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7 Chelsea McCrae Australian podcaster 7 Article # 11 August 2023 Hello! I'm Chelsea McCrae (she/her), a mother, teacher, and, more recently, the founder, producer, and host of my podcast, Definitely Baby. Over the past 4 years, I have developed a deep love for podcasts. However, it was only after becoming a mother that I felt compelled to start my own. During my pregnancy, I found solace in listening to birth stories, and after giving birth, I longed to hear from other parents about their postpartum experiences. As the first among my friends to have a baby, I often felt isolated in those early days of parenthood. Around 3-4 months after giving birth, I experienced a surge of creative energy, leading to the idea of writing a children's book with my best friend and creating this podcast. However, I soon found myself grappling with my anxiety, and parenting became all-consuming for a while. Balancing this with running our own English tuition business, my partner and I resumed classes when our daughter turned 4 months old. Creating the book never took off, but the idea for the podcast stuck. But it took until her first birthday for me to fully dive into recording episodes, and it was another 3-4 months before the pod was launched. Despite having a minor in journalism from my undergraduate studies at Monash University, I quickly realised that I was ill-prepared to produce a podcast as a one-woman show. It has been a tremendous learning experience, but I am grateful for the supportive community it has created and the connections I have made with fellow parents. I finally feel like I'm finding my rhythm with it now. My family consists of myself, my partner Hagan (he/him), and our daughter, Hazel, who is currently 20 months old. Additionally, I am currently 14 weeks pregnant with our second baby, who is expected to join us in late December or early January. Starting a podcast has been an incredible journey, albeit one that has made my weeks incredibly busy. As fellow podcasters can attest, podcasting is a labour of love that offers minimal financial incentives. It often takes years, especially for those without a preexisting social media following, to monetize their podcasts. When I first embarked on this venture, I naively believed that growing a listenership organically would be easier and that my podcast would gain traction more rapidly. Currently, I follow a scheduling pattern where I book 2-3 interviews for a few weeks, followed by a few weeks without interviews. This approach allows me to dedicate my podcasting time to editing the recorded episodes. With about 3-4 days already occupied by work for our tuition business, my weeks are already quite busy, and I have to find a way to fit podcasting into my schedule. Hazel starting daycare recently has provided me with some much-needed ease and flexibility, and I'm thrilled to see how much she enjoys it now. However, there are moments when I worry that the additional workload brought on by podcasting may take away time with Hazel. I question whether it's truly worth it. But then, a heartwarming message from a listener or a guest expressing their gratitude for their experience after recording an episode reminds me of the power of sharing our stories and reinforces the purpose behind creating this podcast. Looking back, I wish I had known the true extent of the challenges and time commitment involved, sometimes with minimal perceived gains. Also, I realise now that I should have conducted more thorough research to understand the vast number of parenting podcasts already in existence. Although I initially thought I was filling a unique niche, I have since discovered numerous podcasts with a similar format to mine. However, this realisation is not necessarily negative, as sharing our stories and shedding light on these topics is an invaluable endeavour. For anyone considering starting a podcast, I highly recommend conducting extensive research, connecting with individuals in the field (fellow podcasters are often willing to share their experiences and answer questions), and identifying a niche that aligns with your values. To be honest, I often find myself editing portions of episodes or working on social media tasks after Hazel has gone to sleep. While I'm becoming more efficient in the podcasting process over time, I recognise the need to establish new methods and dedicated time for this work. It's crucial to avoid encroaching on my already limited "me" time to ensure long-term sustainability. Also, being pregnant again requires me to be kinder to myself and seek ways to lighten my workload, particularly in the coming months as I near my due date. I've considered the possibility of hiring someone to assist me with editing, mastering episodes, or creating social media content. However, given the current circumstances, it's not feasible at the moment. Perhaps in the future, this could be a step I take to continue producing this beautiful content. I have had the opportunity to connect with numerous amazing individuals who also host podcasts. The podcasting community has been incredibly welcoming and generous in sharing advice and their personal experiences. From what I have observed, balancing parenting, work, and podcasting is a significant challenge, and it seems that everyone else faces similar struggles as well. I have drawn significant inspiration from the experiences and advice shared by fellow podcasters in my niche. Their valuable tips have guided me in implementing time-saving strategies for my podcast and have made it easier to integrate into my weekly routine. "I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel." As mentioned earlier, the podcast community has been incredibly encouraging and supportive. Even though most of my friends do not have children themselves, they have been wonderfully supportive throughout this journey. A friend who has their own podcast generously taught me everything about setting up an RSS feed, scheduling episodes, and the process of recording. My partner contributed by composing the intro tune and recording it with a producer friend. That same friend also mastered the initial 4 or 5 episodes of the podcast and provided valuable tips on sound quality. Additionally, another wonderful friend designed the original logo, and a talented photographer friend captured beautiful photos of Hazel and me, one of which I have used for the new logo. Lastly, I am grateful for all my amazing friends with kids who agreed to be part of the first 6 episodes that I recorded prior to the release, as well as all the wonderful people who continue to share their stories on the podcast. I couldn't have started the podcast or continued with it without the support network I have. It has played a crucial role in motivating me to persist and has alleviated a significant amount of pressure in the initial stages. Their encouragement and assistance have had a positive impact on my work, art, and overall creativity. Absolutely. I personally experienced the concept of "mum guilt" during my early parenting journey, especially when I didn't have close friends who were going through the same challenges. Connecting with my local New Parent's Group and spending time with other mums helped me realise that comparison, shame, and guilt were common emotions in parenting. Initially, I felt inadequate compared to others who seemed to have everything figured out regarding sleep, feeding, and routines. However, as we got to know each other on a more personal level, I discovered that we were all struggling and none of us had it all together. One triggering factor for my "mum guilt" was questions about Hazel's sleep habits, as it was a particularly challenging topic for me in the first year. Additionally, when I started working again for our own business when Hazel was four months old, I felt guilty for not being with her enough, especially during evening classes when she would cry for me as I left for work. In the early months of Hazel's life, leaving her would often trigger intense "mum guilt" for me. It was challenging for me to enjoy myself or have "me time" because I constantly worried about her crying, being hungry, or needing comfort. However, as she grew more independent after her first birthday, I started to find it easier to enjoy time away from her, making parenthood feel less overwhelming and more manageable. Regarding my creativity and starting the podcast, the transition felt relatively smooth. While it can be overwhelming at times and requires a significant amount of work, the fact that the podcast's topic is deeply rooted in parenting helps alleviate some of my "mum guilt" when I invest time into it. The only concern I have is occasionally worrying that it may take away more time from Hazel. In summary, "mum guilt" has influenced my early parenting journey, particularly when comparing myself to others. However, as I formed connections with fellow parents and gained more confidence in my abilities, the intensity of "mum guilt" diminished. Starting the podcast has provided a creative outlet that aligns with parenting, and although it can be demanding, it doesn't trigger the same level of guilt as other aspects of life. Becoming a mother brought about a significant transformation in my sense of identity. This change was amplified by the circumstances surrounding my pregnancy, as it came at a time when I was completing my Masters degree and navigating a new relationship. Motherhood has unexpectedly provided me with a sense of purpose that I didn't realise I was missing. It has anchored me and instilled a newfound confidence within me. I now embrace the role of "mother" wholeheartedly and it has become a central aspect of my identity. While I don't specifically resonate with the idea of needing to be "more than a mother," I do recognize the importance of maintaining my individuality. It's crucial for me to engage in activities that nurture my well-being, such as staying active, spending time with friends, and pursuing personal interests. These aspects contribute to my sense of fulfilment and enable me to be the best version of myself as a mother to Hazel. As she grows older, I want to demonstrate the value of self-care and pursuing passions, and I hope to inspire her through my actions and the values I hold. Starting this podcast has become a significant passion of mine. I firmly believe in the power of sharing stories and creating a supportive and inspiring resource for other parents and individuals alike. I take immense pride in the effort and time I invest in building this podcast and fostering a supportive community. It's something I hope my children can someday admire in me, as it aligns with the values I strive to instil in them. The work of a mother, in general, is ridiculously underrated. The paid maternity leave we are given is so minimal, and women often take off more time than their work allows due to personal preferences. Consequently, there is a significant period without contributing to superannuation. Motherhood is, by far, the hardest, most time-consuming, and relentless job I have ever experienced. As for my podcast, it does not generate any income; in fact, I spend close to $100 per month on recording and editing platforms. The prospect of monetizing it seems distant, and this long-term impact affects how I perceive its value. While it remains my passion project, it demands a substantial portion of my time, leaving me uncertain about its sustainability going forward. Nevertheless, I must continue to nurture my love for it. I firmly believe that the work of artists, especially mothers who are also artists, is highly undervalued by society. "I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations." I was raised by a single mother, and due to her status as a single parent, she had no choice but to continue working from when I was a young age. She worked as an independent midwife, which meant that there were times when I stayed with family members or friends while she attended births. As I grew older, I even had the opportunity to accompany her to some of these births. Since she was self-employed and had a flexible schedule, she was able to spend a significant amount of time with me. Additionally, we had the chance to travel and also moved towns and states a lot. These experiences of being raised by a working single mother instilled in me a strong sense of independence. I have always rejected the notion of the heteronormative, patriarchal perspective that perpetuates traditional societal norms and expectations, assuming rigid gender roles where mothers are primarily responsible for parenting, cooking, and cleaning. As a result, it is extremely important to me that my children see both Hagan and me as equals in terms of our careers and the shared responsibilities of parenting. This value holds particular significance in raising my daughters. I aspire to model a range of values and qualities to my daughters, including financial and cultural independence, as well as the importance of self-discovery, empathy, and embracing their unique interests and aspirations. My podcast, Definitely Baby , is available on most major platforms. Simply search 'Definitely Baby' and it should come up. You can also find me on Instagram @definitelybabypodcast, where I share beautiful photos of our weekly guests, segments from episodes, and updates about my life and the podcast. Each week, I release a main episode featuring interviews with different parents, exploring their beautiful and unique parenting journeys. I ask each guest a similar set of questions to capture a diverse range of stories on the same topics. Additionally, I occasionally release bonus episodes where I delve into interesting topics with experts. I'm also excited to introduce two new upcoming segments.The first segment features casual chats with mums and parents discussing various topics related to parenthood. Think of it as eavesdropping on a parent's group catch-up and gossip. The second segment, which I'm incredibly thrilled about, focuses on VBAC (Vaginal Birth After Caesarean). As I'm personally planning for a VBAC later this year, I'm deeply passionate about providing a resource to empower others to make informed choices. I already have lined up a few exciting experts as guests, and I believe it will be an incredibly special series. So, for anyone out there who is considering whether VBAC is the right option for them, planning for one, or knows someone who is, keep your eyes peeled for this upcoming series! It's going to be a valuable resource. Contact Chelsea Links: Spotify / Apple Podcasts / Instagram BACK

Kate King US counsellor + art therapist S2 Ep60 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Kate King, a licensed professional counsellor and a certified art therapist, and a mom of of 2 based in Boulder Colorado. USA Kate grew up with a lot of art around her, her grandmother was always very creative as were her parents, her dad was a stone sculptor. Her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketch books that she would always carry around with her. Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already before knowing what it really was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver where Kate graduated with a dual Bachelor’s Degree in Psychology and Art. It wasn't until she completed College that she googled what to do with these studies and found art therapy. From there Kate eagerly pursued post-graduate education at Naropa University (a Buddhist-inspired school in Boulder, CO) where she earned a Master’s Degree in Transpersonal Counselling Psychology and Art Therapy. Kate is a Licensed Professional Counsellor and Board Certified and Registered Art Therapist. Her private practice is a colourful, creative, cozy space located in the Ken Caryl area of Littleton, Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, The Radiant Life Project , Kate offers a holistic, preventive health perspective which incorporates verbal, creative, and body-centred therapy skills and techniques. She operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical, and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path, and re-creating their story along the way. Kate began writing her book The Authentic Mother - Creative Art Engagement to Support the New Parent when her son was 3 months old, as she was unable to find a book that could help her in the creative way she was seeking. Kate has also created a set of oracle cards, The Ink & Wings Oracle Deck , and I was fortunate enough to receive a reading from Kate in this podcast! If you are interested you can take a look at the cards she drew for me here Connect with Kate website / instagram / facebook / youtube Connect with the podcast - website / instagram *** This episode contains discussion around mental health, anxiety, post natal depression and birth trauma. *** If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest this week on the podcast is Kate King. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and a certified Art Therapist, as well as being a mom of two based in Boulder, Colorado in the United States. Kate grew up with a lot of art around her. Her grandmother was always very creative, as were her parents. Her dad was a stone sculptor, her family supported expression through creativity. Kate had a number of black sketchbooks that she would always carry around with her. And Kate was actually doing a lot of art therapy already, before really knowing what it was. Her formal schooling began at the University of Denver, where Kate graduated with a dual bachelor's degree in psychology and art. It wasn't until she completed college that she Googled what to do with these two modalities and found art therapy. From there, Kate eagerly pursued postgraduate education at Naropa University, a Buddhist inspired school in Boulder, Colorado, where she earned a master's degree in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Kate is a licensed professional counselor, and board certified and registered art therapist. Her private practice is a colorful, creative and cozy space located in the ken Carroll area of Littleton in Colorado. Under the umbrella of her business, the Radiant Life Project, Kate offers a holistic preventative health perspective, which incorporates verbal, creative and body centered therapy skills and techniques. Kate operates from a perspective that considers each person in their mental, spiritual, physical and emotional entirety. It is her genuine belief that each person is capable of choosing their life's path and recreating their story along the way. If today's episode is triggering for you at all, I encourage you to seek help from those around you medical professionals or from resources online. I have compiled a list of great international resources on my website, Alison newman.net/podcast. This episode contains discussions around mental health, anxiety, postnatal depression and birth trauma. The music used on today's episode is from my new age, Ambient Music trio called LM Joe and is used with permission. Lm j is myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you so much for being a part of this. It's really it's lovely to meet you. It's lovely to meet you. I'm grateful to be here. Yeah. So whereabouts are you in the US? I am in Denver, Colorado. Yeah, right. That's pretty nice there, isn't it? It's beautiful. And very close to the infamous Red Rocks. concert venue. So I don't know if you've heard of that. But it's really pretty place. Yeah, right. So what time of year is over there now? You're in your summer, aren't you? Yes. This is the hottest time of the summer for us. Yeah, right. So jealous of where you are. I would love to be winter right now. Don't be jealous. It's horrible. Here. It is just fair. I just, we've just come back from a week up in Queensland where it's like nicer. Because it's just so gray. Like I can deal with cold but I just can't deal with lack of sunshine. Like it's just just gray. And it just makes me annoyed. And yeah, you're like in Colorado. We have like 300 days of sunshine here. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Don't tempt me. That sounds really. Maybe it's time for a vacation. Yeah, I've actually never been to America. So there you go. And I've never been Where You Live either so I would love to visit. Australia is pretty good. A lot Australia. Yes, I've heard beautiful things you after your name, you've got lots of letters. Can you just just tell us what, what you what you do? Yes. So the M A is representative of my master's degree, which is in transpersonal, Counseling Psychology and art therapy. Transpersonal Counseling Psychology is a form of psychology that considers where the psyche and the spirit meet. And so there's a lot of influences around spirituality and just kind of open mindedness and open heartedness into different traditions and modalities. So that's the MA, the LPC is my Licensed Professional Counselor certification. So that's my therapy license here in the state of Colorado. And the ATR since I wrote this book, actually, I have a new credential now it's ATR dash BC, which stands for board certified registered art therapist. And so that's a art therapy designation. Excellent. So going right back to the beginning, I guess, how did you first get interested in? Was it the art that came first? Or sort of the thinking about people? Like how did you sort of get drawn into this sort of area? Yeah, it was the art. My my family is sort of creative at the roots. My grandmother was always very creative. My dad is a stone sculptor. And so I had a lot of art surrounding me growing up, and my family really supported just expressing that way. And I used to have these black sketchbooks that I just would fill with drawings, I would carry these with me everywhere I went, I had bookshelves filled with them. And, you know, they were, I wouldn't go anywhere with them. They were always with me. And so I think I was doing art therapy on myself before I knew what it was. It wasn't until I was about to graduate from college. And I had a Bachelors of Arts Degree and a psychology degree in a double bachelor's focus that I was like, What do I do with my life? And I actually Googled, what do you do with an art degree and a psychology degree? And that's how I first learned about art therapy from Google. Yeah. And then did you sort of go, this feels very familiar to me, like, Was it something that just sat naturally with you anyway? Yes, it resonated so strongly that I just, I stopped really looking and I just started looking for a graduate program where I could really studied what I wanted to study. And I ended up at a school here in Colorado called Naropa University that was founded by a Buddhist monk. And it has a strong background of meditation and different kinds of spiritual practices. And so the coming together of science and spirituality and creativity and psychology, it was just like, everything that I was interested in. Yeah, that sounds amazing. I didn't actually know that places like that existed. That is really cool. It is very cool. I did not know either, until I plugged them into Google. So for people who aren't familiar, how would you describe art therapy? Art Therapy is it's a form of, there's actually two different schools of art therapy. One is considered art as therapy, which is that the art is inherently healing, and you don't really need to talk about it, do anything, you know, just creating heals things within us because it helps us to sublimate or move the energy through our body and out from us in a way that's productive. And the other school of art therapy is art as psychotherapy, which is more of what I do in my private practice where I would provide specific directives, kind of projects for people that are designed with the intention of helping them investigate what's going on in their lives and have sort of a visual representation of that, rather than just the talking that we normally do in therapy, which can so often, kind of people can Avoid talking about certain things, or they can hide information from themselves from their therapists that way. But art therapy is just a really gentle kind of backdoor into the psyche that allows you to work through the metaphor of color, and line and shape and image. So you see what you're ready to see in your art. And the art therapist can sort of gently reflect like, wow, it looks like you only used you know the color blue today, what does blue mean to you? And then we can sort of have a collaborative dialogue about what this symbology looks like in your life and how your art can be kind of a roadmap for your psyche? Hmm. Do you find then that people that what actually comes out of people is often it's it's things that you can't put words to generally, because it's so deep, maybe people don't even realize what they're bringing out of themselves? If that makes sense. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, people, they don't know, they don't expect the art to move through them in the way it does. But usually, once they do create something, it's easier to talk about it because it already exists in some form. Now that they've made it, it doesn't feel so pent up. And sometimes talking about things through metaphor just feels a lot safer. Instead of someone talking about their trauma, they can talk about the, you know, the lightning bolts that are in their imagery, and that holds the kind of energy of that trauma without it feeling so triggering that it shuts them down. Hmm. Yeah. So it's a really good way for people to communicate without feeling. I don't know, scared, I suppose that. Yeah, wonderful. It's like a natural titration process where they can, they can kind of go as deep or as as intensive as they want to go. And they don't have to do anything they don't want to do their art kind of helps to guide their comfort. Yeah, yeah, that is really cool. Because I've had my fair share of, of therapy over the years, but I've never done art therapy. And it's sort of a kind of wonder, it's just to see what happens. Especially as a creative person, I'm surprised that surprise, you wouldn't do that. Although, you know, you don't have to be a creative person to benefit from art therapy, I actually, I really enjoy seeing people come to art therapy, who have no art background at all, because they don't have any picture in their mind for making something beautiful or frameable. It's just expression for the sake of expression. And sometimes that takes a lot of pressure off. So for people who are already artists, sometimes we need to move through the layers of like, releasing some of the pressure. And so I'll have them make art with their nondominant hand or with their eyes closed, things like that, so that they don't have that pressure to make something beautiful. Sometimes you need to make something messy or ugly. Yeah, cuz that's the thing is in a restaurant, you're not really addressing the issues. I mean, you're showing new issues, I suppose the the lack of letting go and control and the pressure that you feel and the expectation, whatever. But yeah, perhaps not then allowing you to go into that next layer of what you kind of might need to work through, I suppose. Yeah, yeah. But it's all it's all good work. And I think whatever is ready to be worked on comes up in this session. And so we don't really have to dig too deep. It just shows up, because ultimately, our systems want to heal. Yeah, I've heard that actually like that, that I can't, I don't know how to describe it. But it's like your, your inner, whatever that is, knows where it's supposed to be. And it will do what it needs to do to try and get you there. But then the humaneness of us and the ego stops us from getting there. Right, exactly, yeah, we get in our own way, a lot of the time. Art is a really great way to help to sort of release some of those narratives and just let you connect with the part of you that knows what you need to heal and express and grow. Yeah. Coming back to your own art, what sort of style or is there a way you can describe like the mediums you like working with what what's sort of your art? Yeah, so my art has sort of changed over time. It's interesting. As an art therapist, I know now that the different kinds of art I made over time were reflective of how healed I was in my own psycho emotional process. So what I do now is I love watercolor and goulash like a like the pigmented like the tubes of watercolor, not the palette necessarily because I like it when it's really vibrant. And I also like to draw I like a lot of detail and I love just black rollerball pens, and then sort of working with them together with watercolor can be interesting. But in the beginning for the longest time, most of my life, I it was just black and white, really intense, patterned, organized drawings. And I now know that that was my way of containment and of kind of holding myself together. And as I went through my own therapeutic journey, I was able to explore more with, you know, watercolor that drips and bleeds and it's less than control. I also really liked colored pencil, just colors really vibrant colors are important to me. And lately, I've been drawing a lot of imagery about goddesses and the divine feminine and sort of the celestial. I have pictures with like a goddess with horns and wings and a sun, you know, solar systems. So it gets a little magical for me. Oh, that's so cool. It's interesting, isn't it, there's probably people out there now thinking, they're thinking about the stuff that they make, that they're starving, they're thinking, Oh, I wonder what that means. Like, we can, we can draw so much from what we're doing. And it's interesting, you say how it changes like I, I have times when and this is just me personally, and I'm sure there's people, you know, we change all the time. But there's some days I really like to draw, and I can't draw like I'm not a draw at all. But I love coloring and I love the sound that it makes. And it makes me feel really grounded. Almost like I have an urge to write in lead pencil like that kind of feeling where I don't know back to the earth where you know, it's I don't know how to describe it anyway. And then other days, like the watercolor, you happy to let things just wish wash everywhere and you don't mind if something dripped somewhere? Or well, maybe then you do. And then you go, Oh, actually, no, I don't want to do this today, I need something that's going to stay more I want it to stay. So we sort of change, even, you know, day to day of what we're using, based on how we're feeling and what we're going through, I suppose. Yes, the materials can mirror what we're feeling. And they can also be used to sort of like nudge us when we're ready for growth. So a really controlled person, when they're stable and resourced. Watercolor would be great for them, because it would sort of push them to become more comfortable with less control. And when you practice that with art, your brain starts to become more familiar with that. And then it's more likely to repeat that in other areas of your life that are not art, like maybe your relationships, you don't have as much control. And you're more okay with that. So it kind of pairs well with all of life. Yeah, that just reminded me of a lady I had on the podcast just a couple of weeks ago, Fiona Valentine, and she's in Australia. And her and her husband do classes for businesses, like groups of employees, who want to try and extend their creativity. So they, they get them to draw, and it's something that's achievable. So it's not going to make people feel like alienated that they can do it. And then when they realize that they can actually draw, then it changes those neural pathways. And then like you say, it flows over to the other parts of their life. So the idea is that then it might help them in their work to think differently, or, you know, see things in a different way, I suppose. So it's absolutely a thing, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, yeah, our brains are really malleable. And so if we can find some mechanism that helps to teach our brains to think differently, it affects our whole life, it has a ripple effect that reaches really far. Now, I want to start talking about some of the things you've created. And I'm gonna start about your book fairs, which you've kindly sent me a copy of thank you so much. It's called the authentic mother, creative art engagement to support the new parent and I have read through this and it is sensational. It is really, really, like I was blown away. I really, I wish we shouldn't say things like this, but I wish I had had this when I had my first child because I think it would have made a massive difference to my mental wellness and my journey through mental illness. Can you see We've asked what the sort of impetus was to create it and telling us in your own words, rather than me, telling people what it is to share, share what it is all about. Yes, absolutely. And thank you so much for your kind words, it really, it really is a labor of love. So, I wrote this book in the very beginning stages of my motherhood journey, after I had my first child, probably when he was, I don't know, maybe three months old, I started writing it because I needed a book. And because I was feeling really, like, shocked and lost and overwhelmed by motherhood, because it was not the beautiful picture that everyone said it would be. The birth was totally traumatic, like it was very, very challenging. And so I kept trying to find a support resource. And everything I looked for it was either kind of shaming or not really validating for the truth, it really didn't give a lot of creative support, which was very important to me at that time. And so I just started to journal and write about my experience. And one day when I was journaling about it, I had left it on my computer, and a friend of mine came over. And she saw it, and she's like, What is this? And I told her and she was like, Kate, you have to publish this. This is what so many moms need. And I'm like, no, nobody wants to read this. And so ultimately, that was the beginning. And she said, Yes, moms need this, for sure. And so because it's an art therapy book, it talks a little bit about the neuroscience and kind of the psychological aspects of what happens in the brain in the body when we become mothers, fathers when we all go through this, but it felt important to have real artwork in it. And so I sent out a beacon to moms and I ended up getting over 35 Real moms who don't identify as artists. And they I sent them the directives that I write about in the book. And they made art for the book. And so I have real, real pieces of artwork for the projects and directives that I've designed to help support moms, dads, just new parents, as they're navigating everything from body image stuff to mental health challenges to issues with your family and your in laws and boundaries, cultural expectations. So it's a really wide variety of directives. And the intention here is really just to support that the motherhood experience is very vast and broad and unique for everyone. And it's important that we have a creative outlet for that, so that we don't spiral down to a place where we feel isolated, and things get worse. So literally, that was this book is what helped you and stopped you from doing just that. Man, thank you for sharing it with the world. That fringe, whoever you are, thank you. Because it is so valuable. It's I don't know, I, I, when I was flipping through it, I just kept thinking, I wish I'd known this, I wish I thought like this, I wish I'd had, I wish like literally I wish I had it would have even with my second child when I was seven years older, I had more experience in the world, I was now working in childcare. So I physically knew how to take care of a child. And I kept telling myself, it's not going to be the same, it's gonna be totally different, you know, for all these, whatever reasons, and my personnel depression was far worse than it ever was when my first child. So the talk that like, and you're saying, Hey, you talk about I guess, what's the word, the jargon? I don't know if that's the right word, but of your background, you know, the the psychology behind things, and you know, the neural pathways and what have you. But that's not overwhelming. It's not like you pick it up and you feel alienated by the words, if you know what I mean. Anyone can pick it up without having any understanding or any background or knowledge in that field. So that's really good. So you don't feel you know, you're already going through enough as a new mother. Like, I don't know this, and I don't know that. But you pick this up and it feels familiar. Which is lovely. It's like, if I'm getting really sloppy now but it literally it feels like you're right here next to me if you know what I mean. Like it feels like you're right here. So I'm getting really emotional. Really does it really feels like that and, and I love that you call it the authentic mother because it's you know, because we have all these, you know, versions of what a mom's supposed to be and the good mom and the bad mom and you're not doing this you're not doing that and you're not doing it right. It's like Get rid of all of that those labels, and you go back to who you are, in your core. You're this child's mother and how to sort of look after yourself and keep yourself well. Sorry, that was really blurry. I appreciate it. No, I It really warms my heart that the book has touched you because that was, that was what I so needed. And that was my intention. I wanted people to feel with this book, like they were talking to a friend. And I wanted it to feel accessible to people who wanted to kind of understand what was going on with them, but didn't have the psychology background. So I'm happy to hear that it doesn't feel dense and jargony accessible to you. Because that's, that was my intention. Now, it's lovely. Sorry, I've just raved on so much. But honestly, I just even as I'm sort of thinking that because I want I want to do this stuff in it, I want to use it in a way. I'm not gonna have any more children. But I feel like I could benefit from doing the the exercises and like you said, the directives in here, thinking it from looking at through another lens, perhaps as other issues going on in my life. So Oh, yes, all of legally. All of these directives are applicable outside of early motherhood as well. I mean, I couldn't really honestly flip to any of them. I just flipped to one that was about just creating this called the insecurity image. It's on page 138. And this is just about creating imagery about what you feel insecure about. A new mom to feel insecure. This could be about your workplace, your relationship, your your new gray hairs, like I don't know, it could be about anything. Yeah, let's see, I've just got glasses. I don't want to wear them. Yeah, so any of these are applicable inside of motherhood, outside of motherhood in groups. I've done a lot of these directives with my friends. I've done them with my husband. I've even done them with children because they're really fun. Yeah. So there you go, everyone, even if you're not having another child, you can definitely gain something from this. And something else you you've got that you've made, which you just shared with me before we went live is your I don't want to come to do a column tarot cards, or you call them Oracle Card, Oracle Card. Sorry, yeah, this is the ink and wings, Oracle deck, because you know, my art is magical. And it includes wings. So there you have it. So this is a deck of cards that is comprised of my artwork. And it is very, sort of spiritually rich, and it helps with insight and just gaining navigation for your for your life. I I pull cards almost every day and my kids love it. We pull cards for what you know what's gonna happen today, or what do I need to focus on right now? And it seems like it's always really spot on. I love doing my cards. I often do them overnight when about when I'm about to fall asleep. And I'll do the three card spreads. I will do like the past, present or future. And then other times just there'll be another card that's like poking its head out and like okay, yes, you obviously need to tell me something. And then I've just end up with like, all these. Oh, just one more, just one more. But yeah, I love them. We might. We might talk about them a bit later and possibly do a reading if you're up for that. Oh, yes. I would love to do a reading. That will be a first for the podcast to no one's ever done. I love it. It's always so fun when I do those because I'm like, is this gonna work? And then usually it kind of does. So we'll see if it works. We'll test it out. All right. Ready? Now you mentioned one of your children there when you said he was sorry, he or she I'm not sure was three months old when you started writing the book. Can you share a little bit more about your children? Yes. So my son is named Bridger. And he's nine. So he in this book are about the same age. I birthed them at the same time at the same time they birth myself as a new mom. So I have Bridger who's nine and I have Heidi who is six, and no more babies for me because my hands are so full with those. I can relate to that. So you said you you share your sort of experience with the oracle cards, you're obviously quite sort of open and communicative with the children and share a lot of your things you enjoy, I suppose. Are they into do some art. They do the artwork as well? Yes, yeah, we have set up a designated art space in our home. And so sometimes when it's a weekend and we have some extra time we get Really excited about having our time together. And I had a teacher in graduate school in my art therapy program that always said, you have to lay out your art materials like like you're in a candy store, so that they all just look so enticing, that you just can't wait to dive in. And so we keep our room like that in our home where everything has its place, and it's colorful, and the boxes are open, and you can see what's inside. So the kids will just go into the art space with me, and some days will paint some days will make a big mess, some days will, you know, be very, very tidy and neat. And we'll do collage, we'll do everything. And it is such amazing bonding time. Even my husband will join us sometimes. And he I don't think he identifies as being very creative. But I think he really enjoys it when he's there. What not what I would read it, yeah, and you just kind of get lost in the art process. And we do have, at the end of every year, we have a family vision board kind of ritual where we all go through collages and create imagery about what we want to bring into the next year. And so that has become something my husband has really enjoyed. And he actually invited his father to join us a couple of those years. And it was so fun just having the whole family make vision boards. And then you put up all our vision boards. And it's interesting to see what everyone wants that's similar or different and how they overlap and how they kind of coordinate. So when you had your daughter, then I don't want to say you breeze through it. But did you find it easier because you have those tools and you knew what you needed to do to incorporate your art to help you manage the transition to have? I think it was easier for me? Yes, I think having the tools was a big a big deal. And it really supported me. And also, I think it also helped me that I had already sort of stretched my life around one baby. And so I felt like, you know, there's no, there's no selfishness left, like might as well throw another one in here. While we're while we're the bottomless pit of caregiving. Yes, but it definitely was interesting to have art. When I had my daughter, my son was two and a half. And so he was active in the art process. So we would be able to make art together at that period, which was really a kind of neat thing. So that when the baby was, you know, nursing or sleeping, I had something to do with my son that actually benefited both of us. That's really important, isn't it? Because I feel like a lot of the time, pardon me, the the first child, depending on their age can sort of feel a little bit shafted, like there's a new baby here. And now I'm number two, and I don't like this, and then you can see the sort of perhaps some changes in behavior, you might not like putting it that way. But yeah, to be able to do that you keep your relationship really strong with him. And I guess to its, it allows him to realize that this new little person isn't a threat to him. So he's might be more anonymous and more accepting. But maybe I don't know, it sort of helps all of the three of you together to create, you know, a little unit as a three rather than a, it's me, it's mum time, or it's not my mom time, you know that that conflict? Right? Yes, the art can be sort of like a joining force. That's a really good word. Yes. That's really good word. I like that. I'm going to take that quote. Yes, go for it. I also think it's good with when when babies are around moms who are creative, then creativity is a normal part of life. And so it feels more accessible to the kids. It's like, if you grow up, you know, eating vegetables, then vegetables are just normal and you just eat them, right? It's the same thing with creativity and moms get to model that by their own creative process and the inclusion of their kids through that and sort of joining. Absolutely. And I think then as you as the kids get older, perhaps then realizing, seeing that deeper meaning behind the art, like sneaking into that art therapy sort of realm that it's not, I'm not just making marks on the paper. I'm not just painting I'm actually using this as a tool in my life, which is Powerful to give kids from a young age, isn't that, right? Because we all have this tool, even the people who identify as non creative, we are all creative if we tap into it, and if we allow ourselves to be and it's, it can be completely free, you can go make art with nature, it does not have to be expensive, it does not have to cost really anything. And so I think it's accessible. And a lot of us just forget, or a lot of people are really traumatized by their kindergarten art teachers. So I get a lot of clients who come in and they're like, I am not an artist, I'm not artistic. My kindergarten art teacher told me that I'm bad at art. So I haven't made art since. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, it's time for a corrective experience. Because art is about being expressive. It's about making, it's not about the end product. Yes, I'm really glad you said that, actually. Because as you were starting that conversation there, something came into my head and what you just said to completely confirmed it. I come from a background of working in childcare, I was in childcare for nine years. And our center had this really big philosophy about, we had this art room that was available all the time to any child of any age, or like the candy store, like everything was there, you could pick what you wanted to. And you didn't have to have an idea of what you're going to make before you went in, which I think is really important, because I think some people can be like, to the children. Now what are you going to make, it's like, well, you don't really no till you there and you're experimenting and experiencing, then something might come out. But then a lot of kindergartens and I know a lot of like early, maybe reception in new ones, teachers would have just like a cut out like a printed stencil, each child will get the exact same picture, maybe just say it's Christmas time and everyone's got to make a Christmas tree. And it all has to be green. And it all has to have the same things on it. And it all has to be folded the same way. And we used to have this poster up in our staff room, and it was like a picture of a child created a painting of whatever. And then it had this, you know, repetitive, exactly the same image. And it said, This is art, this isn't and it sort of helps you realize that it's not about the end product, it's not about having that whatever looking tree to give to Mum and Dad, it's about, you know, I always valued like you can see behind me, you might not be able to cause the sun, but I've got I put most of my kids paintings around the room. And a lot of them are just I have no idea what they are. Or they might be just some whatever's on a page, but I love them and I value them so much more than I value, you know, that stencil carbon copy, because I know that they haven't done that. That's the teacher's intention is to make everybody make the same thing. And I just think it's damaging to the little imaginations that want to run wild and be magical and be inventive. And maybe your tree has horns, maybe it's purple, maybe it has six trunks, you know, we need to be able to have that expressive freedom. Yeah, maybe it's not actually a tree, maybe it's a rocket ship. Or, again, if it was my chart, if you like you're picking up. Right. Right. And, and having a place where they can have, you know, the sky be the limit to their creative ability and capacity is so valuable for kids. Absolutely. And I think I've spoken about this with a lot of moms is that fear that we can have about and probably coming from our sort of, perhaps issues with control and having things done. Right and not having mess is it's really can be really challenging to set your children up with with paints and sit there and not freak out because it's going everywhere. And it's on them. And it might not be on the paper that can be quite challenging for for moms to get over as well. Yes, I think I tell moms who have that, that kind of issue with the messiness piece to go outside and make art in the grass or to have a designated set of clothing. That's art making clothing that we just don't worry about, or to put down a giant piece of tarp or a sheet that you don't care about so that you really you can let go of that. But it's also valuable for the mom to notice that that kind of anxiety around the mess, and to do her work around that too, because the art is actually helping her to see an area where she still needs healing. And so the art therapy is happening for her even if she's not the artist, she's the witness. But she she has a thing revealed. So it's notation back into herself. Hmm, that is so true, isn't it? You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Two topics that I love to sort of delve into with my guests on this show. One is identity. And we've spoken briefly about that, but we'll talk about it more. And the other thing is mum guilt. How do you feel about that? I think mom guilt is a real thing. And I think most if not all, moms feel it. And I love that it is something that's out in the open as a real thing. So that it takes the shame out of it, if possible. And if you can name your experience of having mom guilt, I think just the power of naming it takes some of the charge out of it. But yeah, I think we, I mean, I think you're in a different culture than I am. But I think collectively, many cultures on our globe have these sort of predetermined rules and expectations and structures that mothers are supposed to fit into. And it really does us a disservice. Because it doesn't allow us to be who we are. And so that's a big reason why my jam is authenticity. Because I really, I want to see what, what is real for people. And if someone is inundated with guilt, about working a lot, or not working a lot, or not being creative or not lending baby food in their home, blender, whatever. I think it's really important that they not avoid that, and that they actually say, Gosh, I feel really ashamed and guilty that I'm feeding my kid food from a pouch instead of you know, homemade. And what's that about? Right? It's another example of how we can kind of turn the arrow back at ourselves, and really invite ourselves into inner work around. What is this guilt? What is it reflecting about me? Where did it come from? Maybe it's even a lineage pattern that has been alive for generations in my own family. And how many women in my family felt unsupported as mothers? I don't know, because they didn't talk about it until maybe this generation. That's so true, isn't it? And I feel like because we're all talking about it, it takes the sting out of it a bit. You don't have to feel guilty for feeling guilty. You know, for one of a better description, it's, you know, it exists. I hate it. I think it's a load of, I hate it so much. I wish it didn't exist, but and I think that's why I like talking about it, because the more we talk about it, you know, like I said, it, it takes a feel like it takes the power out of it. Because once it's named, it's almost like I don't know, I'm trying, I had this thought come through my head, like, you know, like, if it's a monster, it doesn't exist, but it scares you. But then you discover that it exists. And then you realize it's actually doesn't have power over you. I don't know, that's a really long pole to try. And I've been watching a lot of Avengers lately. Like you said it, you'd name it, you own it, and then you can do the work on and it doesn't hold that control power fear over you because you like facing it head on and, and doing something about it. Yes, I think even though so many moms are now talking about mom guilt in a way that's really supportive and compassionate, there still is a huge part of the world that isn't talking about it. And that's laying those old narratives on motherhood. So I think it's really important for moms to find their people who can support them, and who can align with the type of authenticity that lets you feel guilty and supports you in your guilt and helps you to not feel alone and to work through it. Because if you're an authentic person, in an inauthentic system, it's gonna feel really invalidating and it's gonna, it's gonna crush you in you're not going to continue to express that because it's, it's not being validated. You just have to feel like you're pushed down. Yeah, that's really important. Isn't it about finding, finding the people that share your views? And have that, again, that authenticity? It's keep coming back to that word, but it's so true, isn't it? Yes. And I think there's a lot there about aligned relationships. You know, people like the buzzwords like toxic relationships, or that person's a narcissist or whatever. But if you just take all the labels away, and it's just about alignment or misalignment, you know, it doesn't make anyone bad or wrong. It just makes them misaligned with you. So then you go find your people who you can be more aligned with so that you have that congruence. See and that feeling of resonance when you're with people who actually see you and support you for who you are not for some charade that you're pretending to uphold. Yeah. Pardon me? That is That is so true. What sort of role do you feel like social media has to play in all this sort of guilt driving and judgment sort of thing? I think it's kind of the both sides of the coin, I think you can find that support and that authenticity. I think there's people like you and like me who are on social media trying to spread this compassion and this authenticity. And I think you can easily get down the rabbit hole of really narrow minded, rigid thinking that is related to old narratives and a lot of guilt and shame. So I think you have to be discerning with social media. Yeah, it's that same thing, as in real life is in finding those people, finding your tribe, and following the people that you don't allied with. Right, yeah. And I also think it's important to remember that what you see on social media isn't always the truth. It's hardly ever the truth. So it's everyone that you see on social media is smiling with their new baby, and they look so happy. I think it's important to remind yourself like, maybe that's partially true. But what am I not seeing about what's hard for this person, and just know that the snapshots on Facebook or Instagram are just snapshots there, they don't have depth of reality. And if you want more depth of reality, find real live humans to go spend time with instead of social media feeds. Yeah, that's really, really good advice. Because there are a lot of rabbit holes to fall down into, on social media. I find in terms of unfollowing, I'll go through phases where I felt I'll be on a different sort of tracks or follow a lot of people in that sort of area. And then all of a sudden, one day, I'll just go, Ah, no, I don't want that anymore. And I will just go through and unfollow, unfollow, and then another day, I'll find something. It's really interesting how you like, depending how your thoughts have evolved, you know, maybe you've been surrounding yourself with people that have allowed you to see things in a different way or opens your mind to a different way of thinking and then you go, Oh, actually, that stuff doesn't feel right anymore. You know, it's there's nothing wrong with doing that. Yes, that's clearing, right? So when we grow and we learn new things, we see the world through a new way, we naturally need to let go of what no longer aligns, so that we can create space for what does align, because you can't just fill yourself and your social media feed endlessly, you have to clear to let in. I once heard, I've had a few readings with psychic mediums over the years. And one of my favorites, he told me, you only have a certain amount of room in your backpack. So you know, you have to take out things sometimes to be able to fit those new things in. So I sort of use that sort of visual analogy that, you know, you can only carry so much. I love that. And it's important to be discerning. Yeah, absolutely. The other topic about identity and you touched on it. When you were talking about writing your book when your son was three months old. Let's just talk about that a bit more. So that shift that we go through. And I everyone feels this differently, too, which is awesome. Which, you know, we talked about earlier, everyone's motherhood journey is so different. Personally, the feelings you were feeling, can you sort of share a bit more about that? About what felt hard at that time? Yeah. And I guess about how, if you felt like, you know, your previous say, your previous self, you're still the same person. But, you know, you were changing into this, this mother role. How that sort of felt that transition? Oh, yes. Well, I think what made it so hard was that it was so abrupt that you know, during pregnancy, I was so happy. I loved with both of my pregnancies. It felt like an immensely spiritual experience. I felt like a vessel I felt like oh my gosh, like if the aliens could see how we make people they would be amazed. It's just so it's incredible. So even when I felt nauseous or, you know, when I was 30 pounds heavier than I was used to being, I was like, This is amazing. Yeah, I had such a great experience. And then, right at the end of my pregnancy with my son with my firstborn, our midwife found out that he was breech. And they were like, Oh, well, we're gonna have to flip this baby. And I'm like, what is that a thing. And so I tend to get very urgent about, like, when something is abnormal, medically, I just have my own anxiety triggers around health and medical stuff. And so I was like, Okay, we gotta flip this baby. And it pregnancy stopped being enjoyable, and it started feeling stressful. And I kid you not, I read somewhere that I was supposed to do a handstand and go upside down in a swimming pool to turn my baby. So if you can imagine someone at eight months pregnant, like trying to do a handstand, in the swimming pool, in like, community swimming pool with all of these people, it was humiliating. But I was so committed, I'm like, You're gonna turn this baby. Like, it didn't work, you know, it's such a silly thing. And so I tried that I did Chinese Chinese medicine called moxibustion. And I was, it's like this little, like a charcoal lit charcoal thing that you put close to a chakra. And it energetically is supposed to help, whatever it didn't do it. But what it did do is it triggered labor. And so I went into labor, just in this really stressful state of being like, my baby's not coming out the way I want my baby to come out. So that went into a birth, that was a cesarean after I was really attached to the idea of a vaginal birth. And then my baby was born with a bilateral pneumothorax, which is a puncture in each of his lungs. And so he had to go to NICU and we didn't get to bond. And I didn't get to hold him. And I was like, strapped down on a table with a open surgical wound. And it was just so different than what I envisioned. And so I was set up for motherhood, like with this trauma. And so I think, I actually think now, you know, nine years later, I look back and I'm like, Well, I learned my first lesson of motherhood, right off the bat, that I'm not in control of everything anymore. And my rigid thinking and my attachment to what I want and how I want it needs to soften and it needs to be more flexible. And so that was probably the hardest transition for me was that it was just this very abrupt sort of message that was in my face, like you are not in control. And you have got to learn how to be more flexible. Just while you're saying that I'm getting goosebumps, because that literally feels like the message that I was given. similar sort of, you know, I had all these expectations I had my first baby was a vaginal birth, but he was very quick. So I had this idea that this time my waters would break, everything would be, you know, planned and go to nap, we had a very traumatic scenario. And same thing, he was a, he was very tiny. But he, he was fully developed. But he was very tiny. Because it turned out my placenta had stopped working after 26 weeks, and no one don't know how no one discovered it. So then he was away from me for a while. So I had this, I just kept like, right from the beginning, he had to have formula. So that control I had in my last, my last baby, that I had to feed him against all odds, I was going to feed this child that was taken away from me. So it was like, Okay, you are really not in control of this. And you you're being forced to let go of these, you know, these beliefs that you are holding on to. And then when I got him back, I just had these, I just kept hearing in my head, just keep him close, keep him close. So I would just sit and hold him and nurse him and he'd sleep and I'd miss him. And it just was completely different to my first child. And I'm so glad that I was thrown all those curveballs because it just made me completely relaxed and and go, there is no routine, there is no predictability. And I was happy with that. And it was weird because I've never been happy with that. Like when I was five years old, on my first gig performing on stage, it was just at a school Christmas concert. The teacher held the microphone for me and she wasn't holding it in the right spot. So I pulled it closer. You know, this has been me my whole life. It's good. Try it Hmm, yeah, very suddenly and violently, and traumatically. That was all taken away from me. And I'm so grateful for that. Now, you know, in hindsight, the lessons that I've learned, although at the time was pretty full on that, you know, I've always, I've always felt like the, like our babies, teach us the lessons that we would not learn from anyone else, we would not let anyone else get close enough and honest and vulnerable enough as we let our children get to us. And so some of our biggest issues will never come up for healing. If our kids don't reflect them back to us, you know, and control is a really big one for a lot of moms. And it's really healing to be able to finally sort of unpack it and work through the layers. It's amazing, isn't it? Because I save the children choose us for the lessons we have to learn in this life. So it's prevalent? Yeah, I think we choose our families. So talking more about yourself in the work that you're doing? Can you share what you've sort of got coming up or anything you want to share about the work that you're doing? Yes, I actually have a huge movement that I am in right now with my business, I am in the process of transforming my private therapy practice into a large scale mental health platform called the Radiant Life project. And the Radiant Life project is all about helping people find that radiance, and that glow. That is part of our human birthright. But we forget, and we get stuck in our mental illnesses, and we get stuck on autopilot. And so this is about really getting unstuck, whether you're a mother, whether you're not a mother, whether you're a man or a woman, or non binary, anyone, this is about lighting your life up from the inside out and feeling full and resourced. Not without challenges in your life, but with the challenges and feeling empowered to live as a whole person. So I have a new book that I'm working on, that's almost ready to go to publishing called the Radiant Life project. And it's a big download of my 15 plus years of clinical experience, plus some of my own personal journey. And I've also got some courses coming up that will be available on my website. And I'll be offering retreats and workshops that are all geared toward helping people build a radiant life. Wow, that sounds awesome. I'm really excited for you. That's fantastic. Thank you, I am so excited by it, I actually took a three month sabbatical from my therapy practice because I got really burned out working sort of on the frontlines as a mental health person in the pandemic. And I thought I was just going to spend my sabbatical like curled up in bed watching movies, but actually, I have felt so energized and so excited about the Radiant Life project that I am just writing, and building and creating and making art and talking to people like you and it feels, talk about alignment, it feels very aligned. That's wonderful. I can just see your face like literally radiant, as you told me about it. It's just wonderful. Thank you. So share with us, what's the name of your website where people can best find you and find out more information. Yes, the website is the Radiant Life project.com. And you can also follow me on Instagram at the Radiant Life project. I'm I'm posting reels every other day with little therapeutic tidbits and kind of helpful, helpful little gems for people. And I have a free newsletter that I'm sending out once a month that gives inspirations and little offerings and keeps people up to date with my new releases and the progress of my book. So if you want to be part of my mailing list, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website, which is the Radiant Life project.com And that's probably the best way to reach me. Awesome. I'm glad you mentioned about your Instagram because I do enjoy your reels. And there's something very soothing about your voice too. I must say when you're sharing you know little tips about I think one was how you had to give a good apology like the three steps and there was another one about boundaries that I really liked. But the way you present them is just so it makes To stop scrolling and just go, ah, like, it's just so calming. And I don't know really connective, if that's not the word, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, again, it feels like you're right there, you're talking, you're talking to me. And you're saying, Allison, this is this is a thing you should be listening to. Thank you. That is my intention. And I am trying to, I'm trying to give away free support for people and Instagram as a great resource for people. And so I really am, you know, these aren't like promotional videos that I'm trying to hook people, I'm really just trying to give away knowledge that people can use to support themselves. Because the Radiant Life project is not about using anyone else as a crutch or expecting anyone else to rescue you. It's about doing it from the inside out. And, and being so radiant, that it extends through and beyond you and affects the world. Absolutely. We need to sit there about doing the work yourself. And there's no one's going to do it for you. When I was in the real depths of my postnatal depression, with my second child, I had that exact feeling I had, and it was incredibly daunting, and scary. But on the other hand, it was so empowering, it was like, no one can help me, and a fearful thing, but then it was like, Uh, no one can help me because I'm capable of doing this, I can do this. So it was like, flicking the switch. It's, it's scary, when you know, you've got to do it yourself. And when you're not in a great place, you know, in your own head, they can feel like the worst news in the world. Like, literally, you want someone to save you, you want someone to fix you. But working with someone like yourself, you know, a trained professional, you will have assistants, but at the end of the day, it is you that goes deep inside you and changes, you know, whether it's, you know, the habits or the way you think about you yourself, think about the world, all that sort of stuff is on you. And I think I learned that during my sabbatical it, it took me 15 years of clinical practice to realize that, oh, I don't want these people to need me, I want these people to not need me. Yo, now I'll be going back to this Radiant Life project with the new perspective of I'm here as a guide and as a supportive resource. But ultimately, this is your show. This is your life. So reclaim it. Yeah, let's see. So well said I love that. And also just a point I wanted to mention, you are trained and experienced, like you said, 15 years of clinical experience, it really annoys me when I see people on Instagram sprouting out do this, do that, whatever. And they know they have none of that. So just to point out the you actually know things. Thank you. You're right, there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. So make sure you know as people are being discerning about aligned relationships and the right resources, make sure that the support that you receive is from credible places. All right, well, I'll let you lead the way, Kate with this reading using your beautiful deck. Okay, thank you. So what I always do with this is, I just want the cards to know that this is for you and not me. So I just sort of say to the cards. This is a reading for Alison. Okay, so would you like to stick with your your three card? Pull? You do whatever feels right over there. But I'm gonna leave it up to you. Do you have any specific questions or any specific? Anything that's on your mind that you're curious about? Look, I'd like to just know that where I'm at right now I'm actually feeling because I see my full disclosure, I see my therapist monthly. So I do a lot of work. And I feel like right at this moment in time, I actually had a mental health check with my doctor this morning. And you know, we have this thing over here called a I think it's called K 10. And you check, no, based on the last four weeks, have you experienced different emotions or situations. And mine was the lowest score I think it's ever been ever so right now I'm going really good. So I guess I just like, you know, some feedback on that, I suppose. Yes, that's perfect. How about like, why are you feeling so well? What's working? Yeah, And what are some areas of? Oh, I got it. Okay, what's working? What is an area of growth that you can work through now that you have so much strength? And I'm wondering if maybe there was something to let go of now. So maybe I'll pull three. Yep, that sounds awesome. Okay, so the first one is Why are you feeling so good? Okay, and the second one is what area of growth feels accessible now that you're so resourced? Okay, and the third one is, what can you let go of? What do you no longer need? All right. So I'll give you these three. And then if we need an additional minute, sometimes we need one more card. So we'll see. So why are you feeling so good. This is the card that I pulled. And this is the card of companionship, this is a relational card. And for you, this could mean anything from like, either not being codependent, like just coexisting peacefully with people or it could mean that you have a new kind of support or a connection that's really sustaining and filling you up. But this is about kind of like peaceful coexistence and relationships. Yeah. And I'll screenshot these these cards and put them in the show notes for everyone. But it's, it's a pair of Dragon is it to dragonflies and flowers, and then color that is my color, that background? That's like that aqua, sort of It's a mixture between throat chakra and the heart chakra. It's kind of that that really beautiful Aqua. Love that. That's beautiful, by the way. Thank you. Okay, so number two, now that you're in a strong place, what work can you do? So this is the card that's about being both rooted, and also free. So the work now is kind of working with this binary that you don't have to be so grounded that you don't fly, and you don't have to be so airy, that you're ungrounded. So the work now is about having both Hmm. It's finding that balance, isn't that? Which kind of Yeah, you should, one sorry to cut you off. I'm usually one way or the other, I made the Full Tilt one way or nothing. So this card is telling you that now that you're in such a strong place in your life, it's time for you to kind of have a fusion of Mind Body Spirit, and not be only in one or the other. Yep, yeah. So where can you can you describe that? That beautiful picture? Fairly? Yes. So this is a an image of a figure that has sort of golden energy coming in through the crown chakra at the top of their head and moving through the body, and actually growing roots that reach down into the earth all the way down to sort of the molten lava core where there are pure crystalline energies and resources. And the figure also has large wings that are open and expanding and kind of taking off. Yeah, I have a thing with wings, we fly with feathers, I collect a lot of flat Earth, this flower girl articulates a lot of flowers, too. But wings is a big thing for me. Yes, I also love wings, well, then you're gonna like this one, too. So your third part, which is about what to let go of. This is an image that's about like magical thinking, this is about I think what this message is, is that you should let go of the sort of spiritual bypassing of avoiding things by being too kind of too spiritual, and not actually facing what's real. There is magic in the world. And there is spirituality in the world. And we can also use them as avoidance mechanisms. So I think that this card is asking you to release that. Hmm, that definitely makes sense. I love how you're, you're female, I guess presuming it's a female figure there has got the wing on one side. And then it's sort of like it's reality, and, and sort of the spiritual world sort of shining one figure and if that makes sense, and the columns and it's similar to your second card with sort of a feeling of grounding, but also flying at the same time. And I think that's part of the message with With when you don't want to let go of all of your magic, you don't want to let go of your spirituality that's important. You just want to let go of the parts that are keeping you from doing the work you need to do. Hmm, yeah, that makes sense. It's almost like I can use it as a justification to avoid things. I think you just said that. Yeah. Yes. John Wellwood has a term called spiritual bypassing. And it is just all about how we use spirituality to avoid things. And it's not that's not a healthy use of spirituality. Yeah. I love that. So do you need do you need another car? Do you feel like there's any anything lingering? No, I don't actually, I feel like that's, that's actually incredibly spot on. That's, and it's really not, I've always felt really reassured after having cards pulled like, it just feels like a nice warm hug from the universe. And, you know, there's, there's never, I don't know, all the all the decks I've ever read. If they want to tell you, you know, to improve on something, it's always in a kind way, you know, they're never gonna pound you on the head with a with a horrible, you know, mean thing. But you know, they're looking after. So if there's things I need to say, they'll tell us, you know? Yes, I talk about it as like the shadow side and the sunny side where everything has the shadow like Carl Jung talked about in his in his groundbreaking psychological work. But there's a dark side to everything. But there's also a bright side to everything. And if you can find the place where you can hold both and glean the gifts from both than that's like holistic, balanced living, right is not getting too lost in the shadows or too blinded by the light. It's getting that union the Yang sort of just it's balanced. Yes. Balance. Yes. Oh, look, thank you. That is just, ah, I feel very special. And everyone listening, you should feel special, because that's the very first time we've ever had a reading on the podcast. So thank you, Kate, for sharing that with us. You're welcome. And you'll be can people purchase your cards from your website as well? Yes. So at the Radiant Life project.com There's a page where you can purchase the deck, you could purchase the book, the authentic Mother, you can also purchase prints of my artwork. Oh, lovely. Excellent on thank you I have just had a such a lovely morning chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on. It's just so welcome. I've enjoyed it as well. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

6 Magdalena McGuire Australian author 6 Article # 4 August 2023 Hi, I’m Magdalena. I’ve always loved stories, books and words. Reading has been one of the great loves of my life, so it’s no surprise that I’ve always wanted to be a writer. When I was a kid – like many people – I didn’t know that writing could be a ‘job’. I thought it was simply something that you did. That is, that writing was a verb, not a noun. I wrote stories, therefore I could call myself a writer – or so I thought. When I got older things got more complicated. Self-consciousness kicked in and the stories didn’t flow from my imagination to my fingers like they used to. Even worse, it dawned on me that only some people got to go around calling themselves ‘Writers’ (most of these people seemed to be men). Suddenly, it seemed that writing was a very serious and very intellectual business. I’ve tried to rid myself of these archaic ideas but they’re difficult to exorcise altogether. Maybe this is why I still feel sheepish calling myself a writer. It feels like I need a whole lot of credentials (maybe a different gender?) to claim this title. Which is silly, really, because if another woman writer told me this, I’d tell her to own it – own her space, call herself a writer. So, ok. I’ll say it: My name is Magdalena, and I’m a writer. Along with my partner, I’m raising two very funny, and very chaotic, young boys. My older son is in grade one and my younger kid is in kinder. One of the nice things about having kids is that it’s given me the chance to delve into children’s literature. At the moment we’re reading a lot of Andy Griffiths in our house! I’m always encouraging my older to kid to get into other Australian authors, but he always wants to go back to Andy Griffiths. Reading these books together has made me think about what a skill it is to tell stories that grab the reader, that make them laugh and that keep them on the edge of their seat. It’s such a talent! Reading books with my kids has also re-connected me to my childhood love of literature. "It kind of grates on me when, as women, we are compelled to say, ‘I’m really lucky because I have a supportive partner who helps with the housework and looks after the kids.’ I mean, wouldn’t it be nice if this was simply a given? And wouldn’t it be nice if we heard men waxing lyrical about the fact they’re lucky to have partners who ‘help out’ with the domestic load? " Like many women, my creative life is somewhat fractured and haphazard; it takes place in the cracks and margins. My writing time contracts and expands depending on other people’s needs and competing demands like earning money (I work part-time in the research department at a children’s hospital). Something that has helped me immensely in my creative journey is the notion of closing the gap between my writing life and my life. When I first got back into writing fiction as an adult, I thought that I had to make everything up in order to, well, prove that I could. Some people get very sniffy about ‘autobiographical’ writers – particularly when these writers are women. I used to come up with all kinds of outlandish fictional situations in order to prove to myself, and other people, that I really was writing fiction. When I had kids that slowly started to change. I realised that becoming a mother is one of the biggest transformations that a person could go through and that this makes the experience worth writing about. More and more, I started to use my own experiences as catalysts for my fiction. This escalated when I had my second child in 2020. When I went to hospital to give birth, the world was ‘normal’. When I came out, we were in lockdown. It was a point in time in which my own life – and the broader world – were undergoing massive change. So I began to write about it. And because my writing responded to the world around me, it became easier to write in the small slivers of time that I had. Many of these experiences – of having a baby during uncertain times, of finding the funny side of parenting – have made their way, in fictional form, into my short story collection, Born for You. Now, when I’m spending hours shivering in a playground, or when I’m faced with a toddler’s meltdown in a supermarket, I think to myself: ‘Oh well, it’s research. I’ll be able to use this, somehow, in my work.’ In this way, my mum-life has also become my writing-life. Closing the gap between these things has helped me to see motherhood itself as a creative act. To see it as something that, yes, takes time away from my writing but also enriches it. It kind of grates on me when, as women, we are compelled to say, ‘I’m really lucky because I have a supportive partner who helps with the housework and looks after the kids.’ I mean, wouldn’t it be nice if this was simply a given? And wouldn’t it be nice if we heard men waxing lyrical about the fact they’re lucky to have partners who ‘help out’ with the domestic load? Having said that, I know I’m extremely lucky. My husband is a feminist, a man who’s great at caring and cooking. How did he end up this way? He was raised by a feminist mum, that’s how. I’m hoping that this sharing-of-the-load helps us set a good example for our own boys (time will tell!). This support enables me to keep writing. If I had to manage the entire domestic load on my own, as well as do paid work, I don’t think it would be possible for me to be a writer. Motherhood is an incredibly emotionally intense experience. This intensity is something that I try to channel into my work, which examines motherhood as a catalyst for, and symbol of, personal and systemic change. In my short story collection, Born for You, we meet women at the crossroads of change. Sometimes these changes are global, in the cases of war or pandemic. And sometimes these changes are more personal, like, for example, a woman who is grappling with a catastrophic lack of sleep. Each story asks the question: What is it like to love and care for another person when your world has tilted on its axis? I guess this sums up my own transition to motherhood: it felt like my entire world had tilted on its axis. This sense of the ground shifting beneath my feet has been destabilising but also fruitful: it’s something that continues to provide creative fuel for my work. Likewise, I find myself obsessed with writers who explore the territory of motherhood in their work. International authors like Rachel Cusk, Deborah Levy, Bernardine Evaristo, Patricia Lockwood and Celeste Ng. And Australian authors like Angela Savage, Melanie Cheng, Maxine Beneba Clarke, Stephanie Bishop and Kate Mildenhall, to name but a few. These are the writers who inspire me. "I realised that becoming a mother is one of the biggest transformations that a person could go through and that this makes the experience worth writing about. More and more, I started to use my own experiences as catalysts for my fiction." After I had my first child, writing became something I had less time for, as well as something that I desperately wanted to do. It became more important than ever to guard my interior life; to have something that was just mine. Those early days, and nights, were fractured and sleep deprived. Just about all my outings were child-related: trips to the park or rhyme time, or the children’s gallery at the museum. When my child was still a baby (I can’t remember how old he was – that time is a bit of a blur!) I treated myself to an afternoon workshop at a writer’s centre. It was my first big solo outing in a long time. The workshop was hosted by a short story writer, Irish, gregarious, and after class he invited all of us to go downstairs to a wine bar – it’s a very ‘literary’ wine bar, where all the writers hang out, so it was exciting to be going with a crew of writers. We were sitting outside, a large group of us, split over a few tables. On my table, a woman asked about my writing life. I said that I had a baby and that I was working on a novel. I talked about the challenges of doing both these things. There was a pause. Then she said: ‘I have grave concerns for your baby. When I became a mother I gave up writing for twenty years. The wellbeing of my children came first.’ Even as I’m writing this, my heart is speeding up; my fingertips are thrumming. Nearly seven years later, the shock and humiliation still burns. I can still feel the heat of that accusation landing in my chest. I was too shocked to respond. I had too many questions to process: was I doing something wrong by going to a literary event instead of staying at home with my baby? Was I damaging my child because I wanted to be a writer as well as a mother? Did nurturing my literary ambitions inevitably mean that my child would develop a host of psychological problems? Was this a thing? This happened years ago and that baby is now a soon-to-be-seven-year old, and he’s fine. In fact, he’s amazing. But that comment still burns. Recently, I spoke to my friend about what happened. This friend of mine is eminently sensible – and I mean that in the best possible way. She has a finely tuned bullshit detector. She’s also childless by choice and there’s something about this fact that enables her to be completely objective about these motherhood-dilemmas. When I come to her with an issue like this I know that she’ll approach it without any hangups or vested interests. When I told her what happened she laughed in a kind of horrified way. Then she said, ‘I had a mother who dedicated her whole life and her whole identity to looking after me. And you know what? It was a burden. I wanted her to have her own life, her own interests and friends. I wanted her to show me how to be a well-rounded person.’ This is the thought I keep returning to: my job as a mother is to care for my children, yes, and also to show them, through my example, how to engage with the broader world. And that soon-to-be-seven-year old who I stole slivers of time from so I could write? Well he’s ridiculously proud that I’m publishing a book. He says that, one day, he’s going to publish a book too (as well as build houses and look after children and plant trees and make millions of dollars, and, and, and….). He’s seen me work hard at my writing and grapple with the highs and lows, the wins and rejections that come with this sort of work. And I think – I hope – that that’s setting a good example for both my kids. Contact Magdalena I’m super excited that my book about motherhood, Born for You, has now been launched into the world. I’ll be posting any news and events on my website BACK

We try to make sure this list is accurate and up to date. We can’t guarantee that it will always apply to you. You should seek your own medical advice from your doctor or health professional. This is by no means an exhaustive list and The Art of Being a Mum does not endorse or recommend these services in particular. GLOBAL LINKS checkpointorg.com Find A Helpline Befrienders Domestic Violence Help AUSTRALIA headspace (for people aged 12 to 25 and their families) — or call 1800 650 890 Beyond Blue (anyone feeling depressed or anxious) — or call 1300 22 4636 Black Dog Institute (anyone affected by mood disorders) — online help SANE Australia (people living with a mental illness) — or call 1800 18 7263 This Way Up (anyone with stress, anxiety and depression) — online courses MindSpot (people with anxiety and depression) — call 1800 61 44 34 or complete an online screening assessment. Emergency Services : 000 AUSTRALIAN POST NATAL DEPRESSION AND ANXIETY SUPPORT panda.org.au gidgetfoundation UNITED STATES Call or text 988 or chat 988lifeline.org . Mental Health America You can also reach Crisis Text Line by texting MHA to 741741. 1-800-273-TALK (8255) HopeLine Cherry Hill - The Recovery Village Addiction Support Emergency Services: 911 USA POST PARTUM DEPRESSION SUPPORT postpartum.net Help with addictions - Texas CANADA Canadian Government Services Crisis Services Canada 1-833-456-4566 toll free (In QC: 1-866-277-3553) Mental Health Mobile Crisis Telephone Line 902-429-8167 Talk Suicide - Canadian Associaition for Suicide Prevention Association Candienne Pour la Prevention Du Suicide 819-339-3356 Canadian Mental Health Association CANADA POST PARTUM DEPRESSION SUPPORT camh.ca UK mind.org.uk nhs.uk UK Samaritans or phone 116 123 HopeLine UK 0800 068 4141 Prevention of Young Suicide HelpLines Partnership Mentalhealth.org.uk UK POST NATAL DEPRESSION SUPPORT pandasfoundation.org.uk/ REPUBLIC OF IRELAND Samaritans or call 116 123 Lifeline or call 0808 808 8000 Emergency Services: 999 ROI POST NATAL DEPRESSION SUPPORT www.pnd.ie/ NEW ZEALAND Emergency Number 09 5222 999 (Auckland) 0800 543 354 (Rest of NZ) Lifeline New Zealand mentalhealth.org.nz/ Emergency Services: 111 NEW ZEALAND POST NATAL DEPRESSION SUPPORT www.healthnavigator.org.nz EUROPE European Emergency Number: 112 https://eufami.org/ FRANCE (English Speaking) 0033 145 39 4000 Suicide Ecoute 01 46 21 46 46 SOS Help GERMANY Telefonseelsorge Deutschland (National) German speaking: 0800 -111 0 222 English speaking: 030-44 01 06 07 Crisis support line 6pm to 12am daily Feel free to reach out to me here if you have a service or organisation recommendation. Please be aware I do not share links of lawyers or other commercial entities.

