visually, and put symbols in there that have sort of a deeper meaning. And my work, really, it is autobiographical, but I, I want people to be able to look at it and relate to these emotions. Yeah, lately. Yeah. So that's something that started out as something that that triggered from your life, but the themes are sort of common that anybody could relate to that from their own experience in life, I suppose. Yes. Yes. So I address a lot of anxiety, depression, mental health issues. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's very common theme, isn't it? For people? Yeah. Yeah. That's very hot right now. Yeah, for sure. So the symbolism I'm interested in because one of my guests I had earlier on was an art historian. And she was talking about how she looks here. Her specialty was the long 18th century. And she was talking about how she looks at the art and, you know, tries to decipher I suppose, what was going on, and all that sort of thing. So I guess that's the symbolism sort of ties in people could look at that. And I guess it's subjective to like, people could take it. However, they needed to, I guess, couldn't they? It's not necessarily everybody. Yeah. And that's why I like talking about my art. But a lot of times, I like people to tell me about what they see in my art and how it makes them feel and how it relates to their story. Because I think that's the most interesting part. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. So what sort of mediums do you use in your art, so I'm mostly an acrylic painter right now. I have used oils in the past but I am working out of a very small office space in my home. So acrylic is just the easier medium to use. And I try to I try to sometimes put things materials in there that wouldn't be expected. For example, I will stitch with embroidery floss directly on the canvas. So you may not see it as well in pictures but if you were to see the work in person, you can see that you know, this eye is stitched on with thread or these flowers are are sewn onto the canvas. The piece behind me as a piece has some lace on it. I also do use textural elements such as cracks. I use this paste called crackle paste and it kind of you put it on and as it dries, it creates these kinds of cracks and it reminds me of, you know, dried Earth maybe like a desert. So yeah, yeah, but And now we'll use a little bit of wash for details which Um, I recently discovered is very, very fun to work with. So yeah, what is that code? Wash? It's, um, so it's I recently discovered it, it's an acrylic medium, but it's, it works almost like an oil or a watercolor, it's very easy to blend. They're little tiny tubes. So it is quite expensive. You're not gonna like paint a whole painting. But a lot of people use it for works on paper and for realistic things. So I'll use it often on the face, or on the small details of a painting. Yeah, and it's just kind of a slightly different. It doesn't dry as fast as acrylic. So you are able to blend it. So it's kind of like almost like, like how oil you can it doesn't dry very fast. So you can keep blending it to make it look more realistic. Yeah, yeah. So that things like delays, I guess is sort of, sort of reflective of like emotions. And I don't know, it's like you're creating all these different elements. Yes. Make sense? No, yeah, totally. And I just, I do I mean, each kid has has a lot of layers, because I feel like each, like each person, especially when I'm addressing women and mothers, it's like, we all have these, like, layers that we keep putting on ourselves to cover our real selves and to hide who we really are. Maybe not to hide it, but you know, it just we get lost in there. You know, you're somewhere underneath all those layers. Yeah, yeah. That's quite, quite good way of putting it. Is that that identity? Is that Yeah, it's a massive thing, isn't it? This the concept that you're, you're a woman. And then all of a sudden you have a child and your entire life has changed the way you think about yourself changes the way society views you is changes. And it's also almost you can sort of get lost in that, I think, is that is that? Absolutely. Yes. And I actually had my first child when I was 20. And I was still in college, university. And so my daughter right now is 15. In high school, and so I felt like really, I didn't even know who I was. I mean, we all struggle with Who am I but but you know, at 20 You have no idea. Yeah. So I really didn't and, and so that did become so much of who I was. And my entire life. So I never really lived as an independent adult. Without being a mother. So I was a mother like, bam, and then yeah, I'm a grew up. Yes, that's right. No, I mean, I wouldn't change it for a thing. I mean, that was the you know, biggest growing experience of my entire life. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How did you first getting to your, your painting and your artwork? Um, so I actually I always was the artist at school, I always was doing little caricatures and drawings of teachers and, and people in my class and and I kind of hated it. Actually, I didn't like being the artist I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be the athlete, or I wanted to be the singer. I didn't want to be the artist. I thought that was boring. So I kind of tried to like, downplay it and push it back. But when I got to high school, I had some really great art teachers. And I you know, all my lectures were art classes, gone to college actually got rejected for being an art major, because my portfolio is so disorder is not you know, me college was not, I wasn't if I completely understand why I was rejected. It was like, completely thrown together. I was probably like, late on it too. But I decided to become an art minor because I didn't need to be accepted into any program to do that. I just You declared art I was a history major and in our minor, yes. So I did work for those courses. And, you know, I loved it, but I wasn't going to, you know, become a full time artists because that just wasn't a realistic option ever. And then I got offered a job as an art teacher, by an old teacher of mine who I just happened to run into, and she's like, Oh, you're an artist, you want to teach art. And I was, yeah. That was my first job. I had a daughter's at that point. She was one. So I, you know, I had to take the job. I taught art, which was great. And I would do a little bit of drawing, you know, for lesson planning and my free time, but I really didn't have time to devote to my art as much. But you know, in the beginning, I was really painting just things that I thought people would like, everyone's well, some come to me with the condition and, oh, can you paint my house, like, a painting of my house? Or can you pay a portrait of my dog or things like that. So I wasn't really painting for myself, I was, I was just, you know, make a little extra money here and there. It really wasn't until the birth of my third my son Wallace that I started painting during his naptime. Because in the States, we don't have any type of maternity leave. So I, it was either I had my third child, it was either like go back to work, and pay an astronomical amount of childcare, or just stay at home with my kid. And, you know, so I stayed at home, and then, you know, he had a study naptime. And that was my, my time to paint. And that's when I really started to, you know, paint for myself and just paint for the pleasure of painting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was there a trigger at that point to, to encourage you to go back to painting or was just something, you sort of just thought, Oh, I just want to do this. Yeah, it was, it was, well, actually, there was an event we our basement flooded. And so we had a spare bedroom in the basement. And I had been kind of painting out of it. But you know, like I said, before, not really, painting work for myself, it was more of, you know, these little side jobs. And when the basement flooded, we had to completely refinished the basement, change the flooring, you know, like, pull everything up. And I told my husband, I was like, you know, I really think instead of a spare bedroom down there, let's just put some cheap tile down. And I'll make it my art studio. And so that was really what really pushed me to start creating and then I had this big space to create and, and experiment and just make a mess. And that was like, such an exciting time. For me. Oh, that sounds awesome. I'm really taken by the colors that you use in your AU. I mean, I get the vibes that you're a spiritual person. He's from like chakras or like, is it? Like head? Is there a connection there? Or is it just totally intuitive or so, um, it's interesting, I grew up Catholic and, like going to Catholic school for 13 years of my life and very strict upbringing. But as I you know, especially as became a mother and became more comfortable in myself and who I was, I have explored, you know, spirituality in a wider sense. I'm not restricted to any sort of traditional faith. And I do have my Reiki level one training so I do and really use the chakra colors. And I do you know, only I practice taro which you know, as a child was told that I was summoning the devil sort of thing. You know, as a as an adult woman. It's like I know what works for me spiritually. And I know how to explore my own intuition. And I'm not really like I'm not afraid of being judged anymore for those sorts of things. Yeah, but I do, I try to use the softer, more feminine girlish pinks. And because it reminds me of my childhood, and a lot of my work is trying to go back and find that inner child and find what she enjoyed and what brought her joy and made her happy and gave her life. Yeah, so so much of my work is going back in time. And it is sometimes dark or subject matter. So I use the the kind of bright colors to almost reframe it and make it a little more digestible. Because, you know, if the subjects I was painting, were painted in, you know, dark, gloomy colors, that's just for me, that's not life, life is a balance of light and dark. Yeah, so, you know, the bad things happen. But something, something is coming out of that some, some kind of treasure is coming out of a bad event, it's always going to even out. So I do try to make my you know, even if my subject matter is death, or, you know, fear or abandonment, or trauma, I do try to keep these kinds of inviting colors into the piece because I do want people to bring it in and kind of reframe their mindset about certain things. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, it's almost like you're saying, okay, so this is, this is gonna be tough. This is hard. But you know, what, you can look at it through different eyes, you don't have to see it as a, you know, a really big scary, massive negative thing. Right? Right. It's almost like it's almost like a form of therapy, you know? Yes. Yeah, absolutely is in creating, the series that I'm most known for is the unmasking the self. And it wasn't, it had nothing to do with COVID I started this. I did this series in 2019. But I do have the masks, because I feel like as young girls, from an early age, we're very much conditioned to wear masks to hide our emotions. And so my whole life, I've struggled with depression and anxiety and just, you know, put on the mask, smile, perform, be a good girl, you know, do all the things for everybody. And, you know, and so that's a lot of pressure. And I think that especially little girls are under enormous pressure, whereas boys are kind of given a pass and boys will be boys and, and but girls are there's a much higher standard that they're held to. There's an account that growing up and I feel it, I felt it for my daughter. And and I have to I have two boys that, you know. I mean, things are changing, obviously. But the series was really born out of that hole. Who am I? What is my identity? And did I ever really even have one even as a child, you know, like, it's something you really you are hidden under layers of masks and different personas and different identities that people depend on you. And as a mother, it just becomes heavy and you're aware. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, I had a look on your website at the, at those pictures of your work. And it's just it's so profound, like when you start thinking about that stuff. Like it's how we start off the day starting with anything. Yeah, man, like, so you're right, having that. That attractive, sort of outside layer. It allows you to venture in without fear. I think you can sort of start to creep into it. And yeah, yes, it's very inviting. So you have three children. So your oldest 15. So I have a son who is nine. Yep. And then I have a son who is five. And my five year old is on the autism spectrum. So that was another big moment in our lives too. kind of reevaluate what it meant to raise a child. And because we had a two before who were semi nurse. But my middle one is, you know, we're still we're still getting evaluated. But the youngest CEO, he wasn't speaking. And he just, you know, would, he was quirkier, and you know, would have the meltdowns and so but when the diagnosis came back, it was very shocking to me, I was not expecting it. But, I mean, he is the most amazing human being in the world. And he is, he did a program for two years for children on the spectrum, intense therapy. And now he is in a neurotypical classroom with a teacher's aide, and he's doing fantastic. But yeah, that was a, you know, that was another dark period that I've illustrated in my work. And just the whole stigma around autism, and you know, something as something that needs to be cured. It's not something that needs to be cured. It's just a completely different, it's a different way that your brain works. And all of our brains work differently. And so I'm kind of, I do I am very passionate about, you know, autism advocacy, and just reframing it like, this isn't some tragedy, this is actually an amazing gift for my son. I mean, he's just the most amazing little human being sees the world in such a way that you I mean, that brings joy to him and brings joy to the people around him. And we all love Wallace. And he is so incredible. It's this, like, amazing little light being rainbow soul who just has these amazing ways of thinking and speaking and seeing the world and yeah, so it's really been such a great gift to us as a family. Yeah, absolutely. can sort of allows you to, to change your perspective on things or look at things in a different way. And, yeah, yeah. That's all always a you know, one of my fears. Because it's like it, like You're conditioned to think that it is, you know, so terrible. And in for some people, it is a big struggle. And I'm very lucky that we had him in early intervention therapy, and he has just grown so much. Yeah. And yeah, it's amazing. And his siblings are amazing. With him. Yeah. So it's really great. Yeah, that's awesome. Any of you children artistic as well? Do? You know, while this would be the most artistic it's, and my son Leo, my middle. He loves football. Loves in it. American football. Yep. So he loves to draw football fields from every NFL team. But that's kind of the center of it. He's not going to draw any other picture. He's not going to draw a family portrait. It's literally just binders full of different football fields. And then he'll have little numbers and scores are involved. Yeah, but then Wallace Wallace really does like to come into the studio with me and he likes the sensory aspect of he likes touching the knee, you know, the wetness the feelings. And then my daughter who's 15 is a brilliant musician. Yeah. So she's not really interested in you know, visual arts but she's pretty I mean, she's pretty amazing guitar piano she can pick anything up and yeah, good. That's awesome. So you recently created an Instagram page for artists in the Kensington area. So you're very passionate about sharing community? Yeah, tell us tell us how you came up decide to do that. You know, I I really just believe that we, we grow and we share and and it's good for all of us to kind of like rise by lifting each other up and I I feel like having a daughter in high school, you kind of are forced to go back into that dark period where girls are cutting each other down constantly. And I do live in this amazing community of Kensington, it's a very, it's a small town, outside of DC. And, you know, we can walk to all these small businesses, little boutiques, little antique stores, thrift stores, we've got a couple of food places, it's like, my kids can literally walk, if they want to, you know, pick up a sandwich for lunch or get a soda. And that's something that in the DC area isn't that common, you know, it's a lot of commuting, a lot of driving. And in our area, we have this nice little perfect place where we can walk everywhere, and the neighbors are so friendly, and everyone knows each other. And I know so many artists just in my community. And I realized that we were all working very independently, you know, everyone's we all give each other a shout out or whatever. But I really just wanted to, like bring us all together and be like, Guys, this is really special, you know, that we have so many artists in our little community. And I want to eventually create, curate some shows, do some public, you know, shows or maybe even open a gallery, two years down the road, but just kind of tapping into this creative economy that's in our community that's so valuable, but it's just not seen very much. And a lot of these women are mothers working out of their homes. So we don't have much studio space in the community. And I just kind of wanted to bring awareness to that. Because people you know, around the holidays, especially everybody's looking for this special gift, and everyone wants to buy from artists in our community. So I thought by putting this together and kind of having it be a landing page for everyone, and just promote everyone, all of them and, and just bring us together and have this kind of be like a united force in the community. So I love that. And I think also too, it shows, there's no, there's no ego of like, you're not competing with anyone, you know, it's like you're welcoming everybody. It's not saying, Oh, yours is better Rios there. It's like, it's just a supportive group, you know? Exactly. And I feel like that's what I really needed. Because I was finding that in, in the city in Washington, DC, I was finding communities of women that I would, you know, be a part of, and I would support and they would support me, but right in my backyard, you know, I can walk to, you know, five artists houses right now, you know, and I'm like, let's do it here. Let's do it here. I don't have to drive into the city to get my community of artists. I can build one right here. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so special. It's something that you know, you can you can help grow and foster that. And yes, yeah, I love that. Turning back to what we're talking about earlier about, you said something. Well, the way I'm remembering it might not be the exact words but it was to do with not worrying what people thought. And I want to just read out a quote that you wrote on your Instagram page. You said, after years of hating myself, I am proud of myself, I painted this huge effing painting behind me and I love it. I don't care if you like it, or anyone else likes it. I love it. My work is powerful and meaningful. And that's a really profound statement. That's like, it is so like, you just, it's just your truth. Yeah, it took me a long time to get there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know what I feel like once once the layers come off, and the ego comes off, and yeah, that sounds a little ego. You know, no, I'm with you. Yeah. But I you know, once you start worrying about people judging you and what others think of you when you more worry about like, No, I'm going to be true to myself and my authentic self and express that to people, you give other people permission to do this. Same. And if we are all, you know, trying to raise the vibration of humanity and, and work towards becoming our authentic selves and discovering our truth and our gifts and our talents, then everybody wins. So, you know, all the people walking around trying to people pleasing, be everything for everybody. And this kind of whole narrative of motherhood is the murderer, and sacrificing. And the first thing that sacrifice is like, your sense of self, right? It's just like you are not, you're just a vessel, and you're just a feeding machine and a maid and a cook. And, and all these things rolled into one that, like, you're so much more than that, like, they're everybody has their unique talents and gifts. And, you know, I did hide mine for so long, like, as a younger child, and even as an adult, not really finding out like what, oh, make a few bucks here, but what's the value of it, but I think that through Instagram, as annoyed as I get with him, it is a great, powerful tool to connect people and to, I mean, to inspire people, I'm so inspired by so many artists. And when I created an interview, I had no idea there were so many inspirational artists, so many artists that I could fall in love with their work, and just so moved by their work. And it just, it's amazing. And if we all just kind of get to a point where we can say, this is me. And this is my work. And if you don't like it, whatever. No, I didn't make it for you. I made it for me. Yeah, yeah. So I absolutely love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that and put it in my quotes, because that honestly, I feel like I had a similar sort of Revelation. At some point. I'm not sure exactly when, but in. In my childhood, I did a lot of singing competitions, it was sort of something that we had to do. And there was this massive emphasis placed on getting a prize getting a place winning. So there was this. Yeah, this huge connection between for me between singing and being good or being better than someone or someone telling you, you were good. You know, this adjudicator this one person saying, I liked you better than that person, you know, this validation came from other people. And as I've gotten older, it's like, it's the same thing. What literally what you just said, I don't care if you don't like it, because I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for me. And I think, because like, any form of art is so subjective. You know, there's plenty of art that I might not necessarily like or love, but I can appreciate that the person that's done it is done an amazing job in creating that, and they've poured a piece of themselves into this, you know, whether it's music or dancing, or, you know, visual art, you know, so I think, yeah, I've come a long way, in, in many years of just accepting and, and I still put myself up for different competitions, but in different ways, like online or writing competitions. And if I don't win, it's like, that's fine. Because it wasn't my time, you know, I can see that everyone's on their own journey. And even just as recently as last last Thursday night, I was in Adelaide for a competition and, and I didn't win it, and I had no pangs of wish it was me, I mean, would have been nice to win. But I can see that that person, that one that was there on their journey, it's this is their time, you know, and it's other incredibly freeing and empowering to be able to take away that you just feel you feel unencumbered, you just feel light and, you know, yes. Once we remove the need to be validated by others, that is such a like, that is such a turning point. And obviously, of course, I still do get caught up in that a lot. It's not I'm on a journey and evolving and not yet. But I'm definitely like at the beginning when I first created my Instagram, it was like, I really was putting work online because I wanted people to like it. Obviously I wanted people to follow me I wanted people to buy my art and and that's the kind of work I was putting out and then a curator actually asked me who is Sarah Renzi Sanders, the artist. And I was like, I don't know. I it was a really hard question. It really caused me to like, like Who do I want to be? I can be any what I want. But I definitely don't want to be this person just creating, like boring abstracts that people like, so that they will sell. I want to be more than that, you know, so I want, I want my work to touch people, I want my work to inspire people, I want my work to move people, I don't just want to create something pretty to match someone's couch, you know? Yes. And I feel like I know a lot of artists who still aren't doing that and have been doing it for years. And that's their business model, and it works for them. But for me, I think I want to create more of a legacy than, you know, a financial IQ. I mean, obviously, I like I like money. There's nothing wrong with money, but I know what you mean. Yeah, it's not my first it's not my number one, you know, it's not my number one priority. So, yeah, I understand the journey, just the journey, every rejection is a stepping stone to getting where you want to be. So, you know, everybody's been rejected numerous, there's no one successful that hasn't been rejected 1000 times. So yeah, it's interesting, use that analogy. I interviewed a lady in Australia, just a couple of days ago. And she used the same sort of that imagery of she had to sort of she was saying that she was meeting getting to these like roadblocks then she'd have to change direction and, and someone said to her, why don't you look at that, instead of a block, you change direction, and you're going across like a lily pad and you have to go across you had to go to this one. It wasn't a straight line. And she said once she changed that in her mind, that way of looking at it just totally changed. And that's the same thing like the stepping stones. It's not you know, rarely is anything in life in a straight line. You know, we take that turns and and end up with Yeah, totally, totally. Growth is not linear. It's like a big ball of wool or something. It's just like. Topic that that I talk about a lot on my podcast is mommy guilt. And I believe it's something that probably is a resonates across all boundaries, like nationalities, countries, that kind of thing. Is that something is mum guilt, sort of a term that you've heard much of or you've got some opinions on? You know, I have heard it. And I do know women, estate's mostly women that are working full time, that have that mom guilt, I am lucky enough to, you know, be home and working while my kids are in school, and then I pick them up, and then I'm home with them for six more hours. And chauffeuring them to various activities. So um, I don't really have it, because I also feel like, it's, it's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me singing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly. That you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. So yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it. I could not have put that better myself. That is brilliant. Absolutely love that. Like, the more I talk to moms, the more that I think that society is the one driving this Mum, do you like the judgment? The judgment that you get from, you know, other mums and social media this perception of what a mum has to be done Um, yeah, and people are going hang on a minute, I don't buy into that, like, like you said, what I'm doing, I'm not neglecting my children, I'm, you know, I'm doing something for myself, that's going to make me, you know, feel better about my mothering role when I come back to them, you know, in a few I'm going to feel fulfilled, so that I can give myself more fully to my children. Exactly, exactly. And you're right about the social media pressure. And there's this whole culture, which I'm sure you know, about the mom influencers, and you know, and they're perfect little children, and they're perfect matching outfits, and, you know, and it's, to me, just so I feel like these women are, are sacrificing so much of themselves for this identity of perfection in motherhood. And I just don't understand how you could be authentically happy when your life is, you know, taking pictures of your children, making sure they look perfect. And you know, I'm not gonna send out Christmas cards this year. Sorry, I just know, I don't have any pictures of my kids like, altogether smiling. So you know, and I think that's okay. And I give myself permission to say, Yeah, you know, I do Christmas cards every other year. Yeah, yeah. And I just don't, I don't have the time to battle with my children until like, bribe them with candy and, and get maybe a mediocre picture of them sitting on the porch. And them all hate me for the rest of the day, because they had to sit in the cold and get a picture. You know, and like, I'm not the mom taking my kids to the pumpkin patch. And, you know, putting them on top of Tompkins. And you know what, I'm just not that person. Yes. And a lot of people, it's just like, they automatically think, well, if I don't do this, I'm not if I don't take my kid to the pumpkin, but it's just in the states. The Pumpkin Patch is a big fall activity. Yeah. Which I don't really buy into, because I'm like, I don't understand it. But it's a good photo op, I think for the moms. Yeah. And yeah, no, I we just don't do that. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of a lot of it's like, people were coming back to that judgment thing. Like, people have to show that they're doing something or people who literally, if it didn't, if it's not on social media, it didn't happen. You know, everything's got to be on social media and, and it's almost like, Who are you trying to justify? Are you trying to make yourself feel better? Like, what are you why are you doing this? Like, yeah, justify your role as a mother that I Oh, I spend lots of time with my kids. I'm trying to make myself feel better about it. Or, you know, is it for other people to say, Oh, wow, they're doing lots of stuff, you know, like, my exhausting, you know, to me, like you're talking about these masks, like, it's a facade that they're putting up, they're creating this pretend life. Right? And that's, I mean, with my daughter, you know, now she's on social media, of course. And it's, it's just, I want to show her that no, this isn't like, this isn't real. These girls that you see with their filters on and perfectly dressed and posing places like, that's, that took that to take that picture, took a lot of work. And it's not like this perfectly, like little snapshot of my life, this is very much set up. This is a this is very curated. This, you know, this person in real life, they don't look like that. And I do like a lot of people that do it, it, it's almost like, I think with the motherhood thing, there's that loss of identity. And they maybe feel like by creating this diary of images that are perfect. It is like more concretely like, Oh, this is my identity. This is who I am, this is who I want to be. And this is where I want to show the world. But it doesn't come from a deep place. And that's where it becomes problematic. Yeah, that's it's not authentic. It's not. They're not living the truth, I suppose. Right. Right. Yeah, I think authentically, like you become your authentic self, and you express that and then the right people are attracted to you. I tell my daughter all the time, because you know, at 15 You're going through so many friend troubles and morphing of groups and, you know, drama, teenage drama, and I'm like, if you just be yourself, be true to yourself and the right people come to you and I didn't learn that until I was probably like, 33, you know, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a long journey to get there for sure. But when it happens, it happens. And yeah, I mean, I've so I went through a period of my life where I probably had no close friends for about 10 years. And then most recently, it's just like, I have all these people I really enjoy talking to. And we really connect. And it's, it's because I've done the internal work, it's because I'm expressing myself and who I am. And, you know, the people that are at that point in their life at that vibration are attracted to authentic people. So yeah, yeah. I've recently talking to other artists, mothers, it's hard to apply to things sometimes and not feel like there is an aspect of, you know, well, we mainly don't want a mother to be the artists resident, or we maybe don't want a mother to be the face of it just because she's always busy. Or she always has other things going on. Or her life so chaotic already, you know, like, there are these, like, certain excuses, I feel like that people make for not working with artists, mothers. And it wasn't until I talked to my friend the other day that I really realized that and she said something like, about posting her kids on her social media, like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, like, doesn't man ever have to think about, you know, posting a picture of his child affecting his career? No, he doesn't. In fact, it probably it does boost his, you know, his like ability to get jobs because people are like, Oh, he's a dad, he has a family to provide for but for women, it's a totally different. It's like, oh, well, you know, she has all this work to do at home. And she has all these responsibilities. But I'm like, I mean, me anymore. We are the hardest working people on the planet. Saying I have the time to do this. I have the time to do it. I want to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Now when you talked about before the taro Have you ever done or thought about having, like creating a deck with your honor? Yes. That is probably what's coming next for me. Yeah, so the whole thing was, I had this really creepy story happen. And it's, it was a few years ago, and I was visiting my grandmother's grave, and my grandmother is very, very close to my house. So I do visit her quite often. And I went to her grave, and there was a little like walking path above above her grade. And on the walking path, there was this velvet blue bag, like a little pouch. And I was like, what is that and I kind of opened it and peeked inside and it was a deck of tarot cards. And I was, you know, I love that kind of stuff. But, um, but I was also a little bit like, am I supposed to take this or do I? So I texted my whole family like what do I do? They're like, don't take it, don't take it like that is not when you don't want that, you know? And so I was like okay, but I think it means something. So I I did take a picture of the first card on top and then I looked up the deck and I actually found it online and I ordered it and it is influenced so much of my work and it has been so spot on. But yeah, I think it's kind of like a psychological tool