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Sarah Hens Australian blogger S3 Ep93 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Sarah Hens, Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in NSW Australia, and a mum of 1. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life, Sarah was compelled to record her own experience with preeclampsia , eclampsia and birth trauma . She used wriiting as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget (at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness), but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially Sarah's words were only for herself, and she didn't expect to share it, however as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience she could help others, and particularly share a voice in Australia. She also shares other's through her blog The Pesky Placenta Society. ***Please be aware this episode conains a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, PND, PTSD and a near death medical episode*** Sarah - Website / Instagram / Sarah's pre ecampsia story Podcast - instagram / website Downtown Abbey episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. And welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here for wherever you are around the world. Want to take this opportunity to remind you to subscribe to my weekly email. You'll be the first to hear about the upcoming episodes, who's on next week, and some other little gifts and discounts and other things that I'd like to share. Just head to the webpage Alison newman.net/podcast and you'll scroll down and see the signup sheet. This week. My guest is Sarah hens. Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in Sydney, New South Wales, and she's a mom of one. Sarah has a background as a social worker and has spent many years working in the department for Child Protection. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life Sara was compelled to record her own experiences with preeclampsia, preeclampsia and a tremendous birth trauma. She used her writing as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness, but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially, Sarah's words were only meant for herself. She didn't expect to share it. However, as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience, she could help others and particularly share a voice from Australia. She also now shares other's stories through her blog that pesky placenta society. Please be aware this episode is quite full on. It does contain a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, postnatal depression, PTSD, and a near death medical experience. I really appreciate Sara's openness and honesty in sharing in today's episode. Thanks so much for coming on. Sarah. It's lovely to meet you today. Thanks for having me. That's absolute pleasure. And I I have heard that this is your first podcast so it's exciting to have you all. Oh, don't be nervous. We just pretend it's you and me. We're just having a fun chat. With like literally 1000s of people listening. Not that many maybe. So good. So good fun. So we're about to finish Australia. I am on Derek country in the Blue Mountains in South Wales beautiful Yeah, yes. It's very lovely. I've been from Derek country my whole life so I was on a different different part in the Hawkesbury in the mountains gal. Beautiful I've never been a bit I've seen plenty of photos and yeah you neither is it the three sisters and we've got 45 minutes from there so I'm not going to lower like pretty much the first bit of the ego call Mountain is where it is and then there's lots more mountain often Yeah, right i Oh awesome. Oh lovely. That sounds like a nice place to live. So are you a fairway from Sydney? Where you are then? All the closer Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Do you go into Sydney much you have to go in? Often I was it was weird. So obviously with COVID we're all stuck you know for ages but I went to the opera house for two different shows like three weeks taught and I haven't been there for so long. I went there twice in one month so that was pretty good. I do love a city day because I don't really there I find the city very interesting and like you Yeah, I couldn't imagine living in a city. I mean, I've I mean Adelaide and and if you've ever been to Adelaide, but that's not exactly a proper city. It's like a bit country town. Basically, everyone chases Adelaide because it's yeah, it's easy to drive in. So it's not really a city. Fucking like a map of Sydney. No one knew literally, was the first place that any one job like anything. Yeah, yeah, they weren't, weren't considering the future when they made Sydney. Really were they, too but yeah, that's nice for a visit. I haven't been there for a long time. But yeah, nice for trip. But I would hate to live in a place like that. I just, it's not my thing. I like a bit of space around me. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, so you by trade, a social worker? When did you first get into that sort of thing? Was it something you're always interested in? Being when you're growing up? Not professionally, I think I have been like a little social worker from the beginning. My mom actually said years like after I decided to actually study it. She was like, I knew you were going to be that because I was just always that person that like the kids at school that are having my mom and dad were having issues or, you know, they'd always come and find me and like be crying in the bathroom. So via without me for a long time, but actually going into it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was never one of those people that was like, Yes, I'm going to be a doctor or a teacher. And then I remember when I was looking at different degrees, I thought, Okay, this sounds pretty broad. Like, I feel like I could make this work in lots of different areas. And then as I did my best placement was with in child protection. And I love that, which sounds weird, because it doesn't sound like a sort of job you should love. You know, actually, I can relate to that, because I work on the other side of it in early childhood education. Yeah, I have actually great admiration