Shweta Bist Indian born photographer S2 Ep51 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) , Spotify and Google Podcasts Welcome. This week my guest is Shweta Bist, a photographer currently based in New York City, USA, and a mother of 2 girls. Shweta was born in New Dehli in India. Both her parents were artistic but put it aside to work. Shweta painted a lot, drew, sang, was in the theatre, acted and danced. Art was an outlet for her even as a child, spending time doing oil canvasses . Art was a way for her to find solace and process things that weren't going right for her as a teenager. In 2007 Shweta moved to Dubai with her husband and lived there until 2013 when she moved to New York with her young family. It was during this time of being a new mother that her interest and enjoyment from photography came to light. As her experiences with photography developed, Shweta found that the pictures became more art-like, and began to reflect her inner thoughts and feelings, more so than doing work for others. While drawing attention to her maternal identity and the intimate relationship she shares with her daughters, Shweta stages conceptual photographs to draw attention to the emotional labour of mothering, highlighting maternal love and the reciprocity of mothering between mother and child. Her endeavour is to create images that urge the viewer to contemplate the complexities of the maternal experience in its ambivalent entirety, and to contribute to a narrative about the lives of women and their children, told from their perspectives. **This episode contains discussions around anxiety and depression** The COVID Family Portrait ©️2021 Shweta Bist Motherhouse ©️2021 Shweta Bist Caught in Single Use - from the Plastic Series ©️2021 Shweta Bist Shwetas article in The Lockdown Mothers Spilt Milk Gallery / Great Pacific Garbage Patch / Andrea O'Reilly Susan Maushart - The Mask of Motherhood The Divided Heart - Art and Motherhood by Rachel Power Rachel's Art of Being the Mum podcast interview / The Museum of Motherhood Connect with Shweta Connect with the podcast Music heard today is from Australian new age trio Alemjo , and is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... My guest today is Shweta Bist. Shweta is a photographer, currently based in New York City in the United States, and a mother of two girls. Shweta was born in New Delhi in India. Both her parents were tested, but put it aside to work. Shredder painted a lot drew sang and was in the theater. She acted and danced. Art was an outlet for her even as a child spending time doing oil canvases. Art was a way for her to find solace and to process things that weren't going right for her as a teenager. In 2007, Shweta moved to Dubai with her husband and live there until 2013 when she moved to New York City with a young family. It was during this time of being a new mother that her interest and enjoyment from photography came to light as her experiences with photography developed. She later found that the pictures became more art like and began to reflect her inner thoughts and feelings more so than doing work for others. While drawing attention to her maternal identity, and the intimate relationships she shares with her daughters Schwitters stages conceptual photographs to draw attention to the emotional labor of mothering, highlighting maternal love, and the reciprocity of mothering between mother and child. Her endeavor is to create images that urge the viewer to contemplate the complexities of the maternal experience in its ambivalent entirety and to contribute to a narrative about the lives of women and their children told from their perspective. So whereabouts are you from originally? So I'm from? I'm from New Delhi. I'm from India. And yeah, I was born in in New Delhi. And I lived there for for most of my life really? Up until now. Yeah. Yeah, I left after I got married two years after I got married to my husband. We first moved to Dubai, from Delhi. And then after that, we moved to New York. From Dubai. Yeah, in 2013. So yeah, right. And I left home in 2007. So it's been a while yeah. A company that managed were basically a manufacturer of garments and protective wear for corporate clothing and industrial clothing. And I only had time on the weekends, and I loved taking the camera everywhere I went. And gradually over a period of time, I'd developed much love for it. And you know, when you have children, you know how moms are, and we're always taking pictures of our kids. And that happened with when my first one was born. And even then I didn't think I do this for a living. But, you know, we moved to New York, and after the second one was born, about eight weeks after she was born, we moved here, and I was home with the kids, and, you know, of course, snapping away. And I think somewhere after a year, I kind of thought, you know, I love this, I should, I shouldn't do this for a living. So, but I never really, you know, you know, when the kids were little it was I didn't, it was hard for me to kind of pull myself out of where I had gotten, you know, as a stay at home mom. And I was really very focused on building a life for them and a community for us, because we didn't know many people when we moved here. And so when the little one started going to kindergarten, that's when I, that's when I went back to school a little bit, I went, I took evening lessons at the School of Visual Arts. And, and I started taking pictures for small sums of money, you know, just working freelance, like, family photographs, shooting events, performances. And, but, but I wanted to do something else is what I realized, while doing all this, I was thinking I needed to make art. And because I had so much to talk about, I felt you know, about what I had experienced about being a mother. And it just became important for me to reach out to other women, perhaps, who are going through what I was, in a sense. And for me, it became became mostly therapy. And what I do is I staged conceptual photographs that are that talk about my experience of mothering and my experience as a woman and a mother. Really, basically, that's what it is. And so my work basically evolved over a period of time where it came from a place of necessity, to process what I was going through. And also because I was interested in making art, rather than just doing freelance paid paid work, yeah. Yeah, something like meaningful and then something, I guess that would satisfy what what you needed to get out of it. Like you said, you needed to make art you needed to, you know, communicate to others and share your thoughts, I suppose. Yes, yes. And I think, Well, I think of myself as a thinker, and an image maker, I, I've always thought a lot. Since I was little, my mother was like, You think too much and everybody was mad? Almost You think too much. I'm like, in the beginning, I used to think that something's wrong with me. But, you know, now I've come to a point that I'm like, I'm so old. No, I don't think this is going away. This condition is not going away, I should do something about it. So um, so you know, I, I harness all of that now, you know, because you must, I guess some of us such as thinkers, and it's important for me to make pictures to visualize my interiority. I think that's, that's what I'm doing really. And taking pictures is it's meditative for me. I use it as therapy. Like one might experience flow when you swim, or you run and some people meditate. For me, this is meditation. And in that moment, I connect with the world in this uncanny way. That I'm so aware of the present, you know, in that one moment where the future doesn't exist, and the past doesn't exist, either, really, in a sense, because everything I've known up until that point, is already influencing how I'm thinking and feeling in that moment. And so therefore, it's just that one moment for me at that point and what I do with it, so I just find photography, a very meditative exercise, and I engage in it to shut everything else down. The noise, if that makes any sense? Yeah, no, it does. And I think in the beginning, when I, when I started, it was take pictures of what was in front of me waiting for a circumstance to emerge, you know, the wait, wow can be endless. And, but I think now what I do is because I want to use this as a tool to convey how I feel, and I think, so I construct images, instead of waiting for the image to happen, I, I construct them. So you use your daughter's a lot in your work, it's a wonderful connection between your art and your children. And I guess it's sort of makes sense because of what you're trying to convey. Can you share a little bit more about that? Yes. I think that when I started taking pictures of the girls in the setups in the state in the the stage photographs with the children, it was at the start of the COVID pandemic. And, you know, we were home and the kids were wanting to be busy. And I thought, well, instead of the iPad, why don't we just why don't we take pictures together. And they were quite excited about the idea. And, you know, they still like doing it with me, although now kind of waning from it, you know, the excitement is dying down. But how it started was that basically, and, and over the course of taking pictures with them, what I realized was that when I was sitting with the work, after that, post, the fact I realized that I've been living through them, in a sense, reliving my past, and reliving my childhood, you know, as we do as mothers, I write Allison, like, when you're raising your kids, and you're thinking back, like, how was I when I was how I was, you know, how was I raised and I think all of those questions are raised. And, and I think slowly, I was kind of trying to express that through my work with them. And for me, it became essential than to, to, for them to, for me to give to allow them to have a different experience than what I did in the sense not that I had that my parents had anything to do with the poor experience, but just the fact that I had when I was a little girl, I was in Delhi and you know, life is hard there for girls and I think a lot of people are aware of that. And I wanted them to grow up feeling strong about who they were as, as who they are as girls and you know, and I think therefore, for me now it seems that we take pictures together and I take pictures with them for a sense to role model how you know, that they should feel empowered and feeling in being girls and also to because I talk about motherhood and I talk about how how I feel I think it's essential for them to see that it's okay to talk about the hardships of of being a mother and not pretending that all the time that it's all fun and games and that I'm happy all the time. I think it's the role modeling aspect for me is important because I want to raise empowered girls. So when you were growing up in India, you sort of touched on the way that the guilt life for girls is hard. But you've also talked about being a deep thinker, that and your need to express and to I guess work through things you know, you've talked about your your art being a therapy. Did you have any sort of outlet or any sort of creative things that you were doing as you grew up? Or was that not even an option because you were a girl growing up in India. You know, I was very creative actually, when I was young, I actually think most kids are but especially in my house, I think because my father and my mother both were quite creative themselves. But I think they didn't have the opportunities, you know, they had to make a living and, and also for girls, and anyone in general, I think pursuing a career in art is not something that is considered as a career choice. In India at that time, it wasn't I think, now there's one liberal arts school in, in north India, the first one of its kind. So, um, but I did have a lot of artistic pursuits when I was younger I was I painted a lot. I also sang I was, I was in theater. And, you know, I used to act and I had to Hindustani classical voice lessons. So I had a very my extracurriculars, were all creative. There was I really didn't, I was no sports, nothing. It was all creative work. So I loved it. And I think that, even then, for me, art was an outlet I used to make, I remember these massive oil paintings, which I hated eventually, and I would paint all over them. Again, like my canvases. I call my mother the other day, I said, Do you still have any of my canvases, she's like, which ones. But because I was so such a perfectionist, I would paint and then I was like, Oh, this is rotten. And then I would go paint over them again. But I remember feeling like an oddball. Always because I was such a thinker. And remember, I said, I was told I was thinking too much. So I would spend time by myself a lot. And I would paint and I would listen to music and, and draw, and I think I would just spend time with myself a lot. Yeah, so it was it was a way for me to find solace. And, and process things that weren't going right with me as as a teenager or as a as a young girl. Yeah, yeah. Coming back to your photography, I'm really fascinated by some of the work that you've done, I've been having a look on your Instagram account. And I just want to go through a few of the, I guess the titles in and the projects that you've done. There's one that you did, called the COVID family portrait, which I thought was really, really cool. Tell us about that? Well, you know, I mean, do I, what happened to all the mothers during COVID, it was just, and when I say mothers, I don't want to limit it to just women who are taking care of like, I opening it up to anybody who cares for other people, you know, and I just feel like we were all exhausted. And I remember in the beginning, it was, it seemed like a we're on a holiday.It didn't last too long. And very quickly, I realized that this is not looking good, because we had groceries coming into the house. And I remember there was a scare about it spreading from surface since and my husband and I were like washing bags of stuff. And it was just really so really so frightening. And so there was a lot of work and we all know that and I was exhausted, but then I was so angry too. And in the middle, we started we started the project, I think in some in the summer, the one with the girls, and and then I was like wait a second, but I feel so angry. And I didn't I don't think I got to express that frustration until later. When I was like okay, I think I should make a picture about this. And, um, and so but I had to wait to be less upset, I think because in the moment, it would have been I wanted to I wanted it to be just something whimsical because I guess when I make work I also think about it Being somewhat beautiful for me like it has to it has to communicate something essential. But it also, for me, I feel like I needed to be beautiful. I mean, and whatever my concept of beauty is, is what I'm obviously going out here. And so it took me a while to mull this one over. It's like, how should I shoot this one? And I love pink. And it was springtime, when I shot that one. So, you know, then it became a no brainer, fatigued, mom, kids on their devices and father on the phone all day. So that was that. Yeah, so that was a, you know, an interesting one. And I think a lot of people related to it. It resonated with a lot of families. Yeah, so interesting. Shooting that one with everybody. They were laughing my whole family, they were like, are we really doing this? I said, Yeah, isn't this the truth, though? Then the kids looked at me. And they had a nice laugh. And my husband's like, I do not, do not circulate this. If my colleagues see this stuff. I'm like, relax. It's only the truth. You're not You're not showing anything? That's not, you know, real. Yeah, but just on on that, when you said about how you're really angry, and then you sort of waited before you did the shoot? Did you have any sort of idea in your head? How that might have looked if you had a shot at when you were angry? I think the reason, there's two reasons why I think I don't, I don't make work when I'm extremely. When I'm when I'm in that emotion. I think the one reason is that my thinking brain doesn't work quite well. It's a very basic and a very standard, like a really technical reason is that when I'm really emotional, I'm not able to focus very well, if that makes any sense. I wouldn't be able to make it fun for the family is the second reason because I think when I'm taking pictures with the kids, I need them to know that even though that this is something that is difficult, difficult emotion or a difficult message, that we're going to do it in a way that's light and acceptable for the children, because I don't want them walking away feeling that they did something that was upsetting to them. Yeah. And I'm actually overall quite conscious about that when I work with them, because I want them to have good feelings. And I'd be agreeable about the work we make together the work they make with me. Because they're old enough to have that conversation with me. You know, it's not like they're there. You know, when we started, they were I think they were seven and 10. So, so they were old enough to understand what was going on. And so it's always been important to me that they that they're okay with what I'm sorry, that's such a long winded reply to me, no, this is perfect. This is where I'm trying to go with it. I think that you don't just use your children as a prop, you don't just put them there and say, look like this, you're actually explaining to them what the message you're trying to convey so they can understand their part of what you're creating, I suppose. Yes, yes, absolutely. when they were younger, of course, and I was taking pictures of them playing on the beach or doing something like that. It was different, you know, and but I've always been quite conscious about their agency, you know, I want them to have that agency. And I think it's because when I was young, I didn't and I feel also that if I want them to be people who express themselves and ask for what they want, then they then I have to, I have to start giving them that authority in their lives. Yeah, that's so important, isn't it? Yeah. Well, this was, you know, Well, initially, this was a part of community where, you know, my daughters and I made over the pandemic, massive, it was a very big series. And then I think later, I thought about the little bits that we did talking about plastic pollution with a an eye that I did, specifically, specifically, just with the little one. And I saw I pulled it out as another set. But, um, in that we, the little one was had assignment from school, she was very interested in the pollution of our oceans. And she became very upset when she watched the video on the, you know, the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. Yes, yeah. And she couldn't believe it. She was she was beside herself. She is also she's between my two children. I think she's also quite, she feels a lot more she's kind of like, she's kind of, you know, how can I describe, she feels the pain of everybody that lives. And so when she read that, and she learned about all the, the sea animals than the sea life that was being harmed, she was upset. And I think it gave me an opportunity to go in there and, and talk about that a little bit more. And we talked about things like using straws. And using plastic bags, and plastic water bottles. And I said, Listen, you know, I think that we, we can agree that we should refuse the straw when you go to the restaurants and they seem to agree. Yeah. So I think I just use that as a moment for them to educate them and to, to solidify what they learned and, and specifically with a little one, she and I thought let's make pictures with it. Because that's what, that's what I do. Let's make pictures. No brainer. So So I think with the series, we were just trying to communicate how you know, this how a sea creature or a sea animal or a turtle or a you know, a pelican might feel or a seagull might feel when they ingest plastic or and how enlightening the suffocation of the planet to the suffocation of this little girl, my daughter who's in who's in the series. So kind of drawing attention to that subject. And having my daughter who is seven to present the subject to kind of to convey the the the need for people to consider this being you know, a significant issue that our world faces today. Yeah yeah. Yes. Yes, it is. It's absolutely that because I'm I mean, I'm you know, in my case, I don't you know, might be different for but I think mostly it is. It was like that. My mother didn't we didn't ever talk about it. My mother never talked to me about how it was. And I remember I had my my first my daughter and I came back home. Obviously I thought now I know how to feed my child. Because the nurse showed me how to do this. I can do this. And I came home and that night I remember I was sitting on the edge of the bed Then I was sobbing because I had no idea how to breastfeed my child. And I was like, Oh, I have no milk, I have no milk. And I remember sobbing, because I thought, I'm not lactating. And, she looked at me, she says, You have, she just comforted me, and she just sent me back home, give me a big hug and said, you fine, everything's fine. Go back home. But I guess what I was trying to say was that that was the first time I ever felt guilt. I was like, I'm a horrible mother. I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to have milk, which is like, so stupid. Why would I know how to have milk? Why would I? Why would I know this stuff? Like, yeah, oh, no, no, I'm supposed to know it. Because like, this is natural. No, it's not. I don't, you know, so I. Yeah, I think that I'm not even. .. In fact, I'm gonna say this. I don't, I don't think that I ever thought about who I was before I realized didn't know who I was. You know, I mean, it was. And I think the loss happened over a period of time. I remember I quit work when the older daughter was born when our oldest daughter was born. Because I didn't have adequate maternity leave. And I couldn't imagine leaving her in like 40 days and going back to work. So my husband could support us. And I said, Okay, you know, I'm just going to this was in Dubai, and I said, Okay, I'm just gonna stay home. And I was really excited to be a mother, actually, I was really looking forward to it. I always wanted to be a mom. And so this was very exciting time for me. But, you know, over a period of time into the birth of the second girl, I, I started realizing how much I was losing control over elements of my life. Does that make any sense? But my, my little girl was about one and a half, I think it was 2014 some time. And I started to realize that I was so fragmented. I didn't know who I was. Like, who am I, I was always so invested in everyone else's life. And I think we were out to a friend's house. And we were, you know, talking and my friends and my husband, they were engaged in this very riveting conversation about something current, which I was not current with. And I was trying to follow through desperately, the conversation and my kids came over. And as always, you know how they come to you when they my older daughter, and she started, you know, I need to go to the bathroom, I need to go to the bathroom. And so I took her. And when I came back, I was totally lost. And I realized that, in that one moment, it hit me when I realized and probably, you know, you'd wonder why. But I think I'd been feeling it for a while feeling like, I don't fit in feeling like I don't understand what's going on. And I think in that one moment, I was like, Alright, that's it. I need to do something about this. Yeah, I can't, I can't live like a normal like, I don't who am I? I need to find myself again. I think that's what happened. Yeah. And you weren't going to perhaps let the fact that you were a Mum, stop you from that, like in that that actual physical act of your child needing you and removing you from a conversation was sort of an analogy of you've been removed from the world because you are a mother. And if I don't put words in your mouth, but that's how I guess I'm hearing. It's like, that's a really powerful thing to connect and go. Ah, not not liking this. This is going to change. Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. I think you phrase that very well. And I think I think what happened was that it was a crisis. Really, when I think back at that time, I didn't think I really had to. Even now, like every day that passes, I, I see it better. I yeah, I see I see myself better now than I did then. And I was lost, and I was very unhappy. And only I knew that. And I was I felt guilty that I had everything that I needed. I had a I had healthy children, you know how it is like you have a you have a happy family in a sense and and saying why do I still feel so empty? And and you know, I said, I'm a thinker. So what do I like what's going on? My children are flourishing and I was diminishing that It was something wrong there. And I think I had to acknowledge that. And, and, and I knew, and I knew that it was because I, since I was about 16, I had been working part time. And I think that being dependent, and being and being on, and, you know, kind of losing myself was very hard for me to. And yeah, so I decided that I'm going to take pictures for a living, but I had to wait a bit, I had to wait for the little one to, you know, get to a point where I can kind of pull myself out, it takes time, once you decide, but then by the time you get to it, you know, that you made that decision. And that's, that's the most important step, I think. Because without that, you nothing else come. So, you know, you've got an in your head that this is where I'm going to be this is what's going to happen, and you can make it happen slowly, you know, over a period of time. And, you know, physical barriers, you know, you still have to actually, you know, you've got a child here, you you can't just go off if you sort yourself out while I go do this, you know, physically, you know, limitations that life gives you, but you made it happen. You did it. And that's just tremendous. Just love that. Yeah, yeah, I think that it's, I think I think eventually in life, as you said, it's just essential that we all try, you know, trying is all that is needed. And I think no matter how hard it is to balance your professional life or whatever, your whatever, something for yourself with being a mother, because that's not just who we are. We're so much more than that. And I think that it's very important, even if we have to, even if it takes time, like you said, no matter how long it takes, and we may not get there. But I think as I'm saying this, you know, it might sound crazy, and I mean it get there like, but I think the trying is what is most essential. Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah that's. I find it so fascinating that there can be such liberated women that have been raised by women that maybe weren't like that. It's like, you must have got a sense of it from something, you know what I mean? Like, where did that come from? And yeah, yeah, and I just find it. So think that it's very interesting. And I think and I think about that, because I kind of all my role models were women who, who have, you know, mothered in a patriarchal world. And I also mother like that for for many years. I guess the time that I realized I needed to make a change, quite frankly, was when I when I got introduced to I don't know if you know about her birth name is Andrea O'Reilly. She's, she's written. She teaches motherhood studies. In Canada in I think it's York University. Don't quote me on it. But um, she she's written a book about theory and practice of Metro centric feminism. And probably taking this totally off tangent. Oh, no, but I guess what I was trying to say was that I think that when, you know, when I was making work about mothering and motherhood, I became introduced, I got introduced to a whole bunch of, of my other artists who, you know, who I met, just because I, you know, spoke at a conference, I think in 2021. Oh, yeah. Last year. Yeah. And and I gradually learned about these. I mean, I was making look about put the mother first you know, like, let's talk about what it really looks like without knowing that. There are so many people out there who do the same thing. Of course, you there are others. photographers as well, who've done it, who you know whose work I was aware of. But that is a movement now and that more and more we're talking about this, and how important this identity is, and how important it is to kind of live the life that you want your children to have. And I think reading reading the books that have read now, and reading the, you know, opinions of, I think there have been some psychologists who have talked about this, that you have to model the behavior that you expect, and it's not enough to, like I was telling my kids all the time, should never compromise, you should never do this, you know, but it's all just talk unless you actually live it. So I think then it became really important for me to have a life and a career and pursue something that I love to do, notwithstanding my circumstances, and, you know, trying really hard to make way for myself and speak my mind. And yeah, so I guess that's how, I guess we all we all. And also, I think it's when I stepped away from where I was the environment in which I was, which was, you know, India, or, you know, the family that I was surrounded by, that I could actually see it objectively from a distance. And I think that kind of then helps, then it helped me kind of put things into perspective being the distance helped. And yeah, yeah, that from a different angle from a long way away, yes yeah. Alison : I had a sort of similar situation to some degree, when, when my first son was born, and I'd worked full time since I was, I left school, and I actually got a job before I left school. So I basically just went into work, and I'd worked full time till I was 20. He's 29 When I had my first child, so that's a long time. And I was very independent, I was raised. You know, I had a lot of strong, independent women around me that always said, make sure you have your own money, you know, this, that and the other. Even my husband and I, to this day, we still do our own washing, you know, we don't I don't iron his clothes, because I don't know how to because he can do it better than me. You know, we're very, we've got a weird setup, but, but when I actually had my child, and I was sitting at home on the floor one day playing with him. And I had this realization that this is my life now. Like, there is nothing else for me to go and do. I was thinking I've got to what do I need to do? I had this sense in me like, What have I got to do? There was like, you don't have to do this is you now this is this is your life. Now I just sort of sat there and just thought, Oh, God, like I had this. It just made me feel so almost defeated. Like, I'm not independent anymore. You know, I've got this little person to look after who I loved, you know, obviously, but I just thought, oh, wow, this is me now. And I felt really defeated. It was just a really feeling like, Yeah, this is you now like, yeah, and that's horrible to say it out loud. But yeah. And so then I had to make myself find things that would be a part of my life now that would make me feel uplifted and give me the feelings that I had, you know, being an independent woman and going to work. How else could I get those feelings that I wanted to feel? And like and same thing over time? You know, over time? Shweta: Yeah. I mean, I think it's really important to talk about that. And I'm so glad that you mentioned that. And I don't think that it's horrible at all. Like I just I feel like it's so real. Because you're someone right and then overnight, you're not that person anymore. Yeah, it's pretty. It's huge. And it isn't like it's just so why doesn't anybody talk like, why don't we talk about this? It's such a significant thing the mental Oh, no transition. It's so significant. And there's no conversation about it. And I remember like talking to my mom, like, why wouldn't you ever tell me? And she said, Well, there's no, there was nothing to tell you. I'm like 50% of the population go through it. She looked at me. I said, that does not make it any less significant. Hmm. You know, that's the thing that I don't I'm like, Just because people just add weight that 50% is women. If it was men. My elbow hurts. I'm like, just you know. I thought kids out, buddy. You don't get to talk about your elbow. Yeah. Yeah. Like CSC is like, if those 50% were men, it would be a diff. This would be a different. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we would be having like, classes for these things. Like, many are about to pop babies out. Come and roll yourself. Yeah. You. This is how you're going to feel lessons. Yes, yeah. Oh, boy. Oh, you're spot on that you spot on? And I think, yeah, like, you're a little bit crazy there. Oh, no, oh, my god, grab this opportunity to make fun do it. You know, and it just sounds like I'm not a man hater. I love him. You know, it's, it's just that it's just that I feel that it's high time we just, we were, you know, talking about these things and not, and moms and I want to mention this, this. I was reading a book, I think it's this Andrea Riley's book where she takes a little excerpt from Susan Maushart. yeah, who talks about the mask of motherhood, basically, Mask of Motherhood. And it's basically is not just a mask, it's not just a facade of what, you know, a facade that which we hide behind, you know, telling ourselves that everything is perfect, and everything is beautiful. And not only are people around us responsible for that, but it's also us that we have to take ownership for, for putting on that mask for letting it propagate. So I think that it's essential for us to be more honest about how we feel and, and talk about it. And, and it's okay, because we love our kids. You know, it's, we love them. We I mean, if if, if there was a bison coming at us, we would we would be the ones under the bus, not the kids like we would give our lives for our kids. But the ambivalence, you know, there is ambivalence, and it's important to talk about that. And it's human to talk about that. Yeah, yeah. I think the way I sort of make sense of it, like you were saying before, it's meant to come naturally, you know, you're meant to know how to breastfeed you meant to know how to feel you're meant to know what to do. And because I think there's that, that what's the word, expectation that you're meant to know what to do? So everybody just goes up? She's got a baby now, she'll be fine. Because she isn't, she'll know what to do. You know, it's just, that's what I think sets everything up for, for all this, these feelings. Because then when we don't know what to do, you know, we get that guilt we get, we feel like we failed. Alison: You know, I felt like, like I had trouble breastfeeding my first child. Turns out, it's because he was so sleepy. He just wouldn't wake up to be fed. He was ridiculous. And then all of a sudden that six weeks he woke up and we were fine. But in that time, when it was a struggle, I felt like an absolute failure because like, I'm the Mum, I'm the one who's meant to feed this child. And why isn't it happening? It must be my fault. You know? It couldn't be anybody else's fault. It was my fault. You know, this is what we put on ourselves because we're conditioned to think that we were meant to know what to do and it's all natural and normal. And, you know, we've got to Change You're listening to the art of being a mum with my mom, Alison Newman Shweta: I don't know if I'm raising you up to this, but I thought this was a great time to talk about mom guilt. Oh, yes. I just, you know, and I could write a book on this. Because also, like, it's such an awful emotion guilt in itself is such an awful emotion. And, and I'm saying this, you know, off the heels of what you just said, guilt is a socially enforced emotion. And it's, we're raised to experience guilt as a marker that will guide us towards more socially acceptable behaviors. Yeah, all humans feel it. But but because those who mother feel responsible for a huge variety of things. Right, it opens up more avenues for us to experience guilt in our lives as carers. Yeah, absolutely. It's like just so much more that we do and taking care of other people's lives. And, but, but the truth is that the practice of of mothering responds to circumstances in which we raise our children. You know, like, if you're a mother in India, you're different than a mother in the US. Or if you're a mother in the UK, you might be different than somebody who's raising their children in a tribe in Africa, like, or Japan like, I think that motherhood is a socially constructed. Institution. It's a patriarch, I mean, I think it's Adrienne Rich, who, who distinguishes the institution of motherhood, from the practice of mothering. And the fact that mothering is in response to circumstance and to the needs of the place where you're raising your child. And it is, and the institution of motherhood is influenced by the expectations loaded onto us by society, by cultural representations of what mothers should look like, like, oh, you know, you should know how to breastfeed really? No, I don't. Or you know, like, things like that, and, or, like, you know, mothers are supposed to, I don't know, making this up, stay home with the kids not go to work. And but in places where neoliberalism is all the rage, mothers are supposed to go to work and take care of their kids and take care of their husbands and have beautiful, shiny homes, and do all of it all, like, How can you even possibly do it all and feel like and feel like a success? Like something's got to give, you know, like, you're going to understand the problem with this is that no matter how you look at it, because of all of these expectations that we're trying to live up to, we will never feel like successes. You know, it's like we're in a sense, we're set up to fail. Yes, we think, yeah, no, I agree with that. It's interesting. You're talking about? It just reminded me of it. I had a guest on probably, I think it was episode three or four. Her name is Rachel power. And she's written. You know her! I loved that. It did. Oh, yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah. I love that one. Yeah. And she was her book, The divided heart art and motherhood for anyone that's interested. It really goes deep into this. And she the way she described the, you know, the feminists have had sort of led the way for us and told us that we could have it all we could have a job, we could do this, we could do that. Yeah. But then the moment you become a mother, you know, what happens that all of it just disappears. And then you're left questioning yourself, like, I thought I could, I thought I could do this, but now society is going actually no, you can't like, you know, it's really challenging to lose, we lose all the gains of feminism when we become mothers. And, and, and, you know, Andrea O'Rilley talks about this in her book, and she talks about how mothers need their own feminism. We need our own because we have different needs. You know, yeah, women have mothers and mothers have their needs and mothers and mothers including anyone, em slash mothers, mothers, you know, like anybody mother and other who's taking care of, you know, because now there's different ways of being of being a mother and doing the job of mothering. Yeah, but I think, you know, absolutely. Spot on there. You know, that there is no gain when it comes to us and we need we need a feminism of our own innocence. Hmm. So Andrea O'Reilly I'm going to look her up because she sounds like someone that I want to talk to. Goddess. Goddess in the flesh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think oh my god, it would be quite smashing. If you'd If you can, if you can have her because I mean, I, I just I think there's so much of what I read that opened me up when I read her books. And I think it's it's what I've drawn from what I've drawn from it really is that we have to really be open to talking about this and asking for what we need. And I don't know how far you can go to exert political influence, because at the moment, you know, as far as where I live in America in in, you know, the US, we don't even have universal maternity leave. It's it's absolutely bizarre to me that look, this country does not have. Yeah, it's yeah, it's really, I mean, I remember being here and coming here and thinking, I really honestly think if I was somewhere else, my experience would have been different. And what I realized over here was that women mothers were doing so much, so much, so much. And overwhelmed. And the ones who were home with the kids like me, when I was a stay at home mother for a very long time, I still think I am one, I don't think that's ever going to, you know, my kids are my central focus. But, uh, you know, I, you know, when I went, and those women were so isolated. And yes, you might come out and meet other moms in your coffee chat groups and things like that. But it's, there was no real, like exchange of conversation where you could say that, what do we really need? And how can we get there? I think one cannot really get too far. If, you know, the, you know, you don't have much support. Apparently, we have no political consequence. You know, so yeah. Alison: And honestly, I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna sound like I'm bagging America, do it. I don't know, Australia is an amazing place. When I compare it to other places in the world, you know, we have universal health care. We have paid maternity leave system, we've got paid paternity leave system. And then you think America is supposed to be the best place in the world, the greatest country on Earth, and you think you can't even go to the hospital and get fixed up without paying a bill of 20 $30,000? And I just don't understand, I just think how can you not be up with the times of the world of what people deserve and expect and worthy of, you know, like, how hard is it? You know, we we've got this Medicare system over here where everybody, you know, that earns over a certain amount of money, a portion of their tax goes to Medicare. And it's simple. I mean, and it's not simple, but you know what I mean, it sounds very simple and traightforward. And I know this, there's still issues with our health care system, nothing's perfect, and nothing can ever be perfect. There's always things that can be improved. But I think, God, the amount of times I've taken my children to the hospital in the middle of the night, because they've had a bit of a croupy cough, or they're in pain, and I'm not sure why. If I had a barrier of money, in a way, I would never have done that stuff. And you just think, How can a society a modern society functioning that way? Where money Is the the thing that stops you from taking care of yourself? Shweta: Yes, I think it's definitely something of concern. And of course, they're riding on the backs of so many women who, who, who basically raised the next generation without any support, in a sense. And it's essential, what recently what is bugging me is that we do not have good mental health insurance. And there's an there's, there's a different pandemic now. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, and it's, and it's really upsetting that I go to the doctor's like, oh, I need a therapist. There isn't any good therapist that your insurance covers. I don't first of all, I don't even know, good, bad. But I just feel like if I start the process with someone, I should trust that person. And I'm not going to go, oh, after three sessions, you're no good. I'm gonna go. Like it's very hard. I think for people who like for someone who like when I go into depression, or when I have anxiety I have, I've always managed anxiety for many years. And for me to actually pick up the phone and say, I'm not going to call a therapist and make an appointment takes a lot of effort. And when you don't have faith in the system, it just gets so much harder. And then I'm sorry But he who can probably even afford to pay? You know, a few, a few sessions, and I think about all of the millions of people who can't. And it's when healthcare becomes a thing of privilege, it's frightening. Yeah, it is, isn't it? It really is. Yeah, it is. I think it's quite, it's quite saddening, and I think the fact that even if there have been many ways to have physical health care, I think, I think what's really very important is men's mental health care. And which I think we're really far behind on. It's frustrating. Yeah. Yeah. Look, honestly from observing from across the world. It's just it makes no sense. It really makes no sense. I think if you are going to be a capitalist, sorry, sorry. No, go on. Go on. I was just going to continue going. Oh, it makes no sense. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I can totally understand how it looks from far away. And I mean, I honestly, like I just feel like because we are such a capitalist country, like, the most. Something has to suffer.We're about making money. Yeah, exactly. No, yeah. matriarchal systems of business, where you're, you're basically respected for how much? How much money can you make. And so therefore, in a place like this, where you're somebody who's paying attention, just raising your children, and raising them to be good human beings, and with values and, and all of this, none of that has value? Yeah. You tell the mother that she's noble, yet, you know, you create a circumstance in which she cannot feel fulfilled, because what you really value is money, and money making. Yes. So I think that that's very demoralizing for so many people who, who care for other lives and compromise on, you know, livelihoods. Absolutely. And then you add to that the fact that there's so many makers, you know, that make art or, you know, music or any sort of thing, and because they're not making a living from it, then that is devalued, as well, because you're not making money. So it's less worth than someone who is making money from it. You know, that's a house, I think it's really hard to balance a Korean art and be somebody who's, who's caring to occur. Because just by the nature of art itself, right. Like, it's, it's difficult to know what you're doing and how it's going to be appreciated. And when you're making work, it's so personal, sometimes the work you make, and, and soI think that circumstances, make it so difficult for artists, mothers, and you know, so we need each other basically, you know, we need to lift each other up. And I think that's, yeah, yeah. That's the thing. We've got to feel like, we've got to sort of the change has to come with from within first, I think, because the outside have their own views, and they're the ones continuing to hold these views. But then if Yeah, all the mothers say No, that's wrong. And everyone, you know, revolts against that, if for one have a better word. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know why was saying that, you know, like, you know, that the fact that we actually turn a blind eye to others and things like that, and I remember, it's like, you can obviously see them at drop off cant you see their faces? You know, I mean, sorry, I don't know where that came from. No, but I was just thinking about that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's quite obvious that they need that, you know, and I and I, and I feel sometimes like we live such isolated lives. And the whole idea of the nuclear family and living in you know, a capitalist country and a nuclear family is the fact that you're isolated in your experiences. And, you know, and so, I think that, that just aggravates an already difficult situation. Because I was like, always imagine and fantasize, oh, my gosh, if my mother lived across the door from me, how wonderful would that be? Yeah, I can't handle this get any more "throw". Catch mom catch!! Oh, I love that. But that's true, though, isn't it? It's like in years gone by, you know, this the saying of, you know, it takes a village to raise a child. That was true. That was actually what would happen. You'd have people all around you all the time. And it's like we're forcing people apart seems to be no way the world is really a lot and I I'm glad we're talking about it. It's you know, yeah. He said what's the first steps to making changes? You know, yes, in deciding Think it was to 2021, there was a conference that was held by the University of Bolton and in the UK. nd we talked and the conference was about the idea of the missing mother. That's what the conference title was. And how the mother has been missing in the representation of the representation of the mother has been missing in various disciplines and in art in particular. And the invitation was for, you know, academics and artists, to researchers to come and talk about to talk about the subject and share their work. And yeah, I so I, you know, talked about my experience and how, how, basically, our helped me pivot, in a sense, that's what I used it for. It was my lifeline, to be quite honest. Yeah. And, and it brought me back to life. And, yeah, so yeah, I, I also present people's I talk about, I talk about my experience, I can, you know, that was one conference, I talked. And just quite recently, there was a conference that was held by the Museum of motherhood in Florida. And I also presented a paper and my work at that conference. And basically, the idea is really to, you know, to talk about my experience to meet other, you know, individuals who, you know, have research to share, constantly learning about wonderful issues related to the lives of mothers and mothering and, and, you know, because the representations come from various fields, it's always enriching to learn about, and hear from such people. And I think, because it was always important for me to, I had decided I'm going to talk about this. Because it was important to me, because I felt that I didn't find many people that would talk to me, and how I felt. So I think I, for me, it's not just enough to make, you know, work like photographs and, you know, stage photographs. I also like to present and talk and listen to other people who are doing research in these areas, huh? Oh, good on you. That's great. I'm gonna have to look some of these things up. You've given me so many things. I'm happy to share. Yeah, I'm gonna share some I can share some links with you and right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, thank you, that would be wonderful. I was, I was thinking about this when we talking about the guilt thing. And I thought that a lot of a lot of mothers who end up working, while they're kids a little will will say to me, you know, I, I'm a better mother when I go to work. And I always used to wonder about that. And I still do, and I just feel that I always, you know, you know, consider that you're a better mother if you go to work, but then why do we Why do we always have to make it about the kids? You know, why? Why not for you? Like, I think that because society has so much pressure on us for putting the kids first, you know, so everything that we do is for the kids, but I actually hope that we can come to a point where we can say I go to work or I do this because it makes me happy. You know, because I need it for myself. Exactly. And not and not say because, you know, I'm not saying that's the wrong thing to feel. I'm just I'm just hoping that we could claim we can claim that thing that we do for ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting perspective, isn't it? It's like, we have to be feel good for somebody else, you know, not just for ourselves, if that makes sense, right? Yeah. I yeah, I think that really it is what it is, is that I think, once your mother that that's the only identity that you perhaps feel very strongly about, but we're more than mothers and wives and, or partners and, and daughters, where we, you know, like, individuals? Yeah, no, I haven't heard any dads say that. I'm a better dad when I go to work. LOL Now that the girls are older, I have more time to spend on my practice. But when they were younger, and until almost a year ago, I was doing a lot of housework and Mother work. You know, and I think during the pandemic, I developed a practice to journal every day, and make, you know, Things To Do list because without that, I'm just like, headless chicken all over the place. Um, so, you know, I make a list, and I and I, and the list has a lot of chores on it, it has, you know, freelance work stuff that I have to do on it, it has, you know, make creative, make room for admin work on it, you know, so it's a, it's an extensive list, but everyday doesn't have too much on it. Because I've realized that there's only so much time you have, right, and, but I follow the list, and I, and I put tick marks on the list, like a little child's like, yes, yes. Yes. That's right. Like, it's so satisfying, tick things off. And, and, you know, and then of course, I also write whatever I didn't write down on the list, also, that I ended up doing. Because sometimes once you feel like, oh my gosh, where did my day go? I just did like two out of five of my list. But what was I doing? So I think that earlier, I would feel defeated. But now I just write it all down. So, you know, I end up with some sense of accomplishment, like, alright, I was doing this. And I stopped being hard on myself, really, I think I, I have, you know, take it with a little grain of salt. Okay, I didn't get to doing this today. So I do tomorrow, you know, so I, I think that you also have to build in a little humor in your life. You know, you're like, Okay, I got rejected by this residency. Alright, on to the next one. And I just got, you know, got a rejection letter for an exhibition. And I was really bummed for about, like, I don't know, 16 hours. And then, of course, I have such a wonderful support group. And I reached out to my mentor, and, and I reached out to another mom, and she's like, you know, what, sometimes you just need people to remind you of the stuff that you already know. So it's so important to have like people in your life who will, you know, lift you up? And you know, just give you that little bit of a lift when you need it. Yeah, like, this one's not going. So let's go on to the next one now. So yeah, yeah. And I think the important thing that I, that I didn't do before that I do now is that I asked for what I need from my family and my kids. You know, like, it's not all about them. Obviously, but you know, you're Yes, yes, you're setting them up for failure. I think if you just, you know, I'm the same if I'm in here, editing or recording or something, and someone will come in and say, Mom, can you do this? I'm like, actually, I can't do it right now. But same thing, you know, give me five or 10 minutes, and then I'll do it. You know, and it's like, yeah, that's reasonable. You know, that's a reasonable expectation for your child to to understand that. That is actually okay. You know? Yes, absolutely. You know, I think that in the beginning, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't do that at all. And I had, right, I was like, I and I, and I still know a few mothers who, who live like that. And, and, you know, it's hard, because then you it's said, what about me? Exactly. And I think that that question is very important. You know, what about me? What about what I want? And I think that you definitely cannot hope to achieve anything for yourself, if you don't set the boundaries. So that I think that's pretty. And it's good for them. I think that the children also will learn when they if they choose to become mothers, that, that it's okay to do that. Yeah, I remember when I, when I was little, my mother would, my mother would be like, I'm drinking tea right now come back to me later, you know, so she was definitely not there. Because, you know, she also worked and, you know, she was not there for me all the time. But she was lovely mother, and she still is. And I think that. But you know, I kind of got into the trap of saying, oh, whatever you want, guys, whatever you want. But I think the significance. Yeah, so just simple things, writing everything down. I journal every day. And I make lists. And I asked for what I want. And I also think that everybody's experience is different of mothering. And what they need is different. So I think the real need is to sit with oneself and ask oneself, what do I need? What do I really need? And go for it? You know, like, you matter? I think that you matter, and you're important. And you know, I'm just asking for what you need is important, because because a lot of times we don't ask because we're afraid of we're afraid of what might happen. You know, what the answer might be, but I think that it's we don't mothers don't really ask the things we just give and I think that's, it has to you, we have to ask for what we want. Yeah, I agree. I think I think we're also afraid of inconveniencing other people, because the mums job is supposed to be making everybody happy and making everything good and right for everyone. But then if we sort of upset the applecart so hang on a second. Yeah. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot to be said. Yeah. And I think, and I think the other thing is that there's no straight path to this. And we all have to pivot. I think because of what we do, and the nature of what we do is, and every moment presents itself differently, sometimes you don't know, like, suddenly my kid is going to fall from the swings, and I have to rush like, this has happened right? With you, too, I'm sure where you have to rush your kids to the doctor, like drop everything and go. And usually it's me because my husband has a corporate job, and I'm closer to the kids locationally You know, school is closer to, to our house than it has to his office besides, you know, he's in calls and, and, you know, like, it's my primary responsibility. So I have to drop everything and go. But, you know, in the beginning, I would be like, quite, you know, helicopter in a sense, I would be hovering around them making sure like going overextending myself and, and I still do those things, but I don't, but I but I have, you know, everything what i've what I figured is that everything will be all right. You know, eventually, you know, like, we, you know, like, we don't have to lose sleep over every second of the kid's life, like, you know, it will be alright, and I think that I have to be ready to pivot and to take everything, you know, lightly laugh off some serious things in life. And the kids also learned to do that with me. So now, they also learn to pivot so I think it's a it's a work in progress. You know, it's still hard but we make it work, and I'm good on you know, yeah. So if you've got anything you're working on anything coming up that you want to share with the listeners to sort of look out for any, any sort of projects or work? well, you know, these days I'm I'm working on a new series, I haven't started posting that on Instagram yet, I've suddenly feeling quite protective of the work that I'm making, you know, because everything is just so personal. And it comes from a place of deep feeling. And I you know, that with this particular work that I'm making with the girls. They'll walk up to me, and they'll be like, so what are we doing today? It's funny, they'll come to me. And you know, the way I've trained them, so Well, I feel like they'll come to me and say, so what are we shooting today? Because when I set the lights up and things, and then I'll say, and I'll tell them, then they say, then the next question is, so what is that supposed to mean? Like, do you really have to know every time? But that is absolutely I love it. It's amazing. And sometimes I'm like, can we just get through it? And then I'll tell you, No, Mama, how about you tell it tell us first? And then and then well, I'm like, Okay, fine. Stop being lazy. And like, so I tell them? And then and then my next question always is, are you okay doing this? And then they'll say yes. Or they say no. But usually they'll say yes. Because I'm, you know, I'm quite clever in the sense that I don't, I don't pursue subjects that I know will put them in a spot, you know, because I don't want because they will they. I revere my kids. I mean, this might sound crazy, but I have this deep reverence for them. It's not just love, I, I really respect and look up to them for so many things. Like, they're just so wonderful. And they're so innocent, and they're just so loving and so inclusive. And so they're there, you know, when they're agreeable to do something, and when, when they're not, they will still look at me and think, Is mom gonna get hurt? Because I say no. So sometimes, they will say yes, and I don't want that. Because I don't want that. I don't want them doing that. So I'd be like, Are you sure? Anyway, so So these days, I'm making something, and I'm, they both are growing older, and my older daughter has started her periods, and the little one, you know, she, she's now nine. And she suddenly changed over the past year or so. And, you know, like, how we talk about kids having coming to the age of reason, you know, I was the kind of, I think it's kind of between seven and nine years old. And she, she knows her place in the world, and she knows, you know, if and when, you know, consequences, and of actions, and good and bad, and morality, and she's quite in that space right now, where she's thinking about all these things, and she's no longer a child. And, and I can see that they're becoming more independent. And I've become obsessed with, with time, I feel I can feel my biological clock. And I'm so concerned with time, and it's impermanence, and how my daughters have my time in their hands, you know, and the fragility of this moment, and how little we think of now, you know, like this moment. And I become so conscious that they're letting go of me in so many ways. And so, so I'm thinking, I, I want to let go, but I also want to hold on to them. And, you know, I'm aging, and they're blossoming. So these things are happening all at once, and I'm thinking of all these things, and you know, they're maturing, I'm happy, but I'm also I'm also Chad melancholic, you know, at the loss of their childhood. And I'm relieved that I have more time, but I'm wistful for the tender moments that I've spent with them when they were little. So there's this we're in this liminal space, and I'm curious about it. And that's what I'm hoping to explore. Hmm, yeah. Theres this song. One of my guests, wrote. Jen Lush she was in one of the episodes last year and she wrote this song and it started off with I want to put you in glass. And that was the way she wanted to stop her children from growing and it was just this. When I when I heard that I was like, oh, you know all the pulls on the heartstrings like oh my gosh, my babies are growing up, you know, and it's just you just want to stop like every, like, every time you look at them. They're growing. They're getting older, every moment that goes past they're getting older and you just think no, slow down. No, no, it's Yeah. Yeah, it's, it is quite a difficult. Every, every every time as the ages is presents something different to us. And a different volley of emotions again, you know, like, I feel like it never ends. It's like, I need to breathe. Like, wait a second. Can I ever be happy? Like my kids are not finally growing up. I don't have to clean their bums. I don't have to stand in attendance. I don't have to say, now write this down. And like I'm like, oh my god, can I just do that again? Lovely. I'm looking forward to seeing how that presents itself. That will be very exciting to see. Oh, yeah, I love that. Let's listen this has been a delightful discussion. I've it's been beautiful. Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me. It really is a pleasure to have you. This episode contains discussion around anxiety and depression, and was recorded prior to the United States Supreme Court's overturning of Roe versus Wade. Music you'll hear today is from Australia New Age trio, LM J, which features myself my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and is used with permission. I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you, Alison. Yeah, it's lovely to meet you. Likewise, you at the moment you. You're in New York City. Is that right? Yes. Yes. I live in I live in Manhattan. Wow. So like right in the thick of it? Yes. Yes, it can get busy here. So you're a photographer, but not the sort of necessarily the style of photography that most people would think of when they think of a photographer. So can you share with us what your sort of style is and and perhaps why you do do things the way you do? So well, I when I started taking pictures, it was before the children were born. And I remember I bought my first camera in actual camera in Dubai in 2008. And at that time, I worked for love. Thanks. And the other one I want to ask that is, you did a plastic series? I'm glad you brought up about that, what you're just saying about the identity, because that's something I really love to explore with moms on this show is how, how violently your life changes and how you see yourself changes. You know, and that analogy you said, Have you felt like you've been hit by a truck. You know, that's literally what it is, isn't it? If you just Yes, you just get belted. I'm having tea right now, give me 10 minutes, come back to me in 10 minutes. Because, you know, they see us and they just come running into the room is like, I need this right now. And I look at them, and I'll say, you need to give me 10 minutes, and I will come to you. Or, you know, whatever you need to do you need me to do per posted on my computer. So they write what they need. And they stick it on my screen at the bottom of my on the bottom of my computer screen. And so that's like a reminder for me. Alright, so when I get done with my task, then I do what they need me to do. So I think that I've built up a system where the kids also know now that they just can't walk into the room and declare, I need grilled cheese right now. I'm like, sorry, you're not gonna get it. You need to wait. Yeah, you're just asking for things. Yeah, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting your boundaries with your children. I think throughout my work in childcare, I think parents have this idea that they have to be at the beck and call of their children. They have to keep the children happy. And you're actually an you know, you've you've you've got to set them up for for the real world to like, you know, when they get out in the world. The world isn't gonna stop for them when they want something, you know, I think it's actually responsible of a parent to SET set boundaries and expectations around where children fit into the world and not in a kind way. Wipe your bums. But can you hold my hand? Exactly. Yeah, it's just like, it's it's it's a ride. We're on a roller coaster here. I guess. Yeah. I'm you know, it's just something all of us. I think as you know, like mothers, we go through this and it's, it would be interesting to see what response I get once I put the work out there. But right now I'm, I'm just quietly making it. It's been fun. Yes, it has. Thank you. You have something good to say, you know, one with and oh, so nice to talk to you. My lovely. I've just had such a lovely chat. I get so much out of everyone that I speak to I take different things from it's really it's such a wonderful thing, personally, that I love to do. I just love to talk to people and, you know, challenge ideas. And yeah, why? Why did we do this and all this. I just love it. So yeah, thank you for indulging. What you do is wonderful. I think I think what you're doing is so significant. And it's so important. And so I'm so I'm so happy to be here and talk to you. Thank you so much for forgiving me for giving me your time. Oh, nice. Thank you. Thank you. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Carmen Bliss Australian holistic counceller S1 Ep17 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts **Please be aware this episode contains discussion about stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and procedures in the aftermath** My guest today is Carmen Bliss, holistic counsellor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counsellor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt - that we discuss in each episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business, Inspired Wellbeing Co. providing support for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion about self worth, identity, setting boundaries and the ego, where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experience with parenting, loss and finding your true calling in life. Connect with Carmen here - Connect with the podcast here - Music used with permission - Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the art of being among the podcast where we hear from mothers who are creatives and artists sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. Thanks so much for joining me. My guest today is Carmen bliss, holistic counselor and mother from Mount Gambier South Australia. I invited Carmen onto the podcast to share her knowledge and expertise as a holistic counselor, particularly around the areas of identity and mum guilt that we discuss in every episode. Carmen founded and runs her own business inspired wellbeing co providing services for individuals, couples, parents and workplaces. What follows today is an honest and open discussion where Carmen not only shares her expertise, but shares her own experiences with parenting loss and finding your own true calling in life. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around stillbirth, miscarriage, grief, panic attacks, PTSD and anxiety. Carmen opens up very honestly and at times graphically about her stillbirth experience and the procedures in the aftermath. Today, I'm really excited to welcome a very special guest, a guest with a little bit of a difference. Welcome Carmen bliss, who's from inspired wellbeing code, you met Gambia thank you for coming on, Carmen, it's so lovely to have you. Thank you. It's, um, pleasure to be here. So I sort of thought I approached you because I've probably recorded 20 or so of these now, these chats with these artistic moms. And I have some particular topics that I love talking about. And they're the responses, I get a very different but quite similar in a lot of ways, but slightly different. And I thought, so I thought it was about time I spoke to someone who's got some expertise in this area, he could perhaps help shed a little bit of light on what's going on for moms when they're experiencing these things. Maybe some sort of ways we can look at it differently. To help us through before we delve into all of that nitty gritty stuff. Let's chat about you for a little while Carmen. So tell us a little bit about yourself and, and the business that you run and how you got into all that sort of stuff. Well, I probably fell into this profession, it was not a planned profession, my personality type, which you'll learn, I love all that sort of stuff. So as we go along our discussion, you'll pick up on bits and pieces that I'm really passionate about, including understanding personality types and stuff. My personality type is quite I don't want to use the word rigid, but it but it is like it's quite structured. I like structure I you know, like numbers, data, all that sort of stuff, which people who know me probably think, oh, I don't think so. But that that is the the crux of my personality. So I was never going to be a counselor. So even when I was working as a student counselor, I said I'm never training in counseling ever. It's not my thing. I don't like it, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And then here I am, with my own piece was in counseling. Go figure. Um, so yeah, so I sort of got into the business because of a few personal situations that kind of changed my view on the world. Like it was like a not like a wake up moment or I suppose it was a wake up moment, but like a daunting period. And then if that's the right word, but you kind of know what I mean. And what you think okay, life's not as black and white as I've made it out to be for the last 36 years or 35 years or whatever, it was 32 years you know, I was very black and white before before that point. So yeah, here I am doing counseling which I never thought I would be doing. Yeah, so family I've got a lovely husband who we've been together nearly 20 years I think next year, which is seems like a long time. I'm still learning things about him every day. Which is probably a good thing because it keeps me interested. I've got two children. And Harrison he just turned 13 on the weekend. Lucky he's a pretty quiet child. So we haven't really hit that crazy teenage stage yet. I mean, there are, you know, the smelly bedroom and not showering and the greasy pair of the pimples and stuff. But yeah, nothing outrageous, which I'm thankful for. And then I've got my daughter Anna, who's just turned seven in August. And yeah, God help us when she turns 13. Because it's a completely different story. I've been managing her behavior since she was two. So just yeah, she she, her here as a teenager, I'm just pretty apprehensive about that. We'll deal with it when it comes. And then. So my family journey hasn't been like an easy one, obviously. So we had Harrison, he was not planned. So I was only 25 not really thinking about kids, you know? And then Oh, hello, I'm pregnant. But we owned our own house. And you know, we're in a really good position. We have jobs, and you know, everything like that. So yeah, wouldn't change it for the world. Absolutely. So then, when Harry was about three, we started trying for another baby, and had three miscarriages sort of in a row. Didn't really get to the point of testing, like, what, why there was a few things like to think it's progesterone levels, and just little things like that. But then fell pregnant with Anna after that, and she was just like, a normal, healthy kind of pregnancy. So it was, yeah, it was a bit weird. And then we lost a baby through stillbirth when Anna was two, so that that kind of put us you know, you know, the whole family situation number one, like that was unplanned. So you know, you have those freak outs, like, Oh, my God, like, Baby number three, what the hell are we gonna do? You know, I love my job, I don't think I want to take maternity leave, you know, all that sort of stuff. At the time, I was earning more than Brad. So you know, tossing up? Does he be the stay at home dad, and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of go into this whirlwind, and I went into denial. So I think because it rocked our world so much. And because Anna was still only like one and a half to when we fell pregnant. But yeah, with the third baby. And so went into kind of like, I don't think I want this baby. Like, you know, there was all that, like self talk. Like, I don't know how I'm gonna handle three kids, you know, and as Harry was this perfect textbook, baby, you know, that slept through the night and his cot from day one. You know, he was just like this perfect baby. And then Anna came, and it was like, holy shit. Why don't we? why don't why did we choose to go back? No, she's got the biggest heart. But the biggest personality? So. Yeah, so she's totally and I'm trying to manage a two year old and then yeah, we bang. We're pregnant again. So yeah, I felt in those early stages, I felt like I didn't want to be pregnant, I, you know, was in a lot of denial and stuff. And then when we went to our ultrasound and at 20 weeks and found out that we lost the baby, then all the guilt started. Because you know, you think you think was that? Like, did I do this by wishing it away? Did I do this by thinking that I don't want this baby, you know, all that sort of stuff sort of starts to creep in. But luckily, I've got a really, really good support network around me. But it wasn't easy. I don't think anyone tells you about these things. So like I had to give birth. So so it's like no one tells you that. You know, do you get what I mean? Like now you think but you know, people say oh, you know, we've had a stillbirth, whatever, whatever. Yeah. But they don't actually say, Oh, you have to give birth. You know, like the follow up stuff. Yeah, so I was completely shocked by that. Because I was like, oh, like, I don't know whether I can do that. I don't know whether I can, like, you know, go into a labor room and give birth to a baby that's not alive. You know, like that. That was a really big fear. And I think that's the point where I really broke down. Like when the doctor told me that I had to give birth like I was kind of not in shock. But yeah, in I don't know. Yeah, it would be shocked, I suppose. And I hadn't showed any full on emotion yet. Obviously, it's a whirlwind. But when the doctor said, and I was so lucky, I had an amazing doctor. And it was, you know, when people were there, the right people at the right time. She was One of those people because she was literally only my doctor for six months. And it was that period where I got pregnant, and then lost the baby. And she was there through the whole thing. And then she was gone. She just left town. So it's like, so weird. She was she was obviously there for the right time, you know, the right time for me. So she was amazing. And she was really comforting and talked to me through the whole thing. And yeah, and the midwives at the hospital were also really, really amazing. So I feel like I had, like, the support that I that I needed, like, throughout that whole journey, even though it's you know, it's horrible. It's I'm probably speaking about it. Maybe some people think candidly, but I've processed a lot of that stuff. You know, I've worked very hard over the last five years to, to process, all of that. So, you know, and had intense counseling myself, and to sort of work through all of that. And but yeah, the midwives were amazing. And I just remember this, this one, there was two main midwives and there was one whose name was Gloria. Oh, yeah. You know, her. I know, Gloria. Yeah. How amazing is she? Yeah, she, she, I think she's still working up there. Like she's been. But yeah, I think she just recently retired, oh, God, cuz she was there. When we had ally eggs. She's like, like, I've got seven years between my two. So she was there when I had Alex 13 years ago, nearly 14 years ago. And then she was still there. When I had Digby, and we were just like, Oh, my God. And actually, I'm digressing now. But she was the first person I told about my, when I was up there, my postnatal depression was coming back. And so I just trusted her so much. She was just like the most like, she'd just come in. And she'd just sit down and have a chat. And my husband thought she was awesome. Like, she was just here. So like, Gloria was there for the first half of the labor. And she was just like, this guardian angel, I suppose, you know, that had been sent to nurture me in that time. And, you know, she she was telling me about how, you know, how many of the births that are not live for her, you know, in her whole career standard? Yeah. So she, she told me about, you know, all the pregnancies and births and everything that she had come across in her career and what her life was like, and, yeah, that she didn't have any children of her own. I think she was, like, am I right in saying Not, not a nun, but something similar to that, like a sister or something? Yes, she was. She was a sister. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So she she served, you know, in that way, sort of got in that way? I suppose. So yeah. And then there was another lady Fiona, who, who actually was there when I when I birth Lucy. And she was amazing as well, like, she was just so amazing. But no one tells you about all this stuff. And you know, that I think that's the hardest thing that I found is, you know, no one tells you those steps. And I don't know, maybe it's better to be naive. Yeah, I don't know. And I think the hardest part of that, because when you're in labor, like they drug you up. Yeah. Like you can say no, obviously. But yeah, that emotional and you know, you just want to be a bit numb. Which was probably, I don't know, I don't think I would have changed that. Because you just want you don't want any pain, you know, it's not like you're going to be rewarded at the end, you know, you just want to be numbed out for a little bit. But probably the hardest part of that, of that whole process was like walking out with without a baby. So like that, like you're in the maternity ward with with everybody else, and you have to exit that maternity ward with no baby. So that was probably, I felt like I was like the walker shame almost like people were looking, you know, I don't know, it was just a really weird experience. And quite confronting, like, that was pretty, you know, because, you know, you imagine, you know, and because I've had two children, you know, I have experienced this before, you know, that feeling when you're taking your baby home, and you're like, you know, it's just such a big moment of putting the baby in the capsule and getting it in the car. And, you know, all of that. So yeah, it was like the complete opposite of that. So yeah, it was really weird. And Gloria sent me and it's like, blew me away. She sent me a postcard Exactly a year later, on the exact date that I gave birth, saying, like, how she was still thinking about me and that she was in some conferences and midwifery conference and yeah, she was thinking about the date and yeah, like I bawled my eyes out. When I received that in the post because I was like, oh, How does she have time to even remember these dates? And she said like it was on the date. So yeah, I keep that because Oh, yeah, I made you cry now. Oh my Well, sharing that yeah honestly. Bla bla bla so I lean I, it's not that. And I know people talk about grief differently. And I know that it's very different for every individual. You know, I've worked with grief in my counseling work, you know, I understand that people handle grief and loss differently. But I had a period of denial, not denial of what had happened. Denial of my feelings. You know, like, I just shut them all the way. I didn't want to process them. Yeah, so that was for about a year. Then, then it came like that, then all of the emotions came and I had to get counseling and stuff because I ended up with post traumatic stress disorder, because I had quite an invasive operation afterwards. Which looking back now I if I could preach one thing to to young women, or young mums even is make informed decisions about your, about your own body. So I was tucked into a procedure and ablation of the uterus when I didn't actually need it. And it was one of the most invasive procedures that I've had, because it was really like, extremely painful. And now I don't, and I can't have children anymore because of it. And it was quite soon after that stillbirth. So the gynecologist who I won't name shouldn't not like they shouldn't be making people who've just gone through that make those decisions. Yeah. It's not an informed decision. How can you make a decision like that when you're not in the right frame of mind? And the same as Brad, so he was booked in for a vasectomy? Already. Like before, we found out that we were pregnant with Lucy. And so then all of this happened, and it was about three months later. And he was still booked in for this discectomy. And, you know, like, we kind of discussed it and everything but looking back like you don't i don't know you can't you're not in the right frame of mind to December the never gonna have children again. I mean, I didn't find pregnancy easy. So I'm not sure that I would have gotten back for another pregnancy anyway. But it's nice to have the option, isn't it? Yeah, that's thing, isn't it? Yeah. That's that's quite appalling. Isn't it to fronted with that? It's such a when you're so vulnerable, and obviously not having the time to, like you said, to find out what you need to find out and the ramifications of this. Yeah, that's That's appalling. Yeah, so yeah, you're working through that as well. As Yeah, so yeah, yeah. So that's a grief and loss in itself. Because, you know, as a woman, we have periods, and then there was no longer so that's a that's a grief and loss in itself. And yes, it's fantastic. Not bleeding every month. But also, I feel like something's missing. Some months, you know, like, that's a process that we get used to it. It's a womanly thing. Yeah, it's spiritual and all the rest of it. So yeah, I ended up with PTSD, because that operation didn't go as planned. And a few few hiccups went wrong when I was going under, and yeah, so then I was presented with, you know, having these panic attacks, you know, multiple times a day and just felt completely out of control for probably three, three to four, three years, probably three, three solid years. Oh, wow. I didn't Yeah, I didn't want to go on medication or anything, because medication has its place. Absolutely. Like I am not anti medication, but for me and my body and knew that it wouldn't be the right choice. So and only because I'm so sensitive to all of that sort of stuff. Like I know that my body would have probably reacted, you know, unpleasant way rather than helping the situation. So yeah, I just got intensive intensive counseling and yeah, worked through it that way. And I mean, I still have anxiety a little bit and still moments. have panic every now and again. But it's pretty much under control at the moment. Yes, my family laughs and Poor Anna, she was too when all this happens. So I feel like we're having a lot of issues with her at the moment. And I feel like some of it has contributed to my probably lack of emotional availability around that time. All right, well, I'm gonna take you back right back to the start. You refer to yourself as a holistic counselor, can you share what that holistic element means? And how that changes? How you approach your work? Yeah, sure, um, I like the word holistic, because I don't believe counseling is just of the mind to holistic when when you talk about counseling is mind body spirit. So not only are we looking at what's going on in the mind, but the mind doesn't operate separately from the body, and separately from spirit, or energy, and genetics. So holistic integrates everything. So, you know, not only are we looking at what thought patterns and, you know, are detrimental to your mental health? Well, no, I don't even like the I know that the word mental health is, is recognized. And I don't know what else I would call it. But it's not just mental health. It's like Holistic Health, because every little bit contributes to the mental health. So when I practice, I look at the people's lifestyle, like are they sleeping? Because sleep has an a massive detrimental impact on mental health? Are they really low in vitamin D? I mean, I can't test that I'm not a medical doctor. But I will always suggest that they go and have a look at their blood work. Because if they're hugely low on vitamin D, or hugely, you know, they're not taking magnesium or just a really simple stuff, then that affects your mental health. You know, are they having bodily symptoms that they think are normal, but actually contributed to their mental health? Like their nervous systems on regulated? And then the energetics of it, you know, are you in a environment where there's yelling and screaming every day or, you know, that plays a part in your spirit and your energetics, which then plays a part on your mental health? You know, so that's kind of the holistic thing that we look at. It certainly is all it all. Everything affects everything else, doesn't it? It's not. Like I think the Western doctors way of treating the what do they do they treat the symptoms instead of treating the cause? It's like, they just look at one thing in isolation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I think that's probably what spurred me on to, to look at the holistic stuff is, you know, I had like, some really significant sort of adrenal issues, that the Western doctors ah, made me feel horrible. You know, they they made me feel like I was making it up. Yeah, because they didn't have they didn't have an answer for it. So it must have been. Yeah, it must just be all in your head. You know, it takes me back to the description, when psychology was first around of hysteria. You know, like so, you know, women who are young mothers would be diagnosed with hysteria, which means, these days that they're not coping, you know, they might have postnatal depression, or they might have really bad anxiety. But back then, it was just labeled hysteria, and I feel like that has, you know, in the western Doctor world, they don't use the word hysteria, but basically, I was told that I was tired, or bored housewife. And I was working for 40 work. So yeah, that's what made me so passionate about holistic. Hmm. You'd never say that someone in a medical setting these days? No, and I think because psychology was so new. You know, like, it's such an emerging field and the I'm sorry if I bore you with the details of the history and stuff. Like that sort of stuff. but back then they didn't believe that the brain like they didn't know about neuroplasticity. So if someone was in that state, you know, quote unquote hysteria, or you know, soccer or whatever, they didn't understand that that could be changed. They just labeled that person and put them incident in, in an institution. And they never got the chance to actually heal. Yeah, so all these people who were labeled, you know, hysterical or psycho or, you know, needed to be institutionalized. And they didn't believe that the brain could change. So that's where the research is now that the brain can change. And we can mold, mold, neural pathways to be in a better shape than what they were, you know, when we were suffering from mental health or experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever. Yes, you've definitely come a very long way, very, very long. So the there's two, two topics that I love to talk about. And so they are the mum guilt, which I like to put in inverted commas because and the second one is identity. So the way that when a woman becomes a mother, how they see themselves changes. So well, let's let's do the mum guilt first. So, do you have any idea? I'm really intrigued by this? And I'll ask you this question. And you might not know and that's fine. But where did this term come from? Like, how was it created? Is it been like a social media hashtag like? Or is it like people who have to label things we have to call something we have to have a term for everything? What What's your take on that? I think it's, and I don't know, I only know I'm not an expert, or I don't know, like, this is only my opinion. One person. I feel like it's a product of social media, the media. Because when, like when I had my son, I was 25. Like social media had only just started because don't forget, I'm old. I'm, and I wasn't on social media. I didn't look at websites. I just parented from my heart, with my mom's advice, kind of like the traditional way that people would parent without all of this outside influence. And the only time I experienced mum guilt was when I put my son in childcare. And he didn't, he didn't gel with the carer for the first probably three months. But I don't, I can, I felt guilty I did, I felt guilty for dropping him off there. Because he wasn't settled. You know. I didn't feel guilty about going to work because I knew in my mind that without all this external pressure, and whatever else to be a perfect mum, because that wasn't around then you just did the best record that I needed to go back to work for my own sanity. And I did not feel guilty about that. So that was it when Harry was 10 months old. I'm not a maternal person. I'll be the first to say, I'm not a I'm not a person who's in an apron baking a cake, breastfeeding their child at the oven. Like I'm not that person. I work I thrive off work. I thrive off intellectual stimulation. Just being a mum is not enough for me. So never once did I feel guilty to for going to work and making that decision back then. And I did feel guilty for for because my child was quite upset in those first three months. But you know what, once we found the right fit, once we found the right person to care for him in that childcare setting. He absolutely loved it and he thrived. So I didn't have that. That my mum guilt. So I feel like mum guilt is a product of everybody else's judgment of what society should or shouldn't do or be. And then we take that on that we take that those feelings on from externally internally And then they manifest. And I don't think that's right. Oh, yeah, I don't think it's as a man, like, you're going to be very different to me, you know, do you get what I mean? Like, we can't see a social media stereotype of a mum and say, we all have to fit in that round peg, when we're triangles square diamond. That makes sense. And I can sort of sense perhaps the connection, then you talked at the beginning briefly about the personality types. So it's like, everyone will experience things different because of the way just the way they are. Don't get me started about the patriarchal stuff that goes, get started on it. Because I would call myself like a feminist because I hate patriarchal systems, I, it actually makes me feel physically sick to my core. And I don't know whether that's, you know, from my past life, so, you know, whatever happened there, or because I've always had great men figures in my life, my husband is like, absolutely amazing. Like, honestly, like, we share hubs in everything, like, he comes in, and he does the dishes, or I'll go outside and weed the garden or, like he is, yeah, really, really amazing. I'm so blessed to have someone like that. So it's not because I haven't had these, you know, beautiful men, male figures in my life. It's just the systems. And what a mum, the word Mum, I suppose the peaks is, you stay at home, you look after the kids. And that's it. You do all the stuff around the house, you do all the washing. And I feel like that. That's society's mo of what a mother should do look like, etc. We shouldn't be going to the gym because mums shouldn't be doing that we shouldn't be spending money on ourselves because, you know, earning any money. You know, like, all of that is bullshit. Like, I really despise that patriarchal kind of thing. And that is sometimes where I think this mom guilt comes from, like it's generational trauma of having this patriarchal system. That is outdated. And really sexist. Hmm. Yep. So that's the other part of it. Yeah. So it's almost like, because women men the way that they mother is changing. They've got to be reined back in. So they've got to be made to feel guilty to pull them back to this the traditional way that they're supposed to supposed to be mothering. I've used a lot of lately. Yeah, absolutely. And why aren't we, you know, why aren't big organizations, including family daycare as part of their well being program at work? So mothers can return to work when they want to? You know, why do we have waiting lists of hundreds of children at childcare? Like, why aren't we doing something about that? You know, so women can actually get back into the workforce, and do what they love? Or, you know, you get what I mean? It's a big problem. Oh, yeah. So I guess then people experience it differently then, because of how they were parented, what their role model then was from their mother, maybe they feel guilt because they're doing something different to their mother, or what do you think about the way that perhaps the other women and other mothers? What's their role in driving this as well? Because I feel like, I know, we're getting better at it. But I feel like there's a lot of judgment, from mums to other mums and women that don't have children, they're judging mothers. We've got a lot of work to do there, too. I feel Do you agree with that? Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And it really stems back to the basic values and beliefs. And yes, role models come into the values and beliefs of people. So we grow up with a certain set of values. So our core values pretty much don't change throughout our lives. They might change slightly. And, and if you have ever come and done any of my counseling, you know, come and done counseling with me. You know, there's a few key things that I bang on about which probably people get sick of hearing. And one of them is values and beliefs. Because values are our core values. So it might be you know, a set of values that don't change that inherently ingrained in us from from our parents or whatever. And then we have beliefs on top of that. So values are things like, like family, so like, you know, I value family a lot, because you know, I'm very close to my family, I get a lot of support from my family, I love my family dearly. So that is one of my core values is having family around me and having them support me. And, you know, if I go a month without seeing my mother, I'd probably, you know, gets a bit tense, you know, we have a really good relationship. So that's a that's like a core value. And then we have these beliefs on top of that. So beliefs are a little bit more they are what can be changed and influence. And as we grow and evolve, they change and open and all the rest of it. So I feel like everyone has that. But what we need to work on and you talk about moms being judgmental towards other moms, etc. is actually a lack of awareness for our, and I'm going to speak in riddles, probably. Yeah. So pull me up if you don't understand anything, because probably I need to explain it a bit more. But the opinions and judgments of other people towards other people, whether that be mums to mums etc, or non working or non mothers to mothers is a lack of self awareness and reflection. about unconscious bias. Yeah, explain that a little bit. Yeah. So I'll try and put it in simple terms. Okay. So if we think about a drug addict, right? Some people might think that it's their fault, that they can stop anytime that they want, that they have control over what they're doing. And they want to penalize that person. I think that, for me, is a underdeveloped opinion of a drug drug addict, because that has unconscious bias behind it. They don't know what that person has gone through in the in the startup their life, to the trauma that they've experienced, and the depth of the pain and emotional pain that they're trying to numb or, or whatever it might be. They don't need prison, they need healing. So that would be being aware of the unconscious bias, because once upon a time, I would have been the person that said, drug addicts need to go to prison, because they're just ruining life for everybody else, you know, like criminal criminal behavior, etc. But because my beliefs have evolved, I can now see a hole a picture. So instead of looking through a pinhole, we're now looking through a 20 centimeter diameter window. So it kind of makes sense. Yeah. So it's like you, maybe because of the way you grew up, or the way you your parents views where you've got that in. And so you have that until that time where you have whatever happens in your life, for whatever reason, or you start to educate yourself, whatever, you can change your opinion. So that unconscious bias is what you just have in New necessarily without realizing that's just how you see things, I guess. Is that Yeah, yeah, it's funny. Yeah. And there's a there's a saying, and I've got to get it right. You don't know what you don't know. Until you know more. Yeah, so that information, like informed like those informed beliefs. And not everyone wants to have informed beliefs or decisions. It's hard. It's actually very challenging. And it's sometimes it's just easier not to. Yeah. Because you're not going to change somebody else to change their beliefs. Unless they're coming to you because they want to change, which is in my holistic counseling situation. They're coming because they want to be there. Yeah, they pay to be there they want they're paying me to help them to change their beliefs. But if you have someone that doesn't want to change, then there's no way that anyone else is going to check. You can argue with them until the mangoes blue, they're not going to change their beliefs because you told them to. Yeah, when you're talking about this, I'm just reminded of actually my father in law. We caught up with him on the weekend and he's in his early 80s. And we had this discussion about because I said about how childcare is really busy and we're, we're really full up at the moment. He says I do do you accept children from mums who don't work? I said, Yeah, we do. said Ah, I don't I agree with that. You said mums should be home with the children. And I went into this great big rampage about what so what's great about childcare, what's for the children and for the moms and I said, all this stuff, and you just don't know, whatever. I thought you haven't heard a single. I've said, like, literally, you have this as if you've got your beliefs, and you're not changing your beliefs. It doesn't matter how long I went on about my great, big, impassioned views of what I think so great about Chuck. That's great. Yeah, it's a prime example. And the only way that we can help people view the world differently, or view the situation differently as be a good role model. not preach, we don't, I don't preach to people, I don't, you know, lay it on the line of what they have to change. I'd be a good role model. You know, I talk about the science behind it, and you know, why things are better, you know, try and give them information, which doesn't, I don't, with no expectation information with no expectation. You couldn't have given your father in law, all of that information, and then expect it to change for him to change his belief. Because that expectation leads to disappointment on your behalf, which leads to anger on on your behalf. So we have to give people information without expectation. And I think a lot of the time people expect people to change because of their own. You know, if they've shared information, they expect that person to change straightaway. Which is just ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. Cuz then they get disappointed and and then it affects relationships, then it doesn't it? It's like, yeah, absolutely. Yes, so identity, let's talk about that. The reality that when you have a child when you become a mother, that the way that you see yourself changes, and I guess that can also be influenced by society as well, about how you're supposed to see yourself. It really is the words I've heard mothers talk, like, they've experienced, like an identity crisis, basically, who am I, what am I, I only exist for this child. So what does that mean for you know, who I was before? It's in a grieving process to I suppose of the life that's, that's lost? Yeah. Share what you are how you feel about that. I definitely went through that. But probably, and a little bit when when I became a mother, like a little bit, but probably more so when I was forced to make a decision about whether to leave a job or not. And that was a important high up job. And I had this identity crisis around that. But as a mother, I think, this identity crisis, because literally, like, at the start of this year, I had an elderly couple come in, and they said we want to do couples counseling. And I said, okay, like, yeah, like, Absolutely, everyone's welcome. And I think they would have been in their late 70s. Um, he was quite active in the community. So, you know, he did lots of stuff around the, around their local community, and it's quite involved, and she just sat at home. And it just blew my mind that she had no purpose in her life. Other than being at home and doing the stuff at home. So she still hadn't found her identity from when she had kids like 50 years ago, for the last 50 years, she had not had her identity. And whether she even had that identity before she had kids, because don't forget, that was in a different era, like women, you know, to be seen and not heard, you know, married quite young, and that was their purpose, to marry to have children and to look after the house like that was their purpose. Yeah. And she spoke about being really sad and, you know, not looking forward to the future and really resentful that he was out doing things in his community. so I gently sort of spoke to her about finding her identity again. What are the things she loves to do? You know, does she love to go and have coffee with friends? Does she love to go hiking? Does she love to go dancing? And including some of those things in her life again. And she was really she really had a lot of trouble understanding that she can and has permission to to find all those things again. Yeah, that's literally give her permission to find all those things again, because she she thought that that was not okay. Yeah, when you were saying that I was the word permission was going through my mind too. It's like she was actually saying, Is it okay if I actually do this? Like? That's yeah. That's quite fun, isn't it? That's someone's Yeah. Wow. So, the back the mums that I work with, quite often who, you know, either their child's just gone to school, or they're a little bit older, and they're in childcare or the mums going back to work or whatever, is always around identity. And it's also around the self worth. So thinking of yourself as worthy. And I always say to them, Why aren't you worthy? Give me you know, give me a good reason why you aren't worthy to have two hours to yourself on a Thursday night to do whatever you want. Like, why are you not worthy of that? You know, so it's really, that identity thing is, again, I feel like it's patriarchal in society, you know, born from society. And then when social media comes along, it's like, it's amplified, like, 200% with this massive magnifying glass. I, I actually, I know, social media has its place. But it's destructive and damaging. And I can you know, in my other job, I am in high school counseling, high school students. And I just cannot even fathom why they enter into this bullshit on their phones, like I just. And these kids are, like, literally stuck to their phone and have probably the worst self esteem issues that I have ever come across. And it just blows me away. And it saddens me, It saddens me to the core, that these young girls, you know, starting at, say 1312, or 13, probably even know probably 11, they're starting at 11. Like caring so much about what other people think of them. Like, that's what they base their whole life on. And then, of course, then we have the identity stuff that comes later with with moms. And I know that, you know, it might be two different topics, but I think they're into the interplay because of the self worth stuff. Absolutely. I think it's almost scary to think how these young girls now and how they're going to cope with that motherhood. Because of the they've been in this world. I think it's interesting, like people like you and I, and probably a lot of people listening to this did live in a world before social media. So we can look at that and go, like my son, and something will happen. And I'll boost like, ah, that's no big deal. You know, because I'm not I have the hindsight and whatever I've lived that I've lived in a lot longer than him. And I can say that, obviously, that's not very helpful to him. But we know there's a world outside of social media, but for them, their whole world is that tiny, whatever exists on that phone. And it's really quite scary that absolutely, and I agree. And it leads to this identity and, and even identity, and I know, this is the probably not the identity that you're speaking about. But, um, gender identity. You know, a lot of the young people at the moment, you know, that plays into the identity because they have got so much information at their fingertips. It's like, this is like before the internet before social media, etc. You had to go and you had to look up scientific papers and encyclopedias, you know, remember those big Oh, yeah, like 100 of them? Yep. You know, it was it was qualified information. So you had to go and do research. Whereas now you can just type in Google. And it's not quantified information. It's not research backed. It's not evidence based. It's not. So I feel like the kids get overwhelmed. Like instead of just sitting with themselves sitting still within themselves or exploring the outside Oddworld all that information is just like an information superhighway. And it's just bombarding and it's confusing is honestly confusing for them. And I feel like that's the same with moms as well, you know, especially with raising babies, etc. Is that information overload. But I think the identity of mums, I hope that it's changing. And I think it is slowly but it's like, really, really slowly. It's like the snail. Yeah, yeah. And I, I hope that we can instill enough self worth in these mums to say that raising a baby is a two person job, you know, if you have got a partner, you know, that that other partner needs to step up. Or if you're a single mom, that doesn't have that partner, having that support network that they can call on, you know, to be able to take the baby for, you know, a day or a couple of hours or whatever. So the mom can actually fight, like, find herself and do things for herself. And I get it, like, when you're immersed in that newborn stage, you know, like, it's full on like that you live in breathing. Like it's, it's pretty suffocating. Like, you know, you're sleep deprived, your brains not functioning properly, you feel like, you know, you're either, you know, depending on how you feed, you either got the baby stuck to your boob or heating up bottles or sterilizing bottles. The hours on end. Yep. Okay, you do you fall into this world of just Baby, baby, baby. But I think at some point, when the baby gets out of that, being dependent on mum stage all the time, then we have to start exploring ourselves again, as Mum, you know, as as Carmen or Alison. Yeah, as a mum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And being confident enough to, like you said, ask for help. Using fit like, yeah, it really comes down to it really comes down to but the heart of this, from my perspective, anyway, the building up that self worth, so to feel like, you can ask for help, like, you're worthy enough to have that conversation with your partner and say, Can you please do this? Or I need your help, what can you help with for, you know, reaching out to people and then feeling confident enough in the way that you are parenting in the way that you are? living your own life that you don't feel so influenced by what you see around you, whether it is social media, or what were the what your best friend's doing? Or that kind of thing? Would that be? fair comment? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. Um, and I feel like teaching our young girls self worth, you know, that's where it really starts doesn't, you know, teaching our young boys how to, you know, be sensitive and all the rest of it, you know, in tune with their emotions and all the all of that sort of stuff, and then with our young girls teaching themselves where. Like, I'm a huge believer of boundaries. I feel like women who don't necessarily have an identity or feel lost in their identity, don't have boundaries, because they feel like they need to please everybody else. And so that's, you know, another thing that I do harp on about is having these boundaries, you know, saying no to things, you know, not being afraid to upset people, because at the end of the day, you have to honor who you are and what resonates with you. And it is kind of like the whole the holistic picture, you know, you've I'm very introverted. So, you know, if I was to if you were to invite me to a big party, Allison, like, if I didn't have an identity, I might say yes, because I feel like I need to appease you by coming. But me as Carmen says, that environment and would really, really drain me. So it's not even about feeling uncomfortable because at this point in my life, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. I have a cold shower everyday like, I'm okay with feeling uncomfortable. So it's not about feeling uncomfortable in that environment. Although I would sit, you know, I would feel uncomfortable, but it's about okay, if I go to that party. So say if I go at eight, and I don't leave till 12am, Around 50 people that I don't know, I have to exchange small talk with 50 people that I don't know. That to me would take two days to recover from energetically. Yeah, be that be that draining and that, yeah. But you know, like, maybe 10 years ago, I would have gone to that party. And then and then wondered why I felt like shit for two days afterwards. But you know, like an extrovert. So my mom's really extroverted. So that would be her ideal situation to go to a party with 50 people that she didn't know. And I think that's part of our, you know, part of this identity stuff as well is learning. What gives us energy, what drains our energy, you know, what do we love? What don't we like, you know, exploring all of that stuff. Because that becomes the foundations of your identity, and being more authentic to yourself. Hmm. And actually like recognizing, because I'm, I, I'm sort of guessing, but there might be people listening today that might not have made that connection between that city save being in a situation that wasn't that great for you. And then you didn't realize why you felt pretty ordinary, you know, in the next day or the day after. So making those connections and realizing that there is more, maybe there's more to it than what we think there is if that's the way Yeah, absolutely. And also, it's about because if you have no boundaries, so say, say if I said yes to your party, then you you might feel great about that. But if I was to if I was to have the confidence to say no to your party, that takes a certain level of self worth, from me to say no, because I might think Alison won't like me anymore, because I didn't come to our party. Together. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But I think the more you know, yourself, the more you're self aware about what what works for you, which is part of the holistic counseling process is, is rediscovering what, what works for you. And makes you and maybe for the first time actually looking at that, like, like, we talked about the lady before in your 70s that maybe wasn't even had that self awareness to actually go there. Their whole life maybe? Absolutely. And I feel like the identity comes from the seasons in our life as well. People get lost in the seasons in their life. So we give ourselves labels. So you know, mum is a label. You know, that's a season in our life where we're raising children. But then, you know, maybe after I have the stillbirth, I get, you know, rabbit holed into looking at support groups for stillbirth and everything and then I become Carmen who had a stillbirth. Does that make sense? Oh, Carmen, who works at dot, dot, dot dot, like this, this identity thing comes with these seasons in our lives. But it takes a lot to shed that ego because it is ego. Like when we identify with these things that we attached to. It takes a lot of, you know, courage and bravery to get rid of all those layers. And just be Common. Common. That's it. No labels attached. It's just me. This is who I am. You know, without all of that. Kind of makes sense. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and courageous enough to actually look at yourself. Like take away all those things that you think you are, or that you're seen to be? And just look at, actually, who is this person without? Yeah, without all that stuff? Why? Why do we have this obsession with labels? Like even when I start to speak to you, I asked you what, what do you call yourself? Like, you know, why do we have this thing that we've got to know? It's an E, it's definitely an ego thing. And it's not even like a conscious ego thing. You know, it's like when you say, when you when you meet someone for the first time, you know, say you're at a networking, lunch or whatever. And, you know, you say to people, well, Hi, I'm Carmen, and they say, Hi, I'm Allison. And then I say, what do you do? What does it matter what you do? Yeah. It's I'm here to meet Alison, you know, not Allison, who is the podcast person What do you call yourself? Podcast fears? It's not common the holistic counselor, yes, it's common. Yeah. Because there's so much. There's so much. I don't I don't know if this is the right way. So but there's so much more to pick a person and then just how they, how someone perceives them. So like, he could say, I'm Alison, that, that I, I am a mom of two and they'd go Alright, so that's what you are. You don't do anything else you have nothing else that you do. That's what you are, you know? Maybe pigeonhole. You don't mean, hmm. That's very interesting, isn't it? It is, it's very interesting. It's, and it takes guts to and vulnerability to stand there and say, I'm calm and full stop. Yeah, you're leaving yourself wide open for people to make their own opinions. Which kind of weapon enough to not care about that. Which is when you have when you have that self worth, then you can stand there and say, Hi, I'm Allison booster. And let you know and the way on the other side of things, if you know, if you are meeting someone new or whatever, and you don't want to subscribe to, you know, the labels or whatever. You can use curiosity. So, you know, Hi, I'm Carmen. I like to read, Allison. You know, you say Hi, I'm Allison. And I say, oh, Allison, what are some of your favorite things? Be curious about your person? Yeah. Tell me tell me about what you enjoy doing? Or, you know, yeah, it's not reaching for this, this label to describe someone. And it's almost like you feel when someone tells you the label, you feel like you found out all about them. It's like you've you've created that image, in your mind are what they are. And it's like, well, that's I don't need to know any more about you, you know, but then when you have that conversation, you actually, like you said, Be curious. Yeah, it's a completely different way of looking at it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if anyone will take that tip and try that at the next networking function are the x winning from a meeting some people are really. In spite of all Benko is on Instagram, we are on Facebook. And the sad thing about LinkedIn people told me that I need to know more about LinkedIn, but I'm there somewhere. I do check it occasionally. But yeah, you can just reach out and if you have any questions, you can email me and pretty responsive on on email and pretty try to be pretty responsive, responsive on social media as much as I can, at the moment. And have got one day a week where I'm canceling. Like for the full day. Again, I have to be careful with my energetic so I you know, I'm not I don't want to be a business. That's five days a week. I couldn't handle that. Unless I employ someone else. So yeah, and at the moment, I'm like, completely booked apart from one appointment for October, and which I'm truly truly grateful for. But it doesn't make it easy to get in. But what I say to people is please just always message me because if I get enough people I will open another day. It's just Yeah, balancing that. Yeah, get in touch. Like if you're if you're thinking about counseling or have any questions or just want to ask me a question, like I always am open for those questions. Yeah, that's lovely. And yeah, I think if anyone that's listening today if it's sort of sparked something in them that they think oh, I'd like to know more about that. Yeah, definitely reach out to Carmen I'll put all the links in the description so you'll be able to find it that's yeah, it's that's it you're so you're very very authentic person because you're like you said your your energy it's you have to be aware of yourself so you could go you know, like I think there's this idea in business that business has to be this great aggressive well that you know, the be all and end all everyone has to be busy, busy, busy, busy, busy at the at the expense of everything else in their life. That you're you're saying and you're you are showing that that is not how it works. And you can actually that's, again, you're setting your boundaries, you're respecting yourself your own self worth. So you're living the talk, you're literally living what you what you don't say you're practicing what you preach. You know what I mean? Like you are modeling. This is this is how I want to live my life. This is how I want to run my business. This is what's important to me. So I think that's, that's fantastic. It's, you're very, I'm not perfect. Oh, no one's perfect. Put that out there. Like, you know, I'm authentic 85% of the time, the other 15% I question myself and go, should I be, you know, aggressively marketing to you what I mean, like you always have that, those self reflection points. So, you know, we're not I'm not, you know, always. You've always got to have self reflection and awareness, I think is my point. Yeah, navel gazing. Yeah, exactly. Being still in the moment and absolutely about me waiting. Yeah. It's been a really, really enlightening episode, and I really appreciate you sharing and sharing so honestly, your own storytelling and I'm really grateful for your time calm and thank you. No, thank you, Allison. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be on here. So yeah, thank you. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email at Alison Newman dotnet. Edge to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben habit. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Leah Franklin Australian plant based chef + entrepreneur S2 Ep68 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** Find Leah on facebook / instagram Podcast website / instagram If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on.It is such a joy to welcome Leah Franklin to the show this week. Leah is a plant based chef and entrepreneur from Mount Gambier Australia, a mum to 3 girls, and grandmother of 5. From an early age, Leah had dreams of becoming a mother. She recalls the time in year 10 when students shared what they would like to be when they left school, and Leah said 'a mum'. When she met her husband and got around to living that dream, it was everything Leah had hoped and more. Leah was enjoying life as a full time stay at home mum. After almost 22 years, Leah's marriage started to break down. She was struggling with an eating disorder which she fought hard to overcome. It was during this time that Leah also found a plant based lifestyle - vegetarian at first for her health, however she soon educated herself into the treatment of animals and found that an ethically plant based life was what she felt compelled to live. Once her marriage did finally end, it was at this time that she faced some of the most challenging times of her life, transitioning from a married woman with security, to a single mother of 3 girls with no job or financial safeguard. Thinking of the things she was good at, Leah dug deep, literally, and turned her love of gardening into a business, Serenity Home and Garden Care. She bought a $1000 ute advertised on the side of the road and returned home to her girls to announce her new venture. The next 5 years saw Leah not only pour her love into the gardens of Mount Gambier, challenge the gender stereotype of the gardening industry at the time but she developed some incredible bonds with her often elderly female clients. When her body told her it was time to give up the lugging of chainsaws and hours of gardening, Leah turned to her other love, cooking. It was through mixed experiences of being a vegan in Mount Gambier, thought she could improve the food choices for people who lead this kind lifestyle. Thus, Just Frank was born. years on, her business, and her health are thriving, AND she has almost paid off her home loan as a small business owner. Later in life, Leah has dealt with the identity shift of becoming an 'empty nester' and the different emotions brought on by becoming a grandmother. Leah shares openly and honestly today, and I am sure you will, as I have, appreciate it greatly. Mount Gambier residents may know Leah as the face behind Just Frank plant based treats and meals, but today you will find out there is so much more to this inspirational, kind and determined woman. ***Please be aware this conversation contains discussions around an eating disorder, mental health issues, birth trauma + grief.*** If you would like to chat about any aspect of a plant based or vegetarian lifestyle (in a non judgemental environment), Leah would love to hear from you! If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Thank you so much for welcoming me into your home layout. It is such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me on the show. Yeah. And I got to point out that you've got some delightful traits here for us, and you are an amazing vegan cook wouldn't be me. If I didn't have that. You tell us what you've put up? Well, I've got some Biscoff KitKat. And I've also got some Biscoff rocky road for you today. So that's having a big moment. It's massive. Yeah, and I don't only make maybe three things with it. But it's so well received, and everyone loves Biscoff if you haven't tried it, I'm gonna have something you need to try it. So yeah. Oh, man. But do you find people that eat this that aren't vegan or vegetarian? They can't believe that it's actually being? Yeah. And but believe it or not, at that about 80? We've done a bit of market research, Tony from metros sort of, you know, filled me in here and there. Yeah, that approximately 80% of my customers aren't vegan. So it's like, it's across the board. And, and literally, if you don't tell anyone, it's vegan, they wouldn't have a clue. So I promote that it's vegan slash plant based. But it appeals to everybody. So which is fantastic. Yeah. That was just like lifting the remnants in my back. There's a bit there to eat. So how did you first become interested in veganism? What was the say, when I was 30. And I'd had my third daughter, I was unwell. And when I say unwell I was it was nonspecific, like, I was just felt like rubbish, probably ate a bit of rubbish. I had all sorts of tests and nothing came back with any particular disease or chronic condition. had chronic back pain, body aches, all the things went into hospital had a had a bit of an exploratory on my lady bits. And I remember coming out of the anesthetic, and the doctor said, Well, you're good for another 10 Kids, there's nothing going on in there. And I said, Okay, so what's happening? And he said, Well, we call this nonspecific pelvic pain, so we can just start off for you. Because it's because it's cyclic, we can, we can just give you a hysterectomy, and we'll take everything out, and you'll be all good to go. Which, which back in the day back then, which was 1995 was probably happened a lot. They just don't we just take everything out. And that'd be good. Well, we know now that comes with a whole host of other problems. So I said, just give me a minute, you know, so I think I might just take I'll just take 12 months, and let's just see how I go. And I'll try a few conservative things myself. And he said, Okay, but you know, you know, this referrals for 12 months, so you know, I said, okay, so went away, I started off just taking all the junk food, a lot of chips, drink a lot of coke, you know, just the standard things that people have to call that out first. Then I took red meat out. And that made a huge difference year information. And back then, I mean, I keep I'll keep saying through this back in the day, and I know it's not that long ago, that we're talking 2526 years ago and a lot has happened since then a lot to come to the fore about gut health and you know, inflammation in your body. Yeah. And I didn't know it was inflammation then but once I took red meat out of my diet and dairy I'd always had a bit of a an issue with dairy I'd as a kid I if I ate ice cream always got a belly ache or I remember throwing up at several like school Fairs and things like that because I drink this massive milkshake. Great, yeah, come out. Of course, lactose intolerance wasn't a thing back then you didn't know anything about it. So I took those red meat and dairy out. And I just felt amazing. Within probably two, three months, I just all my pain went away my back pain was so bad. But if I got on the floor of changing nappy, I couldn't stand up, I have my then husband would have to get his arm and help me off the floor. So that that was that. And so I left in chicken and fish. And I, I kept going with that for a while. And then something funny happens when you start to then do a bit of research around. You know, what, why is that making me feel awful, that I started to then come across things more of an ethical nature around factory farming and things like that. And I was literally mortified. So I was vegetarian for quite a while. And then took out the eggs and all the things and, and of course, back then, it was like I joined a cult. My family didn't understand my my birth family didn't understand my dad, your dad listened to this, I'm not knocking him. He just he knows he used to make all the jokes about you know, or that hasn't got a face and that hasn't got a face if I was eating anything. And he always made fun of me. And I said him to stop that stop, you know, I get really offended and but I learned to just let that wash over me in the end. And thankfully now I don't have to explain myself anymore. Because, you know, look, now, the world's evolved to catch up with you caught up with me. I'm not a freak show anymore. I can actually just ask for a vegan option. And no one laughs or no one questions what I'm talking about. I know what you're talking about now. Yeah. And, and I'm sure people that aren't vegan now. If they're, you know, younger, they probably can't imagine a world where people had no concept of what I was talking about. If I if I went somewhere and asked, can you serve that without this and that? And it was like, what? Yeah, like I finally been, like not eating meat. Probably. I'm gonna say maybe 12 years. And even in that time, you'd ask people in restaurants or what's in this stock when what's in, you know, often their body and bones and stuff. And the people be like, What do you mean? And whenever we went to Melbourne, or Adelaide, no worries at all. It's like the country's charm. Yeah. Yeah. But now it's just so my it's, it's, it's crazy of I've watched it and it's like, just warmed my heart. Because it's how my business started too. It's my business started. Basically, when I met Rob, and Rob's as far from vegan as you could possibly be, say, I live in a house with him, him there and me here. And you know, we're just completely opposite ends of the spectrum. But we make it work. And that's how my business started. Because I was tired of going to a cafe, and he could get something and I couldn't get anything, we couldn't go together. And both have something. So I just thought, I think there's something, something there. So that's how it started. And like you said before, 80% of your customers, certainly Metro vegan anyway, so it's just things are amazing. Regardless, it is beautiful. And for someone who says, I'm not sure if I'd like it, I've don't eat vegan foods. If you've never eaten a banana, you've never eaten so Tanner's. I'd like to just name off our 1000 foods that are vegan, they're accidentally vegan, if you just want to put them in that category. I mean, and vegans just it's in inverted commas. It tends to make some people shy away from trying something. So yeah, sometimes you need to change the language, which the diehard vegans don't like. But I, my philosophy is if we can get 80% of people eating less meat in a week, it's going to make more of an impact than 20% of the population only being vegan and the rest not doing anything. So if you add that all together, I think it is going to make more of a difference. So I'm all for incremental changes, if that's what you need to do, but definitely more plant based meals is the way to go. And being accepting of people like I feel like the hardcore, it's like it's my way or the highway, sort of off putting. Yeah, that's that's sort of sad. It's like it's alienating to Pete yet. I want to educate, not alienate, I want to I want people to be able to say to me say anyway, because people know why they should. They don't know how they should. Yeah, that's what I think I think people need to be shown how to do it or, or have some tips on because I take it for granted that everyone knows how to cook something without meat, eggs or dairy. But it's not if that's what You've been brought up with and that's what you've done your whole life. Yeah, that's it's hard to know. Yeah. I remember when I started work as a first job I had outside of my family when I was not eating meat at me, and the girls will operate, what do you eat? Like everything else except for me. Like, it was just people couldn't get their head around that there is other things in the world, everything that doesn't come from animals. Like it's just. Yeah. And that was only 10 years ago. Yeah. It's just Yeah. It's a funny thing, isn't it? Is it is, but it's, it's coming along? Yes, the fastest growing social justice movement in the world. So. And I think too, because of this whole focus on the climate to show the meat industry contributes so much to that, you know, the US so much water, they the emissions from the cows. And actually, someone told me the other day, that the biggest consumer of fish in the world is the meat industry, because they catch the fish to feed to the cows. And I don't think many people would know that. So this is the first time you're hearing that, and I hope you feel shocked. You're shocked desire was, look, it's important. We could You could sit here all day and talk about the statistics on some things, you know, it's terrifying, really. But there's no excuse for not knowing any more. We've got the internet, Google it. It's not, don't don't shoot the messenger. You've got your fine if you really want to know. It's all there. And once you know some of the stuff from listening, and not if you've watched any of the documentaries, you can't unsee it either. So yeah. So yeah, off my soapbox now. It's a great, it's a great topic. And I like those conversations peacefully with people. I don't. I'm not here to have an argument. And I and I've been targeted many a time at a at a dinner where someone knows I'm the I'm the vegan at the table. And you know, it doesn't happen very often. But it has happened to me before where I've sort of been baited, if you like, and goaded into a. And I just put my hand I'm sorry, I'm not I don't, I won't debate it. This is where I'm at with it. And you can do your own research. But I'm certainly not going to have a stand up argument with anybody. Yeah. And I think sometimes that says more about the person that's doing that, but they hear that they're feeling insecure about their choices, and, and it's coming out in that way. But yeah, I people used to say to me, people still do say to me, if we're out for tea, and they're eating meat, and they're like, oh, sorry, we're eating this in front of you. I'm like, You do what you do. Like I've never judge anyone names. So you know, if you want to eat it, you eat it, that's fine. That's up to you. I'll do my thing. You do your thing. And, you know, for feeding to get such a bad rap, you know, make somebody like a joke on social media or, you know, best way to start an argument and barbecue invited vegan, you know, like all this sort of rubbish. It annoys me people that don't choose not to eat animals, I think the most kind and caring people you'll ever find. Definitely, definitely. And there's always those figures and I'm doing the right Yeah, but there's always those Christians too. There's always those everything is yeah, it's it's the person not the cause. Yes, that is so true, right? That person. If they weren't vegan, they would be something else. They'd be an extreme something else. Yeah. So it's unfair to label all vegans as extreme because we're not. We just want a better world. I guess. I started it for my health. And that's why I went forward with it. At first, but once I knew, I knew so I was talking to someone the other day actually, he started for the health too, and then discovered more and more and same thing that ethical side comes in. It's very interesting. It is an interesting topic, but yeah, yeah. So tell me more about your business. What sort of products are you making in your business and and what's your sort of most popular? Well, the snickers Cup, the snickers cup? I do digital invoicing so I can tell in my program, what's the biggest seller and which outlet sells the most and whatnot and snickers four to one of everything else. Close second are the Biscoff rocky roads coming along? Quite quickly behind it, but the granola bars are probably set canned, and I've, I've packaged those now, I'm not a fan of the plastic, but due to the health regulations, I have to have them in packaging at in the shoes of things, fridges and things like that. And at this point, there's no other option that's come up, you're working on lots of different options that are a bit more, you know, compostable, compostable. So that will be good. But I've got the packaged granola bars for different outlets now. And they're proving to be really popular because people can pick them up and throw them in the bag, and you know, take them to the gym or whatever. So that's really good. But my range of granola is amazing. It's, I mean, it's like mine. But the sales speak for themselves and the feedback that I get with my package granola, and the original Dayton Arman has been around for seven years now, that was my original one that I took to the markets when I started to do the markets. And I haven't changed the recipe at all, it's stayed the same. And I'm passionate about the same recipe, rub off and jokes with me, and any says, oh, you know, you know, go and get that recipe and, you know, you probably should write that recipe down or, and I'll say something about an ingredient who was so go and check your recipe. So it's not actually written down. He says, how does that work? I say because I know, I just know, I know the recipe. I've, I've scaled that one from, you know, six little bags that I used to take to the market to you know, I make 20 2300 gram bags in one batch of each flavor. So you know, the bowl has gone from, you know, the business can't see but it's gone from this to I've got these massive big stainless steel balls on the bench, you know, that I'm super, super proud of my granola, I'm proud of all my products. I'm really proud of my products. I've gone into sweets, but it didn't start like that it started with savory meals. That's how it started. But it's just evolved into sweets and, and most of them are, you know, whole food, sweets with, you know, not massive amounts of sugar or anything like that little bit of sugar in the chocolate. And then it was my youngest daughter who was vegan for some time and she just said to me one day she said mum, she said I love all the healthy stuff or the you know, air quotes again, the healthy you know, super wholesome stuff. But she said I'm craving something rubbish. something sugary, something she she's the she was the one that got me to start with the donuts. Yeah, she said I just would love a doughnut that's vegan, but it's oozing sugar and you know, all that decadent stuff. And I sit on it goes so against my grain. She said no, ma'am, but, but maybe that's what people would like. And I went oh, like it was like a cheddar arm up behind my back. Please, please. So I relented and the donuts went gangbusters. Yeah, they were just couldn't keep up with cheese, which would call me every second day. Um, random doughnuts. Doughnuts. And yeah, I had my whole bent kitchen bench was just wall to wall doughnuts, you know, laid out, you know, steaming, you know, calling and I was icing and getting them into containers and labels and taking them back down to shoes apples and, and, and my daughter's gone. See what I'm talking about? Mom? Okay, you're right. So then, you know, I've got I've got a few lines that aren't the wholesome type. But you know, people love those as well. So there's a place for both. Yeah, but I will always always focus on the whole food. You know, the really decadent or the decadent, healthy lines. And I'll always have some decadent, not quite so many lines. But it's the balance. Yes, exactly. Balance. Yeah. So you you make it all here, nothing gets made anywhere else will perish. And with oh, he saw with these two hands. Yeah. And I thought and I thought and had it suggested to me many a time that I should scale the business and, you know, do more and send it to more places and get it out there more. But I'm a real people person. And I I don't know, maybe it's cutting off my nose to spite my face because I'm sure the business could be much bigger. But I I want it to be my two hands. And I want to I like to hand deliver my things, you know, go down to Metro and Tony and I'll have a hug and stand out the back and talk about the meaning of life. And yeah, we talked for five minutes about just Frank and you know what she's doing there and then and then we go Want to other things and, and I love that. And if I don't if I don't do that I'm just in the kitchen by myself. And that's quite isolating at times, just to be by yourself, you know, with your own thoughts. And when you're an anxiety sufferer like I am your own thoughts aren't always the best thing to be with by yourself. But yeah, I love to get out. And sometimes if I'm lucky, I'll I'll sit in the cafe and I'll see somebody eating my food, which is like, blows my mind every time I'm nearly eight years down the track and to see someone with a plate with my food on it, enjoying it with their coffee. Yeah, it's us to have to pinch myself. It's pretty awesome. It is pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. I love that. So you do have some of your products do go to Adelaide when you go to Adelaide. With Yeah, take a I've got a cafe in West Croydon up there. Joy flora, and beautiful Mark. He he supports my little business and his customers love my goodies. They're completely different to what he has there. So yeah, he's he's always flicking me a message saying when you're coming next, I need some more. Or if my girl was at home, they'll take they'll take him. They've just taken a delivery back this weekend for him. So he claps his hands. He says, Yeah. And he has to ration it out. Like yeah, keeps it keeps it in his cool room. And he just puts out a couple at a time because he says he wants them just buy it all. And then I don't know when you're coming next. And freight so expensive. It's just, it's just ridiculous to probably cost me $40 To send him a box, and you lose that personal connection is so cool. Yeah. You say, Yeah, I love it. I love going up there and seeing him and we have a have a certain. And again, talk about the meaning of life. And I don't know, I just seem to attract these really deep people. And you don't talk about the weather. We talk about other stuff. And I love it. You love it. So you've also had a gardening business in the past? I have, I have and a lot of people don't know that. And what a contrast from this to that. So in 2009, after 22 years together, my husband and I separated. And I've been a stay at home mum for you know, probably 16 of those years and had done paid work in that time. But I've always we made a we made a very firm decision together when we first had children that I would stay home. And he would go to work very traditional. Probably the feminists now would be like, What the hell? What century are you from, but we loved it. We absolutely loved it. It was that whole, you know, he had well, he'd call me he was he at the time he was a rep on the road. And he would call me and he would say I'm going to be home at 530. So 530 on the dot, he'd walk in the door, he'd go straight to the bedroom get changed, and I put tea on the table, the kids would all come in and it was our family times that we'd sit down and talk about our day and it was the highlight of the day. And you know, he had come home to the fire was going and he quite often comments on it's just so nice to walk inside and the kids were laughing and laundry they were laughing every day. And mum wasn't either. But it was a very traditional in air quotes, you know, that kind of situation that we had and we just we both loved our roles. So, when we separated I thought what am I going to do? So I was offered a part time job which I was happy to take and we agreed when we separated on a 5050 split which we discussed at length and we were both happy with that situation we were freehold so we just decided who was having what car and I'm making it sound very cold and emotionless. But you know, I think we can probably you can probably gather that it wasn't like that. But for the purposes of just saying how it was. And we had also we'd been in the house for 20 years so it was very firmly a family home and and when we bought the house there was no garden there was nothing so we I'd spent the majority of that time building the most beautiful if I do say so myself, it was just a magnificent garden with big trees and you know, it was gorgeous. And my ex husband wasn't a big fan of gardening on that scale. So it was agreed that I would buy him out of his share. And he would he would then go on and and do whatever he needed to do with that then the girls would then stay in the home as well. So That's what we agreed to say. We got the finances sorted. We, we got a solicitor each for the purposes of paper signing, not for arguing. And he went off and sign his and I went off and signed mine. My solicitor highly encouraged me to take him to the cleaners basically, and take more than what we'd agreed upon. And when I, when I said to him, No, I'm not doing that. And he, he said, Well, I can't believe you're gonna do that cuz you are entitled to more. And I said, that's what we've agreed to. We've worked together to build what we had. And I said, No, my girls are watching. And I want to be able to look at my children one day, and then look at me, and no, I didn't take their dad to the cleaners, because there's no need for that. And I just didn't want to do that. So we settled and, you know, did our thing. I went off to the bank, and made an appointment and sat down with the, the male bank person, you know, stated my case, I had a part time job coming up, and I had more than more than, you know, like, I had more than what I needed to, you know, do what I needed to do. And he flipped through his papers. And he said, All I can see, you know, I can see your husband's name here as the financial contributor. I mean, it were the house was jointly owned, but he, he was the one that, you know, his name was on the finances and things like that. And he said, I can't see. Can't see here anywhere where you know, you've done too much. And, you know, you'll need to, because, because stay at home, mother was not only raised the children, yeah, the next generation of taxpayers, if you like. So he said, Well, I said, Well, I've got part time work. So and it was, you know, like, for me to pay his share out was, you know, it wasn't a massive, it's not like I was I was asking for the whole amount. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And he said, Well, you need to, you need to go out and get full time work. And you'll need to do that for 12 months before, we will look at the fact that you can actually contribute to your repayments. So, I mean, I'm reparable about that. Now, when I look back, and every time I think about it, it makes my makes me so angry. But at the time, I understand they had to, they had to know they were going to get their money, I get that. So I walked out of the bank, devastated and devastated. It's probably an understatement. But turns out that because of time, my husband didn't want to wait. So he ended up buying me out. But he he got he got approval medically, he got overnight approval, he bought me out, paid me out the whole thing, the whole thing was settled. So my girls and I moved out, got a rental. And the only way I could get the rental because I had no rental history was to pay six months rent upfront. So out of my share of our settlement, I had to take $8,000 and pay for a house for us to live in for six months. And then I thought, well, what am I going to do for work now? Because you know, if I'm going to buy a house, eventually I'm going to need full time work. So I thought I have no idea what I'm going to do. Say, when one day I was driving along, whatever new and I saw this, little youth parked on the side of the road, and it got me thinking I thought what am I good at? Well, I'm good at cooking, and I'm good at gardening. And there, that's the extent of my skills, really. So I thought, right, so anyway, I went back, I drove back to the UK, and I got the guy's phone number and I called him up and I made an offer and it was it was like a $1,200 unit nothing. I got it for $1,000. So I called up my girls and I said I need someone if I come home. I need to pick someone up and come back and help me pick this caravan. They're like, what the hell man? What are you doing? And I said, Well, I've just bought this little unit. I'm going to throw my gardening tools in it. And I'm going to try and get some gardening work around town. And they said a rodeo. Okay. So I got the you took it home threw all my tools in and at the time I lived. You know, we live in a colder SAC and Father Brian Ashworth lived at the end of the cold reset for the Anglican Church. And him and his wife were walking past and then I said oh, what are you what are you doing here? And I said, Oh, well um, I didn't know what I was going to do for a job. So I'm going to see if I can get some gardening work. Ah, well, we've got some things down here that we need doing. They had like a terrorist garden, and he couldn't get up anymore. The steps to do the gardening, so they got me to have a look. And I said, Yeah, that's great. I'll come down to your wedding and mow your lawns. And, of course, big congregation at the Anglican Church isn't. So Brian told someone and that person told someone and before I knew it, I had six or seven clients. So I thought, well, I probably need to get myself a an accountant to sort out all these 1000s and 1000s of dollars that I'm going to make. that I needed to, I needed to get tongue in cheek for sure. I needed to sort my finances out. So I invested an accountant and I went to the accountant, and we're going through all my, my things. And he said, so watch this lump sum of money that you've got sitting here in the bank, which was the settlement from the house. And I said, I Well, that's my, that's my settlement. And he said, Well, why is it sitting here in the bank? He said, You know, you would probably really should be doing something with that. And I said, Well, I wanted to buy a house, but the bank have refused to give me any money. And he said, Well, that's interesting. He said, Have you sought the services of the financial advisor? And I said, No. And he said, Well, Marian Kilsby, she's just around the corner. at MITRE, she said, You, you need to pop around there and have a chat to her, she'll be able to help you out. And I said, Ah, you know, Jennifer really want to do that I'm pretty broken by that. And I just don't want to be refused. Again, I'd rather just sit the money there. And I'll just see what happens. It's a nice, and I think she'll be able to help you. So I made an appointment with Marian, I'd never met Mary. And before I got to my appointment, and I had, I remember having a hanky stuffed in my pocket, and I was walking my eyes, I just didn't want to have to go in there and, and go through this again. So she called me in, got to walked up the hallway and got to the door. And she stopped at her door to sort of, you know, flag me through and she looked at me, she could see I'd been crying. And she said, what's wrong. And I said, I, you know, I'm just broken by all this. And you know, I just didn't really want to have to go through this whole situation with the bank. And she kicked the door shut with her stiletto heel, she pushed a box of tissues across the table. And she said, that'll be the last time we're going to cry about this. She said we've got some work to do. So we we spent the next hour going through everything. And she said, Nope, she said, look, let's let's get your house, she said, have you seen something you're like I see I have I've seen this beautiful house that I would like to buy. And it's not huge. And it's you know, it's an older home. And I really, really love it. And it's just I probably didn't realize at the time, but it was a similar style to the home that that had been married to her money, it was just a bit smaller. But the layout was literally exactly the same just minus didn't have the big family room, and I didn't need that anymore. So she said, Well, you go and get yourself an inspection. And this is the amount that I think we'll be able to get for you if you want to go and borrow some money from the bank. And I said, Are you are you joking? She said, No, no, she said, off you go. So I booked it. I booked an inspection at the house and went through the house by myself. I didn't take the girls, I just thought I just need to do this in case in case it all comes back to bite me. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up about it. Had a look. Went back to Marian and I told her about it. She said if you go and make an offer, go make an offer on it. So I made an offer. And we did a bit of that was in forwards and put the offer in, gave that to Marian and she called me that night and she said well, you've got phone approval from the bank. And like I literally dropped to my knees. And I said, Don't tell me you're not joking. I said what are the chances of this all going sour? And she said, it's probably not. It's it's for real. And you know, I think I think you'd be right. So back to the real estate agent and my loan was approved and I bought my house. So that's how the gardening happened. And the gardening just grew and grew and grew. And it got to the point where I couldn't keep up anymore by myself. So I employed someone that didn't end up end up working out because you know, it wasn't quite the right person. And by then my body was pretty broken. I was I mean I was wielding chainsaws and you know, I my husband, my ex husband called me up one day and he said, he said someone's just come back to work and told me they saw you on wheel street with a chainsaw cutting the limbs off an overhanging tree on the footpath. That's right. What are you doing? I say, Well, I'm trying to earn a living here. He said, My goodness. He said that's a lot. And I said yes, a lot. But I did that for almost five years. And my customers were when I look back on that my customers were I really struggled with empty nesting. And my customers were my people. They were my family. They were I go Mostly for the elderly, mostly elderly women who were on their own. I had a few beautiful elderly gentleman as well. He lost their wives. And almost every gardening, like I booked, I booked an eight hour day. But probably six hours was working two hours was cups of tea. Yeah. So I mean, you can't can't garden for an 85 year old without having a cup of tea at the end and connection for them as well. I had one particular lady who used to wait on the footpath for me to come, she was coming at a certain time. And she would, she would wait out for me. But the bonds are built with those customers. Where was everything for me, they were they were like another family, it was the best. So yeah, I did that. And then my body started to break. And my GP at the time was one of my very, very dearest friends. And she kept saying to me, Leah, you just cannot keep doing this. I had neck issues, I had shoulder issues, my back was virtually broken. And I just kept going and going and going because A, I didn't want to let my people down. They were I just couldn't let them down. And I didn't know what else I was going to do for a job, or now had this mortgage, which wasn't huge. But I used to have, I used to wake up in the night in a hot sweat. And I used to lay there and like I'd wake up startled. And I'd think and I'd be crying. And I'd say to myself, You are totally responsible for this mortgage on your own. Like there's, there's no one to bail you out. Now, like I said, it wasn't big, but just that, like when you've been married for so long. And you've always got that person next to you. If you know if something happens, you've you've got them and you can feed off each other and get through it together. But when you when you're doing it by yourself and I was doing Need I say or hesitate to say man's a man's job. It was a male dominated business that I was working in. I did find out once there was a crew of gardeners who have more than one vehicle around town. That one Christmas one of their Christmas shows they had they were making bets on how long it would last in the business. They were laughing Ah at my at the fact that I was doing it. And they were making taking bets as to how long I would be in the business. So but anyway, five years ago, five years. So yeah, that was that was seen, well offered, I would have thought that would have upset me when I was told that. And I was told by another gardener who was at that Christmas show. And he came back to me and he said that we said you wouldn't you should have heard them. I thought it would have made me sad, but it actually infuriated me. And it drove me to work even harder. And it's probably how I broke myself. Because I'm like, I'll show you Yeah, and then and then now, you know, I had a lot to prove I had a lot to prove to myself and to the fact that it was a male dominated industry that I was working in. And at that time, I was the only female out there doing it. And I think that's why I appealed to the female, the elderly females that I worked for, because I think they felt safe. I had the keys to a lot of gates and gardening sheds and and I often wouldn't tell them I was going to be there I'll just open the gate and walk in knock on the door. So I think they felt safe me wandering around the yard. And yeah, you know, it was a different a different thing for them rather than having a guy No offense to the guys. But yeah, I think it's just a fact very, very reasonable to say. Absolutely. So my body was telling me it was time. And I had been sharing recipes on my Facebook page just to my friends, you know, I made this and, and it's funny a memory came up the other day. And it was funny how many people would say Oh, well, that's really nice. And then I'd write I'll share the recipe with if you like, and someone would say, Oh, yes, please. And then someone would go, Oh, me too, please and meet it. And it just went from two people asking for the recipe to you know, 789 people and then I started a blog. So I had a blog and I'd share my recipes on the blog and that that grew. And then I thought, Ah, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to do a little trial. I'm going to make some morning teas and I'm going to take them to a couple of places for free. And I'm not going to tell them they're vegan. And I'm just gonna say so Marian from modest home loans was one I messaged her and I said hey, Marian, you want to be part of a little trial. Just want to bring in some morning teas for you. So off, and I just want to see how they use and mortgage real estate was the other. So I did that for a while and they're like, ah, that's amazing. Yeah, where were you know, it was no one no one could tell. And that's good. Then I then I started making morning teas and advertising them on my Facebook page that I would deliver to workplaces. And that went really well. Then I thought, Oh, that's cool. Maybe I could make a menu. So I made a menu. So it was a three course lunch. So it was a snack, a main and a dessert. And I made a different menu every week. And people could order from the menu. And they would, they would pay me in cash when I got there, or they could direct deposit and, and I just put them in my car and I would drive them around. So I registered my kitchen and got all that past and started that. Now I was working. I was working four days a week in my gardening business from 630 in the morning to whenever it was dark was when I backed the youth back into the driveway. Fly out of the year on a Thursday night jump in the shower. check my emails to get all my how many people were going to order I'd literally do an all nighter and I kid you not I would I would work and you asked my girls, the couple that were still home. I would work literally through the night to four or five o'clock in the morning. Have quick sleep, jump up, pack all the orders up. And Friday was delivery day. So I'd work Friday morning, throw everything in the car and 11 o'clock and deliver everything. Well that just got out of control. Like you got to be careful what you wish for. So that so then I cut Thursdays out of my gardening business. So it was manage Tuesday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday menus. That group started doing markets on the weekend. So it was Monday, Wednesday gardening, Thursday, Friday, Saturday preparation for a Sunday market. And I was just working I was working 18 hour days every day. So it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday gardening and getting out of the ute, throwing all my dirty clothes in a pile having a shower, getting dressed and then straight into the kitchen. It was ridiculous. Yeah. And it wasn't long before. My not only my physical body, but my mental health just did a spiral when I can remember the day that it happened. It was like a, it was an actual moment that I remember, this is out of control, and I can't keep doing it. But then, then I just don't know how to put it into words. I'd built these businesses from scratch. And I still get really emotional about my gardening business about letting it go. Because the process of letting something go that you built from scratch. And that was a crutch for me through some of my darkest moments after my marriage breakup. And I couldn't just give these people to somebody else. Yeah. You had a real relationship, didn't you? Yeah. And Mike can bless his heart. He said, You know, you've got a sellable business here. Let's let's value the business. And because I had one, I bought a beat up all year, but I upgraded to a near New to our highlights that I paid cash for. I had a trailer built from scratch a great big trailer with all the toolboxes and I paid cash for that. And I was so proud of what I've built. And my ex husband was proud of me too, you know, he, he, he was really proud of what I what I what I built and how I pulled myself up and got back on my feet. And I said to my accountant, I can't. This is exactly what I said to myself, I can't give I can't sell my people. And he just looked at me and he said, I know what you're saying, but, but this is a sellable business. I said I can't sell my people. That's the bottom line. I understand that I'm probably throwing money down the drain, but I can't do it. I said I can sell all my plant and equipment. But I need to find homes for my people. So I hand picked other gardeners that I knew. And I had a couple of guys that had often helped me throughout the years. And if I had a really heavy job that I couldn't do, I call up these couple of guys who are friends to this day. They're just the most beautiful men. And I rang them and I said, Hey, how many people can you take on because I've got this lady and I think she'd really suit you. And I've got this gentleman who's got a big lawn so your ride on mower would be really cool. And between us, we worked it out. They took they took this one and that one and I took I met them there and introduce them to these people. I couldn't I couldn't it took me it took me 12 months to ease myself out of the business and and it wasn't until I knew everybody was okay. That I let it go and I still kept to to Alienware I was doing just Frank full time and I was in the full swing of it. I had two beautiful women that I kept that I just couldn't let go. And I knew one sadly was not going to be with us for a long time. So I kept her to the end. And the other lady I eventually left Got it because I just couldn't keep doing it. So that was how I got out of gardening. That's massive, isn't it? It was it's a real big, almost grieving process. It was that 12 months, I'm moving through those stages. That's huge. And my partner now Rob, he, he held my hand all the way through. At first, he was a bit like my account, and he's like, just sell it, let it go. And he saw how many meltdowns I had. I said, I can't and it won't matter how you how you explain it to me. I just can't do it. It just meant it. Just it was like it'd be like selling my mum. Yeah, because that's who they were to me. They were just, you know, beautiful, beautiful people, and I couldn't do it. So I sold my plant and equipment. And that was easy. Yeah. It was easy, but But I worked hard for those things to that I partnered with those and I swapped the Toyota Hilux for a little Holden Combi van that I had signed, written with just Frank emblazoned all over the site. And I had a different vehicle to sell a different thing. So yeah, and it just grew. She's apples and matrei. I cannot speak highly of for the support they've given me Tony from Metro was the first person to put a hand up and say, bring it in here. We'll have it in. I took my first products in there. And she's apples. Yeah. There have been amazing they. They let me do they just give me free rein. Yeah. I know. That probably sounds if they they'll listen to this. And they'll be like, Yeah, we pretty much do. I mean, I just I just went in the other day and spoke to Raleigh and I said, Hey, Raleigh. I've got he handles all the all my granola on the shelf. It's his department. I said, Hey, Raleigh, I've got a new product coming that's that I want to put on the shelves. It's not not refrigerated. It's a do it. Like a make it home mix in a bag? Yeah, cool. Let us know when you bring it in, we'll make it make a space on the shelf. I mean, how good is that? Yeah. I mean, they're just, they're just that my biggest supporters, and they support so many small businesses in our community. You can ask for more than they can. Yeah, that's fantastic, isn't it is it is I'm so grateful. And as I said, Tony has been a mentor as well. She's mentored me through some break down moments where I've said, I don't know which way to take this, you know, maybe I'll just throw it all in on it's too much. And she said, just take a minute, just scale it just take out the things you don't want to do. You know, she's, she's sat there and talked me off a cliff a few times. And she doesn't need to, she probably wonders why haven't come in lately, but to have those chats, but I've I think she's taught me a lot about how to manage things. And don't let things get out of hand, don't do things you don't want to do say no, when you need to say no. And I'm pretty good at that. Now. Yeah, that's a big thing, too. For women, but also people that are really highly sensitive energetically, you are, because our first instinct is to just please go yes, no worries, I'm gonna do that. And then you think about afternoon, Oh, crap, how am I going to do it, and then you burn yourself into a hole to satisfy other people. So that is a big thing to be able to say that. And you know what, I'd be lying. If I said it also wasn't an ego thing. Yeah. Because, of course, if people love your stuff, and they want it, you just want to keep on giving, giving, giving, giving, because he would I feel would I be to say, you know, no, I don't want you to showcase my product, you know. And if I was 20 years younger, maybe I would have scaled it, maybe I would have, maybe I would have found the right person to help me and I would have scaled it. But you know, I don't want to do that. Now. I want it to be me. And I love and I've contained it now. You know, you've made it manageable for you to keep maintaining what you're doing because I was going to burn out for sure. And I saw that and my mental health was suffering big time. And menopause is a bitch. Let me tell you menopause is nearly bought me unstuck. Anxiety was like it hit me. You know, I thought menopause was hot flashes. And that's really all I'd seen my mum go through. Yeah. And yeah, when it when it hit, it was a bitch. And it nearly took me anxiety was mean, Rob will tell you I used to. It kept me in the house. Yeah. And when I was when I was delivering meals, I would I would get all my deliveries lined up ready to go. And I would quite often have to call him because we didn't live together then. I would quite often have to call him and he would. He would literally have to talk me step by step out of the house, to the car. And to the first place once I was at the first place. I was fine. But actually leaving the house and I think it was a bit of impostor syndrome, as well. I think I was like it, I was fine while I was cooking it was fine while I was getting the orders off my website and you know, my emails and all the things, but once it came to actually coming face to face with the people I was like, Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? With your name written on your car driving around, pretending you're somebody you know people think you do these things and oh, wow, that's so cool. She's, you know, got this successful business. They really have no idea what goes on. In your mind sometimes. Yeah, because it's not it's not all what it appears on the outside. I want to go to a point where you you talked about being an empty nester. So you have three daughters. I do, obviously they're not living in your wetsuit. I have two in Adelaide. So my eldest and middle daughter, Cassie and Mia. They're both in Adelaide. And I had Georgia here and Matt cambia. Thank Good. Thank goodness, one of them stayed. I yeah, I don't, I totally understand why they've, you know, gone. Mia went off to uni when she was 19. And and I remember driving my husband I had had separated not long before. And I can't swear because he swore when he said it to me, but I can't swear on here, can I? So we were so we we made a pact with each other when we separated that we would always parent Well, together, we would continue to parent, our girls were 2119 and 14 when we separated. So they weren't babies. But it's still it's still impactful on the family unit. No matter what age they are. But I guess a little bit easier when they're older. They they knew things weren't great at home. So the writing was on the wall. But we We vowed that no matter what happened between us, we would we would still do our best to parent with the first 12 months were a bit bit rocky while everyone navigated and there was a lot of hurt and the normal things that go on in in a breakdown. But we wanted to drive me to uni ourselves together. So what who does that who separates from the husband then gets in a car in a confined space for five hours and drive somewhere? You can't get out. But you can just open the door. It was quiet. Let's just say it was quiet. So we drove her up to Flinders, and we took her in and it was orientation day and all the things and we, you know, took her up to her room and we got her settled and then it was time to go. Well, me, Cassie, Cassie had moved out that Mia was the second one. Cassie was still in town that me was the first one to move away. Say I was I was such a hands on mum. I'll stop short of saying I was a helicopter parent because I don't think I was a helicopter parent. I've actually asked my girls since that terms been thrown around. I've said to my girls, do you think I was a helicopter parent? I said no. But I just was there. I was just there. When I was needed. I was there and sometimes probably when I was not needed or not wanted I was there. But it was it was gut wrenching to leave her there. And we walked out of we walked out of the building. And we were walking back to the candidate like I was sobbing. I was sobbing and he was walking behind me. And he knew what kind of Mama was say, you know, he probably shouldn't have said it. But he said, What's wrong with you? And I turned around, I said, you know what's wrong with me? And he said, Oh, I don't know why you're crying. I'm actually not fucking dying. Well, it's a long way from Adelaide to make me when you're just looking out the window. You're not speaking to each other because I never spoke. I never spoke to him all the way home I just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. I cried. I cried all the way home and I probably cried for the next week, because I knew I knew she wasn't coming back. I knew once she went to Adelaide and she found her new life. She wasn't coming back. And that's okay. That's okay, because that's what they're meant to do. And, and we're meant to let them spread their wings and fly. But nothing prepared me for, for how I was going to navigate that myself. And because I'd been such a hands on Mum, I didn't know who I was. And I think even when, when our marriage was nearing the end, I could see the writing on the wall, like, you know, the oldest one starts leaving the house a bit more. So you've got to, and then the next one starts to go. And we had a, we had a five year gap between our middle daughter and Georgia. So say, they the two were gone, and Georgia was still home a lot. And then they'd come back. And you know, things ebbed and flowed. But the times when it was just Georgia and, and my husband and I, I remember, I could feel it, I would look, I would look around and I could feel the anxiety and I was looking around, I was thinking like, I'm doing the movement, no one can see me, but I'm doing the movements. Now. While I'm telling you, because I can tell you that it makes me anxious, because I could see it coming. And the panic. And for anyone that knows me, well, I had an eating disorder. Around that time, sort of maybe maybe four years before we separated. And I think it was, I think it was the struggle of me trying to find myself. And I didn't know who I was I had I had, I didn't have anything else yet. I mean, I didn't have I hadn't made it. I didn't have a career. I mean, I've been an Avon rep for 15 years, I sold Avon. And that's how we saved that extra bit of money. And I worked at spotlight part time for a few hours here and there. But I've never I didn't know who I was apart from being someone's mom, someone's wife and someone's mom. So when I when I actually was present in the moment, and I could see it coming. I was literally panic stricken. What the hell am I going to do with my life? And I looked across at my ex husband bless his heart, and I thought we hadn't worked on our relationship. We didn't do these date nights that people do now. And we didn't have holidays by ourselves. We had one night out a year. And that was for our anniversary. So we did. We took holidays with our children. I mean, we took our kids on a honeymoon because we had to before we were married. Yeah. So we took the kids on our honeymoon. So when we dropped me off and came back, I, my marriage had fallen apart. My daughter had just left and gone to Adelaide, which I'm not, I'm not blaming her. I'm just saying this was a huge thing to get happened all together in my life. My eldest daughter have moved out when once I bought my house and moved into it, she moved out it was and she was ready to do that she was probably going to do that anyway. So I moved into my new home with with my middle daughter, my youngest daughter, well, then, my middle daughter went to Adelaide and I came back. And it was it was Georgia and I in the house. And that was fantastic. Because we shared some wonderful moments together. But I just didn't know what was going to happen next. I had no clue what was going to happen. And Georgia had a boyfriend and so she was out of the house a lot. And man a man did I have to do some soul searching in those times. There were like, you know, have you ever cried that guttural kind of cry? You know, there's the kind that it hurts every part of your body. And it's that, that I remember sitting in front of my fireplace on my little stool that I had there. And it was just Yeah, I was empty. run dry? Didn't I just didn't know how I was going to go to the next bit. That you did, though? I did. Yeah, I did. And all these, you know, there's, you look back and you think of all the people that you think you did it by yourself, but no one does it by themselves. No one does it without little things that happen, you know, Marian, with the the finances and my accountant. You know, people like that who you just he just steered you a little bit in that direction. I had a had a wonderful mentor while I was gardening and Rolton he mentored me, he taught me off mini cliff when I was because it was it was hard being in that industry. And he supported me. You know, he supported me and his wife, Kate, they were just amazing to me in that time. And they you know, I was often on the phone to him having a spoke about something and I remember one day he said to me, Leah, he said, he said this is this is hard for me to tell you. He said you need to take your big girl hat off and you need to put your business hat on. He said you need to get your tissue out of your pocket, wipe your eyes and straighten yourself up and you need to get back to it if that's what you're going to do. And and it was hard to hear because I was because you know I had my my little girl hat on the inside. And that was what was driving me was my little girl heart. But I had to I put my little girl hat there. The Big Business Big Man business heartening because I was dealing with the men out there. Yeah. And my little girl hat wasn't gonna cut it. Big life lessons they were because I, I mean, you know, and trust me to, I don't just do things in half, I never do. So rather than just ease myself into life on my own gently, I'm now just going to rip off all the band aids and I'm going to throw myself into that, you know, gotta get a chainsaw. And I'm gonna change my Lego to cut so Yeah, no worries. Yeah, no, I did. And I'm going to, I'm going to change mine. Mine flat tire out there on AB flat when I get stuck and, you know, got bogged, got bogged, and had to get someone to come and help me out of the matter. I could do a whole podcast on that. Listen stories in there, but I did. I did. But yeah, you've done some massive stuff, haven't you? Do you look back on that and feel really proud of all the stuff that you've done? If you've achieved this stuff? Yeah, I do. But it's still. I still have terrible self esteem. Yeah, after all, that I still don't feel good about myself. And I still, I still struggle terribly with impostor syndrome. Terribly with that, you know, I have to pinch myself. And, and people think a comment on Facebook is like, you know, I put a post up yesterday about my, my famous veggie burgers. And so many people have commented on this thing, though. My favorite thing, though, my favorite thing. And look, I was reading them last night. And I'm thinking, are they talking about me? And you think you think that you read that? And it's an ego trip? Because everyone's telling you how good Yeah, but I'm looking at that. And I actually had to go back through some old stuff. And and remind myself that I did do that. Or like the Neil deliveries, I have to remind myself and it's only if it comes up in my Facebook memories. And I go into Robin, I say, how was I doing that? And gardening as well. And he said, I remember. I don't even know how you did it. He said you just I was on autopilot the whole time. But yeah, when I look back, I think you know, I wasn't well, when I left my marriage. I was still quite unwell. I was my I was very underweight, very underweight. And that could have gone either way. Like I could have taken that work on and literally killed myself doing it because it was pretty physical. But I somehow I found it, I found it in myself. I'm divine intervention, call it whatever you will. I got on top of it. And you know, I don't consider myself to have any eating issues anymore. And eating it, like an eating disorder. It's not about the food. Yeah, anyone that knows anything about it, ya know? So it's just the vehicle which manifests just be any vicious. How could be alcohol can be gambling, it could be drugs. Yeah. Be exercise. Yeah. Anything? Yeah. Because I've had I had that all the comments, you know, why don't you just go home and start eating again. You know, you'll be fine. I'm like, Well, I wouldn't think that what a great idea. Well, yes, oh, well fell apart. And my kids had to witness it. If i Girls witnessed that, and I'm not, you know, talking about regrets and things. If I could go back and change anything. I wished my girls hadn't seen that. Because I lost time with my girls too. I was fighting for my former life. Come on this time with them. And I guess having them there too, might have what it did, it was it was it was all of it. You know, it was all that kept me going and I think I think all these achievements in my life since particularly since my marriage ended. I've always not not watching in a way that they're supervising but I've always known who's watching and I've always wanted to be a good role model for my girls. I've always wanted to be to be able to show my girls that I got up every time I was down I got back up. Yeah, yeah. And I continued to get back up Yeah. I said I don't do things in house. But I got and and I tell them you know, you can do anything. You can do anything. Good for you want to give your heart or your mind saying we just do what we do. Right? No. I come from a family of fighters, you know, my, my mum and dad, this can be okay. If you weren't, I might go into detail. I come from a family of fighters. My, my parents both had, you know, quite traumatic childhoods themselves, you know, things that happened in their lives. And I've it's obviously not spoken about much because that's the generation Yeah, but I know, I don't know all the details and the the strong people, you know, they've come through those things and my sister as well she's had her own mental health battles, you know, like me. And she's stood up and said, Not today, Satan. She's gotten on with the show, and I'm super, super, super proud of her for how she's gotten on with her life, too. So, you know, I've had had that around me, but I think it's, I think it's from a mom's perspective, I always knew my girls were watching on. And like I said, I just didn't ever want to, I want to show them strengthen. You know, I wanted to be able to look back and say, and I didn't want to miss. I didn't want to miss anything. I didn't want to miss being a grandparent. Yeah, I mean, imagine if I hadn't fought and I just lost my battle with that. I would have missed all of this. And they missed out too. They missed, you know, how many phone calls I get during the week. And hey, mom, or, you know, it can be for advice, or it can be, you know, just when they're having a moment, you know, and I'm so blessed that I still have my mum. Yeah, I had my mum and my dad in very good health at a dad's 86 and mums at one. And I've got so I've got my parents on this side. And I've got my now got my grandchildren. I've got three beautiful grandchildren over here. And I have, it's an interesting place to be, because I'm in the middle. And I'm, I'm helping mom and dad with this. But I've also had the absolute blessing of being able to call my mom and say, Hey, ma'am, you know, when I was really unreasonable when this was happening, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I didn't realize. But shit. It's happening to me now. And man, I'm sorry. I understand now why you were like that, or why? You know why that happened? Because and I know a lot of people don't have their mums. When they get to the point I met with grandchildren, they don't have their mums. And my heart hurts for those women who don't have the mums to say that too. But I'm just lucky. And I do it. I do it. Because it's important to me to be able to tell my mum that I understand now Mum, you know, I get it. And and I'm proud of you mum for it for the way you got through that or you know, whatever. And mother nice to do lock horns. Sometimes she's the only one she's still feisty. We're about that as family though. We got more sometimes that we are lucky that I've been able to tell her. That's lovely and fit. Like, my my pop passed away. Almost a year ago, he was 94 for my boys to have their great grandfather. Like I just kept saying to him, You are so lucky to have a great crowd. Oh, yeah. Like not many people get to have, you know, I just wanted to impress that upon them. Yeah. Well, while they had him, you know? Well, I think I have that relation. Yes. Oh, definitely seen? Definitely. And I look on, you know, I could probably still pick on mum and dad for bits and pieces of things. But you know, we, we will all work with the tools we've got. Yes, we absolutely is no instruction manual. I know that's thrown around a lot that thing, but it's so true. It is. And I tell my girls now that they're parenting themselves. I say that to him. And there's, you know, I say to them, you know that feeling you get here in the pit of your stomach. That's called your gut instinct. And you need to trust it every single time over, over your friends over sometimes your partner if you've got a gut, say got this I don't want to get troubled is the medical profession. They have their place. But I've seen to answer magazines. And you know what, when I look back on all the times, I didn't trust it. I was right every time. Every single time. There's I don't think there's a time that I wasn't right about trusting my gut. And I got myself into some, you know, terrible situations at times because I just went ah, I'm sure this will be fine. It wasn't fun. It was never fun. And yeah, probably go back. You can't honor that. I told I use that for them. I say to them, trust it. Because most of the time, you'll be spot on. Because you just know you know your own babies. So yeah, that's it. No one knows your children better than you do. them. I did it I find it incredible the amount of stories I hear, like through so Sure media mums who weren't listened to? It's like, even now, you think, haven't we evolved enough to know? You know, obviously medicine has its place? Absolutely. But to be able to just don't know. I don't know. I hear what you're saying. And even as women, imminence women off, you try you try getting an appointment, or you try getting into see about a women's issue or anything like that. I'm not going to go into into that. But anyway, it's it's a catastrophe, the system is a catastrophe. And, and I'm not surprised more women don't die. Because of it. Yeah, that's so and I'm sure it happens to men too. If there's any men listening, I'm not. I'm not saying it's, you know, but I can only speak from a woman's perspective because I'm a woman. So I can just say from my experience, I think it's a catastrophe scary. Yep. When with your butt, okay, you've said in the past, haven't you girls, you know, always, you're conscious of them, you know, they're always watching in your role modeling. Do you feel like that even now, when they're, you know, moved away, and growing up that it's there watching how, you know, you run your business authentically. And you've had the chance to, you know, upscale it and do whatever, but you're sticking to this. What's important to you? Probably, I mean, to be perfectly honest, I'm most often think that not even looking. They're so busy with their lives. But but every now and again, they'll come up with a somewhat, we have a Facebook chat. And we have all versions of that we have the family chat group, which is the three girls, their partners, and my partner, then we have the three girls and meet, I'm sure they have a private one of their own that they discussed things that I want to talk about with me. Well, I know they do. Then we have all the versions. So I've got Mara and Cassie, I've got Cassie in Georgia, I've got Georgia and you don't I mean, someone's birthday, and you just want to talk probably maybe we got to check the names really carefully. But every now and every now and then I'll get a message from someone, or they're in the group or out of the group. And they've noticed something. And it makes me cry. Like, there's such beautiful human beings. And they just say the most beautiful things. They're so supportive. They're so they're so proud. They're proud of both their dad and myself. But when they when they say it, almost, I almost feel undeserving of it. Yeah. And it shocks them if they if if they do something like that, or they say something nice and I react that way. So why why does it upset you Mimosa just feel so undeserving of, of their, of their love and care. They're just such beautiful humans, they really are. And I and I do think they see what I'm doing. Because they tell me they're proud. They see it, they see what I'm doing. Or if I get down on myself and I say something in front of them. They remind me they'll say, man, look at what you've done. Like you've run these two successful businesses and like I'm, I'm literally a breath away from paying my house off. It's I can I can touch it. It's happening very, very soon. And they'll they'll say, but you did that yourself. And, and as I said, you don't do anything useful if you've had help, but I haven't been employed by anybody else in that time. Yeah. So I've created these two businesses and and I've done that. And that's, if I think about that, that's big. And that shows them that, although I've had I've had my partner support, you know, here now, I've done that part of it myself. And they've they've watched me come from being a crying mess, literally when it first all started to you know, have stood up and, and got on with the show. And I'm and I think they're great. The product is a great thing for them to see from their mom. I think particularly from their mum. Yes, yeah. And then growing up in that era where there was the traditional role. Yeah, you know, if anyone was going to go out and earn the money was the Dad Yeah. So to have their mother achieve this, you know, that's, that's massive. And it just gives them that confidence that you know, you don't need someone you don't need to be married or a partner of someone who's bringing in money for you. You can go out and do it yourself. Which is huge. And I didn't I mean, it's not like my mum didn't work. My mum worked from the time I went to school my mom worked for so long. I didn't see it. Yeah. But it's what I wanted to do. Yeah. And I remember having a discussion on the humanities floor at Grant High School in year 10. And you know, you're all standing around on What's everyone doing? You picking your subjects and all that. And, and I didn't realize it was going to be such an embarrassing topic. But everyone was saying, oh, you know, what are you going to do and someone was going to be a teacher, and someone was going to be a pharmacist and did it at air and, and I sit on, it came around to me, and I said, I just want to be a mom. And like, it was just this deathly quiet because even then, it was an unusual thing for someone who knew 10 to say they wanted to just be a mum. And it was just, you know, air quotes again. Yeah, just be a man. And they said, oh, and I said, Yeah, I can, like, I just want to have the house with the fence and the whole thing. And it's, it's truly all I saw for myself. Yeah. Very ambitious. What do you think that came from what you said, your mom, I don't, I don't want to. If my mom listens to this, I don't want my mom to think that she did anything wrong. But my earliest memory as a child was and truly is my earliest memory. And it's really emotional for me is when my mom dropped me off at kindy. Standing it was the head like a, this is how vivid it is. They had a like a cement box that covered the gas meter. And I was and I stood up on the gas meter box held and held it held on to the front fence and I was screaming for my mom she was I can see her walking to the little green Maurice mana that we had, and her getting in the car and leaving me there, which everyone did. And when I left the kids at kindy it's not like she did anything, you know, horrible. And I was out, I was just wanting her to come back. Come back and update. Don't leave me here, ma'am. And I was beside hysterical. And back then. I didn't know what I was wearing. That's how vivid it is. I haven't seen a photo. It's just like, it's like a trauma to me. And I had this beautiful little dress that mom had made and a hand knitted cardigan with buttons down the front and mum used to pin a hankie on the outside with a gold safety pin. And I had my hankie pinned, and I was tugging at my hanky, and she's driving off in the car lift me at kindy. That's my earliest childhood memory. And I think it's stuck with me. It's just stuck with me. And I, and I just never wanted my kids to feel like that. And I know it was a moment, and I'm sure once mom left, and they took me inside. I mean, I don't even remember anyone coming to get me that's I just remembered that. But I'm sure I was fine. I'm sure once I got inside, I was okay. But that sorry for me that that may wanting my mum, I didn't want my girls to have a moment of that. So for me, and and Tony and I spoke about it very early on, he was in full agreement with we that was something we chose together to. I just wanted to be home and I wanted to raise my own children, um, and I locked horns many a time because Mum, mum would say, I will, I'll come and you know, I can come and take them and do this, or I can come and do that. I said, I want to do it myself. And I remember having a big argument with them. When he said you and your bloody independence, it shifts me. And I said, Mom, I didn't have my children for someone else to have them. I want you to be a Nana. But I don't want you to I don't want you to take them and parent them. I don't. I don't want that. And that's how I that's how I chose to be a mom. It's what I wanted to. It's what I wanted to do, you know, I did the and we didn't have much money. It came with sacrifices, because we, you know, it was back when I make it sound like it's back in the ice age. But it was it was a different it was a different time. It was a different time. I mean, so, so much different to now we had, we got paid in an envelope, you know, the money came in a pay envelope, and it came with a pay slip, you know, and we had an exercise book, and Tony would come home on a Friday night with the pay. And we'd get the kids off doing something and we'd sit down, open up the book now. And this is when you paid all your bills you drove you got into cars. I remember doing that with we went to the bank and you paid your house payment. The house payment was just a number of $100. So we'd sit down we'd put all the cash down and we'd sit together and it's like okay, so 100 for that 100 there. The telephone bills $44 If you put everything out to put it in a little envelopes. Got $60 left, that's going to pay for the groceries, anything to do with candy or anyone need clothes or that was that was everything. So when I wrote my shopping list, we can't get the chocolate biscuits and I grew all my veggies from scratch. All of them. I had a we had a big backyard. I had a massive veggie patch. And Tony was Italian and his mum. I mean they were just amazing. They what they didn't gray. Yeah. So she My parents grew veggies too. So between all of us, we all you know, we all were self sufficient. Tony's dad also used to work at the abattoir. So he used to kill all their meat. And this is before Well, before I went vegetarian, but even so we had meat eaters in the house, they they quite often would kill a pig or a sheep or something and bring us around a heap of meat that went in the freezer. But I grew in our grave 50 tomato plants at once and make all my own Persada and yeah, and all the girls, snacks and cakes and biscuits are all cooked from scratch. Didn't not not only could I not afford it, it's it's what I wanted with my day. Yeah, we didn't have we didn't have YouTube to watch or we didn't have Netflix, or we had two channels late and channel two wasn't much to choose from TV actually went off the air. Like it didn't start till 10 o'clock in the morning or something and I took the test pen at night when they're closing this day. Yeah, yep. So So you also couldn't entertain your children with tablets. Yeah, there was no such thing. So you know, you'd get them at the table painting or they'd stand up at the bench I had blue aprons for them and because there was a five year gap between the first two and and the last one that the oldest two would stand up at on chairs at the bench with a little aprons on and they'd help me make biscuit they put the fork marks on the biscuits or make the bowl or you know, I mean the days were full by the time I did all that and we had cloth nappies and no it was a competition between me and the neighbor as to who had the widest nappies on the line and I one by one great soaking soaking nappies and rinsing nappies and all those things. They took time it was though the days were full. Yeah, literally was a full time job. Yep. We've talked about your identity, sort of shift, you know, when the guilds moved, yeah. Because you so strongly wanted to be a man when you became a monk. Was it? Was it what you thought it was gonna be? Or did you was did you sort of your idea? It was it was mostly it was to everything. Yeah, right. I wanted it to be. Yeah, it was. It was everything and I and I'd be lying if I said it was like that every day. Yeah, yeah, there's always ups and downs. Because there were, there was many a day, sitting on a nappy bucket in the laundry with the door shut sobbing into my own arm. While while I could hear the kids laughing out there, you know, there was many a day and I had horrible postnatal depression with my second baby. I had a planned C section she was breech, and they she wouldn't turn say 10 days before her due date. I had a C section. I was partway through her had had an epidural. So I could be awake for it. But they were partway through, bring her out and the epidural wore off. And at that time, it was it was up on the Hill Hospital. And it was a teaching hospital. They were 13 Student midwives in the theater. And I could see my reflection in the theater light. I could see the screener. Oh, it was it was the worst. It was the worst. So they had a head out. And I got I started to get feeling back. And And I'm saying I can feel that I can feel it. And I was starting to panic. And Dr. Foy is saying remember Dr. For you at all, Dr. Boyce saying no. It's just the you can feel the sensation. I said, No. I can feel it. I can feel it. And I was like I was starting to arrive. Oh, God. He's saying can you keep that? Can you keep that woman still? And so like I said, What had happened is the epidural had had blocked but she hadn't blocked the nerve she was laying on. So once they moved her the it just it hadn't worked in that particular spot. Oh my god. So I've got this gaping wound. And I've got complete sensation. So my last memory that they got her out and they put her on my chest thinking that that would calm me down and I'm just pushing her off, you know, so she they grabbed her and lost my last memories, then putting the air hose down my throat while I wasn't out and I'm like I was clawing at it trying to get out. Anyway, I woke up in recovery and all was good. Sorry, I had a big reaction to that because I had zerion and I felt that I didn't feel the pain that you feel but I could feel everything and it scared the shit out. I just did not enjoy it horrible. It was either now I'm feeling goosebumps. Sorry. No, I should have warned you. Yeah, no, that's all right. Yeah, that's a horrible story. I'm so sorry. I mean, they ushering all the once they realized it was serious, it was for real. Like she's not pretending like as if you would like it was bullshit. absolute bullshit. Don't listen to a woman and she's brilliant, but it wasn't them that I thought it was bullshit. It was once I got a bit stronger in the years later. I'm like, that was bullshit. Yeah, because you should listen to me the first time and not worry Well, I would it was wasn't April Fool's Day, by the way I wasn't, you know, it wasn't a joke. But I knew, I knew they knew I was serious when they started ushering all the midwives out and like, ya know, everybody out and Tony had to go out so it was, you know, they put me under and, and then I woke up. I woke up and everyone had already handed my baby around. You know, it wasn't it wasn't it was in that time where that stuff wasn't sensitive either. Maybe students stay with you. They went into a little room didn't No, no, no, no, she she she was in the room. But once they got me from recovery and took me back to the room. Yeah, the baby was me. It was already in the room and family were there and they had already passed around. And because I because it took me a long time to understand why I got postnatal depression cuz I didn't get it the first time. Yeah, yeah. But when I look back, I felt robbed. I felt wrong because I had to have a C section. Yes, I had a fantastic vaginal birth the first time so I just assumed that I was gonna be able to do that again. And she was nine pounds one so I thought well, I heaps of fun. Really. I'm gonna get this one out because she was a lot smaller. But you can't plan a breach. I mean, she just wasn't she was a footbridge. So she had one leg straight and one arm up over her head and went down the side. So she was all over the shot. And if one legged come out first, it was going to be a bit of a catastrophe. They said, so anyway. And then following that, like breastfeeding went, Well, I loved breastfeeding. I mean, I know. I know. There's mums that don't like it but loved it, love, love, loved it. That went well. Then when I got discharged from hospital, I got a urinary tract infection and had a reaction to the antibiotics. And I'm talking a urinary tract infection where I was walking around with an ice cream bucket. Because I literally couldn't get to steps without feeling like I had to pee and I was paying blood and it was pretty hard. So once I got the antibiotics, right, that started to clear up but me it was 10 days old and postnatal depression hit like, like a sledgehammer. Like I was in the fetal position in the laundry on the floor. Just asking for my mom, I couldn't don't don't even give me a baby don't even hand it to me because I'm not interested in even looking at looking at her plus, I had a toddler as well. So my husband called my mom and my mum came in and mum said You know, you've got two kids to look after here, you need to pull yourself together. And, and that was the right thing to say in the moment for mum. But it's probably not what I needed to hear. I wanted, I think I wanted mum to say. And again, I don't want them to think that she did anything wrong. But I think I wanted them to say it's going to be okay. It's just going to be okay. So they're not calling the GP to the house. And anyone that knows Dr. Krause Doctor class came, she was whispering. And I'm like, I'm sobbing and she's whispering so to hear her had to stop crying. And she's kneeling at my feet. And she's got her hands on my knees and and she's, you know, tapping me and she's talking me through it. So I end up back in hospital for seven days. And no visitors just just me and the end the baby and family could come look at the girls and had Cassie and Tony could come but no other visitors. And they sent me she was a clinical psychologist but she was specialized in postnatal depression. So, I've got, I've got my A C section, I've got my urinary tract infection. I've got these these boulders on my chest that are just squirting milk everywhere you feel like a piece of shit. And they send me this blonde blonde bombshell. She walks in and she's stunning. She's got she's got the she's got it all going on. And I'm like, What the fuck. So you think you are not going to be able to help me in any way. Anyway, she was the best thing that ever happened. And I use skills that she taught me then as I still use them today. You know, like, reverse to do lists, you know, you're right, you're right you to do list. But you add the things on at the end of the day that you also did so that you feel like you really achieved at the end of the day. She also taught me she taught me to write a to do list with two things on it, get out of bed and feed everybody. That's it. That was all all I had to do when I went home was get out of bed and feed, just feed everyone, nothing else. And that got me through because I realized who they really were the two, the only two things I needed to do and the most important things and yes, she was amazing. I saw her for quite some time after just doing a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy and just you know how I was talking to myself and I those things and yeah, she got me back on my feet. Yeah, looks are deceiving. She looked amazing, but she had some great skills. Yeah, I know saying that was just how I felt in the moment. But I remember thinking that I remember thinking what? Yeah, what could you send me everyone the actual opposite to exactly. But as far as being a mum, I just, I just loved it. I just loved it. You know, I didn't like it every day. And it wasn't a reflection on my girls, I loved my girls every day, you know, there were days and plenty of milk downs, but in the, the essence of being a mum, I loved it. And I loved. Yeah, I loved. And I just I tried so hard. I remember being very conscious of how I parented my girls, and tried so hard to get it right. And I didn't always because there's no such thing as a perfect mom, or a perfect human being for that matter. But I did my best. And, you know, the, the, you know, for me the the biggest evidence that I that we as parents got something right, is watching them as adults is, is watching them as functional human beings in the community. And hearing other people that have interacted with them tell you that they're beautiful people, or that they did something for them, just out of the goodness of their heart and how amazing that was. And I don't know what to tell the girls when I hear that. Yeah, but I quite often do. And it just, you know, tear up my mom and I have a stray dog syndrome, we call it where we take in people. And we rescue people. Yes. And my mum, like we never knew who was going to be at our Christmas table because Mum and Dad did Meals on Wheels. And they often picked up a stray along the way and we'd love them all. But that's mum and dad were like that. And I think, you know, I was a bore witness to that through my life. Yeah. And I was rescued the animals as a kid, I bought the bird home that had been, you know, clawed by a cat or, you know, whatever. I bought lots of things home that had to go back. Because we couldn't keep more than something you can't walk past something and not do something and not who wants to do that with worms. Yeah, you're in the wrong spot could go back into nails. I know this, you're gonna get eaten up eventually. Because that's the cycle of life. But I feel like you gotta give them a crack. Yeah, you gotta give me exactly what I think you should have seen me and my gardening business. You know you if it was an early morning, mow all the snails. Pick them all up all of them. Yeah. And I had one customer saw me doing one day and she actually she actually told me off, she said, So you're putting them all back. And I'm gonna put snail bait over there. So we you do what you need to do when I'm gone. But I can't run them with my lawnmower. I'm sorry. And I would spend ages because sometimes there's 3040 Snails going across the lawn at seven o'clock in the morning. Now Leah would have to pick them all up in the bucket and put them all over there. That's just me. But that's it was it's yeah, it's not. For me. It's not what my girls have achieved in their work life or, you know, they've all done amazing things. It's who they are as people who they are as human beings and and now that I've watched them parent and they all parent, I've got two that have human babies and one that has had beautiful cat babies. And that all she parents, those cat babies, just like they were here human babies. And they're just they just have beautiful hearts. And um, that's what I'm proudest of. Yeah, I think Well, we did something right to make them to give them that start. They can choose to do whatever they want to do with that, but they've certainly gone on and you know, continued on with that, which makes me happy. Yeah. I love that. That is wonderful. There's one point about it that blindsided me when I became a grandparent for the first time. Yeah. And I realized, probably just to say it now. Yeah. So when my first grandchild was born, all my mum friends that had already become grandparents had sent you just wait, you just wait. You're not going to believe how amazing it is. And I knew it would be amazing. But nothing prepared me for not only how amazing it was, but the emotion had bought up. For the end of an era for me. Yeah, right. And I never ever thought about it. Someone should write a book. Maybe Maybe I'll write a book. But when when she came home from the hospital, and they, they, because COVID hit pretty soon after. So once we got through that, and I was able to then go to the house and be a part of it. I couldn't stay. Because it because it wasn't my it wasn't my turn. It wasn't my baby. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, that was heart wrenching. And I don't know if that makes sense. But it was I knew I knew. I mean, it wasn't delusional. I knew she wasn't my baby. Right? Yeah. But the last time I'd been hands on with a baby, they were my babies. And I got to witness the whole journey. And all I wanted to do was witness the whole journey. But when the realization came that I had to go home, and I couldn't witness the whole journey. It broke my heart. Yeah. Yeah. Because I wanted to watch. I wanted to watch my daughter, parent. Her daughter. Yeah. And I couldn't I couldn't watch it all. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. So I found that really hard. Once I got once I once I realized, and I, and I sort of went through my own emotions. Yeah. It was fine. Yeah, he right. No, didn't expect it out that day. No, it's not. It's all this excitement and happiness. And but it literally is an it is a defined end of, you know, one year at the start of another year, and all the the emotions and they're involved in that transition. Yeah. Because if you can picture to, like, I've got my two hands up facing each other, if you can picture. This was this is my daughter, and this is me. And we're facing each other. Yeah. When when your children have their own children, they turn, they turn around, and they face a different direction. Yeah. And she's still they still turn back. And they're still. I mean, we're, we're very close. We're all very close, I get a lot of phone calls, and I get a lot of sharing and all the things I don't miss a thing. But it's different. It's it's like, okay, well, it's a definite, it's a it's a transition. It goes from, what it's just you, it's just the mother and the daughter. I think maybe it's particularly with mothers and daughters, I would imagine, to, it's now it's now well, you're there, and they'll they'll come to you when they need you. But But you literally have to just stand in the background. And you only get to be a part of what you're allowed to be a part of. Yeah, that makes sense. And like it was a very generous, I'm not making it sound like, you know, they're very inclusive and share so much. I mean, FaceTime, I get FaceTime. And I get all the things and it's amazing. But you really you only get to be a part of what that will enable you to be a part of or what time allows you to be a part of because you're not hands on all the time. That was a really big. Yeah, they were big realizations and very emotive for me. I'm and I'm a very feeling person. I feel deeply. And that was not something I expected to feel at all. Yeah, that's that's a really good point. Yeah, that's a really good point. And you want to be there? Oh, yeah. Like you light up? No, it's not. And I don't mean to tell them what to do. Because they're doing amazing. But just to be just to be there. Again, part of the party for finding your identity again. Yes. Well, now, I have to learn what a grandmother is because I've never been a grandmother. So I have to learn what that means and how I navigate that to how it works for me, but most of all, how it works for them. Yeah, it's always things you don't think I was like, I'm thinking of that. Oh, great. I'm not making it sound like life is a series of lessons. Yeah. And he's always evolving and changing in your learning all the time. You know, you think you think puberty, childbirth, menopause, you think maybe there's just the three men let me tell you, I've, there's there's been a million of those and you just think, okay, are we there yet? Please, I don't need any more details with this one. I know I could be I could. You know, I admire some people for their care and easy, free and easy attitude and they can just You just move on. I'm not that person. Because I feel I just feel everything exactly. And I have what I have to feel it. And I have to go through the whole process to understand it. And if I can't understand it, then I struggle. But once I can understand it and and you journal about it or read a book about it, then I can. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good to go. Do you mind if we talk about the shared experience we had with decluttering? No, not at all. Yeah, it's interesting. As I over the long weekend, no joke would have been 15. Garbage bags full of clothes. Plus, for more, just probably 20 to five more now that I've given to my mom and my sister. And the emotional experience of going through those clothes. I just thought my husband laughed at me because I every now and then I have to break and I was in tears. He's like, What are you doing? I'm like, that this was the when I had the baby. This is what I was, you know, all these boots. Huge, much stuff. And I can't believe the amount of stuff I had stickerless the amount of stuff I had. But yeah, would you mind sharing the experience you had doing that? So I've got a massive wardrobe, but I had a lot in it. And I'm not a hoarder. But I hold on to things that mean something to me or for whatever reason. Anyway, my oldest daughter, Cassie Blissett. And Hart said, when I come home on the long weekend, why would you want me to help you clean out your wardrobe? I said, Sure. Let's do that. And I'm pretty sure Mia was going to be a part of it too. But she had to fly back a day earlier. So she was had already gone home. But as it got closer, I was backpedaling. And I was saying to her, ah, look, honestly, I'll be good. I'll just do it when you're gone. Because I think we're going to run out of time. It's you know, like, want to spend more time with Ali and you know, all the things. She said, I'm not going to make you but I'm happy to do I really love doing that. Anyway, we all end up going to bed. That's her little boy who end up going to bed and we thought oh, now's a good time. So we she said look, let's just take everything out and we'll throw it on the bed. So we took it all out put on the bench. He said you just pick up each item and I'm not going to pressure you just do whatever you want it well some things were an absolute that's got to go that's got to go and I had no problem with those. And then there was a so we had it that's got to go pile. We had a might try that on and just see pile. And then we had a definite that's not because I really love that. So the definitely not going things. Cassie was color coding. And because that's her. She was colored. She she she was a bit visual merchandiser for JJs for many years. So she's got it. I think she was color coding all my clothes as they were going back in the wardrobe. We did we got that all done. And it was some of them. I was holding up and she's shaking her head before I even made her mind up. She's going No. So I took her lead and got rid of it. So then we've got we've got that done. And she she pulled the door closed and the walking robe and I had all my dressing and hang up. And she said, for God's sake, how many dressing gowns does one person need? And I said, Well, that one's my winter one because I like that color. And that one's my winter one because that one collects cat here. Well, now that the cats are outside and don't come inside anymore, I can wear that one. And this is my summer one that short is my summer one that's long. And this one's one that Georgia brought me back from Thailand. And this one's one that you guys bought me for Mother's Day and I can't bear to part with it. She said what about and she said okay, so pick your favorite long one and pick your favorite short one. And I said, like took me ages. I just couldn't. I ended up narrowing it down. And we did that. And she said, What about this skanky? Oh, green thing here. And it's not it's it's just a short telling dressing gown that I absolutely love. And she said, I think I gave this to you. Like years ago. She said, I think we were still I think your dad was still together when I had this. And I said, Yeah, that's right. And I couldn't I could feel the emotion coming up. Yeah. And she said, Well, you don't you'd can't possibly need that now. And she was she didn't realize that I was getting emotional about it. She said you can't possibly need that. Now you got all these other ones that are much nicer. She said, Oh, that's nice, but it's not that nice. And I said I just like to keep it because it means something to me. It's sentimental. And she said I don't I don't understand. Or I just burst into tears because I don't think I understood it myself. And I said to her I think I think it's one of the last connections to our family life. I said because I remember you wearing it when we used to sit in the lounge around Fire. We were watching TV all together, the five of us together. And she said, are really, ma'am. And I said, Yeah. And I said, and you know, I said, I know it's a funny thing to say, but sometimes I put it on. If I'm feeling really flat, I'll wear it. Yeah. And it makes me think of a view. And, you know, it's not like I miss my sight. Like, I want my husband back, saying that it's the vehicle. It's the unit. It's the family unit. And they weren't all bad times. There were some really good times in there. And we wouldn't have been together for 22 years. I said, sometimes I put it on when she said on. And she said, I wished you just said that I wouldn't have pressured you. And I said, Well, you didn't really pressure me, I said, but I would like to keep that one. So then she just lovingly picked it up, and she just hold it back on the, on the coconuts, and I've kept it and you know, probably I may not ever wear it, you know, but I like to, I like to have it because that's what it means. But yeah. How, like how emotion fueled, is addressing again, like, it's crazy. And I didn't realize until it looked like it was gonna go. Yeah. And it's the one warning item that I kept. It's the only thing I kept that that made me really emotional. I got rid of so many. I mean, I don't know how many garbage bags you said, but I think I had eight. I got it all went to the shop. And yeah, and I was I was happy to see them go. Just an add on to that. My beautiful partner. He's He's so hands on when it comes to helping with things. And the next day, I went back into finish off things in there. And I had all the bags all lined up. And he said are how much have you got left to go? And I said, I've just got a couple of things to finish. And I'd really like to take them all together when I'm finished. And he said, Well, how about I just laid all these in the car and take them. And then when you finish the others tomorrow, you can take them and I said Ah, but I really I really am selective about where I want them to go. Because I know where I know which up shop I want them to go to and everything. And he said, Oh, that's right, I can do that. I'll just do that. And I said, ah might just wait till tomorrow. And then when I'm finished and I was trying not to make a big deal. But I will say could see he just wanted to help. And I'm thinking oh, he just wants to help. So I said, Okay, all right. Well, you do that. I think I was a bit huffy. When I said it. I said to you just you just take them then. So he loaded them all in the car. And when he got them all in the car, I thought, I've got one last reason why maybe he'll just bring them all back. So when at the end, I said, I just want to take a photo of them all together. So I could send them to Cass and show her how I ended up. And he said we'll take a photo of him in the car. So I looked at the car, and I said it's not quite the same. And so I just came back inside. So he drove off. And I watched him. Like I watched him drove off and I sat there sobbing on the bed. Because I wanted to do it. It was it was closure for me to do it. And I wasn't going to take anything out and keep anything but it was just closure for me. When he came back. He could see I'd been crying. And he said, what's wrong? And I said, I didn't want you to do that. I wanted to do it myself. And he went anyway, sadly, we had a bit of an argument about it. Because he said you should have made it clear. And I said Well, I'm not going to spell it out like you're five. I said I didn't want you to take him and there was a reason. And he was heartbroken. He had he got really emotional too. He said I wouldn't hurt you for the world. And I said, I know that. And I know you didn't do it to hurt me. And maybe I should have really explained myself. But I said I feel like that's been ripped away from me. And I haven't had a chance to close it. But I got over it the next day, but it was so yeah, so powerful. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I can really I can understand that. Because it's like that last, it's that last act of letting it go. You know, I did that when I put my stuff in the in the funny bin thing. And as I was driving away, I was just bawling. It's like I I wanted this stuff to go. So it's not like oh, yeah, I get that. It's just that. I know that part of my life is truly gone. Yeah, that was exactly what it was. Yeah. Because I had I had other things in there too, like, like yourself that, that I can tell you when I bought them and where I was and all the things and they had meaning. And that's why I wanted to select where they went. I wanted to see where they went. Yeah. And I wanted to be responsible for where they went, Jeremy I wanted it to be me that did it. And and even though he came back and said exactly where he took them and I believe that he did you know I'm not saying that. I just wanted to do what like you did drive away and if I needed a tear I needed a tear and I probably want to do it by myself. Yes. Oh, yeah, I did. My mom was here. Yeah, it's yes. Yeah. And yeah, it was like some of the stuff. I laughed. I thought why if I still got these and then I'd be going oh, I know what I still got this because you know, it reminds me of this. This particular time in my life or whatever. And some things I was so happy to let go of Yeah, I didn't even think twice like you know how you say when you picked it up my daughter said that being before it sort of lifted. I was like oh what am I stupid that for whatever but then other things. Some things are just definite. There's no and even the keepers some things would definitely always keep it even if she said no. Now we say well, I love it. I actually love this and I love wearing it. I feel good when I wear it. So I'm keeping it. I kept stuff that I'll never wear again, but the sentimental value years sentimental like that. Like you're not I don't. I don't my husband would say I'm a hoarder, but I don't think I'm a hoarder. But I think important to me. Yeah. So I've got these jumper jumper that my Nana wore, than I used to wear when I was a kid. So I've kept that I've got a little drawer now we're off. Yeah, I've cleaned out keepsakes. I don't want to pay. Yeah. And yeah, so many things I gave to my mom and my sister because I didn't want to part with. I'd like to still see them in my life. Yeah, so you know where they are. Lovely. But no pressure. I say no pressure. If you don't like it, you know, obviously, but I don't see I can live with that. Yeah, I can give it to someone and say, Look, I'd like you to have it. And if you feel like getting rid of it, just get rid of it. Yeah. Because once I've left it, they're not it's out of control, then yeah, you just want what happens? Yeah. You know, I'm gonna sign him. You have to keep that? Yeah, no, no, no. And I say that to my girls, like I've got, you know, I've got a couple of big tubs of things of my mum and dads that are from their grandpa from my grandparents or from their parents that are out there all wrapped up in some, you know, probably probably some valuable things maybe. But I've shown my girls where they are and what they are. And I've explained what they are. And I said to them, I'm keeping them because it means something to me. Obviously, when I'm gone, I won't know but do not have an ounce of guilt. If you need to take the whole box to the shop. Because they might not mean anything to you. It's another generation or Yes, so don't seem cool. I just don't want them to be saddled with that guilt that that people feel when Sr. But someone gave that to me back in 1927. And I don't want to part with it. It probably doesn't mean anything to them. You know, she found that that reminds me of when grandpa passed away when we're going through his stuff. And you'd find things What the hell is he kept this for? Now? It's obviously very good reasoning. He was more of a hoarder. My Dad Yeah, my dad's got. Yeah, but you know, there's a reason for Yeah, no, yeah. And I sort of felt a little bit like, I should keep this because he was important to him. But then the end of the day, I thought I can't keep everything. There's just so much stuff here. And as it was I took boxes of stuff that I hadn't even done anything with. They're just sitting there because I just couldn't bear to let them go. Yeah, but you know, over time, that might change. You know, it's only been coming up 12 knots. I think, I think from what I saw of Rob's situation when his mom passed away and we we cleaned her house he bought we bought a heap of stuff here and a lot of we had a garage sale or we gave it away or whatever. But there's some stuff that we kept in the shed. Yeah, and bit by bit some of its gone. Yeah, over time. But it's time and I've said that to rob my my parents, there'll be things that I said prepare to clear out half the shed to make room for it when I have to do it for my parents. And I said and over time, I'll whittle it down. But in the moment I'll it'll be a part of them and I'll have to hang on to it. I just won't be able to part with it. So you just have to bear with that. I think that's a it's a process that is part of the morning. I think it is part of the grieving it's it happens stage by stage as you go through. Yeah, absolutely. So what's worse, I'll put all the links to all your socials but we're what's Where do you Where are you most active is like Instagram or Facebook. Where do you like people to get in touch with? I loves Instagram Stories. I've had to cut down my Instagram stories because I think I love your story when you're going from Yeah, but I think I put too many. I think I put too many slides. I'm like I've I do whatever you lost, share them like I'm doing it. But yeah, but people's eyes glaze over. I'm sure that I can probably swipe past most of those, you know, it's who I am. That's the thing. Yeah. Do you do what you like, and then everyone else can sort themselves out I love I love Instagram stories because I feel like I'm a loves telling stories. So I like I like that part of it. I mean, I'm I'm on Facebook and Instagram. So that's pretty much pretty much all I'd like to blog again. But yeah, I don't know. I'd like to blog about so many things. And I've come back to Facebook several times and told everyone Hey, because because I might sometimes I'll write something that's nothing to do with food. It's a life thing because I'm deep in and I like all that sort of stuff. And people love it. Yeah, like, like the response I get from people. I get it. I'll get private messages from all of them. And then I'll come back straight after and Okay. Ah, seems like people really liked that. I'm going to do more of it now like i and publicly announced I'm doing it, then I don't do it. Because then again, I get that whole. Well, really who wants to hear about my grandparenting journey? And how I feel about that? Probably no one, but I think I can see, but I can see who my audience are like that three and a half 1000 people, but I can see how many of them are my age demographic. Yeah. And probably at a similar life stage. And even if they're not, what's going to happen to them do see, it's probably worth talking about. So I often think of doing that. And I think maybe we'll have a separate blog, and I think I want to just do it there. Yeah. If people don't want to, they can scroll by Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Don't read it. If you don't, if it's not your thing, don't read it. Then I feel bad because I've got men in there. And I think I'm always going to speak about women's things. But I'm a woman. yet. I don't know how to talk from a man's perspective. They can start their own blog if they wish I you know, this whole thing with social media. It's like you can think too much about Yeah, I think just do what yeah, maybe I should stop overthinking at you. Yeah, sorry. I'm pointing and everyone else like complete themselves. Yes, what I probably say, because sometimes I feel like sometimes a topic comes into my head, like, like talking about the grandparent thing. And I think I'm gonna write so much about that. Yeah. And, and like a couple of things. I said that you see, you hadn't thought of Yes. Because you haven't had that experience yet. I guess I also don't want. I don't want to get on there and tell a story like that. And people think, Oh, is it does it seem like a wind but anything my stuff sounds like a winch. No, doesn't sound like I like I like to just sharing it a deep feeling or a thought, you know, I really, I really enjoy that. That's how I connect with people. And I think it gives people other people permission to share the same vulnerabilities that I share. I'm very, I'm very, very for that. I think that we don't talk enough about stuff. When it comes to mental health issues. I am all about that, like just got to talk about, because the more we talk about it, the more we talk about it, and it just grows on itself. You know, it becomes not a stigma thing that we're all too scared to mention. It's part of life, and more people would have it than wouldn't mass. You know, it's just gonna say that. Yeah. And I don't anyone that mocks anyone with any kind of mental health issue, mild, severe or otherwise needs to have a look at themselves because it's debilitating. And as I said, people, like, out there, I'm one of the most bubbly, you know, like, that's the thing. It's easy. And I'm not putting that on. I'm like that when I get comfortable. Yeah. But I'm, if anyone's seen the not so great side of me as in, you know, they've, I've not been my best self and my best behavior are probably don't feel comfortable with them. Because when I because when I truly feel comfortable with someone, I'm the most loving, giving, thoughtful, deep, sharing person you could ever meet. But I have to feel comfortable. Yeah. And if if I've got my guard up, I can't be myself. I can't give the best of myself. So it isn't it. And it's sad that I can't do that. But I can't pretend either. I'm very transparent. So I can understand so what's, what's in the future for jazz? Frank? What's here? Oh, if I could claim me. I mean, I'm a grandparent. Now. I think, man, just Frank will, it will be there as long as you know, I can. As my body will stand there and do that as long as people wanting my, my goodies. I'll keep doing it. Because I really, I really love it. And just a little side note to that, I think. I think my business also grew from the perspective that it's we're not empty nested. My just Frank family became the people because that's how I show my love. So I show I love people, I cook for them. If I care about you, you can be sure you're gonna get some food because that's how I look I just add even and it's probably why I want it to be my two hands because anyone that buys my food, you can be guaranteed I love what I do. And I'm usually listening to something amazing while I'm doing it might be a Formula One podcast because I'm a massive fan. Oh my god. Oh, All right, folks, let's not get started that was talking about David Ricardo said the whole thing said I just My heart breaks for him and I and he's such a such a. He's such a beautiful character on on track like he's in the paddock. He's just so loved there. I can't believe that haven't given him a seat. I can't believe it. Just yeah. But anyway, that's another podcast. I'll be talking to you later about that. Next week after the Japan Grand Prix. We'll have a chat about that. Yeah, yeah. So I wouldn't do that. You know, what, you're, it's you it's literally us. It is, and, and my family. My my girls were grown on home cooking. And that's that was part of when I started the business. I just wanted to, like I wanted to keep cooking for other people. I couldn't. I literally stopped cooking when I have done nested because when I was looking when when there were no children around, it was hard to cook for one. Yeah. So I just cooked something random for myself. But I stopped baking, I stopped making all these beautiful things that my kids used to have, of course, then the girls went through there were watching our Wait, man, we can only have two biscuits, not the whole jar, you know, whereas back then they gobble them up, not have to make some more. But yeah, that's, I mean, so anyone, anyone listening that buys my food for my family. That's, that's why I do it is I love it. I love it. And I'm meant to, someone told me once it was actually Maurice Dickens from I said to He wants us I can't keep up with like the range of stuff that I've got. And he said, narrow it down to your pick your top five, and narrow it down to that. Now also anyone that's listening that sees how many products I have out there, I think I think there's about 35 different things that I make and counting. Because Because Tony, Tony Verona so so she would message me say we're the shelves that their mother hubbard shows up there, we need some more goodies. She doesn't she doesn't order, it doesn't tell me what she wants. So I just go, right, had this idea. I reckon that fudge that they would be great dipped in chocolate with more chocolate drizzled with grated chocolate on the top. So then I'll just come up with the 35 goes to 36. So I've got and of course, I have to put all these in the computer for my invoicing system. So I can see how many there are. So I just keep using my imagination and making new things. So on that all the recipes are your own, that you tweak or people come up with. Yeah, you asked Rob, they're just things that I come up with come in there. And he'll say, so what are we making today? And I'm not sure yet. Not quite sure yet. And most of them aren't written down, which I've just started to document them. Sorry, for because what it is, it is pretty funny. If you're not, maybe you're going to sell your business one day. But one day if I'm going to sell the business, and I and and someone says okay, so what are you selling up sell what's all in here? It's all in my head. They can't sell that. And besides that, I mean, if I don't sell the business, and my girls want to do something with it, I'm going to give it to them. And they might decide to do something with it. And I need to have them written down. So I've just started to do that. So yeah, so if you buy something, and I mean, actually, having said that there are the things that I package are written down. But like these things aren't written down. So if you do happen to buy the rocky road, and it tastes different one day than the next Can I tell you a funny story. I just sent the Biscoff rocky road to Adelaide. And when I was cutting it up ready to box it I realized I hadn't put the almonds in. Ah, so I rang. I message him and I said I've boxed it all up and it's on its way but just be prepared. There's no harm in doing this. I think it's because everyone was home and I had had my kitchen door shut and I was working in there but I could hear everything going on. I'm like I just want to get this done because I want to get back to being with the family. There's no elements in that one. There's extra biscuits because when I was mixing I thought I don't know what's going on. He doesn't seem like there's enough. So I had an extra biscuit. So it's really crunchy but just not with almonds. Sorry about that Adelaide. So yeah, so I'm not sure what's next. Um, I'm just doing what I'm doing. Loving doing what I'm doing and while people are still wanting me to do it, I'll keep doing it. That's awesome. Would it be fair to say, I'm just taking the liberty here? There's anyone that's listening that's interested in veganism or vegan lifestyle. Would you be happy to chat? 2%? And as I said, very, I'm very, you know, fluid with all of that I, everyone's got to start somewhere. I mean, I didn't go vegan overnight. Yeah, it wasn't a cold turkey thing. So I get the transition. And I can certainly give people plenty of tips on how to add, just add a few meals or I mean, there's no end of recipes out there. Yeah, I mean, you've just got a Google vegan curry, vegan anything. And you'll find some recipes. But yeah, I'm more than happy. And if anyone wants to talk about the ethical side of it. I'm pretty passionate about that topic. Yeah, I just don't. I just don't go there a lot. Because not everyone wants to hear that. Yeah. But if someone wants to, you will share 100% Yeah, absolutely. I'm always open to that inbox me, you know, my phone numbers on all my products on the label. So call me message me whatever. I need say, Yeah, of course, I'm always and I've done a fair bit of that over the years, I've done a, you know, talk to a lot of people about that kind of thing. I mean, I've, I've wanted to get back to doing another talk at the library at some time. It's something like that would be fun. Not necessarily about that, but maybe a cooking, you know, like a cooking demonstration where we can just casually chat at the same time. You know, I know the library's open to that. So that's if that's something that's interesting to people and they'd like to do that. Perhaps give me a yell or comment on your on the podcast post or whatever. And yeah, we can organize that too. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. I've really loved it. love chatting with you. And thank you for your honesty and your openness and your vulnerability. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much to thank you for your goodies which have made a hole in we can take the rest time if you're lucky you have your everyday thanks, Alison. Thank you

