Search Results

Sally Rippin Australia's highest selling female author + illustrator S2 Ep71 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts Sally Rippin is a best-selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her 3 children. Sally is Australia’s highest-selling female author and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults and adults. Her widely popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than ten million copies in eighteen countries. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in South-East Asia. As a young adult she studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai and Hangzhou, which inspired her first novel Chenxi and the Foreigner. which she started writing when she was 19. Sally loves to write stories with heart and includes characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally has written and illustrated books for babies, children, young adults and now adults. Sally's books for children include the popular Billie B Brown and Hey Jack! series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released, called Wild Things, it is about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don’t. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school; a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time. She couldn’t have been more wrong. Her son’s dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers, and labelled as ‘difficult’ by an education system that couldn’t easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was – almost – too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September Sally released a picture book, co-written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hull, called Come Over To My House. Inside, readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as Deaf or disabled. The first of its kind, this picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and home. Resources for parents Find Sally website Podcast website / instagram Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which is podcast is recorded on welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. My guest this week is Sally rippin. Sally is a best selling Australian author and illustrator living in Melbourne with her three children. Sally was born in Darwin and grew up in Southeast Asia. As a young adult. She studied traditional Chinese painting for three years in Shanghai. And this inspired her first novel Chen Zhi and the foreigner, which she started writing when she was just 19. Sally is Australia's highest selling female author, and has written over 100 books for babies, children, young adults, and now adults. Her wildly popular books are beloved across the globe, and have sold more than 10 million copies in 18 countries. Sally loves to write stories with heart, and characters that resonate with children, parents and teachers alike. Sally's books for children include the popular Billy B Brown, and hijack series and the highly acclaimed children's novel Angel Creek. Sally's first book for adults has just been released called wild things. It's about how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. Sally set out to write the book that she needed when her son first started school, a mix of personal experience, research and interviews with specialists, advocates and neurodivergent adults. When Sally discovered her child was struggling to read, she assumed it would sort itself out over time, but she couldn't have been more wrong. Her son's dyslexia and ADHD went unsupported for years, leaving him further and further behind his peers and labeled as difficult by an education system that couldn't easily cater to neurodivergent kids. By the time Sally learned how to advocate for her child, it was almost too late. Sally's hope is that this book will help readers understand and better support neurodivergent kids to thrive in a world where they may not easily fit. In September, Sally released a picture book co written with musician, author and disability advocate Eliza Hall called come over to my house. Inside readers are welcomed into the homes of seven families who identify as deaf or disabled. The first of its kind. This picture book is not only important for disabled people to see themselves represented authentically, but also to start useful conversations in the classroom and our home. The music you'll hear on today's podcast is from my ambient music, New Age trio called LM joy and that comprise comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. Thank you again for listening. And I hope you enjoyed today's chat with Sally. Welcome to the podcast. Sally. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome you and to meet you today. It's really exciting to be here. Thanks, Alison. You're a best selling author. That's pretty exciting. And you've been writing for 25 years you've written 100 books. That's quite prolific, isn't it? Like? I mean, my max four books a year give or take? Yeah, well, look, there have been some really busy periods. But also, I guess what I probably want to say and I think a lot of artists out there would relate to this is that I've been published for 25 years, but I've been writing since I was little Yeah, I was a kid that was always in a corner reading books drawing, making my own books. So yeah, so I think I think I'm sure you imagine that that's something that a lot of us would say and I suppose it's the same for you too, is that it still feels a little bit surreal for me, and I don't think of myself as a six successful author or a best selling author because really, all I'm doing is exactly what I did when I was a little kid and I get paid for it and I can do it all day every day. So it doesn't Feel like a job. It just kind of feels like this incredible dream come true. Yeah, that is awesome, isn't it to be able to just literally live out your dream every day? And yeah, cuz that's something I do talk to my guests about, like, how did it start? Where did it come from? Were you influenced as a child growing up? Did you have people around you that were really heavily into pork? Yeah, definitely. So we moved around a lot as kids, because of my dad's job we moved about every two years. And we mainly grew up in Southeast Asia a little bit of time in England as well. But the most important aspect of that is that we would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms on airplanes in airports. And this was long before the internet, or iPads or anything like that. So my mom would have to give us books to read. And when we had run out of books, because they're heavy to carry around, she would just give us pencils and paper, and we'd make our own books. And I really credit that along with a couple of fantastic English teachers and art teachers as being the support that gave me the confidence to think that it was something more than just something I would do at my craft table. But something that I could protect, potentially do that other people would want to look at as well. So I think I was really, really lucky that I had adults around me that believed in me supported in me, teachers that would read my stories out in class or at teachers that would really push me to go further. So yeah, I think that was a huge part of of me just having the confidence to go ahead. Having said that, my dad wasn't so supportive of me turning out to be an artist. For him. That was a little bit like saying, I was dropping out. Because I was good at school. And so and he he went to a very, not a very wealthy school in Adelaide, you're in South Australia, I just saw and he was the only kid in his year level to go on to university was quite a rough school he went to, and he went on to be a civil engineer. So he worked really hard to put his daughters to a private school. And when I told him I was going to be an artist, he was like, he just couldn't believe it. It was like you're going to waste that private school education unbecoming. Inadequate him that was like saying I was just dropping out. But he's so proud of me now, you know, and I think, partly, it was encouraging courage meant of my mum that supported me. But I also think there was part of the grist to the mill. That was important coming from my dad, too, because I think I wanted to prove something to him to myself that, no, it wasn't just this kind of alternative way of saying that I didn't want to go and get a job. It was actually odd is that people that work hard, you know, they're dedicated to what they do. And, you know, and potentially they can make a living from it. So in some ways, maybe if I'd only had support, and no one kind of with some nobody to push up against. Maybe I wouldn't have driven myself so hard. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it like that balance between the two? It's almost like the devil's advocate sort of spear you on saying, oh, you can't do this. And you're like, hang on a sec. Yeah, I can. Yeah, I'm so stubborn, too. So if you tell me, this makes me want to do more? That's funny. minute talking about your art teachers and your school teachers, I've been reading your book, wild things, thank you for sending me the copy too, because I have really resonated and I will talk a bit more about that in the future, but in the future of his podcasts in a moment. But yeah, when you say you teach it, it was like she was with a capital A, it was like a proper subject, not something just to sort of bridge between, you know, science or maths or, you know, the serious subjects and putting them in air quotes. And that's massive, isn't it to have that support of someone? We can take it seriously, like you said, you can make a career out of it. It does take hard work like anything, but you know, to have that option, you know, presented to you in in your sort of formative years when you're so influenced by things. Absolutely. And I was very influenced by her too. When I look back on it. I think she was probably only quite young at the time. Well, there are when you're a teenager, anyone who's old. I think it was her first teaching year. And she was very alternative. She was quite tall and thin, and she was always dressed all in black. She was you know, quite goth looking. And she was a bit smelly and unapproachable. And so any of the students that did kind of just turn up to art class and treat it like it was just such a slack off period. She really treated them with a lot of disdain, but because she could see I was really into it. She really took me under her wing and she would take me to exhibitions of contemporary artists on weekends. Use me to Hockney. She took me in a hot me exhibition. Some other weird Melbourne artists with weird kind of colourful stuff with dead my stuck on the fact that she was so excited and so inspired by that, and also that she saw something in me as well, you know, she could see that, that that mattered to me. And so even though I was in this very conservative mainstream girl school, I think she just liked the fact that there was that little ounce of rebel that was just the, the grain of all good artists. Just pushing up against things just Yeah. When you were talking about your teacher there reminded me of I had two teachers, their husband and wife, and they were just the most laid back hippie people you'd ever made. And some of the most interesting music I ever listened to. Was in Mr. Vans class used to put on like, America, I think they were called like that. The Horse With No brain or whatever that we'd saw. And my son actually is just on his Spotify playlist, it popped up and I'm just like, oh, the memories. Back from the song. It was just, it was bizarre. But yeah, I love the horses no name. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah. It's funny. Yeah. You knew what I meant, though. So that was good lace. Kind of uniform better, actually. Me All right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, because there's part of going through adolescence that you want to separate from your parents. And so if you're lucky enough that you do have other adults around you, that are doing interesting things. They can be extraordinary role models, and they can really set you on to quite alternative paths to the ones that your parents had laid out for you. And so they're really vital having good role models around you at that age. That's a really good point. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Your first book was a book that was actually written for young readers a bit of a mishmash in the way I built my career. Because I guess, because I hadn't grown up around artists, that wasn't something that I had considered was going to be the direction I'd go down. And so I read a lot, I drew a lot, I had great teachers, but I didn't actually know any grown up artists. And so I've just always written and drawn for myself, but really, I guess I'd always kind of thought that that was just something that was my own passion, my own drive, but I went to live in China for a few years. So my dad got a job there. And I went to study over there while he was living there, studying traditional Chinese painting. And at the same time, I was writing lots of letters home to friends to really try and explain what this extraordinary city of Shanghai was, like, at a time that had just come out of the Tiananmen Square riots, it was transitioning from very conservative, communist values to more progressive values. And I was in the art school. So all the arts students were part of all those, those demonstrations, and they were the ones that were really out there, you know, pleading for change, and wanting to open up the country much more to the west. And so I was writing all these letters home, and eventually, you know, there, I started to find to make them into short stories. So I'd always written stories, but I found that this was a way that I could take all the things that were happening, but also kind of almost elaborate on them and, and potentially put in some history and some characters. And so this is what just in a really weird way, eventually became my first young adult novel. And I was 19 when I started writing it, so I didn't really know what it was going to be either. But once again, I would say throughout my life, I've been blessed to come across incredible mentors. And so I, first of all, how did I get into that? That's right. I thought it was going to be a novel for adults. And I went to see I thought I'll penguin publishing I've heard of them. I know what I looked them up and where they were. And I managed I don't know how I managed to do it. This was a long time ago, to get an appointment with a publisher there who's a wonderful woman who's now become a close friend called Erica Wagner. And she had a look at what I was writing. She said, I think this is young adult Did you know I don't think this is adult and first, I was bit insulted at all what you're telling me, I'm a teenager, I was like I was 22 or something. But then she gave me three books. She gave me a book called Sleeping Dogs by Sonya Hart that she gave me looking for Alibrandi by Melina Marchetta. And she gave me peeling the onion by Wendy Orr. And I took those books, and I devoured them. And I thought, Oh, my goodness, this is young adult literature. I mean, I'm interested. And I realized how much it was pushing up against boundaries, and how much it really was exploring that really tumultuous time of adolescence. And it wasn't the teenage literature that I grown up reading, which was all about periods and boyfriends and pimples, that was really, really pushing the boundaries. So I was working on that. At the same time, I was still drawing and painting. And the first book I actually did manage to get published was a picture book. But in the background, I was working on that young adult novel. So even though that wasn't the first thing I had published, I was certainly that was the first thing I was writing. So everything kind of arrived in, in succession after that. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's an awesome story. And I'm sorry, I'm, I haven't read that book. I'm not actually, I'm not a massive reader. I just I don't know, I have, I find it difficult to sit for long periods of time and read. And I know, that's really bad to say, but I do make an effort when I, you know, really want to read something. That yeah, it's like, you've got the two aspects going together, like the children are becoming, you know, young adults, they're growing up, and then you've got that change of China at that time. So that's a really sort of awesome combination. Really, did you sort of realize that at the time, you're really onto something with that, I think I had a gut feeling that I was because my I had a couple of best friends at the time. One of them was a Chinese student, a man called Gen Z. And he was very politically minded. And he also took me into parts of China that I may not have been able to access on my own as a white Westerner. And then the other person who was a big influence on me, ended up becoming my boyfriend, and then eventually the father to my two older kids. And he was also very kind of rebellious and curious and seeking adventures. So I had those two really great role models to really push me outside of my comfort zone. But also, I was really able to see what it was like to be young Chinese person, particularly young adults growing up in China, as well as seeing the difference to how we were treated as expatriates, and the privileges and doors that were open to us. So I don't think I could have written that book, had I not had some really close Chinese friends and being part of the student body, had I only just mixed in the expatriate circles, I think it would have been very superficial. And so I was actually able to feel what the changes were happening in China from the perspective of other young people. And the danger that a lot of them were under even sometimes by just being friends with Westerners at the time was dangerous for them. So So those things I was aware of, and those things I tried to put into the novel, probably in a fairly naive way. But extraordinarily, several years later, I met another incredible mentor, the publisher text, Penny Houston, and she had read that book, and it had gone out of print. And she said, look, I think this was fantastic novel. And it's such a shame, it's gone out of print, why don't we give it another go. And so with her support, I did write another version of that book and went a little bit deeper. Now I was a bit older, a little bit more politically savvy, I was able to really understand what the situation had been like, with some perspective in the way that might have been. So I had the combination of both being submerged in it, but then being able to write it with a bit of perspective to later on. So yeah, I'm still really proud of that. You know, it's, it was you know, when I consider that I started writing it at 90. I look at that nothing. Yeah, well, you did that. Amazing. I did a residency in China, at a very prestigious International School. And the Australian librarian there just surreptitiously made sure that book was available on shelves for young students can change lives. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing in a country like that, where things are so heavily controlled, and, and, yeah, to be able to sneak something like that under the radar view. Awesome. Amazing. Do you keep up with what's going on in China now? Like having been, you know, immersed in it? Do you sort of keep an eye on how things are tracking over there? Do you still have friends over there? Yeah, less. So. For a couple of reasons. One, my dad lived there up until recently, so I was Background, visiting him quite a lot. And because all of the people he worked with were local Chinese, it was very easy to get an internal perspective of what was going on in the world. But since he's moved back to Australia, plus he is married to this fabulous Italian lady who speaks fluent Chinese. And so she was very much part of the cultural. The cultural hub of Shanghai. In fact, she had a newsletter that was called Maria's choice, and it would tell you which exhibitions you should go to which films you should go to. And she'd actually worked down now on film sets with Chinese film crews, as well. So for example, resolutie film The Last Emperor, she worked on that one. So both of those were people, my dad and my stepmother were a great source of information. I mean, obviously, it's not the same as being a Chinese person growing up in China, but everybody they worked with was Chinese. So it felt like it was pretty authentic. But they've moved back, Reg. More recently, I'm still in touch with Gen Z, but he lives in Australia now. And most of my Chinese friends, it's very hard to communicate with because I can speak Mandarin, but I can't read and write it. So unless we're phone calls, you know, having phone calls, which we don't really do more. It's really hard to keep track of where they all are, and where they're at what they're up to. But a couple of them I've kept in touch with. Yeah, that's interesting. It's like it's the country that's always fascinated me. And I had a friend that she was a school teacher here, and she went over for 12 months, doing like teaching in a what do you call them? An international school? Yeah. And she, she loved it. But it's the sort of place I think I'd get quite daunted by it. Like, I don't know, it feels a bit. Like, if you did the wrong thing, you'd feel like you're gonna get in big trouble or something, you know, like it feels. Maybe that's just for me, because I've never been, yeah, well, that that's the thing with the often those great experiences that you can have, like your friend did is that when you are employed there, and you're an expatriate, you do get to live and integrate within the country to an extent, but you're also very protected by your expatriate passport. And I don't think Chinese or I'm happy to be quoted, said, I'm wrong on this, but I don't think Chinese people will have anybody who was born outside the country ever recognized as a Chinese citizen, I think, potentially, maybe you're from Taiwan or Hong Kong, then that, obviously. But everybody else kind of has this very privileged surface existence. And we even knew that it students that, you know, when we're going out to nightclubs, or places like that, often, our Chinese friends wouldn't be allowed in these would be local nightclubs. And we were and so it's a kind of an fact, to my dad's credit. That's why he ended up moving us out of Asia, because we were I was doing High School in Hong Kong. And he didn't want us to live our whole lives, kind of having this sense of entitlement. I think just knowing that just because of the color of our skin that we've had become a bit untouchable. And then the rules didn't apply to us that they did for the local people that we, you know, we grow up often with mates. And he didn't want us to think that that was the world's normality. So he wanted us to have a much simpler lifestyle, you know, mind you, he still put us into a private school in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. But he didn't want us to think that, that we had this assumption that everybody lived this way. And then suddenly, as expatriates, most people do live a very wealthy protected bubble like life. Yeah, you know, and, and often, the darker sides of China are even withheld from locals as well, you know, often it's really hard even for locals to unless they make really good local friends. You know, a lot of that is hidden from them. And so a lot of their people with disabilities aren't allowed on the streets or a lot of crime is shut down very quickly to have very tough measures on crime. So if anything, you're safer there than you are in Australia, because they don't you know, Chinese are very proud and they want the country to appear a certain way to outsiders eyes. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I sort of didn't think we only want to ask you lots of other things, but I'm not going to become very politically, the Chinese if you get quite political so we'll just say thank you for sharing your thoughts. Sorry, your book wild things, which is awesome, by the way. And again, thank you for sending it to me. It's called Wild Things, how we learn to read and what can happen if we don't. And like I said earlier, I really resonated with this because my son, he's got some learning issues he hasn't been diagnosed with for ADHD, but the way they described him and it was interesting in your book, you've got to pick like a little thing about this describing the different types of ADHD. He's got the inattentive, distractibility type. So as I was reading this, so many times, I just went, Oh, my God, that's, that's how I felt, or that's what I should have done, or, you know, all this sort of stuff. So, rather than me keep blabbing on, can you share, in your own words, the inspiration behind your book? Yeah, thank you. It's lovely to hear how you've resonated with it. And that is partly why I wrote this book. So this is a scary thing for me to do. I've written for children for many, many years. Who am I to think I can write a book for grownups. But I, my son was struggling. And somehow, I let myself believe it would all kind of work itself out over time. So it was quite clear from regret about grade two, that he was struggling to acquire the reading skills that his two older brothers had easily been able to do. He did have a wonderful teacher in prep, who alerted me to the fact she thought he might have some reading issues. But I completely dismissed her I just thought, oh, you know, he's in prep, you know, they should just be playing with sand and water, what's the what's the issue here. And so I let it go for too long. And I kept thinking, Well, maybe he just won't be a reader. And so I'll write books that he wants to read. And so I wrote the Billy v. Brown series and tested them out on him. And then I wrote the hit page X series. And I figured, you know, they'll always be something that will engage him, I don't need to worry too much about reading, you know, my two older boys love reading, I love reading, maybe he just won't be a reader. What I hadn't taken to an account is how much reading affects everything. So if you can't read, there's very little in school that you can engage with, and you lose the capacity to express yourself to articulate your thoughts. And, of course, your self esteem becomes completely crushed. So within primary school, he managed to get by because he had lovely teachers who could see the good parts of him and make him feel okay about himself. But of course, once he got to high school, the wheels fell off. And it was really, really hard to get him the support he needed we'd up partly because somehow the school didn't want to believe that, that this was going to be an issue for him, that he'd got all the way to the end of year seven before I realized he wasn't even having working. So now we're in year eight, and his self esteem is worse. And so now, of course, his behavior is impacted. And so he's becoming a kid that has to get attention somehow. So He does it by by playing up or by doing dumb things to bond with peers. And so now he's becoming a kid, that's a problem in the class. So we're now getting up to year nine, and he has now completely disengaged from school, and also feeling like teachers and on his side. So by now I'm in an absolute panic, because I spend my life, you know, traveling around the world, talking to kids, and making them feel good about themselves and talking to parents about how we acquire reading, and how to get your reluctant reader reading. And I thought, I've obviously missed something here. You know, there's, there's a reason why my son has got this far. And he's going downhill fast. So I thought, I've got to research this. And so I just started asking people tell me how you teach your child to read, tell me what's going on for your child, I started tapping into support groups. And all of a sudden, I found this whole lot of information out there. And I couldn't understand how I hadn't been able to access it before. It's all out there. But it's really hard to find. And I was talking to lots of parents like yourself, who was who was saying, you know, my child struggling in school, or my child hasn't been able to pick up reading skills or, or whatever, and I. So once I tapped into these support groups, one of them suggested that I also had them assessed for ADHD, which is a very common thing among their children. And I really just took him to the doctor just to you know, write that one off, I thought, oh, no, he's not ADHD because somehow people have got in their mind that it's just those noisy ratty little kids that paid well wasn't like that. He was a daydreamer. Who was swayed he was, you know, wanting to please. And so sure enough, he was diagnosed with ADHD and so I just thought, how is this All coming to me now. And now he's 15, he's disengaged, he feels terrible about himself. And he's talking about dropping out of school. So then I went around to all my friends. And I said, Did you know this? So you've got to know this or, and I met more and more people like you that were saying, you know, wanting to share their stories, too. So I thought, I've got to put all this into one place. Not let everybody else I know, go through all the struggles that my son and I had to. And so I thought I'd go to my publisher, and I'll talk to her about this idea. I really didn't think that she'd take it on. And she said, Yep, we'll do it. But it took me two years to find the contract. Because I wasn't convinced I could do it. And the biggest part of it was just getting over that self doubt that I think a lot of us, do you know that? You know, who am I to think I can do this? You know, I'm not an expert in the field. So I did a huge amount of research, read some really dense books on neuroscience and a lot of books on how we acquire reading skills, or what happens in our brains. Talk to a whole lot of experts. The amazing thing about writing a nonfiction book is you can call up anyone, I'm writing a book, can I interview, you get my diarrhea. I spoke to the most amazing people, I spoke to this extraordinary woman over in the US who had actually changed, who had actually changed the schooling system that her child was a part of by just getting a whole lot of other parents on board. So when you tap into these support groups, they're extraordinarily powerful, and they're emotionally charged. So there were so many people wanting to support me in writing this book, that the days when I thought I can't do this, I've got to drop it. Let's just go back to writing for kids. I thought about those people. And I thought I can't let him down. All these people have already shared their stories, or these people have already given me their time and their expertise. I just have to keep pushing through. I did. And even when I handed the first draft to my publisher, I was sure she'd say are no actually look, you know, I'm not so sure about this. But she loved it. And the thing that she responded to the most strongly was the memoir elements of it. And she said, you know, all the scientific stuff is important. But the stuff that I really, that really sticks with me is all the personal stuff. So of course, that's where you feel the most vulnerable. And so I just kept expanding on those bits. And then in the very later drafts, running all of them passed my son to check that he was comfortable with all of them as well. And so interesting stuff came out of that as well. Because when I'd read something out that had happened five years ago, he was now older, unable to say actually, that wasn't my experience of it. So he was able to then share what had been like for him. So it became almost this beautiful combinate this beautiful moment where I was able to actually understand my son more by doing the research into this book. And this was all done during lockdown as well. So we spent a lot of time together. Had I not done the research for that book? I don't know where my son and I would be at now because we've become very disconnected. I had become really just full blown anxiety stressed out, not knowing what was going on what was normal, what wasn't. And now I've got this beautiful young man in my life who has this extraordinary unique brain. kooky? Yeah, is really beautiful, empathetic, and feeling good about himself, you know, after feeling so crushed by the system, I think, all that time working on the book and running lots of it past him. He feels good about himself. He knows that. Yeah, he's different. That's cool. Yeah. Does he does he kind of also think Can he see that by sharing like you sharing his, in your experience that it will help others? Is that something that he sort of takes in as well? Yeah, look, I think he's probably still a little bit young to really get the implications of that. He's only 19 and a half. So I have said to him again, and again, look, by us being vulnerable, and sharing our stories, potentially, we can, you know, empower people to be able to support their kids better. So they don't have to go through the same things as that. So he understands the intent, whether he really understands it in the way that I think, potentially only a really panicky struggling parent could really understand it. Who knows. You know, I think when you're a teenager, you're the center of your universe, you don't really know or under Oct nor should you know how your behavior is impacting the people around you. You know, I one of the things I recognized is how much I projected onto him, you know, how much I saw him as responsible for my anxieties rather than me responsible for my anxiety. And that was a huge sub. Most of the growth has come from me, letting go of who I thought my son was actually really working out who he is? Towards the end of the book, you've got a chapter called things I wish I'd done differently. But one of the points is, except your kid is different. So that's a pretty powerful thing. Like you said, you've got that shift, did you also find then accept yourself to in that you can only, like, he can't blame yourself, you can't beat yourself up. You can only do what you can do and accept that this is, it is what it is kind of thing without giving up, you know what I mean, but accepting that you can't go back and change things or that kind of thing. Was that something for you? as well? Yeah, I think that's a really nice way to put it. I, I know that I'm quite hard on myself about it. And particularly because it feels like and I might be wrong, that everybody else seems to know how to do this advocacy, parenting stuff. And in all these support groups, you know, they're really, it looks like they all know what they're doing. They're starting much younger than I did, people seem to be so much more aware and onto these things. And I felt like, somehow I just didn't, didn't get that memo. And so, I do feel like I could have done better. And I do feel like my son's trajectory would have been very different. Had I done differently. Having said that, I don't think I was very supported in the education system. You know, there were times when I felt like, the things that, you know, I was getting assessments done, and I would take them to the school, and they'd be filed away, and nothing would be done about it. Or I would say, you know, I'm, I have a concern here, and I kind of just be dismissed, you know, teachers and and, and it'll be fine. It'll sort itself out. And first of all, what I want to say is, that's absolutely not the fault of teachers is that one of the things that teachers who I've also interviewed for the book have told me is that, you know, they can't be expected to recognize and identify what kid needs, what you know, what issues they may have, whether it's they haven't had breakfast, or whether their parents are splitting up, they have a mental health condition or they neurodivergent you know, they're not counselors, and they're already under so much pressure. But I guess I had thought that that was something that the school will be able to handle and I recognize now that is, you know, as hard as it is, it really does fall back at least on the parent to be the advocate for the child and to educate themselves. So I definitely could have done a better job of that. But I also want to say that it's never too late and this is the thing I'm really proud of you know that there were times when my son was sneaking out at night and getting up to all kinds of stuff when and I was single parenting and making a lot of these decisions on my own. And there were a lot of times where I thought I can't do this I actually am not up for it I don't have the skills but there's no choice you no one else no one else is gonna do it for you. I just had to step up and I had to recognize that yeah, I stuffed up in the early days I hadn't done enough but today is the day we start work you know roll your sleeves up. Yeah, let's see. Skilled I read a lot I got a lot of support but I also did a couple of years of counseling costs as well and I learned to become a better listener so I learned to actually listen more talk less so I could get to know really what my son needed Yeah and he's so proud to put this young man in the world Yeah well that's that's so lovely yeah this with Alex he I feel the same in lots of different ways of your story that Alex he was always the kid that was like distracts others can't stay on task, you know, every single year level. Whenever we get his report or we talk to the teachers, it was the same thing and I kept saying to my husband, but what do we do? Like we've tried all these strategies about you know, different some teachers were really good at giving him more focus and they'd have put a special desk near them and, and sort of every now and then they you know, he'd be staring off into space and they bring him back and If others would just completely disown him, because they'd be like, well, that kid doesn't want to learn, I'm not gonna have anything to do with it, you know, and I can understand, you know, my backgrounds in early childhood education. I've been a kindy tech, not kindy teacher, but kindy worker and a childcare worker for nearly 10 years. So I get, I get what it's like to be in an educational setting, perhaps not exactly what schools like, but I, you know, I have a bit of an understanding, and I don't like same thing, I don't blame teachers, they've got enough on their plate as it is. And so I'm saying to my husband, we keep getting the same things, the same things like, what do we do about it? And everyone was like, oh, no, he'll grow out of it. Bla bla bla. And looking back. Now I know, there were signs they were all looking us in the face. But no one ever said, Have you ever thought about this? Have you ever thought about having intested ever yet, you know, and it was like you were just left to flounder because you don't know what you don't know. Being our first child, first child going into the world, you think people are going to tell you things, you know, people who know stuff should help us. But if they don't, then you have no idea what you're doing. And it wasn't till he got to high school. Same thing with your son, that literally the wheels fell off. And that's when we got the help we needed and we think started looking out for him. Because we actually have the tools and the people around us that could suggest things. So it's like, everyone just thought he just grow out of it. Like the little boy just playing around, he'll be fine. And he did to a degree, but also think he liked to hide it as well. I think he got really clever like your son, I think people that have have challenges get very, very, they're very intelligent people who are able to mask things and do things in other ways and teach themselves in other ways and learn other ways. Yeah, I think that's such a great way of explaining it. Because, you know, and this is why I think the more we talk about it, the better it is. And what we have in this generation that our parents didn't have, and certainly not before them, is social media. So now we have the capacity to hear marginalized voices tell their own story. So I don't know if you saw the Press Club talk that Mr. shiana gave me and that being a late diagnosed ADHD, I follow a lot of neurodivergent activists on social media, I tap into disability support groups. So we have that now we have the capacity to educate ourselves, and look at behavior as just being in information. Whereas before all these kids, like my dad also had a terrible time at school, he now suspects he's potentially neurodivergent himself, my younger sister as well, is really convinced she's dyslexic, they gave her glasses, you know, people didn't really know. So these people grow up feeling terrible about themselves, and some of them will go on and be resilient adults. Some of them don't, some of them end up in, you know, justice systems, because they can engage in school, they hang out with other people who have issues engaging with schools for a myriad of reasons. And they go down a really dark pathway, and often don't come out the other side of it, like our kids are lucky enough to do. And that's why if I have anything come out of having published this book, I hope that it starts conversations like already, you and I are starting to talk about the experiences that children have gone to through, I'm getting several messages a week from people I've never met, saying, This is my story, you know, or this is what's going on for my kid. And I think this is how we make change, we shine a light on all these things. So that then the burden is not placed on individuals, not just on the teacher or the parent. But everybody knows, ah, that kid, you know, maybe has this particular learning style. So let's find a support network for them in this way, or one of the most brilliant educators who was knighted for his ideas. So Ken Robinson has an extraordinary TED Talk where he talks about this young girl in the classroom. And this would have been back in the 70s, I imagine who couldn't sit still and everybody thought there was something wrong with her. And the psychologist left the room turns the music on and she got up and danced. And he said to the parents, there's nothing wrong with her. She's a dancer. And I think the next book I want to explore is also the idea of the artist as well, because the artist is most likely a person that hasn't connected with the mainstream that has found mainstream education, really difficult to engage them in certain ways. And so a whether it's unconventional people who are drawn to art, or whether we stay on conventional because we're able to express ourselves in a way that you can't do if you're a real estate agent. I'm interested to explore that further because I don't think that's a coincidence that that add us neurodivergent people, people who have strong feelings, you know, may struggle with their mental health. There's a lot of overlap with all of that there but unfortunately, schools are set up For one kind of learner, yeah. And that has to change. Oh, yeah. But this is a conversation, I could have 100 times over. It's just the frustration that you get, like just the simple thing. Like last night, my son, my little boy who's seven, he was looking through last year's school magazine. And he noticed some of the kids that were on a special page, and they were the ones that had won the academic awards for their year level. And he asked me what it meant, and I knew where it was going. And I said, these are the children that were judged in a certain way to be clever. And he said, Does that mean I'm not smart? And I knew where it was going. I could read it like a book. And I said, No, I said, it means that for the certain tests that they did, to work out who was clever in this certain way, these kids were the best at that. And I said, and there's other tests in the world. And it wasn't like a test it was more are other ways in the world, that you are determined to be, you know, clever in other ways. And he but he kept on with it. He said, Does that mean I won't win an award and I said, darling, you're reminding these already won some awards for being kind and you know, for, for perseverance and that kind of thing. And it just straightaway, just flashed in my head, like, this moment, I remember in kindergarten, when my my eldest son, who's, you know, Alex, who's got the issues, went to kindergarten for the first time. And this was before I was working in the Childcare and Education area. And I took him to kindy. And they all had to sit down. And they all had to sit with their legs exactly the same crossed in the front. And they all had to sit up and look at the front. And I just thought, it's like, I don't know what the rule is, I could, like I could see the light go out in him, if, you know, he couldn't even sit the way he wanted to, he couldn't express his himself in the way he wanted to just by being present. And I just, I walked away from them with tears in my eyes, because I thought you just squashing these little people right from the beginning. And now when I'm, like I'm working to kindy now, and there's some children that, you know, you can tell that they're feeling unsettled for the way they're being told to sit or whatever, and I'll, I'll bring him over. And I'll say, Just stretch your legs out a bit, you know, give them a bit of a shake, you know, and, you know, hiding sort of way, I hope none of my kindy cohorts are listening to this, you know, you should be able to sit however you want to see. So, you know, just breaks my heart. And that's the start of it, the very start of the conformity is expected for the next, you know, 1314 years of their lives. Yeah, just breaks my heart. And it's crashing, you know, your story breaks my heart too, because, you know, that's all of these brilliant minds, that are just kind of being pushed through this one system that was created 100 years ago to make factory workers, docile, factory factory workers. And so, you know, what I was stressed again, is there are extraordinary teachers working within the six, this repressive system. And if you're lucky enough, your kid will find a teacher that can just see something in you, you know, keep your self esteem intact. But you know, like, asking my book is this really the best we can do for our kids, you know, to spend 12, or 13 years of your most formative years of your life, in a system that makes you feel broken or wrong or a failure, you know, some kids will thrive, some kids will come through and feel great about themselves. But others will, you know, just be left completely broken. And so many adults, I interviewed about the book, there's a young, a beautiful man who I call Tony in the book that told me about his school experience. And it's so common, you know, just to feel completely, and some people never recover from that, just to feel completely crushed by that. So that's also where I feel like when we start to understand what my friend Eliza hull has taught me about the social model of disability, when we start to understand that it is actually a person's right, to be able to express themselves authentically, and to be able to set up their environments and they can thrive, then schools will be more accommodating towards kids that can't sit with their legs crossed, you know, and there are a lot of autistic activists, self advocating activists that are now really loudly and proudly saying, Do not shut us down, you know, we need to move we need to stim. This is how we emotionally regulate it, stop trying to make us not like us, we want to live full, authentic lives. And this is what we need to do all the kids coming through schools. And look, it's I don't know what that will look like. Because, of course, it's great to bombard ideas into the, you know, into the ether and not know how to put that into practice. Because, you know, like we were saying before, as a teacher working one teacher with 25 kids, each of them have their own specific needs. But a lot of the feedback teachers gave me is that even just lowering the student teacher ratio, just aides in the classroom, your more external things to be able to self regulate. So one credible school that I talked to has a massive what they call the shed. And it's a big workshop space and kids with difficulty in staying within the classroom neurodivergent kids or kids with learning difficulties have factored in spaces during the week where they can go and do stuff in the shed where volunteers come in, they did some cooking would work in a basket weaving whatever. And there's no stigma attached to spending time in the shed, because it's a cool place to be, you can go to the shed as well. So it's so tricky, because yes, sometimes it does require taking these kids out of the classroom and finding something they're good at. And all I remember myself, the kids that got taken out of the class, you know that there's something different about them. And there's stigma attached to that my son hated that, if that meant that he was stupid. So there's, there's got to be more creative ways of doing it. So that we can offer different ways of making our kids feel good about themselves. And that's where parents are really important to, to just to see like you're doing to see that it's a big picture. And all the successful adults I interviewed who neurodivergent said the one thing that got them through was finding something they were good at. And maybe that's art, maybe that sport for one guy was sailing, you know, Torian champion sailing, yeah, doesn't matter what it is, you've got to you got to have something that's yours that you didn't want. Alex is playing the bagpipes. He's like, Oh, my God, like the kid that like both my husband and I are musical and, you know, always had music in the house and sang and played. And for years, I'd be like, taught me to teach you this. Do you want me to teach that night night and I was I think it was, you know, out of, you know, rebellion against Moto and mom to teach me something, you know. And then all of a sudden, remember the that squid game that TV show that was big about a 12 months ago, the same song of that like the do do this kind of little tune on a recorder. So all of a sudden Alex decides he wants to play the recorder. And I'm like, Okay, that's great. So I didn't really take him seriously. So I ended up buying him recorder because the kids had a recorder when they were little. And I pulled it to pieces and hid the pieces around the house because I hate it. It's like there's a there's a keyboard here. There's a guitar there. Could you play something else anyway, so he loved it learnt heaps of songs on it. And I thought, I can't have this sound. It's issues with particular sounds, it really triggers me. So I bought him a tin whistle and Irish tin whistle so a nicer sound. It was in a different, like different key. So it challenged him but he loved it learn all these songs. And then one day he just says, I just want to play the bagpipes. And I've just gone up Jesus. Could you not pick something a bit louder? Like, anyway, so in 12 months this kid is, is he's joined the local band. They've been on blowies boat horn, but I will he's, he's they say he's got the most potential of any kid they've seen, you know, in a long time. He's picked it up so quick. And I'm like, I'm just so damn proud of him because he loves it. You know, he's always been a bit left of centre he like always like listening to Scottish music or something a bit different. And I've always embraced it. Because I'm a bit like that as well. So you know, and I just think good for you mate. Like he's found the thing he loves and he's the sort of kid that won't necessarily try hard unless he really likes something. So yeah, we live in the dream now. Because I see DC they have a bag. Yeah, the other day we're watching the I feel GranFondo and they had you know the the bagpipers coming out for your voice and it's like they go mate. And I've always I've also had someone online because we share a little video on on our Facebook, say, Oh, I'm getting married soon, I'm gonna need someone to play the bagpipes. Like, they go mate, you know, and people love it. Like, it's a sort of, if you hear it sort of off in the distance of bagpipe. It's, you know, you get the hair sort of, you know, you get it get goosebumps, whatever. It's amazing instrument. It's just not so amazing when it's literally just out the door. Well, I'm trying to do things in here. But anyway, long story short, He's found his thing and he's, he's thriving and good on you for being open to that as well. Because I think, you know, that that is really important thing that I think parents need to understand is it may not be the thing that you thought it would be, it might be something completely different. But yeah, if you can give them the space and the support to find that thing. And, you know, also be part of it. You know, I do that as well. I say this thing like oh, you know, I don't want to blow my own horn or, you know, I don't want to show off or anything but the kids that have had no successes, and then to be extraordinary at something it's of course we should celebrate that You know, so you know, I think good on it and yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. We spoke earlier about how people connect with you people you've never met, you get the feedback that others are going through it. In your book, you mentioned about an experience where you were booked to speak in front of a whole lot of was it buyers? Buyers? book sellers, new sellers. Yeah. And you had, you know, your, your script, I guess that what you were going to say? And then you started to get these little nudges in your mind that you really wanted to share your son's story. And you did, and it went amazing. And, you know, the feedback you got from people afterwards talking to you for you know, so many hours. Like, it's, it's incredibly wonderful that there are people like you that can share, because I know there's a lot of people that can't but I just want to say how awesome it is that you are doing this, like it's it's just really great. Thank you. And look, I think I, I you know, you and I, we do have a platform. And as scary as it is to be vulnerable. I think that's also such a gift. Every time I've heard someone who has a platform, for whatever reason when they speak openly about something vulnerable. So you know, when I was a teenager, I might have been someone I'm famous coming out, or more recently, it's mental health, or even more recently now with somebody like em Oceana, spotlighting on ADHD, how powerful that is, and how connecting, and then how it does make people feel like that, that they can, you know, look at that person up there that looks like they've got it together so successful. They also have all this stuff going on, too. So I my case. You know, occasionally people say to be about my book horror, it's very vulnerable. For a lot of yourself out there and a panic, a lie awake at night going over bits. And I think, what are people gonna think of that fit? But I think what's the point of creating art, if you don't make something that matters, you know, there's so much froth out there anyway. You know, this is something that I hope would speak to you as a practicing artist and about your podcast being about practicing art, particularly as a parent, you have so little time to waste. Why why do frost why not do something real? vulnerable? Deep, authentic connecting, that's what art can do. Yeah, that's awesome. That is such a great way of looking at it. And I certainly feel that way. It's like, if you're going to do it go big. Before you get into clubs, I've had no pushback. That's the amazing thing. I thought that by now. I mean, it's only been a few weeks, but I thought there would be someone that would take me to task. But all I've got is people thanking me. And so I think it was worth it. It was worth doing that very thing. Because it was see that you're you're trying your best even if I don't get everything right. I'm just I'm trying my best. Right now in my stage of life. Yeah, absolutely. Now that's awesome. It's really interesting, your book. Now you've named it wild things as a reference to that amazing children's book where the wild things are. And throughout your book, you've sort of waved in these characters from other books, and then analyze them for one of a better word, brought them into the 21st century and saying, How would these children be the word diagnosed dying, that's a good way to be perceived in if they were here. Now. What would we say they had a better website. That's really interesting. What How did you come up with that idea? Because it's fascinating. And it's, it's really, it's really interesting, actually. I'm glad you say that. I think it's partly because partly it came from my own anxieties when I first started out writing the book that people would see my name on the book as a children's author and think why is she writing a book for grownups? So I thought, how can I connect what I do and have done for 25 years, this world, I'm passionate about children's literature with what I want to bring to an adult audience. And I taught writing for children for a long time at RMIT in Melbourne. And I always ask my grown up students to bring in a book from their childhood, every time someone holds up a book that meant something to them as a child, the reaction that they have to that, or the memories that are locked into that book, and visceral, you know, we have such a deep connection to our childhoods. We forget that sometimes. And sometimes just bringing an object or a book, or something from your childhood can trigger all these incredible feelings and memories. So I thought, all these books that we grew up reading, you know, we celebrate these characters, and we love them, they become part of our lives, they become part of our culture. So many of them are Naughty. Naughty, because one of the keys to writing good literature is you need conflict. You know, a story doesn't, you know, there's no such thing as a story where just everything happened, nothing happens. You know, the story is created by conflict. It's created by adversity, it's created by all these things, and your main character, you've got to give them some agency. And usually that happens by bucking the system, challenging authority, making changes. And that can usually only happen if you're a little bit of a rebel. So most of our most beloved characters are pretty rebellious. So we celebrate these characters in books. But when our children show the same traits, we really struggle with that like, oh, Ron, you're supposed to sit down and do what you're told, don't stand up and say, the books we're giving them are all about people challenging authority. And so I just wanted adults to, to want to think about that, to think about what it is that we expect from our children that's maybe unnatural, or maybe not even particularly healthy, but also to tap into our own childhood selves, because everything we experienced as a child work we're experiencing for the first time. So we see the world with eyes open and full of awe. And that's what you have to do as a daily practice. As an artist, you have to see the world as it for the first time every day. And that's why people when they travel, they often become creative, because they want to take photographs or write blog posts or lead us home. Because everything is new and exciting. That's what childhood is like. So we can tap back into that childhood aspect of ourselves. It's not infantilizing, it's actually portal into this extraordinary wealth of creativity, and hopefully, connection and compassion for our own children. Like we're looking at what they're doing. And I'm thinking, actually, you know what, I remember doing that myself as a kid, maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. Like that was a massive tantrum I had as a kid, bend me into the Catholic to get me in. And yet, you know, when my child has a tantrum, you know, that's, that's intense, that's full on. And I had to try to remember how I felt to be able to have compassion for him and kids. To do that with me, it's a good reminder, isn't it? Because sometimes I think we expect so much of our little people, like we just think because I'm an adult, I expect my child to be in this world and engage in the same level. And we forget, you know, their brains are literally wired different to ours, you know, the, the certain parts of their brains haven't, you know, finished developing to, I don't know, till you're 21 or something, you know, like, it's massive. But yet, we just expect, like, perfect reminder for me, is like, I want my children to sit at the table and make their tea for do you think they will? Well, no one ever while the other one's not too bad. But it's like fiddle with every single thing that's on the table, try and hop off the chair 20 times. And so in the end, I just gave up but it's like, I don't, I don't want to experience this. This aggravation or this conflict at tea time. So now, the two of us sit together and have our tea watching the telly usually, and the other to sit up there and have a chat. And it's like, it works for us. And I hear these people say, Oh, we always sit around the table and have dinner together. I'm thinking, geez, you mustn't glue your children to the chair, or your children are not like my children, you know, and just except that, because when I was a kid, jeez, if we didn't sit at the table, you know, you know, we sat at that table, then I just accept, like, like he said, before any point, just acceptance, you know, and things don't always have to be perfect. And the way that, you know, we think they have to be. Yeah. And I think also it's a really good point is that sometimes we just have to recognize how much is unacceptable and how much have we just conditioned to think is unacceptable. And so the fact that you've gone with your gut instinct, and chewed into your child rather than thinking, Oh, this is how I should do it, because I got caught up in a lot of shirts because I had lots of friends with what seemed like perfect kids and doing everything in a different way. So I had to stop thinking that maybe there was something wrong with my kiddos just see these different and stop comparing myself to other parents or comparing to how I was, or even just the social conditioning rehab on what how kids should be. Yeah, that's a big one. That's something I've had to work hard on, I think. And also social media hasn't really helped that because you get to see, well, it's not really people's lives, it's the idea of the part of people's lives, they want you to see that, you know, it's like, oh, you should be doing this. And you should be doing that. And as a mother, you know, that's just like a minefield, find amazing people to follow, you just got to find the right people. Like, you've got to follow disability advocates like the two Ps, those two mums that talk about parenting and kids with disabilities for such no gravitas and humor at the same time. And so you just got to find your tribe, comparing yourself to other people that aren't like you. And that was exactly for me, as soon as I tapped into other communities. These are my people this is, yeah, that's really good. Before I move off of wild things in until the other book I want to talk about, I want to try and link this in, in my podcasts, I like to talk to my moms about the concept of mom guilt. And I put that in air quotes, because often I'll get a mom who just tells me, they don't even know what it is. And I had to google it. And I think that's wonderful. You know, like, it's, you know, everyone experiences things different and guilty or not guilty is one of those things. And I noticed in your book a lot, and you did talk before how you can be really hard on yourself. Is has that been a challenge for you? To not hold on to things? And yeah, you know, usually so and look, I think, I think the very first drafts that I wrote on my book, I just used as a blur as a cathartic experience to get out all the angst and all the guilt. And then I tried to pull it back more and more because it can become self indulgent, you know, and I felt like, Okay, now I've got it all out. This feels like my diary here. But now what's useful for other people? Is it still beating myself up? Is it saying what a bad person I am, you know, potentially what we can do for each other as my mother's is let each other off the hook, you know, you know, being open and saying, Yeah, this is where I messed up. You know what, that's just because I'm human. And so I think part of writing this book was also letting myself off the hook coming through that guilt. That I think so many mothers hold, potentially father's too, I haven't spoken to them to the same extent about that. But I, but I think we need to do ourselves a favor and just let each other off the hook and stop showing each other up and, you know, openly laughing about the things we get wrong and supporting each other when it's hard. I think that's building the tribe and the community and recognizing that, you know, we're really just doing the best we can. Yeah, absolutely. Because I actually think that women and mothers are really bad at doing that to each other, like we do it to each other a lot. And then we don't want it done to us. So I think if we could just stop doing it, it would be wonderful. But you can do that even in a conversation. Like I remember, in conversations I because I feel like I'm trying to be aware, I think self awareness is the biggest step. And you know, I would find myself in a group of other mothers maybe criticizing somebody or something. But we can be the person that just says, You know what, I do that too, or actually, you know, maybe she's having a bad day or whatever. And, you know, we can arrest that even if it does feel like a bonding thing at the time. It's not a really healthy thing to bond over. We can find other things to bond over. Yes, that's true. That's well said yes. The other book that you've recently released is with Eliza Holt, and you've mentioned Eliza and I'm having the lion's share on the podcast in a few weeks too, so I'm really excited about that. It's called come over to my house and can you share with us rather than me tell people you share again, in your own words, what was behind this book and how you came to be involved in the book as well? So I met Eliza through another one of