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Lisa Sugarman US writer S2 Ep57 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Lisa Sugarman, a writer and mum of 2 grown daughters from that famous town of Salem Massachusetts, USA. Before having her children Lisa was a newspaper (news and feature) reporter, writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa was a teacher for 15 years in local school system, as a class room teacher, coach administration and one-on-one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older and she working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. in 2009 her column "It Is What it Is" became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This lead her to the opportunity to write books, full of content the helps and inspires families, and in particular mothers, and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. Let the mistakes happen and embrace them. This lead her to the radio in Boston for many years. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, suicide + the death of a parent ** Lisa lost her dad to suicide when she was 10 years old, but didn’t find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later. Now, because of that life-changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention and she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQIA+ community. She lives by the motto "It’s okay that life is messy…because we're all a work in progress." Today in addition to my regular topics, we end up talking a lot about social media, and the role it has played in creating 'helicopter parenting'. and the affects of its portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and parenting expectations. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Lisa's website / The Vomit Booth Read about the Salem Witch Trials We mention the Uvalde School shooting and The Beaumont Children Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman.I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me it really is an absolute privilege and an honor that you've chosen to listen to my podcast. My guest today is Lisa Sugarman. Lisa is a writer and a mum of two grown daughters from that very famous Town of Salem, Massachusetts in the United States. Before having a children Lisa was a newspaper, news and feature reporter writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa spent 15 years working in local schools as a classroom teacher, a coach in administration, and a one on one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older, and she was working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. In 2009 Her column it is what it is, became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This led to the opportunity to write books full of the content that helps and inspires families and in particular mothers and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. This led Lisa to host her radio show in Boston for many years. This episode contains discussion around mental health and suicide and the death of a parent. Lisa lost her dad Jim to suicide when she was 10 years old. But she didn't find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later when she was 45. Now because of that life changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention. And she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQ plus community. She lives by the motto. It's okay that life is messy, because we're all a work in progress. Today amongst the usual topics I like to discuss, we end up talking a lot about social media and the role that it's played in creating helicopter parenting, and the effective it's portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and our parenting expectations. The music you'll hear today is from my trio, LM Joe, which is made up of myself, M Anderson, my sister and her husband, John, we play new age and ambient music. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page. Alison Newman dot net slash podcast. Thanks so much for coming on today. Lisa, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're in America, we're about to you. So we live about 15 miles north of Boston on the east coast of the country. And we're in this cute little, semi famous city of Salem. Wherever you might be in the world, you can recognize that name, because it's got a lot of history attached to it. So we just we just moved actually from my hometown about a mile down the road. A little a little sea coast town and the birthplace of the American Navy. We just moved out maybe nine months ago, we just our girls are grown women now and we didn't need a house in any particular neighborhood anymore. And we just kind of took advantage of the crazy real estate market and sold and moved down the road. So we're in Salem. Oh, very good. So you're getting yourself set up in that special little town is it how many people live there? Is it very big Salem? In Salem? Um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that at this point. I know the exact population but it's a pretty densely populated city and it's it's fairly Large. So there are definitely, definitely a lot of people i We live in an area of Salem that's kind of not in the hustle, we're a little bit removed from where people who are tourists would typically come to see and everything involving the witch trials. And, you know, you know all of that history you would go maybe two or three miles away from where we are, but it's a pretty it's a pretty densely populated little city. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think that pretty much everyone that's listening, probably recognize the name and the connections and the history. Yeah. I remember reading the crucible in year 11, or 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's something like we obviously have our own sort of histories here. But we've got we've got nothing sort of along those lines. So it's really fascinating to sort of, and I don't know how much of that is really true, either. Like, is there a bit of sort of folklore that goes along with? Yeah, there's, there's, there's some lore attached to it, for sure. And it's definitely I'm sure been embellished over the years, but I think, you know, so much of it, believe it or not, is, is actually very true. And it's been very well documented. And I mean, we haven't taken the tours since I was in grade school. And we would, you know, we would always, it would always be like a little junket to Salem to, you know, kind of take advantage of all that history. That's there. So I mean, I, I know that, you know, there is there's a lot of truth, kind of woven into all of those legends as well. So it's, it's a pretty deeply historical spot with so much significance. And it's neat, especially around October, Well, depends on your perspective, if you're from here, you want to be as far away from here as possible. If you're not here, like the entire world seems to converge on Salem, for the month of October. So everybody that that I know, knows to stay far away, because it's a little chaotic. Yeah. It's also kind of cool that everyone was, would be really interesting. Living in a place like that. So tell us a little bit about yourself lay. So what you do what you've done, I guess you can expand for as long or as short as you wish. So the floor is yours. Yeah, I appreciate that. So first and foremost, I mean, I'm I'm a mom, I have two very grown daughters, my youngest just turned 22. And our oldest is turning 25 in another few weeks. So I've been at it for a while that a little motherhood game. I was a teacher in our local school system for many, many years, probably close to 15 years and wore a lot of different hats in kind of in that role was a classroom teacher was a coach worked in administration was a one on one aid supporting just individual children with special needs over the years. So I had a really, really big open wide lens to really kind of view the parent child relationship, that that whole dynamic, the way the whole family system works, the way kids are, are educated and supported. So that's kind of what tracked me over toward what I've been doing most recently, in the last decade or so. I've always been a writer. So before I had children, I was a newspaper reporter for many, many years and wrote for magazines here in the US, and this way pre pre internet and that whole explosion. And we kind of took a break, or I took a break from that and stayed home and raised our daughters. And then it's just so funny how, how things happen. So unexpectedly, like you're you're tracking in one direction, and then you get an opportunity. And it kind of puts you on a on a totally different path. And that's what happened to me. I was working in the school systems. And just for fun, I started writing again, I had never written a column in my life, I was always a news and feature reporter and I just for fun started contributing to my local paper, because I had had some pretty deep connections there when I was in college. And they're always asking, you know, these these little hometown newspapers or I was desperate for people to, you know, to give them content. So I just started writing about what I was living at the time and what I was living with parenthood. So I started writing. And little by little, it just started catching on and people started responding really well to it. And it just birthed this whole brand new career. So the column was syndicated, it's called it is what it is. And it was just syndicated throughout this media organization, it was all over the country and then it kind of, you know, by virtue of the internet, it goes all over the world. So that happened for men. I've got like 12 years 11 or 12 years I was writing the column I still do and from time to time less so because I started focusing on books. And that led me to the opportunity to write books. And I've written a few of them, parenting focused all about kind of how to embrace your perfectly imperfect, this is really the easiest way to understand it. Let the mistakes happen, embrace them, and, and really kind of find the good nuggets that are within that. And then that kind of led me to the radio, and I ended up on the radio for a couple of years here in Boston. And so it's just, it's just been this, this really cool little flow of opportunities that have all kind of centered around creating content that helps support and inspire families and in particular moms. So that's, that's kind of the long answer to the How did I get to this point? And what kind of stuff do I do? So? Yeah, I still very much enjoy writing parenting content, although I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit. And I'm doing a lot of mental health advocacy, and suicide awareness and prevention and doing a lot of speaking and, and writing about that as well. So that that's, that's all interrelated, because it really, it impacts our kids an awful lot. And, you know, it's important to start and have those conversations. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So with your books, do you sort of draw on your own personal, like things that have happened to you, things that you've learned, or, I don't know, wish you'd known that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's exactly where it comes from. That's, that's where everything, just about everything that that I've done has come from, it's all anecdotally based. So it's really just either, you know, stories and experiences from my own childhood, or from, you know, the experience of raising my own children. And all of that experience being in the school system, both in the classroom and kind of in the administration role, and working with parents and kids so closely, and I just started seeing, you know, I started seeing such a pattern with parents and with children and parents were just getting so overwhelmed by this, this invisible need to be the perfect parent to have the perfect kid to make sure that they didn't make any mistakes, to make sure that their kids never fell on their face to make sure that, you know, there was no struggle. And in doing that, and it was all based from a place of love and caring for their children. But they were absolutely crushing their kids with these crazy expectations of how they should behave and what they should accomplish and how, I guess how, just how perfect they should be. And and it was it was really debilitating. And you can see the kids being affected by that and such negative ways. Kids kids couldn't couldn't build resilience, because they couldn't do things for themselves. They weren't allowed to do things for themselves. So I just started voicing my opinion, I guess, is what you could say about how counterproductive I thought that was. And that we really need to let our kids figure it out by failing by trying one way doesn't work. You go another way and, and it just really stirred up. You know a lot in me in terms of wanting to help parents understand that they don't have to be perfectly you can give yourself permission to trump the balls. And, you know, to kind of embrace that madness because parent parenthood, like if you can't laugh at parenthood, then you're in the wrong job, you know, yeah, that's it, isn't it? I've got just after you've said that, I've got that many things I want to ask you. I've got so many questions, I can take you in lots of different directions. So I'm gonna go, let's go. I'm gonna go with so talking. I mean, the phrase that sort of comes to mind when you're talking about that, that method of parenting, that helicopter parenting where you've always got to be over the top of your kids making sure things go right. Like you said, they don't. They don't get that chance to build their resilience because they don't get the opportunity to fail and experience Is that sort of emotions and that sort of stuff? I wonder, because often we talk about different generations and how they were parented and the sort of norms that were around, then, when do you think things started to really change and become this different way of parenting? Because I remember, as a kid, you know, being allowed to go out for most of the day, ride my bike around the neighborhood, do all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, oh, no, you can't do that something will happen to you like, when did that start to change? Do you think and what might have brought about that change? You know, it's funny that you should say that because I talk about that with my daughters, what we you and I have had similar experiences. The town that I grew up in this little coastal Harbor Town, just north of Boston, a mile from where I am right now is just this little peninsula town, surrounded by a harbor, four square miles, we would get on our bikes, there were train tracks, paths all around town, where you could get to and from one end and the other and that's all we did, we would be outside until Billy Fallon's mom rang the bell or blew the slide whistle and like the whole neighborhood would scatter and go home because they knew it was time to go home. But we out for like a second the sun came up. And we'd be on the path and we'd be downtown, we'd be in the harbor, and, and my kids, my kids were bike riders, not to that same degree. But they were the kids playing manhunt. I don't know if it's manhunt is a game that that, you know, it's it's tag, it's just like, all throughout the neighborhood and in the trees and in the fields and whatnot. So it still existed when my kids were young, but I feel like I can't say that there was a catalyst, like, I don't necessarily know that I can say, okay, that at that exact time, because of that exact event, everything shifted. But I do think it was somewhere in between our generation and my children's generation, where, you know, I think, I think meet the social media influence has just brought so much fear, it's done so much good. But it's also done so much damage. And I think that, with that constant connection, and that constant flood of information, and news and, and trauma, we're all living through trauma. I mean, look, no further. I don't know if the news has arrived yet. Of what happened in Texas. Okay, so, and I'm really my heartbreaks. For you guys over there. It's just shocking. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, as as someone who taught for so many years, and as the mom of two daughters, both of whom are teachers currently. You know, it's hard, I have so many teacher friends, and just a mom, and anyone who, of course, especially as a parent, can just hear that, that situation about those those poor children and those teachers who were killed. And it's just, it's devastating. And it's like, but we the reason why I'm bringing that up is because the second that happened, the world knew about it. It was everywhere. It was on, it was buzzing on every phone and every tablet on the planet. And so everyone is sharing in that trauma, everyone is experiencing that fear. Everyone is making plans because of it to protect their children. What else can I layer around my child? How else? How better Can I bubble wrap my child and my family and my world. And so we've got those influences in ways that we never had them before. So on the one hand, having something like social media or a phone or the ability to connect with your kids, when they're off in the world, is great, because it's kind of like that umbilical cord is still partially connected. And that's a comforting feeling. But I think we've leaned too heavily into that, to the point where everything is about instant gratification now. Why is my kid not texting me back? What happened to them? Did they get hit by a car? Did they get abducted? Did they I mean, like, so I think that you know, there's a there's a good side and a bad side to this whole social media phenomenon. But I think that, that right there. If I were going to point to one thing that has really done more damage, it's that because now everyone's hearing from every possible angle in the world. What could happen to your kid if you let them out the door? Yeah, you know, and so I think because of that, we've just, maybe our generation, my generation, I guess, has just clamped down an awful lot harder. Out of fear. Yeah. Yeah, it's very fear driven, isn't it? It's that need to keep people safe or stop, stop the bad thing happening or stop them from feeling upset or bad or, you know, emotions that we see as negative or that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't want to talk about bad stuff. But as an example, there was years and years ago in Australia, there was some children abducted though, called the Beaumont children. And for years and years and years. That was like the only, I guess, episode of that nature that we all knew about it. This was back in the 60s, I think. And so you know that that thing you're saying about, we're all connected now. Any everything in anything that happens? We all hear about it. So there probably was other stuff going on, but we just didn't know about it. Yeah. So once we know about it, we'll go Oh, no. And yeah, go into that fury action. I'm glad you brought up social media, because that was something I was going to ask you about this notion of perfection, the the way that now because we see this curated version of people's lives, we not everybody, but a lot of people want to present the very best of themselves on social media, you know, which is fair enough, I suppose you want to even want to look good or whatever, but unrealistic, to the point where, you know, it's really not reflective of people's lives. And so it's giving off this false sense of perfection. So then everyone else that's consuming that information, starts to think, oh, no, I must be doing something wrong. My life doesn't look like that. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of you agree with? Oh, yeah. Not only do I Gree with it, but I talk about it, often, I write about it even more often. And I really appreciate the fact that you use the word curate, because when I do talk about it, that is always my go to word. Because that is exactly what's happening. People, people are filtering or curating the best of the best of the best. And in most cases, and I mean, you know, there, I think there's now a happy to see now that there seems to be a little bit of a shift, where people are like, No, that's bullshit. Why am I doing that? Why am I why? Why are we only putting this facade out there? It's this veneer of what's you know, of what we think people want to see or what we want to project. And I think people are getting tired of it quickly, because it's sending such a, you know, such a damaging message. And it's creating, you know, we fall as parents into such a comparison trap, and I write about this, my co author and I write a lot about this, in our most recent book, we have an entire chapter devoted to not know, not falling into this comparison trap. And I think the biggest, the biggest suck into that trap, is what we're seeing on social media, and we really can't avoid it. I mean, do you know, do you honestly also know, a human being at this stage of life that does not have some kind of a device? I mean, unless it's like a newborn. And even I think the newborns, there must be like a newborn tablet or something, right? And they give you this push on. So I mean, it's like, granted, you know, people use things to different degrees. And not everybody who has social, you know, social media is on Instagram, and not everyone is part of Facebook or not, but the majority are, and, you know, when you're in that world, it's impossible to avoid seeing what's being put out there. And when you, you look at that, and you start comparing yourself to that, it's, I don't want to use the word traumatizing because I think that that might be a little bit of a strong word to use, but it's it definitely leaves a mark on you. If you're like, Well, wait a minute, like, how come that mom of 12 children is so beautifully, like she's perfect looking and dressed, you know, dressed like to the, to the nines, and she's, you know, she's she's driving her SUV and she's got her coffee in her hand and all of her children have braids. They're all wearing dresses. She's all made up, like, like, come on, like, this is crap. Like people like you know, I know so many moms who are Like, I couldn't even like, find a robe, to put on myself to get my kid to, like, conceal my, my pajamas to drive my kid to school, you know, you know, like throwing kids into into the school, like throw an apple and a handful of Cheerios at your kid and then dump them in the car. And so it's like, we need, we need that reality check. And we need to stop comparing ourselves because it's just so toxic. And it's so unfortunate because it really I think weighs heavily on people. Even though our rational brains most of us are like, okay, come on, this is dumb. Why am I trying to compare myself to that person? My situation is different. There's this different, but it's like human nature. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing you're not when you're, you know, you're scrolling through your Instagram or your Facebook feed, you're not in, you know, switched on rational mode, you're in relaxed looking at stuff mode. So you do you use, that's your first reaction is to go to that, oh, how come? I can't do that? Or how come she can do that? Or, you know, and then yeah, you might think about it later and go, Oh, this is the list of reasons why perhaps, you know, but yeah, we will we go to it? You mentioned that you're interested in mental health issues. Do you find that that a lot of issues with around people's mental mental health comes from this kind of bombardment of social media and the comparisons and that kind of stuff? I do? I absolutely do. And, you know, again, I'm the mom of two children. And I think back to that time, which was not long ago, it was in my children's lives, when they didn't have this influence, they didn't have this gateway, into a world of other kids their age doing doing all these things. And you know, they didn't have the ability to see the, the birthday party or the bar mitzvah, or the event that they weren't invited to, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can now and, you know, they couldn't get harassed. In this way. It was like, back in the day, when you went to school and you got bullied on the playground, which was bad enough. Now, it's like, there's nowhere in the world you can't get bullied, because you've got, you know, this vehicle that allows that to happen, right in your hand all the time. So I think, again, it's like, you know, I keep using social media, and technology as kind of the catch all for why so many things have escalated. But it's in all fairness, like it is it exists and, and impacting kids mental health is definitely one our mental health to forget about just kids, but it's just as bad, you know, for us to see the, you know, the the girls trip that a whole bunch of the moms, you know, went on, and you didn't go or the big garden party that someone had or, you know, day on the boat that you weren't invited to, it's, you know, it's impossible to ignore it. I think that it depends on who you are. And it depends on how seriously you take that, being bombarded with that all the time. But, I mean, look at the suicide rates in young children right now in adolescent and teenage children. And it's startling, and it's going up. And, you know, every other day, you turn on the news, and you hear about a child who was cyber bullied, and they jumped off a bridge and you hear about a child, you know, who was shamed, you know, who was shamed because of their size? Or, you know, something, you know, that it's, there's bigotry, there's, like, every negative thing in the world can flow through your phone just as easily as every positive thing, and our kids are right there on the other side of it. So I think it's, it's absolutely had a really negative impact. And it's, it's sad. It's sad, and I don't know, you know, aside from putting things like parental controls in place, and really just understanding what your kids are looking at when you're younger kids are a part of that even even as they navigate it and start to be part of it and grow into it. Like we've got to, we've got to really be super focused on what they're focused on. It's too easy to let a lot of the negativity slide Under our radar, and still reach them. And I think it's hard for some parents too, because because we didn't grow up in this world of what's happening to be actually actually aware of what is happening, because I mean, a lot of teenagers aren't, you know, super forthcoming with what's going on in their lives or what they're consuming on their phones. So yeah, to sort of, I don't know, yeah, I don't want to say educate yourselves, because that sounds really patronizing. But, you know, being aware talking to other parents and sort of finding out what sort of stuff your child could be into, or being exposed to, so you actually can help them out and put some boundaries in place, perhaps to sort of limit what they're what they're exposed to. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say to say that I don't think it's patronizing to say that at all, I think it's necessary to say that and even more necessary to act on that, because we're that line of defense, it is our job when they aren't rational enough as young people and they're developing and, you know, those connections are all being made in their brains. It's up to us to create those boundaries. And to keep talking the same talk. And I don't want to say it's rhetoric, because it's not rhetoric, it's important. But it's one of those things as parents, especially young kids, that we have to just keep saying over and over again until you want to throw up and until your kids want to throw up because they're so sick of hearing it, but we keep saying it anyway. Yeah. I want to turn to still looking at social media as a little bit. But the something I really love to talk about guests as talk about with guests on my show is mum guilt and or mommy guilt or mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. What are your thoughts about that whole topic? Oh, wow, I have a lot of thoughts about mom guilt, I also at times have had plenty of mom guilt. It, it is a toxic emotion, because it keeps us from doing the things that I think we need to do. And instead causes us to do things that we think we're supposed to do, like keep our young children busy from the second that they open their eyes in the morning, until the second thing go to bed at night. And we are so afraid of and so consumed by guilt, if we don't have, you know, a four course dinner on the table every night, if we don't have the house clean, if we don't have activities planned, if we don't have social events, if we like all all these things in that and this, this ties in all of this mom guilt ties very heavily into the whole comparison issue. Because we're all looking at everything that everybody around us is doing. And I'm not just talking about on social media, I'm talking about just like in general, we're looking at what everybody is doing around us. And we're feeling such intense feelings of guilt because we're not doing what that family is doing. Or we're that mom is doing and you know, and we're feeling guilty about things that we shouldn't feel guilty about. Like if you love your child, and you're dedicated to supporting your child and inspiring and encouraging your child and, you know, and you're not gonna let your child go hungry, like it's okay, if they have a bowl of cereal for dinner. It's okay, if the laundry is not done. It's okay. If you didn't get dressed today. It's okay. Like, that's the stuff we have to start emphasizing more than the whole idea of checking off every single box or else our day sucks, and we accomplished nothing. And we're guilt ridden because we didn't accomplish all the things that we feel like we're supposed to do. So it's a huge issue. And, and again, you know, it also is another issue similarly in the way that more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster, and I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest In the same way, I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into it, because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection, if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what yeah, it just serves no purpose to anybody does. It's such a, it's a horrible thing. I hate it. I just think it's a load of crap. It is even just makes me so cross. It's. Yeah. And I just want to hug all the moms all at once every moment, like, let go. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I had, I had some ladies on, I had like, four, four mums on at one time for a Mother's Day special few weeks ago. And they one of the ladies had written a letter to mum guilt. And it was like, Mum, guilt, you're a bitch, I need to read that it was really good. Really. And that's the thing, like, as well as like, not, like admitting that we're not going great admitting that, you know, I don't want to say a failure, I'm putting that in air quotes. But you know, that it actually is normal to not be doing everything, as well as you had hoped, like, these expectations that we feel like, we've got to do it this way. You know, for whatever reason, because we've been judged, or because someone told us, we should do that this way. Or, for whatever reason, you know, and to say, I actually, I don't buy into that stuff, you know, it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to say, and then to share with other mums. And they might go, oh, actually, I was feeling a bit like that. But I didn't know whether I should feel like that, you know, doubting yourself. And creating this whole movement of this, you know, giving the middle finger to monkeys. I know, I love that. And I appreciate and support that so much. Because I think that so much of what motivates us to, to, to, to reach a place of guilt, or to compare ourselves to other people in the first place comes from, directly from our ego, as we're doing this thing that so many millions of people before us have done and so many people alongside us are doing. And there's this internal voice that says like, Oh, of course, like, I can totally do it, like they do it, like I should be able to do that. Right? I should be able to have six kids, and also run a business and also have a like, a Better Homes and Gardens house and look amazing. And besides to and, you know, it goes on and on and on. But, and I think that when we can't, or don't do the things that, you know, we feel are the things that should be done. You know, that's, that's when it chips away at us. And, and it kind of breaks us it breaks our spirit, because then it's like, well, how come they can do it? I can't show that I'm failing at it. Yeah, that's the reason that we've we've got a hold up that, again, that perfection that everything's fine this facade of, you know, I see. Yeah. I really think people are getting more comfortable with that feeling of saying that, that they you know, not projecting the perfect world. I think I think we are getting better slowly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I've been begging people to talk about now, for? Well, well over a decade. You know, I moderate a group on Facebook that I that I started now, it's been years, it's been several years ago. And it's on Facebook, it's a public group, and it's called the vomit booth. And it's just a place that marries kind of everything that I do in terms of, you know, writing and speaking and kind of philosophies of parenthood, the humanistic common sense views of parenthood, and I brought it to this place where it could have an interactive component and people could actually come into this group and talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff and bond together and share together and the idea of it being a place where you could kind of like hurl out vomit up whatever it is, that's that's troubling you or holding you back and that people someone's there to hold your hair back while you let it out. And you can listen and vent and, and some incredible conversations over the past several years have come out because it's a place that I really encourage people to like If you're not okay, if you're struggling with XY or z, if you feel inadequate, like, let it out, share it, start that conversation, because I guarantee you that there are 10 million other people feeling the same way. But nobody wants to be like, nobody wants to be the first one to talk in the elevator. Yeah, like, just but once somebody does, everybody starts talking. So that's what we want to do. Yeah, that reminds me that analogy of the first one to talk when I in Australia, we have this thing called Moms groups where after you have your baby, they, they put you with complete strangers, they're just people that happen to have their child at the same time as you. So you put in with these people that you have nothing else in common with, apart from your baby came out at the same time you need. That's all you need. That's the common denominator. And I remember one of the first sessions we went to, and I was, you know, things were not going well. And everyone goes around the circle and says how they're going. And everyone seemed to be going really well. And I was sitting there thinking, why is everyone going so good? What is wrong with me? You know, what's wrong with my baby? Why am I struggling? And then, when it was my turn, I think I said something. I tried to make a joke like, Oh, I'm glad you're all going so great, because I'm not and then just My life sucks. Right now. I shared all the crap things about the no sleep and the sore boobs and we couldn't breastfeed. And when I broke the ice with that, that's when everyone started to be more honest. And it was like, Oh, thank God, like we can be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah. That's what it takes. And then then, then everybody comes out of the woodwork. And then everyone's like, Oh, but wait, but me, but this, but that we're outdoing each other with worse stories. Exactly. And, and you know, not not to take the focus off of parenting, which is what I know we're spending so much time talking about to circle it back for a second to mental health. That is exactly. And this applies to children. And parents, obviously, it applies to mental health in the sense that once we start vocalizing are not being okay, or our struggle, or our fear, or whatever it is, once we put it out there, there is almost always going to be someone who will then connect with that, and then we'll have some kind of a similar experience or know someone or, or understand on a deeper level, and then it just, it's like self perpetuating, then all of a sudden, that dialogue starts and it's that's why it's so important what whatever space you're in, in the world, whether it's the mental health space, or the parenting space, or the marriage space. It's not communication, that can change everything that can elevate you from a place of silently suffering or feeling shame or being stuck to it elevates you to a place where okay, I'm not alone anymore. And other people know what I feel like and other people may have done some things can suggest some things that will, that will be useful to me. And that's why this there's so much incredible power in our shared experiences. But they do no one any good if we don't share them Yeah. Yeah, that mental health is at least interesting one, I think. People are really afraid to share that. It's like, the way I sort of compare like, if you've got a broken leg, you're not going to be scared to go to the doctor to say, Hey, could you fix my leg? But for some reason, we were so worried about being judged by I don't know, it's, it seems like we've we've failed somehow, but we're not actually in control of the, you know, the chemical imbalances in our brains. But we've sort of learned, I guess, from previous generations that that's something you don't talk about. And, you know, I had an experience where I had quite bad postnatal depression with both my children. And I shared I did a podcast years ago with a mental health group in my town. And then that then snowballed into it was like a group of community people that were known in the community members that that would be identified, sort of through whether they like it as me as a singer. There was like, people that own shops like just pick faces that you know, in the community, and we ended up with these great big banners. They put us on these banners and put us all around town with the little like cute barcode scan, listen and listen to the podcast. And my dad said to me, are you sure you want everyone to know what happened to you? I said, Yes, that I do. This is exactly why I'm doing it. Because I want people to know that it is normal is nothing to be ashamed of. It's like normalizing this discussion around mental wellness or mental unwellness. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, that generation, it's like, Oh, don't don't talk about that sort of stuff, you know? Well, we had no, you're right. 1,000%. Right. And I love the fact that you did that, because that is what we should all be doing. And I know, it's a lot harder for some than others. There are a lot of people out there who are, you know, very introverted, and very uncomfortable sharing. But the fact of the matter is that there has always been such a deep dark stigma associated with mental illness. I mean, I think back to, you know, another generation before me to my parents generation, though, I lost my father to suicide when I was 10 years old, thank you. And I didn't find out about his suicide until I was in my mid 40s. So 35 years later, I found out about it. Not at all, because my mother felt like it was shameful, had nothing to do with it whatsoever, my mother was just strictly trying to protect me, I had already lost my person to have told me at that time, when I was 10 years old, that it was his decision would have shattered me beyond repair. So in that sense, I'm so grateful that she did that. But it had nothing to do with a stigma. But still, at that time, and for so many decades later, until just really in recent history, it isn't, wasn't something you talked about, it was something that automatically, by default, gave you kind of a black mark, and made you feel less than or made you appear less than even if it didn't, it did in your own head because of the narrative that was associated with it. And, you know, it's like the same reason why parents were so reluctant to say that their children had learning disabilities, or that their children had mental health issues. And same thing, they didn't, they didn't want that stigma to be attached, but it's only in doing what you did, or what I began to do, which is to talk in every space I possibly can about my father's story, to help encourage other people to share their story, or their trauma or their grief or their, their illness, because that's how we change. That's how we normalize it. And that's how we change that narrative. You know, I think of it in in so many different ways, when I think of what happened to my father, and how it's impacted me in my life. You know, there's the loss that I felt as a 10 year old, then there's the loss that I felt, so I have grieved his death now twice in my life, you know, once his child and once as a grown, married mother of two children. And, you know, I think about the power that's within that story, both as a child and a survivor of suicide loss, and someone who has had to kind of travel that arc of forgiveness. And I also think about it in terms of like, when I really found out the truth, my girls were teenagers, I had one, just entering high school, I had one who was graduating from high school, and, you know, my oldest, has, has had mental health issues and has had anxiety and some depression and is very open about it. And, you know, getting help for it has changed your life, it's changed, you know, because as you said a little while ago, these are things it's like, if you were born, if you were born with six fingers on your hand, you would be someone who was born with six fingers on your hand, and that was beyond your control. And in that same exact way, like someone's born with a heart condition or someone God forbid, has cancer. It's, it is no different. The mental health challenges, issues, diagnoses, whatever you want to call them, that we have as human beings like that is that is beyond our control. And we need to be treated in the same way that you would treat someone with heart disease or cancer or whatnot or a broken leg. Yep. So yeah, my my, my goal at that time once I kind of arrived at a place of really, truly understanding why my father, I don't know the reason why I will never know the reason why. And that haunted me for a long time. It doesn't anymore. I just know that my father had so much mental illness that was undetected by anybody in our family, but he it was not being here anymore, whether it was for our benefit or his was the only solution. And so I've come to accept that but I've also accepted the fact that my father had so much gin netic like the genetic cocktail in my poor dad's body, from where he grew up and how he grew up, and the mental illness that existed in his family, like that's in my destiny that's in my children. And what really inspired me, I think, to start talking in general about it to my children in particular, was, like, you guys may not feel this way or that way now, or have these feelings or emotions or thoughts now, maybe when you're 22, maybe when you're 26, maybe when you're 30, maybe, you know, these, these things don't always surface immediately. And I wanted them to know like, look, this is, here's your DNA. Here's, here's what could be in your DNA. And here's what it might look like in you. Because here's what it looks like in him, I have certain tendencies or issues. I'm an empath. I feel everything as though I'm grabbing on to like an electrified wire, all the good and the bad in my life house, and I feel it like I'm holding a live wire. And I know, that's how it manifested in me, but I wanted to have that conversation with my kids so that they would know and be able to have an open line of communication. Like, I'm okay, I'm feeling weird. I need to talk to someone I knew. So, yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that it's worth. It's yeah, thank you. It's really great. So that, that you're able to share it. Because like you said, there's so many people that can't for whatever reason, and that sort of reason why I feel like I sort of want to help those people in my own way by sharing my story, because maybe they can't, but that, like you said before, you know, they might take something from it, they might go, oh, I can empathize with that I, I experienced that. Or I understand what you mean by that. And that might give them the little nudge to, to reach out and do what they need to do. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Identity is another thing that I really love talking about this, you know, that we're, we're a woman, we're having this amazing life. We're doing all these things, and then we become a mother. And then it seems that our sole purpose is then to, you know, be a mother, that we might lose other components of ourselves that we had three children, or all? Yeah, yeah. So Oh, and yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people through these podcasts. And there's so many varying degrees of experience with that, which is wonderful. Because, you know, we're all different in that it's great to share. Have you got some thoughts about that? Topic? Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts, a lot of odds, a lot of experience with it. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely lost for a period of time, for sure. In my life. Probably around the time that I chose to stay home, my husband and I agreed, you know, that, that I would stay home. He was, you know, the primary breadwinner at the time. And, and it made sense, just economically, that I would be the one. And I was in that place that you talked about, like that incredible place of, Oh, I know exactly what my purpose is. My purpose is those two little humans and, and teaching them and growing them and nurturing them and loving them and doing everything for them. And you get lost in that place. And I'm not saying that that's not a beautiful place, and you have children, and obviously you have children to be devoted to those children and raise them and whatnot. But as I think we've all realized, over the past, I would say probably five years or so 10 years or so, maybe just even five self care is something self care and preserving or creating our own identity simultaneously, is so necessary, it is imperative that we do that. And so many of us just kind of pack up our former identity, and just put it in a little box and put it in the back of the closet. And that's where it stays. And we're so you know, laser focused on our kids. That then all of a sudden, and it happens all of a sudden, you know, it is gradual, but then it's not because all of a sudden you're at that point where you're like, well, they don't need me at all, for almost anything except maybe some cash from time to time. And laundry and food. So, and then all of a sudden you're like What the hell am I What am I supposed to do now? Like, where do I go? What do I do and, and it's really hard. And I was definitely in that space. And what really did help me was kind of this organic, tripping and falling into this life within the school system that I had. And that became a path that felt right to me for so many years. And for so many reasons. You know, and then I had a chance to, you know, write books for a living and do what I'm doing now. And it evolved, but it was only because I basically, like pulled on my big girl pants and said, I, I have to have something that is for me, I have to figure out what that is, and who that is. And you know, and honor what I need for my life. Because I've just spent the last, you know, 20 something years, giving my children what they needed. And the more attention that I started paying on myself. And the more I did for the benefit of my own growth, and the more I prioritized that the healthier I was everywhere else in my life, like bottom line, and it was work. It was working, and it continues to be work. But it's such powerful, unnecessary work. Hmm. You know, so lately, That's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's something that I, I could not exist without things for myself, honestly, I just go, like, go more mental than I am now. No, I get it, I get it have to have, it's just, ah, I don't know. I, it's so it is so necessary. And you know, it's interesting, like, like, I was saying before, like, I couldn't, I couldn't be a stay at home mom, like I just, I have so much respect for for moms that do that, because I just couldn't do it. You know, and we're all different in what we need. And, and that kind of stuff. I just Yeah, I don't know. But first of all, there's nothing I love better than a good Blab. That's, you know, that's where all the best ideas and you know, and experiences come from our blabbing. But like, I just have such respect for for all the different varieties of parenting that there are out there, like you've got the stay at home mom, or you've got the mom that those the hybrid, or you've got the mom that goes into the office every day or, you know, and every thing in between. And, you know, there's, there's just so much credit, I think to be given, for people who understand, like, this is where I'm really good. This is where I'm really great. And this is where I need to make sure that a lot of my attention is focused, and but it's also over here too. So it's like, you know, it's just it, we're constantly building on ourselves. And, and, and I love that there's so much inspiration for doing it in so many different ways. And there isn't one way that's, that's better or more accomplished than any other way. They're just great examples. And that just inspires me when I see that. Yeah. And it kind of this, this, someone's going off on a tangent never it kind of makes me it makes me sad for a lot of sets the word, but it Yeah, it does. It makes me sad for for previous generations of women whose role it was exclusively to be a mother, you know, like, there wasn't a choice. It was like, when you got pregnant, you left work, because you had to give the jobs to the single women, right? When they got married, they had to quit their jobs. You know, just all the things that women would have wanted to do. You know, and if they did do it, they were judged so harshly for, you know, doing the wrong thing. And putting that in air quotes again. You know, just the opportunities that we have now, because of the work that previous generations have done to get us to this point is tremendous. Because I just think if I hadn't lived in that era of my grandmother, yeah, I would. I would know, you and I would have gone on an island somewhere. Like another community where we could do anything we wanted because i It's funny, I often think about that my daughter, my oldest and I seem to fall into this conversation all the time about different periods of time, where we felt she she would have preferred living during like, caveman era for something she's got lots of wrist very funny, lots of reasons why, but with that I don't need to go into but that was like her period of time. And I, you know, I would have loved to have lived I think during the 60s. I mean, I was a child of the 60s but I was an infant. I would have liked to have had that experience because it was such an explosive period of time in the world. But I also think that you I don't think I could have survived it just like you like, I know, like, I would have known if I was the person I am today that back then I would have been like, Oh, hell no, like, I'm gonna work. No, like equal salary equal opportunity. I'm gonna work from home, my husband's gonna raise the kid, you know, and I think I made it would have made a lot of enemies back then because I just wouldn't have tolerated it. But yeah, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those, you know, those pioneers who came before us for sure. Absolutely. stuff without them. Oh, yeah. See, even like, when I watch, I really love period dramas. I can't even think like the Jain is and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you just think those those skills there are in? What's that one that's on the British and, you know, you get a taste for it. There's one of the daughters, who just, you know, wants to do our own thing doesn't want to get married, you know, you just think how much of that would have gone on. But no one would have had a choice. It's just you had to do this, you had to marry this bloke for money, because it kept your family going, you know, all the sacrifices that women would have made to think Christ at night. Just, it's, it's really disturbing. Like, read it. i Yeah, it's disturbing. And I also feel like such deep sadness that so many generations of women had to live such a pressed lives, and we're so limited and these brilliant, capable humans, were forced to do like, one of three things. Either you were going to be a teacher, or you were, you know, a mother or a homemaker or that was it. And, um, yeah, we we've, we've definitely come a long way. And, you know, I'm excited to see how much further we can go. But like, I'm just really grateful that I'm kind of living in the period of time that I'm living right now. Yeah. I would not have made it yet. You, so you mentioned your daughter there. Briefly, I wanted to ask, as a mom of two girls, is it important for you to sort of role model the fact that as a mom, you can do anything you want? That? You can? You can? Yeah, the sky's the limit, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been incredibly important to me. And I think that the reason why it's, it's so deeply embedded in me is because of my own mother, and because of what my own mother has both gone through and accomplished in in her life. I mean, my mother, you talk about, like what people were supposed to do at certain times, you know, in history, my mother, when she went to school, went to high school was, was just such a strong and capable student she loved, she loved school, she loved the whole learning process. But she came from a family that was a very lower income family, everybody worked, and she wanted to go off to college, they couldn't afford college. So as soon as she graduated with honors from high school, she went to work with my grandmother. And so, you know, then my mother got married and worked a part time job in a nursing home. And my all of all of my experiences with you know, when I think of strong women, it all traces back to what my mother did. My mother was became a widow when she was 40. She had never had a college degree. She had to raise now a family by herself, a child by herself live in a home by herself. And my mother went back to school, six months after my father passed away, went back to college for five years at night, got her degree, worked, got a good job, you know, was the most present and hands on parent and it was because of that, like, I saw that. I saw that, you know, my mother and I used to do homework together in her bedroom at four and 5am in the morning, because that's the only time she could do it. She wanted to do it in a way that it wouldn't disrupt our dynamic. And so I started doing that with her and it just she and she alone was the one that that proved to me that like the sky is the limit. You can do anything that you set your mind to that women are so resilient. Humans are so resilient and I always wanted my daughters to feel that way. So it's, you know, when I started getting opportunities to do the things that I really wanted to do, like, I wanted to be on the radio, I wanted to write books, I, you know, I wanted to put myself out there, it was scary as hell, because, you know, you put content out there on a regular basis, and you know, that not everybody receives what you put out there well, and I was like, nope, gonna, gonna go gonna go ahead and do it. And as a result, you know, my, I've watched my daughters grow into their independence and want to just kind of, like, grab life by the throat and say, here I come. And it's beautiful. And it's, it's necessary, and if it doesn't come from us, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to be wired that way in their life. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah, when they get from us, and, and my husband too, is, is has always been so is, you know, inspiring in that way, and supportive and, you know, has built us up and motivated us and encouraged us to, you know, and supported us to get out there and do all the things. You know, so having those positive influences really makes a huge impact. Yeah, that's it is it? It's like they, if they grow up with that, that that positive messaging from the beginning, it's like, that's, they're gonna take that through their lives and keep passing it on. And, you know, that just keeps rolling on all that. All that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Something I've just started talking to moms about, I'm gonna make it an official topic, because I'm getting really interested in this lately. It's funny how like, like, you're talking before how you get led in certain ways, and you do different things that you might have been planning. Same happens with, like, the topics I talk about, they sort of evolve over time. And one thing that keeps coming up is this, the value, a big thing is through the pandemic, when things got shut down, as particularly in Australia, you know, we had the restriction on movements between our states, but our sports people, mainly sports men, were able to basically do whatever they liked, or the football and the soccer or continued, but the arts and anything sort of creative, like performance, you know, the shows, all that sort of stuff, that all got shut down. And that sort of is sort of sparked a bit of a, a conversation or a thoughts around the value that we place on the arts, and then that sort of snowballed into the value that we place on a mother that is a creator, you know, is it? Is it okay for her to do that? Because that's not a roll. Putting that in air quotes again. Yeah, you know, she's meant to raise children. So how do we view the mother? That is the Creator? Do you have any thoughts on that? I've just spread me sweat on you. Yeah, no, I like I like when people throw questions like that at me that I don't see coming. You know, I think that it goes back to what we talked about a little while ago, that we, we and I say we, in terms of women, mothers have had to fight for our position. And, and it's been a very challenging fight. And, you know, I think by default, we, you know, when you think of parents, you naturally just automatically assume that the mother is going to be that prime caregiver. And that that has to be kind of the ultimate responsibility that, you know, that overshadows any other thing that that woman may be that you know, that she she may be a professional, she may be an artist, she may be a creator, any of those things, like, we've got to shove all that aside for 18 or so years. And we've got to focus on on, you know, the mom being the mom. I think, I think it's trending, but I don't know what you're seeing in Australia now that we're, I don't want to say that we're out of a pandemic, because we are by no means out of it. But I think that you know, I don't want to put it in these terms, but I think it is just, it's just but in these terms by default, you talk about like, oh, well, it was okay for the footballers and the men to keep doing what they were doing. Well, they were making money. It was commercial, they were making money. And I'm not to say that artists like I know that you're a singer and a songwriter, and you know, and those who are kind of deep within the arts aren't making money but they sure as hell aren't making money on the same scale, as you know, professional teams and things like that. So I think that they just got a free pass. Yeah. And we still had to stay kind of, you know, had to be kept in this role of, Oh, you guys have to be there to take care of everything else. While you know, well, well, you know, the money is being made. And, you know, there's, you know, the energy surrounding this, these, these sports and, and what comes from them has to be supported, you guys have to do the rest because by virtue of you know, parenting, I mean, it's you know, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of caregivers are moms are women. Not that there aren't plenty of stay at home dads and caregivers who are dads, but that's our role. And we have to just keep kind of breaking out of that. That, that place of that identity. And, and I think it all goes, it travels right back to the whole, you know, self care and identity conversation that we had a few minutes ago. Where's it we can't tolerate that anymore. That's the thing. We have to say, our art or our craft or our inspiration, or our creativity is just as important. And just as as necessary, and we have to fight for it. And it sucks that we have to do so much active promoting it and fighting for it. But we do and we have to do that collectively. And that's that's how we change that tide. Yeah. You know, your thoughts about it? Yeah, the thing that, yeah, then the monetary thing is a big one, isn't it? Because we obviously live in a capitalist society. So money drives pretty much everything. And that's something that has really been annoying me lately, too. It's like, because because what you're doing doesn't have a similar monetary value to what someone else is doing. It's just automatically not given the credit that the other thing is given. And that's something that annoys me. Oh, and, and I think it annoys me too. And I'm glad that we're talking about it, because it's by virtue of conversations like this, like whoever it is, that's listening to us right now. If they share that feeling, well, then that's, then there's a domino effect there. And then this conversation extends beyond you and I and extends beyond the podcast, and then it gets other people talking and gets other people aware. And then there's, then we have to kind of collectively not tolerate it anymore, recognize it? And then start talking about it so that it can be addressed. And it can change. Absolutely, yeah. And I think an example that I always go to, with this show, whenever we start talking about value, monetary value, and how society generally, judges creativity, or the arts. There was a, I'm gonna get this story wrong every time I feel like I change it every time I tell it. But one of my guests gave me an example of how her and her sister in law both had young children that the grandma was going to be looking after, while the moms were working. The grandma would look after the sister in law's children, because she was going to a proper job in a proper office, putting their near quotes again. But she wouldn't look after the artists children, because she was just fluffing it out. She wasn't actually working. And I'm praying that air quotes get. And that's just, I mean, that's could be potentially a generational thing too. But oh, sure, for sure. Yeah, it's just that kind of view of the arts and mother's creating, it just gives me the sheets and really, you know what it is? I think it's not it's like it's there's a stigma about it, that you're like taking your one in a million shot. Like if you think of, of someone who's a singer, songwriter, you know, you're doing that as a as a child or young person, you'd come home and tell your parents I'm not going to conventional following the conventional path and going to college. I'm going to pursue my degree in acting or my my acting, passion or my music, passion or my songwriting, passion, whatever it is. And I think that because it there's such a minority of people who become successful on a level that people equate with success, like you have to have like an album out to be successful. You have to have a book out to be successful. You know what I mean? There's so much. There's so many different degrees of success within that but I think that that it's it's based on? Well, it's not really legitimate, like, you're just, you know, you're just writing, you know, some some fluffy little songs here or there or you're, you know, you're painting some pretty little pictures here and there that there's no real substance or value or, or monetary piece that you can attach. So that it's like, it's it legitimized. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think that's where a good deal of the issues come from. And, you know, you think of these proper tracks, college leads to job leads to financial security. Well, people are only now just recognizing that that is not the only way. That is not the only path that is not the only measure of success like that, that that dollar sign cannot, cannot be attached to the word success anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it just reminded me of this conversation, my son, my oldest son's 14, and he's just having to start choose his subjects for next year school. So this, you know, the pathway to whatever job he wants to do, they're starting the subjects now. And I keeps my husband's a financial planner. So humans are completely different brains, the way we think about a thing. And I keep saying to him, just do something that you enjoy doing, you know, find the thing you're passionate about, work out, if there's job around that, you know, if there's not one, make one, you know, what I mean? Like, find something that you love to do. And then my husband's like, I'll make sure you get enough money. So it's like, yeah, covering it from both sides. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Because I mean, look, we can't ignore the fact that bills have to be paid. Our kids at some point, down the line are going to have to be self sufficient. They're going out, they're going to need to live on their own, or they're going to have to buy food and gas and, and, you know, support all the things that, you know, are involved in living independently. But it's like, it's it just bums me out, when we attach like, well, you have to do you have to have a six figure job to do that well to mean that, that you are successful. And it's, it's crap. And it's setting our kids up, to be really disillusioned about doing what they really want. It's, you know, it's setting them up to believe that they shouldn't do what they really want. They should do what they really have to do. Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep it real in the sense that our children do have to learn how to support themselves. But at the same time, too, we can't, we can't make them believe that, you know, there's only one way to do that. And there's only one level at which they should aspire to do that. Yeah, that's it, isn't it. The other thing that I think is changing when we're talking about money, and, and things, there's the whole culture, I don't know. I certainly noticed over here, but it's changing now, but this culture on social media of this hustle, and you've got to always be doing something and, you know, I can't think of any, like, Girlboss and all these sort of hashtags. And it's like, you have to be driving really hard. And it's just, it's exhausting. Like, you just think when do you have time when, like, this self care, you know, actually, resting rest is not a reward for doing rest is, you know, should be something that we do naturally, because our bodies aren't supposed to go full bore all the time. You know, that culture around that, I feel like is, is definitely shifting, which is really good. It definitely is. I mean, you know, there's definitely this population that believes, especially these millennials, who believe like, you've got to have a side hustle. And you've got to also have a side hustle. And you've got to be in constant motion, and you've got to be that much more driven and that much more successful and that much more capable. And, and I think that's just coming from a place like in particular with women, it just comes from everything that you and I have already talked about in terms of like, we're kind of fighting for a position we're fighting still, to be taken seriously to be viewed equally, to be respected to, you know, and so it's, it's almost like we just, you know, we have to just go at it a lot harder to be taken even more seriously. And that's unfortunate that we that we kind of innately feel that way Yeah, it's just, it's unfortunate. And I hope that as as time goes on, and we begin to kind of normalize success, you know, you know, across across the gender spectrum, like it's, it's, you know, be just as successful as a man or a woman anything. That's, you know, it's going to take time for, I think, us to let go of that, that internal drive. Because I think it's burning a lot of people out, it's really hurting people out. You know, and I think it's causing people to be, you know, to put themselves in positions that they might not want to put themselves in, because they, you know, or do things in terms of like, jobs and opportunities, just because they feel like they have to versus they want to. Yeah, so hopefully those two scales will eventually balance. Hmm. Yeah. composure of hustle the way we do? Oh, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, it's funny, like, all this stuff that is ingrained in us as, as kids and growing up like, you always had, like college, like we call it University over here, but it doesn't have the same I don't think has the same sort of end goal. Like for you guys, like every, I'm making an assumption, but on TV shows and movies, it's like, everyone goes to college. Over here, uni is not, we don't all go to uni, it's like, if you get a job out of school, that's almost the best thing you can do. But I remember, like, like, my dad worked really long hours. You know, I think a lot of us grew up with that, that nine to five, or, you know, eight to six sort of culture around you, your parents or your your dad working. And it's like, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, actually, I don't really like this. And it's like, you start to no question stuff and see what people around you are doing. I remember the first time I realized that, I had a friend who was only working part time. And like this was when I was, you know, just out of school working as like, how can you do that? Are you supposed to be working full time? This is like, No, it was a foreign concept. From what I'd grown up, we'd say, you know, again, these little changes. And, yeah, well, it's like the whole millennial mindset. Now. And I talk about this a lot with my older daughter in particular, because even though there's only three years in between our girls, it was a, it's a big enough gap that my oldest mindset about certain things is quite different than my youngest. And they're both very, very hard workers. You know, my oldest is in graduate school right now to be a teacher. And she's also working full time and my youngest works full time in the school system. But it's funny, like, you look at the millennial, the millennial mind nowadays, and they're all like, I don't want to be an I'm not going to be in an office, I'm not going to take that job that I'm applying for, if it means I actually have to go into an office or if it means I have to travel, they're like, no, no, I'm really focusing on my work life balance right now. Like that whole generation is not having it at all. And I think too, that you know, and this goes back to one of the, like, if you have to attach a silver lining to what's happened pandemic wise, it's allowed us to do so many things from home that we otherwise just that weren't allowed before. And so it's brought the world much closer, it's made everyone and everything much more accessible as the upside. And, you know, I just look at the way that my children are now and all of these millennials are like, yeah, um, so I've been working from home for like, the last 18 months, and I'm really not planning on continuing my company, if my company is not going to allow us to do that, you know, it's just so funny. You know, and now they're all like, converting vans, and living van life and working remotely from like, deserts and, you know, and, and beaches. And, and I absolutely know that if I had been born now, if I was my 25 year old age, I would 1,000% be working remotely, I would have like a Ford van that was converted, and I would be like on the coast of Australia somewhere down the road from you, and I take home from a van and you know, and and they're they're not settling for that so they things so I guess the reason why I'm saying all that about my own kids is because it's just proof that that that tide has changed. thing that they're prioritizing. They're worse. And they're prioritizing that, that work life balance and that self care a lot more in this generation. And they're not tolerating the idea of the whole, like, nine to five and the way that it used to be like, he's so good, it's wonderful. Yeah, that's interesting about during the pandemic, like all this stuff that people would sit on, that's never possible. You can't do this, and you can't do that. And it's like, actually, you can. It's wonderful. You know, and I don't know, we learned a lot. I mean, it was horrible, still is a horrible thing that, you know, a lot of families and people have gone through, which is been really not very nice. But there has been some positives come out for, for the whole of humanity, I think, looking at things differently and challenging. Yeah. And it's that old saying, like, you know, why do we do it this way? Because we've always done it that way, you know, that, that? And I think that's a real sort of, I don't know, almost a masculine mindset. And I want to say that it sounds nasty, but no, reminds me of something my dad would say. Yeah, no, I get it. I understand why you would say that. It's, it's just because historically, that has been the mindset. That's the way things were for generations. You know, think of the hierarchy who it was that instituted those ideas and those values and you're not wrong. Yeah, I don't want to blame all the boys but we're finger pointing at you guys history. Have you got anything you want to share that you're working on at the moment or future projects coming up? Anything you want to give a shout out to and share? Where people can find you online? And that kind of stuff? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. I think I mentioned a little earlier that one of the things that's got a lot of my focus right now is mental health, and suicide prevention and awareness. And that that actually slides right into the project that I'm working on right now, which is another book that really uses my father's story, the story of my my father suicide, as just a vehicle for starting conversations and for helping people just through my own personal experience, helping people kind of travel that that road to forgiveness, if they're a survivor of suicide loss. And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of deep in the weeds with right now, doing a ton of work on and then working to be a crisis counselor with a crisis agency here in, in the United States, that I'm actually very, very excited about because that kind of all goes hand in hand. So I'm working on that. And just continuing to do lots of speaking and writing about parenting, just the way that I'm doing now on all the outlets here in the States and around, you know, around the world that that help families be happy. So that's what I'm working on. And you can find me anywhere. I mean, you can find me, my website is Lisa sugarman.com. And everything I'm working on is kind of in that one spot. Instagram is Lisa underscore Sugarman, the Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, you can join the vomit booth if you search the vomit booth on Facebook we can I will I will let you in you can just curl it all up oh definitely going to check that out. I'm really really interested in that. That sounds really good. I want all of your moms in your in your community in your area in your part of the world I want to know what's you know, what's affecting you and bringing all this it's like a clown car you can I'll millions of moms and dads and stuff you. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on later. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a really great conversation. I I've loved I've loved every minute of it too. And it's so fun for me to just to especially to hear what's going on in places where I you know, I don't I don't frequent I don't I know know what, you know what's happening in your part of the world the way You do. And so it's it's often fun to find out, you know that some things are different and some things are similar. And at the end of the day like we still It proves my point that no matter where you are and what you're doing as a mom, it's like, we're, you know, we're all part of the same community and the same family here, and we're all dealing with the same stuff. So it's fun to be able to come together and share that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing so openly. And honestly, I really appreciate it. And I know my listeners will appreciate it, too. So yeah, thanks so much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

(Subscribe on iTunes, Spotify , Amazon , Audible , Google podcasts ) Jedda Glynn is a designer and small business owner from Burrungule, South Australia and a mother of 3. Jedda Grew up in a small country town, surrounded by a creative family. She’s been a dancer her whole life, running the Kongorong Calisthenics Club for many years, and recently starting her own small business, The Springs Creative, where Jedda arranges rustic dried flowers, with the help of her young children. We chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life, the joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children and the importance of having a supportive family around her, and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. **This episode contains discussions around domestic violence and an abusive relationship** Connect with Jedda on Instagram Find out about Squib Group Find out more about the Kongorong Calisthenics Club Connect with the podcast here Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Thank you! Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I’m beyond honoured that you’re here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast – can’t wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Ch eck out more episodes .....