where Anybody can do it. And anybody can interpret what it means for them at that point in their lives. So it's not really this whole, you know, like I was taught in grade school, you know, summoning the devil or like, this tool of Satan, it's, it's, it's literally a card of beautiful pictures and you shuffle it and you choose some and then you decide how that relates to your life and if that's gonna give you guidance, or tell you what next step to take, or maybe just how to have how to change your mindset about something. So, so I do think that that is coming for me and I have sketched out a few things, but, you know, that's like a long term project. But, ya know, I definitely think my grandmother said that to me and was like, Hey, you should do this. Yeah, cuz you know what, when I started looking through your work, I was just instantly had this like, Oh, these need to be on tarot cards, because this is you know, that. Yeah. Like, there's I mean, there's definitely a big influence on my work. Yeah. Sorry, go. Now go. Oh, no, I was gonna say even before I was creating this body of work, I was creating like a more abstract, like, I don't know, if you're familiar with like, paint boring. It's very trendy right now. It's old, like, yeah, liquid paint boring. So I was doing a series of those. And I was naming them as for cards, you know, like two of cups are to me up because of the cards from my grandmother. And it was like, Oh, well, I did this one the day I found it. And that was the that was the card that was on top. So yeah, so I was even before I was creating the stuff that actually looks like Taro. Yeah, definitely going to do that. That is Yeah, no, I'm bored. And I will get some because that is beautiful connection as much. A lot of my work kind of addresses that tension between you growing up in a super Catholic environment and Hoekman and what? You know, those feelings of like, I'm doing something bad. Yeah, no, yeah. Like, we need thinking for myself and exploring my own spirituality is bad. I need to just do what the grownups you know, and my sister and I would be like, you know, locked in our we would have we had a little walk in closet that we shared no room and we would read each other's cards, and we had our crystal ball and, and I definitely grown up to be that person. Like, I have a crystal ball. And we make cards every day. And I meditate every day. Yeah, yeah. But it was something that you had to hide away because it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yes. Totally. I wanted to ask you about your other project that you do you mix media Madonna, is that? Is there sort of a Yeah, to do with that traditional. You know, practice religion. It's so interesting, because i People often ask me, oh, are you like very Catholic and I was raised Catholic, and I am a part of I do believe that's part of my culture, and my cultural upbringing. You know, my grandparents came from Italy. And, you know, I grew up with, you know, the Madonna in these pictures in their houses in their homes and bring the rosary a lot. But I moved my mixed media data, I do try to kind of bring my own twist on Mary and make it more about worshiping the idea of the mother. You know, this is like, the mother is so often forgotten, and I really want to highlight the mother and I used to teach a big lesson on the the evolution of the way Mary was painted in art history. And she went from being you know, this kind of stoic, you know, very embellished icon. Due to being, you know, kind of like Raphael portraying her like a woman of the day, like during the Renaissance, like she was portrayed, she wasn't portrayed like, Mary traditionally in, you know, in her time she was portrayed, like, this is a mother or a normal woman that I'm painting, and I'm painting her in the clothes of the day with a very thin Halo, and she's becoming human. And relatable. Yeah. And so, I do, I just am fascinated by all the different cultures in all the different ways of, like, visualizing marry, and kind of making it my own and, and making it you know, more, more than the religion, I think it's like, the the Motherhood is the most simple and the spirituality of just connecting to the mother of all, you know, yeah, and I use, you know, prayer books and people send me like, literally antique postcards and things like that. And I'll find books in all bookstores. And it really is just like magic to kind of find all these pieces and put them together in a more beautiful way, because I feel like she was always always just seen as like, oh, it's Jesus's mom. It's Jesus's mom. And even in Catholicism, you know, we do elevate Mary a lot more than other religions, but I've wanted to be something more than that. And just something that every woman can kind of look at and be like, oh, yeah, like, I like I like this. You've had people that are like, I, you know, I'm Jewish. I'm not religious at all. But I really like this piece speaks to me. And that's kind of what I want it to be more of, like a, like, this isn't just for Catholic people. This is for everybody. Yeah. And that's, I mean, it's a hard balance. Because, you know, some people are like, whoa, like, I'm not religious. I'm, you know, but I think it's a little more than that. Yeah, absolutely. It's like that universal sort of message of Allah. It is. That's what it is. That's actually what it is. It's yeah. And that's how it came out. I mean, yeah, it was, like, totally born of love. And just, in me being a mother and just, this is another mother that I'm going to celebrate. And and you know, it is mostly mothers that buy a lot of people buy them for gifts for their mothers or for you know, yeah, but and they're all different. And I tried to make each one very, I mean, at this point, I've probably made around 50 of them, I would think that you know, are just out there in different places. But I just keep making them and even if I have the same image like I have a lot of Raphael because Raphael did a lot of Madonna's but if I have the same image I still want to make it like different different colors different flowers, different elements. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I'm just imagining them would look nice up here and we're making a whole dashes them right now. I was trying to get it done for you know, Black Friday which is this American holiday that everyone shops on but not finished yet. You could make make your own shopping I just want to have some for the holidays for people to buy, you know because because I don't sell my large pieces. So you know, the way I make a little bit of money is Prince would Madonna's release Have you got anything on the go at the moment any projects or series that you're working on? That you want to share? Tell us about her. Um, so I have started working on these large abstract pieces and they they're kind of could be described as more graphic abstract, sharper lines. And like, you know, boom, bright colors. I do a lot of third eye stuff, which I've done my entire career but it's way mo here. This one is in progress. So but you know, it's more of like Like, inspired by nature, but yeah, like more of a very symmetrical Yeah, structured vision. And I do get these when I meditate every day. And I do, sometimes, especially around the full moon, get these kind of like, very clear images in my head, that when I come out of meditation, I'll sketch them really quick. And then I just there they come, they come pretty quick, and it's easy to pick the colors. And I use kind of my standard color palette that I use for my other series just, I just decided I'm just going to always take with my favorite colors, and it makes it a lot easier because then everything looks kind of cohesive, even though you know, this, the style is so different. But you know, I've been I, I've submitted a few to some open calls, and I been rejected for those. So, you know, I mean, I've been rejected for every everything I've ever painted at some point, but so, you know, we're still working through that kind of my artists statement for those pieces and not try. You know, I tried to sound authentic, but at the same time, sometimes people are like, Sarah, like, bring it down a little bit. Like, with all the woowoo like, yeah, manifestation stuff, and I'm like, okay, to put that was actually meant to say that, like, you know, why should you have to tone yourself down? Like, maybe they're not the right people to talk to you absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. I just think that my own art practice has made me a better mother, even if that means less time with my children, I think that we all need to figure out that balance and, and what we need to keep us sane, because it's very easy to just spiral into this kind of loss of self and just becoming shells of people as mothers. And I feel like having something of your own as a mom, and not just a career, but something of your own. More than a hobby, a passion, you know, is so important. And I just think every, every mother needs that outlet for themselves. And to remember that, like, I am a separate entity, I'm human in myself, I am not just, you know, because we often feel like we're just like, walking around with children attached to us. And, and with all of the, our, I've painted the woman, you know, with all the arms before balancing all the things and yeah, and and we're so much more than that. And I think once motherhood starts being more valued, because it shouldn't be valued. I mean, we are raising the future of society. So there should be more emphasis placed on the value of mothers. And I think I think we're getting there, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like each each generation is sort of pushing those boundaries and pushing the, the expectations of I'm going to say the patriarchal expectations, because that's basically what it is. Yeah, so each generation moving forward, you know, breaking ground and, hopefully, yeah, no, I think it is, I really, really truly believe that. That each of us, you need all the other moms that are out there elevating other women and, and motherhood. We're making a difference. And, and I mean, we're making a difference to our daughters. They're seeing us do this, and they're gonna do even greater things. So yeah, I truly believe that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's a that's a beautiful sentiment to end on. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your giving me all right. Thanks so much, Alison, is great talking to ya EJ. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat. We With an artistic mom

Kate King US counsellor + art therapist S2 Ep60 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Kate King, a licensed professional counsellor and a certified art therapist, and a mom of of 2 based in Boulder Colorado. USA Kate grew up with a lot of art around her, her grandmother was always very creative as were her parents, her dad was a stone sculptor. Her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketch books that she would always carry around with her. Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already before knowing what it really was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver where Kate graduated with a dual Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Art. It wasn't until she completed College that she googled what to do with these studies and found art therapy. From there Kate eagerly pursued post-graduate education at Naropa University (a Buddhist-inspired school in Boulder, CO) where she earned a Master’s Degree in Transpersonal Counselling Psychology and Art Therapy. Kate is a Licensed Professional Counsellor and Board Certified and Registered Art Therapist. Her private practice is a colourful, creative, cozy space located in the Ken Caryl area of Littleton, Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, The Radiant Life Project , Kate offers a holistic, preventive health perspective which incorporates verbal, creative, and body-centred therapy skills and techniques. She operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path, and re-creating their story along the way. Kate began writing her book The Authentic Mother - Creative Art Engagement to Support the New Parent when her son was 3 months old, as she was unable to find a book that could help her in the creative way she was seeking. Kate has also created a set of oracle cards, The Ink & Wings Oracle Deck , and I was fortunate enough to receive a reading from Kate in this podcast! If you are interested you can take a look at the cards she drew for me here Connect with Kate website / instagram / facebook / youtube Connect with the podcast - website / instagram *** This episode contains discussion around mental health, anxiety, post natal depression and birth trauma. *** If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Kate King. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and a certified Art Therapist, as well as being a mom of two based in Boulder, Colorado in the United States. Kate grew up with a lot of art around her. Her grandmother was always very creative, as were her parents. Her dad was a stone sculptor, her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketchbooks that she would always carry around with her. And Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already, before really knowing what it was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver, where Kate graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in psychology and art. It wasn't until she completed college that she Googled what to do with these two modalities and found art therapy. From there, Kate eagerly pursued postgraduate education at Naropa University, a Buddhist inspired school in Boulder, Colorado, where she earned a master's degree in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and board certified and registered art therapist. Her private practice is a colorful, creative and cozy space located in the ken Carroll area of Littleton in Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, the Radiant Life Project, Kate offers a holistic preventative health perspective, which incorporates verbal, creative and body centered therapy skills and techniques. Kate operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path and recreating their story along the way. If today's episode is triggering for you at all, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I have compiled a list of great international resources on my website, Alison newman.net/podcast. This episode contains discussions around mental health, anxiety, postnatal depression and birth trauma. The music used on today's episode is from my new age, Ambient Music trio called LM Joe and is used with permission. Lm j is myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for being a part of this. It's really it's lovely to meet you. It's lovely to meet you. I'm grateful to be here. Yeah. So whereabouts are you in the US? I am in Denver, Colorado. Yeah, right. That's pretty nice there, isn't it? It's beautiful. And very close to the infamous Red Rocks. concert venue. So I don't know if you've heard of that. But it's really pretty place. Yeah, right. So what time of year is over there now? You're in your summer, aren't you? Yes. This is the hottest time of the summer for us. Yeah, right. So jealous of where you are. I would love to be winter right now. Don't be jealous. It's horrible. Here. It is just fair. I just, we've just come back from a week up in Queensland where it's like nicer. Because it's just so gray. Like I can deal with cold but I just can't deal with lack of sunshine. Like it's just just gray. And it just makes me annoyed. And yeah, you're like in Colorado. We have like 300 days of sunshine here. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Don't tempt me. That sounds really. Maybe it's time for a vacation. Yeah, I've actually never been to America. So there you go. And I've never been Where You Live either so I would love to visit. Australia is pretty good. A lot Australia. Yes, I've heard beautiful things you after your name, you've got lots of letters. Can you just just tell us what, what you what you do? Yes. So the M A is representative of my master's degree, which is in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Transpersonal Counseling Psychology is a form of psychology that considers where the psyche and the spirit meet. And so there's a lot of influences around spirituality and just kind of open mindedness and open heartedness into different traditions and modalities. So that's the MA, the LPC is my Licensed Professional Counselor certification. So that's my therapy license here in the state of Colorado. And the ATR since I wrote this book, actually, I have a new credential now it's ATR dash BC, which stands for board certified registered art therapist. And so that's a art therapy designation. Excellent. So going right back to the beginning, I guess, how did you first get interested in? Was it the art that came first? Or sort of the thinking about people? Like how did you sort of get drawn into this sort of area? Yeah, it was the art. My my family is sort of creative at the roots. My grandmother was always very creative. My dad is a stone sculptor. And so I had a lot of art surrounding me growing up, and my family really supported just expressing that way. And I used to have these black sketchbooks that I just would fill with drawings, I would carry these with me everywhere I went, I had bookshelves filled with them. And, you know, they were, I wouldn't go anywhere with them. They were always with me. And so I think I was doing art therapy on myself before I knew what it was. It wasn't until I was about to graduate from college. And I had a Bachelors of Arts Degree and a psychology degree in a double bachelor's focus that I was like, What do I do with my life? And I actually Googled, what do you do with an art degree and a psychology degree? And that's how I first learned about art therapy from Google. Yeah. And then did you sort of go, this feels very familiar to me, like, Was it something that just sat naturally with you anyway? Yes, it resonated so strongly that I just, I stopped really looking and I just started looking for a graduate program where I could really studied what I wanted to study. And I ended up at a school here in Colorado called Naropa University that was founded by a Buddhist monk. And it has a strong background of meditation and different kinds of spiritual practices. And so the coming together of science and spirituality and creativity and psychology, it was just like, everything that I was interested in. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I didn't actually know that places like that existed. That is really cool. It is very cool. I did not know either, until I plugged them into Google. So for people who aren't familiar, how would you describe art therapy? Art Therapy is it's a form of, there's actually two different schools of art therapy. One is considered art as therapy, which is that the art is inherently healing, and you don't really need to talk about it, do anything, you know, just creating heals things within us because it helps us to sublimate or move the energy through our body and out from us in a way that's productive. And the other school of art therapy is art as psychotherapy, which is more of what I do in my private practice where I would provide specific directives, kind of projects for people that are designed with the intention of helping them investigate what's going on in their lives and have sort of a visual representation of that, rather than just the talking that we normally do in therapy, which can so often, kind of people can Avoid talking about certain things, or they can hide information from themselves from their therapists that way. But art therapy is just a really gentle kind of backdoor into the psyche that allows you to work through the metaphor of color, and line and shape and image. So you see what you're ready to see in your art. And the art therapist can sort of gently reflect like, wow, it looks like you only used you know the color blue today, what does blue mean to you? And then we can sort of have a collaborative dialogue about what this symbology looks like in your life and how your art can be kind of a roadmap for your psyche? Hmm. Do you find then that people that what actually comes out of people is often it's it's things that you can't put words to generally, because it's so deep, maybe people don't even realize what they're bringing out of themselves? If that makes sense. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, people, they don't know, they don't expect the art to move through them in the way it does. But usually, once they do create something, it's easier to talk about it because it already exists in some form. Now that they've made it, it doesn't feel so pent up. And sometimes talking about things through metaphor just feels a lot safer. Instead of someone talking about their trauma, they can talk about the, you know, the lightning bolts that are in their imagery, and that holds the kind of energy of that trauma without it feeling so triggering that it shuts them down. Hmm. Yeah. So it's a really good way for people to communicate without feeling. I don't know, scared, I suppose that. Yeah, wonderful. It's like a natural titration process where they can, they can kind of go as deep or as as intensive as they want to go. And they don't have to do anything they don't want to do their art kind of helps to guide their comfort. Yeah, yeah, that is really cool. Because I've had my fair share of, of therapy over the years, but I've never done art therapy. And it's sort of a kind of wonder, it's just to see what happens. Especially as a creative person, I'm surprised that surprise, you wouldn't do that. Although, you know, you don't have to be a creative person to benefit from art therapy, I actually, I really enjoy seeing people come to art therapy, who have no art background at all, because they don't have any picture in their mind for making something beautiful or frameable. It's just expression for the sake of expression. And sometimes that takes a lot of pressure off. So for people who are already artists, sometimes we need to move through the layers of like, releasing some of the pressure. And so I'll have them make art with their nondominant hand or with their eyes closed, things like that, so that they don't have that pressure to make something beautiful. Sometimes you need to make something messy or ugly. Yeah, cuz that's the thing is in a restaurant, you're not really addressing the issues. I mean, you're showing new issues, I suppose the the lack of letting go and control and the pressure that you feel and the expectation, whatever. But yeah, perhaps not then allowing you to go into that next layer of what you kind of might need to work through, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. But it's all it's all good work. And I think whatever is ready to be worked on comes up in this session. And so we don't really have to dig too deep. It just shows up, because ultimately, our systems want to heal. Yeah, I've heard that actually like that, that I can't, I don't know how to describe it. But it's like your, your inner, whatever that is, knows where it's supposed to be. And it will do what it needs to do to try and get you there. But then the humaneness of us and the ego stops us from getting there. Right, exactly, yeah, we get in our own way, a lot of the time. Art is a really great way to help to sort of release some of those narratives and just let you connect with the part of you that knows what you need to heal and express and grow. Yeah. Coming back to your own art, what sort of style or is there a way you can describe like the mediums you like working with what what's sort of your art? Yeah, so my art has sort of changed over time. It's interesting. As an art therapist, I know now that the different kinds of art I made over time were reflective of how healed I was in my own psycho emotional process. So what I do now is I love watercolor and goulash like a like the pigmented like the tubes of watercolor, not the palette necessarily because I like it when it's really vibrant. And I also like to draw I like a lot of detail and I love just black rollerball pens, and then sort of working with them together with watercolor can be interesting. But in the beginning for the longest time, most of my life, I it was just black and white, really intense, patterned, organized drawings. And I now know that that was my way of containment and of kind of holding myself together. And as I went through my own therapeutic journey, I was able to explore more with, you know, watercolor that drips and bleeds and it's less than control. I also really liked colored pencil, just colors really vibrant colors are important to me. And lately, I've been drawing a lot of imagery about goddesses and the divine feminine and sort of the celestial. I have pictures with like a goddess with horns and wings and a sun, you know, solar systems. So it gets a little magical for me. Oh, that's so cool. It's interesting, isn't it, there's probably people out there now thinking, they're thinking about the stuff that they make, that they're starving, they're thinking, Oh, I wonder what that means. Like, we can, we can draw so much from what we're doing. And it's interesting, you say how it changes like I, I have times when and this is just me personally, and I'm sure there's people, you know, we change all the time. But there's some days I really like to draw, and I can't draw like I'm not a draw at all. But I love coloring and I love the sound that it makes. And it makes me feel really grounded. Almost like I have an urge to write in lead pencil like that kind of feeling where I don't know back to the earth where you know, it's I don't know how to describe it anyway. And then other days, like the watercolor, you happy to let things just wish wash everywhere and you don't mind if something dripped somewhere? Or well, maybe then you do. And then you go, Oh, actually, no, I don't want to do this today, I need something that's going to stay more I want it to stay. So we sort of change, even, you know, day to day of what we're using, based on how we're feeling and what we're going through, I suppose. Yes, the materials can mirror what we're feeling. And they can also be used to sort of like nudge us when we're ready for growth. So a really controlled person, when they're stable and resourced. Watercolor would be great for them, because it would sort of push them to become more comfortable with less control. And when you practice that with art, your brain starts to become more familiar with that. And then it's more likely to repeat that in other areas of your life that are not art, like maybe your relationships, you don't have as much control. And you're more okay with that. So it kind of pairs well with all of life. Yeah, that just reminded me of a lady I had on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, Fiona Valentine, and she's in Australia. And her and her husband do classes for businesses, like groups of employees, who want to try and extend their creativity. So they, they get them to draw, and it's something that's achievable. So it's not going to make people feel like alienated that they can do it. And then when they realize that they can actually draw, then it changes those neural pathways. And then like you say, it flows over to the other parts of their life. So the idea is that then it might help them in their work to think differently, or, you know, see things in a different way, I suppose. So it's absolutely a thing, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, our brains are really malleable. And so if we can find some mechanism that helps to teach our brains to think differently, it affects our whole life, it has a ripple effect that reaches really far. Now, I want to start talking about some of the things you've created. And I'm gonna start about your book fairs, which you've kindly sent me a copy of thank you so much. It's called the authentic mother, creative art engagement to support the new parent and I have read through this and it is sensational. It is really, really, like I was blown away. I really, I wish we shouldn't say things like this, but I wish I had had this when I had my first child because I think it would have made a massive difference to my mental wellness and my journey through mental illness. Can you see We've asked what the sort of impetus was to create it and telling us in your own words, rather than me, telling people what it is to share, share what it is all about. Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for your kind words, it really, it really is a labor of love. So, I wrote this book in the very beginning stages of my motherhood journey, after I had my first child, probably when he was, I don't know, maybe three months old, I started writing it because I needed a book. And because I was feeling really, like, shocked and lost and overwhelmed by motherhood, because it was not the beautiful picture that everyone said it would be. The birth was totally traumatic, like it was very, very challenging. And so I kept trying to find a support resource. And everything I looked for it was either kind of shaming or not really validating for the truth, it really didn't give a lot of creative support, which was very important to me at that time. And so I just started to journal and write about my experience. And one day when I was journaling about it, I had left it on my computer, and a friend of mine came over. And she saw it, and she's like, What is this? And I told her and she was like, Kate, you have to publish this. This is what so many moms need. And I'm like, no, nobody wants to read this. And so ultimately, that was the beginning. And she said, Yes, moms need this, for sure. And so because it's an art therapy book, it talks a little bit about the neuroscience and kind of the psychological aspects of what happens in the brain in the body when we become mothers, fathers when we all go through this, but it felt important to have real artwork in it. And so I sent out a beacon to moms and I ended up getting over 35 Real moms who don't identify as artists. And they I sent them the directives that I write about in the book. And they made art for the book. And so I have real, real pieces of artwork for the projects and directives that I've designed to help support moms, dads, just new parents, as they're navigating everything from body image stuff to mental health challenges to issues with your family and your in laws and boundaries, cultural expectations. So it's a really wide variety of directives. And the intention here is really just to support that the motherhood experience is very vast and broad and unique for everyone. And it's important that we have a creative outlet for that, so that we don't spiral down to a place where we feel isolated, and things get worse. So literally, that was this book is what helped you and stopped you from doing just that. Man, thank you for sharing it with the world. That fringe, whoever you are, thank you. Because it is so valuable. It's I don't know, I, I, when I was flipping through it, I just kept thinking, I wish I'd known this, I wish I thought like this, I wish I'd had, I wish like literally I wish I had it would have even with my second child when I was seven years older, I had more experience in the world, I was now working in childcare. So I physically knew how to take care of a child. And I kept telling myself, it's not going to be the same, it's gonna be totally different, you know, for all these, whatever reasons, and my personnel depression was far worse than it ever was when my first child. So the talk that like, and you're saying, Hey, you talk about I guess, what's the word, the jargon? I don't know if that's the right word, but of your background, you know, the the psychology behind things, and you know, the neural pathways and what have you. But that's not overwhelming. It's not like you pick it up and you feel alienated by the words, if you know what I mean. Anyone can pick it up without having any understanding or any background or knowledge in that field. So that's really good. So you don't feel you know, you're already going through enough as a new mother. Like, I don't know this, and I don't know that. But you pick this up and it feels familiar. Which is lovely. It's like, if I'm getting really sloppy now but it literally it feels like you're right here next to me if you know what I mean. Like it feels like you're right here. So I'm getting really emotional. Really does it really feels like that and, and I love that you call it the authentic mother because it's you know, because we have all these, you know, versions of what a mom's supposed to be and the good mom and the bad mom and you're not doing this you're not doing that and you're not doing it right. It's like Get rid of all of that those labels, and you go back to who you are, in your core. You're this child's mother and how to sort of look after yourself and keep yourself well. Sorry, that was really blurry. I appreciate it. No, I It really warms my heart that the book has touched you because that was, that was what I so needed. And that was my intention. I wanted people to feel with this book, like they were talking to a friend. And I wanted it to feel accessible to people who wanted to kind of understand what was going on with them, but didn't have the psychology background. So I'm happy to hear that it doesn't feel dense and jargony accessible to you. Because that's, that was my intention. Now, it's lovely. Sorry, I've just raved on so much. But honestly, I just even as I'm sort of thinking that because I want I want to do this stuff in it, I want to use it in a way. I'm not gonna have any more children. But I feel like I could benefit from doing the the exercises and like you said, the directives in here, thinking it from looking at through another lens, perhaps as other issues going on in my life. So Oh, yes, all of legally. All of these directives are applicable outside of early motherhood as well. I mean, I couldn't really honestly flip to any of them. I just flipped to one that was about just creating this called the insecurity image. It's on page 138. And this is just about creating imagery about what you feel insecure about. A new mom to feel insecure. This could be about your workplace, your relationship, your your new gray hairs, like I don't know, it could be about anything. Yeah, let's see, I've just got glasses. I don't want to wear them. Yeah, so any of these are applicable inside of motherhood, outside of motherhood in groups. I've done a lot of these directives with my friends. I've done them with my husband. I've even done them with children because they're really