your interviewees, Rachel power, who was A wonderful friend. And she interviewed me for the first edition of her book. The I think I don't know what the most recent one is. But it used to be called the divided heart. I think it's now the art of motherhood or something like that. Anyway, exactly what you're doing just finding other artists, mothers, how are you possibly doing this thing and actually having an artistic practice at the same time? Incredible book, and I give it to everybody who's a practicing artist, mother. It's a brilliant book. It is. It's a wonderful book, if you haven't read it, read it. In fact, to be shouted at it every episode because she's queen. And so she and I were on a panel with another couple of artist mothers. and Eliza Hall was in the audience. So it was years and years ago, before she even became a mother, I think she was thinking of becoming a mother. And she contacted me out of the blue, and we just started corresponding. And we became friends. She's an extraordinary musician, I downloaded one of her albums, and I had it on rotation in my car all day, every day for years, I think. And so, by absolute coincidence, after a few years, we both ended up in this mate, same small country town. So I was still living in Melbourne, but I had a bush block, just outside of Castlemaine in central Victoria. And she had not long ago moved to Castlemaine herself. So we just kept reconnecting because I really liked her she really liked me. And she had brought actually contributed a piece for the book, edited by Calif in late growing up disabled in Australia. And she also edited a book on parenting parents with disabilities and the challenges and the triumphs that many of these parents are happy to share. And she said that she had been thinking about writing a book for children, but it's wasn't an area that she was very familiar with, when I come on board with her. And being such a big fan of hers, I said, Yeah, of course, you know, I'd love to. And she is the person I credit to helping me understand how disability doesn't have to be a dirty word. So disability, if somebody owns that word with pride, just like indigenous and African American people are earning the word black with pride, or potentially pride with pride, with pride, then then, it becomes something that takes away the stigma around that word. So a lot of active self advocating people within the disability community will use that word, as a way of saying, there's nothing wrong with me, this is who I am, this is my community. But unless you create an accessible world, I'm not going to be able to be my reach my full potential. And she proposed that potentially, my son was also disabled by his environment, because if he was able to learn in a particular way, but the school wasn't able to support the way that he learned that he was also disabled. So that just blew my mind. He claimed that social disability. So we workshop, the idea of doing a picture book together, we're what the aim of it is to normalize disability, we just happened to be invited into I think, I can't remember now seven children's homes, the child might have a disability or the parent might have a disability, some things are done a little bit differently. Some things we do the same. But really, it's about just taking away the stigma around that word, opening us up into the world of these extraordinarily creative people who live with disability, and inviting into their homes. So there was a book I grew up reading in the 70s, by Dr. Seuss, called come over to my house. And it was, I remember, I loved it as a child, I read it again and again. And we were invited into all these homes of people who lived in different countries around the world than, you know, Japan, or India or whatever. Everybody had a slightly different house ate slightly different food, but they all like to play the same kind of games. So we've aimed to do the same thing with this book, we're inviting into these times. There'll be some similarities, some differences. But you know, there's nothing scary about it. Talk about talk about the similarities and the differences and normalize and D stigmatize those words, that fear is the thing I think it's people don't know what to say they don't know. I think what you've written in the beginning of your book about how people with disabilities like to be referred to whether I've got a disability, I'm a person with a disability. Now, I think we're scared of offending people or saying the wrong thing. And it's like, if we talk to people, if we talk to each other, and we say, How do you like to be referred to you? What would you like me to call you and lots and lots of listening? And that's where we do have access to extraordinary stories and people via social media, people who weren't able to access platforms to be heard before. And so you can politely ask if you can follow an activist on social media you know, Callie villa is a very outspoken activist that speaks very, very confidently in the area of disability and so there's lots to Learn from the stuff. That's just undoing all the conditioning that we've had growing up and understanding how, you know what, what the world is like for people that don't live with the same kind of privilege we do. And the best way we can understand that is just lots lots of listening. And there's a lot of amazing people to follow online that you can learn heaps from. We can all educate ourselves, it's you know, and, you know, that's where there is a delicate balance. Because, you know, there will be people that will say, well, it's not for us to carry the weight of having to educate everybody, you know, we don't want every single person coming up to us and asking, you know, how to lose your leg or whatever. So we're hoping this picture book for children is that it starts communication starts conversation, sorry, around different forms of disabilities. And also, the kinds of questions we can ask because children are genuinely interested, curious and naive. And so we can have these conversations and we can say our Do you know, do you think that men will feel comfortable with you just staring at him all the time? You know, how would you feel if you were invited to a party and you couldn't get in because your wheelchair couldn't get over the step in the playground or, you know, actually creating empathy, compassion, and the more we can hear the stories from people themselves, rather than people like me talking on their behalf. More important that is, and that's why of course, it's fantastic. You've got Eliza on your program, because I'm looking forward to that God. And she's a wonderful person. Yeah. And I Yeah, music like, I don't know how I didn't know. She also was a singer and a songwriter. And like, wow, she's amazing. Yeah. So if you're listening alive, so looking forward to chatting with you? So I want to go back to you, as a mum, do you feel like you want your children to see you, as Sally that does all these things, and you're not just their mom, and I'm putting that in air quotes, because you're never just a mom. But you know that your children see that you've got all these other elements to then the caring role, the mothering role? Yeah, I think that's really important. And in the years where I did carry a lot more guilt than I allow myself to now, I used to worry a lot about working a lot, because I worked really, really, really hard. And so often I might be away on tour, or I might have to, after dinner, go back into the studio to work or, and would sometimes mean that I'd missed some school things or, you know, and then I would feel bad about that. But I think all my working mothers can relate to that. But I guess what I hoped is that what I'm role modeling is that if they have a female partner in the future, there won't be an assumption that it just falls on one person to do the domestic labor or the childcare, that I can model what it's like to be an independent person in the world. I've always been financially independent, I've always, you know, worked really hard to forge a career for myself. And so even though I have sons, not daughters, I think it's as important to role model that for them, as it would be if I had daughters, and they're really proud of me now, you know, my oldest son's 29 Oh, my, oh, actually, not all my sons, my two oldest sons. In the creative arts, so the oldest one is interested in writing and filmmaking. The middle one is a visual artist, along with a million other things. My youngest son's into math, so I'm not quite sure how to connect. i That's pretty creative, too. But, you know, what they've seen is that you can be loving, you can be nurturing, you can be dedicated to your children, and you can also have space for yourself. And that's actually what it is to be a whole healthy human in the world. You know, nobody should have to completely sacrifice themselves for anybody else. That's not healthy. You know, we can be full people in the world and also be amazing parents as well. And so I just feel like I had to role model that to my kids, and get over that angst that I would carry about not being there at every assembly. Being really terrible at baking cakes. I'm just and that's okay. Yeah, exactly. And I was always good on You mentioned briefly earlier how that your son Sam inspired you to write a couple of the series is that your that you've written? Can you tell us a little bit more about that. So before Sam, it became clear that Sam was struggling to read, I wrote the kind of books I like to read as a child, so sophisticated, you know, plots, dense texts, you know, elaborate vocabulary, all of those things, because I was a very good reader. And I found reading easy and accessible. So they're the kind of books I set out to write, partly from my own ego as well, because I wanted to show off what a good rider so those weren't ever going to be books that Sam was going to be able to access. So and I call him Sam, he's not really called Sam. But for the purposes of the book and all the publicity, he said, yep. And to give him some privacy. And so the only books that he was able to read, we're the school readers, and they serve a very important purpose. They are there to teach kids to read, but they often don't have storylines or character development. And they're often a bit boring. I thought, the challenge for me would be to create books that would use that kind of language and vocabulary and sentence structure, but actually have proper character development and plots and so forth. And I tested them all out on them. So I would watch him. And if I lost his attention, I would short nerd or I would speed up the story or whatever. So they're all road tested with past him. And then because those books reach so many kids, what that message very strongly sent to me was, there are a lot of kids out there, like Sam, who may not be dyslexic, but just may find reading really hard. So everything I've written from then on has been for those kinds of kids, because not many other people are doing, I think there's a lot of humor around for kids. There's a lot of kind of cartoon comic books for kids, and they are really, really important too. But to explore something that goes into an emotional terrain, or perhaps, perhaps stories of friendships, it's hard to find those in a lot of the really, really fast paced accessible books for kids. So I try to do that and everything I write, to make sure that it works on lots of levels. So the poly investor series, for example, can be read on the surface as a story about rich and the monster playground story. But the further you go into it, and the more you want to explore it with a child, the more you can see that it's actually a story about apartheid. You know, it's potentially a story about the Trump era story about racism, you know, depending on how deep you want to go with your child. But I trust that children want complex stories, they may not be able to access them with their reading skills, but they have extraordinary minds. I mean, I remember, the Think of that I was as a child, that's the one skill that I've been able to hone throughout writing for children is that I can transport myself back to a six year old really easily. And I remember how I thought how I felt. And it's not less than we do now. It's not as sophisticated. But if anything, I think I felt things even more keenly as a child than I do now. And so I don't want to write down to them, but I do want them to have something they can access for themselves. Hmm, yeah, that's really thoughtful. That's really cool. That's very clever to to be able to write like that. And also, because your first will not actually your first book, but the book when about being China, about that was written for like, you know, the young adults, and then you can write for little people, two sets, and you've written for adults as well, like, that's very versatile. It's, well, you can play instruments, and I can't do that. Oh, I tell you what, I hold musicians as the top talent, as far as I'm concerned, as far as out of scope, because it's like musicians can hold a world in their heads. It's not just words, but it's all these different sounds that come together to create one sound. And for me, that is just like the epitome of creativity. It's I'd never thought of it that way. It's probably what I get so distracted. Oh, that's funny. I've always found this fascinating. And I have had many conversations with teachers over the years about how, how do we actually learn to read write. And I didn't actually really know there were these two clear different sort of forces of opinion working against each other. About, I always wondered whether you actually, like, picked up each letter and sanded down each letter. And that was how you got it, or whether you just recognize almost like, Hey, you recognize logos or symbols that you just remembered. That's how that word looks. And it was fascinating. When you write in the book that even now when we read, as adults, like fluent readers, we're still doing that, almost like the phonics way. In a while we're reading and I thought, gee, that's interesting. So rather than again, maybe try and explain, could you share some intelligent thoughts. So, so one of the amazing things that came up in some of my early research, and this sounds like such a simple thing, but it is actually mind blowing, is that while we are our brains, while we are born with brains that have the capacity for oral language, that is, while we're inside the womb, we are actually learning the tone. And we're learning we're developing the skills to be able to speak just from listening to our mother's mother speaking. So we have a French speaking mother will be attuned to Frenchmen were born, bilingual parents, children, attune to two languages, and so on. So we were born with the brains that have the capacity to be able to use our language, because our language is 100,000 years old. Written language, however, is only five and a half 1000 years old. So we actually don't have a space in our brain when we're born, that is set up for reading. So we have to actually rewire a part of our brain to be able to be a skilled to read and fluent reader. So the way that this is done is that part of the brain that is used for visual processing combines with another part that's used with oral and this is a very, very simple way of just describing very dense neuroscience. But essentially, it's recycled. So that we create what this very famous French professor has called the letterbox His name is Stanislas de Haan, you can find his talks online, He's extraordinary. We can now look inside brains because of neuroscience and see what's happening as we acquire reading skills. And so that's how they've been able to actually scientifically prove what happens in the brain when we learn to read. So before we were able to do that, like you say, there was a couple of schools of thought about how it might be that we acquire reading and one of them was the whole word approach that we do. We see a word like an image and we store it, and that then is retained and retrieved when we need that word. But we now know that in fact, what we're doing painstakingly as a child, is breaking words down into a code sounding out all the little pieces of the word. So pH sounds like, you know that oh can sound a few different ways. And so we do that painstakingly as a child, but the more we practice that the more that wiring happens in our brain, so it becomes automatic. But if we're not taught those skills, which the broad umbrella comes under the umbrella of phonics, but it's also thought of as decoding where we actually break the word down together to create meaning, then we can potentially get by for a while, because for a while, there will be certain words that we can recognize up to a certain extent, or we can guess by using the cues in the book by looking at the pictures. But once we get to that grade three, that's when we when you actually see that kids who haven't acquired those reading skills, really plateau and flounder, and that's what happened with my son. So some kids will seem to pick it up naturally or by osmosis by not being taught to decode, but some kids won't. So the the people who argue for teaching phonics from early on, the argument is that while some kids will manage to learn to read, just by doing some guessing and managing to create some kind of reading skills on their own without being specifically taught, there'll be many that aren't. So this is a way that guarantees that all kids will be taught to read. Now if you're dyslexic, you may need extra support and extra practice outside of the classroom, same skills, but you can you may need up to four times the amount of practice than a non dyslexic, but even Dyslexics can be taught to read if they're taught with this very systematic phonics instruction. So somehow it's you know, I didn't have a stake on either side and you know, Think about it or read the brain science. And it really just comes out time and time again, for people who know this stuff. I'm just sharing what I've learned that that is the way that we can guarantee that kids won't fall through the cracks. And somehow there are still arguments about it. But for me, you know, this might be controversial. It feels like listening to flat Earth as argue now, yes, there was a time, we couldn't know if the earth was round. But now we know what happens in the brain as we learn to read. And the best practice of teaching it, we just don't need to get on board. That's it will go through school like my Sam did without learning how to read and everything will fall apart there. So we're in a transition phase, there's a lot of extraordinary mothers that are lobbying to have screening done really early on to be able to pick out kids that are struggling to read, they're out, unfortunately, becomes political. But there are, you know, there are lots of people now who are advocating to have one form of teaching Trump taught across the board to ensure that all kids are taught to read, having said that, the argument against phonics is that people will say, Oh, it's boring, it's dull. It's like what was done in the 1950s. And it'll turn kids off reading. Yeah, it can seem a little bit boring and dull, like learning, you know, the notes for piano, for example, in the very early days, that can seem pretty boring. But meanwhile, you're playing music to them. So they're thinking, oh, one day, I'll be able to do that. So of course, while kids are learning to decode by using this explicit systematic phonics instruction, you read them beautiful literature, so they know what they're going to be able to access once they develop those skills for themselves. And that's what parents can do at home. So the worst thing that any parent can be told now, I realize is that if you read your to your child enough, they will just pick up reading, because that is awful for a parent that's done everything right to here, and their child still doesn't read. So they need to be taught. And you can support that at home by reading to them from birth, but it's not your responsibility to teach them. Yeah, that's it. And then it takes out that that horrible sort of the guilt ridden pneus that a lot of us moms feel when it's like, what did we do wrong? I thought we did what everyone said to do, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah. And it was interesting in the book to those example, those couple of examples around that phonics was a I can't think of the exact time period. But in America, at one point, they completely changed how they were teaching it my saying this right, and then all of a sudden, the decline, like was measurable of because they changed how they were teaching. Sorry, can you make sense of that? Yeah, lots of those texts coming out. Lots of those stats are coming out now about, you know, people are looking for all different reasons as to why we have a society that reads less of that kids are getting to the end of primary school and not being able to have basic literacy skills. There are lots of speculation around that. But all the research is showing that a lot of it is just because they haven't been explicitly taught. So I do give examples in the book of some schools that have changed the whole teaching program around and gone from the lowest rung of the NAPLAN results in reading to the top rep. And these are in disadvantaged areas and not ones that are getting tutoring outside school. So it's also a way that we can ensure that it's not just the kids that grow up in educated, privileged, financially secure households, like my son get the support they need. But all kids even in non English speaking background, in apartments, where maybe they're sharing one computer amongst, you know, five kids, or, you know, every child needs to be able to given the same stat in life. That's what our public education system is about. And so the only way to ensure that all kids can access literacy skills that they're going to need is by teaching them in this specific way. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good job. And I'm doing it on behalf of other people, because obviously, I can't know if Sam would have been a fluent reader had he been taught differently. You know, it's not a sliding door situation. I can't go back and do it all again. But from every single expert I've spoken to and all the research has come out and all the books I've read. It points to that. Yep. There's a quote in there by Astrid Lindgren, who's an extraordinary Swedish writer, she was extraordinarily successful in her time. And she just has this beautiful quote that I put in the back of the book that give your children love, more love, and more love, and the rest will come. And I think, you know, it can be easy to project, our idea of success on our kids or who we think our kids should be. But I think in the end, if they can go through life, knowing that someone just loves them completely for who they are, that's about the best thing you can do for them. And I think that's the most important thing I tried to instill in my son is if he's a good and worthy person, no matter what he chooses to do with his life. Yeah, that's lovely. That's beautiful. And I'm going to add a quote to that. I can't remember who said it in the book, but it said, trust your kids, they will show themselves to you and be ready to love who you say. I thought that was a really good one. That was you that said, bravo to you. Well done. Well, thank you so much, Sally. It's been such a joy chatting to you. And thank you for sharing your story and your son's story. And yeah, being a part of of the chat today. It's been lovely. It's been really nice chatting with you. I feel like we could probably go on for hours. We probably have to break out the wine soon. All right, cyanide. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love for you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with a Nazi stick mum

Dr Sophie Brock Motherhood studies sociologist S2 Ep59 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Dr Sophie Brock, a Motherhood Studies Sociologist (a Social Scientist) and Mother of 1 living in Sydney, Australia. She provides analysis of Motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences of Mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. I first found out about Sophie's amazing work while recording a podcast with Louise Agnew in S2Ep41 and I am so glad I did, what she is doing really resonates with me and it is so valuable. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what Motherhood means in our society, and how individual Mothers are supported and understood. This has been her of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in Sociology from The University of Sydney, her own experiences as a Mother, and her own ongoing learning from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for a Motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where Mothers have agency, support, and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of Motherhood, including ‘the perfect mother myth’, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom-motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, (re)claim, explore, and connect to a version of Motherhood that sees women who mother as valued, powerful and whole. Sophie’s offerings include self-study courses for Mothers and practitioners, her podcast The Good Enough Mother , and her Motherhood Studies Practitioner Certification program. In todays chat with Sophie we discuss the movie The Lost Daughter , which may be triggering. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Connect with Sophie website / facebook / instagram email - info@drsophiebrock.com Podcast - instagram / website Maternal Scholars Australia Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Sophie Brock to the podcast this week. Sophie is a motherhood studies sociologist, also known as a social scientist, and a mother herself living in Sydney Australia. Sophie provides analysis of motherhood in our culture, exploring the ways individual experiences and mothers are shaped by broader social constructs. Sophie supports professionals, business owners and creatives in revolutionising what motherhood means in our society, and how individual mothers are supported and understood. I first found out about Sophie and her incredible work through a previous guest of this podcast. Louise Agnew, a photographer from Matt Gambia, South Australia, and I'm so glad I did. Motherhood studies has been Sophie's field of research and passion for over a decade now. Her work is grounded in her PhD in sociology from the University of Sydney, her own experiences as a mother and her own ongoing learnings from her clients and community. Sophie's vision is for motherhood liberated from patriarchal structural constraints, where mothers have agency support and possibilities open to them. Creating this world requires the deconstruction of dominant models of motherhood, including the perfect mother myth, intensive mothering ideology, and martyrdom motherhood. She believes that through this work, we can create space to imagine, claim or reclaim, explore and connect to a version of motherhood that sees women who mother as valued powerful and how, and personally I could not agree more. Sophie's offerings include self study courses for mothers and practitioners, her podcast, the good enough mother, and her motherhood studies practitioner certification program. In today's chat with Sophie, we discussed the movie The lost daughter, which may be triggering to some. If so, I encourage you to seek help from those around you or from resources online. I have compiled a list of international resources on my website landing page. That is Alison newman.net/podcast. The music you'll hear in today's episode is used with permission and it's from my new age at ambient music trio called LM Joe. It's made up of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I'm so delighted to have Sophia on an episode of my podcast. It really is an honor. And I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I enjoyed chatting with Sophie. Thanks so much for coming on today. Sophie, it's a real pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me, Alison. I'm looking forward to our conversation today. Yeah, so I've been following you on Instagram for a little while I came across you. I can't remember how but I'm really glad I did. Because what you're doing is really of interest to me, and I think will be of interest to a lot of people that listen to the podcast as well. Can you explain to us what you do? And the sort of thing that you're really interested in with your area of work? Yeah, sure. So I have a pretty unusual job title, which is a motherhood studies sociologist. And what that actually means is I'm a social scientist, and I focus on the experiences of mothers and motherhood in our society and culture and how that shaped and what that means. And so sometimes I describe it, if you imagine, like a scientist with their white lab coat walking into a lab and looking at a specimen under their microscope to examine and ask questions and post hypotheses and think about well, what can I learn and what can I find out from studying and observing this phenomenon? I do the same thing but in our social world. So we step out and we look at how mothers experience their daily lives and what the cultural messages are around what it means to be a mother in Our society and culture. And so that's what I'm really interested in. How did you get into this area? What was sort of the trigger that that drew you into it? Yeah, I did my Bachelor of Arts degree and I majored in sociology. And through the course of one of my essay topics, I stumbled across motherhood studies as a term. And I was really surprised that we hadn't learned about motherhood studies formally in the course of my degree. And so I kind of went down the rabbit hole of lots of reading. And I discovered a whole network of incredible maternal scholars at the time, mostly based in North America. But there was an organization here in Australia, two that was focused on maternal researchers scholarship, and that led me down the path of them pursuing a PhD focused on that area of study. And it's kind of just sort of blossomed since then I've just been really passionate about the topic. And this was long before I became a mum myself. So yeah, it's been an interest for mine ever since. Yeah, it's interesting you say about not many people, I guess, in Australia, I don't know about now. But I've noticed that there it is a really strong sort of topic in North America. And there's people in England doing the same sort of thing. But I haven't come across many other people sort of diving in, in Australia. So it's a nice to have that perspective over here. Because I think, you know, culturally, you know, we are so different to other countries, and different sort of setups that our government has, like with health care, and childcare and things like that. So it is a unique sort of, I guess, every country is unique. So yeah, it's nice to have that that perspective. There's actually a fair a fair few people now in Australia, which is wonderful. And there's an organization maternal scholars, Australia, and but the, I suppose the challenges too, it's like, how, where are you placed in order to be able to do this work? And so are you working at a university? Do you have funding, like, all of those sorts of questions come into play with how much focus were sort of able to facilitate on this topic? But yeah, absolutely. There's a really strong pool throughout, throughout, you know, the UK and North America and Australia for this interest. So can you explain to us, and I'll probably stuff this up. So take this way, you need to the sort of the way you describe the difference between motherhood, mothering, like the actual act of mothering within you describe it, like the fishbowl? Can you? Can you talk about that? Explain? Yeah, no, you didn't start that up at all? Naughty that I use. And it's really about making some distinctions in language to make it easier for us to describe accurately what we're experiencing and what we're talking about in motherhood. So there are three distinctions to help us do that. And one is, the word mother can be referring to our individual selves, so the individual mother, or a social role, so the role of the mother, and then there's mothering, which is an act, it's a practice, it's like the doing work of mothering and their caregiving, the actual acting out of what it means to engage in mothering work. And then there's the motherhood. And so the Motherhood is the social and cultural context, that way, the mother's mother with him. So I used the fish tank analogy to describe that to think about around glass bowl, which is like the fish tank, and that represents our society and culture. And this can be applied to lots of different areas, not just motherhood, but we're talking about the hood here. And so that represents all of the stuff that we actually find really hard to see. Because it's easy for someone to point at something and say, Oh, here's a rulebook and look at all of those rules contained within it. That's the law, but the social customs and the social rules and the social norms that we all live within, we know them because we've been socialized into them, but they're invisible. It happens through a process of socialization. So this analogy is really there to help us make a little bit more tangible, what we're kind of talking about here. But we're living within a society and culture that has certain ideas around what it means to be a mother. And that impacts not only how we see ourselves, but that impacts how we carry out our mother in how we actually care for our children. And it also impacts how the world sees us. So that's the kind of analogy that I use to help open up that conversation. Yeah, that's, that's really good. I think that that's a really relatable description, like and I think it's Yeah, because people see things in so many different ways and learning different ways. So, you know, being able to visualize that, you know, vessel that we're within, as this as the social constructs. When I checked Imams on this podcast, a lot of them bring up the topic. Well, I bring up the topic and it's a big one for people about the identity shift that happens when you become a mother. And what actually happens to yourself the sense that you might lose your own identity, you'd become somebody's mum. And you'd lose that. Everything you've ever had, in the eyes of society is diminished, because you you exist to keep this little person alive. That I noticed on your your stories and your your Instagram, that it seems that something that's important that you talk about is maintaining that identity as the person that you are within the role of mothering. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Sure, yeah, identity is such a complex topic, and we all relate to it, probably understandably, so in different ways. So it is a really common theme to come out when we're talking about who we are as mothers, for mothers to say they feel they've lost themselves as mothers or they've lost themselves in motherhood, or that they may have a really strong sense of their self and identity. But to everyone else, now they've shifted and changed. And as you say, you're, you know, you're Jessica's mum, you're you don't have your even your name anymore. And I think that often coincides with a shift in Korea, because so often, there's such a cemented sense of identity with what we do. So what work we carry out, if there are shifts that go on there in terms of shifting the the amount that we are engaged in paid work, or shifting career, that can also really accentuate a sense of loss of self, because we don't have that to identify with as strongly anymore. Although it can also be the other way, for a lot of women who become mothers, as well, some describe, finding themselves in motherhood or, I know focuses around creativity and saying, actually, this experience that I've had, through becoming a mother can also be a portal and a catalyst for incredible self transformation and coming to know myself in a new way. And, and and what I try and talk about is highlighting the nuance and saying, We don't actually have to have a simple story here. And it can be a bit of both. And it'll change according to who you're speaking with. But I suppose what can be helpful for us is making the distinction between who the world sees us as who the world expects us to be, and who it is that we are. And so I find that useful to come back to to say that we're more than our labels, and our roles, and that it's really important for us, as women, as individuals, as mothers to be able to find a sense of grounding and anchoring into who we are, that feels true for us and feels connected for us rather than who were perceived as being by everyone else. Yeah, that's a big one isn't it is this. And I think the social media makes it even more challenging, because there's so many ways you can experience other people's views. Now, it's not like, you could just hear the neighbors saying something or, you know, a friend made a comment. It's like, it's all around us all the time. So it can become really challenging to sort of find yourself amongst everybody else's opinions of who you should be. Is that something that you you sort of noticed as well? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't find yourself when you're swimming through everyone else's opinions of who you should be, um, anything that you try on won't be your own, it'll be someone else's, and social media is makes that particularly challenging, because it's really easy to curate an identity on there. And so talking about topics like this, you know, and we're having this dialogue about identity, and we have the capacity to add in the complexity and the nuance. But that's really hard to do on an Instagram post or in a 32nd Instagram reel. And you know, you have the filters and you have your your light ring, and you set yourself up and you know, you can really portray a certain version of who you are. And that's not to say that that's all constructed and false. And, you know, everyone on there, it's just performing, not at all, I mean, we're all performing to some degree wherever we are, whether it's on social media or not. It's just a shade. It's a shade, and it's a part of who we are. But I think where we can become lost is when, as individuals, we identify with that shade or that version or that facade, and we take that on as meaning. That is everything of who I am. And why that can be risky and challenging for us is that when we anchor him to a version of ourselves that exists outside of us, so when we curate an identity as I'm the mother or whatever, right I'm, I'm the the worried over protective mom. That's just how I'll always be all out, you know, and we really identify with that label. We can get kind of at first we can find meaning from it, but then we can get stuck and trapped within it and it can place these bigger expectations on ourselves and that goes for any identity that we try on. And we need we need some flexibility to to change our minds. And I don't think that were kind of allowed that enough in motherhood were kind of put into these boxes quite early on when we first become mothers and then it can feel really hard to find any movement within there. Hmm. Yeah, it's it's such a big thing is in it. It's like the the way that society wants us to be. Have you noticed throughout your period of time, I didn't ask you how long you've been doing this for But have you noticed shifts generally in the, in the cultural norms of what society is expecting of mothers? Yeah, I have. And I suppose my observations wouldn't be as clear as others who have worked in the field for decades and decades, I've been doing this for about 10 years. But it also impacts your perspective as to whether you're in the cultural soup or not. So whether you are a mother or not. So my perceptions of the cultural construction of motherhood also change according to my experience of motherhood as well. But in a broader sense, in terms of the literature and research around motherhood, there's definitely been a shift more recently in the context of the pandemic, and the kind of off shifts, that has been picked up by by mothers and mothers as another version of frontline workers who are kind of holding down the fort and taking on and engaging in more emotional labor as well as more physical labor in order to care for families and other members of their community. And so absolutely, I think there have been shifts that have been precipitated most strongly through the pandemic. But on top of that, as well, though, there certainly has been an intensification of the expectations on Mother's Day. And I think that's a mix of kind of social media pressures and the online world and a mix of social and cultural factors as well when it comes to even economics and costs of living and different kinds of economic shifts that can happen that then impact how we live our everyday lives. And what that can look like culture to culture as well. Yeah, it makes a difference where we're located and where you're listening to this podcast from will probably change how motherhood looks for you in your society. Yeah, absolutely yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mum was my mum, Alison Newman. Something that really fascinates me is this idea that not only mothers work, the unpaid work that is so essential to make society work. But also the, with the people I chat to that are artists and creators, that the work that we do, maybe we aren't renumerated for in a monetary sense, it makes society has this thing that will our society in us in Australia capitalist Western society that unless you're paid for what you do, there is this diminished worth placed on it? And I can see you nodding, so can you share me share with me your your opinions on that? Yeah, sure. I mean, it's something that I think anybody who is engaged in any form of unpaid labor that they find valuable, meaningful, purposeful, and important, we'll be able to intuitively have a sense of what we're talking about here, right? And you're asked, well, what is it that you do and oh, that or, Oh, you're just a mother? Or oh, that's in some sort of patronizing way? Oh, that's a nice little hobby you have or what are your plans for afterwards? Or what are you how are you going to support your family? Or what contribution Are you making? Like there are veiled ways that we're asked questions that remind us how little value our culture places on what we do? And so I think the first and foremost, for us individually, regardless of whether you're an artist or creator, a mother who is engaged primarily in work, raising her child, rather than paid work outside of the home, is valuing what we do for ourselves. Because even though I would like to say that we need a cultural revolution, so that everyone else sees the value in what we do, so that we can feel better about ourselves, that's probably not going to happen, at least until we individually value what we do so almost forever on this I mean, like, remove the word just from your vocabulary. So when you describe yourself, it's not just anything, it's this is what I do and feeling into the discomfort sometimes that comes with first stating that but knowing truth, every time you do, opens up a pathway for others to be able to do the same. But as you mentioned, we live within a capitalist society where value literally equals dollar. And, and so it can make it really difficult for mothers, when so much of mothering is not only devalued socially, but you're not paid for it. So it's not seen as being economically contributing, although we know that it is, you know, your if you want to look at it, in economic terms, you're raising human capital, you're raising taxpayers. So I mean, you know, we can talk about it from all sorts of different angles. But in order to start to create shifts, I think that we need to start valuing what we do and, and sit with the discomfort that others won't, you know, we can ultimately make them either. So where, yeah, where it's countercultural, some of this of what we're doing in holding on to the meaning of what we do. Finally, I want to talk to you about the movie, the lost daughter, which I absolutely loved. I loved it so much. And I related to it so much. And I don't want that to say I'm bad that I really loved it because it's a heavy, it's a heavy movie with a lot of heavy, heavy topics. And you had a wonderful podcast that you released recently with Julianne, where you talked about in sort of unpacked it. can briefly, can you sort of outline a little bit of that, for people that haven't watched it? This will make no sense whatsoever? So I apologize. But if you have watched it, hopefully this, you'll enjoy this next little bit of the chat. Yeah, yeah. So I had a conversation with Julian bridge lamp from Parenthood in mind about the lost daughter film, it's out on Netflix. And the film is one that explores lots of different aspects of motherhood in a really, as you say, kind of confronting and deep and for some quite dark way. And some people love the film, others hated it. Others found that resonant but difficult to watch, and so had to watch it in different sections. But the film, as Julian and I discussed, it explores maternal transgressions. So a sense of when you kind of break those rules of what it means to be a good mother. But in a way that is really kind of complex and fraught, we look at the kind of bad mother archetype. So ultimately, in the film, not as a spoiler alert for those who may not have watched it, but the main character leader, she leaves her children, when they are young. And she we sort of get flashbacks throughout the film of her now in her later life with adult children, and then flashing back to when she had her children when she was younger. And there's all sorts of different storylines in there around her career, her aspirations with her work, I think she has a sort of an affair, and you look at the complex relationship with her partner and the father of her children. And we've kind of have an example of the trope of the selfish woman, you know, the selfish mother, the mother, who is self interested, and who focuses on on her needs and wants and desires and who fails in many ways to live up to this idealized image of who the perfect mother is. And why I think it can be confronting for a lot of mothers to watch is because you can recognize parts of yourself within her character. And it may not be that you are her completely and that you have left your children or decided to, or thought about it, although I would argue probably most mothers have had that thought at one stage or another. But it's that actually, she she crosses those boundaries. But she you can see she also holds love and tenderness for her children. And there are times that which, you know, we've all been there when we have young children where we're, there's a scene where she's trying to I think she's trying to study or focus on something and her daughter is just at her and athearn at her and asking her questions, then I think her daughter kind of hits her. And she's sort of shocked. And it's like, don't hit me and she's trying to contain her anger. And then it kind of unravels. And we identify with that sense of being pushed to our limits as mothers and the power that we have, and that we hold the responsibility that we hold for our children's care and love and nurturance and their safety, but the ways in which we're so often left to do that on our own and we have we then have such harsh critique and self judgment when we can't live up to the idealized image of who the perfect mother is because none of us can and importantly in the film, she's mothering alone. Ultimately, she's not surrounded by community she's she doesn't have people who come in and share the load with her mentally and physically In adequate way, and so it's it's complex, but I think we can recognize parts of ourselves within a character or notice within us. What are the things that we're most repulsed by? and exploring that? And being curious about what that means about what we've internalized about motherhood? Hmm. Yeah, just a massive movie. I'm so glad that, that it's out there. And for people to be challenged by that to actually, to see somebody, like you say, crossed the line. Like, we've all probably thought about it, but we don't actually do it. And to see someone do it is massive. And it's, it's a fantastic. Like, it's like a breakthrough sort of movie. You know, like, it's probably the first time that we've seen this stuff on film. Yeah, it's fascinating. And that was thing I was really, really interested, I was thinking about how later would have survived how our experience would have been different, like you say, with the support of others, living in a different time, or different culture where she had support or, you know, mother's home to say, we're allowed to, but, you know, could do other things apart from being somebody's mother, you know, I just, I felt really felt sorry for her, I felt really like, yeah, film presented in a complex way, it's not a simple narrative. And what I really hope to try and do in my work, and for us to do as a culture is to break open this dichotomy of, you're either a mother, and you love your children, and you have this connected relationship and you've lost yourself, or you need to actually break away and step away from the mother. In order to be the self, there's these two polar opposites set up and it's like, actually know that there's a third way here, there's a way for us to flexibly move between our roles and to integrate our sense of self with our mothering and how much of a gift that is for our children. Right that we we don't need to break away pieces of, of who we are and of our own authenticity, in order to somehow hold up a mirage of them of who we are like that doesn't actually serve them so. So kind of breaking is open it and which is what the film has helped us doing in conversation is to see the complexity of the mothering role, I think that actually can offer a gifts to our children and can pave the way for deeper connection with our children true, particularly in adulthood. And it's interesting that we didn't really see later and her adult children, but we had some interactions with them on the phone that we missed. But yeah, it certainly opens a lot of different threads for discussion, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. It's wonderful, so good. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And I urge anybody who's interested in this topic at all to follow Sophie, on your socials, I'll put all the links to that in the show notes. And keep up the good work. Because honestly, you're what you're doing is amazing. And it's it's so important. And thank you, thank you, thank you for having me and for the work that you're doing as well and, and opening them holding these types of conversations to really give us space to talk about a name our experiences and for mothers to reflect on what they do and who they are and to have openings for that rather than closed little containers that you know, ultimately gives us more freedom to be able to do so. So thank you for having me on. I've really enjoyed this. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom doo doo doo ah doo doo doo doo

Katherine Collette Australian author + podcaster S2 Ep44 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Katherine Collette, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne VIC, and a mum of 2. Katherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry, in diaries, stories or to pen pals. Throughout high school it fell away until her 20s when she would write a little play or comics for friends, An engineer by trade, when Katherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life she would write a book, so she began. Her first book The Helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life. was published in 2019 and she followed up with The Competition in February of this year - 2022. Her style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of punch. Katherine also co hosts the First Time Podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Mildenhall . Katherine - website / The First Time Podcast / Purchase / Instagram Williamstown Literary Festival / Bendigo Wriers Festival / Queensliff Literary Festival Varuna Writers Retreat / The Divided Heart by Rachel Power / Rachel Power's podcast episode Podcast instagram / website Music used from Alemjo with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast has done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Katherine collet, a writer and podcaster from Melbourne, Victoria, and a mum of two. Catherine spent her childhood writing, whether that be poetry in diaries, short stories, or to pen pals. Throughout high school, it fell away until the early 20s When she would write little play or comics for friends and engineer by trade. When Catherine turned 30, she reflected on the long held hope that during her life, she would write a book. So she began her first book the helpline, based around the people she had met in her work life was published in 2019. And she followed up with the competition in February of this year. Catherine style is described as light but clever comic writing with a bit of a punch. Catherine also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow writer and previous guest of mine, Kate Miljan. Hall. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thank you so much for coming on today. Catherine. It's a real pleasure to have you. Ah, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here. Yeah. Must be nice to be the subject of a podcast rather than interviewing someone. Yeah, it is the I think that events add things to, I think the harder job is being the host, rather than being the guest. You got to be a lot more agile in how you're thinking and think of the next question. But if you're the guest, you just wait for the question and answer. It's great. You can relax a bit, just switch off a bit. And yeah, hopefully not too much of like, if you if you don't. So tell us about what you do. Sure. So I am an author. I have written two books. My first book came out about four years ago. And my second book, which is called the competition came out just over a month ago now. So I do writing. I write fiction, the type of fiction that I write is humorous fiction. And I also co host a podcast called the first time, and I believe you had my co host on the show a couple of episodes ago. She'll say, we know Yeah, it was lovely to make a she's, you guys must have so much fun when you make that podcast. It's I think it's well, I mean, we've been doing it for about four years. It started out the concept of the podcast was my first book was coming out. And she was the only author that I knew. So I kept asking her all these questions about what to expect. And yeah, we ended up making a podcast about it. And the podcast has continued since. But during the last and it's always been fun. But during the past couple of years with COVID. We're both in Melbourne, we've spent long periods of time locked down, as I suspect have, you know many of your listeners. But she really was my main touch point, aside from my family, my husband, my mom, it was Kate that I spoke to every week. And a lot of those chats are recorded. And we listened back. She made a little compilation a few episodes ago. And we listened back to the conversations just snippets that we had when COVID first hear it and then over time during lockdown, it was just a it was a really fascinating thing. She definitely kept me going but you could also hear the fatigue in our voices over time. Yeah, it's interesting to have that like little time capsule almost of that, that moment in time and sort of reliving the emotions and the uncertainty and all that sort of thing as as it went through. And yeah, I think it was fascinating because I think that period particularly at the start, you know of so much uncertainty. Yeah, to reflect back and think. Wow, I'm glad you didn't know what was coming in many ways. Yeah. So strange. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I just want to let you know that I messaged you and let you know. But I am reading the competition. I haven't finished it yet. I'm sorry, I didn't get to finish it. But I love it. I mentioned you and your message I love your sense of humor is so relatable to me. I just I read it. And it's like, I could have said it myself. It's just love it. So. Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Thank you. I really appreciate that All right, so let's go back to the beginning. How did you become a writer. I was a kid who always liked writing. I, I wrote, as a, you know, pretty early on, I would write in diaries, I had a lot of pen pals. Often people didn't realize they were pen pals with B. So they, you know, didn't always write back. But I wrote a lot of letters to people. And I also read a lot of poetry in those letters, terrible sort of rhyming stuff. So it was something that was really a part of my life early on. But it fell away, as I think it maybe is a fairly common experience in high school I was more interested in I played a lot of basketball. For one, I was probably also more interested in meeting boys. So I did, I did some writing, but mostly it was assessment based. So there was some creative stuff in there, but but not, you know, not heaps. And then in my 20s, I would do little bits and pieces, sometimes for gifts for people, like I might write a little play if they were going away, or I might write comics for them. So I had this creative element. But I mean, I'm, I'm 41 Now, when I turned 30, it just not I had a crisis, but I had this moment of thinking, my whole life, I thought I would write a book. And I realized that no one's ever just gonna tap you on the shoulder and say, Hey, you'd be amazing at writing a book. If you if you buy a if you write a book, we'll publish it, you have to just start writing the book. And so I did, and I didn't shut start with short stories. I just plunged straight in. I had met. I'm an engineer, but I was working for a brief period of time at a council doing community development sort of stuff, which I was really very good at. But there I met this president of this local senior citizens club. And she was a really intense woman a little bit problematic. I remember that she I think the first time I met her she was furious because the Chinese subgroup of senior citizens had been playing mahjong in the bingo room. And she had gotten so angry with them for doing this that she had, they had sandwiches in the communal fridge. So she threw out all their sandwiches. And, and told them that it was her fridge and they weren't allowed to keep food in it. So I met this woman, I had this desire to write. And so I wrote a story that was set around a council worker who encountered this senior citizens club. And I was obsessed. I wrote, I didn't have I, this was pre kids. But I got up every morning, I'd get up at five, I'd write for an hour, then I'd go to the gym, and then I'd go to work. And slowly that would encroach into weekends. Like I do writing on weekends. I wrote a bit on the holidays. My husband was like, it's kind of annoying. She would not do this. But yeah, so that was how I got the first draft of my novel down. And I was madly redrafting, wanting to start to send it out. When my daughter was born, that felt like a really big hurdle. But basically, I sent it out. You know, I had a few hurdles and hits and misses along the way. But that novel ended up getting published. And when it was purchased by the publisher they purchased it was a two book deal. So I I was in at that point. Yeah. Is that scary though? Knowing that you've got to then turn around and do In other words, well, I had a draft of the other one. So that certainly helped. Yeah, but it is it is daunting. Yeah, I've heard people say that it, it probably is a better example of it, that do weekly columns. And so that feeling of like, you just sent one in. And then the next day, it's like, oh, I have to do another one. Like I just finished the first one. So did definitely have that. Yeah, right. So not wanting to spoil the competition for people who haven't read it yet. Was that inspired by real life people as well, as they helped me it was, it was so the competition is set around. Public speaking club, people might have heard of Toastmasters. It's a very similar environment. But basically, I had swapped jobs, essentially, from going from engineering to working at the council. And suddenly, I had to do a lot of public speaking. So I joined the local Toastmasters Club. And I don't know if you've been to Toastmasters. I know people I know people who have. Yeah, so I so it's, it's a funny little world. I think that a public speaking clubs probably always going to be pretty awkward. And you would want a public speaking club to be awkward. Both because people are trying something that is inherently awkward. But also, if it was to cooler space, you wouldn't feel comfortable to get up like it has to be this really accepting friendly, kind of gentle place. But that also adds a layer of unusual newness I suppose like if I guess my first impression of Toastmasters was like, Oh, this would be easy to satirize. Because, well, it's awkward, it's enthusiastic, it's really positive, it sort of came out of a probably predates the self help movement on us, but it's definitely a part of it. But at the first meeting that I went to, there was another woman who had just joined and she was a, she's a transgender woman. And she was in the process of transitioning. And she talked about why got to know her over time. But basically, in that process of transitioning, she picked Toastmasters as the place that she would start that so she sort of said to the group, listen, my name is this here. But outside of this, I've called David. And if you see me in the street, don't mention, you know, my name is Greer here, don't don't mention the two things. And that always struck me that Alongside this, this place, that could feel a little bit ridiculous at times, there was something about it, that was really beautiful. If someone who is doing something that's really brave, and I imagine it's really difficult, but they feel that this is the best place to start that journey. And so I always had this view of Toastmasters. And it was a view that I maintained over time, that it was a place where people found their voice, and that there could be elements of that, that were really funny. But there were elements of that, that were really sweet and positive and important. And, and so I started writing a book about it. And the book, the competition is set around a public speaking competition in a Toastmasters like environment. And there is a character in it. It's a really minor character that is based on that original woman that I met. But that's not the focus of the story. Yeah, yeah. Do the people know that they're in your books? Like, are they aware that they've had them? She's the only one that is based on Well, I did have a senior citizens club president in the previous one but I suspect she's is dead and and she was heavily fictionalized. The this is really the only character that is more closely based on a person but she's a really small character before it before the book came out, I had because I had interviewed Gregor is the woman same before writing the book. And I said to her, Oh, would you like to read the bits that I've put this character in? And I've set up copies of the book in my she said, No, she wasn't fast. But she my launch comes up in a week's time and she's going to come to the launch, which was nice. That's but it wouldn't be. It is lovely. It would be very daunting though. If I hadn't done those things, the idea of writing about something and not being I open about that. And I can see why people, you know, could make that choice just because it feels harder. But I'm glad I did. And I mean, it was a positive portrayal. Yeah, that's the thing. You're not You're not hiding it because it was, you know, you turned it into a negative or anything. It's like, it's quite positive. And you don't mind if that person is very aware that that is them? Or based on Yeah, that's right. That's right. I guess the challenge with that, though, in that kind of example, is that it could feel very random to have a book that is set in a public speaking club. And there is just a transgender character walking around, like, it could feel like a really labored form of diversity or something like that. So I just was a bit conscious of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. So, share a little bit about a bit more about your first time podcast with I mean, I don't want to give away your secrets, because I want people to listen to it. But tell us the sort of the gist of it, I suppose. So as I said, when my first book was coming out, I had all these questions. And so I would routinely be like, okay, you know, like, my launch is coming up. What am I meant to do at the launch? Or they want me to give a speech at the booksellers conference, what should this speech be about? Or, you know, just all of these different things that I wanted her view on, I wanted to know the answers to because I think it's, I think it's a vulnerable thing for anyone releasing any type of art into the world via books, or music, or sort of visual art, those kinds of things. And so you, you sort of, I really wanted that from her. But I also was very much in this space of being a writer in a community of writers, and a lot of them were emerging writers, that would be going through the same things because, you know, they would have books published, if not now, but they just had books published. So both of us were like, Well, we think there's kind of a bit of space in this. And I think authors, particularly emerging writers also like hearing those stories of how people's books came to be sitting on the shelf. And did you get an agent? Did you enter a competition? Like, you know, was it on the slush pile, all this sort of stuff? So we started the podcast, and it always had these two parts. One part was our experiences. So me saying it was, I think, particularly in those early days, because we recorded a lot, before we had an audience, and we're releasing episodes as their audience was growing. We were both very vulnerable and saying, I feel really daunted. Yeah, so we had this one part, which was about us discussing me asking questions, the two of us discussing pretty candidly the experience of being published. And then the other part was interviewing authors, other authors about what it was like their first time. And so that was the initial starting premise. Initially, we had to not beg people to go on the show. But we certainly had to question please come on, you know, podcasts people can be a bit dismissive of, but we were like, ah, Could you could you come on our podcast and in people very kindly said, Yes. And so now I think we're into our fifth season, we are overwhelmed with people pitching like it, that part has really evolved, evolved. And you don't have to ask anymore, you've got people knocking down the doors to you to be a part of it. RedBubble. And the best part of that is, is that you get st people's books. So you just have we get lots and lots of books. So as someone who loves reading, as well as writing that, I just I constantly pinch myself and going to the mailbox and having all these books there. It's great. So that was where we began. We are now five seasons in we still interested in people's first time, and that's sort of what we're known for with our guests. We always ask them about that first time. But I guess as we've evolved as writers, we ask also about the craft of writing, as well as the publication experience. Yeah, it's been really nice. And I think what's nice about it is that you start to build a community around it, so it's got a really beautiful community and it's been such a nice thing to do. Writing can be really solitary, but this feels a bit more like a team sport. Yeah, absolutely. And it would be so rewarding to like knowing from your own point of view, what it's like, for your first time and how daunted you are, you're actually helping other people as well. I think that would be amazing feeling. It is, it's lovely. And some of the letters that we get, and emails are so touching. I keep mentioning COVID. But I think COVID is really dominated life. And we've had so many people that have messaged and said, You really got me through COVID I couldn't write I didn't feel creative. I was I couldn't meet with my writers group. But having you and Kate talking and being able to listen to you guys and hear the same struggles. And here also the your defeat your challenges in being creative at such a strange time. Yeah, so it's like they were they were, they were hearing from familiar figures in their lives. You know, it was they felt reassured, and yeah, it's like you. Even though you weren't there, you were there for people, you know. It's true. And I feel that myself with a podcast that I listened to podcasting in audio is such an intimate medium, because it's intimate. When you create it, it's just you and I sitting here, it's intimate when you listen to it, because it's generally most people listen on headphones, or, you know, maybe in the house, but they're generally listening on their own. It's only when you then realize that, you know, it's 1000 people listening on their own, that you realize what's not, you know, probably only to say everything. Not good on you that that's really awesome. I think yeah. COVID was, and it still is, you know, it's it's a time that's divided people like physically. And so having those, those connections that people can tap into, it's just been everything, it's been so important for people and yeah, good on you. And I think that community has helped us too. I remember early on in COVID, we had a listener that wrote a letter in and was saying they had just been at for Runa, which is a very well known writing retreat in the Blue Mountains. And it was in a house that was formally owned by Eleanor dark, who was a writer. And this listener that wrote in was saying that she had read Eleanor darks, diaries or something from the Second World War. And in them, Eleanor was saying that for the duration of the war, she couldn't write because she felt this creative malaise. Survival was sort of front of mind. And it just sort of felt frilly to be writing amidst all that, and something that really helped me when I was struggling to hear someone say, yeah, that is really difficult in times of hardship to want to write, but also that that malaise goes away, and that as as things in life get better. It comes back. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, it's like a, it's not a thing that's sort of reserved for this era of COVID. Like, this is an experience that people have had for many, many generations. So it's sort of reassuring in that way, you know, that you're not alone. And what you're feeling is normal. And you can feel exactly, yeah, exactly. No, that's, it's interesting. Because I found in people that I've spoken to, through this podcast, it can go either way. It's like, some musicians go bonkers. And just they've got to express how they're feeling through their art, or painters, and, and such, and others that just go nuts. Like survival mode, like you said. It's like daddies that it's like almost the primal brain kicks in. And it's just day to day looking after yourself. Looking after your family. Yeah. And everything. That's really true. Yeah. And I guess, to everyone's experience with the COVID, throughout Australia and around the world as being different to like, even you guys compared to me here in South Australia, I've had nothing compared to what you guys have gone through. So I sort of touched with that. You know, we've been really fortunate here and yeah, I don't know. It's just interesting. I think that's really true. I think it's also if you err on that side of that, I can't write I can't do anything. I've got nothing. It's really hard seeing people that Oh, my God novel fell out of my head overnight. And I've you know, written it in three days. I think we often feel that since well, I think jealousy is always a part of creative life, how much you try and engage with that and be calm. Just not to let it in, but you can feel like you're falling behind Yeah. All right, so let's talk about your family and your children. You mentioned briefly that you had your first child when you were sort of the helpline was getting going places and happening and things. And yeah, tell us a little bit more about your children. Yeah, so I've got two children, the eldest, Matilda is eight now and Oscars, six. So they're both at school. This is Oscar's second year at school. So he's in grade one. So I feel like now is a really exciting time creatively, because I get two days a week that they're both at school, and I'm not doing other types of work. So that's really exciting. But yeah, so when Tilly was born, I took a year off work, you know, stayed at home, I wrote a lot in that time, she was a good sleeper. So I was really lucky in that respect. I feel like I've been able to maintain my creative practice through motherhood, probably the bigger blip in that was having two kids, because most people with multiple kids will know, you have this idea that maybe they'll have a nap at the same time, but think that ever really happened. So I think that felt that sort of first year of Oscars, life felt like far more of a hit in that respect. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I feel lucky, like those. I feel lucky to have both to both be able to maintain a creative space and energy and be able to do that. But also to complement that with family life. I feel that one enhances the other. It can you elaborate on that a bit more? Well, I think that pre kids, that was a fear for me, like I had this sense of urgency when Tilly was going to be born, that life would change. And I had a sense that what if I can't write anymore? What if? Or what if I can't write for a long time, what if it's not until they're both at school that I can sort of pick up a PIN, I really didn't know how that would work. And I think those early days of motherhood are so hands on, there's so much sleep deprivation and all those kinds of things that whilst I enjoyed all that I I had framed it around loss, in some ways that I would lose this ability to be creative. And, and a lot of that was related to time. But increasingly, I think having kids is enhanced my creativity, both from the point of view of productivity and the lesser time that I have. But kids also awaken a different sense of curiosity in you and a sense of play, which I mean, you reading different books and seeing different words in that way. But I don't know, like, just how a child will spend an hour balancing a beanbag on one foot, or you know, those sorts of the game of life, you know, games in nothing. And there's something that's I remember being a kid and thinking, encountering adults that I knew had forgotten what it was like to be a kid and thinking, I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. I'm never going to forget what it's like to be a kid. But I think for me, it wasn't until I had kids that I remembered what it was like to be a kid like I had forgotten. Yeah, because life takes you in that direction, doesn't it? Like life expects you to be a certain way and behave, you know, this level? And it doesn't encourage times of play and and it doesn't. You wouldn't the things that you do with kids. Like I don't know, it's sometimes it's boring, like you're playing in a sandpit and that repetition of activities that really little kids like But the delight they will take in playing with an adult is really a joyful you're listening to the art of being a mom. I started doing improv comedy last year, just they do a series of like terms, basically. Yeah. And improv, particularly in the early stages has lots of games that you'll play it. And they're really fun. So something very small might be one person you're in, say, pairs. One person says, well, well, if it isn't there, and then you have to think of like an adjective, and then an occupation or a type of thing. So well, well, well, if it isn't that angry bus driver. And then the other person has to say something that an angry bus driver will say, like, oh, you know, I haven't got a good ticket to get off the bus, something, something small. But I do that. And I take a lot of those games, but that sort of thing with my kids, where you'll say, well, well, well, if it isn't there, something something. And it's just really fun seeing what they come back with and what. Yeah, I would feel silly, potentially doing that with adults, but kids are always up to that stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I work in childcare. And I, it's the perfect environment for just being yourself, like truly being yourself. Because you can be as silly as you want. You can have in the staff it everyone's the same. So there's all these banter and silliness. Like I could imagine going into my work and doing something like that, because people are just in that headspace that, you know, your inhibitions are gone. No one's judging you like, a kid's not gonna look at you and go, Oh, that's not very funny. Like, you know, it's so good. I do. Like there are certain friends I have that, that you can do that sort of stuff with my publicist for the book, the competition, we've traveled around a bit since the books come out. And she was saying when she was a kid on long car trips, obviously, you had the radio, but the radio would go out. So her family used to play this game where one of them would pretend to be a talkback radio host and the others would call in. And she said, the great joy of it was just in the name this so you sort of drive past a church and say, Oh, we're looking at churches today. Have you ever been in a church? What's the funny thing that's happened in a church? Do you like churches, you know, this sort of thing? And just the ridiculousness? We did it for hours. Like, just as we were sort of being driven from place to Oh, suitcases. Do you have a hard suitcase? You have a lost a suitcase? You know, just Yeah. So I tried doing that with my, my kids, and they have never heard talkback radio. We listen to podcasts and things. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? You sort of that's that generation. Yeah. Oh, I should try that with my kids. They would love that actually. So much fun. Yeah. Like, the more inane that it gets is just and because talkback people are so like, have such an opinion, such a singular point of view. Yeah. I can imagine your lady you said about before that it's like, yes, she'd be on Mars young into being gay. Right? Exactly. Oh, my goodness. One of the things I like to ask my guests is about how having children or being a mother sort of might have changed the way they create. And that's how it sort of has influenced you, I guess is that it brought back that ability to play and look at things differently. Maybe look at things through the eyes of a child and yeah, I think that's the real. Yeah, that's, that for me, that's what kids have brought. I think also that I've had much greater exposure to kids books. Kids books have changed a lot since I was a kid. You still have I mean, I love Roald Dahl. And I still love Roald Dahl. But even when I pick him up, I'm like all It's pretty harsh at times. You know, a lot of it is sort of carried through. But other things like I don't know if we'd get away with that now. Yeah, that's actually that's a really good point. You see some of the stuff. Yeah, I've noticed the same thing and like reading to kids at work over the years. It's like it's gone from like, almost like an adult way of writing to this completely the other way that you think you'd hear that in? Like, you know, the schoolyard like, it's not even formal enough for a book, you know what I mean? Yeah. This Yeah, the, my kids read a lot of Ra sprat, who does nanny Pickens. And anyway, she is very funny. Just listening to kids books is really fun. We listen to a lot of them on audio, on podcasts or on borrowbox, like library apps. tightenings. So I think, not only that sense of play with my own kids, but being exposed to authors who play a lot in their writing. I think there's so much more of that than there ever was, before you look at the tree house books or books that are just a bit absurd or, Yeah, funny books. Yeah. You talked before about not really knowing what to expect, like, you're thinking of things in a point of view of loss, like, will I get this back? You know, maybe how it's going to fit into my life? Did you have other members around you at the time, who were writers that you could sort of glean information from? Or are you just basically making it up as you went, I suppose I had, I had just started a writers group, there were four of us in the writers group. And I know I didn't have that, then that's a lie. So I had gone to RMIT. And I was doing some creative writing courses there. But I didn't have a group at that point. But it must have been fairly early on. When I went back, so Tilly must have been about 12 months old, and then met a couple of people. And we set up a writers group that was separate. So that was a really pivotal moment for me, in having other people around me who were writers that I could talk to, they were obviously less established writers. So they were also had pretty young kids. And we're figuring those things out. So I think it was a more lonely endeavor. By the time we're not a lonely endeavor, but probably everyone has to figure that balance of stuff out for themselves. But when my son was born, one of the girls in the writers group was Kate actually gave me a book by Rachel power coat, ah, what's the name of the divided heart. I remember breastfeeding at night, and just devouring this book, which is a book, it's a collection of interviews with creatives, writers, musicians, all different sorts that talk about particularly those early stages of motherhood and motherhood and how they fit it in. And so you would have people who were sort of literally breastfeeding to the side of the stage before going out and playing a set, and others who really had struggled to be able to do everything to be able to do anything. And, for me, that was the greatest education because it was this breadth of experience of how people had made it work. And so it sort of did reinforce that idea of you just have to figure it out. But it presented a vision of it can coexist. You don't have to give one up. You can have both, and it will be a juggler. And here are examples of what the juggler looks like. But yeah, yeah, that was huge for me. Yeah. And in fact, I've tried to give it to people who've just had babies and who are creative, and it's very hard to get. Yeah. I had Rachel on the, on the show on the podcast in season one. And gosh, she's an amazing woman to speak to. She's just, I don't even know how to describe her. She's just incredible. And the gift that that book keeps giving to people. It just it's endless, like so many people had had mentioned this book. And I actually had it I hadn't read it. I'd heard of it, but I hadn't read it. And I reckon the first three people I've spoken to had mentioned this book, I'm like, I need to read this book, and then I read it and like I need to talk to this lady that wrote it. I need to get inside her head more. And yeah, she was so generous with their time Um, it was wonderful to speak to it. It's such a known book among, like, I want to say it's niche, but it's kind of not niche because it really applies to so many women. It's just that it applies at this particular gets you at this particular stage of life. That's it isn't. It's yeah, it's an incredible book. Yeah. I approached my interview with with Rachel, like, I didn't want to be complete fangirl. You know, you might be like, actually, when you speak to authors, it's like, I need to contain myself. But I'm so excited to speak to it. And I just wanted to to really understand from a layperson, that what she's done is just been incredible. And the gift that she's given to so many people, and yeah, just how grateful we all are, you know, for does she know that I imagined check and save a lot. Does she think? Yes, I hope she does. If you're listening, I hope you get it. Push it really to me. What in, in what I have seen, it is the only book of that kind of milk that I have discovered. And it is a very beloved book. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So. So yeah, like, I think what, what I've sort of taken from that, what you're just saying is like, you can see what other people do, you can't exactly copy what they're doing. Because everyone's life is different. But it's reassuring to hear everyone's going through it. And we can make it work. And like you said, these are some ways that you can sort of manage that, that juggle. And I think it helps with that. You can feel very judged in that juggle at times, particularly in a creative juggle is very distinct from a work juggle, because at least a work juggle is bringing money in. Whereas the creative juggle, might not bring money in at all, or a very small amount of money relative to return. So that tension, I think, is what profound in that space. It's a whole, like, I can never say it right? It's not a kettle of worms. It's a can of worms, can I get my kettle of fish in my cameras? But that is it like the value that artists have been honest, a forced in inverted commas, because I don't really believe we bring it on ourselves. It's something that society and external judgment has brought upon us that we, if things are only a value, if that's a monetary value, and that's a horrible thing to say, unless you can commercialize it, unless it's part of capitalism, society, it's what is it worth, you know, and that's a really, really sad thing with so I think it's so deeply ingrained that in many people that many people don't even realize like one of the things people always ask you, when your book comes out, or when it's been out for a little while, it's generally not other writers or other authors that would ever ask this, but just kind of people that are outside of that world is Oh, what a sales like, Did you which, and I can understand that compulsion to ask that. But it's, it's such a fraught question for someone producing creative because it's so diminishes the worth of something to this volumetric measure, when equally, they could say, you know, what's been the response? or what have you, you know, like, there's so many other ways that you could measure the success of a thing to talk to sales is, is Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Some of the moms I've had on this show, have felt the judgment from not their own parents, but like parents in law, about there's one example of a lady that the mother in law would look after the brother's children because the mum was going to work like an actual job, but she wouldn't look after her children because what she was doing wasn't deemed as being worthy enough to have childcare. You know, it's like this, this massive judgment that comes at you from all angles. That kind of ties into one of the things I love to talk to moms about is this whole concept of mum guilt. What's your sort of take on that in relation to, to creativity? I think, I think Mum, guilt is hard to escape on some level. What has made a massive difference for me and I would say it's probably in other writers lives as well is publication. So pre, it's like that gives something a legitimacy and a validation that all of those years where, you know, you might get an article here or a short story here and all that stuff is the real turning point in terms of perception, because I think there is a relationship. And, like a real life relationship between perception and and that kind of valuing of what you're spending your time doing. There's also an element that is in your head as well. Yeah, I don't suffer majorly from guilt. Because I guess for a lot of years, I tried to make my writing as invisible as possible. So I would get up at five o'clock or 430. Before kids, pre COVID, I would leave the house, we have a 24 hour McDonald's nearby, I would spend that, you know, be back by 7am, which, you know, I'm in a privileged position to be able to do because I have a partner who was in bed at that time. So I did work really hard to kind of make that as invisible as possible. Because I have now got two books out, I've been able to carve out more time. But I remember when Tilly was I think she was about nine months old. And she might have been 10 months. And I got my very first fellowship to go to a writing retreat at Bruna at this retreat that I've mentioned before, and it was a full week all on my own. And I was so unbelievably excited, because it was a really validating thing to have one in the first place, but also because I had a 10 month old baby like to be away from that child was like hard, but I was gonna love every minute of it as well. Yeah. And I think I even weaned Tilly in order to go, which I would not have told people at the time, but I didn't want to be pumping milk and being at this retreat the whole time. Yeah, a week. Oh, my God, having is the worst. Anyway, so my husband and I were in Sydney and I was going to catch a train to Verona. And so I was in this like, great, joyous mix of excitement and all the rest. And he got up at sort of 5am put to leave the car and they drove off. And so I lay luxuriating in bed and was just about to get onto the train, and was just pure, pure excitement. And you know, like, I'll miss you, but I'm so happy. Anyway, he called me at like 730. And something had happened with the car. And they've been driving. And he what had happened, the brakes had failed. So he was trying to slow the car down and pushing on the brake and nothing was happening. So he was stuck on the freeway with no way of like slowing down. And so he managed somehow to get the handbrake to go on. We just got to get like 100 kilometers now. So it's like this real near death experience. And it was so like, it was awful and crashing on multiple levels. But I remember feeling really worried but also, if I hadn't have been if I hadn't have been going off to do my writer's retreat or why myself that would like it was such a guilt laden moment, even though it was complete chance. And me having been there or not, wouldn't have made a difference. Yeah, there's just yeah, like, did you get to go on your retreat still? Or did they did and I still had a great time. But I always whenever I think of that retreat, I think of this need if that was it, the cruise control got stuck on and he couldn't turn the cruise control off my God. So it just kept the car kept barreling along so it's it's really frightening thing. But whenever I think of that retreat, I also think of the two of them having this near death experience. And it is overlaid with joy and guilt. So as much as I sort of am conscious of it and try not to feel it. It's it's yeah, it rears its little head. I love that. And I love that you didn't go back and save them in the lucky which rich rage because like, like you said, like what would have been nothing would have changed. If you were in that car, the same thing would have happened. It's like I would have made it worse because I would have been like ah like I didn't die. So it's probably better for everyone that I was I had topic that I like to raise with my guests is about identity about how the concept of how you saw yourself changed when you became a mum. Did you sort of have any To sort of experience where you went, I mean, you did talk about before, how you were concerned that you may not be able to write again. Yeah, identity is an interesting one. I think that I have never been a person that has, when I became a mother that that became my single identity. And I'd probably say that from even when I worked, I worked as an engineer, I really struggled to say I'm an engineer, were to take that honest identity, like some people do really take their job on as an identity I never really did that. I struggled to take on I'm a writer as an identity, which probably is more impostor syndrome, you know, is, is probably the source of that more than anything. So with motherhood, I was obviously a mother, but I never saw that as a singular entity to how I was. And I think part of that was, I was able to write in those early days of motherhood, you know, a couple of months in that sort of stuff, I did go back to work. So I didn't spend, I spent a year off, but I didn't spend a prolonged period of time. So I think that really helped. I have a tendency to obsession, like I could very easily focus singularly on art, like I have to be very conscious of what is important to me in life. And I want to have strong relationships with my kids and my partner and be in the world. But I have to really be conscious to balance that and to not let obsession with writing and those kinds of things overtake it's a really conscious effort for me. Yeah, yeah. It's you find that but like, how do you I'm an all or nothing person that my psychologist has told me that many times, I, I get fixated on things, and I have to do them. Or conversely, I just couldn't do it about anything. Like it's really odd. Yeah. Like, if I've got something in my head that I want to achieve, I'll do it. But that's very rare. I'm a very unmotivated person generally. That's like, when I watched the Olympics, and you hear people their story, like, they broke their leg, but they came back, and then something else happened. And they came back, I just think, God, I would have just given up after the first thing, you know, I'm not that person at all. So I have so much admiration from people that do that. But yeah, I I'm a bit I'm a bit the same sometimes. And then I sort of think, ah, who's cooking tea tonight, you know, like, just getting this. I'm just doing doing doing and I'm like, Oh, I lift my head up and go, Oh, what's happening in the world? You know, I think it's as well like, the tension we often have in my house is my husband is a much neater person than I am. So, yeah, I can really, I can live in fields, but like, as long as there's no like dirty food and dishes and that sort of stuff. Like I can absolutely, I can tune it out. It doesn't bother me and I sometimes think, like not to overstate it. That's a gift in life, too. Because I was not someone who when the child was napping, I wasn't like, I'll quickly tidy that never occurred to me. I was there was not going to happen. I can completely relate to that. Like right, what can I do now in 45 minutes? Jumping this just exactly which I think is what you have to do, like, in those early stages in those early days of motherhood. If you are the stay at home and the babies you're doing 90% of the caregiving oh my god you can't be cleaning your house in the 45 minute nap that that child has. No, absolutely. Just makes me weary thinking about it actually. I know. But you also have to be tolerant like you have to be able to stand the mess Oh, that's the thing, isn't it? You do but you do you get you get used to a level of discomfort that then sort of disappears it's like I can handle that being there can i Yes, I can but I don't even say anymore it's absolutely spotless. Oh my gosh. It's hilarious. So do you feel I know your children are six and eight, they're very capable of seeing what's happening around them. Is it important to you that they see what you're doing and what you're contributing to the world? Yeah, I think I think it's really important. And they are really proud of that to my son in particular, is, I think, my best PR agent in the world, he will always tell when he talks to his teachers and says all mums, you know, last year, he was saying all mums written a book. And this year, he was like, Can I take the book in for my teacher and to this fit, like, he tells everyone, we went into a bookshop recently, and my book was on the shelf. And he was quite a small shop. And he was very loudly, ma'am, there's your book, and I was sort of, like, cost cash Don't, don't don't. And then when we came out, and he's like, You should be so proud. Why why, you know, like, really, really sweet. So I think it's really positive for them. I think I didn't grow up in a household that, you know, when people talked about where they were artistic people in it, people read a lot and, you know, went to theater and shows and likes things, but the idea of doing it yourself was pretty foreign. So I really liked that that's a possibility for them. But they also, and I think this is good to see that you're generally not going to make a living from it, it will bring you great joy, you can have a lot of success with it. But from a fiction writing perspective, it would be 20 authors in Australia, you know, a pretty small number that get to write full time. Yeah. Yeah. So they're learning early on the realities of hanging out? Well, that it's it coexists. And it's an important part of life. But it's you might not want to put all your eggs in that basket, but also, equally, you might want to retreat, arrange your life, so that there's space for that. So you know, you can, you don't have to work full time, you don't have to, you know, be ambitious, I think we look so much to work as to give people fulfilment. And I think that's not a message that my kids get, not to say that you can't enjoy work. And that work, you know, I work in the environmental space and sustainability stuff, I think is, is really important. And so I want them to understand that responsibility. But also that, that creativity is an important thing, too, because we look so much to sport in Australia. And, and, and I know sport has a health dimension, but so did the arts. And you can pick up all those skills around teamwork by being in the theater or dancing or, you know, it's doesn't need to be so singular. Yeah, I had a conversation with the, for the podcast with a lady who is overseas, and we were talking about what happened during COVID. What stopped and what didn't stop. And I was just like, reflecting on the fact that even though they were locked down to the restrictions, hundreds of male footballers were allowed to move around this country like COVID didn't exist. But then on the other hand, every performer, you know, anyone who was doing something in the public eye that wasn't bored, just had the rug pulled out front of them, it was just really, really showing what caught our culture in Australia values. And it was really sad. Absolutely. And meanwhile, you know, 99% of the population are watching Netflix and consuming the culture that that artists produce is when I said to someone, like, everything that we touch, everything that we listen to, and we consume has been made by someone, a creative person has made that and I think we forget that, that. It's like, if we cut the arts off, you wouldn't have the radio, you wouldn't have the TV, you wouldn't have your Netflix, you wouldn't have music, you wouldn't have, you know, houses, you know, everything would start you wouldn't be driving a car because now we'll be creating, you know, beautiful cars, it would just everything would stop. And no one thinks about it in that way, like the government said. It's yeah, it's hugely disappointing. And I think that valuing of not only sport, but male sport, yes. Is just makes it particularly disappointing particularly, you know, given the role models that sports men often playing, there are a lot of issues that I think the creative types are Uh, you know, more across. You don't see them in the paper, you know, upon sort of sexual assault or harassment charges and those sorts of things, or sitting sitting in hotel rooms, snorting cocaine or something. I don't know. Sorry, maybe maybe they're doing it, but we just don't know. better at not getting caught. That's right. No, honestly, it really has been a massive eye opener, and not in a very nice way. Would you do you have anything else that you wanted to share? Like what you've got coming up? I mean, you mentioned that you've got like your official launch? Do you want to share? Sort of? I think I've got a few festivals there'll be at I could share about Yeah, so I will be at Queenscliff and Williamstown writers festivals at those. I'm talking with Tony Jordan, who is an author that I'm a huge fan of. So that feels like a very special moment. And I'm also going to Bendigo, where I will be thinking a session with Kate talking about the first time podcast, I think we're doing a live recording. Oh, cool, beat a lot of fun. And so those are coming up in May and June and the details will be on my website. Awesome. That is so cool. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just been so nice. So nice. So nice to think about creativity and kids. Like this feels like the podcast version of Rachel's book. That's incredibly flattering. Thank you. I think that's what we need. Like it has a bigger impact on women than it does on men to adventive children. Absolutely. Yeah. He's good. Keep up the good work. Likewise, thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Bethany Kingsley - Garner UK ballerina S3 Ep86 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley-Garner, a ballerina from the UK and mother to her 18 month old daughter.. Bethany was born in Devon, England and moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined Scottish Ballet in 2007, was promoted to Soloist in 2013, and to Principal in 2016. She has been there ever since. She was first drawn to dancing through the music, her mother would play Classic FM at home and she recalls as a 3 year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copy her. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the Wyre Drawer company leavers prize, as well as the April Oldrich Award for Most Dynamic Performer and receiving First Commendation and Young British Dancer of the Year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 productions, from Swan Lake to The Nutcracker, and recent performances of The Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US of The Crucible, in the role of Elizabeth Proctor. She's also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Bethany - website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website Throughout this episode you'll hear music from various popular ballet procductions, used with permission thanks to my APRA AMPOS licence. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also strain to territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a man would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on has been the bone take people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. Thank you so much for tuning in today. It's such a pleasure to have you. I've been feeling a bit under the weather so I've been putting off recording this intro to haven't had much of a voice. But today, I'm feeling pretty good. My guest this week is Bethany Kingsley Garner. Bethany is a ballerina from the UK and a mother to an 18 month old daughter. Bethany was born in Devon in England and she moved to London as an 11 year old, leaving her family to train at the Royal Ballet School. She joined the Scottish ballet in 2007 and was promoted to soloist in 2013 and two principal dancer in 2016. She has been there ever since. Bethany was first drawn to dancing through the music. Her mother would play classic FM at home, and she recalls as a three year old being moved by the music. She used to follow her sister to ballet lessons and always tried to copier. Bethany graduated from the Royal Ballet School with honours in 2007 and received the wire drawer company leaders prize as well as the APR which award for most dynamic performer and receiving first commendation and young British Dancer of the year. Throughout her 17 years in Scotland, Bethany has been involved in over 36 Productions, from Swan Lake to the Nutcracker, and recent performances of the Snow Queen and the upcoming tour of the US presenting the crucible in the role of Elizabeth proctor. Bethany has also been involved in developing and creating many productions and characters throughout that time. Throughout this episode, you'll hear music from various popular ballet productions, which I can use thanks to my APRA amcos Mini online licence. I really hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you Bethany. It's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hi, thank you for Gabby God, I'm excited to speak to you because in in whole time I've been doing this a couple of years. I've only had one other. I'm not gonna say ballerina because I don't think that do you like to be called a ballerina? I can be called ballerina you can be okay because I had a principal dancer from the Australian ballet. And she didn't want to be called a ballerina. She just want to be called principal dancer. So I've had two ballet dancers on my podcast now which is really exciting. So we're about to you at the moment to paint a picture for the listeners. I'm currently in Scottish ballet HQ, which is in Glasgow in Scotland. And we are back in our studios. We are mid tour of the strangeling at the moment so we are leaving to Newcastle today. Oh wow. Literally in the thick of it right now. Yeah, we're nearly at the end. We started about two months ago so we are we're close to the end and we had 74 shows of The Snow Queen this year. Holy moly. Is that how many days a week he performing that so we have a performances Wednesday to Saturday and there's three double show days. Where houses Batson that I mean this is the thing I discovered. Data Stephenson who As the other ballerina I've had on the show, she blew my mind with how much work you guys do like not just the performance, but then all of the rehearsing. And then like you rehearsing probably new shows while you're performing. The show the doing it was like, blew my mind. How are we on the show on the road? We don't stop then making it better or rehearsing or keeping the stamina up. So yesterday, I still rehearsed for Newcastle this week, even though I've done how many shows? Yeah, keeping it fresh, keeping it in the body? Tell us how you first got into dancing. How did you get first into the ballet music? Yeah, it was my mom used to play classic FM at home. And I remember even from the age of about three or four. So my first memories of just feeling something in my veins in my DNA and wanting me to move almost out of my control. And that was I guess the start of me developing into the ballerina I am today. So I was had a very supportive family who supported me all the way through that journey. And I went to the Royal Ballet School in London, at 11. And now I can't even imagine being a mother. That kind of pain that my family went through, but they knew that that's what I wanted to do. And I graduated with honours in 2007. And then I came straight to Scottish ballet. But it was a really beautiful journey. I had an I had a lovely time. I had a lot of time at boarding school. I think it's when you're around people that love this art form and around people have the same interest. And that really makes it because before when you're kind of a normal primary school, you're juggling both you're doing academic you may be any two in your year group that like to dance. So all of a sudden you're put into this world of the whole year group doing all together so that was really lovely. And you wouldn't have those outside distractions to you'd be like supremely focused on that you want to attend. I mean, I'm extremely homesick especially for the first time I say three to maybe four years. But something kept me there. Something in my you know, my heart my soul. I remember counting down the days before the weekend. Every night but I once I was into it, I was fine. Yeah, so we're about the suit was you're like Where were your family in relation to where were you in in you being in London. So they are in the south country. So in Devon, so it's around a drive around three hours drive. And very different countryside beaches, very rural. And then kind of you're in the centre of what especially the Upper School of London, you're in Covent gardens, you're already in the hustle and bustle. So two very contrasting worlds. Hey, just Well, you've mentioned Devon is that I went to London many years ago and we caught a train. I'm not very good with this geography. It was a place called pool is that anywhere is that we're even further down so right at the very bottom you've got Cornwall and then Devon so it's really the bottom of Southwest. Yeah, right. Is it got like big cliffs and stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, I can I can visualise I reckon. I think it might be a popular place for people like making movies and stuff and TV shows because I swear I've seen I've Googled it before and I would have done yeah, did you so you live you've lived up in Scotland since you joined by going on to my my 17th season next year with squid. That's my that's awesome. Wow. And I noticed you haven't really picked up an accent. No, I really haven't. I my husband's Scottish and he's quite roared. No, I really haven't. Maybe because it's still I'm still surrounded by not, you know, in our work environment. We don't have really broad Scottish accents and maybe that's why on the webpage for the Scottish ballet, your, your your page that features you, there's this amazing photo of you, which I if you'll let me I want to share with the listeners in the in a link. You just like it's black and white. And you've like got wings as part of your costume and you're like, you look like this bird of prey, basically. And you've got these massive beautiful eyes like really dark makeup diamonds on Oh, it's just stunning. It's just like, whoa, was that for role was that for like a photoshoot? That that was for the role of the self and Matthew Barnes Highland fling. Wow, I'm gonna have to read to you. I actually made it. You know, I was jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, right? You try and just kind of using my arms like wings, and they and they got the perfect. Oh, it's just unreal. I was just, and it like, it like slaps you in the face. When you come on to your why'd you like, Wow, that's incredible. So, as part of your dancing, I guess in addition to the music and the costumes, there's quite a lot of acting. And like detail encompassing the character? Do you really enjoy that side of it as well, I love that. There's not, I don't believe there are many jobs out there where you can actually transform into someone else for you know, a few hours and become that kind of emotional connection. And emotive and then come out of it and go in character in there. And I guess be a mom. That's what makes you into your kind of your depth character as well. You keep digging deeper into roles, especially now that I'm on my, you know, going into my 17 season. There's roles that I've done before. So that's nice to keep coming back as now I feel completely different to how I felt, you know, a few years ago. Yeah, absolutely. Before we start talking about you, your transition to motherhood, I really want to ask, do you have like some particularly favourite roles that you've played over the years. So the most challenging is probably Swan Lake. And I think that dancers love a challenge and the physical challenge. But also, it's one that you just feel like you have left everything on the stage. So you could almost walk off and you could see your blood, sweat and tears line there. So you really give everything one that's very close is the Snow Queen what we're doing at the moment, I was part of the creation process three years ago. And it just has a real special place in my heart and I feel otherworldly when I perform it really, really connected to the work. Yeah, that's cool. Do you find with Swan Lake, do you feel any sort of pressure because people know it so well? Like your audience has probably seen it or heard of it before? Do you feel that pressure to? I don't know, live up to maybe people's expectations? Probably not cracker. I actually feel that everyone knows music. Yep. But no, actually, I didn't feel that was Swan Lake. I felt very much I am. This is this one I'm going to be? Yeah, I felt empowered with that. Yeah, you bring your own and your own take on I guess. I have a daughter Elizabeth, who is 18. She's 18 months where? So how did it go then? And I'm just going back to I guess the previous conversation I've had had with Jana that you can feel so much pressure as a dancer that your career is going amazing. And it's usually at that same time is when you're in your childbearing years. So it's often a real pool of what do you choose to do? I guess Did you feel anything like that when you're thinking about having your daughter? No. Maybe I'm on the I'm on the other end. I feel that I'm the it for now. So maybe I left it to a point where I felt as if I had reached a certain level in my career. There's no you never go into thinking about having a child. Knowing that you'll definitely come back? I think because you don't know. So I think that probably had more of an impact on me, then, kind of where I was. I mean, it was very quick for me to feel that I knew I wanted to come back. But I always had that had, at the back of my heart, in my mind, be prepared to have something else in your, you know, ready. If this wasn't the life you wanted with your family. Did that did that sort of bring you a lot of sadness, thinking that you might not go back to dancing was that like a really big decision to sort of, to think that that might happen? I feel that I will never not want to do it. Because it's part of who I am. It's, it's in my, you know, I've mentioned, it's in my DNA. That's how that's how I feel. But I know that I would like to do something else. And I look back, and I feel extremely proud of this length of career and what I've given it so far, there will always be sadness, because it's something that you've dedicated your life to. But now as a mother of it's, I feel it lated now and so much love for another another life also, huh? Yeah. Did you have it in your head? Right from the start that you try and come back? I guess it did things go well, then that you're able to come back when you want to I had about, I talked to my director and I had about five different scenarios. ABCD and you know, all because, you know, respectfully, they're also running a business. So for a principal dancer to dip out for a long period of time, I'd always want to let them know. Roughly when they're thinking about the planning and, and everything we actually did go with Plan A, which was very surprised. But I had, I think the smooth the birth was ever so smooth. Yeah, the recovery was very smooth. So that all went into factors. But you you know, you have no idea. You need that many different scenarios, because each step of the way something can happen. emotional implications of when you're suddenly there with your child have the thought about going back to work, huh? Yeah, yeah. All those all those things, but I, I never really stopped moving. Even when, when I was she was home and maybe two weeks, I had her in the sling rocking, I used to sign on to, you know, some ballet classes from home and just enjoy that movement. And that bonding time with her. I was sharing that world that life. She was now in it with me. And that was lovely. Now that's That is awesome. And I think like, a lot of the moms I have on the show. They like you that you have something that you love so much. Like you just think you've got to keep doing it. You know, it's just part of you and you couldn't you couldn't really imagine not doing it and you sort of find ways to keep doing it and make adjustments you know, now that you're a mother she obviously knows that. I was a dancer. Yeah, she died when she was a few weeks old in my tummy when I was doing class, but yeah, she does. Yeah, she's always by my side. So we are a touring company. So she tours with me. And it's actually quite nice because we kind of get a little bit more time on tour on my hours or less with performing so I'm kind of not in the you know, in the studio all day and she comes to the theatre she may be watching the end of class laughs I take her on stage to watch a show. And that's just things like that, you know, I was sat with her on the set of snowpine. It's got a beautiful throne. And at that moment, when you're in the performance, you're sat there looking into a piece of ice. Just about to do the last part of the really tough on your point, you're really tired. And I had her with me sat there, and we just had a picture. And I was showing her the throne. She was playing with the fare on it. And now I'm on stage and I'm sat there and that's my memory. I have almost I can smell her. And it gives me so much strength. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's beautiful. I got goosebumps when you talk about that. Like, it's it's beautiful. Like, she's literally part of that world. Like, yes, she's there. Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. Do you feel like it's important to you that she sees what you're doing? Like, I mean, I guess at her age, she hasn't got this concept of perhaps identity, the way we construct in our minds, but she's not, you're not just her mom, you have a life where you do things just on your own. I'm always knew. And you know, very much the same path as Stewart, my husband as well, that we wanted her to come in to our life. But in a way our life is how it is. Because it's the happy it's working. It's full of love. And I was quite strong on having that connection of who I am in the ballet world in the studio, that she was also in it. I think it's not a great territory when you try and keep them to separately. Because it, I find that I have no kind of stresses or worries, because if I need to have her here, then I'll bring her if I need to step away, then I will go and I think it's taking that control and that's that's my family life and that will come first. So you're talking about you're a touring company. So how far away do you go? Like what sort of an average tour I suppose an average tour is not too far. It's about the weekend at the Scottish main cities like Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, and then we come further down south to Newcastle. But we are going to America next year where she will be coming. So that'll be fun for that flight. Yeah, so we do we tour about three times a year. So that's like kind of our main bulk everything. Yeah. And then the rest of the time you rehearsing. Always rehearsing and we're seeing ballet class. Oh, yeah. That's unreal, isn't it? Do you? Do you sometimes think about your life and think this is amazing that I get to do what I love so much. Like do you have those moments where you just, I think like when I put my bike tights on in the morning, I think this is bizarre. Like it's sometimes you know, when I look around the room at people early in the morning doing doing a play is weird but wonderful world that it's just acceptable to be wearing lycra all day. And feel comfortable in it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, there's no judgement. like to talk to all my moms on the show about this concept of mom guilt, and I put that in air quotes, because I know some people don't feel it and that's awesome. And then others have issues and struggles with it, but I wanted to know what your thoughts were about it. My first emotionals reaction to feeling that I wouldn't be with her all the time was when. I mean, we actually had to put her in her own room. We knew It was time. And it was I was by her crib, she'll bedside crib and just crying for so long. The thought of her being on her own three steps away from me was, you know, heartbreaking. And I guess that's the kind of the process isn't it of finding the independence between mother and child. But that was a huge I really was. I guess it took me a little bit of surprise how physical I reacted to that feeling of just of just pushing her having her own space to sleep. Which she absolutely loved. So it was totally on me. Nothing on her. Yeah, she was fine. Then, when I first went to the theatre I had been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm gonna be back the smell of the side stage, the laying out my changing room. And I was in the car. I left it so my husband say that she would have been asleep. It was late in the evening, we had dinner and I gave my first dress rehearsal. And out just out of nowhere in the car. The tears tears came. And it was I stopped for a minute and thought is this is this? What you want to do? Is this right for her? Is this right for the family everything. And it was just it was all our I was the only one feeling there. You know, she was touched up at home. And I knew that then when I went back the next day. Well, she would when she broke up. I would have felt so good. That I was I managed to do both in a in a way that was still no one lost out except for maybe my emotions, but I would take that for anything. Yeah, I think that's how I kind of just constantly going back thinking okay, is this life is this spy world? Is this job working for the family? Is it making us happy and, and loving? And are she getting? We're getting the most time together? And it always comes back to Yes. So the feelings I'm feeling it and you just take the brunt don't you? Just go I take it. Yeah, yeah, that's that. That's that's really good. Because I feel like there's no escaping. There's no escaping that emotional pool. There's no escaping that. And then I think it's like gorgeous. Yes. I mean, it's what makes us a mother, isn't it? You know? But then it's that next step of like, you could have turned around and gone back home that night, you know, in the car. Oh, yeah. But it's like that what we do next? That's that's our beat. Then we go ride a lot. And like you said, we were that that emotional pain. We go oh, that, you know, you're but then we go on? And we do and like you said you felt you knew you were gonna feel amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a funny old thing that that mom guilt, isn't it? Someone said, there's a lady I had on the show. I can't remember who it was now. So apologies. But she she had this idea that mom guilt was this. It was a innate ingrained thing from biological evolution that basically made us not forget the child, you know, like, it was just, you know what I mean? Like, it was just something that had to be in us to make us you know, not leave it out, where it could be endangered, you know, in, I don't know, in the caveman days or something, you know, like something like that? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. The another thing I like to really chatter about is the changes in our own identity when when we become a mom. How did you cope with that? Now, I'm a very different person, but I didn't see that I didn't feel the change, it just happened. And the differences is I definitely know who I am. I think when you go through something that's like a child. And it's you're just giving everything and you're not thinking it's not you in that moment. It's not you in that time, it's you're giving you reach a point in your life. But you know, the people which have been able to have this amazing thing happened to them. Very rarely are you at that point where you would do anything? You're doing everything to have a this dispersed. And just, I think more I use the word empowered, but not in a way of Yeah, gritty. Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's in a way of mothering, of embodied and gathering, I feel the strength from everything that I'm, I'm doing, I can arrive at work, and I've been up to six hours, just silly things, but it makes you feel like, okay, I'm a, I'm okay, today, I'm what you knows is everything settled and happy. And so that's how I feel, and nothing to lose, I now have nothing to lose. For myself for her and, yeah, no, I love that. That's really that's really cool way of putting it. So before we talked about, that, you've done a couple some roles that you've done more than once. And I wanted to take you back to that about him. You said how when you're at different stages in your life? Have you had any sort of times where you've been very conscious of the fact that now that you are a mother that you approach the rolls differently? Or is it just something that happens with time? So I didn't prep you for this one. Um, my first season back, I did the ballet called My scandal at Milan. And I play two roles. And one of the roles was a bride that actually was a you know, it was a bedroom scene, but it was extremely rough and violent. And this is my first season that year after. So I felt a lot more in tune of where I was being touched, right. And whereas pre birth, I guess, physically, I would have just ran into that not even second, and then it was cool. Oh, yeah, it was a little bit more tentative. I wasn't in my own skin yet. Now I am. But this unit, you're talking maybe seven months after? So you're really like, is my leg coming with me? Or is it still on the other side of the room? On the floor today, or are they going to be touching like it was really sort of, but I had heart and soul in it. But yeah. So physically, that's, I'm not as carefree as I was with my body. Letting maybe awesome fight or flight mode. I'm a bit nervous being lifted. Never used to. Yeah. But now I have something to seriously not get injured for. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Is it bigger? There's a bigger picture. Somebody gets scared of flying or you know, height. And it's that similar thing of, I'm a bit more careful with myself. That's a really that's a really cool observation, isn't it? Yeah. Because I guess if you weren't in the inner city ration where you were really shocked around and you might not ever notice the basic things like when you're crossing the road by yourself or when you're crossing the road with your child. You're very different. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, can I make the lights off? Nope. We're gonna wait for the Green Man. Yeah, I think it's that similar thing. But she was in me, even though she wasn't in the studio at the time, just as I was getting back. So that's the main shift I found out, huh? Yeah, I thought that's really cool. There's a lot of us that may or may not be able to relate to that. Because it's the level of physicality that some of us may or may not have. But that's a really cool observation. I really liked that. I also wanted to ask, how did you find, you know, when you're pregnant, and you get that, like, I can't think what the thing is. It's like elastin or something happens in your hormones release these. What's it called? relaxing? Relaxing? Yeah. Did that change your your body heat, and it took so long to go? Yeah, right. So where I think you just feel more gooey. But you know, you're carrying you want, you don't want the body to be whole, stiff, you want it to be looser, I felt a lot at the back of my knees. So when we straighten things, normally, they would kind of lock and I had so much still in it still, when I was back that seven months that my legs were a bit like chicken legs, they were still sort of rebounding back. Yeah. And structurally, physically, you know, my physical shape has changed, probably not to, you know, an audience member. But to my own, maybe the people closest around me. It's that hip structure. It's the the widening the ribcage, you know, when you go through something like breastfeeding. It's the more broad you get in there. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. And that's yeah, and being doing something that you you're so aware of your body, it'd be interesting to to see those little nuance changes. And yeah, I did a lot of them. I worked with my physio through the whole time. But just that was really interesting. Just working on things like my turnout. So you know, in dance, classical ballet, the main thing is we have to rotate from the tops of our legs. Well, if my pelvis changes just a tiny bit, how would that how would that tweak that? Yeah, yeah, that's very interesting, isn't it? I find it really fun. I guess Yeah. Somebody else I've started talking to moms about lately, especially moms who you know, have who work it use their art as you know, a career when you were growing up, what sort of role modelling did you have from from your own upbringing about what a mother could look like? What you sort of options were as a as a mother I guess. So my mum was so passionate, so passionate to let us fulfil our dreams and confidence building and I think I can see myself now with Elizabeth just imparting little things. I know you can do you know what walking, you can do it? No, you can. So I had that kind of structure and I had an older sister who was very fat, very musical, but very outgoing and confident. So I think those those things in your life they rub off on you. They are an upper New and then I guess in the kind of artistic world. There were just so many so many dancers from the Royal Ballet that used to watch and see teachers as he used to impart a few words of wisdom, I do a little bit of teaching now. And it can make or break students. And that's, you know, a such a powerful role of being a teacher. Especially when you're maybe more of a vulnerable age, as a giant where you hold on to every word, I think we can probably all remember, a praise. And we can all remember a negative thing that has, you know, it's so important. Definitely, you think about that when you're raising a child of the implications of words. And think of what they will pick up on. So important. It's pretty powerful, isn't it? Because I think a lot of time we sort of, we might use a term as a throwaway term or say something we don't necessarily mean, but that's what your child he is. And then they hold on to that. Yeah, so yeah, it's when when you just said about you'll always remember praise and, you know, a negative comment straightaway, I just went, went back to little Alison doing singing lessons like it just straightaway, back to that space. Like it's yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy. It is, isn't it? Yeah. stuff. I haven't thought about it for years now. But okay. Thanks. I'll leave that bit. So, tell us where you're going. We will be going on to our spring season, which is the Tennessee Williams story of A Streetcar Named Desire. Oh, awesome. Oh, love is a ballet that we have done before we actually created it a Scottish ballet a few years ago. So I'm revisiting it, which is going to be so lovely. And I love the story ballet. And then we will be touring that in the spring, around to Aberdeen, Inverness and Glasgow, and the spring seasons, always the nicest because of the blossoms and blooms and the weather. Just start starting in Scotland. It's not always great, but it just starts to free up the frost. Yeah, and you get blue skies. And then we will be preparing for our American tour in May, which is to Washington, Charleston and Nashville, like so. And will that be the same show that you were to the crucible? So another story? Yeah, right. It's funny. We were just talking about that today. Sorry, on a completely different I'm just I was just talking about that today with my son. Yeah. Because it's something which Charles Yeah. Elizabeth proctor? Oh, pregnant. It's just I mean, you know, I couldn't play a more authentic role. Really? It's just lovely. Oh, how exciting. Have you done that one before? Is that a new one for you? I actually created an Elizabeth proctor around about four years ago. And I have performed it now being a man we performed it back in London. Yes, and this has been my second time now. Oh, lovely. Oh, that's exciting. So I'll put some links in the show notes where people can check out where you guys are and if you're in the neck of the woods, I say hello. All moms just sometimes just pat themselves on the back and be like You're awesome. I think to your friends, you maybe don't have children. I think it's it's a really lovely trait that they you know, they try and you keep those conversations and you try and understand and still meant bringing your children into because that's also another huge dynamic shift. I'm actually the only dancer in the company currently with a child. Yeah, right. So just just things like that, but I don't feel it's a, because she's constantly in the conversation or they ask and I think keeping things like that open is important. Yeah, she's a part of it. It's not. It's not like this this taboo subject that we don't talk about with Bethany. You know, it's, she's, she's part of it all. Yeah. All thank you so much for coming on. Like, it's just been so lovely chatting to you, and all the rest with your dancing and on your tour and everything and oh, yeah, I'll keep I'll keep my eye out for you. If you ever come to rescind your Alia, I know. Please. I mean, I will keep you know on social media with you. And if it's anything else, from a UK tie in, I'm here and I'm for you. And yeah. Oh, thank you. Appreciate that. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Eleesa Howard Australian contemporary mixed media visual artist S1 Ep25 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts In this final regular weekly episode for 2021 and Season 1, my guest is Eleesa Howard. Eleesa is a contemporary artist from the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria and a mum of 3. She works with multiple mediums including acrylics, oil pastels and collage, and is not afraid to experiment with any materials on hand. Eleesa approaches her expressionist style in an intuitive way, using her painting and collages as a way of letting go, of not over-thinking life and instead focusing on the positive and joyous in every day. Her works are reflective, exploring relationships, emotions, and connections to her family, community, and environment. Eleesa is currently focusing on exploring sentimental childhood memories, motherhood and the everyday moments. Today we chat about being clear and communicating your art making needs, using art to move through challenging transitions in life, drawing inspiration from strong female figures in her life and the joys of raising teenagers. Eleesa website / instagram View Eleesa’s latest series Memories Are Made Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their heart. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for tuning in. In this final regular weekly episode for 2021 and Season One, my guest is Elisa Howard Elisa is a contemporary artist from the Mornington Peninsula in Victoria, and a mom of three. She works with multiple mediums including acrylics, oil, pastels and collage and is not afraid to experiment with any materials she has on hand. Elisa approaches her expressionist style in an intuitive way, using her painting and collages as a way of letting go of not overthinking life, and instead focusing on the positive and joyous in every day. Her works are reflective, exploring relationships, emotions and connections to her family, community and environment. Elisa is currently focusing on exploring sentimental childhood memories, motherhood, and the everyday moments. Today, we chat about being clear and communicating your art making needs using art to move through challenging transitions in life, drawing inspiration from strong female figures, and the joys of raising teenagers. Thank you so much for coming on today, Alisa. It's a real pleasure to meet you. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. You're a visual artist. Tell us about the mediums that you work in and the sort of style that you do. Yeah, so I'm an abstract artists, I guess sort of more expressionism might say, I work with a bit of mixed media. So I use mostly acrylic paints, and collage oil pastels, pretty much have a go with anything that is sort of laying around really. And it seems to evolve. And chop, chop and change as you go along. So yeah, that sounds like a bit of fun, actually. It's like the sort of open to any sort of anything. I said, I think if I stick with one thing all the time, I sort of start overworking it and then overthinking it. So it's good to have a few different things. So I don't like even at the moment, I'm doing some paperwork with collage on timber. But I've also got some paintings on the go as well. So just to just to mix it up. Yeah, that's cool. So how did you first get into painting and creating? Well, I like so many people as a creative kid. Always having a go with things. Drawing and you know, I remember being sort of I think Musclemania that for and draw. I was really into like Holly hobby and last in the prairie. imagining myself in what boots and frilly dresses. Yeah, a bit of a daydreamer. So and I remember drawing I had, I was drawing these profiles of these girls in bonnets and stuff. And yeah, I had friends asking me, Can you tell me mine occasionally? Well, so that was pretty cute. But you're pretty much high school, I guess where you're exposed to opportunities to have a go at different things. And different mediums and that sort of thing. My grandmother was quite always creative as well. So should there was always sort of that influence. From the beginning to Yeah, yeah. High School. Really? I guess. Yeah. And then from then you sort of did you go. Did you have a say a day job, but did you? How did you sort of progress once you left school? Did you go? Well, no, I didn't. I am. I ended up. I was really, I really loved photography. Actually. That's where I was sort of my spy doing art, but I love photography. And I sort of had a dream of being a photographer. Didn't really work how I ended up getting married very young, so about 20 and had my daughter, my first child at 23 as well. So just you know, you're busy working. You know, there's always things tinkering in the background, but nothing sort of serious. And then yeah, always sort of been. And then as I got I had kids always trying to sort of keep up with painting here and there. But then things get messy and you can't always do that. So no formal training, always just sort of trained myself to hurry. When was it? In 2018? I did do a Diploma of visual arts so when my youngest was heading into high school, it was a bit of a Oh, geez, okay, he's, this is my last one. What? Maybe it's time for me. And I was a bit lost. And so I ended up going to an open day at the local TAFE. And she's, and I just worked, I just instantly they walked into the rooms and like, this is it, I've gotta go, I've just got to do this. I've got to come here. So even though I'm still working a day job, I'm working three days and three days there, I was flat out, but I just made it happen. And I absolutely loved it. Especially like learning printmaking, and even the sculpture I had to go out and found that just really fascinating. So So that sort of kick started it back up again, really, you know, I've always done other things sewing, and I used to have market stalls and making quilts and things like that, to always have a creative outlet. Just not so much the visual art side until really then again, which was Yeah, so I took on a bit of a studio space and just dedicated time to it. And try not to feel guilty about it. Think Yeah, the age challenge for mom. Yeah, exactly. Yes. So tell us about your children. So you mentioning. Yeah. How many children do you have? I've got three children. So my oldest now, Bonnie, she's 25. She still lives at home. And then I've got my son, Finn, who's 22. And he just moved to Geelong and actually just during lockdown, like in June. So we haven't seen him for five months, which has been a bit hard. And then my youngest is Salman, and he's in New Year. 10. Next year, so yeah. And he's just about 15. Yeah, right. So we're sort of like this, you sort of used that, that creative outlet to sort of help you through a transition, I suppose, is sort of a change to the and how you looked at yourself? Yeah. I think especially my, when I had my daughter, I did stop work. And was really like a mom at home. And but I used to just go a little bit, you know, crazy. So I'd always have things on the go. Whether it was painting furniture, or you know, sewing outfits for her, just actually remember cuz she used to just cry so much. And always wanted movement, too. And so I actually remember rocking her with my right foot, like in the pram and then saw me with my left foot. By like, no kidding, I was like, I've got to get some stuff done. It sounds like you would have made a good drummer. I'm like, she was just a shocker. I didn't know how I even had any more kids after that. I'd been in the shower, and I had she'd be like in a baby rocker thing. And I have to have my foot out of the shower while showering just issues hard work. But yeah, always kept up those sort of things. You know, just I needed something. And I used to love being creative with the kids too. You know, I'd always have as I got older craft tables and try to get kind of man to which I really enjoy. Yeah. So any of them sort of continued with any sort of, like art practice or not? Well, the only one really is my middle one. He's quite creative. He's a musician. So he loves his music. He's also a chef. And he also just likes at the moment he's actually been dabbling in some painting himself so I'm keen to get over then they can have a see what he's been doing. Yeah. My daughter did do art at school. And I hope that she sort of gets back to that as she gets older maybe Yeah, but yet at the moment, no, no, yeah, my youngest sporting so completely different. The kids are also different Your collection that was called sentimental. Yeah, I was just really taken by that. Yeah, the in particular was to that I really was drawn to soft kisses. And then it was what was it just called T? Is that right? Yes, that's right. Yeah. They were actually. They're actually about my husband. Yeah, I think during lockdown last year, I was in Victoria. And, you know, we've been through quite a bit of lockdown. And last year, we were all at home a lot. And we were trying to sort of survive, we're having our own little sort of stations where we could kind of go off to, to keep everyone on saying. And he always has actually, for a very long time, as always made me a cup of tea. And I just just was really appreciating it. You know, you take these things for granted, but I did really, I just thought, you know what, I'm really lucky to have someone that does that. And just those little morning kisses. So I think I was just in that zone of feeling quite sentimental about that. Yeah, so they came out in those paintings. Yeah. So was the whole was the rest of the collection. Yeah, it was there any about your children in there? Yeah, absolutely. So my son, Solomon, he was going, we were having a pretty hard time with him just at that particular age 14 is not fun for boys, or girls. Not all of them. He was really, he's my feisty one. He was pushing pushing buttons. And I was just like, Oh, my baby's going. And I'm finding it really hard. And so I had two paintings, which was almost called Let me go. And that was him. Basically saying to me, let me go. And the other one, which I've completely forgotten what it was called now, Archie's there's another one or two very similar. And they were both about him about pushing buttons and the push and pull. Oh, that was cool. Push and Pull. And yeah, that push and pull of wanting to him pushing us away, pulling, you know, all that sort of thing and kind of find that balance of teenagers and yeah, letting them grow into their own person. But yeah, it can be hard letting letting go too. So yeah, that was definitely about that. Yeah. I really, really enjoyed them, though. Just see. Yeah. And that's the thing like your style. Abstract. What was it? What was it? Yeah, expression is, um, I guess. I'm not an art person at all my backgrounds music, so I don't Yeah, things but it's amazing that you can, you can express how you feel, just through the strokes. Like it's not an actual depiction, you know what I mean? I just found that really amazing. I was really wrapped how they resonated with people, and even my sister who's in South Australia. And I hadn't told her anything sort of about the series was about and she's, she's in the she's got the little ones at the moment. She's got like a four year old two year old. And she's one of the pictures came up on Instagram. And she said, I just really love that it reminds me of something to do with motherhood, she said, and I said, Oh, that's amazing, because it's exactly what it's about. So that was really? Yeah, that really? Yeah, felt really great about that, that someone else could see that. Yeah, that is Oh, isn't it? Oh, it was really cool. I was talking to an artist over the weekend recording. And her style was very nice now, but it's basically like, oh, hang on, I've got to find it, or find money. Because I just didn't I just find it incredible that all the different styles that you can do, it's just me, she surrealism and symbolism. So incredible, like, you can basically look at it. And like decipher, it's a story, you know what I mean? Like, there's just, it's, it's incredible. And then oh, like for because I didn't really do art at school because I had this idea in my head that art had to be. I guess what I realized now is fine art. I suppose that's what I thought that had to fit in. So I thought, well, I can't do that. So I'm not going to do it, you know? And it's now it's like, all these different things you can do. It's just amazing. I love it. Yeah. We're often told that at school, you know, like if you can't You know, draw correctly or that sort of thing. Like, I'm not the greatest of drawers at all, you know, but I just love what I do. And, you know, don't have a big background and all that sort of real fine art sort of thing. But um, but I think that doesn't matter. Like you just go for it. If you feel passionate about it, that's the main thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's amazing the things that I'm learning doing. You were saying about how the works, you sent a manual series that are some that were inspired by Solomon. Does he know you that like, and how does he feel? He that he knew that actually, afterwards, when I showed them, show them to him. And he's the most he's really not sentimental. It's very Yeah, he's my least empathetic kind of one. And he's just kind of like, Oh, really? Oh, okay. And that's probably very, yeah, maybe later, he might sort of that might just touch him. And I know, he was sort of touch but he's not want to be gushy. And yeah. He was just like, Oh, Mom. Yeah, so yeah. Not not the biggest sort of reactions on AI, but that's the thing. I've got a 13 year old. So we're sort of into that territory. And, yeah, yeah, it's just the poor kids. It's like the hormones ago now. Adjusting because here in South Australia, next year is different. But this year was the last year that year eight was the first year of high school. Next year, they're going to take them for me seven. So he's just started high school this year, and just the whole transition of that entire different world and how you move school, and it's like, it's not such a big jump. And I think that's why I'm being so nervous about him going into high school, just because I just know how much change there is. And just how much they're exposed to. You've tried to sort of keep them a little bit sort of contained. And yeah, that's it. Yeah. All of a sudden, there's just this whole world to just, you know, get them through it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's sort of it's funny, like, when, when I had them as babies, it's like you, you think this is going to be the hardest part. But then when they grow up? And I remember people saying that to me, you know, just make the most of it. And, you know, because it goes so fast. And then there's a teenage years, and I'm just thinking, oh, yeah, but I, you know, I do can't wait until they can do this and can't wait until they can do that. And then now I'm the person saying, Make the most of it goes really fast. I mean, yeah, yeah. And I wish I you know, like everyone, you do wish that you sort of could go back and sort of just really slow down. Yeah, and because, especially with my older two, I was young, I was young, I had all the energy, but I didn't have the patience as much. And then with Solomon, there was an eight year gap between the middle one and him. And I was quite, I was a lot more relaxed with him and a lot more patient, but he just wanted to grow up. And, you know, I was trying to keep him back. Like he started walking at nine months. I'm like, no, no, no, I was ready to go, ready to go. And of course, having the older siblings, he was just wanting to always be ahead. And I was, you know, so there. can't do much about that. But yeah, I did try to be a lot more relaxed and appreciating it. Definitely, especially those early months of newborn and I just tried to go really slow and enjoy it so you touched on briefly, we sort of talked about the identity shift and how you used your art to sort of work through that and I guess you've you've used it in other times, like you're talking about you your series that you've done, the new the push and the pull and letting go has it been really sort of integral to you to work through it in that way like that's been your outlet and your I don't want to say coping mechanism but you know, part of the tools that you've used to help you through different I think so and also I might own mother as well. And my own parents, I think dealing. My actually my, my new series I'm working on is sort of more about childhood as well. But you know, it's my children, I guess reminding me about things that happened to me in some way. Yeah, so I had a little bit of a, an up and down childhood, you know, parents divorcing early and to and fro and all that sort of thing. And yeah, I think it is, it is definitely a coping mechanism, I think is, again, cliche. People go, oh, when you get older, you really, when you think all the things from the past that you've pushed aside, just come out, like, whatever. I really do, and it sucks. Yeah. And I think is, as your kids get older or dear, it just reminds you of things. And maybe it's a way of holding on to them, as well. I'm not sure it's a bit confusing, really. But yeah, at the moment, it is sort of, I guess, just remembering how things were, and as a child, but also maybe appreciating how much how much what my parents would have gone through as well. So just relating it all back to that as well. So yeah, that's really interesting. Is it time you sort of you give your parents a bit of a bad rap, don't you? Sort of Yeah. And then when you experience it yourself, you sort of get ah, I can, okay. Like I had, like my stepmother. She was only in her mid 20s. And all of a sudden, she just had a one year old. And then she had three older kids like my dad. Yeah. And, you know, she just kind of the best way she could, she was quite firm, and strict, and, but that's probably the only way she could have could have done it. But I also learned so much from her. She's really industrious, and she's creative as well. We'll craft broidery, things like that. So always surrounded by she had a huge influence Actually, me on my life. This is a really industrious woman. My mother, my mother has bipolar. So she just growing up with that around to she didn't really ever get to do never worked. Because she was always really struggling. So I never had that sort of other influences. Um, woman that was working and doing things and juggling children all the time. Yeah. Huge impact on me. So yeah, so she really did. I don't think that was the question you asked. Oh, I can't really we just go off in our directions. So very, Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Other words, the was a big influence also on me. Just she was always another she was in. She didn't work. When she was younger, she did. She was a nurse and all sorts of things. But she was always creative, too. She She painted. So played the piano, cooking that certain too. So yeah, always that sort of always influenced on me as well. I wonder if women in that era would have felt the same sort of guilt that we feel now? Like, yeah, been a thing for them at all. Or it was just my grandmother's that era? Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. I think because it was just the norm. You know, the mother stayed home. And that's just the norm. Yeah. Back then. Maybe they actually maybe it was the reverse. Maybe it was almost like if they were working. They felt the guilt of going to work. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Honestly, it's something that it's just a whole huge big thing. Like the guilt. It's just and I feel like, I don't know. I mean, everyone experiences it differently, or experiences or doesn't experience it, you know, and that's, it's so interesting. Like, no, I would I agree, man. The guilt I'm such an overthinking anyway, that I constantly analyzing everything. And motherhood and how you bring up your children. Am I doing it right the right way? And my Should I've done this and I try not to look back too much. Because really, you've got no control over that. But you just, you got to just try and do the best that you can in with what you've got, basically. But yeah, the mother guilt of putting yourself you know, ahead of you children sometimes. I've definitely learned over time not to have that quite so much. I think as the kids were younger I did. But especially that like when my youngest son in high school, I was like, No, you know what, I'm, I'm okay, I deserve to have some allocated time. And to actually let the whole family know, right, well, this is actually something that's really important to me, and I'm going to make this happen. And it was actually really nice to see the support that they gave me too. Right? Yeah, no, really, even my, my middle boyfriend, he would say he was actually said to me, I'm, I mean, really inspiring me with the work that you're doing. And, you know, that's the biggest compliment ever. And my husband's really supportive as well just, you know, constantly telling me that he's proud of me, which is really lovely. That definitely helps with not feeling guilty. Compliments. Yeah. But um, you know, especially like, I work as well. So you are juggling quite a few things. My studio is now home, which during lockdown that happened, which was really good, because I did that guilted me leaving the house. Because sometimes my son would call up my youngest and go, Oh, Mom, where are you? Have you got any food for this? And this and I'll have, can you can you give me this to eat? And you know, just you know, it was always about food? Um, yeah, so I'm at home now, which is lovely, because he can just come in coming in. And while I'm here, I can have a chip, especially during lockdown when we're all at home again. That was really important. I felt quite good doing that. Yeah, yes. That works. That's been working really? Well. Yeah, that's great. It's interesting. You say like, when you communicated that, this is what you're gonna do? It was like everyone went, Oh, good. Okay. You know, everyone's really clear on what's happening. Like you said, they can support you. I think there's a lot to be said for that, like actually articulating what you need. This is, this is what I'm going to be doing. Yeah, cuz I don't know that we do that enough. Probably years ago, I could have done it. Yeah. And I probably would have been still fine. But maybe it's just my, as a mom thinking, I shouldn't look and allow myself to or they should just know what's going on in my mind. Like, hello. What really, you know, see, I'm trying to do all these things. Doesn't Yeah. Doesn't make sense to you that that's what I want to keep doing instead of actually, like you said, articulating it and actually saying it out loud. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a real a real woman thing. I think, I don't think anyone would ever be afraid to just come in and say, right, this is what I'm doing. Okay. I think we're concerned about other people, because we're, you know, we're looking at for the ones in our care, are they going to be okay, you know, maybe worried about offending people or, you know, our own feelings of guilt. I shouldn't be doing this, you know, just like, just take the bull by the horns and go, right, this one I'm gonna do just set it out. Exactly. Exactly. So you know, no, that's absolutely the way to go. I think. Yeah, the needs to be flexible, you know? And be available, like, especially with a teenager. Yeah, just just being available. Not even that even like my 25 year old daughter was having a moment the other day, and she just said, you know, drop things and be ready to have a chat and that sort of thing, too. So, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, you're always gonna be sort of juggling that role. You you might be doing your art or your whatever your interest. Is this at a moment's notice. quickly swap perhaps over and off you go in Monroe. It is yeah, it is. And that can be quite exhausting. It's exhausting doing that, you know, like you do. Yeah, I think you have to allow yourself rest. I think that's an important part of even the art practice. I've sort of learned that in the last year really only the last year of saying, Okay, I'm not going to feel guilty about even just resting and just thinking about At my art or just take taking some time away from it even just to refresh, refresh your brain. Yeah, that's, that's really true, isn't it? Because it would be like in any sort of creative pursuit? You're not. You're not always, you know, in that space all the time that you just, you know, it goes in, in waves, I suppose. And to recognize that and go, Okay. I'm just gonna step away for a bit. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's necessary. Yeah, for sure. So you were talking about the series that you're working on at the moment? Is that what I can see behind you? Is that the little? Yeah. Yeah. So they're all on, like, recycled upcycle bits of timber. Yeah. And this is paper. So I've done some acrylic on paper. And then I've actually added collage, and I've got all these are crayons, actually, and pasta pens. So it's all about I sort of had this. I kept thinking about all these images of sort of old buildings and the feeling of the heat in the Adelaide Hills, because that's where I grew up. We lived on a property and my my stepmother was growing lavender and all sorts of things. And we had cows and we were always sort of out and about. We made mud bricks. So lots of lots of things that you were always using your hands. So the house was all hand built. I didn't do a great deal, because I was pretty lazy. And I hated the heat. So we're always doing this stuff. And I was always really hot and but they just kept doing it. And I really, you know, looking back I saw appreciate even being whatever I was involved in, but I do know that I was constantly come on Elisa sitting around and I was just like, Oh, but I even though at the time, I didn't appreciate it. I look back now and just think, Wow, that was such a fantastic experience. I know it was a lot of hard work, having property and all the things that they did. But it's really influenced me. We had just just sheds and anything like that I've just been really attracted to we would go on family holidays, and we'd stay and we'd go to the country and stay in old like I remember saying this massive old house and Bera you know, but my fascination was the actual building. And so I've just sort of been working through what all that means. And I think it is the stability of those structures and the longevity of them. Things that are built with your hands and how you know how meaningful that is. It lasts a lifetime. And I think I had a lot of sort of up and down in my childhood. So there was a bit of to and fro with my mother back and forth with my dad and I actually lived my grandparents for a year when I was about nine. So I think all these things around me that I absorbed is, is which is what made me feel grounded. And it's just come back up again. And so that's sort of what I'm working on at the moment is just how that's all influenced me, like all the structures and even the summer heat and the gun trees. And yeah, all these memories. I've just been looking through old photographs and just working through that. So yeah, yeah. So even though I, as a child, I feel a bit unsettled. They're the things I've gravitated to. So yeah, I want to try. I want to try and make sure it's a positive way of remembering things even though there was other things going on in the background that might have been negative or hard. As a child. I'm just trying to find those little strengths of positivity. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes perfect sense. When you were just talking about that. It reminded me I'm not sure if you're into or heard of the chakras, like the chakras of the Oh my son's really into that my my finger He's just a hippie. He loves all that stuff. Yeah, he's telling he's been telling me a bit about that. So yeah, yeah, cuz when you were saying about that you needed to feel grounded. The things that you're talking about doing things with your hands, and like, the earth, and heat are all related to the base chakra, which is basically the one that keeps you grounded. That solid and all this other stuff might be going on. Yeah, and it's this, this core, this, it's basically your, it's in your, like, right down in your tailbone. So it's like, if you're seated, it's the part of your body. That's, that's touching the earth. And it just seemed to I just made that connection, as you were saying. Fascinating. Yeah. That's amazing. I have to look into that a bit more, actually. Yeah, I think it's that going into your own little bubble. Maybe that's even why I loved it as a kid, you sort of looking at everything else. And you're in your own little world. I mean, I used to even if my bedroom was my sanctuary, you know, as sort of that 12 1314. And I'd be constantly like, I painted and I'd be like, setting it all up in different ways all the time. And at one point, we lived in this little house, and I had to share a bedroom with my sister. And we're quite different bit of an age gap. And anyway, I was desperate for my own space. And we had this little hallway, like a little entryway that we never used, we would always go the back door. So I decided that I was going to set myself up in this entryway. Yes, I was so desperate for my own space. And literally, I could fit a chest of drawers. I had a hook for my school uniform, and I had a bed I posted around and that's where I slept. I don't even know how long I slept there for I think eventually they got a caravan and I slipped in the caravan. I asked permission I think I just did it. I was just so yeah, so definitely having my own space and I'd sit in there and I do whatever, you know, beading even you know necklaces and all I think I was into that at that time and yeah, so definitely, yeah, yeah, going into your own space Yeah. I remember helping my dad, Bertha lamb, you know, things like that we, you know, had animals and yeah, now I'd be like freaked out by that. But I'm really thankful for those experiences, because some are in my own kids haven't experienced things like that. So we're pretty, pretty lucky. Really? Yeah. Let's see, it's all about perspective. Yeah, yeah, just the way that you look at things. You could you could say it as negatives, but you've chosen to look at them as positives. That's yeah. And I think it is all coming out like because my kids are older. And what my youngest is. Yeah, just getting to that towards that end of high school heading towards their family a few more years left. So yeah, makes you just reassess things and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that's it isn't it? It's like the these these particular moments that adopted throughout your life we have take stock and you know, recess and yeah. Do you think you stay at keeping your studio in your home? Or I actually think I just be really nice, like, even have an evening I can just go in there whereas I wasn't taking advantage of going have an evening where I was. And I'm quite a homey person. So I do really enjoy that. Yeah, so I think it'll just make me let me use the time a bit more wisely. In your face. So you know, if you've got it, all of a sudden, you just want to come in and quickly do something you can and then got blown working on cooking. I can go in and do something. And that's, that's perfect. That's how I've always done it. I don't even know what else you know, like that is how I've always done it. It's always in between life. Yeah. Yeah. The project that you're working on at the moment, is that do you have like a end goal? You're going to exhibition? Next year? Yeah. Is it gonna be going? This one might be I haven't got anything go. It's just a little series that I just thought I'd launch all together. Okay, I just have to find a graphic. Basically, it's finished. So just that next step, and then putting it on website. And that's, that's the part it's boring. But yeah, it is. And it's called memories are made. So it's basically they're made in your mind, but they're also made with your hands. Yeah. So hopefully, yeah, in the next week, maybe I can get my act together. Though, there'll be up so yeah. And it's something I haven't done before. I've got lots of little pieces on blocks of wood. And yeah, so we'll just see, I've really enjoyed doing it. So we'll see how it all goes. I'm thinking you're probably having an open studio in a couple of weeks. So that probably pushed to finish it off. And yeah, always good to have a bit of a goal. But yeah, look next to you. Maybe I might probably like to apply to a couple of different galleries and just see, see what happens there. But yeah, I try not to think too far ahead. Otherwise, I get a bit overwhelmed. And that stops the stops the making. Yeah, so that's the plan so far. Sounds good. Yeah, I responded quite well, to the materials, I guess, too. But this will just happen because we had some all these off cuts of timber and things and our families upcycle timber, and I was like, Oh, that will really look cool with this and just just having a go. Yeah, yeah. Other ideas I've been making. I made some paper mache bowls as well, a while ago, which I again, I'd like to sort of experiment with too. So too many ideas. There are the I love all these podcasts. And it's been fantastic. Listening to two other moms and how they all do it. And it's really, really good. So Oh, thank you for coming on. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much, Alison. Thanks so much for listening today. We'll be taking a well earned rest over the festive season and be back early in the new year. Have a great Christmas if you celebrate it, and we'll see you in 2022

Jenn Book Haselswerdt US educator, playwright + dramaturgist S4Ep101 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week on the podcast is Jenn Book Haselswerdt, a multi passionate creative and mum of 2 from Missouri USA. Jen is an Arts integration teacher, playwright and dramaturgist , but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating, from pottery to knitting and baking. Jenn was first drawn to the theatre through 'Annie' the musical. She was a professional through College, had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she wanted to teach and write in the theatre. Jenn holds an Undergraduate Degree in Theatre, and a Masters Degree in Theatre, History and Criticism. She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of the art pieces. **Jenn's episode contains mentions of anxiety and depression** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a Mum podcast where I, Alison Newman, a singer, songwriter and Aussie mum of two, 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:19,000 enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered while trying to be a mum and continue to create. 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:28,000 You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work's been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms 4 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,000 and we also strain to territories such as the patriarchy, feminism and capitalism. 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:42,000 You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch 6 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:47,000 and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. 7 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:55,000 I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast but if at any time you're concerned about your mental health 8 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:02,000 I urge you to talk to those around you, reach out to health professionals or seek out resources online. 9 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,000 I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, alisonnewman.net slash podcast. 10 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:18,000 The Art of Being a Mum would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on as being the Boanduk people. 11 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:30,000 I'm working on land that was never seeded. 12 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Hello and welcome to another edition of the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me from wherever you are in the world. 13 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:43,000 It is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Jen Book-Hasselswert. 14 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Jen is a multi-passionate creative and a mum of two from Baltimore in the USA. 15 00:01:48,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Jen is an arts integration teacher, a playwright and a dramaturgist but also enjoys doing all kinds of creating from pottery to knitting and baking. 16 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Jen was first drawn to the theatre through the musical Annie. 17 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:15,000 She was an actor through college and had a short time as a professional actor but then realised that she actually wanted to teach and write in the theatre instead. 18 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Jen holds an undergraduate degree in the theatre and a masters degree in theatre, history and criticism. 19 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:30,000 She works with companies on new play development, reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays. 20 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,000 She also works with a gallery to teach about the history of various art pieces. 21 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:41,000 Please be aware today's episode contains brief mentions of anxiety and depression. 22 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:56,000 I hope you enjoy episode number 101. Thanks again for tuning in. 23 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Thank you so much, Jen. It's such a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you for coming on. 24 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,000 Thanks for having me. 25 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:09,000 Such a pleasure. And we were just chatting before we hit record that I'm in your future right now. 26 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:15,000 It's Saturday at 1pm in Australia and what time did you say it was over there? 27 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,000 It is Friday night at 10.30pm. 28 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:23,000 There you go. Well, we're still here. The future is still guffing. 29 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000 It's so bizarre to think like that. 30 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:34,000 I always love on New Year's Eve when, because we're one of the first, apart from Auckland, Sydney is one of the main first ones to go. 31 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:40,000 And I love just sitting there through the day and just watching all the other countries go through their big fireworks. 32 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:48,000 And it feels so weird when you're sitting in bright sunshine on a really hot day and you're watching people in the snow in the dark. 33 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,000 It is so cool. I love it. 34 00:03:50,000 --> 00:04:05,000 Well, I have to tell you, my son is 12 years old and he is really excited that I'm talking to someone in Australia right now because a video game that he was really looking forward to came out today. 35 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:11,000 And all the YouTubers who he knows have gone to Australia so that they could get the video game first. 36 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,000 Oh, wow. 37 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,000 And record all of their YouTube. 38 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Yeah, like reactions and what game is that? Do you know what it's called? 39 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,000 It is Tears of the Kingdom. 40 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,000 Yeah, right. 41 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,000 It is the new Zelda game. 42 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Oh, yes, yes. I know the one. 43 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,000 Yeah, yes. That is a very popular. That's been going for a long time too, hasn't it, Zelda? 44 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:45,000 I mean, yeah, I'm I'm 43. And like I remember playing a Zelda game back on 8-bit Nintendo back in the early 90s. 45 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Yeah, yeah. Good old Zelda. She's still going. Good on her. 46 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,000 So what part of America are you in, Jane? 47 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:05,000 I am in Missouri, which is in kind of like the middle of the country. 48 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:15,000 Kind of fraught right now. But I'm from Baltimore, which is in Maryland close to the East Coast. 49 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,000 Oh, yes. 50 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 Yeah, I was from the Atlantic Ocean. 51 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,000 You would be amazed the amount of people I've had on here from Maryland. 52 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:31,000 I can't say it right. I say Maryland. Yeah, I reckon I've had three, three episodes with people from like Baltimore or near Baltimore. 53 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000 Yeah, there's something going on in that part of the world that's just coming to me. 54 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:42,000 We embrace kitsch in a way in Baltimore that like no no other place does. 55 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,000 And so I think we kind of breed arts loving people. 56 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Yeah, I love that. It's so cool. 57 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Yeah, and I'm starting to get better with my geography of America. 58 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:00,000 So yeah, I appreciate when you say you're sort of in the middle. That's my mental thing. 59 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000 Yep. Yep. 60 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:06,000 So my parents live in Maryland. My brother lives in Los Angeles, California. 61 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:16,000 And so I'm about 1500 miles from each. From each of them. Yeah. Yeah. That's a beautiful visual. That makes sense. Yes. 62 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:23,000 But I still forget which side is Seattle on the West Coast. It is. Yeah. 63 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Sometimes I get confused because New York's on the East Coast, isn't it? 64 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Yes. That's cool. 65 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:33,000 And Seattle's in Washington State and Washington, D.C. is on the East. 66 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,000 How did you manage that? 67 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:43,000 There are too many, you know, wanting to name things after the same exact people. 68 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:48,000 Why there, you know, I'm in Columbia, Missouri, and there's Colombias all over the place. 69 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,000 Everywhere. Yeah. Yep. Yep. 70 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:57,000 Oh, there you go. It's interesting. I love all these things I get to learn. It's all fun. 71 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,000 Actually, when I was a kid, I used to play this game. It was called Where in the World is Carmen San Diego. 72 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And that was one of my favorite games. Yes. And I used to love like I liked that one more, the original more than the time travel one. 73 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:15,000 It was something I did like the time travel. But yeah, that just made me realize all these amazing places in the world. 74 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:21,000 And I think that was the start of me being fascinated with I had to get pen pals so I could talk to people. 75 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,000 And then my fascination with the weather, what it's like in other places like I don't know. 76 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:30,000 It's built from that that game. It's opening my eyes to it. Yeah. 77 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:36,000 It's the only way I know nation's capitals. Yes. Yeah. That's so true, isn't it? 78 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Hey, on weather, what what's it like there at the moment? What's your right now? It is humid and muggy. 79 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:53,000 Yeah, it is. We had a really cold snap and very late cold snap with the garden. 80 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,000 Gardens kind of froze up and none of the plants knew what to do. Yeah. 81 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:05,000 But now it's 85 degrees and very, very humid. I'm just going to work that into my conversion. 82 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:11,000 Yeah, I'm still I'm still I don't have a match. Oh, yeah, that's nice. 83 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,000 Yeah, that's warm. Yeah. But muggies. Yeah. Yeah. Make it a bit uncomfortable. 84 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:22,000 No, not muggy. Yeah. There we go. All right. Enough of my random questions. 85 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:36,000 I have nothing to do with anything. I just indulge myself. I love it. Oh, dear. 86 00:08:52,000 --> 00:09:02,000 So you're obviously a mother, Jen. And I love on your your Instagram how you say you like like the coziness of creating things that are cozy. 87 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:08,000 And so you do all sorts of different things. So, yeah, share with us what you like to create. 88 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Sure. So I stole the phrase from this influencer named Deanna Joy, which is multi-passionate creative, 89 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:25,000 which I think sounds so much better than dilettante. So I my first love is Twitter. 90 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:33,000 But when we're talking about the the creating I do with my hands, I love baking. 91 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:39,000 I love pottery. I love quilting and other sewing. 92 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:46,000 And kind of all those things that make you feel warm and cozy. Yeah. Now, I'm sorry, I cut you off. 93 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:53,000 What did you say your first love was? Well, my first love was theater and still is. Oh, magnificent. 94 00:09:53,000 --> 00:10:02,000 Oh, we're going to get on very well. So, yeah. So straight theater or musical theater? 95 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:15,000 Mostly straight because my voice was never well, my voice is OK, but my dance skills were never at a place where I could. 96 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Nine years of ballet didn't do anything for me. Yeah. 97 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:32,000 But yeah, so straight theater. I actually have my undergraduate degree in theater and master's degree in theater history and criticism. 98 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:44,000 And I work with companies on new play development and reading scripts and doing research into the histories behind plays and things like that, which is 99 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:54,000 really the most nerdy fun you can possibly have. But that just sounds so fascinating, like getting to delve into stuff in such a deep level. 100 00:10:54,000 --> 00:11:03,000 And you said criticism. So that means you can be like a proper critic and give like proper critiques on plays and things. 101 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Yeah. Yeah. And my sort of my sort of outlook on things, which informs the way I teach to is, you know, saying I like or I don't like really doesn't help anyone in their creation of theater and their creation of whatever. 102 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:35,000 I also work with a gallery in town to do similar work with some of their gallery shows teaching about the history of the art pieces. 103 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:53,000 But to ask questions about the creation and ask questions that might lead to more questions that might lead to playing with what answers might be is just such a fun collaborative way to work that playwriting doesn't have to be 104 00:11:53,000 --> 00:12:01,000 a solo endeavor. And, you know, you can it's called a play for a reason. It should be fun. 105 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:37,000 This particular guy in Australia, his name's Peter Gers and he's very, I don't know, well known in South Australia, not probably the rest of Australia and certainly not internationally, but he's a theater critic. 106 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:56,000 And over the years, he's he's he's made it. He has a radio show and he used to be an actor. And he basically I remember him saying once about critiquing theater, that there was absolutely no point in belittling people or saying, you know, they did a terrible job. 107 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:12,000 You know, it's all about recognizing the amount of effort they've gone to, what their intention was behind the piece. Maybe the delivery wasn't, you know, quite what they had hoped or, you know, beyond the level of what he might have expected or whatever. 108 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:22,000 But there's no, there's absolutely no point in just bashing people, you know, when they're having a go. Is that something you could sort of relate to? 109 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:27,000 Absolutely. I think I was taking a professional development one time. 110 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:45,000 And there was an article that we read about the power of positivity in working with something like this with with art criticism, and I absolutely burst into tears in the middle of class, because I had always been called, I don't know if you do you know the movie 111 00:13:45,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Pollyanna? Oh yes. Kaylee Mills, like the 60s or 70s. So I'd always been called a Pollyanna because I am very positive about things. And it had never, you know, being a teenager in the 90s, when, you know, it was cool to be aloof and ironic. 112 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:20,000 Yeah, but being a positive person was really difficult and being positive about things, you know, people kind of looked at it as though you didn't have a critical bone. That to be critical meant to be nasty. 113 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:34,000 And, you know, darn it, I was 15 years old, I like the Spice Girls and I wanted to be able to like the Spice Girls. Yeah, yeah, you know, but I couldn't. 114 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:55,000 You know, reading this article about the power of positivity just struck such a chord with me that it should be about buoying up what's good about things and striving to make those things that aren't at that level, to that level, rather than bringing everything down. 115 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:09,000 Yes, yeah, that's a really good way of saying it, isn't it? It's like you're, I don't know what the word is, it's this constructive criticism, I guess. It's things that can help people to make changes or, you know, look at things in a different way. 116 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:21,000 It's not just a straight comment that's, you know, with no possibility for any further, anything. It's like, a statement that's not helpful at all. 117 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:37,000 I think like when we're talking about, you know, being, you know, so criticism doesn't have to be critical, right? So like, when I'm working with a playwright on developing a new script or a new piece of theater, you know, who cares what I like? 118 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:51,000 What I like isn't necessarily going to be the same thing that an artistic director is going to like, or that the lady in row six is going to like, or the man in row seven, they're all going to like different things. 119 00:15:51,000 --> 00:16:09,000 So what's the purpose of saying I like this or I don't like that? But what we can do is say, hey, I noticed that in Act One, your character says such and such, but that never comes back in Act Two. It seemed really important in Act One. 120 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:17,000 Was it important in Act One? And being able to ask those questions to help structure that piece. 121 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:26,000 And play, you know, I keep coming back to the word play. Play around with those answers and hopefully ask more questions. 122 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:41,000 You know, it's kind of like a, I guess, like, I mean, this is a person who knows nothing making this statement, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels to me like it's like a book editor kind of like you're looking at with eyes outside of who wrote it. 123 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:54,000 And you can pick up stuff like, like you said, like, is there a theme that seemed important then didn't get continued or something come up all of a sudden or where did that come from? Like, there's no background to this, whatever. 124 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,000 That's kind of, I guess, a layman's way of describing it. 125 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:12,000 For sure. So like, so the it's called like Dramaturge, which is the same as it's the German word for playwright. 126 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:34,000 And so, but we, I mean, I do write plays, but when I'm Dramaturging, that's not being the playwright. And so I kind of, so someone who practices metallurgy shapes metal into something beautiful. So someone who practices dramaturgy helps shape drama into something beautiful. 127 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000 There you go. 128 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 That's so cool. I love that. 129 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,000 I learned a new word today too. 130 00:17:43,000 --> 00:18:08,000 That's awesome. 131 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:16,000 Do you recall being a child and just like how you got into your love of theater? Where did that come from? 132 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:39,000 I, that's a great question. I remember going to, I remember whether it was watching the movie Annie or going to see a play, but I remember that it was Annie specifically and looking at the children on stage and going, I could do that. 133 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:46,000 And so I started going to theater camps when I was five. 134 00:18:46,000 --> 00:19:06,000 And, you know, just kind of being in plays and my theater camp that I grew up with was also at a swim club and did kind of sports stuff too because it's trying to be all things to all people. 135 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 And then John Waters movie was filmed there, speaking of Baltimore. 136 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 So that was super fun. 137 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:26,000 But, you know, they were very specific that we had all of us had to take music and dance and make the sets and the props for the play. 138 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,000 So kind of, kind of, you know, well rounded in that way. 139 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:48,000 And then I was in all the plays in middle school, which is sixth to eighth grade here. Yeah. And then in when I was going into ninth grade, a new school was opening up that was arts focused. 140 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:54,000 And so I went there. And so I've been a theater major since the time I was 13 years old. 141 00:19:54,000 --> 00:20:03,000 And John never told us that there was anything beyond you could be an actor or you could be a director. 142 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:13,000 I mean, I guess I knew in my head that you could make scenery and things like that. But really like when you were studying, you're either going to be an actor or a director. 143 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:29,000 And I was like, you know, with acting all the way through, you know, graduating from college. And then I was a professional actor for a hot minute. 144 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:49,000 And I had always wanted to do and what I've been saying since maybe second grade was I want to teach. I want to write. I want to do theater. And when I found dramaturgy and also teaching. 145 00:20:49,000 --> 00:21:09,000 I'm an arts integration teacher for my full time job. Those things. That's what it is. It's you know, dramaturgy is using teaching to fulfill the arts and arts and teaching arts integration is using the arts to fulfill education. 146 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:21,000 And so those things really. It's what I wanted to do since I was in second grade. Yeah. And it was like, it was just. 147 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,000 You just hadn't discovered that that was a thing yet. 148 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:45,000 And it was actually my roommate when I was 22. She was she told us that she was leaving to move to another state because she got literary management as dramaturgy internship at a theater out of state. 149 00:21:45,000 --> 00:22:01,000 And at the same time, one of my friends from high school got a gig on Broadway in the show Mamma Mia. Oh, wow. And I was jealous of my roommate, but wanted to congratulate my friend who was going to be an actress on Broadway. 150 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:09,000 Yeah. I thought, wait a minute. Yeah, perhaps I need to examine my life. Yeah. 151 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:25,000 There you go. Oh, how cool is that? Yeah. And that's the thing. Like I found in. I don't know this all these little worlds that you have no idea about. You know, like in talking to people just through this podcast, like discovering all these other things you can do. 152 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:42,000 If you know you want to be involved in art, you know, you don't. Sorry. There's not just, you know, the actual painter. There's all these other things you can be. And one of my favorite chats I've had on here was with an art historian, which I found so fascinating. 153 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:59,000 I was like, I feel like I've missed my calling because I love art. I don't make it very well, but I'm really fascinated in the history behind things and the symbolism and the imagery and how they, I don't know, express their ideas through different ways and all the different styles of art. 154 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:14,000 Yeah. So this is really cool that I'm learning something. I bet you there's no one listening that has ever heard the word dramaturgy before. So, hey, and if you have, send me a message on my Instagram and I'll give you a prize or something because this is cool. 155 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:40,000 Yeah. 156 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:59,000 I'm going completely off path now that I know this stuff. Whoa, that I love it. I love it. What are your like favorite plays or things that have influenced you the most like actors or themes or anything? Just share with me things that you love about theater. 157 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:15,000 Well, I always, I think about musicals. I always think about musicals first because they are musicals are what I don't know captures everything. I don't know. I love Sondheim. Stephen Sondheim's work. 158 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,000 Into the Woods is my favorite. 159 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:22,000 The first act of Sunday in the Park with George. 160 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,000 The second act is not my favorite. 161 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,000 The first act is great. 162 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:41,000 I think that there is something in the way that he works his lyrics and music together. 163 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:46,000 Being the person who who is able to do both. 164 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:57,000 And I think his command of rhythms are are amazing. I felt very 165 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:10,000 content is not the right word, vindicated I felt vindicated when I was listening to an interview with him and the interviewer asked, you know, how do you come up with your rhymes and he said I use a rhyming dictionary. 166 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,000 I was like oh me too. I felt I was so excited. 167 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,000 So he's, he's wonderful. 168 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000 His work is wonderful. 169 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Little Shop of Horrors is another favorite of mine, Howard Ashman and Alan Menken. 170 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:32,000 You know before they ever wrote the Little Mermaid. 171 00:25:32,000 --> 00:26:01,000 Their work adapting and when I write plays I do adaptations, mostly their work adapting just this weird little B horror movie into this amazing, kitschy work of musical theater is incredible and there's a moment in the movie where Rick Moranis, 172 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:21,000 he does a little riff, because he's you know very nerdy, the character, and he goes, I don't know, I don't know, and his voice just changes into this amazing passionate singer. 173 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:26,000 And being able to pull that out is is wild. 174 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:34,000 I am a big, I've always been a big fan of Wendy Wasserstein, who passed away. 175 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:49,000 Oh gosh, probably almost 20 years ago now but her work was one of the first, her, she and Carol Churchill I think were the first two sort of feminist playwrights that I had read. 176 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000 And so their work was really influential on me. 177 00:26:53,000 --> 00:27:14,000 And there's some fantastic stuff going on in small theaters. Nowadays I really wish that Broadway would go back to championing new works and not reviving the old ones I will die on the hill that Oklahoma is a subversive piece of theater. 178 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,000 It really is. 179 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:21,000 But we don't need to revive it every two minutes. 180 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:35,000 It's interesting you say that I had a conversation with, back in season two, Dr. Erica Ball, who writes contemporary classical music in the US. 181 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:49,000 And we were having this conversation about that, why people keep putting on all these shows of Mozart and Tchaikovsky and when there's all these people that are alive today, and a lot of women too, 182 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:56,000 and people of color that are writing new music and why aren't we listening to that and why aren't they being put on. 183 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:12,000 And, yeah, it was this sort of this push and pull between the audience that wants to hear something familiar, because I think they will enjoy themselves more if they know what they, you know, they know it and they feel familiar with it, or the audience that wants to feel challenged 184 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:23,000 and wants to be pushed out of their comfort zone and it's a real quandary. And I guess it probably is a similar thing because at the end of the day, these things have got to make money. 185 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Absolutely. 