Andrea Rees Australian mixed media visual artist + creativity coach S2 Ep47 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts My guest today is Andrea Rees, a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East Corrimal, NSW, and a mum of 2 boys. Originally from Vancouver, Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20 to study mixed media, her main mediums being photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating Andrea spent 4 years in advertising in account management. After realising it was not filling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher. After her 2nd son was born, ongoing health concerns meant that the ongoing level of support that he needed guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art, and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for mums who are searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through, who lost themselves in their motherhood, and can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chat about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her first child and the joy Andrea takes from supporting other mums. And the ever popular topic, the value we as society place on art, and the people who make it. **This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD and a childhood chromosome disorder** Andrea links / Instagram / Creative Village Facebook page Podcast website / Instagram MakeShift Creative See the painting my son Digby helped me complete When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. It really is a pleasure to have you here. My guest today is Andrea Reyes. Andrea is a mixed media artist and creativity coach from East caramel in New South Wales, and she's a mom of two boys. Originally from Vancouver in Canada, Andrea left for Australia at the age of 20. To study mixed media, her main mediums been photography, painting, drawing and ceramics. After graduating, Andrew spent four years in advertising in account management, after realizing it was not feeling her creative cup enough. Andrea did further study and became a high school art teacher after his second son was born. Health Concerns meant the ongoing level of support he needed, guided Andrea to make the decision to return to her art and the next phase of her life began. Andrea is also a coach for moms who are seeking and searching for their creativity. She wants to help and support mums who went through what she went through those who have lost themselves in motherhood, they can find themselves again through art and creativity. Today we chatted about trusting our mothering instincts, how the urging from a friend turned her life around after having her fifth child. And the joy Andrea takes from supporting other moms and the ever popular topic, the value where society plays on it, and the people who make it. This episode contains graphic descriptions of birth stories, birth trauma, PTSD, and childhood chromosome disorder. Welcome to the podcast today, Andrea, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're in Sydney. Yes. So your accents, not from Sydney. We're events. So originally, I'm from Vancouver, Canada. And I've got an Australian father and a Canadian mom raised me in Vancouver. And then when I was 20, I took off and finished my degree of Visual Arts at Sydney Uni and just wanted to do something different. So yeah, that's it. Awesome. So you mentioned visual arts tell us what you do what you create. So I'm a mixed media artist. And I'm also a coach for moms who want to find their creativity. So my main medium is photography and painting. Drawing. And my major at uni was ceramics. So I really love ceramics, but it's just a bit of a harder medium to work with when you don't have the equipment. And it's kind of like a three stage process. So yeah, it's a lot more a lot more. More complex. That's why I think I've fallen really into photography and stuff because it's much more accessible and workable in motherhood. Yeah, for sure. So let's go back to the beginning. How did you first get into all these different types of creative? Oh, I guess I'm just through high school and my parents put me in ceramics from the age of 10. Just in our neighborhood. There's a lady who was doing it out of her garage, a mum and yet I did some workshops like a raccoon horse and stuff like that when I was young, just loved clay and then went through to college and like, just before and to uni and and yeah, you you do your foundational year where you kind of have a try of everything and yeah, I just really loved photography and in high school I just I loved the darkroom so much. And yeah, I was really fortunate that we had one in our school and yeah, I think it just sort of just developed it definitely was just a creative kid. And like, I remember days when it would be raining and mum would pull out like a paint by number set for me. And I just work on it at the dining table. And I just loved that sort of thing. So yes, over the years it kind of built and built and yeah, then yeah, did my degree and yeah, I just really, yeah, I loved ceramics at Sydney, uni. And, yeah, it was just, it was just really unfortunate. When I came out of there. I just had this concept in my head because I did clay that why can't do it now. Because I don't have the money. I don't have the materials. I don't have the equipment. So what am I going to do? So I kind of Yeah, stepped away for it for many years, which was now I look back and I think that's so sad. I lost so many years not being able to create. Yeah, but I think with everything you you create, like, everyone's creative, and I think you you express your creativity somehow, some way, you know, and I probably that's when I probably fell more into photography, because it was accessible. And I could use it all the time. Hmm, yeah. Did you sort of decide you were going to make a life with art, I suppose that it was going to be what you did? Mmm hmm. Yeah, I just kept coming back to it. And so after uni, I because I had this idea in my head that I couldn't continue with ceramics. I was like, you know, I'm an adult. I'm in the big world, like, how am I going to make money and but I still obviously, I'm interested in the arts. So I went into advertising, and I sort of fell into account management. And it just was not filling my creative cup enough. It was very administrative. And I liked working with the designers and stuff. But even a lot of them were really like, not super, you know, they they just said it was kind of making art for other people. It was what they wanted. Even the end decision was like the clients choice, obviously, some so they could be really creative with it, but it usually didn't fly. So yeah. So yeah, so I left advertising after four years. And then I decided to sort of my husband and I were going to settle down. So we moved down this way from Sydney. And then I studied at Wollongong, uni and did my Graduate Diploma of education. So became a high school art teacher. So yeah, that was kind of always my dream. And like growing up, I always thought I would be a great teacher. And yeah, it was I was kind of making that happen now. So I was at a good time in my life where you were going to start a family and stuff, and I thought this will be a good job for me. Yeah, but yeah, it's just funny, like just reflecting back and thinking about it, that there's just such a, you know, an idea in society that arts just not like the pathway to go for stability. And, you know, which is just so sad, because now being on the other side of that, I think it's totally up to you, like you're fully in control of making that happen. So yeah, it's just I think you just feel really unsupported along that journey. In Yeah, in society. So. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, you say that a lot of conversations I've had lately with mums have been around the value, and I mean, monetary value that we place on the arts. And a lot of it sort of has become really evident, I think with the shutdowns through the COVID time, like, all the footy clubs going and all the footy players were traveling across the borders, but there were all these restrictions, so no one could put on their shows like, you know, visual artists, performance, anything like that all shut down. It's like, well hang on a minute, like, every time you turn the radio on or the TV or, you know, you're watching a streaming service, everything's been made by a Creator by an artist and it's, I think it I hope people sort of woke up to that. People on the other side of the You know, yeah, the value of the arts in society is actually so huge. And it really makes our, it allows us to connect. It really makes our world like so much more interesting than if. Yeah, like, we went through a period of like two years where we just locked it down and how sad and people really, you know, struggled and suffered in that time. Like, just even just live music. Like, I don't think I realized how much I enjoyed going to live music and I'm not like a huge live music. You know, follower. I don't kind of, you know. Yeah. But, um, but I definitely, yeah, I enjoy it. And when bands come to town and stuff for gigs, yeah, play locally. Like, I love live music. So yeah, yeah. It's been an interesting time. Do you have an eye opener? So you've got some children? Can you share a little bit about them? Yes. So I've got two boys. So yeah, I think this is when my, like, I came around to my art and creativity was actually from motherhood. So my first boy is five years old now. So he's just starting kindergarten this year. So I feel like it's developing more and more as they grow up. But yeah, he's off to school. And my youngest is three now. So he's at daycare this year, three days a week. So he was two days last year. So yeah, it's exciting, because I'm just getting a little bit more time where I can do awesome stuff like this, and coaching and work on creating and art shows and stuff like that. So yeah, it's exciting. What's developing? Hmm. So going back to when maybe when it wasn't, so I wouldn't say exciting. I have so much time. How did you go? Sort of continuing to be able to create when you Oh, first child? Yeah. So um, I guess. So with my first child, I had a, I had a great pregnancy, like, I thought I was gonna be a really, I wasn't gonna thrive as a pregnant woman. But I actually just have absolutely loved it. I really enjoyed being pregnant my first time. But then I ended up having a traumatic birth and I had a really bad birth. So that was just, I think, such a shock to my husband and I, what we went through, and just such a poor start to parenthood. And then he had a lot of complications like reflux and food intolerances and that sort of thing. So we struggled, like in that first year, a lot just trying to survive. And then I really lost myself, I just thought the way to go with motherhood is like you devote your you know, just, you know, devote yourself to your kid, and, you know, give them everything you've got. And yeah, really depleted myself and lost my identity. And then it actually was a friend, another art teacher, an artist and a teacher, who I studied with, and we've worked together and stuff since that, she kind of approached me and was like, there's this art show coming up. I really think like, You should do it with me. And I was just like, oh, no, I can't do that. Like, oh, I think it was like, in three months time or something. And she was like, Yeah, you, you know, you could easily, you know, work on this on the weekends or something. And she just talked to me realistically, like, kind of make making these excuses that she doesn't have children. And I kind of thought, Oh, you don't know, because you don't have kids yet or what it's like, but what she was saying was making a lot of sense. Like I was just making these excuses. That completely didn't make any sense. And so I said, Yeah, you're right, actually, I could, I could go and photograph that. And then I could, you know, I could get it printed, and then I could start to put it on to it was plywood that we were working on. And I could probably lay that down and she offered to come and help me and everything. She was so supportive, great friend. And I thought Yeah, I can do this. Like I can totally do this. And then I ended up Yeah, I just I was so blown away by the result I got that I was so excited by it. And I felt amazing. Like through the process, I was like, This is me this is like, I've found myself again. And like, I was just, yeah, so happy that I was still mothering and but yet I was creating and being myself and I had this like, wonderful balance. And so after that, I entered another show, and I ended up making us at all, I'll just do one artwork again. And then I ended up producing for it was so that was great. I really loved it. Yeah. And then that's kind of been the way I've just continued. And she's been there along beside me saying, you know, what do you think about this? Like, should we enter this again? And yeah, she's been such a wonderful friend they fell pregnant again, we kind of got to a stage where we felt like things were manageable and easier. And, and yeah, we our son was kind of at the age where we wanted to add our second child, we wanted to have two kids. So we had our second child, that pregnancy was okay. Not as easy as the first but it was okay. birth was completely controlled planned, Cesar, because we were just so terrified of something happening again. But then, probably three months after he was born, we started realizing that he had a lot of complications, health concerns and stuff. And he wasn't thriving, and was so confusing, and really, really difficult time. And basically, it went on and on every month, there was something new going on. Something new popped up. That wasn't good. And you Yeah, I kind of had seen so many specialists and doctors and talked to so many people and everyone kept telling me to, you know, stop worrying and that you're you know, he'll he'll catch up because he was delayed and stuff. And all these red flags that were going off there was saying Don't worry about it, you know, it's nothing, nothing severe or anything. And anyway, by a year and a half, and neurologists said to me, you've kind of exhausted every avenue and do you want to do genetic testing? And I said, Yes, I want to do genetic testing, if that, you know, confirms anything. And so sure enough, it came back that he's got a chromosome disorder. So yeah, that was kind of like a huge relief, a bit, you know, difficult as well. But we finally had an answer to what was going on. And yeah, so he's got he's got some difficulties physically and mentally and like growth wise and stuff like that. So yeah, it just kind of then I kind of had all my answers. And I knew what I was dealing with what I was working with and going, Okay, this is going to change now because I don't think like I had returned to teaching. After having my first and in between there. I was also starting to teach art workshops and stuff with a company locally here called makeshift creative. So they, yeah, connect, like creative people in the community with the community. And so I was teaching art workshops, and I was entering art exhibitions and getting back into my art while raising my first son. And then I returned to work had my second son, and then I just could not get back to work. And I was like, Everyone kept saying, you know, when are you going to return and I wasn't, like coping very well. So people were kind of pushing that because they thought that might be good for me, I think, because I'm definitely someone who, yeah, I was happy to go back to work at like eight months with my first. Um, so then yeah, I just couldn't get back there. So then I decided, You know what I've got to, like, rethink this because I think going back to a high school setting and trying to teach art as well as like, my son is he goes to, you know, our sorry, speech therapy, physiotherapy, occupational therapy and music therapy. We take him swimming, so he's in a lot of things and it's kind of like a part time job in itself just working with him and stuff. So yeah, supporting him, so I just couldn't kind of return to that. So that's when I was like, I'm gonna start a business And art is definitely what I want to work in, like, definitely my passion. So yeah. And it's taken me that in itself has been like a year long journey of just discovering what exactly is it that I want to do? So I've kind of come all the way around and said, I want to help like moms who went through what I went through who kind of lost themselves in their motherhood. And I definitely feel like there needs to be more support for moms. And yeah, I'm just, I coach them and help them get back to their creativity find their creativity, or even moms who've never been kind of creative, and they see the benefit in it, because it's so important. So yeah, that's awesome. That is so great. Yeah. I love that. So long winded but no, no, no, no, that's so good night. I think that's just so wonderful. Because you're right there isn't there? Isn't anyone out there? I mean, you are now but there's no, I mean, like your friend said to you, like, there's no, like, it's not a formal thing that people go, right. Okay. So this is what happened. But now you can do this, and have you thought about this, or, or try this, or, you know, you're essentially taking on that role of the person that can. And because you've got that, you know, perspective yourself, you know, how hard it is, you can sort of see all the, the barriers, I suppose, and then just break them down and go. Yeah. A lot of my coaching is actually, like, it's, it's, it works on your thoughts. It's not, it's not strategy, like you should be doing this. Like, I'm not going to tell you, hey, what worked for me was entering art exhibitions, that got me back to my creativity. It's actually like, all mindsets. And it's like even looking back at my uni days, and when I left, like, I literally put my art down and walked away from it for probably, like, 15 years, like, like, serious artmaking for so long of my life, which is now I just feel so sad that that happened. And it was just a mindset thing that I was like, I can't I can't do this anymore, because I'm not at uni, and I don't have a job to like, support it, or I can't be successful with this and make money from it. Which actually, there's there's definitely, you know, that's just the thought that I had that stopped me from creating. Hmm. Which is the thing if you had had someone like, yeah, so yeah, actually, have you? Yeah, yeah. So that's why I feel like coaching is so important. And I meet with coach, so after this time, meet with my coach on a Tuesday. And, yeah, I have an hour session with her and she helps me with my business and, and supporting those moms. So yeah, I think it's such important work. It's, it's really, and it's all that kind of self care work. Like you're investing back into yourself. And like I yeah, basically, I create my art from, you know, the work I do with coaching and with, like, the work that my friend did for me, you know, that all came from that kind of work. So, yeah, that's so important. I think that's so great. Honestly, it feels like in a way, like you received that help, and you're sort of paying it forward. Yeah. You're, you're giving other moms the tools that you were able to gain? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So just basically taking, like what I've learned from my own experience, and then, yeah, helping other moms with it, who might be dealing with the same sort of thing can relate and stuff. So yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's really not, there's not too much of it out there. You know, like, it's kind of Nishi like, it's a little bit. Yes, specific, but I think it's really important. And I think, yeah, there's lots of mums. So and there's a whole range, like, there's moms who, you know, were quite successful before and have lost themselves completely, or there's, you know, moms who've never done it before. And they're like, Wow, I really like I love the benefits that she's getting from this. Like, I might have a go at art or some that are like, I used to love it in high school. I've had lots come to art workshops and say, you know, I've, I loved it in high school, and I've just never gotten back to it again. And I'd like to now in my motherhood like I would like to have a go again. Yeah. Is it really it's so important to have something for yourself, isn't it? Yeah. Away from your role as a mother? Yeah, that's been a huge like realization. I've got a five and a half year old it saved me five years kind of come around to the fact that actually, it's so important that my husband have his he's a surfer. And now he's just gotten really after at the end of COVID. He's gotten we live between the ocean and the escarpment. And so he's gotten really into downhill mountain biking. Right now he's kind of got the two to use, you know, if one's not good, or something like that. Appropriate. So, um, yeah, like, I think before I was very much like your father, now you need to be a dad and be here, you know, 24/7 and devote everything to your children. And actually, that just burns you out. And then you're completely useless. And that's not healthy for your kids, either. To see parents like that, you know, just and upset and create, like, you will burn out and then it will come out in other ways, you know, so absolutely. It's just not healthy for a family unit to just be kind of, it'd be like, in a relationship, like just living and working and everything together and never having a break. Like you need that break to miss, you know, the other person and then come back and be, you know, completely full and giving. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? And that's the thing too, like, if you've had a lot of moms I've spoken to, they've been artistic their whole lives. Yeah. And even when they got married, one of my, one of my previous guests, Sammy Lange said to her husband, just before they got married, you know, this is what I do. I'm not gonna all of a sudden start cleaning the house. And the same thing happens when you become a mom. It's not like all of a sudden, you go, Well, I'm gonna forget all that thing. That thing that I loved my whole life. I'm just that part of me is gone. Now. Now I have to be on, you know, certainly for a portion of time, that might be the case. Because you know, early, early babies are like, the babies. Yeah, the first, you know, few months is incredibly demanding. So yeah, challenging to find even the time to sleep, let alone do something for yourself. But as time moves on, it's like that part of you is still there. It's just a matter of sort of getting back to it, I guess. Yeah. I think like, she was so I think, wow, because she was so emotionally mature at that age, like at that time to be able to recognize that because I didn't, I was like, well, here I go. Like, I'm into the next stage of my, my life. And like, I'm becoming a mother. And this is who I'm going to be now. Like, you can't Well, for me, it was a very confusing period where I just didn't know what I was doing a whole I was I felt like, kind of, yeah, I was out of control life was happening to me, not like I wasn't in control of it, kind of so now I've realized that actually, you can do whatever you want. You have full control of everything. And but yeah, like, wow, for her that she's just been able to do that right from the get go. And she made that a priority. It's taken me like, a long time to realize that and make it a priority for myself. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, it happens, isn't it? And I guess, it depends how you've grown up what your, you know, your role modeling was like, from your parents about, you know, what was what value was placed on what I suppose? Yeah, we're also different, aren't we? Yeah. But I think it's so important to spend that time becoming conscious and aware of that, and like, figuring that out, and realizing how that impacts you. And yeah, recognizing your, your own individual, you know, upbringing and, and the person you become and then you're in full control of changing that and, you know, controlling your future moving forward. So take that and then consciously choose like what you want to do. Yeah, your future. Yeah. So you raise your kids right. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, isn't it? Because they're watching like, you know, they're observing what's going on around them and yeah, even at such a young age, and like you said before, we you know, if you burnt out you know, you start to get impatient and you you know, your relationships suffer like the kids they see and feel all of it so, oh yeah, it's so important, isn't it? Yeah. So identities a big thing, be yourself and feed them Moms who code What about mum guilt? Is that something that sort of comes into it as well, that idea that moms shouldn't be doing something for themselves? They should be mums. Or? Well, I yeah, I thought about this. And I think we all suffer from Mum guilt, like, must be in US innately. But I would say I probably I probably suffer less than average, like, I definitely I am constantly. Yeah, looking for ways to you know, get a break, or that sort of thing. See my husband, he works interstate, every week, he travels around Australia. And so there's like three nights a week where I'm on my own. Luckily, I've got my parents, they've moved here from Canada, eight years ago, and they live like five minutes up the road from me. I don't know how I would do this. Yeah, without having my parents nearby. They've been such great support. And through all, like, the medical journey we've been on with our youngest and stuff, so. Yeah, so I'm always looking for things that I can, you know, a weekend away or like, a night away, or like a workshop to attend or? Yeah, where can I get go for like, a float or like, a massage or just for Yeah, bushwalk I can go and do or friends where I can catch up with like, ways that I can fill my cup. So I'm, yeah, I feel like I don't have enough of that stuff. I need to always that's a constant work is trying to make sure I'm taking a break. And when I get it, I like I'm out. I don't find home and check in or night or anything like that. Like I'm like, switched off. I'm enjoying it for as much as possible. Because yeah, I just know that when I'm back, you know? Um, yeah, it's just all about mom like 100% Yeah, so I don't tend to get to about a mum guilt. I guess you kind of like, you kind of have moments where you look at it. Well, for me, I look at it like big picture. And you know, the time flies with kids growing up and you think, yeah, I guess you kind of reflect and say, you know, did I do enough of that? Or did I do enough of this? Or, like, you know that I missed out on that or something like that. So I think that mom guilt kind of creeps in and yeah, but I think I don't know I'm I try to be pretty compassionate with myself and say, like, you're doing a bloody good job. And you know, like, cut yourself on Slack. You've got a lot on your plate. So um, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I feel for the moms like that's, that's why I'm doing the work. I'm doing feel for the moms too. But that's my art art workshops are a big part of that and getting the moms out of their house. My art workshops are minimum three hours, because I might you need three hours, don't need an hour and a half. Like, you know, you need three hours to walk out a home to connect with other moms, other women to really get into the art and relax and be you know, in the moment, being mindful and like, yeah, just filling your cup for a good three hours and then returning home, you know, and that's healthy for the carer who's on the other end to have that time with the kids too. And for the kids to have that time with the the other partner or carer you know, to? Yeah, to be to be taken care of by someone other than mum or, huh. I think that's something we forget to it's like they have relationships with other people. Yeah, they need to have the time to build on them as well. Like, yeah, I mean, maybe I'm saying that to justify it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they make time with other faithful. Yeah, my boys are really good with everybody else. They go to other people. They Yeah, they happily have, you know, they'll go for a sleepover or something with their cousins or, like, yeah, they're really good like that. And I think that's probably just how we've been raising them. Yeah, maybe. You're listening to the odd thing I'm gonna ask you a question. Yeah, that wasn't on the list. So I'll give you some time to think about it. If I just just as we've been talking, I just wondered what in your experience with your coaching what is like the biggest issue or the biggest? Yeah, I guess It's an issue that stops me from creating or holds them back from creating. Um, I would say, I think, initially, everyone thinks that it's time. Or it's energy. That they don't have enough time as a mom more time poor. Or we're tired, you know, we're exhausted. Surely I can't take on something else like, but that's not what arts about, like my creativity, I should say. Because when I say creativity, I'm talking like the mums I help can be anyone from you know, just like the moms you interview from singers and musicians, to writers to artists. So yeah, I think we think that we're kind of time poor, and we don't have time to take this on. But yeah, it's actually adding to you it's not like something that is meant to be more work, it's meant to be enjoyable and a break, and then it feels your carbon gives back to you to your mothering. So, um, yeah, I would say that's probably a big one. But that's what I kind of worked through them with their thoughts is that, you know, we use time kind of as like an excuse. But is it really time? Or is it actually something deeper than that? So we kind of work on that deeper level of what's really what what are you really thinking in your head? What's really, what's the fear there that's kind of holding you back from from doing this, you know, whether it's creating your art or it's sharing your art, you know? Yeah. Are you doing things like procrastinating? Or are you being a perfectionist about it like, so it's more that sort of? Yeah, thought work, then. Yeah, any of those kind of surface level excuses? Yeah. Do you find people feel? And I'm just saying this from the feedback I've had, when I've chatted to other mums? Does the some of them feel like what they're doing will be judged as being a bit of fluffing around and not that important? So it's like, what are you doing that for? sort of thing? Is that just coming into it a bit? I yeah, that definitely comes into it, I think. Yeah, that's just, yeah, you're always going to have I think people around you who have their own thoughts about art, and that's, you know, might come from society's value of art. But yeah, everyone's got their own thoughts and values. And so you just have to kind of think that's fine, that's your thoughts, but that they're not mine. And I'm not going to take that on, I'm not going to kind of let that affect me. But it is hard, because that can be someone like your partner, or it can be like a parent or something like that. So somebody who you really want for support, or you really think or your support team can actually be kind of not the people you should go to, to get to seek support from for this sort of thing. So yeah, I think again, just being conscious and knowing, like, yeah, being aware of what's kind of around you and being selective as to what you take on and what are your own values? And what are your own thoughts? And yeah, and running with those and not sort of letting? Letting? Yeah, other thoughts kind of influence? Yeah, yeah. And I guess then being sort of, like you said, the people that perhaps you shouldn't go to for this sort of stuff, like seeking out those people that are your tribe, I suppose. Yeah, he's not ready. But you know, what I made the paper that are on the same page that will support you and give you the confidence that you might be needing Exactly. So my girlfriend is definitely like someone I would go to, who supported me when I was with my first child, I would go to her for, you know, a bit of a boost or some feedback. But I have made a Facebook group for this because I've found that this is something that's kind of missing is like that community support of other like minded women. So we can, you know, in there, we can encourage each other or ask for feedback or, you know, just talk about different topics or struggles that we're kind of going through or even sharing just our motherhood challenges that are happening. So it's really niche. Nishi kind of like, what we're dealing with, is really specific that other people can't kind of relate to so there's, there's certain aspects that people do and that's great. Um, I'm glad that kind of helps. But yeah, it is it is quite specific. What we need need that community that network for so yeah, I've got a Facebook page called Creative village. So it's like, you know, your village, but creatively it takes a really? Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, I'll put a link in the show notes for anybody that's, that's keen. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that are. And I'll certainly be checking it out. But yeah, when you're talking before about this, like, you know, it might be your partner or your, your parents or maybe parents in law that no, don't see the value I just want to reflect on there was an experience with a mum that I interviewed, I think last season, who's the parents in law were babysitting the dog? There was like, the hammer square, but they would, because she's the daughter in law, right? So she's not like number one. So the daughter was getting the child babysat by these grandparents, because she was going to work. Yeah, but then the grandparents didn't want to babysit the other child, because the mom was just making her art. Yeah, it was like, they didn't value in that at all. And that's like, ah, it just makes you just so cross, you know, that. I know, everybody's different. And I shouldn't judge people, but it's hard not to see, like, how devalued that that mum would feel. Yeah, you know, by that one person saying, Oh, well know what you're doing isn't worthy enough. It's not real work. Yeah. And that's just like demoralizing. So having people around you that can go? That That's a load of crap. support you? Yeah. So important. Really, that's really tough. Because it would that would have an impact on you. And you would probably question, you know, what is this a waste of time or something like that? You're like, you, you get all these thoughts coming to you about like, that are coming from that. And you know, so? Um, yeah, I think just being really strong on what you value and what's important to you what you need is so is so important. And then yeah, finding the right people around you that can kind of support you. Like, when I the last art exhibition, I entered, it was a still life show. I'm still like prize, I ended up painting. Like, I just paint around the house. So I just painted on my back. Entertaining table, like my dining table, outdoor dining table was beautiful as like, sunny, we yeah, we were really lucky with the weather. And the kids just want to get involved. And I've talked to other artists, moms who they've got like a studio in their home and that sort of thing. And they say the kids come in and out like all the time and that's so beautiful to for, for, you know, the kids to grow up in the studio and to be around that creativity and value that growing up like, Yeah, I think there is a bit of a balance there between, like having your own space to focus and stuff. Certain work requires that like this, for example, with the kids in the background, but like, yeah, if you can involve them and have them working beside you like some there's an artist that I follow. Um, I can't remember her name now. Um, she gets her she's quite famous in Australia, and she gets her daughter to work on her paintings, like, and they're in galleries and everything. And they're beautiful. And it's so no, I think more of that needs to kind of happen with Yeah, with with artists, moms that just it just adds that layer into like artists mom's work that for sure. Yeah. You know, I think that's, I think that's so cool. I would love to do that. At one point. If I can get my boys involved in my work. That would be amazing. I'm just trying to see if I've got it. I can't see where it is now. But I did. I'm not I like to paint just to fluff around because yeah, my main thing is singing and writing music and stuff. But I love I love fluffing around with brushes and stuff. It's just I just feel really nice when I'm flowing. So I did this, this like it's all abstract, mostly fuel Watercolor, I'm getting better at making flowers. But it's Yeah, practice my gosh, it's practice in that. Yeah, yeah, I have the patience for it. But I did this big abstract bits and bobs. And then I gave it to my six year old and said, and gave him my pastels and said, he goes, you finish this off, and I look at it. And it's like, I would never thought to do what he's done. Like, it's so kids look at their creativity. And it wasn't like he'd even I think I can't remember how he described it. But like it was his idea of whatever this thing was, he tried to represent it. So he's gone. I'm going to draw this thing. And he just tried to draw that to me. It just looks like amazing marks on the page. It just looks so cool. I'm like Digby, that looks that looks like a proper art now thank you for your I didn't touch I couldn't have done that. Because I'm a lot of my create my art stuff is like, I've got to get it to look the way I want it to. And because I can't do that because I don't have the skills. I just end up getting frustrated when I'm digressing. I wanted to talk a bit more about your own art that you create in your photography and such. Yeah, what sort of things influence your work? Well, I'd say, like, when I first started, I was, I would say I was more influenced by making art that people would buy. I think that's a big thing. Artists kind of deal with is like, making Yes, stuff to sell or just expressing themselves and working. And I would say like if I was in, if I had more, yeah. If I had more time, it's just kind of funny. But I'm like, because I do the coaching and I do my art making my art making is really like a I wouldn't even say part time like It's like quarter time because I've got you know, parenting and then my coaching. And so anyway, if I was like a full time artist, and I wanted to do that full time, like I would think that I would be in a studio for a long time. And I would be you know, just spitting out artwork that I wanted to express and how I was feeling and that sort of thing. But when I'm making for exhibitions, there's usually like a theme I'm working with, or Yeah, like, or in the beginning, I was thinking a lot about what would people want on their walls. So I was making things more about and I used to be really into because I grew up in Canada. And then I moved to Australia, I was really interested in landscapes and that kind of like the juxtaposition of the two. And yeah, that I just really love both, even though they're so different. So I did a lot of landscape stuff. But now I'd say the most recent show, I did the still life prize, it was all about motherhood and I'm really interested in starting to yeah, really, I obviously value that so much. It's such an important part. To me. It's really like the most important thing in my life that's happened to me is what I've gone through and becoming a mum. So I really want to express that more and just yeah, it's just not in society. It's just not spoken about enough. And it's there's not enough awareness about what what happens. So I think using art as a medium to express that is awesome. So that's probably what I'll be doing more of the next pieces I do. Yeah, will be more about motherhood and hopefully I can get to a place where I start to, you know, work through I get to express like my experience of my motherhood, like the trauma from my first birth and complications that I've gone through with my second son so yeah, we'll see how it goes. You know, like right now? Yeah, a lot of us feel really helpless. And you know how, as a mom at home with my kids, can I help like what's going on in the world, but really, that work is so important. Like, we wouldn't have, you know, a Putin out there right now if, you know, there was a different upbringing, or that's an incredible way of looking at it. So important, our work was really valuable, really important and, you know, doing that work of whatever you whatever way you parent, your parenting style, but mine's probably more like gentle parenting. So, yeah, all that work you put in as a mom with your kids is you're bringing the future, you know, generation of people into this world. And that's really, really important. evety Like maybe if Putin did a bit of art like right, maybe I bet he was stifled every now. He wasn't even allowed to get out. Or anything. She was like that you're not doing it? So this is Charlotte Conde who was one of my guests in season two. And she said as mothers were asked to raise human beings and also contribute to society, as if those two things were different. Yeah. It's like, yeah, yes. It's like, what we're actually doing is CRISPR is still messy. You have to know you have to contribute to society. It's like what we Yeah. Seriously, motherhood? Just just, yeah, there's just this. Yeah, this there's no clear idea about what it is or what it what it does or anything. And yeah, I think this is such a different perspective. Like before you become a mom on what it's going to be like and what to expect. And you know, and you just think, like, that's why my husband and I were in such a shock when we had our, our first because no one told us that that was gonna be a possibility or like, yeah, that we were gonna have a tough year or anything like that, like we thought, you know, we're gonna have this beautiful baby and then bring them home and we're just gonna cut along and it's gonna be wonderful. Yeah, no screaming and like sleepless night. Yeah. So yeah, that's it sounds very similar to my story. It took me seven years to have my second because the first one was just like, What the hell yeah. And just Yeah. And that's the thing. Like, I feel like people, they try to give you an idea of what it's gonna be like, yeah, based on their experience, but you're not even in that headspace to even understand what they mean. Like when they say you're not going to get sleep. You go, Oh, that's nice. Like, whatever. You don't actually realize that. That's what they mean. Yeah, totally. I remember reading a book. And it said about this particular type different types of babies like ancient babies, or grumpy babies or whatever. And I'm like, my baby's gonna be perfect. I don't even need to read this. Like it was just denial complete. It's hilarious. Yeah. And there's just this like, you know, idea from society that moms just stay home and they live such good life, because they're just at home and like, they just are watching soap operas all day and have their feet up. And it's so easy, and the kids are easy. And it's like, yeah, you have no idea. No idea. No idea. You happy to talk a bit more about your first birth with the trauma involve? Yeah, I'm a pretty open book. Basically, like, I had a similar experience. I mean, I'm not saying similar because I don't know what you're about to say. But with my second birth, yeah, first birth was first one. I got induced because I had really high blood pressure. Yeah. He come out in an hour and a half. And it was horrific because they didn't have time to do pain relief. And that was the thing like when you have your first everyone says, Oh, it'll take 12 to 14 hours. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. And even the doctor when he came in and administered the drug to and broke my waters. He said, I'll see. I'll see. And I'll see you in 12 to 14 hours. He was joking. And then when I was laying there, and I felt like I felt like I needed your poo. But basically, I felt like I needed to push. And I told them, I said, I need to push. And they said, they looked at me like I was an idiot. And I was like, I feel like there's a bowling ball coming out of my bum. Like it just, that's the only way I could describe it. And they race to get this doctor. And he come up. And he was like, surely not like, again, like I was an idiot. And did a check on me. It was the first day it was surprising. It was horrible. Yeah. So he didn't check any could feel here. And it was like, You're literally about to these babies coming out of you. And it was horrible. It was horrible. And then with my second I said straight up, I need an epidural. Because if he comes, this one comes really quick. I need to be prepared because obviously last one was too late. And because he he was very tiny, he was only four pound 14 When he was born. Because he'd they, I don't know how, but between I had shared care between my midwife at the clinic and then the actual doctor. So between the two of them, they'd somehow missed that his growth had sort of plateaued at about 34 weeks. They hadn't picked that up. So it wasn't too Yeah, nine days before he was due. He the doctor did the scan you guys, your baby stopped growing. And I was like, I didn't know I had this feeling. I didn't have this beautiful big round bump. I had like a lopsided weird bump. And basically all the amniotic fluid had gone. And he'd stopped growing because my placenta had the blood supply was not working properly. So all of a sudden, it's like to get this baby out. Yeah, I didn't do it that day. Thank goodness. It was like two days later. Yeah. And we just had the worst experience like right from the start. We got to the hospital. We had this horrible midwife who told us we were late. And it was like, we got we got told to be there at a certain time. We were like five minutes late, because we couldn't get in through the door of the hospital. And then just thing after thing after thing went wrong. He came, they did the epidural and the epidural was too. He done it too high. So my lungs were starting to stop working like Oh, my breathing is compromised. Then he broke the waters there was nothing there. What did they do? It was just my husband. I think he's still traumatized by watching happen. So they're nice. They tend to to me sideways to let the to move the the epidural stuff, somehow they tilted me sideways because I could feel one leg but not the other. And it was just thing after thing after thing. And eventually, when it came time to push like not a not even push the contraction started. And his his heart rate was going down but it wasn't coming back up. So they were like, well, it's okay that it goes down. But it needs to come back up like a real set shows he's in in stress. They basically they said to me, we've got to get this baby out. And I was like, right and the like, we've got to go have a cesarean so I went to do that. And I'm thinking, Oh, this would be great. We'll get this over with but then when they were doing it, I could, I couldn't feel like I thought I'd be numb, like completely numb. And I wouldn't even know what they were doing down there. But I could feel stuff. So then I started to get all panicky because I couldn't. And I was it was horrible. My midwife when stood over by the wall, and just basically abandoned us. And thank God there was this beautiful theater nurse who came over and she was like stroking my head like it's okay, this is what's happening. This is what's happening next, whatever, she just took charge. And then eventually he come out and you know, he was he's fine. He just was very small. He just didn't have any fat on him. So his lungs were developed. Like everything was fine. Yeah. And then and then the OH MY GOD on the way back to the, to the room. She asked what we're going to name him. And his name is Digby. And she goes, Ah, I know a friend with a dog called Digby. And I was like oh my gosh, really doing this to me after everything's done to me. Now you're doing this. And then sorry, I'm really going on about it now. Obviously need to work through this today. We got back to the room and they decided he needed to be in this like the box thing because he couldn't keep his temperature up for himself. And then they said the specialist pediatric doctor come over and she asked me if I'd been drinking and smoking when I when I was pregnant and I was just like, I just burst into tears. I was like, I wouldn't do that. To my child, like, and she goes, I'm sorry, we have to ask because he's so small. And I said, Well, I overheard the theater people say my placenta was gray and grainy. And she goes, Oh, that explains it then, but then didn't tell me what that meant. Like, no one was telling me what was going on. And then the next thing was, I didn't move all night, because basically, I think I was in shock. And I couldn't move. My body was just in that same position. I came back from theater, and they sat me up for something. And they discovered that the epidural thing was still in my bag. And I was like, seriously, what else could you guys tell like going to end? It was just one thing after another, and I was like, I have to get out of here. And in the end, he the babies did. We stayed there for like two weeks, and I ended up going home and just coming to visit him, like through the day and then go home at night because I just couldn't bear to be there. It was like, well, you must have hated going back in there. Like you just would want to take him out of there. It was the as quick as possible that you can get him home and get out of that place was horrible. And I felt and then I felt really guilty for leaving him there every night saying goodbye and then rushing home trying to get as much sleep as I could pumping in the middle of the night because they messaged me when he was when they were feeding him. So then I was like, right, I better pump now. It was just like, it was hell. But anyway, you had a you had another child to take care of as well. He was he was good though. Because he was he was seven. So he basically had to learn how to make his school lunch. He had to learn how to do so many things like that, like was like Sorry, Alex, we can't do this. You have to do it. Like grow up so quickly pull little bugger. But yeah, so anyway, I've just I've just had an awful horrendous I have like, I had similar things kind of happened in there. But yeah, some of the stuff that happened to you just and that that was it like that, what my OB said to me, and my first birth was, it was really, you were really unlucky, like everything that kept happening to you. And I was like, yeah, it just kept happening to me. And, and he said, like, if it could have gone, you know, if you got to one thing like say an induction, like, it could have gone good or bad, it went bad. Then you went to the next thing could have gone good or bad. It went bad. Like everything just failed the whole way through. And I was just, he was like, you're just really unlucky. And I was like, was like, my husband's really like, would this have happened if we were in, you know, with a different team or in a different environment? Or whatever, you know? Yeah. And you just don't know, I think just this stuff happens, you know, in life. And I think the best thing you can do is try to work through it. Like the more you talk about it and just really figure it out. Because I did that after mine. I was like, I literally called it a puzzle. Like I was trying to piece together what the heck had just happened to me and figure out everything that went on because I actually was in so much pain, I lost my vision. So I have like, yeah, so I just, I think like for months afterwards, I just told people in front of my husband that like, I got to a certain point. And then I just close my eyes and I just bared through it. And I just could hear everything but I couldn't see. And he was like, he ended up telling me like two months later, he's like, your eyes were open, like the whole time. And I was like, oh my god, like I've lost like my vision, like recollection of it, or my body must have just shut that part down or something just to try and survive the pain I was in. But yeah, I think the best thing you can do is just like, you gotta debrief and like talk through it and and then just try and grow from it and figure out like, how did ya how did it kind of make you stronger? Or what did you learn from that? You know, like for me, like I everything I've gone through with my kids. Before I was really probably I didn't trust my instincts too much. I didn't know what to do. I relied heavily on other people around me for advice, you know. And now I feel like I am my son's like my little son's, like best advocate. I know more about him than any doctor. I pretty much tell them what he needs. I don't do anything they advise me to do unless like I feel like it's necessary like so I feel like I'm really confident on now. To who I used to be because yeah, like in the beginning, you know, you got this newborn and you're like, oh, like when do I feed it? What do I do like a rocket? Do I pad it? Like how do I you know, this like what do I what do I give him like? So yeah, now I feel I feel more like I can I can listen to my my instincts more and trust them. So but yeah, my worth was um My waters partially broke in the night on like a Sunday. And then we called the hospital they said to come in. And the nurse that was on she ended up checking if they had broken and because I just had like wet shorts in bed, but then that was it. No nothing else. And I was like 41, and one or something like I was oh, whatever way overdue and I had a big baby like he ended up being was he was like, close to four kilos. That's about eight pounds, eight ounces. And I'm like five foot four, like, I'm not a big person. Anyway, and um, and when she went to check, she ended up scraping or cutting me and I had I had bleeding and I had this like, beautiful pregnancy before this. And then this was like, the start of the horror that I like went through was she had done that. And my husband is not good with blood and hospitals. And he was just like, why? Like was that meant to happen? Like, what's going on? Like, this is like, he was really concerned already. Yeah. And then they basically said, like, you have to go home. Nothing's happening. We I can't how are you? And she was like, I can't tell because now I've like those, those blood and I can't, I can't. And I was like, well, thanks for that. You've just started this off on a great note. Like, everything was fine. I was healthy and everything. And then. And then so we ended up going home. And then like, I think I came in the next day to see my obstetrician or something. And he sent me over to the hospital to get monitored. And I ended up just standing in the waiting room and like no one can help me no one was seeing me I was in pain. I had really bad back labor and my birth. And and then yeah, they couldn't even give me a hot water bottle because they're all used in the rooms and stuff. And I was just really uncomfortable. And I said, I called the the OB and said I don't want to be here anymore. Like can I just go home? This is I'm not getting any treatment here anything. And so he said, Yeah, you can go. And then they ended up calling me and saying oh, your GBS positive. So we like legally in New South Wales, we have to induce you within 24 hours of your water breaking and like, we think they've partially broken and you need to get in here in the next hour. And we need to induce you. And I was like, so now you want me they're like, send me away, like, twice now. So then I went in and then and then they induced me but mine took a long time. And my OB said it was like night, I think it was nine o'clock when they induced me. So he said same thing. Like I'll see you in the morning for a birth. But I said do I do What do I do? Like do I do an epidural? Like I really don't know what to do. And again, I was very much like looking for other people's advice, like not listening to my body or anything like that, and just going by the professionals and trusting that they have done this a million times. And so anyway, he said, Well, I would take an epidural and get some sleep because you're you're going to need some rest. So I took the epidural and then I think yeah, anyway, in the morning, I started like having contractions and start started going into labor and I think that was at like 6am and Oh, and in the night my epidural had worn off or something like that. And so I said to them, like that was so so painful like because it takes them a while to come in and top it off or whatever so I said can you just um when it when it started in the morning I was like can you just make sure like it doesn't go low again like that because that was I was in so much pain there and I'm like in the middle of the night. So they talked it up, like really high or something and then I went into it I was pushing and then he was stuck. He was in the wrong position. He was like, sideways kind of and anyway and then I ended up being in like I would push and then when I rest I just endure like back labor I turn to my side and just be like it it got to the point I just felt like someone had broken my back like it was I was in so much pain. And I couldn't and I just kept saying to them I need a top off of this epidural like I can feel like I'm in so much pain. And they were really perplexed by it and thought you know, you shouldn't be in any pain with the epidural and anyway and Then he got right to the end, like they could see his hair and everything. And then they said, he should be further along by now, you know, you've been pushing for a while, and he hasn't been able to get any further out. And so they said, they said, like, we're gonna do an emergency Caesar. I said, Yeah, it's fine. Just like get him out. I'm just in so much pain right now. And then they went into the operating room, and the OB said, I just want to try a vacuum because he's right there. And I think I could if I twist them a little bit, I think I could pull them out. And anyway, the midwife the head midwife was arguing, saying, Don't do that. Like, that's not going to work. And so anyway, he did it and pop like this. It came off and he got this huge hematoma on his head. No, yeah, poor little guy. And then. And then they said, We're going to do a Cesar and then same thing they went to do like test if I was numb, and I was like, I can feel everything. Like I can feel all of that. Yeah. And they were like, Oh, my gosh, I think your epidurals fallen out, like I think it failed. Oh, not explain why I was in so much pain. And then, um, and then they, they said, We're gonna have to give you a general we're gonna have to knock you out. So I said, Whatever, I don't care. Just knock me out. By this point. My husband was so traumatized and like, so concerned. And so they sent him out by himself, sat him in a room all by himself. And then they knocked me out and they pulled out my son, and he went limp in blue. And they had to resuscitate him and CPR and everything, because he had the trauma from the, from the vacuum. And then he had a bit of a general so he wasn't in a good way. So he was in the NICU for five, five days, I think, or maybe a week, we were in the hospital together. But luckily, I could stay on the ward because I was in the public. And I was a private patient. So I was paying. So yeah, they kept me they kept me on the ward and let me feed him and all that stuff in the hospital. But yeah, it was just awful was horrible. But that whole week in the hospital, I like just wanted to kind of, yeah, figure everything out and get out of there. And like, yeah, it's just not nice, ya know, Banner, kind of, and no one else, like around me had anything like that. So I was just like, Why me like, yeah, for a long time, I think we went through that, like, you know, the whole Why did this happen to us kind of thing. But then a year later, I think I kept going, I kept going. I kept going, like, when I went back to school, I kept coming on school break, and I was having like a real struggle. And I didn't know why I was kind of having these outbursts and lashes out to my husband when it was a time when I should be so relaxed and feel so good. And I was like, actually not coping in the in the break time when I was like, I want to do all this stuff, but I can't do anything. And I'm really struggling and and then I went and saw my GP and they ended up diagnosing me with PTSD, like a year later, when I finally could kind of deal with it. So, yeah, yeah, it's that PTSD. That's something they diagnosed me with too. And it's interesting that I don't think I realized at the time, how, but how bad had been for me like, I don't think I just thought I similar thing. I've been really unlucky stuff happens. No one else around me had the same thing. And it wasn't till I was, I think I was on Facebook or Instagram, Amanda and I were talking about birth trauma and like recognizing an actual, it's an actual thing. birth trauma is a thing and they were talking about there needs to be more said about it and more support. And I was like, I think that's me. I think they have been trained like it's just, there's no, there's no, I don't know, when you're in the hospital. It's basically once you've had that baby. All the support goes to the baby like everything's about a baby and it's like, hang on a sec. I've just literally had my guts ripped open. Yeah. With little very little preparation, and under really, you know, stressful circumstances. And then I'm expected to look after this child like it just seems there's no care for the mothers that have been there. Yeah, and yeah, it took me a long time to realize that I was one of those people and then done a lot of work with my therapy. His two sort of things. And yeah, it's well done. Yeah, that's so important. I think you've, you've got to go through it and everything or else. Yeah, you just kind of hold on to it. And then, you know, you don't you kind of fall apart later in life, so yeah, yeah. Oh, so healthy to keep all that in. And that's a really horrible thing to keep in, you know, that's huge. That's not just like, you know, something minor. That's happened that's really big. And I think, yeah, everyone just thinks going into having a baby is, you know, this natural thing that we are all made to be able to do and stuff and actually, you know, sometimes it's, it's major surgery in someone's life, like, yeah, that's not a normal thing. Yeah, cuz you don't sort of plan like, you know, you and I are having a C sections. It's like, you can't drive for a certain amount of time after Yeah, yeah. So you don't think that that's going to happen to you don't sort of plan beforehand, right? Who's going to take me around and whatever, because you just don't think that that's going to happen? That in itself is like really limiting? Because then you have to ask people are really vulnerable that I can't even go down the shops, I've got to ask someone to do it. For me, it took me a long time was learning how to ask for help. Because, you know, and I still work on that and stuff. But yeah, like that. That's a huge part of motherhood is you literally can't do it yourself. So you have to learn that skill of asking for help. And you've gone from being this independent adult who doesn't really require anybody else's help, you know, to suddenly you have to be really vulnerable. Put yourself out there and ask for it. Yeah, to like to be able to do what you do. Yeah, it that's a big one, I think for a lot of bumps. was for me, yeah, yeah. Yeah, me too. Oh, gosh. Oh, thanks for sharing for sharing that. Yeah, no problem. Your story. It's yeah. It's beneficial to talk about things. I think it's like, yeah, definitely. Yeah. And just, the more we kind of communicate and like put stuff out there, the more people become aware, you know, and, and it's not or, and people can relate and be like, Oh, I'm not like the odd one out, huh. Like what happened to you actually, is very similar to you know, a lot of it has similarities to what happened to me and I went into my birth being like, like, I pretty sure my husband and I toured the hospital and we went through the NICU. And we were like, I looked at him and I was like, we won't be in here. We were in there for a week. Like, we weren't definitely in there. So but yeah, and when we were in there, like we our son was nicknamed the basketball player because he was so huge. He was long and big. And there was all these preemie babies. And that's what you think when you think of the NICU is like, preemie babies and stuff in there, you know, but it can be all sorts of reasons why you end up in there. So yeah, that's really true, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I feel like you need to shake myself down. That's it exactly. Yeah, all sorts of things. So like, I've just recently done a yeah, I've done so much like different stuff and kind of trying to work on myself and self care to take care take care of ourselves. And yeah, I recently did like a retreat, a women's retreat down the south coast here. And yeah, we did all sorts of stuff like that, like after you kind of tell your story or whatever you do, like an experience, like a cacao ceremony, or like shamanic breathwork and stuff. And then afterwards, it's kind of like, okay, like, we've gone through all that, shake it all out of your out of your body. And it's like, all that stuff is like really important. It really helps. So just lighten the load, like every time you kind of talk about it, and that sort of thing. It just gets a little bit lighter. So yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Like I mean, I used to be, you know, talking about all this stuff and be in tears talking about it, like I could barely even talk about it, right? It's so painful and you feel such a victim, whereas now I'm like, this is something that's happened, but I've worked through it, I've moved through it, and this is where I'm at now and like I would never be where I am if I hadn't gone through all that, like, you know, trying to see it as like, somewhat of a blessing that it's like improved your life, you know, instead of Yeah, this horrible thing. Yeah, that's it, isn't it trying to see the positives and, and learn, I guess, what your lesson was, like what you had to what you had to learn through experience. And that's like, you know, it's like, COVID we've all gone through that. And, like, what, you know, there's probably some people who are still in, uh, in kind of like a victim state saying, you know, that was a horrible time in my life. And like, always, you know, that's really affected me or there's people who are like, I learned so much from that experience. Like, I now know what's really important to me, like, I know what I want to do actually changed my whole career. Like I did this. I did that, like, going through it, you know, and, and it's not just COVID that happened, like people had lots of horrible things happen because of COVID in there, you know, but they've become more resilient from it. So I think that's really important. Really important to do. Yeah, that's, that's a tree. Have you got anything coming up that you want to share? You've talked about your, yeah, for boats. By the time this episode comes out, that would have happened. But I'm definitely going to share that whatever I got coming up soon. I'll be having like it for people who are local, I'll be having. I want to try and make the monthly, but I've just collaborated with a gin bar in town to hold my art workshops at called juniper. So I'm going to be Yeah, I'll have an art workshop there next month in April. I've got my online community. This is kind of like my goal for this year, that I'm doing my art workshops to help moms get out of out of the home and women in general. And then yeah, the online community to connect and have that support and then the coaching. So my coaching is it's like ongoing, anybody can can sign up, but it's for a six month period. So anything less than that, just, you know, that's not enough time to sort of make some change and see some real results. So yeah, I commit to one hour every week for six months. And art wise. I've got I've applied for an exhibition actually in New York with my recent paintings. So it's an artist's mother exhibition. But yeah, I really keep my eye out for those sorts of artists mother kind of opportunities flying around, there's, there's a couple coming up. So I might apply for a couple others. But there's also my son's chromosome disorder. There is an an art competition for like rare disease art. So I think I really want to make something for that this year. That's in the middle of the year. I think it's like August or something, or maybe, might actually July. Um, but yeah, I'm hoping that's going to be an opportunity for me to sort of delve into that side of expression and trying to represent visually like my experience of, you know, having a son with a rare disease and raising a child with disabilities. Yeah, and I don't know what I'm going to create, but we'll see how that goes. But I do really want to do that. Because yeah, it's something really personal to me, huh? Yeah, not good on Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much for coming on, Andrew. It's just been a lovely chat today. And thank you for sharing so honestly, yeah. Cool. Thank you for having me and chatting with me, with all your honesty as well. Wonderful. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast already. In sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

2 Cherie Harte Canadian interdisciplinary artist 2 Article # 23 June 2023 I am an interdisciplinary artist born in Toronto Canada and I create oodles of abstracted hearts. My desire is to spread some love while sparking conversation about our modern definition of love. I explore love as an action rather than a passive emotion. Art is my vehicle for deep diving into childhood, intergenerational trauma, and exploring constructs outside societal norms. My modern day artistic influences are Yayoi Kusama, Wendy Red Star, Rose Wylie, Misaki Kawai, Hannah Hanski, London Kaye and Tracey Emin. And if I could teleport back in time I would love to visit the studios of Hilma afKlint, Frida Kahlo, Louise Bourgeois, Joan Mitchell and Maud Lewis along with the studios of Jean Michel Basquiat, Cy Twombly and Keith Haring. I now live in a century home on 10 acres in rural Ontario. My partner and I are slowly restoring the home and beginning our adventures in regenerative agriculture. Art, farm, food and community! I dream of processing my own wool for textile and fiber work. I have always been creative. As a child I would create spaces so I could tuck into my closet, close the door to the world, and just doodle and dream. We moved a lot when I was growing up and I was always redecorating my bedroom - including moving my furniture and making spaces for myself to get lost in imaginary play. I recall this series of baby faces I drew. I would spend hours imagining them and creating unique personalities for all of them. Like so many kids I was told by teachers and guidance counselors that I lacked any innate creative skill and that art was not a valid career choice. So I went to post secondary to study psychology, knowing it was not the right fit for me, all the while making and creating on the side. In my early 20’s I was hospitalized for several years with depression and I put a pause on completing my degree. A story I share in depth later in the interview. Fast forward to my 30’s. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disorder that was impacting my physical wellbeing, my mental health, and pretty much every facet of my life. A stay at home Mom, married with two children, my marriage was on life support. A very good friend invited me to attend an art class at a local studio with her and the rest is history. I began painting, exploring and creating again. Creating was my portal back to health. The owner of the studio / gallery space where I was painting suggested a solo exhibit in 2017 and I have not looked back since. I am a multidisciplinary artist and I love playing with paint, clay, beading, collage, textile, fiber and found objects- depending on the demands of daily life -and what materials are available to me. I have 5 children - 3 are my biological kiddos and 2 are my stepchildren. The kids are age Nyles age 5 (bio Mom), Paige age 23 (bio Mom), Liv age 23, Noah age 25 (bio Mom) and Zya age 26. My partner and I met in our early 40’s, and though we both had two children from our first marriages, we knew we wanted more. We also knew we did not want to live with regret. So we immediately got to work and our family welcomed our son Nyles into the world in 2018. He has been the glue for our big kids and such a beautiful gift to our family. All five of the kids are creative in some capacity - whether it be drawing, painting, crocheting, needle point, sewing, cooking… "A stay at home Mom, married with two children, my marriage was on life support. I began painting, exploring and creating again. Creating was my portal back to health." My art life is always growing and shifting as my personal and familial life changes for me. Right now I am taking a few weeks to care for my partner who just had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands. And last week my youngest was home with the flu. So the sofa became my studio - in between caring for sick family. But generally I start my studio time by lighting a candle and some white sage or incense for clearing my space. I then light some palo santo and do some self reiki. I ask that the work that I am about to do be in the service of the higher good of myself and all others. I then turn on some solfeggio frequencies and I journal 3 pages - stream of consciousness. A beautiful gift passed down to me from Julia Cameron’s book “The Artists Way”. Sometimes it is more than 3 pages and sometimes I doodle along the way - ideas that I have for expressing universal love and healing. I then carry this journaling over to my canvas or textile work. Painting, crocheting and weaving my daily experiences into my work. Asking the universe for what I wish for the world - love, peace, caring, abundance, compassion and I ask for healing for the parts of me that are still unlearning and learning. I often use aromatherapy, reiki symbolism, oracle card reading, crystal and sound healing in my studio sessions. Infusing each artwork with additional energetic medicines. My day is spent researching, creating, sourcing supplies, and doing administrative work. I try to meet with other artists and build in time to explore museums, galleries and art exhibits. Energetics and spirituality are a big component of my work and I incorporate reiki, sound healing , aromatherapy, and tarot/orcale in my daily studio routines. This is full time work for me. Often I am working during the day plus evenings and weekends. I am essentially running a small business where I am creating the product by hand - without an assistant ( on my dream list). So the hours are intense and I do my best to build my routines around family time. I have a very supportive partner who helps with a lot of the household chores so I can focus on time with the kids and my work. He also helps out in the studio with projects he finds interesting. And I have the kids in the studio as much as possible. I find I learn so much from their open minded exploration and conversation. And our home is an extension of the studio - we spend a lot of time making together. KEEP SHOWING UP! When things get hard, when things seem like they are not going to plan, or not making sense in the moment - keep showing up! In my experience, this is often when the big breakthroughs are about to occur. You just have to find the passion and drive to keep showing up for yourself and your work. My one other big piece of advice is - BELIEVE IN YOURSELF! If you don’t believe in yourself, and your work, how can you expect others to believe in you??? Do some self reflection to find out why you don’t believe in yourself and clear those blocks. If you don’t believe in yourself, your work, your worth and your message - then why should others? My youngest was really sick for a long stretch with covid this winter and it meant no studio time for weeks - so I started crocheting again. A gift my Grandmother shared with me when I was a child… and from that pivoting to meet the needs of my family came my series of crocheted hearts. I find life is always throwing curve balls, especially as a Mum caring for the needs of others, and I am constantly adapting my studio practice to consider my needs and those of my family. I am very grateful to be a part of an artist parents group started by Sarah Cullen and Alison Thompson, called Mothra, here in Ontario. I have attended two very magical artist residencies with the group, along with my partner and our youngest son, on Toronto island. And the group now meets monthly over zoom to talk all things art, parenting and life related. Did I mention how magical this group is??? I also have very supportive kids and a partner whose family comes out to as many of my exhibits as they can. One of my stepdaughters joined me as my right hand at a recent exhibit in New York CIty and my Mother-in-law traveled with me to London UK for my exhibit there with the Other Art Fair. They not only support me but they support the arts, and artists, in general . It is fabulous! Both support networks have led to many deep conversations about life and art. And both have shifted the way I perceive myself, my work and the world around me. I wouldn't be where I am today without them. Parenting has taught me a lot about the importance of being in the moment, experimentation and play. And has allowed me to drop the accumulation of societal pressure and debris for perfection and judgment. There is a freedom in the way young children express themselves in the world. How they befriend everyone they meet in a minute, and are just curious about being alongside friends, and learning from them. No masks or pretense - no ego - all heart centered openness to present possibility and play. Do I believe Mum guilt exists - yes. Have I experienced it personally - Yes! Do I desire to perpetuate it — absolutely no. I believe Mum guilt is part of a larger societal problem of toxic patriarchal systems, designed to diminish a woman’s worth, rather than support and celebrate women. I find it crops up for me when I am parenting - and feel I should be working. Or when I am working and feel I should be parenting. Or when I am with friends and not with my kids and partner…. It is there, living like a mania right under the surface of my skin, always. It has me discounting every little thing I do or do not do… questioning… Am I working too much, Mothering too much, socializing too much…. Or not enough…. My way of working through it is being as fully present to each moment of my day as I can be. I have a daily journaling and meditation practice that helps a lot. I anchor myself with reminders of what my overall day, week and month has looked liked. Right down to the nitty gritty like reminding myself that I made a healthy lunch that took 30 minutes of time - but is a priority for my health and the health of my family. Without these grounding practices I find it is very easy to lose sight of my priorities, how much I have grown, and accomplished right up to the present moment . So I do my best to be fully present. If I am Mothering - I do it by choice. If I am painting - I am doing it by choice. If there is a chore that I am doing that does not excite me - I focus on the larger picture blessing. I am folding laundry because I make the conscious choice to bless my family with a clean and well organized home. Another chore I do not enjoy is washing my paint brushes - so I focus on the way I will feel when I walk into a clean, tidy studio. And the way I will feel when I am painting in that clean studio with well cared for brushes. It's all a mindset thing for me. Creating the beautiful life I desire, and deserve, to live. When my schedule calls for more rigorous work hours, away from family, I ask for help from my partner. And I trust that my family is in good stead and that I have banked precious moments with them and let them know how important they are to me. I cannot tell them enough in a day how much I love them and how I feel I won the lottery to be their Mom and partner. And because words can be cheap - I do my very best to live that caring through my daily actions and by taking more family time when my work schedule is less rigorous. I have essentially had three entirely different experiences with Motherhood. Once when my older children (now in their early 20”s) were born, once when I stepped into the role of stepmother and then again when my 5 year old was born. I don't identify with parenting as an identity shift at all. Parenting for me has always been more of an extension of me. A deepening of my relationship with myself, and of course, others. I see Mothering as such an immense gift. I find Motherhood very fulfilling, but of course, it is important to me to be more than a Mother! Just as it is important to me to be more than just a daughter, or wife, or sister, or friend, or artist. All of the parts are important and they all hold different importance at different stages of life. I do this by deeply listening to my own intuition and heart whispers and again being as fully present as possible. Learning to edit my life and prioritize what is most important to me. Saying yes to what excites me and no to what doesn’t elicit full belly butterflies. "I find life is always throwing curve balls, especially as a Mum caring for the needs of others, and I am constantly adapting my studio practice to consider my needs and those of my family." Art is definitely fulfilling to me and I believe I am a better person because of the work I do. But I am also a better person because I have experienced Motherhood and cultivated unconditional love for another human(S). And of course I want my children to see me living a healthy and fulfilled life beyond parenting because I want each of them to live healthy and fulfilled lives. I think the most important thing is choice. And doing the things we do consciously, with great love, from a deep desire to make the world a better place. I recently watched a movie about Grace Kelly - an American actor who married the Prince of Monaco. For those who don’t know Grace Kelly gave up her very successful acting career to step into a different stage of her life. Mothering, supporting her husband in his role as head of state, and also doing what she felt best for the country she was called to co-pilot with her husband. And although she gave up her career, I believe she found a different purpose, and she carried out her duties with great passion. And I personally think that is a beautiful story. I believe the answer lies in more men - husbands, fathers - doing the same. Stepping up to either be primary caregivers themselves and/or loudly celebrating and supporting the work of the women in their lives. I do not necessarily think that our societal shift to a more work-centric model of living has been healthy for anyone - with - or without children. Full time parenting, done with great love, is one of the most important jobs one can undertake. I realize not everyone feels fulfilled in that role and I can’t help but wonder how that would change if societal opinions and remuneration about womens worth and caregiving went through a healing metamorphosis . As Mothers I feel we can’t win - in the society we are currently role playing in. If we work outside of the home we are judged for not being good Mothers. If we choose to stay home we are judged for not working outside the home and furthering women's rights. I think the problem lies in societal judgment and a course correction might find us living in a happier, healthier collective. Having been both a full time stay at home Mom and a working Mom in this lifetime I feel the important thing is having choice and a support network to pursue our passions while caring for our families. Creating is absolutely vital to my wellbeing and growth. Making money from creating is fabulous, but it certainly does not determine my worth, or influence my desire to continue to dream and create. Money is simply energy. A totally manmade construct. Used by others to project unto me what they believe is the value of me and my work - as an artist Mother. Money is great but I definitely do not allow it to determine my worth as an artist or person. At some very sad point in history society collectively bought into the notion that women, their voices, and their work, was (and continues to be) less than that of men. The artworld has sadly played into this toxic viewpoint by filling galleries and museums with somewhere in the vicinity of 90% male voices - some of which are extremely misogynist - such as Picasso. The collective, and the institutions we support, will only ever be as healthy as our weakest link. And until we recognize that women’s voices, and work, are not only vital - but equal to the work of men - we will continue to have a very sick society. I was born in 1973 and my Mother, who is Métis, was 15 when she gave birth to me. My growing up life was very abusive and it was a pretty regular occurrence for police and childrens aid to be called to our home. It was also common day for me to hear how my parents did not want me- and if they could do it all over again - I would not be here. I haven’t shared that publicly until now but I think it is an important thing for me to voice, because if I experienced it there are likely other young women experiencing it now, and I want them to know they absolutely do matter. And our world does need them and needs to hear their voices. My mother was definitely expected to work outside of the home, plus carry out all of the domestic duties, and she had little to no family and community support. It seems to me that women fought for the right to work outside of the home, and men said okay you can have it, but you still have to take care of all domestic duties. And that is still the case today with most women carrying the bulk of the domestic load while also caring for children, aging parents and working outside of the home. When my parents divorced I recall my Mother working three jobs at one point to make ends meet. My experience with all of this as a child, and the impact on my own parenting, is extremely complex. I am what they term a latch-key kid - I had no parents home to raise me. And as the eldest female I became responsible for the bulk of the domestic duties at a very young age. I always knew that I wanted to be a parent. Looking back I think I craved the family connection I did not have, and I very likely unconsciously craved the soul journey children would bring, even if I was not aware of it at the time . And I always wanted to be present for my children, to celebrate their unique voices, and for each of them to know how deeply loved and appreciated they are. That they are the most beautiful gifts in my life. It has taken me 40 plus years to realize that I can only give this gift to my children - if I believe it of and for - myself first. This is not an easy integration in a society that continues to perpetuate the toxic myth of women being intrinsically less than. Understanding my intrinsic worth, and that my voice and work do truly matter, is ongoing work for me. It is my work of a lifetime. THIS NEXT PARAGRAPH CONTAINS MENTIONS OF SUIDICE AND MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES My journey with mental health struggles began as a young child. In my grade 7 year I essentially stopped going to school, and because I had no parent home, no one caught it.I flew under the radar - still getting well above passing grades without ever being present. I recall having thoughts of killing myself at this time. Thoughts that I carried with me until my early 20’s when I returned home from a night out with friends, took every pill I could find in my medicine cabinet, and went to sleep hoping not to wake up. I spent a few years as an inpatient in a psychiatric ward where I was diagnosed first as depressed and then as bipolar. Medications offered little promise and the side effects were often worse than the symptoms. I was then prescribed electric shock therapy and had several treatments until one day the anesthetist was late and nurses decided to begin strapping me to the bed before I was sedated - so their schedule would not be affected. It was such a profound and demeaning experience that I refused any further treatment. I then went on to try to kill myself one last time shortly after my final electroshock therapy. It was during this episode that I had a dream that all of my family were present (they never attended the hospital during my depression) and a doctor was speaking to them and telling them that I was going to die. And that was it. I made the decision that I wanted to live. I made the decision that I matter to me and that is enough. Contact Cherie My website : www.cherieharte.com IG : @cherieharte_studio I am currently working on a solo exhibit of my latest body of work “Gentle Loving Kindness for Everyone”. The details have not been released yet, but I am very excited, and will share on social media and to my newsletter subscribers once dates are confirmed. Until then my work will be traveling to the Affordable Art Fair in Seattle, New York and Singapore with Spence Gallery in Toronto. BACK