Mother Wild - Mother's Day Special A global group of women who believe in mothers mothering themselves. S2 Ep42 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia and many other countries around the world. I am joined by 4 creative mothers, Angeli Gunn , Tasha Miller , Karryn Miller and Carmela Fleury representing Mother Wild - a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their 2 other co-founders Anna af Jochnick and Karin Hesselvik the girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats (both virtually and in real life). 2 years ago the idea for their first book Mother Wild: A Book Of Mothers’ Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills and words to bring the book to life, together with 9 artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children, the true intention is to re-awaken the wild, adventurous spirit in mothers - and not just through the words on each page. In the first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how - by mothering them. ***This episode contains discussions around post natal anxiety*** Mother Wild website / book / instagram Podcast website / instagram The Lost Daughter movie Mercy on the Mother Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, thank you to Danni Reade for narrating. Music is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. Today I present a very special Mother's Day episode to mark the day in the US and Australia. I'm joined by four creative mothers, Anjali Gan, Tasha Mila, Karen Mila, and Camilla Fleury representing mother wild, Mother wild are a global collective of women who believe deeply in helping mothers mother themselves. Along with their two other co founders, Anna F. Chuck, Nick and Karen hustling. The girls facilitate festivals, workshops, courses, monthly activities and retreats, both virtually and in real life. Two years ago, the idea for their first book, Mother wild, a book of mother's Dreams was born. Each one contributed their own unique set of skills to bring the book to life, together with nine artists from 13 different countries, while collectively caring for 32 children during a global pandemic. The result is an inspirational book that has more than one purpose. While the book was designed as a simple bedtime story for children. The true intention is to reawaken the wild adventurous spirit in mothers, and not just through the words on each page. In this first year, all profits from the book will go towards supporting mothers in the best way they know how to run retreats for mothers to Mother themselves. Quotes during this episode are taken from the book, and a big thank you to Danny Reed for narrating music used from a limb joy with permission. This episode contains discussions around postnatal anxiety is this the first time you have more than one person? It absolutely is the fifth. And you don't have just one more you have. I have triplets. Yeah. Could I just take a photo of this? Like so let's see. How's everybody going? Oh, so good. Oh, my pleasure. Thanks, ladies. Sorry, I'm trying not to seem daunted. But I'm like, This is gonna be awesome. Some giggles Yeah. Thank you so much. This is really exciting. I've not just got one but I have got four creative months with me today. Welcome along, everybody. Thank you. Yeah, this is so exciting. We're here today we're celebrating creative mothers all around the world today. Lots of special guests. And we're talking about this amazing book that I've got in my hands, Mother wild and the the amazing group of women behind. We are mother wild. So I'm going to start by talking to Camila. Camila, welcome along. Thank you. Tell us a little bit about yourself where you're from a little bit about your involvement with the book and with the project as well. So I am part French part Spanish, but I was raised moving around quite a bit just because of my father's job and after birth. I think motherhood I don't know if I think Tasha calls it a beautiful transition. It broke me but also made me go deep into I became a very inquisitive spiritual seeker and I did a bunch of things. And I believe it was iOS go I was looking at a ceiling and there were broken knees, and they were about 24. And it was like you need to work with mothers and all of you might be broken. But together, you hold a new roof or a new paradigm. And so I just sought out to work with a couple of moms through a thing called the online moment village. And it was six moms at a time. And from this village, I offered a Wildeman Mastermind course, which these beautiful ladies joined. And from there, it was just magic and predestined. And I did nothing but just show up and let magic unfold. So that's how I actually happened. Wow. So it was really quite like an organic sort of thing. It sort of came from weight. Do you have a background in art before you had your children? And I'm sure I've always been an artist, but no, I got lost in engineering for school and and then I think doing a life coaching training that Tasha and I both did, they made us do vision boards. And then that took me on a vision board journey, which I'm still on on a daily basis, which keeps me sane. So I don't think I'm an artist, per se. Although writing is an art right, so I guess I've always been a writer. Ish. A bad one, but I've always been one. Awesome. All right. Karen, let's go to you. Can you share whereabouts you are in the world? what your background is and your involvement with the book as well? Yeah, I'm, I am originally from New Zealand. I currently live in Japan, and I left New Zealand when I was 20. And I haven't really besides having my two girls there. So they had some claims in New Zealand. I haven't really spent much time living back there. But yeah, so my involvement with the book. Yeah, I mean, it's been such a collaborative process together. And Carmela came up with the beautiful idea. And then we all kind of joined together and worked on it, to bring it to life and be clear with Darren, the idea would have stayed an idea. Like there was enormous momentum behind car and in terms of writing and making it I mean, publishing, editing all of that. So that should be it. She won't say that. But we're very, you know, it's funny, cuz I could like see your face and you're like, hang on, like, What did you say? Yeah. Yeah, no, it's been a beautiful process. Like I am, I was before becoming a mum, I was working as a travel writer for many years. And then I kind of switched and I moved into PR, and part of that was also the stability of PR, when I was working in as a travel writer, it was a little bit like any kind of creative pursuit, sometimes it's the income is high, and sometimes the income is low. And so, you know, like, travel writing was always my joy. And I work with hotels now. So it's still joyful, like, it's still in the travel industry. But I think for me, this project, gave me a chance to kind of flex a different side of creativity for me, whereas, you know, like, I'd been focused on, you know, what I need to do for the clients or what I need to do for the magazine. And this was like, Well, what do I want to do? What do I want to bring into this world? And what's the kind of message that I want to share with moms? And, you know, we had a collective vision, we all wanted to share something with mums, and we all wanted to impact mums. But um, yeah, I think that's like, part of what really excited me about this project, because it was, yeah, just that pure creativity versus having to meet someone else's. And in that, also, you know, we didn't have to meet like a publishers demands, you know, we like we followed our own rulebook when it came to this. You had to leave for two years for a very, very long birthing process. That was, yeah, but yeah, having that complete creative freedom to present whatever you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, that's tremendous. All right, Tasha, over to you. Yeah, I grew up in the United States and I live back here now but I met Carmela first and Tokyo and I was living over there with my family. I became a mom there. And I remember like you might see a meet cute in a movie I remember the first time I laid eyes on her she was just all hair and legs in this big pregnant belly and I just thought I don't whatever she's got I want some of that was just so magnetic. And it's still like a pinching me listening to all of these ladies talk and just thinking this is really my wildest dreams, not just the friendship, but the fact that we get to create and collaborate and go on this wild ride together is just, it's so energizing and invigorating. And I you know, for me, I don't know that I would have ever called myself an artist. Esther before having the opportunity to work with these women, they loved to travel, but I look, you know, I loved exploring, I loved making things, but I think, you know, we talk a lot together about uncoiled potential, and that inside all of us, there's just so much wrapped up in there and particularly under, like the weight of motherhood, it's so easy to sort of shrink and putting, put that part of ourselves, you know, back on the shelf in the back burner. But what I found with working with these women and then continuing to connect with other creative women who are mothers, too, is it It not only isn't uncoiled it's just like this fire that burns now and you know, a lot of times I feel like the such a construct or an idea in our minds that you know, we need to hold on to our idea of hold on to things till the right time, you know, to be able to get out there and do that and, or keep waiting or or be afraid that life is passing a spy or somebody else is going to kind of take our whatever, seize the moment, and it can create a lot of tension, and conflict inside and what we found with them. And these are like the most generous, incredible women but also every mother we've met along the road has been the most incredible, generous creative woman is like, when you see someone burning bright, it just lights you up more. And the more it's like a generative quality so I can look at so many things in my life now go yeah, I've always been an artist actually. Like, we're all in coke, Coke co creation with our lives, you know, and and looking for ways to express express that so yeah, it is. So it's it's been really dreamy. Yeah. And I must say you're you're you've got such an infectious way of talking about it. You can't help but get like, swept up with it. It's it's awesome. It was like a stoke, right? Like, I feel like for surfers when they're on the party wave. I'm like who's joining us? This is so good. That's it. Listen, I love that. All right, and finally to Anjali, welcome. Hi, thank you for having us. This is such an honor to be here. Yes, I share a little bit about your background where you're from. Yeah, just a bit of your involvement with the book as well. Yeah, absolutely. And before I do that, I have to say about these magnificent women. Carmela is like our visionary and our connector or community builder. With current the way she was in the writing process. It was like watching magic unfold right before your eyes, she would come up with most beautiful things. And so much of this book has like her heart just stamped on these pages. And she is so beyond organized because she helps make things happen. We wouldn't be here right now if it wasn't for her. And Tasha, even though she doesn't, or hadn't seen herself as an artist, she takes the most beautiful pictures. And she puts together the most incredible videos and she captures like heart and soul and spirit. And she found so many of our illustrators, and she just has this magic radar for finding talent in all its forms. And so I just wanted to give them a shout out before I dive into this because I really Yeah, I mean, it's everyone brings so many strengths and talents and gifts, that I actually think this is not just a once in a lifetime gathering, it's like a once in multiple lifetimes that you get just this beautiful confluence of talent coming together. And it's incredible that I look back on this and think, you know, during two of the hardest years of most of our lives, that we had this really incredible project we were working on. And for me, it gave me so much joy. And also it was a story of source of strength and inspiration. So I was born and raised in Canada, and I loved, loved traveling, and I still do. But once I became a mom, it became even more important to travel and see more of the world. So I was traveling in Japan, which is where I met Carmela and like Tasha said she just has this magnetic quality where it's like que you. You say the words and I will be there because we're going to make dreams come true. And the heart of this book really feels Like, we want to make sure that mothers don't get weighed down with the demands of motherhood and whatever it is that lights them up, or brings them joy, we want them to remember that. And, as well as they're reading this book, it's their children who understand the importance of their mothers having their own dreams, and finding their own joy in places outside of motherhood. And that is so important. The book I love on the back, six authors and nine artists from 13 Different countries created this book virtually while caring for 30 children during a global pandemic. That's just like, I don't know how else you could say this is amazing. No, it actually ended up being 32 children because it took so long for the book to come out to were born and the process the same mom, so there's two. So you could give them a shout out and then current who are not here. And they they helped get illustrators and help get our ducks in a row and funding for Kickstarter. And so they they're here in spirit, they can can you each share with us what what sort of your pages were in the book of what your your dreams are in the book, we really came together to to write and bounce off of each other. So now when we go through the words, like it's, it is hard to discern, oh, that was definitely you know, my thing. But I think that that has kind of been the spirit of how we've worked together the entire time. Of there's no ownership over one thing they there is not only a generosity, but a tremendous amount of trust. And we really looked like I always joke, I got my fountain of bad ideas like I like overflowing with them. But I use that term loosely because we love the idea of like nothing is off limits. You never know, you know what you say? Even if it's 50 iterations down the line, how that might have inspired somebody else's art or else's ideas in the world. And so in terms of that, but I will say the dream that I personally feel incredibly connected to is a beautiful illustration done by aura Lewis, who was our first Illustrator to jump on board and say yes. And it's mother's in a field of flowers. And it's all about mothers coming together and community and supporting each other supporting children running around wild and free. And when I look at that, I'm just like, that feels like home. Like that's the direction I'm going, you know, if only if only in my mind. Yeah. So So basically, like you're explaining not It's not each page isn't one person's it's you've all thrown your ideas together, and come up with it collectively. So Alison, if I can add, I think we've had windows of between like, because we're not, we weren't on the same plus we had the Europeans. And so it was over three, basically one of two or three were either waking up or falling asleep when we were all together. So we had maybe a window of 10 minutes when we were all clear headed. And so but just the act of showing up. And this is for mothers who are listening, just the act of I mean, I think we're just being each other's accountability. Coach, we just by showing up, we would just maximize our time together rather than like, oh, I would like to write a book. But I'll start tomorrow. And when it's just yourself, you might just put it off a little more than when you're showing up. And we're like for the next 10 minutes. We're going to brainstorm and so we would brainstorm. And what was funny and I remember Anjali, you know, when you said like watching card from a distance, like magic happened unfolding, like I feel like that happened at some point, because we sat down with, I think we had 120 dreams that we had all come up with together. And what we did is remove the location because it was like Thailand, Bali, this the other, you know, we remove the geographical location because the feeling was kind of the same, you know, dancing in the desert in Africa, you could be doing it in Australia. You know, it's just remove the geographical location and kind of bring in like, Who wants to go in the snow who wants to go in the ocean who wants to go deep sea, you know, and CDC diving who wants to, there were all these characteristics that were the same in all these different places. So we actually just collect you know, combined all of them and I think we came down to 18. And it's funny because we asked a couple of friends along the way and we all had similar daydreams or similar adventurous dreams of things that we'd like to do. So go ahead card on I was just gonna say to like, we wanted to make sure that we had like the big dreams, you know, like the maybe the once in a lifetime dreams, but we also wanted to have the dreams like just being able to have a bath by yourself without being interrupted. So I think it's just the act of dreaming versus what the dream is. And you know, we kind of say that as well, like whether you go off and do it or you know, like, it's not the point, it's just reminding yourself that you know, to dream. And I think you know, like to just give Anjali, a little shout out as well, since she said such beautiful things about us before. Like, I think, with this process, as well, rest was also like a really important one that we wanted to you know, they think we get caught up in doing these things, big things in activity, but especially as a mom, like resting and taking that time of solitude is really important. And that was one of the things that we wanted to get across. And one of the things that throughout this whole process like Angela was really good at reminding us about, yeah. Self Care. Yeah, self care guru, for sure. So Angela has got it nailed down. She is the cream of the crop when it comes to mothers. She's one of Yeah, one in a million. Love you girls. And I love it makes me so happy to see mothers taking exquisite care of themselves. So anywhere along the way, when we can remind each other that it just feels really, really good. Yeah, for sure. I actually saw a quote the other day on Instagram, and it was something about I can't remember verbatim, but it was about we see rest as a reward for something rather than as a part of just general life. Yeah. It's so true, isn't it? It's like, we have to get all this done. And then we can take the break. But no, we have to prioritize rest. And Alison, in creating this and even just creating mother wild, we we set out to define a few things that are really important to us. And one of the things we realize is like with that grind culture and with that hustle culture, it didn't quite feel feminine. And when Carmelo was talking about the new paradigm, you know, that was something that would come up often is how can we do this in a way that maybe feels more feminine or feels more delightful, or we're not necessarily trying to get to those same goals that we've been taught to believe are markers of success. And so Karen said something really beautiful. She's like, Guys, Friendship first. And so that kind of was like set the tone for us to take care of not only these friendships, but to take care of ourselves in the process of birthing this book. And Tasha would always say, Guys, it's the journey, right? So like any hard lessons and challenges and bumps is like, okay, it's part of the journey, and even the rest and the self care that factored into so many of our meetings and moments and even our time away from one another, that it kind of has got woven into the fabric of our lives, because this is how we want to do things and approach life now. Not just Yeah, yeah, we really want to walk the walk. Yeah. Have you noticed that your lives have changed since you've done this in the way that you care for yourself? Everyone's nodding. Yeah. At the very beginning of our, you know, when we first came together, and I feel like I'd love you to explain it in more detail, but Carmela brought this analogy, she said, Okay, we're a flock of birds, you know, and if you look up in the sky, birds flying formation, and there's always one at the front, the one that has the most energy, let's say, but when that bird needs to fall back, it falls back. And without any fuss. Another one comes forward and takes that so so she's like, so when you need to fall back, fall back. And when you want to fly harder and faster and flap harder and faster. Go to the front, there's no hierarchical thing. Again, it avoids boils down really to like a tremendous amount of trust. And it's not that I just that I like, trust that these ladies are going to be brilliant in what they do and all of those things, but I also really trust that they'll respect and understand and encourage me when I'm tired and life is demanding and a kid is sick, or I just need to lay down that that's going to be okay. But we're I think it's the educational system that kind of teaches us like oh, you know, get grades don't show your neighbor like while you're doing the test. And and I think that that that sense of collaboration is lost along the way. But scientists do show and birds don't know and they're not reading the scientific facts, but they know that by flying together, they will reach they'll not only go faster, further, but they'll reach together the destination they set because I don't know how they communicate again, but they reach it. So for survival. We need to Uh, and I do think creativity is needed. It's vital, vital force for any human school, you know, just by flocking together, we're reaching a goal together. And it's more fun. It's more lucrative. It's more everything. Why don't more women do this? We thrive in community. Yeah, absolutely. In my dream, children run wild and free. Mothers thrive together in community. I like talking about mum guilt. That sounds really nice. You want to go there? Let's go there. Yeah, let's do. It was the first to take that one up. And quick question, Alison, do you steer away from profanity? Or can we just oh, gosh, no, go for it. Okay, we can talk. I thought I remembered that. Yeah. I'll figure it out. first. You first Oh, okay. So just recently, on our Instagram, we had a post with like, a whole bunch of middle fingers up saying fuck off mom guilt. So this is definitely a topic that we discuss amongst ourselves. And for me, I don't have mom guilt. As in, I don't invite mom guilt in to stay for tea. That toxic voice is so not welcome. In my mind. It's a fucking waste of space. Bravo, I believe. Thank you. Yeah, put it in a timeout or just don't like it's permanent timeout. Because I believe I'm doing the best I can at any given moment. It's a fallacy to think that we can be at all all the time. So my intention is to be present. And it comes down to this. I really fucking love myself. And I also really care about my well being. And feeling guilty does not serve my well being. And it does not improve me as a human in any way. Guilt is for when you're doing something wrong, something bad, something malicious. So when a mom feels guilty about going out for a date night, instead of being with her kid, you're trying to tell me that her pleasure and her well being isn't a value. Or when a mom is with her kids and she's not working? She should feel bad about that. No. How does that help her in any way? So I just think it's absolute shit. And we have the choice to value ourselves and try not to be everything to everyone all the damn time. document that. Sorry. Yeah, I was clapping I was. Luckily I was muted. So distract from your beautiful, beautiful words. Yeah. I love that. Can you send that to me, please? Because that is amazing. I feel like I need to duck up next. I actually, I think you hit the nail on the head. Like the thing about presence because I think that you know like, that's when Mama guilt starts to enter when you're thinking about the future or the past. But you know, like that, that one line you talked about with presents really stuck with me there. That's the key. And Carmela, I know you're itching. To hear what you have to say. You think more I think I'm so happy I'll listen that you can't you ask this in every podcast because it is what terrifies women and and mothers from moving forward and it's that I don't know if it was passed on from generations. It definitely once you you do the work on delete Justin, things unlock and you can finally walk your path. I the first piece I wrote on medium and we're happy to I'm sure we all have our own versions of our own battling that that that demon of mom guilt. But um, I wrote a piece my first piece on medium was Dear Mama guilt, your fucking pitch. And it was I just talked about how Prince Siddhartha left at 29 to renounce it. Yeah, he left his family of origin for seven years. He left his wife with a newborn son behind. And he came back from meditating under the treatment and met his seven year old child, no biggie, what else he was substances subsequently named the Buddha, the enlightened one. And then, you know, it was at a time when I was like, I had a four year old and a two year old and I was about to go on to one of many things that the spiritual curiosity seeker was looking for. And it was just like, Oh, these voices and it was just like one man along the way, who was like, Oh, where are your kids and who's looking after them? And it's like, why are you leaving them? And I remember like, oh my gosh, he's right. Am I doing this? And then it was like, wait a minute, I have given so much already through the pregnancies through the daily mundane things that I can ask for little bit of time away and I didn't need the permission of my husband, they were thumbs up, didn't need the permission of my parents, they didn't know where I was going. And, and it was just culture at large that I just had to bat away. You know, he was just asking me a normal question, but I took it really personally and I had to have that argument back. So this poor man, I think it was at a chicken boat for a boat ticket. And I was like, I've been doing this and that and he's like, Okay, give me your ticket keep going. But then that thought behind if one at once I did that, that job on Julie did a bedding her away. I mean, it was just like, Alright, let's go walk the Camino. Let's go do this. Let's go. It was just one after the other. So I recommend moms to do that work first. And then things will unfold. Hmm, huh. Well said Well said, sir. I'm just conscious that my the way I'm looking here is changing quite a bit because of my you're enlightened. My son likes it. I love it. It's a halo. I'm just gonna close my brain. Literally glowing. blinding you all in a minute. I love your background. Allison. I'm so intrigued me. We're just lose back there. There we go. Yeah, I do a lot of different things for fun. Like my my core, I'm a singer and a songwriter. But I do all sorts of things just to switch off. So there's a lot of painting stuff and that there's all my put my kids paintings up there because I find that incredibly inspiring when I'm writing and, and I've got ever up there as well, because they're pretty amazing. Yeah, I love it. It's like a living vision board. Right? We make a lot of vision board. Yeah. It's like my whole my vision wall. And then I've got you can't see it, because it's out of picture. But real, real artists work that I've framed that I've purchased. So I've got like, that really awesome stuff over here is like the seven. Love it. But it's that whole idea of like to be beautiful. You have to take in beauty. Right? Yeah, absolutely. And we just were taught to think that that's really frivolous. But that's like the thing that gives us vital energy, you know, and in a generative like reciprocal relationship, if we're going to keep creating, whether it's creating art for others, or it's creating snack boxes and creating a plan to get three kids in a minivan before 8am, whatever it is, right? We're constantly meeting some sort of need or demand or whatever. Like, we've got to fill ourself up with beauty. And I think along with rest, it's incredibly valuable. And I always love coming across a woman who's killing herself often that way. It's like striking. In my dream, the drums and my body are one. I dance wildly, under the blazing sun. Yeah, I wanted to share too, and I'm gonna butcher the quote, so maybe somebody can help me. But a quote that we talk about a lot is the Carl Jung one that one of the greatest burdens on a child is the unlived life of the mother or the parents or however it was phrased. And that's for me, and I think a lot of probably the four of us here is kind of a compass to come back to, when, you know, Mama guilt inevitably rears its head, or I'm finding that tension within just like, I, I'm not going to be perfect. I don't you know, I also have take issue with the whole construct of a good mom and a bad mom or whatever, like, you know, I think that that's really loaded as well. But basically, at the end of the day, there's so much like I, I can try my best to be as healthy as I can and curate a beautiful childhood for my children. But at the end of the day, they're going to experience it in their own way. And that's not mine to choose, right. But the one thing that I can control is I'm not going to give them a mom, who is resentful, who is depleted, and who you know, is is yeah, just just unfulfilled and unsatisfied in her own pursuit in life, that part I can do and my hope is from there, those are kind of some keys and some tools for them to do that in their own way in life. Thanks, amazing reactions. We love we love giggling we love having fun. We throw dance parties all the time virtual dance parties 80s Dance parties. I mean, we want to feel that pleasure and that joy in our lives and we want to share it with others. And so along with rest, that's kind of one of our core principles or beliefs, if we're gonna get kind of corporate there, you know that it's like, we like taking deep breaths, dancing together, laying down and, and really supporting each other as much as we can. And like Carmela said, showing up. But what's interesting is that when we offer resting or dancing, or move, you know, mothers and we're generalizing here, but tend to run away a little bit. Whereas we're like, we're going to do a really intense intellectual, like, professors from the University of Jerusalem are coming to talk about the taboos of motherhood, like everyone shows up. So again, I don't know if it's something to do with our educational system that values research and, and you know, have lots of slides and lots of proof over just easy, playful, joyful, fun dancing, without a mental conclusion at the end. So that's an interesting, and arrest Oh, my goodness, mothers are like, not using my time efficiently, there's no chance you're wasting in my dream, I sail across the sea. destination unknown. Adventure beckons me. Color and before we move on to the next topic, is there anything you wanted to add to the mom guilt soup mix that we've got going on? You know, it's something we've we've, we've talked about internally so much, but yeah, I think through this process of working with these amazing woman is how I've really overcome Hmong girl. And I think, you know, they kind of let talks about, like, what we've been brought up to believe and stuff. And I definitely for the longest time, and I've talked about this internally, like, had my self worth tied up with productivity, and whether that's productivity through work, or whether that's how much I'm giving something children. And, you know, I'm on this constant hamster wheel, whether it's with Yeah, with all parts of my life. But yeah, like coming together, and like exploring these topics with these woman, and, you know, through the other things that we run with other amazing woman and stuff I've really come to learn, you know, like, it's not doing anyone justice, when I feel guilty about these things. Least of all my kids, you know, and especially like, I have two young girls, and it's something I don't want to model. Like, I want them to go out there. And, you know, like, do what they want to do and do it unapologetically. So how can I expect them to do that? If I'm not doing that? Yeah, that is so important, isn't it? And I think it's it I think if we're gonna change the world, we've we've got to be able to model it for the next generation so they can continue it on. I think that's so important. Is it Yeah, residue, just stop here. Do you want to say that we have relapses we have? Oh, yes. All into mom guilt. On a daily basis, were like, Oh, my goodness, I missed this moment. Because I was doing that and, and just letting letting go of them. I do think just that introspection of like, Oh, I think I did. I overdid it, I gave to too many people at once. So we really encourage mothers to take solid, you know, solo retreats and just a little pockets of recharging, re re re evaluating the you know, adding creativity and what an arrest and play and things that recharges Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's not not dwelling on it as well. Like I think I've got better you know, when you have the relapse that you don't beat yourself up about it, you know, like, Yeah, I think yeah, we're all work in progress. Yeah, absolutely. I had a I had a therapist I started seeing this year and I, you know, finally blocked at the time and she would do telehealth, I have three really young kids and so I'm like, okay, you know, I cut this one hour right and but that hour leading up to it be so stressful because you kind of do all the things and get them so set up and you know, when I'd arrived there and be exhausted and then our be up and I'd be like Okay, I gotta jump back into it. And she said to me, she's like, whether you can schedule five extra minutes or 30 extra minutes or an hour and what it all what do you do, all you do is lay there or you score your even whatever it is. He's got to give yourself that room that pause to integrate. And it was so simple, but I literally hadn't considered that you know, it's just how much can I squeezing. And now when I look at my schedule, and I'm probably the biggest offender with relapsing in a lot of ways, but I look at how can I give that little bit of space? Or if there's a lot that I can give, that's even better, because we have to be able to integrate, otherwise, we just holding on to so much all the time. It's no release, until we explode, our body breaks down. Yep, that's so true. That's difficult physical boundaries. I remember a mom was just like, had the kids at the same age and we were meeting and hers. She had like this peaceful salt lamp and like, she was just in her place. And my kids were hanging on asking for food. And I was like, why? Like, they're the same age. Like, it's not like, why do you mind need more than yours. And she's just like, they know that this is my space. And I was like, Oh, I got the salt lamp. And it has my dream, I speed through an open space. I howl as the wind whips my face. All right, so another big topic I love to talk about with my guests is identity. So the way that the concept of your own identity changed when you became a mother? Would anyone like to start us off on that? I'll dive in. I don't know what I'm gonna say. I'll just dive in. I don't know, I want to come back to like what Camilla said in the beginning of quoting Tasha about this beautiful transformation. I think, you know, like, for me, becoming a mum, like, during the whole pregnancy process, I was so consumed with what was happening inside me that I hadn't really thought ahead to what would happen when the baby came out. And I think, you know, like, I, I really had in my head that, like, when I had this child, like, that was not that it was it for me, but I would give it everything, you know, like, I just really had that in my mind that I had to give up. It was definitely that kind of mentality. And then I think like, within a week, I'm like, Oh, I don't want to give myself up. You know, like, I'm like, I'm exhausted and everything, but I'm like, I'm like, okay, that's not the version of motherhood, that like I want to have, and then connecting with these amazing woman, you know, and like, just finding people with similar. Yeah, you know, we just, we think similarly about motherhood, you know, that it's not this martyrdom, it's, you know, they that you still want to be your own person, you know, you're not, you're expanding as a person. You're not giving up, you know, and I think it was the hugest transformation, and I don't think I would be, I think it was a good transformation for for one, you know, like, what we're doing is all about mothers and I wouldn't we wouldn't be doing any of this if we weren't mothers ourselves. Because we've gone through the whole process. But yeah, it's, uh, oh, come on. I will add, and I don't know if anyone who had more than one felt the same way. I felt like from zero to one was a massive like, whoa, tidal wave. How will my I mean, I think suffering postpartum anxiety for sure. And then the second one, didn't feel it that much. It was like, oh, no, I can I can be a human too. And I remember when I had my first one, a friend that I used to work with. She was like, What are you doing? And I was like, I'm drowning in motherhood, in the early days of motherhood. And she's like, I knew it. Like you're one of those brilliant people who like has given up everything for motherhood and like, we need you. We need you to leave. You know, she had just read Sheryl Sandberg like lean in I was like, I Ali Wong, and I was like, I don't need to lean in, I need to lay the fuck down. I'm tired. And I remember being like, I felt like I was letting her down. But I was like, there's no other thing that could be doing right now than what I'm doing and wallowing in it. Whereas for when my daughter was born, it was a very different energy. It was definitely more and I think that's probably what women have when they have multiple choices like the first one you're like, oh, and then it gets a little bit easier, but maybe not. I think I've had mom I've heard of moms who have the third child was like they it took it took them down. Tasha or Anjali, would you like to add anything to that? What can I say? I always like to tell this story. So when my daughter was about my first child was six weeks old and I motherhood and postpartum just hit me like a tidal wave. I mean, the only way I can describe the level of anxiety is I constantly felt like I was in the middle of this ocean with storm When the waves all around me just treading water and just trying to hold up my baby and keep her from drowning, it was It surprised me, because I always assumed that everything would feel so natural. And that I would, yeah, that was really kind of where my unfolding would have been there with this title of motherhood. And, you know, it was more complex than that. And I think that was my real first sort of understanding of how we can all contain multitudes that it can be the most wonderful, beautiful thing and also, it can be so incredibly painful at the same time, and is that once I could kind of allow for that, I feel like that I might, I've been able to expand so much more and allow for so many more things to be true at the same time, but it's lucky with my husband just so anxious, so exhausted all the things like you're saying Carmela with that particular that transition to being a mom. And I'm like, Oh, I just feel like I'm failing. I feel like, you know, everything I'm doing is not the right thing. I'm so worried about this. And he just looks at me and he goes, it doesn't matter. And I'm like, What the fuck do you mean? Like, this is literally the only thing that matters, like everything and I do in life is all not you like gonna be measured. It's like how well I I'm performed motherhood, basically. And he went on to say he's like, it doesn't matter. Because you're the mother, she has let go of this idea of being a good mother or a bad mother. Those are just constructs, no matter what, your her mother. So that's all you can do is just be that. And I was still quite pissed off at the moment, like feeling really misunderstood. But those were some of the like, wisest words that really took a bit to seep in, but became that place not only in motherhood, did I start to let go of this idea that I needed to perform something so well, that I could really just be me and get really curious about who I was never given any given moment. And just kind of yeah, a lot allow myself to come out a little bit more in ways that before becoming a mom, I don't think I even really had the awareness of how much I think I was holding back and meeting others validation. Hmm, it's very good. Tasha, I love it. I love when you talk about containing multitudes. Because I think it's something that we often think it's either A or B, right? And it's like, no, it's a and b, c, and d, so many. For me, my creative energy comes from dance. So I've always been a dancer, there's a running joke in my family that I can dance before I could walk. And I've always loved choreographing dances in my head, and I like to perform them because I don't have to worry about controlling other people in their tempo and anything. And for me, motherhood kind of felt like stepping into a dance in partnership with my child. And I was very lucky in the early phases of motherhood to have my husband who's had children before. And so he came with this very calm, reassuring energy. And I just remember feeling like I had no expectations about how anything was going to be or how anything was going to go or what it could look like, it could look like what it should look like. And it was the most freeing thing because it allowed me to really just step into that role with like, my whole heart, and really enjoy it. And then in the last couple of years, there's been a shift if this kind of sense of like, oh, there's this independence. And there's this growth for both of us. And now it's starting to feel like I can dance on my own again, a little bit more. And so that's been really nice is finding that rhythm in our lives, where it's like, I was there when I felt like I needed to be the most. And now I can look beyond that, and get excited about what the future holds. But being a mother now is so massively a part of my identity because of the work we do together. Yet. We never ever talk about parenting, our kids come up, but it's really about us and introspection and kind of what that looks like in this chapter of our lives. So there's been an evolution and for me, it didn't come with a sense of struggling against that. It came with kind of just saying, Okay, it's like it's a dance. And I think when you try to give it a little bit more ease a little bit more grace, and you don't try to control things as much. In my experience, that's kind of been that sweet spot and feeling like, oh, okay, there's a time for everything. There is not this sense of needing to know all the answers, which has been really, really nice, especially in the last little while, we've all dealt with a lot of uncertainty. So kind of not having to know everything right now. But knowing that we are there to get there, like we show up together, Tasha has this really beautiful phrase where she talks about companion plants? Tasha, could you elaborate on that, because I feel like that's what I'm trying to say. But you say much more eloquently. I have to give credit where credit is due, I was, like, just introduced, I've never gardened until I moved to an island where there's just people garden like crazy here. So I've been learning a lot. And there's a mother here in particular, I'm going to shout her out. Her name is Rachel Phillips. And if you live on Whidbey Island, you know her, she's just sunshine mother of three young boys. And she talked about the idea of companion plants, how there are certain plants that grow better next to each other. And so that's something that we together really talk about, and think about and really find to be true. And think of each other as our companion plants that when we're together, we just we get more of the nutrients we need. We exchange ideas, we exchange energy, and we just watch each other bloom, it's and it's incredible. I love that, I completely relate to that, because I my parents used to have a plant nursery, so I know all about companion planting and how, you know, you might put something next to something else, because that plant attracts the bugs away from this other one or, you know, that kind of stuff. And it's interesting hearing all your different views and the way you speak about things. And the same, this is the same for all mothers is it some people will find things really easy. And some other people, I guess, because of their the way they've been brought up or the way they've been parented find things really challenging. So being able to, you know, when Angela, you were talking about, you know, allowing things to happen and not control things I can see that would be very hard for someone like me, who likes to know what's happening next, and what's coming up next. So it's like you can bounce off each other and support each other. Yeah, that that analogy of the companion funding is really awesome. Love it. And it takes some of like, the pressure off to write, like, it all goes down boils down to like, I just kind of have to show up and do my thing. Like, you know, a plant isn't like, think about like, how am I going to do like, it just it just happens and and we we think about nature quite a bit when we're sort of, you know, exploring a lot of these ideas and concepts and just like how can we live life in a way that is generative, regenerative, you know, so that we can utilize our energies in the best ways and look to nature, you know, things go fallow, and they need to go fallow takes rest when it needs to blooms when it needs to. And there's just so much wisdom there to be drawn upon. And it's a huge source of inspiration. But it's hard to shift and do that by yourself. Right? It really, really helps to have other people who are not only walking the past, but who who who inspire you and remind you, you know that Tasha has coined a brilliant term per mama culture. Great work credit. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, yeah. Play on the permaculture, that's brilliant. In my drain, I take a journey within. I meditate in a forest and a cheeky monkey swings in. So just like you guys to talk a bit more about, like, you've talked about things that you've done together the different sort of events, I suppose. That's the right word things that the group does. If there's someone out there that's listening, who thinks I need to know more about this? Can you share a bit more about the logistics, I suppose? Like, where do they go? What's the sort of things they're going to expect that kind of stuff? Everyone's looking at you. Oh, okay. All right, then. I'm like, I'm looking at everyone. Um, Okay, then there's many different ways and I think we're, if you want in a couple of hours, we're announcing the mommies, which is the Grammys for moms. So there's tons of free events that we'd like to just for moms who, who, sometimes it feels like too much like let's introspect, let's write, let's find out about ourselves. It's like, verily, just so we do things that feel a little bit easier to access. You. We have next is a monthly mother, the mother monthly, where you just get a taste of community, we're currently revamping current Do you want to say a little bit more about mother to Mother monthly? Because she, it was her I had, I had a feeling it put me on the spot with that. Yeah, I think mother, the mother monthly, we've just done one full year, and we're going to take a month break. And we're relaunching. And in the spirit, you know, one of the things that we wanted to do with mother, the mother monthly is build community. And so in this next iteration we're bringing more mothers on. And it's also the aspect of flying in a flock. So we can share the load a little bit more easier. Because we want to do other things as well. We're gonna have more mums. But with a previous version of mother, the mother monthly, we just kind of, I guess our tagline was like, we wanted to introduce mums who were doing cool shit. So each month we had a theme. And then we would bring on different mums. And they would talk about the topic and we would have like a movement session, then we would have more of the chance to talk it through. And then we would also have an open conversation, which was one of the most popular, I think sessions because it was just our chance to chat about things. And kind of going back to Tasha, how she was talking about nature and incorporating nature, like we followed the seasons in the northern hemisphere, so we kind of like have been wintering and resting and that and now we're kind of coming into spring again. But yeah, and also like our internal seasons was a big thing that we want to follow with mother, the mother monthly. So with the menstrual cycle in that so we're bringing all that kind of into it. I don't know if I really should talk too much about the next version of other than other months, because we're kind of finalizing a few of the details. Well, we there's a lot of virtual offerings, but we are also pivot towards, in we haven't actually met all together in 30 years of working together. So we're pivoting towards doing retreats, which we we did before. And now that COVID is opened up we have one coming up in Sweden, the summer, there'll be whipped be there's there's many things in the pipeline, but we really know how valuable and we get, you know, we give each other permission by showing up in person with each other to work on the things that are important. And reprioritize and get support. So that's that's the plan. Hope we get to listen. Yeah, I think the easiest thing is probably just to go to our website, and to subscribe to the newsletter as well. And our Instagram feed is the most up to date. And yeah, the brilliant Tasha and Anjali run that that social media side of things, and they're they're better at keeping things up to date than maybe we are on our website. And then, of course, as we've mentioned before, too, we also just published our book mother wild a book of mother's dreams, that we've worked in collaboration with nine incredible illustrators from all over the world. And we kind of like, gave him some words gave him carte blanche, like, like interpret this how you want and they came back with stuff beyond our wildest dreams. And we're really proud and excited. And we've come up Carmela who introduced a project initially and she said, You know, there's so many big heavy books which have which have of course incredible value as well. But we wanted to make something that was light and distilled in something that mothers could could read with their children. So we say it's a it's a bedtime book, designed to awaken mom was wild dreamer with ANSYS got that dual purpose there. And we're really excited. And it's been really fun to hearing back from people as it kind of opens the conversation because a lot of times it's hard to remember like, oh, yeah, what is my dream? You know, what? What would I like to do? What you know, if, if there were no limits and work from there, and yeah, it's really beautiful to watch that unfold and other women. Yeah, it's, it almost sounds like we're talking about the guilt before it almost sounds like a, like a selfish pursuit. It's like you're a mum now. You've got to do this stuff. There's no time to stop and think about what you want. What's the bigger picture for you? And it's just I think it's is a really clever idea that you can read this book with your child. They go to bed and then it's your time and you've already switched on. You know, this thinking, oh, yeah, that's right. I really wanted to do this or I really wanted to do that. So it's, it's like, right Oh, off you go. Like now it's your turn sort of thing. So it's really, really clever. I really love like, I'm so grateful that I've got my copy, like, thank you so much. Thank you, I just, it's on one hand, I don't and I don't want this to sound rude anyway, but it's, it's such a simple idea, right? It's a book the theory to children, but the outcome of it and what's contained in it is so immense and so limitless. It's just like Bravo ladies, it is amazing. That means that that means everything because you know, it's it's fun to do these projects, and it's fun to connect. But really at the heart of it what we want is just that little bit of space to open up inside a mother right like this is the most exciting trip will ever take is is internally getting to know ourselves, right? All of that other stuff is really just to facilitate that deep dive is Allison, can we ask you put you on the spot a bit? Like what's your dream? A dream? Maybe? Yeah, I would have to say the one the one where the the mums on stage. That is That is me when I saw that. I was like, Oh, that takes me back to when I was a kid and I used to pretend to be Madonna. And I Yes. We have Madonna fans in the group. There's a lot of enthusiasm here. Yeah. So this is my like I was born in 78. So I might be you know, a little bit older than you ladies. I'm not sure. But I used to have the old hairspray Ken and I used to pretend I was on stage and then I used to pretend I was getting an award so I'd have my my speech for collecting my Grammy or whatever. I don't think I knew about the Grammys then when I was a kid but no, that was my thing. So yeah, that's me on say doing my thing. Oh, I love it. Brilliant. Well, you're an incredible singer. I got to hear a little bit of your stuff before you're amazing. I'm glad we did. That was going to be the cut off dream we were we were on the fence on keeping it or not. So we were really lucky that you resonate. And you are invited to the to the mommies in a couple of hours you you can get your Madonna Grammy award award your mana? Madonna Madonna. Yeah. In my dream, I stand on stage. The band's lifts me up as I sing out my rage. Are you ready? Current said, because, you know, at some point, you go down this like rabbit hole of like, what makes a successful book? And do we want to go into the children's category? And then we do should we pitch it and then you know, then you go down. They're like, oh, we need this many followers. And we need to have this impact. And we need to sell this many copies. And we need to do all this promotion where like, Does this feel right to us? And we're like, no backtrack back. And Karen said a sentence she's like, we can measure our impact by how I can't remember the exact words you use car and maybe you remember better. But it was something like we can we can measure our success by the impact of like that space that mothers open up within and it can be just one mother it can be it doesn't have to be numbers. As long as we've connected with a handful of others along the way, I think that we will feel successful, quote unquote. Yeah, Karen, did you Karen sorry. Did you want to add to that, too? And I just Yeah, I guess just reiterating that. Like, I think that's a big drive. And you know, like, we yeah, we've kind of learned and I think especially through mother, the mother monthly that it feels more organic and it feels authentic. And it feels better for us when we actually have connection. And it's you know, we don't we're not so concerned about the big reach, we want it to just be meaningful. Like that. That's the bigger driver. And yeah, and I think that was really nice. Like we through this whole process. We kept coming back together and just reevaluating, and Angelique kind of briefly mentioned their core principles like you know, and one of the core principles there was the dancing the laying down and that but was keeping shit simple. And so each time we kind of get when into that masculine energy, where we really started to think about, you know, those key markers that we should hit and what we should do and how we need to get, you know, all this done. We were like, Nah, that doesn't feel good. You know, like, and it's a passion. You know, this is a big passion for all of us. And we don't want to do it, if it doesn't feel good, even though sometimes it's hard. You know, like, at the end of the day, like it brings us all joy. And yeah, we've got to do it in a way that's authentic to us. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, there's a difference. When you say it's hard. There's a difference between hard work and you know, having to get something done, then actually going against what you genuinely believe, and makes you feel uncomfortable when you start seeping into that. areas that you might think like you said, it's just doesn't feel right for us. So yeah, you've honored that which is really commendable. There's something that I've, it's really interesting, when I talk to moms, I get things tend to go in cycles. So the last thing for interviews I've had, have all talked about this concept of value, and what how society places value on things. And this monetary idea that especially with creatives, you're not creating things to go out and kill a lot of, you know, some are making their business and their livelihood to sell them. You're creating because it's something that is meaningful for you. And you're sharing, again, that connection with people. And I think what we've sort of got to what we've come to the conclusion and feel free to share your thoughts on this, that this, I guess the patriarchal world values, you know, money, if you can earn money from something, there's a higher value on that than if you can't. Everyone was nodding then so I'm really keen to hear what he's got to say. wants to jump in? Everyone's go cool. No, it's really interesting, because I'm not gonna say anything about this topic. Particularly, I'm gonna let someone else dive in. But you should see us on a call. So we're like, talking over each other. We're also excited. And it's, it's kind of interesting to watch us all be polite, and wait for the other person to go first. But I see Carmela is unmuted. So I will let her lead the way on from from a zoom out perspective, we run this Whatsapp group that's called the glow mama village. And one of the girls shared this talk that's happening, and it's all about these really smart people. Harvard educated and, and not and, and celebrities and non celebrities, but who are talking about how can we leverage compassion, humility, and connectedness in our cultures? Rather, I think we're all shifting away from the what's the word I'm you, corporation, there's a word, someone helped me out, I'm having a complete brand capitalism, capitalism. Thank you, please. But we're still we're still we're still in it. And so it does break my heart a little bit to be completely transparent. When I see moms put a lot of effort and a lot of their time and you know, at the cost of not being with their children or doing a job that would give them a high salary, when it's not financially rewarded. Because then they don't value the work. And then they'll take on jobs that might not be as fulfilling, but that will pay the bills. And so to me, there's this like, fine balance of like, how can it? How can we value what we do and put up because No, but yeah, it was interesting, when we started putting a price tag to what we were doing, people would value what we were doing more to so it's a learning experience. And I would love to do it for free for the rest of my life, if I could, but it doesn't serve anyone doing that. And so there's there's this fine line of how can we make it sustainable? And we have to feed ourselves to from it and value of what we're doing. And yet, yeah, not only not not letting that monetary value be our only sense of value. Does anyone else have something else. I also wanted to add that Tasha discovered and shared this great website, which is called bill the patriarchy.com. And it's really, really an interesting way of looking at all the things that mothers and caregivers do. And what that would be worth if you chose the hourly wage that corresponds with what you believe you should be paid for. And I will say when we started our Kickstarter campaign, we had a millionaire by the way on Julian, if I remember correctly, right. Oh, yeah. In two years, I think I made a million if I didn't have to pay taxes, so before taxes, so I know it's interesting, right? We talk about the invisible load and all the emotional labor that goes into raising our child During and I think because a lot of us do it with love. It doesn't also mean that our time isn't valuable. So that's also one of our, our things that we looked at when we were doing our Kickstarter campaign, it was really exciting to see all the support flood behind us. And for us, it wasn't necessarily, even though the Kickstarter was fundraising, it also showed us the greater interest in the project we were doing, which meant we had traction and what we were pouring our hearts into, was something that people were excited about and interested in. So I think that was probably the better payoff. At the end of the day, wasn't the financial it was the sense of like, yeah, you're on the right path. And, and there's people out there who believe in what you're doing. So we felt pretty grateful and pretty energized after that. Absolutely. Hugely validating you know, you've got that, that collective energy behind you of people mums want this, they need this, you know, I think, for me, like and that just remind me about the Kickstarter campaign, like I still and I know you ladies do to the Kickstarter video, like, it makes me cry, and the amount of people who like watched it, and well, you know, like, teared up over it, it really had, like, it hit a nerve for a lot of people. I feel like I need to go watch it. Now. I really wish I had found you guys back then. Because I would love to have contributed to it, too. It's like, and I'm so glad you found me too. Yeah, but this is like this is yeah, it has how incredible that we found each other, you know, like these, these little zeros see, to be like, Okay, I'm going to take a leap, and I'm going to start a podcast, and I'm going to kind of put myself out there. And I'm sure along the way, you've just listened to, like incredible women that you've met along the way. And you know, you can't always measure exactly the impact, right? But there's this sort of trust, knowing that if I show if you show up with integrity, and and from a place of like i Yes, it's it's incredible to build and to grow and to be validated, you know, in that sense, but really, at the end of the day, like you're having these conversations that have this rippling effect where you don't exactly know where it's going to end up. Yeah, but you also kind of like, you have to release that too, right? I think Elizabeth, is it Elizabeth Gilbert for one of one of the ones that we refer to a lot, just kind of, maybe not even her but like talks about this idea of like, you pour all of this energy into creating into making something great, but then it's kind of like birth to you know, we might have this idea before we have children that like we're gonna mold and educate and make these people but really, they, they are who they are, right, it's our job then to just kind of help support their unfolding. And I feel like with creative projects, which again, can be so many looks so many ways, right? I feel like every, every mother is creative, like it's just, it's there every Yeah. But um, it's kind of like, you have to release the attachment, you know, or I'll see we'll just eat ourselves alive. And again, same in motherhood, if I am so attached to the outcome of how what my child is going to do, I will drive myself crazy. And that doesn't belong to me. And I think there's, it can be really helpful to have people in community who can remind you that because it's quite vulnerable, right? Like we want to be accepted. I want things to have in the intended impact. We want things you know, to be well received, and it's natural to want to feel validated. But But that can't be the only currency there. Right. Is other people's validation? Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I also name and it's really nice to have the support within this group. Because I think if we were each going at a project alone, we'd probably be wandering and having doubts from time to time, like, are we going about this the right way, like you're trying your best to chart your own course. But sometimes if you don't fit in the mold that's been said, it can feel a little bit unstable. And I noticed one of your questions you had about the podcast was about support. And I think that that's been one of the best things is we all feel like we can go farther together. Because we were kind of creating this new paradigm together. We all agree on it and we're not afraid to try it out. And kind of recognize like Really what is our intention? Each step along the way, whether we're hosting a virtual retreat or whether we're launching our book? What what did these goals actually mean to us? What do we want to see come out of this and the community that we've built so far, I would venture to say, to me feels like our greatest achievement. You know, and that's not something you hear all the time. Usually, it's measured in other ways. But I think for us, genuinely, we feel like that's been one of the greatest thing. That's things that's come out of this. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Angelina, it makes me think to, you know, the idea of like, a rising tide lifts all boats. And like, yeah, the most valuable thing will be, you know, not the money that somebody might have spent to, to join our monthly community for the month. But maybe six months down the line, we're seeing all of these mothers like, like not only starting to write this incredible stuff, but share it. And that's only going to impact people in their sphere in their sphere, that there's really like this incredible expression that's coming out in different ways. And also, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. Right? Like, we can be proud and excited that we're able to sustain a business that's able to, you know, receive, like, financial compensation for the hours we put in. And also hold that the most valuable thing to us is watching mother's shine, like both are both are true. And we like want it also, I think, for me is made me really value and actively seek out ways that I can support other mothers and that that pursuit as well. Yeah, when we talk about community, I write lots of notes when I've speak to my guests. And I've written intense support, and I've put it in a big circle. And that's that is the vibe that I'm getting from you ladies today. It's is that incredible support for each other, which is just awesome to see. And awesome to be in a little group with today. It's just so uplifting. Happy to be your first group interview, by the way. You've done an amazing job in my dream, I go for a deep dive. The magic of the ocean makes me feel alive but I think that's what we feel like with all the things we do as well like with mother the mother monthly, especially like because we brought we brought on other speakers in the last one year and I'm like, wow, like, they we had to meet the most amazing people we learn so much. You know, we build this community. But yeah, I yeah, I think and we all like it's a ripple. For me, it's a ripple effect. Like I feel like the core principle of really begging the shit out of each other and like absolutely adoring each other, like, just makes me want to go do that everywhere in the world. You know, like, it just kind of ripples all out. And you know, like, especially, and our focus, of course is moms but it's everyone but you know, like I really feel like that when I meet a new mom. I'm like, oh, okay, like, how can I how can I help like what can I do and it's gets me excited. But I did want to give it just a shout out that Carmela really is the the glitter we refer to her as the glitter glue that brings us all together. And just to kind of come back to that again that like none of this would have happened and I can see your grown without you guys, it would just have remained an idea that I wanted to thank you because this is officially the first podcast I'm doing. We were all on it. We had our first friend do your podcast and my battery ran out and I basically took 30 minutes to come back on and I missed the whole thing. So this is officially my first podcast. Thank you for hosting us. delightful conversation. I do have to head and help my kids with breakfast and getting them to the bus but um, thank you for having us and absolute pleasure. And you're invited to the mommy's Awesome. Thank you. We're excited Can I just ask? I watched this amazing movie yesterday. I want to know Is anyone else seen the movie called The lost daughter on Netflix exec came up on our global mama village. Yeah, it's, it's, it's good. It's It's, yeah. It's like this. It's like you're taught it's, I don't know, it's like, all of a sudden, it's like this massive taboo subject has just got a huge audience. And it's amazing. Like, when when the girl, the one that shouldn't give things away the one with the big hat. I can't remember a name now. Yeah, she said to the lake later, is it later, I couldn't remember her name was later or later. But when she said to her, how did you feel when you're away from your children? I actually said, we spoke amazing, because I knew she was just and then when she said whatever she said was fantastic. Whatever I thought I was, it's just groundbreaking, isn't it to have something like that set out in public? It's like, Ah, I was just blown away by it. I just hope that it gets so much publicity and traction, and so many people say it, I just think it's amazing. So amazing. I think it's, you know, yeah, I think it's great, because it's it shone the light on that. And but you know, of course, there are such mixed reviews, if you've kind of gone down that rabbit hole of reading what people say about it. But it's we did taboo as a topic, and other than other monthly and it was the most popular month, like people want to talk about these topics. Yeah. What do you think that says about? Society? It's just, they're not ready for stuff yet that, you know, a portion of us are ready to talk about things and other people are catching up? Or is it a divide in an unknown generations? What do you reckon? I think that we've for so long, stripped mothers of their humanity, right, and the way that they're portrayed, and also what we expect, like love is supposed to have a child is supposed to then compensate for all of these other things. And we we live in, in societies where mothers are grossly under supported and, and every sense and the demands are massive. And yeah, there's the there's no space, in a lot of instances for mothers to really feel the whole breadth of their humanity. So I think that makes people largely uncomfortable, because you have to, like, reconcile that fact that women are mothers or are humans, again, to bring up Elizabeth Gilbert, and she's not a mother herself. Maybe I'll look for this. But she wrote this Instagram or Facebook posts a couple years ago called Mercy on the mothers. And it's absolutely beautiful. And it's a, you know, a paragraph or so. And she's just basically saying, what could happen if just for one moment, we could just give mothers grace, like maybe, you know, maybe they had mental health issues, maybe they were really tired. Maybe they battled addiction, maybe they just needed time for their selves, and on and on and on. But what if just for a moment, we suspend a judgment, and we just kind of allowed for them to be human. And it was so deeply moving. And validating not only as a mother myself, but I think also for me to look at my own relation with my mom and generations and generations and generations and really sort of feel the gravity of what happens when we took this whole, essential, valuable, you know, swath of society and, and actually looked at them as real people. It's incredibly moving. It is it's so profound. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll look for it really quickly, because I think it's Yeah, go for it. And isn't that amazing, though, for not a non mother to say that like, that's like, yeah, she's got an incredible insight, obviously You know, life somewhere. That's, that's what's going on. She was also, you know, and I feel like it was an maybe an a big magic book, I can't remember which one, but she talks about how her parents went off and did their own thing. And that kind of, you know, like, her parents were busy leading their own lives. And she didn't look at that as something as a negative, but I think it's an inspiration for her, you know, pursuing what she wanted to pursue? Yeah, that's pretty powerful, isn't it? Yeah, I can't help but feel so moved by the idea that mother's living out their own lives is a healing of what we've been taught for so long, which is that you should be a martyr. And that the unsaid words are, your needs don't matter as much as your child or spouses or society's opinion of you. And so, to me, when we bring up this topic of mother's dreams, it just feels like there's something really special there that we want to hold space for. Yeah, it feels like a healing for me. Yeah, yeah. I love it through that lens. Anjali, that's really true. Because I oftentimes think of, I guess, maybe this is true of every generations, here we are living, right. We're really like the bridge between past and future. And for so many mothers, of course, fewer and fewer opportunities for them, but really fewer resources, and to be able to openly talk about these things at once we can shed light on it, and we can process it right, then we can allow for it. And of course, you know, so much of the work that we do today around this, maybe we won't feel we feel we feel benefit for sure. But really, it's going to be future generations that that, you know, really can move forward from this place. But yeah, but every time I take time for myself, every time I you know, check in with me every time my mother, the mother, really, really look at that. It's it's a healing not only for me, but for all of us. That CDs, and it's that it's that ripple in the pond. And it is, yeah, it flows out. And that's something that a lot, I would say, every mum that I talked to on my podcast, is a question that I asked them is that it isn't important to you to be. And I put this in air quotes more than a mum, because there's nothing wrong with I mean, that statement to me just sounds wrong anyway. I don't even know why I would like that. But that's the gist of it, like more than the parenting role, the mothering role, and everybody says, yes, it's so important that another way that someone described it to me recently was that they were an artist before they had children, and they were an artist, even before they met their partner. And that all of a sudden, when they actually had a child, why was that going to go away? You know? Why? Why is there an expectation that what you've been for your whole life is all of a sudden going to change in the blink of an eye? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I love that, because that's really acknowledging the fact that it's not that, you know, mothers weren't all of these other things weren't more than mothers for generations. And still today, but that they were having to basically cut themselves off of, like parts of themselves off right to suppress them to, to disengage or disconnect from them. And that it was always there. Yeah, that's, you know, what you said, you said something before, that you're expanding as a person, you're not giving something up. And I feel like, that's what has happened for moms for so long. And still does happen. But I think the way that we're talking about it now, you're sort of giving yourself that validation and permission to go, oh, hang on a sec. That's not actually what I want to do. And there's people there to support me in in the way I want to live my life, I suppose. Yeah. So good. Just as a side note, Angelique, just message to say her Internet has crashed. I wondered where she taught. All right. Well, look, I think I'll let you ladies go. Now. We've had a wonderful chat today. I've thoroughly enjoyed meeting you all and share the space this morning. It's been so much fun. It has this is why we love doing this, like energized after this. Yeah. I feel you feel like you could take on the world now. But can you imagine we always share the quote too. I think it was Jana Romer, who we heard this, like a well rested woman is a dangerous woman, right? Because we love but can you think of like, if every mother had some ounce of this every you know, in her day, not every moment is meant to feel like we're all feeling right now. And that's okay. Like we're here to invite all of the challenging difficult parts of life to there is we need those right? And also, if every woman, every mother could could could feel this, like, what you can't help but think, how the world would shift. You know? Let's with that energy, can I before we go, just to read to you because I think it's a beautiful monastery. Only two, but just that quick mercy on the mothers because I just I go back to this all the time. It says Dear ones, recently I was at a conference where the question was asked how many of you are afraid of turning into your mother, nearly everyone in the room stood up. This made my heart ache. My heart ached, not only for, for the people in the room who were all beautiful, creative, imaginative and wonderful human beings. It made my heart hurt for their mothers who will never be stopped, stopped being judged as failures. Because oh my god, we never stopped blaming the mothers do we? How many years? How many dollars? How much energy have we all spent as a culture talking about how mothers have failed us? What I want to say today is can we take a break just for one day, and show some mercy to the mothers? Because being a mother is impossible, and I don't mean that it's difficult, I mean, it is impossible. What we as a culture expect from our mothers is merely that they cannot be human. Mothers are meant to be some combination of Mother Mary, Mother, Teresa, Superwoman, and Gaia. It is merciless standard of perfection, merciless. God help your mother if she had ever fell short. God help your mother if she was exhausted and overwhelmed. God help her if she didn't understand her kids, God help her if she had no gift for raising children. God help her if she had desires and longings. God help her if she was ever terrified, suicidal, hopeless, bored, confused, furious. God help her if life had disappointed her. God help her if she had an addiction or mental illness. God help her if she ever broke down, God help her it couldn't if she couldn't control her rage. God help her because she fucked up. And if she fucked up in any way, she will forever be branded bad mother. And we will never forgive her for this. So this is my question. Can we take a break today from judging the mothers and show them mercy instead? This doesn't mean that what happened to you at the hands of your mother was okay. This doesn't mean that any pain you have is not real. It just means that maybe her pain was real, too. And if you are yourself a mother, and you never stop judging yourself for how you are failing, can you let it go for one day? Just for one day? Can you drop the knife that you're holding to your own throat? Mercy just for one day? Let us find mercy, mercy on you. Mercy on everyone mercy on the mothers? So have that same feeling to that last question. Like me? I'm like caring for right now. Oh, my God, that is so true. And I really don't and, you know, I know we're gonna call me now. But we talk about this construct of good mother bad mother. And of course, we all want to come to this as our best healthiest self. Right? And that is a practice to do and there's ingredients we need to get there. But at the same time, like this idea of a bad mother of failing our children are you know, I don't think mothers any mothers really failing, I think that they some that are more under resourced than others. I think I love I think Glennon Doyle always says, you know, there's no such thing as other people's children. And I don't just take that as a sense of like, having responsibility for the collective well being of kids everywhere, but also that society also has responsibility and benefit from seeing to the well being of my children as well. Right. Like, I don't think mothers have failed I think society's failed mothers. And there's a bit of an internet like a revolution that little ripple when we say like what I have to say no matter what I feel what I need to express what I need to create, because it makes me feel alive. Like that's not nothing, right? That's everything. That's yeah, I'll send it to you. That's my goal. I go back to that all the time. Kissing like yeah, Oh that's so powerful oh man can we do this to me continue all look Thank you I've had such a wonderful time thank you to all the best with it all and and I'll put the links in the show notes where they can find your amazing website we are mother wild and yet all the best with the book as much as I thank you so much. And by the way, Allison like congratulations and thank you for this incredible space that you've cultivated like it's amazing be able to go through you know, your list of apps, I think it was 35 I feel like I can't remember the exact numbers. And I'm just like the cloud every conversation is so rich and and that it has it means so much so to the thank you and for giving us like the space to be able to share and hopefully connect with. With more moms. It's so valuable. Oh, thank you. No, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Mezz Coleman Australian indie musician S2 Ep48 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter + vocal coach Mezz Coleman, mum of 2 children, aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her. Her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business, her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age, it was quite organic that Mezz would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. Straight out of high school Mezz went to Uni to study a jazz improv course. Her son was born in her final year of Uni, so Mezz has never experienced her music career without having children. Mezz has released 3 studio albums, Parts of You, Parts of Me in 2010 , Words in 2015 and a Christmas Album in 2015 . Mezz is currently recording her third studio album, a chamber indie-pop record, produced by Rohan Sforcina (Oh Mercy, Kate Miller Heidke, Ali Barter, Ferla) Adored by folk festival audiences around the country and celebrated as “a musical treasure” ( Bendigo Blues & Roots Festival ), Mezz has a unique ability to conjure worlds, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight-to-the-heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on Carols by Candlelight , and open for the likes of Kimbra, multi-award-winning songwriter Sara Storer and iconic Australian artist Shane Howard (Goanna). When she’s not performing her own material, Mezz’s experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist, has given her the opportunity to work with many international and national artists including Nana Mouskouri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne Gospel Choir. In 2021 Mezz toured as backing vocalist and keyboard player for The Marrollo Project’s “Uninvited: The Songs of Alanis Morissette” . Mezz website / music / linktree Podcast - instagram / website Music heard on todays podcast is from Mezz, used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bandik people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. It is really great to have you here. My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter and vocal coach, Mezz Coleman, who's also amother of two children aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her, her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age. It was quite organic that Ms would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. straight out of high school Mezz. went to uni to study a jazz improv and her son was born in her final year of uni. So Ms has never experienced her music career without having children. Ms has released three studio albums, parts of you parts of me in 2010 words in 2015 and a Christmas album also in 2015. Mercy is currently recording a chamber indie pop record, adored by Folk Festival audiences around the country and celebrate it as a musical treasure. By the Bendigo blues and Roots Festival. Mays has a unique ability to conjure words, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight to the heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on carols by candlelight. And I prefer the likes of Kimbra multi award winning songwriter Sarah Stora and iconic Australian artists Shane house of Goanna fame when she's not performing her own material mess his experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist has given her the opportunity to work with many international and Australian artists such as Nana Maskuri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne gospel choir in 2021. Mears tour is backing vocalist and keyboard player for uninviting the songs of Alannis Morissette. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thanks for your continued support. Welcome to the podcast today, mares. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to be able to chat to you because I've been following you for a while after I sort of connected with Georgia through the Motherlode, Georgia fields, and then I saw that you were a guest on there. So I was like, oh, because I'm a musician. So I like to follow people that I can connect with in that way. So yeah. love watching you. You're playing the piano and singing the songs. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's amazing. What Georgia has set up with the mother lode. And it's like, extra special for me, because, um, I've actually known her for a really long time. We're at the same high school together. Yeah. And it's not like we've, you know, hung out throughout all the years, but we've actually known each other for ages and to just see what she's building there. That community for mother musicians. Yeah, amazing. It is. It's so it's so valuable. And it's one of those things that like, there is no rulebook of what to do. It's like you learn from each other and trip over on the way but then you sort of go, oh, I can learn from that. Or I can Yeah, take that on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're a musician, singer and a songwriter. When did you first become interested in music? I think in many ways, I was quite lucky. I have a very musical family. So my parents It's so funny, this is a story that I've only really recently realized is quite amazing, because when it's just your normal life, you don't really think about it. But when my mum was a stay at home mum for a long time, but you know, loved singing, and my dad worked, I think, a fairly uninspiring office job somewhere. And then when we were sort of when me my brothers were sort of like, early teen years. My father's whole office got retrenched. And so he was looking for other work. And I think it was, you know, a little bit disheartening. And then just on this sort of, like, it's sort of, I think it hit him and my mum at the same time, like, we love playing music together, we should do something with this. Oh, and they ended up like, for 1015 years, like, I think they really stopped doing it maybe five or six years ago. So maybe even longer. They actually built a business playing music together. So my dad would play guitar, my mom would sing. And I guess you would say they were like music therapists, they would go into a lot of aged care places, senior citizen places, maybe I'm not sure, maybe hospitals as well, I might be wrong about that. And they would sing for people, and they would and people would join in, and they would like do the songs that would you know, maybe trigger a lot of memories for older people. And so I grew up just thinking it was totally normal to make a living, playing music. That is awesome. Yeah. And when I say totally normal, like, it was tight, sometimes, you know, like, they'd have good weeks, and then then have not such good weeks in terms of, you know, financial, so, but yeah, like I just sort of learnt from an early age that you can play music and make a living from it, and also makes such a big difference in the world with that, I think that's the other thing that they were doing was it was so much more than being like, perfect, or technically brilliant. It was about like sharing a real gift with people. And so I sort of grew up with that idea. And then on top of that, I was really lucky that both of my brothers are quite musical. So we would often just jam together and play together. And then when I went off to high school, a lot of my friends were musical and musicians. And I don't know, I I feel almost like spoiled now that I've met other people who haven't had that experience and really had to fight to kind of play music, even in terms of like, sort of going against maybe what their families, you know, would like them to do and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, very lucky that musics just been around me, and I've been immersed in it. And if anything, I probably just came to it because there wasn't much else I could do. I'm just like, quite good at this. I'm not quite not very good at much else. So. Yeah, sort of how I'm sort of, yeah, found music. It was very organic. Yeah, that is such an awesome story. I love that so much. It was so normal for us that I thought nothing of it. And if anything, I just shrugged my shot I did. And it's only been in the last year or two. That's amazing. That's a really amazing and inspiring thing to see your parents go off and do. Yeah, and that thing to that, you know, in them. I'm not sure exactly how old they were, but just say, midlife they've gone, I'm gonna totally change my career, I'm gonna take this, maybe take a risk, you know, financially, it's like, let's do this, just do something that we love. And that is so inspiring is fine. Yeah, they would have been a fair bit older than I am now. And so to think that there's, I think sometimes as an artist, and maybe especially as a female artist, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I should talk to my male friends and see if they feel the same way that you can feel like time is running out. And that clock is ticking. And oh, shit. Um, you know, I'm turning 40 Soon, and I haven't done the things I wanted to do, or a bit of probably not the same thing when I was like, in my late 20s, about turning 30. And, actually, yeah, to sort of go up, I've got plenty of time. Yes. Sort of, like, try other things. And yeah, and get this stuff done that I want to get done. You know, it's really helped me not feel like there's this mad rush. Yeah, it's really, it's almost like an empowerment that you can take the pressure off yourself. And I can sort of relate this to the kids like my son's in high school, and they start sort of on their paths of what they're going to do when they leave school. And so I keep saying to him, like I was what was I foot nearly 40 When I finally found the job that I loved, you know, you don't have to know straight away, or they do they put so much pressure on these like 1617 year olds to make these, you know, really important decisions to pick a perfect subject and your whole life will depend on it. And I just, yeah, say the same thing to my son. I'm like, whatever. You just work, you know, just do whatever you like, you know, whatever you're doing at the time, try and do your best but it's not this sort of Yeah, it's not a life or death situation. That's it, isn't it? Time to explore the world and yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You actually have to get out in the world and see how you feel in the world. And absolutely, maybe what are the things you enjoy? Right, I'm gonna leave school and go to uni and I'm gonna drop and that's it your whole life Smackdown was like, that's just so unreasonable, unreasonable and like the stories you know, just like friend after friend after friend who went and started a uni course. And within a year had gone this is so not for me. So like, you know, there's yeah, there's just no rush. It's a really nice Yeah, absolutely. Gosh. Being exposed to the music with your parents, did you start playing particular instruments? At that point? What were you playing? Yeah. So again, when I was quite young, there was this. I just feel so lucky for these rich experiences that I totally took for granted as a child, but there was a woman in my neighborhood who was she played piano? Like, I think back in Dancehall, dancehalls, back in the day, and so she just like, as a very local little business, just all the little kids in the area would go to her house and learn the piano. And you'd get your lowly and you learn your scales, and you'd go through your books, but the thing about her that really set her apart is like she was, you know, I thought of her I think she was you know, quite, she wasn't old, she's still with us. So she's not like that, you know, she was quite a lot older than say, like my parents at the time. And she was so different to so many, like, sort of music teachers in that it didn't take her long to work out that my heart wasn't in all the technical stuff. And also that, you know, I like to sing. So from a really young age, she kind of worked that out. And she was like, Well, I'm going to teach you how to like play chords and accompany yourself, and I'm going to teach you how to improvise. And like, you know, we're not just going to play fair release. And the entertainer and I did do a bit of this wonderful piano teacher who like really picked up early that I wanted to learn that kind of stuff. Maybe even before I knew that, that's what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I've played the piano forever and, and have learnt piano in a way where I've been able to accompany myself to sing since I was practically a kid. And so that's always been a part from my voice. I'm a singer first, but piano would be my secondary instrument. And that's generally the instrument that I write with. And when I'm writing music, and then, you know, just in those sort of primary school and high school years, I dabbled in the flute. And I wasn't bad at it, but my heart wasn't in it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. The guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always time. I love that. That story about your music teacher that that is such a gift for her to give you because so many music teachers, it's like theory. You know, like I, I, my experience was with teachers that basically you had to learn your scales yet to know what all the notes were called, and how long you held them for. And I just wanted to play stuff by ear. And it was like, really, like, my, my teacher wasn't as amazing as yours. But I think back now, like, I would have loved to have just learned how to accompany myself, that would have been amazing. Well, she was yeah, she was quite an amazing woman. And actually, a few years ago, I felt really compelled to reach out and thank her and I wrote her this letter, just like, Oh, my God, you're amazing. Thank you. And I got this beautiful letter back. And I think she'd be in her like late 80s by now. The funny thing is, though, when she was teaching me what I think she must have been quite brilliant. Because while she kind of adapted the lessons to suit me and my needs, she somehow was sneaking that theory. And I actually have got a fairly good, you know, theoretical foundation, but really kind of managed to do it in a way where it was helpful or making sense to the end. Yeah, relative to what you wanted to do with your music like, yeah, she's, yeah, she whatever she was, she was working her magic. That's for sure. What a gem of a woman honestly. That's honestly, we should all have a lady like that in our lights. Just be amazing. Marge Williams is her name. Good. Good on your Marge. Give her a shout out. I wish I had met Marge when I was when I was a little girl. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So the game All right. at the moment with your music is your music your life? That's what you do you. Yeah. So, in a roundabout way, I've managed to get to a point in my life where I can sort of comfortably say that I make my living as a musician. But like, realistically, that, Oh, quite a fair percentage of that living is coming from being like, like working in the teaching field, as well as performing and recording and all of those things. I'm really fortunate to have quite a good teaching job at a university here in Melbourne, where I teach mostly singing, like a one on one singing lessons to the students that come through. But I also help, you know, work with bands, and, you know, mentor some of that, you know, mentor the students through some of those processes and classes. And then on top of that, yeah, my, so, artistically, the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I'm always working towards, sometimes slowly, but is my own music that I write. And that I really, yeah, I pour a lot of myself into. And then I guess the other thing, and obviously, work has been quite quiet in the last couple of years due to COVID. But as a singer, like, as a vocalist, I can Yeah, I often work in that field, I guess for other people. So doing session work in studios for like, people that need a, you know, a vocal line on this particular track, or a harmony or a demo and, and working as a backing vocalist for other artists as well. So through or So like most, I think, not just me, I think like most artists, you generally you don't have like that sort of nine to five, steady job, you just you have your fingers in all of the pies, and you kind of slowly build whatever it is that you're building that way, which in some ways is kind of stressful, because you can't remember what do I do on Wednesday. And, you know, there can be dips financially, of course, especially when we're in COVID. But even before that, to be honest, but I also know I wasn't built for a nine to five job. So in many ways, it's thrilling to be doing a few different things. And I get quite excited when I'm looking in my diary and I'm like, Oh, I've been booked for that session next week cool, like different people different kinds of environments. So yeah, yeah. Without the teaching work It'd be impossible Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that you but you're still so involved in music like it's not like it doesn't probably doesn't feel like a real autonomous a real job because it is a real job but you know, you're you're really enjoying what you're doing. Absolutely. I there are things about teaching that can be quite draining and you know, because I put a lot of myself into it. But there are also like yeah, I'm still like I'm surrounded by music every day many of my students inspire me I work I have amazing peers so like other teachers that I work with they're all musicians so I'm sort of like spending time in that world still yeah work yeah sounds awesome yeah day and God fashion keep it to myself most days I struggle to this crew good. Kids my thing carefree was counting on. But it's a bit of an intro into your children. I came into what were you doing at the time when you had your children? Oh, goodness, okay, so I have, my son is almost 16. And my daughter is 11. And my son in particular came along in a very interesting time. I was studying music at university. So I went straight out of high school into a music course that I studied is like a jazz kind of improv course, which was interesting. And in that final semester, of the entire course, I discovered I was pregnant. And that was quite intense. Because I was trying to like, sort of start this music, career, whatever that is. The same time, I suddenly had this, like, human being that was like, gonna need my care. So I had him when I was 21. So nearly my, so my entire music career really has coincided with raising a child, which has been, which has had some real positives, and has also obviously presented quite a few challenges. Yeah, he's sort of been with me every step of the way. And, yeah, it's been. Yeah, overall, it's been a really great thing. And yeah, I guess the main, the main thing that I now know, looking back, not that I would change a thing, but I never really got those years prior to kids to build something up first. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, like my 20s. You know, for instance, I didn't spend my 20s being able to just say yes to every opportunity, or like, just be like, yes, we'd all go on that tour. See, everyone, I had to be from sort of day one, I never stopped, like, I always like, you know, I released an EP not long after he was born, which, kind of like, Oh, my God, how did I do that. However, I probably never had quite the capacity to take things as far as I would have liked. Because like, the child comes first. Like, that's the reality. And so like, my music always played, like a really close second to my number one priority, which was, you know, raising this beautiful boy. So. Yeah, that's, that's just how that's just how it has been for me, like music and parenting have always had to coexist. I don't remember ever. Yeah, obviously, like, I've got an amazing partner. We've been together for a long time. And so I've never had to do it all alone, which is great. But like just little things, like, I don't know what it's like to book a gig without also going, who's gonna watch the kids? I actually never had that experience. It's always been those two things happening at the same time. So yeah, it's a unique perspective, isn't it? It's a little different. Yeah, and I can definitely see how it would have its positives. It does. Yeah, there have definitely been positive. So the positive that I'm feeling now and the so like, you know, the positive place that I find myself in now, is I'm currently at a place with an 11 year old and an almost 16 year old who are pretty independent. And I now have this time and space and energy to be really going for it. And so where a lot of my friends who like have done a lot of their now maybe like they've got toddlers, or they've just had a baby. And so well, while a lot of my peers are probably like slowing down a little bit, which is so fine. They should, they've got kids that need that care. I'm at a place now where I'm really like, much more sort of time rich, and kind of really go for it. And the fact is, I think my music is better now than it was when I was 2122 23. So I could have you know, the energy and the time that I could have poured into my art back then I'm sure it would have been great. But actually, I think the work I'm making is better now with maturity. And now I have this energy also to kind of Yeah, kind of play with I guess. I think the other thing that helps sort of having children along pretty much from the beginning is you. You tend to I don't want to say you use your time well, because people who know me would know that I'm not great at that. But I guess like as in I'm a terrible planner, and I can, you know, procrastinate like anybody's business. But I guess the thing that I do know when you know if you've got to babysitter, and you need to be, you know, so you've aren't, hey, I've got a rehearsal. And I've asked someone to watch the kids till you know, this time, you don't just wander into that rehearsal and blah, blah, blah and wait, like, so you have shorter pockets of time. And so you bloody well use them properly. And so what I found is like, yeah, like, so? Yeah, you it's almost like you get these pockets of time, you don't have just like this rich expanse, expensive time just before you when you can do whatever you want. And slowly, you know, kind of work on songwriting, or rehearsal or recording session, like, sometimes your time is limited, generally, always, to be honest. And as a result, you get quite good at working pretty fast. If I'm honest. Like, yeah, I'm pretty good at getting in and out of the studio, like, position work. And I reckon, part of that has just been through experience where I'm like, Well, I've got to leave it midday. So I think I've got that skill where I can be a little bit like, when I really have to focus on time, creatively, I can kind of just get it done. Same with songwriting, like I really, I mean, I don't, I'm not a prolific songwriter, like, I don't write heaps. But I do feel like when I'm like, Okay, I've got this time, I've got this energy and like, say, when the kids were younger, you know, the kids are occupied, or away or whatever, and I've got these few hours, I would generally walk out of there with a song or two, because it was like, I have to, really, ya know, so that kind of time pressure can work. to your advantage. Also, there's the flip side to that, where the time pressure can be a massive disadvantage in terms of just not having the space and the time that you would want to give to your art. Yeah, so there's like the payoff of that as well. But I think yeah, really fast. Yeah, yeah. It's it's instilled those skills in you and then you can you can take that through the rest of your life really. Because you just want to be. conscious. You mentioned because you had your son, like, you've never known your career without your son. What was that like then for you being in that world with other musicians, other women who weren't mums yet? Was that how did that feel for you being in that environment? Yeah. So there were, again, musicians, like, especially female musicians, are just beautiful people. And so while I was, for a long time, the only one in my peer group with a child, you know, I used to, like I'm thinking back two years ago, like a long time ago, when he was quite little. And I was actually in this singing group with three other singers. And one of them has gone on to just be absolutely amazing. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ainsley wills. She's like, the best. Anyway, and I remember, I would just take the baby to rehearsals, and they were so lovely. They would like hold him that because it was so cute. Get a lot of like that kind of, oh, we'll hold him and we'll look after him and using that. And so I remember back in the day, actually having a lot of support in the moment, like the other musicians were absolutely amazing. I had an I had a band at the time, and we would rehearse weekly and sometimes I just have to bring, you know, my top baby or toddler with me, and you know, and actually everyone else in that band would dudes. Yeah, some of them were my brothers. So they were like uncles to the to the baby. But you know, our guitarist wasn't and I don't know, he could have just been like, this is crap. I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to kind of come to the studio and keep climbing all over my face, so generous and so kind about it. And so musicians in general, were pretty lovely, and pretty welcoming. I think where it became a challenge was more than just the industry wasn't set up for it. So while individuals within the industry were like, so beautiful, so kind, really found Yeah, the whole situation, I'm sure they were all a bit like, Oh my God, but you know, they were like, is like, our friends got a baby. It's so weird, but um, yeah, everyone was lovely. But it was more when it came to things like geeks and knights and just being like, we can't bring him here, you know, it's dirty, there's no way to breastfeed or change a nappy. You know, I really found that within Melbourne, like, where I live, I was very active in the music scene, and, you know, still am. But if I've never really felt I had the capacity. I know, some parents do. And I'm just like, wow, they're amazing, but I never really felt like I had the capacity to tour. So I've never really even even now like, have never really too much. Or like, sort of been able to spread further than that, because I just didn't feel like there was much space or capacity there to like, take him with me, or, you know, the alternative, I guess would be to leave him for long stretches of time, which again, like, I've thrown no shade on parents who can do that. Like it's just each to their own. Just with, I guess, my parenting style and his personality and needs. That actually didn't feel like an option either. Where I could sort of almost be like, Alright, you're staying at Nando's for two weeks, I'm off. That was just, that was just not a way that we could do things for him. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But like, no, yeah, other women and like my peers, my friends. They were so lovely. It was actually divine, like the way they kind of embraced this little baby and toddler who was sometimes at rehearsals, and sometimes it gigs. And, you know, even though none of them had kids, so they'll probably all a bit like, I don't know what to do, but they would hold him or Yeah, you know. But it was more yet the industry as a general kind of beast, I guess. Yeah, my, my, my place there felt a little. I don't know, where Be quiet anymore. Yeah. I'm going off track slightly. But do you think that is because it's mainly a male dominated industry? Or has been in the past? Yeah, I think so. Totally. And I think it's changing. And I think that's really exciting. Yeah, like men, you know, historically, can have kids, and still go off and do their own thing, you know. And, yeah, I think that's definitely, you know, how the world works, too. This is not just the music scene, it's the patriarchy and action. But I do feel like it's changing, I just think the changes are slow. And I think it's different. Now I see friends who sort of musician friends with babies now. And I think that the capacity that they have, and the understanding that they have from other people, I think, is better than probably I had at the time. Also, I've gotta remember, I was very young, I wasn't hugely educated. And so I probably didn't have the capacity personally to like, advocate for things that maybe I would now as a 37 year old woman, like, hey, use rehearsal space, I'm going to have to bring my child wet, you know, like, I'm gonna have to feed him, what are you going to do to help me like, you person to begin with, and especially when I was 21, and probably much more overwhelmed than I allowed myself to kind of think I was, I wasn't gonna ask that I was just gonna, like, yeah. Or, or, or see that as an opportunity that I couldn't have or I don't know, feed him in the car, or, you know, so I think sometimes, you know, having a little bit more, you know, a few more years behind you, and just a bit more confidence. I've advocated for myself a little bit more and being a bit more assertive, but I think the industry is changing. Like, there are so many more women speaking up in the industry, about and not just about motherhood, but just about sexism in general. And just small things like, you know, there are more I'm seeing more females working in manager, you know, like artist manager roles who are female, so they're just gonna have a, I'm sure, just more empathy for the say, their female clients around some of this stuff. I'm seeing more female sound engineers and producers, and I think that is really, really important. publicists did just seem to be a whole bunch of dudes back in the day. Doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's changing but I just think like anything in life changes are slow. So especially when you're trying to change Something that's been endemic since the beginning of time, but seems like we're looking at like this tiny little kind of music industry. I don't know, from my perspective in Melbourne even like, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're talking about an issue that is like, just the way humanity has been built for a very long time. So, yeah, yeah, I can see. Yeah, but I think more more and more women, a lot of performers who have children, I guess it may be being like, if I'm maybe social media, I think social media can be a bit. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes social media might be great in that way that they might post like, they're on tour, but you can see the kid in the backseat of the car, or, you know, I don't know. So maybe, maybe like, you know, female artists sharing their experiences of like, motherhood and the road or motherhood and recording or just motherhood in any sort of arts practice. Just makes it again, it just normalizes it. That's it, isn't it? And it makes it sound achievable for yourself. Because like you said, as a 21 year old, though, that that wasn't in you at that stage. But maybe if social media had been around, or if you had seen someone do it, you would have thought hang on a sec. That's, that is acceptable. I'm gonna have a crack at this sort of, sort of mentality. Yeah, yeah, just seeing some art. Okay. There are a few other artists, you know, doing this as well, because yeah, I definitely felt while everyone was so kind, you know, my other musician, friends, I think, you know, when you're in something, it's very hard to really know how you feel. Because I know when you've just had a baby, sometimes you're in survival mode to a certain extent you just like, head down doing what you got to do. And so I think now that sort of time has passed, I can be a bit more reflective. And I think I was, I think there was still a sense, even though no one overtly excluded me, ever. I do think I felt very alone. Because I didn't have other peers really having that same experience. And then the few people I would look up to and like, oh, wow, that person is a mother and a singer, songwriter, too. They wouldn't maybe I still felt alone in that a little because maybe they'd had their kids a bit later. And so they still had maybe a bit more of an established Korea. Look up to them. Okay, I'll just do what they do. And then I just almost find that really disheartening. Almost more so because I'm like, they're like, doing it all like, and they've got kids and I'm not doing it all. Yeah, so yeah, it was a bit lonely at times. Buried, you came alone with your shop, silent, said, get out, get in, just get to your beauty, your voice your take on a magic. I want to ask you about when you said before, that you you did your AP, when your son was young? And you said I don't know how I did it. Yeah. How did you actually do it? Was he? Is he coming with you a lot? Yeah. Like, how to physically manage it. The first thing to know about my son and my daughter. And it is what it is like. And again, like when it comes to parenting and how we do it. I just have no, I just people do what they've got to do. Like, I just do not care how other people like feed their kids sleep their kids like you do what you got to do. For me, personally, neither of my kids. So it wasn't because like of my own belief system around feeding, but neither of my kids would take a bottle. So the only way they were fed was via me for you know, 18 months, both of them my daughter a bit longer. So they were breastfed, which just meant they couldn't not be with me for long. So the hours so how did I do that EP, I think I had started recording it before he was born. Which helped so I think a lot of the work had been done. And then I think I did little short recording sessions in around feeds Due to finish off some of the vocal stuff, and then when it came time, I guess to like launching it, you know, like playing it playing like some shows and try to build up a bit of publicity around it, which again, like things have changed a bit, I probably would now, looking back, hire a publicist, which I didn't at the time, so it was just a lot of email, beat magazine, and whatever else it was. I just sort of it was just in snatched moments. i Yeah. And I don't know if that's the most sustainable way to do it. But I don't know any other way. I could have done it. Late nights when the babies are finally asleep. That was often when I would sit on the computer and email out my, you know, although Admony type parts of music rehearsals were Yeah, like, he'd be there. And just thankfully, my musician friends were cool with that. Yeah, the actual launch. I remember, I remember the gig, it was a great gig. It was really, you know, everyone came it was, I was so blessed. You know, like, it was a really beautiful moment. And yeah, we brought him. And so yeah, it was sort of this bar. I'm looking back, nothing was even allowed in there. I don't know. But you know, like a band room and a bar. And it was really crowded. And, you know, it was a great show. And yeah, just with this, I think by then you might have been walking, you know, like, sort of toddler age, just sort of this little toddler near the front of the stage. And it was stressful, because like, I think what we sort of had arranged was like, he'll come but people, they're sort of watching him like my mom or whatever. But no one quite watches your child the way you would. So I remember just being on stage and just being like someone grabbing plays, you know, like, he was too close. But like not like just all like I'm literally performed. Internally, almost just yelling at people like, move him grab him. He's too close to that, or whatever it was. Yeah. Looking back. That's not a way to perform. Hey, but yeah, so in hindsight, I probably would have just booked a babysitter and not had him there. at them, you know, in the moment, it felt like the right thing to do to have him there with us. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think snatches of time is probably the best way to describe, especially those early days when you know, you're fairly sleep deprived, or, you know, they're very kids are very young. Yeah. Like parenting is like a lifelong journey. Like you're never not a parent, you're always on. But those early years, that, like the time that is required of you is very demanding. Yeah, that's it, that changes when they get older, which is really great. And I'm sort of, I think, you know, enjoying the benefits of that now. But also, they become more complex human beings. So I find it emotionally more challenging now. Yeah. But I am getting sleep. And I go somewhere during the day, and my son, gets himself to school, gets himself home, if he wants to go out on the weekend, like, we're at that stage where I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, like so independent. It's brilliant. I love it. And I'm so happy for him because he's obviously enjoying that independence. And yeah, when you think back to just like, oh, you couldn't leave me for more than two hours? Because it is so nice to be in that space. But yeah, then you I don't know. Because you you said you've got a 14 year old that I worry one out or I'm not emotionally like, oh, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. Isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, like, yeah, the emotionally draining is a good way of describing it. Because you're, yeah, you're just you're trying to solve problems for him. I help him through things and issues with mental health. And yes, yes. This Yeah. Like you become a psychologist. And yeah, my sister in law, Nicole said recently because her kids are sort of my age, but we have nephews and nieces. Who are that younger age, that sort of baby toddler. And yeah, like, she just sort of commented like in a family thread recently, like, Oh, those beautiful days. I miss them. Like, yeah, they were demanding, but they weren't complex. Like, Oh, I feel every word of that. Yeah. So it's a different type of energy that you're pouring into your children, but you never stop. And I'm sure when they're 20 3040. Like, you'll That's it, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be it'll be something it'll be different again. It'll be Yeah, another thing. seems insane to say this, but then maybe there'll be grandkids and you're like, yeah, what's my role here? But I'm gonna use to believe that I'm still way too young to even consider that. So. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'll come back to you in like 30 is time when you're doing the grandmother artist. thing. That's awesome. Well, I won't have to worry about one of my kids, because my eldest has told me that he's never having children because it's just too hard. He's seen what we were going through. He's living with a six year old. So he's like, I'm not having kids. We're modeling like, how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah.Because you're gonna want to tow back to? So one of the questions I asked my mums is about before you had kids, what was your influences for your art? And then after you have kids? So asking you this is going to be a little bit different? Because I mean, I'm sure you're going to have some, you know, obviously, to music when you're a child, but in terms of what's influenced you, have you noticed that that has changed? Or how you look at your music? Or I don't know what what sort of changes has your own creativity gone through? As you became a mom? Yeah, I think I think the thing? That's a great question. Like, musically, my influences were pretty broad growing up, and I don't think that's changed. You know, like, one day, all I want to do is listen to Abba. And then the next thing I just want to listen to, like, you know, I actually listened to a lot of classical and choral music, and I don't make that music. But it's often what inspires me the harmony in that is so rich, I love harmony. Actually, that's like probably a big part of what I'm drawn to as a musician is harmony and melody. And so I listen to a lot of music that feels quite dense and rich in that way. As I said before, like before my son came along, I was training more in that sort of jazz wealth, and so was playing quite a lot of jazz music. And a lot of those sort of early jazz singers really inspired me in terms of their vocal sound. So like I absolutely I do absolutely love Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Billie Holiday. huge Beatles fan of course. Yes. My parents pretty much raised me on on the Beatles. And again, their harmony always three. In terms of the Yeah, what inspires me now I think the one thing I feel like my 20s were a little different, right? So a lot of music that's often about like, heartbreak and breaking up, or will we or won't we like just for whatever reason, like I kind of, I found my partner quite young. And we had quite a different experience, like in our 20s. And so I guess sometimes that music even I can really love it. It's not necessarily themes that I'm super drawn to. I guess I'm drawn to themes, like Yeah, so I really loved clear that Bowditch I've never known whether it's Bowditch about it, by the way, but you know what I mean? Yes, I do know, album that came up, actually, when my son was quite little. That was the whole theme was grief. Yeah, I, that had a huge impact on me, because I was like, Oh, you can write a whole album on grief. Like, you don't have to write a whole album on like, you broke up with me, and I'm gonna break up with you. And now we're back together. Because I guess a lot of like, songs in the popular culture are still like, some version of a love song. Yet she wrote this incredible indie pop album on grief. So do you remember what the name of that album was? I do now it was what was left. So it was. That's funny that I just said it. Yes. So she made the album in 2005. And my son was born 2006. So I really remember listening to that. I don't even remember that I was stuck in a lot of grief at the time. But it was more like there were growing up themes. You know, there were real life themes. And they were themes that I kind of that really resonated with me so that that album actually had a huge impact because it showed me that there were other things I could write about. And I could write about things that were really real to me. You know, one of the songs that is on my new album that is still you know, in we're in the process of making and releasing is actually just all without boundaries, I would not have written a song about boundaries when I was 18. Because it's not very sexy at all. I really like it. You know, like, that stuff's important to me. Yes. So, so that album had huge impacts and a huge impact on me. from more of a lyrical perspective, yeah. And then like, musically, my tastes have just never really changed because they were always broad to begin with. And they remain really broad. So I listened to a lot of music that I know I'll never make, like I listen to a lot of neo soul. I'm probably not going to make me I mean, I love it. You know, Jill Scott is one of my favorite singers. And I also just know straight up that I will never sound anything like Jill Scott or make me look like us. But I still love absolutely love her. So I don't. Yeah, don't necessarily always listen to a lot of music that's similar to the music I make. But I don't know, I think that can really make help you be really well rounded to when you're really open to all sorts of styles. And, yeah, I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Oh, hey, puppy. Sorry. I had my cat in here before and she's got a little bell on a collar. And I was like, Don't scratch your head. It's actually not much of a back and normally I think maybe another dog walk by what sort of dog is he? He's a stuffy cross. We don't know what we use in rescue dog. Yeah, and he's one my heart big. Heart. Yeah, he's funny. Yesterday, I interviewed a lady and she had a stuffy as well. Oh, really? And it my son's been on this bandwagon that he wants to get a stuffy and I was like maybe the universe is telling me something. While banjo is a real sweetheart. Yeah, like he was pretty full on when we got him because he was a rescue and hadn't. Yeah, he we pretty much were starting from scratch with him. Yeah, yeah, he's just Yeah, cuddly and but anyway, I think he's still packing now. Good job AJ. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I was a new member too. Yeah, when you saying before about influences, but they're not necessarily what you put in your music. I appreciate the Beatles so much because of what they've allowed me to understand about how you can present your music. Like, you can do whatever the hell you want. Like, honestly, I play this. And like if you want to, like play, record your guitar solo, and then play it backwards. You can do that. And then you can. But the thing that got me was like, changes of tempo within songs and different elements that go together to make the same song but it's like you're just grabbing stuff from everywhere. And I was just like, I don't have I had a poster on my wall. I've got my Abbott poster up there. And I did have one but it failed. Me Oh my God, and harmonies, harmonies just a massive thing that I love so much. Yeah, it's just like, can just be shown what's like, same thing with your example. With clear it's like, you can write an album on whatever you'd like. Like, I call it the Taylor Swift music like the we broke up and we're getting back together. And then you didn't call me about you know, all this, which I see is really frivolous now, because I'm, you know, happily married and have lots of, you know, security about my life. But I think you know, I can understand where that fits in. But yeah, there's just so much depth to stuff and a singer songwriter that I really admire. Jen lash, I'm not sure if you've heard of Jen. She's a South Australian artist. And look her up. I think you'd really like her music. She's, and she's been a guest on my podcast, and I kind of see her as a bit of a mentor. I don't know if she knows that. Hi. All my mentors have no idea that they might Yes. She inspired me to be able to write songs about really difficult subjects, but make them really listening. So the musical in her words, the musical treatment that she gives that song allows it to be like received by people sort of thing. And about a topic that's very jarring. Yeah, maybe maybe the music can be jarring, too. But maybe you're gonna let more people in if allows that. Yeah. And so yeah, she really inspired me With a song that she wrote about postnatal depression called called Wolf, and when I heard I saw she sang it live. She came down here as part of a sort of a was called Palomino nights at the wall shed it was in this old watershed down in Glencoe. And she performed in this space and when I heard that song, I just went, oh my god, like it was like someone had slapped me in the face and gone. Yeah, you can do stuff about anything. Yeah, so she's really inspired me. Jen lash. Okay. Look her up. Jen's amazing. I love Jen so much. And she's listened to her episode, because she's got such an amazing way of speaking the way she articulates things. She's just such a wordsmith like, Ah, just love. I will definitely listen. Yeah. Yeah, just knowing that you can write about anything, I think was really? Yeah, that's definitely what that clear album did for me. And then you've got that album. She bought out years later, which was the winter I chose happiness, where the theme was almost about this kind of like, so she done his album about grief. And then years later, she did this album. But it wasn't that frivolous happiness. It was, like real choice. Like it was like an oyster kind of. And so again, that another album she might use later also had huge impacts on me like, oh, you can write about happiness without being cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So yeah, just, yeah. How good is music? So lucky? This? Pretty much you will never hear it all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People always, actually, because I work with students. They're often like, oh, have you heard blah, blah, blah. And I'll be someone a bit younger. So someone I haven't heard of. And, you know, my mind is just continually blown. Yeah. Let's see. I go through phases, like where I deliberately don't listen to current music, because I want to stay in the past in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to admit that I don't know what's happening right now in music. Like I just I like to know, I like to be able to sing along and I know what's coming. But then sometimes I think I'm missing out on so much, if I don't you know it, because there's so much amazing stuff being done. Some of it's a lot of crap. But there is a lot of crap. There is a lot of crap. And I think therefore we sort of go, it's all crap. Yeah, you can kind of like wade through the crap. There is also just some amazing. Yeah, there's sort of amazing music being made at the moment. But it's also not the music that's necessarily in the top 20. So yeah, that's it is more. Yeah. And I think over the years, I've become a lot. Obviously, as you get older, you understand things, you understand how things work, and the thought the whole thing about the NSA pop, you know, in inverted commas, because it's not necessarily I don't know, any music can be popular, but I'm talking about in a commercial sense. Yeah, it is really is just a big business. You know, it's just about producers, people, finding people, people making money off those people and, and the person themselves becomes the product. And yeah, always freaks me out a bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've come, I've come quite jaded of that. And, and not wanting to care. Like, I know, like, commercial radio is literally commercial radio. Like, it's just people, they pay the money to have the songs on. And so I've had a bit of a wake up call, like, for many years, it's like, I just want to be, I want to be on the radio, I want my songs on the radio. And then when I understood it, I was like, no, actually, I want my songs on community radio, because that's where the relationships are. And that's where your people care about the songs they're playing. They have a choice about the songs they're playing, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, you're so right. Like, I mean, yeah. Also, I think just the way music and how people listen to music is changing. So I'm not even sure anymore, that being getting on the radio isn't necessarily the golden ones. Still space for it. And especially think there's space for community radio, like here in Melbourne, we've got like PBS and triple out there, and they're huge stations, and they're amazing. And you know, to be on one of those stations. I think it's fantastic. But yeah, I don't know, you know, there are so many ways people can access music now that, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's probably one of many ways you can reach an audience, but maybe not sort of the only way. Yeah, it used to feel Yeah, absolutely. Quite, sort of, unless you were on the radio. It was like no one ever heard. You know, you can pay people to put your music on things and they were know, yeah, totally. But I mean, it's the world, isn't it? Yeah. Do you very expensive to be an independent musician, you know? Yeah, that'sthe thing. Isn't it no one tapped me on the shoulder and goes, Hi, here's heap of money to record. Yeah, women? Oh, no, I'll do this and that for you. It's very parenting into the mix. I think it's, and I think that's part of the challenge is, I really believe in my music, I really do. I really think it's pretty good. You know, like, I'm not saying I'm the best out there or anything like that. But I know I can sing. I know I can write I know, I'm making a pretty good record. But when my confidence starts to fall down big time is actually when I start realizing like the costs in like releasing it and releasing it. Well. You know, whether it's paying a publicist or making a video or whatever, yeah. And then when you have children in the mix, it can be really hard to justify those costs when, you know, you've got to buy school uniforms, and CDs in classes and soccer, you know, like, it can seem really self indulgent, that you're really selfish. Yeah. So it's so that's probably where I'm finding myself at the moment a bit like, the confidence in the music is there again, which is so nice, you know? Because obviously, we have times where it's not. Yeah, but it's that kind of this is, this is such an endeavor to embark on. And how can I justify I can totally appreciate that. Like my husband said to me, when I print because I like to print say days and albums, because I think people's people still like to put things in means. I found what I when I used to play a lot of folk festivals, and I found that the seat Yeah, you still needed CDs. So like, yeah, so obviously, they're not gone. Yeah, I don't think they're gone. For them to be gone. Yeah, people are also buying finally again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People like a tangible thing, man. Yeah. And I think that the amount of effort that I end the people I'm, like, work with to do my artwork. I think that it deserves a bigger, you know, platform than just a tiny little square on the iPhone or whatever. You know, the actual your actual artwork. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, my husband is like, have you worked here? How many? So I should preface this, my husband's a financial planner, right? We can be really handy are really annoying. We could not be different worlds, honestly. So yeah, it's like, how many CDs do you have to sell to be able to make your money back? I'm just like, I am not thinking about this. I'm thinking about creating my music and giving it to the world. That is, I know, thinking about and I remember like me with my like pea size, math brain. first EP and sort of trying to do the maths and in the arm, like I can't do the bloody maths, I'm just going to do it like, yeah. And, you know, probably to be honest, years later, having a few boxes of CDs still stashed under a bit. Think it's the same for everybody. It's always a boxer CD so. Now I guess that this topic is sort of leading into something that I love to talk to moms about. And it sounds nasty when I say I love to talk to you about your mom guilt. But I find it such a fascinating topic. Yeah, we put ourselves aside like literally what we've just been talking about, like, we feel like we have to justify ourselves because you know, that money could be paid for the school fees, or could be for the groceries, you know, how how do you sort of approach that mom guilt thing? First of all, for years, I really resisted the term. And even with credit, I'd be like, Well, I don't have no guilt. Good on me. I don't believe in it. It's bullshit, and I don't have it. And then in the last few years, like of course I have, I experienced guilt as a human being and part of that is around my mothering. So yes, technically, I experienced mother guilt. I experience it often around time. So even though my kids are a lot older, my daughter in particular, she really misses me when I do things. And in many ways that's very sweet. And in other ways, it's really had, um, I can be like, you know, spending a fair amount of time and energy on my art, which I think is really fair, because I also give a lot of energy to other people. And she'll actually like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, maybe I was at the studio all day and all night and didn't get home like, and I try my best to like, you know, communicate that in advance that maybe once or twice where like, because they're not home like, you know Dad's home. So it's not like they're home alone. But that can be a real, like, she can be really upset with me that the next day was just like, I didn't know, I didn't know you would be out too late and well, and I feel really bad around that stuff. So I'm trying to get trying to get better at like, not changing what I do, because I think it's really reasonable that I'm sometimes busy doing stuff that almost I think I could, yeah, so I can experience guilt around that, kind of like the time away that it can be. And like I said before, I don't even know if it's guilt, but it's maybe like the justification around like, the financial side of things. Like I think the reality is, like, we sort of, we grew up in a world where the idea of being a musician, so 2025 years ago, it was like, Well, you just get good, and then you meet the right people, and then you get signed to a contract, and they'll give you lots of money, and you'll make records, and actually realizing that happens to such a small percentage of including musicians who we would consider to be quite big and successful. Like, they're still doing it in a very different way, I have friends who I would consider like, on paper to be much more successful than I am as musicians, and they're still working other jobs or, you know, looking for funding for certain things, you know, so it's a very, most of us not doing it that way. And the reality that I'm sort of facing at the moment, really, with this album that I'm making is that it's costing quite a bit to make. So not only am I not making money, at the moment, I'm actually spending money to make my own art, that's not a job. It's not like it's when you think about what a job, you go to work, and you get paid. I'm going I'm I'm doing a lot of work. And also forking out money. So so the whole kind of, what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it can kind of creep in sometimes because it's not if you're if you know, I call it work, I call it like, you know, I'm an artist, and I'm working and I'm this is my project. But if I'm really honest, right now, it's sort of not work. It's, it's not bringing in, it's not bringing home the bacon. So I think the guilt can then arise when because we live in a capitalist society, where we value money. So I find it much easier, even now, even after all these years, it's much easier for me emotionally, to ask, for instance, for someone to babysit my kids, because I'm teaching because teaching brings home money. And so there's like, this is the most important thing in the world that we all need to do, we all need to make money, because that's the society we live in. And I need to go and make that money. So I feel quite justified. There's that word again, in getting help with the kids because we've got to make that money. But then I really can struggle with the same kind of asking for help or reprioritizing things to say, like make this record because it's not bringing in the money. And I think that comes down to Yeah, like we live in a society that still doesn't value things. Paying. So I trying to really, really kind of remind myself that this is an important expression of who I am. And that's why I have to give it time, and maybe that's why I even have to give up. You know, money. Because, yeah, it's I don't know, I hate talking about money, it makes everyone feel really uncomfortable. But I think it's also really important. It's a huge part of it can be a very big barrier to making art. And, yeah, when you have a family, it can be a barrier that you put on yourself because it just doesn't feel kind of right. But I'm really sort of trying to lean into the feeling that I have that for me at the moment. It is right and it is okay. But yeah, so I think it's really interesting, I think, yeah, how what we value in this society still often comes down to like, how much money you make from it. But why not just think of all the great artists you know, like, I mean, it's such a it's such a cliched example. that Van Gogh, you know, didn't make any money and we all now know that he's just the most brilliant artist. So just trying to like remember that this art is important and to try and not feel that guilt, whether it's the financial guilt or the time away guilt, which is a big one that I tend to feel. Well, the other the other guilt that I can sometimes feel is when I'm, and I'm sure a lot of parents might relate to this is when I really go for it, like I'm diving into a really creative space, whether it's just like, oh my god, like these songs are just churning within me or like I've booked out a few days in the studio, I'm just going for it, I'm the the first thing to kind of fall apart is just all the shit at home like dishes, washing, yep, eating healthy food. And again, I think that's a very sexy thing to talk about, like it's pretty boring and unglamorous. But part of our job as parents, I guess, is to kind of keep on top of some of that stuff. And I'm very, very aware that I have a partner who does more than 50% of that stuff. So I really can't complain. Especially, you know, I speak to a lot of females with male partners and, and find out that even though it's 2022, they still seem to seem to take on a huge percentage of that, and I know that I actually don't so I'm very, very fortunate. However, yeah, I can still feel like when I'm really kind of diving into some artistic spaces, mentally or emotionally, the house just turns to absolute shit. And, and that can actually bring up a bit of guilt for me too. Like, well, we're eating takeaway again, because I don't have time to cook because I've written five songs. Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another aspect of mom guilt that I definitely feel and I try to be okay with. exists, and we just have to, like, kind of know that it exists and acknowledge it. Like, I'm feeling guilty right now. Why is that reasonable? Am I being too hard on myself? Actually, it's, it's really fine that I've done those things, and it's fine. And then, you know, the, the other thing we've got to remember is occasionally guilt is healthy, and it is telling us something. Yeah, maybe I'm feeling mom guilt, because I actually haven't spoken to my kids for days. And I need to fix that, you know, like, so actually, like, might Yeah, I just try to be aware of how I feel, and then kind of sit with it, and then work through whether it's like, you know, a feeling that I need to kind of listen to or a feeling that I can sort of go that that's just like your kind of inner critic getting pretty loud in your head. Yeah, it can really your inner critic has one or two important things to say as well. So just knowing you is unhealthy, and when it might actually be just telling you something that you better like, come on. Yeah, no, that is the fourth time this week. They've beaten junk. So maybe it's really important tomorrow to prioritize some vegetables. You know what I mean? Like, so? Absolutely. I think yeah, I think you're right, I think you can definitely serve a purpose. It's definitely not a place. Yeah. But then when it turns into this, and I, whenever I say, ma'am, you I do the air quotes, because I feel like it's just the term has been constructed by a new social media hashtag, you know, it's this theme. This this plan, and, and that's why I hate saying it, but I feel like it's when I say, Do you feel guilty? That sounds really creepy. You know? You're not really, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that guilt? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty. Can we all please feel guilty together? It's just on the women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we'll see. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? over last year, I did a couple of Father's Day episodes, especially ones where I chatted to dads about and it's it's a different kind of guilt. Yeah, they certainly feel it. But just, I think they're not expected to feel I think that's the difference. We're the ones who are supposed to wear it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And even like, I'm, like I said before, like, we've sort of really set our lives up, in a way, you know, in our family where I guess we don't necessarily play those traditional gender roles. Like, at the moment, I work more than my husband, like an extra day, he does all the washing, because I'm really bad at it. I don't know, he's actually much better at like remembering the admin sort of stuff around, you know, our that notice needs to be handed in. And we've got to pay that, you know, I'm pretty bad at all of that. So even though I live in a relationship that has really kind of, we've really intentionally tried to not just play those roles that can fall on you, because you are male, or female or whatever. Even within that year, I think I experienced more of the emotional kind of guilt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll ask him and find out that. Maybe, yeah, maybe. So even if within your kind of nucleus family, you've got something really going on. That's pretty kind of countercultural, or whatever. We still are in a society that puts pressure on women and mothers to do it all and be at all. Yeah. And so yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not feeling guilty about the parenting and I'm really focusing on the parenting and, you know, doing great there, then I sort of start to feel a bit guilty about, oh, I'm not really doing any art or singing. So like, it's a little. A little sometimes that's just a load of crap. Whoever said that. He was the first person that said that should just because it mean, you can't you can, I heard someone say you can do it all. But you can't do it all at the same time. You know, like you go through phases in your life where, you know, your children are young. So you're focusing on your children, then you do your art, like, you can't, you can't do it all, you physically cannot do it all and also, mentally and in your heart. You can't do it all because you're torn all over the place. You know, totally. I also think I think just the way my brain works is I'm not very good at multitasking. So I think those people like I'm really good at like, diving in deep. So if I'm so I'm writing today, I'm probably just long writing. And if I'm just like, all in with like, hey, it's my day off, and I'm going to clean the house and I'm going to cook a really nice dinner and I'm going to pick my daughter up from school and we're going to go out for a milkshake, then I'm going to do that really, really well to not very good at trying to do both of those things at once. Yeah, I've always said yeah, you can do it all if you want to do it all pretty badly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you spread yourself so thin that nothing gets done. I don't wanna say well, but to the way that you probably want it to be done. You know? Yeah. Nice myth, isn't it? It's an urban myth. So going back to your your music and your identity, how you see yourself as a mother and as a musician and an artist, is it really important to you that your children's see, and I don't want to say I'm putting it in quotes, again, that you're just a mom, because you're never just a mom, that you are contributing to the world. Your your voice is being heard what you're saying is a value. Is that something that is important to you? Yeah, I think it's extremely important to me, both of my children in very different ways, obviously, showing to me that they're very creative people. And so I we really want to nurture that in them. Like my son is an amazing writer, like really incredible writer. My daughter is a natural dancer. And actually, funnily enough, I think she's also a really good singer, too. I have to like, listen out when she doesn't know I'm hearing it. Because I'm a singer. Yeah, there's some stuff there that we'll probably have to unpack that one day because yeah, she's a really great singer. When she was really little, I'd hear her in her room, listening to music, but harmonizing Oh, what? Oh, okay. Um, but she's pretty. She's done it a bit in the past in the last few years, like, if I'm like, Hey, John is seeing this, she's actually pretty reluctant. And that's fine. Like, I'm so not gonna push that. But I think she does have some natural talent there. Anyway, they're both really creative. And I think that's so beautiful. And so I would hate to be kind of creating an environment where they don't see that that's a really normal thing that you would want to foster their dad to. He's very creative. He he like, he wouldn't call himself a professional musician, but he loves music, and he plays in the past. He hasn't done it for a while, but he used to do like, some street art. He's always building things, you know, I'll say something like, oh, we need a box to plant some daffodils in and literally the next day. He's just found some wood and made a box. So and yes, he's a good visual artist. So pink growing up. I hope seeing that art is something that nourishes you. And, and yeah, I hope I hope I'm not I hope I'm modeling to them that I really love music, I guess the one worry I have is that they might see all the stress behind it. Yeah, I think they Yeah, so I know, it's really important to me that they know that creativity in whatever way or shape, you know, like, it doesn't have to be music. But creativity is something to be that we should honor and chat and spend time on. And that doesn't have to make you money. And if you make your living, you know, my son grows up one day to be a writer, my daughter grows up Monday to be a dancer. Wow, how amazing. But that's not even what I mean. It's it's about expression and about, you know how happy they are actually, when they do those things. And actually, I think when they see me when you strip away or they're like, I'm trying to be an independent music in the world, and I'm applying for funding, and I'm very, very strict like that when they actually see me like sit at the piano and just play and just seeing this seeing me really in my most pure kind of happy state. And they see that all the time. Yeah. So. So I think I'm more I'm hope that I'm modeling to them that in whatever way it looks like for you. And it can change as you change that creativity is just a really important thing to nurture within yourself. Because I think everyone is creative. Actually. Everyone. Yeah, but not all of them have been taught that that's okay. Or it's worth fostering or looking after? Yeah, I think. And maybe this is, I think, based on my experience with some people I've met along the way that a lot of angry people I know, are people who are not allowing themselves to be very creative and switch somewhere. And they just sort of hate everyone. And I really think that if you are if you allow yourself to, you know, yeah. Be creative. However, that is. I think you just yeah, like it's a bit cliche, but you're sort of tending to your soul a little bit. And then I think you just live in the world in a more well rounded, happy away. Yeah. So yeah, put that so well. Thank you. Very important to us, actually, as a family that we yeah, we do it and therefore hopefully, they just naturally do it, too. Yeah, that's it. Like like yourself growing up in your family, you saw that that is just part of a normal, everyday existence. This is not something that's out of the ordinary. You maybe didn't realize that till later. But, you know, this is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life like you don't have to be afraid of this. Yeah. And there have been times you know, when like, the kids were little aware, I wasn't spending heaps of time on music, but I actually was always being creative. So when I wasn't making music, I was I was writing the scenes. And when I wasn't writing scenes, I was like, bought a sewing machine. And I was trying to sew think I wasn't very good. But like I was sewing. Yeah, quarter like gardening now for me is a big one, like, so it's also like music is the thing that I come back to because I think, I don't know. It's like, it's in my DNA. It's who I am. And it's how I express myself in the world. But also just there are so yeah, showing them that there's just so many ways to be creative. Yeah, they can be small. They don't have to be big. Yeah, that's it and they don't have to be for anybody else. And they don't have to be clever monetary value placed on the me that they can be something. It's something for yourself, you know, so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Best Use of my garden and losses, concert was born? Can you share with us what you might have coming up? You mentioned about your album that you're working on? Yeah. Have you got? And also have you got? I mean, I guess shows us starting up again in the world have you got anything you want to share that you've got coming up? Oh, so that Yeah, so the big, big one for me at the moment is the album that I've been making. And it's been a really long labor of love, like I always knew it would take time. But then right in the middle of it, we had a two year pandemic, which has had so many impacts a, it has impacts on time, because you can't like get to the studio. And then the other thing, like we've talked, we've talked about money a little bit today. But one of the things I do as a singer is, you know, when I do that backing vocals gig or I go on tour with that person on BBS, or I do that session work, that all generally gets generated back into the art that I make. So I lost all of that work. So then so so it's not just the time factor has slowed the record down, but it's actually the the income coming in to generate back into it slowed down as well. So COVID has really impacted it in a really huge way. However, we're really close to finish, like we finished recording the music, we're now mixing it and mastering it. And the hope was to release it at the start of this year. And now it's like we're going to release it towards the end of this year. And again, like you can have a plan. I don't know, I'm actually feeling really good about that. Now, I'd like you to have said right at the start, like, you've got time, you don't need to rush. Yeah. And I, I had a bit of an opportunity last year where I did something on TV. And so I was like, right, I've got to release it now because I got to ride that wave I'm gonna work out and I was like, Oh, I really disheartened by that. But in hindsight, it would have been rushed. And it actually wouldn't have been very good. And, and now I feel really good about sort of almost mapping out, you know, I don't know, like a six month plan and, you know, sharing the music, my music with the world really well and properly. So I don't have any gigs booked at the moment, because I'm super focused on the album. And what like, you know, as much as I hate to say it, social media plays a really big role in building my audience. So like, if anyone listening to this wants to follow me on the socials that would really be amazing. Or even sign up to my mailing list. Yeah, yeah, definitely put all the links, I'll put all the links in for people there. Cool. That would be really great. You know, that is sort of these days, I guess how we reach to a certain extent, at least, our audience, and of course, I would like to be gigging again. But I'm also really pacing myself, I want to do things well. Yeah. I don't want to just be throwing things together and quickly hopping back on stage. So we yeah, we will definitely be playing some shows when the album comes out, or there's single release or whatever. But yeah, choosing to take my time choosing to remember. Yeah, that I've got time. Yeah, that's what I think I think we can all take something from that, that it's, you know, we have got time. We don't have to rush. It's not a race and not to do things at our own pace. Yeah, totally. And obviously, the flip side to that is like, sometimes you need to give yourself a deadline. Otherwise, maybe I'll just be doing this for the next 10 years. So I know the deadline for me is by the end of this year, but what that looks like I still don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing and yeah, maybe yeah, if people find me on social media, then yeah, if a gig pops up, and sometimes I'm doing gigs for other people, you know, like, I might be backing vocals for someone and I can share that as well. Yeah, but at the moment, I'm actually yeah, just tucked away doing all the behind the scenes work. Yeah, all the really hard work. Oh, my God, I know, right? Jumping on stage at the NCAA. Put me in front of like 1000 people or 2000 people and tell me to sing no problem. Put me in a room with like two people where I'm like asking for funding and I'll be days before Yeah. And that's the thing too, like, unless you're in that musician, where Old, or even the artists will, all you see is that in result, all we see is that in product, so you don't understand all the stuff that goes in behind the scenes to make that product, you know? True and like, you know, I think I think I read it somewhere that way, often comparing our kind of, like, we know what we're doing behind the scenes. So we know how hard it is and how messy it is and how not not ready it is yet we can get that to like what everyone else's end product that they're showing online is, and I think it's we're gonna do that too. Like, eventually, when I released this album, it's probably going to look quite nice and shiny and like, hey, look, but like, yeah, we're hearing the journey, you know, to the destination of others. And that's not a very smart thing to do. Probably not very helpful. Your, your album journey sounds like mine, mine is just taking forever. And I don't care because I hate sitting. I hate setting deadlines, because I hate that pressure. Because you know, life happens and you have children. And you know, you can't just go by, I have to do this for my 14 year old having a breakdown, like Italy's life, and it's so good. So I'm working with these producers who are overseas, and they just only because we have nothing here and that Gambia we don't have access to any sort of recording studios or anything. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know this is the world now. You know, it's amazing. And sorry, I'm just gonna blog for a sec. But yeah, they're in Spain and Argentina. So I basically send them a video of what I want, I bang out the chords on my old Casio and say, this is the idea I've got, then they send back their idea made on computer instruments. And always I say yes, that's amazing, because it always is. And so then they, they organize the musicians to play it properly. Then they send it back and I do my vocals and then they mix it. So they're doing everything apart from mastering it. So it's just like, and I can just sit here in my little room in the middle of nowhere. And this album and I'm, it's so wonderful. I think, you know, there's so much stuff around technology that can bother me and just, and then I hear a story like that. And I'm so excited. I'm like, that's now a possibility. You're working with producers saying, you know, and me years ago, to know that this was coming that this was possible, I would never have believed it. You know, I always had this idea that I live in this little town. I didn't I never wanted to leave my little town because I love it. You know, I was born here. I've got my kids here. Even Adelaide, it's only five hours away, or Melbourne five hours away. But it's a different world. So I've never wanted to pick up and go right, I'm gonna go there and make my career. It's like, No, I want to do it in my, in my own terms in my own way. And it's like, finally the time has come. I can do it. You know. I love that. Yeah. bloom where you're planted, you know? Yes. You know, other people might have a completely different, you know, they do want to move and they want. And that's great. But I agree like, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to. That's the cool thing about being an artist. You can forge your own way. There's actually no real like, we think there's a way you've got to do it. But then when you start to talk people, everyone's winging it. Yeah. That's for some people that's moving overseas for other people. It's so not that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really exciting. Well, I can't wait to hear it. You'll be waiting a bit longer. I know these things take time. Okay, with that, I think yeah, and that's thing too, if you if you're the sort of person that can be settled and go, Okay, when it's ready, that's fine. You can you can do this. But if you're the sort of person it's like, I have to do I have to get done. You could not do this. You'd be off to wherever to record but you know, that's the great thing, too. We're all so different. And that's what makes the world go yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Today, Ms. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. I really loved it. Thank you so much. You're so lovely to talk to me about music and I love talking about my kids. So it's a pretty it's a pretty nice thing to do to sit down and have a chat with you. Yeah, no, thanks. It's been great. I've loved it. Always good. Always good to get a bit of Beatles chat in there somewhere. Anytime, Ill have to tell you my Paul McCartney story another time. Oh, okay. All right, To be continued. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review Are you following or subscribing to the podcast? Or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested? If you or someone you know who'd like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Gerda Moser - Kindler Hungarian born flautist, composer and pianist S2 Ep34 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Gerda Moser-Kindler is a flutist, pianist, composer, producer and mother of 1 based in Saltzburg, Austria. Gerda was born and raised in Hungary where music came naturally to her as both of her grandparents from her mother’s side were classical musicians and music was all around her during childhood. Gerda decided very early on in her life that she was going to be a professional musician. She moved to Austria to study Flute at the Mozarteum University and fell in love with the city. After playing classical, jazz and even flute beatbox concerts for many years, she started to produce music for theatre and film. In 2020 she released her debut album “The Fragrance Of Memories”, which is a genre-bending experience between neo-classical, folk and new age, and 2 singles Deceptive Lights released in 2021 and Prayer for a Child in 2020 under the guise of Szintra Gerda enjoys playing instruments from all around the world including the Hungarian Water Reed Pipe, Native American flute , and Dizi Bamboo Flute from China . She creates music from the Hungarian folk, new age, mediation, fantasy and neo classical genres, and describes her core genre as melancholic neoclassical. **This episode contains discussion about premature birth** Gerda website / Instagram Listen to her music Spotify and itunes ArtFeeders Podcast - instagram / website Gerda’s music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in. My guest today is guelder masa Kindler. ganda is a flutist pianist, composer, producer, and a mother of one based in Salzburg in Austria. Ghana was born and raised in Hungary where music came naturally to her as both for grandparents from my mother's side were classical musicians and music was all around her during her childhood. gelded aside decided very early on her life as she was going to be a professional musician. She moved to Austria to study flute at the Mozarteum University and fell in love with the city. After playing classical jazz, and even flute beatbox concerts for many years, she started to produce music for theatre and film. In 2020, she released her debut album, The fragrance of memories, which is a genre bendy experience between neoclassical folk and new age, and she since released two singles, deceptive lights in 2021, and prayer for a child. In 2020. She releases her music under the name of Sintra gather enjoys playing instruments from all around the world, including the Hungarian WaterAid pipe, Native American flute, and the ditzy bamboo flute from China. She creates music from the Hungarian folk, New Age, meditation, fantasy, and neoclassical genres, and describes her core genre as melancholic neoclassical. This episode contains discussion around premature birth. Good, good evening. To you and good morning for me. We have 9am Wow. And it is cold and a little bit also dark so. Oh, you're in Austria. Now. We born in Hungary? Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I'm here still. 