186 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:47,000 Yes, and there's this whole conversation about how like the older people have more of the money. And so if we want to make money, we have to do what the older people quotes. Yeah, what they want to see is what they're comfortable with but what we're forgetting is that younger 187 00:28:47,000 --> 00:29:06,000 people want to be part of these conversations they want to support the arts people who, you know, can't necessarily afford, you know, to, you know, wear a suit to an evening of $500 theater. 188 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:23,000 They, they also deserve the arts they also deserve to see themselves on stage, be exposed to these different worlds and so there's, you know, yes, the arts need to make money. 189 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:40,000 And we need to, you know, keep bringing in the people who are going to pay for the things, but also not forget that there's a new and diverse audience out there who also needs to see this work. 190 00:29:40,000 --> 00:30:07,000 And there's a theater company in town here that does incredibly avant garde fantastic works and I've worked with them with dramaturgy a few times, kicking myself that I wasn't able to work on their new play, which is up this weekend, but they do these 191 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:28,000 quite specific works, and, you know, both that theater and the community theaters in town and the other professional theaters in town, make things very accessible to a diversity of audiences which I think is a really wonderful thing about our local 192 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:44,000 community here that you know yes you can go and see ragtime and Susickle, and also an immersive Frankenstein, you know, really fantastic. 193 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Yeah, it's interesting isn't it's like the bigger things get the more mainstream they have to get to have an audience. 194 00:30:52,000 --> 00:31:20,000 And it is kind of disappointing. 195 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:28,000 So, thanks to the purpose of our discussion today, which I'm not apologizing at all for going off track and I'll probably do it again. 196 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,000 Thank you for having a grown up arts conversation with me. 197 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,000 I love it. I do love it. 198 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 Yeah, so how many kids have you got Jen. 199 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:49,000 I have to. I have Mickey who is 12 and Eloise who's 15 months. Oh, gorgeous. I love that name Eloise that is such a sweet little name. 200 00:31:49,000 --> 00:32:01,000 Oh, that's beautiful. So, two kids at completely different stages of their, of their growing up, how, how you finding that the gap and I'm asking that because I've got seven years between my two. 201 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:08,000 And at times it can be very challenging, but how do you sort of navigate that the differences I suppose the challenges of that. 202 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Yeah, we were very wishy washy for 10 years about whether or not we wanted to have another baby. And all of our friends were having pandemic baby so we thought let's have a pandemic baby and so we had a pandemic baby. 203 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:38,000 And, you know, we were really, you know, honestly nervous about how Mickey was going to handle, you know, not being an only child anymore after being an only child for 10 years. 204 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,000 And their relationship is so sweet. 205 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,000 She started giving real hugs, just a couple of weeks ago. 206 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:59,000 And she loves they they run at each other and he picks her up and she hugs him around the neck and it's, it's super sweet. 207 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:08,000 And I really like that you know there are things that you know that we do with Mickey that Eloise can't be involved with. 208 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:19,000 You know I took him to see wicked at a theater where two hours in either direction from the closest like big city. 209 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:27,000 So I took him to one of the big cities to see the tour of wicked, and she can't come. 210 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:38,000 Or, we're taking him on a behind the scenes tour of the zoo because he wants to, he wants to be a zookeeper. 211 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,000 And you have to be. 212 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:53,000 He is, we're specifically taking him behind the scenes of the reptile house. And you have to be over eight to come to go to the reptile house so there are these things that we only do with him. 213 00:33:53,000 --> 00:34:04,000 And I think that really helps, you know, strengthen that relationship, since, you know, a lot of attention has to be on her. 214 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:17,000 You know we can't do the same nighttime routine with Mickey anymore that we used to do because Eloise has an earlier bedtime and honestly, I fall asleep with her, a lot of the time. 215 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:24,000 And, but yeah, their, their relationship is really fantastic. I was just thinking the other day that when she graduates from high school. 216 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:29,000 I'm going to be 60, which is very old. 217 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:35,000 You know, it'll be fine. Yeah, I've done that actually maintain that. 218 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:48,000 Yeah, yeah, that's love. That's really nice. And when you talk about that thinking to the future. I remember one day I was sitting in the car waiting at school pickup, and I worked out how many more years I'll be sitting in the car at this spot for school. 219 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:55,000 I was like, Oh my god, like, it freaked me out for a second, but you don't think about that every day. 220 00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:08,000 Yeah, you just, you just get on with your life but yeah I think the saddest moment for me though like I'd never had sort of any, like, sort of regrets or anything about the age gap because it just literally it happened how it had to happen, you know, it couldn't have happened any 221 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:22,000 other way. And, but then when I realized they'll never actually go to school together. I thought, Oh, that's a shame because I really liked, you know, having my sister at school and, you know, just, I think the ease of the drop offs and the pickups you know, one location. 222 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:31,000 But I was like, Oh, and that was really the only time I sort of had a bit of a moment but apart from that. Yeah, but how did you feel. Oh sorry you gone. 223 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,000 It's interesting to I work at, at a small private arts based school. 224 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:58,000 And there's a preschool and I work at the elementary I used to work at the preschool. And Mickey was already in elementary school when I started working at this school so we've kept him in public school and he's really thriving in public school. 225 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:08,000 And, Eloise is already registered at the preschool for when she turns to. So for all it's 2024. 226 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:29,000 And it's just a very different, you know, kind of, kind of thing I know from being an extracurricular teacher of Mickey's he's taken some of my theater camps and I used to teach an artful yoga class where you, the kiddos do yoga and then they do an art project that gets 227 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,000 into the creative space. 228 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:39,000 And it's just it does not always work out for me to be Mickey's teacher. 229 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:55,000 And, you know, it might be completely different with Eloise that you know she might be able to be my student and so just kind of thinking about the differences between having a child in public school and having a child in private school. 230 00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,000 I mean I don't I don't know how she'll be, but you know, 231 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:08,000 Yeah, no, it's, and I've noticed the differences in how children are educated in the gap. 232 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:24,000 Like, I don't know just the things that Alex used to bring home the eldest about how he was taught to read and particular things around maths and then Digby the little one, it's like they use completely different jargon about talking about things and sometimes I'll 233 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:34,000 find myself saying a thing that Alex used to do like with these called chunk it up when you had a really big, really big word, and you break it into two and it did be looking at what are you talking about. 234 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:51,000 I'm like, Oh, sorry, you don't say that you say something else now. And just get just these all these little differences. It's like, it's been quite interesting because I have my backgrounds in early childhood education so I found it really interesting to see how, you know, these new, I guess new 235 00:37:51,000 --> 00:38:04,000 research has been done and things like that over the years about how you deliver your content or whatever and all the all the new technology that's around now which wasn't around when Alex was a little tucker. 236 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:14,000 Yeah, Mickey, Mickey asked the other day. He was like, Why do you keep changing my rules about how much screen time I'm allowed to have, like how much time on the switch and how much time on the iPad. 237 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:26,000 Because we don't know what we're doing. No one has ever had to do this before. Yeah, we have no idea. 238 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:45,000 I love that. Oh, I love that so much. Yeah, I'll try to figure it out. Yeah, yeah, we're the guinea pig generation when it comes to this. Oh my gosh, it's funny. 239 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:13,000 Talking about differences, I want to chat about when you when you had Mickey and your transition to becoming a mother, compared to when you had Eloise. 240 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:22,000 How, how did you go with your own identity, I guess and the adjustments in changing from Jen to somebody's mother. 241 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:33,000 Yeah, that's great. That's a great question. Um, when I had Mickey, it was you know it's 31. 242 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:39,000 And most of my friends hadn't yet had children. 243 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Being in the Washington DC area at that time people have children, very late. 244 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:56,000 So, I think I knew one couple who had a baby. And so kind of being like you said the guinea pigs. 245 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:02,000 At the time, and kind of having to figure this all out. 246 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:14,000 My parents were relatively close by about 45 minutes away at that time and my mom was one of Mickey's primary caregivers. While I was at work she came three days a week. 247 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:22,000 And he had sitters the other two days, or with my husband, and being able to have my mom there. 248 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:38,000 Being supportive and being really my role model of being a parent because I didn't have well because she's awesome but also because I didn't have any real peers to look at as role models. 249 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:44,000 And just kind of trying to figure it all out at that time. 250 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:53,000 Between when we had Mickey in the Washington DC area, and having Eloise here. 251 00:40:53,000 --> 00:41:03,000 You know we lived, we've kind of slowly gone halfway across the country we made a stop in Michigan which is the little mitten shaped. 252 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:15,000 Up by Canada. And so we made a stop there for two years, and then moved here. And within that 10 years in between Eloise and Mickey. 253 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,000 You know now that I'm in my 40s my husband's in his 40s now. 254 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:31,000 Most of our friends are finished having babies. Yeah. And so, you know, we don't feel like we're starting from scratch we don't feel like we're starting. 255 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:43,000 Not knowing anything and in fact, our friends are very thankful that we're helping them clean out their basements and garages and giving us all the things. 256 00:41:43,000 --> 00:42:02,000 But it feels. Even with all the changes you know there there are apps for everything now and, you know, having online communities now that didn't exist back in 2011. 257 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:13,000 Feels less like we're reinventing ourselves and more like yeah this is just how this is. 258 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,000 Yeah, that makes sense. 259 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:22,000 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I could kind of relate to that and the way you've heard that that kind of makes sense. 260 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:30,000 Yeah, because it's new, but it's not new in a way, you know, it's, yeah, it's familiar at the same time. 261 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:40,000 Did you have children. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, Mickey was sleeping in his own room at two months and sleeping through the night at four months. 262 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:48,000 Eloise moved out of our room at six months, and still isn't sleeping through the night. Yeah. 263 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:58,000 And never got the crib transfer and so we're using a floor bed with her instead of a crib and things like that. There are definitely new things to learn but it's not a complete reinvent. 264 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:09,000 Yeah, see that's interesting isn't it like my two are completely different, same sort of thing like, I know what you said then just, yeah, sounds very similar. 265 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:25,000 And it's like, you're getting to know the child, like you sort of you know the ups you know the, the physical, the caring role the routine, but it's getting to know this little person and that's something I found really actually quite exciting about having another child. 266 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:39,000 I love to putting it off for so long was that it's like, oh, I get to meet a new person and find out what they're like and what they like and what they don't like and all this sort of stuff. It was actually something I hadn't really thought of when I'm, when I, you know, the 267 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,000 overwhelm of having your first child. 268 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:52,000 It's just like, and you stop to think, yeah, when and being older to, did you find that like have physically being older yourself being older like I had digs. 269 00:43:52,000 --> 00:44:00,000 I was 29 I reckon I had him a few months before I turned 30 and digs. What's that seven years after that. 270 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:12,000 I just felt like so much more content in myself as a person, you know, especially moving quite close to 40s when I think that's the time when you literally decide you don't give a shit about anything. 271 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:32,000 Absolutely and feeling so much like, like I don't have to prove anything to anybody that I was when I was pregnant with Mickey, I was, I was the education program manager of a regional children's theater, and I was teaching theater classes, five days a week, 272 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:47,000 and I would still, you know, eight months pregnant squat down on the floor and things like this is what I do for my job and I'm with Eloise, I was at like six months I was like I can't walk up the hill to the playground anymore. 273 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,000 Get me a chair. 274 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,000 What else is going to happen that sorry. 275 00:44:53,000 --> 00:45:02,000 Yeah, just like, I'm going to ask for what I need and people are going to understand and that's going to be okay. Yeah, yes, that's okay. 276 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,000 Now go and you go. 277 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:09,000 Yeah, I think like a big thing for me though is that I wish. 278 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:27,000 I think this is this is always the case with people who have second children, third children, fourth children, whatever, I'm not going there. 279 00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:41,000 I'm not going to be the living part, but I wish that, you know, in between the time that I had Mickey and the time that I had Eloise, my understanding of early childhood education fine motor skills gross motor skills. 280 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,000 The arts. 281 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,000 How to provide experiences to children. 282 00:45:47,000 --> 00:46:02,000 And the physical location that we're in has changed so much that like now, you know we go on nature walks, and there wasn't that in. 283 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:19,000 That I knew of in Washington DC, or, you know, we, you know, have these, you know, tactile experiences and toys that, you know, are more open ended and things like that. 284 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:29,000 You know I know how to create things for Eloise that I know how to create for Mickey. And so I wish that he had been able to have those experiences as well. 285 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:50,000 Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that too. 286 00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:58,000 You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was a human. 287 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:04,000 Do you, I guess, this mom guilt thing it's a big one that I like to talk about. 288 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,000 What's your thoughts about that whole thing. 289 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:15,000 Oh it absolutely exists, at least for me, I can't speak for anybody else but so I'm Jewish. 290 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:21,000 And we have lots of guilt everywhere all the time. 291 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,000 generational trauma. 292 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:39,000 But I think it comes from so many different places that you just internalize it without meaning to. 293 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:45,000 I have my husband is incredibly supportive. 294 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:58,000 He's a wonderful dad, a wonderful partner, and I still feel bad telling him that I want to take a pottery class, because it's going to take me away from the family. 295 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:16,000 It is absolutely nothing that he has done or expressed or would do or express in fact when I tell him, hey, I really want to take this pottery class he goes, good. You should in that tone of voice. 296 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:23,000 But I feel guilty about taking that time away. 297 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:29,000 I was just talking about the positive influences of having online communities. 298 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:47,000 But there's absolutely negatives with that as well. It's, you know, I found some wonderful supportive communities but, you know, I still feel the need to say like, oh we watch such and such. 299 00:48:47,000 --> 00:49:01,000 We're not a no screen time family. Like I feel like we're not no screen time or, oh, Eloise had, oh she had a peanut M&M the other day. 300 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:10,000 And I watched her like a hawk. I mean like, yeah, it's like this caveat. Yeah. Yeah. 301 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:23,000 And so there are wonderful things about that online community and then just things that make you stop for a second, not that anyone is necessarily actually judging you. 302 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:40,000 Yeah. The assumption that someone will. Yeah, that culture that we've sort of become familiar with I suppose that that's what we should expect to happen when we share things like that. Yeah. 303 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:53,000 I found I've deliberately stopped following people that make me feel challenged like that. I feel like, oh, if such and such read this or somebody saw this, I'd feel uncomfortable. So I've really done. 304 00:49:53,000 --> 00:50:07,000 I do it every now and then. Just go through the list and go, no, actually not feeling it. And try to try to have on my feed people that I don't know, are very similar to me in their values, I guess. 305 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:13,000 It's a good way to put it. Yeah. We just started with a new sitter. 306 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:25,000 And she has a reggio Emilia background. I have a reggio Emilia background. And, you know, that can go a couple of different ways. 307 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:42,000 You could be super crunchy, you know, all the super crunchy things. Or you could potentially be, I call myself crunchy but realistic. Yeah. I exist in this world and this is where I am. 308 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:56,000 So we were interviewing, I would say, oh, you know, we're not no screen time. And she goes, you watch Bluey? Oh yeah, we watch Bluey. Oh, love Bluey. Oh, love. 309 00:50:56,000 --> 00:51:15,000 Bluey is not as into it yet as I am. But oh, it's the best. These parents. Yes. I'll tell you, last night we were watching, we had Bluey on and everyone else left the room but me. And I just sat there and watched it. I watched it for about two hours by myself laughing my head off. 310 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:23,000 Can I ask though, do you guys get the humor, the Australian humor, like that, because Bandit can be quite colloquial. 311 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:36,000 I don't think we get all of it. But I think like what goes over our heads, just like we don't know. You don't know that you don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to be a chilly healer when I grow up. 312 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,000 You know. She's awesome. Good old chilly. 313 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:54,000 I love the stickers in her car and like it's just feels very real. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that her car is so messy. The messy car is what I can relate to. And there was a joke in one of the episodes where her sister comes to visit and the kids have never met the sister. 314 00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:10,000 And somebody, I think it was Bingo, had a onesie on that turned her into a cheater or something. Anyway, they were hiding in the car. That's where I'm going with this. And chilly said, that's okay. We won't die because there's food under the seats. 315 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:19,000 And I was like, yes, you can see it in my car. Like, I feel really validated right now. Not judged. 316 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:27,000 Absolutely. Oh, dear. Yeah. Sorry. I hijacked. You were talking about Bluey and then you were going to say something else and I just jumped in. Sorry. 317 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:39,000 And I have to tell you that this is the way that parents in America also respond when I say Bluey. Everyone always goes do do do do do do do do. And like everybody does it. 318 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:53,000 Yeah. Yeah. This woman. I say, yeah, she goes, you watch Miss Rachel. I'm like, yeah, we watch Bluey and Miss Rachel and Sesame Street. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 319 00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:12,000 And then there was something else. We're talking about food and how we both have the same. We have the same kind of outlook on food for our kids where we like, you know, we try to be nutritious, but also where everything in moderation. 320 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:27,000 People set the kids up for positive associations with food and positive relationships with their bodies. And so it just made me feel real good that like, here's this person with this background in early childhood education and the arts. 321 00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:36,000 And we have the same kind of outlook on on things and that she's not going to make me feel like I should have cloth diapers. You know? 322 00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:50,000 Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And when like when you go, she does all this different stuff. It's like, oh, I'll do this while she's not here. And when she gets back, it'll be like, you know, yeah. And I don't know, like, I've been looking after kids for a long time in my job. 323 00:53:50,000 --> 00:54:14,000 And I don't know, I feel like most people are, I don't know what the word is, they are the screen time parents, they are the snack parents. Most people like that. Like that's what we are. But then the voices in the not that section are really loud and then they make us feel bad about our choices or what we do with our kids. 324 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:26,000 So I don't know how you block out the noise, but yeah, it's a hard one. It is a tough one. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that about that. I find it really interesting. 325 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:43,000 I shouldn't say I feel it. It's interesting talking to people about their guilt. I sound like I'm like some sort of creeper. But I just find it fascinating how, you know, people's, their cultural background, the location, their upbringing and everything that goes into creating a person. 326 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:51,000 How that affects how your parent and I just find it so fascinating. So yeah, thanks for indulging me there. 327 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:39,000 Do you find that for you to create, to continue to create and not just in, you know, your profession, but also the things you do at home, like you're talking about all the things you like to do. Do you feel like that's really important for you to maintain for you, for yourself? 328 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:53,000 Yeah, I think a big thing for me, I'm a person with anxiety and depression. And I think, and I know that that's something that comes up a lot in these conversations. Yeah, it's very common. Yeah. 329 00:55:53,000 --> 00:56:11,000 I, when I found pottery, you know, I'm a perfectionist. That's part of how my anxiety manifests in perfectionism and then procrastination. Because if things can't be perfect, then why do them? 330 00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:30,000 When I found pottery, you can't be perfect with it, especially when you're first starting out. And if you make something that's awful, and you fire it, then your mom will want it. And that's great. 331 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:42,000 And your mom always, my mom, I don't know about other people, but my mom always makes me feel good about stuff. So she's got a couple of really terrible things that I've made. 332 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:49,000 My dad also, my dad is also very excellent. They share the bathroom, but I give them to my mom. 333 00:56:49,000 --> 00:57:03,000 And if something flops on the wheel, or it doesn't work out when you're hand building it, you squish it, and you let it dry out a little bit, so it's not completely full of water. 334 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:20,000 And then you do something else, and you try again. And just knowing that it's not going to be perfect, it can't be perfect. And that is okay. And then you can squish it. 335 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:36,000 It was just so, like my very first class, it was so just affirming. And now I can make things that you can use, and I made this mug that I'm drinking out of. 336 00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:40,000 It's gorgeous. Is that blue? Is it blue and brown? 337 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:44,000 It's like a Tiffany blue. 338 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:45,000 Yeah, it's gorgeous. 339 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:56,000 And then brown and I, you know, and I thank you. And I keep learning things and you can hold it and put something in it that will nourish your body. 340 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:03,000 And, you know, I keep learning new techniques and I learned how to facet. 341 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:18,000 I found that I was like, oh my gosh, that's so cool. I want to make everything. And right now I'm taking a class about surface decoration and I'm learning how to scratch away colors and how to do lino prints and things like that and clay. 342 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:28,000 And it's, it's just fun. And if it doesn't work out, the stakes are so low. 343 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,000 Yeah. 344 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:34,000 But if you make something beautiful or something useful. 345 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:51,000 Those stakes are super high and like you've you've done this thing that can help nourish your body or your, your home. I find that the things that I like to do. I was thinking about this today. 346 00:58:51,000 --> 00:59:05,000 The things that I like to do theater, pottery, quilting, baking, require other people's active participation. 347 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:22,000 And so it's this nurturing instinct. These are things that sometimes maybe I do them by myself, but the people, the other people involved aren't passive participants. 348 00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:36,000 And so I find that, you know, maybe I read somewhere someone said, you know, people think I like embroidery because it's soothing and meditative but really I just get to stab something over and over again. 349 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,000 And I felt that very deeply in my soul. 350 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000 I've never thought of it that way. 351 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:55,000 Me either until I read that and I was like, yes, that is exactly. Yes. And when I make my quilts, it's I completely hand piece and hand quilt. 352 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,000 I can't be bothered to load a Bob and I don't know how to do it. It's fine. 353 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,000 It's more trouble than it's worth. 354 01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:14,000 You know, I really feel that. Yeah, I am looking at my sewing machine right now. I don't use it right there. I'm not even sewing by hand. 355 01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:39,000 But I can take it with me to a waiting room and do that there. But then when I finished a quilt, you know, you can you can snuggle or you can say, where's Eloise, or you can, you know, take it to a picnic and sit. 356 01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:50,000 And so there are these. And then with baking you eat it. That's better than having to bake. My husband does baking most of the time. 357 01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:55,000 But I, making a cake, man, that's the best. 358 01:00:55,000 --> 01:01:11,000 Oh, yes. My, my little one. He loves making cakes because he gets to lick the beaters. And that is, oh yeah, that's it. He doesn't eat it afterwards. So we make these cakes and they're sitting there like, oh, better eat this cake as I can't let it go to waste. 359 01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:13,000 You know, damn. Yeah. 360 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:26,000 But yeah, it's and then we may. Yeah. And if we make something else with the batter is not that consistency. He's not interested in helping me at all. Like, it's like he just has to lick the beaters. And it's like this ritual. 361 01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:39,000 I remember as a kid, like getting to lick the beaters when, when we'd, Mum had finished her cooking and, you know, I probably always wanted the one with the most on it. So, you know, I always make sure I give him the one that he wants. 362 01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:53,000 I think the one that whatever I get, you know, I don't know. It's just creating those, the traditions, I suppose that, you know, to teach him how to do it properly too. Cause you don't, you got to not waste any of it. So, you know. 363 01:01:53,000 --> 01:02:06,000 So Mickey knows when I'm baking, if he's not involved and I go, Hey, Mickey, I have a really important job. He knows that means he gets to lick the beaters. Like that's the, he knows what his important job is. 364 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:23,000 I love that. Cause that's the thing when your kids get older, like things that they were quite happy to do when they're starting to be on a teenager, it's like, Oh, I'm actually not interested in that anymore. But that's a lovely way that he'll probably always continue to be involved. Cause who can say no to licking the beaters? 365 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,000 Right? Right? 366 01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:54,000 That's so lovely. That's really nice. I love that. 367 01:02:54,000 --> 01:03:21,000 So with that, I mean, this next question probably won't apply so much to Eloise at this stage of her life, but with Mickey, do you find it important that he sees you as someone who's not just there? And I say just, I shouldn't say just not there only to be in a mothering role for his benefit or for the household's benefit, but you're also your own person and you do things that don't involve anybody else sometimes. 368 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:41,000 Absolutely. I think my mom is the most incredible role model in a lot of ways. But one of those is that she, you know, she was a stay at home mom. And then when I was 10 years old, she went to college. She hadn't gone to college. 369 01:03:41,000 --> 01:04:03,000 So this wasn't going back to school. This was her first go. And so seeing that she was going and getting a degree and doing that set that as a role model for me. I mean, also partly that like, I would be struggling with my homework at the same time that she was struggling with her homework. 370 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:20,000 And so that was a really great. It wasn't great that she was struggling. It was a great thing, a great thing to see that she was, you know, making these efforts to do something that she really wanted to do. 371 01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:42,000 And so that was sort of my role model in that way that, you know, you can be a mom, which is really awesome and also be your own person. And I always kind of struggle a little bit when I'm writing like the Instagram tagline or an artist statement. 372 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:56,000 What do I put first? And if I don't put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? But if I do put mom first, what does that mean for my identity? 373 01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,000 Yeah, it's a double edged sword, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. 374 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:16,000 Yeah. Do I want to be in an outward facing way? 375 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:35,000 Can I get a little bit political? Of course you can. Absolutely. I'd welcome that. Yes. 376 01:05:35,000 --> 01:06:01,000 So Missouri has been making some laws that are against what my family and I personally believe about the right for every human being to be a human being. And there was a trans rights rally in the state capitol, which is just about a half hour away from where we live. 377 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:15,000 And it happened to be a day that neither Mickey nor I had school. And I asked him, I was like, hey, but do you want to, neither of us have school. Do you want to go to the trans rights rally? And he was like, yes, absolutely. 378 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:34,000 Oh, good on him. And Eloise came too, but didn't have a choice. So, you know, but it's, you know, important. I think, you know, he can be whoever he is, whoever he wants to be. 379 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:50,000 But I think it's important that he knows, you know, that we are all political beings and that we make choices in this world to speak up for ourselves and to speak up for other people. 380 01:06:50,000 --> 01:07:08,000 So, you know, talk about like life is politics. You can't leave politics out of a conversation. I actually just commented that on a parenting message board where they were like, oh, shouldn't, you know, can't we just have one space where we can keep politics out of it? 381 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:20,000 I don't understand why. I just, life is politics. My body is political. My parenting is political. My teaching is political. Like life is politics. 382 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:28,000 Yeah, literally. It's all, it all overlaps. Like we can't be who we are. We couldn't be who we are if it wasn't for the political environment that we're in. 383 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:39,000 So absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. My parents were protesters in the 60s. So I found my dad's conscientious objector card from the Vietnam War. 384 01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:41,000 Beautiful. Yes. 385 01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:45,000 Which is pretty rad. 386 01:07:45,000 --> 01:08:00,000 But, but yeah, I think that for, for kids to know that their parents are caregivers and also that it's important for them to take care of themselves. 387 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:04,000 Never thought about it that way until it just came out of my mouth. That's what it is. 388 01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:15,000 It's amazing in a nutshell, literally, isn't it? Like that's it. Because if you don't look after yourself, you don't care for yourself, you can't look after anybody else. 389 01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:21,000 And going back to what you're saying about involving your son in the politics, I think it's really important to do that. 390 01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:33,000 And I was having this conversation with someone, I can't remember, a while ago maybe, about the way the generation's, certainly in Australia, I'm not, you know, obviously familiar with, with how it's been going over there. 391 01:08:33,000 --> 01:08:42,000 My parents and my grandparents would never tell me who they voted for. Like they wouldn't, we have the, we have the two parties here, the main parties, you've got the Liberal and Labour. 392 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:54,000 And Liberal is meant to be Liberal, but it's not the right word to describe that party because they're not, they're not modern, they're not progressive, they're not for the people, they're sort of the opposite. 393 01:08:54,000 --> 01:09:05,000 They're the right wingers. And the left wing is the Labour Party, which is, you know, for the working man and for the arts and for all the good things that I believe in. 394 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:20,000 Yes. And yeah, so yeah, I didn't find out who my family voted for for a very long time. And there's also this culture over here, and I guess it's the same everywhere, that you sort of, you don't necessarily vote for who your parents voted for, because they voted for that. 395 01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:26,000 But you're brought up in that particular way that it's more likely you're going to vote that way, I guess. 396 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:34,000 It'd be pretty radical if you sort of went off the other way, I guess. So yeah, I sort of worked it out just by accident as I got older. 397 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:42,000 And I remember asking my Nana once, like, because it was voting day and they went off and voted. And I said, who do you vote for? She goes, oh, no, you don't ask people that. You can't, you can't ask people that. 398 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:52,000 And I'm really glad now that the politics is such an open conversation, because, you know, my son's almost 16. We voted 18 over here. 399 01:09:52,000 --> 01:10:00,000 And it's, I don't want him walking into a polling booth one day just going, oh, OK, so what's this all about? What do I do here? 400 01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:09,000 You know, like, I want him to grow up understanding the culture that we live in and how the politics obviously, as we said before, it's a fundamental part of our lives. 401 01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:18,000 And we often joke, you know, my husband has been a Liberal voter for a long time and I've been a Labor voter forever. 402 01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:32,000 And we chat to my son about the differences and why, you know, a political in a certain circumstance or over a particular issue, why I feel the way I do and why the way dad feels the way he does, you know. 403 01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:49,000 So I'm not telling him he has to vote for either or whatever. I simply want him to have an understanding of how these parties and what they believe in will affect him as a person and the decisions that he'll make in his life moving forward and in his children's life if he has them. 404 01:10:49,000 --> 01:10:57,000 So, yeah, I'm I'm all for it. I think it's wonderful to get kids involved as early as you can, as early as is appropriate or as you believe. 405 01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:05,000 And I think it's also for your child and your family, because like you said, it's it's all intertwined. You can't have one without the other. 406 01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:13,000 My husband is actually a professor of political science. That's what brought us to Missouri. Awesome. 407 01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:31,000 And his father is also a professor of political science. Yeah. And so like he knows who his father and whose parents had voted for because, you know, he was out on campaign trails and, you know, doing research and things like that. 408 01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:46,000 With Do you know the American sitcom from the 80s? Family Ties? Oh, yes, very much. Yes. Yes. Yes. So with Alex P Keaton, who was a Reagan Republican, while his parents were hippies. 409 01:11:46,000 --> 01:12:02,000 And so I think about that pretty frequently that like, you know, you can be anything you want to be, but like, don't don't do that. It's been over the last several very scary years. 410 01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:17,000 Yes. With, you know, people are changing from what, you know, they had traditionally been voting either for better or for worse. 411 01:12:17,000 --> 01:12:32,000 And people have started having these conversations more and more frequently as, you know, you become empowered to tell, you know, especially older relatives like, hey, it's not okay that you talk that way. 412 01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,000 Yes, we had a member of our family come out as transgender. 413 01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:52,000 And, you know, a couple, was it just last year? I think it was just last year. And, you know, having to, you know, teach their 90 something year old grandmother. 414 01:12:52,000 --> 01:13:12,000 You know, the other relatives who are of our parents generation, you know, what that means and that they are still the same person. They just, you know, have a name and a, you know, and other stuff that fits them better now. 415 01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:22,000 And, you know, we, plus this current generation that like, we, we told Mickey, we're like, hey, here's, here's what's going on with this member of our family. 416 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,000 Do you have any questions? And he's like, no. 417 01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:30,000 And we like randomly ran into this family member. 418 01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:44,000 We knew that we were going to the same place on a family vacation, but we didn't know we look around into them on the beach. Yeah, and we hung out with them for a while and then they went their way and we went our way. 419 01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:49,000 And we looked at Mickey we're like so see same same exact person. 420 01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:54,000 He looks at me he goes, I know. 421 01:13:54,000 --> 01:14:04,000 Yeah, no, like, no, like nerves or anything. It's like, yes. No. Yeah. Yeah, it's wonderful. Isn't it. 422 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:10,000 We are, you know, of minority religion. 423 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:15,000 But we don't wear our minority on the outside. 424 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:19,000 I am also of a minority gender, I am a woman. 425 01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:29,000 But, you know, for all intents and purposes, at least as far as we know now, Mickey is cisgender straight white male. 426 01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:41,000 And we have spoken pretty frequently about, you know that, you know, he's got a responsibility to speak up for people who don't have those appearances. 427 01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:43,000 Yeah, yeah. 428 01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:49,000 And, you know, I'm sorry that we've had to have those conversations. 429 01:14:49,000 --> 01:15:11,000 My husband, but I'm glad that we have had them. My husband is not Jewish. And when, you know conversations about, you know, there was a right wing awful protests where they were chanting the Jews will not replace us. 430 01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:18,000 And things like that. And he was like, well, you know, conversations about the Holocaust and things like that. 431 01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,000 He's like, well, isn't Mickey too young to hear about these things? 432 01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:25,000 And I'm like, I don't ever remember not knowing. Yeah. 433 01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:29,000 Like, I don't remember a time in my life when I didn't know what the Holocaust was. 434 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:31,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 435 01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:44,000 It wasn't like this moment where you remember getting sat down and told it was like part of your culture, part of your, it was there. A very visible part of, of, yeah, knowing. Yeah. 436 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:57,000 Yeah, yeah. It's an important part of being a human being. And, you know, when people talk about bringing it back to the arts, you know, when people talk about the arts, well can't they just not be political. 437 01:15:57,000 --> 01:16:04,000 Why do actors have to talk about politics? Why do the arts are political? The arts have always been political. 438 01:16:04,000 --> 01:16:15,000 When we read Richard the third, we have to remember that, you know, Shakespeare's patron was Queen Elizabeth the first. 439 01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:23,000 And her, now I'm going to get the lineage wrong. It was either her grandfather or her father. No, it wasn't her father. It was her grandfather. 440 01:16:23,000 --> 01:16:33,000 Her father was Henry the eighth. It was her grandfather, who is the hero who slays Richard at the end of the play. Richard the third is political propaganda. 441 01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:36,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 442 01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:42,000 Theatre is always political. Art is always political. Period. Yeah. 443 01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:54,000 We actually had this big thing happen in Australia recently, or not recently now, a few, few months ago. Was it last year? I can't remember now. Time's just a construct really. 444 01:16:54,000 --> 01:17:01,000 As we were saying before. But yeah, there was this lady. She's the richest person in Australia. 445 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:09,000 I'm not going to honour her by saying her name because I don't believe in her beliefs and her thoughts and her things. So, 446 01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:14,000 she won't be listening, so it doesn't matter. But Australians will know who I'm talking about. 447 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:17,000 She has a lot of minds that she inherited from her father. 448 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:24,000 And anyway, she was sponsoring one of the netball teams. 449 01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:31,000 And one of the netball players is an Indigenous Australian First Nations person. 450 01:17:31,000 --> 01:17:40,000 And she made a comment that she wasn't really impressed by the comments that this rich person's father had said about Aboriginal people. 451 01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:46,000 He'd said it back in the 80s. And it wasn't appropriate then, but never obviously got called out then. 452 01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:58,000 But so this woman's sort of response to that was to take all the money away from them, took all of their funding away so they didn't have a sponsor. 453 01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:05,000 And most women in Australia that play professional sport, they have a day job because they can't get sponsorship. 454 01:18:05,000 --> 01:18:11,000 So they're not full-time professional athletes, unlike the men who get a lot of money. 455 01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:21,000 Anyway, this rich person made the comment that sport and politics should never mix. 456 01:18:21,000 --> 01:18:31,000 And it just reminded me when you said about the arts, it's like, particularly in a country like Australia where sport is like a religion, it is like a way of life for people. 457 01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:38,000 And politics overlaps everything, like we've said. It just reminded me of that. And I thought, I'll mention it. 458 01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:43,000 I don't know why it's taken me so long to get it out. But that was my point. 459 01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:55,000 Yes, absolutely. No, I totally and I have all of these thoughts spinning in my head about like, it's the same thing has happened in America. 460 01:18:55,000 --> 01:19:01,000 We play the national anthem before all of our sporting events, which, yeah, let's take politics out of it. 461 01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:06,000 Why do we play the national anthem before all of our sporting events? Yeah, whatever. Yeah. 462 01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:14,000 But then a few years ago, people started kneeling during the national anthem. 463 01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:27,000 They don't really stand for what the national anthem stands for and got kicked off of teams and their sponsors taken away and things like that. 464 01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:39,000 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. That really annoyed me. That did that whole the taking the knee, like, honestly, it's a wonderful thing to do. 465 01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:48,000 And then it just got turned into this, I don't know, white persons again, taking over and saying what everybody can do or can't do. 466 01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:55,000 It's like back to the colonial days. Sorry, that's not a very nice thing to say. But that's what it reminded me of. 467 01:19:55,000 --> 01:20:01,000 You are absolutely I 100% agree with you. Yes. Yeah, it's horrible. 468 01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:07,000 Well, thank you. No, thanks for talking about that stuff. I like a good chat about politics. 469 01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:20,000 And I do. Yeah, it's and it's I do like to hear about other countries, how they're going with stuff too, because I mean, I, I consume a lot of media, particularly independent media, but there's nothing like hearing it. 470 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:33,000 Not from the horse's mouth. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? Getting a person's perspective, living it right now. Yeah. But Jesus, some stuff going on over there. 471 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:42,000 I watch what's happening in America and Jesus, I feel sorry for you guys. I just think, oh, can you imagine do you think one day it will actually become two countries? 472 01:20:42,000 --> 01:21:00,000 Like, is it that bad that people just have to not be near each other? And that's a really simplistic thing to say. But yeah, it's wild because like where I live would absolutely be the part of the country that I don't agree with. 473 01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:18,000 Because that's, yeah, that's who I am. And it's so interesting because the two major cities, St. Louis and Kansas City, St. Louis, in particular, is so much more liberal, liberal, like actual liberal. 474 01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:31,000 Than the rest of Missouri. But just the way that political lines are drawn. That's the thing. Our political lines are drawn just horribly. Yeah, right. 475 01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:54,000 And you know, there's, you know, Missouri is one of nine states in the country that has a compulsory Holocaust education. Right. Which is wild to me. Like, it's amazing. Yeah. But that's 100% because of lobbyists in St. Louis. Yeah, okay. 476 01:21:54,000 --> 01:22:12,000 And, you know, where I live right now in Columbia is this like, so the left is blue and the right is red. So we're in this tiny little blue dot in the sea of red. Yeah, right. 477 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:32,000 And apparently, you know, for a major part because the university is here. But yeah, it's wild. Like it is. Yeah. It's, and like I don't, you know, people say like, well, if you don't like it, go someplace else. 478 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:45,000 So well, you know, but then I couldn't make change happen. Not that I one person I'm going to make change happen. I know what you mean though. It's like you're abandoning the opportunity to be involved in challenging what they're happening. What's happening here, I guess. 479 01:22:45,000 --> 01:23:00,000 Yeah. But at the same time, like I know families with transgender children who are leaving the state because they have. Oh, you'd fear, you'd fear for your safety. Like, from what I've seen over here. Yeah, if that's accurate. Yeah, it's pretty appalling. 480 01:23:00,000 --> 01:23:04,000 It's really, it's really appalling. Reproductive rates as well. It's. Oh, yes. 481 01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:21,000 Oh man. All the things. Yeah. Yeah, jeepers. And it's funny though. I would say, oh, this is a reasonable guess. Almost 100% of people I've talked to on this show. I don't know if it's an arts thing, but they're always left leaning voters. 482 01:23:21,000 --> 01:23:39,000 If it's a thing about compassion and, you know, listening to people emotion sharing, supporting each other. It's always the arts people. It's just an inherent thing. Yeah. Well, it's interesting reading or I was wearing. 483 01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:55,000 I have a shirt that says I'm with the band, but it's B-A-N-N-E-D. I love that. Band books. I wore it to work the other day and one of the fifth graders said to me, you know, is that about band books? And I said, yeah. 484 01:23:55,000 --> 01:24:05,000 And she said, why do people ban books? And I said, because they don't want to ask questions about things. They just want to get rid of things that they don't understand. 485 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:33,000 And then she gave me a big high five. But I think that that brings it all back to the power of positivity and asking questions. And I think that artists are in a specifically a uniquely appropriate place to be able to ask those questions and try to understand things that aren't necessarily part of their world. 486 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:59,000 We talk about in education, we talk about providing children with windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors in our libraries. So the books that we have on our shelves should give a mirror so that they see themselves windows so that they can see other people's experiences and sliding glass doors so they can walk through and experience themselves with empathy. 487 01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:10,000 And I think that that is something that left leaning people are more willing to do than right leaning people are. 488 01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:37,000 Yeah, yeah, that was very well said. I love that. 489 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:52,000 I actually have we have a family from Australia in our school. Yeah, and students because we have an emerging curriculum. We get to just answer the questions that the kiddos are interested in exploring. Yeah, give them education. 490 01:25:52,000 --> 01:26:09,000 And we were talking about, try to remember what exactly we were talking about. Oh, we were talking about if cultures all over the world celebrate things in December in exactly the same ways. 491 01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:22,000 Yeah, and so they understand their celebrate, you know, we don't celebrate holidays at work, but obviously like most of the kiddos in our school celebrate Christmas. So we talked about Christmas a lot. Yeah. 492 01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:33,000 And so they're like, well, Christmas is snowmen and reindeer. And so we talked about how reindeer are from Lapland and where Lapland is. 493 01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:44,000 And then I asked Karen, who's the mom from Australia, I was like, Can you come in and talk to my class? 494 01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:55,000 How you celebrate Christmas in Australia? Yeah, absolutely. So she brought like Christmas crackers and stuff and it was super fun. They were all like, wait, there's no snow. 495 01:26:55,000 --> 01:27:05,000 And he's like, no, it's summer. It's super hot. We're sweltering. But we wish there was snow. Yeah, it's fascinating. 496 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:34,000 Fantastic conversation. 497 01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:43,000 So one of your questions that you had on your website was me to find new ways to work so you could continue creating. Yes. Yes. 498 01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:52,000 I thought that was super interesting because I actually didn't start doing any of this until I had kids. Yeah, right. 499 01:27:52,000 --> 01:28:16,000 So I was a theater, so I was doing all the theater stuff, which has definitely changed since I had kids. Yeah. But I didn't discover the visual stuff until when I was teaching in the theater and realized, 500 01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:27,000 Oh, if I was going to teach theater to kindergartners and first graders, I was going to need to learn how to teach visual arts. Yeah, because I was going to have to have them sit down and draw things. 501 01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:38,000 And I was going to have to, you know, have them create things. And so it wasn't until I was in my late 20s that I started doing those things. 502 01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:53,000 And that was completely inspired by my students I was teaching. And just having discovered I didn't pick up a ukulele until I was pregnant with Mickey because I wanted to have an instrument that I could play for and with my child. 503 01:28:53,000 --> 01:29:17,000 Yeah. And so, you know, baking came about after I had Mickey really because I wanted that sensory thing to do with him. And all of these things have come about relatively recently quilting in December 2020 because I wanted something that I could do during the 504 01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:32,000 pandemic. Yeah, at my house. And so I knew myself as a theater creative, but I didn't know myself with these other things until I was already a mom. 505 01:29:32,000 --> 01:30:00,000 Oh, hey, that's really cool. Yeah. 506 01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:12,000 It's been so lovely chatting with you Jen. I've really really enjoyed it. It's been great. And yeah, again, thank you for indulging me in the political side of things because that is one of my favorite things to talk about. 507 01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:22,000 But it's been fascinating and learning all about the dramaturgy which I didn't even know was a thing. And I just yeah it's it thank you for sharing so much I really appreciate it. 508 01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:28,000 Absolutely. Thank you for having grown up conversations with me they can be few and far between. 509 01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:35,000 I'm happy to indulge anytime you need one just let me know. 510 01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:48,000 Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. 511 01:30:48,000 --> 01:31:00,000 The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Alemjo, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband John. 512 01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:05,000 If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. 513 01:31:05,000 --> 01:31:12,000 If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. 514 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:18,000 I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum. 515 01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,000 Yeah. 516 01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:13,000 Yeah. 517 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,000 Yeah. 518 01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,000 Yeah. 519 01:33:42,000 --> 01:33:43,000 Yeah. 520 01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:13,000 Yeah. 521 01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:43,000 Yeah.