fun. Yeah. So there you go, everyone, even if you're not having another child, you can definitely gain something from this. And something else you you've got that you've made, which you just shared with me before we went live is your I don't want to come to do a column tarot cards, or you call them Oracle Card, Oracle Card. Sorry, yeah, this is the ink and wings, Oracle deck, because you know, my art is magical. And it includes wings. So there you have it. So this is a deck of cards that is comprised of my artwork. And it is very, sort of spiritually rich, and it helps with insight and just gaining navigation for your for your life. I I pull cards almost every day and my kids love it. We pull cards for what you know what's gonna happen today, or what do I need to focus on right now? And it seems like it's always really spot on. I love doing my cards. I often do them overnight when about when I'm about to fall asleep. And I'll do the three card spreads. I will do like the past, present or future. And then other times just there'll be another card that's like poking its head out and like okay, yes, you obviously need to tell me something. And then I've just end up with like, all these. Oh, just one more, just one more. But yeah, I love them. We might. We might talk about them a bit later and possibly do a reading if you're up for that. Oh, yes. I would love to do a reading. That will be a first for the podcast to no one's ever done. I love it. It's always so fun when I do those because I'm like, is this gonna work? And then usually it kind of does. So we'll see if it works. We'll test it out. All right. Ready? Now you mentioned one of your children there when you said he was sorry, he or she I'm not sure was three months old when you started writing the book. Can you share a little bit more about your children? Yes. So my son is named Bridger. And he's nine. So he in this book are about the same age. I birthed them at the same time at the same time they birth myself as a new mom. So I have Bridger who's nine and I have Heidi who is six, and no more babies for me because my hands are so full with those. I can relate to that. So you said you you share your sort of experience with the oracle cards, you're obviously quite sort of open and communicative with the children and share a lot of your things you enjoy, I suppose. Are they into do some art. They do the artwork as well? Yes, yeah, we have set up a designated art space in our home. And so sometimes when it's a weekend and we have some extra time we get Really excited about having our time together. And I had a teacher in graduate school in my art therapy program that always said, you have to lay out your art materials like like you're in a candy store, so that they all just look so enticing, that you just can't wait to dive in. And so we keep our room like that in our home where everything has its place, and it's colorful, and the boxes are open, and you can see what's inside. So the kids will just go into the art space with me, and some days will paint some days will make a big mess, some days will, you know, be very, very tidy and neat. And we'll do collage, we'll do everything. And it is such amazing bonding time. Even my husband will join us sometimes. And he I don't think he identifies as being very creative. But I think he really enjoys it when he's there. What not what I would read it, yeah, and you just kind of get lost in the art process. And we do have, at the end of every year, we have a family vision board kind of ritual where we all go through collages and create imagery about what we want to bring into the next year. And so that has become something my husband has really enjoyed. And he actually invited his father to join us a couple of those years. And it was so fun just having the whole family make vision boards. And then you put up all our vision boards. And it's interesting to see what everyone wants that's similar or different and how they overlap and how they kind of coordinate. So when you had your daughter, then I don't want to say you breeze through it. But did you find it easier because you have those tools and you knew what you needed to do to incorporate your art to help you manage the transition to have? I think it was easier for me? Yes, I think having the tools was a big a big deal. And it really supported me. And also, I think it also helped me that I had already sort of stretched my life around one baby. And so I felt like, you know, there's no, there's no selfishness left, like might as well throw another one in here. While we're while we're the bottomless pit of caregiving. Yes, but it definitely was interesting to have art. When I had my daughter, my son was two and a half. And so he was active in the art process. So we would be able to make art together at that period, which was really a kind of neat thing. So that when the baby was, you know, nursing or sleeping, I had something to do with my son that actually benefited both of us. That's really important, isn't it? Because I feel like a lot of the time, pardon me, the the first child, depending on their age can sort of feel a little bit shafted, like there's a new baby here. And now I'm number two, and I don't like this, and then you can see the sort of perhaps some changes in behavior, you might not like putting it that way. But yeah, to be able to do that you keep your relationship really strong with him. And I guess to its, it allows him to realize that this new little person isn't a threat to him. So he's might be more anonymous and more accepting. But maybe I don't know, it sort of helps all of the three of you together to create, you know, a little unit as a three rather than a, it's me, it's mum time, or it's not my mom time, you know that that conflict? Right? Yes, the art can be sort of like a joining force. That's a really good word. Yes. That's really good word. I like that. I'm going to take that quote. Yes, go for it. I also think it's good with when when babies are around moms who are creative, then creativity is a normal part of life. And so it feels more accessible to the kids. It's like, if you grow up, you know, eating vegetables, then vegetables are just normal and you just eat them, right? It's the same thing with creativity and moms get to model that by their own creative process and the inclusion of their kids through that and sort of joining. Absolutely. And I think then as you as the kids get older, perhaps then realizing, seeing that deeper meaning behind the art, like sneaking into that art therapy sort of realm that it's not, I'm not just making marks on the paper. I'm not just painting I'm actually using this as a tool in my life, which is Powerful to give kids from a young age, isn't that, right? Because we all have this tool, even the people who identify as non creative, we are all creative if we tap into it, and if we allow ourselves to be and it's, it can be completely free, you can go make art with nature, it does not have to be expensive, it does not have to cost really anything. And so I think it's accessible. And a lot of us just forget, or a lot of people are really traumatized by their kindergarten art teachers. So I get a lot of clients who come in and they're like, I am not an artist, I'm not artistic. My kindergarten art teacher told me that I'm bad at art. So I haven't made art since. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's time for a corrective experience. Because art is about being expressive. It's about making, it's not about the end product. Yes, I'm really glad you said that, actually. Because as you were starting that conversation there, something came into my head and what you just said to completely confirmed it. I come from a background of working in childcare, I was in childcare for nine years. And our center had this really big philosophy about, we had this art room that was available all the time to any child of any age, or like the candy store, like everything was there, you could pick what you wanted to. And you didn't have to have an idea of what you're going to make before you went in, which I think is really important, because I think some people can be like, to the children. Now what are you going to make, it's like, well, you don't really no till you there and you're experimenting and experiencing, then something might come out. But then a lot of kindergartens and I know a lot of like early, maybe reception in new ones, teachers would have just like a cut out like a printed stencil, each child will get the exact same picture, maybe just say it's Christmas time and everyone's got to make a Christmas tree. And it all has to be green. And it all has to have the same things on it. And it all has to be folded the same way. And we used to have this poster up in our staff room, and it was like a picture of a child created a painting of whatever. And then it had this, you know, repetitive, exactly the same image. And it said, This is art, this isn't and it sort of helps you realize that it's not about the end product, it's not about having that whatever looking tree to give to Mum and Dad, it's about, you know, I always valued like you can see behind me, you might not be able to cause the sun, but I've got I put most of my kids paintings around the room. And a lot of them are just I have no idea what they are. Or they might be just some whatever's on a page, but I love them and I value them so much more than I value, you know, that stencil carbon copy, because I know that they haven't done that. That's the teacher's intention is to make everybody make the same thing. And I just think it's damaging to the little imaginations that want to run wild and be magical and be inventive. And maybe your tree has horns, maybe it's purple, maybe it has six trunks, you know, we need to be able to have that expressive freedom. Yeah, maybe it's not actually a tree, maybe it's a rocket ship. Or, again, if it was my chart, if you like you're picking up. Right. Right. And, and having a place where they can have, you know, the sky be the limit to their creative ability and capacity is so valuable for kids. Absolutely. And I think I've spoken about this with a lot of moms is that fear that we can have about and probably coming from our sort of, perhaps issues with control and having things done. Right and not having mess is it's really can be really challenging to set your children up with with paints and sit there and not freak out because it's going everywhere. And it's on them. And it might not be on the paper that can be quite challenging for for moms to get over as well. Yes, I think I tell moms who have that, that kind of issue with the messiness piece to go outside and make art in the grass or to have a designated set of clothing. That's art making clothing that we just don't worry about, or to put down a giant piece of tarp or a sheet that you don't care about so that you really you can let go of that. But it's also valuable for the mom to notice that that kind of anxiety around the mess, and to do her work around that too, because the art is actually helping her to see an area where she still needs healing. And so the art therapy is happening for her even if she's not the artist, she's the witness. But she she has a thing revealed. So it's notation back into herself. Hmm, that is so true, isn't it? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Two topics that I love to sort of delve into with my guests on this show. One is identity. And we've spoken briefly about that, but we'll talk about it more. And the other thing is mum guilt. How do you feel about that? I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I think most if not all, moms feel it. And I love that it is something that's out in the open as a real thing. So that it takes the shame out of it, if possible. And if you can name your experience of having mom guilt, I think just the power of naming it takes some of the charge out of it. But yeah, I think we, I mean, I think you're in a different culture than I am. But I think collectively, many cultures on our globe have these sort of predetermined rules and expectations and structures that mothers are supposed to fit into. And it really does us a disservice. Because it doesn't allow us to be who we are. And so that's a big reason why my jam is authenticity. Because I really, I want to see what, what is real for people. And if someone is inundated with guilt, about working a lot, or not working a lot, or not being creative or not lending baby food in their home, blender, whatever. I think it's really important that they not avoid that, and that they actually say, Gosh, I feel really ashamed and guilty that I'm feeding my kid food from a pouch instead of you know, homemade. And what's that about? Right? It's another example of how we can kind of turn the arrow back at ourselves, and really invite ourselves into inner work around. What is this guilt? What is it reflecting about me? Where did it come from? Maybe it's even a lineage pattern that has been alive for generations in my own family. And how many women in my family felt unsupported as mothers? I don't know, because they didn't talk about it until maybe this generation. That's so true, isn't it? And I feel like because we're all talking about it, it takes the sting out of it a bit. You don't have to feel guilty for feeling guilty. You know, for one of a better description, it's, you know, it exists. I hate it. I think it's a load of, I hate it so much. I wish it didn't exist, but and I think that's why I like talking about it, because the more we talk about it, you know, like I said, it, it takes a feel like it takes the power out of it. Because once it's named, it's almost like I don't know, I'm trying, I had this thought come through my head, like, you know, like, if it's a monster, it doesn't exist, but it scares you. But then you discover that it exists. And then you realize it's actually doesn't have power over you. I don't know, that's a really long pole to try. And I've been watching a lot of Avengers lately. Like you said it, you'd name it, you own it, and then you can do the work on and it doesn't hold that control power fear over you because you like facing it head on and, and doing something about it. Yes, I think even though so many moms are now talking about mom guilt in a way that's really supportive and compassionate, there still is a huge part of the world that isn't talking about it. And that's laying those old narratives on motherhood. So I think it's really important for moms to find their people who can support them, and who can align with the type of authenticity that lets you feel guilty and supports you in your guilt and helps you to not feel alone and to work through it. Because if you're an authentic person, in an inauthentic system, it's gonna feel really invalidating and it's gonna, it's gonna crush you in you're not going to continue to express that because it's, it's not being validated. You just have to feel like you're pushed down. Yeah, that's really important. Isn't it about finding, finding the people that share your views? And have that, again, that authenticity? It's keep coming back to that word, but it's so true, isn't it? Yes. And I think there's a lot there about aligned relationships. You know, people like the buzzwords like toxic relationships, or that person's a narcissist or whatever. But if you just take all the labels away, and it's just about alignment or misalignment, you know, it doesn't make anyone bad or wrong. It just makes them misaligned with you. So then you go find your people who you can be more aligned with so that you have that congruence. See and that feeling of resonance when you're with people who actually see you and support you for who you are not for some charade that you're pretending to uphold. Yeah. Pardon me? That is That is so true. What sort of role do you feel like social media has to play in all this sort of guilt driving and judgment sort of thing? I think it's kind of the both sides of the coin, I think you can find that support and that authenticity. I think there's people like you and like me who are on social media trying to spread this compassion and this authenticity. And I think you can easily get down the rabbit hole of really narrow minded, rigid thinking that is related to old narratives and a lot of guilt and shame. So I think you have to be discerning with social media. Yeah, it's that same thing, as in real life is in finding those people, finding your tribe, and following the people that you don't allied with. Right, yeah. And I also think it's important to remember that what you see on social media isn't always the truth. It's hardly ever the truth. So it's everyone that you see on social media is smiling with their new baby, and they look so happy. I think it's important to remind yourself like, maybe that's partially true. But what am I not seeing about what's hard for this person, and just know that the snapshots on Facebook or Instagram are just snapshots there, they don't have depth of reality. And if you want more depth of reality, find real live humans to go spend time with instead of social media feeds. Yeah, that's really, really good advice. Because there are a lot of rabbit holes to fall down into, on social media. I find in terms of unfollowing, I'll go through phases where I felt I'll be on a different sort of tracks or follow a lot of people in that sort of area. And then all of a sudden, one day, I'll just