9099 it's, this is 21 years ago. I moved here to study. And since I'm living here, and it wasn't planned to stay here, but I met my husband and I also got easier job here. So I stayed. And I love to live in Zionsville This is a very special unique city, you know, Mozart, really old houses from 1412. Something like this. In light of nature, a lot of nature. A lot of culture. A lot of shops. Munich, just two hours from here, Vienna just three hours from here. So it's also really good. Good to live. Very expensive. Very, very expensive to live. Yes, it's for artists, not maybe the best city. But well, I am here and I stay here I think yeah. Oh, that's lovely. So tell us about all the different instruments you can play. I've been following your, your stories on your Instagram account with all the instruments. Well, basically, I'm playing the flute. I will start if I was nine years old, and I got really classical normal musical education. And I wanted to play the oboe. Yeah. And in the country side in the small town. Yes, we are sorry, we don't have the teacher for this. And then I had to change my mind. Okay, what can I play? Okay, woodwind. It's cool. Because after that you can play in the, in the brass band for children. And then I started to play the flute. But if I was, I was 13, I think I decided to be a professional musician. I want to make this and then you have to play the piano, of course. And then I started to get piano lessons. And I really loved it. And I I had a great teacher at the university too. So I made I was I made the education for being a flute teacher. And then it's also important that you can company your students a little bit. Yeah, so I had the piano lessons. And I was really, really good in piano and my teacher asked me, don't you want to make also piano teaching education? And I said, Okay, I would really love it. But I know have time to practice both instruments. Yeah, in that high level, it's not possible so I didn't do it. And well, I have different fluids of course, I bought in China Aditi This is a Chinese a Chinese bamboo flute. And I I bought a bass TT from sandalwood. And they send me to Australia. Yes, please track your order and say Welcome Hi. So great. Your fluid is arrived in Sydney and I oh gosh, know what, it's Austria and Australia. Story I never thought but this is a real story. It happens it happens. So I got the flute three I think three or four months later later and I had to write to the shop and they know this is not true. They are not key or DC surely the delivery post office is somewhere else. And then I got the packet and there was the address. They send it really to Australia. So it was from so this is why special connection to Australia. And and yes I also have a Hungarian wood flute from Plum. Oh wow. So this this is a folk instrument. And the newest baby is an American Native flute. This is a double barrel shortcut and yeah, it was cool. I always try to buy a flute this is not so high. I love this sound from bass. But I have two small hands and two small fingers and the most of the flutes are too big and the holes are too wide. And so I have two problems with this Chinese based easy to play I get to appear it's it's not really good to play for me. And this Native American flute has an accompany just a drone sound always the same. And the other side with your fingers. You can also play the melody and yes, this is a daughter spirit to sound I really Love and I get a lot of great feedbacks. So I think I have to buy another flute also the same it is on 4032 Hertz. Yeah this is the resonance from the earth. Yes, yes. Yes. So this is the the next plan the wider next Instagram it sounds like perfect you know it just has that beautiful you can just close your eyes and it is it's a connection to the earth. It's just amazing. I just love it. Yes, the sacred is reverb. Yeah, yeah speed out. It's true. I got the booklet to it and also a DVD. Really high professional. It's a great shop and in the big booklet you can read it it is highly recommended to put a reverb because without it's just a little bit I don't know the word in English not wet dry. It is so dry and you cannot feel this flying away and all this thing and and I make my experiences the last video was too much reward. I played next video with that it was a little bit too much but you can play with it and and change then the the whole sound from it. Yeah. And yes, meditation music. Yes, I think it's also I think for my future for my nearly future yet I'm really interested in Yeah, I listened to some of you your music and your name of Sintra, Sintra, Sintra, Roma, Sintra, it is maybe an English Sintra? I have a very hot air like a pair. Yeah. Okay. I really enjoyed listening to that to do so you, you play all the instruments yourself, you play your piano and then you do layer on top of your with your other instruments. Yes, I always play the piano. I always play the piano. It is never computer made something. It is a computer sound. And I have a Clavinova an electric piano I can control with. I can connect with my computer. But I always play by myself. And the rest is of course this is an an instrumental music orchestra music. I'm trying now for my second album to make a chamber orchestra not this always this really big thing. And these instruments are usually computer instruments are not not not a real violin. I know some of the people for example, in Bogota in Colombia, Colombia, you could play for me and send the audio but then you have lots of people and you have to to have a budget for this and I don't have the money to pay a whole orchestral base. So this is difficult and I had an opera singer yeah at the first album in the Peace friends a know her and she was coming to us from grads This is another city to us desire to work and be paid the travel coast and and and everything for her and of course Gaza but what does it mean the money if you get the boat The payment for the test. Yeah, you know. And she was really singing live we had a studio for this we paid for the studio with the audio engineers. And and she was really singing. And I had a guitarist. He's teaching at them your motorhome at the university. This was live and a contra bass. Because I also wanted something really warm, natural, basic. But it was it was the last order or rest is too much money. Yeah. Not still I don't have it. Maybe in the future. I can say yes. I would like to have this orchestra or this. Yeah. Yes. To have dreams and goals. Like, you know, in the future. It might happen. But you know, it's good. Yes, yes, yes. You can think about it and meditation and to manifest it in your mind. And yep, it will, it will happen. Absolutely. You got to put it out there. You've got to you've got to make it feel like it's real. And then it can come to yours. Yeah, for sure. So you decided very early on when you were 13 that you were going to do music as your career, you were pretty sure that music was going to be a big part of your life from a very, I had the problem that I was interested in several things. I loved sport and I wanted to be a karate master with six. And my parents said no, you have to learn German. Okay. Okay. I started to learn in kindergarten with three years because the half of my family, the family from my father. The roots are German. And I was really interested in drawing and painting. Literature, write stories. And then yes, of course music too. And in half in Hungary, we have a system you have to decide really early. But you would be like in the future and you are 14 and this is too early, I think. But you have to decide to change to the gym, to a higher school, from primary school with 12. And then if you if I was 14, I, I changed for the special school for music. And I think I'm not sure my grandparents from mother's side were musicians too. And they died both if I was in the primary school. My grandfather if I was nine, when I was nine and my grandmother I think I was 11 and before she died, she sent me a message. Please never stopped to make newzik Also if is just the whole pay for you. Because newzik makes life beautiful. And I didn't understand it really as a child but I knew that this is something really important. It has to be important if she won to say to me before she died, and I think it was just the strongest feeling inside the strongest connection from all the other things I like and and history and I don't know, yes. But music was always next to me and inside of me and and I decided to me, for me, and not everybody was really happy musician's life is really hard. And my mom also knew it from from the parents. Yeah. But they always supported me. And then I jumped in and I, I had to swim from that was no stopping. Yeah, yes. Yeah, that's a beautiful memory to have with your grandmother with that message that she gave to you to hold on to and, you know, if you're ever I don't know, if you're ever having moments where you're, you're sort of not sure what to do or you know, you're struggling you can you always have that just to fall back on not always keeps you going. Yes, yes, yes. I didn't have a lot of time with them. I was a small kid. And I just started to play the flute. And my grandfather died. And my grandmother lived in the capitol in Budapest, and we, the countryside, but I had the opportunity to visit her sometimes. And then I had to take the flute and stand in the living room, and you're playing now and what you have to do on stage and how you have to say it, and what's right, what's not how you have to communicate with your audience. I could learn a little bit from her. And it was it was not, not a long time. Not much time with her but really significant. She was a singer. And she had this holding your body proud. You are a woman, you are an artist. You go outside, and you do this now. Perfect. Not somehow you do it. Perfect. So again and again. And again. It's not enough. Not Not it's not good. Again, please. I stood there. Oh, Gosh, gosh, so serious. Okay, now I have to do it. I can do it. And this few times with her. It helped me so much. So locked in after that. And I really not recognized that. It was inside planned inside and I had it. I had it. So it was really important. Yeah, that's wonderful. I lost my grandma. We called her Nana when I was 10. So around the same age. Yes. And she was the first one that bought us our first we used to play the organ. So like the two two keyboard organ she was the first one that bought bought it for my sister and when we when we were kids, so yeah, I've got that similar connection where she she didn't play. But she was sort of recognized that, you know, we had we had an interest in music and sort of helped her to foster that. So yeah, I remember hearing when many I like I write songs about her and you know, she's influenced me even though she's been gone for so long. But yeah, yes, it can hold really long. Yes. And maybe it's it's too early. The information is too early maybe now. But you can you can save it somewhere and if the time now, right? Yeah, okay. It comes out and you have it and you feel it and you know it. Oh my gosh, it was because of this now I understand. And Thank you grandma. System message from the past. Yes. That's lovely. I love that. How many children do you have? I have one a daughter. She's four years old. And her name is Camilla. That's a beautiful name. Yes, I slept for a very long time. No, I, I wanted a name for her. You can speak out in Hungarian and also in German too, and you don't get troubles because a lot of Hungarian names are complicated to speak in German. And you change the letters and it sounds totally different and this is not the Hungarian name. And I also wanted that you can write it in Hungarian. And you are able to read it right in German. So a key usually you you you you use C for Camilla but I've write with write her name with Hungarian with key so ca Mila so it was not easy to find like this. But it was a it was a really interesting talk on the TV a Hungarian talk with different woman's women I don't know psychologic and and issues about how to work and being woman something like this. And one of the guests had this name Camilla. And it was written then underline and I read it and yes, yes. I have it. It was also a bit strange but I thought okay, Camilla Moser Kindler This has also a read and everybody can speak it out and write it and yes yes, this was the story. Oh, I love that. So Did you know Did you know you were having a girl or did you have a boy's name picked out as well just in case you had a boy and the first few months I thought to get a boy and I started also to search but because I have a chore German last name Kindler and my husband has has an Austrian name Moser I, I wanted to have a Hungarian name for the first name and it it was not possible to find a boy name. You can spell it the same and speak out in the same way in in German. So I was okay this is a covey law. Yes. Thank you. It worked out perfect goodness. Yes, it was a problematic parts to find a name for a boy Yeah. When you were pregnant with Camilla we're still playing? Yes, yes. I had a really comfortable unproblematic pregnancy i i made sporty Lian with her so just pregnancy program. And she also liked it. I felt inside that she she liked to move and have extra and I also was teaching till the end. It was a little bit difficult in the sevens moms to lie laying down on the floor, for example, and to show some of the brief exercises for flute Yes, something like this, it was not really possible to breathe. So you know, as a singer Well, where are my volume? And I headed it? No, it's the baby inside. And that was a at the time. I didn't play concerts anymore. So I didn't have these gigs and concerts, but I was teaching and yes, it was not a problem for me. Yeah, great. Yeah. I like to whenever I get in a musician, a singer or you know, like in your case with the woodwind I love to talk about hey, how you went when you're pregnant? It's just it's just so funny. Like you try and breathe and there's like no room to breathe like your diaphragm is hiding under this somewhere you can't access the breath. Yes, you are used to have this speak for human you know you this take you for seven liters in the lung and then what what I can can do it. Oh my gosh, so it was uncomfortable. It was it was nerve racking too. And I started to eat something really stupid things I really don't like you know and then you think oh my gosh, why I like to eat this now. I hated my whole life. And I have to eat this now and it is delicious. It's so crazy. Is the cravings after my pregnancy I stopped to eat this different stretch legs so that that was that was it was not a problem? After you had Camila How long was it before you're able to start playing again we you obviously you might not have been go out and do shows or gigs. But were you able to to use your music as sort of a way to transition yourself I suppose into that change of life. At the first time. I wasn't able to make music. I had to stop with everything. Camila came also two months earlier. Oh, she was she was a preemie. And we had to stay with her in the intensive care unit for two months. And we had a totally different start after that at home. Yeah. And where the flute is a really loud instrument. So if you are practicing like a typical classical musician, it will be loud. And it was not possible with a baby. Yeah, it were too loud for her. So I I kept just one student a week at certain malls I think. Yeah, from November so the first three months really nothing. Not to touch the piano not to see not to find my flute. Where is my flute? What is a flute? Let's let me sleep please. Where is the bed? Where is my coffee? Oh my gosh, three days over. I have to take a shower and wash my hair. And each second hour you have to feed your baby and take the change the nappies and this this was the program and and I think after the after three months at home at home. Camilla came in summer, and we were able to go home at the end of August. So at the beginning of of autumn and then I think just before we Before winter, I started to play again a little bit piano because I I had this problem, I lost connection to music fully. And it was totally important to me to keep somehow the connection. And then I, I pushed the baby bed from the sleeping room to the living room. There was my piano at the really very early morning at five e when everybody is sleeping, and everything, just quiet, and peace. And she was next to my piano. So I had the control what's happening, but she she was slipping. And I took my headphones and turn on my piano and just tried to play something. Yeah, to close my eyes and Okay. Oh, nice. This is F sharp. Okay, nice. Maybe I would like to play more. You know? And these were the magical moments for me to feel okay, it's not everything lost. Yeah, yeah, music is here for you. And you, you can you can take the hand from music and, and she or he is here. And and then I started to compose, but it was not not planned that I will write pieces and I will release my first album. Not at all, it was really just trying to stay somehow inside of my own very special word. And to play the flute and teach more, it's still a problem. Yeah, problem. So I had sometimes shortcakes for example, a request, please, I composed a cool piece in medieval style, with hand pants and guitar, and you could play something with the flute, just an improvising. And it's free and cool. And you can create something without this pressure from classical. You have to play the Mozart exactly like this. And you will have to practice three weeks before each day four hours. So I was really happy to get these opportunities from some of the musician friends. But it was it was so regulary continuous to have concerts. It's it's still not not. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you sort of feel like that. That's sort of on hold at the moment until Camila gets a bit older, and then you might be able to go back into it. Do that a little bit more. Hopefully, yes, I'm trying. I mean, she will be five in summer. So she's not a small child. She She is really active and and a really hard character, you know, from the beginning, from the beginning, from the first week after her birth. And I think I have also give her the freedom to be a free child and not just always you have to stay next to me and I have to save you because you were a preemie on oh my gosh, you are a small child. No. Yeah. She is a strong personality and she she has a small body She's a child but but the mind and the soul. She is an own being. And I think this is also really important. And I'm trying now to look that we can live longer in the kindergarten a little bit longer, that I can also have more time in the morning next to household washing Cool, okay, go to the post and older things I really hate. Yeah. So, so much time, I could compose, I could practice, I could have a meditation, I could create something really cool, you know, and oldest things, I hate it, it is just a lot of rat of really good time is over, and I'm cooking for two hours, you know, really good, delicious two hours in the kitchen, then your family come and eat it in 10 minutes. And they say thanks, bye. Yeah, everything leaves there, you have to clean. I have to put the rest in the fridge. And in 10 minutes to two hours work in 10 minutes is everything over and the next day you can start again. So I hate it. And I am struggling with it all the time. I know it is. It's important. You have to do it. And I love to have order everywhere, then I am. I'm calm and I'm feeling well, is everything order. So with a four years old child is not so easy. So I'm just put here and put there and I come back to the living room and oh my gosh, I can't start again. And yeah, so this is this, this is still the problem. But if she can say longer in the kindergarten, then I have also more time. So I can organize from eight or half past eight to practice the flute till the till 10 Then make a short break and then compose for example, then to cook and then I can pick up my, my daughter and afternoon. Yeah, it's no stress anymore to think oh my god, I have to do this and this and this and this and this. Because we don't have food in the fridge. I would like to have something to dinner for my daughter one but nah, son without Banaras. And yes, we are on it with my husband to to organize it again, and start to build it with the time that we both have more time for working. It's also a financial question. So you cannot stay for four long years. With two hours work a day. It is not possible. Yeah, it's tricky balance, isn't it? It's Yes, yes, yes, these elements have to come together. That it's that you, you're still making music a priority in your life. Like it's so important to that you're you're trying to make it work. And that's fantastic. You know, I think that's because I decided to be a musician to become a musician. I did it my whole life. So this is the normal situation for me and for my mind and for my body. So I miss it. I think something is wrong. Yeah, you know, and, and this is also the way who I can how I can show my feelings, and also how I can work with it. It's it happened something sad or some something wrong. I can write it out. And I can send it also to other people also on Instagram. I have a great community from a lot of really excellent musicians and such lovely people. They say thank you, you write this song realize and yes, I'm feeling some of the stupid person did something really wrong to you? And yes, I had the same experience with somebody else. Yeah. And it's cool that you can show show this in your music and thank you for this. And it's such a good feeling. Yeah, it's really it's amazing. The connection That music creates between people like it's just, it's just amazing. That's one of my favorite things about music, all sorts of music is just the relationship builds and the connections you create with people. It's just it's wonderful. I love it. Yes, and you don't have to speak the accent. Make language so you can just sing and I can play the flute. And other can play the piano and we don't need the sheets and everything. And and we have fun, we have fun and we have immediately the connection and everybody around us can feel this positive energy and this one. So music is magic and I'm really, really thankful that I was able to learn music and and also a lot of thank you to my parents. They said, You go now that a music school, my child point. So I was too young, to SD I would like to end the no I don't like and next week, oh, maybe I would like you know, you are too young to decide. So significant things. And it was also a big part from my parents. Also, if I was I think 1010 or in or 12 I had this teenager week. I don't like to make music anymore. And I'd finished and I want to go out and have party be the others and like this. I had to practice inside and the other children was outside and had had fun and played. And my mother said, Hey, know, if you started something, you have to finish it. And if you finished it, you can start something new. I was totally angry, you know, I pushed it or something like well, I hate you all. And after a week, I was so thankful because I went again to this brass orchestra for children is breast band. And there were my friends and and the whole community. And I was so thankful that my parents didn't allow me just because I have now they think my hormones are good for them. Does your daughter Camila? Is she musical boy? Yeah, yes. My husband is hip hop and breakdancer. Oh right? Yes. And if she was small like one years, two years old. We visited a lot of hip hop events or soul break events open air with circa and jazz to showcase from others and after the workshop and she was always there and she could look and she could try so it was new music and dance immediately connected. And of course I played the piano and it was allowed always it is always allowed to go to the piano turn on and play if she want and she could play with me together we have a beautiful fruit photo from her I think she was maybe two years old with this small legs you know the short hair the little finger and sit on the piano and just push you know and she's such a happy girl and you think yes this this is a good way but I'm not pushing. Yeah, she's also have a simple flute. You know this? Yes, yes. And it's almost broken because she did it with the t zero. This is from vote. Nevermind I can buy another fluid but She played it just the one, the one, sour, something like this, and running in the room from other side with the flute, and play the piano. And we bought a sono tram. This is a beautiful small instrument you can also have also with fingers, and also with the stakes in C major and you can play the pentatonic, so it is really harmonique or so forth Chai for children, and you don't have to, to be able to read the sheet or something like this. She's She really like it. And I have a loop machine yet. And yesterday, my daughter asked, Hey, what is this, I want to try this now. And I said, Oh my gosh, this is technique. And it's really a long time ago, I used it I don't remember. So you have to ask your daddy. And they played it here in the living room. And she hold the microphone, and just saying some of the children from kindergarten. This mouse really Mouse voice, but totally serious standing with the microphone. And then of course loop you can hear it again but today and try it. And I tried to make a small recording and the photo and she told me Hey, mom go away. This is just a geek from Darien May. No photos, no videos, just leave. This is a geek from Darien five. Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry to disturb you. And yes, sometimes I also start to say, Come on, we do something. But usually she can do it free if she want. And it is also important to give her the possibility to try things. And to see new music is something really natural and normal. And also so important. And if she if she would like in the future, she can play an instrument. Or she can dance. But it's not important to me that she will be also a professional. Yeah. Yeah. You want to you wanted to come to it, because she wants to come to it not because you feel like you're forcing her and then you know, she might not enjoy it, then she feels like she has Yes, I know this, this situation from from this Western musical culture is really strong and hard. I had the same you you have to practice and you have to play all the things exactly like this. And it's also important to learn how you can work effective and really, really learn things and not just oh, I don't like it today. I don't don't do it today and three weeks away and you never touch it fluid. So it won't be work. But I think it's more important for all at the beginning to wake up the love for this. And and to check. Oh, it can make me so much fun. I can have fun with it. And this is not something I have to do because my mom wanted but I don't want it so I had more students, pupils in the in the music school. Kids from the primary school. So from from six to 1214 they really liked me. Yeah. But they, they didn't want to learn flute. They wanted to be in a soccer club for years, or be an artist in circles, you know, something totally different, but the parents wanted it. Yeah. And this is I think this is not the good way. So I definitely agree with that. Definitely You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I was singing. With your composing, does Camilla influence the work that you make? Oh, well, at the end now, I think yes, but at the time I start to compose my own stuff. It was 2017 it was just the board to keep connection. Yeah. And in my music, it wasn't really message inside it, it was just the feeling just a moment just lie, it's just colors. And I named it the fragrance of memories. So of course, there were a lot of memories in this music. But it didn't recognize really what I'm doing. And it was not yes, I want to say this and this and this with my music. In a certain year, if, when she was three years old, I, I felt this it became everything so clear. I turned also 40 Maybe it is significant here in lot of in the life from lots of woman, I don't know. But for me, it was I was before from the beginning, Camila was born, I felt in such a monotone spirit, what a desert. You know, it was everything monotone. Without art without imposes, it's just baby and you and you have to do this and this and all the time the circle. And and repeat and repeat repeat. And 2020 It was 2020 it was for a lot of people a terrible year. But for me personally, it was one of the best years because my mind opened it to the universe. And I got a lot of input it was just if your mind is standby, you know it's nothing happen. And to get the USB inside and the good Digga Digga, digga, Digga, digga Digga Digga informations you get it now. And you'll have it now on your computer. And and then I felt I'm on a new higher level, my personality and I am a new person now. And I know what I want and feeling everything much stronger and clearer. Also the people around me and also the energy from the people. So I could decide much faster. It is a person it's good for me. Or please leave. It's not good. And it's star that then we did that the second variable I started to compose new pieces. And it happened the first time to that I am sit down and wrote the whole thing. Yeah, in in 20 minutes or 10 minutes from the beginning to the end. And then I could stand up and say okay, it's finished. I said what I want okay, I know this is just a skeleton. Yes, I know. I have to write the harmony and orange more and blah blah blah, blah, blah. But this the strong feelings. Exactly. Yes. I don't know. Lies or true. Reflections self reflection for example, this feelings became really present and this is influenced in the next album is each each piece has exactly demotic and it is an exact story but happened to me and from about I'm speaking or I'm playing in this space yes yeah well have you got other people around you over there in Salzburg sort of going through the same thing having children and trying to keep creating their music not really. Unfortunately not. I had a friend she plays the piano, but she is furious older than me and she got married and got her children much earlier than me. And then we lost connection she became a mom from two children and I just lived my life and my concepts and oldest stuff and I I was an old mom because I became 37 When my daughter was born and other musicians with children the children are already in the primary school their seventh or eighth is not a not a shoe anymore. And some of the other are still not married and don't have children so they are working a lot and maybe they also don't want to have this family life just to create and make and the weekends are free and we can go out to make party also during the week isn't a problem or to have a trip somewhere. So for me it was not easy and I didn't know who I could manage how can things work? The only way for me was to stop totally everything and wait a few years. A few more years I hope just a few years yes that it work again. Yes. What how you said that Camilla is in she in preschool? Is what year do they how old are the kids when they start primary school over there a prime primary school she can start when she's six when she's six. Yeah. When she's six. So I think one and a half years one or two years on then then she can start yes but I hope I get it earlier I hope I got it earlier because I I'm feeling from time to time to go crazy. You know this this this just sitting and and not to create and not to do what what is inside and I have to give it out and it's really important to me from for my mental health and my physical health to Yeah, that that that I can do it? Yes. Yeah. I don't know about you when I when I don't get to create what I want. If I don't get the time. I get really impatient. And I just start to get like like, Don't poke the beer like yes. Is The topic of mum guilt I'm not sure if that's a term that you familiar with, or if you use that term in Austria, or Germany I, I Googled it. I had to look for it. I asked my husband because he has a really good English but he was looking like mama wat Yes, I understand it. We don't use this this in German and also not in Hungarian. But yes, this is a very important, a very important topic. Yes. And I have my problems too with it, of course. So it is. Well, I told already, in the first two years, it was not a problem because I didn't work. So it was yes, okay. This is my responsibility. Now I have a child and I decided to have a child, it was a really hard decision to be a mom. But after that, I started to teach a little bit more and bid my first album and compose and recording something all this stuff then I felt and still now often under under a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure. How can I manage this i Okay, I have to prepare for this lesson. Because I have a new student and I have to practice because I have to play something with the student. But my daughter comes to me and say Please, mom, I would like to draw with you. Or we build something with Lego. And it is really hard for me to to keep the balance who I can manage everything on the day. It is it is necessary to do for the household that our family can rums Yeah, yeah. Then what the what is necessary that I can work, I can make my job. And then I would love to make Oh, something with my daughter because I wanted to have her. So it is not about Yes. Okay. I have now child and and outside, you know, for the social life? Yes, she is married and she has a child everything. Okay. You know, I wanted to have a child and then I would like to take also the time to visit her. It's still a big problem. It's still a big problem. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's one of those things, everyone that I speak to, on these podcasts and everyone I speak to in life, it's the same thing. It's the same stories that are how do we balance it? How do we get how do we get it right? And it's just a constant, constant struggle, I think is the best way to describe. I think if you are a woman, your goal was to build a family and to to get children then this is for you to paradise. This is your life and your whole thing and I respect all the woman they they are able to do it. Yeah, this is a huge word. And it's so much energy and always be there for everything. But I think if if you are an artist, artists are usually free souls. So you need I need a lot of time alone for myself in quietness. If nobody speaks, and I can hear the silence, and then I can start to hear inside my own thoughts and ideas, and it takes time, it takes time. And I think then you get this problems and this struggling, because you, you don't want to lose the connection. Also not to yourself, This is you, you are an artist, you have such of ideas. And like a butterfly, you know, oh my gosh, I have this idea. And now and, and. And then you have to push it down and say no, stop. This is not the time for this. But it should have this time time now to do this. And usually you do it also before. And now this is a new situation. And yes, then you have to fight each time with yourself and say no, please. You have to responsibility. And your child needs you. And she she she she needs the time and the love. You have to give it and not just to think ego and me and me and me and my friend. Yes. Belongs to find blondes. This is the biggest thing I think yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you put that very well. Yeah. I hope, very well. Identity is something I like to talk about, too, about how you feel like yourself has changed since you became a mother. Do you have any thoughts on that topic? Yes, yes. It changed really a lot for me. At the time, Camilla was born. And we landed in this intensive care unit with her. And she was just too small and too weak. But she was healthy. And she was fighting she wanted to leave. And you know, it was beautiful and great to see her grow and and be stronger with each day. But we had a lot of doctors and a lot of nurses 24 hours around us, no private life, no private moment. It was necessary to control for Camila, it was really necessary, but it was totally different. So you don't know the situation that you are no, never alone. Never. It's in each moment, a nurse can go in your room and check something with the computer for breathing. Or something like like as. And there were also a lot of other young parents with also with the cremains. And after these two moms, we were able to go home with our hair so little girl and start almost normally live. But not all the parents had this luck. Yeah, and this was something for me personally. It changed the whole thinking about life, about problems, and also about people. So before I had problems oh my gosh, I cannot go make this trip to Vienna before Christmas to shopping. Why? I don't know. Or oh my gosh, I would like to have this makeup product and this is sold out. Yeah. And after that I had to say Hello, this is a problem, it was a problem for you. Hello, wake up, there is a totally different, really real alive with real problems. So stop to yelling and make a small thing like a big elephant. So hello, this life is over, if you had your time, but now it is the time to three to to see the reality and, and think everything over and make a new thinking from everything. And this was the most significant experience for me. And after that it changed everything. Also my connection to people. So I have really not enough free time, I don't know what is free time. If if I have a little bit time, I think in really exactly which person I would like to meet and take my time. So it is it is a good time with good energy. And I'm feeling well after that. And I can take something for me and I can give you something. Do you need me really? Do you are really interested for me? Or it is just you know, usually we do it and okay, we do it again and again. And so this was the identity change in me. And also, after this moment, I realized that after that also the influence in my music. Yes. Yes. That's massive, isn't it? It's like your whole perspective. The way you saw everything just changed completely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. This was really like, clap, you know. Yeah. And you make just a few minutes and you are in a totally new world. And you you can see so much more things and other things our way and you're not even recognized because this is not important anymore. So it was also for me personally, it was a level up. It was a very hard level up. I have to say I had to work a lot with myself to handle it. From that really negative feelings to the passivity. And to check what what I'm winning with this. But but it was it was the most significant experience in the last few years. Yeah, yes. Yes. That's huge, isn't it? Yes. Well, it's funny how things happen, isn't it? Like if Camila had have been born full term gone home? You wouldn't have had that access to that like the neonatal unit you wouldn't have seen that other parents you wouldn't have had that. So you would never have maybe come to that realization that you've come to that changed everything for you. It's funny Yes. I don't think things happen just by accident. Yeah, I believe that too. i I'm sure I'm sure. Sometimes things happens if you are not ready for it but usually thinks happened if you are ready and it's so new that you you can check it wow this is not a new opportunity to make the level up and wow this is something I have to learn something now it happening something you know and a lot of people just ignore and just yelling and say oh my gosh me poor and my daughter My God Dineo natural gas a preemie but but for me I I'd say thanks God, I catch this moment and and I had all So enough energy enough power and enough courage, yeah. To say, Okay, this is a new path and please go you have to go now and don't be afraid you will alive it's it after that story with you and your daughter and his oldest this this experiences you are stronger than ever and you you will get it but if you would like to change something if you would like the true life goes on and not just the stay and stop for long years always on the same place. You have to have the courage to try these things. And I was able I tried it and I did it and I'm really happy about it Yeah, well done. That's wonderful. That's such a great story. Night the time that you keep yourself zintro Did I say that right? Yes, Sidra Sintra. Yeah, he's that. Is that a particular word in another language? Like does that mean something? In Yes, yeah. Yes, yes. cinta Cinta. It's the meaning in old Hungarian Hungarian. The beautiful goes on. This is from the time before the country was filled Hungary. Before there were a lot of more who I can say it in English. Hungarian folks, but each part had the emperor or from that, and the 777 persons. And this is from one of this time this world and I wanted to have a deep connection to my Hungarian roots, because I also have German roots, but the Hungarian is much much stronger. So I could say I'm in 98 or 99 persons I'm feeling Hungarian. And the end of the word Thrive This is from Gare de Sosin cinta and Gerda was mixed together. And I'm I'm Ryan did get on Hungarian. So Sintra. This is also a city in Spain, for example. But I'm writing it in a Hungarian way. And this is the story behind my artist name. Oh, love that. That's very creative. I tried to do my best. Well, my sister, Alfa Allison. Yes. M for my sister, Emma. And John, the Joe. So that is like, Oh, that is no. So it's not like your story is really awesome as it's designed. This is totally cool. sounds it sounds nice. Joe. Joe says it sounds great. I love it. So I didn't want to have to artists name Gerda because this is also the problem it is then Jerrica or chair there or you know you can spell it in different way and it sounds not really like for my years Yeah, no, no please I'm searching for something they've read you are a painter as well I've seen some of your lovely paintings that you've put on your Instagram. So, is that just a hobby? Or do Do you paint and sell your work as this is just a hobby I started to draw when I was four in the kindergarten so it is really early love and I did eat through my whole life till Camila came then I had to stop the and I also visited some of the workshops for aquarelle for example, but you can say on Instagram these are paint by numbers. The picture is yes it is a ready picture and you can paint it with all so this is a new thing for me I never paint it before with oil and this is also just to trying to go back and have connection again and have to be fit again with my hands and my fingers to paint something Yeah. But I I'm drawing by myself this is I could say I have to influence a little bit from Frida Kahlo. Oh yeah, this is this self portray in some way with a message inside you can read it done and you can recognize my face or yes it could be maybe yes this is scared or this is Sintra, I know this picture maybe from from Instagram, you know and I'm working on it now. And in my free time if I have time, I really like to make copy from from pictures so I see it and I try to draw it on the paper and then also usually I make something more in my style I don't like the colors and okay the eyes are too small or something like this. But I have to say I cannot really paint by myself so maybe it is also a story for the future. Yeah, I can really paint with brushes and and with oil but to draw and and then then to use colors with it. I already on and maybe I can connect it with my second album. Sounds for a booklet or for the cover. Yeah, I was already asked from some of the people oh wow, cool. What you are doing? It is it is cool for your next time, you know, okay. I can recognize and maybe think about it. Yes. Yeah, it's lovely. Can you describe the style of music sutra music? I'm making a neo classical instrumental music with a touch of melancholy it is really important for me to say it is a melancholic music. So if, if you ask me and I don't have to name a genre, and I always say I make melancholic music usually I compose it in more and also if I have a nice melody in do I change it in more because this is this is my color, brown, dark red, warm colors deep inside, inside errs, you know, not depressive, or not negative, but always with with with the soft lights, and that you can go inside and, and and I don't make happy funny music. This is really not my style. Once I did I composed music for for dance movies. Yeah, I started 2010. And after that we made with with my husband, under the name art feeders, three short movies, dance movies. And there were some of the scenes so situations for example, at the end that was needed up happily, you know, happy and music. I was also able to write it and it sounds cool. It sounds nice. But it's not the real me the real me it is always take time. Think and and go inside and search this positive darkness and warmth inside you yourself. This is this is my music and instrumental basically because I cannot sing I tried. I learned one year just singing well, yes. I loved it. But my my voice is not cool for chairs. So I have really small and thin a sound. It's nice, but I don't know, to sing all the great tests on the arts you know Ella Fitzgerald or Sarah Warren. Sarah. Yes. is my favorite. Nina Simone, you know, you need also power in your voice and I don't have it. So I stopped to sing. I'm singing just here at home with Camilla something like this. And sometimes if I have to say something I tried to write also lyrics for this in English. Yeah, then I have to have somebody they can correct that and say okay, I I understand what you would like to say but this is sorry. Nobody else will understand you. I hear my husband to say okay, I check it but nobody else will check it but you want to save it this English so and then I try to find a singer. She or he could sing it for me. Yes, yes. This is and I would like to make a meditative music. Yes, this is this is for the future. Yeah, fantastic. Yes, yes lately. Is it important to you to be more than a mother? Yeah, it is, for me personally, really important. Before I decided to be a mom, I had to think really a lot about I really want to have this now, I am sure that I'm ready to stop everything and give up for for, for a few years, my whole artistic life, and I was really afraid that I will lost everything, hmm. And also that, that people around me, reduce me from this, to this biological being, you are now a mother, you have to do this, this and this, and this, and you should not do more. And we don't want more from you. This is now what you have to do. This is your responsibility now, to be a biological being not a person, not a woman, and not an artist. And in the first few months, I felt it, I was on the road with with my baby in the pram, and you know, that people seeing in you just the mother, you will not recognize, like, like a woman. This is this is a mother with a small child. And that was and I was sure that I can hold it for a long time. This is not not a situation for me. What I want and what I like, for me was really important that people are not just saying in me, Ah, nice Barbie doll you know, with big guys and small noses and blondie. But to say okay, this girl has a brain in the head and she can use this brain and Okay, she is more than just like, like a doll we see maybe in her and I worked really hard, a lot and a long time for this. And I was afraid to lose this. And I think it's really important also to show my child and she's a girl, she will a woman should be will be a woman that she can also learn this that you are not just a female, you are a person, you are a human, you can think you can make huge, amazing beautiful things you can build everything that you want, you can be the director from the Mozart day or if you would like or you can go outside and and and work in the industry what you want. And this is really important to show. Yes, of course we have to do the household and this is usually a work for woman and and so on and so on. But also to show outside to other people. Okay, I am a mother but my life is don't go to to the end with this. Hmm so I had my life before and yes, I'm export again and I can take really cool maybe sexy clothes again. Yes, I'm not an old grandma. I'm sorry. I like makeup and I like to dress my hair and take my jewelleries and I'm back Hey, come on. I was just pregnant. I'm back here know. Yes, yes. This is important for me personally. And I have to say that I I had to fight for this. Yeah, for me and also for for the others in my nearness that they can recognize Hey, okay, she's wake up again. Ganga is back again. He's back. You Nah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. That's awesome. That is so good. And you write, like showing showing your daughter, you know, that she's got so many options in the world, you know, the world's changing and she can do you know, compared to her, her grandmother, you know or your grandmother like the things are changing as the generations? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, Austria is in several ways traditional and of thinking, also, in the path from the woman, a lot of women are able to stay at home and be a household and housewife, and stay for a longer time with children at home. But this is not my style, and nobody my family from the woman is like this, we are all strong, loud woman, and we say I want this and I do this now. And the man can say, okay, honey, you know, this is okay, how do we use to, to fight for things we want. And also in my family, I have an older sister, and no brothers, and also my father, my parents. They give me this, this education, you know, I raised up you are democratic, you are a person, you are not the girl, you are one of the family. And you can say what you would like, and please, you have to fight for your things and go for it. And go for it. And if you would like to build a house from from what command I show you here, you can do you can do it. This is the hammer and do it. Not oh my gosh, no, you are a girl go to the kitchen, you know. So this is for me a pretty normal life. That's wonderful. It's interesting. I spoke to a lady yesterday. She's She was born in China. And she's lived in Australia for a long time. And when she was talking about the same kind of thing that her mother was very different to the traditional Chinese mother. Because the Chinese mother has to do everything. Like they basically forget about who they are let go of themselves and they just do everything for everybody. And her mother wasn't like that her mother was was also an artist. So she basically she got her daughter to walk to school. That wasn't the damn thing you used to have to drive your children to school but she's like no, you can do it you're capable you can walk to school and she learned all this from her mom. So now she's like it with her children as well. And she you know, she's got this empowering sort of, you know, coming through the generations which is yeah, the same as you like this. You know, I keep going like this with my hands and how that's come down. You know? It's wonderful, so good. Yes, I mean, I don't have problem with it. If if if this is a family and this is a tradition, and as a woman, you can you can have this comfortable situation that your husband or your families read and you have enough money and you can stay at home. And you can take from everybody and you are happy with this. Then you should do it. Then you should do it. Because since I am a mom too, and I have to do all the things the same things. I know what a huge job this is, from day by day to organize and and to keep running everything that your family can have the normal day and I think it it would be really important that all these woman get paid pro moms for this job. Because you are you are a nurse you are a babysitter you are a cook, you are a cleaning person and you have four or five jobs in one and you don't get paid for this. And usually your work one scene, you know you make you clean the kitchen and after an hour is a bomb inside bang and nobody will say oh thank you mom, you clean the kitchen. So beautiful. Thank you so much you do Wait. It's normal that you do. And it's normal that it's everything in order. And I think it would be also important to show women, we recognize what you are doing all day. And we know if we don't have you, the family of your broken family won't work without a woman and without somebody who has to do who who does all the things. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, you have your children too. And they come and say, Mom, where is my pants? And I don't fight. And you go inside the room and this is everything coated, but you know where in this shelf? Here your beds darlin. And everybody's just studying my daughter's stunning my husband is stunning, huh? The tired your depends. Is there inside your cupboard? Yes, I show I searched it, but I didn't find you know, yeah, these are the small small things. But you have a lot of from the small things during the day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you have to save everything in your mind. And you have to keep in mind this and this and this and this and we have not asked to do and so and also for your partner lot of situations you met men thinking others and and then you have to try to create art too. So I think it's amazing, multitasking magic that we women can do. Yes, we can be proud, I think we can be proud if we get it if we get it. What have you got coming up in the future things that you're working on or the projects or ideas that you've got, where now I think that it's a good time to start with a little bit more gigs. Practicing and you know, after one or two months, we have spring. So newborn and wake up and start again with new fresh energy. I think this is a really good time to try it. And I met an excellent oboe player. And we started to play jazz together. I studied at the University of Mozart to my emphasis was jazz and popular music. And in that time, I played also in the jazz band from the University and we had okay and I really loved it to be free and improvise and and to practice jazz because you have to practice just to a lot of people thinking okay, just play something. This is jazz. No jazz is really complicated and you have to check it and we plan to have duo concert in March on maybe a prayer so this is this is fix and I love it to have a project I can see now and no okay. In that time I will play this. So I'm really excited and happy about this. I'm working on my second album. I have a lot of pieces each with a Vera specialist story. And we have to to make another post production of course audio engineering, mixing and mastering. This is a huge part. It is an important part and I will Like to compose more pieces because I think I have five or six, this is not enough. And I would like to really start with meditative music with my Native American flute. And also maybe write some of the meditative lyrics, I can speak to, to the, our, the, to the, to the audience, in a small circle, not of course, 100 people or 50 people. And I like to make also the music for this of course, so I would like to compose something also in that style. And, and improvise. So this is my plan that I, I, I would like to to make more free things free improvising and, and more connecting with people again, I was so long just inside the room and flat and no connections and no concerts. Also, if you are playing classical concert, it's often really official, you know, you are on the stage and you have this big hole. And after that the hours in sitting really brave and beautiful dressed and nothing is allowed to sit and listen. And after that, please clap your hands. This was never my style. I was often stressed from that. And jazz is the best way this is more relaxed and be cool. And oh my gosh, you had a no it's not exactly the most beautiful nevermind this the moment and this happening at the moment. And people want to have you in your moment. Really? authentical Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yes. Yes. And I think that the that these these forms, these are the shapes from from make new music, meditative music, improvising, jazz. Give me more from this freedom, what I would like to have and what I would like to give to the people. Yes, these are my future plans. Fantastic. Sounds wonderful. Thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate it. It's lovely to meet you. And I was so happy that you make this project. I never ever heard before this and I thought, wow, this is so important. I think a lot of lot of women are outside. They have these problems. They have these issues. And I also say see that in my nearness. Nobody asked me about this. Yeah, nobody asked me about this. Yes. Okay. You are at home now. And yeah, okay. Nobody asked me. Hey, come on. When do you have your next concert? Or what are you doing? Some of the person say, wow, it's great. You got an eyeball during this. This is this is a huge thing that it's cool. But but not so much of feedback from this and not so much interesting. Because a lot of people also are not inside from this. Yeah. Cannot they cannot imagine. Yeah, this is your normal life now. Yeah, yes. People ask us still. Oh, at the weekend we make a big parties somewhere in the countryside in a nice house from 6pm to the next morning. And we would like that you are there and I say this is totally nice. Thank you so much, but I have a small child. So she she goes to bed at 7pm. And I'm sorry. Is not they forget, they forget it, that we are now parents and have a small child. So I think you have to the same or really the same situations. Yeah, also the auditors. Yes, absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Sarah Hens Australian blogger S3 Ep93 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Sarah Hens, Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in NSW Australia, and a mum of 1. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life, Sarah was compelled to record her own experience with preeclampsia , eclampsia and birth trauma . She used wriiting as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget (at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness), but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially Sarah's words were only for herself, and she didn't expect to share it, however as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience she could help others, and particularly share a voice in Australia. She also shares other's through her blog The Pesky Placenta Society. ***Please be aware this episode conains a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, PND, PTSD and a near death medical episode*** Sarah - Website / Instagram / Sarah's pre ecampsia story Podcast - instagram / website Downtown Abbey episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. And welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here for wherever you are around the world. Want to take this opportunity to remind you to subscribe to my weekly email. You'll be the first to hear about the upcoming episodes, who's on next week, and some other little gifts and discounts and other things that I'd like to share. Just head to the webpage Alison newman.net/podcast and you'll scroll down and see the signup sheet. This week. My guest is Sarah hens. Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in Sydney, New South Wales, and she's a mom of one. Sarah has a background as a social worker and has spent many years working in the department for Child Protection. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life Sara was compelled to record her own experiences with preeclampsia, preeclampsia and a tremendous birth trauma. She used her writing as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness, but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially, Sarah's words were only meant for herself. She didn't expect to share it. However, as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience, she could help others and particularly share a voice from Australia. She also now shares other's stories through her blog that pesky placenta society. Please be aware this episode is quite full on. It does contain a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, postnatal depression, PTSD, and a near death medical experience. I really appreciate Sara's openness and honesty in sharing in today's episode. Thanks so much for coming on. Sarah. It's lovely to meet you today. Thanks for having me. That's absolute pleasure. And I I have heard that this is your first podcast so it's exciting to have you all. Oh, don't be nervous. We just pretend it's you and me. We're just having a fun chat. With like literally 1000s of people listening. Not that many maybe. So good. So good fun. So we're about to finish Australia. I am on Derek country in the Blue Mountains in South Wales beautiful Yeah, yes. It's very lovely. I've been from Derek country my whole life so I was on a different different part in the Hawkesbury in the mountains gal. Beautiful I've never been a bit I've seen plenty of photos and yeah you neither is it the three sisters and we've got 45 minutes from there so I'm not going to lower like pretty much the first bit of the ego call Mountain is where it is and then there's lots more mountain often Yeah, right i Oh awesome. Oh lovely. That sounds like a nice place to live. So are you a fairway from Sydney? Where you are then? All the closer Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Do you go into Sydney much you have to go in? Often I was it was weird. So obviously with COVID we're all stuck you know for ages but I went to the opera house for two different shows like three weeks taught and I haven't been there for so long. I went there twice in one month so that was pretty good. I do love a city day because I don't really there I find the city very interesting and like you Yeah, I couldn't imagine living in a city. I mean, I've I mean Adelaide and and if you've ever been to Adelaide, but that's not exactly a proper city. It's like a bit country town. Basically, everyone chases Adelaide because it's yeah, it's easy to drive in. So it's not really a city. Fucking like a map of Sydney. No one knew literally, was the first place that any one job like anything. Yeah, yeah, they weren't, weren't considering the future when they made Sydney. Really were they, too but yeah, that's nice for a visit. I haven't been there for a long time. But yeah, nice for trip. But I would hate to live in a place like that. I just, it's not my thing. I like a bit of space around me. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, so you by trade, a social worker? When did you first get into that sort of thing? Was it something you're always interested in? Being when you're growing up? Not professionally, I think I have been like a little social worker from the beginning. My mom actually said years like after I decided to actually study it. She was like, I knew you were going to be that because I was just always that person that like the kids at school that are having my mom and dad were having issues or, you know, they'd always come and find me and like be crying in the bathroom. So via without me for a long time, but actually going into it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was never one of those people that was like, Yes, I'm going to be a doctor or a teacher. And then I remember when I was looking at different degrees, I thought, Okay, this sounds pretty broad. Like, I feel like I could make this work in lots of different areas. And then as I did my best placement was with in child protection. And I love that, which sounds weird, because it doesn't sound like a sort of job you should love. You know, actually, I can relate to that, because I work on the other side of it in early childhood education. Yeah, I have actually great admiration for what you guys do on the other side, I could definitely not do it myself. So yeah. It's definitely a job that makes or breaks you for sure. Sometimes you're not really sure where it's going. But I did my placement there. Did another placement overseas. And I thought, yeah, this is a job that I want to do. So I was there for nearly six years before I went on that week. Actually resigned my position a couple of months ago, because the circumstances surrounding my birth left me with some more pressure issues that it's no surprise child protection does not help your blood pressure. Stay down. Yes, sort of gave that out recently, which feels still, it doesn't feel real. Like I still can't believe I'm not going back. But yeah, social work can take me anywhere. So I know that I have heaps of options and lots of experience now. So I'm excited to see where I am. Yeah, not good on yeah, like I said, I think what you guys do on that other side, oh, my god, like I, I quit, I was working in a law firm, just before I decided to completely change and go into child childcare and early childhood education because I was finding out things about things happening in my town that I didn't want to know about. Like, I'm, I'm a very sensitive person, and I find it hard not to take on other people's emotions and situations and experiences. So you know, I'd be sitting there typing, affidavits of people who are coming through the court system for, for doing horrible things to children and young people. And I thought I can't I can't keep doing this. And I said to my husband, I need to I need to help the children. Like in my mind, it was like help the children he's like, but you are helping the children and you're putting their perpetrators to court, you're contributing to that process. Like no, but I need to have my hands on the children like I just had this feeling I needed to be able to hold the children and you know, pick up stuff and reports and do that sort of stuff rather than, you know, the real hardcore stuff, which I'm just not cut out for at all. Because I mean, I honestly like I look at people that are in education, and I just think you have the patience of a saint. I'll protect the kids but after them skills, I think knowing where you fit is so important because you know, otherwise you're just forcing a job you hate and then if you think it's really cool perspective to early childhood, like most people just kind of love little kids and love working with them but I think bring a bit of an extra skill to it. Kind of having seen We're helping kids don't? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it really, it really makes your days so much more focused and more productive. Because a lot of people have an idea that childcare and I mean, it kindy at the moment is literally sitting on the floor playing with kids all day. Like, they think it's just some, like fancy way out of doing nothing. And so oh my gosh, like, no, like, people come in and do work experience or the they do their placement and they just go oh, it's not what I thought it was gonna be like, it is really demanding work and physically but also emotionally and mentally. You know, you're focusing on these little people and it's not just, I don't know, it's, it's such a broad scope of what you're looking at, for this child. Like this do the same job as you I'm just hearing the amount of just the admin side of it. Yeah, that's writing individualized notes for each child. And every day I'm gonna be like, favorite anything otherwise apathetic parent ever. Did you have lunch? Great, great. Good. Like I'm, I'm in awe of people that can keep up with that. Like, it's just not what I'm seeing, you know, she makes all her little activities and stuff you're taking and there's so much passion that goes into teaching kids question that I do not have. Very impressed. It's interesting how it all fits together, isn't it? How we will play a little cards and yeah, now good Anya, I really have a lot of admiration for you guys story. I first discovered you on Instagram, with your very awesome named account the pesky placenta society, which is brilliant. Can you tell me how you came up with that day? So it was it was not my first one. I was actually thinking today. I will come with the page like and I looked at some of the graphics I did in the beginning. Ugly. I had. Yeah, I had another name initially. And that was like part of one of my favorite quotes, which I still love. But you know, it wasn't mine. And I think as the space started to grow, and you know, people actually seem to care about what I was. I thought, No, I want to I want to move forward as something that's just me. And from the beginning of my pregnancy, I had the anterior placenta, which is at the front, so I would always call it pecky. Because it meant that I couldn't feel as much movement. I had so many trips to the hospital being like, oh, my gosh, and then the second thing had gone who'd be like, Connie told my Microcenter pesky from from day one. But then I ended up diagnosed with preeclampsia. So it became like, super speed as pesky as it can be. And I think that having a I was worrying people would think I was making light of it, that sometimes I do, like, that's just how I am. And I think it's quite the and it's weird. And that's, that's me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many people out there that not just for vanity reasons, there's so many issues you can have with your placenta. It's just a fun little way of honoring the journey. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's really cool. Because I think, I mean, there's so many people out there, everyone's got a different way of dealing with or processing issues and an account that might be really clinical and crisp and coming at it from a, you know, medical area, whatever, that might not see everybody, you know, like I I sort of have a joke when I talk about my placenta, that it's been pesky as well. It's sort of had a I don't know what the official name is. I've been trying to find it but it basically the blood flow was compromised from about 28 weeks. So then that meant that the baby didn't develop. And basically he stopped growing was dental insufficiency. Placental insufficiency. Yeah. So I sort of make a joke about that myself because my son when he was born, he was four pound 14. But he was completely formed, you know, he had his lungs were formed, everything was developed. He was all there. But he was just really tiny. He had no fat on him. He come out like looking like a skeleton rabbit. Like these tiny things, and you could see his diaphragm like when he was breathing like you could see every little muscle and everything inside him. So when people were still here quite little now. And they'll say, oh, yeah, he's a little little tack here. And I'll just say, oh, yeah, my plus Cena kind of stuff working. You know, I say it is a bit of a joke like. So yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from. I mean, it's good. I think it's good to share in that way do you want to share a little bit more about that experience for you finding out you had that anterior placenta and sort of how things progressed from that point? Yeah, so um, well, I looking back now I had high blood pressure from like the beginning of my pregnancy, because life was quite stressful, and I got pregnant and stayed. So for probably about half the pregnancy to similar things happening in life. So I was pretty frequently stuck in hospital for the blood pressure profiles, or they can be there for like three or four hours and check it. So I was used to that. And preeclampsia is something that like, it was mentioned when I booked in, because they run through the symptoms, just keep an eye out for these. But I didn't, they never really went through what it was what would happen like, anything like that. So I knew it existed, I knew it was serious, I knew I needed to look out for it. And I, on the anxious side of the spectrum. I was constantly worried. I mean, really, pregnancy just amplifies any mental health that you have what in my experience. So I was constantly, you know, panicking, that I was gonna get sick or something. And all that kind of thing. And then when I started to actually get symptoms, you know, I was going, Oh, my gosh, like, am I just making a big deal out of this? Because I'm anxious, or is this really a thing and, you know, every appointment, I've run all this stuff by the obese, and I wasn't seeing the same person consistently, because I was just booked into public hospital. And towards the end of the pregnancy, I stepped on weight really fast, which is another symptom because you start to swell, and you get the edema and all that. But the conversation sort of turned to like trying to make me go to an obesity clinic instead. And this is not the same, like, I know what's healthy and what's not. And I wasn't in like the peak of fitness. When I got pregnant, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that this was different, like it was just so quick. And I had all these other things. Like in all the great times the symptoms, there was only one or I didn't in the end. And so I just didn't feel like I was being taken seriously. And I went to a different hospital, which has been more focused on women's health. And they're the high risk hospital for a huge geographical area. And so I went in and I was diagnosed that day. And I was there for about a week. My blood pressure still is an extreme, like, every doctor I see. They're like, that's not possible. And then my son was born rather than 35 Lakes, I got very sick very quickly and died. And I actually went into the realm of fantasy, which is where you start to see ease. So that happened literally a few minutes after they came and checked me. So the timing was all just perfect. And yeah, so it was all very fast and scary. And and yeah, just crazy. And I think it took me a long time to reassess what had happened. But that sort of then led me to this world of perinatal trauma and the online space has been so helpful, remain silent, not anyone literally in my personal life who's had a similar story. Lots of people like to tell you, they know how you feel when they actually do it. Yeah. And it's always well mannered, but it's not the same. And so, yes, trauma, you own that, but it's not the same. And so I think finding people who could say actually, oh, my gosh, that happened to me. And there's so many intricacies in processing your trauma that I think a lot of people generalize. When you find someone who can be like, No, I had that exact thought like it's just really, it's comforting and it makes you feel like you're not crazy. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like I've been left with lifelong problems like I will be on blood pressure medication till I die. We which is more likely to be from like a heart attack now. And, you know, there's just so many things that preeclampsia makes you vulnerable to forever. So it's, it doesn't end with the birth. I think for some people it does, and that's great. But for me, you know, I'm in that sort of tiny categories, people who just another gonna have normal blood pressure. And that's still something I'm cranky on some days. But it's easily manageable. I think it's just another thing that I have to think about now. And you become a parent, like your brain is just going 100 miles an hour as it is, and then you've got to try and remember your own health, which it doesn't come first anymore. So that's what like, I have to have reminders on my phone, like to take a pill and I've never had to do that before, but it's just how my brain works now. Yeah. That's a real, like, brief summary of it. I mean, I have the whole story typed up for people to read on my website. But yeah, sure. Yeah. That's probably the quickest I can summarize what happened. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, this, the preeclampsia, I was the same like people would mentioned. And so yeah, watch out for this wherever. But it was almost like a passing comment. And it wasn't explained that if this did happen, then this this, this would happen. And we'd have to do this, this and this, like, it was just really general. And I think I knew one girl that had to get induced because she had it. But it was like, I didn't really ever understand what it was. And then when you're saying there about, you basically went from preeclampsia to actual preeclampsia. And then it's the thing that now you're dealing with for the rest of your life. I actually didn't know that. So yeah, I'm pleased that you sharing misinformation, because learning suddenly, your clients your side of things is not, I mean, it's not as common like pregnancy as a five to 8% of all pregnancies. So it's like not a lot, but also a lot of when we think of how many pregnancies there are a very small percentage of that. And I think, on paper, I don't think they would have diagnosed me with that, because it sort of started to happen as they were delivering him. So I think they managed to sort of stop it in time, but I did. So it was like my bottom haul, started seizing change. It was like I was trying to do setups like that I couldn't control it. But that's not like talks about the only thing I knew was there's like an episode of Downton Abbey where one of the characters dies from eclampsia. thing that we're talking about? So like it's really not like preeclampsia in and of itself isn't talked about. But then for the people who have that next step. It classier like it's even more quiet. So I try to be as honest as I can just because people need that, like, I need your help. I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I'm very open book. Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I often say that. It's like, the people that are capable of sharing. It's not like, it's not like yeesh you've obliged to do it, or you have to do it. But it's good. If you can do it for the people that can't share necessarily. So I love that you can do it. And yeah, thank you for doing just on that. Was that. Was that Sybil? Did she have preeclampsia? Yeah, yes. Yeah. So they, I watched the episode. After, I think my son was a few months old. I was watching through it again. And I was like, okay, like, I can do this. But oh my gosh, like the whole I just cried and cried the whole way through. Because I think I have these moments where, like, I just realized, oh, man, I'm gonna cry now. I just realized how close I was like, and that's such a scary thought and watching it, you know, in a big show with all these famous people, like it was just a bit surreal kind of going, Oh, my gosh, that was me. I mean, obviously, in the show, she passes away, and there's a lot of people that do and, and I was so close to that. And so I think the feeling of getting that close, and then coming back is like its whole own category of using being as open as I can about it. Because I know that no matter how stupid I think authority is or how dark it might be, like someone else out there has either had it or is having it right now. And I think that's you gotta have people who can go like, you know, with, you know, crazy, you know, what processing looks like is what trauma does to our brains. Yeah. Trauma is my bread and butter. Like that's what Yeah. And so I know it very intimately on an academic level. I'm personally but then I sort of have these two halves of my brain where, literally, we have two halves. It was sort of like a kid is the emotional side, it's freaking out. And you know, what's happening? I don't know who I am anymore. And then there's the logical brain, my brain like we studied this, we know this. We know what's gonna happen next. Hobbs that we're constantly surprising each other, indicating very well. So he was very strange going through that, like knowing trauma as much as I do. And that's when it's you. All bets are off. Like, it's just totally different when you're the subject of it. So, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot, a lot of sort of niche stuff, I guess that I can relate to the people. And in the context, like the preeclampsia world, and the perinatal Tron world online is so dominated by the US, which is not a bad thing. Like, they have a lot of people. But I think it's really nice when you can find someone that understands your culture, and your geographical context, and our health system is different. And like all that sort of thing. So I think it's been nice to be able to slot into that space. That was kind of empty. And obviously, there are a lot of survivors and stuff that have accounts, but I think that's more about just their, their life and that kind of thing. Whereas I wanted something that was more open to help people have a space to be like, Oh my gosh, this happened to me, and it sucked. So yeah, I always get very excited when I find other creators. Yeah, for sure. We are literally in comparison to the rest of the world. So I think it's nice that this space is growing in a way that is relatable and accessible to everyone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When did you decide that you wanted to share this with others and create this account and get it out there? When was that sort of, in your mind, I started so writing has always not always, but as an adult, I suppose it's been my outlet. And I've never really thought of myself as an autistic person, I think of myself as a creative person. And in my head, they're different things. So I, I was that 2023. So 10 years ago, I was very chronically disliked mystery illness. So I used writing to kind of express that to people because it's really hard to just like sit and talk environment about what's going on. And I found that to be really helpful just for me to get my thoughts out, but also to be able to give them to other people and be like, This is what I'm trying to say. And so from there, you know, I do a few little topical EcoLog stuff over the years about different social justice issues or, or things like that. And then you know, that kind of stopped his life got busier and, and then when my son was born, and I got really sick, I actually started writing it down just to try and remember what happened because neurologically impaired, but also, so called fentanyl, which is a really heavy duty, because they had to start my C section before the anesthetic studying. So he was like, I'm gonna pump you with as much as I can. So I was really out of it for several hours in and out of consciousness in the ICU. And so when I woke up like in the postnatal ward, I was like, I have no idea what just happened. And it's just in flushes coming back to me, I started to just jot those down, knowing that at some stage, I was going to need to write it out properly, and you know, make it sound nice. And then as I did that, like, I didn't have the intention of publicly sharing it. I think I was going to share it like with some close friends and family and just kind of Yeah, there was so much like, particularly the postpartum period as well, like there's so much that I could have verbalized that I could write about. And so I had planned to share it with some and then a few ladies in my life who are midwives and community nurses that I knew who were were very lovely and cared for me very well. After my son was born, and they were like this is get this would help people like if you share this, it would help someone. Yeah, and I just thought you know what, like, on the off chance that there is one person raised there goes and goes, oh my gosh, like, and has that moment that I had reading all the stories? You know, it's what, like, it's worth the vulnerability is that what you say? And experience could help another person start to heal. And I thought, Okay, I'll just do it. And it was lovely. Like literally the day that I started the account, I got a message from someone on the Central Coast in New South Wales. Oh my gosh, like you're the first person in Australia that I've come across who has had a story that's a bit like mine. And I was just so like, it was just the nicest thing to hear obviously, not that they went through that. I know. What I wanted happens, like so fast. And and that's been, it's really been twofold. Like, it's helped me get a lot of stuff out that I needed to, but it's also helped a lot of people start to do that for themselves. And that's just, yeah, it's been really helpful. For me, I think having something to occupy my mind when you're stuck with, you know, a feed or a nap or whatever it is, like having something I can focus on, and still have that best that's beyond just being a mom like that. That's so important to me in a way that I didn't see coming. Like I expected to just be so in love with motherhood, and then it happened. And I was like, this is not what's in the movies. Yeah. So I think having this has been really like, salvation. For me, I think for my mental health, but just having something to do, like, you know, you just feel so the immobile sometimes as a stay at home parent. Having having an outlet to still create and share and stuff has been essential for me. Yeah, and it's led me to some really lovely people. So that's always a bonus as well. Yeah. And on that. I noticed on your, your web, your web page that you share stories from other mums? Yeah. And did that start to happen fairly quickly? Or is that something that you sort of happened as you went along? Meeting people and stuff. I think that wasn't like, an intention that I have, in the beginning, it sort of organically happened, I think. And not just about like people with preeclampsia. Like, there's so many things that I'm passionate about, like, as a social worker, you care about a lot of things. You know, there's not really a topic that I'm not happy to share. But I just started with, like my sister's story, you know, she had pregnancy loss, and then had my nephew on Christmas Eve, and had a really difficult postpartum period. And so he wrote that up. And, you know, the more I sort of started sharing, the more I thought, there's so many things that are just like, what I went through that someone else is sitting there going like, Okay, I didn't have preeclampsia, but I had a miscarriage, it stopped. So I think I like to keep it fairly open. And I know like, all the advice you get with like social media is assigned a nation stick to it. And it was like, there's too many things. Like, I looked at some other accounts that have these beautiful, like, stains with the colors. And you know, that one's spotty. And that one's got flowers. And I just thought pink, so I thought I might as well be like that with my website. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's really cool. Like the amount of people who hoo do contact me and go, like, I want to, I don't know where to start, like, so at first, it was just sharing stuff that people had already written out. But now it's kind of at a, you know, guiding people through that. And that's been a real privilege to, you know, sit with someone, well sit with someone online, and kind of help them say what they want to say in a way that fits who they are, and their experience, and just the excitement and the emotion that they have in their story going out there. And, like, it's just so special when someone comes to me and says, like, I've never shared this before, but I really want to, and that's just beautiful. Like, it's a connection that, you know, I've never had in any other way. Yeah, so it's been great. And there's just so many people in my own life that I think like your stories and people need to hear it. Yeah. So I do not have nagged a few people. But it's great for them. Like I love seeing other people have that moment of like, okay, people hear my story, and I take it seriously. And, you know, my story has value. And yes, yes, storytelling is like the ancient form of communication. And I think we lost that a little bit over time. And so I think, sort of stepping back into that has been more emotional than I expected. And just an honor, like I always just feel so privileged when somebody trusts me with that, like, it's a really big responsibility. So I do take it very seriously. Yeah, that's lovely. I think people can sometimes think that what they've got to say isn't a value because they don't hold a status in society, or because they don't have 100,000 followers or, you know, because whatever reason people can sort of, what's that? That? Yeah, they can, they can really diminish the value of the, of what they've got to say, and it's even people that I've had on this on this podcast over the years, they are I'm not creative, I'm not good enough. I'm not whatever it's like, I can see that you are, you know, I'm not telling you, you know, I'm not going to force people, you know, you have to be on the show. And just give people a bit of time to think about it, like to support them. And then people will come back to me and go, actually, yes, I would like to come on, you know, and that's like, yes. Like, I feel like, I want you to see yourself as we see, you know, like, you have so much to add and even someone the other day, just as are wrapping up the episode that like, I hope that was okay, I feel like I, what I've got to say isn't isn't good enough, or isn't big enough. It's like, seriously, like, I like you sit with someone for an hour or an hour and a half. And you just take, like what they've got to say so valuable. Like I just I want people to feel like empowered that they have a space and they have, they have people that will find value in what they have to say, you know, absolutely, people. We are our own worst critics as women. We're taught to believe that we need to be bigger and better than we are. And so I do it myself all the time. Like, I second guessed everything I look at even stuff like my life story, like Medically speaking, I should be dead. Like I survived something that even my specialists couldn't make sense. So, like I know that to be and still understand. Oh, it's not interesting. You know, we played Dan Brown it was actually your, like, you know, your list of things that you talked about on the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. So when I read through that, and there's the whole section on McGill, and I was just like, I mean, I've been reflecting on that so much, because I think I had this realization of like, obviously, I can relate to mom guilt, but it's just this extension of like, woman guilt that I've had my whole life. And, you know, a Carlin's like yeah, I've been a bit obsessed with that idea, since I read that a few weeks ago, and I just thought, oh my gosh, like, so much mental energy goes into being a woman that, then is exacerbated as a mother because there's all these expectations on you. And no, we really have this like, No, I'm not enough of the stuff that I should be in a hole, but I'm too much of stuff. And we have this contradiction that we just sit in all the time. And yeah, like, just my own experience happened. And I still doubt it. Like, I went through, like, medical evidence that it happened, and I still kind of feel maybe I'm just making a big deal. But like, I shouldn't even deal with it. Because that's what it is. And that's the same of any story. Like anything that's happened to you is important and relatable, and I'm trying so hard not to or to challenge I guess that that little voice that I have of like, got to make sure everything's perfect. Why? Yeah, yeah, Little did you know that your email like unleashed this whole war. I'm so pleased. And my work here is done. Exactly. Then I read the rest of your list as I got to my mind. It really did make me think about like, how I where I placed my value as a mom and just as a person. And how much subtle stuff there is out there telling us what we need to be like I'm well and truly good enough for my son and I know that but I still you know, I don't know how many times a day I convinced myself that's not true. Particularly because like my postpartum, I did not like my baby for a solid two months of his life. And that still makes me feel horrible to say out loud. But it's true like I was so like wrecked from everything that happened and separated from him, you know, I didn't get to meet him for 24 hours. But even then my brain just doesn't when other people have to wait more than that, like some people have to wait a week. You trying to justify Yeah, I still didn't meet my babies for 24 hours. And so I think that really affected the way that I make sense of it is that it affected my ability to bond to him, because even though I didn't meet him, like I met him the next day or the next night, and then I was still in the ICU a day or so. And then I was on a different word to him because he was in special care. And like I say, session was so fast that I could barely walk like it was yeah, you know, I find out how long other sections went for. And I think Oh, my God, mine was not that long, like, so it was very rough. And like, physically, I was quite damaged. I mean, nothing was wrong, but it was just super and yeah, so it was, it was a full week, like until we went home. And then, you know, I had this tiny human, and I just look at him and be like, I don't want to feel these things for you. And I don't. And so that was like a whole journey. And I think that really affected how I could view myself as a mom, because in my head, I was like, what sort of doesn't like me, like, what sort of mom doesn't want to spend time with her baby, you know, because we get told this beautiful view of motherhood, which it can be like, I have those feelings now of just joy. And you know, I look at him and I want to eat him. And but when you don't have that, from day one, I think the world sort of wants you to believe that there's something wrong with you. And there was something wrong with me that was completely out of my control. And I needed a lot of help. But that didn't make me a bad mom, you know, I met his needs, and that sort of thing. So I think going into motherhood that way, it really, really made that voice very loud. That told me that I wasn't enough of this. I was too much of that my son doesn't. Like all that kind of thing was so loud for the first little while of his life. And thankfully, you know, therapy and medication has made that voice much more quiet. But it's still there. And I think that's what sucks thing a woman like that voice is always in the back of your head kind of telling you that it's your fault, or you need to do this and you need to Yeah, you haven't done good enough or you haven't done the right thing. Yeah. I think women have the role. We are given the role of making sure everything's great. We get no credit for that. And then if something goes wrong, we get blamed for that. Yes, it's like an impossible task. Isn't it? Like, you're set up to fail right from the start? Yes. Yeah. I even tried to do an experiment last week. I was like, You know what, because I can't be the only one that's done this. I bumped into like a chair, my ankle, like get the chair like and I apologize. Yeah. What? I just apologize for pieces. Like that's how brainwashed I've been to believe that. Everything is my fault just for existing. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna do an experiment in the next 24 hours. I'm going to count how many times I apologize. Not so like stuff because I've actually done wrong, but just as apologies that we make, like, as an instinct. I couldn't keep up not because there was heaps, I just, it's so natural in my brain to be like, I'm so sorry I exist, that I couldn't count them. And I thought that's so sad. Like, it's so sad. My husband doesn't have that problem ever. Like, I've never seen him apologize to a chair. I've seen any man apologize to a chair. So I think like there's so much work for me to do, but it's exhausting that I have to do. And then like trying to do all of this at the same time as being a mom like, oh, yeah, we have a lot on our shoulders and no one you can't see it. It's there. And yeah, I just think the more honest we can be about motherhood the good guy, but I don't think we just need to focus So on the yucky parts, but everyone has yucky parts. And if we pretend that we don't we just, we do such a disservice to each other as women, and as moms by convincing ourselves that we need to be perfect. And, you know, so I am so grateful to have found, I think, a community of people who are all trying to be really honest about the crap, because we're all gonna have it, you know, we'll all have the great times too. But I think we need each other, to be really honest about how hard it can be to transition into parenthood, and then to stay there like, yeah, yeah. And then all those stages that come through, you know, like, it's brought up, and then they change. And it's like, yeah, you're just constantly learning from scratch. And so I think, yeah, I think stay at home parents are like the backbone of society. Podcast, honestly, that that is another group of people I have so much respect for, because I couldn't do it, I literally couldn't do it, I think I have a certain amount of minutes in my day that I can be completely focused on my children. And then I've got to go do something else. Because it's like, my brain just doesn't have the capacity for that. I need that outlet, I need something for me. But I feel like the patriarchy and that system that's been set up, it encourages us to compete against each other, you know, it's pits us against each other, she's doing this, or I can do this, blah, blah, and what you're saying, I totally 100% agree with, like, sharing what's real, sharing the challenges and saying, It's okay, we all have crap times, you know, like, I'm, I'm getting so good. Now, it just, you know, laughing about the fact that my kids can't find their shoes in the morning. Like, it's just, you know, it's we never, ever really sprays morning, and that's what life is. And then also, you know, being kind to myself and going, you're not going to You can't expect this, like TV or Hollywood version of life. You know, I found that really tricky. with mine, having both my boys by never had a spontaneous, like going into labor. So I never got that moment of oh, my waters broken down the street or, you know, like, the on the on the telly. And never, I never had a normal, normal. I'll put that in air quotes, because that's such thing as normal, but a straightforward birth without complications. I've had one that was born in an hour and a half, and one that was born by emergency C section. And you have these images in your mind of what's going to happen when the baby's born, they put it on you, and this happens, and you go home and everything's, it's like, it's bullshit. It's just setting you up for trouble and failure in your mind. Because that's not life. It's not real. So the more we can tell each other, that what is happening to us is normal, and his life and things are gonna go wrong. And things aren't always gonna go the way we expect. And the better, we'll all be, I think, absolutely. You have your dream book. And this is something that actually my therapist, that's me, I think, you know, first session, I was very lucky that I was able to get into see a perinatal trauma therapist who actually knows what she's talking about. And she said, You know, I see a lot of women like me that have bursts that are just horrendous, but I also see a lot of women who have the birth that they wanted, and still were left feeling traumatized by something. And so like, you know, I believe that women can birth and they can do it safely, and they can do it freely. But I also believe there are a lot of us that even if all goes to plan, we're still gonna walk away traumatized, and that's okay. And yeah, I just thought, oh my gosh, you think about like, like, just the baby blues, the hormones and my when my sister was about to have the baby, I said to her, I was like, isn't gonna make sense now. But it will was like those first two weeks, you're going to feel like the world is ending and that it never going to change. But it will like it just will when you hit that sort of two week mark, and you're home and settle down, like, the fog will pass and be able to see everything again. So remember that first time, she was like, What am I done? I don't know what I'm doing, like, everything's wrong, and it's never gonna get better. I was like, I told you this was gonna happen. I was like, it's predictable. And sure enough, within a fortnight, she's like, Oh, this isn't so that. Things like that, where we try and we make this sort of beautiful newborn bottle that. I mean, some people have gone yeah, but a lot of us don't like I feel like more people struggle than not. And, you know, we shouldn't be honest about that. Because otherwise we make parents who just feel like they're broken from day one. Yeah, yeah, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, it sucks because it's like there's something inherent about you that's wrong. And that's had like fighting that and challenging that is It's a lot of mental work and needs to go daily to keep alive. Like, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all encompassing. Yes, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. When you said before about not having that sort of the connection with your son a little bit of time, I wanted to say something about that, but I'm not sure how to word it. And I don't want to keep talking about myself, because this isn't my show. But what it is, but you know what I mean, it's not my special episode. So I'm conscious of that. So I might, but I'm sort of trying to lead into it with it. I had an experience where I was because of this the second child emergency C section, I was so and I might be a little bit selfish, but I was thinking, I have to heal, right, my body has been cut open, how many other layers you go through, it's the most invasive surgery you can have. You know, and then I'm not allowed to lift things. I'm not allowed to drive. So I can't you know, I'm physically bound to my home. I couldn't really walk that well. Like, I was still recovering from that. And I thought, No, I'm expected to take care of this baby. And I thought this is bullshit. You know, how is this right? And I was quite, I guess, resentful. Probably the right word. So I found it difficult to sort of be all in, in this happy bubble land of baby because it was like, hang on a second. What about me? Yeah, you know, and then I thought, I can't say that, because it's all about the baby. You know what I mean? Did you? Yeah, I think because my therapist asked me outright, she was like, Do you blame your son for what happened? Like, do you because I was talking about this, like, I don't feel anything like, I know that I'm supposed to be all mushy and love him more than anything. And I don't feel it. And she was like to blame him for getting sick and nearly dying. And I could honestly say, No, what I did blame him for was taking all of that time. And I couldn't focus on healing myself, like that. I felt like every time, you know, I'd need to do something. And not just like, medical appointments, because I don't want to have appointments. So appointment to do for the first two weeks of his life. So obviously, I had to go to those. But every time I wanted to pay, he'd start crying. And I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even go to the toilet without failing you as a parent. And so I did, I have a lot of resent, I think towards him. Not, I don't know, because that sounds like a strong word. But that's what it was. You know, I just I looked at him. And I'd be like, because of you I can't be okay. That's just that was my reality at the time. And thankfully, you know, I have a husband who loves being a dad, and, you know, spent the first week being really the sole parent. And he took that on and has just run with it, you know, from day one, and not everybody has that. So I'm very blessed in that way. I had a mom who was at my house every day, you know, to do all the chores, like, you know, I have my little village that and I still was like that I need to be me again. That was like, I think after you have any kind of traumatic birth, figuring out who you are, is hard. Because you can't go back to what you were not who you want to be yet. You're just this like in between person that you don't recognize. And then you have this little squealing child that you know needs. They're relentless, relentless, and they should be exposed today. But when you're in that space of trying to just like survive, it's sort of the last thing that you need. And so I did, I felt really like a lot of that struggle to attach to him was because he was the barrier at the same time and overcoming that is difficult. And I had lots of support, and I still struggled. So there are a lot of people out there and it may be gave me so much respect for the families that I've worked with in the past. I was like, you know, the fact that like, your kid is five and like, I'm only hearing you that now it's like this is not so stressed that I was under with every possible support I could want. Yeah, it really made me realize who was in my corner. So that was a good thing, but I definitely you know, I'd look at this perfect little face and I'd be like yeah, and that just felt like I felt like a monster. I felt like some awful like, troll that had crawled out from under the bridge and like hated the baby. But like that Here's how I felt, I felt like I was on my own. I felt like, I'd made this huge mistake and brought this child into the world that I didn't want. And that, you know, I really felt like I never would like I'd look at, you know, moms loving their kids. And I'd be like, how do you do? Like, I don't have that, and I want that. And I did get there. But, you know, two months is a long time really, when you think about how much I had to do to get to that point. So it's just yeah, I think it feels like it goes against our nature as women to say out loud, like, I do not like my baby. And that is that we have to stay in, because people feel that way. Like, and that's what I mean, like, you can care for a child and meet all their needs and still not have that joy. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. One day might not be swimming, but it happens slowly. And thankfully, I got there in time. I needed to have that space to heal. Like, I don't think I think I'd still be struggling if I didn't have the ability to prioritize like it was a bit of a weird silver lining of a traumatic birth was that I could leave him with people. And know he was okay. You know, I know so many moms that who have that beautiful oxytocin rush at birth, who they'd be thinking about their baby nonstop and your brains. Our brains are supposed to be wired that way. Right? And so and I just be like, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a good point, actually. Now you say it, I feel felt the same way. But I hadn't really put my finger on it. Cuz he, he, as soon as you know, he was born, he was whisked off to the little box thing they put him in to keep them warm. And he was also given formula. And that was like a weight off of my shoulders. Because not all on me anymore. I am like, the biggest formula fan. In the world, I literally had no choice because my milk never came in. But I was so desperate diversity, and again, fell to the mother because I couldn't. But formula meant that I could recover. But I could leave who was my husband and I could have four nights of sleep. Like, it just gave us something that I don't think we could have had. I addressed it. And honestly, if I have another one, I don't think I even want to try breastfeeding because I was traumatized by the process of it not working. But I actually reflecting not that long ago, and I this is one of those things, I'd totally forgotten that. That sort of really emphasized my, where I was sitting in terms of like, not having a lot of emotion for my baby. I took him for a six week noodles. And my sister was with me and you know, the nurse was like, giving me all this prep on like, you're gonna be really distressed because he's gonna cry and it's gonna upset you. And I said, No, I'll be fine. She was like, No, really, like, everyone says that and then they burst into tears. So just be ready. And in my head, I was like, I don't care. Like, I don't care if he cried. And then he did. He started crying. And she looked at me and she was like, patting my arm. She's like, he's okay. And I literally looked her in the eye and I won't be sad, worse. And she just raised her eyebrows and I can see what's happening. My sister's sitting there with tears pouring down and she's like, just sitting there so indifferent. I completely forgot that happened. And my sister the other day, she was like, Yeah, you would not okay. Yeah, yeah. That's how I felt like I listened to him cry, and I felt nothing. And like, I was just what happened? I can't change it. And, you know, it didn't mean that I didn't care about him or like, I think I was. I did a lot of distancing, I think because I was just expecting to die like at any moment, I was not real panic of you know, it's not over yet. Because preeclampsia you can develop up to six weeks after you have a baby. So yeah, so you can have postpartum preeclampsia or help syndrome or pregnancy, which are like the sort of more severe versions. And so I knew that I was still in that time frame like I so I think I spent a long time trying not to get to know him because I thought if something happens to me like it's going to be harder for you. You to them not have a mom, like, you know, here's this big you didn't know what was happening. But that's how I was rationalizing. And so it was hard like trying to survive and care for a baby and still be yourself and find things that make you happy. And you just get bombarded with all of these things. I just need to rest, restaurants appearances is difficult. But I'm glad that I prioritized it because I think it gave me strength to then try and make the other things more positive or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, again, back to like, being a woman, resting is nowhere else. So even though I just been sliced open to my very core and back together really quickly, and you know, all that stuff. I was still like, no, like, I don't deserve rest. But, you know, that's just what I needed. So I think my body eventually just gave out and would just go to sleep, like at a moment's notice. You know, yes, my son had to wait, sometimes it meant that I could do it. And now, you know, I lost him. And I have all of those feelings that I wanted. And you know, that stuff came in time. It's hard, when the only stories that you're seeing and hearing are people that, you know, have that moment where they're on their chest, and they kiss the partner, and they have this beautiful golden hour. And, you know, and that's all you see, it's very hard to see your own experience as worth anything or real or, like, you just kind of look with envy, or these videos. Like, I still feel weird. I still feel weird seeing videos of, you know, moms that have their babies immediately placed on them, or like, I just instantly still feel jealous. You know, obviously, I would not wish my experience on anyone. But I, you know, I wanted that for me. And I didn't get it. And that was its own grief, like processing the loss of experience that I felt good about was a huge part of coming to terms. Yeah, yeah. What happens when your baby? Let's see, isn't it? And the thing that annoys me is like, people say, Arpit, women have been having babies for 1000s of years, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, but hang on a sec. So many things would have gone wrong over those 1000s of years. And I wanted to ask, and I don't know if this might be an insensitive question. So you can tell me to bugger off if you want to. But did you ever say that you sort of had any sort of feelings about when you talked before about being so close to death and surviving? Did you ever think like, imagine if I was, you know, in a third world country, or imagine if I was stuck at home, or you know how things would have gone 100% Particularly because preeclampsia I mean, the fatality statistics, the vast majority, like are in developing countries, because they don't have prenatal care and all that sort of thing. But even like, if I had done what my OB told me to do, I will be dead. If I had just gone home and relaxed and you know, not thought about it, and like, there's no way like I would have had a seizure at home, my blood pressure went insane. And then I would have died at home. Like it absolutely would have happened. So yes, that was on my mind, a lot like the timing of it was, was just, I see it as a miracle as someone who has faith, but like I said, when you have preeclampsia in hospital, they check your blood pressure, at least hourly. So it's very frequent. And mine was very unpredictable. So the medication wasn't really working. And so they were checking me super frequently. In the space of half an hour I went from like not concerning to our version of the code blue, which is called a map call. And that's where everyone runs in and they do all your tests. And, you know, within 15 minutes of that I started seizing 20 minutes later, my son was born and I was off to the ICU. So like the speed at which all of that happened. And like the fact that I was in hospital like I'm so proud of myself while listening to my gut instinct being like, Hey, I know you see the paranoid with your health, but let's go get checked in anyway. I yeah, I just thought and I still think so often of women who don't survive because they don't have access to what they need. To whether that's a medical professional or medication or whatever, like I think I was in the absolute best place I could have been when that happened. And even then it was a close call. So I marveled at the timing of everything and I just, my heart breaks every time I read a story about a mum, either a mum who dies or a baby like this preeclampsia can very quickly lead to placental abruption, which is very difficult for a little one to survive. And just a number of stories that I've read that sounds similar to mine, but they end with somebody passing away is heartbreaking. And, you know, regardless of what country you're in, but particularly for vulnerable women, you know, whether that's your racial background, or geographically where you live, like, there's just so much that factors into what kind of care you get. And like, I can't fault the kid that I had, like it was absolutely spot on and save my life. But yeah, the amount of people that don't have that is just so upsetting. And preeclampsia is just such a weird, like, no one knows why it happens. Like, it's still this big mystery that affects so many people, and particularly, you know, in developing countries, or even in some rural areas where you're really far away from your health care, I just think, oh my gosh, like if I even I was thinking about, like, I brought my mat lay forward because of my blood pressure. And I was like, I could have still been at work. Like, I could have still been, obviously, it was a Saturday. So, you know, wouldn't have been at work. But like that could have happened on a weekday, like the first day that I got really, really sick, was a Wednesday at lunchtime. And so I just couldn't stop thinking about like, the what ifs? What if person? Yeah, most anxiety people are, but I think I have to dwell on them a little bit. Like I have to give them some space to play out. Otherwise, they just played my mind. So you work through them? Yeah. There's so many aspects of my son's birth that I was like, Oh, my gosh, what is that? What is that? And thankfully, none of them came to pass. But yeah, it's very surreal, I think to look at what could have happened very easily what could have happened? And I'm reminded of that, because every time they see a doctor, they want to know, like, what happened to my blood pressure? And they looked at me like, I don't think you're right. Like, I don't think that's possible. And yet, yes, yes, it's possible because here I stand. So like, I get this reminder at every appointment, I thought there's no way you could have survived that. I think, I know, that's not like, as a yay, but it doesn't make me feel better. I hope to that in my lifetime, we see an answer to how to prevent it. Like, because that's what's scary about everything. Nervous gutters, and you can still get it. How do you? How do you? How do you fight that? I'm very passionate about and research and all that kind of thing now, on a witness just because, you know, I had everything I needed to know what it was. And it still took me by surprise. So the amount of people that you know, if they have a dodgy healthcare provider, or you know, there's so many things that could lead to you not not taking any notice, or just pregnancy being uncomfortable. Like there's so many symptoms of preeclampsia that you could just go oh, well, you know, I'm pregnant. So yeah, what I'm supposed to feel like shit. And like, sometimes. But I think like, yeah, it's just it's so important for women to trust themselves. Yes, yeah. We know that we know when we got feel good. And I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world, or at least in the developed world, will have a experience of trying to share something with particularly a male provider and being told like, no, that's not possible or like to go for a walk in assumption, or something like that when we're talking about a life threatening illness. That people can I walk away feeling dismissed. And then like within a week, I nearly died. That's a big deal. And the reason I didn't was because I went, you know what stuff you I'm gonna go and get it anyway. And 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had that, like, I wouldn't have had the confidence to trust myself. So, because we are taught to believe that what we think is less than why because of it, because we tell ourselves that we're just making a big deal out of nothing, but yet someone else knows better. So we couldn't possibly be right. To be like our own hype girl, like I'm getting, that's my goal is to try and be like, yes. I don't care if you can get stupid. Yeah, look this off. There was a post. I don't know how long ago I saw it on Instagram. It was basically people sharing their stories of times when, and this was in, in labor, particularly when they weren't listened to. And the amount of stories it was just appalling. And some of the outcomes were quite serious. And I mean, I didn't have it, I had a little a little moment like that, where by my like I said before, my son was born an hour and a half. And the he was my first delivery. And the doctor sort of joked I'll see you in 10 to 14 hours, you know, he went off to do a cesarean or something. And I literally felt within about half an hour that I felt like, I needed to push like, I felt like this, like I needed to do a poll. Basically, I described it as though there was a bowling ball coming out of my bottom. That's how it felt. And I said to the nurse, I feel like I've got a push. And she just looked at me with a shock on her face. And she she just she freaked out. And she went and got him. And he come in and he just went surely not like this. And I just thought you fucker. Anyway, he did an internal and he could feel the baby's head. I was like, Why don't you listen to us? We know what's going on in our bodies, like, Damn, you all makes us so cross. Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary for a doctor to believe that you're not feeling good. Like, literally your job. Guess to deal with sick people. So if I'm sitting here, whether that's I'm ready to push, or whether that's like, Hey, Doc, I've had a headache and dizziness for like two years, and I don't know what's wrong. Like, it's actually your job to listen to me and to believe me. And you know what my husband's never walked away from an appointment being made to feel like he doesn't know what's wrong. He just, he's always, I love him dearly. He's always like, just shocked when he hears these stories of like, this actually happened. Like I had an appointment once I went in, because I have it's a form of tinnitus, that like you can hear your heartbeat really loudly and it was getting me up at night, like I couldn't sleep. So it was really bad. And you know, because I don't trust doctors. Sometimes I Googled it. And I was like, Okay, this could be a brain tumor. So I should probably go check. I went into this doctor, I explained it. And he told me that I probably just need to drink more water. Oh, and then looked at my file and saw that I have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And so she talked to me about that. And I said, I know like, I'm not managing that, like with my other doctor. I'm just here because I want to check that this isn't serious. And he proceeded to lecture me on my fertility for about 15 minutes, we really should start thinking about like trying to have a baby soon at this point. I was not with my husband, I was not in a place where I wanted to have a baby, or anything like that. And I was like, I just hear about my ear. Like, I'm here to talk to you about a noise in my ear. And you're trying to talk to me about my ovaries like this actually isn't any of your business, right? You're overstepping your boundaries. So much like energy has to challenge that in the moment. Like I think, again, experience I hear so often, including my own as women, as you sit in this appointment, just completely astounded at what you're hearing that the first time you try and challenge it, they shut it down. And it's like, you know what, whatever, like, do you speech? I'll go home. I'll Google it some more figured out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we shouldn't have to resort to Google, we should be able to go to any doctor and say, Hey, these are my symptoms returned. What could it be? Yeah. And I think I look I've had these experiences with female healthcare providers to I think it's not just men but I immediately have like, my like antennas go up if I have to see a male doctor because I just my first ever experience that I was talking about at the start of this 10 years ago, I got Lyme disease when I was in America. Yeah, we don't have that here quote, unquote. So there's no testing for it. There's no anything so I was sick with this for nearly two years. But at the start of it, you know, I had all these symptoms. I went to a GP that I Just could get into. So I was 18 at the time, or sorry, just 19. So a baby, a baby with no backbone. And so I sat down and you know, they asked you if there's a possibility can be pregnant, which is fine, because they have to. And I said, No. And he came back to it. And he was happy. You sure? And I said, Yo, I've never been sexually active. So I'm pretty confident. And he literally he raised his eyebrows and said to me, I find that hard to believe. Ah, what do you say to that? Like, I dare anyone to say that to me now, like, with the amount of no crap given that I have now, you know, I hate him. But back then, like our baby, 19 year old with no self esteem. I just, I was like, What the heck. And that was my first experience of like, that feeling of going, okay, so you just think I'm crazy. Like you respect me at all. So I think like, it's it happens. It's real. And then, you know, fast forward to when I was pregnant. And I was being told that I needed to go to an obesity clinic at 33 weeks pregnant. And I was told, like, she told me I needed to lose weight. Like, these babies got another like kilo or two to go, like, in what way? Can I lose weight? She's like, What very least you can't gain any weight. I was like, Okay, again, my baby still got to like, chop out. Like, she was crazy. And what I mean, she was crazy. But it was just, it was mental. I was like, crying. So I was like, This is not like, you know, I had self esteem issues my way in anyway. I was like, Why? Why are we talking about this? You know, and then the next appointment, I was told all of these symptoms, just don't worry about it, you just need to relax more like enjoy your maternity leave. Can you just look at my flashing. That happened a week, I was gonna ask that actually, if any of these people you've come across again and be like, actually, I almost died. So get started, I haven't because I went, I switched hospitals. So I had like shared care with the high risk hospital. And that's where I ended up going because they had just completely redone. Like their birthing suites and everything and they have, it's really good. It's basically an emergency department, but for pregnant people. So I went there, because I was like, uh, you guys know, that I am trying to. And when I say trying to I mean, it's on my list and never at the top of my list, because maybe the Social Work team at the hospital, I burst that, like, open for feedback. So caliber long after your birth. And so I plan to have a meeting with them and just kind of go through. Because it's all in the same local health district. I can kind of point out like, Hey, can we have a look at like, who I saw at this thing, because they need to know that when I sat there, and I told them, that I had a headache, and that my vision was blurry. My right shoulder was hurting. And, you know, I was swelling up so much that like, I could push my finger in and it would just leave a dent like it was disgusting. And like all of that I was just told to relax and not to worry about it. And when you look at a list of symptoms of preeclampsia are all there like? So it's a matter of actual education? Like, I mean, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wanted to just be like, like, I nearly died, that. I also want them to do that. Like I wants to know that the next person they see that runs through everything that's happening. They don't just dismiss it and go, Oh, well, you know, you're pregnant, you're likely to be uncomfortable, you know? Yes, you're likely to be uncomfortable, but not to this extent. That's it. Yeah. So I do like, I'm quite passionate about health care providers, not just knowing more, because they know the symptoms. They know them, but seeing it and hearing it and actually taking it seriously. Yeah. Because you don't want to be the doctor that told someone they were fine. And not to worry about it. And then they die. And that's on you. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like your job is there to catch this stuff. And to help prevent it and manage it. And if you can't do that, then maybe find another job. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I really saw and just the way that they were treated like I had one midwife, she was lovely. She had probably in the late 40s. And she was the first one to catch my blood pressure during the weird thing where it like split and went into opposite directions. And so she went and grabbed like one of the old days and here's a young, a young guy. He was so dismissive to her work when she was telling him what had happened. And he was like, No, that's not possible. And then he checked my blood pressure and I did the same thing. And then he went on like announced it to everyone because it was So interesting. Like, like, he'd found it. Cool. And I just like, looked at her and I was like, what just happened? And she just sort of rolled her eyes and she's like, Oh, young doctors, like they're all the same. And I was like, I know that like, still, you know, I'm watching this guy who looked younger than me, right? A woman with 20 plus years new recruit experience, or, you know, a new thing that he hadn't seen. And I was like, no, like, like, the midwives are the ones that I was crying on, and that were helping me like, try and walk after three days in an ICU. They were the ones helping, because my C section was so fast that by the time I got back to postnatal, they, they didn't even have time to wake me up, like I was still covered, like, in my blood is disgusting. And so like, you know, I was grossed out by that. But obviously, midwives they've seen everything so gentle and calm and and like, the doctors would come in for 30 seconds every day and be like, yeah, right, by, you know, but the midwives, they were the ones that like I hadn't read, like, who the one who respected them that call. She came and visited me three days after, like, interface, Natal, or just check in and I was like, That's so nice. Like, I know that I could go and find the doctor and he wouldn't have a clue who I was he wouldn't days ago. So I think there's yeah, there's at every level, women are really disadvantaged and made to believe that we don't know what we're talking about. We actually make the world go round. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, she could not have said it better. I feel like sometimes, like if we just went on strike, what would happen to the world? You know, if we just went up not doing it anymore, you guys sorted out countries have successfully passed some pretty significant legislation because women go on a sex strike. story seriously, it's like radicals will ever read. And it's in countries that would surprise you to like, this is not happening in the developed world. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm getting that sounds awesome. Power. Yes. When men don't get what they want, it's a bit how much you have. But it's not taken seriously when we're actually trying to like use it. You know, beneficial things. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's thing you can sometimes you can feel like so amazing and wonderful. Like we birth we bring the next generation to the world we raise them and then somebody's like, just take the piss out of you at the petrol station because you don't know how to put the hubcap on or you know, it's just something like that, like, and then you're like, This is where I've made in the world. If I say something, and then a man copies exactly what I say and then everyone is good idea. And I used to just be silent and now I literally go Oh, I wish someone else had said the first like I always have to point it out now because I just get so nabbed. Yes. You can't let it go. Like Yeah. Yeah. A lot of like, a lot of guys that I know and love, don't even realize they do it. Like that's how subtle it is. Yep. And I was, how's this for a proud wife a moment. So my husband, we were having dinner because I caught myself Nan's gleaning today halfway through the sentence, and I immediately apologize. A little feminist izany put on him. You have no idea how much has changed. It's been so good. Like, it's been really a loved one. And I'm happy to learn about privilege. Like I think it's, it's only a good thing. And there's actually if you've not read it, I feel like you'd like it. There's a book called, say what you made me do by Jeff Hill, and it's about domestic abuse. But her chapter on patriarchy is just phenomenal. Like, if you could isolate that chapter on its own, it is the best break down and she's an Aussie. So it's using all these statistics, which I really like. But I think just writing in such a way that like my husband, and was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. This is how much the patriarchy hurts me. And yeah, like that sort of thing. So it's definitely it's a resource that I recommend to everyone when I talk about this, which is Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really good. I think it's really powerful is if a guy can read something about patriarchy and not feel offended by it. It's written well, yeah, like he's not being attacked and it's kind of feel like his place is being threatened. I guess. Thank you so much for spending so much time with me today. I've loved chatting with you and going over some some big topics and breaking some stuff down was my favorite thing to do. I love it. Thank you for bearing with me. And thank you so much for sharing. So honestly, I really appreciate it and I know that the listeners will appreciate hearing from you. So thanks again. It's been wonderful. My pleasure and all the best and yeah, keep I'll keep my eye out on your Instagram and laugh along with you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Wolf new album EP by Alison Newman Alison Newman, hailing from Mount Gambier, South Australia, is a singer and songwriter creating deeply personal music. Her journey in music has been a dynamic one, marked by a diverse range of opportunities, from small vocal ensembles to large choirs and duos, all of which have contributed to her growth and the evolution of her unique musicality. Alison's musical journey has been punctuated by significant milestones. In 2019, 2020, and 2021, she was nominated for the South Australian Music Awards Folk Artist Peoples Choice Award. She clinched the South Australian State Final of Listen Up Music's 'The Songwriting Prize' in 2021 with her original song 'Pieces of My Pain', which was performed live in Sydney in January 2022 for the national prize. Alison's musical journey began in childhood when she started singing and continued to do so throughout her life. She attributes her eclectic music taste to exposure to various music genres from her family. Her earliest formal singing lessons focused on correct diaphragmatic breathing techniques, and she often performed for her family with her sister Emma during her childhood. Noteworthy is her debut album, "Heart Songs," which was released in late July 2019. Following that, she has released three standalone singles; "Sunshine Sundays" in November 2019, "It's Not Christmas Without You" in December 2019, and "For the Rest of My Life" on Valentine's Day 2020. During the COVID-19 lockdown of 2020, Alison shared her love of creating covers in her project "Circa Aurora," where she covered well-known songs in her unique style. Looking ahead, Alison is currently immersed in creating her next album, an EP titled 'Wolf '. This project, set to be released in June 2024, delves into her personal experience with postnatal depression, promising a deeply introspective and emotive musical journey. “The Wolf plays the role of the PND, and I am akin to Little Red Riding Hood.” Three tracks from "Wolf" have been critically acclaimed; Things Are About To Get Dark won the Australian Songwriters Association. 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category. Pieces of My Pain won the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize and recently Free Me was featured in the Top 100 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize 2024. Alison is also a podcaster, producing The Art of Being A Mum, a weekly podcast where Alison enjoys honest and lively chats with artists + creators about the joys + issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum + continue to create. Themes like the mental juggle, identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", cultural norms, how they give themselves time to create within the role of mothering + the value that society gives the artistic mother. You can find out more here Things Are About To Get Dark Re told from the moment I experience my first PND symptoms, it is a forboding moment of realisation, it is going to happen all over again. This track won the Australian Songwriters Association 2021 Exceptional Merit Award in the Rock/Indie Category "What a song! It stops you in your tracks!" Nigel Loveday Radio Eastern Melbourne THINGS ARE ABOUT TO GET DARK 00:00 / 03:33 Free Me My cry, in vain, to the Wolf to let me go, to free me, to free my soul and leave me. And I am left to wonder just how did this happen again, and realising that no one is in full control of themselves. FREE ME 00:00 / 03:08 Pieces of My Pain I am feeling cautiously ready to get my life back together, I am starting to feel well and I am literally picking up the pieces and beginning the steps recovering my life. Winner of the 2021 South Australian State Final of the Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize PIECES OF MY PAIN 00:00 / 03:30 Ready for Up I am ready to celebrate the coming out of the fog, I am feeling more like myself, adjusting to life as a new mum. "This music has helped people." Bronte Ellard - 5gtrFm READY FOR UP 00:00 / 02:58 Feel into You The final track, a song to celebrate the people that helped me through Top 100 in the 2024 Listen Up Music Songwriters Prize FEEL INTO YOU 00:00 / 04:01 "I feel like Alison is one of those artists that give pieces of herself in each song that she releases." RAG MAG radio interviews 18 June ABC Sth East 00:00 / 30:15 30 June 5gtr FM 00:00 / 15:08 1 July 88.3 Southern FM 00:00 / 10:32 9 July Bayside FM 00:00 / 25:46 10 September 5gtr FM 00:00 / 12:13 8 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:52 29 October 5gtr FM 00:00 / 16:10 media The Border Watch - 28/6/24 Limestone Coast Community News - 31/7/24 The Border Watch - 2/8/24 The Alternative Gig Guide - 14/8/24 Media Net - 30/8/24 RAG MAG - 27/10/24 podcasts The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 395 - 23/6/24 The Adelaide Show podcast - ep 405 - 8/11/24 Enquiries to Elena Di Fiore - Maestro Media PR/Publicist contactus@maestromedia.com.au +61 420 221 773 Photos by Renae Lowe Photography Cover designs by Alison

Shanelle Franklin Australian MC, podcaster and producer S1 Ep23 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Shanelle Franklin is a presenter, producer, podcaster, voice over artist, MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and a mum of 2. Shanelle has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade with brands such as Channel 9, SAFM, Fresh 927, Foxtel, Music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on Fresh 927 where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. She has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room, and she produced, directed and presented her own tv show Jam LIVE which aired on Chanel 9 Adelaide and 9NOW. She has conducted the Red Carpet Interviews and Emceed the South Australian Music Awards, along with many other MC gigs. Currently Shanelle writes and presents a podcast called Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare with Tamara Linke, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants. As they discuss topics like incontinence, mumneisia and toddler tantrums, all in a fun and judgment free environment. Connect with Shanelle on her instagram - https://www.instagram.com/shanellefranklin_/?hl=en Listen to Motherhood: A Beautiful Nightmare Find out more about Catherine House Adelaide Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Chanel Franklin. Chanel is a presenter, producer podcaster voice over artist MC and writer who is based in Adelaide, South Australia, and is a mum of two Chanel has worked in radio, television and the music industry for over a decade, with brands such as Channel Nine SCFM, fresh 97 foxtail, music SA and the BBC. She began her career in community radio on fresh nine to seven where she presented in the drive and breakfast time slots. It was here that she was able to develop her craft within the media industry. Chanel has worked in television, presenting a national music TV show on Foxtel called Music Room. And she produced directed and presented her own TV show jam Live, which aired on Channel Nine, Adelaide, and nine now. She now has conducted the red carpet interviews and emceed for the South Australian music awards, along with many other emcee gigs. Currently Chanel writes and presents a podcast called motherhood a beautiful nightmare, with Tamara link, the podcast for the mother who is flying by the seat of her pants as they discuss topics like incontinence, Mum, nasia, and toddler tantrums all in a fun and judgment free environment. So I came first came across you through the South Australian music awards, doing your hosting and the red carpet interviews and interviews with the winners. So you've done presenting producing voiceover work emceeing podcasting that you first got your start in community radio, which I thought was really cool, because community radio, I don't think gets enough credit. No, it doesn't. Yeah, so tell me how that sort of started and, and what made you It's again, one of those things really were community radio and the same with 3d. It gives you this my my start was fresh 97. But 3d is exactly the same radio Adelaide as well. Where you have the opportunity to learn on the job, you make mistakes, you learn from them, that's, that's the key thing. So I used to be an event coordinator before that, and events are great, but they just they they age you before your time, you have the unbelief. You look like you've been dragged through a bush backwards when you finish one of them. As much as I love it, I'm not it's not it's not in, it's not in my soul. And I think until you acknowledge something that's in your soul, and truly what your inner being is telling you that this is your purpose, you'll be met with constant things of trying to guide you in that direction. So the event coordinating was definitely not for me, but it certainly is for so many people that are excellent at it. So I remember having this moment and saying to my husband, I'm miserable. And he said quit. We will just live simply. And we did and I think sometimes the more money you've got the the more you spend I know it's very difficult to just quit your job and whatever. But we ended up living quite simply. And not lavish too in order to still keep our heads above water. We weren't going to get ahead because we were spending some of our savings but savings at what cost you know you need to be happy. Yeah, absolutely threw myself into fresh I gave it my my all and I then decided, Well if no one's going to do it for me. I've got to do it myself. So I ended up grabbing the audio breaks off of the off of the track system that got there and put a reel together and sent it to the highest person in radio Eric who happened to live in Adelaide at the time. His name's Craig Bruce. But he was like the boss of Kyle and Jackie O at the time when they're on today FM. But he loves Adelaide, and this is his home. So I thought, What's What am I going to lose? He's not going to reply. I'll give it a go. And email you can kind of hide behind you a week. Yeah, absolutely. So it was easy to kind of do it that way rather than face to face. And he wrote back and said, you sound great. Come in for a chat. So I did that. And I got on air two weeks later. And now I get up plenty of times. I remember the studio door flying over from one of the content assistants saying what was that air brake and I'm like, I was trying to put a call to air and I press the wrong button and I fired that sweeper off and I didn't really oh my god, like it was just it was stressful. And I was like, Okay, I've just got to give this a go. And then I had an opportunity to move to Hobart to be their afternoons announcer. And I was I really love Adelaide. I don't want to move at this point where I'm thinking about having children soon. Maybe I am not going to do it. So I said to them, I won't go and that was like well if you don't take this opportunity, someone else is going to take it up. So they literally said we've got no more work here in Adelaide. And there was some on my bum is what I felt like and it was a low points I thought I've worked so hard to get here and now it just stopped maybe I should have taken it but I had to consider dance job as well. So it was a tricky time. And then I got picked up by a woman that was producing a music TV show called Music Room. It was airing on Foxtel all around the country. It was low budget, but again a great experience. And she said I'm looking for a female presenter. I thought Great. Okay, audition for that got it with another guy. He was the CO presenter and we did three seasons learn an incredible amount. We filmed it here in Adelaide. And it was a music show that was just for rock and heavy artists. And I know where she was coming from she was trying to create a show because the rock and heavy artist didn't weren't getting enough air time maybe on Triple J or things like that. But then I'm thinking we'll need this the folk Carter's and neither is this and neither is that yeah, there's a lot of genres that miss out so that that for me, I was like something's missing here. So after that, I got a job opportunity to run rip it up magazine. But it was at the time where they just folded the magazine and made it online. So upset a lot of people so I'm like great I'm going to be the scapegoat for everyone being devastated when I wanted the print to stay as well but it was a question of money and who was funding it really. So they so they did that and I thought as much as I love music it's that's not what I want to do. That's not my passion or really want to do the presenting side of it. So I thought okay stuff so I'm going to have a baby this is my quick way out of out of river. And that was that was in my mind. So I was lucky enough to get pregnant quickly with summer I had summer. And then I thought what do I really want to do? Because they just made me redundant when I literally was like I have to go back there. I want to go back so I love music but it's not really what I'm passionate it was that inner being going it's not for you. It's not for you, but I'm kind of ignoring it because it was a safe job and money. I remember sitting on the couch breastfeeding and I got the phone call and they said we're making you redundant we're shutting the whole thing down. And I went right okay, that's a good thing. Maybe it is alright Clean Slate What do I want to do? Maybe I can write a TV show who who bloody nose I literally just decided that I was going to back myself which is hard to do. Because the little person on your shoulder one side Jiminy Cricket as a supporter and then this person here is a pain in the ass who says well you're not a producer you can't do this you didn't you haven't gone to film school you you know, all this self doubt. Yeah. Which can be incredibly damaging anyway because often we listen to the negative stuff more And we talk to ourselves I believe far more than what we actually speak out, huh? Yeah. You know, and and I thought, I'm just gonna do it. Okay. So I wrote wrote a show up. And it was going to be a music TV show that was inclusive of all artists. It was celebrating artists that were traveling through South Australia and playing live music venues. So it's hearing them, but also hearing a local artist every single week. From a variety of different genres. I made sure there was heavy in there, there was folk there was pot, there was soul, punk, electro electronics, I wanted to cover as much as I could. So I presented it to the to Channel Nine Adelaide, and they picked it up, but to say they picked it up, that was a year of back and forth and back and forth. And I literally I felt like I was almost due for a nervous breakdown because I signed up these sponsors to invest in this show. And because you need to pay creatives to work on it, I was 100% going to be that person that was paying people for their work, the film guy, the editor, graphic design, work, all that sort of stuff. And then from there, it literally I had sponsors it invested I had a letter from nine saying we're going to air it but they also could have gone the minute they seen it. Now we're not liable for anything. They said he puts up to our standard we'll air it. So people invested in the show. I spent that money and paid the creatives then sat in the wings and went please add this because if you just put this in the bin, I'm up ship creek without a paddle, but it was just the most terrifyingly living on the edge but so much so that of course so much anxiety. During this old time, I decided it was a wonderful idea to get pregnant with my son what plan Oh, I've got no idea. Shit. Wow. So you've got the you got the 18 month old some are running around little girl, SAS pot, and then so much morning sickness and literally crawling around on the floor trying to appease this programmer at Channel Nine and pretend everything's rosy and you know what? Pregnancy I can do this I like the phone I'm like, oh, like really good. Oh, it was this facade and that I was putting the mask on the whole time. And Lisa Bishop from the external manager from music essays said to me because they jumped on board and they were supportive and she said it's alright you know I've got kids too it's it's hard loving and unloved is really hard like Why have I done a TV show when I'm pregnant and got a baby and I just Oh my god and she wasn't a child carry that so you know you you go to the point where I remember I was on the phone to a Sony record label getting approval to have an artist on and I'd left it for a second because she was carrying on so I thought I'll just go down the hallway to have this cool conversation on the phone with the Sony rep. Having a great time I've walked past she got into the friggin manuka honey. And I took one look and I went I can't do anything about that because I've got this into something cool last yes given her yay. Three jobs she's ever no not my kids got the honey all over the floorboards and they're all floorboards so there's cracks in them on like that's going to be ants for about 100 years Yeah. Oh my gosh. These moments where I've gone oh my gosh, just that's too much. And so we finally we finally got it on so that was that was great. Yeah. And I literally when it was on TV I was hanging my head because our in some of the TV Go Mommy There you are. Like, yeah, let me but I'm hanging on a thread because I was 37 weeks pregnant. And it got on and it was received really well. And it was it was great. And I then was it was due to watch the last episode air on TV and I went into labor Oh well he was only was 37 minute labor so that was trying to get out of me no time for anything except survival is what I was feeling at the time. Yeah, it was just so anyway had him he came out not breathing. So then there's that moment of when we're nothing else matters but but life because it was just a bit quick for him. And then suddenly I had this moment and every TV went down in the hospital. And I thought, well, that's a bit ironic because I think the universe is telling me to just stop and be in this moment with my child. And don't worry about the TV because it was going to end no matter what don't do an Instagram post don't do a Facebook post, just leave it and be with your child who who that was that moment I would never forget because he finally started breathing. You know, so thankful and and then that moment of realization and my husband took a photo of me and it's the most raw photo I've got, I've got no makeup. I'm not an absolute mess. And he's just putting put on my chest and got feta cheese all over his face. And I just held him in like cried and I was like, Oh my gosh, that was just all the tears of everything. Yeah, that I was trying to be the best version of myself and honor my career so to speak and be your mum to summer and be a new mum to Ali and live in this moment and then, a week after the show, after after, I'd had Ali boobs out of control milk everywhere, not sleeping. Great. You know, as women do your bleeding a lot after you've had a baby. And the Channel Nine people say all the one guy said can you have a meeting? I mean, like Sure, sure. Sure. Well, I'll just make it happen. So suck got set summer up with a endless snacks in the back car seat. Dan was still off from work. He pulled into a loading zone, Ollie feed him one one boob was bigger than the other committed to one move. You and he was reflexes so constantly through that threw up so put him in the in the car seat. Dan was idling in the car because you know, they're like the hum of the car. Just you know, release all those emissions anyway, thanks. And then I walked in, and I sat there and had this meeting with this big rig at Channel Nine. And they said we're not going to renew it for a second season. You did great. We did awesome. But music TV is just not where we're going. People were viewing music TV very differently. It's all very online. They don't sit and watch TV like they did count. And this was a very different show to count down. It wasn't on a set it was we were in the venue's filming. And it was it was great. But he was like people aren't watching live TV like that anymore. And I actually in the one season got the same amount of viewers that the loop got on channel 10. So which had a crapload more money behind it. So I was really stoked with that. And one and the second to last week, we actually I beat the football ratings. Oh, we can't get that Kenya. I was sorry. I was like, right. So they put me on at 430 on a Saturday afternoon, which is a tricky time. And you only get the ratings of people that are physically sat there at that point. You don't get the people that catch up. And let's be honest, most of us catch up on TV. Most of us don't just sit where the TV tells us that something's on we work around what we're doing. So that was a kind of a moment. I remember walking out one big big and the other side was lopsided. And thinking to myself, Okay, this is just the different I don't know what's happening and I remember feeling excited for the future. But then two weeks later felt really low. You know, where the where you've had no sleep, and you just exhausted and I thought and now I appreciate the time I had to just be still but as a creative. It's a really restless feeling. We don't I don't think we do very well when we're told to stop. If we stop ourselves, it's fine. But if we're told to stop, and we're halted and press pause, and we can't do our art form, it feels really Yeah, it's not it's not nice feelings. It's you get filled with anxieties, frustration, quit your question, everything question everything is what have I done enough that should have taken that phone call or should have done this should have done that to push yourself more. So I did a stood still for a while. And I then a year later wrote a podcast, because podcasts. In America 80% of people listen to podcasts. But in Australia, it's about 35 to 40%. But the rate here is growing faster than it did in America. So Aussies are really getting this trajectory, because I think podcasts are the medium where it gives the listener respect, because they've actually chosen to tune into unlike radio, again, like commercial TV where it just feeds out you when you've got the car on or you're told to listen to a song or you're told, here's an ad break, or the weather break, the podcast is completely the business choice, whatever they decide to listen to, whether it's crime, whether it's your podcast, whether it's something to make them laugh, it's an active thing. And it is almost a bit of therapy, because they're escaping whatever, they're escaping for a bit and having some downtime, whatever it is, so it is so they're really powerful. When you get into them, and they can be addictive, because you go What else can I listen to and learn? It's great. Yeah. So So yeah, so that was I wrote a podcast idea. And I wrote it with a friend of mine, who is a football star. And she got picked up to do the mix Breakfast Show, and could no longer do the podcast with me. So I wrote this idea. And then it went down the Pope. I remember having a chat with her. And she's like, I'm so sorry. And when it's your friend you like don't make you you chase what's happening for you, you go like back to 100%. And I truly still mean that to this day, I was just sad for myself, that I fell on my bum again. And I remember handing the children a packet of tiny TEDx whether it was the dinner time or not, I didn't care I handed the major packet of tiny Teddy's and just said just watch the Sun TV for a minute. And I went in the pantry and had the ugliest cry. Loud real, like God again. And the end, my face was all fat and bloody puffed. And it was just I it was the release that again, I needed. But I then had this moment where I just needed to fall apart, not in front of them because they'll come over and go What's wrong mommy and white, you're iron and you crying more? starve yourself. And then you look at them. And they're so cute sat there in their Teddy's watching boy, then you cry again. Yes, you have another second wave coming. So you're in the shower, and you do that again, whatever. And then you finally get this thing where you've completely dehydrated. And you pick yourself up. And I literally was in the shower. I love a good thinking session in the shower. And I thought what podcasts do I really want to write, I want to write something that is and I always thought I would never do a career to do with my kids or motherhood. Always thought I'd be different to that. And somehow it's led me to that. So I wrote this podcast that I wanted to share a bit for the mother who's or the dad but mostly the mums flying by the seat of their pants. And for someone that just needs to listen to it and go you know what? I'm going through the same stuff. And it's hard but together we're stronger because that village doesn't exist anymore. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah, it really doesn't and so many feel so isolated and almost don't realize how isolated we are. Until we hear something that someone else does that's the same and we go yes my kid does that to drives me crazy or or the incessant shouting in them with a drill sergeant in the morning to get ready for school we you know, we all kind of do it or issues with the pelvic floor where we worry about doing lloween and knickers or something. All these? Yeah, yeah. So we are actually more alike than we think we are. So I wrote this podcast and I pitched it to a girl that I started off working at fresh with she was volunteering to but when she got picked up by Nova that was when I got picked up by sa femme and then we both didn't work for them anymore. I'm and I said to her, Do you want to start for coffee? And it's one of these things that I am so glad I did we sometimes second guests should I should or not? Should I ask that person for coffee? Should I make that call? Should I send that text or email? Yes. For again? Yes. Because what have you got to lose? Yeah, absolutely say no. Well, okay, it seems a bit but you the worst is the regret or not knowing that's when you feel your crappiest. And it might not be now it's often later that it rears its ugly head. So I just sent her a text and said, Do you want to go for a coffee? And she went, Hey, lady haven't seen you know, just as short. I sent my shout let me you know, halfway. So we did that. And we I pitched it to her. And she went, Ah, yeah, sounds good. I've actually got my studio. She's a voiceover artist. So she's got a little studio that she's, she's made about her husband's warehouse. And it was perfect, because you don't need to pay for studio space. So we threw ourselves into that. And then it all kind of started falling together. Apple did a feature on us early on. And then we teamed up with Katherine house and raised just over $5,000 for their helping a system, we created this chemical to help a sister out. Because again, we wanted to be this kind of help. When you went out one of our fellow sisters needs us we stand up whether whether we're a mother or not, you know, it might be if you're in a position of power to help in a position of power means do have a house and a job, or you know, something like that. So we're all most of us and the majority of us are in that position of power, who might not have a lot we might have been loaded, but we can spare 10 bucks. So we can give up one coffee. Yeah, to donate. So that was the behind that. So we did well there and then it started to creep creep up a bit. And then Apple did a big feature on us only last week. So I remember checking the dashboard of our listeners and it shot up and I went a week prior they needed so they sent us an email, sent us an email and said, Can you submit your artwork a different way? And I've just done it in Canva because it was an easy option. And they said oh, we need it in Photoshop. Fine. I'm gone. Again. I'm not a graphic designer. So I run an old friend and said, I need your help. Please. Can you help me if I send you the elements? Can you just put it in? He said sure. That's fine. He's a muse. Oh, yeah. And he's a bit he's a brilliant graphic designer. He said, Sure, send it over, it's fine. So they sent it back and then they featured us and then since then, we've started to do well with it. But the idea is just to give mums that point to have a laugh and a break and see that their journey is much the same as the rest of us. Yeah, it's almost like it's like a validation that you're not alone. You're like I mean some of these there's the episode titles I've just got to read them out because they're so good. It's a bunch of don't wait your pants which is hair I can relate to that one my you know my amnesia when you're the baby sucks your brain out and you can't think of anything ever yeah x let's talk let's talk six which is good and chic man which I really like this shit well yeah, it's like it is where you're honest it's yeah, it's it's we do get that title of being you know I remember being so caught up with it a few things and work related or pressures you put on yourself that's probably more what it is. And then someone was just not listening. Far out kids like listen, listen to us. Not listening. Actively not listening. I've had their hearing has both been checked. They exceptional here is hearing me banging on about nothing. And I lost my lost my shit. And then you feel so I was like, wow, and then ship on ship on ship on ship. And that's what you do because you go I didn't mean to but actually was your fault that I know, you don't tell them that you just You're so wound up sometimes it is like a rubber band that just goes snap when you're in that moment. Since doing the TV show music, they got me on board to do their red carpet and backstage interviews, which I loved because it was chatting to all the artists and the winners and people coming in. And that was all good fun. But since doing that one of the people that one is nameless for Hansa, and he won the Best International collaboration award last year. And someone asked him, Do you know anyone that can see? And this was at just the last few seminars and he said, Oh, yeah, Chanel, Chanel can MC had an MC the thing in my life, but and I again, there's that short shot of doing that. Figure it out later. Then I had this meeting. And it was to be the it was at the convention center to be an MC for it was the Iftar dinner, which is a Muslim Ramadan thing. So how am I going to say these words, but anyway, I practice, practice, practice, did the MC gig and I felt that I came alive in myself. I was like, I love doing this. This is great. Like I really I just I felt validated, I felt like because always, I loved music so much, but I couldn't seem couldn't play an instrument. And I always thought the presenting side was my connection to it. But now the emcee work to I felt that that was where I could bring something that is inside me rather than something that isn't like playing an instrument or whatever I will sit there and have a vino and just play all the different tunes and just love it so I'll do it on my own don't even need anyone there. So I've got such a passion for it, but I can't bring a skill set to it. Apart from the the art of the communicating and the chatting. Yeah, so once that finished I then got brought on by Flinders uni to do their bands, the MC and book their artists COVID came with everything. Thank you COVID And I was I was cursing COVID for them because it was it was squashing me I was like I've just got this opportunity. And now it's going down the beam going in the bin. And then from there a few other big events like there was a big cheer competition and a few other big things that were coming out of the entertainment center. They needed an MC a school mom put me forward she goes I think Chanel does stuff like that done at once. But who worked it out later. Yeah, I put myself forward for that. It went really well. And then I started then Live Nation contacted music essay and said we need someone to do our ones to watch launch. Who can you recommend? They put me forward. And then suddenly, it all started just the universe seem to be working in my favor for what it seemed like for once. And I said to a girlfriend of mine who did a Reiki session on me because Reiki is fantastic. And she said, Have you ever I said I'm just sick of my career being stopped start stop, start, stop start. And she said think of it as stepping stones. Not stop start one lily pad to the next rather than hold stop progression. And I think when I started thinking of it like that, I actually changed my mindset and felt a million times better. And then music essay said we can't fly over the Triple J presented Can you do it? Sure. Yeah. And then that was that and then I had I just I felt like I was living my true self being out there and I truly loved being a part of the being next to the artists that were winning being amongst the finalists, hearing the cheese being amongst the performers, the Aboriginal opening ceremony like the smoking ceremony. Yeah, that just makes you come alive. I felt really connected to it and truly grateful. So that's that's been me. That's been my my journey of motherhood career a juggle. Yeah, and I've learned as I've failed, pretty much that's been the sense of it. Day Yeah, yeah, there is hearing hearing you express all of that. There's so many common themes about, you know, you can, you can feel that little bit of the self doubt. But you've got to do it anyway. Because you're so you're very open. Like you say to the universe, which is awesome, because I'm the same and a lot of our listeners are so that is so cool. Then you mentioned the Reiki, it's like, you're willing to let go of it and say, right, Oh, am I meant to be doing this? What am I meant to be doing and allow yourself to be guided in that way? There's absolutely no hesitation in that. And that's when you know, I think when you're living the true version of yourself, when your inner being and your physical self match up, it is pure harmony. And it is it is felt you really do feel it. I read a quote in a book once that said, I lied to myself, but my heart never believes me. Yeah, so hard for me. It's basically you can tell yourself, I need to be in this lawyer job, or I need to be working for a good ship boss, but he does pay me well, or whatever, you know, to do all this sort of stuff. But really, you know, you actually know and whether or not you're going, you know, but what I really want to do doesn't bring a lot of money. Find a way to turn that into a business because my husband what he does for work, he loves his golf is obsessed with his golf, and he's obsessed with Liverpool Football Club and Port Adelaide and all that sort of stuff. That's his thing. That's his passion. Some people have a passion and have a job. And they're happy to swap the hats when needed to be and then he's got his dad hat, husband hat friend hat. That makes him happy. Because his dream was to be a professional soccer player. He's 41. So he's an bus with a busted knee. So he's like, Okay, well, I can still do the other things and live and enjoy that. When I've got my job. Me I need to my job needs to fill my soul. I'm a Pisces, I feel things real deep. And I need it to, to I can't just I don't want to switch those hats. I want them to to be in as one. But one thing I did find really important was that I had an outlet away from my kids away from my husband away from my work. Yep. Which is my presenting MC work. I needed something completely different. And I found kickboxing. So it's bloody great. Anyway. Great time. So I go there twice a week. And this is a pressure report. And so so the kids come home from school. Yep, I'm like, right, throw him in a shower, and or a bath, use your shower, because a bath means that the it's reminiscent of a raining rainforest in there after they've left. It's like a slip and slide for me. I got to tell them often I slip. Oh, good driving up. So I put them in a shower quickly. Because the those nights I need them to be doing what they're told. And then I get them dinner. And then when dad comes home, all he has to do is do readers with summer read only a book and put them to bed and have a little play. So then I'm not at the minute he's coming home shoving it all on him. And then it's he's like, I'm struggling with this. So I feel like I've ticked those boxes. Now I can do it. This is what we do. We try and get it all organized. And then I'd go there for one hour, no phone. No, I'm uncontactable for one hour of that day, and I just do my thing. And it feels good to just give it a feel that I come home and I'm in that even though they're in bed some of some time still shouting, using every excuse under the sun is why she doesn't need to go to school tomorrow. Half anyway. Oh my god. She's a teacher. And then there's money. I I love you. I love you too. Please go to sleep. So I've come in, but I'm in the best mood because I've had that release. Yeah, that's somebody who's been really powerful because if works been frustrating or tricky, and the kids you know, be it's been, it's been a day, let's just say that's my way of just forgetting about everything and having a reset whether someone chooses to meditate. Another I read in a book recently about meditating and you can literally set your phone for 10 minutes, set the alarm for 10 minutes, put it on flight mode, and just be at peace and know that you're not going to over you're not going to go into this deep state where you are going to not forget to pick up your kids from school or sorry gonna forget to pick them up. You can just have 10 minutes to yourself and that's powerful too. We need that reset away from the whole thing. Oh yeah. That Is this something that every mother that I speak to on this is exactly the same thing. And that's thing, it doesn't have to be some great big thing. It doesn't have to be that you go out, you know, for hours and do some crappy thing. It's the hour at the kickboxing or the 10 Minute Meditation, as long as it's something I think is consistent. And that you can say, Yes, I'm going to do this, it's important enough to you. And yeah, like, make, make it so it's easy for the people that you're leaving at home, you know, like what you've done, you've you've got it all prepared. And then you're like, right, I don't have to worry about anything, because I know that everything's sorted. So it's Yeah, I think it's just so important is just that the most important thing really, is because I'm a better mother and a better wife. And then absolutely say, and I think when you live with a creative when you're not, I mean, everyone's creative in their own way. But when they don't do it for a living, when they've got more of a job, that kind of makes sense, or maybe a little bit more serious in like, let's say a banking field or a law field, as opposed to being a musician or another type of creative credits can be up and down a lot. And it doesn't mean that they're manic depressant or anything like that. And some of them are, and that's absolutely fine. But that doesn't mean you need to label them. It's just it's just, they're in their head a lot. And they have moments of feeling wonderful about things. And then sometimes they're just feeling like they're plateauing a bit. And I think that that can be tricky, too. So doing that kickboxing for me, is the best way that I go and reset, you know, you could be getting, you could have got an email that just wasn't wasn't the email you're hoping to get. And then you wear that on your shoulders all day real heavy. And then the kids are at you, for whatever reason the dog has put on the lawn and you've stepped in it all the just it does. It's got it's one of these things, it's never usually one thing, usually piles of things that we don't realize are accumulating until someone puts that last little bit and then it all goes bowl. And then we wonder why we're feeling so exhausted, tired, overwhelmed. It's the stuff we didn't realize was piling up before. Yeah. Yeah, then if you can, if you can knock down that pile, just like you know, by doing these things for yourself, just not allowing it to just keep keep going and going going. Exactly. That's really good advice, yeah Absolutely. Because mental health is something that I mean, I've got my own background with mental health and a lot of people I speak to have, but I feel like it's still not something that we're really great. I mean, we're good at talking about it. But the people listening to us perhaps aren't that great at listening and accepting and going oh, yeah, that's actually normal. Yeah, it's I'm finding in this in this podcast that people are being so honest, it's actually that same thing of like, people realizing with with your podcasts with the mums, we all have these things that go crazy. And we all have the same experiences and we've mental health to it's like it's actually normal. It's actually part of life. Yeah, you know, and we throw kids in the mix too. There's a whole lot of different levels of hormones and things going on that again, it's that hat moment where you're like I don't have a minute to cry and then a banks up for the next time. So you're wondering why you crying harder the second time because it wasn't the right moment for the kids needed. You're at that point. So you kind of just pushed it to the back of your mind, but I think mental health Is, is such an umbrella term. And I think every mother at some point, several times will go through their spurts of it, whether it be good, especially because you're still trying to live that version of yourself, be there for everybody else, it is really tricky. And a lot of mine was down to my work being frustrated me and just giving me what I what I did see was roadblocks. But now I kind of look at it as a stepping stones while I was trying to be a mother. So I'm having these moments of self doubt constantly, until I finally started to put the pieces of the puzzle still coming together. And when I had that Reiki session, my friend pulled a card for me and said, keep the faith. And literally weeks later was when that second MC gig came. Yeah. And then I started getting all started getting really great feedback, which was incredibly humbling, but also nice for me to feel that what path I thought I was on is right. And I am I in a different spot to what I was, when I did the TV show, yes, but so much happier, like doing the podcasts. And during my MC work. I am so much happier than what I was on on SFM. And during the TV show. Something still wasn't right. But I felt I needed to learn. I learned so much. And I'm so grateful for those experiences. But I feel like my career's evolved, and I'm happier for it. Because where it looks now is not where I thought it would look back then. But I'm ungrateful because it was obviously the universe's plan to say, we needed to stop that season of jam live, but only one to give you one for the experience. And then you're moving on to the next journey of what that's going to be. Yeah, at that moment in time. I felt really low and really bloody sad. And I'm like, is it the breastfeeding? Is it the fact that my son has reflux? And I can't put him down? Is it the fact I've got an 18 month old who's very attached to me, mommy, mommy, mommy, or what? I didn't know why I was crying, I was just crying. But then you get to the point where you know, you give yourself more credit than probably what we've been given in the past or that we give ourselves. You take a look into the things that you have done. And you give yourself that validation that you deserve. Because there's no better thing to do than to back yourself. That's the thing everyone else validating. Yes, yes. You've got to back first. Yeah. And that's the thing to you. It's sort of reminding me of when you said right at the beginning, how you, you were doing your announcing on the radio, and you thought I'm gonna make up this little show reel of all my little grabs of stuff and just go for it, you know, like, no one's gonna mean, it will I say no one, but some people this happens, but no one's literally going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, I want you to come and do this. Like, you actually have to be our way to go. Yeah, I was waiting for it that whole time for someone to tap me on the shoulder and say, Chanel, we're gonna plunk you here, or do this, and it didn't happen. And I that's when I was like, well, the again the age old saying that if you want something done, do it yourself. And that if you have an opportunity, you need to you need to just you need to do it if it's innate in you and your inner being is telling you this is what your purpose is. Get up, send that email, do that thing that you need to do to start that progression and Rome was not built in a day. So it won't happen overnight. You will get roadblocks but if it was easy, everyone would do it. One more saying which is my absolute favorite Oprah when you know when when you know better you do better. That's that sense of me now being so much more proud of what I've achieved as a sense of where I was on the radio and on telly going. I still didn't feel as grand as I thought it would feel I'm here now I'm doing it. I'm on SFM I'm on channel nine. This is great. And I'm like I'm still I didn't know whether I didn't have a chance to enjoy it because I was pregnant. Or I don't know or I was trying On a high debt with baggy tops who does that? Just wear your belly wet be proud of that. But I felt shamed a bit because I thought I'm not cool being pregnant on telly at a music festival. I should be home singing Kumbaya with nice tunes that were you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, place I felt really out of place until someone like Lisa Bishop who's a mum herself from from music essay said it's okay. Chanel, you can celebrate what you're doing. Show show your bumper off. And I reckon I hid my pregnancy for a good six months. And I shouldn't have Yeah, you can play play doh. Yeah. Yeah, so I shouldn't have, I really should have allowed myself to celebrate that. Yeah, again, the girls that were on TV for music were not pregnant. And they were just a bit younger than me as well. They seemed cooler. So that was what I was trying to emulate when really I wasn't being true to myself. And the better way was to just be me. Knowing this now. So when you know better you do? How's that played? Out? Right now? Oh, that's not the bag and go happy? Want to ask you. This sort of ties into was saying earlier about what we learned from our mothers and they learned from their mothers? Is it important for you, for your children to see you in your own identity as Chanel? Yeah. 100%. And you know what, I had this conversation with Dan, the husband. And he said to me, Chanel. Some people just don't get to he's he's seen the rise and fall. He's seen me get these opportunities, and then me crying a heat when they have just not gone the way I thought they should have at the time. And he said, some people just don't get to do their dream lobby like and I and I, for me that didn't sit well. Because I was like, No, I'm going to because I need to do it for myself. What am I going to ask that? Because I can see I'm having this premonition of me being 50 or 60 years of age and kicking myself for not trying at least so and he said, the kids, you're an amazing man, the kids love you so much. And they will be proud of you if you just worked in a cafe or whatever. And I said, but I'm not proud of me. Yeah. Because you can work in a cafe. Absolutely. If that's what you want to do. But it wasn't what was in my soul to do. And I said, they need to see their mom chasing the path that is right for her, and then encouraging them to do the same thing because they're learning from me. Don't just stand still because it's easy to do. So. Yeah, that's what I mean. Like, if it was easy, everyone would do it. So I said to him, I need them to be proud of, of what I've achieved that I was true to myself. And as I'm getting getting older and talking to different people, people's truths are different. So someone might want to be a doctor, someone might want to own their own cafe or health food store, work in childcare work in the music industry. It's also different to what makes you marched and beat of your own drum. Yeah, but is that was one of my main drivers was that my children were able to be not proud of me, but just see, because I think that when you do what's innate in you, there's a glow about you. Yeah. And I can feel that energy in that sense. And I want them to do the exact same thing with you. If my son's obsessed with Ben trucks, stinky Finn trucks. Drive a big truck for the rest of your life, mate. You ready? Go for it? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Happy. That's what that's the thing you know, like I can imagine both of them running away from the microphone. They're just not like me in that sense. Yeah. But whatever it is, it's in your soul you do it and and back yourself first and then others will back you two pages How do you feel about followers of your social media or colleagues, knowing that you do have children, you sort of happy for them to be aware of that. I often feel that it's gives a sense of who you are really, as a person when you because we, yeah, I spent time hiding them away. And not from the media spotlight, but from the fact that I was trying to have it all together and my kids, you know, you need to just thought now I just need to bring them along with the journey. And I've brought all the team meetings before and he's watched trucks and on my phone who not great, but it needed to happen. Yeah. And then you move something spilled his snacks all over the floor. And it's really embarrassing. And I was trying to scrape by he cuz yeah, that's the thing. We just need to don't worry about it, bring them with us get stuff done, because what we're doing multitasking is brilliant. And it has not been done before. Yeah, absolutely. It's like we're paving the way for the future, paving the way for fellow sisters that will come come up the ranks and need us to set the platform. Because half the time we haven't had the chance to learn off of a lot of people. Oh, yeah, it's literally like flying by the seat of your pants is a great explanation for it. Because you're you're like, is this gonna work done? I haven't done this before. Gonna give it a try. What's gonna happen? You know, you're just feeling your way as you go. Yeah, I think it's contagious because other women then in a similar position might go you know what, I'm gonna do that, because I needed that reassuring kick up the bum to do what's right for me, you know? Talking about mom guilt, oh, I had this moment recently where I was, uh, my little one kept asking me to record him doing some tricks on the trampoline. And I went out there and I was so ready to record him. And he's doing his tricks. And I realized I hadn't hit record. Because I ma are in storage is full. And you've taken too many pictures of the kids. And there's deleting them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a great topic. That one, isn't it? Isn't it? Oh, and you go through and you're like, actually take none of myself. And not that we could walk around taking selfies, but would be nice to have some, you know, inclusion on your phone. Because they're all of the kids doing their little moments of grandeur, aren't they? Oh, yeah. We're always behind the camera. We're never in front of it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So that's like a whole topic. That one is pretty well. I think this is innate in us, even though and this is probably applicable to a lot of women that you deal with being mothers in the arts industry. In the media industry. We're used to being on the front of things because of our art form, whether it is emceeing speaking, presenting, playing an instrument singing anything like that mentoring, when you get your children you're on the back because you push them forward to shine in whatever they're doing whether it's so summer's teacher, my five year old she's asked her to read a little sentence at the liturgy on Friday so I've literally move mountains to go and see this one sentence. I'm making a practice practice Indian getting right what one thought he said to carrying on and anyway I was because of COVID you can have that many people there. So it's just you know, a small amount so I was literally moving heaven and earth to make sure I got a spot at this liturgy so I can wave and record the whole thing on my phone. Yeah, and maybe watch it back after I've had a few videos. isn't having to. Yeah. And then so that's the thing we push them to the front of they're the kind of shines in our life. But when you put your work hat on, you are the opposite of that you're the woman that's either you know, you're playing your instrument, or you're talking on the microphone, or whatever it is. Yeah. So it's funny how we kind of wear many hats. Absolutely, and are able to just like, swap them in, in a millisecond, like it's even milli second, there's no hat stand is no time for the hat stand. Instantly, and then your friend needs your help. So you're instantly there for her or him, whatever, whatever. Whoever is needing you at that point. And then you're back on the Mon bandwagon because you've realized it's 530. And you've not sorted dinner. So then, you know, all the time. Yeah, it's so true. It's incredible. I saw a image main things on Instagram yesterday, and it was of a mom, that was, you know, how you have those plates, spinners, and you've got to keep the plates going. And it was like all the different elements of what moms and I noticed that whoever wrote it hadn't put your own. When I looked at, I think, when you're supposed to do your own thing, like your music or your you know, it was like that wasn't even on there. It was like, Oh, my God, like add that in as well. And it was just well, and that's where I think if you don't add that in, you run into trouble later on. It's a difficult task to put it in. It's, it's something we've got to be really conscious of, and really mindful of, but I think if we don't have that element of putting ourselves not before our kids, but making ourselves a priority to Yeah, or something else. You know, it's, it's really, it's, yeah, it's so important. Because then you go through something where you later on your kids don't need you as much anymore. You always need your money, but as much and then you're trying to fill that void with other things where you and then there's that regret where you missed out on doing that for yourself. And I think we're better at doing that now. I think our mom's generation, our grandmothers, I think learned the hard way. Yeah. And then some of them now at age 50, and 60 are living their best version of themselves, because they've realized they've got that freedom. Where is that? When given that, that grace or that exception? Years years ago? Because you were told to just follow what your mom did? You did what her mom? Do they do what her mom did? Yeah, you know, so now we're kind of having this awakening where we're celebrated for having children and doing this as well, because it's not just that we're able to multitask, but we're able to show that the talents that we do have in a certain area. Yeah. And it's like, I've always struggled with this, this identity thing that deep down, like, you're still the same person that you were, act, like you just happen to have a child. It's like, why should all that, you know, goodness and potential and you know, the stuff you give to the world? Why should that just go? Not finished, your mum now, doesn't matter. Yeah. And the thing is, we work so hard in our careers in our early years, you know, especially in the arts, a lot of that is volunteer work based to get base there to get your skill set up to get your name out there to get runs on the board as far as experience, because nine times out of 10 There's no better way of learning something than just doing it. You know, you study at university, and that's all great, but having actual tangible experience doing something, or you know, playing an instrument, the best way to play an instrument is to do it. Public speaking, emcee work, it's all of that. So it's, it's really, it was really something that I think once you start to get that in in a row, and really start to get some runs on the board for yourself, then you get to the point where you're clock's ticking. And you feel like you're literally two versions of yourself because you're like, I want to have children. I've got that yearning, but I'm just starting to get somewhere. And it's like, and then you finished your apple. Oh can I have the chocolate chip biscuit? I promised him a chocolate chip biscuit if he sat quietly. Oh my gosh, that was the best timing. That was amazing. 73 So sorry, no, no, no, you're fine. Honestly, it's this is being a man. Exactly. Yeah, just just say you get that moment of where you start getting some traction in your career, and then something else innate in you comes a knockin, and then that knot gets louder and louder and louder and you can't ignore it but you're torn between doing what you want. to do and what what is what your body wants you to do. And there's no shame in whether you have children or not. But if there's a desire in you, it's very, very difficult to turn that switch off possible. So when you said before, like you just said, you're choosing between what you want to do, it's literally and what you want to do, like you want to do both things. But how you actually do both things. Like it's just this constant, like the juggling out, it's just yeah. And it was interesting. You said earlier, you're doing you do what you want to do. It's not at the expense of your children. You're not saying you're not putting yourself first that's what it was. It's not like you're choosing put yourself first, but you're choosing to acknowledge that part of your life has been worth and it's important that you are going to choose to do that. Yeah, it's not at the expense of everyone, anyone else. You know what I mean? You know, I think a lot of that stigma years ago, where they would have assumed that you are just selfish, and putting yourself first couldn't be any more further from that. Because the love that a mother has for her child is something that science can't explain, the best poet can explain in words, it's felt so deeply, rather than and it can be described as best possible but it's it's so deeply felt that's where so many mothers have turned around to each other and go now, you know, that feeling? And they agree, yes, they get it. So it's not possible to for a mother that wants to be there for her children to just go, oh, well, I'm putting myself first it's not that it's acknowledging that you are a priority to and that you deserve to still be who you are. Because often we're having children at an age where we have still sick, we're not having them at 50 years of age 60 Some, some women are but very unlikely. We're mainly doing it between the ages of 25 and 45. Yeah, it's like we're still young to do what we want to do in our careers. change careers. 5060 Yeah. Yeah, whatever it is, where they go, You know what, I never did this. And I'm kicking myself, but I'm doing it now. Great. Yeah, absolutely. Motherhood and work is no mean feat. And it is incredibly challenging. But I think what's more challenging is the not doing and then not owning who you are, and then not giving yourself an opportunity to shine. Like you being a singer, an incredible singer, I might add you you get this opportunity where if you weren't using your voice and writing music, theory has the opportunity to hear you music and in itself has the opportunity is this art form really that that allows people to feel something when they hear you. And most artists are truly themselves when they are either playing that instrument or sing that song. Most often that they're most often that songs. So what if you're not using your talents that have been the universe has given to you? What a waste? You? Yeah, absolutely. Give yourself back yourself. Know that? Yes, it's it's certainly not easy, not easy at all, by any stretch of the imagination. But what I feel is worse is the lighter the not doing the regret because then you can't change it. That's it, isn't it? It's buy time back. So if there's any any kind of kick up the bum, if anyone needs anything is that moment where you said you were at your your old workplace. And you said I just had this moment of realizing that I needed to follow my passion. And the passion just came things just have a funny way of linking up. Oh, yeah, that's it. Yeah, you just gotta you've got to be, you've got to be open to it. You've got to be like, right, I'm willing to not be in control of this, you know, that little bit of surrender to say, right. Do with me what you will, I guess? And, you know, lately leave me where, where? Where might you know that I'm going to be happy, you know, I'm going to be fulfilled. And yeah, you know what, I also had a conversation with one of my best girlfriends the other day and she said, I'm just feeling lost. I don't want to go back to my old job. But I don't know what I want to do. And I said, the fact that you say that now and she said I'm frustrated because I need to know, I'm getting impatient. I want to know what I want to do. And I said, You got to take your foot off. For starters, take the pressure off yourself and know that if you don't want to go back to your old job, fine, that's something you definitely do know that that's not right. So sit with it for a bit, had these moments of either like meditation or just calmly thinking, I want to I am open to receiving whatever it is that's out there for me. So do some soul searching, don't get frustrated with yourself that you don't know. Just start that those moments of trying to figure it out slowly step by step, because once you've gone one step, two step three step and you've linked up those little lily pads. That's quite a journey. Hmm. And you will get Yep. But there's there needs to be that moment in time where you take the pressure off yourself and not knowing to, which is ahead. So you're so vulnerable, and you're at the whim of whatever. And if you're used to being in control, it's very confronting thing to do. Yeah, especially. And often sometimes we feel that we if things aren't going right in the workspace that we not hide behind our kids, but just throw ourselves into that role more, because we're not ready to make the decision to do a leap in our careers yet. Yeah, because what I would say to that is, that's, that's fine. If you want, if you if you all you want to do is spend all your time with your kids, that's if that's in your soul, and you go for it. But if you're using it as like a bit of a not a hide behind, but a moment to not spend time thinking about what's truly deserving of you, it's only going to fester and get more frustrating and more, you know, pent up. So that's where you go, Okay, well, I am going to spend time with my kids, I'm going to just enjoy them for a minute. But I am also going to take that time to slowly map out my next chapter. Because they will go off to school. And they will, you know, start to be a little bit more independent. When then when you have that time, then that's when maybe you can send other big seeds to things, send those emails or look to do courses, the amount of people that have gone back to do courses, you being one of the mature mature age. The amount of people that have gone back to to study later on because because what they wanted to do has made sense later, it didn't make sense to you to work in childcare. When you were 20 years old, it never entered my mind ever been to the right time. So it was that's where they said you needed to do some other things first, and you were at that prime moment where you could give your maturity you could give your your knowledge. And you could give yourself that that real sense of okay, I'm at a point now where I'm ready to learn because not a lot of us know what we want to do. The minute we finish year 12. Honestly, this is thing I'm not looking forward to my son, my oldest son's in high school is his first year. My youngest son's just 10 seats. So we're highly different ends of things with schooling. But yeah, this thing with Alex, they're saying to him, or what do you want to do start thinking about subjects and it's like, no, stop this. And I keep reminding him, I say to him, remember, I've only been doing this job for nearly nine years, you know, you don't have to decide now, like take that pressure off yourself. Like often it's there's not a lot of, of us that it makes sense. The minute we leave school, and that frustrates us because we go we need to get you know, especially as mothers, we need to get this time in before we have a baby. We need to you know this rush, rush, rush, rush, rush. And that's where I'd kind of come in and remind and say, well, there is time before, during and after. Because people can't get away this day and age just being discriminatory towards mothers and women and pregnant women. It's not allowed. It's a big fat no. And we're deserving of that, that that grace to be given to us. And that that moment of reassurance where we go, You know what, you can do this, because you are more than just who you are to your children, you are still yourself too. And if you combine those two wonderful elements, you live your best version of yourself. Like that was the second best quote. That was brilliant. On that one that is gold. That is on. Oh, please. Thank you. Shinya. That's a beautiful note to end on. Actually. Thank you. That's Oh, my pleasure. To be involved. I was as I said, I was peeling off my fake eyelashes. When your email came through, and I was thrilled to be it so I thought, what better way to start your morning then chat With a like minded sister and have a coffee. No thank you. distraction device that my son moved to biscuits. Oh, I love that. Oh, you had any of your kids come in whilst you've been doing the nasty No, I haven't got to go there even Dan will give me a hug in the kitchen. Yeah, some will be like Stop. Don't Don't don't like it. Yeah. Get your hands off mom. Y'all wanna talk? Wait, okay now from the beginning, motherhood beautiful nightmare. When your child eats something healthy that you make, and they will sit down, and you are literally strutting in the kitchen as if you are Beyonce. You are like Jamie Oliver, you've just served the queen. You know, a palm reader did tell me it looks like you've been treading water your whole life until you're 50. As in the thing you meant to do is not going to happen to you. 50 on my for another lesson that's treading water. I'm like, that's a long time to wait, lady. Yeah, some good legs. I'm gonna we're gonna do in that time. Read a book. First thing I was thinking with my vagina. Like, yeah, isn't it what you know, asking the obstetrician that couple a couple of small sutures, but we're okay. bodies just come away from the top. But it's fine. Have you ever had a push present? I got my son's weird my third ring. My vital Is it better? Yes. Tell us more about your bottle of the eternity ring. As you said Hang on. Do you say eat turd? If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Jillian Lauren US best selling author + journalist S2 Ep70 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am thrilled to welcome Jillian Lauren to the podcast this week, a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock + roll wife + mother of 2 based in Los Angeles, United States Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey and graduated from Newark Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University. Soon after, she started exotic dancing in New York at the Kit Kat Club + became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the Prince of Brunei for 18 months. When Jillian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with an Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career, with Jillian's work since appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles Magazine. Jillian is a New York Times Best Selling author of 2 memoirs Some Girls: My Life in a Harem , about her experience as The Harem Girl, and Everything You Ever Wanted about her journey of adopting her son Tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tariku came to the family as an 18 month old, and brought with him intense trauma responses and during the next few years Jillian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her instincts. Jillian and her husband Scott Shriner (bassist from Weezer) added to their family in 2015 when they adopted through the US foster system their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and has an autism diagnosis. She has also written a fiction novel entitled Pretty and has an upcoming novel based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel Little called Behold the Monster coming out in 2023 . Several of Jillian’s manuscripts are being developed into TV + Film projects the most recent being Confronting a Serial Killer released on STARZ. The five-episode series tells the story of the relationship between Jillian Lauren + the most prolific serial killer in American history Sam Little, and her work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered, before he passes away. **This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss + miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer and does contain a bit of swearing** Visit Jillian's website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age + ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled to welcome to the podcast Jillian Lauren. Julian is a writer, investigative journalist, adoption advocate, rock and roll wife and mother of two based in Los Angeles in the United States. Jillian grew up in Livingston, New Jersey, and graduated from New York Academy in 1991. She then moved to New York City as a 16 year old, where she studied acting at New York University and soon after started exotic dancing at the KitKat club and became an escort. This led to Jillian being selected to join the harem of the prince of Brunei, where she stayed for 18 months. When Julian returned from this incredible adventure, she attended Antioch University and graduated with a Masters of Fine Arts in creative writing. This saw the beginning of her writing career with Julian's work now appearing in The New York Times, Vanity Fair and Los Angeles magazine. Julian is a New York Times best selling author of two memoirs, some girls my life in a harem about her experience as the harem girl and everything you ever wanted about her journey of adopting her son tariku from Ethiopia in 2009. Tarik, who came to the family as an 18 month old and brought with him intense trauma responses, and during the next few years, Julian learned so much about advocating for her child and trusting her own instincts. Jillian and her husband, Scott Shriner, the bass player from Weezer, added to their family in 2015. When they adopted through the US foster system, their second son Jovi, who has a history of trauma and abuse, and an autism diagnosis. She's also written a fictional novel entitled prissy, and has an upcoming novel. Based on her personal account of confronting serial killer Samuel little called Behold The Monster coming out in 2023 Several of Julian's manuscripts are being developed into TV and film projects, the most recent being confronting a serial killer released on stars. The five episode series tells the story of the relationship between Julian and the most prolific serial killer in American history, Sam little and Julian's work to bring out the truth and the identities of the 93 women he murdered before he passes away. This episode contains discussions around infertility, pregnancy loss and miscarriage, childhood trauma, a serial killer, and it does contain a bit of swearing. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient new age music trio, LM J, which is comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John. I really hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Julian. It's a real pleasure to meet you. It is so nice to be here. Yeah. And it's funny. I feel like I kind of know I don't know you but I know so much about you through the memoirs that you've written. How did you first sort of get into writing? Well, I have kept a journal since I was eight. So I always wrote always, like I had that, you know, muscle in place. But you know, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to be director I want to be anything but a writer and it really took you know, a journey through some unusual places until I landed where I belong, you know, until I I said to myself, like, what is it that has been consistent in my life for all these years? What do you think? What do you think you were sort of pushing back against the writing that you didn't sort of validate it really hard? Really hard. It's, it's, it's hard to finish. It's hard to start. It's just hard. Like, if you can possibly choose anything else choose anything else? Well, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And, and being a memoirist, it's, you're very, you're being very vulnerable, which I want to commend you for too, because the things that you're sharing, you know, people can relate to, and it opens these opportunities for conversations, which are really important. Did you find was that the first sort of style of writing that you went to? Like, I guess, because if you're journaling in your diary, no, because I couldn't sell my first novel. Yeah. That's the memoir. To tell you the truth. I wanted nothing more than to never write that memoir. Yeah. Why to never write some girls, because I knew I knew was sensational. Like that it would get bought, very likely, you know, because I'm not the only woman who was over there. But, you know, I'm also a real writer. Yes. There are so many book clubs I go to where they're like, do you write your own book? I'm like, I'm the writer. Yeah. I'm not like a celebrity with a ghostwriter. Um, yeah, that's it. But it was really scary. And I knew what I was doing. And I tried very hard to eat much more New York curry. And that's always you know, how I saw myself, you know, at the Algonquin club or something, and I'm like, okay, given the times. And, you know, and they were like, nah, nah. And I had just gotten out of graduate school, and I started librarian school, I started to get my master's in library science, because I was starting to think like, you know, I need a plan B. And my husband was like, you know, when I said, I would support you through graduate school. That wasn't like, forever of graduate school. So, like, can you tell me what the plan is here? And, and I was like, you know, what gave me three months. Give me just give me three months, I have this one card left to play. And I talked to my agent. And you know, she's like, I can't sell this. I'm sorry. I love it. I can't sell it. And I was like, Well, you know, I've been thinking writing a memoir, this really interesting thing happened to me, I was the Mistress of the principle and I when I was a teenager, and she was like, what? Job was on the table, you know, like, how have you not told me this before? And I was like, I didn't want to write about it. That's why and, you know, and she was like, Well, do you genuinely feel like you're ready to write about it now? Like, consider all the consequences? Consider, you know, what it means to become memoirist. Consider you're going to be the heroine girl for the rest of her life. When she did you get to a certain point where you're like, okay, not so bad. Not so bad harem girl but I that was actually a quote from one of the other women who was who was in printer, who I still keep in touch with and yeah, you know, she said, like, I mean, thank God, I just something crazy. That's something like that. Not many people could say that. They've had an exciting experience like that. And it's such an exciting life. There is definitely an element of, of edge pushing to my life. You know, I'm an adrenaline junkie. I'm super curious. I always want to see the things that people aren't looking at, you know, I want I want to see the man behind the curtain. Ilana, like, you know, just like I just have the urge to have that kind of bite out of life and it doesn't was winding up in the best places, you know. But it has given me some very interesting stories the next memoir that I've read that you wrote was everything you ever wanted. Can you share with the viewers the sorry, not the viewers, the listeners, what that books about? Everything You Ever Wanted is about the process of adopting my older son. He's 14 Now, his name is tariku. We call them T. And he was adopted from Ethiopia. And before that, we had an extensive history with infertility and that and miscarriages. A lot of miscarriages. We were just sort of reflecting on it the other day. Now that's so far in the past, and like, there was a minute, my period was late. And I was just like, oh, wow, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, gosh, yeah, I do not have enough notice for this right now. And we were just laughing and you know, of course, you know, we would have just accepted it as a blessing it was but yeah, and you know, whether it was miscarriage, just like period or whatever, like it hadn't happened in years. So we were reflecting on how painful that journey was. And, you know, now we have teenage boys, and it's not painful to me anymore, but I can remember. Yeah, yeah, it felt like and also like, your concerns get so different. Yeah, yeah. You know, try like listening with a glass trying to figure out who's a girlfriend? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Any wants to go to Annapolis? He must be like a navy combat pilot. Yeah, right. Yeah. No, and like, he's a whole person. But, you know, I wrote this book every day, I sat down and people criticize, I'm sure as you know, you know, people, women who talk about parenting, right about parenting, or podcasts about parenting mate material about parenting, like, we're exploiting our children. And I'm like, you know, parenting is as valid and experience you know, motherhood is as valid and experience as climbing Mount Everest, or anything else, or bagging groceries, or, you know, might be kowski worked at the post office. So what I was going through was early motherhood. And, you know, and adoption, which was, you know, really exciting, an interesting process, and I was dying to write about that. And, and our beautiful like, we consider our family that we met during that trip who really changed our life. We were there were nine families all together. And we really went through something together and not to like give any spoilers but for instance, they did our paperwork wrong. So we went through the whole week there and Addis transitioning him out of the orphanage you know how painful and difficult that was and of course I have 1000 funny stories about like, you know, like he's not pooping die people other people in the house that were already parents so they were Yeah, lets us but um you know, I mean, we all still keep in touch. Yeah, that's from and when our they had written your, we were like, supposed to adopt a child up to four years old. Like that. You You know, except they wrote four months old. Yeah. This the paperwork. So we're standing there like at the embassy, I am like, I have like the baby, and ergo, we're like ready to get on a plane the next day. There's nowhere to sit. It's just like, there's nowhere to go. Everyone else got their stuff. And they just kind of like walked away from us. And we were like I mean, I was running around, like, it was, you know, like, like, there was like, an alarm that nuclear missiles were coming. Like, I was like, shaking people. They're like, where did that man go? That man who was right there? Where did that man go? Anyway, so the whole group had a chance to go home, you know, we would have had just stayed there. And they come back for us, obviously, we're going to stay there for a long time. And they all stayed with us. Yeah, could pay for. I mean, it was like, it was most unlikely group of friends. And we all still, you know, love each other kids still know each other's incredible process. So, you know, I wanted to write about that those friendships. And then, you know, realizing that T was, you know, had special needs. And there's been diagnosed and re diagnosed column what? calm a lot of things. You know, diagnoses aren't magic. They can just maybe help you communicate with people. Right? About what might help. You know, I mean, basically, everything. We're like, Alright, so for $5,000, you just told us exactly what we already know. Thank you so much. I'm just, you know, the screening, screening and just learning for me to settle into this, you know, acceptance, which we all do as mothers, but I'm like it, I am a very imaginative and a kind way to myself, but, you know, also sort of a controlling person, I would like to, I would like to, like, set the diorama stage and, you know, bring my baby home and have I done all the reading all the, you know, I had to like mill to do the organic baby food and shit. I was canning, I don't know what happened. I really doubt. But, you know, what, he didn't give a shit about organically milled anything. And anything, or, you know, and I was like, we're gonna make homemade bread. Um, and, you know, that wasn't what you wanted or needed. It was, you know, that was my idea. Yeah. Do you want a given what her need? Do you think that some of that is sort of brought on by what, like society expects us mothers to be and the standard that they expect us to hold ourselves to? Yeah, I mean, really, I mean, not all of it, because I'm a little hyperactive myself. So, you know, it's like, you know, Scott will say, like, you know, I'll, I'm writing an article about Tango. So I, all of a sudden, like, all do is Tango for two solid months, like, I'm out every night till two in the morning, smelling like Argentine gangsters when I come home, you know? And, and then article came out and like, I haven't dance. And so, you know, it's like, I picked up on every, every parenting trend, every one of them, you know. And in Los Angeles, it's like, I mean, I imagine like in most major cities, you find you're sort of, you know, you have to find your sort of niche. If you want community to support us. So, you know, we had friends that were into Waldorf, we had friends that were into something called dry. I don't know if you know what that is. It's basically like, put your babies in an octagon and just like, let them work it out. Let the curiosity out. Okay. It's a new one for me. I went to this Oh, I mean, and the baby yoga and ever, and all these kids are like, you now and my kid just gets in there and just wants that toy. And Bob said, Can the head and takes it. And you're supposed to sit there and watch, right? That's like the whole idea of a thing. Like you don't interfere with their their growth or their interaction during the group. And at some point, I was just looking at, I was like, Do you guys want me to get my kid because he's gonna hurt your kids. Like, this is not a principle that works for everyone. You know, but everyone thinks the thing that not everyone, there plenty of people have had multiple experiences, you know, the thing that they find that whatever methodology of parenting or schooling, works for them is the only way and it's hard for me to explain to them, like, my kid would have been kicked out of a Waldorf school and a week, you know, and, like, the French school. Like, wouldn't just already knew that we're going to kick them out. But we are going to kick them out. Yeah, you know. So it was about that journey for me. And, you know, as all my books are, and people find it hard to be written about not t he loves that book. Yeah. But he, you know, he knows, he knows what happened, you know, and he knows sort of my version of it. And he has his version of it. And he's really proud of the book. And so my No, and that was my goal. When I wrote it. I was like, This is a gift to my son. Yeah, you know, I'm talking about all this stuff, warts and all. But this is a gift to my son, ultimately, that, you know, the first, like, almost three years of his life are really pretty. You know, like, the major points are pretty well documented in that book. And I would hope that you know, that that that'll be special to him someday. Jovi's book coming, I'm like, No, I'm so done. Do you might get an essay, like second child syndrome Yeah. You just mentioned JB, how old? Is he idea? Yeah. So he, he came to you in a slightly different way was through. Right. So we adopted tea from Ethiopia when he was 11 months old. We thought, you know, Ethiopia would be a great choice again, because there's so much you know, it's a rich culturally, and he's really into it. And, you know, there were no more adoptions happening in Ethiopia at the time. I was just going over there and doing kind of grassroots work in communities and, and, and orphanages and stuff. So, I mean, that was best I could do like to be close to his culture, but we'd have to Jovie out of the foster care system here. DCFS. And we had really, we knew that the likelihood of black boys being adopted after the age of two, I mean, the likelihood of Blackboard is being adopted at all. But after the age of two, like it's almost nothing. Percentages are so low. And we had been through so much with T. And he was really kind of out the other side of it by then. I mean, he's still like struggling attention and stuff. But you know, he wasn't. I mean, now, like I said, you you would never guess. Yeah, yep. No, it was just like, I'm like, here's the perfect. Here's the perfect example. She the minute I open Christmas ornaments for the first time. And he looked at them, he just picked one. Just a ball looks like a ball rather than the wall. Oh, yeah. goes in like tiny shards, a really thin glass all over the living room. Yeah. Joe V, we adopted to DCFS because, like, we felt really moved by that. And also, we thought like, if not us, then who? I mean, really, we've been through so much. We have these resources. You know, like, we have resources for another child. And we have resources for, you know, therapy with like, no, the best therapists we have done all this training. And, um, and it was still so scary. Yeah. You really, really scary, like Skarner those, you know, we both have, we're both prayerful people. We don't often pray together. There have been only like a handful of times in our life. And we come from different traditions. So like, pray differently. But like after the first time, we met Jovi, and we realized he couldn't really talk. You know, like, half his mouth was all rotted out. I changed his diaper stone diapers. I mean, he was wearing a size two, us three and a half. Like, there was no hand soap in the house. He was getting the shit beat out of him by older kids. And it was really scary. You know, and we pulled the car over and just like, held hands and just prayed for guidance and and, you know, and sad sat there for a minute together. And he turned and looked to me and he said, you know, someone's gotta believe in someone's on time. Live Let's believe in this kid. It's making that's yeah. Oh, yeah. Such an asshole. Sometimes she really nails it like the times that he nails it, he nails it. One of them someone's gonna believe in someone sometime. And you know, and the first months with Jovi for us were like, we would just hold him while he screamed and scream and like, sweat was covering his body. Like he was so slick. Like, we were like, human hold on to him. And you know, who's screaming cry, he would lie under the bed. Like, I would just go and kind of lie next to the bed. Like, I'm just here. You know, we're gonna talk. Like you didn't even have any words. You didn't know a cow said Moo. Yeah, and 123 or ABC, you know? So not only is he in this totally unfamiliar environment doesn't understand why. Um, he only now barely understands why. Yeah, wrap his head around what happened? You know, the events life that led us here. And he's only just starting to ask. But yeah, it was like, I mean, he was always so funny. Yeah. So funny. And so adorable. I mean, all these are survival skills, you know, the same way like a big shining bright star. Um, and you know, in, in traumatic situations for children, they'll often get really big and now there'll be the one that gets the attention. Or the one that gets more food maybe or the one that you know. Yeah, yeah, so Jovi. I'm thinking it really started to turn around for us. Like three years ago, you know, we took him to, he got an autism diagnosis, we took him to a really specialized preschool that was almost like one on one. Yeah. And there were like, only five kids in the class. And you know, it was specifically for kids with autism. For the most part, you know, or symptoms presenting that way. And we had to attend with him for like, the first six months. I know. I know. Like, you are fucking with me right now. Like, I can't even drop this kid off at autism preschool. Like, what do you do here? Please, God, someone helped me. But it was amazing. It totally changed things. He did, you know, he matriculated in kinder, and we had a really supportive school, really supportive Public Charter School, who love the kids and aren't scared. They, they're not scared of a diagnosis. They're, they do IEPs, which are individualized education programs, if your kid needs, you know, because every kid is supposed to get the education they need. And so they do their own IPs. They have great people who work with Jovi and he plays a violin and he dances and he knows how to take breaks. And I mean, he is he's brilliant. He's working at and above grade level. Yeah, like you told me the other day like I don't want to be in this baby math class anymore. failing math class. School is not necessarily separated by grade all the time. Like they'll have like a b and c mat and and like they might have kids from different grades in like who are just at that level of math right. So I you know, I called the school I was like me, can we have a meeting because Joby feels like he's in the baby math class? And they're like, Joby, you are the youngest person in your class. You're not in the baby math class, and you're not ready for the next one. But what a what a miracle. Oh, yeah. It's, it's wonderful, isn't it? Yeah, I love soccer. He loves our animals. Yeah. And the trauma stuff, it's all there. No, and for both of them, it comes out. At different times, there are different triggers, like the job aids, a lot of medical stuff, hospitals, things like that. Like we had to take them to the hospital, he had a really high fever and hell get bronchial stuff. It changed the hospital recently, and that check blood and he for two days was like, a one year old. You know, if you progress you know, and so different things would trigger it. And it'll come popping up but I mean, I don't think about it every minute of every day anymore. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty cool. So it's I mean, you you've been through so much. And you know, I think it's like it's a credit to yourself and to Scott that, you know, you've got so much love to give your children and you know, like you said you've done certain training like you've learned how to assist them when they need it and it's just it's a joy like you're experiencing now. You know, the other side of it. It's wonderful Jovi when his soccer game, even though I had to pay I have six. You know, I'm just like, you're supposed to like it just being an all star team is just parent torture. Like I made all stars. Yay. Yeah, we have to do I have to like drive an hour 630 On a Sunday. But um, how old are your kids? So Alex, he's 14 and Digby seven. So if we ever get, but I can relate to the likes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But yeah, degrees just started playing tennis and it's the first time we've had any either child play a Saturday morning sport. So we're like, geez, we did want to get out of it for this. Now. Now I do. Yeah. Got like, I pulled the curtains at six this morning. You know what Soccer League? is what I think about you cycling Yeah. Nik, I know you've you said before we started recording, you've been talking a lot about your serial killers and things. But I sort of without talking specifically too much about that. But I want to talk about how it's affected you as a mother. It's pretty full on. It has been, it has been really hard. And I can't say I feel like I have an answer for you. That worked. Yeah, no, I was totally successful. Because everyone in my family was affected by me working on that story. You know, and it happened like that, like at the very end of it. When everyone was like, like, this is like enough of this poison in our lives, even though the work I was doing was so amazing and wonderful and gratifying in terms of the victims. Like, I was talking on speakerphone to a serial killer every single day. And then COVID hit, and everyone's in the house all the time. Yeah. And so like, it's not that big of a house. I can know and it echoes and stuff and like, and they know who they know what I do. And they know who I'm talking to it. Like, I mean team more than Jovi, you know, but T asks and I answer and I say you know, this is like, disturbing. disturbs me. And I love that you're curious because like Alaska, how they solve the case or something. Like I love that you're curious. I love talking about this stuff. But like also do you want to talk about how it makes you feel? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mama dog bite out makes me feel that, you know, he's like, he's like junior detective. So like, he'll get into the, you know, is a really good linear critical thinker. So like, he'll get into the, like, the stories leads and stuff with me, but I'm really, you know, it, it affected the most, because I wasn't around the piece that involves a lot of traveling. And it was just also present involved like me working 12 to 14 hours a day. So I wasn't around. And I was like an on hyper vigilance. Getting these calls from a serial killer every day. Yeah. Um, and you know, which was both for audio content for the documentary and stuff, but it was mostly, you know, to have a record of the kind of details I was getting from him to give to law enforcement. Because like I work very closely with law enforcement during the scene. Um, little case, because like I had his year, you know? Or he had my year end in a case. Yeah. Um, so I wasn't around a lot. I was when I look back, I can see it more than I saw then that like, my anger was coming out. Yeah. You know, because it's like they can deal with sadness. And just like if if you're crying, they don't mommy cries like that. It's like a joke. Mommy cries, right. Like, like, if there's ever a scene in a movie that's sad. Like, like, I mean, don't even talk to me about Mallanna. Okay. Ana has like four huge crime moments like to and you get over him fast, but Mallanna. So they'll be like, are you crying and crying? But I think I was. I was angry. No. And that was coming out in a way that I am from New York, I'm sarcastic. i If you have dinner with my family, you are going to have to, like raise your decibel level to get heard. Um, you know, and like, we razz each other all the time. And it just, it's an East Coast thing. It's just it's just how my family is. Oh, do I know my biggest parenting tip? Yeah. You want to know how to get your kids to not swear? Swear all the time? Really? I mean it. Yeah. And brown who's also whose parenting counselor says the same thing. She has a really filthy mouth. You know, like, Fuck was every other word. My house. So you know, I'm like, sorry, Mommy's not gonna go changing and this is parents don't talk like that do they don't? You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Yeah, that's the thing is that like you? You talked about that anger. And I guess that's thing you're processing all your emotions that you're going through, and you're speaking to this man and finding out all these things and, and dealing with the families of, of people that he's harmed. And then you're trying to process that volume of it. Overwhelming. I mean, there were 93 confessions. Like it's hard enough to deal with one. That's just you can't fathom, like sort through this. I mean, I had 40 notebooks, it was glitzy making. And I think that, you know, what I didn't have was that tiny bit of extra space. Like, that was there for a really long time. That could always like make a beautiful dinner, you know, and just like reconnect, or sit and watch movie with Jovi or play cards or something. And like, you know, I wound up just like, shoveling soup into my mouth in front of the computer for you know, I mean, years. So we're just sort of trying to get a routine back here. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But I do want to sort of shine a light on the work that you've done. It didn't commend you for that. And thank you for that. Because it's such important work and obviously the families of the women would be incredibly grateful for the work that you've done. I mean, I I know that you know, I know them I mean, not, you know, there were a few victims into which I did a really deep dive, and then a few victims that I helped solve the cases. And when I saw it from top to bottom, I figured out it was in a different jurisdiction. Yeah. And, and with that, I was able to find some articles that look like they matched, and that I went to the place. And it was exactly what Sam described. And you know, and I was, and that was Alice. And I'm really close with Alice's family. They came to town, her sister came to town with her two nieces. You know, they, they took me out to lunch. And, you know, like, they said that until they realized, like, until I called them and told them, you know, and I do it very, very slowly, like, the Navier sisters come up in some of my research. You know, and would you like to know anything about it? And then I'll, you know, I'll give him a chance to say no, I don't want to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It's not like you just bled all. Even with Debbie with Alice's sister. You know, she asked for a couple of days. And, and as a journalist, you're like, you know, you want to like you just have this instinct and this training to like, never walk away you walk away and give someone a couple days, then they're gonna decide not to talk to you. Yeah, that's right. Then if you let anyone think about it, they're gonna do it. She actually called me back and was like, okay, like I'm ready to talk about this I talked about with my kids talked about it with my husband. Like I'd like to hear everything you have I'm a member of the military and I'm have a very strong backbone and you know Tamera thing and and she's just remarkable and then Denise brothers, I went to Odessa, Texas just like drove there on my own and you know, and her family like welcomed me into their kitchen and showed me their pictures and love letters and you know Audrey Nelson's daughter and I do think that my kids understand that I mean, regardless of you know Sam little not being the last project of my life you know, we're gonna move on I will stay in this field continuing to find missing persons and you know just get it out there as much as I can and restore names to women who have been lost Yeah, good on you system etc. Yeah, I'm with you know, they're gonna they're gonna have to get behind. On that is it do you find that it's important that your children see you as more than a library air quotes is just mom because we're never just mom but that you're also contributing so much with your work that you're doing and your writing and your investigation. I imagine that their feelings about it are going to change over time. You know, Jovi will say things like you're always working mad like made me feel horrible. I don't know what they'll think and I don't think It's I think it's important that your kids see that you're leading a meaningful and engaged life. You know, there's no such thing as just mom. You know, if you're meaningful and engaged, and your primary you know, your primary activity is taking care of your children, you know, then I think that that would be wonderful and nurturing. And at the same time, that's not me. I was never gonna give up my career. You know? And, like, T asked me a few days ago, because I was like, Oh, over there baby pictures. I don't know why there was some out. Yeah. And there's, but we're both the cutest thing in the world. And, and, you know, of course, like all kids always want to hear about how cute they were when they're babies. And when the funny things they said, and they love their own mythologies. And he said, Well, you know, did you like it better? Or we got a new puppy. And he said, did you like better? Having a baby or having a teenager? And I said, How many teenager? Yeah, you know, and he was like, what? Like, how would you say like, I guess I was supposed to say, you know, I love him all like all those years. But I didn't. Like, I liked them. I mean, it's not like I liked them more. Now. I just liked my life more now. If they consider a restaurant, or I like our life as a family more now we went to a friend of mines been named spa the other day, and they were able to sit through the whole ceremony and I almost you could have knocked me over with a feather. Yeah. And and they're both like, into their things. And they're super interesting. And like, I don't have to, you know, be the party clown all day. My mother never understood, like, this parenting generation at all. She was like, What are you doing? What are you talking about? Because I was like, No, I gotta go this group and that group in this group in that group. She's like, can you just give them a choo choo? And like, put them in a play pen? What? Go home at Virginia slam and have a bottle of red wine which is just like your own nuts. You don't? Then but then again, you know, I did go and walk the route that I used to walk to school. Last time I was home and I was like, trying to get me killed. Seriously, that is a lonely path through a dark wood. Oh, no joke. It's got to be something in between, you know, but yeah, that battle, you know, now now that they're into their own things. I mean, of course, you know, I love babies and love baby smell. I love other people's babies. I love my grandbabies. Hopefully one day. But that's nice. I tell them the truth. And it was like, Oh, you're so horrible. I could do say that. Like, personnel and I really like you. Yeah. And see, that's the thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with being honest with your children. Like, you know, we don't have to sugarcoat everything and make, you know, pleat. People please another night just can be honest with them and life's great now, you know, like, you'd be happy about that. I think that, you know, at the same time, I like to try and be conscious of, you know, I mean, maybe like the totally honest me is, is not to me, my kids need Yeah, like Vanita mitigated me, like so does everybody know I'm on to me, like full force. But, you know, they definitely bring like a consciousness to how I talk, you know, and, like, I know, I know that when I do it right. And don't like, you know, shames Graeme, all that stuff. When I do it right, and like, you know, have a conversation. I mean, there have been times like it actually worked recently. Yeah. Like, you're gonna have to learn to put your clothes away. Like, I'm not like I will, they will sit here in a pile until you do like you want to go to the Navy. By the way, get up and do some push up. Yeah. Oh, close away. So yeah, that sounds very similar to my son, he's wants to be in the army but never makes his bed fixed. Like, hang on a sec, that's not gonna cut it. You know, I, I think that he's been starting to be able to hear it. Like thinking about his future a little bit. That's been the biggest difference this year. He's 14, you know? And I've been like, Listen, I need you to hear me because you're like college, this in college, that when I'm in college, and I was like, colleges doesn't happen magically. Um, and we can't pay for a private college for two children for four years. Like, who can't who can't write. So I was like, we're gonna have to think creatively. You know, I don't want you in debt for the rest of your life, either. You know, so let's start to really think about this, you know, what scores do you need to get into what schools and and then you know, and all he wants airplanes, airplanes, air. And just like one day, I was like, What about the Air Force Academy? And he was just like, Huh. Like I was doing for ROTC program, which is like, where they start doing, like some military training when they're still in high school. Like, Yeah, boy scouts, but soldiers. Yeah, right. Yeah. And he was like, Huh. So then he got on to that. And then, you know, I started finding out about the Navy pilots, Annapolis, and then, you know, we worked up going to and we called my friend who was a pilot. And, and he said, you know, is there such a thing? Is there really such a thing as Top Gun? And my friend was like, There absolutely is. It's not called that. It's called, like, the flight defense superveloce Law, some stupid thing, like somebody in Hollywood camp, a Top Gun. But it isn't an absolutely real thing. And he said, but you're not going to get into it. It's like, the top 1% of fliers in the country. And, you know, it's like getting into Harvard, or like, you know, becoming president or something. Like, it's not quite that hard, but, you know, is, but it's like getting into Harvard. It's like, yeah, and, you know, the, the likelihood is, you won't get it. And you said, okay, you know, and they talked more and blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we were just talking I was like, so how does that make you feel? You know, when he says it's impossible? And he was like, um, I don't know. I was like, because when someone tells me something's impossible, it kind of makes me feel like proving them wrong. And I just watched his eyes light up. And oh, no, this one my friends. It's like pitching for the Dodgers. Right? Or like joining the NBA. Ya know, and I was like, you know, what, you you're 14. We know you're not pitching for the Dodgers. Sorry. You're not You're very good pitcher. But you're not pitching for the Dodgers. You know, and you're not in MBA either. That's not going to happen. I was like, but we don't know. What if you're, if you are going to be in the NBA of fliers. Pilots like you very well could be like the the amount of time he puts in on the flight simulator. And I was like, so. I mean, we could have a lot of different plans. But if that's what you want to do, let's go for it. You know, Oh yeah, that's awesome. It's so fun, you know, and then to have them be like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the Dodger pitchers of combat pilot. Good on him. So, it's really thrilling. It's really fun. I try not to get like, too excited though or like, show it about anything they're into. You know, because moms are not cool by their nature. Don't embarrass them. You tell me what you think, like this generation of kids are really different from me, like when my parents were 35 they were old people. Like they were total grownups. You know, who like stockbroker housewife, dinner parties, grownups and kids were like, you know, listen through from the upstairs. Um, and, like, and, and there was this combativeness between, you know, like, you make yourself like Adley and punk rock clothes are listening to punk rock music, or my parents really a hidden problem with that, like, why? Yeah, it seems like such such a tiny thing to sacrifice a relationship with your child for, um, but they were just raised by different people. But like, our friends, our group of friends and our kids, like, all hang out together. Yeah, it's definitely different. Like, I remember the same thing like Mum and Dad would have, they had, we had a passage door that sort of divided the living area and the bedrooms. And that whenever we went to bed that would always be shut, and we'd hear the, they'd be out there with their friends. And we could We'd sneak to the door and listen, you know, it's just, I feel like, like, us, our, our parenting styles have changed so much that we include our children in so much more now. And I think that also allows us to, I don't know, I don't wanna say not grow up, because we, you know, we physically grow up, but we were still ourselves. We don't have to take on this role of the big serious parents that you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, and that's also not me. You know, like, I mean, you know, entail I was doing some really serious journalism and traveling, like, the Deep South and stuff, and I took my hair back now, I had blue hair till just a few years ago. And man T would like be on the road and get our hair done together and matching blue hair. And it was just like, you know, how fun and also like, we don't listen to all that much different music than they do. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're into superhero movies. I love Star Wars. So was his number one. Yeah. And that's driven by me. We are Marvel Universe here. Yeah. Yeah. All about Marvel. Yeah. We are like we already have tickets for Black Panther opening. Yeah, it's like, we're not that. I mean, now you know, T likes to just talk to his friends on the phone. Actually, one of his friends is going to show up any minute. But um, nice talk to his friends, you know, and just on his iPads I mean, he could do it all day long. So it's not like he wants to hang around us all the time. But like, we had a couple of nerf wars lately. Yeah. And you're my husband is veteran and a lot of our friends are also veterans. So they are extraordinarily serious about like, organizing the teams and you had to like each have a little, you know, space and you gotta go get the flag and get back and if you get hit twice, whatever. Yeah, um, you know, but like, they wanted the parents to play. Yeah. Last the last birthday party. We went to parents played kids in kickball. Yep. And great. Yeah. It's like, you know, like, parents versus kids. Like, I don't think. I mean, when I was 14, are you kidding? Like, yeah, it'd be just no way. Hey, we hated them. And we they wouldn't play kickball. Are you kidding? We're like busy smoking at the mall. Yeah, it's good. It's great. I'm so pleased. Like, I feel like I've got a really good relationship with my 14 year old like he, you know, we're very close. And it's really good. And I hope it stays that way. As he gets out of me, it goes up and down. You know, my 14 year old and I've always, we're both stubborn. And we've come to blows for sure. I'm not actual blows. But yeah. You know, we like to say lock horns. Yeah. And so, you know, it's been kind of up and down. But right now, I'm just enjoying them a lot. Yeah. So it's kind of them and they're trying, you know, we've been just sort of talking about how, you know, we all need help. And they're old enough now. To like, participate, you know, their babies, like, they don't need to be taken care of every single second of every day. And, you know, and that we're all participating in this house in this life. And we have to, like, act politely toward each other. And you know, not have to be asked seven times to put on your shoes or to go to bed or to like, it's just it's time for that all to stop now. Yeah. I can relate to that so much. Yeah. And put in the laundry away. And, you know, it's just yeah. And like we took Jovi to soccer game this morning and left to home alone. Yep. And I was just like, one. And Scott was like, He's 14. He's fine. He'll wake up, make his breakfast. He knows where we're going. You know, back in two hours. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, I guess I was babysitting when I was 12. Yeah, right. Yeah. You know, so I think they're like, the kids are kind of younger now too. Yeah. I mean, little group and this little school. Very thankful for. Yeah. I told you that I I left home and went to college when I was 16. I did. And, and he's like, that doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh, man, I was like, You know what, you are exactly correct. That was not a very good. I know, he said, Where was it? And I was like, it's it was in New York. It was in in Greenwich Village in New York. And he was like, you were living in New York when you were 16 That doesn't sound like a very good idea. Oh. And I was like, Yeah, you know why? Because then I told him I sneak out of the house and take the bus into New York. I was like, you don't have to do that you like you're like I'm gonna go to a concert dad gets on the phone with his manager. You know, obviously if you guys have a box you know, I You really don't have any reason to get out of the house. Yeah. on that, but I can't let you go without mentioning. You've mentioned Scott a few times and his connection to music, that he's the bass player for Weezer, and full disclosure, I'm a massive what he's a fan. I've got my little ways of paying for the fair club. And I've seen him sing them twice. They've come to Australia a couple of times, but my, I've got to share with you my funniest Weezer story was when they first came out, I think it was 96 or 97. And I just started going out with, like, my husband, obviously, we weren't married then. And we were playing in Adelaide, which is five hours drive from here. And I said to him, I really want to go see this band. And my favorite band, like this sweater song was out. It was blue Album Era. And he said, Ah, you know, if they're big band, they'll they'll come back again soon, you know, we'll go next time, you know. Anyway, 14 years later, I waited 14 years to see them play in Melbourne, and I'm lying. Now I just got to the same thing that they hadn't been to us ever wanted to go so badly. And it was actually, like, one of the times that he was like, you know, I'd like to stay here a little longer. Like, there's some beach. That's supposed to be like, really cool. Is this Sydney? Or like Bondi Beach in Sydney? Maybe? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. And he's like, I just want to go like, stay there for apps like do, please. You know, but it was like, too long of a flight for tea at that time. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. So I was gonna say I saw on your socials that he went on the last tour. With the band. Yeah. It's so great to juvie. Yeah, and it's perfect. Kind of for now. You know, like, I can go and fly to the shows in like, major cities that we want to see. Or, like, I have my own career. I've taken two kids on tour. Bus Tour, like three times, like, months of living on a bus. As just like, I'm gonna, like put out a shingle and start telling fortunes or something like, I I can't do this anymore. You've done the hard work. Laughing like, you've been less schlepping now because they're old. But the schlepping of the baby crap. Yeah, yes. It's like That's the worst part. Yeah, that's why I hate the beach. Yeah, there's so much stuff. There is so much stuff. Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, then like, you know, you've to date the car seat. The car Student Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's so much to consider last you are new mothers out there. That's something I don't miss. I'll tell you. Neither, but then, you know, I look at the baby pictures. And I go. I'm a monster. About these angels. Yeah. Look, I'll thank you so much for coming on. Julian. It's been such a pleasure chatting with you. And you too, and we'd be happy to be in touch again. Oh, thank you. And just before you go, do you want to share is it you've got to your books coming out my book, Behold, the monster is coming out another thing next July. Um, and there is also a documentary called confronting a serial killer that's streaming on most major networks right now. That's about me. Like it's limited, you know, five one hour episodes directed by Joe burrow injure and it's just about my relationship with Sam and and solving some of the cases. And super excited for the book. I'll be around talking a lot about crime. And strangely enough, you know, even moms have interests beyond macaroni collages Yes. We were true crime fans. Um, we're just like this part is relaxing. Are you getting turned on the DOM or documentary? You know, my website, Julian lauren.com. You can find everything there. I'm on Instagram actually and Lauren I'm on Tik Tok. Don't even ask. They talked me into it. It's kind of fun. It's really fun. Yeah, I haven't gotten you don't you have to do this mom. Like you have to do this. Or you're just not anything. Get with the time. Not going anywhere. Mom's ticked off. Anyway, good. Just Julie and lauren.com. Everything's there and preorder the books. Great. Yay. Thank you so much, and all the best and yeah, I'd love to chat again one day and yeah, keep doing what you're doing and and say hi to Scott for me. Yes, and go see Weezer. It's great. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Bianca Richardson Australian illustrator, watercolourist and graphic designer S1 Ep22 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Bianca Richardson is an illustrator, watercolour artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier South Australia and mum of 2. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business, creating websites, logos and branding for clients, Bianca has maintained her own art practice, her favourite mediums being watercolour, ink and pencils as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog "Just Draw More Bianca" was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself, to just keep drawing! Her fun spark and humour shines through to this day with this name remaining as her online identity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety** Connect with Bianca on her website and instagram Follow along with The Portrait Project Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity for day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram and to get in touch with the podcast. All music used on this podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respect to the relationship that traditional owners have with this land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. My guest today is Bianca Richardson. Bianca is an illustrator, watercolor artist and graphic designer from Mount Gambier, South Australia and a mom of two. Bianca studied graphic design and made this her core business creating websites logos and branding for her clients. Bianca has maintained her own art practice over the years, her favorite mediums being watercolor, ink, and paint shows as well as using her iPad Pro. Her relaxed, illustrative style has garnered attention from her corporate clients in recent years. Her blog, just draw more Bianca was born in 2010 as a message and reminder to herself to just keep drawing her fun spark and humor shines through to this day, with this name remaining as her online identity. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast. Bianca Richardson. Thank you so much for coming on, Bianca. Thanks for having me, Alison. It's a pleasure. You're an illustrator and a graphic designer. How did you first get into that sort of creativity? When I was in high school, I guess I always loved drawing illustrating, and I, you know, ideally, I think I wanted to always be an illustrator, but I found that graphic design was the career I could follow up with those kinds of skills, and then maybe potentially look at illustration later on like I am. Now. I studied multimedia. So that was like a mix of like websites and a bit of animation and video and design work as well. So that's fell into that kind of career path. Like I had a few mentors in that field that, you know, inspired me and I took that on. And I've loved it, like graphic design has been great. But I've always had that urge to draw, like, I really enjoy drawing, I get a lot of satisfaction out of people enjoying my drawing. And I think the big turning point was in 2010 I started a blog just to keep myself going it was like a Blogspot blog just drove all the anchor I called it just to keep myself going. They had there's a project called illustration Friday that every Friday they'll bring out a topic and you draw anything based on that topic it was a really cool community. So I got into I get into that and then just sort of snowballed from it like I had I sort of have graphic design and separate am I drawing blog was separate two separate things. And then I think more so about four or five years ago clients started seeing my drawing work and wanting that included in the designers that kind of merged more there so slowly happened like it was a real slow burn it still isn't slaving but people wanting my art more than my graphic design lately is that that's that's really cool. Yeah. Touching on your the name that you that you give yourself just your more Bianca is that sort of like a message to yourself like I can't let it go now. I love it. Like I kept thinking I'll change my name because gone to my own name, but I'm like, I just love this. It's just so honest. Like that's what it was for me in 2010. And it still is now so just drum all the anchor. Did that sort of tie into any particular period in your life? Where was it around being a mum or? Yeah, was there any trigger for that that you you wanted to encourage yourself to draw more? No, it was pretty kids. My husband was mad about triathlons and Ironman at the time. So we started to blogs he was because because everyone kept asking us like how is Toby going with this training? So I had a blog how is Toby going? And it's brilliant. That's true. We go let's just check that little life stock of personality and humor like that, that interests me like I'm very I'm not. I'm not clean cut professional. Or be dork. I love that. I'm sure they'd be Yeah, there'd be plenty of people out there. You know that want you services that would be the same that bit of quirkiness that you know bit of fun and yeah, yeah, so really, yeah. relate to a lot of people I think what sort of mediums do you work in with you? I like good. pencils like regular pencils. Ink I love kind of ink. I love watercolor. More so the last few years I've really gotten into using procreate on my iPad. Like it's it's been convenient because I can take it anywhere. And it's lit up so I can do it at night. Once the kids go to bed. I can sit on the couch and coloring I can it's yeah, it's been really good for my lifestyle at the moment. I still like hand drawn with I love to actually draw on paper first and then transfer it across the iPad. And then color so it's a meet it's mixed radio, I guess is the classic term for let's launch it and talk about your family then you mentioned you you're able to do your procreate when the kids are in bed. How many children do you have? So I have two kids. I've got an eight year old daughter and a two and a half year old son. So bit of a gap between the two. I don't sleep that great. I don't really do that much work at night. But I like the idea of it. I think I use my iPad more driving around town for a daytime nap with my son out of pocket around the lake and get it out and do some coloring in. Yeah. My siblings were all five to six years apart. And like, I'm someone that needs my own space a lot. So I found like, I love the time my kids but I could my brain would explode if I had kids too close. I think I just I really Yeah, I I need my own time and I need sleep to be a better person. So yeah, please to the beautiful kids. I love them. It's a perfect fit for me. Yeah, good. Yeah. No sleep sleeps good sleeps important. So were you able to keep up with that after the birth of your first child? I was a bit of an idiot when I was lecturing at TAFE when I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was doing a semester so I decided to do one term before I had her and a term after thinking well, I'll be able to balance this out. I've done it. There's only six hours a week but my gosh, I went back when she was five or six weeks old. Three hour sessions and it was so hard like you know you breastfeeding so it's painful words your brain you have no brain it's just the mashed potato like it was just it was madness but in my head I had this idea that I've read all the books I'm at a pretty stable point in my life I'll be I'll be able to do all this and yeah, it was a massive Eye Opener it's one of those things you can't you can't really prepare yourself for Isn't it like like I said you can read the books but when you're actually in it, it's like it no one can even warn you about it because you take relief those books are a waste of time what those are very good burst skills or something. I had all these ideas like I'll take my stressful when I would take all these little things like I just lost. After you did that the summit stir when you returned back to TAFE were you sort of were you working on your own art as well at that time, or just focusing on your teaching? I did, I actually produced the calendar, like I was doing little desktop calendars. So I've managed to she was born in September, so I managed to get one out for Christmas time, which was pretty amazing. I had her laying on the floor in the office. I tried to do a little bit so I just think it helped my brain even though coming back from having a kid or having both times to get a computer and like, I don't know what to do anything anymore. Like, you know what form I can't remember anything like it takes me way longer than what it should it's just like becoming a new person again, it's really it's a really weird feeling. Just feel brand new. So did you run it? Sort of important then to get back into doing stuff for yourself? Was that something that that you wanted to do? You were focusing on? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I guess growing up like I drew that was my thing, just my time out my relaxing thing to do. So I need it in my life. Like I find if I don't even just a little quick sketching session. It's just something to get out. If I really feel wound up or don't move away. I need I need to use it like it's it's just my my time. And as clearly that my daughter is quite creative. So when she was young, she was always wanting to do stuff with me would collaborate and paint paper and collage stuff. And so fun. And like even now, Ultra, I'll be doing a client job. Normally, I've left it out on the table, and she'll come by and draw a picture next to me. Just this is excellent. Oh, God. Actually, I think I saw that on Instagram the other day that you posted something you're working on. And then there was your daughter's picture. That's wonderful, isn't it? And it's like she's seeking it out from you. It's like you're not. I mean, I know you would do it. But you're not saying Come on, come and do this. It's like she's actually you know, she's the one instigating it. So that's really lovely. Yeah. What about sorry, God. But I was glad to have a creative kid. Yeah. What about your other little one? Hey, likes to join in. So we'll get the day we painted baubles for the Christmas tree. We do a lot of bits and pieces. But I remember a few a few months ago my daughter had gone to the dentist has had a procedure coming up she was nervous about so she ended up drawing a picture of her mouth that was open with teeth and other dentists instruments just for her to cope with it. Oh, no, that was really clever way about using art to deal with feelings. And then my son comes along and he liked it it was a dental instruments that she designed just you know, his mouth just seemed great. But how mature is that though? Like she's got a real gift, hasn't she? That's what she does. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's pretty special to you what is your day to day sort of art life or artwork? Clients? How does that sort of look today? As you as you move through each day, I majority of my work at the moment is my design work. I have a couple of days of daycare. So that was really good. I was really funny about daycare. My first I just found I was scared of the germs. I was scared of everything. So she did family daycare this time around. I was working in that and it was just mental because I still have to do school pickup. So there was like I had to have a nap by certain time to get working. And it was very, very, very, just it was silly, but I've had my son in daycare or childcare this year, and it's for two days. Wagan it's been so helpful. Like, even though today I left him and he's upset, which is sucky, but it just helps. I don't know like I've got a block of time now to work. So I do majority graphic design work. I still try and fit in my illustrations at the moment, the Christmas coming up and doing a lot of help home portrait commissions. That's my little outlet, the art is good. And I get enough satisfaction by doing people's memories at the moment that I've built. I've got a fix in my illustration fix going on. Yeah, I got like some other projects in line with April, Hague set up this portrait project that I'm part of, for the next six months with a group of like, 10 other women and I just signed up to that I thought, you know, I need just good to learn new things and meet new people. And yeah, out of my comfort zone. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, I was actually chatting to Julia, yesterday, we recorded her podcast, and she was telling me about it. And I thought that sounds amazing. Because it's gonna be, it's gonna be incredible for people like Julia said, she doesn't paint portrait, so it's going to be challenging for her put her out of her comfort zone. And it's okay, it's going to be amazing to see everyone's different styles and everyone's take everybody's take on on everybody else as well. But I did put out to receive how you're gonna feel about having your head out in the world. Yeah. That's a bit confronting, sort of, do you feel better? Are you okay with that? I do. I'm very, I wasn't very self conscious person. I guess I'm working on it. So I'm trying to be like, oh, like I'm choosing I think, to do myself. So it'd be an exploration of myself. So I can just extract as I want. Yeah, I'm looking like you might look like nothing. Someone completely did. The back of my head. Hey, that's cool. Yeah, there you go. We find it's really it's really out of the comfort zone. But there's no undo button when I'm, I don't just do a painting. So it's gonna be fun. That's really exciting. It was amazing models in the group to like, it's yeah, you're working alongside some really, really talented people. So there's heaps to learn? Yeah. Do you get daunted at all by that? Or do you just straight out see it as just an email? I was like, I went and spoke to Juliana, like, I don't know, like, I'm not an artist. I felt like she was like your dig? For me, and I'm like, what about that to lose? Like, she's asked me, I'm just like, yeah, that's, you know, I've always just downplaying myself, I was like, Oh, you just do you know, but I enjoy that that sort of is a fine artists all look good for you. I'm, that's, I'm really pleased you're doing it. Because like, personally, I like I love your style of drawing. And I think that's the thing with that, like, there's so many different styles and so many different ways of representing things. And like, this is something I'm learning to, as I go go through this project, just sit, you can do whatever you want. You know, like, there's no, there's no limits on stuff. And it's so liberating and, and amazing. So yeah, no, I'm glad you're doing it. Like I like to say I can't wait to see everybody's it's gonna be awesome. Because I do follow you on Instagram, I see the houses pop up. When someone gives you a photo of a house, it's obviously special to them. Do you sort of take that take that on board? You know, when you're, when you're illustrating? Does that sort of seep into you a bit that emotion and the connection? Yeah, absolutely. And I try and ask them things that make that home the home. Like, if you're taking a photo that's recent, it won't have things that they you know, the special flower or there was a special chair at the front or you know, there's a bird that regularly visits like all those things. Make it the home. Yeah, so I'm doing now at the moment, there's heaps of like, I'm actually doing one that's the 70s home in Queensland. So they're going back over old photos and doing the home back in the day and it's really cool. I just, I love hearing people's memories. Like I don't know, I really it's fulfilling so I'm, yeah, I'm gonna really focus next year on pushing it a bit more on getting a website that's up just years kind of fell in my lap at the moment. We're not feeling like I've worked for it, but it's like I haven't quite streamlined yet, but I will focus on that next year. Yeah, really? really love it like a lot of sense that satisfaction out of it. Yeah, absolutely, I can totally relate to that. I think it's it's really special and then I guess the people couldn't appreciate that the amount of work that's gone in not just the the physical drawing of the work but you know the effort that you've put into it to find out these other details and yeah, it's really special. Yeah, make sure no one requests horses in this table over this just have to like swishing that's really cool Do you have family around you in the mail? Like, do you have support, you know, down at Millison, or, you know, people around you that can can help you when you, you're trying to get work done. And, you know, you just need the kids out to be here. My family, my parents are still in Millison. And my in laws live in medical area, and my sister lives in the area. So I call on all them a lot. And lately, I've got a lot to just because it's coming close to the deadline time for the year. But they're all really helpful. But I'm very, very lucky to have a support network like I do. And I've got a good relationship with my mom and sister that I you know, I asked them everything, anything, you know, it's, it's good, it's really helpful. And my sister actually, she had her first child 13 days after I had my second and we've like, got, you know what it's like we forget everything about having a baby, that she's been really helpful, which is actually a good I didn't have a mother's group again, the second time around, she was a good friendship for me to have because you just become lost again, like you're going back. You're my other friends have all had their second kid or whatever, or no kids and they're just, you know, at that level, we're all going back to newborn land. They're having my sister was so helpful. Celia, she's still reminds me of things. I just overlooked, I guess. That's about 10 of us, we still catch up where we can like they really were just good people. You're like me because I would wrap up to a mother's group. And I had to go to TAFE after the lecture, so I'd be all dressed up ready to go to TAFE which is like you just looked like you had your life so together like that's funny that's heavy and honestly I just shit scared like what am I doing? What am I do we have perception of me or these new mom who just had a life all sorted and was able to like rocked going to the work and it was not like that. That perceptions and interesting thing, isn't it? It's it's just you see this little snippet of someone and you think you've, you've got it all worked out. Because you only told me like a year or so ago. What that is so funny. So like, if what do you think that's the same with social media, like people say people's posts, and think, oh, wow, their life must be perfect. They look like they've got their life together. Yeah. Me when I'm feeling not great. I can't handle it. I have to go on big following moments. I just can't like I know. I know that. It's all a glossy highlight reel. But just when you're not feeling level, it's not a good thing. Oh, yeah. I can relate to that. Yeah, it's gonna be more. Hey, people have to be more real, like. Yeah, I totally agree with that. It's like, it's like, what? What's the words? Like? It's like, Who are you trying to impress? Why do you think you have to do this? Why do you think you can be honest, and, you know, just show life as it is. And we all can go? Yeah, we agree with that. You know, it's weird. It's very odd these days anyway, because people were trying to get the most likes, so comments, so you know, views it's all about that now. It's very it's a very weird place. Like it's not just, I'm just here doing my thing. But most artists I follow are just like, I'm just gonna keep posting as I do. And it's awesome because their work is just wicked and it's normal. It's not trying to get it's not trying to you know, be viral out there for that little minute of fame like it's Yeah, download my group I think yeah, it's very genuine. Like yeah, yeah. Creating like you're not always it's not like you can have something to show every week or twice a week like they sort of want you to do is ridiculous like, you know at the moment all these homes I can't show you because their Christmas presents. Yeah have upgraded stolen I can't show because they you know early days of like some really cool stuff out because I have nothing really to show, but I'm just, you know, do what I can. Oh, yeah, I think that's a lot of pressure, I think that some people probably have to put on themselves to just be noticed. And yeah, everyone works in peaks and troughs, you'll have your moment. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? It's like some days and eight when, like, you know, goes hand in hand with your creativity, I suppose. Like, I mean, different for your situation where you actually got to work, you're doing a job. It's like, some days you would go, I don't want to do this today. I don't feel in the headspace. There's nothing creatively coming out of me. What do you do then on those days when when you do have a like a deadline? How does that sort of work? Created deadlines? Or crap? Oh, okay. Well, go go graphic designs. You just go play out for my first job out of study was working at a local magazine. So let to work really quickly. So even if i I hate being rushed, I you know, if someone says to me a sap that was like, serious, like, just, it's the worst thing to do, because you just, I can't do it quickly. But I hate that pressure. But I can do this. I just think I can do it. But you just don't get the best result. Because you can't have it all. You can't have the best product ASAP. So I still I get it done. I meet deadlines. I just might not be as satisfied as I could be. You've got to think about it a bit more. But with my permission deadlines, I've I've padded them out so much. Because you know like when you're a parent, your life's not just about you. It's about like to other people in the family, your husband as well. So it's up to you know, if one of them falls sick, that throws the whole balance out of my life, because that's what it is. So I've had it out heaps of time in between everything to make sure I can still reach the printer deadline for Christmas. Yeah. Yeah. It's just yeah, you have to plan because I don't know like, so far so good. We're all healthy. But I'm always worried about sending him into Chipotle, like, oh, my gosh we're just getting tired, like the weekends are getting a bit busier. And I think last week, he just started slowly getting a bit more sad than today actually cried as I was leaving, not usually it's a bit after I leave. I know. I'll check soon on the app, and he'll be playing and hopefully okay, but yeah, it's it's hard to clear that headspace to get to work. And I find that's the hardest part, I'll feel in a slump, you'll get a copy. And then I might just try and ease into it. Like I just I lose productivity because I feel trapped for doing it. But yeah, that that's leading into the sort of mum guilt topic. How do you feel about mum guilt? Oh, it is real. It is definitely, I observe it a lot with stuff. People around me say about others to like, Oh, she's doing this blah, blah. And it's like, maybe she needs to do that. Like, I used to probably be the same in thinking that and it's taught me a lot that that might be her out a lot that she needs just to feel like a human and be a better mom. So it's been a lot lots of work to pick up on your own, like, where you're being critical of others, where you're like, oh, that's maybe I'm envious of that. Or, you know, I don't really know her story, but it's because they're like, We can't do anything. So you can spend too much time with kids and not and not do anything for yourself. You can spend too much on yourself and nothing for your kids like it's it's a losing battle. to juggle isn't it? It's a constant juggle. That is, I guess that ties into the identity topic that I that I talked about, too is that you do have to have something for yourself that you're going you do. And I do like I think I worked out like I my time out when I was younger was drawing and just I was a pretty like hit in the clouds kind of kid I must always had like a little bit of anxiety. So I'll draw and chill out. Until once I became a parent and had a few other triggers in my life and I wasn't drawing as much I realized, Oh, I do carry anxiety. I just have to find my way of dealing with it because I was guest I was always able to do it myself before without having a distraction of a kid. So to me it's just a like a peaceful, peaceful place to go like I you know, I've had a pretty you know, come by in life but it just it's my little. I overthink I'm a big worrier. Like, you know, I'm petrified of my kids getting sick. I know. It's not a big deal, but for me taking my son to childcare is a sign that I can do it. So I How much of both like, yes, you can do these? Like, you know, like, there's germs, but there's not always germs. You know? Yeah, it's all those things to make me get over my fears. Yeah, I think you know, and like drawing, I don't think you could, you know, people who don't feel creative understand, but we need these don't worry, like it's just a little, you know, you need that time to just, yeah, it's good. It's like you've got, you've got yourself medicated, you know, this is your therapy to work through, you know, like you said, you know, your life, your life's great, you know, but whatever goes on between the ears is like, you have to deal with that in some way. It might not be affecting, you know, what's going on outside, in your home, everything's going great. But you've still got to sort this out for yourself. So yeah, using that as your therapy, to sort of, to give yourself a break to work through things, and then you come back fresh and ready to go again, you know, for the onslaught. Yeah. I was thinking, my major feeling sometimes of working, and art and kids. Feeling is frustration. And that's how we're thinking about it. Like, I think I was, because I get ideas and I want to act on them. Like, I'm not gonna go do this thing. You can have a whole weekend of just having an art retreat, frickin awesome. But I could ask and get that and get the sitter's and do it. But at the moment, I don't feel like I'm ready to do it. But yeah, this is finally I'm starting to do something like oh, you know, someone needs you know, it's just that flow. You don't quite get that stage as much anymore. But it's that point in my life. And I know that things change. And they'll be time and the kids don't want to talk to me for a week so we to call for me so my dad always said to me, like don't wish your life away because when we're second was a newborn. I was just like, let's just get 12 weeks. I know the first four weeks the hardest. I've countdown like eight weeks. Yeah, we're nearly there over halfway. Like, I was kind of, I was kind of wishing it away. Then I looked at my daughter because she was in reception at the time. And I'd look at it and like she has grown so much in this face. Like oh, here I am wishing this time away because I'm like, This is so hard. I just feel like a zombie then I look at her and I'm like she's changed so much like just slow down. So now I'm sort of got that you know, it's all phase I can I break it down to this is what it is like, I still am frustrated quite a lot, but I just have to Yeah. Isn't it it's like Yeah, yeah, it's I don't know how we do it. Honestly. It's just a It's screwing with your head every single day. Yeah. Sad you how you carry their sadness that you carry. Everything that's really it's really intense. Sometimes. You have a good run, you're like this is great. This is good. Yeah, to just get up and to go somewhere would be such a privilege. Like you know, I can't I get I think it was employment, that's for sure. Like my husband wanders while we get out when the dishwasher has been stacked so shapely because in the morning, then I have to then reclaim them. And I'm like, Well, this is time like in the morning. It's just like, bing bing, bing, bing. Have you brushed your teeth? You don't need any like, it's just you just the robot. I try like I try and get up earlier. I still get woken up for the night so I maximize my sleep like yeah, that's my that's what I need. Yeah, it's just it's a different life. Like as soon as you become a mom, it's just I don't know like it's a massive, massive shift in your life. You're so responsible for other people and still yourself you know, because you don't want to let yourself go when you have kids. I love how you put that I love seeing the kids be close to their family because I grew up like one side of my family's Italians is a quite a big family caught up all the time like Sunday lunches every Sunday. It was you know they did my grandparents, those family that were important to them. So yeah, I've always grown up with lots of cousins and the other side to like always close cousins as well. There had heaps of cousins and my poor kids. They've got one cousin he might give you because the rest of the Victoria is still walk away FaceTime, but it's you know, I was so grateful for the dynamic they get they get to the grandparents here at least which is good because it helps. I don't know, it's family and friends are different. It's yeah, they're very lucky. Yeah, yeah. And it's lovely to see your own parents, as grandparents. I love that. Watching my dad with my kids and thinking oh, he would have told me off for that but he's laughing Do your children influence your work at all? Yeah, they do. So when my eldest, I would always do a lot of things based on what she was learning. So I observed her in the, in the yard and she'd be wearing her like hooded towels and kids were just speaking on the painted stick. Like, we were painting the sticks. And she was like a little saucer. And it made me laugh so much. If you're a picture of her, then I'd draw a picture of her. And that point of time, we like all the questions you'd ask like, little picture, there's always speech bubbles, like we're going to Bunnings and all the random stuff. I always say. I'll just call it old memories for me. So I kind of I'm not very good at their photo albums. I've got them but I don't I find during a memory for me makes it more fun. So I'm actually my little nieces and nephews, etc. I've been drawing them at this point in their life for their birthdays. Oh, that's a little like keepsake of time for them. Yeah, that's so special. Yeah. So hope I've been, I would have to get a bit better at making people look like the people will be more I can see your real future for that. If you put that out into the world. There'll be so many people that would would pay for that for their kid. Yeah. Ah. Yeah, I find it hard because I cannot unless I know the person to helps me work out how to draw them. I find it tricky. Like I did my brother recently. And I found that hard, and he's someone that should really know how to draw. But I think about the life was pretty close. Yeah, I find that Yeah. I was like a certain kind of character. I draw like really, like long, tall, you know, big round heads. So I've got off sort of, you know, keep working on my character developments. Practicing just drawable. Do your children I mean, your daughter, does she? How does she feel about seeing yourself in those drawings? Is she get super excited? And yeah, she laughs Yeah. He or she regularly draws family pictures like and, you know, she goes through and changes their hair every year. She's a certain hairstyle. She'll draw characters like her or her makeup. She does. Yeah, it's a sort of a self. Kind of funny word. You know, that is like an exploration of yourself that you'll hear that point in time with who you are. So yeah, I think she doesn't find it embarrassing at the moment. So that's good. Yeah. That journey with a boyfriend and Darcy moon. Yeah. loves that. He loves seeing that too. Like he, he loves the art side of things like seeing the family pointing everyone out. And yeah, yeah. So hopefully I've just I'm not giving him a nod to just saying I got to be creative. So yeah, let's see, just find that see what happens. So I was doing my design work. I don't know if you've seen it, but it's all very, like, clean, you know, as design is like, clean vektory style. And I had a client, male at the old jail. And she's, I was doing their branding. And then she goes to me at one point, she's like, Oh, we want to have an illustrated map down of the jail and like, okay, cool. But I kept the first few designs I was doing was just much you know, I was doing it very graphic designer, like straight lines. Is that like the ad and make it more like you're like, we love it, but we want it to be like your style. Yeah. Okay, so that make it a little bit looser, which is like no, no, no, like, oh, you watercolor stuff you do on Instagram. We love that. So next minute, I just did inky watercolor. And it's exactly what she wanted. So she sort of made me realize that it doesn't have to be two separate entities anymore. Like it's not just design and illustration that can combine. It was realized really thankful to that because I just kept sort of thinking I'll just keep drawing for my own fun. And it's not going to cross over but majority of my work now They were going off. They want the illustrative aspect in their design. So, yes, she was the defining moment, that's for sure. I think it was about four or five years ago. And grateful because he sort of pushed me. Yeah. And a lot push because males are so odd, which is awesome. Oh, yeah. She kept she kept prodding, like, Oh, like this, you know, I like to try to wake up and I'm like, yeah, right, like people want this as cool. I have a project that I can't really say much about yet. Which is very exciting, because it's something will be super interesting, a massive learning curve for me. And yeah, I'm excited about doing it and lots of fun work. So that's happening next year, I was in the early early stages of planning now, I always have side projects going on, because that's a sound my brain rolls. Like, plans one day to do some project about the buildings. I love drawing as well. So I'm just slowly working out a project plan on that and how to attack that in the future. But I just keep that to the side, just slowly chipping away while I do my design work. Excellent. And always, always drawing. Just draw more Bianca. And every time I write that I have a little I have a little moment of like, oh, you know, yes, I can't let it go. I was like, Oh, I changed it to be accurate, just boring. But I just, I can't let go of that because it's exactly how I talk and how I've talked to myself like it's, it's me, so it makes me laugh. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us at the link in the show notes. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Julia Reader South Australian water colour and acrylic artist and art educator S1 Ep21 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Julia Reader is a watercolour and acrylic artist, an art educator from Mount Gambier South Australia, and a mum of one. Coming from a background in graphic design, Julia is a firm believer in following your heart, being open to new opportunities and that everything happens at the right time. We chat about how her perfectionist trait stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues, letting go of your expectations, not just in art but in life, and allowing mums feel all the feelings they are experiencing, good and bad, without judgement. **This episode contains discussion around infertility, post natal depression and panic attacks** Connect with Julia on her website and instagram Julia's December Workshop details Follow along with The Portrait Project here Connect with the podcast here - https://www.instagram.com/art of being a mum_podcast/ Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo - https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=pTHGHD20TWe08KDHtSWFjg&nd=1 When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health and how children manifest in their heart. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and a link to find the podcast on Instagram. Following music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone dig people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today is Julia reader. Julia is a watercolor and acrylic artist, graphic designer and art educator from Mount Gambier, South Australia, and a mom of one. Julia is a firm believer in following your heart being open to new opportunities, and that everything happens at the right time. We chat today about how her perfectionist traits stifled her creativity, how she used her art as a therapy tool to work through her control issues. Letting go of your expectations, not just in art, but in life, and allowing mums to feel all the feelings they're experiencing good and bad without judgment. This episode contains discussions around infertility, postnatal depression and panic attacks. Today, I'd love to welcome to the podcast Julia reader. Thanks so much for coming on, Julia. Thanks for having me, Allison. Yeah, it's a pleasure. Another hometown assets, which I'm really excited to chat to you. You you're a painter, and do drawing as well. What what sort of mediums do you work with mainly? So I primarily work with watercolor? I have been dabbling in a bit of acrylic. They're the main things that I use. Yeah. Obviously, watercolor for most, I think that's probably what I'm probably most known for. But yeah, like, I really love acrylic, too, because it's sort of like the polar opposite to watercolor, you can paint over things if you stuff them up. But with watercolor, it's not so much the same. So in that respect there, like almost two completely different ways of working. And I like to challenge myself sort of at both ends of the spectrum. Yeah, right. So how did you first get into painting? That's a really good question. I teach watercolor classes. And I say to people that I can never actually remember the first day, or the first time that I picked up a paintbrush with watercolor and started painting. Yeah, I do remember doing a like a little watercolor painting for an exhibition. And I was invited to be part of an exhibition for a local group called the soul sisters collective, which is actually a group that I'm now a part of. But I yeah, I remember doing this little watercolor painting, I remember thinking that it was absolutely terrible. But it was what I did. And I was willing to frame it and put it up on the wall. And then there was probably like, a few years after that, that I didn't touch anything watercolor related. And then yeah, somehow I fell back into it. And I really have no idea how it started. I'd like I can't even tell you whether I was at home or sitting at my office. But it was just something that really just evolved very naturally. You know, there was a lot of practicing a lot of watching YouTube, because I am self taught. So there was just really lots of watching videos, looking at how people used it. And then from there it was, I guess. Consistency is what I always say is like, it's the game changer for I think anything if we're consistent with something, then we will see the results. But yeah, it was just a case of yeah, just painting, you know, you might want to make just once a week and then as I started to sort of see an improvement and maybe had a little bit more time. I would paint a couple of times a week and then there was a couple of points where I was doing like a painting a day. And I think I think I started doing that when Jack was about Eating. No, he wasn't he, he was only 10 months old. And I looked back on it. And I just think like, that was just such a crazy thing for me to commit to. Actually, it was actually not a painting a day, it was a project called the 100 Day project. So it was 100 days of painting. And obviously, I didn't do it over 100 days, it probably went to like 150 days, I did 100 paintings. And I think I bombed out at about 75 with Jack, because it was just too much. And I was starting to get to a point where I was really not enjoying it as much. Because there was a lot of pressure for me to sort of put something out on my social media. But yeah, yeah, just a natural level of illusion, evolution sorry, where I just went from not really touching it to wanting to play paint with it all the time. Developing a really a real love for it. And I think that's just sort of where it's that love has led me to where I am today with watercolor in particular. Yeah. So you said what's kind of happening at the moment with you with the acrylics, you sort of discovered this new thing? And you're sort of learning and similar kind of, sort of pricing? So yeah, I think I mean, look, I've still got a huge amount to learn with watercolor like, I would never like, yeah, I guess I know that I've got so much to develop as far as watercolor goes, it's such a technical medium. But yeah, I found acrylic and acrylics, almost like the sort of playful thing that I can do on the side that still creative. And if, if I don't do it very well, I can literally paint over it. And I can start again. And let me tell you, I have got canvases here that have got like about five or six paintings that have been painted over, you know, so many times, and like there's even paintings that people have purchased from me recently. And they would have no idea that there's actually three paintings that they've actually purchased. Maybe one day if I ever get rich and famous, which is really not the intention. Maybe maybe those people one day will discover that there's like all these hidden artworks underneath the one that they purchased maybe acrylic is I just find it like it's sort of like reversible. So like if I if I do something wrong, I can literally let it dry and come back and paint over that section. watercolors just not you can't do that. So yeah, it's a little bit strange, I guess that you've got like these two different mediums that that work in two completely different ways. Yeah, I'm drawn to how each of them work individually. And I think there's some days where I feel like I want that challenge of watercolor. And then there's days when I feel like I just need the ease of acrylic. So but yeah, look, acrylics, definitely something that I enjoy. So I can see that that's probably something that I'll continue to do. And for me, the moment is just working out how I bring the two together. So that my body of work looks, I guess cohesive, obviously, because they're two different things. They look different. I can achieve different things with each medium. So I can do things with perhaps acrylic that I couldn't do with watercolor. So they sort of take on a life of their own. Yeah, that mentally for me at the moment is just working out how I can sort of bring the three together. And when somebody sees that particular work, they can say, oh, yeah, that's Julia's work. Whereas at the moment, I feel like there's probably a bit of a divide. So I'm just going through that at the moment trying to work out how to sort of gel the two. So yeah, when you say that, I think yeah, you've got definitely a recognizable watercolor style, like I think, certainly anyone local. And I mean, I'm not in the art world at all. So I'm not sure how, yeah, white things spread, but certainly anyone in the mound that would see that would go oh, that's Julius, which is really cool. Then quite a few of my walk can't quite get it around for it. So I've got my little collection of things. And then I've got my kids stuff behind me, which is, you know, a mishmash of stuff, but I love and don't look, I'm not showing you the other side because that's absolutely love because I can't draw I can't do that. I love having those sort of things around me. They sort of inspire me creatively create creatively and the other the other things that I do so yeah, thanks. You for being awesome at supporting me so going back to the beginning, you talked about the soul sisters collective when you created your first watercolor. So what sort of creating or work were you doing at that stage? So back then, and I'm just going to pull a year out, I think that was about 2015. It could have been it could have been a year earlier or so. So back then, my creativity was my graphic design. Right, that was really all it was at that point. I wasn't painting. Like I wasn't, yeah, I just wasn't doing anything other than graphic design at that point. And I was actually quite at that point, I was really fulfilled in my graphic design career, which is something that I'm like, I'm still doing it today. It's still of my business. But I think, yeah, I was just in need of something else. And that's sort of when the painting started to happen. But yeah, back in 2015, it was just, I was a graphic designer, I was friends with a lot of the people that were in the soul sisters collective, which are all born at the time were all, like, sole traders working for themselves all female in, in our Gambia. So yeah, it was a real honor to be able to join their exhibition, because like, I was really quiet. sort of been aware of all of those people, because they were all sort of doing this business for themselves. And at that point in time, I never saw myself owning my own business. So yeah, it was really lovely to be able to join them. But like I was highly critical of the work that I put out. Obviously, I wasn't, I wouldn't have called myself a painter or anything at that point. I was literally just dabbling in this watercolor that I must have found somewhere because I can't even I don't even think I probably have the original watercolor that I was using on that particular painting. And yeah, just really highly critical of what I did. I've still got hanging on my wall here, so it can't be that bad. Yeah, at the time, I was just really honored to be a part of the exhibition. But I was also like, yeah, not not loving anything that I did at that point. So yeah. Sort of reaching back in your graphic design, how did you get into that? Was that something you've did at school, or you've always been sort of into that sort of stuff? Yeah, I've always been quite creative. Even as a child. I, I've always gravitated towards the arts. I remember having a science teacher who just used to tell me that I was not going to get anywhere with art. And I should just apply myself in his science lessons, because this is where it was at. I know, like, you know, as a kid, I think I when I say a kid, I was probably like, 1616 when he was saying this? Yeah, I always just, I just never wanted to apply myself in math, science or anything. And I really do believe that we've got like a brain for creativity. And we've got a brain for all those really sort of technical subjects. I really enjoyed English, I loved creative writing. So anything that had an element of creativity where I could explore, like, my ideas, and I could express myself in some way. Were the subjects that I was drawn to, in saying that I was never like, into drama or anything like that. But um, yeah, I was very much into art. I did art I did design, I had a very supportive design teacher. And when I first started design, like he really liked, fostered an interest in my work. And I think from there I think I always knew that I was going to be a graphic designer. I had a period where I thought I would be an architect. But yeah, I got into sort of my, my later years of secondary school and I knew that graphic design was where I was headed. I got to year 11 Sorry, year 12 And the workload was just like intense. And I decided to split my YouTube up over two years. So I could really focus on my design. And I can't remember what my final grade was in design that I think it was like nine out of 20 or something. There was some like, technical thing that stopped me from getting the 20. But anyway, doesn't really got moderated down because the state wasn't good. Yeah, that's right. And so from there, I actually studied through TAFE. And it was such a fantastic. It was such a fantastic way to learn because it was so hands on. And so I did my first year in Mount Gambia, I did my second year in Adelaide, and I lived with a couple of girls who one I'm still very good friends with today are actually friends with both of them today. But one, like our friendship has just continued on. And we both have very similar interests, even today. And we're all two of us are still graphic designers. The other isn't. But yeah, it was such a great experience. I lived with some people that were studying graphic design through university. And so I got to see how the two courses compared and I was just really happy with choosing that one. Because I think if I was sitting in a lecture theatre learning these things day in and day out, it would I would have lost interest I needed to like, see how it worked practically in a, like a specific setting. And I got to do that. So yeah, I still very much love graphic design. But I'm just understanding that there's so much more to what I can offer. Yeah, and yeah, I totally recommend graphic design to anyone out there is still I think it's still a fairly popular sort of choice for younger people. Yeah, that especially today, this always social media, and everyone's creating images for promotion. And these little, little, what do they call tiles? You know, on the Instagram? Oh, yeah. Like, it's Yeah, Canvas, definitely. Like, I think it's definitely got a place. And yeah, like just having the skills of graphic design is like really helpful for me, even in my art business, and being able to promote myself and keep sort of a consistent theme amongst my look and creating that brand. So there's like huge benefits to having that knowledge behind me. And I can see that it's probably something that I'll eat depending on, you know, how my career plays out. And, you know, I don't tie myself down to anything. I feel like my options are always open with what I could be. But I can see that that skill set that I've developed as a graphic designer will certainly carry through I think probably every job that I do. You've got that understanding of it is yeah, yeah, for sure. There's so much there's so much to it. It's such a broad, broad job. And every time people say to me, or what do you do? And it's like, oh, gosh, where do I start? Like, really varied? Which I love so much. Like, there's someone like me that felt like I can't I always thought to be good at art, you had to be able to draw something that looked like the thing you were drawing. That was my thing in my head. And because I couldn't do that. I thought I can't do it. But then when I I knew nothing about mediums, different texts, different. Whatever's paints, when I did that watercolor, I was like, Oh, well, you can do whatever you want. Like it just I just I had no boundaries, no barriers. It just became this amazing. I don't know, just even the way you got us to practice doing circles and learning. Like you said before, it's so technical, how different like amounts of water on your brush, create different things and just completely opened my eyes. I'd never looked at things that way. I didn't understand things. So I highly recommend it to anybody that doesn't know anything. I say joy because it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's, um, I think like, in most things in our lives, we probably like have a set of expectations on how we need to do that thing. and like, that includes everything from parenting down to like, I don't know how you hang your washing on the line. You know, like, we've got a set way we think things need to be done. And what I love about teaching watercolor is just giving people an opportunity to use creativity. And a lot of the times it's creativity that people didn't think they ever had. So I really believe that every person on this earth has got an element of creativity in them, I don't think we can survive if we don't. So, you know, it's just giving yourself permission to be able to, to use it. giving yourself time and also taking away the the expectation that you need to be good at it. Because it's unrealistic. So I think that if, if I had picked up watercolor on that first day that I did, and I expected to paint this amazing painting, and I didn't achieve it, I would never have picked it up again. But I gave myself some grace. And you know, whether I did that, I probably did it subconsciously, I probably didn't make the decision to go easy on yourself, Julia. But I just, I just went with almost like a childlike playful, you know, just go and see what it can do. And then, you know, I obviously enjoyed it. I didn't have I didn't feel like I failed. And then I could come back again and try again and then come back again and try again. And and then would you believe it? I've liked building this skill set, that's actually starting to make sense. And I'm getting a better understanding of the medium. So in the workshops, that's like, one of the first things I say is, and I had a workshop, like literally on Friday night, and I said to the girls there if if you have like any degree of OCD, like trying to like perfectionism control issues, watercolor watercolor will let you know, you'll, you'll get to a point where you just like the frustration will be there and it will test you. So like, you know what I was totally in that category. I was. Yeah, like, probably my, my need to control things was like, super highlighted when I when I had a newborn, because my control was, I couldn't control this little human. And, you know, it was months and months of me. You know, just trying to trying to get into trying to create a routine that fit in with me. And it all went terribly pear shaped like Christmas have must have been 2017 Duck was six months old. And like I literally had a meltdown on Christmas Day, because I think it was just I put such huge expectations on myself for that whole six months. And then Christmas day came and I knew that I had to be here and I had to be there and then had to fit in a sleep here. And I was very like, and I still I still am today. I'm still quite routine base. And like I think my son actually needs that sort of routine too. But certainly like that first six months was just a complete undoing. And I got to Christmas day and I just literally had actually call it a panic attack. When I look back now I really found it very hard to read. And my thoughts were like, I could not like line up. The first thing I should do the next thing to the next thing. And I just remember feeling like I was just losing my mind. And so Christmas Day was like a massive unraveling for me. And it also was the biggest highlight of I actually have to surrender, like and surrender was like the biggest word. It's probably the biggest word that I've adopted or a principle that I've adopted through my whole parenthood so Jack's only for now. And I'm still learning how to surrender like, I still I think I've I think I was like, almost forced to do it back at that six month point on Christmas Day. But then I still have these moments where I'm like, surrender Juliet. Like you can't control everything. You know, everything will happen as it's meant to. It's a trust. It's just having faith that it's all you You know, evolving as it's meant to. But yeah, but just going back to the board call workshops, the control. Yeah, it's definitely something that watercolor will highlight did a couple of like painting a day for I think I've done it like two or three months now, where I've just picked a month, and then I've painted something like maybe one particular subject, or I've just painted anything I want one day each month. And I did a lot of that because, yeah, I had this like perfectionist trait, which really stifled my creativity. And it was just really good to be able to commit to something and like, let everybody know that this was this thing that I was going to do. So I was being held accountable by people, because I literally would have people message me and say, Oh, hi, I didn't see your painting today. Which is great, because like, this is what I this is what I needed. Painting every day meant that I didn't actually have time to be perfect. Sometimes I only had five minutes. Yep, some days, I might have had a couple of hours. And so it was a really great way of like breaking that that thought pattern of you have to get this right, because I could I could see that that was an issue. And I think just flicking right back to that day that I had a meltdown. It was you know, it was highlighted to me back then that I had this tendency to want to get everything right and have everything work perfectly in this certain way. And so then, as I was becoming more and more aware of that, as I parented as I painted, I was putting myself in positions that I could really like challenge that way of thinking. And so these these months that I would paint every day really sort of reversed my thinking around that. And so now when I go and teach watercolor, it's the probably the main thing that I try and get across is, like, let go of your expectations. And like this is not just painting, I think this can just go right across the board. We we really are super hard on ourselves. And I think let me know, I'm talking about my experience here. But I have spoken to so many other mothers and we all fall in this trap of you know, we've just got to get it right. And you know, we need to have control. And I just don't think it's fair on ourselves. I don't think it's reasonable. And it's not fair on our children either. Because they're their own little people. And they're not supposed to be controlled to the nth degree like, so. Yeah, what a journey it's been. Let me tell you, it's like you created your own form of therapy. Like you worked out. Yeah, you needed to do you used your art as that, that tool? Yeah, that's quite incredible. I think, um, I think, like, I'm such a believer in, you know, people come into our lives as they're supposed to experiences come in, I think children come into our lives when they're supposed to. And, like, I've always had a real trust that I would be given the things that I need to get me through at the time. And painting, especially watercolor is like highly therapeutic. And I had a girl sitting next to me on Friday night. And she said I would pay to just come here and watch you put the paint on the paper. Because it's like she said I'm mesmerized by it. As and I've heard this by so many people and I even do this when I watch other people painting. So it's not just the people who have never seen watercolor be used before get like in a trance. Yeah, watching being painted. It's me watching and I know I've painted enough now to like, yeah, if I watch somebody painting, I can get really just really sucked in and just watch it. There's a huge therapeutic benefit to I'll just say watercolor because that's what I know. And it's it's also just like sort of that flowing sort of medium. So I think, yeah, certainly something that I've considered is like, actually studying art therapy, because I think, yeah, we're gonna die in an age where I think it's probably needed. Like, don't don't probably think it's needed. It's needed. So, yeah, yeah, you bring up about watching people, I love watching people on Instagram, I'll just watch people paint. Like, I love it so much. It's like, it started started off. I think it's an interesting to work out how people make things from not having any understanding of, of how people create art, and really, the processes. And then yeah, like, I love it, when people post their actual videos of them painting. It's like a, like a meditation, I suppose you just get lost in it. And it's just, it gives you something. It's just incredible. I don't quite know how to explain it. But I don't know. It's just a beautiful thing to witness. And then I'll like write a comment on someone's Oh, I love love watching you pay. And there'll be like, Oh, I wasn't sure if I should share it or not. You know, people feel that. I don't know that nervousness about putting it out there because I suppose they feel judged. I don't know if that's the right word. But there. Yeah, but that I don't think they realize how much people get out of it, you know, tiny, tiny little thing that they share, like 30 seconds or a minute or whatever. Yeah, it's awesome. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's definitely something that I've noticed anytime I paint, post anything live, like, on live, but you know, if I do like a time lapse of a painting or something, I can always guarantee that someone will say, I just loved watching that. And it might not be that they loved the actual painting or Yeah, the subject or whatever, they just love watching the paint go on the paper. So yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty special actually feel quite privileged to be able to one sort of have an understanding of watercolor, because it is something that takes me to time. And I'm also very privileged to be able to pass that on to people. And I just love the fact that I have people that come back, and come back and come back to these workshops. So if there was any sort of, if I needed any sign that I was sort of doing the right thing, it's just that people come back and they want to keep learning and, you know, putting themselves in a position where they can try this out so. With your teaching, did you find any sort of challenges in that? Or did you sort of jump into it like yet? I'm really, I want to share I don't have any sort of hang ups about, you know, being in front of a crowd? Like, did it come to you really naturally? Or did you have any sort of challenges? Um, I think like, probably just nervousness, but I think that would be pretty normal. Next, anyone? The actual teaching side of it was so just, I'll just take one step backwards. I'm an I'm one of these people that overthink everything. I am super analytical. So I can almost talk myself into something and out of something in the same flight thought, yeah, yeah. And so the way that the workshops came about was I think I might have put up a video of me planning something. And someone said, Oh, I'd love for you to teach me how to do that. And then I put up a story on Instagram that just said, is there anyone out there who would like to learn watercolor? And it was like one of those questions, yes or no? And then I got lots of yeses. Yeah. And literally, it all happened within like, a few hours. I think like, this is the beauty of like, when you when you when you sort of done something over and over again, like I've done, I can't count probably how many workshops I've done now. When you look back to like, what was the first like, when did you start doing this? And it's like, oh, it was this. It was just this really flippant decision to put up an Instagram story. And like, that's where it started. It wasn't over thought it wasn't something that I planned for months or years or anything like that. It was just this one really defining moment that was just very organic. Yep. And and it all started from there. And, like, yeah, I just love the fact that I'm here I am, like, a few years down the track still teaching these workshops, still getting people coming to my classes. And yeah, it was just this. Just this really, like, fleeting moment where I was almost like just this change in my direction. Yeah. Yeah. So grateful for that. Yeah. It sort of links in what you were saying before about, you know, believing that things happen at the right time, things will happen. Yeah, you know, it's like, you made that decision. And instantly, it was all opened up for you, because it was like, it's almost like when you manifest something, you know, that. Obviously, you hadn't thought about that for a while. But it's like, it was like, you're ready. It's gonna happen. Now, you know what I mean? It just off it went, it's like, yeah, I love that, too. And I think, you know, you just you follow the things that feel right and good. And I think a lot of that's intuition, which is something that I've, like, worked on for a long, long time. So like, I really do, try and listen to my gut. And I really do try and yeah, just just follow the things that really light me up. You know, I hopefully, like, whether I even listen back to this podcast, my own voice, I don't know. But if I do, I would love to be able to hear the excitement in my voice around watercolor. Because if I was talking about cooking, like it would be different, you wouldn't, you wouldn't pick it up. But I was like, really enjoying this thing. So I'm pretty sure if I could compare the two, you know, and it's that it's that excitement and that joy that comes through in the way you deliver something or the way you talk about it that? Like, they're the things that I want in my life. Yeah. And like I said to you at the start, I don't rule anything out. I don't know where I'll be in five or 10 years time, maybe I won't be teaching watercolor, but maybe I'll like, maybe I'll have an art school. Or maybe I'll be an art therapist, or I just always want to keep chasing the thing that lights me up. Because I think that's when you're really on path. That's when you're really doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing in this lifetime. So yeah, I'll just keep tracing. I love that. It's like you're so open to whatever can come in. And yeah, listening to your intuition and going yeah, actually, I feel like doing that. I'm gonna do that, you know? Yeah, that's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, don't get me wrong, there are days when my head definitely talked a lot and you still have to pay bills, Julio, and you can't do that. You know, it's a slow burn, I think if you just give yourself the the space to entertain the idea at least, then you've sort of like planted a seed and, and whether it grows into something or not, is probably just a matter of time so. So let's talk about Jack. So Jack, please board now. And you mentioned that when he was 10 months old, you made the decision to do your your picture your painting your day. Yes. So how does Jack sort of fit in with your, with your art? Are you able to create while he's there or sort of how does that sort of look on a day to day basis? Yeah. So first six months of, of Jack was pretty much like Groundhog Day. Like I'm not gonna lie, and I'm not gonna sugarcoat parenting. It was bloody hard. Yeah, and I'm very, very self aware person. I didn't go into parenting thinking that was going to be easy but like He literally cracked me open. And like, I'm grateful for that now, but back at the time, I think if I was going to really be completely honest, I probably had postnatal depression and found it very hard asking for help. And I've always been very proud and very independent sort of person. So I felt like I should be able to do this. And if I asked to help others be judged. So the first six months, not a lot, but about 10 months, I think he was probably getting into a routine of better sleep. And I'll just say here that he's like four years old, and still wakes up in the middle of the night. So I'm okay with that. Now, I'm totally okay with that now, because I've surrendered to it. But yeah, like, by 10 months, I think I felt like I needed to, I was trying to claim a piece of myself back. I felt like a given and given and given and it was, it was a real slog. And I wasn't getting a lot of sleep still at 10 months, not getting a lot of sleep. But I think I just needed to try, I knew that I needed to give myself something. But I didn't know. I think it was just the thing that I could see myself able to do at a kitchen table at nighttime. So it was still in my house, I didn't have to go anywhere to do it. And it was therapeutic, like I did enjoy the actual painting side of it. So I definitely, definitely tried it, I got all I did pretty well, I got to 75 days, and then decided I actually made it quite clear. I said to everyone on social media, I can't actually I just can't do this anymore. Like, I actually I'm really proud of the fact that I've got to 75 days, but I can't, like I just can't keep doing it. And it was great, I got a good response. It's like, you know, you've done amazing, we can't believe you've done that with a timer, or baby or whatever. So, after that point, like creating with Jack was just very, very intermittent. It was just, you know, most of the time, if I had a spare couple of hours while he was sleeping, you know, I was actually working like souls back doing my graphic design trying to work within sleep time. So I really wasn't creating a lot at all. Still, like biggest being creative with my, what I call my real job graphic design. But like I wasn't painting, I wasn't like I wasn't, yeah, doing it consistently by any means. Today, as well, I guess, you know, jumping to today's probably cutting out a huge portion of his life. But I think just as he got older, I was able to do a little bit more with him around. But generally now I try and carve out time when I haven't got him or when it might be a weekend and he can be out playing with his dad. And you know, I can sort of just get a mental run on. Like, it's quite hard to explain. I mean, I'm not sure whether it's the same fee, Allison, whether you're writing music, or like producing it or however you do it. But when you're in the zone, you're in the zone, and when you get snapped out like it's very hard to be pulled out of it and then come back in it like and that might just be even like him Jack sticking his head in the door and saying, Hey, Mom, I'm hungry. That can really like snap you out of your like your train of thought. And yeah, like I think that's probably been the trickiest part is when you've got that real creative urge that you just you know that you need to just go in and paint something and you can't do it. So you feeling you get very frustrated and feel a little bit creatively stifled when you can't use that creative energy. And then when you're able to use the creative energy, but you're getting into interrupted. And yeah, and so I think the way that works best for us now is if I just on my own, and I can just do it, and I don't get bothered. And like this is not happening all the time, let me tell you like, but it's amazing. I think it's amazing what you can achieve in a short amount of time when you do have children. Something that might have taken me a few days to achieve like I can literally like do it in a couple like couple of hours. Yeah. So you Learn to use your time very wisely. And you learn to be very intentional with the time that you have. I think so. Yeah, look, it's very much I grab what I can get when I can get it at the moment. Yeah, the time that I can get to create, that's what that's how it works at the moment. But I know down the track, you know, two years time, or kindy, next year, and then school the year after. And I know that a lot of things will open up for me in that in that period of Jack's life. And I don't want to lose sight of like what I've got with him at the moment and the time that I have with him at the moment. So I don't wish I had more time. I'm just taking the time that I've got. Because I know that this is just, this is the season of my life at the moment, and it will change and then it will change again, and it'll all change again. So we'll just continue to do Yeah. Yeah, and you're you're good with change you you like, you know, you're obviously sound like you're accepting that. Do you think that ties into your connection with nature that you, you spend a lot of time, you know, seeing things change? Seeing the leaves change? Seeing, you know? Yeah, I think that that helps. Yeah, I think. I think by nature I like. Yeah, it's probably a little odd really like, because I do like, I do like to know, I do like to know what's in store for me? Yeah, actually, it's really interesting. Yeah, I guess I like an element of control. But for the most part, I'm happy to I'm happy to just move in the direction that feels right. So I think, yeah, yeah, it's a really interesting question. Because I feel like I've probably got a little bit of, like, I've still got an element of control. I think I've probably always had that. But yeah, I'm just, I'm just very trusting of, like, I'm trusting that I'm going to be, I'm going to end up doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing. Have a real fight around it. But yeah, I mean, like, I literally love being out amongst the natural world. Like, it's so grounding for me. And, yeah, I think that probably does play a part in that, like, I see. Like I even said before, it's the season of my life, like, you know, I think I can see that. Like, we're all not meant to be doing the same things. Like every day, I go through phases where I want to be really, really creative. And then I go through like, a social media hiatus where I do not post anything, and like, I'm sure the algorithm hates me for it. But you know, like, I was on holidays recently. And the last thing I wanted to do was even look at social media, let alone post something. So no one heard from me for like, probably 10 days. But yeah, I go, I go through ways of, you know, wanting to be seen and heard. Sometimes I go through phases where I really feel like the thing that I'm thinking about needs to be heard by someone. So I like to like, you know, put it into words or whatever. And then I go through phases where I just literally want to withdraw from it all. And I honor that, like I don't, I'm not going to post just because I want to see me, you know, because the algorithm won't like me I really couldn't care less about but yeah, I think I definitely like to just go with the flow. And I think you're right, probably tying that back into like the nature side of things is probably perfect. Let's delve into the two topics that I particularly like to talk about. First one's mum guilt and put that in air quotes. How do you feel about mum guilt? How do I feel about it? Okay, so if you were talking to me about an experience that you'd had, like, let's say, you were finding it hard, giving yourself time to do something. My advice to you would be, Alison, you're still the person you were before you had a baby. Get out there, you know, you need to spend some time on yourself. So I can give some great advice. But so I would like to say that I don't believe in mom guilt, but I've experienced it. So I think it's definitely it's there. I still have moments, even today, where I feel like I could be doing better, should be making a different decision. I think it's, I think it's incredibly real. I think it would be great if it wasn't, but I think we would be kidding ourselves if we said that it wasn't a real thing. Because yeah, I have felt it. I've probably even been in a category of martyrdom martyrdom? Is that what they call it? Where you? Yeah. Or you just really sacrifice yourself? For somebody else? And yeah, it's really interesting, because like, I've had an understanding prior to having jack of how important it is to look after yourself and to put yourself first and to know that that's actually not being it's not being selfish. It's like, probably the purest form of self love, is to be able to put yourself before somebody else. But then falling into motherhood. And, yeah, it's just a real, like, it just, it up ends that belief. And I think, for me, it probably just, it just happened. Like it was just, I think, a change of lifestyle, knowing that I had a little baby that was like, 100% reliant on me. And I felt like, I just sacrificed myself, I literally did. And I think when it came to that Christmas Day, when I, you know, everything fell apart. You know, it really highlighted to me that I needed to take better care of myself, like I was not eating well, I literally just ate the scraps. And that's not to say that I didn't have like, my partner, cooking me meals and stuff, like I still ate, you know, well, but you know, just just eating toast on the go. And, you know, not just making decision that actually had to look after myself. So, yeah, it took a while to get my head around that. But um, I think, yeah, just getting back to what you said, Mom, Gil is, it's alive. It's happening, it happens. And I think what we all we can do is really like support, especially new moms. To understand, uh, give, give them give them the the ability to be able to, you know, spend time on themselves, you know, going there helping them. But you know, it's not just new moms as well, it's, it's, I think it's mums in general. Yeah. Just yeah. All have kids of all ages. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really important point. Because, I mean, I'm not obviously I'm not begrudging the newborn stage, because I know that it's hell, I've done it twice. And it's really hard. That's the thing like, it's, it's almost like, well, you're over this hard stage, you'll be fine. Now off you go. You know, it's like, the Thank you, right. Looking out for mums of, of children at any stage in any age is really important. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I can only speak of, you know, the first four years. But I know that it's like, it's still things that you know, an example is, you know, I've got work that I have to get done. I've got deadlines, I, I work well, at the moment, I'm not working from home, but I'll likely be back working from home soon. And you know, if there's a time that I need to jump on my computer and finish something off, and Jack comes up to me and says, Mom, can you come play with me? And I have to say, Nobody, I've got to get something done for work, you know, there's an element of guilt in that. But the reality is that that's life. You know, I do have to get this thing done. And so I can I can reflect on that and say, Well, you know, you did have to do the thing that you did earlier. But it doesn't mean that I don't have that moment where I think, you know, I should be playing with him, because this is what he wants. Yeah, so yeah, it's a tricky one, the whole manual situation, but I totally believe it's there. Yeah. It's an endless thing isn't it's like, one day, you might feel like, yeah, you got it. Right. And then the next day, you feel like you're the worst moment? Absolutely. Yeah. It's a constant thing. You mentioned briefly their ties into my second point about identity, where you said, you're still the same person you were before you had children. Obviously, it's a belief that you hold. So one of my friends had a baby, years before I had Jack. And I watched her go through. I watched her lose. I've watched her. I didn't watch her lose her identity. But I watched her. Talk about losing her identity, and then trying to reclaim it back. And I remember saying to her, you're still a person you were before you had your baby. Like, you're still my friend, I still remember you when I like, studied with you live with you. So like, that hasn't changed for me. But she had lost sight of that. And I couldn't quite get my head around it at the time. And I was really trying to explain it to her. And it wasn't until I had Jack that I understood what happens. And you do lose yourself. Like, I don't think it matters how? Well I don't know, I can't speak for everyone, but certainly for me. Like I totally lost myself. I didn't know who I was, I knew that I knew what I enjoyed doing before I had Jack. And I knew that I now had a baby. Obviously couldn't make them both work at the same time. So I felt like I was in this like limbo state. And it took, it took a while for me to work out. Actually, it was sort of like a process of rent reinventing myself. That's how I felt it. It played out. I started trying to paint again, it obviously didn't like go, how I planned. And it was still very hit and miss as far as when I could actually be creative and when I couldn't. But I think what it did was it made me realize what I actually wanted to do. I started to get really clear on the direction that I wanted to take. And I sort of think I had a friend say to me, I think Jack was only quite young, he might have been six months old. And I have a friend or she actually a client as well, who said to me, Julia, when you become a mom, she said you've only got a certain amount of like bullshit that you can tolerate in a day. So when you've reached your threshold, you know you're done. And I I always remember that because I just remember thinking like it. Like I just didn't have time for a lot of stuff that I didn't have any interest in. So I think I just I just I started to become really clear on the direction I wanted to take. I became very clear on the people that I wanted around me and the people I didn't need around me. A lot of things just started to To like very much very slowly, but over time, making more and more sense. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I started to reinvent myself. And yeah, I honestly believe that's why I'm where I am today, because I just didn't have I just didn't have the energy for meaningless things. And so I was just trying to follow the things that felt right and felt good. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like this, this new perspective of, like, I only have this amount of time. And I'm not going to give this time to stuff that that doesn't feel good for me or is, you know, feels like it's being wasted on stuff. That's irrelevant. And, yeah, I think naturally, you know, when your life changes that much, I think naturally, things just drop away. And like that, that goes for friendships, jobs, beliefs, I think just the things that don't serve you anymore, or perhaps were not really sustaining in the first place. You just don't have time for them. Or they don't have time for you anymore. So I think. Yeah, look, I think you get like, I think motherhood is just such a pivotal point in a woman's life, I don't think you can, you can ever expect that you're going to be the person that you were before. I think is so unrealistic. But you don't know that until you doing it. Yeah. Let's see, it's very much it's very much a learned and learned experience or a learning lesson. So you have you have to experience it together. It's like that joke if you had to be there. When you said before about control with, with Jack, when I had Digby, sorry, when I had Alex, I was exactly the same. I just wanted everything to go, how I needed it to go. Like, I remember one day, I had a similar experience to you, but perhaps not on the same scale that I wanted to go and watch Ben, he was cycling at that stage. So what I'm watching, right, so I'd worked out the whole day of when he had to get out when he had to sleep all this stuff to say that I could go watch. And it didn't work. And I just lost it. I was like, I can't do anything anymore. Because I've got this kid and blah, blah. And I remember my mother in law said he's not going to be this young forever is going to change. And I was like, we're like, I didn't hear that. You know, it didn't mean anything at the time. And then when he did start to change as of this morning period of Oh, no, he's not a baby anymore. But you know, like, Mr. Graham said, we don't wish it away. Don't Don't wish him to be older. So yeah, when I had D, I was the complete opposite. And I think it helped because I had been working in childcare for quite a while. And I had to excite, I saw all the myriads of ways that children could be raised and how their routines could be. And I had this whole new outlook on on parenting. And also there were seven years between them, so I hadn't quite grown up as the two and eggs. I just let it happen as it happened. And I was just such a more relaxed mother. Yeah, just I could completely, completely relate to that. Your experience. When you said, like, you know, you had this thing you wanted to be doing at the end of the day, so like, you will try and organize wake sleep. lunch late, you know, and I did the same thing. It was like, yeah, the pressure. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I didn't really touch too much on the spiritual side of things. But like, yeah, like, it's, maybe it's not the same for everyone. But for me, it was like a very, very, like it was it was an awakening of sorts, it was sort of like, you know, you you can't control everything. Like, you're not meant to control everything. So I just feel like I've been cracked open multiple times through this parenting experience. And it's been, it's been like, I would never ever trade it for anything in the world. But I'm also not going to gloss over it and pretend that it was easy because I think we say so much of that. And I feel like people go into parenting with this like me, you don't want to make them feel like it's going to be doom and gloom otherwise You know, the Human Rights Code at the end? You know, like, but you want to give them some honest, like, give them some honest accounts of what you've been through. Because then it also validates the people that are in it doing it, thinking that life is just like, yeah, it is hard and to have people come along and say, like, even when you're in your depths, and someone comes along and says, this won't last forever, don't wish this away. It's like, no, but can you just like, can you just sit with me in this place that I'm in at the moment and actually validate that I'm, it's okay for me to be thinking this thing at the moment. Like, yeah, yeah, it's valid. Yeah, yeah. I don't think enough of that goes on, that you're actually you're allowed to feel what you're feeling. It's okay to fear feeling. And let yourself feel that way. You know, when one comes along and says, you know, Julia, this might be forever, and then you get that element of guilt. You know, like I should be, I should be more thankful and grateful. Yeah, like, I went through an infertility journey leading up to having Jack and that was four years. And then when I had him to have all these feelings of like, you know, like my life, I remember feeling trapped. I remember sitting on the toilet one day, just thinking, I'm just trapped. And like, I'm just, I can't get out of this. Yep. I remember having thoughts of blackjack not being able to sleep. So. So when when I was trying to put him to bed because this was bedtime, trying to get him to sleep, persisting, persisting, persisting, almost going insane. When really, I should have just got him up. Got Back Up. He's not ready to sleep yet. Put him back down later, but no, in my head. This was bedtime. Yeah. And I so I drove myself like, crazy. And I remember thinking, I wish he had a reset button that I could like, I remember having those thoughts of like, I wish I could literally just press a button that turned him off. And he went to sleep. Yeah. So like, I look back on my sports now. And I'm like, God, that was crazy. But you're in the depths of it like, and when you're having that little thought to yourself in that dark room, and no one else is seeing or hearing it. You know, you nobody knows what you're going through. Do that. Like nobody. Nobody hears that little thought that you have? No. Yeah. So yeah. All right, it was bloody hard. You didn't know any better. And I think that's where you need to give yourself grace. You just you didn't know any better. And if you did it all again, and you have you do it differently, because you've learned and you're easier on yourself. And, you know, I hope that I get to do it again. But I know that if I do it would be totally different. I'll have a different perspective. And you know, Jack's four years old, maybe I'll have a seven year gap to you know, like, and I'm actually okay with that. Because I think I don't think I could have done it any other way. Oh, yeah, I don't think but I don't think I could back up children like you know, and I'm not no disrespect to anyone who like wants the two year gap or the whatever. But I don't personally think that I could have ever achieved it. If I had a fallen pregnant when Jack was two years old, I would have cried myself to sleep every night like I just don't believe that I was meant to have you know, yeah, so Oh, you know, the beauty of hindsight Hey, sort of look back and yeah, but it is what it is. And you know, we just did the best we could really so which wasn't really that bad? So you've recently set up a space outside your home for your work? Yeah, yeah. Is that going going good? No, it's going really well. I'm I'm probably there for a little bit longer as in maybe a month to six weeks, something like that. But I yeah, I was offered a Be the back section of a coffee shop in Mount Gambia called confession. Who does delicious coffee by the way? That's been the downfall. So much caffeine. But yeah, look, I got to a point where I needed a I just wanted a space that wasn't at home. I could see that. Like, I wasn't getting a lot done here. So I felt like I needed like some way that I could actually go to work. I've been working from home for I think, eight years, actually not nine years. And for the most part, it's been fantastic. But yeah, I actually put something up on Instagram one day. And it was just like, does anybody have a place? I'm sort of in need of a space to work from can be, can be formal, it can be informal, I'm not going to rule out what it is where it is. Yeah, so I just sort of, you know, put it out to the universe and. And then, like, I was probably buying copies everyday from confession at that point. Yeah. And then I got a message from Don on on a Thursday night to say, you know, we've got this space, businesses moved out of it, and they've found their own short brand. Do you have any interest in maybe working from there for a few months, and really, just to fill a hole? So it was going to be just an empty room? And they didn't want that? So without even thinking? I just thought, yeah, absolutely. Like, what is the worst that can come of this, I am either incredibly unproductive there. And I can work, I can just bring my stuff home and work from here if I need to. But I had this whole room that I could hang up my artwork, which has been leaning up against walls in my office for ages. So I just really saw it as an opportunity and a bit of an experiment. I still see it as an experiment. Yeah, I just couldn't see any negatives to it. So it's been fantastic. I have spoken to people that call, like it's a bit of a thoroughfare the room that I'm in. But like I get to chat to people that I've never met before, I've had some amazing encounters and conversations with people that have like, furthered me in some way, whether it's the way I think about something or, you know, just conversations with people who are trying to create art groups or other artists, or yeah, I've had the ability to work with alongside a couple of artists, and it's just fabulous being in that really sort of creative space with other people. Oh, yeah, I've had my artwork up on walls, I've been able to sell a couple of paintings, just expose myself to a group of people that I wouldn't normally come across. And it's been absolutely fantastic. And what I've learned from it is, as much as I classify myself as an introvert, I do need interaction with people. But I need it, I sort of need it on my terms, too. So I get a lot from working with other creative people. Just it doesn't, I don't have to be working on a project with them. But just being in their creative space is very important. And that I get a lot more done working from somewhere than working from home. Like it's amazing. How many times I probably catch myself underneath my clothesline hanging out washing. How did I even get here? You know, it's just like, I think you hear the washing machine go off. And before you know it, you you're hanging up the washing and it's like, Joey, you're working like so, yeah, I'm realizing now that there is a benefit to me not working from home. And I love the fact that I can go to work. And I come home and I feel like there's a division between the tote. Yep. And I feel like when I'm home, I'm home and I'm present. And these are just all things that I have haven't. I just haven't noticed because I haven't been able to work away from my office that is in my house. And now that I've had that opportunity on I think like from here and I'll be looking for somewhere that I can actually call my work space or my studio where I can be I just productive and have my own my own area. And I also know that I want to be able to work amongst other people. So, yeah, it's been fantastic. It's been so good for that. Yeah, absolutely. It's given you these, like, like we said before you don't you don't know. I guess you don't know what you don't know. So by experiencing things you've gone, yeah, this is good. Yeah. I think it's great to for people that, like, follow you on social media, they can actually go and meet you face to face to, which is, like, so important, I think to like, it's great that people build relationships online, but it's, I think it's, it's, especially with art, like you actually want to see and I don't want to say touch the person, but you want to be more of the the person that's making this. So yeah, to you know, you get the energy and pick up on the vibes and that sort of stuff, too. So, definitely, definitely the benefits that way as well. And for people to be able to, you know, touch and feel and you know, see work and yeah, it's great I'll just check ever get involved with you just say do painting or anything like that? Do you do it together? Yeah, definitely does. And Jack is like, he's he hasn't shown a huge interest in like art and stuff at the moment. There's also an element of me like, not wanting him to get pain everywhere. I was gonna I would definitely had died outside where he's unleashed his creative, his creative desires. But yeah, he's, yeah, like, he's definitely got creative creativity in him. But at the moment, he's just very much into anything with wheels. That makes noise. Yeah. He was funny, he was playing in doing some coloring in only a couple of days ago. And like, he colored outside of the line, okay, so He's four years old, colored outside of the line, and he colored over the top of the yellow headlight on the car. And he was he hated it. He told me, he was never going to pick up another colored pencil. And here I am, like, deciding going, you have done an amazing job Jack, like, you know, you're practicing, you're not you can't coloring in the lines, you know, you're not going to be able to do it properly for a little while. So I'm encouraging you, meanwhile, really saying a portion of myself inside of him, like, you know, trying to control things. But yeah, he, I don't think he doesn't really influence my work. The way that he does influence, I guess the way that he does influence my creativity in some way is that, you know, I want I want him to do the things that he loves to do. And I want him to explore the things that he loves to do. And I think, like, I can only lead by example, in that, in that respect. So I want him to know that, you know, I've had a lot of people say to me, Oh, you're you're the rd type. And, oh, what does it mean? Like I like to, I'd like to just get you to explain that to me. But um, you know, a lot of a lot of a lot of people think artists can't make money. But artists can make money. There's plenty of artists that make money there. us in this town making a lot of money by selling their stuff online. And yeah, to not sort of pigeonhole anything into you know, just give, give, just entertain the idea that you could be, you know, good at this thing. If it's not today, it could be, you know, in a month's time, or maybe it'll be 10 years time, but like, just persistence is the key. So, he influences me in that respect, but he doesn't necessarily influenced the things that I paint. That's very much a personal thing for me, so Yeah, but he's certainly part of the process. I guess. You can't he can't not be Yeah, yeah, that's the that's the Yeah. So I've got one more workshop left for the year. And that is on the fourth of December, that's a Saturday at the apple farm. That's a two hour workshop. And it includes sexually over three hours, there's a two hour workshop. And then there's an hour for lunch. And there'll be a delicious pizza and sort of shared platter lunch. And that's a very festive theme. So there'll be the opportunity to paint some, you know, gift tags and cards and stuff like that. It's quite a social, a social sort of afternoon. So it's not so much about learning a lot about how to paint watercolor is just giving you sort of the tools, the materials to be able to just have a bit of fun. And I'm sort of really like envisioning, you know, especially moms, I'm very, very feminine audience. And I just sort of want people to be able to say, oh, you know, we haven't worked with our friends for ages. Why don't we do this thing that's like our little Christmas catch up? Because we all know what sort of December looks like in most people's calendars. Yeah. Well, like a staff show or something like that. So it's such a beautiful venue, and I'm hoping that the weather is amazing. And, you know, good food, good company. You know, a bit of like, creativity, I think it's perfect. So yeah, that's, that's the workshop that I've got coming up. I've just launched my website. Congratulation one. Now, there's still a lot to go on there. But like, once again, something is better than nothing. And it's, it's an evolution at all, like, it'll just continue to evolve. But yeah, so I've got my website up. So my web address is Julia Rita creates.com. And I'm just about to kick off on a project run by April Hague, and Jane Van Eaton. So to like amazing artists in our Gambia, who were doing like fabulous things with regard to, like art education. And they, they just recently won a grant. And they've launching a project called The Portrait Project. And it's, I believe, it's 10 artists, we all have our photo taken. And then we all paint a portrait of either ourself or one other person in the group based on the portrait photo that was taken of us. And it's a project that will span over six months, and we get to spend time with like these 10 artists, and we get to sort of collaborate and discuss and just learn different techniques and styles. And I think it's just fantastic to sort of submerge yourself in a group of women that all have like a similar interest. And so yeah, I was so thrilled to be invited to do that. And it was, again, like one of those no brainer moment moments where I knew this was sort of like another experience that would like enhance the direction that I'm going in. And so eventually, once that project is tied up, our portraits will be printed on a large scale and actually put up in a public space. So yeah, like really confronting, because portraits are obviously not something that I paint, and let's face it, like I think everyone a, whether you're artistically minded, or not, like painting a face is actually quite, you know, stretching the skill set. And you guys to having your face out there, like that something to, you know, consider if there's any sort of, you know, well, I've got a big chin or you know, that sort of stuff, you know, it's Yeah, that's me. I've, I've I have fast forwarded my thoughts to that moment. But no, look, it's it's gonna be fantastic. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's only really just kicking off at the moment. But I think if you were interested in more on that particular project, you could go to if you look up April Hague haitch ag UAE on Instagram. She's got some information on there. But yeah, perhaps if they If I do set up a specific social media page, I'll let you know Alison so you can be on it to the specific Yes, Lily kids. Yeah, I'd love to keep keep her eye on that. And I'm sure a lot of people would be really interested in that too. Yeah. Seeing the progression of that. Oh, that sounds so great. Julie. A good one. Yeah. Lots of cool stuff happening. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I should also say that I am going to be at a market on the 10th of December. Yeah, at the city hall and that Gambia there's an artisans market there. So yeah, it was quite popular last time. So hopefully this time as well. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Janelle Thomas Dubai based singer + songwriter S2 Ep64 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Janelle Thomas, a singer, songwriter and performer based in Dubai, UAE. and a mum of 2 boys. Janelle begin performing at the age of 5, at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons, and played in the high school Marching Band playing clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20's deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music at Concordia College in Montreal. Her day job wasn’t satisfying her, and fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for 4 months. Without really knowing where Oman was, she said yes! That was 16 years ago and she has performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract, when he joined the band as the guitarist and they have been together ever since. Janelle and Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015, they continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting two wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud, high-voltage 5-7 piece pop cover bands (as bandleader and musical director, respectively). Under the guise of "Lady J Duo" they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics, and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary, good-vibes-only listening experience that is elegant, yet funky. In the Autumn of 2012 they released Noise Rises (Strange Cat Records), an album of retro-inspired funky soul, featuring ten original songs they wrote together. In the spring of 2020, during the Dubai Covid-19 lockdown, Janelle and Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity, showcasing their favourite tunes, taking on-the-spot requests, and cameos by their firstborn Theo (a natural show-stealer). They continued these for 18 months. You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast today, and her music is used with permission. Connect with Janelle website / facebook / instagram Podcast - instagram / website You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast, and her music is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast this week. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Janelle Thomas, a singer songwriter and performer based in Dubai in the UAE, and a mom of two boys. Janelle began performing at the age of five at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons and played in the high school marching band on clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20s deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music at Concordia College in Montreal. her day job wasn't really satisfying. And fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for four months. without really even knowing where Oman was. She said yes, that was 16 years ago, and she's performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract when he joined the band as the guitarist. Janelle And Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015. They continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting to wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud High Voltage five to seven piece, pot cover band as bandleader and musical director respectively, under the guise of the Lady J. God, Lady J. bein Janelle, they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary good vibes only listening experience that is elegant yet funky. In the autumn of 2012. They released noise rises through strange cat records are an album of retro inspired funky soul, featuring 10 original songs that they wrote together in the spring of 2020. During the Dubai COVID-19 lockdown, Janelle And Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity showcasing their favorite chains, taking on the spot requests and featuring cameos by their firstborn Theo and natural show stealer. They continue these for 18 months. You're here Janelle is amazing vocals throughout this podcast today, and their music is used with permission. I hope you enjoy today's episode Gavin lane, got a fistful. Gonna run that bill will be the end of a long route backwards dad. No place my hands. Man and we're all gonna say welcome Janelle. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me. Allison. I'm excited. Yeah, so I can I can hear your lovely accent. You're from Canada. Is that right? I am. I'm from Canada, but I live in Dubai. Alright, so what how like, how long have you lived there for what sort of brought you there? So while the music Yeah. So my husband and I have been together 16 years. He's also Canadian. And we started traveling in a band. So So we were playing hotel residencies in the Middle East and throughout Asia. We did that for about eight, nine years. And then it brought us to Dubai. So we've been here since January 2015. And we're residents here now. And we've had two little boys here. So this is this is home for the time being. Yeah. So these are really hot there. Let the moment super hot. Yeah. I just got in from the pool. So I'm okay at the moment. But yeah, summers are very long they and very hot, especially with small kids. You really feel it so much more, because you're basically just inside for five months? Yeah, but it can get up to 50 degrees Celsius. Sand humid. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, the outdoors is kind of non existent, aside from if you're doing something in the water. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. With us being from Canada, we do have a bit of that experience. Because you'll have really cool times in the winter, where you don't go outside, you're not gonna go take a stroll or take your baby out or anything. But they don't tend to be constant, you know, you'll have cold days, and then it kind of warms up enough. And you pack on your layers and you go outside, whereas when it's hot, it's just hot. Yeah. Because you can't do anything you Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we used to find this. Okay. And since we had kids, we just find them brutal. So we're just counting down till October. Oh, my gosh. So what's like an average sort of when it when it's not so hot? What's the weather like, then? So lovely. You know, there's kind of six months of a year where it's gorgeous. And you kind of can't think about living anywhere else. So I would say sort of the coolest it gets probably in January, maybe days that are around 20 to 25. But Sunny, and gorgeous. It's perfect. Yeah, I mean, those are the times where I find it too cold to go swimming. I say that as a Canadian where I grew up swimming in icy lakes. But yeah, I get I get in the water now. And it's the season you sort of, you're sort of forced to do things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you had your own choice. If you lead with me. Love you. So tell me about how you got into music because it's something you've always done. Yes. And no, you know, probably like a lot of musicians always been a music lover. There was always lots of music in our house, my parents, neither of whom are musicians, but we had, you know, huge record collection. And there was always lots of singing and dancing that was encouraged. So, actually, I started performing. From age five, I lived in a really small town, and we had we had little ballet school. And that, for me was everything like those ballet recitals at the end of the year, you know, with costumes and makeup and lights. So I would say that that's where it all started was was there. So for the first few years, I danced, I took piano lessons, as you do. And then when it was time to go to high school, actually, I chose to go to high school in the big city, which was Montreal. My dad used to commute he drove back and forth. So actually I commuted with him like super early mornings and stuff like that, to go to high school. But I really wanted that school because it was the only one in the city that had a marching band. I was in the marching band and nerd for years playing the clarinet. And I played the trombone for a year. And then after that, you know sort of spent my 20s I think sort of struggling with am I going to be an artist? Can I be an artist? Or should I get a real job? You know, I did do a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music. Yeah, because when it was time for university, I thought I really like to do something I enjoy. I might spend three years enjoying myself and then need to become an accountant or something serious, but give it a go, you know? Yeah, and then just sort of bounce back and forth, did some contracts, then some admin work and then would be, you know, kind of happy with the lifestyle of neither. But it just kept pulling me back in I really was miserable when I was being an administrator even though I had some great jobs and lovely people. Have you know, and there was just a moment where I realized, like, I cry before I go to work every day at this very nice job. It's just such a nice job for somebody else. It's not for me, I can't do this. I'm only 26, whatever, to have given up. And so actually chance meeting with a musician I knew. And he said, We've just lost our singer. And we have a gig in Oman. And do you want to join our band and travel for four months? And I said, okay, and then said, Where's omen? While it's kind of next to Dubai, it was okay. But I never heard of it. So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, like when, and it was really different experience starting to travel then I mean, we had an app and there was no, YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was none of that kind of even the amount of information that you'd have was limited. It was people's blogs, and, you know, blurry photos and that kind of thing. So it was a relatively scary and endeavor to embark on. I think the thing that saved me is the four guys in the band that I went with, had all been there the year before. So they did have lots of first hand experience. But of course, coming from Canada and traveling to the Middle East for my first real big overseas adventure, let some preconceptions about how it's going to be and I thought, well, I'll just do four months, and then I'll go home. And then 16 years later. Still here. So your husband's musical as well. You guys played together? Where did you make the line? So I met him after that first contract. So actually, I did one conch. I did one more than he's done. So I joined here Monday. Oh, yes, we're totally keeping score, who's played more show? So I joined the band in January and somehow got asked to be the bandleader. I really feel it was by default, because everyone else in the band was French Canadian. And I was the only one who spoke English. And with my administrative background, I spoke good business English. So, you know, I would have the current bandleader coming to me and saying, Can you help me formulate this email? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't start it with Pedro. You know, it has to be a little more formal than that. So he kind of went, well, could you just do it? I was like, Okay, I guess so. So I certainly took on all the admin tasks, which also involves liaising with any of the agents or hotels that we were, you know, that we were dealing with, because these are five star properties, you know, the Grand Hyatt and Hilton and everything, like you needed to kind of be a little bit more on it than that it was the time. So we did the one gig. And then we went back to Montreal for this summer and made a couple of changes to the lineup, the guitars that we had was leaving. And so we went through about oh, my gosh, seven guitarists trying to find a good fit. And finally got Felix who was recommended by a friend of a friend. He was only 22. At the time, he lived in an even smaller town than the one I was from, like, 500 people. And, you know, 20,000 Cows was kind of where he was coming from. He'd never been on a plane. And so for him, it was an equally big adventure. And he, but he was kind of in a place in his life where he wasn't really happy and had just finished his musical education, you know, informally in college, and that, and he sort of same as me with, well, I'll do it for four months. And yeah, and then we got together pretty much right away. So that definitely helped us both feel like this was something that we wanted to stick with. And so yeah, so we've been together a long time. Oh, that's an awesome story. I love that. And isn't it just so typical in the music world? It's like, it's a friend of a friend or someone new this person or it's just the way it goes? Isn't it? Just this connection of people? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, we're very lucky. But that and it's also funny, too, that there's, I'm, you know, the more that I have, the longer that I am a musician, the more I'm amazed by stories of bands who have that longevity, you know, like bands like YouTube, where they have the same members forever. Because I know even in a couple, it can be really hard to have exactly the same vision for the music and the same vision for the timing of how you want things to go. You know, when we had mostly we play as a duo now, but But we spent most of our time together playing with larger groups. And there were lots of fantastic musicians we played with, who would say I'm tired of traveling, I want to go home and be with my other half, or we had someone leave to go to med school. And it was kind of doable, but you're an amazing keyboard player, he was okay. But I want to be a doctor. So, so to realize that not only does the music have to work, but where you are in your life at that time. It has to work like that for people could do that for 30 years. It is it's incredible, isn't it? When you break it down like that you think of all the things that could have changed or gone wrong, or like it's, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's still we actually liking each other and getting on like, right. I'm not saying that about you and your husband? I mean, I'm talking about you too. No, no, no, you can say it about us too. Yeah. Gosh. Adding up your misery causes in the shop, you've been dumped by text, then being slipped. You're wondering what's next, baby. Though life's looking great. You can choose not to decide. I have listened to some of your tracks online, you have got a powerhouse voice. I love your voice. It's I love a bit of built voice. It's so good. passion and energy. Yeah, so did you have like formal lessons for your voice? Or did you just sort of instinctively feel it out and work it out yourself? I've had very few, very few. So I went to university in jazz boys, but have had zero lessons. Before I started I had they went to Concordia, University of Montreal and one of the things I love about their program is they want it to be more inclusive. So unlike some of the other universities that really kind of only take you if you've been through the conservatory stream, or what have you, they just sort of said, if you want to play come audition, first, show us what you can do. And then we'll teach you all the back end, after you know, so. So I was kind of on the edge because I'd had quite a I had a fantastic teacher in high school, you know, but but wasn't quite there. So still needed to do more training, you know that you're training and theory and harmony and all of that to come. So they call that sort of like a zero level to get up to level one to be with everyone else. But but in terms of the singing, I did have contract wasn't really, it really wasn't much. There's only about two semesters of vocal lessons with Jerry Brown, who was their vocal jazz instructor. One of the things I'm really grateful to her for it is she she just gave me a lot of opportunity to get onstage, which I think I really I really needed at that time. As you can see, that's the part that I've hung on to like, gosh, don't ask me any harmony theory now that's long forgotten, but it's still performing. And, and then after that I did. I did a musical review from point and there was a really great vocal coach there as well. So she I mean, the coaching was quite specific to the songs for the show. But she was she came from a musical theater background. So that kind of helps with all that. Belting and being on stage and having to really, again, like project and in a very much like onstage performance way as opposed to recording or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it is so different, isn't it? It's yeah, two completely different things. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of the music that you do, I know, I've seen that you write your husband and yourself right together. And you do have this, but I think the way I can't remember how you worded it now on your website, but it was really clever. It's like you could take any style of song and turn it into your own basically, is that how you look at when you're, you're doing your comments. That wasn't how we started. But that's very much Where to now that we've seen too, just in general, I think I think YouTube has been great for for that for introducing the general audience to kind of the magic of reinterpreting you know, reinterpreting styles, so, especially groups like postmodern jukebox, and we're big fans of scary pockets who do funk covers of whatever, you know. So we've found in recent times, that's gotten a lot of traction for us. And it's also cool because when we spent a decade basically just playing pop music, and lots of songs that we love, and it was, you know, full on big songs, Sweet Child of Mine and Highway to Hell sometimes and all these kinds of things. And now we don't have to lose that repertoire because we can translate it. So we do funk version of sweet child of mine, we do a jazz version of, you know, you shook me all night long. And, and, and sort of, you know, all kinds of other things. And so it's a lot of fun for us, I find in that way, it's a more creative process than it used to be where we were just sort of the cover band who had to, as best as we could reproduce what was on the record. You know, that's what we kind of did for a long time trying to bring life to the album version, but but it was pretty much you know, in the box, and it's not so much now. Yeah, that is good. Because like, I don't, obviously, I don't know what the audiences are like in Dubai, I can only speak from my, my tiny little town, but my sister and I had a lot of experience singing in bands, my sister more than me, but, and I did a lot of covers as a soloist. And sometimes your audience just wants to hear the songs that they know, done in the way that they know. And it can be really challenging to get them past that, and to push them a little bit. So it sort of can be hard to know, like, unless your audience is ready for it can be really daunting to try and put in something else and even like putting in originals is like, you know, is that you can sort of relate to that very much very much. And, you know, the audiences in Dubai are high maintenance, I find that way. They're great. And they love live music. And we, I mean, we have a career as purely full time performing musicians, you know, we don't have other jobs we don't teach, we're so lucky. This is what we've been able to do for 16 years. But at the same time, I think that demands are such from us, the as you said, like if it's Hotel California, just play the solo, don't do anything else they want to sing along, maybe they know this solo, you know, they need to hear it as they know it. So there are some songs where we just kind of were like, we're not even gonna attempt that, that you guys just you need it the way you need it. So that's fine. But actually, it's been surprising that they've been as open as they, as they are to hearing different versions of things, we find there's very few opportunities where they're really open to hearing things that they don't know like in that sort of why we don't one of the reasons why we don't do more original music here. The other reason is we have two small children. We got like no time or brain space to write anything. But also there really isn't the opportunity for that you just and you know it's hard when you're playing and you see everyone's eyes kind of glazing over. Yes, I know that feels like you feel like I've got these people they go and really good and then you put in you think I'll take a chance now putting this out and then it's like dammit, I want to stop halfway through despite all the fire alarm. Oh, it's funny, isn't it it was the story that drew me in. Hell you were so inspired by the man with a Viking didn't know it was just you using views and trying to confuse So you mentioned that the two small children How old are your children? So we have two boys who is four and a half and Hendrix is two. Oh, I love it is a great night. Oh that's good. We figured we have to get away at least we're both your parents are musicians. Yeah. Do something a little little left to center it to each night. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be a shame if you did it. Right. So did they like they enjoy sort of hearing you guys playing the guitar or singing at home? You know what, it's funny actually, we don't do nearly enough playing at home. I think that that's one of the for us. One of the hard things about maybe gigging as much as we do you know, and I hate to say there's anything hard about it because I know we're very blessed but like we're we're tired during the Ha, we're good. So I know other people will say, Oh, you must just grab a guitar and sing along all the time. And I'm just, I'm just trying to keep it quiet. And I talk too much during the day, because I gotta go work tonight. You know, when we do, they love it, obviously, they're totally exposed, you know, there's instruments around, they can play what they want, they can sing a lot. We, during COVID, one of the things we did to sort of stay in touch with people is we started live streaming, it was new for us. But we were locked down here in Dubai. And like, when we had our lockdown, it was locked in a locked down, like we did not go outside of the apartment for 35 days, at one point, everything is very delivery oriented in Dubai, even before COVID. So it was quite easy. So you can still get, you know, your medication or groceries or whatever, it all came to the door. But so we were struggling with being trapped in the house at the time, I was four months pregnant and you know, being trapped together with your husband and your two year old. Boy, it was like, Okay, we were feeling really lonely. You know, so we thought, let's try live streaming. And it just got a great reaction. And we realized, actually, that we'd spent so long making music and traveling for people all over the world, but not are our families and our, our people at home because what we do go home for our one month of holiday. Most years. We're like we don't, we're on holiday, I know, I need a break. And I'm what we used to play in a band, it was always really loud music six days a week. And vocally, I needed a massage, you know, so I could do the next 11 months, that kind of thing. So, so those people just, they don't know, they don't know what we do. So our family and friends were just tuning in in droves, you know, and people also to have their own, you know, lockdown of whatever degree. So we found, especially people who are alone, so, you know, kind of in the moms category, but a lot of these are women who live alone, who were really, really isolated. So being able to come on and see us and and we started bringing Bo on and then it was like, forget it. Like we felt like we played a 55 minute, like opening act. So they didn't come on for the last five. You just have people chiming in, in the chat going to have the open arms. And other people like No, no, it hasn't come yet. Okay, like whatever, like we're just the warm up. But this was lovely. Yeah, it was great to see that, that he had fans. And it was a way to, for us to also share what we have, like it's so we kind of got released, you know, into the wild, maybe sooner than in Canada or the UK. So we were back out and doing activities. You know, before people there were. And so then actually, we sort of started this whole new feature of also just filming the activities that we did. So if we went we took to the or to the aquarium, or we went to the pizza or just rode the metro or whatever. We just filmed them. And it was just kind of, you know, life in Dubai, and he would come on and he would narrate the whole thing, which people love. So he tell him, you know, if we went to the petting zoo, and all that, so yeah, he was super into that. So it's a bit sad that now that we've gotten busier, we don't have the same kind of time to do that. Because I think it was a really special features special time that we ended up doing. Probably about 100, like full hour or hour, it became an hour and a half because an hour wasn't enough, you know. And we played games, we did like a quiz show, and we did all kinds of stuff. I'm disappointed because that would have been amazing. Our Australian friends did have trouble turning it because it was like 12 It was midnight or one in the morning for you know, maybe my nurse friend coming off shift at the hospital. So you catch a bit but that was awkward on is that oh, yeah, I could certainly relate to that. Like, you know, you're doing it for yourself because you need something to keep that creativity sort of going, you know, but yeah, like you said the the upside of that is people on the other end are getting so much out of it. So yeah, my news for Don Yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, it was good. And it's it was really nice to that over the course of the probably about 18 months that we ended up doing it You had to it was kind of starting at just about two, not even two and a half. And so that for me now has been such great memories to preserve to really see him growing. And you hear him singing, and he's singing more in tune as the time goes along, and then his baby, and I'm getting more and more pregnant, you know, and then his baby brothers, and then his baby brother is coming now and singing when we do you know, the two of them sing together and all that. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to share that with with people for whom it's that's also really meaningful to them. Yeah, it's a very small, but very important and significant audience. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. That is, it's a lovely little snapshot to have, isn't it of that period of time in your life yeah. How did you go singing when you were pregnant? Did you find you your breath was affected, like the diaphragm and all that from having this baby? Good times. For out of breath. And super out of breath. Like, both times, actually, I think I was more out of breath in my first trimester than I was at the end, you know. So that was, so when I was pregnant with Theo, we were actually still on our hotel are the very last of our hotel residency gigs. So it was here in Dubai. But it was still three or four nights a week, nightclub Smokies still jumping up and down that kind of thing. Still being expected to do shots with people like I just had to constantly be making excuses for why more I was telling people that I was pregnant, you know. So that would be jumping up and down still having to do, you know, Highway to Hell. And whenever that was tough, that was tough in that sense. And I think once you start showing and you're pregnant, it's, then people understand, oh, yeah, okay, well, you're going to take it easy, you're not going to jump around so much. So then just my feet were killing. But with deal I performed up until so this was 2017. So I performed up until two days before he was born. Because he came three weeks early. Yeah, I was it was supposed to be my last go. And, and even had my friend, our great friend who's the drummer at the time, and he said, you know, you better take it easy, because you don't want your water to break onstage. I think it's totally said as a joke. And it didn't, but it did 20 hours later, like it nearly did. And I thought oh my gosh, it just would have ruined that status. All the cables, like I could just imagine everything's covered in like goop, you know? Yeah, so I did my last show. And then he was born less than 48 hours later. Was it supposed to be like that, but anyhow, he had other plans. So that was, it was great. Like, actually, I love being pregnant and still singing, I felt really good. I felt really healthy. My feet were sore all the time. But But aside from that, the guys I worked with, were super supportive, you know, and, and people loved it, too. You know, we like we are played at Hard Rock Cafe at that time, which is a very, very much a family venue out here. And so you just have women coming up all the time and and remembering their pregnancies. And it just felt really wholesome, kind of like family, family values sort of thing. And that was definitely my plan being pregnant with Hendrix too, but you know, COVID can kind of hit when I was about four months pregnant. So So one of the things they did here in Dubai is in addition to the lockdown then even when we were, you know, kind of free to go out again, there were still really, really tight restrictions on entertainment for quite a long time. So. So even though I was ready, I was like, you know, we've been out of work, went back at it, even though I'm seven months pregnant now or whatever. I couldn't and so, so then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gigs that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it though physically like we did you you must have Like, good birth and everything like good after, or was it like really? I did, like I really, you know, I had great pregnancies and the actual deliveries were a little bit tough at times I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like convinced showing us on this Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage, everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said Hampshire, you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby, like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit. My feet were so swollen. And I thought, you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can. Like, I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just, I couldn't even put my feet in anything. And so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is, please, everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah. But, but I got there. And I really, we, you know, we played three sets. And I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna faint. Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea. I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches. So I couldn't sit. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want a stool. I'm like, no, no, no stool, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like cling on to the mic stand for the first few sets. But you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. So everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see as you know, we've been six months since we've been there. Because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually the third set, good. The third set was better and it was kind of okay, well, this is the power of music that what it can actually do for all of us. But oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Ah, I'll take my hat off to you. Honestly, that's that is amazing. Good on you. Was there ever any question in your mind that you weren't going to do it though? Did you ever think? No, I just No, I cannot do it was like that. I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. It's happening. And you know, I will say that, like six months of unemployment is a really good motivator for that, too. You're just like, yeah, no, no, we need to start having the ball of finances you know, ball financial ball rolling, like ASAP so, yeah, I'm gonna get on stage. Now when I look at it. I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're a crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Good. Take up drinking is Elton cloud syncing, trial fun and give thinking, wow. Get out and founded by Anna less than wrenching. You go up to your head. Do them. How long did were you away from the station before you came back? Four weeks, maybe four weeks? Five weeks? Yeah. It took it took longer. I will say at that time. But I felt good. You know, I felt like I was ready to be back. But of course the first time. I just couldn't imagine the legit sticks of having to leave him like it wasn't even necessarily that I was nervous to leave him with somebody else. Because of course, like, free COVID, right, he was kind of everyone had helped him and everybody, you know, we used to just like people cough, germs all of our babies all the time. So, you know, that was okay, I was comfortable with that. But I could barely figure out like how to get out of the house, in under four hours, you know, when we would have a doctor's appointment? Like I would literally be preparing for that. Hours and hours ahead of time and still be late all the time. You know, I think one of the the differences too is I was breastfeeding exclusively. The he didn't do any auto feeding for the first two months. So that too, I was just kind of like, how does that work? How are they gone? So actually, the first gig that I did with Theo was one that had come in, and it was in our neighborhood. So it was like 10 minutes walk from the house, it just happened. And I thought this one I can do, you know, I can live and it was one that had a kind of a strange pacing for the evening. So in the middle of the evening, there was like a one and a half hour break. And I thought I can do that. I'll just run home, like in my show clothes, and then feed my baby and then run back to the gig and then come back after. Yeah, so it just kind of worked out that that was one and then you know, quite quickly realizing I have to make a compromise somewhere like I can't just be exclusively breastfeeding. If I want to also be on stage I have to be able to be away for four gigs. So but that's a hard, a hard, you know, thing to work out in your head the first time whereas then by the second baby, I was more comfortable with the idea of bottle feeding and then it was easier to step away. Yeah. Oh, good on you. That is awesome. Like, I'm so impressed by that. I'm gonna put a round of applause sound effect through that. But I will tell you on that gig, which was a bit of a venue that anyway, I was very dark for a reason, let's just say and I was literally in the bathroom, like, you know, pumping milk at one point and watching a cockroach crawling across the wall. And I thought, Here I am making food for my baby like I'm trying like I have the hand sanitizer I'm trying to keep everything is getting there's just a cockroach crawling across in front of my eyes. I thought oh my god, what am I doing? But having said that, yeah, exactly. You know that they they survive like, I don't know, I think we get really scared that they're not going to survive without us. And then when they do you go. Oh, actually, this is great. What else can I do now? Let's meet Well, I did anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Sean. Stone, opposing forces. And predictable unknown. Is you the sound? Man, I'll see you on Monday. Was it important to you that you got back to your pre I want to say you pray baby life, because it's never the same, but holding the things that are important to you. You're performing you're singing? Was that like, the top of the list? This is me. I'm going to get back to this as soon as I can. Yeah, very much. I'm, you know, I'm a relatively old mum, as they you know, as they go. So, I was 39 when I had the Oh 42 When When I had Hendrix, and one of the reasons that I hadn't started a family any earlier was that I was the bandleader like I, and the dynamic I think in the band because Felix, the musical director, and I was kind of all the admin bandleader side of things, we were very much Mom and Pop, you know, in kind of the structure of whoever we worked with. So we'd work with basically like five to seven piece bands. And for the most part, like, I felt like those people were my kids, you know, kind of dealing with the feelings and drama and scheduling and making sure everybody had clean clothes and you know, that kind of thing. Because also too, when you're traveling that as a whole other aspect of you know, there are a whole other host of issues that come up where you're kind of like living with people and they're living away from home and all of this so sometimes it was a lot to handle and I thought there's no way I could have a real baby that I need to take care of where this band is my baby, you know, and I also for myself, I If I didn't want to not be able to do everything that I was doing, and, and I knew having a baby would change my life, and I knew that there would be compromises that had to be made, and I was just not in any way ready for that. So, for that reason, too, it was really important to me to perform the whole time I was pregnant, you know, kind of up until the bitter end, it was like, I'm still, I'm still doing everything that I could do, you know, with the exception of bending to plug in cables, to a point where I just cannot get down there. I and so then after baby, it was like, Yeah, I'm back, I'm back. Nothing has changed, you know, of course, everything has changed. But that I really kind of had like a death grip, I think on that element of my identity. And that is, the thing that I think I struggle with most really, is I still get really frustrated that I'm not able to do all the things that I used to be able to do, there was a moment where I was thinking maybe that I would have to even give all this up just because of so unhappy with how that all had gone, it kind of coincided with just sort of what happened in the market here in Dubai, you know, for such a long time, Felix and I had been leading a band. And then some of the people we worked with, left the band because they wanted to move on. And also just in the market, the budgets just got a lot smaller. So all of a sudden, there weren't gigs for five or six people, it was no Oh, to Navy, we can stretch to three. And so I was left feeling. And I know it's an all makes sense, but you know, really feeling that I took my hands like off the crank to have a baby. And it all fell apart. Just like I knew it would, you know, and and it was. And so I felt like a lot of that was my fault. Like, we would have still had van and we would have still had gigs, we would have still been just as like, busy and happy had I not done this, you know. And so that took me a while to get over and to sort of you know, it's not all about me. Like there were also other factors at work just like the economy, that's not all my fault. Yeah, yeah, how you would feel like that, yeah, it's very high. And it's having to kind of work my head around to, to appreciate and, and adapted to what we do now. So. So that was a thing kind of as things shrunk, you know, we sort of went six, five, all the way down to it just being feeling SCI. And and then the gigs changed, you know, and COVID was a big part of that, too, that we've, you know, we were lucky enough for most of the last two and a half years to actually have that live entertainment has been allowed, there was about 10 months where it was, you know, kind of band completely. But because Felix and I were now a small unit, we were more affordable. And because we also moved away from playing the pop music, the B student big band. And instead, we were doing these, like, Jazzy, you know, covers but still have pop music. We found that there were a lot of and also to one of the rules that they only brought back fairly recently is that there was no dancing allowed anymore, because they didn't want people kind of like being close together mingling. So restaurants were allowed and restaurants could have music with the tables had to have social distancing, you know, and all of that. But then actually, we found ourselves really well positioned because we could just set up husband and wife like in a little corner and play these songs that would still have people sort of dancing in their seat, you know, by not getting up it was all at a quieter value. It was actually really popular, you know, and the other things that came with being in a restaurant like gigs that start at 730 I want to be in bed before midnight. Definitely. Certainly, because you know, I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning. No, and there's none of that, you know, slip until all hours so. So I've worked my way around to really appreciate it but it mentally it's there are times there has been a really hard slog you know, and it's probably been about three years of lots of talking to myself and re The assessing if I'm happy with where things are and where they're going, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not to say that there were, you know, not moments of serious self doubt. And, and us really questioning things, you know, even even at the very beginning of COVID, where they were closing the airports, right, you know, and, and gosh, our prime minister on TV, say Canadians come home, that was exactly what he said. So, of course, our parents are like, get on a plane and come and, and, you know, and we're just going well, do we, though, but we have we live here, you know what I mean, you have an apartment full of stuff. It's not just, it's not like we're on a holiday, you know. So that was a hard decision to sit tight and say, Okay, we're going to stay here. And staying in a place where, you know, there's no, kind of like social safety net for foreigners here. So there's no employment insurance, there's no child, like, kind of welfare thinks that you're on your own. So we had to just try to, you know, tighten our belts manage our savings to make them last as long as they, as they could, you know, borrow money when we had to, to get through it. And of course, the whole time, you're thinking like, is this it? Is this just the end? Because that was one of the things that was so hard about COVID to it was, maybe this is the end forever? Have in person performances, like the repairs were like, is this? Is it just all gone now? And if so, what are we hanging on for like, then we need to be pivoting and learning to be accountants, like, this is what has to happen. And so if they're, there have had so many long periods of just not knowing what the hell we're doing and what the hell's going on. Now, of course, in hindsight, like we see, okay, no, we were, we we made the right call to is to stick it out. And stay here, I think, actually, one of the big factors that, you know, factored into a stain was that I was pregnant. Because it was also I don't have a doctor in Canada, you know, my doctor is here, the quality of care is, is excellent here, and it was still really accessible, you know, whereas in Canada, they kind of like, locked everything down. And my sister was pregnant at the same time. So we really, so I have a nephew who's only three months older than Hendrix. So we really were kind of, you know, compare and contrast, like through the whole thing. And she was having tele health visits, and I'm like, no, no, I still go in for my, you know, twice a month ultrasound. Like, I'm still allowed to do that. So you know, I think that live streaming was really great to show us that we have a another way of, of reaching people. But I feel like it's not over, I feel sort of that, like our deciding is not over, you know, we really feel like we're here. We're here for the immediate future. But also, I personally know that I'm left with a lot of anxiety and kind of, like a form of, you know, PTSD, almost just the stress of the insecurity of the last two years is, is something that I really struggled to shake, to, to feel secure. Again, in as secure as you ever feel when you're a musician. I mean, I've spent the last 16 years of life on contracts and having like, zero, real financial security, you know, as many artists, you know, that's our life. Right. But this has added a whole like other layer to it, which is kind of permanently stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And that's thing. It's so it's so unknown, because it's like, I know what you mean, like, it's winter, next gig winds, you know, in normal times, but then it's like, Will there ever be gigs? Like, it totally changes the whole way? That you think about the whole thing, so yeah, I can I can empathize with you there because that's, yeah, and that's thing. It's COVID Still ticking along like things are still happening. And yeah, we just we have no idea where it's going and what's going to happen and yeah, it's full on in it's been a really, it's been a crazy time to be alive. You know what I mean? Like it's it is one of those hopefully once in a lifetime occurrences, you know, like a war like, something like that, that this is is you know, the thing we'll talk to our grandkids about, basically. Yeah, and, and, um, yeah, I'm still not sure how we're the lasting changes, you know, that this This will make like, one of the things that I was sort of surprised at is how quickly kind of the online side of things really like online performances really dissipated once in person performances were a thing again. Which is great, because I mean, hey, we're like, that's our job is to be in person performers were in the room. But, and in a way, it's fantastic. Because it thinks that it shows me that there's nothing that can replace being in the room with the people making the music, you know, it's just, you can't put that on a record, you can, you know, put that on on a screen, it just you have to be there. So good for us. Because that means people still want to see us in person, but also to is kind of stressful, because it's like, well, then, is there ever really a plan B for for us? Or is it always because certainly when we were live streaming, we made a little bit of money, but it was, you know, dribs and drabs, it was not like enough to sustain us so. So that's kind of where I am now. It's just to feel that over the long term, not sure how much longer we'll be able to kind of get away with doing what we're doing, you know, because if ever to the market changes again, and we're now not so well positioned for what people want, then that's tough. So I mean, this is like a story of all you know, performance artists also sample if you lead with me, me, me love you you know, that I find it Oh, so hard to let go. Change my mind when you say in your sweet baby one of the topics I really like to talk to guests on the show is about mom guilt. And I put I put it in air quotes because I recorded an episode with an artist this morning who had to Google what it meant because she literally did not experience it didn't know what it was. And I thought that was awesome. That's the first person I've met that hasn't known. So I'm really that was awesome. So that just goes to show the broad range of experiences that we have with this thing. What's your thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm the polar opposite of the poster child for Mom You're getting both ends of the spectrum today. Yeah, yeah, no, mom. Definitely. I mean, I have all kinds of, you know, anguish about things. You know, I have like, bandleader guilt and all this kind of things, too. So it's just another one that I add to my my collection. The mom guilt. Yeah. Where does it hurt? Oh, my gosh. It's, you know, I was listening to to yesterday, I was listening to the podcast you done with Ms. Coleman. And she was talking about it really for her seems to revolve around time. And I think that's, that's absolutely yet you know, feeling that that I'm not giving my boys enough time or feeling that I'm not giving them quality time. That one is, you know, certainly is trouble. I see. So I kind of the logistics of it. Right? You know that our gigs do finish even getting home at midnight, but you know, you're not to bed for 130 or whatever. So when someone comes because they've wet the bed and then the other ones crying the knees. So you know, I mean, there's lots of nights where we're still, you know, maybe up three or four times. So then starting the day at seven, it's like okay, well we've had like five broken hours of sleep, you know, and my husband and I share duties and he's up, you know, with as well. But still we both just find really, really tired in the mornings a lot and That's hard. So then I think I see too that with Hendrix, I don't spend the same time there's a lot more TV. A lot more TV. Do it would be like 12 minutes, one little episode, you know that we're trying to get off and we're working on colors and stuff to with Hendrix, I'm like, Dude, how do you not know any of your colors? Like how do you not know these animals? Right, because no one has taught us that that was the kind of thing with do that I would sit and I would do. And now with two of them, I'm just kind of like, oh, the TV's just gonna have to teach you something today, because I don't go to the realities. The reality but I feel guilty about it, you know, I feel guilty that I'm not kind of there for my second one, in the same way that I was for the, you know, for the first child. And, and it's, it's hard. When we get busy with work, you know, we're lucky to have maybe six or seven gigs a week, regularly, you know. So sometimes we'll only have one night off. And that's hard, where I'm giving them their bath and putting them to bed once a week. And just the feeling that like there's another woman who I love and trust, but somebody else does this all the time, who gives you nighttime cuddles. So those periods are hard, but they're also kind of necessary, sort of the reality here, like, in general, there are summer season, which is about five months long. workwise is quite quiet, you know, there's less tourists, a lot of the families that are here, if they can, they, they'll take their holiday, so they might be gone back to Australia or Canada or UK wherever for two, perhaps two months. So then they're not here eating in restaurants and going out. So we do have a lot less gigs in summer than we do in the over the winter period. And that's hard to the the feeling that we have to take all the work that we can get, you know, when it's offered. I don't find that we have a lot of balance, like either summer, and we're kind of, you know, to in our fingernails a bit going, Okay, hope we can we make it by the end of the month, or it's winter. And we're just like, you know, out every night kind of thing, just just working all the time not feeling dizzy the kids? And if so, and then I think it translates into other ways, right? You know, maybe there's too many trips to McDonald's or too many little presents, or little, you know, ice cream or whatever, because it's like, my, I feel like I don't see you enough. So I just want to just want to treat you. And there are other options. You know, like here in Dubai, there's quite a nanny culture, they don't really do babysitters, and of course, because all of us, like kind of the entire population are away from our families, right? You know, like, everyone has come from all over the world to work here. So you don't have sisters and aunts and uncles and brothers who can watch the kids, you know, so you have a nanny, and they're with you, all the time. And for many people, it's not our situation, but many people have many live with them that and we often have people saying that, but if you had your nanny live with you, she would get up in the morning with the kids and you know, hey, we think about it, but also to the Trade Office, then then I do lose that part, I do lose that access to my, my kids. And you know, there's a part of me, which feels like, if certainly if we had kids in Canada, we'd be doing it all on our own, you know, we would be up and we would be tired. And we would be just like everybody else, you know, and so trying to still may have that kind of Canadian life, but at the same time, the reality is like, I get to bed at two o'clock in the morning when I'm tired when I wake up at 630 So there's no escaping. Yeah, but that's the thing that I like. I haven't heard you say once in this, even though there's always stuff I mean, obviously thinking about, you know, the how the market is gonna go but you're not saying that I don't want to do this anymore. Because of, you know, the sacrifices, the compromises that I might be making with my children. You know what I mean? Like it's, this is what is important to you at the end of the day, you know, this is this is you This is in in your heart and soul and yeah, I hope I'm getting Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I quite recently have asked myself, you know, if this is if this is right for if this is right for me, if this is right for us, and it's sort of that feeling of a lack of balance, you know, I would like to feel more balanced and and I mean, also to that logistically, the reality of it is just financially, it makes more sense for the two of us to be going out and gigging. And for us to then hire a nanny than for me to stay home. But that's not the whole story, too. When I see things like, Oh, my two year old doesn't know his car, you know? And I'm like, well, maybe I need to be here, and be teaching him those things. And, and is that what's right for us now? And also to in the sense that, you know, we think someday we'll move back to Canada, probably, you know, in the next five years. And we know, we can't do this, when we're there. So there's also that to have, do we need to be putting in place, whatever kind of work, things need to happen, you know, does it obviously involve some kind of retraining or something? And is that what I should be spending my time doing now? So that we're kind of ready for the next step. But, you know, as he said, it's kind of the, it has always pulled me back in like, I can't imagine not putting on the makeup and doing the hair and going out and, and making music with Felix, you know, it's the the reason that we're that we're together. You know, he'll he'll occasionally have other gigs with other people. And as much as I love it, and I'm happy for him. And he needs more variety than I do. Like, I'm like, No, I'm happy to just work with you to know exactly what I'm doing to have someone who I rely on 100% I don't need any kind of instability. In my life. I'm good. I got it. Whereas he'll go, he's happy to jam and happy to take on new projects and learn new things like No, no, I don't have any of that desire. But when he does things, I'm happy for him. But also there's part of me that, like, it really doesn't like that, you know, that he's gone off and is having a life without? Yeah, I mean, we literally in 16 years, like we pretty much, you know, kind of spent every minute together for that time. So yeah, it's if for better, it's far better for us. You know, it really it really is. No longer gonna backtrack, just exam that you chose wrong. Now you go back and get over it Yeah, was gonna ask you what you've got coming out. But I know, I've I don't know how to ask that. Because you've got gigs all the time, haven't you? Like? Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, because I had a look at your page of all your shows. It's like, oh, my gosh, you like that. And then, so like, it's just, it just flows on and on and on. Like you said, you have this portion of the year where it's full on full on full on, and then it's the little break time. So yeah, you just sort of ride the waves. And, yeah, it's like, you know, we describe it as a marathon out here. Right? You know, because it doesn't ever really stop. And which is great. Is you know, as you said, like it does have high season and low season to it. So, for us coming up we're getting into this season probably won't start really full on until October. Which is okay, because Theo is starting school in September. So he's never been to nursery, he was kind of about to go to nursery and then it was COVID. So then he stayed home for that two years with us. Which is a whole other like, Mom, thing my sister laughs at me, she's really okay with sending her eldest to school and I just choked all the time. I'm like, buying, you know, glue sticks and googly eyes, like crying in the grocery store. filling his school list. I, you know, he needs a uniform and I'm kind of dreading going to the store. I just don't I can't like deal with seeing him in that little uniform for the first time. So yeah. So I think actually, it'll be okay that he, you know, we'll start that and we're not super busy yet. So we'll have time to kind of transition him into that and transition us because he has to get up even earlier for us to drive him to school. You know, Oh, it's so I'm nervous about it. Because I think like, already, I'm tired. And already, it's not amazing for me, you know? How is that going to be when now we have to be up even earlier five days a week. And then when I have more gigs, how's it all gonna work? So I'm, I am really nervous about this fall season, coming in and figuring that we will just have to figure it out, as you know, as it goes along. But for us, musically, we have just started our first gig in like, four years with a full band. So that's been exciting for us to actually have, you know, bass, drums and keys again, because most of the time, and although we say most of the time as a duo, Felix is the band. So he is a guitarist, but he does all the drum programming, we work the drum machine that he plays Live, and then he does bass loops and guitar loops on top of that, and then he's doing back vocals, and he's saying the vocals, I'm just singing. I'm playing a little bit tambourine here and there. And then doing all though, like, admin stuff on whatever social media time. Yes, I do. That's all me. But, but so to have a full band is musically is really exciting again, logistically is difficult. It's kind of like, oh, yeah, and people's scheduling and issues and all this. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so it's great that we're working on that working in a new venue to so getting adjusted to, what did they want? What does the audience want? What do we think is going to work? We've just been asked to perhaps put together a gypsy jazz trio, which would be new for us, we do a little bit of gypsy jazz, but not like full on things. So trying to see if that's something that we can that we can manage. And aside from that, yeah, just mostly have work either as a duo or as a trio. We do have a few different keyboard players that we that we work with. And yeah, most of most of our gigs are restaurant or kind of restaurant lounge, this new full band one is the first one that we seen a long time where people really there's sort of like a dance floor space for them, you know. So that too, has meant Okay, well, we kind of need to rework and bring back in some of that repertoire that we haven't really bothered with for last few years because they weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll just lead up by Christmas. Usually our week of Christmas is absolutely nuts been rammed, which is I just find crazy challenging. It's with two kids. So also trying to find time to steal like, create the magic of Christmas and, and it's Theo's birthday, he's a Christmas baby. So he's also kind of like finding a way to make him also birthday, maybe birthday party and, and playing, you know, Christmas Eve, usually we'll do two gigs. And Christmas day, we'll do two gigs. And every night of the week and everything. So it is, it's a tough, it's a tough time of year for me. I mean, you want to talk mom gills is kind of astronomical and have our nanny, you know, reading the Christmas story, and I really struggled with that this last year, you know, that we, we move Christmas as we need to, you know, like we celebrated on the day that we don't have to get up and go to a gig. So we did it on the 26th this year, but that still meant that on Christmas night, like she's putting out cookies for Santa and getting them in their pajamas. And I was just kind of all over the place that night. Like it was to the point where Felix even said to me, he said, you know, do we cancel that gig like you're this upset, you know, in the weeks leading up to it that you're not that you're not going to be able to be there and you know, it's a tough call right like these well paid holiday gigs you know, they're not at our usual rate. They're better than the usual rate and, and having to and maybe it'll be different every year. You know, maybe I won't make the same choice this year as to am I okay with her just sending photos of look, they're in their Christmas jammies. I'm sort of toggling between sets and then going okay, here we go, you know, celebrating Christmas with other people who are there with their families also too, which is just like that. You know, really hard on my heart and, and I, you know, I think maybe in later years it if we're still kicking around and doing this, it will be the kind of thing where maybe they can come and be with us, you know, on the on those occasions just be at those games. But right now there's just so little that, you know, and their bedtime is still early and all of that. So it's, it's, I know that it's better for them to be at home where they're well taken care of and she's doing as much of the tradition is as I have, like, left instructions were hard to do. But, but it's hard like Felix and I both are moms or elementary school teachers. So they had summers off, they had two weeks off at Christmas. So we both kind of have these very strong like holiday traditions of the families always did this and that and Christmas Eve was this kind of celebrating and then Christmas Day was that kind of celebrating. And for us we're just absent, you know, on those times. So find hope Yeah, find the holidays hard. But you know, in the other sense like we're still financially recovering from COVID so it's work work work, work, work work, work much as we can Yeah, you just sort of do what you can at the time that you make the decisions as you go and like you said next year you might feel different and then a year after you might feel different so it's like Yeah, going with what you need at the time. Yeah. And trying not to feel guilty I really love talking to you today. It's it's such a routine energy and I like have you got videos on YouTube where we can watch you perform, I want to watch you perform like your vibe is so welcoming and energizing is like awesome to have a say on stage. You know what I mean? What if you do want to see the videos with feel of which honestly, I swear there's like at full length shows there but they're on our Facebook page. So you can feel free to like scroll through the years. Seriously, just check the last five minutes because that's the start. You can skip ahead. It's fine. We're used to everyone else like tuning out and then coming back five minutes to the hour. I'm University thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum now tomorrow we live saw so simple if you lead with me love you used to be the one always man trying struggling still good seem so sad with you maybe. Monroe I love to also sample if you lead with me love me for me design but love you You know that I find it oh so hard to let go change when you say in your sweet baby start let's let them roll while we while we live in today in some some so simple if you learn to be with me they're gonna love you ever decide that you're gonna love you