Danielle Kloberdanz Netherlands born author S2 Ep52 Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts (itunes) Spotify and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Danielle Kloberdanz, an author based in San Diego, California and a mother of 4. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands. A child of 3, Danielle was always interested in children, and began baby sitting the neighbours children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families, and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development and went on to study Developmental Psychology at College, It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who was soon to be her husband, 9 months later in fact! They enjoyed a whirlwind romance, travelling Europe together, before being married and settling down. Her dream was to have 4 children, and Danielle was determined to make that happen, even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Danielle finally realised her lifelong dream of having 4 children, it was then that she slowly realised that she no longer existed as a person, and her idea of what being a 'good mum' meant, was challenged. Danielle released her first book Inner Compass Mom: Finding Peace and Purpose in the Midst of Motherhood in May 2021 which outlines her journey, and the life changing experience which lead to her new outlook on motherhood. **This episode contains discussions around miscarriage, premature birth, ** Connect with Danielle Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to gain touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which this podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest this week is Danielle Clover Dan's an author based in San Diego, California, and a mum of four children. Danielle was born and raised in the Netherlands, a child of three. Danielle was always interested in children and babies, and she began babysitting the neighbor's children when she was 12. She was drawn to big families and the energy they bring. Danielle was fascinated with children's growth and development, and went on to study developmental psychology at college. It was on a trip to the US for her sister's wedding that she met the man who assumed to be your husband. Nine months later, in fact, they enjoyed a whirlwind romance traveling Europe together before being married and settling down. Her dream was always to have four children. And Danielle was determined to make that happen. Even in the face of health issues, bed rest, premature births and miscarriages. But when Daniel finally realized her lifelong dream of having those four children, it was then that she slowly realized that she no longer existed as a person. And her idea of what being a good mom meant was challenged. Danielle released her first book, inner compass mum finding peace and purpose in the midst of motherhood in May of 2021. The book outlines her journey and the life changing experience which led to her new outlook on motherhood. This episode contains discussions around miscarriage and premature birth. Music you'll hear today is from Australian ambient music trio LM Joe, featuring myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John N is used with permission. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Welcome along today, Danielle, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to welcome you to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I am intrigued by your podcasts and listened to several and Oh, thank you. I was excited to be on this one. Awesome. Wow, what time is it in your your zone? Well, we've just gone past 11:30am So it's quite a nice Sunday morning. Just nice and lazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. It looks sunny in your place. Yeah, I've had to close the blinds because the sun's coming in so much. It's like distorting, like how I look to you. Yes, I can see the glow. I have to do some artificial glow because the sun is going down here. So yeah. What's the what's the time there? It's 7pm. Right. Yeah. We just had the time change the, you know, daylight savings. Yeah, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you right now. In San Diego, San Diego, San Diego, California. Right now you're in San Diego. But whereabouts did you start out in life? Well, I was born and raised in Holland, in the Netherlands. And I well, I moved to San Diego or to actually to Orange County, California, at the age of 26, barely 26. But before I met my husband, I you know, just did the normal thing and went to college to study developmental psychology in Amsterdam. And then I, I had, you know, a job for about a year it was hard to find a job in my field actually. And I worked at a temp agency for a year and that's when I met my my husband during that time. But yeah, so I just I, to be honest, I never really cared about a career. I just wanted to have a family and but what do you do? You're not just gonna sit around wait for some guy to come along. Are you, you know, you got to make some of your life and then hopefully it all happen. So I went to college, and I always loved babysitting, I loved hanging out with kids, I loved watching their, you know, development and how they think and how they would learn. So I was intrigued by children's. So developmental psychology really seemed to fit fit me. And so that's what I pursued. And yeah, until I met my husband, when I was 25. Actually, he got married when I was 26. And then I moved over to the United States. Yeah. So that that interest in wanting to become a mom, that intense drive, was that something cultural or something that you'd been exposed to growing up? Was that sort of the norm that you would grow up? Women would have children? Or was that something innate in yourself? Do you think? Well, my mom was a stay at home mom, until I was and I'm, I'm the youngest of three, I have two older sisters, and we're all a couple of years apart. And then my mom started working when I was in my mid teens, so to say, but I always just I wanted to be a mom, I wasn't sure what I would. I wasn't really sure what I was good at. Like in school, I was kind of an average student, like, nothing really stood out. The actually the best the subject that was that was easiest for me, was actually English, English is mandatory middle school and high school. And that was the only subject that was kind of came more natural to me. It turned out came in handy later, for sure. But I was intrigued by by science, but I wasn't very good at it. You know, like math, oh, my gosh, you know, just just not my thing. So I was like, What am I good at? What is my passion. And then I started babysitting the family across the street from us when I was like, 12, just an hour. So mom could do groceries, and I just loved it. And they, they had a big family, they ended up having five kids. And the parents themselves were from large families. So whenever there was a birthday party, I was invited, and the whole house was just filled with this wonderful energy. People were laughing and having wonderful comfort stations. And everybody just seemed happy. And I just wanted to create a big happy family for myself. And that's all I really wanted. I just wanted to be a stay at home mom, and I thought I would thoroughly enjoy it. Well, we'll talk about that later how to, you know, the life that I wanted happen and then, you know, it turns out isn't really as fulfilling as I had hoped it would be. talking us through, you know, you met your husband, you got married? Was it then like straight away? Right, let's do this. We're gonna have this family that I've always dreamed of. How did how did it sort of go from there? Yes. So when? So I met my husband at my sister's wedding actually, she was able, I mean, we all grew up in Holland. You know, we my sister, so but she was able to get a two year visa to work in the US. And during that time she met a guy decided to marry him. And so we went to the wedding. And that's where I met my husband. And we so we dated for a while. I mean, nothing happened at the wedding. People can read the story in my mom, they can read all the details and how all that went down. But basically, because I was living in Holland, we basically dated internationally and we traveled in Europe and we dated in you know, Belgium like Bruges and Antwerp and Barcelona and then basically, seven months, but no, it was eight months after we met he proposed to me in in Prague, so and the next month we were married so like within like nine months out After we met, we were married. And we, we read it, and then a couple months later was able to emigrate. Yeah, we were married in February. And I emigrated in April. So that all happened really fast. And so we decided to wait a little bit with having kids because also, my husband wanted to get his master's in business. So we decided to just get that out of the way before we'd have kids and enjoy a little bit more freedom before you know, babies would arrive and get to know each other even better each other nine months. But I will say, when you travel together, you get to know each other really fast. And it's either going to work or it's not. And it was going to work. So we we were just both convinced, you know, once you know, you just know. And we just celebrated our 24th wedding anniversary. Stories isn't it's a real love story. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. My husband comes from a large family. By the way, I was thrilled to find out when I met him, and we get to know each other, that my husband is one of eight children. He's number five. And I just loved it. And his older siblings already had kids. And so every family get together was just filled with, you know, that same kind of energy. The laughter everybody's talking, and just having a great time and bringing up both stories from the past. And just I don't know, there's just something about big families that I just love. And yeah, so he's like, Okay, you want to have kids? Okay, well, three, or fours. What do you have in mind? Well, first half of what I grew up with, so I guess, we'll figure out how to manage that my mum managed to, you know, raise eight children. I don't know how she did it. Anyway, yeah. So yeah, so you're pretty happy with four. Four is a good number. Well, it's an even though it I was I was the last one of three. So sometimes I did feel like, you know, my two older sisters would, would play together. And I was always a little too young or third wheel basically. So I always figured, you know, if possible, even numbers, and my husband loves numbers. He loves even numbers. He's, he's his background is in accounting. He's not he does production now. But he, he loves even balance. And it worked out well actually. Having two sets of kids basically. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah. Yeah. The first two are close in age. They're 19 months apart. And and then I felt tell you after the second one, because I always had complicated pregnancies. I was putting bedrest I had preterm labor with every every child. With the first one. I made it to 38 weeks, so I thought, well, maybe it wasn't that big of an issue. Maybe we'll be fine. So we tried for another one. And I, I got pregnant, fast. And so they're 90 months apart, but I was definitely put up that this again with the second one. So she was actually born five weeks, early at 35 weeks. But the fine she was in the NICU for like eight days, I think. And then she came home. So that was a bit like, oh, wow, that's, you know, you know, a second pregnancy and now you know, we are preterm here, but 90 months is is a bit challenging. I think any parent who has kids close in age knows that you probably will have to in diapers for a while. And then there's this sibling rivalry that really was an issue. And it's a lot. So I actually thought, oh, and at the time, my husband was really busy. Like he worked 60 hours a week. He traveled a lot. So I felt like I was a single mom. So after having to I thought there's no way You can have more kids, I can barely manage to what was I thinking, wanting to have all these kids, it's just no way. But as life went on, and the kids got to be a little bit older, and you know of the diaper phase and things like that, I did start secretly longing for another baby, there's just something in me that said, I don't want to be done, baby, there's something about having babies, and I don't know, I just didn't want to be done. And then actually, what happened was, I had, I had just regular you know, bloodwork done just a doctor's appointment to suit annual checkup, or whatever it was just like, hey, we haven't checked your blood. And while let's just see. And it turned out that my platelet count was really, really low. And so they sent me to a specialist. And the specialist said, this is this is not good. This is not a good situation, we got to figure out what's going on, because you could have an autoimmune disease disorder. It might be leukemia, it might be a mess. And I was just shocked. Because I mean, I did feel healthy, but you just never know what's going on, you just don't know. So I went back for several months to get checked and checked. And it turned out what probably happened was my birth control, which my naturopathic doctor said, like, why don't you stop taking birth control, because I had switched and sometimes that I guess, with some can be the cause of, you know, but the platelets start to stick anyway, not a doctor. So, but after several months, my blood started. So unlike normal levels again, and then I think it was like seven months. And my doctor said, Okay, I guess you're, you're healthy. It must have been that and, you know, you have a clean bill of health. And I remember sitting in my car after that appointment, and I just started crying like, oh my gosh, you know, like, this is like a miracle you because, you know, I had so much fear, like, what if I have a disease? What if I have something that's really life changing? Or, you know, potentially worse, so? And I remember it so well, that moment, because I think our youngest was about two or three, two years old. And I thought, Well, what do I want to do, you have a second chance of living healthy life. And I just remember, I know exactly what I want. And I want to I want to have more babies. And I want to stop living in fear. Because there are no guarantees in life. There really aren't, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. So I figured I might as well go for my big dream and figure it out. And right at the time, I My husband was able to get the job in San Diego. And we ended up moving and everything became a lot more manageable and simple. And just a normal 40 hour workweek and a short commute. So that created space for us to have another baby and and then yeah, number girl number three came along and and then you know, I was ready like after yours ready paid. Let's do this. Let's have another one. Come on baby number four, right all in well. And then I think God or the Universe told me that so fast, not so fast. So I miscarried a couple of times, which was, which was really shocking to me that really, that really messed with me. Well woke me up actually, just to be the more I think the more grateful for how easy it was always for me to get pregnant. I would always get pregnant right away and the Healthy Kids and that's something you can never take for granted, you know. But I was going through a trying time of Wow. So I am feeling this really strong desire for a fourth child. That just felt so right to me like, No, we're gonna have four kids. This is what I wanted. This is what I'm gonna get. This is yeah, why wouldn't I Why wouldn't that happen to me or for me? And because of the two miscarriages and because I get pregnant And right away. I'm like, I need time I need to figure out, I need to get some answers. And I was already very spiritual. And what I do is I basically asked the universe guide me show me, what am I supposed to do? Give me some answers. And I knew I had to just give it some time and like, I'm not gonna, we're not going to try for a few months, several months, we're just going to wait and then try to think about it and just just give it maybe even half a year. And then we'll see if I get any signs if I changed my mind, I don't know. And then, pretty quickly after I decided actually, to just wait for a few months, I had this dream. I don't know if I should go to all these details. It's all in the book. But it basically was, I was at this convention. And there was this Native American Chief is very wise man that anybody had questions? He could answer like he was connected to God university could just channeled answers. And I was waiting patiently for my turn. And I kind of close my eyes kind of meditating is it was all in my dream. And, of course, I knew what I was going to ask like, are we meant to have a fourth child because I believe you can want something but I also believe it has to like, integrate with what maybe the universe wants for you. Or there's some mystery around that. Like, what is freewill? What is destiny? What are we meant to do here? So I just wasn't sure. Anyway, in my dream, when I finally it was my turn to ask this chief. I opened my eyes and it was kind of waiting. I had been it's gonna be kind of weird. The teeth was not there. But there was big poster that said, Yes, of course, you meant to have another child just don't wait. You need to try now. And I'm like, gosh, I woke up and I go, Oh, my gosh, it's here. This is it. And it's I don't know any any listener who who's worked with beans before and has had these guiding dreams, the energy that comes from these dreams. It's so different. You feel transformed, you wake up, and you know, this is different. This is not just oh, you're just processing your day today. Your worries, your anxieties. This is this is a lot more and you just know, this is it. I have to follow this. And yeah, sure enough, nine months later, we had our baby boy. It's like, I will live my life that way. If I if I'm stuck. I don't know. I throw my I know, there's an answer for me. And I throw it out there in the universe to God or whatever you want to call it. Just expect an answer to come and it always comes you got to learn to receive it. Yeah, that's it isn't about being open and allowing it to come and not questioning or not trying to second guess it's just what do you have to tell me and just waiting for it to come? Yeah, it does. If you Yeah, if you're open to it, you'll you'll get it? Yeah, I'm a big believer in that too. Yeah. So you hate we've got your four kids, you've got your dream. And how did things go from them? So I think moms who are listening can recognize that you know, the first couple of years the baby years toddler years, they're just intense It's physical. It's draining I mean, you don't sleep at night you're just chasing them they're starting to crawl I mean it's it's very demanding. And and then you think well, it's gonna get easier as they get a little older and it does it does get easier so that's what I thought you know, let's see had you know, first of all, after I had two kids that well it's gonna get easier it was very hard in the beginning with only 19 months apart, and then it got easier and then yeah, we added more kids so I thought okay, it's a lot I got a kid in elementary school and a preschool and then again, a toddler at home and a newborn but it's gonna get easier we're gonna get through this and many others have done this before me. And and and something Of course, they'll get easier. But there's also other things that got harder, you know, you're dealing with four kids with very different personalities, and every kid needs something else from you. And I think one of the frustrating parts is, you think you've figured something out with one kid, and you're like, Oh, this is great, it's working, this is working, my kid is actually doing what I needed to do, or everything is kind of flowing better, and you try to apply it to another kid forget, it's not going to work. Or two weeks later, a month later, the same system, same approach, it's just not working anymore. So you constantly have to, like reinvent yourself or something. And so, it, it was harder and or in different ways. And that feeling that I was looking for, and longing for, of like creating this, basically, this this house full of joy, these kids running around and being all happy and bringing me joy and liveliness, and you know, the whole purpose. It. Yeah, there were moments like that. Absolutely. You know, but not enough for me to say yes, now I have exactly what I wanted. Technically I did it looked like that on the outside, I have exactly a good list, a great husband, Healthy Kids, great neighborhood, beautiful home, good schools, and something was still missing. And I wasn't happy. And I, for the longest time I would beat myself up stuffing so ungrateful. Be grateful for all the gifts in your life. You should be happy, you should be happy, you should be happy. Why are you not happy. But at some point, when my youngest was in preschool, I realized, stop, you got to start listening to yourself. Because if you don't make a change, now, you're going to end up being bitter and unhappy and resentful, and you do not want to go. You don't want to be that person. So that's when I went on my my journey of getting some answers of how I would make some changes in my life. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming four kids, you've outlined you know all the different stages. It's also demanding like weird. Did you actually fit in there? Did you feel like you were just that you existed only for your children? That was the only thing that you did was meet the needs of your children? Basically, yeah, I basically I was wanting to be moms. So now I know, the way I define being a good mom. And I'm connected to a lot of moms in especially in my neighborhood. And basically, I now know why I got so stuck and why I wasn't as fulfilled with my situations because I the way I defined what it means to be a good mom. And that's how we get stuck. That's how I got stuck. I will find being a good mom as someone who you got to give everything to your children and you just do everything, maybe not do everything for them. Because you know, they gotta learn to do things on their own. But, you know, you you create that family, you create the memories and you you know, you drop everything and you make sure to go to the birthday parties, and they go to try different sports and music and, and everything because you give give give because that's a bit mum. Because when you're a good mom, you make sure you you give them the right education and that they do really well in school. So you support all their education, their school, and if they need anything, you're right there talking to the teacher, whatever it takes to give this child and all these kids the best possible situation so that they can go to college and have a good career later on because then there'll be happy and then and I didn't realize that that's where it all came from until I had my spiritual awakening a few years ago. It was so because I thought if they did well and checked all the boxes, you know The boxes, graduating high school, going into college graduating, they're finding a good company to work for getting married, given me grandbabies, that will mean that I had done a good job as a mom. And when I had my spiritual awakening, I realized all the flaws in my thinking, because it's just not true. It's just not true. And it doesn't mean the opposite is true. Like, yeah, that. Because, yeah, we all influence our lives. Our kids, like they influence everybody that who we meet, who, whose lives we touch we do. But when I had my awakening, I saw that the picture is so much bigger than we experience in our day to day life, or at least that than what I had experienced in my day to day like, it's like, almost like I used to have tunnel vision. And then even the narrow vision I had of my life and life in general, was also tainted by this lens that was so colored by life experiences, by biases by judgments by your culture by a roll up. Yes. So when I had that, that awakening, which just basically happened in broad daylight in my kitchen, not being under the influence of anything, every reason? Why did you smoke? Me? And people can read about that in the compass. Mom, how that all went down? I won't go into details. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. It shifted my perspective completely about everything that I believed was true, you know, waking up to all my false and limiting beliefs. Yeah, so when you had that, how did you then make the changes, I suppose like, it's, like you say, had this moment, and it's the sixth you've had this. I don't know what the word is epiphany, it's, you've realized how you can live your life in a different way to, to, to feel, you know, meet your needs, I guess, where you like practically, then like, how did you think, Oh, how am I actually going to do this? I suppose. That's a big question, I suppose. Yeah. Well, let me let me try to answer that. Because about a year before it had that awakening, I had already decided that I needed to make a change. I think my youngest my son was about three years old. And I already had recognized or acknowledged that. I'm not happy. Stop denying it. You need to make a change, because this is not going to get any better automatically. I have to, and I didn't know how I was going to make a change. But I realized what I was what I was craving was silence. I just needed solitude. Just silence. And not all that mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, you know, it isn't just constant. They always need as soon as they see you for a while. This has just always been fascinating to me. They're playing nicely in their room, the doors open. So you walk by often they realize, oh, we need more. I'm like, No, he didn't need me for like half an hour. You didn't need me. And I'm walking by. And it's awesome. They need you. They need you for whatever, they'll come up with something. They make it up on the spot. They just need mom. So anyway, I was really craving just solitude and I was craving reading books again. I was never a big reader. But I was always interested in spirituality and psychology. And I hadn't read a book in 10 years or so. Because if you have kids, you don't even want to I mean, I talked to a lot of moms who are going through that now. I mean, I I published my book a year ago, almost. And a lot of moms with young ones. They say, I have your book. I just I just can't get to it. I am like I hear you. I hear you. So I actually recorded the audiobook because moms can listen to audiobooks or podcasts while they're folding laundry or commuting to work or whatever. So yeah, that'll help solve that. But yeah, I didn't. I didn't read a book for like 10 years and then it was Breathing, oh, information and getting that inspiration again, about you know, so I started reading. And then what actually happened was, I was so intrigued by what I read. In these books, I started taking notes, I started journaling about all these amazing insights, it was like, it was like I had been asleep for 10 years. And also, there's a whole new world out there, that doesn't really have kids in it. And it's like, so amazing. And I was just inspired again. And so yeah, I that's how I started to come alive. Again, reading and journaling, and even doing a little bit of art, drawing a little bit of painting again, and just taking time for myself. There's a quote in the book where you say that you discovered parts of yourself that you had forgotten about. And that would have been just an incredible thing, like you say, you got back to painting and creating, did that sort of take you back to a time where you didn't have children? That? Yes, yes. And I think the biggest thing that has to do with creating art is its flow. You need and you need time to get into that flow. And it's when you have you have kids at home, forget it, every few minutes, you're going to be interrupted. And that's you just can't have that flow. So when when my youngest started going into peaceful kindergarten, I had just more time and of course, I was very realistic, I was very lucky that I was able to stay at home with my kids and that I didn't have to have a job outside of the home, a paying job outside of the home. So I could actually do that and take some time. To myself and just schedule it. I had to schedule it like schedule a block of a couple of hours a week to make sure would happen because it's still busy. You know, you're doing all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Yeah, just because the children aren't there. It doesn't mean everything's that long and keeps on coming somehow. Yeah. That's why it's actually funny when you say about laundry. That's like the Bane I think every mother's existence, it just doesn't stop. And one day I was complaining about it to my own mom, and she said, You know, one day you're gonna miss doing their laundry. And I was like, Okay, mom. All right. Like, I could see that that was saying, you know, you grow up and you move out and we miss it. So I thought, right, I don't take it for granted. Like you're saying before, don't take things. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. It's okay. Yeah, I hear that too. From I remember people saying, well, one day you're gonna miss this man. Yeah, but I still am struggling right now. Exactly. You still got to do it deprived and still and I think it's okay. For moms who are hearing this are overwhelmed because I think all moms go through this stage, but they're just overwhelmed. And when somebody tells them one day, you're gonna miss it. So try to enjoy it and it's like, no, you're not listening to me. I'm overwhelmed. It's okay to feel overwhelmed and and don't feel guilty about it. It's it's part of the journey it's it's okay it's a lot raising kids is a lot especially in today's world it can be overwhelming Yeah. comes down to even like 20 years ago like very different worlds. Yeah, that's for sure. You briefly mentioned guilt there. I'd love to bring you to one of the topics that I chat to my mom's about on this show is mom guilt and I always put it in air quotes because I know it's it's contrived word that I feel like our our social media society has made this this special word hashtag mom guilt. Yeah. That you know that experience for you. How do you How can you sort of relate to that? That mum guilt. I have definitely had my my share of mom guilt a lot, actually. Especially when you have four different kids and some some kids just need more support than other kids and it's kids don't come with a manual for First of all, and when you really think about it, I think somebody wants told me that there are more parenting books than dieting books. And to me, that only tells you one thing, nobody has really figured it out yet either. Otherwise, there would be one book, and we'd all be reading it. And so nobody has figured it all out. We have to just keep learning as we go, you can read all the books you want before you have that baby, and you will never be prepared for what is to come. Once that baby is there, you never will be you. So you just do the best you can you figure it out. But in the meantime, we definitely go through things. I can't imagine any mom and sister in law, and like mom's figured it all out. But I think all moms go through guilt. You go to bed at night, and you're like, Why did I raise my voice? Why did I bite my tongue? Why did I say this? Why did I? Or should I should have done this or should have done that? I've done this. You're constantly doubting yourself, like wondering if you should have done this or that. And you just feel guilty? Like? Because you're not sure what to do? Because nobody? Well, nobody will tell you that's not really the right thing. Because we don't even well, sometimes we want people to tell us but on the other hand, one size does not fit all. It's a thing that I've been frustrated with before when you see titles of books. And it sounds like Oh 10 steps to raise and that begins or well adjusted kids. And for some foster kids who have well integrated brains, for example, the the like the sticker system or the reward system, you know, to get kids to maybe clean up their room and do their chores. For kids who have well integrated brains and rebalance, it works like a charm. It really does work well. But for kids who are not forget it, it's not that easy. And it's frustrating when when you have a child that is, you know, a little more complex. And I know there's a lot of moms out there who struggled with that, like, well, it doesn't work for my kid, or you need to have a lot more layers to that system of support, to have somewhat of an effect. But anyway, I kind of digress here, but back to mom guilt. So yeah, it's real because we feel we're not sure if we're doing the right thing. But when I had my awakening, instantly, it was gone, all the guilt was gone. All the guilt, it was gone, all the should haves could have they were gone, be saved did not matter at all. What mattered was what I realized, as I was showered with this incredible, unconditional love that washed away anything negative. Whether it was guilt. I mean, I felt forgiven, even though forgiveness wasn't even really needed, because we're not guilty. We we just it's not easy being a human being. It's that's just the reality that because we live in our mental world, and that's it gets very conflicted. There's a lot of conflict happening in our mental world. And then when he was in that state, the guilt was gone, because I knew, I knew with every fiber of my being that all I needed to do was the best I could and it was enough. We're here to learn to grow and to evolve as individual souls and also as a collective and, and bold influence. You know, we influence the collective and the collective influences. As it turns out, there's just no way around that. It's hand in hand. And he, yeah, I realized I had such a narrow perspective before that experience. And all of a sudden, my perspective was so big. And I realized we are not born a blank slate. You know, we carry the DNA of our ancestors. We are influenced by our culture, our families, our teachers, society. And then I also believe we we carry energies from possibly past lives. And that all of that merges into one, individual. And so now, as a parent, we are trying to guide children who come with, let's call it baggage. And some have some lighter baggage and others have navvy baggage. And we think we can fix it, we think we can, we're supposed to fix it, we think we're supposed to pull them up on that mountaintop. And it's like an uphill battle. Because we don't realize that we actually have very little control, we actually have, like, no control, we can control anybody else really not really. And the thing was, I was completely surrendering to whatever was happening. I was completely in the moment, the past was just not important at all, they would just the past was just stories that got me to where I was now. And anything that I've ever maybe felt bad about. It didn't matter, because their stories. And what mattered was now I experienced the pure moment of awareness, which is now which is really all we have, because the past is gone. And when you really think about it, the future hasn't happened, we really only have the present moment. And I live purely in the moment, I didn't worry any more about the future, because there is no use to be worrying about anything. Life just unfolds moment by moment. And I just surrendered. And I had this profound trust, that life just evolves, and unfolds mysteriously. And you don't have to understand at all, that was a big thing. You don't have to understand that though. Because you will never understand all of life, you will never understand this incredible masterpiece that we are part of the end, it was fine, I was fine with it. I just had this deep trust, that somehow life will unfold. And I will always continue to exist as a soul or whatever energy level. So I didn't have a worry in the world. And that lasted almost for a week. And it was just amazing. Oh, my problems are gone. It was it was yeah, the most incredible experience that I ever could have imagined. And to get back to the practice of wanting an answer. And throwing it out there into the universe. That Spiritual Awakening was an answer to my burning question. At the time, I had become very spiritual. And I was already was energized. I felt better about myself. But what happened was, I felt like a spiritual island in my family. I couldn't connect to my family because they were not all that spiritual. And I knew I couldn't just preach to them. Well, it's this is how it is. And because it was my truth, but it doesn't mean that it's the ultimate truth. But who knows, you know, nobody can prove anything. I can't prove God exists. And I can't prove God doesn't exist. You know, it's one of those things that you believe what you believe. And you know, what do you know? But I felt very kind of isolated. And one day I realized, I don't have to put up with that. There's got to be an answer. And so I threw it out in the US into the universe. And I I do this thing where I follow signs, you can read about it in the book. And one day I had this deeper awareness and I'm like, Okay, that's a sign I got to follow this lead. And it was leading me to a book and once I read this paragraph, it took me through this whole process, this mental process of kind of analyzing some things from my past. And also it got me into this awakening. And basically the answer to my question, how do I connect at a deeper levels, more spiritual, conscious level of my family? And it was unconditional love. It was complete acceptance of my family members. They're all flawed. We're all flawed. That that's the Oh only way we can learn and evolve. It's through our shortcomings to our flaws and the Nadeen flaws. They're just imperfections, because that comes with being a human being. And I loved my family unconditionally, I was showered with an unconditional love. And I can see, I was made whole. That was the whole thing was made whole, I felt complete. And I could see that everybody was holed. Also, I could see it in my family members, anybody who I would run into in the supermarket, like it's, it's a weird, I can't even describe it. But I knew and I could see David Hall, complete already at that soul level. But the problem is, we live in our mental world, where there's all this inner conflict and these judgments and these limiting beliefs of how we think we should live life the best way and all that. But it's so flawed in prisons as really, but it's part of the whole human journey. But that Awakening was an answer to this burning question. So you do get answers, you just need to be really eager to get the answer. So then, how did your relationships with your family change? They would have been able to notice the way that you know, Mum was now things are a bit different did that? How did that sort of go? i To be honest, I hardly even really talked about it. During those days, I talked a little bit to my husband about it bit by bit because I it was such a kind of shocking experience that like, well, not even shocking, it was actually something that I recognized like, I remembered the state of being I had just forgotten about and like, how did I forget that this is another way of being but anyway, I couldn't find the words to describe what had happened to me, it took me a long time to figure out how to talk about it, and how to write about it. But basically, what happened was, I approached my kids differently I saw because I saw motherhood through completely new lens. And the lens was our children are born with their own purpose. They have to find their own purpose, and they have their own inner compass. to guide them, I realized I have my own inner compass, it's our intuition. It's listening to that own your inner voice that will guide you to life because your soul knows what you love what you're fascinated with what and that leads you to your purpose, just follow the path of inspiration, and you will find your purpose in purposeful life. And our kids have the same and has nothing to do with us really. It's not the way I defined motherhood being a good mom was like I said, you have to check the boxes to make sure they get a good education and you just invest in your family, you give, give give. But what I had learned was we all are responsible for our own happiness, we have to find our own purpose too. And raising kids is part of our purpose. That often there's more, there's more, and I knew there was more for me. And it's our own inner compass that will guide us there. And I realized our kids have their own inner compass, even though we still have to guide them in life when they're young. They know what they want in this lifetime. It's it often gets covered up that they know what they're passionate about. If the opening is there, if you if you let them and it might not look like high school, college, whatever. Yeah. Every kid has to follow their own path. And what we have to let go of is feeling like if a kid doesn't follow that path, that we were not good parents. It is the biggest BS in the world. Our kids are meant to follow their own path. And it might look completely different than what you had in mind because what you had in mind is likely has to do with what you want for for them because then you can feel good about yourself that you did a good job. Yeah, all we really have to do is our very best and they will find their path in life. But it's important that we as parents also create our own fulfilling life if we don't feel fulfilled, if you feel completely fulfilled with raising your parents, fantastic. But if you feel something is missing, I highly encourage anyone figure out what it is and add it to your life. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I love that. So they would all be at the age where they would be aware that, you know, mums written a book mums put a book out mums or you know, published author. Yeah, how do they feel about that? They, it's kind of curious. They, they like it, they kind of accept it, or actually, for a while, because it took me six years to write it. Basically, I had, I had the funny thing is I had already started writing my book before I had this awakening, because I had done so much work, where I love myself to simply pursue what excited me. And I started thinking about, Gosh, I want to write a book, I want to integrate all these wonderful ideas about spirituality and psychology that I get from all these different books, and integrate it into my own book, and then write about my own experiences and insights and whatever. So then after you know, my ego, shut it down many times, like you're not going to write a book, forget about it, who do you think you are, you're going to be a failure, you'll never succeed. You know, one morning, I had a deeper awareness, and I knew you are going to write this book, this is what you're supposed to do. So we started slowly figuring out what I wanted to write about. And then a year later, I had the spiritual awakening. And for a while I thought there is no way I'm going to write about this, forget about it, there is no way I'm going to stick to what I wanted to write about in my book, and forget about it. This is impossible. People will think I'm crazy if I write about this stuff. And lo and behold, of course, I started realizing no, you need to find the courage to, to write about it. So the whole process basically was six years, so much of my youngest kids life is like mom is writing a book mom is writing. They were waiting and waiting. And finally the book is published and this and that. And it's kind of interesting, because we have a lot of families in our neighborhood. And then just the other day, my 13 year old, came home and she said yeah, a friend of mine. She said, Yeah, her mom had to read your book. And she really liked it and like, Oh, that's great. You know, like, it's kind of weird. It's like in our community and and yeah, so yeah, they like they just now think it's normal that Mom Mom wrote a book and doing a podcast and now she's got an audio book coming out and she's getting into life coaching which is really my passion. So yeah, it's interesting definitely. Is it important for you personally, for them to see that you're not just a mum, you're not just you don't just exist exist for them. You're capable your own passions and, you know, achievements. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And what I what I realized during that awakening, and that's what I how I approach my kids now, like, you really have to sense what are you interested in? And listen to that. No. Yeah, we have a responsibility for ourselves and our kids one day when you know, they're adults, too. You do need to find actually take care of yourself. So, you know, if something is a hobby, and you know, it's not gonna make money, it might have to stay a hobby for a while you figure out how to, you know, pay the bills. And then over time, maybe you can see how you can make a living, you know. But it's very important to, to listen to that voice. And also, if you haven't figured it out yet, which is very common for 1618 year olds, like I want to do, you just trust you keep moving forward and trust, you will figure it out, you will keep trusting, just keep moving forward and just relax, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. It's very important. Yeah, that that kids see that mom is not just mom, especially, I think, with having three daughters. If they ever want to have their own children, I think it's important that they will allow themselves also to not just be mom. And to figure out they're more than just mom. They're whatever they want to be however they want to feel that in. And it doesn't mean it takes away from being the best mom, you want to be. I think it adds I think it makes you even well, it makes you happier mom, you might not spend as much time like I spent time away from my kids, but they're older now. So it is easier, they're very independent. But I don't feel bad about it. Because I know it's good for them to spend time on their own figuring things out on their own. And I still spent plenty of time with them. And unhappier mom for it, and more fulfilled, and therefore also renewing more fulfilled as a parent, you actually give your kids a little more space to figure it out also, on their own. And I think it also shows that, you know, we're all responsible for our unhappiness, nobody can make you happy, you can't make your kids happy. You can make a happy for a day doing something fun. But do happiness, it really does come from within itself, fulfillment and purpose and meaning and only we ourselves can configure that out. Yeah, that is so true, isn't it? When you said before about kids not knowing what they want to do. I feel like over here anyway. The kids like my son, my oldest is 14. And they're already, you know, trying to decide the pathways for their, you know, their education for the job they want to do. And it's like, how can you possibly know at that age, what you want to do for the rest of your life, that is just an unreasonable thing to put on anyone. And I say to my son, you know, I've found my dream job when I was 35. You know, there's never, you're never gonna run out of time, you know, you're gonna go through experience in life, and maybe the thing you think you want to do, you start doing it and go, actually, this is not what I thought change to something else. So that, you know, there's there's no pressure to decide right this second. And that's something I'd love to see sort of change in schooling. I really think we need to have a cultural shift, Big time, big time and education, I see some of the shifts happening already. Because there's so many parents who say, we need to bring back the trades. You know, we're like, for so long, we have been preparing all these kids for higher education. But not all kids want to do higher education, they want to work with their hands, they don't, they don't want to dive into all these, these books and read and they're not all kids are meant to do that. And we have to change as a society really, and and put the same value on on a trades education and a four year college degree. Really, that's what's got to shift. And we also tell our kids that just keep moving forward, make the best decision at that moment. And just know that allow yourself to change your mind if there's a gift you can give yourself is to allow yourself to change course. If you get stuck like well, I want to be let's say I want to be a doctor and from a young age on and then you get older and you realize the reality of it is not really what do you want to do but now you've kind of painted yourself in a corner like I have told everybody for years, I want to be a doctor and then it becomes so hard to acknowledge you want to do something else because now you have to do maybe with family that's like but he was wanting to be a doctor. No, you want to be something else. So we tell our kids always be open minded and allow yourself to change course if you really feel this is not the right direction anymore. You know, and I do think it's just need more time. And they need to have more fun too. And more hands on classes. Yeah, they gotta bring the trades back into the classroom. You know, it's sorry that I'm seeing that shift a bit, but it needs to happen more. That's the thing. Like, you're always going to need someone to fix your roof or, you know, carpentry, you're always going to need people to create with the hands, you know, someone's got the toilet or Yeah, so yeah, that is a great saying some one of the ladies I had on my podcast said, we can't all be astronauts, we have to have a balance in life. Yeah, it's bad knowledge, and I've always found it fascinating. You say you're talking about how it's a different time for the kids. But then the parents like it's really hard to parent children at the moment. Because most of us depending on our age, we didn't have social media, when we were growing up. So it's like, how do you navigate that when you've had absolutely no experience of what it's like to be a teenager? And have that whole new world that you're dealing with? So I think that's something that's, it's really challenging for a lot of parents at the moment. And yeah, I'm so glad I didn't grow up with thank God. It's just a whole, just a whole extra thing you'd have to be worried about all the time. Like life was so simple. When I think back to my childhood and my teenage years. Absolutely, yeah, I think it's, it's a very challenging time for parents to be raising kids. Life, just even just just for adults, life has become so full and fast, are nervous, as soon as actually not wired to process so much information from the 24 hour news cycle, to social media, to all the emails. I always think our parents didn't get all those emails from the schools, you know, from teachers, from the principal, from, you know, the PTA and the fundraisers, and everything that comes our way, we have to process and it is so much more intense. And that's just for the parent. And now we have to manage our children and social media, and doing homework on their computers that we can't watch every second that they're on a computer, like how do we guide I will keep them safe. It's stressful. It's a lot. And we're the first generation of parents that has to figure this out. Our kids were guinea pigs. Yeah, really? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's still developing exponentially. All the apps and all the ways that they can figure out how to get online and we won't even know about it. Yeah. And so it's, yeah, some, I don't know, ever thought that social media was a good idea for for middle schoolers. I don't know, but that it's not. Talking about your coaching that you do now, do you want to just share a little bit about that with this, if you know anyone's listening that thinks that this is something that they'd you know, benefit from? Can you share a little bit about what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Yes, thanks. There's just so many moms who kind of feel stuck and it often has to do with that guilt again, they they feel guilty for not being happy because their lives are good this and that. They feel guilty if they even think about taking some time to themselves, or or pursuing something. And what I do is making people aware of all their beliefs that are tied to what it means to be a mom and kind of waking up to how they're thinking and sometimes it has to do with the culture they grew up in. Like, I remember one mom who I think Her background was Vietnamese. And she said, In my culture, the family comes first always you always give to the family, the family is the center, you give, give, give. So it, it just was conflicting with her wanting to have time to herself to pursue something. She didn't even know what it was. But she said, like, I gotta make a change, because I just, I'm just so stressed and whatever, I'm just not not happy. And I know there's she had a few ideas of what she wanted to do, but she just struggled with the guilt. And once we started talking about a different perspective, like, well, how are you now when your kids need you? When your husband needs you? Are you just happy to, you know, be there for them? Or are you like, oh, my gosh, what do they need? Now? What is it now? You know, it's like, the last I'm always like, Oh, my gosh, I never have time to myself. So I told her, Well, what if we reframe it, and you set aside some time for yourself, and then be inspired and enjoy, really be in it and enjoy what you do, guess what's gonna happen. Then when you're present with your family, you're much more present. And then you don't feel so drained. Because you know, every week, you've got this time for yourself. And it's coming every week, and you do what you love. And you keep pursuing different things that maybe it'll shift over time. And then you can just be there for your family even more and more present and more positive. And once you started seeing that, she's like, Oh, no, I get it. Okay. Okay, that's compatible, okay. I can still, like, honor my culture, and honor what I need, you know, so it's always about finding the right perspective. That is healing, because we're often just not seeing it. Right. You know, because we have ideas and beliefs and limits, limiting thoughts. It's about uncovering those. And I, yeah, that's definitely passionate mind to help moms find the right perspective, and then help them pursue what they want to pursue. Yeah, that's wonderful. Good for you. That is just Yeah, it's really wonderful that you can pass that gift on for the, you know, that amazing experience that you've had, and then you can, you know, help so many other moms and, and then that helps, you know, it goes down the line. Like you said, before, we're all connected. Yeah, no, it's further, because I had to change my perspective. I felt guilty taking time. So I know what these moms are going through. So I know, and I know how hard it is to change your perspective. And to break these patterns. I know how hard it is. But I also know the rewards are incredible, not just for yourself, but for your whole family, your whole family will benefit once you become happier. everybody around you is going to feel it. And also another thing when mom is happy, kids feel it. And now, they don't have to feel any responsibility to like, make mom happy. Some kids are sensitive that way. Yeah, they feel kind of responsible. And they don't have to worry about mom anymore, too. I've heard about that, too. Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's always it's all good. You know, life might shift. Things might change. But it's always the fear of the change that holds us in place, but gradually integrate the changes. It can be so powerful. Absolutely. It's just it's finding that balance, isn't it? Like your your example of your client? You know, she's honoring what's important to her culturally, but then she's also honoring herself, which is so important. Yeah. Yeah. And getting that balance, right. And that'll be different for every single person. Exactly. That's the whole journey. But I do believe there's always a way in which we can gently integrate some changes. You don't have to make massive changes right away. You know, for some people, that's why they do or they quit their job and this and that, but most people can't do that. So I've done the way I've made it changes was gently integrating all the little changes over time and then, you know, you look back and it's it's a big shift, ultimately. Yeah, that's it. All these little, little tiny things add up to this massive, massive effect over time. Yeah. And then that makes it less daunting. Like you talk fear. Fear certainly holds us back, you know that. Oh, no, what if this doesn't happen or if this doesn't work, or you know, the what ifs that like you were talking before about, you know, we jump forward, we think about the future. But, you know, the only time we really have is, is the present. And there's, there's really no point in jumping forward. And we really only have now and, and what I also realized is, even though we want to make changes on the outside, like, we want to do something, do a hobby or start something, whatever it is, the shift always has to happen mentally, we have to shift our thinking. And sometimes it's a tiny little shift with our thinking. And you know, but then it starts to show on the outside and just a tiny little mental shift is huge, energetically you feel it, and then the world around, you starts to respond differently. It's a fascinating process, I've experienced it, all of a sudden, you need different people, you find yourself in different situations that actually support what you want to do. And it just opens everything up with just tiny little changes that you're making, basically, mentally, it's the mental shifts that you create, and then it starts showing up in your outfit and out for you know, in your world. Absolutely, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. Danielle, it's been so lovely to talk to you this. Wonderful, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you. Yeah, absolutely. I'll put the links for people to get in touch with you in the show notes. But do you have a website or somewhere you'd like to direct people to head to if they'd like to know more? Yes, the easiest one is inner compass. living.com. So inner compass living.com. And they can also reach me at inner compass. living@gmail.com . And if people want to know when my audiobook is coming out, it should be late April, early May. They can sign up for my newsletter that's on the website, and then they'll get my newsletters and a blog and whatever, they'll they'll be in the loop on the latest. So inner compass living.com Fantastic. Oh, wonderful. Look, good luck with it all. And I'm Yeah, excited to, to check out the audio book to because I mean, obviously I've read it on the page. But I think when you hear the person that wrote it, reading, it just adds a completely different dimension to it, you know? So yeah, I'll be excited to check that out, too. Yeah,

Zach Mander Australian comedian + announcer S4Ep103 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In the second of my Father's Day special podcast episodes. I welcome Zach Mander, a comedian, radio announcer and father of 2 from Brisbane Australia. Zach has hosted national radio shows on stations such as 2Day FM and FOX FM and specialises in clever and offbeat content. He is the self proclaimed 'Bluey detective delving in to the much loved Aussie kids show and providing witty observations. If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission thanks to my APRA AMCOS mini online license. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes .....

Gina Graham US photographer + social worker S2 Ep77 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** Gina - website / instagram / buy her book Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler. How mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. In this final regular episode for the year I welcome Gina Graham to the podcast. Gina is a clinical social worker and a photographer based in Chicago USA and a mother of 2 boys. Growing up Gina was inspired by her photographer dad to experiment with taking photos, but didn't think that she could do it seriously. She dabbled with it in high school and fell in love with it, but put it aside to pursue a career in mental health . Gina studied and became a certified clinical social worker and specialised in treating patients with eating disorders and disordered eating. During a break from her clinical work after having her children Gina rediscovered her love for photography. Her style is very natural, soulful, emotive and raw. When it came time for her to return to her 'day job' she was looking for a way to blend her two passions, she wanted her photography to be a real and true representation and celebration of the unique and diverse feminine beauty in the world. Her two passions collided in her recent book Body Beautiful: How Changing the Conversation About Our Bodies Has the Power to Change the World which is a collection of conversations and photos of women and girls, around the topic of body image and self acceptance. ***This episode contains discussion around body image, diet culture + eating disorders.*** If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. thank you so much for coming on, Gina. It's absolute pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me out. And I'm excited to be here. Yeah, it's my pleasure. So you're in the United States in Chicago. Is that right? I am. I am. I'm actually in the suburb of Chicago. Yeah. So totally different day than your night actually, in your Yeah, well, in the next day at this point, so. Oh, it's cool. It's one of the fun things about doing these podcasts is talking to people from all around the world. It's just, I love knowing about what time it is and what your worth is, like. That's like, the two things that I find really fascinating. Right, right. Right. Well, our weather actually, we just finished up the most gorgeous fall, I think in the history of, you know, on record, it was like the most stunning beautiful change of colors. We had amazing warm temperatures. I mean, we were really very spoiled. And then you know, the frost always comes eventually. So we're definitely kind of hitting our cold time of year and it'll be it's you know, the temperatures have dropped and it'll stay cold in Chicago most likely until well into spring. So we're kind of hunkering down and getting out our winter coats and know that we you know, got away with longer weather much longer than we typically do so yeah, do you guys get snowed in um yeah we do we do we get a good bit of snow and we also get you know, typically in January and February like really brutal cold temperatures you know, high winds brutal cold you're probably are you on Celsius? Yeah with Celsius but like Yeah, yeah, I know we sometimes get temperatures that are you know, like single digits and Fahrenheit. So you're gonna be like, You know what in the in the negatives and we can even have wind chills below you know, below zero and Fahrenheit, which is really cool. Yeah, like minus 17. That is in Celsius. Yeah, that sounds Holy moly. Yeah, it gets it gets brutal. Gosh, we're already sometimes grumpy bunch that time of year I always tell friends you know, friends and family that live all around the country and in other in other parts of the world like Chicago is a great city to come visit but you may not want to come in January or February. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's see I went when it gets wet our daytime here in winters probably. Hang on. I'm gonna say 13 Celsius. But what would that be for you guys? Probably like mid 40s. Right? Hanging? Fahrenheit? Yes, I 55 Roughly. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm whinge about that being cold. But I can clearly have nothing to do I think I would do well. I think I would do well in Australia. I think that sounds about right. Like once you get below 55. Why? Why go outside? That sounds about right. Yeah. Why I chose to live here is a whole long other funny story. But yeah. Good times, hey. So you're a clinical social worker, and also a photographer. So I, what sort of came first for you? What was the interest that grabbed you sort of first? Yeah. So that it's a it's a really great question. Because I would have to say that photography grabbed me first, when I was in high school, I actually, my dad, back in the 80s, actually, you know, did a lot of photography. So he was always kind of lugging his Nikon in his tripod, and, sorry, I have a dog that has to be by my side at all times. Hear him barking or whatever he is, he does not leave my side. So So anyway, my Dad Yeah, just was always doing photography when I was a kid. And I was kind of exposed to all of that. And then when I was in high school, I did take a photography class, and I just really fell in love with it. And it's interesting, because I think, you know, looking back on it now, you know, my, my teacher was very complimentary about, you know, just kind of the natural composition and kind of my eye for photography. But I think I just always thought maybe creative endeavors weren't really my thing. I have an a brother, who's one year older, who is an incredibly creative person. And so I think I always thought he was like the creative one in the family. Like there's only allowed to be one and it was him and so it couldn't be me and I had to find something else. So as much as I loved it at that time, it kind of fell by the wayside even though I was always the girl at the party that was like, you know, taking pictures on my camera at the time and And, you know, spent some time doing photography, but not really, even in college did some but, but not really seriously until later. So I actually, you know, had kind of some experiences that led me to, you know, the mental health world at an early and an earlier time in my life. And I just was so kind of blown away by the transformational kind of capacity and experience that can be therapy for people in mental health. And I kind of took a few different roads, when I was in college trying to decide, you know, what my major was going to be bounced around a little bit, and then settled on being kind of in the space of physical education and wellness and health, and then kind of stumbled into mental health and clinical psychology from there. So, in 2002, I graduated with my master's degree and as a licensed clinical social worker, and I've been doing clinical social work ever since then. So. So that was definitely, you know, kind of became my bread and butter career, you know, as a young adult very early on. And, and I've, and I've, you know, I took a short break, when my kids were kind of growing up for a couple years, I stepped away from a practice that I was in, but for the most part, I've been doing that ever since. And photography is kind of, then had a fun resurgence in my life a little bit later, which was kind of an exciting rediscovery of that medium. Hmm. Can you tell us a bit of how that did happen? How that sort of came back in? Yeah, yeah. So I was kind of, you know, like I said, I had taken a little bit of a break, when my kids were babies, I was kind of trying to juggle, you know, like life as a mom working in a very clinical, you know, very kind of demanding field at the time, I was in private practice work. And, you know, so it was just kind of me servicing these clients that had a lot of needs. And you know, it was a pretty high risk population, I've always worked, treating the field of eating disorders, and you can have a lot of medical complications and a lot of extra things, you kind of have to kind of keep tabs on from a medical perspective. And so I was juggling a lot at that time when my babies were small, and, you know, was just kind of increasingly able to work less and less because of difficulty with finding the right childcare. And, you know, my husband works in a job where he travels a bit and you know, commutes into the city, and sometimes it's gone long hours. And so, you know, it became obvious to me that, I just kind of felt ready to take a little break, I felt ready to kind of be home a little more and not try to do that juggle. So I was, you know, fortunate enough to be able to take a couple years, and step away from that work. And in that time, I was loving being a mom. But I think I kind of had a combination of, you know, just all of the emotions that gets stirred up when you're a mom, and you're raising kids and wanting to capture it and seeing how fast it goes. And then I think I just kind of started to get really curious about, you know, it's like, I think the expression is like the date, the years are short, but the days are long. And I had some like long days at home with two very active young boys. And I just kind of got curious about what I was interested in, that could be a part of that day, that could also be kind of meaningful. And so I decided to get a camera and just kind of, you know, play around a little bit, I kind of just point and shoot camera. And every time I would try to take pictures on my boys, everything was blurry, and I just couldn't get an image that I liked. And so I thought, you know, what, I'm going to just kind of get an official, you know, digital camera, and kind of teach myself how to use it so that I'm not always frustrated with the pictures that I'm getting. So you know, in that time, I just kind of started to explore it kind of really retaught myself the things that I learned about, you know, the basics of photography when I was in high school, except at that time, it was film and I was, you know, rolling film in the dark and learning that medium, that type of photography, and I had to kind of relearn how to, you know, be a digital photographer and the digital age. So, you know, it was just a lot of trial and error and playing around and getting excited when I started doing things that I thought, you know, were fun to look at or meaningful for me. And then over time, had friends kind of start to notice or other people would say, Oh, would you just come over and quickly take a picture of like, you know us for our Christmas card, and then it kind of turned into this sort of side hustle family photography gig that I never in a million years would have thought I was doing while I was on hiatus from this very clinical demanding kind of mental health role. So it was a really odd time for me because I was really all of a sudden introduced to this whole side of myself that I not only never knew that I had but was actually convinced that I didn't have and so it actually was really meaningful and beautiful in a lot of ways because I got to all of a sudden kind of blossom in an area of my life that now I just can't imagine not, you know, being a photographer and seeing the world the way that I've kind of taught myself to see the world. So, um, yeah, so that's so the photography kind of got rolled into all of it, then, you know, that's a great story. I'm glad you came back to it. Thank you with your photography, how would you describe the style of photos that you like to take? Yeah, um, I think that over time, um, I would say I definitely really wanted my photography to be emotive, I wanted people to look at a photo and, you know, feel something, I wanted it to sometimes be maybe even like, a little bit like raw or true to real life. And, you know, I kind of always felt like, if people kind of came away from something feeling like, you know, a photoshoot that I did in any way sort of offered a little glimpse into their soul or made them feel something in their soul, like the word soulful, just kind of kept coming up, when I wouldn't think about the type of work that I always aspire to me, right. Whether or not I land on that is a different story. But it's definitely always in my mind that, you know, something emotive. And, and I think that's, you know, kind of where I've landed in terms of photographing women, you know, I was doing some family photography for a while and sort of was doing a little bit of everything, right? Like, hey, you need headshots, I'll do it, you need family photos for a Christmas card, I'll do it you need, you know, pictures of your new baby, I'll do it. And so I was kind of like the jack of all trades photographer, which I think a lot of photographers start out doing that. But you know, I started to feel this tug, and this pole to go back into my clinical practice at the time. And so I was just kind of trying to figure out, you know, how do I juggle it all? I can't, the reality is that I can't. So how do I take the work that I love to do in the world, which is, you know, working with young girls and women and helping people recover from, you know, eating disorders, and body image and self competence and self esteem issues? And how do I also kind of have my photography still be a part of my life. And so, you know, I think I've kind of definitely moved towards blending the two of them together. You know, we can talk a little bit about the book that I published earlier this year, that is definitely kind of a blending of all of the things that I've done up to this point in my life. But I think I finally kind of came into this realization that I wanted my photography to really be a real and true representation of, you know, and celebration of the unique and diverse, feminine beauty that is in the world all around us all the time, that is each and every one of us, right. And so, you know, it became really important for me to not be photoshopping bodies, or having people look overly perfect. I just kind of wanted it to be real girls, real women just being themselves and for people to kind of look at those images and say, Gosh, that's so beautiful. And don't they have all of their own unique kind of ways of manifesting beauty in the world? So, yeah, I'd love that. Because, yes, there's a whole a whole element of particularly on social media these days that says that we have to be a certain size and look a certain way before we can be deemed and I'm putting air quotes beautiful. Yeah, that's something that you're really passionate about. Yeah, yeah, that's what a lot of my work has really been. I think, you know, when you look at my clinical practice working within the field of eating disorders, it's an incredibly complex mental health issue. And I think part of what you know, is hard about it, is this this reality that, you know, I think we can kind of think, oh, it's, you know, just kind of predominantly young, white affluent girls that want to be thin for social media or for their appearance sake, that end up having eating disorders, and that's not true. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But what we do know in terms of how the eating disorder pathology really can take root is that, you know, body image can be a huge trigger for that. And I think even outside of having a clinical eating disorder or disordered eating or eating issues, the React alidium, unfortunately, is that most girls and women who have been raised in sort of, you know, kind of modern cultures where we have any type of advertising media, you know, products that are sold to us marketing, social media, you know, most of us are walking around, just no matter how we look, no matter how much we weigh, no matter how, what are ages, you know, most of us are walking around, just not feeling beautiful, not feeling good enough feeling like there's something wrong with us or our bodies are things that we wish we could change. And, you know, having spent the better part of 20 years working with people who feel that way. But seeing all of their gifts and strengths and talents and things that they're doing in the world, and then not being able to kind of reconcile those things, it just always really broke my heart. And I thought, gosh, if I can just, you know, put a drop in the bucket of, you know, girls and women's seeing themselves more, you know, in a way that celebrates who they really are, and kind of try to have this conversation about why are we all buying into this culture that convinces us of all of these things that just simply are tearing us down and not having us, you know, feeling like we're, you know, comfortable living in our own skin? So you mentioned your book there. So you bought your book came out recently? And can you tell us or I can read the title, it's called body beautiful, how changing the conversation about our bodies has the power to change the world? Tell us about it. Yeah, so So the book really came about because, you know, like I said, I've got this clinical background, I've been doing this for a long time. And everyone that comes to see me their story is also unique. And everything that you know, that they kind of bring to the table has their own kind of personal struggle, too. But I found over the years in doing this work, there were there were kind of themes in tools and discussion points that I was hitting on time and time again, right, with girls and women around this issue. And so I kind of felt after 20 years of doing this, like I had a couple of things, maybe just share a couple of things that might hopefully be helpful, right? I mean, that's the beauty of being at something for so long, and hopefully accruing some type of knowledge base that you can hopefully share. And I really felt called to do that. I think, you know, one of the things that's started to get really exciting for me in my photography work was the fact that I could bring clients in that trusted me and knew me. And I could say, let's do a fun portrait session, and I'm going to show you that you're not as big as you think you are, you're not as ugly as you think you are, you're actually beautiful, and you actually, you know, have so many unique and special qualities that you can focus on instead of all of those perceived flaws that you're looking at in the mirror. So I would bring clients into my office, we would do a photo shoot. And then we would in therapy, go through the images together and talk about what they were seeing and have an experience of them. And then they could kind of take the images as a tool to remind themselves later of how they felt in doing that work, or what they have learned from those sessions. And I really just loved from a photography and artistic creative standpoint, the idea as a photographer of putting someone just one individual in the frame and capturing, you know, the real beauty to that person. And so the whole book project kind of started out because, you know, it was COVID at the time, and I was really, really busy with my clinical practice, you know, in the, in the States, as I'm sure you know, all around the world that need for mental health services just skyrocketed, and we were all just kind of home. So I was home, you know, seeing servicing quite a few more clients than I typically would on my caseload, and just in front of the computer on Zoom meetings all day long. And, you know, no one was hiring me for photography. And I was really missing my photography work, I was really missing the work that I do as a creative person in that space in my life. And I just kind of got this idea of you know, I love coffee table books, and I love art books, and I love anything that is kind of like a photo book. And so I thought, well, what if I just put together a book of images of just as many girls and women that I can photograph and, you know, maybe I would like throw in some quotes and make it really artsy. And it was really important for me that the book itself be kind of like art, right? is a testament to like, aren't we all our own unique version of art, like, you know, and so I have this like really kind of creative, artistic way that I even just wanted the book to be represented. And, you know, and so I would kind of talk to all of these girls and women that I was photographing, and I would say, Hey, listen, I'm primarily going to take Your photograph for this book that I'm doing, but in order to really get some like quotes and kind of have us both feel uncomfortable about what we're doing, I just want to ask you some questions about your relationship to your body, or your body image, or what do you think about the cultural pressures for girls and women, and they would sit down and tell me like an hour, or twos worth of a story. And, and there would be tears. And there would be so much that came out of these girls and women that I was so blown away at what they were telling me just freely needing to talk about with this. And I was recording those conversations hoping to get like a quote, right, yeah. And I came away from it, like, wow, I have like this whole story of this person. And yes, I have photographs of them. But the things that they would say I felt were so relatable, or so empowering, or so inspiring or impactful that I was like, gosh, this is what this book really needs to be about. So the whole project really took a pivot, and it became kind of a collection of art, and stories and quotes and information. And I do share some things about navigating the world with, you know, hopefully navigating with better body image and some things to think about, or some, you know, kind of some tips and some things I've learned over the years and during the work that I do, but it really is designed to be written not necessarily even by me, but by all of these brave and courageous women that shared with me, their experience of living in their bodies, in the hopes that no matter where someone's living, in what culture in what body size, and what, at what age, there's something there that they might be able to think about their own experience, because the book is really designed to kind of go through the lifespan, you know, as we get older, and our bodies change, and we age are all kinds of things are happening to our bodies that we have to navigate. And, you know, this issue of body image, or how we feel in our skin doesn't go away after a certain age. And, you know, I would talk to women who were in their 60s and 70s, you know, who were struggling with, the way that they looked or their bodies or their aging bodies. And, you know, I just thought it was really important to tell that story so that we could all kind of just start to get curious and ask ourselves like, Okay, what does this mean for me? And how am I doing with this issue? And what still impacts me? And is there anything I could start to take like little baby steps towards changing my relationship with myself and my body? And is there anything I can do? Maybe to change this conversation culturally? Is there anything I can do maybe to be a role model to younger generations of girls and women, whether I'm a mom or an aunt, or you know, a family friend of a young girl or whatever, just to kind of have everyone questioning? You know, what does it mean for them personally to be living in their bodies in our culture? And what could they do to hopefully feel a little more at home in their own skin? Huh? Yeah. And I mean, I don't want without giving away too many secrets in your book. What are some ways we can start to do that? Yeah, yeah, it's such a great question. I think first and foremost, I think we have to just kind of create some awareness for ourselves of like, where did we learn this? Right? What are the seeds that were kind of planted that took root for to this belief system that I do not live in a body that is good enough, or I need to change and I think everybody kind of has this mix of, you know, things that they've been handed by culture, and things that they've been handed by their family of origin or their story growing up, you know, whether it was being teased or being bullied. So I think some of it is kind of just really starting to parcel out, what were those influences? And what do you think about that? Now, you know, I think I think people can kind of really start to ask the question of, okay, culture handed me all of these ideals and beliefs and shoulds, and rules and thoughts and pictures and images. But do I actually agree with that? Do I actually accept that is that something that I would want for my daughter, or, you know, someone that I love and care about? Is that the same expectation that I put on my friend? I think really trying to find little ways of standing up to diet culture is really important. I think there's a lot of chatter, you know, about just kind of all of this stuff that we've come to accept as part of our life and diet culture, right. Like we talk about our but we women sit around and we talk about our bodies, we talk about what we're eating, we talk about what we don't like, and we talk about what diets we're on and we talk about what exercise we're doing, and we talk about whose bodies we think are better than ours and we're so self deprecating and I just want us to just if nothing else, stop ourselves from having those conversations. You know, out and kind of start to think, Wow, this is not really positive or empowering for me to be talking this way about my body. And it's probably not helping the people that I'm talking to feel better about their bodies, and anyone that's overhearing it probably might also not feel good about their bodies, right. So, you know, the whole, the whole. The whole, like, genesis of the book really kind of came from the fact that I was at this photography conference, and I was having the most amazing weekend, the most amazing, I was so inspired. I was on cloud nine, I was thinking all these creative thoughts, and I was in this quiet, you know, cafe in the morning, and these two women came in with the only other two women in the in the room at the time, they were having this really, you know, kind of toxic, nasty conversation about their bodies at the table next to me. And we were the only ones in the whole place. And so I kind of heard the whole thing. I was like, Oh, bummer to hear that. Right? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Why do we do this? Yeah, yeah. Can we start? Yeah, it seems when you say that it reminds me of a conversation, I've got some people, some people that I know in my life. So I'd say we're in my life, but they are at the moment, doing challenges, like for the gym, to only eat a certain amount of calories, and they have to exercise this much. And when they talk about it, I just have to switch off because I came through a period where I worked in a gym and went through in, you know, treating my body not very well not eating properly. And so that's very triggering for me. But now, and but it actually also makes me want to say to him, why bother? Because if you're treating yourself like this limiting, restricting yourself for eight weeks, in eight weeks time, you're gonna go back to how you were and then you're going to get cross with yourself, because we can't sustain that. You know, and that's very toxic. The gym is an incredibly toxic environment. Yeah. And so when they talk about it now, I just think, Oh, God, gills, like, I want to say to them, like, like one of them said to me the other day, how many calories do you think's in a mandarin? You probably say Mandarin over there. And it was like, who cares? Like it's a piece of fruit like, this is where people's heads are at. And it just, I think that's how I used to be I used to have my little app, and I'll be counting calories. And I'd be out for tea. When I when we didn't have smartphones. I didn't, I was just a normal phone. And I had to message my husband and say, Can you look up on this calorie app, which dessert has the least calories so I can choose which one to have, you know, that incredible culture of not just enjoying yourself, but being so so preoccupied with it. And it's a horrible place to be it really it? It is a horrible place to be. And I think so many girls and women are tortured by this way of life in and I use that word very intentionally. You know, and, and I am not against health. I am very clear in the book, you know, I actually interview and talk to a health expert who had her own really incredible story of like, kind of like crushing it at the gym, right? Like she was like the most successful person at the gym, because like on paper and her weight and her weight loss and her metrics and what she was lifting and what she was eating. She was like crushing it. And everybody was like just putting her up on this pedestal. Meanwhile, she was depleted, she was in adrenal fatigue, she was miserable. She was hungry all the time. She was exhausted. Yeah, right. And so you know, I make it really very clear to anyone who was listening and who, you know, gives a fig about what I have to say that I think health is incredibly important. And so when you kind of look at that example, it's like, no, we actually need to be eating more fruits and vegetables. So if you're eating a fruit, let's kind of first of all, like, let's talk about do you have, you know, like, like, do you get enough of the right behaviors to promote health and wellness? And if you're making healthy choices, your body's going to go where it naturally is designed to go at that stage in your life? You know, given all of the other factors and can we be okay with it? Because it's actually a far more freeing enjoyable place to live. Like, I think if you were to ask most women, here's all the list of desserts, which one is the least calorie? Like and then to ask them, Is that also the one that you would enjoy? Or is that the one you actually want? Most? saying no. Right? Yeah. Honestly, like, I'm 46 years old. I don't know where it's going. I feel like I should still be 27 like life is moving. It's too short, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think we all kind of have these reminders, if we're looking for them that like, hey, life is short. It's okay. It's also hard. like Life is short, and it's hard. So can you give yourself a break, and let yourself enjoy the dessert that you want to enjoy. You don't have to eat all of it. If your body's telling you, if you're eating intuitively, you might not even want all of it, or slowing down and being mindful and eating intuitively, you might get halfway through that desert and say, I'm actually full. And I really enjoyed that. Right? Um, or you might eat it on say, That was lovely, and then move on with your life. Right? Yeah. And I think I think the diet culture will tell you, if you do that, you're going to be so overweight, you're going to be so unhealthy and all these terrible things are going to happen. And the reality is diet culture kind of sets us up for the opposite, right? deprivation, deprivation, deprivation, to your point, things we can't maintain and sustain. And then we drop it. And then we don't persist in asking ourselves like, what are the health promoting behaviors that might actually get me closer to where I want to be? Right. So from a medical standpoint, we mess up our metabolism. So that's why most diets fail metabolically, we throw ourselves you know, this you worked in gym you Oh, you know, like, we throw our saw our bodies into chaos and disarray, because we're not taking care of it. But culture was a Oh, good job, you lost weight. You said, I lost it by being miserable, and depriving myself and it's going to come back on because I'm not changing my behaviors. I'm focusing on the number. Right, yeah, it's that external validation. Like you said about that lady. That was she was the best at the gym and going awesome. It looks great from the outside. But yeah, the inside wasn't going so great. And I think that's yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening that can relate to this. Because there's, I feel like, at the moment, there's a really big movement on social media to destroy this dark culture and to change the way that we think about food. And I don't know, the other day, so we're recording this in the middle of November, the heroin chic sort of things, this through the media now. It's like, oh, really, are we really going to go there? Again, like these people that don't eat, they have like cigarettes for lunch? And, you know, to look a certain way, because one particular industry wants, you know, them to, like, it's just so damaging. I know. And that actually, I mean, look, I I've been doing this for a lot of years. And I mean, I came up in that generation. So I'm very familiar with that body type in that messaging. And not a lot shocks me, I have to say when it comes to the things that we see in media, but that actually took my breath away for a minute when I was seeing that there was a particular publication that had posted, you know, this article that was saying, like, curves are dead and heroin chic is back. And I thought, you know, I actually had a couple of people messaged me, because I reposted kind of in shock and horror and outrage, and I had a couple of people messaged me, like, is that even real? And I'm thinking I agree, right? Like, in this day and age did did a journalist in a in a fairly sizable publication, actually, seriously post that I mean, in the midst of the opioid crisis that we're having, right. And in the midst of, you know, everything that we are really coming to understand about the importance of size, inclusion and diversity and all of the things that we've been working so hard for, are we now going to have a couple of news outlets post a trend about heroin chic for our bodies and get it like status back and I just was like, heartbroken. So yeah. If anything, it just kind of galvanized me even more about this book, and the messaging behind it. And the work that I do with my photography to say, you know, enough is enough, enough is enough. You know, because eating disorders, you know, outside of, you know, suicide do have the highest mortality rate of psychiatric illnesses and they are very dangerous and I think just even outside of that women walking around depriving their bodies and not taking care of their health is a crisis. So yeah, yeah. Totally crazy. Yeah, just shifting tech slightly. You mentioned before that your two boys and only boys now, so I have a 13 year old and a 15 year old. Yep. I'm in a house full of boys. I don't Muay Thai, clinical practice for you too. Oh, my gosh. We could talk all day about that. Yeah, I kind of joke in my clinic. Got practice I've raised you know, I raised a lot of girls over the years, but technically I am a boy mom, even my dog is a boy. It's all boys. Oh, do you? Did you have brothers growing up? Or you? Yeah, so I actually have one brother. He is one year older. Yes. You did say that earlier. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So we're kind of I think, I think, you know, here in the States, I think that's referred to as being the Irish twins, because we are literally one year apart almost to the day. So that's interesting. But, but it's funny, because when I was in high school, I mean, I had like, some really amazing girlfriends and close girlfriends. My whole life, I've always, you know, been lucky to have some very special girlfriends in my life. But I just, like, always felt really comfortable hanging out with the guys, you know, I had a ton of guy friends. So I think having a brother and like, you know, just kind of in a lot of ways throughout high school and college being kind of like one of the guys or that girl that was just always like friends with all the guys that had the girlfriends that the guys all wanted to go out with, like, that was me, right? Like, I was like the net friends. And like, I had all the really cute blonde girlfriends that everyone wanted to date. And that was like, that was like my life. And so I just was always really comfortable around, you know, the guy. So now I'm like, move with me and the guys, you know. And so as you know, the World Cup is coming up. So that's what we're starting to go how like, it's all of a sudden going to be like soccer locked down. And this is just all we do is watch sports and soccer and talk about soccer. So I have to kind of sometimes get my head in the game and be like, Yes, I have to pretend to know who these players are and all these things. Yeah, on that I'm gonna dampen the mood a bit on the soccer. How do you feel about where it's being held? And, you know, the ramifications of being in a country that doesn't treat women very well? Yeah, that's a yes, I know. And honestly, I, I, I feel like I've, I've not been following closely along with it. So I do kind of want to, you know, reserve too much comment. I think that I know, there's been a lot of controversy. I know, there's been a lot of, you know, just questions as to what's really going on, you know, in the inner workings of FIFA and so, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's gonna be really interesting to watch and to kind of see, but yeah, I think I think that we are definitely at a time historically, where I think it's really important for women to kind of champion other women all across the globe in any way possible. Right. And I just, you know, I know there's all parts of the world where there are things happening against women and for women that is not honoring the dignity and the spirit of women and it's truly heartbreaking. And I think it's really doing a disservice to our planet. I think that you know, women have such a incredible nurturing you know, kind of differently creative way of being in the world and I think I think kind of the the, the surgence of women to kind of come out and say, you know, we really need to kind of fight up and stand for you know, stand up and fight for you know, our rights and the rights of other women is really important right now. Absolutely. Because yes, there is a lot there's a lot of going on particularly like you know Iran and Afghanistan off the top of my head but I'm sure there's a lot going on in a lot of other places that we don't see on the New Zealand day too so yeah. question that I like to talk to all my moms about is the concept of mum guilt. Or Mum Mum guilt so that was a really bad attempt. Mom guilt minute. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Concept and the topic? Yeah, my mom guilt so mum guilt. Um, yeah, it's interesting. I, I mean, find me the mom that doesn't, you know, experienced this to some degree. I just, it's interesting because in my mental health work, I talk a lot with my clients about how the interesting thing is that we're truly like cave for If cave people living in this modern world, right, like our world has evolved in this incredible way, but like our bodies, and our brains have not caught up with it and have not kept pace. So there's a lot of things that I think happened psychologically, for the human race right now in modern culture that actually is kind of like trying to reconcile sort of these primitive parts of the brain are these primitive ways that the brain operates. And then like our kind of modern culture, and I think, mom guilt is kind of an interesting one, because I sort of wonder if that isn't a part of that, right? It's like, if you think about how the survival of our species literally is dependent on Mothers not only giving birth to the babies, but nursing them, nurturing them, feeding them caring for them, so that they can go on and propagate the species forward. So it's interesting when you think about like, Is mom guilt, almost one of these things that is hardwired into us that we're like, supposed to feel so that the species doesn't die out? Right? Yeah. And so I think so I think that, you know, it's interesting, like, it's so primal and primitive, like if we didn't have mom guilt, and we didn't feel tethered to our kids, no matter where we were, like, who would be taking care of the kids, you know, what I mean? So, I mean, really, because if you look at, you know, culturally, at least in sort of modern Western culture, you know, my generation is the first generation where I feel like, dads kind of have a very active part in sort of the upbringing and the rearing of their kids, right, the generations prior to us that were very well delineated gender roles. And so up until very, very, very recently, like right now in human history, if moms weren't feeling mom guilt, the children wouldn't be thriving. Right? Yeah. And that's a biological thing. So I think that we're just kind of trying to figure it out of women, right? It's like, I biologically primally primitively feel so tethered and kind of needed by my kids, and I want to be there. And I feel like I'm needing to be there. And I'm reconciling the fact that maybe I can't, I can't be there all the time. Right? Like, I literally don't have live in a village with my children around me all the time. And we don't go any farther than like these five huts. Yeah. So we have to as modern moms, we have to venture away from our kids. Some of us are in situations where financially we have to work, we have to be in the workforce, right? Some of us want to be in the workforce, some of us choose to stay at home, and raise our children and have the financial, you know, kind of benefits and wherewithal to be able to make that choice. But it still might not be good for us to be there all the time. Because we still might need to go out and pursue our own, you know, our own endeavors, our own, you know, friendship circles, our own things. And so I think it's really interesting when you kind of look at this idea of mom guilt, because, you know, I know, I know, everybody kind of grappled with it to some degree and struggles with it. But I do think it's kind of rooted in something very primitive that we need to kind of, just try to understand from the perspective of, you know, maybe looking through that lens, looking at it through that lens, but also giving ourselves permission to, you know, continue to kind of pursue whatever it is we need to pursue, or we want to pursue in the world with with maybe a little less guilt, you know, because, yeah, guilt is such a heavy emotion, you know? Absolutely. And I think you're definitely right. We do need something else other than our role as mothers and fathers. Because I'm pretty sure we did lots of things before we had children, we felt we fit lots into that time, you know, now we've got the children, but we still probably have things that we want to do. And, you know, some of us are fortunate enough to be able to do that, like whether it's, you know, we've got the time, we've got the resources or the way, just the way, our you know, our circumstances are, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that do want to do things and can't quite make it work, which would be very frustrating. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like you know, I was I was, you know, like I said earlier, I was lucky that I, you know, was able to kind of take a few years off from my clinical practice when I needed to, I was kind of doing that juggle, and that hustle of all the things when my kids were babies and trying to figure out that stage of life with working. When I did take time off. I was, you know, such a, I was so kind of kind of fortunate to be able to be a very present mom. You know, and involved mom and in those years and so, now that I've shifted to being more involved with my work writing this book having different, you know, interests and passions outside of raising my kids, I would say that I personally am not in a season of my life, where I'm feeling an excessive amount of mom guilt, it's a little bit different. I think with teenagers, it's, you know, they have just very different needs of your, your, your presence and your focus and your your time and your energy. And so that's, I'm at a season of life where I'm just trying to figure out the trickiness of that, right, you know, and so, if I like, miss that little window, and then it's gone, you know, because we're on the same room for a while, or, you know, they're kind of out doing something or whatever, you know, I'm kind of at this stage of life, where I see how quickly it's all going and I can count, you know, with, with both my kids the number of years, they'll still be in this house on one hand with less thing you know, and so to me, that's, I think it's less about guilt, and just more about really wanting to double down on making the most of the time that we do have, because, you know, from from from my kids, it's a very busy stage of life, and everybody's going in lots of different directions. And the time that we do have all together that's kind of meaningful quality of time, just feels like it's constantly slipping through my fingers. So it's less of a guilt and more of kind of a melancholy a little bit and sort of a bittersweet, you know, reckoning of the reality of time. So, yeah, now I can definitely relate to that. I've got a almost 15 year old and a seven year old, so Oh, yeah. It's interesting. I want one to Well, I want them both to stop growing up, that would be nice. But the needs, the needs that they require are incredibly different. And it's, it's sometimes a very tricky juggle. Because yeah, you're right, when with those teenagers, you only get a limited time when they're available to you, I suppose. So. Be ready at the same time as gratiae with their presence. Okay, in Australia, what age do kids learn how to drive a car? I think we do come up if it's 16 or 17, six, okay. So you're not quite there yet. In the states where I live in Illinois, when you're 15. You can be learning to drive a car. Yeah. And you get your license when you're 16. So so I'm teaching my 15 year old how to drive right now. Which is, so I think, for me, the predominant emotion, going back to the question about manga isn't guilt, it's fear, right? It's like straight up anxiety and fear. Like my kids about to be on the road, he's on the road with friends who already have their license. They're out in the world, you know, when they kind of talk about like, bigger kids bigger problems, and having worked in mental health for teenagers for 20 years. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I think the predominant mental health issue for myself is less about guilt and worry about anxiety. Just straight up, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that stage. I'm really not. I'm really not. Because there's, there's a bit of a culture. We live in a country, sort of country area. And there's a bit of a culture about boys in cars, and, you know, driving fast and challenging each other and taking risks and all that sort of thing. So definitely not looking forward to that phase. But I think Alex is he's got his head screwed on right he's gonna be pretty right I think. I'm sure yes. Yeah, so the other thing that I really liked to talk about is this identity, so the way that we see ourselves and perhaps how that might have changed when you became a mother, did you sort of go through any sort of big shifts? Yeah, um, I mean, definitely, I think there were, like, right off the bat. So many events and things that just felt so deeply powerful for me that it you know, you just don't know to expect it you just think oh, I'm going to be a mom and you know, it's going to be great or it's going to be whatever it's gonna be, but like, you know, the things that really kind of knock your socks off, right? That just completely make you be like, Wow, I can't even believe I just experienced this or I experienced that feeling or whatever. So I definitely think, you know, becoming a mom really changed me in a lot of ways. It's, it's interesting because, you know, I think I am a bit of a kind of, naturally sort of perfectionistic sort of controlling type of person, and personality. And so, being a mom has really forced me to look at, you know, some of the things kind of in that shadow for me that I needed to kind of continue even, you know, 15 years later to just try every day, to kind of grow up myself a little bit like, my kids are kind of growing me up a bit too, in terms of like, faith and patience and things that you know, I'm trying to learn, I think that it is easy to feel that mothering and motherhood is so all consuming in so many ways, right? You have like the all consuming emotion you have the all consuming, especially when they're little all consuming need of like, literally your body in every last ounce of your energy and your whole kind of world does, especially in those early years get gets so caught up in the the role of mom or mum. And you know, and I think that it is it was interesting, I'll say, for me personally, it was interesting for me to kind of start to get curious about like, Okay, I love this, but like what else? You know, I love this, but who else? What, where else do I need to grow as a person? You know, I, I was kind of thrilled to get back into my work as a clinical therapist, because I think it just really drove home for me that we're all kind of like these little pie charts, right. And that was a big part of my pie chart was, you know that I'm a helping person and I have this skill set. And I have these kind of natural inclinations to help people in this way. And then photography became this other part of my pie chart, right. And then I've had other life experiences outside of being a mom that just happened in my 40s That made me really need to grow in my faith and my spiritual relationship and kind of caused me to really stop and question, you know, what do I really believe? And how do I want to live? And what are the areas of my life where I want to continue to grow just as a person outside of being a mom, just to be a, you know, a person who is constantly evolving and learning and growing and changing and not stagnating? Right. So I think, you know, there's been a little bit of all of that, for me, I think, you know, the, the fun surprising piece for me was that I think it was through becoming a mom that I was finally able to realize that I was a creative person. And that's just been the most beautiful gift in my life, right to kind of go through life with young boys doing creative things with them. I mean, we used to, like, you know, paint all the time. And we you know, we're redoing our basement one year, so we just kind of had like, you know, unfinished walls, and we just, like started painting big murals on the walls. And I just really got so into creative thinking, creative, living, creative being and of course, my photography was a part of that, but it's bigger than that, for me now, and I just love living life through that lens. And I think motherhood kind of birthed that for me. You know? It's interesting, you say that I was talking to someone the other day for a podcast, it said almost the same thing. was almost like having children gave them permission to let that creative side come out of them that they might have been holding in. Yeah, yeah. It's really good. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it for sure. Did that for me. And I think, you know, part of the thing that's hard, you know, and being a mom and being an or being a parent, or just being a busy person who is also a creative is like kind of finding time for all of that, you know, and so I think you know, really kind of reminding myself that you know, it's okay to make that a priority and it's okay to set aside some time for that. And if there isn't time for that in certain seasons for whatever reason, how can you still be a creative being in the world right? I mean, as mothers we are inherently creative, we created babies we created life. Yeah, we are all we are all creative beings. So so that very much kind of got switched on. All those lights got switched on for me. Wow, that's awesome. That's really good. With your creativity and in your book that you've made in the work that you do, is it important to you that your boys see that and see that you are capable of creativity outside of what you do with them as a mother? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I think I think they are probably constantly underwhelmed by me, and there's like, not a thing I could do that would be interesting or noteworthy. I mean, actually, I think they would go like the other way and say that, like, everything I do is actually cringy. And embarrassing. And I stop just even being in the room. Because it's so embarrassing. But but it but it really is important to me, I think, first and foremost, you know, like I said, we're kind of, you know, I have two boys that are kind of naturally athletically inclined, and, you know, my husband was an athlete. And so I kind of always want to remind them, like, hey, you know, we all have all five to Earth. And even though you're so aligned with, you know, your athletics and the sports that you love to do, like, don't forget that you used to really love to draw, don't forget that you used to actually really love to paint or you like, picked up musical instruments, when you were little or learn to, you know, play something for a time. And so, I think having my life having lived really well into my 30s, not thinking I was creative, it was almost, I felt like, you know, I kind of looking back on that just sort of feel sad at the thought that like, I wouldn't have been able to kind of be in touch with those parts of myself that now give me so much incredible, like inspiration and motivation and, and are such a part of my day to day life that I do want them to kind of see, hey, you know, you can have lots of different sides. And creativity is something that, you know, maybe mom does from time to time, or we do as a family or whatever, and like, you know, that they can always come back to those things or explore those things. You know, I'm a big believer that, you know, as you go through life, it is important to keep kind of growing and changing and learning new things. And it's kind of that, you know, fixed mindset, or open mindset or growth mindset type of thing, where it's like, you know, I think, you know, showing them like to just kind of always be open and have a growth mindset that, hey, you might not know how to do watercolours, but if you're interested in it, like you can certainly, you know, give it a try. In terms of the book, you know, it was really interesting, I do feel like, I was kind of able to recognize that the boys were kind of putting that together a little bit at the time that that book was launched, and we did a local launch, and it had a really good turnout. And it was kind of neat to see them be able to recognize that I had done something that hopefully is meaningful and kind of giving back. And it was very important for me to role model that for them, you know, I dedicated the book to my boys, even though it's a book about women's body image issues. And then I did that very intentionally, because I just really, so deeply want them to know, if you feel called or pulled in any direction to do anything. Go for it and do it and don't hold back. And you know, they, they did kind of see the blood, sweat and tears that went into that. And they did kind of get the behind the scenes of kind of what it took out of me and where I had to sacrifice in my life to make that happen. And all of the steps that I had to take to get there. And I was really proud that they were able to kind of see that model through the work that I had done. So yeah. Now that's really important. And I think when you're talking about including boys in things, like there's two points to that, I think it's important to note that any sort of eating disorder or disordered eating can happen to anybody. It doesn't just fit. Absolutely. But also I think it's really important that possibly the the hand that men have had, in creating this world, that women are so judgmental of themselves. And perhaps if they weren't doing that he might help us a little bit. Yeah, putting that in a nice way. But you know what I'm absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I do think there are, you know, it was hard for me to kind of look at that project through, you know, the lens of just kind of one gender, because I don't believe that my overall messaging is just about one gender, right. And in treating eating disorders, I certainly have seen and treated my fair share of boys and men with eating disorders and body image issues and their issues are just a little bit different. It's like, you know, there's kind of a different approach that you know, I would take or a different way that we kind of spin it I did think it was important to just kind of speak to the very specific cultural experience of God. Throwing up female. Yeah, yeah. And where that landed, but yeah, for sure. It can, you know, the insecurities or the the kind of Hey culture handed me this and, you know, now I don't know if that's really working for me can apply to all of us in some way, shape or form so yeah, cultural norms, that's something that I find interesting, I sort of, as I do this, I've been doing this podcast for 18 months, roughly. And as I've gone through, I sort of find these interesting threads that often come up. So then I add them into, like, the permanent thing that I like to talk about. And the cultural norms is something that I find really interesting. And we did talk briefly, we did sort of mentioned about, you know, this is the first generation where the dads are really involved, was your mum of that era, were mums had to just be at home, look after the family, or was your mum able to, you know, get her own interest and do our own interests and have our own outlet as well? Yeah, so my, my upbringing, I think I kind of have a, you know, generation that can kind of take the best of, you know, kind of both sides of that equation. In terms of my upbringing, you know, my mom was very much of the generation where, at least where I grew up, you know, most of the moms were stay at home moms. My mom was a teacher before, you know, my brother and I were born and when we were little, and she, you know, kind of did some work when we were little, but she's a very, she's, she is a very gifted writer, you know, but my mom, my mom is just so great. And that she has, you know, she, she has this spirit about her, she has this very kind of feisty spirit about her. And so when we were growing up, she was very involved, she was incredibly nurturing, she was always, you know, kind of helping us with whatever we needed and involved with our sports in school and all that. But she also, you know, kind of modeled that, hey, I'm gonna go out with my friends. And we're gonna go, you know, for doughnuts every Friday morning, or we're gonna go out and play golf, and she used to kind of go play rounds of golf. And, you know, I'd be, you know, we'd all be at the pool with our moms all off playing golf, like the whole day. No, so she definitely and you know, she always love to have a good party and have lots of great friends. And, you know, so my mom, I think very much, you know, kind of modeled for me, hey, you know, just because, you know, I'm here at home, you know, most of the day, and I don't work outside of the home right now, there are all these things that I want to go and do an experience. And, you know, my dad actually was, in the medical field, my dad was a dentist, and he had his own practice. And so I, I was kind of able to also have modeled for me through my dad, the importance of, you know, the importance and the challenges of being self employed. So I think that always really impacted me, you know, I would kind of see the benefits of him being self employed and being his own boss, but I certainly would see, like, the hard work and like that, the harder aspects of that, I don't think it's a coincidence that, you know, I kind of very early on, even when I knew I wanted to work in mental health knew I wanted to be in private practice, because I kind of knew I wanted to, you know, kind of call the shots and have, you know, be self employed if, if at all possible. So, so I kind of had that, you know, modeled for me on both sides. And I think, you know, my family is very kind of, you know, my family of origin. My parents and my brother are very supportive of like, you know, hey, like, if you got a dream or something, go for it, you know, like, don't let life kind of pass you by without, you know, kind of pouring yourself into something creatively or something that you feel called to do. I mean, my dad is, you know, 75 in two weeks and up in like, you know, last month he was on a on a racetrack in Texas for the support races for the IndyCar Series and he loves like racing karts, so he's still at 75 out chasing his dream of being a racecar driver. So in my family, there's no shortage of hey, you know, if you want to make something happen, do everything in your power to try to make a go of it. So, you know, but also from my mom very much like the loving nurturing support side of that, too, so, hmm, it sounds pretty ideal. Yeah, thank you gave you that. That awesome start. That's great. Good luck. Dad, I hope he keeps doing it. I love that so you've got the book yet now, we I'm really excited about the book, I hope that, you know, there's something in there that speaks to girls and women, you know, at some level in some way, I just hope it's kind of inspirational and meaningful. Yeah, but the launch of it's been really exciting. Now I'm kind of in this place where I get to go and just kind of enjoy it being done, because it wasn't you forever, but also just enjoy being out in the world, right. So I'm kind of doing some local book events, or, you know, I may kind of plan some things for 2020, we're 2023 Sorry, where I, you know, I'm kind of partnering up partnering up with different female local businesses or different bookstores are different things just to kind of talk to people about the book and its contents and, you know, share a little bit more about it. You know, one of the things that's been really fun for me, and having done the book is this idea that I really want to kind of double down on, you know, through my clinical work helping girls and women specifically with their body image issues. So I'm kind of really have been kind of crafting and creating what I'm calling the body beautiful set series or sessions, and they're really just going to be kind of time limited therapy sessions with me, where we're going to set aside a certain number of sessions. And we're going to just kind of go through the nuts and bolts and nuggets of trying to live in the world with more positive body image. And some of that can kind of track off of the book, I've almost created kind of like a workbook or sort of PDF that, you know, if people are working with me in these series, they can kind of go through and even if they have an outside therapist, or they circle back to it later, you know that it just kind of reminds them of you know, some of this work that they want to do to have a better relationship to their bodies. And those sessions will include a photo shoot, which I'm super excited to do, and then we therapeutically can kind of walk through the images and what they're seeing and, and make sure that they can kind of resonate with something about it being beautiful or positive. And then in addition to that, I'm just really excited to get back into doing some more of my photography. You know, I think it's really important that we debunk the myth for women that we can like do it all simultaneously. I think it's really toxic for women to just kind of look and be like, Oh, look at her, she did the same, she did this thing. She's doing this, she's doing that, like she must be able to have this magic secret sauce that, you know, she can credit juggle all of these things. And, you know, the reality for me in the last, you know, now, you know, two over two years is that I had to backburner a lot of things in my life in order to still be a mom and still have my clinical practice and write this book. And so there are areas of my life that I've kind of missed out on a little bit that I'm really wanting to get back to. And my deep love of photography is one of those things, you know, my my kind of side hustle of photography business, you know, I was writing the book and I was like flexing all these new muscles as an author and writing this book and working on this project. And even though there's photography in the book, my actual photography, business muscles kind of atrophied a bit and so, you know, I really am excited to hopefully continue to grow my photography work I really want to specialize specifically in portraiture, celebrating anything having to do with female beauty and empowerment. So I call these sessions portrait her and they are just custom special photo shoots. It's really it could be like milestone, it could be maternity motherhood, you know, so the last year of high school here in America is like senior year so senior portraits are things that we do in the States, you know, when it's your last year of high school before you maybe go away to school or go to your job or whatever you're going to do so senior portraits, empowerment, you know, sessions, you know, so I just really want to kind of be able to focus in on my photography, I found myself drawn back into those photography books that first inspired me to write the books to begin with, I'm kind of playing around with you know, different cameras that I haven't had a chance to play with in a while different lenses and I just some really feeling hungry to be an artist in that way again, and kind of have a fresh body of work there. So I'm hoping that in 2023 that kind of takes back off and I can be creating more work there. But you know, it's always a juggling act. I mean, I definitely feel like you know, time is always what is in the Most short of supply for any and all of us, right so you know, I certainly wish I had more time to devote to you know, the creative artistic pursuits. Well, you never know. I'm sure we all do you awesome, so your website is life lens and love.com Yeah, awesome. And you're active on Instagram. That's where I found you. You're on. Are you on Facebook or any other of the social medias? I'm I am on Facebook. Not that well. On I have a I have a page on Facebook it primarily Mitch matriculates from my Instagram feed. I've not been very good about checking it on Facebook for quite some time now. But I've gotten off the off the chair off the rails on Facebook. It's just like, I'm like you, I link my Instagram. So anything that goes on Instagram is on Facebook. And then I just don't go on it. I just I've just really dropped off. I really have no desire to be on it to me. And I and honestly like sometimes it confuses me like I was on there after a long time and realizing that there were messages for me hidden in there for people that literally were very old. And I was like, I didn't even know where to find these. But they popped up and now I feel terrible that I never responded to these messages that people sent me on this separate messenger thing of Facebook that I somehow missed. So yeah, I've done that, too. I've done that too. It's NBA anyway, I could talk all about how much I don't love Facebook anymore. Me too. Me too. Me too. Instagram, like is making me kind of sad these days, you know, I feel like just this algorithm is really tricky. And I think there's a lot of people whose pages in work I love but I'm not seeing and you know, you really have to play the game. And I, you know, think if you if you want to jump on and make a real and be dancing and doing something fun and free spirited and I think that's amazing. But I just really want to see like photography, I want to see stills I want to see, you know, I want to see things that like I can kind of really, you know, kind of take away from and I don't know, I think it's kind of gotten a little too tick talky and I jump on Tik Tok, and it makes my head want to explode. And I don't know why he would want to spend any time there. It's, yeah, goldfish with a three second, you know, attention span. And so I just feel like, oh, I kind of hope that Instagram can kind of revert back to the original spirit of the app, because I really loved it. And it's early days. And now I feel like we're kind of getting in a space where I don't know how much longer I'll be, you know, trying to play that game. But we'll see. Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people. I say a lot of people, not a lot of people. A few people I've noticed lately have been getting completely off everything and just saying this is my email, but this go on my email list or visit my webpage. That's how I'm going to talk to people now. Because I think people are worried that if the like, we don't own our content that we put out. Like, if Instagram goes down, there goes all our stuff, you know. And so I think some people are starting to get a bit worried specifically with the way that Twitter has just been desecrated for one word, but knew who knows what could happen to anything at any time. So I don't know, if people get a bit worried. But you're also on YouTube, I saw you've got some content on YouTube as well, what sort of, to share on on YouTube? You know, it's that is an evolving bag of tricks. I don't know what's going on on YouTube. I still sometimes like why did I build this channel. But I know part of it was that I last year around the holidays, I felt like I was kind of seeing some just trends in my clinical practice that I thought a lot of people could really kind of relate to in terms of like different issues that come up with the holidays or stress at the holidays or whatever. And I just felt compelled to like make some short video clips or content and I just didn't really know like, where those should live and where to put those and, you know whether or not it's even helpful or meaningful so I just I've started to kind of say like, alright, if I ever do anything, you know, that is video related, certainly with a book launch, there were a few things that were, you know, kind of a few interviews that I did, and a few things with the publication of the book that were more video content, my publisher wanted me to kind of post a video of me like seeing the book for the first time. So that's on there, you know? And I thought, gosh, where does one go to post random video clips of themselves promoting their work in the world? I guess it's YouTube. Oh, you know, I was traveling with my kids, like, hey, Mom's got her sights set on being a YouTuber. A couple of subscribers. So if you're listening, and you are at all interested, you can join the other couple of people. But yeah, I don't know. You know, I mean, I very much relate to what you were saying that you were kind of hearing, I think I am in very many areas of my life feeling old to more of a just kind of an old school way of doing things. And technology's kind of shaping me a little bit in some ways, and kind of the modern pace. And the ways we're supposed to do everything is kind of grinding on me a little bit. Maybe it's just the time of year and coming to kind of coming off of this big year professionally. But I don't know what next year is going to hold for me in terms of how much I'm pumping all this stuff out there with the content and kind of trying to, you know, maybe have a presence on YouTube or social media, whatever we'll see. I mean, certainly with Instagram, I find it's just crazy. I do love the creative aspect of it. You know, I mean, I just feel like I share the music that I like, and I share the some of the stuff with different artists that I like and whatever else and some of it's super random, and I just feel like if anyone cares, they can check it out. Maybe, then I don't I don't know. But, you know, we'll see. We'll do we'll see. I mean, I certainly understand that bowl of you know, like, let's just kind of get back to like, meaningful relationships with the small circle of people and just kind of spend our time less on technology. Maybe. Yeah, see how that feels. They can get actually get bored again, like, remember what that feeling felt like? Like that? Yeah, fit nowadays. It feels like a rest. You're not bored. You're actually just having a rest from everything. That's overwhelming. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, if you can get that, that's awesome. We have to actively hunt for that. Right? I mean, I really look for pockets where we can create, we have to create that we won't get it right. That's so true. That is so true. Yeah, well, I'll put all the links, I'll put some hyperlinks in the show notes, so people can click away and find you and the link to purchase your book, which is pretty important. You're selling that through Amazon exclusively for Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. There's, there's a couple of other places you can find it in the States. I don't know if it would translate, you know, kind of, you know, outside of the states. It's like, yeah, there's a couple of other But Amazon is the best one to kind of go and find I feel like that's kind of the pipeline for all the books in the world is through their platform for just about everything, isn't it? Yeah, I haven't really, I have been really pleased that some of like, my local boutiques have picked it up and some other local businesses, which has been really nice to kind of see local places showing interest. It's good. I know. Some people have strong feelings about Amazon. Oh, that's great. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Gina. I've really loved meeting you and chatting with you. And thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and your experiences and all the best with everything I love. I love what you're doing. I love how you've combined these two completely different elements of your life into this. This book is amazing. And I love I love the ideas you've got coming up for the future. So yeah, thanks again. Thank you so much. And can I just say I am so in awe and inspired by your vocal talents and your singing and I love honestly I mean, I when I found out you were a musician, I was like, Oh, can I just tell you that that is like the the thing that I want to come back in my next life and be because I love music. I have a terrible singing voice. If I do anything it would be to sing. So I'm just like, I'm so in awe of what you do. And I Oh, thank you. That's lovely. We just say but I do have a belief a very long held belief that everybody can sing. We just not everyone knows how to use their instrument. So you never know if you're a good teacher. You might be right. That I don't know here's what I will tell you about that when my kids were babies like before they could even string together sentences you I would like because I always have music going I love to sing. I always had lullabies for them like, like hand like curated CD mixes of lullabies for like babies. Right? But But I would be in the car and I would be singing and they would quit like they were strapped in their little car seats. They couldn't even say sentences, but they will be like, Mommy, No, mommy, stop. Mommy, no. Mommy stop. So I did feel like you know, out of the mouth of babes confirmation that I am not a vocal talent. I got one the other day. I was singing along to a song and my seven year old said Ma'am, can you stop singing? You're wrecking the song. I pick your pardon. I said yes. Sure, mate. No worries. Right, right. I know. Yes. There's nothing honest. Yes. Why would she want about two and I love that you're doing this because I think really, you know, just introducing women to things that other women are doing and you know, just everyone kind of I think we learn through stories and relating. Absolutely no, and I think it's so powerful. I just love that you're doing this. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for coming on. That's my always think people thank me, but I got to thank you because you're the people that make it without you guys. There wouldn't be a podcast. Right. Thank you. Good on you. Thanks so much. I've had I've had lovely time to

Singer, songwriter and mum of 2 Alison Newman chats to artists, musicians, writers and other creatives about what it is like being a mother - and being an artist. Juggling the day to day, retaining your identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", the pros, the cons and everything in between Podcast Shop Here are displayed the products used by, or created by our guests. The Art of Being a Mum is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Programme. Some of the links on this site are affiliate links. If you choose to buy a product from any of our recommendations by clicking on one of those links, we stand to earn a small commission, at no extra cost to you. Books The Competition written by my Season 2 guest Katherine Collette The Mother Fault Written by my Season 1 guest Kate Mildenhall Skylarking Written by my Season 1 guest Kate Mildenhall The Helpline written by my Season 2 guest Katherine Collette Bird of Paradise written by my Season 2 guest Emily Johnson Inner Compass Mom written by my Season 2 guest Danielle Kloberdanz Life: It Is What it Is written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman How to Raise Perfectly Imperfect Kids And Be Ok With It written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman Untying Parent Anxiety written by my Season 2 guest Lisa Sugarman Art Supplies Matisse Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Liquitex Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Atelier Acrylic paints Used by Season 1 guest Melanie Cooper Mont MarteAcrylic paints Mont MarteTable Top Easel Jo Sonja's Acrylic paints Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees and host Alison Newman Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Derwent Pencils Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Staples Matte Paper Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Micador Acrylic Paint Brushes Used by Season 2 guest Andrea Rees Rit Dye Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Winsor + Newton Watercolour Travel Set Used by Season 2 guest Fiona Valentine Lizbeth Threads Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Legion Stonehenge Paper Used by Season 2 guest Sami Lange Moleskine Art A4 Watercolour Notebook, Black Used by host Alison Tech Supplies Apple iPad 10.2inch Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Apple Pencil Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Canon Pixma PRO-200 A3 Printer Used by Season 2 guest Charlotte Condie Podcast Supplies As used by host Alison Newman for producing the podcast and for vocal album recording Ambient Reflection Filter Yamaha MG10XU Mixer w/Digital FX and USB Vonyx Studio Nylon Pop Filter XLR Cable Behringer B-5 Condenser Mic Behringer C-1 Studio Condenser Mic NEEWER Microphone Suspension Boom Arm Stand, Zoom H1n Portable Recorder Hard Case for YAMAHA MG10XU