Amy Siegfried US podcaster + entrepreneur S2 Ep56 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Amy Siegfried, a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa Oklahoma, USA and a mother of 1 - AKA The Tiny Human. Originally from Las Vegas, Amy’s athletic career was short-lived, but she fell in love with the world of sports. That learned love for sports came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports, working as an intern in a Major League Baseball Club. She’s lived internationally, which provides her with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought, as women, we are constantly hurdling unrealistic expectations, but what if we could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy finally founded her company Last Night's Game with her brother. It was born out the idea of how do you go to work in a that male dominated world and converse in sports, Not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like foods, travel, celebrity gossip and music associated with significant sporting events. Think, the Super Bowl Half Time show, WAGS, sports fashions and off the field goings on. They launched their email publication and website first, then 4 years later the podcast Sports Curious was born. They believe in short and sweet, emails are about a 3-4 minute read, and podcasts max of 5 minutes, supplying interesting tid bits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing, partnerships and public relations and she has also presented a TedX speech . Today we chat about women supporting each other, celebrating your wins, and having each other's back rather than judging each other. Last Night's Game on instagram Podcast - instagram / website Watch Hoda Kotb's induction speech Music used with permission from Alemjo Australian new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Amy Siegfried. Amy is a podcaster and entrepreneur based in Tulsa, USA. And as a mom of one originally from Las Vegas. Amy's athletic career was short lived, but she fell in love with the world of sport. That learn to love for sport came in handy when she embarked on her career in professional sports working as an intern in a major league baseball club. She's lived internationally, which provides him with a global sports perspective. It was while working in this male dominated world that Amy thought as women were constantly hurdling, unrealistic expectations. But what if she could make that easier? After having the initial idea 14 years earlier, Amy founded her company last night's game with her brother. It was born out of the idea of how do you go to work in a male dominated world and converse in sports, not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. Things like food, travel, celebrity gossip, and music associated with significant sporting events. Think the Superbowl halftime show WAGs sports fashions and the off field goings ons. They launched their email, publication and website first then four years later, the podcast entitled sports curious was born. They believe in short and sweet emails are about three to four minute read and podcasts and maximum of five minutes supplying interesting tidbits of information that you might be able to use to start a conversation with a sports fan. Amy's career spans marketing partnerships and public relations. And she's also presented a TEDx speech. Music used in today's episode is from LM Joe, an Australian New Age and ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson, and her husband, John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to the podcast. Amy. It's a real pleasure to meet you and to have you today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So we're about to you at the moment. You're in the US. Yes, I am in Tulsa, Oklahoma and Oklahoma. For those who are not familiar, I just write about as I like to call it Texas, the Texas hat. So just because there's like a cowboy hat to Texas. That's a cool way of describing it. Right. Right. Well, I'm from Las Vegas, and most people have heard of Las Vegas. So from Yeah, so you're originally from Las Vegas. So you've lived in other places around the world to whereabouts have you? Have you been? We Well, I've lived across the couple places in the US obviously from he lived in Phoenix. And we lived in Singapore and now we live in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah, that'd be pretty exciting living in Singapore. It was a it was a really exciting and someone actually asked me yesterday if I missed it, and I said, Yes. There's certainly pluses and minuses to everything being 26 hours of flying time away from your family is a little far but there's so many wonderful things. And I said to someone, like what do you miss my, the food and the diversity? I just love the mix of people and, and that's what I really learned to appreciate. And I think the more that I've traveled, the more I've understood I understand that. Basically everyone's the same we all want the same few things for ourselves for our families, and its safety, its food, and you know, we want to be happy to have good health and so I mean, that's truly what we all want and the more you travel the smaller the world becomes. Because that same it's the same inner woven vein through no matter where you live. what language you speak. Yeah, yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Like because often we say oh, we're all so different and blah blah But yeah, when it comes down to it we all we all have our needs our basic human needs for survival. Yeah, right. That's really all I mean, when it comes down to it when when all things hit the fan like that's all you really need in the in the, in the in the big pictures and so on. Think that's just really interesting part of everyone bonds over food and different things, and maybe different food and maybe different drink. But everybody bonds over food and different things. So it's really kind of fun. And that was one big thing. We traveled a lot. We always had cooking classes. Ah, that was a great way to get into learning just local food and local currency cultures. And why this ingredient versus that? And so it's kind of interesting. And like, yeah, what's important? What do they value? Why do they use what they use? And? Yeah, that's really cool. I love that insert. So you are a podcaster, amongst other things, I know you do a lot of different things. But tell us about your podcast, because it's really cool. You're very kind. Thank you. So I created a company called last night's game I brothers, also my co founder. And I'll give you a quick synopsis of it. But it was born out of the idea. I used to work in major baseball, I worked for the Arizona tax. And I had all these girlfriends who knew nothing about the world of sports. And we were in our early 20s. And I thought how do you go to work in a male dominated industry of manufacturing, or law or whatever that might be? And not have even just a baseline of what's happening? You'd have no idea. It's some big, maybe the Olympics, they might know. But I mean, it's one of those where they don't have and if there's a scoop, the Superbowl or whatever that might be. So how do you go in the office and not have just that baseline? And so I called my brother who was in high school at the time, in turn. So I was making 525 an hour. And, you know, okay, we need to figure out how we teach our friends about sort of the interesting side of sports, the not the stats, not the things that happen on the field or on the court. The interesting things about sports, why? Kind of like cooking, like, Why do you have this ingredient versus this ingredient? And, and so he was like, that's a really great idea. And me, but I'm in high school and you work 80 hours a week. So no. And so that was 14 years before we started last night's game. And when we were moving back from Singapore, I realized that no one was hiring because it was Thanksgiving in the US, and no one really hires between Thanksgiving and New Years. And so we I sort of said, Okay, well, I have about a month and a half to sort of let's give this a shot. And so we started that, and it was ugly. In the beginning. You know, we were it was not a pretty product by any stretch of the imagination. And so we rolled that out. And about, probably four years after we rolled out our email, I'll try weekly email publication and our website, we rolled out a podcast and the way we do our email publication, as well as our podcast is we believe in short and sweet. Emails are about a three minute read, you can click for more information if you want it, but just briefly, the headlines if you'd like. And then the podcast is about five minutes. And we cover sort of what's happening in the world of sports at this time. Typically, it's around that something like a five things to know about. We just did five things about the Masters was just last week, I want to talk about major league baseball season. And we'll do stuff about Earth Day, actually, this week on the podcast. And so we we sort of tried to cover things that are interesting that you might be able to start a conversation with someone who was a sports person. And well, the way I always see sports, and I use it myself this way is it's a great foray into conversation. But it also has this great plethora of roads out of the sports conversation, you can talk about food, you can talk about travel, maybe you want to tweak and fashion, celebrity gossip, I mean, you can really weave it all in together. And so that's how we kind of we talk about sports, and that's how we cover them. And because no one no one's interested in, you know, the stats, and this and that they really want to know the stories. And that's how we all talk, right? We talk about the stories of our travels or whatever that might be. So our kids, whatever that might be. So that's kind of how we cover sports. Something makes it interesting, huh? No, I love that because you're right, it can be incredibly intimidating because it isn't, it's a man's world. It you know, we're trying to make it better. And over here in Australia, we have the women's football, the AFL football league, and we have women's soccer and we have women's cricket. But, you know, we're always seen as like the poor cousin of the men's game, which is unfortunate. So in that it can feel very daunting to try and converse. Enter a sports world because you feel like you're going to be judged because you're right to start with unless you know what you're talking about. So your episodes they're short, sweet to the point how often do you bring out your episodes? Where every week? Yeah, every once in a while we'll roll out a bonus episode on something. But yes, every week so it's been it's been fun. It's just in my whole theory is or email publication. It is Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And the podcast is once a week because I feel like if you're truly not in the ESPN Sports World, then you are. You're trying to digest what you read. And I think sometimes there's so much information coming out of you. So if you can have a day or two to digest what you read in your email, or a day or two or week to listen to that podcast, even though it's short, it gives you a chance to process and then execute it in your conversations. That's it, isn't it? You can put it put into practice test it out. Exactly. That's exactly give it a whirl Yeah. I want to ask you, what was it like being a woman working in that bus baseball environment. It was interesting. Now there my now I worked in the Community Relations Department in the foundation. So we were female, heavy in that department. But it was definitely different. It was definitely interesting, because it truly is a man's world. And you kind of have to get in there. And I probably blame them for my mouth, spews four letter words, and some of those other things. But it's it's definitely, it's an adjustment. And it's it's really interesting because you are in it even more. So in a man's world, you're in a world of men, where a lot of them were always told how great they were always built up. Because there are these athletes, there are these celebrities, if you will. And I will tell you 99.9% of them are fantastic. Their dads, their brothers, their husbands, they're great men. And so that is I mean, I don't want to give anybody a bad, a bad reputation at all. But it was definitely one of those things that you had to be mindful as a woman of what you were doing, where you were, who you were with. And so that's kind of just one of those things that you really do have to, you know, and stand your own ground when it came to things where they maybe things maybe got uncomfortable. There were comments you made. I got really good at just sort of rushing off and giving a hard time and going alright, well move along here type of thing. So it's kind of it's funny how you just, it's a life skill, though. You know, when I met my husband, my father in law has that personality where he always tries to make comments or funny things. He always tries to like get under your skin and not in like a mean way. But he wants to get your reaction. Yeah. And so I had that skill from the My Work in baseball that really turned into a benefit of giving my shit my short, witty comebacks to him where I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, well, let me get you on this one. Yeah. So yeah, it's definitely likes going out, I would just say it's one of those things that if as long as you, you respected yourself, you really were You were fine. You really had to push for what you wanted, though. And for who maybe career jobs because there were certain jobs that women just didn't do. And we have our first there's a woman who's Alyson Aiken, who's the AI. She's about a year and a half into her career as a baseball coach for Major League Baseball team. And she's the first woman to coach on the field. She's an assistant baseball coach for the San Francisco Giants. And so it's neat to see you know, baseball, we have an in football, we have quite an American football, we have quite a few female coaches, not head coaches. But they're factored in there in one way or another. So it's nice to see that these women are pushing through that boundary and saying, I don't care that this is a locker room situation. I'm a good coach, I'm really good at what I do. I'm the best you can hire. Forget that. I'm a woman. I'm the best that that's out there. And so it has been really neat and really motivating to see women step up into those roles. And and we talked a little bit about earlier about women in sports, but it's been really neat. So we have the the March Madness college basketball tournament that happens here in the US, the men's tournament in the women's tournament, and it's a whole bracket single elimination that drives the country crazy for a month, and just solid basketball. And this year, they've really built up the women's tournament. And the numbers have gone through the roof because people are watching because great basketball, great sport. They're very talented. And so that is really neat for us as a company that covers sports. You know, we cover the headlines. And so sometimes that is maybe mostly American football versus throwing in something, but it's mostly going to be men's sports. That's what people are talking about. But I really love turning on ESPN here and having the break the first story of Sports Center, a women's sports story. And that to me is really cool because where we've tried to we definitely I will say that definitely because we're women women lead that I steer the conversation toward women's sports where I can So it's really neat to not have to steer it because it's all of a sudden, it's already missing on its own. And that is a really cool thing to see even in. We've been around for about six years. And so it's been really nice to see how that has worked in covering sports in general. You know, with the beginning, it was, let's talk about so and so's wife or girlfriend. And now it's turned into Rockstar was out there taking, taking names, doing what she does best. And that's really cool, huh? Yeah, that would that would be a really interesting part of what you're doing is being able to watch that evolution. And let's hope it continues to go. I hope so, too. And I think that leaves a lot of faith and motivation for women's sports in other countries. I mean, I look we're we're heading to Australia for the Women's World Cup next year. Yeah. Right. And so we have a dear friend who lives in Perth, so we're gonna go visit him and go to some games with our kiddos. And I look forward to if it's the right season. What else can we fit in there? What else can we see? And, you know, learning for me, he also did a our friend Toby. So shout out to you, Toby. Did a whole write up for us on rugby. Yes, that's a whole thing that we're slowly with. We've kind of grown more lacrosse than rugby. But it's really a fun sport that people my brother played rugby in college. And so it's neat to learn so much about and it's fun to, for us to bring a different perspective on the world. And sports just joins, they join together. And so it's really neat to be able to share some of those insights into other sports that maybe are more much more popular in other countries. Absolutely, yeah. And then I think the closest we get to yours, your American football is obviously Super Bowl. That is like they put it on Morning, probably like 10 o'clock in the morning. And of course everyone wants to see who's like the halftime show is like the biggest thing in the world. But that in itself, you know, connects people even though a lot of us don't get what's happening, but they were involved in the spectacle, you know, they they you get caught up in the whole atmosphere of it and you can sort of, you know, relate to some aspect of it to allow you to join in and and have fun with it, I guess even if it is just the halftime show. Right? That's I think that's why Super Bowl is just our favorite because it does take into account the game itself and that's interesting because you can tell stories about the players but there's so much that happens around the Superbowl and that's, you know, once again, going back to food and I think I'm gonna screw up the numbers. I think it's like 6 billion chicken wings are eaten in the US on Super Bowl Sunday. It's obscene. And it's just so it's so neat to look at the commercials and all the other things that we see in the last Super Bowl was in LA as you have this huge celebrity presence and that's just a really like that is a perfect storm for someone like last night's game because we love the non sporting side of that and that really get does give everyone something to talk about. Yeah, that's it's like, yeah, he cares about the game but what was what a singer seeing and what were they aware about the game? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about your family. You mentioned the kids, you're gonna bring them out to Australia to come to the to the soccer we call soccer Night Football. What do you call over there? Do you call it soccer or football? We call it soccer. Ecosa. Yeah, we call it soccer. And then sometimes we call it football. Depending if the if the Europeans are around it gets cold. Let's take a fusing because we've got AFL out like Australian rules football. And then we've also got Rugby League, and we've got rugby union. So there's like four different footballs. So the black and white one, that's the one we're going with. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. So I have a little munchkin and he is three and a half. I affectionately refer to him as the tiny human. And, you know, he's just he's been trying to break in here for the past few minutes. And he's a he's a great little dude. And so we'll bring him on his first big trip to Australia and I think we're taking him to Singapore to figured why we're in Perth. You might as well take the five hour flight north. Oh, yeah, go check out go back to Singapore because we haven't been back since. Since we moved in 2015. So I'm really looking forward to that and it can be neat. I love I love showing him. Women who could do great things in sports and I have this big this big thought process. sense of women really need to be able to teach their children or coach their kids sports teams. And because I think that's important for them to see leadership in all facets, you know, they see they see us lead in the home, probably work or whatever else we might do. But that's one spot where you could also lead and I mean, I'm not going to coach high school football, because I know nothing about what football strategy. But you know, it's, it's really interesting, too. We're on where he's playing in his first soccer team share, and he's three and a half. And, I mean, he's mostly about digging holes in the dirt, and crying on the sideline and snacks, which is fine. All fine. We're there we try. Well, we tried to get him to go into the game. But um, you know, it's like that. So next year, I'm going to put my hand up and say, How can I? How can I help because I think it's important for them to see that leadership and, and not just the moms coaching the girls teams, but the moms coaching the boys teams. And so I think that's just, you know, it's one more step of leadership where we continue to show our children how we can lead. And when they're that little, it's, it's the time commitment is much different than obviously when they're much, much older. But I just I feel like that's just another way to, can you just show up and continue to show we're just as worthy as anybody else to lead a team, and to continue to motivate a group. So I don't know. I don't know, I can't motivate my own child to get on the field. So I'm not sure how that works for everybody else. But I can relate to that story about your son is my little fella. He's now 14. He here, like Australia is a big sporting country like clear sport culture, especially in a country town. Yeah, you know, winter is footy and netball, and summer is tennis, and cricket. Like that's it. And for a child, that's not a massive leap, interested in sport that's really challenging. And we learned pretty early on that Alex wasn't going to be a traditional sports player. We tried to get him to play soccer. And I remember he just used to run around, there was a little boy, he just used to run around with him. And they'd just be off down the end of the page, doing whatever else is concentrating really hard and take it really seriously and then just like, rolling around. Well, like, Okay, this is our Sunday morning. So yeah. So what does he do? What did he what kind of activities did he get into, he ended up he played baseball for a while, actually. Okay. And he really enjoyed that, because we worked out that he liked things that changed often. And okay, everybody got a turn, because the thing with soccer, it's unless you're very good, you're not going to get near that ball. So I think he worked out pretty quick that he wasn't at the level that perhaps some other kids were and then he was getting left out. So that led to the messing around sort of thing. But, you know, baseball is awesome, everyone lines up, everyone gets a bat, it changes quick, as often they'll get out, you know, three, three year out, and off, they go. And then you run out into the field for a while and you mess around out there for a bit and they become daisies. And so that was was perfect for him. He did that for I think probably three seasons. And now he's he's doing some music and some other things. But yeah, it was really except for you with creativity. Oh, it was just really good. My other son's gonna be completely different. It's like, we're trying to actually just wait till he gets a bit older because he will do anything. So we're sort of don't want to start just driving him around to everything. Be careful what you wish for. Yes. Yeah, he's gonna I think he will take that traditional route. But yeah, I don't know. It's an as a country town in Australia, baseball hasn't been a massive thing. You know, certainly they have the teams in, in the cities. But, you know, games like that are awesome. And I had no exposure to baseball growing up. So that was a real learning curve, for me working out how the game actually flowed. And was that was that? I don't know, the foul balls used to get me all the time. Like, why are they trying to catch it? And so they were found like, ah, you know, it's it's a learn and and that's I think that's the most interesting thing about sports is you can learning something new and like, it's like cricket. I knew nothing about cricket minus, you have the bowler and a couple of different things. And there's tiebreaks that I mean, I'm here for yes, we have. I mean, I'm here for that. It's just so funny. It's like wait, because Matt, you go to a sporting event that can last for five days, but And so but it's so neat to to continue to evolve and learn and when you can find a team or someone to get on board with so when we moved to Singapore, they have an F Formula One race there. We'd never watched Formula One. I'm a daughter of a mechanic and car guy and so I would why NASCAR and we watch all the race car stuff. Yeah, but I've never watched Formula One. And we thought, Well, my husband thought, well, we need to kind of learn this because it's happening like right in front of our house. And so it was so fun. Because once you get into it, and you start paying attention, you start learning all the little quirks, you start learning all the little things and the different characters, right, have different athletes. And so it's I wish that some of those sports were more readily available for us to see in the US. And because I do think there's just such a cool opportunity to learn and to dive in. And if you ever need a one on one on any sports, just holler because I have it. So we have a we have a bunch of them on our website, because it is it's sports, gambling, sports, betting and those kinds of things that make the game more fun or might get you involved somehow. And so it's how you make it. Once again, going back to how do you make it relatable? Yeah. interested? Just a little bit. Yep. Now I love that. Two things are just thought of when we're talking about that. I love Formula One. And we had our Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne, just last weekend, which was just so great. That I've had a friend I worked with who was watching drive to survive on Netflix, the show about the whole thing, which apparently isn't in Perth isn't perfectly true. Apparently, there's some drivers who have said that they, you know, change the plot slightly. We I mean, it's going to be interesting for television, I can understand that. Right, exactly. But since she was watching that, now, she's really interested in watching them in real life. So that is really cool. I've heard from quite a few people, actually. Yeah, and you're right, like the characters like it's literally like you have the goodie in the battery. And it can be set up any way you like to take it. But this is pretty exciting. I like I'm liking where this is going. But also what you said about over the years, like I'm a big course racing fan. And a lot of the races you'll go to around here they have a have the fashions on the field where you can get dressed up and win prizes and stuff. And I, a lot of people have come to the races with me because they want to dress up. And then when they get there, then I try and explain to them how to put a bed on or you know how to follow this particular trainer or like pick them out by the colors or, you know, you go down to the stalls and see the horses and but that's the thing that what that's what brings them in, and then they can, you know, get involved in whatever way they want. That's exactly it. Yeah, it's that little hook, just like your son. And he, once he realized that you need something that changed a little more rapidly. That got him involved. And so that's once you get that little hook, then you start to develop all that around it. And it is really neat. And it's neat to see how they've they've started. I mean, now that you have all these different TV streaming platforms that they're they're taking these stories like drive to survive and different things that they're making them interesting, where you're getting a little bit more of the behind the scenes and the human interest story of a sport versus just the stuff you see on the actual game. Yeah. And I think that's as a woman, I think it's you need to make connections with people. I think like that's what I mean. That's what certainly draws me to Formula One. Like I love hearing the drivers what they're thinking and they do have a lot of access to people these days, like people are very generous with their time. And I love watching them talk about Formula One again, but before a race didn't have me they do have the Sky News in the sky in the UK have the the rights for and they do this pit, the pit lane walk and they will walk through the actual crowd of all the drivers are actually on the grid, they're actually ready to drive. And then we'll walk through and chat to like maybe the race director or the chief engineer, whatever, and people are just, they'll just chat for like two or three seconds and off they go. And the access to people is incredible these days, which is amazing. And then like you get to know the race directors like people love toto like they people have their favorite people that they go for because they've made a connection with a person. So they go for that chain, you know. So I think that's a massive part and that's the thing that I think for so long, having been in charge and I'm putting that in inverted commas air quotes of sport only gave it was only sort of interesting from one perspective, it was interesting from what was on the field or what was on the track or whatever. But you get women involved in you get the behind the scenes and you find out that Christian Horner is married to one of the Spice Girls you know, you find out all this stuff that you wouldn't have men because men don't care about but as women we're like interested in people. So we bring so much to the sporting world. That's a really and I think that is a truly that that gives you a buy in if you will to a team or a driver because the more you I mean that's really think about it when you go to a sporting event. As a kid if you get a t shirt or you catch a ball or you get an autograph or whatever you have any sort of interaction with that team besides just showing up and eating up you know pretzel or some popcorn, it continues to get that buy in right now you have an affinity, you feel like you have an affiliation to that team. And so the more that we can buy into really learning to love a team and whoever that might be, whether it's an athlete or the story behind a team, I think it's so important. I mean, it truly is, it goes into that whole branding perspective, right of the more you can tell your story, and direct the conversation you want it to be, the more you're going to get people to buy in and get excited about it. So I think it's, I think it's awesome. And you're seeing a little bit of that here. There's still some sports that are US sports are a bit resistant to that. But you're for the most part, you're seeing a lot of them who are progressive, saying, all right, sure. Let's put a microphone on the guy and you know, in the outfield, or whatever, our preseason covered a preseason training on HBO. And so it's been it's it's neat to see. And, you know, I always talk about sports and the way I kind of rationalized because we first started last night's game, people were like, oh, it's sports for dummies and like, Well, no, because nobody's a dummy. Everyone's smart at their own thing. And so I think to me, I look at that and say, Okay, this is just another tool in your tool belt, you know, we watch the news to have information about what's going on in the world. And we whatever we're into, we might study or craft or follow people on Instagram and learn different things. And this is just one more tool in our tool belt to be successful. And I think that, to me, that's walking into a conversation being able to pull from a couple of different hats that I might have, and say, Okay, I'm talking to this guy here from Texas, I bet I could talk to him about, I don't want to talk to him about politics, because that's just messy. But you know, I could probably talk to about football, because it's football season, whatever that might be. And so it's just having that extra armor, to be able to kind of conversation, that extra tool to be able to shift a conversation into what is comfortable for you, allows you to create that someone, and hopefully a lasting relationship. Hmm, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Not? I love it. I think it's awesome. And you're right. It's not saying it for Dummies, you're not? You're not like teaching people the rules of something like you're actually you're like you said, you're relating it to, to an aspect of real life, I suppose. And so then it allows you to bring it into life without, you know, you're not memorizing stats or that sort of stuff, you know? Yeah, it's a really, what's the word? I can't think of what the word I was thinking of. But anyway, that word, this is like that. Your son is three and a half. So how do you find the time to do all this stuff? How does it work? Well, it definitely helped. So I went back to school to get my, my MBA when he was one and a half. And that happened to be about three months before everything locked down for COVID. So that was a whole perspective shift. I already knew my life was going to be busy. And busier, if you will. And so it's kind of funny how, you know, the reason I did that is I love to continue to learn, I love to continue to evolve. And I was talking to a friend who had earned her master's. And she's like, do it now. Because when they're seven or eight, you're missing birthday parties, you're missing baseball games, and they know you're gone at one and a half, they don't know you're gone. And so that was a huge, I think it took me as if people know, when you become a parent, whatever you did before, I don't know, you know, you're like you could get that everything done in two and half the time because you're just you have to consolidate your time and your work effort. And so I would say that I've just learned to work at this little more of an elevated perspective and an elevated pace. And so, you know, it's it's also for me, it's trying to figure out how to streamline things. That's a big piece of what we do because it's my brother and I and he works halftime. He's sort of my sports. He's my information cultivator. He's the one bringing in the information. Given that to me, I write it we handle all the writing I do all the editing for the podcast, social all the things. For me, it's I feel like that sorry, this is a very roundabout way to answer your question. No, no, go for it. But it It's streamlining work. And that is truly streamlining it to make sure I can get done. When I get done in my, my timeframe I've given myself, but also giving myself a little bit of a break. And that's something I didn't do during school that I've had to reteach myself is, you know, I get up early I work usually before he wakes up, I get everybody out the door that I work in, during the day, and then I pick him up from school about five o'clock. And somewhere in there, I try to get in a workout just to keep my sanity. And then we do dinner. And some days I go back to work after bedtime. And some days I don't. And that's one thing, like I said, I had to kind of retrain my brain because after, during school, after bedtime, I would get to my computer and do schoolwork, probably till midnight, one o'clock, and then get back up again at five o'clock and go all over again. And so I actually found that I'm more productive. When I give myself a break at night, I give myself time to decompress, and start over in the morning, I feel so much more mentally refreshed, I sleep better because I'm not closing my laptop at 1030 and trying to go to bed at 1045. And so it's it's it's a tough lesson to learn. But I've just learned to kind of reprioritize things and I use a project management software called Asana. And that's how I keep track of everything because it allows me to prioritize, but also see that full list that I can prioritize move things around as we need to. And so that is, to me is really important. And I'm trying to make my family a priority to and myself a priority because I believe that, you know, you truly need to put at the airplane you need put your oxygen mask on first, because if you can't breathe, nobody else is going to be able to do that. So I really do try to factor in those little things that might be a 30 minute workout. And sometimes that's in the morning, sometimes it's in lunch over the lunch hour, sometimes it's, you know what I've got, I'm going to pick them up from school sweaty, because I've just jumped I it is what it is, that keeps my sanity. And so I'm working from home too, that's any way you can get a break to just take a 10 minute walk outside around the neighborhood and come back. And especially on those big writing days where I'm trying to create a lot of content, that break is just huge. And so it's really funny to say I do less to do more. But I've kind of found attempted to find this happy medium of continuing to fuel myself and allow myself to grow, while also busting my butt while I am in front of my computer. That's that's really valuable. I think because a lot of I think there's been this culture, for a while of just going hard getting it done, you know, this hustle, I'm putting that in air quotes again, you know, you've just got to keep going and keep going and get it all done. And then at the expense of what you know, your relationships, your health, you know, everything falls apart. So it's awesome to hear that you've got that, that sort of balance that works for you. Because I'm just reminded of this, you know, when you sit, you're scrolling Instagram, and you see things come up and you just pause for a moment, then you keep going. There was there was one the other day about, we've started to see rest as well, we have been seeing rest as a reward, rather than a thing that's actually required to, to keep us sane, to keep us healthy to increase productivity. So I feel like there's, there's another little shift going on, where people are saying, hang on a minute, this isn't sustainable. We can't, we can't keep doing this. Right. And when when we're working from home, there's no separation between work and home at that point. So you might change rooms, but you're still in the same scenario. And so, you know, for for fitting for all of us it you've got to find that, that that space to just step away. And that's kind of what I've started doing at work too though, when when I first started working from home full time, you know, I'd get up and do the dishes or I'd throw it a little laundry or something like that. Yeah, now I've just said no laundry happens on Saturday. You need something watch beforehand, throw it in like it can sit there or you watch it yourself. But it's one of those where I'm not distracting myself with other tasks. Yeah, try not to distract myself with that it's focusing on when I'm at work I try to just do it like I'm at an office like I'm at work I'm working. Yeah, and so that way I'm not the dishes get done at the end of the day or when I make lunch or whatever that might be so yes, trying to define those little compartmentalize the best we can which I know that's really not our best skill as women. Yeah, but I think it's really really good what you're saying about like setting those boundaries even though we are at home and doesn't mean we have to be in like mum mode and you know, set the set the washing machine Shane and quickly go hang it out. Because it's a nice day, you know? Right. Like, yeah, you're right, keeping that the cup compartmental I can't say that we get to compartmentalize one, it's hard. I mean, you're creative as well. I mean, it's when you're in a creative space, you really do have to focus. Because if you start to think, oh, the dishes are dirty, oh, I just heard the dishwasher go off, I'll go empty that you can't you really, I mean, I work in house by myself, but I still put my headphones in. Because it just blocks out all that ancillary noise and allows me to focus because I can't write if I'm hearing the garbage truck drive by and all those things. And so it's when sometimes you just when you're in that creative headspace, you need to just just check the world out the best way you can. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's cool. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, I was naming. One of the lovely topics I love to talk about with all my moms is mom guilt. And I realized that it comes in all forms, or it may not come at all. And that's great. That's one of the great things about talking about it. So what's your thoughts on mommy guilt? Amy? I think it I think it is alive and well, at least in my house. And I have, I mean, it ranges from you just lose your patience with them. And you snap and you're like, Okay, that was probably not the best move by me. But also, you were being really horrible. And I can't take it anymore to the fact that sometimes you have to say, Hey, bud, I gotta finish this, this needs to be done for work. When I'm done, I'll come play with you, whatever that might be insert activity here. And it's, but it's alive. And well. And it's really interesting. So I do a lot of chats on my Instagram stories. And I talk a little about the mom guilt and how that is tough on days when it snows it's a snow day and you're stuck at home with your kid. And they've watched three movies by 2pm. And that's it is what it is. I mean, I think we're all fine. We've probably done that somewhere along in our lives. But that that mom guilt is alive and well. And I, I've had a couple of people say, Well, you're just imagining mom guilt, it doesn't need to exist. My kids watch TV today, too. And I didn't feel bad about it. Michael, that congratulations to you. I'm really that is fantastic that that's how you can run your household. And that's how you feel. That's, that's fine. This is how I feel. And you're right that it does, you don't do give me a dose of confidence to say that I need to be easier on myself, I appreciate that. But I think that's the interesting part of being a mom. And you know, my mom, my mom, I talk a lot about how being a mom has shifted so much since she went since I was little till now because a lot of the, you know, from her perspective, a lot of these women's movement movements have really taught us to take care of each other, versus fight each other when it really comes down to it. And so I do think the mom guilt looks a little different. You know, I joke that, you know, we we the cookies come out of the little package that you buy from the store, and you put them on the pan and my mother takes my son and makes them with the mixer and the whole nine yards and like, this is how mom does them. This is how grandma doesn't. And they're both okay. Yeah. And that's okay. And we go do this where you guys don't do that. It's it's truly one of the things and I think the challenge is probably getting out of our own heads. So much. us feeling like we need to put ourselves in this box and whatever that might be. Or, you know, we see people on Instagram who, you know, cut their children's sandwiches into fun shapes and sizes every day. And then they also take to the zoo, but somehow they work full time. And then they go and you're like, how how do you possibly make dinner and go to the zoo and go to work from nine to five and then cut their sandwiches to look like the Taj Mahal? Like I don't understand how this works. So I think it's just it's setting our own perspectives of what we're able to do. And what we just have to let go. And like when I was in school, we take away a lot because it was like, Okay, well we have peanut butter and jelly, pancakes, eggs, or we can go down the street and get a salad and that's just, that's just where we live. We lived for two years because, you know, it was that was what we had time for. And that's just how sometimes that works. And we're all going to be okay for it. You know, I joke that I never ate a blueberry that was not in a muffin until I went to college. And I still do are not okay, I varies now it's fine. I'm a reasonably healthy human. You know, it's it's one of those where we all have to just give ourselves a little bit of a break. And I don't know, what is What's your perspective on mom guilt? Because I think you said everyone's take is different. I hate it, I wish it would never existed. Because I think that I feel like I get a bit, I start to get a bit passionate about things. I'll try and curtail myself, but I feel like it's an excuse. For mums to be bashed on, basically, I feel like, I mean, I feel like it has its place in some regards. Like, it's almost like a little voice that might help you decide what's important to you, or how you're tracking in that time, like, like, if, if I don't call it the devil on your shoulder, like the little voice in your ear that might say, now, you know, you've been out four times this week, you probably should be home tonight. But then the other side says, well, actually, you've got a show on at the moment. So you rehearsing for it. So this is important to you. So you go, okay, that's fine. But then another time, the voice might go, Well, actually, you haven't put your child to bed this week, because you've been out going to the movies or catching up with friends. And then you go, Oh, actually, that's true. Maybe I should slow down a bit, you know. So situations or whatever, every, everyone's different in different things, and which is awesome. But I feel like it's an excuse for mums to get a bad deal or the roar end of the deal. It's like, you are allowed to do things for yourself. And it's very important that you do things for yourself. And it's up to you and your family to work out. Where that line is, I suppose of what's manageable for you guys, I think and that you write when you look at social media, I feel like it's, it's it's an opportunity to compare, and to feel judged, and to beat in to judge others. Because I feel like as moms, we're really, we're really bad at judging, like we judge each other. It's I'm not talking about, you know, just people that don't have children, judge us we judge each other. So that'd be good if we stopped doing that. But yeah, we compare ourselves a lot. And we've got to remember that the lives that we see on Instagram are generally a very curated version of that person's life. Absolutely. So we everyone has a different, you know, level of support lives in a different part of the world has a different cultural background, everyone has different values of what's important to them and different styles of mothering. So no, two of us are exactly the same. So we can't compare ourselves, you know? No, to an excellent perspective, really, truly. Yeah, I think it just does more more harm than good. It really does. And it makes no one feel any better. Right? I just I it always sticks in my mind when, when Roy was little he was I really didn't take any time to stop working. But I mean, I had a C section at 7pm, because I was in labor for 24 hours in a C section at 7pm. My mom stayed with me that night, because my husband had to be at a meeting with customers the next morning. And so you know, what I saw, we had a woman come in and help us help me at night for like three nights a week, just so I could sleep. Because he did it, he did not sleep at all, he was a crazy little human. But I had one of my friends from from back in Phoenix, say to me, must be really nice to have all this help. And I said, Well, you know, in all fairness, I don't have any family help. And my husband's gone 50 to 60% of the time. So I need a break. I can't I can't do it all. And so like, I appreciate you dropping that judgment on me. But I don't have any lot of a ton of support. So I have to pay for my support. So that's just, that's what I'm, that's the situation I'm in. And I would love to have a husband who is home all the time to also help and have my mom around the corner. But that just wasn't feasible. And so you're right, though, as we step back and look at what everyone does, and how we handle all the things we need to appreciate and understand that there are a lot of other pieces that we don't, that we don't see. And you know, I I say I joke that it might your children's school might be the same way we're not allowed to have. We're no longer allowed to have homemade treats brought in. So those are things we get homemade treats. Yeah. So they ought to be individually packaged and from from an external source. Yep, that is the best thing that's ever happened to me in my life. Because I'd be making the sad light blue frosting cookies. I mean, it's like the best thing that's ever happened to me because, you know, my mom talks all about how she's a working mom who had two kids in both in activities and my dad went to work at 530 in the morning and came home at seven o'clock. And she was doing homework and all the things and how it will be some sort of something and she had to make something. She was like okay, well, we're in my spare time. You know, she shows up my mom's A Fabulous Baker. But, you know, she shows up with some cookies or something and someone else shows up with his Barbie Kassala cake. She's like, well, here's here's my sad cookies, you know. And where she said it's just it, things have shifted so much. And there's certain things that have, she also didn't have Amazon were food grocery delivery. That might be the only reason I survived with a newborn was Amazon delivery because I would never remember to order diapers till 2am When you're sitting in the chair and going, oh, please just go to sleep and crap or out of diapers has changed for the better. And so we're just there, there are definitely things that make it a little bit better. So there's that when you said before you compared like that your son can go with your mom and do some baking. I feel like it's something we forget as mums, it's really important that when we're not with our children, if he's with your mum, that's a really important thing for him to be doing to, you know, we can't give them everything. And this might even sound like I'm trying to justify having other people look after my children. But it's, it's really important for them to create relationships that don't involve us. Absolutely. So good for for that other person to to have that relationship with your child. It is and it's hard, it's really hard to sometimes, and I don't know about your boys, but mine is like would be glued to my hip all day, every day. If he could be he just like always wants to be with mom, which I, I appreciate it. And one day, he's going to be 15 and want nothing to do with me, I'm going to go fishing with dad or something. But I do think I think about the times that I value where I spent time with my my grandparents and how much fun I had watching The Golden Girls and putting on a face mask with my grandma who took her dentures out in the teeth. And we sat at a great old time. And that was, I think that is so important. And I think that gives them a different perspective to you know, it's, it gives them something to come back and talk about because there are going to be things that grandmas and grandpas say or have a different perspective on or thinking in a different way. And it's a good thing to talk about, like what we what we do as a family versus all the things but it's true everyone gives everyone brings a different value to their life. And just like we can't, we can't do it all. As individuals, we can't bring all the things to them. And so for them to go learn that and just and I think I had to step back at one point. And I really hated you know, my, my mother and I was so sweet. She takes my son now to school almost every morning. And I hated feeling like I was saying, Could you do want to take him to school because like it was a favor to me and I but I had to step back and say, This is awesome for her. She's loving, she gets him by himself for 20 minutes in the car in the morning. And they talk about things from classical music to trees and things that I would probably not talk about in the car with him. And she loves it, it helps me. And so I was once again stepping way back from the mom guilt, she's so happy, she can help because she knows what it's like, she can take that piece and that's something she can do and do well. And it's just it's it is a you have to step back sometimes and say I got a I gotta give you give you the distance, right. And I had a girlfriend when when Ray was born, he said to me, if you do your job, right, at 18 years old, your child will move out of your house and never move back in. And you have to make decisions sometimes based on knowing that that is a future, a future forward thinking forward thinking where you might have to say, You know what, I'm kind of uncomfortable letting you go play in the backyard by yourself. But you know what, just go do it and say where I can hear you. But those little pieces of freedom then give them that onus to continue to grow. And I say this as a person with a three and a half year old. So people will 25 year olds don't judge me because I'm I'm you know, I have a three and a half year old and I'm just we're all doing the best we can so send pointers if your kids are still alive at 25 Because I don't know how I'm gonna make it that far. But um, you know, so it's, it's it is going back to that, letting other people teach them things and some of those things might be not what you want them to learn, right? I mean, you know, it's not ideal that, you know, Grandpa takes him for ice cream and then exam candy at the grocery store and drops them back off at home. You're like, well, thanks a lot, but yeah, it's part of it's part of the things that they do and it's part of that sort of thing that they're gonna have build a memory and maybe learn why you shouldn't eat candy and ice cream on an empty stomach and that's you don't feel so good later either. So yeah, there's always a lesson in there somewhere. There's always a lesson in there somewhere in our mothers, we're always right. That's, yeah. I love that. I've got so many oh my gosh, my dad with my children. It's like he's, I don't recognize him sometimes, because he's such a different grandparent to what he was, as a father, just so much more relaxed and easygoing, and the stuff that would have, you know, got him all riled up when we were kids is like, Ah, whatever. Like, I remember one day, my sister and I were sitting there watching going, Who is this man? Like? It's so love. It's fantastic. Yeah, it's, it's, I just want when my parents fencing like my grandchildren, keep me young and keep me alive and keep me going. Because it is, it's that whole new lease on life, that is this little ball of energy or multiple balls of energy, if you have extra more than one kiddo. And it's just so neat to see them. I mean, my mother wears wears him out. She's in she's in her mid 60s And he's he's zonked out at three and a half. And she's like, Hold on, I'm gonna keep going, let me go make dinner and we're gonna make cookies. And he's like, Oh, love that. It's super, it's awesome. I think it's so great. One of the things I really love talking to moms bear is the concept of their own identity, and how that might have been challenged and changed when you actually had a child? Did you sort of go through some shifts in pace or yourself? That's a great, that's a great question. And I think it's something that people don't talk enough about. Because I do feel like, there is this weird, there is this weird shift. And I, it's funny, because when I was when I first started telling some people I knew in a leadership program I was in there, I was pregnant. One of the guys said to me, how are you going to raise two babies at once being a business and your child? And I was like, Well, I really haven't thought about it. But to be all, in all fairness, I'll figure it out. That's what I've done with everything else in my life. I'll figure it out. And then you start to watch, as you know, people kind of talk to you about how's the baby going to impact your career. And finally, I just got tired of it. And it was just I just, I started doing my smart asset answers of what why don't you ask my husband, I was going to impact his career. Like, why are you asking me? And yes, I understand that I am the primary parent and that I am the one who does all the things. We that's just how most women handle life, right? But I was like, please stop that. That's not fair. To me. It's not fair to my child. And, and it is, it's hard. It's hard to figure out kind of where you fit in there. Because I'm not a, I'm not a mom who's probably going to wear the shirt with my kids face on it. You know, and that's just, that's just not me. There's a mom for every type of person. And I appreciate and respect all of those that do. And I really do, because I think we all own it, how we own it. And for me, it was really important to continue to work and continue to push and actually meeting with a friend last week. And she's in an investment group. And we were I was talking to her and she said, It's just she said, I'm a better mother, when I drop my child off to school when I go to work. And I said me too, that's just how I operate. And that's how I was raised, though I was I don't know anything really different. And but I said, you remember that one that first time when you got out and you went, you dropped your kid off with lifting with dad or babysit or whatever, that grandparent when they were little. And you went out and you went to a meeting or something and you got in the car and you were like, Yes, I still have it. I can still do this. She was like I do remember that moment. Yeah. So that to me was that moment of like, okay, I don't have to completely get rid of one to be the other. And you can be all the things. And what I've tried to to just step back and look at is having a child has made me a better worker. It's made me a better boss. It's made me a better investor, a better board member, all these things, because I've been able to have sympathy to a certain perspective. And I think COVID has also taught us all that in general. But it allows me to put a perspective and his spin on things that really, it puts things as we kind of talked about earlier. It puts everything in perspective. And there's something that says, you know, why is that? Why are we even arguing about this? This is silly. Let's go ahead and XYZ and so I really do feel like it's stepping back and being able to own what I'm good at, and be good at what I'm good at, and still attempt to be a good mom. And but not let any of that define me. I think it comp they all complement each other. Yeah, but I try not to let any of those pieces define me. And I think I learned that really early in my career. I had some pretty rough female bosses for a while including one who fired me and then fired the subsequent two other women she hired after me to fill my position. And I just realized that that was a huge identity loss for me because I was my job. And I think at that point, I realized that I can't ever truly make myself synonymous with anything, I want to try to be able to always be my own person. And I want to be a me but I also am happy to be worries mom, and Reagan's wife, and last night's game, co founder and sister to Scott, my last night's game, co founder and a daughter, and all those things. Because all of us have all of those facets. It's just how you own it. And it works for me, it might not work for somebody else. And I think that continues to go back to the point where we continue to be sympathetic to each other. And understand that it truly takes all of us to make the mom World Go down, go around, and the more we can support each other, the better off we can be and, and also make I don't know, to me, it's nice to hear someone say, Man, I lost I, I I lost it on my kids this morning. That drop off was rough. You're like mine to okay, I'm not the only one who's crazy. Okay, thank you. Yeah. And I think there's some sort of community and that of saying, Okay, it's hard for you to okay, I appreciate that. Because that means I'm not crazy. And I think is that continue stepping back and looking at the real life situations versus the Instagram perfect stuff. Because that is right, that's, we're really a community of like minded, same people. When it comes to motherhood, we all look a little different and one, one faster another. But ultimately, we're all still trying to do the same thing. And we're all probably feeling guilty about something similar. And we're probably getting driven crazy about something similar. And so and we all just want our kids to eat their fruit, vegetables, and grow up to be good humans, you know, like that. Get a decent job be a good human. Yep, some vegetables and some fruits. So you can you know, live a long life. I mean, you love it. I don't know, how about you like, what's your what's your take on that? I'm, from your perspective. The thing about being honest with each other is something that I find really intriguing because I'm the sort of person that I tell things how it is I'm extremely honest. You know, I've been really opening sharing different parts of my life. I've had experience with mental health issues. And I've talked about that openly a lot. And I think it's important to talk about stuff that I remember when I went to my first we have this thing over here called mothers group, when you have a baby, they put you in a group of all the people that had babies at the same time. And so you don't know these people, they're just random people. The only thing in common is that your babies were born, you know, within a day or two of each other. And I remember sitting with this bunch of women the first time and everyone had to go round and talk about their baby. And everyone seemed to be just perfect. Everything was going great for everybody. And I just thought what is going on here? Like, am I the only person whose baby wakes up after 45 minute naps? Am I the only person who's having trouble establishing breastfeeding? Right? I thought what the hell is going on here? So I did say a little bit of stuff. And when I said that, one of the other ladies sort of I could see her look at me like, Oh, thank god you said that. Because now I feel like I can say that, you know? And then the more we talked, it all came out. And I think people have this idea that you've got a nice set up your the way people see you is got to be a certain way and has to be right and you can't let any like crack show. I don't know. resets never bothered me. I think, you know, I've always thrived on like, really deep, honest relationships and really good honest talks. And that's why I love doing this too, because I get to talk to people in really good under the surface ways. Yeah. So it's like my sister at the moment like her daughter is a year almost exactly a year younger than my little fella who's six, nearly six and a half and we just compare drop off stories like you're just talking about like, Oh, I couldn't get them in the car this morning. And I told her to put her sucks And I'm like, yeah, no, I had that with the shoes, you know, and being honest with each other and not sitting there going, Oh, Everything went perfect for me and then making the other mom feel like a failure. You know, we got to know each other, support each other and have each other's back. Yeah. And I would also say on the flip side of that is to really celebrate each other. And that is something interesting. I have a group of girlfriends from my MBA class. And I should say that I traveled out of state every other week to Chicago, for my MBA, so I, I really like my husband was primary parent. And that was a whole shift for us. Luckily, it was COVID. And that doesn't sound right. Not luckily, it was because of COVID. He wasn't traveling. So he was a primary parents. So I really got a chance to actually embrace and make friends, sort of outside of my family, too, because I wasn't having to rush home to them as well. But I have a group of girlfriends that were on the same text message group. And to this day, that's the one where you go to if you have a big win, like, Hey, I got a promotion. And this group is so on board with, you know, we're I think women are so humble in the sense that we don't celebrate our own victories to someone else to celebrate others. And so but I love this group, because it's like, Hey, I got a promotion, oh, my god, you guys, I just landed this, or whatever that might be. And I love it. That group is very much you don't feel uncomfortable celebrating or telling your victories. And I think that's something you know, I really strive to do is seek out these things that my friends have done and, and celebrate them. And I'm a huge fan of snail mail. I love sending greeting cards, the more inappropriate the better. And so I have a whole entire box in my desk that's like, I don't know, probably 200 cards that when I find ones I like I buy them. Yeah, because I just I love that little act of recognition of who doesn't love to get mail. I mean, it goes back to like the day when you have a pen pal, right? Yeah. And so I just love that. And I love celebrating other people. Because everyone works really hard. I don't care if you're a mom, your dad, you don't have kids, you're a dog, Mom, I don't care. You everyone works their butts off. And so if we can celebrate even these little wins, whatever that might be, and you worked out five days in a row, you ate a carrot today. I don't whatever it sound like I'm gonna design some sort of weird Health Net, but I'm not. You finished a whole bottle of wine, let's celebrate. You know, I think there's just i just i There's life is so serious and so full. So being honest. And then then also owning your stuff that you are awesome. And it's great for you to be here to see this. And let's celebrate you and I encourage you if you haven't, there's the Today Show, which is like one of the morning TV programs here. On our one of our big networks here in the US. Two of the there's two morning anchors, they're both females. They're both just this last weekend inducted into the Hall of Fame for broadcasting. Oh, wow. And the one lady her name is Hoda copy. And she gave this speech and talked a lot about how really, everybody, these people, the celebrities that she's interviewed who are so astoundingly accomplished. Don't feel these women don't feel like they're worth it. She doesn't feel like she's worth it. And so let's talk about how we need to earn it because you're worth it. And she went through this whole format speech and it's it's quick. But it's so well done that I actually bookmarked it on my Instagram, because it's one of those things when you need a pep talk. That's that speech where you are worthy, you are worth it. And so celebrate you and that I mean really, that goes back into the mom guilt thing full circle of we have to just give ourselves a break sometimes and celebrate the little victories in our day, you know, what can add underwear on today? Some days that is harder than others. So let's just call that a when we have underwear on, we think we might have two shoes on, they may not match. They may not even be the right feet known to go out and like a rain boot and flip flops. And so, I mean, yeah, we just celebrate those victories that we have and the beauty we can find in our own little worlds of, you know, just stop and figure out what that might be. And, you know, sometimes that's a 15 minute time to 15 minutes to sit down with your kiddo and read a book. And that might be all you have that day. But it's still 15 minutes of book time and Qt so you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that's so true. Over here in Australia, we have this. It's a terrible part of our culture. I feel like it is slightly getting better, but it's not really. It's the tall poppy syndrome about if anyone else is doing really good around you. You've got to cut them down and bring him back to the same level as everyone else. And that's been a massive part of Australian culture for a very long time. And I think that that's lends itself to the fact that people don't like to talk themselves out, because they don't want to be seen as being, you know, doing well and maybe being better at something than someone else, because people will pull them down and they'll say, Oh, yeah. What about this? Yeah, you know? Yeah. And I remember years ago, because I've been singing my whole life, and we have our towns only what? 30,000 people. So you're gonna get in the newspaper, at some point. If you live in Gambia, you're gonna get in there, at some point, hopefully, for something good. Yeah, not in like the court pages. But because I've been in singing for a long time, I've done a lot of public events and fundraisers and different community things. So I've been in the paper a lot. And early on. One of my singing teachers said to me, make sure you cut your cut your articles out, don't be vain in like, don't be scared to cut them out and keep them because she said, No one else is going to do that for you. And, you know, I thought, Oh, I feel a bit funny. You know, I Oh, look, this is me, this is me. But it's like, I'm so glad that I have them now, because I have them in this little folder. And every now and then if I'm looking through the cupboard to find something else, I'll see them like, Oh, look at me, and then I'll show the kids. And it's like, it's so nice to have that. So you worked hard to earn? Yeah, yeah. So let's see. Yeah, let me no one's gonna be, right. I mean, our parents can be really proud of us, if that's what the their verbage they use, but you've got to be proud of yourself. And that's something I think also comes with age. I think when I, when I hit 40, I all of a sudden just grew up here that I didn't really know I had, and just learn to be okay with stuff. And stop trying to fit in the mold of exactly what something should be, or should it be and, you know, sort of tried to just let some stuff go. And I mean, I was always envious of older like actresses, when you would hear them in interviews, say, Well, as I got older, I just learned not to give a crap. And I think that is like what a great place to be. And, and so you know, if someone's listening, and they're, they're younger, and feeling unsure, you've got this, you own it, because guess what you've what you're gonna have at 40 is what you're gonna have at 30 You're gonna be a little bit more a little bit wiser, but own it. You know, clip your clip your your write, clip your newspaper articles and save them because that's really cool. That's an awesome accomplishment to be able to do something so magnificent. And it may mean nothing to you, and may be nothing to you. But you know, you don't remember that sometimes you're low lights or someone's highlights like they really, yeah, it's always perspective. So celebrate you and put it off, blow it up and put it on the wall. If that's what you're into. Do it. Who cares? Yeah, that's what gets you out of bed. Do it? Yep. No, I definitely agree with that 40 year old thing. It's like the amount of women I've spoken to you that have said that same thing. It's it's a thing. You honestly, you just go not do not care. Do? You know? I don't know. You just time for this. I mean, we we looked at a school for the title human for starting, like pre K and kindergarten. And one of the schools is known to have sort of a bit more of a catty mom group and I was bullied in when I in all through middle school. And so I joke to my husband, like, I'm gonna need to go to therapy to send our child to that school because I'm not going to make it. Yeah. And it turned out that there were a lot of things that made that school not not work for us, but I just thought, why? I don't want anything to do with any of that. I really don't care if my husband I don't care if that's if you want to talk shit about us, then go for it. Have at it, but leave my kid alone. Yeah, and we'll be fine. But it's just it's one of those are like why? Yeah, let's this just seems like way too much work. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. So many times in my life. I've had this saying something's gone down. And I'm like, I'm not in high school anymore. Like this. I'm beyond this. This is not this is not worthy of my time. It's not something I want to spend my energy on. You guys go for it and do what you got to do. But I'm not doing your free toilet paper by house just like high school if that's what you want to do. That's fine. Whatever. Yeah, like Yeah, yeah, it's a funny thing. What I really tried to talk a lot about and where I've sort of started to try to own my own perspective, is to support young women coming up through their careers. Because, you know, I think I mentioned it earlier that I had some I had one or two great female bosses. But I really struggled with bosses and male bosses too. And so, you know, what, what I kind of tried to do myself is be a resource, and that is to the babysitter's who come and watch the Munchkin. You know, is it, one or two of them are getting married? They're like, can you look at my registry? Can I ask you this work? Question? How do I ask for a raise? I mean, whatever that might be, I just want to be that resource. Because I think far too often women are not really set up where we don't really do mentors like men do. And I think that's something that we as women who are further along in our career in our talents that we can do, we can provide some perspective. And I think that perspective might just be the same as this isn't high school, this isn't worth it type of thing to say, yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because I think because the business world has been a man's world for so long, they've formalized this mentor stuff, and it's been something they do. And it's like, we've got to try and find ways to do it. Because it's so important. It is really important. And I think about me growing up, like, all I learned from my mum about my job was how to dress and how to answer the phone and how just, you know, that sort of stuff, not how to like, say, ask for a raise how to, you know, communicate with people in your workplace, it was all the how to type? How to Answer the phone, you know? So yeah, I think that is so so important. While I think the honor the honest side of things, and, you know, I think that it's giving reviews and giving honest feedback in areas where people really can work on things and, and grow and evolve. So all those things is continuing to give positive but constructive feedback, and being honest, and that's one thing that's really funny, we were kind of out of our friends, our friends here, we're sort of on the the older end and the first have children, whereas in other places, we were kind of at the tail end of it. And we've had friends who've had kids who say, can we go to dinner with the two of you, because I know you'll give us the honest feedback about parenting and pregnancy and all of that stuff. And like, sure, that's what we're here for. I'm not going to pretend that you know, pregnancy and newborns are all like puppies and babies and toilet paper commercial, like they're not all fluffy. It's not all perfect. And so here's some perspective, I want you to know that it's fantastic. But it's also tough. There's going to be tough times where, you know, my husband would say, Well, you know, took me a long time, a little while to get, like, really feel like I bonded with the baby, and all those things. But all that stuff is things I think are things that people don't talk about, once again, going back to your baby class. And it's all normal. And so maybe it won't happen to you. But if it does know that that's okay, and know that that's normal, and your hormone fluctuations, whatever that might be. So, you know, it's really truly pick up that next generation, but be honest to maybe not to, to a fault, but provide some honest feedback and constructive criticism of work if that's where that that relationship lies and, and truly being. Because I think that's going to set us all up for success when it comes down to it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good on you. So you can find last night's game at last night's game.com We are on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter as well as LinkedIn. And I run our Instagram account. So all the stories are the kind of behind the scenes of the life of another founder, a female founder. And so you'll see the tiny human running around probably with you know, his rear end hanging out on his scooter in the front yard. You start from there to a little bit of everything. So Instagram was definitely a really fun place for us to share a story. And let's say last night's game.com And then we're on our podcasts is sports curious. And we are on all major podcast platforms and we come out on that releases on Wednesdays and it's about a five minute podcast very rarely do we go over five minutes so I'm here to make sure that your life is short, sweet and out the door and you get on your way with all the other very important things you have going on in life. Oh love that. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been it's been really lovely chatting with you. Yeah. Thanks. Thank you. I look I look forward to making the visit your way here in the next year. Yeah, well, if you if you ever need boy yell out. Well, for sure. Absolutely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