go, Ah, no, I don't want that anymore. And I will just go through and unfollow, unfollow, and then another day, I'll find something. It's really interesting how you like, depending how your thoughts have evolved, you know, maybe you've been surrounding yourself with people that have allowed you to see things in a different way or opens your mind to a different way of thinking and then you go, Oh, actually, that stuff doesn't feel right anymore. You know, it's there's nothing wrong with doing that. Yes, that's clearing, right? So when we grow and we learn new things, we see the world through a new way, we naturally need to let go of what no longer aligns, so that we can create space for what does align, because you can't just fill yourself and your social media feed endlessly, you have to clear to let in. I once heard, I've had a few readings with psychic mediums over the years. And one of my favorites, he told me, you only have a certain amount of room in your backpack. So you know, you have to take out things sometimes to be able to fit those new things in. So I sort of use that sort of visual analogy that, you know, you can only carry so much. I love that. And it's important to be discerning. Yeah, absolutely. The other topic about identity and you touched on it. When you were talking about writing your book when your son was three months old. Let's just talk about that a bit more. So that shift that we go through. And I everyone feels this differently, too, which is awesome. Which, you know, we talked about earlier, everyone's motherhood journey is so different. Personally, the feelings you were feeling, can you sort of share a bit more about that? About what felt hard at that time? Yeah. And I guess about how, if you felt like, you know, your previous say, your previous self, you're still the same person. But, you know, you were changing into this, this mother role. How that sort of felt that transition? Oh, yes. Well, I think what made it so hard was that it was so abrupt that you know, during pregnancy, I was so happy. I loved with both of my pregnancies. It felt like an immensely spiritual experience. I felt like a vessel I felt like oh my gosh, like if the aliens could see how we make people they would be amazed. It's just so it's incredible. So even when I felt nauseous or, you know, when I was 30 pounds heavier than I was used to being, I was like, This is amazing. Yeah, I had such a great experience. And then, right at the end of my pregnancy with my son with my firstborn, our midwife found out that he was breech. And they were like, Oh, well, we're gonna have to flip this baby. And I'm like, what is that a thing. And so I tend to get very urgent about, like, when something is abnormal, medically, I just have my own anxiety triggers around health and medical stuff. And so I was like, Okay, we gotta flip this baby. And it pregnancy stopped being enjoyable, and it started feeling stressful. And I kid you not, I read somewhere that I was supposed to do a handstand and go upside down in a swimming pool to turn my baby. So if you can imagine someone at eight months pregnant, like trying to do a handstand, in the swimming pool, in like, community swimming pool with all of these people, it was humiliating. But I was so committed, I'm like, You're gonna turn this baby. Like, it didn't work, you know, it's such a silly thing. And so I tried that I did Chinese Chinese medicine called moxibustion. And I was, it's like this little, like a charcoal lit charcoal thing that you put close to a chakra. And it energetically is supposed to help, whatever it didn't do it. But what it did do is it triggered labor. And so I went into labor, just in this really stressful state of being like, my baby's not coming out the way I want my baby to come out. So that went into a birth, that was a cesarean after I was really attached to the idea of a vaginal birth. And then my baby was born with a bilateral pneumothorax, which is a puncture in each of his lungs. And so he had to go to NICU and we didn't get to bond. And I didn't get to hold him. And I was like, strapped down on a table with a open surgical wound. And it was just so different than what I envisioned. And so I was set up for motherhood, like with this trauma. And so I think, I actually think now, you know, nine years later, I look back and I'm like, Well, I learned my first lesson of motherhood, right off the bat, that I'm not in control of everything anymore. And my rigid thinking and my attachment to what I want and how I want it needs to soften and it needs to be more flexible. And so that was probably the hardest transition for me was that it was just this very abrupt sort of message that was in my face, like you are not in control. And you have got to learn how to be more flexible. Just while you're saying that I'm getting goosebumps, because that literally feels like the message that I was given. similar sort of, you know, I had all these expectations I had my first baby was a vaginal birth, but he was very quick. So I had this idea that this time my waters would break, everything would be, you know, planned and go to nap, we had a very traumatic scenario. And same thing, he was a, he was very tiny. But he, he was fully developed. But he was very tiny. Because it turned out my placenta had stopped working after 26 weeks, and no one don't know how no one discovered it. So then he was away from me for a while. So I had this, I just kept like, right from the beginning, he had to have formula. So that control I had in my last, my last baby, that I had to feed him against all odds, I was going to feed this child that was taken away from me. So it was like, Okay, you are really not in control of this. And you you're being forced to let go of these, you know, these beliefs that you are holding on to. And then when I got him back, I just had these, I just kept hearing in my head, just keep him close, keep him close. So I would just sit and hold him and nurse him and he'd sleep and I'd miss him. And it just was completely different to my first child. And I'm so glad that I was thrown all those curveballs because it just made me completely relaxed and and go, there is no routine, there is no predictability. And I was happy with that. And it was weird because I've never been happy with that. Like when I was five years old, on my first gig performing on stage, it was just at a school Christmas concert. The teacher held the microphone for me and she wasn't holding it in the right spot. So I pulled it closer. You know, this has been me my whole life. It's good. Try it Hmm, yeah, very suddenly and violently, and traumatically. That was all taken away from me. And I'm so grateful for that. Now, you know, in hindsight, the lessons that I've learned, although at the time was pretty full on that, you know, I've always, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. It's amazing, isn't it? Because I save the children choose us for the lessons we have to learn in this life. So it's prevalent? Yeah, I think we choose our families. So talking more about yourself in the work that you're doing? Can you share what you've sort of got coming up or anything you want to share about the work that you're doing? Yes, I actually have a huge movement that I am in right now with my business, I am in the process of transforming my private therapy practice into a large scale mental health platform called the Radiant Life project. And the Radiant Life project is all about helping people find that radiance, and that glow. That is part of our human birthright. But we forget, and we get stuck in our mental illnesses, and we get stuck on autopilot. And so this is about really getting unstuck, whether you're a mother, whether you're not a mother, whether you're a man or a woman, or non binary, anyone, this is about lighting your life up from the inside out and feeling full and resourced. Not without challenges in your life, but with the challenges and feeling empowered to live as a whole person. So I have a new book that I'm working on, that's almost ready to go to publishing called the Radiant Life project. And it's a big download of my 15 plus years of clinical experience, plus some of my own personal journey. And I've also got some courses coming up that will be available on my website. And I'll be offering retreats and workshops that are all geared toward helping people build a radiant life. Wow, that sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you. That's fantastic. Thank you, I am so excited by it, I actually took a three month sabbatical from my therapy practice because I got really burned out working sort of on the frontlines as a mental health person in the pandemic. And I thought I was just going to spend my sabbatical like curled up in bed watching movies, but actually, I have felt so energized and so excited about the Radiant Life project that I am just writing, and building and creating and making art and talking to people like you and it feels, talk about alignment, it feels very aligned. That's wonderful. I can just see your face like literally radiant, as you told me about it. It's just wonderful. Thank you. So share with us, what's the name of your website where people can best find you and find out more information. Yes, the website is the Radiant Life project.com. And you can also follow me on Instagram at the Radiant Life project. I'm I'm posting reels every other day with little therapeutic tidbits and kind of helpful, helpful little gems for people. And I have a free newsletter that I'm sending out once a month that gives inspirations and little offerings and keeps people up to date with my new releases and the progress of my book. So if you want to be part of my mailing list, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website, which is the Radiant Life project.com And that's probably the best way to reach me. Awesome. I'm glad you mentioned about your Instagram because I do enjoy your reels. And there's something very soothing about your voice too. I must say when you're sharing you know little tips about I think one was how you had to give a good apology like the three steps and there was another one about boundaries that I really liked. But the way you present them is just so it makes To stop scrolling and just go, ah, like, it's just so calming. And I don't know really connective, if that's not the word, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, again, it feels like you're right there, you're talking, you're talking to me. And you're saying, Allison, this is this is a thing you should be listening to. Thank you. That is my intention. And I am trying to, I'm trying to give away free support for people and Instagram as a great resource for people. And so I really am, you know, these aren't like promotional videos that I'm trying to hook people, I'm really just trying to give away knowledge that people can use to support themselves. Because the Radiant Life project is not about using anyone else as a crutch or expecting anyone else to rescue you. It's about doing it from the inside out. And, and being so radiant, that it extends through and beyond you and affects the world. Absolutely. We need to sit there about doing the work yourself. And there's no one's going to do it for you. When I was in the real depths of my postnatal depression, with my second child, I had that exact feeling I had, and it was incredibly daunting, and scary. But on the other hand, it was so empowering, it was like, no one can help me, and a fearful thing, but then it was like, Uh, no one can help me because I'm capable of doing this, I can do this. So it was like, flicking the switch. It's, it's scary, when you know, you've got to do it yourself. And when you're not in a great place, you know, in your own head, they can feel like the worst news in the world. Like, literally, you want someone to save you, you want someone to fix you. But working with someone like yourself, you know, a trained professional, you will have assistants, but at the end of the day, it is you that goes deep inside you and changes, you know, whether it's, you know, the habits or the way you think about you yourself, think about the world, all that sort of stuff is on you. And I think I learned that during my sabbatical it, it took me 15 years of clinical practice to realize that, oh, I don't want these people to need me, I want these people to not need me. Yo, now I'll be going back to this Radiant Life project with the new perspective of I'm here as a guide and as a supportive resource. But ultimately, this is your show. This is your life. So reclaim it. Yeah, let's see. So well said I love that. And also just a point I wanted to mention, you are trained and experienced, like you said, 15 years of clinical experience, it really annoys me when I see people on Instagram sprouting out do this, do that, whatever. And they know they have none of that. So just to point out the you actually know things. Thank you. You're right, there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. So make sure you know as people are being discerning about aligned relationships and the right resources, make sure that the support that you receive is from credible places. All right, well, I'll let you lead the way, Kate with this reading using your beautiful deck. Okay, thank you. So what I always do with this is, I just want the cards to know that this is for you and not me. So I just sort of say to the cards. This is a reading for Alison. Okay, so would you like to stick with your your three card? Pull? You do whatever feels right over there. But I'm gonna leave it up to you. Do you have any specific questions or any specific? Anything that's on your mind that you're curious about? Look, I'd like to just know that where I'm at right now I'm actually feeling because I see my full disclosure, I see my therapist monthly. So I do a lot of work. And I feel like right at this moment in time, I actually had a mental health check with my doctor this morning. And you know, we have this thing over here called a I think it's called K 10. And you check, no, based on the last four weeks, have you experienced different emotions or situations. And mine was the lowest score I think it's ever been ever so right now I'm going really good. So I guess I just like, you know, some feedback on that, I suppose. Yes, that's perfect. How about like, why are you feeling so well? What's working? Yeah, And what are some areas of? Oh, I got it. Okay, what's working? What is an area of growth that you can work through now that you have so much strength? And I'm wondering if maybe there was something to let go of now. So maybe I'll pull three. Yep, that sounds awesome. Okay, so the first one is Why are you feeling so good? Okay, and the second one is what area of growth feels accessible now that you're so resourced? Okay, and the third one is, what can you let go of? What do you no longer need? All right. So I'll give you these three. And then if we need an additional minute, sometimes we need one more card. So we'll see. So why are you feeling so good. This is the card that I pulled. And this is the card of companionship, this is a relational card. And for you, this could mean anything from like, either not being codependent, like just coexisting peacefully with people or it could mean that you have a new kind of support or a connection that's really sustaining and filling you up. But this is about kind of like peaceful coexistence and relationships. Yeah. And I'll screenshot these these cards and put them in the show notes for everyone. But it's, it's a pair of Dragon is it to dragonflies and flowers, and then color that is my color, that background? That's like that aqua, sort of It's a mixture between throat chakra and the heart chakra. It's kind of that that really beautiful Aqua. Love that. That's beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Okay, so number two, now that you're in a strong place, what work can you do? So this is the card that's about being both rooted, and also free. So the work now is kind of working with this binary that you don't have to be so grounded that you don't fly, and you don't have to be so airy, that you're ungrounded. So the work now is about having both Hmm. It's finding that balance, isn't that? Which kind of Yeah, you should, one sorry to cut you off. I'm usually one way or the other, I made the Full Tilt one way or nothing. So this card is telling you that now that you're in such a strong place in your life, it's time for you to kind of have a fusion of Mind Body Spirit, and not be only in one or the other. Yep, yeah. So where can you can you describe that? That beautiful picture? Fairly? Yes. So this is a an image of a figure that has sort of golden energy coming in through the crown chakra at the top of their head and moving through the body, and actually growing roots that reach down into the earth all the way down to sort of the molten lava core where there are pure crystalline energies and resources. And the figure also has large wings that are open and expanding and kind of taking off. Yeah, I have a thing with wings, we fly with feathers, I collect a lot of flat Earth, this flower girl articulates a lot of flowers, too. But wings is a big thing for me. Yes, I also love wings, well, then you're gonna like this one, too. So your third part, which is about what to let go of. This is an image that's about like magical thinking, this is about I think what this message is, is that you should let go of the sort of spiritual bypassing of avoiding things by being too kind of too spiritual, and not actually facing what's real. There is magic in the world. And there is spirituality in the world. And we can also use them as avoidance mechanisms. So I think that this card is asking you to release that. Hmm, that definitely makes sense. I love how you're, you're female, I guess presuming it's a female figure there has got the wing on one side. And then it's sort of like it's reality, and, and sort of the spiritual world sort of shining one figure and if that makes sense, and the columns and it's similar to your second card with sort of a feeling of grounding, but also flying at the same time. And I think that's part of the message with With when you don't want to let go of all of your magic, you don't want to let go of your spirituality that's important. You just want to let go of the parts that are keeping you from doing the work you need to do. Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like I can use it as a justification to avoid things. I think you just said that. Yeah. Yes. John Wellwood has a term called spiritual bypassing. And it is just all about how we use spirituality to avoid things. And it's not that's not a healthy use of spirituality. Yeah. I love that. So do you need do you need another car? Do you feel like there's any anything lingering? No, I don't actually, I feel like that's, that's actually incredibly spot on. That's, and it's really not, I've always felt really reassured after having cards pulled like, it just feels like a nice warm hug from the universe. And, you know, there's, there's never, I don't know, all the all the decks I've ever read. If they want to tell you, you know, to improve on something, it's always in a kind way, you know, they're never gonna pound you on the head with a with a horrible, you know, mean thing. But you know, they're looking after. So if there's things I need to say, they'll tell us, you know? Yes, I talk about it as like the shadow side and the sunny side where everything has the shadow like Carl Jung talked about in his in his groundbreaking psychological work. But there's a dark side to everything. But there's also a bright side to everything. And if you can find the place where you can hold both and glean the gifts from both than that's like holistic, balanced living, right is not getting too lost in the shadows or too blinded by the light. It's getting that union the Yang sort of just it's balanced. Yes. Balance. Yes. Oh, look, thank you. That is just, ah, I feel very special. And everyone listening, you should feel special, because that's the very first time we've ever had a reading on the podcast. So thank you, Kate, for sharing that with us. You're welcome. And you'll be can people purchase your cards from your website as well? Yes. So at the Radiant Life project.com There's a page where you can purchase the deck, you could purchase the book, the authentic Mother, you can also purchase prints of my artwork. Oh, lovely. Excellent on thank you I have just had a such a lovely morning chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just so welcome. I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Bethany Kingsley - Garner UK ballerina S3 Ep86 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley-Garner, a ballerina from the UK and mother to her 18 month old daughter.. Bethany was born in Devon, England and moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined Scottish Ballet in 2007, was promoted to Soloist in 2013, and to Principal in 2016. She has been there ever since. She was first drawn to dancing through the music, her mother would play Classic FM at home and she recalls as a 3 year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copy her. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the Wyre Drawer company leavers prize, as well as the April Oldrich Award for Most Dynamic Performer and receiving First Commendation and Young British Dancer of the Year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 productions, from Swan Lake to The Nutcracker, and recent performances of The Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US of The Crucible, in the role of Elizabeth Proctor. She's also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Bethany - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Throughout this episode you'll hear music from various popular ballet procductions, used with permission thanks to my APRA AMPOS licence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in today. It's such a pleasure to have you. I've been feeling a bit under the weather so I've been putting off recording this intro to haven't had much of a voice. But today, I'm feeling pretty good. My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley Garner. Bethany is a ballerina from the UK and a mother to an 18 month old daughter. Bethany was born in Devon in England and she moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined the Scottish ballet in 2007 and was promoted to soloist in 2013 and two principal dancer in 2016. She has been there ever since. Bethany was first drawn to dancing through the music. Her mother would play classic FM at home, and she recalls as a three year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copier. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the wire drawer company leaders prize as well as the APR which award for most dynamic performer and receiving first commendation and young British Dancer of the year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 Productions, from Swan Lake to the Nutcracker, and recent performances of the Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US presenting the crucible in the role of Elizabeth proctor. Bethany has also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Throughout this episode, you'll hear music from various popular ballet productions, which I can use thanks to my APRA amcos Mini online licence. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you Bethany. It's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hi, thank you for Gabby God, I'm excited to speak to you because in in whole time I've been doing this a couple of years. I've only had one other. I'm not gonna say ballerina because I don't think that do you like to be called a ballerina? I can be called ballerina you can be okay because I had a principal dancer from the Australian ballet. And she didn't want to be called a ballerina. She just want to be called principal dancer. So I've had two ballet dancers on my podcast now which is really exciting. So we're about to you at the moment to paint a picture for the listeners. I'm currently in Scottish ballet HQ, which is in Glasgow in Scotland. And we are back in our studios. We are mid tour of the strangeling at the moment so we are leaving to Newcastle today. Oh wow. Literally in the thick of it right now. Yeah, we're nearly at the end. We started about two months ago so we are we're close to the end and we had 74 shows of The Snow Queen this year. Holy moly. Is that how many days a week he performing that so we have a performances Wednesday to Saturday and there's three double show days. Where houses Batson that I mean this is the thing I discovered. Data Stephenson who As the other ballerina I've had on the show, she blew my mind with how much work you guys do like not just the performance, but then all of the rehearsing. And then like you rehearsing probably new shows while you're performing. The show the doing it was like, blew my mind. How are we on the show on the road? We don't stop then making it better or rehearsing or keeping the stamina up. So yesterday, I still rehearsed for Newcastle this week, even though I've done how many shows? Yeah, keeping it fresh, keeping it in the body? Tell us how you first got into dancing. How did you get first into the ballet music? Yeah, it was my mom used to play classic FM at home. And I remember even from the age of about three or four. So my first memories of just feeling something in my veins in my DNA and wanting me to move almost out of my control. And that was I guess the start of me developing into the ballerina I am today. So I was had a very supportive family who supported me all the way through that journey. And I went to the Royal Ballet School in London, at 11. And now I can't even imagine being a mother. That kind of pain that my family went through, but they knew that that's what I wanted to do. And I graduated with honours in 2007. And then I came straight to Scottish ballet. But it was a really beautiful journey. I had an I had a lovely time. I had a lot of time at boarding school. I think it's when you're around people that love this art form and around people have the same interest. And that really makes it because before when you're kind of a normal primary school, you're juggling both you're doing academic you may be any two in your year group that like to dance. So all of a sudden you're put into this world of the whole year group doing all together so that was really lovely. And you wouldn't have those outside distractions to you'd be like supremely focused on that you want to attend. I mean, I'm extremely homesick especially for the first time I say three to maybe four years. But something kept me there. Something in my you know, my heart my soul. I remember counting down the days before the weekend. Every night but I once I was into it, I was fine. Yeah, so we're about the suit was you're like Where were your family in relation to where were you in in you being in London. So they are in the south country. So in Devon, so it's around a drive around three hours drive. And very different countryside beaches, very rural. And then kind of you're in the centre of what especially the Upper School of London, you're in Covent gardens, you're already in the hustle and bustle. So two very contrasting worlds. Hey, just Well, you've mentioned Devon is that I went to London many years ago and we caught a train. I'm not very good with this geography. It was a place called pool is that anywhere is that we're even further down so right at the very bottom you've got Cornwall and then Devon so it's really the bottom of Southwest. Yeah, right. Is it got like big cliffs and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I can I can visualise I reckon. I think it might be a popular place for people like making movies and stuff and TV shows because I swear I've seen I've Googled it before and I would have done yeah, did you so you live you've lived up in Scotland since you joined by going on to my my 17th season next year with squid. That's my that's awesome. Wow. And I noticed you haven't really picked up an accent. No, I really haven't. I my husband's Scottish and he's quite roared. No, I really haven't. Maybe because it's still I'm still surrounded by not, you know, in our work environment. We don't have really broad Scottish accents and maybe that's why on the webpage for the Scottish ballet, your, your your page that features you, there's this amazing photo of you, which I if you'll let me I want to share with the listeners in the in a link. You just like it's black and white. And you've like got wings as part of your costume and you're like, you look like this bird of prey, basically. And you've got these massive beautiful eyes like really dark makeup diamonds on Oh, it's just stunning. It's just like, whoa, was that for role was that for like a photoshoot? That that was for the role of the self and Matthew Barnes Highland fling. Wow, I'm gonna have to read to you. I actually made it. You know, I was jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, right? You try and just kind of using my arms like wings, and they and they got the perfect. Oh, it's just unreal. I was just, and it like, it like slaps you in the face. When you come on to your why'd you like, Wow, that's incredible. So, as part of your dancing, I guess in addition to the music and the costumes, there's quite a lot of acting. And like detail encompassing the character? Do you really enjoy that side of it as well, I love that. There's not, I don't believe there are many jobs out there where you can actually transform into someone else for you know, a few hours and become that kind of emotional connection. And emotive and then come out of it and go in character in there. And I guess be a mom. That's what makes you into your kind of your depth character as well. You keep digging deeper into roles, especially now that I'm on my, you know, going into my 17 season. There's roles that I've done before. So that's nice to keep coming back as now I feel completely different to how I felt, you know, a few years ago. Yeah, absolutely. Before we start talking about you, your transition to motherhood, I really want to ask, do you have like some particularly favourite roles that you've played over the years. So the most challenging is probably Swan Lake. And I think that dancers love a challenge and the physical challenge. But also, it's one that you just feel like you have left everything on the stage. So you could almost walk off and you could see your blood, sweat and tears line there. So you really give everything one that's very close is the Snow Queen what we're doing at the moment, I was part of the creation process three years ago. And it just has a real special place in my heart and I feel otherworldly when I perform it really, really connected to the work. Yeah, that's cool. Do you find with Swan Lake, do you feel any sort of pressure because people know it so well? Like your audience has probably seen it or heard of it before? Do you feel that pressure to? I don't know, live up to maybe people's expectations? Probably not cracker. I actually feel that everyone knows music. Yep. But no, actually, I didn't feel that was Swan Lake. I felt very much I am. This is this one I'm going to be? Yeah, I felt empowered with that. Yeah, you bring your own and your own take on I guess. I have a daughter Elizabeth, who is 18. She's 18 months where? So how did it go then? And I'm just going back to I guess the previous conversation I've had had with Jana that you can feel so much pressure as a dancer that your career is going amazing. And it's usually at that same time is when you're in your childbearing years. So it's often a real pool of what do you choose to do? I guess Did you feel anything like that when you're thinking about having your daughter? No. Maybe I'm on the I'm on the other end. I feel that I'm the it for now. So maybe I left it to a point where I felt as if I had reached a certain level in my career. There's no you never go into thinking about having a child. Knowing that you'll definitely come back? I think because you don't know. So I think that probably had more of an impact on me, then, kind of where I was. I mean, it was very quick for me to feel that I knew I wanted to come back. But I always had that had, at the back of my heart, in my mind, be prepared to have something else in your, you know, ready. If this wasn't the life you wanted with your family. Did that did that sort of bring you a lot of sadness, thinking that you might not go back to dancing was that like a really big decision to sort of, to think that that might happen? I feel that I will never not want to do it. Because it's part of who I am. It's, it's in my, you know, I've mentioned, it's in my DNA. That's how that's how I feel. But I know that I would like to do something else. And I look back, and I feel extremely proud of this length of career and what I've given it so far, there will always be sadness, because it's something that you've dedicated your life to. But now as a mother of it's, I feel it lated now and so much love for another another life also, huh? Yeah. Did you have it in your head? Right from the start that you try and come back? I guess it did things go well, then that you're able to come back when you want to I had about, I talked to my director and I had about five different scenarios. ABCD and you know, all because, you know, respectfully, they're also running a business. So for a principal dancer to dip out for a long period of time, I'd always want to let them know. Roughly when they're thinking about the planning and, and everything we actually did go with Plan A, which was very surprised. But I had, I think the smooth the birth was ever so smooth. Yeah, the recovery was very smooth. So that all went into factors. But you you know, you have no idea. You need that many different scenarios, because each step of the way something can happen. emotional implications of when you're suddenly there with your child have the thought about going back to work, huh? Yeah, yeah. All those all those things, but I, I never really stopped moving. Even when, when I was she was home and maybe two weeks, I had her in the sling rocking, I used to sign on to, you know, some ballet classes from home and just enjoy that movement. And that bonding time with her. I was sharing that world that life. She was now in it with me. And that was lovely. Now that's That is awesome. And I think like, a lot of the moms I have on the show. They like you that you have something that you love so much. Like you just think you've got to keep doing it. You know, it's just part of you and you couldn't you couldn't really imagine not doing it and you sort of find ways to keep doing it and make adjustments you know, now that you're a mother she obviously knows that. I was a dancer. Yeah, she died when she was a few weeks old in my tummy when I was doing class, but yeah, she does. Yeah, she's always by my side. So we are a touring company. So she tours with me. And it's actually quite nice because we kind of get a little bit more time on tour on my hours or less with performing so I'm kind of not in the you know, in the studio all day and she comes to the theatre she may be watching the end of class laughs I take her on stage to watch a show. And that's just things like that, you know, I was sat with her on the set of snowpine. It's got a beautiful throne. And at that moment, when you're in the performance, you're sat there looking into a piece of ice. Just about to do the last part of the really tough on your point, you're really tired. And I had her with me sat there, and we just had a picture. And I was showing her the throne. She was playing with the fare on it. And now I'm on stage and I'm sat there and that's my memory. I have almost I can smell her. And it gives me so much strength. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I got goosebumps when you talk about that. Like, it's it's beautiful. Like, she's literally part of that world. Like, yes, she's there. Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Do you feel like it's important to you that she sees what you're doing? Like, I mean, I guess at her age, she hasn't got this concept of perhaps identity, the way we construct in our minds, but she's not, you're not just her mom, you have a life where you do things just on your own. I'm always knew. And you know, very much the same path as Stewart, my husband as well, that we wanted her to come in to our life. But in a way our life is how it is. Because it's the happy it's working. It's full of love. And I was quite strong on having that connection of who I am in the ballet world in the studio, that she was also in it. I think it's not a great territory when you try and keep them to separately. Because it, I find that I have no kind of stresses or worries, because if I need to have her here, then I'll bring her if I need to step away, then I will go and I think it's taking that control and that's that's my family life and that will come first. So you're talking about you're a touring company. So how far away do you go? Like what sort of an average tour I suppose an average tour is not too far. It's about the weekend at the Scottish main cities like Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, and then we come further down south to Newcastle. But we are going to America next year where she will be coming. So that'll be fun for that flight. Yeah, so we do we tour about three times a year. So that's like kind of our main bulk everything. Yeah. And then the rest of the time you rehearsing. Always rehearsing and we're seeing ballet class. Oh, yeah. That's unreal, isn't it? Do you? Do you sometimes think about your life and think this is amazing that I get to do what I love so much. Like do you have those moments where you just, I think like when I put my bike tights on in the morning, I think this is bizarre. Like it's sometimes you know, when I look around the room at people early in the morning doing doing a play is weird but wonderful world that it's just acceptable to be wearing lycra all day. And feel comfortable in it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, there's no judgement. like to talk to all my moms on the show about this concept of mom guilt, and I put that in air quotes, because I know some people don't feel it and that's awesome. And then others have issues and struggles with it, but I wanted to know what your thoughts were about it. My first emotionals reaction to feeling that I wouldn't be with her all the time was when. I mean, we actually had to put her in her own room. We knew It was time. And it was I was by her crib, she'll bedside crib and just crying for so long. The thought of her being on her own three steps away from me was, you know, heartbreaking. And I guess that's the kind of the process isn't it of finding the independence between mother and child. But that was a huge I really was. I guess it took me a little bit of surprise how physical I reacted to that feeling of just of just pushing her having her own space to sleep. Which she absolutely loved. So it was totally on me. Nothing on her. Yeah, she was fine. Then, when I first went to the theatre I had been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm gonna be back the smell of the side stage, the laying out my changing room. And I was in the car. I left it so my husband say that she would have been asleep. It was late in the evening, we had dinner and I gave my first dress rehearsal. And out just out of nowhere in the car. The tears tears came. And it was I stopped for a minute and thought is this is this? What you want to do? Is this right for her? Is this right for the family everything. And it was just it was all our I was the only one feeling there. You know, she was touched up at home. And I knew that then when I went back the next day. Well, she would when she broke up. I would have felt so good. That I was I managed to do both in a in a way that was still no one lost out except for maybe my emotions, but I would take that for anything. Yeah, I think that's how I kind of just constantly going back thinking okay, is this life is this spy world? Is this job working for the family? Is it making us happy and, and loving? And are she getting? We're getting the most time together? And it always comes back to Yes. So the feelings I'm feeling it and you just take the brunt don't you? Just go I take it. Yeah, yeah, that's that. That's that's really good. Because I feel like there's no escaping. There's no escaping that emotional pool. There's no escaping that. And then I think it's like gorgeous. Yes. I mean, it's what makes us a mother, isn't it? You know? But then it's that next step of like, you could have turned around and gone back home that night, you know, in the car. Oh, yeah. But it's like that what we do next? That's that's our beat. Then we go ride a lot. And like you said, we were that that emotional pain. We go oh, that, you know, you're but then we go on? And we do and like you said you felt you knew you were gonna feel amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny old thing that that mom guilt, isn't it? Someone said, there's a lady I had on the show. I can't remember who it was now. So apologies. But she she had this idea that mom guilt was this. It was a innate ingrained thing from biological evolution that basically made us not forget the child, you know, like, it was just, you know what I mean? Like, it was just something that had to be in us to make us you know, not leave it out, where it could be endangered, you know, in, I don't know, in the caveman days or something, you know, like something like that? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. The another thing I like to really chatter about is the changes in our own identity when when we become a mom. How did you cope with that? Now, I'm a very different person, but I didn't see that I didn't feel the change, it just happened. And the differences is I definitely know who I am. I think when you go through something that's like a child. And it's you're just giving everything and you're not thinking it's not you in that moment. It's not you in that time, it's you're giving you reach a point in your life. But you know, the people which have been able to have this amazing thing happened to them. Very rarely are you at that point where you would do anything? You're doing everything to have a this dispersed. And just, I think more I use the word empowered, but not in a way of Yeah, gritty. Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's in a way of mothering, of embodied and gathering, I feel the strength from everything that I'm, I'm doing, I can arrive at work, and I've been up to six hours, just silly things, but it makes you feel like, okay, I'm a, I'm okay, today, I'm what you knows is everything settled and happy. And so that's how I feel, and nothing to lose, I now have nothing to lose. For myself for her and, yeah, no, I love that. That's really that's really cool way of putting it. So before we talked about, that, you've done a couple some roles that you've done more than once. And I wanted to take you back to that about him. You said how when you're at different stages in your life? Have you had any sort of times where you've been very conscious of the fact that now that you are a mother that you approach the rolls differently? Or is it just something that happens with time? So I didn't prep you for this one. Um, my first season back, I did the ballet called My scandal at Milan. And I play two roles. And one of the roles was a bride that actually was a you know, it was a bedroom scene, but it was extremely rough and violent. And this is my first season that year after. So I felt a lot more in tune of where I was being touched, right. And whereas pre birth, I guess, physically, I would have just ran into that not even second, and then it was cool. Oh, yeah, it was a little bit more tentative. I wasn't in my own skin yet. Now I am. But this unit, you're talking maybe seven months after? So you're really like, is my leg coming with me? Or is it still on the other side of the room? On the floor today, or are they going to be touching like it was really sort of, but I had heart and soul in it. But yeah. So physically, that's, I'm not as carefree as I was with my body. Letting maybe awesome fight or flight mode. I'm a bit nervous being lifted. Never used to. Yeah. But now I have something to seriously not get injured for. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Is it bigger? There's a bigger picture. Somebody gets scared of flying or you know, height. And it's that similar thing of, I'm a bit more careful with myself. That's a really that's a really cool observation, isn't it? Yeah. Because I guess if you weren't in the inner city ration where you were really shocked around and you might not ever notice the basic things like when you're crossing the road by yourself or when you're crossing the road with your child. You're very different. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, can I make the lights off? Nope. We're gonna wait for the Green Man. Yeah, I think it's that similar thing. But she was in me, even though she wasn't in the studio at the time, just as I was getting back. So that's the main shift I found out, huh? Yeah, I thought that's really cool. There's a lot of us that may or may not be able to relate to that. Because it's the level of physicality that some of us may or may not have. But that's a really cool observation. I really liked that. I also wanted to ask, how did you find, you know, when you're pregnant, and you get that, like, I can't think what the thing is. It's like elastin or something happens in your hormones release these. What's it called? relaxing? Relaxing? Yeah. Did that change your your body heat, and it took so long to go? Yeah, right. So where I think you just feel more gooey. But you know, you're carrying you want, you don't want the body to be whole, stiff, you want it to be looser, I felt a lot at the back of my knees. So when we straighten things, normally, they would kind of lock and I had so much still in it still, when I was back that seven months that my legs were a bit like chicken legs, they were still sort of rebounding back. Yeah. And structurally, physically, you know, my physical shape has changed, probably not to, you know, an audience member. But to my own, maybe the people closest around me. It's that hip structure. It's the the widening the ribcage, you know, when you go through something like breastfeeding. It's the more broad you get in there. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. And that's yeah, and being doing something that you you're so aware of your body, it'd be interesting to to see those little nuance changes. And yeah, I did a lot of them. I worked with my physio through the whole time. But just that was really interesting. Just working on things like my turnout. So you know, in dance, classical ballet, the main thing is we have to rotate from the tops of our legs. Well, if my pelvis changes just a tiny bit, how would that how would that tweak that? Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting, isn't it? I find it really fun. I guess Yeah. Somebody else I've started talking to moms about lately, especially moms who you know, have who work it use their art as you know, a career when you were growing up, what sort of role modelling did you have from from your own upbringing about what a mother could look like? What you sort of options were as a as a mother I guess. So my mum was so passionate, so passionate to let us fulfil our dreams and confidence building and I think I can see myself now with Elizabeth just imparting little things. I know you can do you know what walking, you can do it? No, you can. So I had that kind of structure and I had an older sister who was very fat, very musical, but very outgoing and confident. So I think those those things in your life they rub off on you. They are an upper New and then I guess in the kind of artistic world. There were just so many so many dancers from the Royal Ballet that used to watch and see teachers as he used to impart a few words of wisdom, I do a little bit of teaching now. And it can make or break students. And that's, you know, a such a powerful role of being a teacher. Especially when you're maybe more of a vulnerable age, as a giant where you hold on to every word, I think we can probably all remember, a praise. And we can all remember a negative thing that has, you know, it's so important. Definitely, you think about that when you're raising a child of the implications of words. And think of what they will pick up on. So important. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Because I think a lot of time we sort of, we might use a term as a throwaway term or say something we don't necessarily mean, but that's what your child he is. And then they hold on to that. Yeah, so yeah, it's when when you just said about you'll always remember praise and, you know, a negative comment straightaway, I just went, went back to little Alison doing singing lessons like it just straightaway, back to that space. Like it's yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It is, isn't it? Yeah. stuff. I haven't thought about it for years now. But okay. Thanks. I'll leave that bit. So, tell us where you're going. We will be going on to our spring season, which is the Tennessee Williams story of A Streetcar Named Desire. Oh, awesome. Oh, love is a ballet that we have done before we actually created it a Scottish ballet a few years ago. So I'm revisiting it, which is going to be so lovely. And I love the story ballet. And then we will be touring that in the spring, around to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow, and the spring seasons, always the nicest because of the blossoms and blooms and the weather. Just start starting in Scotland. It's not always great, but it just starts to free up the frost. Yeah, and you get blue skies. And then we will be preparing for our American tour in May, which is to Washington, Charleston and Nashville, like so. And will that be the same show that you were to the crucible? So another story? Yeah, right. It's funny. We were just talking about that today. Sorry, on a completely different I'm just I was just talking about that today with my son. Yeah. Because it's something which Charles Yeah. Elizabeth proctor? Oh, pregnant. It's just I mean, you know, I couldn't play a more authentic role. Really? It's just lovely. Oh, how exciting. Have you done that one before? Is that a new one for you? I actually created an Elizabeth proctor around about four years ago. And I have performed it now being a man we performed it back in London. Yes, and this has been my second time now. Oh, lovely. Oh, that's exciting. So I'll put some links in the show notes where people can check out where you guys are and if you're in the neck of the woods, I say hello. All moms just sometimes just pat themselves on the back and be like You're awesome. I think to your friends, you maybe don't have children. I think it's it's a really lovely trait that they you know, they try and you keep those conversations and you try and understand and still meant bringing your children into because that's also another huge dynamic shift. I'm actually the only dancer in the company currently with a child. Yeah, right. So just just things like that, but I don't feel it's a, because she's constantly in the conversation or they ask and I think keeping things like that open is important. Yeah, she's a part of it. It's not. It's not like this this taboo subject that we don't talk about with Bethany. You know, it's, she's, she's part of it all. Yeah. All thank you so much for coming on. Like, it's just been so lovely chatting to you, and all the rest with your dancing and on your tour and everything and oh, yeah, I'll keep I'll keep my eye out for you. If you ever come to rescind your Alia, I know. Please. I mean, I will keep you know on social media with you. And if it's anything else, from a UK tie in, I'm here and I'm for you. And yeah. Oh, thank you. Appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.