7 Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 Hello! I'm Chelsea McCrae (she/her), a mother, teacher, and, more recently, the founder, producer, and host of my podcast, Definitely Baby. Over the past 4 years, I have developed a deep love for podcasts. However, it was only after becoming a mother that I felt compelled to start my own. During my pregnancy, I found solace in listening to birth stories, and after giving birth, I longed to hear from other parents about their postpartum experiences. As the first among my friends to have a baby, I often felt isolated in those early days of parenthood. Around 3-4 months after giving birth, I experienced a surge of creative energy, leading to the idea of writing a children's book with my best friend and creating this podcast. However, I soon found myself grappling with my anxiety, and parenting became all-consuming for a while. Balancing this with running our own English tuition business, my partner and I resumed classes when our daughter turned 4 months old. Creating the book never took off, but the idea for the podcast stuck. But it took until her first birthday for me to fully dive into recording episodes, and it was another 3-4 months before the pod was launched. Despite having a minor in journalism from my undergraduate studies at Monash University, I quickly realised that I was ill-prepared to produce a podcast as a one-woman show. It has been a tremendous learning experience, but I am grateful for the supportive community it has created and the connections I have made with fellow parents. I finally feel like I'm finding my rhythm with it now. My family consists of myself, my partner Hagan (he/him), and our daughter, Hazel, who is currently 20 months old. Additionally, I am currently 14 weeks pregnant with our second baby, who is expected to join us in late December or early January. Starting a podcast has been an incredible journey, albeit one that has made my weeks incredibly busy. As fellow podcasters can attest, podcasting is a labour of love that offers minimal financial incentives. It often takes years, especially for those without a preexisting social media following, to monetize their podcasts. When I first embarked on this venture, I naively believed that growing a listenership organically would be easier and that my podcast would gain traction more rapidly. Currently, I follow a scheduling pattern where I book 2-3 interviews for a few weeks, followed by a few weeks without interviews. This approach allows me to dedicate my podcasting time to editing the recorded episodes. With about 3-4 days already occupied by work for our tuition business, my weeks are already quite busy, and I have to find a way to fit podcasting into my schedule. Hazel starting daycare recently has provided me with some much-needed ease and flexibility, and I'm thrilled to see how much she enjoys it now. However, there are moments when I worry that the additional workload brought on by podcasting may take away time with Hazel. I question whether it's truly worth it. But then, a heartwarming message from a listener or a guest expressing their gratitude for their experience after recording an episode reminds me of the power of sharing our stories and reinforces the purpose behind creating this podcast. Looking back, I wish I had known the true extent of the challenges and time commitment involved, sometimes with minimal perceived gains. Also, I realise now that I should have conducted more thorough research to understand the vast number of parenting podcasts already in existence. Although I initially thought I was filling a unique niche, I have since discovered numerous podcasts with a similar format to mine. However, this realisation is not necessarily negative, as sharing our stories and shedding light on these topics is an invaluable endeavour. For anyone considering starting a podcast, I highly recommend conducting extensive research, connecting with individuals in the field (fellow podcasters are often willing to share their experiences and answer questions), and identifying a niche that aligns with your values. To be honest, I often find myself editing portions of episodes or working on social media tasks after Hazel has gone to sleep. While I'm becoming more efficient in the podcasting process over time, I recognise the need to establish new methods and dedicated time for this work. It's crucial to avoid encroaching on my already limited "me" time to ensure long-term sustainability. Also, being pregnant again requires me to be kinder to myself and seek ways to lighten my workload, particularly in the coming months as I near my due date. I've considered the possibility of hiring someone to assist me with editing, mastering episodes, or creating social media content. However, given the current circumstances, it's not feasible at the moment. Perhaps in the future, this could be a step I take to continue producing this beautiful content. I have had the opportunity to connect with numerous amazing individuals who also host podcasts. The podcasting community has been incredibly welcoming and generous in sharing advice and their personal experiences. From what I have observed, balancing parenting, work, and podcasting is a significant challenge, and it seems that everyone else faces similar struggles as well. I have drawn significant inspiration from the experiences and advice shared by fellow podcasters in my niche. Their valuable tips have guided me in implementing time-saving strategies for my podcast and have made it easier to integrate into my weekly routine. "I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel." As mentioned earlier, the podcast community has been incredibly encouraging and supportive. Even though most of my friends do not have children themselves, they have been wonderfully supportive throughout this journey. A friend who has their own podcast generously taught me everything about setting up an RSS feed, scheduling episodes, and the process of recording. My partner contributed by composing the intro tune and recording it with a producer friend. That same friend also mastered the initial 4 or 5 episodes of the podcast and provided valuable tips on sound quality. Additionally, another wonderful friend designed the original logo, and a talented photographer friend captured beautiful photos of Hazel and me, one of which I have used for the new logo. Lastly, I am grateful for all my amazing friends with kids who agreed to be part of the first 6 episodes that I recorded prior to the release, as well as all the wonderful people who continue to share their stories on the podcast. I couldn't have started the podcast or continued with it without the support network I have. It has played a crucial role in motivating me to persist and has alleviated a significant amount of pressure in the initial stages. Their encouragement and assistance have had a positive impact on my work, art, and overall creativity. Absolutely. I personally experienced the concept of "mum guilt" during my early parenting journey, especially when I didn't have close friends who were going through the same challenges. Connecting with my local New Parent's Group and spending time with other mums helped me realise that comparison, shame, and guilt were common emotions in parenting. Initially, I felt inadequate compared to others who seemed to have everything figured out regarding sleep, feeding, and routines. However, as we got to know each other on a more personal level, I discovered that we were all struggling and none of us had it all together. One triggering factor for my "mum guilt" was questions about Hazel's sleep habits, as it was a particularly challenging topic for me in the first year. Additionally, when I started working again for our own business when Hazel was four months old, I felt guilty for not being with her enough, especially during evening classes when she would cry for me as I left for work. In the early months of Hazel's life, leaving her would often trigger intense "mum guilt" for me. It was challenging for me to enjoy myself or have "me time" because I constantly worried about her crying, being hungry, or needing comfort. However, as she grew more independent after her first birthday, I started to find it easier to enjoy time away from her, making parenthood feel less overwhelming and more manageable. Regarding my creativity and starting the podcast, the transition felt relatively smooth. While it can be overwhelming at times and requires a significant amount of work, the fact that the podcast's topic is deeply rooted in parenting helps alleviate some of my "mum guilt" when I invest time into it. The only concern I have is occasionally worrying that it may take away more time from Hazel. In summary, "mum guilt" has influenced my early parenting journey, particularly when comparing myself to others. However, as I formed connections with fellow parents and gained more confidence in my abilities, the intensity of "mum guilt" diminished. Starting the podcast has provided a creative outlet that aligns with parenting, and although it can be demanding, it doesn't trigger the same level of guilt as other aspects of life. Becoming a mother brought about a significant transformation in my sense of identity. This change was amplified by the circumstances surrounding my pregnancy, as it came at a time when I was completing my Masters degree and navigating a new relationship. Motherhood has unexpectedly provided me with a sense of purpose that I didn't realise I was missing. It has anchored me and instilled a newfound confidence within me. I now embrace the role of "mother" wholeheartedly and it has become a central aspect of my identity. While I don't specifically resonate with the idea of needing to be "more than a mother," I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel. As she grows older, I want to demonstrate the value of self-care and pursuing passions, and I hope to inspire her through my actions and the values I hold. Starting this podcast has become a significant passion of mine. I firmly believe in the power of sharing stories and creating a supportive and inspiring resource for other parents and individuals alike. I take immense pride in the effort and time I invest in building this podcast and fostering a supportive community. It's something I hope my children can someday admire in me, as it aligns with the values I strive to instil in them. The work of a mother, in general, is ridiculously underrated. The paid maternity leave we are given is so minimal, and women often take off more time than their work allows due to personal preferences. Consequently, there is a significant period without contributing to superannuation. Motherhood is, by far, the hardest, most time-consuming, and relentless job I have ever experienced. As for my podcast, it does not generate any income; in fact, I spend close to $100 per month on recording and editing platforms. The prospect of monetizing it seems distant, and this long-term impact affects how I perceive its value. While it remains my passion project, it demands a substantial portion of my time, leaving me uncertain about its sustainability going forward. Nevertheless, I must continue to nurture my love for it. I firmly believe that the work of artists, especially mothers who are also artists, is highly undervalued by society. "I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations." I was raised by a single mother, and due to her status as a single parent, she had no choice but to continue working from when I was a young age. She worked as an independent midwife, which meant that there were times when I stayed with family members or friends while she attended births. As I grew older, I even had the opportunity to accompany her to some of these births. Since she was self-employed and had a flexible schedule, she was able to spend a significant amount of time with me. Additionally, we had the chance to travel and also moved towns and states a lot. These experiences of being raised by a working single mother instilled in me a strong sense of independence. I have always rejected the notion of the heteronormative, patriarchal perspective that perpetuates traditional societal norms and expectations, assuming rigid gender roles where mothers are primarily responsible for parenting, cooking, and cleaning. As a result, it is extremely important to me that my children see both Hagan and me as equals in terms of our careers and the shared responsibilities of parenting. This value holds particular significance in raising my daughters. I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations. My podcast, Definitely Baby , is available on most major platforms. Simply search 'Definitely Baby' and it should come up. You can also find me on Instagram @definitelybabypodcast, where I share beautiful photos of our weekly guests, segments from episodes, and updates about my life and the podcast. Each week, I release a main episode featuring interviews with different parents, exploring their beautiful and unique parenting journeys. I ask each guest a similar set of questions to capture a diverse range of stories on the same topics. Additionally, I occasionally release bonus episodes where I delve into interesting topics with experts. I'm also excited to introduce two new upcoming segments.The first segment features casual chats with mums and parents discussing various topics related to parenthood. Think of it as eavesdropping on a parent's group catch-up and gossip. The second segment, which I'm incredibly thrilled about, focuses on VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Caesarean). As I'm personally planning for a VBAC later this year, I'm deeply passionate about providing a resource to empower others to make informed choices. I already have lined up a few exciting experts as guests, and I believe it will be an incredibly special series. So, for anyone out there who is considering whether VBAC is the right option for them, planning for one, or knows someone who is, keep your eyes peeled for this upcoming series! It's going to be a valuable resource. Contact Chelsea Links: Spotify / Apple Podcasts / Instagram BACK

Kate King US counsellor + art therapist S2 Ep60 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Kate King, a licensed professional counsellor and a certified art therapist, and a mom of of 2 based in Boulder Colorado. USA Kate grew up with a lot of art around her, her grandmother was always very creative as were her parents, her dad was a stone sculptor. Her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketch books that she would always carry around with her. Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already before knowing what it really was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver where Kate graduated with a dual Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Art. It wasn't until she completed College that she googled what to do with these studies and found art therapy. From there Kate eagerly pursued post-graduate education at Naropa University (a Buddhist-inspired school in Boulder, CO) where she earned a Master’s Degree in Transpersonal Counselling Psychology and Art Therapy. Kate is a Licensed Professional Counsellor and Board Certified and Registered Art Therapist. Her private practice is a colourful, creative, cozy space located in the Ken Caryl area of Littleton, Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, The Radiant Life Project , Kate offers a holistic, preventive health perspective which incorporates verbal, creative, and body-centred therapy skills and techniques. She operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path, and re-creating their story along the way. Kate began writing her book The Authentic Mother - Creative Art Engagement to Support the New Parent when her son was 3 months old, as she was unable to find a book that could help her in the creative way she was seeking. Kate has also created a set of oracle cards, The Ink & Wings Oracle Deck , and I was fortunate enough to receive a reading from Kate in this podcast! If you are interested you can take a look at the cards she drew for me here Connect with Kate website / instagram / facebook / youtube Connect with the podcast - website / instagram *** This episode contains discussion around mental health, anxiety, post natal depression and birth trauma. *** If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Kate King. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and a certified Art Therapist, as well as being a mom of two based in Boulder, Colorado in the United States. Kate grew up with a lot of art around her. Her grandmother was always very creative, as were her parents. Her dad was a stone sculptor, her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketchbooks that she would always carry around with her. And Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already, before really knowing what it was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver, where Kate graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in psychology and art. It wasn't until she completed college that she Googled what to do with these two modalities and found art therapy. From there, Kate eagerly pursued postgraduate education at Naropa University, a Buddhist inspired school in Boulder, Colorado, where she earned a master's degree in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and board certified and registered art therapist. Her private practice is a colorful, creative and cozy space located in the ken Carroll area of Littleton in Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, the Radiant Life Project, Kate offers a holistic preventative health perspective, which incorporates verbal, creative and body centered therapy skills and techniques. Kate operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path and recreating their story along the way. If today's episode is triggering for you at all, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I have compiled a list of great international resources on my website, Alison newman.net/podcast. This episode contains discussions around mental health, anxiety, postnatal depression and birth trauma. The music used on today's episode is from my new age, Ambient Music trio called LM Joe and is used with permission. Lm j is myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for being a part of this. It's really it's lovely to meet you. It's lovely to meet you. I'm grateful to be here. Yeah. So whereabouts are you in the US? I am in Denver, Colorado. Yeah, right. That's pretty nice there, isn't it? It's beautiful. And very close to the infamous Red Rocks. concert venue. So I don't know if you've heard of that. But it's really pretty place. Yeah, right. So what time of year is over there now? You're in your summer, aren't you? Yes. This is the hottest time of the summer for us. Yeah, right. So jealous of where you are. I would love to be winter right now. Don't be jealous. It's horrible. Here. It is just fair. I just, we've just come back from a week up in Queensland where it's like nicer. Because it's just so gray. Like I can deal with cold but I just can't deal with lack of sunshine. Like it's just just gray. And it just makes me annoyed. And yeah, you're like in Colorado. We have like 300 days of sunshine here. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Don't tempt me. That sounds really. Maybe it's time for a vacation. Yeah, I've actually never been to America. So there you go. And I've never been Where You Live either so I would love to visit. Australia is pretty good. A lot Australia. Yes, I've heard beautiful things you after your name, you've got lots of letters. Can you just just tell us what, what you what you do? Yes. So the M A is representative of my master's degree, which is in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Transpersonal Counseling Psychology is a form of psychology that considers where the psyche and the spirit meet. And so there's a lot of influences around spirituality and just kind of open mindedness and open heartedness into different traditions and modalities. So that's the MA, the LPC is my Licensed Professional Counselor certification. So that's my therapy license here in the state of Colorado. And the ATR since I wrote this book, actually, I have a new credential now it's ATR dash BC, which stands for board certified registered art therapist. And so that's a art therapy designation. Excellent. So going right back to the beginning, I guess, how did you first get interested in? Was it the art that came first? Or sort of the thinking about people? Like how did you sort of get drawn into this sort of area? Yeah, it was the art. My my family is sort of creative at the roots. My grandmother was always very creative. My dad is a stone sculptor. And so I had a lot of art surrounding me growing up, and my family really supported just expressing that way. And I used to have these black sketchbooks that I just would fill with drawings, I would carry these with me everywhere I went, I had bookshelves filled with them. And, you know, they were, I wouldn't go anywhere with them. They were always with me. And so I think I was doing art therapy on myself before I knew what it was. It wasn't until I was about to graduate from college. And I had a Bachelors of Arts Degree and a psychology degree in a double bachelor's focus that I was like, What do I do with my life? And I actually Googled, what do you do with an art degree and a psychology degree? And that's how I first learned about art therapy from Google. Yeah. And then did you sort of go, this feels very familiar to me, like, Was it something that just sat naturally with you anyway? Yes, it resonated so strongly that I just, I stopped really looking and I just started looking for a graduate program where I could really studied what I wanted to study. And I ended up at a school here in Colorado called Naropa University that was founded by a Buddhist monk. And it has a strong background of meditation and different kinds of spiritual practices. And so the coming together of science and spirituality and creativity and psychology, it was just like, everything that I was interested in. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I didn't actually know that places like that existed. That is really cool. It is very cool. I did not know either, until I plugged them into Google. So for people who aren't familiar, how would you describe art therapy? Art Therapy is it's a form of, there's actually two different schools of art therapy. One is considered art as therapy, which is that the art is inherently healing, and you don't really need to talk about it, do anything, you know, just creating heals things within us because it helps us to sublimate or move the energy through our body and out from us in a way that's productive. And the other school of art therapy is art as psychotherapy, which is more of what I do in my private practice where I would provide specific directives, kind of projects for people that are designed with the intention of helping them investigate what's going on in their lives and have sort of a visual representation of that, rather than just the talking that we normally do in therapy, which can so often, kind of people can Avoid talking about certain things, or they can hide information from themselves from their therapists that way. But art therapy is just a really gentle kind of backdoor into the psyche that allows you to work through the metaphor of color, and line and shape and image. So you see what you're ready to see in your art. And the art therapist can sort of gently reflect like, wow, it looks like you only used you know the color blue today, what does blue mean to you? And then we can sort of have a collaborative dialogue about what this symbology looks like in your life and how your art can be kind of a roadmap for your psyche? Hmm. Do you find then that people that what actually comes out of people is often it's it's things that you can't put words to generally, because it's so deep, maybe people don't even realize what they're bringing out of themselves? If that makes sense. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, people, they don't know, they don't expect the art to move through them in the way it does. But usually, once they do create something, it's easier to talk about it because it already exists in some form. Now that they've made it, it doesn't feel so pent up. And sometimes talking about things through metaphor just feels a lot safer. Instead of someone talking about their trauma, they can talk about the, you know, the lightning bolts that are in their imagery, and that holds the kind of energy of that trauma without it feeling so triggering that it shuts them down. Hmm. Yeah. So it's a really good way for people to communicate without feeling. I don't know, scared, I suppose that. Yeah, wonderful. It's like a natural titration process where they can, they can kind of go as deep or as as intensive as they want to go. And they don't have to do anything they don't want to do their art kind of helps to guide their comfort. Yeah, yeah, that is really cool. Because I've had my fair share of, of therapy over the years, but I've never done art therapy. And it's sort of a kind of wonder, it's just to see what happens. Especially as a creative person, I'm surprised that surprise, you wouldn't do that. Although, you know, you don't have to be a creative person to benefit from art therapy, I actually, I really enjoy seeing people come to art therapy, who have no art background at all, because they don't have any picture in their mind for making something beautiful or frameable. It's just expression for the sake of expression. And sometimes that takes a lot of pressure off. So for people who are already artists, sometimes we need to move through the layers of like, releasing some of the pressure. And so I'll have them make art with their nondominant hand or with their eyes closed, things like that, so that they don't have that pressure to make something beautiful. Sometimes you need to make something messy or ugly. Yeah, cuz that's the thing is in a restaurant, you're not really addressing the issues. I mean, you're showing new issues, I suppose the the lack of letting go and control and the pressure that you feel and the expectation, whatever. But yeah, perhaps not then allowing you to go into that next layer of what you kind of might need to work through, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. But it's all it's all good work. And I think whatever is ready to be worked on comes up in this session. And so we don't really have to dig too deep. It just shows up, because ultimately, our systems want to heal. Yeah, I've heard that actually like that, that I can't, I don't know how to describe it. But it's like your, your inner, whatever that is, knows where it's supposed to be. And it will do what it needs to do to try and get you there. But then the humaneness of us and the ego stops us from getting there. Right, exactly, yeah, we get in our own way, a lot of the time. Art is a really great way to help to sort of release some of those narratives and just let you connect with the part of you that knows what you need to heal and express and grow. Yeah. Coming back to your own art, what sort of style or is there a way you can describe like the mediums you like working with what what's sort of your art? Yeah, so my art has sort of changed over time. It's interesting. As an art therapist, I know now that the different kinds of art I made over time were reflective of how healed I was in my own psycho emotional process. So what I do now is I love watercolor and goulash like a like the pigmented like the tubes of watercolor, not the palette necessarily because I like it when it's really vibrant. And I also like to draw I like a lot of detail and I love just black rollerball pens, and then sort of working with them together with watercolor can be interesting. But in the beginning for the longest time, most of my life, I it was just black and white, really intense, patterned, organized drawings. And I now know that that was my way of containment and of kind of holding myself together. And as I went through my own therapeutic journey, I was able to explore more with, you know, watercolor that drips and bleeds and it's less than control. I also really liked colored pencil, just colors really vibrant colors are important to me. And lately, I've been drawing a lot of imagery about goddesses and the divine feminine and sort of the celestial. I have pictures with like a goddess with horns and wings and a sun, you know, solar systems. So it gets a little magical for me. Oh, that's so cool. It's interesting, isn't it, there's probably people out there now thinking, they're thinking about the stuff that they make, that they're starving, they're thinking, Oh, I wonder what that means. Like, we can, we can draw so much from what we're doing. And it's interesting, you say how it changes like I, I have times when and this is just me personally, and I'm sure there's people, you know, we change all the time. But there's some days I really like to draw, and I can't draw like I'm not a draw at all. But I love coloring and I love the sound that it makes. And it makes me feel really grounded. Almost like I have an urge to write in lead pencil like that kind of feeling where I don't know back to the earth where you know, it's I don't know how to describe it anyway. And then other days, like the watercolor, you happy to let things just wish wash everywhere and you don't mind if something dripped somewhere? Or well, maybe then you do. And then you go, Oh, actually, no, I don't want to do this today, I need something that's going to stay more I want it to stay. So we sort of change, even, you know, day to day of what we're using, based on how we're feeling and what we're going through, I suppose. Yes, the materials can mirror what we're feeling. And they can also be used to sort of like nudge us when we're ready for growth. So a really controlled person, when they're stable and resourced. Watercolor would be great for them, because it would sort of push them to become more comfortable with less control. And when you practice that with art, your brain starts to become more familiar with that. And then it's more likely to repeat that in other areas of your life that are not art, like maybe your relationships, you don't have as much control. And you're more okay with that. So it kind of pairs well with all of life. Yeah, that just reminded me of a lady I had on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, Fiona Valentine, and she's in Australia. And her and her husband do classes for businesses, like groups of employees, who want to try and extend their creativity. So they, they get them to draw, and it's something that's achievable. So it's not going to make people feel like alienated that they can do it. And then when they realize that they can actually draw, then it changes those neural pathways. And then like you say, it flows over to the other parts of their life. So the idea is that then it might help them in their work to think differently, or, you know, see things in a different way, I suppose. So it's absolutely a thing, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, our brains are really malleable. And so if we can find some mechanism that helps to teach our brains to think differently, it affects our whole life, it has a ripple effect that reaches really far. Now, I want to start talking about some of the things you've created. And I'm gonna start about your book fairs, which you've kindly sent me a copy of thank you so much. It's called the authentic mother, creative art engagement to support the new parent and I have read through this and it is sensational. It is really, really, like I was blown away. I really, I wish we shouldn't say things like this, but I wish I had had this when I had my first child because I think it would have made a massive difference to my mental wellness and my journey through mental illness. Can you see We've asked what the sort of impetus was to create it and telling us in your own words, rather than me, telling people what it is to share, share what it is all about. Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for your kind words, it really, it really is a labor of love. So, I wrote this book in the very beginning stages of my motherhood journey, after I had my first child, probably when he was, I don't know, maybe three months old, I started writing it because I needed a book. And because I was feeling really, like, shocked and lost and overwhelmed by motherhood, because it was not the beautiful picture that everyone said it would be. The birth was totally traumatic, like it was very, very challenging. And so I kept trying to find a support resource. And everything I looked for it was either kind of shaming or not really validating for the truth, it really didn't give a lot of creative support, which was very important to me at that time. And so I just started to journal and write about my experience. And one day when I was journaling about it, I had left it on my computer, and a friend of mine came over. And she saw it, and she's like, What is this? And I told her and she was like, Kate, you have to publish this. This is what so many moms need. And I'm like, no, nobody wants to read this. And so ultimately, that was the beginning. And she said, Yes, moms need this, for sure. And so because it's an art therapy book, it talks a little bit about the neuroscience and kind of the psychological aspects of what happens in the brain in the body when we become mothers, fathers when we all go through this, but it felt important to have real artwork in it. And so I sent out a beacon to moms and I ended up getting over 35 Real moms who don't identify as artists. And they I sent them the directives that I write about in the book. And they made art for the book. And so I have real, real pieces of artwork for the projects and directives that I've designed to help support moms, dads, just new parents, as they're navigating everything from body image stuff to mental health challenges to issues with your family and your in laws and boundaries, cultural expectations. So it's a really wide variety of directives. And the intention here is really just to support that the motherhood experience is very vast and broad and unique for everyone. And it's important that we have a creative outlet for that, so that we don't spiral down to a place where we feel isolated, and things get worse. So literally, that was this book is what helped you and stopped you from doing just that. Man, thank you for sharing it with the world. That fringe, whoever you are, thank you. Because it is so valuable. It's I don't know, I, I, when I was flipping through it, I just kept thinking, I wish I'd known this, I wish I thought like this, I wish I'd had, I wish like literally I wish I had it would have even with my second child when I was seven years older, I had more experience in the world, I was now working in childcare. So I physically knew how to take care of a child. And I kept telling myself, it's not going to be the same, it's gonna be totally different, you know, for all these, whatever reasons, and my personnel depression was far worse than it ever was when my first child. So the talk that like, and you're saying, Hey, you talk about I guess, what's the word, the jargon? I don't know if that's the right word, but of your background, you know, the the psychology behind things, and you know, the neural pathways and what have you. But that's not overwhelming. It's not like you pick it up and you feel alienated by the words, if you know what I mean. Anyone can pick it up without having any understanding or any background or knowledge in that field. So that's really good. So you don't feel you know, you're already going through enough as a new mother. Like, I don't know this, and I don't know that. But you pick this up and it feels familiar. Which is lovely. It's like, if I'm getting really sloppy now but it literally it feels like you're right here next to me if you know what I mean. Like it feels like you're right here. So I'm getting really emotional. Really does it really feels like that and, and I love that you call it the authentic mother because it's you know, because we have all these, you know, versions of what a mom's supposed to be and the good mom and the bad mom and you're not doing this you're not doing that and you're not doing it right. It's like Get rid of all of that those labels, and you go back to who you are, in your core. You're this child's mother and how to sort of look after yourself and keep yourself well. Sorry, that was really blurry. I appreciate it. No, I It really warms my heart that the book has touched you because that was, that was what I so needed. And that was my intention. I wanted people to feel with this book, like they were talking to a friend. And I wanted it to feel accessible to people who wanted to kind of understand what was going on with them, but didn't have the psychology background. So I'm happy to hear that it doesn't feel dense and jargony accessible to you. Because that's, that was my intention. Now, it's lovely. Sorry, I've just raved on so much. But honestly, I just even as I'm sort of thinking that because I want I want to do this stuff in it, I want to use it in a way. I'm not gonna have any more children. But I feel like I could benefit from doing the the exercises and like you said, the directives in here, thinking it from looking at through another lens, perhaps as other issues going on in my life. So Oh, yes, all of legally. All of these directives are applicable outside of early motherhood as well. I mean, I couldn't really honestly flip to any of them. I just flipped to one that was about just creating this called the insecurity image. It's on page 138. And this is just about creating imagery about what you feel insecure about. A new mom to feel insecure. This could be about your workplace, your relationship, your your new gray hairs, like I don't know, it could be about anything. Yeah, let's see, I've just got glasses. I don't want to wear them. Yeah, so any of these are applicable inside of motherhood, outside of motherhood in groups. I've done a lot of these directives with my friends. I've done them with my husband. I've even done them with children because they're really fun. Yeah. So there you go, everyone, even if you're not having another child, you can definitely gain something from this. And something else you you've got that you've made, which you just shared with me before we went live is your I don't want to come to do a column tarot cards, or you call them Oracle Card, Oracle Card. Sorry, yeah, this is the ink and wings, Oracle deck, because you know, my art is magical. And it includes wings. So there you have it. So this is a deck of cards that is comprised of my artwork. And it is very, sort of spiritually rich, and it helps with insight and just gaining navigation for your for your life. I I pull cards almost every day and my kids love it. We pull cards for what you know what's gonna happen today, or what do I need to focus on right now? And it seems like it's always really spot on. I love doing my cards. I often do them overnight when about when I'm about to fall asleep. And I'll do the three card spreads. I will do like the past, present or future. And then other times just there'll be another card that's like poking its head out and like okay, yes, you obviously need to tell me something. And then I've just end up with like, all these. Oh, just one more, just one more. But yeah, I love them. We might. We might talk about them a bit later and possibly do a reading if you're up for that. Oh, yes. I would love to do a reading. That will be a first for the podcast to no one's ever done. I love it. It's always so fun when I do those because I'm like, is this gonna work? And then usually it kind of does. So we'll see if it works. We'll test it out. All right. Ready? Now you mentioned one of your children there when you said he was sorry, he or she I'm not sure was three months old when you started writing the book. Can you share a little bit more about your children? Yes. So my son is named Bridger. And he's nine. So he in this book are about the same age. I birthed them at the same time at the same time they birth myself as a new mom. So I have Bridger who's nine and I have Heidi who is six, and no more babies for me because my hands are so full with those. I can relate to that. So you said you you share your sort of experience with the oracle cards, you're obviously quite sort of open and communicative with the children and share a lot of your things you enjoy, I suppose. Are they into do some art. They do the artwork as well? Yes, yeah, we have set up a designated art space in our home. And so sometimes when it's a weekend and we have some extra time we get Really excited about having our time together. And I had a teacher in graduate school in my art therapy program that always said, you have to lay out your art materials like like you're in a candy store, so that they all just look so enticing, that you just can't wait to dive in. And so we keep our room like that in our home where everything has its place, and it's colorful, and the boxes are open, and you can see what's inside. So the kids will just go into the art space with me, and some days will paint some days will make a big mess, some days will, you know, be very, very tidy and neat. And we'll do collage, we'll do everything. And it is such amazing bonding time. Even my husband will join us sometimes. And he I don't think he identifies as being very creative. But I think he really enjoys it when he's there. What not what I would read it, yeah, and you just kind of get lost in the art process. And we do have, at the end of every year, we have a family vision board kind of ritual where we all go through collages and create imagery about what we want to bring into the next year. And so that has become something my husband has really enjoyed. And he actually invited his father to join us a couple of those years. And it was so fun just having the whole family make vision boards. And then you put up all our vision boards. And it's interesting to see what everyone wants that's similar or different and how they overlap and how they kind of coordinate. So when you had your daughter, then I don't want to say you breeze through it. But did you find it easier because you have those tools and you knew what you needed to do to incorporate your art to help you manage the transition to have? I think it was easier for me? Yes, I think having the tools was a big a big deal. And it really supported me. And also, I think it also helped me that I had already sort of stretched my life around one baby. And so I felt like, you know, there's no, there's no selfishness left, like might as well throw another one in here. While we're while we're the bottomless pit of caregiving. Yes, but it definitely was interesting to have art. When I had my daughter, my son was two and a half. And so he was active in the art process. So we would be able to make art together at that period, which was really a kind of neat thing. So that when the baby was, you know, nursing or sleeping, I had something to do with my son that actually benefited both of us. That's really important, isn't it? Because I feel like a lot of the time, pardon me, the the first child, depending on their age can sort of feel a little bit shafted, like there's a new baby here. And now I'm number two, and I don't like this, and then you can see the sort of perhaps some changes in behavior, you might not like putting it that way. But yeah, to be able to do that you keep your relationship really strong with him. And I guess to its, it allows him to realize that this new little person isn't a threat to him. So he's might be more anonymous and more accepting. But maybe I don't know, it sort of helps all of the three of you together to create, you know, a little unit as a three rather than a, it's me, it's mum time, or it's not my mom time, you know that that conflict? Right? Yes, the art can be sort of like a joining force. That's a really good word. Yes. That's really good word. I like that. I'm going to take that quote. Yes, go for it. I also think it's good with when when babies are around moms who are creative, then creativity is a normal part of life. And so it feels more accessible to the kids. It's like, if you grow up, you know, eating vegetables, then vegetables are just normal and you just eat them, right? It's the same thing with creativity and moms get to model that by their own creative process and the inclusion of their kids through that and sort of joining. Absolutely. And I think then as you as the kids get older, perhaps then realizing, seeing that deeper meaning behind the art, like sneaking into that art therapy sort of realm that it's not, I'm not just making marks on the paper. I'm not just painting I'm actually using this as a tool in my life, which is Powerful to give kids from a young age, isn't that, right? Because we all have this tool, even the people who identify as non creative, we are all creative if we tap into it, and if we allow ourselves to be and it's, it can be completely free, you can go make art with nature, it does not have to be expensive, it does not have to cost really anything. And so I think it's accessible. And a lot of us just forget, or a lot of people are really traumatized by their kindergarten art teachers. So I get a lot of clients who come in and they're like, I am not an artist, I'm not artistic. My kindergarten art teacher told me that I'm bad at art. So I haven't made art since. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's time for a corrective experience. Because art is about being expressive. It's about making, it's not about the end product. Yes, I'm really glad you said that, actually. Because as you were starting that conversation there, something came into my head and what you just said to completely confirmed it. I come from a background of working in childcare, I was in childcare for nine years. And our center had this really big philosophy about, we had this art room that was available all the time to any child of any age, or like the candy store, like everything was there, you could pick what you wanted to. And you didn't have to have an idea of what you're going to make before you went in, which I think is really important, because I think some people can be like, to the children. Now what are you going to make, it's like, well, you don't really no till you there and you're experimenting and experiencing, then something might come out. But then a lot of kindergartens and I know a lot of like early, maybe reception in new ones, teachers would have just like a cut out like a printed stencil, each child will get the exact same picture, maybe just say it's Christmas time and everyone's got to make a Christmas tree. And it all has to be green. And it all has to have the same things on it. And it all has to be folded the same way. And we used to have this poster up in our staff room, and it was like a picture of a child created a painting of whatever. And then it had this, you know, repetitive, exactly the same image. And it said, This is art, this isn't and it sort of helps you realize that it's not about the end product, it's not about having that whatever looking tree to give to Mum and Dad, it's about, you know, I always valued like you can see behind me, you might not be able to cause the sun, but I've got I put most of my kids paintings around the room. And a lot of them are just I have no idea what they are. Or they might be just some whatever's on a page, but I love them and I value them so much more than I value, you know, that stencil carbon copy, because I know that they haven't done that. That's the teacher's intention is to make everybody make the same thing. And I just think it's damaging to the little imaginations that want to run wild and be magical and be inventive. And maybe your tree has horns, maybe it's purple, maybe it has six trunks, you know, we need to be able to have that expressive freedom. Yeah, maybe it's not actually a tree, maybe it's a rocket ship. Or, again, if it was my chart, if you like you're picking up. Right. Right. And, and having a place where they can have, you know, the sky be the limit to their creative ability and capacity is so valuable for kids. Absolutely. And I think I've spoken about this with a lot of moms is that fear that we can have about and probably coming from our sort of, perhaps issues with control and having things done. Right and not having mess is it's really can be really challenging to set your children up with with paints and sit there and not freak out because it's going everywhere. And it's on them. And it might not be on the paper that can be quite challenging for for moms to get over as well. Yes, I think I tell moms who have that, that kind of issue with the messiness piece to go outside and make art in the grass or to have a designated set of clothing. That's art making clothing that we just don't worry about, or to put down a giant piece of tarp or a sheet that you don't care about so that you really you can let go of that. But it's also valuable for the mom to notice that that kind of anxiety around the mess, and to do her work around that too, because the art is actually helping her to see an area where she still needs healing. And so the art therapy is happening for her even if she's not the artist, she's the witness. But she she has a thing revealed. So it's notation back into herself. Hmm, that is so true, isn't it? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Two topics that I love to sort of delve into with my guests on this show. One is identity. And we've spoken briefly about that, but we'll talk about it more. And the other thing is mum guilt. How do you feel about that? I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I think most if not all, moms feel it. And I love that it is something that's out in the open as a real thing. So that it takes the shame out of it, if possible. And if you can name your experience of having mom guilt, I think just the power of naming it takes some of the charge out of it. But yeah, I think we, I mean, I think you're in a different culture than I am. But I think collectively, many cultures on our globe have these sort of predetermined rules and expectations and structures that mothers are supposed to fit into. And it really does us a disservice. Because it doesn't allow us to be who we are. And so that's a big reason why my jam is authenticity. Because I really, I want to see what, what is real for people. And if someone is inundated with guilt, about working a lot, or not working a lot, or not being creative or not lending baby food in their home, blender, whatever. I think it's really important that they not avoid that, and that they actually say, Gosh, I feel really ashamed and guilty that I'm feeding my kid food from a pouch instead of you know, homemade. And what's that about? Right? It's another example of how we can kind of turn the arrow back at ourselves, and really invite ourselves into inner work around. What is this guilt? What is it reflecting about me? Where did it come from? Maybe it's even a lineage pattern that has been alive for generations in my own family. And how many women in my family felt unsupported as mothers? I don't know, because they didn't talk about it until maybe this generation. That's so true, isn't it? And I feel like because we're all talking about it, it takes the sting out of it a bit. You don't have to feel guilty for feeling guilty. You know, for one of a better description, it's, you know, it exists. I hate it. I think it's a load of, I hate it so much. I wish it didn't exist, but and I think that's why I like talking about it, because the more we talk about it, you know, like I said, it, it takes a feel like it takes the power out of it. Because once it's named, it's almost like I don't know, I'm trying, I had this thought come through my head, like, you know, like, if it's a monster, it doesn't exist, but it scares you. But then you discover that it exists. And then you realize it's actually doesn't have power over you. I don't know, that's a really long pole to try. And I've been watching a lot of Avengers lately. Like you said it, you'd name it, you own it, and then you can do the work on and it doesn't hold that control power fear over you because you like facing it head on and, and doing something about it. Yes, I think even though so many moms are now talking about mom guilt in a way that's really supportive and compassionate, there still is a huge part of the world that isn't talking about it. And that's laying those old narratives on motherhood. So I think it's really important for moms to find their people who can support them, and who can align with the type of authenticity that lets you feel guilty and supports you in your guilt and helps you to not feel alone and to work through it. Because if you're an authentic person, in an inauthentic system, it's gonna feel really invalidating and it's gonna, it's gonna crush you in you're not going to continue to express that because it's, it's not being validated. You just have to feel like you're pushed down. Yeah, that's really important. Isn't it about finding, finding the people that share your views? And have that, again, that authenticity? It's keep coming back to that word, but it's so true, isn't it? Yes. And I think there's a lot there about aligned relationships. You know, people like the buzzwords like toxic relationships, or that person's a narcissist or whatever. But if you just take all the labels away, and it's just about alignment or misalignment, you know, it doesn't make anyone bad or wrong. It just makes them misaligned with you. So then you go find your people who you can be more aligned with so that you have that congruence. See and that feeling of resonance when you're with people who actually see you and support you for who you are not for some charade that you're pretending to uphold. Yeah. Pardon me? That is That is so true. What sort of role do you feel like social media has to play in all this sort of guilt driving and judgment sort of thing? I think it's kind of the both sides of the coin, I think you can find that support and that authenticity. I think there's people like you and like me who are on social media trying to spread this compassion and this authenticity. And I think you can easily get down the rabbit hole of really narrow minded, rigid thinking that is related to old narratives and a lot of guilt and shame. So I think you have to be discerning with social media. Yeah, it's that same thing, as in real life is in finding those people, finding your tribe, and following the people that you don't allied with. Right, yeah. And I also think it's important to remember that what you see on social media isn't always the truth. It's hardly ever the truth. So it's everyone that you see on social media is smiling with their new baby, and they look so happy. I think it's important to remind yourself like, maybe that's partially true. But what am I not seeing about what's hard for this person, and just know that the snapshots on Facebook or Instagram are just snapshots there, they don't have depth of reality. And if you want more depth of reality, find real live humans to go spend time with instead of social media feeds. Yeah, that's really, really good advice. Because there are a lot of rabbit holes to fall down into, on social media. I find in terms of unfollowing, I'll go through phases where I felt I'll be on a different sort of tracks or follow a lot of people in that sort of area. And then all of a sudden, one day, I'll just go, Ah, no, I don't want that anymore. And I will just go through and unfollow, unfollow, and then another day, I'll find something. It's really interesting how you like, depending how your thoughts have evolved, you know, maybe you've been surrounding yourself with people that have allowed you to see things in a different way or opens your mind to a different way of thinking and then you go, Oh, actually, that stuff doesn't feel right anymore. You know, it's there's nothing wrong with doing that. Yes, that's clearing, right? So when we grow and we learn new things, we see the world through a new way, we naturally need to let go of what no longer aligns, so that we can create space for what does align, because you can't just fill yourself and your social media feed endlessly, you have to clear to let in. I once heard, I've had a few readings with psychic mediums over the years. And one of my favorites, he told me, you only have a certain amount of room in your backpack. So you know, you have to take out things sometimes to be able to fit those new things in. So I sort of use that sort of visual analogy that, you know, you can only carry so much. I love that. And it's important to be discerning. Yeah, absolutely. The other topic about identity and you touched on it. When you were talking about writing your book when your son was three months old. Let's just talk about that a bit more. So that shift that we go through. And I everyone feels this differently, too, which is awesome. Which, you know, we talked about earlier, everyone's motherhood journey is so different. Personally, the feelings you were feeling, can you sort of share a bit more about that? About what felt hard at that time? Yeah. And I guess about how, if you felt like, you know, your previous say, your previous self, you're still the same person. But, you know, you were changing into this, this mother role. How that sort of felt that transition? Oh, yes. Well, I think what made it so hard was that it was so abrupt that you know, during pregnancy, I was so happy. I loved with both of my pregnancies. It felt like an immensely spiritual experience. I felt like a vessel I felt like oh my gosh, like if the aliens could see how we make people they would be amazed. It's just so it's incredible. So even when I felt nauseous or, you know, when I was 30 pounds heavier than I was used to being, I was like, This is amazing. Yeah, I had such a great experience. And then, right at the end of my pregnancy with my son with my firstborn, our midwife found out that he was breech. And they were like, Oh, well, we're gonna have to flip this baby. And I'm like, what is that a thing. And so I tend to get very urgent about, like, when something is abnormal, medically, I just have my own anxiety triggers around health and medical stuff. And so I was like, Okay, we gotta flip this baby. And it pregnancy stopped being enjoyable, and it started feeling stressful. And I kid you not, I read somewhere that I was supposed to do a handstand and go upside down in a swimming pool to turn my baby. So if you can imagine someone at eight months pregnant, like trying to do a handstand, in the swimming pool, in like, community swimming pool with all of these people, it was humiliating. But I was so committed, I'm like, You're gonna turn this baby. Like, it didn't work, you know, it's such a silly thing. And so I tried that I did Chinese Chinese medicine called moxibustion. And I was, it's like this little, like a charcoal lit charcoal thing that you put close to a chakra. And it energetically is supposed to help, whatever it didn't do it. But what it did do is it triggered labor. And so I went into labor, just in this really stressful state of being like, my baby's not coming out the way I want my baby to come out. So that went into a birth, that was a cesarean after I was really attached to the idea of a vaginal birth. And then my baby was born with a bilateral pneumothorax, which is a puncture in each of his lungs. And so he had to go to NICU and we didn't get to bond. And I didn't get to hold him. And I was like, strapped down on a table with a open surgical wound. And it was just so different than what I envisioned. And so I was set up for motherhood, like with this trauma. And so I think, I actually think now, you know, nine years later, I look back and I'm like, Well, I learned my first lesson of motherhood, right off the bat, that I'm not in control of everything anymore. And my rigid thinking and my attachment to what I want and how I want it needs to soften and it needs to be more flexible. And so that was probably the hardest transition for me was that it was just this very abrupt sort of message that was in my face, like you are not in control. And you have got to learn how to be more flexible. Just while you're saying that I'm getting goosebumps, because that literally feels like the message that I was given. similar sort of, you know, I had all these expectations I had my first baby was a vaginal birth, but he was very quick. So I had this idea that this time my waters would break, everything would be, you know, planned and go to nap, we had a very traumatic scenario. And same thing, he was a, he was very tiny. But he, he was fully developed. But he was very tiny. Because it turned out my placenta had stopped working after 26 weeks, and no one don't know how no one discovered it. So then he was away from me for a while. So I had this, I just kept like, right from the beginning, he had to have formula. So that control I had in my last, my last baby, that I had to feed him against all odds, I was going to feed this child that was taken away from me. So it was like, Okay, you are really not in control of this. And you you're being forced to let go of these, you know, these beliefs that you are holding on to. And then when I got him back, I just had these, I just kept hearing in my head, just keep him close, keep him close. So I would just sit and hold him and nurse him and he'd sleep and I'd miss him. And it just was completely different to my first child. And I'm so glad that I was thrown all those curveballs because it just made me completely relaxed and and go, there is no routine, there is no predictability. And I was happy with that. And it was weird because I've never been happy with that. Like when I was five years old, on my first gig performing on stage, it was just at a school Christmas concert. The teacher held the microphone for me and she wasn't holding it in the right spot. So I pulled it closer. You know, this has been me my whole life. It's good. Try it Hmm, yeah, very suddenly and violently, and traumatically. That was all taken away from me. And I'm so grateful for that. Now, you know, in hindsight, the lessons that I've learned, although at the time was pretty full on that, you know, I've always, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. It's amazing, isn't it? Because I save the children choose us for the lessons we have to learn in this life. So it's prevalent? Yeah, I think we choose our families. So talking more about yourself in the work that you're doing? Can you share what you've sort of got coming up or anything you want to share about the work that you're doing? Yes, I actually have a huge movement that I am in right now with my business, I am in the process of transforming my private therapy practice into a large scale mental health platform called the Radiant Life project. And the Radiant Life project is all about helping people find that radiance, and that glow. That is part of our human birthright. But we forget, and we get stuck in our mental illnesses, and we get stuck on autopilot. And so this is about really getting unstuck, whether you're a mother, whether you're not a mother, whether you're a man or a woman, or non binary, anyone, this is about lighting your life up from the inside out and feeling full and resourced. Not without challenges in your life, but with the challenges and feeling empowered to live as a whole person. So I have a new book that I'm working on, that's almost ready to go to publishing called the Radiant Life project. And it's a big download of my 15 plus years of clinical experience, plus some of my own personal journey. And I've also got some courses coming up that will be available on my website. And I'll be offering retreats and workshops that are all geared toward helping people build a radiant life. Wow, that sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you. That's fantastic. Thank you, I am so excited by it, I actually took a three month sabbatical from my therapy practice because I got really burned out working sort of on the frontlines as a mental health person in the pandemic. And I thought I was just going to spend my sabbatical like curled up in bed watching movies, but actually, I have felt so energized and so excited about the Radiant Life project that I am just writing, and building and creating and making art and talking to people like you and it feels, talk about alignment, it feels very aligned. That's wonderful. I can just see your face like literally radiant, as you told me about it. It's just wonderful. Thank you. So share with us, what's the name of your website where people can best find you and find out more information. Yes, the website is the Radiant Life project.com. And you can also follow me on Instagram at the Radiant Life project. I'm I'm posting reels every other day with little therapeutic tidbits and kind of helpful, helpful little gems for people. And I have a free newsletter that I'm sending out once a month that gives inspirations and little offerings and keeps people up to date with my new releases and the progress of my book. So if you want to be part of my mailing list, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website, which is the Radiant Life project.com And that's probably the best way to reach me. Awesome. I'm glad you mentioned about your Instagram because I do enjoy your reels. And there's something very soothing about your voice too. I must say when you're sharing you know little tips about I think one was how you had to give a good apology like the three steps and there was another one about boundaries that I really liked. But the way you present them is just so it makes To stop scrolling and just go, ah, like, it's just so calming. And I don't know really connective, if that's not the word, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, again, it feels like you're right there, you're talking, you're talking to me. And you're saying, Allison, this is this is a thing you should be listening to. Thank you. That is my intention. And I am trying to, I'm trying to give away free support for people and Instagram as a great resource for people. And so I really am, you know, these aren't like promotional videos that I'm trying to hook people, I'm really just trying to give away knowledge that people can use to support themselves. Because the Radiant Life project is not about using anyone else as a crutch or expecting anyone else to rescue you. It's about doing it from the inside out. And, and being so radiant, that it extends through and beyond you and affects the world. Absolutely. We need to sit there about doing the work yourself. And there's no one's going to do it for you. When I was in the real depths of my postnatal depression, with my second child, I had that exact feeling I had, and it was incredibly daunting, and scary. But on the other hand, it was so empowering, it was like, no one can help me, and a fearful thing, but then it was like, Uh, no one can help me because I'm capable of doing this, I can do this. So it was like, flicking the switch. It's, it's scary, when you know, you've got to do it yourself. And when you're not in a great place, you know, in your own head, they can feel like the worst news in the world. Like, literally, you want someone to save you, you want someone to fix you. But working with someone like yourself, you know, a trained professional, you will have assistants, but at the end of the day, it is you that goes deep inside you and changes, you know, whether it's, you know, the habits or the way you think about you yourself, think about the world, all that sort of stuff is on you. And I think I learned that during my sabbatical it, it took me 15 years of clinical practice to realize that, oh, I don't want these people to need me, I want these people to not need me. Yo, now I'll be going back to this Radiant Life project with the new perspective of I'm here as a guide and as a supportive resource. But ultimately, this is your show. This is your life. So reclaim it. Yeah, let's see. So well said I love that. And also just a point I wanted to mention, you are trained and experienced, like you said, 15 years of clinical experience, it really annoys me when I see people on Instagram sprouting out do this, do that, whatever. And they know they have none of that. So just to point out the you actually know things. Thank you. You're right, there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. So make sure you know as people are being discerning about aligned relationships and the right resources, make sure that the support that you receive is from credible places. All right, well, I'll let you lead the way, Kate with this reading using your beautiful deck. Okay, thank you. So what I always do with this is, I just want the cards to know that this is for you and not me. So I just sort of say to the cards. This is a reading for Alison. Okay, so would you like to stick with your your three card? Pull? You do whatever feels right over there. But I'm gonna leave it up to you. Do you have any specific questions or any specific? Anything that's on your mind that you're curious about? Look, I'd like to just know that where I'm at right now I'm actually feeling because I see my full disclosure, I see my therapist monthly. So I do a lot of work. And I feel like right at this moment in time, I actually had a mental health check with my doctor this morning. And you know, we have this thing over here called a I think it's called K 10. And you check, no, based on the last four weeks, have you experienced different emotions or situations. And mine was the lowest score I think it's ever been ever so right now I'm going really good. So I guess I just like, you know, some feedback on that, I suppose. Yes, that's perfect. How about like, why are you feeling so well? What's working? Yeah, And what are some areas of? Oh, I got it. Okay, what's working? What is an area of growth that you can work through now that you have so much strength? And I'm wondering if maybe there was something to let go of now. So maybe I'll pull three. Yep, that sounds awesome. Okay, so the first one is Why are you feeling so good? Okay, and the second one is what area of growth feels accessible now that you're so resourced? Okay, and the third one is, what can you let go of? What do you no longer need? All right. So I'll give you these three. And then if we need an additional minute, sometimes we need one more card. So we'll see. So why are you feeling so good. This is the card that I pulled. And this is the card of companionship, this is a relational card. And for you, this could mean anything from like, either not being codependent, like just coexisting peacefully with people or it could mean that you have a new kind of support or a connection that's really sustaining and filling you up. But this is about kind of like peaceful coexistence and relationships. Yeah. And I'll screenshot these these cards and put them in the show notes for everyone. But it's, it's a pair of Dragon is it to dragonflies and flowers, and then color that is my color, that background? That's like that aqua, sort of It's a mixture between throat chakra and the heart chakra. It's kind of that that really beautiful Aqua. Love that. That's beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Okay, so number two, now that you're in a strong place, what work can you do? So this is the card that's about being both rooted, and also free. So the work now is kind of working with this binary that you don't have to be so grounded that you don't fly, and you don't have to be so airy, that you're ungrounded. So the work now is about having both Hmm. It's finding that balance, isn't that? Which kind of Yeah, you should, one sorry to cut you off. I'm usually one way or the other, I made the Full Tilt one way or nothing. So this card is telling you that now that you're in such a strong place in your life, it's time for you to kind of have a fusion of Mind Body Spirit, and not be only in one or the other. Yep, yeah. So where can you can you describe that? That beautiful picture? Fairly? Yes. So this is a an image of a figure that has sort of golden energy coming in through the crown chakra at the top of their head and moving through the body, and actually growing roots that reach down into the earth all the way down to sort of the molten lava core where there are pure crystalline energies and resources. And the figure also has large wings that are open and expanding and kind of taking off. Yeah, I have a thing with wings, we fly with feathers, I collect a lot of flat Earth, this flower girl articulates a lot of flowers, too. But wings is a big thing for me. Yes, I also love wings, well, then you're gonna like this one, too. So your third part, which is about what to let go of. This is an image that's about like magical thinking, this is about I think what this message is, is that you should let go of the sort of spiritual bypassing of avoiding things by being too kind of too spiritual, and not actually facing what's real. There is magic in the world. And there is spirituality in the world. And we can also use them as avoidance mechanisms. So I think that this card is asking you to release that. Hmm, that definitely makes sense. I love how you're, you're female, I guess presuming it's a female figure there has got the wing on one side. And then it's sort of like it's reality, and, and sort of the spiritual world sort of shining one figure and if that makes sense, and the columns and it's similar to your second card with sort of a feeling of grounding, but also flying at the same time. And I think that's part of the message with With when you don't want to let go of all of your magic, you don't want to let go of your spirituality that's important. You just want to let go of the parts that are keeping you from doing the work you need to do. Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like I can use it as a justification to avoid things. I think you just said that. Yeah. Yes. John Wellwood has a term called spiritual bypassing. And it is just all about how we use spirituality to avoid things. And it's not that's not a healthy use of spirituality. Yeah. I love that. So do you need do you need another car? Do you feel like there's any anything lingering? No, I don't actually, I feel like that's, that's actually incredibly spot on. That's, and it's really not, I've always felt really reassured after having cards pulled like, it just feels like a nice warm hug from the universe. And, you know, there's, there's never, I don't know, all the all the decks I've ever read. If they want to tell you, you know, to improve on something, it's always in a kind way, you know, they're never gonna pound you on the head with a with a horrible, you know, mean thing. But you know, they're looking after. So if there's things I need to say, they'll tell us, you know? Yes, I talk about it as like the shadow side and the sunny side where everything has the shadow like Carl Jung talked about in his in his groundbreaking psychological work. But there's a dark side to everything. But there's also a bright side to everything. And if you can find the place where you can hold both and glean the gifts from both than that's like holistic, balanced living, right is not getting too lost in the shadows or too blinded by the light. It's getting that union the Yang sort of just it's balanced. Yes. Balance. Yes. Oh, look, thank you. That is just, ah, I feel very special. And everyone listening, you should feel special, because that's the very first time we've ever had a reading on the podcast. So thank you, Kate, for sharing that with us. You're welcome. And you'll be can people purchase your cards from your website as well? Yes. So at the Radiant Life project.com There's a page where you can purchase the deck, you could purchase the book, the authentic Mother, you can also purchase prints of my artwork. Oh, lovely. Excellent on thank you I have just had a such a lovely morning chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just so welcome. I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.