John Cuk Father's Day Ep. - US conductor + educator S2 Ep49 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Each Father's Day I like to do a few special eps. To mark the occasion in the Northern Hemisphere my guest for this special Father’s Day Episode is John Cuk, from New York, USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist, and a dad of 2 girls. John started playing the piano at age 5, played the trumpet in a band, sang in choirs, grew up going to the theatre, opera and going to concerts, even though his parents weren’t musical he was exposed to the arts. In school he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. He went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and The Manhattan School of Music as well as post graduate work from Westminster Choir College and gained his Masters in Piano Performance. John juggled being a professional musician with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the class room brought him. John's career in academia spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, Somers High School, Middle Schools in Chappaqua, New Rochelle, Rye and at The Anglo-American School in New York. He retired from his position as the Director of Choirs at Manhattanville College in Purchase, NY in 2018 after 16 collective years there. John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor, he’s conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, Avery Fisher Hall, Alice Tully Hall, Marmorsaal, Schloss Mirabell (Salzburg, Austria), Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ (Constanța, Romania), Kennedy Library (Boston), Música Sin Edad (Buenos Aires, Argentina), Temppeliauki, (Helsinki, Finland) and The International Youth Orchestra Festival (Lucca, Italy). Active in musical theatre and opera, John has held positions with Music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, Opera Estate in Rome Italy, Utopia Opera and Dell' Arte Opera in New York, New York, Buck Hill/Skytop Festival in Pennsylvania, Westchester Conservatory's Summer Vocal Music Academy in White Plains, New York, as well as Musical Director for countless musical theatre productions both at the high school and college level. Guest conducting includes Ridgefield Symphony (CT), Chorus and Orchestra of Teatrului Național de Operă și Balet ‘Oleg Danovski’ Constanța, Romania, Orchestra Sinfonica di Bacau, Romania in Italy, Moldova Radio Symphony in Chisinau Moldova, National Chorale's Annual Messiah-Sing-In at Avery Fisher Hall as well as choral festivals for Western Connecticut, Suffolk, Duchess and Westchester Counties in New York. He is active as a coach, accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. John performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians and is currently a staff pianist for The Bronx Opera. It is always interesting on these occasions to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it is something that many of us are interested in, it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with mums. I'm very grateful for John for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing and music overall. Connect with John Connect with the podcast Music throughout this episode is taken from the public domain and therefore not subject to copyright. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thanks so much for joining me. Today I present a special Father's Day episode to mark the occasion in the US, Canada and the United Kingdom. It is always interesting on these occasions, to get the male parent perspective on things. I think it's something that many of us are interested in. And it certainly comes up as a topic in many of my chats with moms. My guest for this special episode is Shaun cook. He's from Connecticut in the USA. John is a conductor, musician, music educator and accompanist and a dad of two girls. John started playing the piano at age five. He played the trumpet in a band, singing choirs grew up going to the theater, opera and to concerts. And even though his parents weren't musical, he was exposed to the arts from a young age. In school, he sang in the choir and played in the band. He dreamt of going on to study to be a music teacher, as well as holding on to the desire to be a performer in his own right. John went on to study degrees from Manhattanville College and the Manhattan School of Music as well as postgraduate work from the Westminster choir college, and he gained his master's in piano performance. John juggled being a professional musician, with being a full time teacher for many years, enjoying the grounding that being in the classroom brought him. John's career in academia has spanned 40 years. He has taught at Scarsdale High School, summers high school, middle schools in Topanga, New Rochelle, right and at the Anglo American school in New York. In addition, he retired from his position as the director of choirs at Manhattanville College in purchase New York in 2018. After 16 collective years there, John has a varied background as a musician and educator. As a conductor. He's conducted choral and orchestral ensembles in Europe, South America and the United States. He has performed at such prestigious venues as Carnegie Hall, and Avery Fisher Hall, as well as in Salzburg, Austria, in Romania, in Buenos Aires, Argentina, Helsinki, Finland, and in Lucca, in Italy, active in musical theater and opera, John has held positions with music in the Alps International Festival in Austria, opera estate in Rome, Italy, Utopia Opera in New York, New York, among others, as well as musical director for countless musical theater productions, both at the high school and college level. John is active as a coach accompanist, pianist and guest conductor. He performs frequently with singers and chamber musicians, and is currently a staff pianist for the Bronx opera. I greatly appreciate John's openness and honesty throughout this chat. And for allowing me to delve deep and ask the big questions. We also chat a lot about a shared passion of choral music, choral singing, and music in general. I hope you enjoy the music you'll hear throughout this week's episode is in the public domain and therefore is not subject to copyright. Thanks so much for joining me today, John, all the way from United States. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me inviting me. So whereabouts are you over there? I'm in the Northeast. I live in a town in the state of Connecticut about an hour's drive north of New York City. Yeah, right. Do you get to go to New York very often. Does your work take you there? Or? Yes, it's not as easy a commute as I would I would like it anyway. But I have gotten to work in New York often because it is it is the center, you know, of all musical things and theatrical things here. Yeah. So on that. So you're a conductor, a musician, yourself, you play the piano. Sorry. Can you share with us starting off with sort of how you got into what you've done with your life over the last how many years? Many years? Well, I, you know, I started playing at a very young age, I was five when I started playing piano, and was involved in a variety of musical things. I played the trumpet, in a band assigned choirs. We went to the theater, or we went to concerts. So there was, even though my parents were not musical, we were exposed to a great deal of music and the arts. I went to a sort of an academic high school that had a terrific choir. And so I latched into that as well as a good band. And going through the thought of going to music to study to be a teacher, be a music teacher. I had the experience of so many great music teachers, both in elementary school music, elementary school and high school, that I thought it was a worthy thing to do. And so I went to a small little suburban liberal arts school in New York State, got a degree in music, education, but also did a lot of playing. I had also learning Oregon, as at a young age and played in churches, and realized that, you know, the teaching piece was really important to me, but the music piece was was equally important. And so I tried to pursue both I got out of undergraduate school, took a few years off, and then decided I was going to get my Master's in piano performance at the Manhattan School of Music in New York City. And so at that point, I was kind of on the track that I wanted to be a full time performer. But there was a part of me that just couldn't accept, sitting in a practice room says for six to seven hours by yourself, I love a making music with other people, especially singers. But I also really love the classroom as well. And so I finished my masters and rather than hit the road and play, I got a teaching job and tried to maintain both professions. Good. So for many, many, many, many years, it was tough to do. You know, one of the things I think that I loved about teaching was that it really grounds zoo, you know, Monday morning comes in, the students come into your room, they don't care what performance you had on the weekend, or how great you were, they could care less. I enjoyed that the fact that I could go out and you know, and freelance and do what I thought were wonderful things but in the morning, I had to, I had to prove it to my students. They didn't want to hear about my exploits. Yeah. And so you know, maintaining a practice schedule while your your full time teaching, then apparent, you know, is is challenging. But, you know, I tried to do the best I could with it. And I have no complaints about the choices I make. I made your my life. I retired from the teaching bit I taught at a number of public secondary schools. The last one, a very, very good one in New York Scarsdale High School. And I also taught for 15 years as a was the choral director at a small liberal arts music school also in the New York metropolitan area. Because choral and vocal was also very, very big. And I love working with words. I love working with singers. And I retired and I ended up freelancing before this pandemic hit. And then what changes again? Oh, yeah, we could have a whole nother conversation about life. I've had enough I was really interested to speak to you because when I saw that you conducted not just orchestras, but also vocal groups and inquires, I spent probably 20 years of my life, singing in vocal groups and choirs, and I just absolutely loved, loved it so much. I learned so much from it. And I thought, I haven't spoken to another conductor. I don't think ever, I mean, the conductor that conducted me for all that time. And I just thought it'd be really nice. As part of this podcast to indulge myself a little bit. Game. I can do it, Carla. Yeah, so yeah, I spent years singing like that time, like Kirby Shaw was really big on these sorts of arrangements and was just a great time we saying we're all female. So we're SSA or SSI. And I was I'm an alto or second outro. And I used to just add, and I just love that feeling of blending and changing your tone to suit people around you and listening at the same time as singing. It just taught me so much about working with other people and a no compromise. You know, it's not all about me, I'm not a soloist, here, it's, we're all working together. The choral thing is just, it's an amazing bit of humanity. And I, for one, when you mentioned, you know, SSA or s a women's groups, I one of my favorite activities was to conduct women's groups. Yes, I almost felt like they invited me into their little thing. But the bonding that goes in a women's group and a sound as you say that you know, how you you really have to change a little bit of your, of your your thought process. But when it happens, the energy in a women's group is unlike any performing group I that I know of. And I, I love that I'm probably missed that the most about not conducting is conducting women's groups. But yeah, what you say is, so it's so true about choral groups. And I think when a conductor is savvy enough to to know that it's not really just about the music, but it's also about the people, because the force of the group shouldn't necessarily come from the podium, it should come from within. And if you can create that sort of atmosphere where they were the singers feeling engaged, and part of this, that they're not just being lectured. It's a it's just an amazing feeling. I missed that I miss choral groups. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, the buzz that you get, like, we were, like, I'm in my 40s. Now. So I started singing in that group when I was probably 14. And we always used to look around at each other. And just, we were just these individual kids and teenagers. And as we grew up, we kept saying, how do we sound so good? Because we'd look at each other and think, Well, we're not like that good. You know what I mean, as individuals, but then when we'd sing together, it would just be this amazing sound. And we just think, I don't know, it, just it the collective, you know, we'd just have this amazing energy and, and it was it was like you say, like a sort of a, it was a humbling experience, I think to realize that there was things you could achieve that were greater than yourself and greater than your own ego, I suppose. Yeah, it was just when I look back on it. Now, I don't think I realized at the time, how fortunate I was to have that experience and for such a long time with the same roughly the same group of people. Yeah, it was fun. The bond, that amount of bonding that happens in those groups, it's just amazing. It's like, you know, it doesn't happen in an all males group. And it doesn't, it certainly doesn't happen in a mixed group. There is some bonding and a mixed group, but it just for some reason, women are much more able and capable of loosening some of the garbage that's around all of us. And I you know, I knew I could never I could never get really that close to it because of who I am. But it just was awesome to be around and the way they treated each other though. They backed each other, you know, and and it reflects in the sound. That's why this the sum of its parts is more important than the individual. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's the perfect description, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, he's just us, he said that it just reminded me of this moment, when we were recording, we recorded a couple of albums. Back in the 90s, this is going back. And we had to travel to Adelaide to record it, because our little town doesn't have any sort of capacity for recording how many people in one room at one time, and we were doing this particular song I can't make I think it was called Johnny has gone for a soldier, it's that was like, Oh, amazing, amazing song. And the soloist was having a bit of trouble, because she had to record it live while we're all recording. And so she was having a bit of trouble. I can't remember what parts or whatever. And our conductor took us aside and he said, we have to, we have to keep doing this. And I've done it a few times. But we have to keep doing it for Rene. And he basically gave us a choice. He said, we can go home now because it's the end of the day, and we come back and get it done the next day and stay an extra day. Well, we can stay here tonight, we can get it done. And we can you know, get Rene solo through and and we will get a we're gonna do it. We're gonna stay here now and get it done. And, you know, like that just support get behind each other. You know, it was just, and we wanted it to be good for her. We wanted her to have that experience as well and achieve what she wanted to, I suppose as the soloist because, you know, it's it's important when you get a solo to do it justice for yourself, you know how you want to present it. So I could totally relate to that. And that's interesting to hear that in your experience that it's not something that happens with with the men's group in the mix so. Hey, sorry, I've got a visit I forgot to say that. I'd say sorry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I had to. I had to in some of the some of the things they pulled me in concerts. Oh, yeah, my little one decided once she was going to mimic me conducting from the audience. I think she was better. That would have been lots of laughs people around, it would have enjoyed it. But did you? Did you start to realize at the time what was happening that she was doing that? Yeah, it was right behind me. You know, because we were both my wife was playing and I was conducting. Yeah, just school concert. So it wasn't, you know, it's not Carnegie Hall. But we had put them in a seat because we were sort of in the pit area. And we put them in seats right behind us. So that, you know, they wouldn't wander and they wouldn't, you know, be by themselves. And so, because we're both occupied, you know, here, I'm doing these grand gestures. And all of a sudden, I noticed that there's a mirror behind me doing. And the audience is laughing. Oh, that's so special. Isn't it? Like, Oh, I love that. That isn't? Well, I mean, you're, you know, the title. Or at least the you know, the title of the of your podcast is having to do dealing with family and being a musician. And that's a, that's a tough lift. You know, it is a tough lift. But when, when you have a moment like that, you know, then you realize that, you know, how special it is for also for the for the children, you know, my children's still sort of involved in music. So, yeah, it's sort of validating, I suppose, then you realize that they see what you're doing, like, there. And in a way, they're probably so proud of you. That's probably not the words a child would use. But, you know, to mimic you to copy what you're doing. You know, that's where they say flattery is the what's the word? Something's the biggest form of flattery. I can't actually, it's too late. You know what I mean? Like she or he, I'm sorry, what if, like, there was so. So wrapping what you were doing so? Yeah, I think that's a lovely story. I have two daughters. One is 34. And the other is third, the 231 311 lives in Northern New York State almost by the Canadian border, the city of Rochester. She, she's an opera director. And she does a freelancing and works as an adjunct in some schools. And the other is getting her master's in information in library sciences in New York. And she lives in Brooklyn. Yeah, right. Yeah, opera. That's that's a whole new world, isn't it? That's like, compared to the car. Well, like, it's different isn't? It? Isn't it isn't? You know, I, opera is a big piece of my, my background. And frankly, I got into opera as a young person and musical theater before I got into choral music. But, you know, I mean, some of the core, some of the opera choruses are amazing piece of choral work. And you're also dealing with languages, you know, you're dealing with subtexts. In some cases, you know, classic stories. I know, perhaps, maybe people think that opera is passe. I don't I mean, what's happening? I don't know what's happening there. But what's happening here is a massive revolution in librettos, and people writing operas, and not just regurgitating the same 25 year a year, but it's, I love it. You know, it's a combination really of great orchestral music, great choral music and great solo music, and theater. What more could you have? Yeah, that's it, it takes so many books, this doesn't, does and then this band is ballet. And some of them I actually had, the episode I released just this week was with a dancer from the Australian ballet. And I, I recorded with her for almost three hours, because I couldn't stop talking about the music. And thank goodness, she was kind enough to indulge me but I was just like, I don't know, that obviously, as a musician, I'm so enthralled by that part of of ballet. And I just find that just the whole world of ballet is a mystery. So it was lovely to be here to share a lot of these behind the scene things we all think it's a bit like that Black Swan movie, but she showed me that it's not all like that some parts of it. Those they had a hard they really have a hard because they have to make it early. Young. And, and I think the physical, there's a physical toll and music as well. But the physical toll on on dancers is really intense. So I think they haven't my Google, oh, the way she was describing what they do how like the days, they're doing there might be rehearsing one day and then performing that night, but they'll be doing perhaps they're not rehearsing the show they're doing that night anymore. They're learning the next one. And it's just like, not only would your brain be spinning, but your body is just under the pump, you know, sometimes six or seven days a week. And like when I was talking to us, I was trying not to be sound too daunted. But I was like, This sounds exhausting. Like how do you guys actually do it? Like, you know, and then to fit in having a family as well? Like, how how do you physically manage it all? It's just such a know, a really challenging world. Yeah. I think I think Broadway actors are similar in that, you know, I I know a few and I had a few former students and their lives aren't just it's not the rock star stuff that you think it is that we all think that media thinks it is? Yeah, no, they're working eight nights a week. They can't really take time off because you don't know if a show is going to close. They're worried about what the next show comes. There's the physicality of it they they actually have misuses and people backstage to deal with them when they were there elements. It doesn't exactly sound Like, you know, rock star movie star kind of thing we are, it's, it's such hard work and that and it makes you appreciate it, when you see it, you think of, if you can, if you have an appreciation of what they've been through, to be able to bring you what you're watching, just, you know, have such respect for these people and the work that they've done, and continue to do so. So you mentioned before that your wife is also a musician, what does what does she play? What'd she do? She, she was a pianist, also. And a choral director, she actually called her up to the schools. Most her age group was mostly here in the US grades six through eight. And sometimes a little younger. And so, you know, we, in one way, we had a one where you sort of had an advantage because we were both on a school schedule, which helps in bringing up children in another way. A disadvantage is that December, May in June, you know, like, some similarity was always out at night. And so, you know, trying to figure out who's picking the kids up who's getting dinner, who's that sort of thing, but she you know, I don't think she had I can say this, we, we've been married with a beetle before you for two years in May. But we shouldn't have that kind of burning passion to really want to play by herself. She was very comfortable and love the classroom and loved the whole element of the classroom. And she was coral. Like I said that and she was a really good teacher, she retired also, this is her first year of retirement. You know, she kind of bridged a little bit into that sort of that pandemic teaching and decided that this is not really what I signed up for Yeah, but so we did share a lot of music and a house I mean, there was always music in the house somebody was always playing and although we tried not to force our kids to be in music it you know just sort of happened sometimes you just can't help but if you if you're surrounded by it it's it just gets into you doesn't know you feel the need to go up and conduct is that that daughter that that imitated us that the daughter that is the opera director? No Actually no, no she she was the younger she's the younger daughter and she was very as a child growing up how can I say spicy monkey still is a little bit she played actually she played the viola through school and was quite good but again did not have that you know there's there's a certain there's a certain amount of mania and I might even say sickness that you need to have to, to kind of keep that thing going and neither girls although they love music, and they were quite good at it, they just didn't have that to go to go beyond that which is just fine. You know, it's not but no, she never. She played a few decent orchestras and you know, we used to play together sometimes I would accompany her if she asked me but no, never took up the baton except for that one time. Maybe she read the critics loved it. That story. That is a really good story. Hello so in that, but you've, your wife and yourself are sort of juggling the parenting role and trying to do your music was that I had an I had a weird it, was it ever sort of uh, was it? Was it hard to sort of juggle who was going to get to do certain things? Were there ever sort of clashes where it was like, we don't both try to do the same thing like that, that that experience where you had to take the girls with it? Was there a lot of that sort of stuff where you're both having to be out and bringing the children with you? I would say there was a little angst on on who's you know? And if, but I, I could, we were very good to each other and that we communicated, you know, and we knew what what needed to be done. So like, if I was doing a show, that pretty much meant, like for the last 10 days I was done. And if she was doing a show was the same thing? No, like there's any, you know, he might say chase you. But with the with the onset of digital calendars. makes things a lot easier, because now all of a sudden, everything is like in front of you. And everything has is in front of me and vice versa. Well, we didn't have that when, when our daughters were growing up, but it helped being in a school schedule, for sure. You know, they were it would sometimes be is if I had extra stuff if I was doing extra freelance things on the weekends or sometimes. You know, I did a few festivals over this festival over the summer, which took me away for a bunch of time. There were maybe there was a little friction there. But I don't you know, I think with some of that. And I know what you're driving at with the question, I think is that, you know, like sometimes well, it is, you know, somebody, somebody gives up a portion of their thing for the house, household, and the other person does it. And in a sense, I kind of did that. But not really because I still was teaching my main focus was teaching and playing in church. And my wife's focus was teaching, completely teaching. So it's not like anybody. Anybody asked somebody else to do something extraordinary. So that you could make it big at the Metropolitan Opera. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know, people were who have have had to do that. And you know, that causes great tension, and sometimes they can split up for that. But we did not have to deal with that. And I think that's part of, again, going back to our original set, the grounding that teaching gives you really negates some of that. Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for indulging that question that sort of, you know, I'm appreciative of your giving me your time as, as the man in the relationship to how you deal with that, and how that makes you feel, you know, what I mean? It's like, I think on my show, we do talk a lot about how women try to cope, you know, sometimes in a man's world and depending on what sort of art circle they might be in. So I find it I just, you know, in a kind and respectful way to hear what the other side has to say, You know what I mean? Yeah, no, I, you know, and I think, I think one of the problems is that there isn't enough dialogue about that. It's something that really people don't think about when when they do get married or when they have children. Is that okay? And perhaps, perhaps, it certainly is better than what it was when I was growing up where, you know, there were, there were definitely roles carved out. You know, my father went out to work, my mother stayed home, she didn't go out to work sometimes. But the one thing I did learn from my father, because he worked in a restaurant business he cooked. And so to me, that was never something that was, well, you know, I don't want to I don't want to do that. As matter of fact that that in some ways for me, if I'm going to the market and buying stuff, and cooking it, that's a real release valve. I mean, I actually really enjoy doing that. Yeah. And so I think that the problems occur when you don't communicate and I think there are certain things that I know my wife does that other people might think are so called manly things to do. Because I don't like doing them, and I'm not very good at them. The things that I do that might some people might say, are not manly kinds of things. And I don't care. I also think that a lot of those those, those, those boundaries are changing, they certainly change, you know? And who know who would not want to be involved with rearing your children being around your children? I mean, I can't imagine why you'd want to, why would you have them anyway. So that's somebody that you used to look forward to when, when, when they were young, I do this once by accident. And I would take a day off from school in December after my concerts were done. I pull them out of school. And I take him to Manhattan. And the first my wife was out doing a concert and I was home with the girls got Chinese takeout or prices to carry out and decided to rent the film Breakfast at Tiffany's, which they've never seen before. And so they allow, I was glad that they fell in love with I hadn't seen it since I was a kid. So they wanted to go have Breakfast at Tiffany's. I took the day off, we went into Manhattan. We sent the student for a Tiffany's with a bagel or whatever it was, and then went to the tree. And it just it was such an amazing day that I ended up doing that for maybe four or five years after that, not necessarily going to Tiffany's but other parts of Manhattan at the time with the two of them. And I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah. Yeah. And I bet they remember those, like really special memories, too. It's part of their childhood. Yeah, they do, actually. Yeah, that's lovely. But I think you're right, though. It's like the gender stereotypes, the gender roles are being challenged, which is awesome. I don't think I could have had this conversation. You know, in my dad zero, that would have just been What are you talking about? Like, why is why is this even a question? This is, this is not what happens. You know what I mean? It's just things are changing in that that's awesome for everybody. Because that's the thing, like, just because, like I spoke to a dad for this podcast last year for the Father's Day episode, and he said this, because I'm the dad, why was it assumed that I'm the one that has to leave the house and go to work? Why can't I be the one that stays with my children? Because I love my children? Why would I want to stay with my children? So you know, everyone's the mind shift. The mindset is shifting with every generation and which is awesome. Like, it's really good. Yeah, I almost wish it was shipped a little faster here in the United States. Yeah, yes, things not shipped so fast. As I'm sure you can see. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was. So you talk about communication being really important. Did you at that time, when you were thinking about starting your family? Was that a discussion that your wife and yourself had? How's this going to work with our careers? And what we want to keep trying to do musically? Was that? Was that something that happened then? No. We, we were married for seven years before we had our first born and how grant time flitting around going into the city going to Europe. I I loved our lifestyle. I really didn't want it to change. And but I knew having a child was was really important in my life. And I'm not sure if it was that important to me. And I kept I wouldn't say resist, but you know, you know, the usual and we don't have my mind. We don't house you know, that sort of thing. And then finally, I would that's part that's part I assume has to be part of the package. So I didn't want to go back on my word. I was frightened. Frankly, to be really honest. I thought that my entire life would change completely. Um, and I remember, you know, both girls were C sections and my wife was in a hospital, the first one. I remember, she was in hospital and I came home from visiting. And I was by myself and I remember sitting with a very large glass of wine. Watching. It was a European cable channel that used to we used to be able to get that doesn't exist, I don't think it exists. And we're watching the Mozart Piano Concerto in D minor. And thinking, you know, I'll never play that. You know, I'm sure most of it was just the exhaustion. shock of it. But, you know, I woke up the next day, went back to the hospital, you know, and I was the first one to actually hold her, you know, she was a little thing, you know, and and that whole thought process at that point, it didn't matter anymore. You know, I, but I also to remember playing a recital, like the week after, or like 10 days after being absolutely exhausted. And that's basically that what I realized that my life was going to be as it was just going to, it wasn't going to be that sort of picture. Perfect. I can go and do a gig someplace, and I'm prepared and I'm rested. I'm fired up. It says, basically, let me stay awake long enough to finish it and then go home and crash. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, when I realized that my life would not change much. I mean, it does change, of course, you know, it has to change. But when it would not change, or at least what I felt was important I like she was she was an infant. And I remember watching a broadcast of a live broadcast from, I guess, the Metropolitan Opera of Mozart's Magic Flute. And Emily was on the floor with me just before bed, and it got to the point where the Queen of the Night sings this array up, up, up, up, up, up, up up a Berber put her bed, I finished watching the thing, the next morning, the next day after school, I come home and she's kind of like trying to sing it. So I went out and got a boombox. I bought the highlights CD of The Magic Flute. And now I realize she has she has the disease. Oh, one. Yeah, and they've always been, you know, we've schlepped them to so many different not only school performances, but also stuff that we aren't being close to Manhattan to New York. They've seen a lot of stuff so but you know, I think at that point, I realized that you know, this these two things can commingle? I was going to ask you, as you were talking about that was you realize that you didn't have to give up one thing to have the other it's that your music and your child, your children could actually, like you said coexist, that would have been a really relieving moment, I would have thought that you sort of would have thought I'm not going to lose it or I'm not going to have to, you know, give up something. No, no, yeah, it was, you know, the, the what it did impress upon me is that I was going to have to work harder to maintain it. Yeah. And sometimes I couldn't maintain it the way I would want to, you know, like I couldn't get to a piano to practice or I couldn't I had to turn down something. But I would have to be it would be more on my shoulders to try to balance those two things like not practicing when they're asleep and those kinds of things. I can see how it would have been a very difficult set have choices for somebody else to make. But once I saw them, as you know, once I saw them, that was not a difficult choice anymore, you know, as much as I love music they don't take that doesn't take the place of my children, you know? Yeah, and I think that's something that everyone's afraid of when, when you, you, you sort of presented with this prospect of having a child and your life completely changing, you have this fear of, what's my life gonna look like? Off you go? Go on, go see that place. You'll be asleep when I come out. That just proves it doesn't it? Just proves it. It's just an you know, sort of, I just have to go go with the flow of it all. Because in the end, to me, it doesn't matter. Yeah, he's what matters. Yeah. You know, whether I have to wait 10 minutes or not, that doesn't matter, you know, and if it doesn't, and if it did matter, then then I'm an idiot, you know, because that was more important at that, at that point, and balancing all of that, bravo, you know, that's gonna be hard for what you're doing. Because you're in your house. It's not like you can go someplace else. It is, it is challenging. But the thing that I like to remind myself is that he does have to be parents, and there's a time and place for each parent to have what they need. Because I think it's really important for you to be filled up yourself, have your cup filled up, especially if you, you know, if I think you have to be nurtured yourself before you can nurture someone else, I think it's really important to do that, and that's why I've never stopped singing never stopped creating, through having both kids through both pregnancies. It's like, I think it's just a part of who you are. And that identity doesn't change just because you become a parent, is that part of your life's not going to just, you know, go up in smoke, you're all of a sudden not going to be a creative person, just because you're a parent, you know? Yeah. And that certainly is not, you know, your parents or my parents reality, they had to give up things that they may have wanted to do. I feel bad for that. You know that that was the case then. But it's not now. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's also what makes creative people also want to do stuff because they, it's almost I don't want to say they want to prove a point that it can be done. But it's like, you've seen how, perhaps your parent your parents gave up stuff that they wanted to do. And maybe that doesn't feel right for you, you don't. And because society's changed, you have those opportunities, so you're going to take them I suppose that's I guess that's a way of trying to describe it. Again, not to delve into the into politics, but I think one of the things that's, that's difficult here in United States is that we don't have daycare. Daycare is all private. And so, you know, there is no infrastructure for we were fortunate that we we made enough money for both of us to go out working and somebody who's watching the children, and then when they went to school, somebody wouldn't, you know, but I remember moving into this house now, where we were, the biggest issue wasn't whether we can afford this was whether we're going to be able to find daycare that was appropriate for both girls. And that that piece I think, helps to be able to share the responsibility and for people to be able to say, okay, I can keep a piece of myself and still be a parent and etc. But I feel so awful, you know, even it was highlighted here, certainly during the pandemic when daycare centers were shut down, and people who really need that, you know, the working class or the poor, have to sacrifice going to work with having their kids at home. And again, I don't want to know, I actually I don't mind delving in politics because I'm old enough to have seen the world spin a few times. And my only hope for this country, you know, we label everything is to make it easier for people to have families and to go to work and to have their dreams, then we can we could have that all. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Like a lot of it comes down to circumstance, like you can have all the dreams in the world. But if you physically cannot do it, for whatever constraint that said, it has to has to stop, doesn't it? Yeah, I actually, I spent nine years working in childcare here in Australia. And I'd recently just resigned from that job a couple of weeks ago. And they desperately we need an overhaul here desperately. The same thing during COVID, we didn't get shut down. But the the limitations put on access to childcare were greatly changed. So if only if you were an essential worker, you were allowed to use childcare. So basically deciding whose job was important enough to be able to have childcare, which I thought was pretty ordinary, and a lot of parents obviously, were not happy with that they would ring us and say, Well, why isn't my job important enough? Who decides? You know, the government's decided, but obviously, the sentence the person who answers the phone is the one who's copying that question. And that's not a question they can answer. But that's how people feel. And I can understand that I don't think it's it's not a fair thing to put on people to decide. You're whether you're important enough in in this community in our country, or not, it was just a bit of a mess, to be honest, but Well, yeah, you know, there's an issue here too, about how birth rates are going down. Well, if people are worried about having children, because they can't work. Of course, birth rates are gonna go down. Well, you know, I but yeah, there's a whole thing that just reminded me I listen to a lot of BBC Radio. And they were having a big thing on there the other month about China, how they're now wanting people to have three children. And they were saying, well, there's no infrastructure set up for mums to return to work, there's no childcare, there's, you know, they don't have like nannies system, like it's not a thing over there. So how can you expect people to return to work if you don't give them the, the tools to be able to do it? It's all well and good saying have three kids, it's like, well, hang on a sec, I actually still want to work or need to work. Yeah, it's the also piggyback on your, you know, the point of our conversation, is that that's, that's a huge, a huge, huge issue for people who are in the arts, about having family, you know, and also, you know, if somebody's a freelancer, or, you know, let's say they're fortunate enough to have one of the big jobs, you know, orchestra, full time orchestra or health benefits, the whole thing. Those things happen, like you're a ballet dancer, they rehearse during the afternoon in the morning, and they play at night. And usually they stay in the same hall all day long. So somebody's got to be home. Or there has to be some some accommodation for Where do the kids go? Yeah. That's only if you're you're fortunate to be married to somebody who has that kind of a position. But most of the musicians I know, they're all you know, they're either office temping someplace, and they're they're running out to do gigs at night and taking whatever comes along. And it is certainly a lot harder for them than it ever was for us to to try to bring a family. There's this whole the gig economy, we call over here, people who are freelancers and, and that kind of stuff that they they suffered hugely through the pandemic, because they didn't get the support from the government that other people did, too. So that was a whole nother sort of cultural division of why why is some people worthy of receiving money from the government and some people aren't and the arts just suffered so much. And that's something that I think half the reason why, hopefully, we'll have a change of government because people have realized that the sports kept going and the sports were supported, and that there was all sorts of allowances made for them to travel through interstate to keep playing their football and whatever else they were playing, but the arts just stopped. And even at a local level, there was no support, so I don't I don't that frustrates me. But anyway, we've got an election coming so we can do something about you. Know, I think it's endemic in Australian culture that that of Sport comes first sport. So the bail and endo and the arts are the poor cousin. Unfortunately. But anyway, here too. Yeah. Well, we are here just even on the school's bounce, we're screaming about how their kids games were canceled and you know, the colleges wouldn't come and see them kids play and they wouldn't get into college and scholarships and and so they ended up allowing indoor games like basketball when you couldn't sing in a in a you know, you couldn't have a choir. Yeah. What's the difference? Yeah, that singing that singing thing really got us over here as well. That was just really? Yeah, it's hard. You'd have 40,000 people sitting in a stadium watching a football match, but you couldn't gather together in a room and sing together? Come on just the Yeah. Very frustrating. But anyway, hopefully that all that stuff's behind us now and when to get something else. The next variant? Yeah, oh good. Coming back to you as a conductor, I wanted to ask and I haven't I haven't asked you this previously. So I'm going to put you completely on the spot. So if you like to move on to something else and come back to this in a minute, that's fine. I wanted to ask you, what's your favorite piece to conduct? And why? Is it two out of a question? Well, it here here's my usual stock answer when people say to me, what's your favorite composer? Or what's your favorite piece of music? It's like saying, What's your favorite food? There's sometimes I like a plate of pasta. Or sometimes I like a beautiful piece of grilled fish. And there are some times that I might even like pizza. I don't really have it's like, there's a line from this show Oklahoma. When Wilbur Parker asks Adel, Annie, well, which guy do you like better? And she says, whichever one I'm with, I try in conducting and playing. To find even if it's something that I don't may not connect with initially. I tried to find something in it, that I can get my hook into it, and then expand out example, I resisted working learning conducting Carmina Burana for years and years years. I just felt like it just you know, it just seemed like some raucous pieces, you know. And then, this was my college position. They, they hired a new president, who was of German descent. And he decided he wanted the choir to sing a few movements of Carmina Burana at his installation. Interesting choice, I would think, especially with some of that text. So I felt like I really couldn't say no. Even though I didn't have the kind of forces to put that together. So I sat and I studied it. I chose some movements. I managed to get money out of them to put it together. And I did it. And frankly, I enjoy the rehearsal, and I enjoyed the performance in it. So that's an example of something that I had absolutely no, and I knew I had, I should I should do it because everybody does it. I'm more of a lyricist. I mean, I love I love. I love great text. I love melody but I also love complexity. I would say Probably my favorite thing to conduct his BA. Because I love puzzles. Yeah, those kinds of musical puzzles. But there's something there's something tremendous about conducting Verity. There's something tremendous the one guy that that scares me. Let me be honest, but it's probably not gonna be broadcast United States a little matter. Beethoven, I know, people would say, Are you crazy? That's like the pinnacle. Beethoven, to me is so dense, and is one of those composers that I have to work really hard to get at the kernel of it. It just, it's not easy for me. It's not easy for me to play. It doesn't fit my hand well. And it just I look at the score and it's almost like I look in a language that I don't understand. I like to say I probably have enjoyed it. But it's not my desert island kind of fit. I mean, I love listening to it. And obviously his place in music is amazing. To me, Mozart, Mozart operas. Mozart symphonies. CalWORKs Wow. Poulenc Gloria is one of my favorite pieces. The Dorothy Requiem is another one of my favorite pieces. I've done the for a requiem a number of times also one of my my favorites. I've tried to get my try to get my wife to sign a piece of papers to tell me that you know that it should be sung at my funeral. Very carefully choose the soloist. Pas who is just a challenge, you know, first of all first soprano that's a hard question but I don't know if I answered it fully. I also love those you know those small tacos, you know, those Renaissance music. choral music to me is just it's a ethereal I love the big British stuff, the whole host of Vaughan Williams. And again, it's it's it's sort of what what I mean at the moment. Oddly, Mozart, the Mozart Requiem is not one of my faves because it's not really Meltzer except for bits of it. I've done it I've enjoyed doing it. But it's not something that I would really doesn't have the same spot in my in my being as some of the French correlate works. symphonic li DeVore Jack but I also like to conduct contemporary music too. And I find that to be interesting. I love playing contemporary music and for that very reason is that at least the way I work is I look big first and then realize oh my god, how am I gonna redo this and then I go back and just sort of take things in small chunks. And with contemporary music there's there's no preconceived motion to fall on. You know, you can't go to a recording you can't go to you can't read about it. Especially if it's brand new. I played there's a in Hartford Connecticut there was there's a festival every November this first time I did it. It's called New New in November and they basically put on one act operas, chamber operas written for piano five or six of them in a setting and so I played one of them and it was fast it was it was based on the American young American composer from Austin, Texas, based on the Pulse nightclub shooting in Florida. Very powerful and just so much fun at practice and dig into it, you know, this is trying to get and then once you finally get together with the other artists, it just it just it's like magic and so I really that I really enjoy something that has not been done before that I have to trust my own guile and research Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you actually, because I know as, you know, doing choral music, it's sort of up to the conductor to interpret it and to present it in the way that they see fit the way that they you know, the tempo, like there's always the guide to what to do. But someone might put a pause somewhere else for dramatic effect, or, you know, there's, there's room for your own added nuances, I guess. Is that something that you find exciting or daunting, then if you know, someone else has done it? Is it hard to put out of your mind? They didn't like that. But I wanted to do it like this? Or did? Does that make sense? No, it makes great, it's a great question. For one, I'm a bit I'm a bit of a traditionalist, if it's not in the score, I am not going to muck around with the score much unless the big unless is, what can the group in front of me do? I am not a big believer on having this massive conceived idea of a work that they can't accomplish. So if it's a professional group, that's one thing, but if it's an amateur group, or it's a school group, or it's a church group, then what I do, I try to look at what the score demands in terms of sound. And if they can't do it with perhaps the way that somebody else might do it, like speed, I'll do it with articulation to create that same effect. But to me, it makes no sense to try to, to push a group to do something that you have, you know, basically an academic scholastic idea of what it should sound like, and they can't do it. Yeah, what's the sense? So, in terms of freely interpreting, I like to feel like I have some say on that. But mostly, my say on that, especially if it's a choral work has to do with punctuation, breathing, text issues, there's some composers who are very demanding in what they write, and there's others that have their own, like Vaughn Williams, or one I mean, he's, his, his writing has to sort of be interpreted because it's not, it doesn't really make any sense if you do exactly what he says. And I suspect it's because of the acoustic that he was writing for. That it was in a church and a very live acoustic. So sometimes things like the final ends of notes or phrases are kind of, you know, he puts a a quarter note with an eighth note that's tied to it, and a dot underneath that, which to me says, Get rid of the time, especially if you're in a dry acoustic. Yeah, yeah. So but I have a, I have a story that I I did the, the Verdi Requiem in Romania, about four years ago, four years ago. And quiet was quite good. soloists, we're all we're all professional, but you know, like most of these kinds of places, they're all sort of stuck, because you're not there for a long period of time. You basically float into the city, have a couple of piano rehearsals, a dress, you know, you meet the orchestra and then bang, off you go. So there's no time for me to pontificate I want I want there's a spot at the end of the very Requiem, where it is this huge crescendo and then it comes to subido piano. basically impossible to do with the way he wrote it. And it's in the middle of a word. So I scoured various recordings. And one of the recordings I got, which was a composer I conducted that was very influential in my, in my view of conducting was Robert Shaw. And I'm doing amazing pretty regularly. He actually took a little bit of a loose breath before that piano, the whole thing. And then the subido piano, perfect. So I thought it was good for Robert Shaw, if you could for me, right. Nan Romania gave me an issue with it. She said. And I said, Well, you can you make this with the piano without and it turned into this fight. So in the end, okay, it wasn't a subido piano wasn't a piano. But it wasn't worth fighting, because it just wasn't, you know. And so sometimes, you know, I think I probably if I had more time, I probably would have insisted, but my Romanian is not very good. English and I don't think she spoke English very well anyway. But that's the thing like you, you, you're challenging cultural norms that, and it's hard to break down those barriers or even question those barriers, certainly with a limited timeframe. But even at all, I guess, you know, there's 1000s of years of history, and that's what they do. And also, it's also what the what the norm is, in that particular region. Yeah. Right. So, to go back to the very Requiem, I did have an extensive choral rehearsal. To few be subject to a few areas in a very right way. And, you know, being sort of a pianist, and organist, a Bach lover, I mean, I have a certain set way about views. And they sang both views. Like, that was almost anathema to me, you know, you couldn't hear subjects, it just was like this big mush and wash of sound. And my first thought was, okay, so how far I'm gonna go with this? I tried. They were terrific. They were so receptive. Actually, those two choruses were the best things in the entire performance. Because I, they allowed me to break the paradigm. Yeah. Yeah. And, and when they actually did it, it was just awesome. You know, so clean it was you could hear every entrance and everything was shaded, and, and they were a good choir to begin with. But that's the difference. And then they were the soprano was not used to that she was used to getting whatever she wanted. And so when she got it what you want, and so I think that the score, it's not a museum piece, you know, it's a guide. And if you have enough, I don't think you should sway far so far from the score that it deviates from what the composer intended. Because that I don't think is right. Yeah. So no, but to use the score, and then also to use your understanding and knowledge of what the pair the practice of the time was, what the idiosyncrasies of that particular composer was, if you know them, if it's a brand new thing, then you know, then you're going on, you're going on guesswork, sometimes you're lucky enough to have a composer there. And that's, that's a long winded way of answering your question about, you know, how do you how do you sort of attack a score like that, but I find it really daunting, but yet fascinating to get like a clean score and thinking, okay. Where are we going from here? Yeah, no, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm throwing some questions that you that you haven't had any morning over. So I appreciate that. I'm a former teacher, I can dish it. Be surprising some of the questions would. No, I love that. Yeah, actually talking about contemporary composers. I had a guest on my show a few weeks ago, Dr. Erica ball, I'm not sure if you've come across her work. She's based in the United States. And she is on this mission, I guess to because she teaches piano and violin as well, to teach her students that they can play music by people that are alive still. That's her thing that it's like women and people that are still alive. And then like, some of his students don't even realize that people are still writing classical music. They think it's all stuff by, you know, people who died hundreds of years ago. So that was a really fun conversation. That's changing here. Mentally, yeah. And I think it's because composers are promoting their music better. I think festivals are promoting the music. And one of the one of the exciting things that I thought that happened during the pandemic here was, you know, because we were all, you know, sitting in front of our screens at home, it allowed us to sort of take some steps back and do a little research. And I was involved with a mezzo soprano friend of mine who wanted to put out a weekly A video of songs written by women composers who were not necessarily household names. And it was fast because we both researched this together. We rehearsed it using, you know, this thing here, which had its had its moments. But the fact that we, you know, we we did that I was, although I knew some names I some of the music is just a why is this buried? Why is nobody playing this? Yeah, yeah. And it's happening here. There's, there's concerts now. A great deal of concerts by African American female composer Florence Price, who wrote a tremendous that was an amazing pianist. Were big groups, symphonic groups. choral groups are starting to really dig in and not look at the same stuff that we've been playing for 300 year. That although some people do advocate that, I think that bringing this no music by living composers into the canon of what we do, is going to sustain classical music and not make it look like just some relic museum piece. Yeah, that is so true. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, because it's like, it will just stay as something that doesn't evolve, it doesn't change, it isn't challenged. And eventually, it'll just, I don't know, might even get lost somewhere because it hasn't evolved. And I don't I, I think it's awesome. It's really, really good to keep it relevant as well for new audiences. And because I think this conversation I had with with Erica was that there is a portion of the audience that desperately wants to hear a song that they know, and they recognize that there's also the people that want to challenge that. So it's also that that generational shift, you know, that that will challenge your whole Hispanic that's been going on for a long time. You know, and you mostly see it in, in orchestras, where they know that their donors, their big donors want to hear Mahler and Beethoven, Brahms, and will not will not stomach in certain places, certain cities are different, but it will not stomach an entire evening of something that they don't recognize or can't understand. Yep. So in the past, orchestras have sort of mixed the program a little bit, you know, they give the castor oil on the sugar. But that's also changing, you know, where, and they've been very smart about it, and using sometimes contemporary living composers who actually show up to these concerts, give a lecture on it. Explain it, because I think some some of that is education. Yeah. But I, it's starting to starting to veer off into the choral world and starting to veer off into the opera world. And I just in some ways, I had a conversation with a friend, we were talking about the pandemic, because let's face it, we all talked about pandemic, how they will would have been no Renaissance, if it wasn't for the Black Death. You know, I mean, the Black Death, the Renaissance was, was a direct cause of coming out of the Black Death as the, the, the pandemic of 1918, the roaring 20s was a direct cause of coming out of that in the First World War. And I maybe I'm an optimist. I am, too. But I think there's going to be a second renaissance in the arts for sure. Because, like you say, they've taken such a hit, and so they can't go back to the same way things were done before. Yeah, I would agree with that. I hope and I hope that that it challenges the norms. of all cultures, but my own I really hope because the thing that frustrates me is that creators and artists make everything that you consume, you know, you wouldn't be able to sit at home and watching Netflix during the pandemic, if somebody hadn't come up with the story and the actors, you know, everybody that goes into making that stuff and everything you touch and like everything has been created by someone and made by someone who designed by someone, but we just seem to take it for granted. I suppose. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. Then I Yeah, yeah. Until it was denied. And yes, yeah, we could argue for granted until they shut theaters down until they shut everything else down. And you had you had a search for it someplace else. And some of the arts organizations were smart enough. My follow up and for one is that then they started releasing all of their HD videos for free. Yeah, right, every week, you know. And, again, thinking of the longer the longer game, and a longer game is to, is to keep this thing going. Yeah, and perhaps not being precious about, you know, like that, that maybe giving up some income, maybe things used to have to be paid for in that way. But just because we've always done things a certain way, that doesn't mean we have to keep doing them a certain way, if we want to evolve and remain relevant and, you know, reach these audiences that are basically a candid audience. They're not doing anything else. So we pump them full of this stuff. And then they love it. And then they when they come out, they want to consume it even more. I, I, we went to the opera. In September, the Mecca opened back, you know, opened back up again. And this, they decided to open their season with a new opera. And it was written by the book was written by a columnist for the New York Times, fire shut up in my bones. If you ever have an opportunity to see the HD video, that is amazing. But the thing that was really amazing is that when this show opened, and as I said, it opened the season, which is unheard of. It was packed. And the audience was unlike any audience I've ever seen at any classical concert, anywhere. In the world, it was just like, first of all, it was an it was an event. And the age differential was huge. The the social makeup was huge. And I've seen, I saw people that I've never thought I would see at the Metropolitan Opera and a place went and it was, besides the fact that it was an amazing performance. But I thought they were going to rip down the house at the end. It was just was incredible. And that shook me. It's because when a staid institution, like the Metropolitan Opera can have the guts to say things are different. We're going to change a little bit of a the conversation here, I think there's no reason why not everyone else can also do. Yeah, that's incredible. Isn't it? Like the risk that they would take doing that, but the payoff has so many sort of flow on effects, not just for them, but for the how the culture of opera is now. You know, changing? Yeah. Incredible. The entire company, the entire production team, what's African America? Yeah. Yeah. And the dancing on stage was something that was unlike anything you would have ever seen on the Met stage. And it was just amazing. The band, the orchestra was actually a full symphony orchestra with a band in the middle of it. Playing and the music also had jazz elements, you know, symphonic elements, all sorts of just a hodgepodge of great, great stuff. I just hope they do more. Never was more of a Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love it. I sort of feel like ballet is really good at pushing the boundaries. I know the the Australian ballet here. You know, they've they've got to get the they get the balance right from the the shows that people want to say the sleeping beauties in the swan lakes and the nutcrackers. But then they get and they've been doing this for many years, getting the people we're gonna get people from Europe over to showcase to contemporary works and to push the boundaries of what people think ballet is. And I think I feel like ballet is really good at doing that. And yeah, the I think dancers always been really good at that. Because the music is except for those those chestnuts. The music can be anything you want it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and the style could be anything you really you really want it to be there's you're not really. I mean, the people have tried to pry loose a little bit of, you know, our conceived notions of what Nutcracker and Swan Lake should look like. But for the most part, if you do a contemporary thing, you're not under any constraints to do anything except what that work demands. Yes, they I think they've been good with that. And I think belly audiences are much more receptive To that, even though, you know, I frankly used to hate going to the ballet we call them the white glove crowd here. And so you'd sit in the audience and all of a sudden they take out these little bond bonds with the rappers it's like the most sublime piece of music and the oh here. And it would take forever for that thing to get in that woman's mouth. And it was just like, irregardless of what was going on. Yeah, just so I was never a great fan of the audiences of our ballets but for sure. We have this concept of mum guilt that I talked to my guests about and I love I love to eat sounds bad rice, I love talking to people about their guilt. But I find it really fascinating because everybody has different experiences, everyone might deal with it differently. Some people don't feel it, some people feel it a lot. And I like to when I get the chance to talk about how men feel about that. Because your say your a man's role generally is perceived as different to the woman. So it is expected that you might you know, you leave the home and do what you got to do and that sort of thing. Do you? What's your take on? I guess? I don't want to call it dad guilt because I don't. I don't even like calling it mum guilt. But I call it that just for the hashtag mum guilt, you know? What's your thoughts about all that sort of stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean by it. Okay. So the way that we talk about mum guilt is that when your mom, you're supposed to do stuff for the children. And then if you do something for yourself, you should feel guilty about that. Or if you don't meet the norms of what society deems as being an I'll put in air quotes, again, a good mother, you should feel guilty for that. An example that I can give you is a guest I had on the show, went out one night to watch a classical music performance. And she was there with their friends. And one of the people she met said, Oh, it's such a shame you're missing bedtime. You know, it's good that you could come tonight, but you're missing putting the kids to bed and she's like, why is that a question? Why are you asking me about bedtime? I shouldn't say this to the person. But you know, my child has two parents that my husband is quite capable of putting the children to bed. And I'm quite capable of leaving the house and doing certainly for myself. It does. I guess I can and I probably shouldn't answer for my wife. But I but you know, certainly when we've been out and I have to admit that we did not go out much without them. Okay, that was our choice. We took them to everything, including restaurants. And some of it was because we just liked being around them. And I don't think it was guilt. I just think you know, I could probably count on one hand. Firstly, babysitters rarely had a babysitter. Now, when one of us had to do something or went out? I would say that maybe Celia would feel a little, you know, like a little bit. I shouldn't be home. But I'm sure it passed fast. Especially knowing that I was there. Yeah. If I wasn't there, then I would have been a different story. If it we were both out someplace for sure. Yeah. As far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Guilt is a strong word. You know, I might think about you know, where I what I was doing. And I have to say I'm not I wasn't the kind of guy when the girls were young that Did you know like went out with the boys and that kind of stuff. I didn't do that at all. I had no intention to do that. I'm perfectly fine staying home with the girls. But you know, I might think oh, okay, we'd be having dinner right now or the, you know, shower time in the bath time. Yeah. But I wouldn't call it good. Yeah, you know, might as you said, you know, like our, the generation of our parents, they had to give up stuff. And I'm sure that, you know, like, my mother never went out on our own. And my father who was in a restaurant business without every night working, and come home till two, three in the morning. So I wish they almost did some stuff for them, you know? But, you know, I almost I must wonder about that. And it just, it's sort of a foreign thing. I understand why people might think that it I, it's hard for me to kind of think, put myself in there. Because, for one, we took them everywhere. Yeah. And, you know, we, the first time they went to Europe, to see my family, and she's been other places. One of them was five years old, four years old. You know, like, I mean, those kids went when traveling more than most. We went to restaurants. And so they were very, very early age. And we just, we wanted, we love being around each other. And it wasn't like to be with her mom or sisters. I'm sure maybe she felt a little, but I'm sure it passed quickly when she was with her sisters or whoever. And I never felt that, you know, I mean, I I was out a lot. You know, I was a church musician. So I never felt that. Unless I was out for an extended period of time. Like when I would do summers in Rome. I was five, five weeks, six weeks. Yeah, I did. For sure. I did. Because I knew all of it fell in unseal you know, and I wasn't there to sort of pick up the slack. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, thank you for answering that. I know. It's, I feel, no, it's something that fascinates me. But again, I, I want to be respectful when I ask people about things like that, because, you know, it's a bit of a, you're asking people to tell, you know, really private things about themselves. So appreciate you indulging me. Well, I think, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, because I think people who, who will listen to this should think there's, this is these are questions that, you know, are there and other people have coped with this before, and are coping with it now. It's not like a new thing. It's not. And, you know, like, with anything else, we, you know, like your, your story about feeling bad, because she's, you know, missing mum time. I mean, that that's something you put on yourself. That's not, that's not you create, you can create your own thing. You know, and I think in this in this age that we're in now, people respect when you create your own thing, and you're and you're strict with it, perhaps 40 years ago, no, you know, that question whether you are a good mother, if you were out, you know, but that, to me seems something that is more someone someone's demanding of themselves rather than it's coming from outside? Yeah, I think I feel like social media has had this impact of, of showing us so many different elements of people's lives, that allows us to compare elements of our own lives with them. But I think what we have to remember is that what people place on social media is very curated, and they're generally only showing the best bits. And so it's like, the advent of social media has allowed more comparison. And I think allowed more people to question themselves. I don't know, am I doing it right? Or what are people going to think if I do this, or, you know, whereas I think sometimes it's better just to do what works for your family and in stay really insular in your thoughts and not think about what's happening. You know, the last I checked, there was no manual. There's no degree on any of this. And, and there's no one way, you know, and so I, you know, we I think we all come into this thing with, obviously, what we were brought up with, knowing what worked and what didn't work, or what we want to imitate and what we certainly don't want to imitate. And then we go from there. And it's a partnership for one. It's not just one person deciding that. I know some families where it is all only one person and frankly, they're dysfunctional. And so, in some sense, you know, like to me bringing up children and also create a household idea is it's creative because it is based on the on the two of you. And it's also based on what, you know, your children's needs, etc. And there's no one way. I don't think there is no. Oh, yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. definitely agree with that. If you've got anything, any projects coming up or anything you want to share about it might have in the works or anything at all? Really? Yeah. It's a little slow for me getting back right now. Because the some of the things that I was involved with, are taking your time coming back. I've been I'm playing more, which is good. The conducting is coming a little slow. Right now, I was supposed to do conduct on Giovanni in Romania before this pandemic hit. And so I'm kind of like in a in a negotiation, trying to get that either in June or possibly in September. But I don't have any pressing things at the moment. In some ways, that's good. Well, my oldest daughter is getting married in October. And so that is pressing. It's pretty important. That is pressing. But in terms of artistic stuff. I don't I don't I don't think so. I am revisiting Don Giovanni, just in case I do call to do that in June, because it's a pretty big, pretty big work. I'd like to get that off on my back and off my off the table. But that's, yeah, I mean, that's, as of right now. My, my modus operandi is the, you know, when when the things come in, jump on them. I have no real plans. You know, I hope that some of the smaller theaters that I was working in, will start coming out, you know, the problem is, is that they were unwilling to commit to performance venues, because they weren't sure they're going to get closed again. Yeah. And, you know, the beauty is living an hour outside of New York, but also the problem is, is I'm an hour outside of New York. And so anybody in New York can gobble up whatever it is very quickly. Yeah. So but that's okay. You know, I stuff, things will come back, and perhaps things will come back that where I can go back picking and choosing what I want. I'm done with just grabbing anything that comes along, no matter how miserable it is. Yeah. Yeah, you can do it because you want to do it and you're passionate about it. Yeah, it's nice to take a step back a little bit, actually. And you know, to think a little bit more about all this and study a little bit more about all this and and then we'll see. Oh, good on. Yeah. Thank you so much for, for being a part of this special Father's Day episode. I'm very, very grateful for your time and for your candor, and your honesty, and I've really enjoyed our chat. Thank you, John. I enjoyed our tattoos. It was fun, and good luck to you and keep singing. Thank you so much. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Lisa Sugarman US writer S2 Ep57 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Lisa Sugarman, a writer and mum of 2 grown daughters from that famous town of Salem Massachusetts, USA. Before having her children Lisa was a newspaper (news and feature) reporter, writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa was a teacher for 15 years in local school system, as a class room teacher, coach administration and one-on-one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older and she working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. in 2009 her column "It Is What it Is" became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This lead her to the opportunity to write books, full of content the helps and inspires families, and in particular mothers, and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. Let the mistakes happen and embrace them. This lead her to the radio in Boston for many years. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, suicide + the death of a parent ** Lisa lost her dad to suicide when she was 10 years old, but didn’t find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later. Now, because of that life-changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention and she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQIA+ community. She lives by the motto "It’s okay that life is messy…because we're all a work in progress." Today in addition to my regular topics, we end up talking a lot about social media, and the role it has played in creating 'helicopter parenting'. and the affects of its portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and parenting expectations. If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Lisa's website / The Vomit Booth Read about the Salem Witch Trials We mention the Uvalde School shooting and The Beaumont Children Podcast - instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman.I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to today's episode. Thank you so much for joining me it really is an absolute privilege and an honor that you've chosen to listen to my podcast. My guest today is Lisa Sugarman. Lisa is a writer and a mum of two grown daughters from that very famous Town of Salem, Massachusetts in the United States. Before having a children Lisa was a newspaper, news and feature reporter writing for magazines and papers in the US. Lisa spent 15 years working in local schools as a classroom teacher, a coach in administration, and a one on one aid for children with special needs. It was after her children were a little older, and she was working in the school system that Lisa got back into her writing, writing about her own personal experiences in parenting, producing a column for her local paper just for fun. In 2009 Her column it is what it is, became a nationally syndicated column throughout the US and then around the world. This led to the opportunity to write books full of the content that helps and inspires families and in particular mothers and based around how to embrace your perfect imperfectness. This led Lisa to host her radio show in Boston for many years. This episode contains discussion around mental health and suicide and the death of a parent. Lisa lost her dad Jim to suicide when she was 10 years old. But she didn't find out that he took his own life until about 35 years later when she was 45. Now because of that life changing experience, Lisa is a passionate and vocal advocate for suicide awareness and prevention. And she's telling her story as a way of encouraging others to tell theirs. Lisa is also a proud ally and member of the LGBTQ plus community. She lives by the motto. It's okay that life is messy, because we're all a work in progress. Today amongst the usual topics I like to discuss, we end up talking a lot about social media and the role that it's played in creating helicopter parenting, and the effective it's portrayals of unrealistic perfection on our guilt and our parenting expectations. The music you'll hear today is from my trio, LM Joe, which is made up of myself, M Anderson, my sister and her husband, John, we play new age and ambient music. If you're triggered by anything we discussed today, please reach out for help, either to those around you, or by seeking assistance online. I've compiled a great collection of international resources. If you're looking for a place to start, you can head to the podcast landing page. Alison Newman dot net slash podcast. Thanks so much for coming on today. Lisa, it's a real pleasure to welcome you to the podcast. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So you're in America, we're about to you. So we live about 15 miles north of Boston on the east coast of the country. And we're in this cute little, semi famous city of Salem. Wherever you might be in the world, you can recognize that name, because it's got a lot of history attached to it. So we just we just moved actually from my hometown about a mile down the road. A little a little sea coast town and the birthplace of the American Navy. We just moved out maybe nine months ago, we just our girls are grown women now and we didn't need a house in any particular neighborhood anymore. And we just kind of took advantage of the crazy real estate market and sold and moved down the road. So we're in Salem. Oh, very good. So you're getting yourself set up in that special little town is it how many people live there? Is it very big Salem? In Salem? Um, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that at this point. I know the exact population but it's a pretty densely populated city and it's it's fairly Large. So there are definitely, definitely a lot of people i We live in an area of Salem that's kind of not in the hustle, we're a little bit removed from where people who are tourists would typically come to see and everything involving the witch trials. And, you know, you know all of that history you would go maybe two or three miles away from where we are, but it's a pretty it's a pretty densely populated little city. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Yeah. I think that pretty much everyone that's listening, probably recognize the name and the connections and the history. Yeah. I remember reading the crucible in year 11, or 12. Yeah. Yeah, that's something like we obviously have our own sort of histories here. But we've got we've got nothing sort of along those lines. So it's really fascinating to sort of, and I don't know how much of that is really true, either. Like, is there a bit of sort of folklore that goes along with? Yeah, there's, there's, there's some lore attached to it, for sure. And it's definitely I'm sure been embellished over the years, but I think, you know, so much of it, believe it or not, is, is actually very true. And it's been very well documented. And I mean, we haven't taken the tours since I was in grade school. And we would, you know, we would always, it would always be like a little junket to Salem to, you know, kind of take advantage of all that history. That's there. So I mean, I, I know that, you know, there is there's a lot of truth, kind of woven into all of those legends as well. So it's, it's a pretty deeply historical spot with so much significance. And it's neat, especially around October, Well, depends on your perspective, if you're from here, you want to be as far away from here as possible. If you're not here, like the entire world seems to converge on Salem, for the month of October. So everybody that that I know, knows to stay far away, because it's a little chaotic. Yeah. It's also kind of cool that everyone was, would be really interesting. Living in a place like that. So tell us a little bit about yourself lay. So what you do what you've done, I guess you can expand for as long or as short as you wish. So the floor is yours. Yeah, I appreciate that. So first and foremost, I mean, I'm I'm a mom, I have two very grown daughters, my youngest just turned 22. And our oldest is turning 25 in another few weeks. So I've been at it for a while that a little motherhood game. I was a teacher in our local school system for many, many years, probably close to 15 years and wore a lot of different hats in kind of in that role was a classroom teacher was a coach worked in administration was a one on one aid supporting just individual children with special needs over the years. So I had a really, really big open wide lens to really kind of view the parent child relationship, that that whole dynamic, the way the whole family system works, the way kids are, are educated and supported. So that's kind of what tracked me over toward what I've been doing most recently, in the last decade or so. I've always been a writer. So before I had children, I was a newspaper reporter for many, many years and wrote for magazines here in the US, and this way pre pre internet and that whole explosion. And we kind of took a break, or I took a break from that and stayed home and raised our daughters. And then it's just so funny how, how things happen. So unexpectedly, like you're you're tracking in one direction, and then you get an opportunity. And it kind of puts you on a on a totally different path. And that's what happened to me. I was working in the school systems. And just for fun, I started writing again, I had never written a column in my life, I was always a news and feature reporter and I just for fun started contributing to my local paper, because I had had some pretty deep connections there when I was in college. And they're always asking, you know, these these little hometown newspapers or I was desperate for people to, you know, to give them content. So I just started writing about what I was living at the time and what I was living with parenthood. So I started writing. And little by little, it just started catching on and people started responding really well to it. And it just birthed this whole brand new career. So the column was syndicated, it's called it is what it is. And it was just syndicated throughout this media organization, it was all over the country and then it kind of, you know, by virtue of the internet, it goes all over the world. So that happened for men. I've got like 12 years 11 or 12 years I was writing the column I still do and from time to time less so because I started focusing on books. And that led me to the opportunity to write books. And I've written a few of them, parenting focused all about kind of how to embrace your perfectly imperfect, this is really the easiest way to understand it. Let the mistakes happen, embrace them, and, and really kind of find the good nuggets that are within that. And then that kind of led me to the radio, and I ended up on the radio for a couple of years here in Boston. And so it's just, it's just been this, this really cool little flow of opportunities that have all kind of centered around creating content that helps support and inspire families and in particular moms. So that's, that's kind of the long answer to the How did I get to this point? And what kind of stuff do I do? So? Yeah, I still very much enjoy writing parenting content, although I've kind of shifted my focus a little bit. And I'm doing a lot of mental health advocacy, and suicide awareness and prevention and doing a lot of speaking and, and writing about that as well. So that that's, that's all interrelated, because it really, it impacts our kids an awful lot. And, you know, it's important to start and have those conversations. So that's kind of what I'm doing now. Yeah, right. So with your books, do you sort of draw on your own personal, like things that have happened to you, things that you've learned, or, I don't know, wish you'd known that kind of stuff? Yeah, that's exactly where it comes from. That's, that's where everything, just about everything that that I've done has come from, it's all anecdotally based. So it's really just either, you know, stories and experiences from my own childhood, or from, you know, the experience of raising my own children. And all of that experience being in the school system, both in the classroom and kind of in the administration role, and working with parents and kids so closely, and I just started seeing, you know, I started seeing such a pattern with parents and with children and parents were just getting so overwhelmed by this, this invisible need to be the perfect parent to have the perfect kid to make sure that they didn't make any mistakes, to make sure that their kids never fell on their face to make sure that, you know, there was no struggle. And in doing that, and it was all based from a place of love and caring for their children. But they were absolutely crushing their kids with these crazy expectations of how they should behave and what they should accomplish and how, I guess how, just how perfect they should be. And and it was it was really debilitating. And you can see the kids being affected by that and such negative ways. Kids kids couldn't couldn't build resilience, because they couldn't do things for themselves. They weren't allowed to do things for themselves. So I just started voicing my opinion, I guess, is what you could say about how counterproductive I thought that was. And that we really need to let our kids figure it out by failing by trying one way doesn't work. You go another way and, and it just really stirred up. You know a lot in me in terms of wanting to help parents understand that they don't have to be perfectly you can give yourself permission to trump the balls. And, you know, to kind of embrace that madness because parent parenthood, like if you can't laugh at parenthood, then you're in the wrong job, you know, yeah, that's it, isn't it? I've got just after you've said that, I've got that many things I want to ask you. I've got so many questions, I can take you in lots of different directions. So I'm gonna go, let's go. I'm gonna go with so talking. I mean, the phrase that sort of comes to mind when you're talking about that, that method of parenting, that helicopter parenting where you've always got to be over the top of your kids making sure things go right. Like you said, they don't. They don't get that chance to build their resilience because they don't get the opportunity to fail and experience Is that sort of emotions and that sort of stuff? I wonder, because often we talk about different generations and how they were parented and the sort of norms that were around, then, when do you think things started to really change and become this different way of parenting? Because I remember, as a kid, you know, being allowed to go out for most of the day, ride my bike around the neighborhood, do all this sort of stuff. And now it's like, oh, no, you can't do that something will happen to you like, when did that start to change? Do you think and what might have brought about that change? You know, it's funny that you should say that because I talk about that with my daughters, what we you and I have had similar experiences. The town that I grew up in this little coastal Harbor Town, just north of Boston, a mile from where I am right now is just this little peninsula town, surrounded by a harbor, four square miles, we would get on our bikes, there were train tracks, paths all around town, where you could get to and from one end and the other and that's all we did, we would be outside until Billy Fallon's mom rang the bell or blew the slide whistle and like the whole neighborhood would scatter and go home because they knew it was time to go home. But we out for like a second the sun came up. And we'd be on the path and we'd be downtown, we'd be in the harbor, and, and my kids, my kids were bike riders, not to that same degree. But they were the kids playing manhunt. I don't know if it's manhunt is a game that that, you know, it's it's tag, it's just like, all throughout the neighborhood and in the trees and in the fields and whatnot. So it still existed when my kids were young, but I feel like I can't say that there was a catalyst, like, I don't necessarily know that I can say, okay, that at that exact time, because of that exact event, everything shifted. But I do think it was somewhere in between our generation and my children's generation, where, you know, I think, I think meet the social media influence has just brought so much fear, it's done so much good. But it's also done so much damage. And I think that, with that constant connection, and that constant flood of information, and news and, and trauma, we're all living through trauma. I mean, look, no further. I don't know if the news has arrived yet. Of what happened in Texas. Okay, so, and I'm really my heartbreaks. For you guys over there. It's just shocking. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, as as someone who taught for so many years, and as the mom of two daughters, both of whom are teachers currently. You know, it's hard, I have so many teacher friends, and just a mom, and anyone who, of course, especially as a parent, can just hear that, that situation about those those poor children and those teachers who were killed. And it's just, it's devastating. And it's like, but we the reason why I'm bringing that up is because the second that happened, the world knew about it. It was everywhere. It was on, it was buzzing on every phone and every tablet on the planet. And so everyone is sharing in that trauma, everyone is experiencing that fear. Everyone is making plans because of it to protect their children. What else can I layer around my child? How else? How better Can I bubble wrap my child and my family and my world. And so we've got those influences in ways that we never had them before. So on the one hand, having something like social media or a phone or the ability to connect with your kids, when they're off in the world, is great, because it's kind of like that umbilical cord is still partially connected. And that's a comforting feeling. But I think we've leaned too heavily into that, to the point where everything is about instant gratification now. Why is my kid not texting me back? What happened to them? Did they get hit by a car? Did they get abducted? Did they I mean, like, so I think that you know, there's a there's a good side and a bad side to this whole social media phenomenon. But I think that, that right there. If I were going to point to one thing that has really done more damage, it's that because now everyone's hearing from every possible angle in the world. What could happen to your kid if you let them out the door? Yeah, you know, and so I think because of that, we've just, maybe our generation, my generation, I guess, has just clamped down an awful lot harder. Out of fear. Yeah. Yeah, it's very fear driven, isn't it? It's that need to keep people safe or stop, stop the bad thing happening or stop them from feeling upset or bad or, you know, emotions that we see as negative or that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I don't want to talk about bad stuff. But as an example, there was years and years ago in Australia, there was some children abducted though, called the Beaumont children. And for years and years and years. That was like the only, I guess, episode of that nature that we all knew about it. This was back in the 60s, I think. And so you know that that thing you're saying about, we're all connected now. Any everything in anything that happens? We all hear about it. So there probably was other stuff going on, but we just didn't know about it. Yeah. So once we know about it, we'll go Oh, no. And yeah, go into that fury action. I'm glad you brought up social media, because that was something I was going to ask you about this notion of perfection, the the way that now because we see this curated version of people's lives, we not everybody, but a lot of people want to present the very best of themselves on social media, you know, which is fair enough, I suppose you want to even want to look good or whatever, but unrealistic, to the point where, you know, it's really not reflective of people's lives. And so it's giving off this false sense of perfection. So then everyone else that's consuming that information, starts to think, oh, no, I must be doing something wrong. My life doesn't look like that. Yeah. Is that something that you sort of you agree with? Oh, yeah. Not only do I Gree with it, but I talk about it, often, I write about it even more often. And I really appreciate the fact that you use the word curate, because when I do talk about it, that is always my go to word. Because that is exactly what's happening. People, people are filtering or curating the best of the best of the best. And in most cases, and I mean, you know, there, I think there's now a happy to see now that there seems to be a little bit of a shift, where people are like, No, that's bullshit. Why am I doing that? Why am I why? Why are we only putting this facade out there? It's this veneer of what's you know, of what we think people want to see or what we want to project. And I think people are getting tired of it quickly, because it's sending such a, you know, such a damaging message. And it's creating, you know, we fall as parents into such a comparison trap, and I write about this, my co author and I write a lot about this, in our most recent book, we have an entire chapter devoted to not know, not falling into this comparison trap. And I think the biggest, the biggest suck into that trap, is what we're seeing on social media, and we really can't avoid it. I mean, do you know, do you honestly also know, a human being at this stage of life that does not have some kind of a device? I mean, unless it's like a newborn. And even I think the newborns, there must be like a newborn tablet or something, right? And they give you this push on. So I mean, it's like, granted, you know, people use things to different degrees. And not everybody who has social, you know, social media is on Instagram, and not everyone is part of Facebook or not, but the majority are, and, you know, when you're in that world, it's impossible to avoid seeing what's being put out there. And when you, you look at that, and you start comparing yourself to that, it's, I don't want to use the word traumatizing because I think that that might be a little bit of a strong word to use, but it's it definitely leaves a mark on you. If you're like, Well, wait a minute, like, how come that mom of 12 children is so beautifully, like she's perfect looking and dressed, you know, dressed like to the, to the nines, and she's, you know, she's she's driving her SUV and she's got her coffee in her hand and all of her children have braids. They're all wearing dresses. She's all made up, like, like, come on, like, this is crap. Like people like you know, I know so many moms who are Like, I couldn't even like, find a robe, to put on myself to get my kid to, like, conceal my, my pajamas to drive my kid to school, you know, you know, like throwing kids into into the school, like throw an apple and a handful of Cheerios at your kid and then dump them in the car. And so it's like, we need, we need that reality check. And we need to stop comparing ourselves because it's just so toxic. And it's so unfortunate because it really I think weighs heavily on people. Even though our rational brains most of us are like, okay, come on, this is dumb. Why am I trying to compare myself to that person? My situation is different. There's this different, but it's like human nature. Oh, yeah. And that's the thing you're not when you're, you know, you're scrolling through your Instagram or your Facebook feed, you're not in, you know, switched on rational mode, you're in relaxed looking at stuff mode. So you do you use, that's your first reaction is to go to that, oh, how come? I can't do that? Or how come she can do that? Or, you know, and then yeah, you might think about it later and go, Oh, this is the list of reasons why perhaps, you know, but yeah, we will we go to it? You mentioned that you're interested in mental health issues. Do you find that that a lot of issues with around people's mental mental health comes from this kind of bombardment of social media and the comparisons and that kind of stuff? I do? I absolutely do. And, you know, again, I'm the mom of two children. And I think back to that time, which was not long ago, it was in my children's lives, when they didn't have this influence, they didn't have this gateway, into a world of other kids their age doing doing all these things. And you know, they didn't have the ability to see the, the birthday party or the bar mitzvah, or the event that they weren't invited to, you know what I mean? Yeah, you can now and, you know, they couldn't get harassed. In this way. It was like, back in the day, when you went to school and you got bullied on the playground, which was bad enough. Now, it's like, there's nowhere in the world you can't get bullied, because you've got, you know, this vehicle that allows that to happen, right in your hand all the time. So I think, again, it's like, you know, I keep using social media, and technology as kind of the catch all for why so many things have escalated. But it's in all fairness, like it is it exists and, and impacting kids mental health is definitely one our mental health to forget about just kids, but it's just as bad, you know, for us to see the, you know, the the girls trip that a whole bunch of the moms, you know, went on, and you didn't go or the big garden party that someone had or, you know, day on the boat that you weren't invited to, it's, you know, it's impossible to ignore it. I think that it depends on who you are. And it depends on how seriously you take that, being bombarded with that all the time. But, I mean, look at the suicide rates in young children right now in adolescent and teenage children. And it's startling, and it's going up. And, you know, every other day, you turn on the news, and you hear about a child who was cyber bullied, and they jumped off a bridge and you hear about a child, you know, who was shamed, you know, who was shamed because of their size? Or, you know, something, you know, that it's, there's bigotry, there's, like, every negative thing in the world can flow through your phone just as easily as every positive thing, and our kids are right there on the other side of it. So I think it's, it's absolutely had a really negative impact. And it's, it's sad. It's sad, and I don't know, you know, aside from putting things like parental controls in place, and really just understanding what your kids are looking at when you're younger kids are a part of that even even as they navigate it and start to be part of it and grow into it. Like we've got to, we've got to really be super focused on what they're focused on. It's too easy to let a lot of the negativity slide Under our radar, and still reach them. And I think it's hard for some parents too, because because we didn't grow up in this world of what's happening to be actually actually aware of what is happening, because I mean, a lot of teenagers aren't, you know, super forthcoming with what's going on in their lives or what they're consuming on their phones. So yeah, to sort of, I don't know, yeah, I don't want to say educate yourselves, because that sounds really patronizing. But, you know, being aware talking to other parents and sort of finding out what sort of stuff your child could be into, or being exposed to, so you actually can help them out and put some boundaries in place, perhaps to sort of limit what they're what they're exposed to. Yeah, I don't I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say to say that I don't think it's patronizing to say that at all, I think it's necessary to say that and even more necessary to act on that, because we're that line of defense, it is our job when they aren't rational enough as young people and they're developing and, you know, those connections are all being made in their brains. It's up to us to create those boundaries. And to keep talking the same talk. And I don't want to say it's rhetoric, because it's not rhetoric, it's important. But it's one of those things as parents, especially young kids, that we have to just keep saying over and over again until you want to throw up and until your kids want to throw up because they're so sick of hearing it, but we keep saying it anyway. Yeah. I want to turn to still looking at social media as a little bit. But the something I really love to talk about guests as talk about with guests on my show is mum guilt and or mommy guilt or mom guilt, whatever you want to call it. What are your thoughts about that whole topic? Oh, wow, I have a lot of thoughts about mom guilt, I also at times have had plenty of mom guilt. It, it is a toxic emotion, because it keeps us from doing the things that I think we need to do. And instead causes us to do things that we think we're supposed to do, like keep our young children busy from the second that they open their eyes in the morning, until the second thing go to bed at night. And we are so afraid of and so consumed by guilt, if we don't have, you know, a four course dinner on the table every night, if we don't have the house clean, if we don't have activities planned, if we don't have social events, if we like all all these things in that and this, this ties in all of this mom guilt ties very heavily into the whole comparison issue. Because we're all looking at everything that everybody around us is doing. And I'm not just talking about on social media, I'm talking about just like in general, we're looking at what everybody is doing around us. And we're feeling such intense feelings of guilt because we're not doing what that family is doing. Or we're that mom is doing and you know, and we're feeling guilty about things that we shouldn't feel guilty about. Like if you love your child, and you're dedicated to supporting your child and inspiring and encouraging your child and, you know, and you're not gonna let your child go hungry, like it's okay, if they have a bowl of cereal for dinner. It's okay, if the laundry is not done. It's okay. If you didn't get dressed today. It's okay. Like, that's the stuff we have to start emphasizing more than the whole idea of checking off every single box or else our day sucks, and we accomplished nothing. And we're guilt ridden because we didn't accomplish all the things that we feel like we're supposed to do. So it's a huge issue. And, and again, you know, it also is another issue similarly in the way that more and more people are starting to show their real selves on social media, which I love. And saying, I'm actually not okay. I'm actually a disaster, and I'm this and I'm bad and that's owning it and being honest In the same way, I think moms are starting to recognize that this whole guilt thing is complete bullshit that they shouldn't buy into it, because it's just going to chip away at your soul and your confidence and your self esteem. Because if you don't, and this goes back to perfection, if you don't, if you don't do everything the way you think you're supposed to do it, now you're riddled with guilt. And now you're in capacity. So it doesn't know what yeah, it just serves no purpose to anybody does. It's such a, it's a horrible thing. I hate it. I just think it's a load of crap. It is even just makes me so cross. It's. Yeah. And I just want to hug all the moms all at once every moment, like, let go. Yes. Yep. Yeah, I had, I had some ladies on, I had like, four, four mums on at one time for a Mother's Day special few weeks ago. And they one of the ladies had written a letter to mum guilt. And it was like, Mum, guilt, you're a bitch, I need to read that it was really good. Really. And that's the thing, like, as well as like, not, like admitting that we're not going great admitting that, you know, I don't want to say a failure, I'm putting that in air quotes. But you know, that it actually is normal to not be doing everything, as well as you had hoped, like, these expectations that we feel like, we've got to do it this way. You know, for whatever reason, because we've been judged, or because someone told us, we should do that this way. Or, for whatever reason, you know, and to say, I actually, I don't buy into that stuff, you know, it's a really, it's a really powerful thing to say, and then to share with other mums. And they might go, oh, actually, I was feeling a bit like that. But I didn't know whether I should feel like that, you know, doubting yourself. And creating this whole movement of this, you know, giving the middle finger to monkeys. I know, I love that. And I appreciate and support that so much. Because I think that so much of what motivates us to, to, to, to reach a place of guilt, or to compare ourselves to other people in the first place comes from, directly from our ego, as we're doing this thing that so many millions of people before us have done and so many people alongside us are doing. And there's this internal voice that says like, Oh, of course, like, I can totally do it, like they do it, like I should be able to do that. Right? I should be able to have six kids, and also run a business and also have a like, a Better Homes and Gardens house and look amazing. And besides to and, you know, it goes on and on and on. But, and I think that when we can't, or don't do the things that, you know, we feel are the things that should be done. You know, that's, that's when it chips away at us. And, and it kind of breaks us it breaks our spirit, because then it's like, well, how come they can do it? I can't show that I'm failing at it. Yeah, that's the reason that we've we've got a hold up that, again, that perfection that everything's fine this facade of, you know, I see. Yeah. I really think people are getting more comfortable with that feeling of saying that, that they you know, not projecting the perfect world. I think I think we are getting better slowly. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's what I've been begging people to talk about now, for? Well, well over a decade. You know, I moderate a group on Facebook that I that I started now, it's been years, it's been several years ago. And it's on Facebook, it's a public group, and it's called the vomit booth. And it's just a place that marries kind of everything that I do in terms of, you know, writing and speaking and kind of philosophies of parenthood, the humanistic common sense views of parenthood, and I brought it to this place where it could have an interactive component and people could actually come into this group and talk about the good stuff and the bad stuff and bond together and share together and the idea of it being a place where you could kind of like hurl out vomit up whatever it is, that's that's troubling you or holding you back and that people someone's there to hold your hair back while you let it out. And you can listen and vent and, and some incredible conversations over the past several years have come out because it's a place that I really encourage people to like If you're not okay, if you're struggling with XY or z, if you feel inadequate, like, let it out, share it, start that conversation, because I guarantee you that there are 10 million other people feeling the same way. But nobody wants to be like, nobody wants to be the first one to talk in the elevator. Yeah, like, just but once somebody does, everybody starts talking. So that's what we want to do. Yeah, that reminds me that analogy of the first one to talk when I in Australia, we have this thing called Moms groups where after you have your baby, they, they put you with complete strangers, they're just people that happen to have their child at the same time as you. So you put in with these people that you have nothing else in common with, apart from your baby came out at the same time you need. That's all you need. That's the common denominator. And I remember one of the first sessions we went to, and I was, you know, things were not going well. And everyone goes around the circle and says how they're going. And everyone seemed to be going really well. And I was sitting there thinking, why is everyone going so good? What is wrong with me? You know, what's wrong with my baby? Why am I struggling? And then, when it was my turn, I think I said something. I tried to make a joke like, Oh, I'm glad you're all going so great, because I'm not and then just My life sucks. Right now. I shared all the crap things about the no sleep and the sore boobs and we couldn't breastfeed. And when I broke the ice with that, that's when everyone started to be more honest. And it was like, Oh, thank God, like we can be honest. Yeah. Yeah, it's just yeah. That's what it takes. And then then, then everybody comes out of the woodwork. And then everyone's like, Oh, but wait, but me, but this, but that we're outdoing each other with worse stories. Exactly. And, and you know, not not to take the focus off of parenting, which is what I know we're spending so much time talking about to circle it back for a second to mental health. That is exactly. And this applies to children. And parents, obviously, it applies to mental health in the sense that once we start vocalizing are not being okay, or our struggle, or our fear, or whatever it is, once we put it out there, there is almost always going to be someone who will then connect with that, and then we'll have some kind of a similar experience or know someone or, or understand on a deeper level, and then it just, it's like self perpetuating, then all of a sudden, that dialogue starts and it's that's why it's so important what whatever space you're in, in the world, whether it's the mental health space, or the parenting space, or the marriage space. It's not communication, that can change everything that can elevate you from a place of silently suffering or feeling shame or being stuck to it elevates you to a place where okay, I'm not alone anymore. And other people know what I feel like and other people may have done some things can suggest some things that will, that will be useful to me. And that's why this there's so much incredible power in our shared experiences. But they do no one any good if we don't share them Yeah. Yeah, that mental health is at least interesting one, I think. People are really afraid to share that. It's like, the way I sort of compare like, if you've got a broken leg, you're not going to be scared to go to the doctor to say, Hey, could you fix my leg? But for some reason, we were so worried about being judged by I don't know, it's, it seems like we've we've failed somehow, but we're not actually in control of the, you know, the chemical imbalances in our brains. But we've sort of learned, I guess, from previous generations that that's something you don't talk about. And, you know, I had an experience where I had quite bad postnatal depression with both my children. And I shared I did a podcast years ago with a mental health group in my town. And then that then snowballed into it was like a group of community people that were known in the community members that that would be identified, sort of through whether they like it as me as a singer. There was like, people that own shops like just pick faces that you know, in the community, and we ended up with these great big banners. They put us on these banners and put us all around town with the little like cute barcode scan, listen and listen to the podcast. And my dad said to me, are you sure you want everyone to know what happened to you? I said, Yes, that I do. This is exactly why I'm doing it. Because I want people to know that it is normal is nothing to be ashamed of. It's like normalizing this discussion around mental wellness or mental unwellness. And I don't know, it's like, yeah, that generation, it's like, Oh, don't don't talk about that sort of stuff, you know? Well, we had no, you're right. 1,000%. Right. And I love the fact that you did that, because that is what we should all be doing. And I know, it's a lot harder for some than others. There are a lot of people out there who are, you know, very introverted, and very uncomfortable sharing. But the fact of the matter is that there has always been such a deep dark stigma associated with mental illness. I mean, I think back to, you know, another generation before me to my parents generation, though, I lost my father to suicide when I was 10 years old, thank you. And I didn't find out about his suicide until I was in my mid 40s. So 35 years later, I found out about it. Not at all, because my mother felt like it was shameful, had nothing to do with it whatsoever, my mother was just strictly trying to protect me, I had already lost my person to have told me at that time, when I was 10 years old, that it was his decision would have shattered me beyond repair. So in that sense, I'm so grateful that she did that. But it had nothing to do with a stigma. But still, at that time, and for so many decades later, until just really in recent history, it isn't, wasn't something you talked about, it was something that automatically, by default, gave you kind of a black mark, and made you feel less than or made you appear less than even if it didn't, it did in your own head because of the narrative that was associated with it. And, you know, it's like the same reason why parents were so reluctant to say that their children had learning disabilities, or that their children had mental health issues. And same thing, they didn't, they didn't want that stigma to be attached, but it's only in doing what you did, or what I began to do, which is to talk in every space I possibly can about my father's story, to help encourage other people to share their story, or their trauma or their grief or their, their illness, because that's how we change. That's how we normalize it. And that's how we change that narrative. You know, I think of it in in so many different ways, when I think of what happened to my father, and how it's impacted me in my life. You know, there's the loss that I felt as a 10 year old, then there's the loss that I felt, so I have grieved his death now twice in my life, you know, once his child and once as a grown, married mother of two children. And, you know, I think about the power that's within that story, both as a child and a survivor of suicide loss, and someone who has had to kind of travel that arc of forgiveness. And I also think about it in terms of like, when I really found out the truth, my girls were teenagers, I had one, just entering high school, I had one who was graduating from high school, and, you know, my oldest, has, has had mental health issues and has had anxiety and some depression and is very open about it. And, you know, getting help for it has changed your life, it's changed, you know, because as you said a little while ago, these are things it's like, if you were born, if you were born with six fingers on your hand, you would be someone who was born with six fingers on your hand, and that was beyond your control. And in that same exact way, like someone's born with a heart condition or someone God forbid, has cancer. It's, it is no different. The mental health challenges, issues, diagnoses, whatever you want to call them, that we have as human beings like that is that is beyond our control. And we need to be treated in the same way that you would treat someone with heart disease or cancer or whatnot or a broken leg. Yep. So yeah, my my, my goal at that time once I kind of arrived at a place of really, truly understanding why my father, I don't know the reason why I will never know the reason why. And that haunted me for a long time. It doesn't anymore. I just know that my father had so much mental illness that was undetected by anybody in our family, but he it was not being here anymore, whether it was for our benefit or his was the only solution. And so I've come to accept that but I've also accepted the fact that my father had so much gin netic like the genetic cocktail in my poor dad's body, from where he grew up and how he grew up, and the mental illness that existed in his family, like that's in my destiny that's in my children. And what really inspired me, I think, to start talking in general about it to my children in particular, was, like, you guys may not feel this way or that way now, or have these feelings or emotions or thoughts now, maybe when you're 22, maybe when you're 26, maybe when you're 30, maybe, you know, these, these things don't always surface immediately. And I wanted them to know like, look, this is, here's your DNA. Here's, here's what could be in your DNA. And here's what it might look like in you. Because here's what it looks like in him, I have certain tendencies or issues. I'm an empath. I feel everything as though I'm grabbing on to like an electrified wire, all the good and the bad in my life house, and I feel it like I'm holding a live wire. And I know, that's how it manifested in me, but I wanted to have that conversation with my kids so that they would know and be able to have an open line of communication. Like, I'm okay, I'm feeling weird. I need to talk to someone I knew. So, yeah. Yeah. No, thanks for sharing that it's worth. It's yeah, thank you. It's really great. So that, that you're able to share it. Because like you said, there's so many people that can't for whatever reason, and that sort of reason why I feel like I sort of want to help those people in my own way by sharing my story, because maybe they can't, but that, like you said before, you know, they might take something from it, they might go, oh, I can empathize with that I, I experienced that. Or I understand what you mean by that. And that might give them the little nudge to, to reach out and do what they need to do. Yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. Identity is another thing that I really love talking about this, you know, that we're, we're a woman, we're having this amazing life. We're doing all these things, and then we become a mother. And then it seems that our sole purpose is then to, you know, be a mother, that we might lose other components of ourselves that we had three children, or all? Yeah, yeah. So Oh, and yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people through these podcasts. And there's so many varying degrees of experience with that, which is wonderful. Because, you know, we're all different in that it's great to share. Have you got some thoughts about that? Topic? Yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of thoughts, a lot of odds, a lot of experience with it. Yeah, I mean, I was definitely lost for a period of time, for sure. In my life. Probably around the time that I chose to stay home, my husband and I agreed, you know, that, that I would stay home. He was, you know, the primary breadwinner at the time. And, and it made sense, just economically, that I would be the one. And I was in that place that you talked about, like that incredible place of, Oh, I know exactly what my purpose is. My purpose is those two little humans and, and teaching them and growing them and nurturing them and loving them and doing everything for them. And you get lost in that place. And I'm not saying that that's not a beautiful place, and you have children, and obviously you have children to be devoted to those children and raise them and whatnot. But as I think we've all realized, over the past, I would say probably five years or so 10 years or so, maybe just even five self care is something self care and preserving or creating our own identity simultaneously, is so necessary, it is imperative that we do that. And so many of us just kind of pack up our former identity, and just put it in a little box and put it in the back of the closet. And that's where it stays. And we're so you know, laser focused on our kids. That then all of a sudden, and it happens all of a sudden, you know, it is gradual, but then it's not because all of a sudden you're at that point where you're like, well, they don't need me at all, for almost anything except maybe some cash from time to time. And laundry and food. So, and then all of a sudden you're like What the hell am I What am I supposed to do now? Like, where do I go? What do I do and, and it's really hard. And I was definitely in that space. And what really did help me was kind of this organic, tripping and falling into this life within the school system that I had. And that became a path that felt right to me for so many years. And for so many reasons. You know, and then I had a chance to, you know, write books for a living and do what I'm doing now. And it evolved, but it was only because I basically, like pulled on my big girl pants and said, I, I have to have something that is for me, I have to figure out what that is, and who that is. And you know, and honor what I need for my life. Because I've just spent the last, you know, 20 something years, giving my children what they needed. And the more attention that I started paying on myself. And the more I did for the benefit of my own growth, and the more I prioritized that the healthier I was everywhere else in my life, like bottom line, and it was work. It was working, and it continues to be work. But it's such powerful, unnecessary work. Hmm. You know, so lately, That's it, isn't it? Yeah, that's something that I, I could not exist without things for myself, honestly, I just go, like, go more mental than I am now. No, I get it, I get it have to have, it's just, ah, I don't know. I, it's so it is so necessary. And you know, it's interesting, like, like, I was saying before, like, I couldn't, I couldn't be a stay at home mom, like I just, I have so much respect for for moms that do that, because I just couldn't do it. You know, and we're all different in what we need. And, and that kind of stuff. I just Yeah, I don't know. But first of all, there's nothing I love better than a good Blab. That's, you know, that's where all the best ideas and you know, and experiences come from our blabbing. But like, I just have such respect for for all the different varieties of parenting that there are out there, like you've got the stay at home mom, or you've got the mom that those the hybrid, or you've got the mom that goes into the office every day or, you know, and every thing in between. And, you know, there's, there's just so much credit, I think to be given, for people who understand, like, this is where I'm really good. This is where I'm really great. And this is where I need to make sure that a lot of my attention is focused, and but it's also over here too. So it's like, you know, it's just it, we're constantly building on ourselves. And, and, and I love that there's so much inspiration for doing it in so many different ways. And there isn't one way that's, that's better or more accomplished than any other way. They're just great examples. And that just inspires me when I see that. Yeah. And it kind of this, this, someone's going off on a tangent never it kind of makes me it makes me sad for a lot of sets the word, but it Yeah, it does. It makes me sad for for previous generations of women whose role it was exclusively to be a mother, you know, like, there wasn't a choice. It was like, when you got pregnant, you left work, because you had to give the jobs to the single women, right? When they got married, they had to quit their jobs. You know, just all the things that women would have wanted to do. You know, and if they did do it, they were judged so harshly for, you know, doing the wrong thing. And putting that in air quotes again. You know, just the opportunities that we have now, because of the work that previous generations have done to get us to this point is tremendous. Because I just think if I hadn't lived in that era of my grandmother, yeah, I would. I would know, you and I would have gone on an island somewhere. Like another community where we could do anything we wanted because i It's funny, I often think about that my daughter, my oldest and I seem to fall into this conversation all the time about different periods of time, where we felt she she would have preferred living during like, caveman era for something she's got lots of wrist very funny, lots of reasons why, but with that I don't need to go into but that was like her period of time. And I, you know, I would have loved to have lived I think during the 60s. I mean, I was a child of the 60s but I was an infant. I would have liked to have had that experience because it was such an explosive period of time in the world. But I also think that you I don't think I could have survived it just like you like, I know, like, I would have known if I was the person I am today that back then I would have been like, Oh, hell no, like, I'm gonna work. No, like equal salary equal opportunity. I'm gonna work from home, my husband's gonna raise the kid, you know, and I think I made it would have made a lot of enemies back then because I just wouldn't have tolerated it. But yeah, we owe a huge debt of gratitude to those, you know, those pioneers who came before us for sure. Absolutely. stuff without them. Oh, yeah. See, even like, when I watch, I really love period dramas. I can't even think like the Jain is and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, you just think those those skills there are in? What's that one that's on the British and, you know, you get a taste for it. There's one of the daughters, who just, you know, wants to do our own thing doesn't want to get married, you know, you just think how much of that would have gone on. But no one would have had a choice. It's just you had to do this, you had to marry this bloke for money, because it kept your family going, you know, all the sacrifices that women would have made to think Christ at night. Just, it's, it's really disturbing. Like, read it. i Yeah, it's disturbing. And I also feel like such deep sadness that so many generations of women had to live such a pressed lives, and we're so limited and these brilliant, capable humans, were forced to do like, one of three things. Either you were going to be a teacher, or you were, you know, a mother or a homemaker or that was it. And, um, yeah, we we've, we've definitely come a long way. And, you know, I'm excited to see how much further we can go. But like, I'm just really grateful that I'm kind of living in the period of time that I'm living right now. Yeah. I would not have made it yet. You, so you mentioned your daughter there. Briefly, I wanted to ask, as a mom of two girls, is it important for you to sort of role model the fact that as a mom, you can do anything you want? That? You can? You can? Yeah, the sky's the limit, basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's always been incredibly important to me. And I think that the reason why it's, it's so deeply embedded in me is because of my own mother, and because of what my own mother has both gone through and accomplished in in her life. I mean, my mother, you talk about, like what people were supposed to do at certain times, you know, in history, my mother, when she went to school, went to high school was, was just such a strong and capable student she loved, she loved school, she loved the whole learning process. But she came from a family that was a very lower income family, everybody worked, and she wanted to go off to college, they couldn't afford college. So as soon as she graduated with honors from high school, she went to work with my grandmother. And so, you know, then my mother got married and worked a part time job in a nursing home. And my all of all of my experiences with you know, when I think of strong women, it all traces back to what my mother did. My mother was became a widow when she was 40. She had never had a college degree. She had to raise now a family by herself, a child by herself live in a home by herself. And my mother went back to school, six months after my father passed away, went back to college for five years at night, got her degree, worked, got a good job, you know, was the most present and hands on parent and it was because of that, like, I saw that. I saw that, you know, my mother and I used to do homework together in her bedroom at four and 5am in the morning, because that's the only time she could do it. She wanted to do it in a way that it wouldn't disrupt our dynamic. And so I started doing that with her and it just she and she alone was the one that that proved to me that like the sky is the limit. You can do anything that you set your mind to that women are so resilient. Humans are so resilient and I always wanted my daughters to feel that way. So it's, you know, when I started getting opportunities to do the things that I really wanted to do, like, I wanted to be on the radio, I wanted to write books, I, you know, I wanted to put myself out there, it was scary as hell, because, you know, you put content out there on a regular basis, and you know, that not everybody receives what you put out there well, and I was like, nope, gonna, gonna go gonna go ahead and do it. And as a result, you know, my, I've watched my daughters grow into their independence and want to just kind of, like, grab life by the throat and say, here I come. And it's beautiful. And it's, it's necessary, and if it doesn't come from us, it's gonna be a lot harder for them to be wired that way in their life. So that's it, isn't it? Yeah, when they get from us, and, and my husband too, is, is has always been so is, you know, inspiring in that way, and supportive and, you know, has built us up and motivated us and encouraged us to, you know, and supported us to get out there and do all the things. You know, so having those positive influences really makes a huge impact. Yeah, that's it is it? It's like they, if they grow up with that, that that positive messaging from the beginning, it's like, that's, they're gonna take that through their lives and keep passing it on. And, you know, that just keeps rolling on all that. All that good stuff. Yeah, yeah. Something I've just started talking to moms about, I'm gonna make it an official topic, because I'm getting really interested in this lately. It's funny how like, like, you're talking before how you get led in certain ways, and you do different things that you might have been planning. Same happens with, like, the topics I talk about, they sort of evolve over time. And one thing that keeps coming up is this, the value, a big thing is through the pandemic, when things got shut down, as particularly in Australia, you know, we had the restriction on movements between our states, but our sports people, mainly sports men, were able to basically do whatever they liked, or the football and the soccer or continued, but the arts and anything sort of creative, like performance, you know, the shows, all that sort of stuff, that all got shut down. And that sort of is sort of sparked a bit of a, a conversation or a thoughts around the value that we place on the arts, and then that sort of snowballed into the value that we place on a mother that is a creator, you know, is it? Is it okay for her to do that? Because that's not a roll. Putting that in air quotes again. Yeah, you know, she's meant to raise children. So how do we view the mother? That is the Creator? Do you have any thoughts on that? I've just spread me sweat on you. Yeah, no, I like I like when people throw questions like that at me that I don't see coming. You know, I think that it goes back to what we talked about a little while ago, that we, we and I say we, in terms of women, mothers have had to fight for our position. And, and it's been a very challenging fight. And, you know, I think by default, we, you know, when you think of parents, you naturally just automatically assume that the mother is going to be that prime caregiver. And that that has to be kind of the ultimate responsibility that, you know, that overshadows any other thing that that woman may be that you know, that she she may be a professional, she may be an artist, she may be a creator, any of those things, like, we've got to shove all that aside for 18 or so years. And we've got to focus on on, you know, the mom being the mom. I think, I think it's trending, but I don't know what you're seeing in Australia now that we're, I don't want to say that we're out of a pandemic, because we are by no means out of it. But I think that you know, I don't want to put it in these terms, but I think it is just, it's just but in these terms by default, you talk about like, oh, well, it was okay for the footballers and the men to keep doing what they were doing. Well, they were making money. It was commercial, they were making money. And I'm not to say that artists like I know that you're a singer and a songwriter, and you know, and those who are kind of deep within the arts aren't making money but they sure as hell aren't making money on the same scale, as you know, professional teams and things like that. So I think that they just got a free pass. Yeah. And we still had to stay kind of, you know, had to be kept in this role of, Oh, you guys have to be there to take care of everything else. While you know, well, well, you know, the money is being made. And, you know, there's, you know, the energy surrounding this, these, these sports and, and what comes from them has to be supported, you guys have to do the rest because by virtue of you know, parenting, I mean, it's you know, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of caregivers are moms are women. Not that there aren't plenty of stay at home dads and caregivers who are dads, but that's our role. And we have to just keep kind of breaking out of that. That, that place of that identity. And, and I think it all goes, it travels right back to the whole, you know, self care and identity conversation that we had a few minutes ago. Where's it we can't tolerate that anymore. That's the thing. We have to say, our art or our craft or our inspiration, or our creativity is just as important. And just as as necessary, and we have to fight for it. And it sucks that we have to do so much active promoting it and fighting for it. But we do and we have to do that collectively. And that's that's how we change that tide. Yeah. You know, your thoughts about it? Yeah, the thing that, yeah, then the monetary thing is a big one, isn't it? Because we obviously live in a capitalist society. So money drives pretty much everything. And that's something that has really been annoying me lately, too. It's like, because because what you're doing doesn't have a similar monetary value to what someone else is doing. It's just automatically not given the credit that the other thing is given. And that's something that annoys me. Oh, and, and I think it annoys me too. And I'm glad that we're talking about it, because it's by virtue of conversations like this, like whoever it is, that's listening to us right now. If they share that feeling, well, then that's, then there's a domino effect there. And then this conversation extends beyond you and I and extends beyond the podcast, and then it gets other people talking and gets other people aware. And then there's, then we have to kind of collectively not tolerate it anymore, recognize it? And then start talking about it so that it can be addressed. And it can change. Absolutely, yeah. And I think an example that I always go to, with this show, whenever we start talking about value, monetary value, and how society generally, judges creativity, or the arts. There was a, I'm gonna get this story wrong every time I feel like I change it every time I tell it. But one of my guests gave me an example of how her and her sister in law both had young children that the grandma was going to be looking after, while the moms were working. The grandma would look after the sister in law's children, because she was going to a proper job in a proper office, putting their near quotes again. But she wouldn't look after the artists children, because she was just fluffing it out. She wasn't actually working. And I'm praying that air quotes get. And that's just, I mean, that's could be potentially a generational thing too. But oh, sure, for sure. Yeah, it's just that kind of view of the arts and mother's creating, it just gives me the sheets and really, you know what it is? I think it's not it's like it's there's a stigma about it, that you're like taking your one in a million shot. Like if you think of, of someone who's a singer, songwriter, you know, you're doing that as a as a child or young person, you'd come home and tell your parents I'm not going to conventional following the conventional path and going to college. I'm going to pursue my degree in acting or my my acting, passion or my music, passion or my songwriting, passion, whatever it is. And I think that because it there's such a minority of people who become successful on a level that people equate with success, like you have to have like an album out to be successful. You have to have a book out to be successful. You know what I mean? There's so much. There's so many different degrees of success within that but I think that that it's it's based on? Well, it's not really legitimate, like, you're just, you know, you're just writing, you know, some some fluffy little songs here or there or you're, you know, you're painting some pretty little pictures here and there that there's no real substance or value or, or monetary piece that you can attach. So that it's like, it's it legitimized. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I think that's where a good deal of the issues come from. And, you know, you think of these proper tracks, college leads to job leads to financial security. Well, people are only now just recognizing that that is not the only way. That is not the only path that is not the only measure of success like that, that that dollar sign cannot, cannot be attached to the word success anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, it just reminded me of this conversation, my son, my oldest son's 14, and he's just having to start choose his subjects for next year school. So this, you know, the pathway to whatever job he wants to do, they're starting the subjects now. And I keeps my husband's a financial planner. So humans are completely different brains, the way we think about a thing. And I keep saying to him, just do something that you enjoy doing, you know, find the thing you're passionate about, work out, if there's job around that, you know, if there's not one, make one, you know, what I mean? Like, find something that you love to do. And then my husband's like, I'll make sure you get enough money. So it's like, yeah, covering it from both sides. Yeah, that's, it's hard. Because I mean, look, we can't ignore the fact that bills have to be paid. Our kids at some point, down the line are going to have to be self sufficient. They're going out, they're going to need to live on their own, or they're going to have to buy food and gas and, and, you know, support all the things that, you know, are involved in living independently. But it's like, it's it just bums me out, when we attach like, well, you have to do you have to have a six figure job to do that well to mean that, that you are successful. And it's, it's crap. And it's setting our kids up, to be really disillusioned about doing what they really want. It's, you know, it's setting them up to believe that they shouldn't do what they really want. They should do what they really have to do. Yeah, I mean, we do have to keep it real in the sense that our children do have to learn how to support themselves. But at the same time, too, we can't, we can't make them believe that, you know, there's only one way to do that. And there's only one level at which they should aspire to do that. Yeah, that's it, isn't it. The other thing that I think is changing when we're talking about money, and, and things, there's the whole culture, I don't know. I certainly noticed over here, but it's changing now, but this culture on social media of this hustle, and you've got to always be doing something and, you know, I can't think of any, like, Girlboss and all these sort of hashtags. And it's like, you have to be driving really hard. And it's just, it's exhausting. Like, you just think when do you have time when, like, this self care, you know, actually, resting rest is not a reward for doing rest is, you know, should be something that we do naturally, because our bodies aren't supposed to go full bore all the time. You know, that culture around that, I feel like is, is definitely shifting, which is really good. It definitely is. I mean, you know, there's definitely this population that believes, especially these millennials, who believe like, you've got to have a side hustle. And you've got to also have a side hustle. And you've got to be in constant motion, and you've got to be that much more driven and that much more successful and that much more capable. And, and I think that's just coming from a place like in particular with women, it just comes from everything that you and I have already talked about in terms of like, we're kind of fighting for a position we're fighting still, to be taken seriously to be viewed equally, to be respected to, you know, and so it's, it's almost like we just, you know, we have to just go at it a lot harder to be taken even more seriously. And that's unfortunate that we that we kind of innately feel that way Yeah, it's just, it's unfortunate. And I hope that as as time goes on, and we begin to kind of normalize success, you know, you know, across across the gender spectrum, like it's, it's, you know, be just as successful as a man or a woman anything. That's, you know, it's going to take time for, I think, us to let go of that, that internal drive. Because I think it's burning a lot of people out, it's really hurting people out. You know, and I think it's causing people to be, you know, to put themselves in positions that they might not want to put themselves in, because they, you know, or do things in terms of like, jobs and opportunities, just because they feel like they have to versus they want to. Yeah, so hopefully those two scales will eventually balance. Hmm. Yeah. composure of hustle the way we do? Oh, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, it's funny, like, all this stuff that is ingrained in us as, as kids and growing up like, you always had, like college, like we call it University over here, but it doesn't have the same I don't think has the same sort of end goal. Like for you guys, like every, I'm making an assumption, but on TV shows and movies, it's like, everyone goes to college. Over here, uni is not, we don't all go to uni, it's like, if you get a job out of school, that's almost the best thing you can do. But I remember, like, like, my dad worked really long hours. You know, I think a lot of us grew up with that, that nine to five, or, you know, eight to six sort of culture around you, your parents or your your dad working. And it's like, that's what you're supposed to do, you know, and then all of a sudden, you go, Oh, actually, I don't really like this. And it's like, you start to no question stuff and see what people around you are doing. I remember the first time I realized that, I had a friend who was only working part time. And like this was when I was, you know, just out of school working as like, how can you do that? Are you supposed to be working full time? This is like, No, it was a foreign concept. From what I'd grown up, we'd say, you know, again, these little changes. And, yeah, well, it's like the whole millennial mindset. Now. And I talk about this a lot with my older daughter in particular, because even though there's only three years in between our girls, it was a, it's a big enough gap that my oldest mindset about certain things is quite different than my youngest. And they're both very, very hard workers. You know, my oldest is in graduate school right now to be a teacher. And she's also working full time and my youngest works full time in the school system. But it's funny, like, you look at the millennial, the millennial mind nowadays, and they're all like, I don't want to be an I'm not going to be in an office, I'm not going to take that job that I'm applying for, if it means I actually have to go into an office or if it means I have to travel, they're like, no, no, I'm really focusing on my work life balance right now. Like that whole generation is not having it at all. And I think too, that you know, and this goes back to one of the, like, if you have to attach a silver lining to what's happened pandemic wise, it's allowed us to do so many things from home that we otherwise just that weren't allowed before. And so it's brought the world much closer, it's made everyone and everything much more accessible as the upside. And, you know, I just look at the way that my children are now and all of these millennials are like, yeah, um, so I've been working from home for like, the last 18 months, and I'm really not planning on continuing my company, if my company is not going to allow us to do that, you know, it's just so funny. You know, and now they're all like, converting vans, and living van life and working remotely from like, deserts and, you know, and, and beaches. And, and I absolutely know that if I had been born now, if I was my 25 year old age, I would 1,000% be working remotely, I would have like a Ford van that was converted, and I would be like on the coast of Australia somewhere down the road from you, and I take home from a van and you know, and and they're they're not settling for that so they things so I guess the reason why I'm saying all that about my own kids is because it's just proof that that that tide has changed. thing that they're prioritizing. They're worse. And they're prioritizing that, that work life balance and that self care a lot more in this generation. And they're not tolerating the idea of the whole, like, nine to five and the way that it used to be like, he's so good, it's wonderful. Yeah, that's interesting about during the pandemic, like all this stuff that people would sit on, that's never possible. You can't do this, and you can't do that. And it's like, actually, you can. It's wonderful. You know, and I don't know, we learned a lot. I mean, it was horrible, still is a horrible thing that, you know, a lot of families and people have gone through, which is been really not very nice. But there has been some positives come out for, for the whole of humanity, I think, looking at things differently and challenging. Yeah. And it's that old saying, like, you know, why do we do it this way? Because we've always done it that way, you know, that, that? And I think that's a real sort of, I don't know, almost a masculine mindset. And I want to say that it sounds nasty, but no, reminds me of something my dad would say. Yeah, no, I get it. I understand why you would say that. It's, it's just because historically, that has been the mindset. That's the way things were for generations. You know, think of the hierarchy who it was that instituted those ideas and those values and you're not wrong. Yeah, I don't want to blame all the boys but we're finger pointing at you guys history. Have you got anything you want to share that you're working on at the moment or future projects coming up? Anything you want to give a shout out to and share? Where people can find you online? And that kind of stuff? Yeah, sure. I'd love to. I think I mentioned a little earlier that one of the things that's got a lot of my focus right now is mental health, and suicide prevention and awareness. And that that actually slides right into the project that I'm working on right now, which is another book that really uses my father's story, the story of my my father suicide, as just a vehicle for starting conversations and for helping people just through my own personal experience, helping people kind of travel that that road to forgiveness, if they're a survivor of suicide loss. And so that's, that's something that I'm kind of deep in the weeds with right now, doing a ton of work on and then working to be a crisis counselor with a crisis agency here in, in the United States, that I'm actually very, very excited about because that kind of all goes hand in hand. So I'm working on that. And just continuing to do lots of speaking and writing about parenting, just the way that I'm doing now on all the outlets here in the States and around, you know, around the world that that help families be happy. So that's what I'm working on. And you can find me anywhere. I mean, you can find me, my website is Lisa sugarman.com. And everything I'm working on is kind of in that one spot. Instagram is Lisa underscore Sugarman, the Lisa Sugarman on Facebook, you can join the vomit booth if you search the vomit booth on Facebook we can I will I will let you in you can just curl it all up oh definitely going to check that out. I'm really really interested in that. That sounds really good. I want all of your moms in your in your community in your area in your part of the world I want to know what's you know, what's affecting you and bringing all this it's like a clown car you can I'll millions of moms and dads and stuff you. I love it. Thank you so much for coming on later. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a really great conversation. I I've loved I've loved every minute of it too. And it's so fun for me to just to especially to hear what's going on in places where I you know, I don't I don't frequent I don't I know know what, you know what's happening in your part of the world the way You do. And so it's it's often fun to find out, you know that some things are different and some things are similar. And at the end of the day like we still It proves my point that no matter where you are and what you're doing as a mom, it's like, we're, you know, we're all part of the same community and the same family here, and we're all dealing with the same stuff. So it's fun to be able to come together and share that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for sharing so openly. And honestly, I really appreciate it. And I know my listeners will appreciate it, too. So yeah, thanks so much. Pleasure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.