for what you guys do on the other side, I could definitely not do it myself. So yeah. It's definitely a job that makes or breaks you for sure. Sometimes you're not really sure where it's going. But I did my placement there. Did another placement overseas. And I thought, yeah, this is a job that I want to do. So I was there for nearly six years before I went on that week. Actually resigned my position a couple of months ago, because the circumstances surrounding my birth left me with some more pressure issues that it's no surprise child protection does not help your blood pressure. Stay down. Yes, sort of gave that out recently, which feels still, it doesn't feel real. Like I still can't believe I'm not going back. But yeah, social work can take me anywhere. So I know that I have heaps of options and lots of experience now. So I'm excited to see where I am. Yeah, not good on yeah, like I said, I think what you guys do on that other side, oh, my god, like I, I quit, I was working in a law firm, just before I decided to completely change and go into child childcare and early childhood education because I was finding out things about things happening in my town that I didn't want to know about. Like, I'm, I'm a very sensitive person, and I find it hard not to take on other people's emotions and situations and experiences. So you know, I'd be sitting there typing, affidavits of people who are coming through the court system for, for doing horrible things to children and young people. And I thought I can't I can't keep doing this. And I said to my husband, I need to I need to help the children. Like in my mind, it was like help the children he's like, but you are helping the children and you're putting their perpetrators to court, you're contributing to that process. Like no, but I need to have my hands on the children like I just had this feeling I needed to be able to hold the children and you know, pick up stuff and reports and do that sort of stuff rather than, you know, the real hardcore stuff, which I'm just not cut out for at all. Because I mean, I honestly like I look at people that are in education, and I just think you have the patience of a saint. I'll protect the kids but after them skills, I think knowing where you fit is so important because you know, otherwise you're just forcing a job you hate and then if you think it's really cool perspective to early childhood, like most people just kind of love little kids and love working with them but I think bring a bit of an extra skill to it. Kind of having seen We're helping kids don't? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it really, it really makes your days so much more focused and more productive. Because a lot of people have an idea that childcare and I mean, it kindy at the moment is literally sitting on the floor playing with kids all day. Like, they think it's just some, like fancy way out of doing nothing. And so oh my gosh, like, no, like, people come in and do work experience or the they do their placement and they just go oh, it's not what I thought it was gonna be like, it is really demanding work and physically but also emotionally and mentally. You know, you're focusing on these little people and it's not just, I don't know, it's, it's such a broad scope of what you're looking at, for this child. Like this do the same job as you I'm just hearing the amount of just the admin side of it. Yeah, that's writing individualized notes for each child. And every day I'm gonna be like, favorite anything otherwise apathetic parent ever. Did you have lunch? Great, great. Good. Like I'm, I'm in awe of people that can keep up with that. Like, it's just not what I'm seeing, you know, she makes all her little activities and stuff you're taking and there's so much passion that goes into teaching kids question that I do not have. Very impressed. It's interesting how it all fits together, isn't it? How we will play a little cards and yeah, now good Anya, I really have a lot of admiration for you guys story. I first discovered you on Instagram, with your very awesome named account the pesky placenta society, which is brilliant. Can you tell me how you came up with that day? So it was it was not my first one. I was actually thinking today. I will come with the page like and I looked at some of the graphics I did in the beginning. Ugly. I had. Yeah, I had another name initially. And that was like part of one of my favorite quotes, which I still love. But you know, it wasn't mine. And I think as the space started to grow, and you know, people actually seem to care about what I was. I thought, No, I want to I want to move forward as something that's just me. And from the beginning of my pregnancy, I had the anterior placenta, which is at the front, so I would always call it pecky. Because it meant that I couldn't feel as much movement. I had so many trips to the hospital being like, oh, my gosh, and then the second thing had gone who'd be like, Connie told my Microcenter pesky from from day one. But then I ended up diagnosed with preeclampsia. So it became like, super speed as pesky as it can be. And I think that having a I was worrying people would think I was making light of it, that sometimes I do, like, that's just how I am. And I think it's quite the and it's weird. And that's, that's me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many people out there that not just for vanity reasons, there's so many issues you can have with your placenta. It's just a fun little way of honoring the journey. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's really cool. Because I think, I mean, there's so many people out there, everyone's got a different way of dealing with or processing issues and an account that might be really clinical and crisp and coming at it from a, you know, medical area, whatever, that might not see everybody, you know, like I I sort of have a joke when I talk about my placenta, that it's been pesky as well. It's sort of had a I don't know what the official name is. I've been trying to find it but it basically the blood flow was compromised from about 28 weeks. So then that meant that the baby didn't develop. And basically he stopped growing was dental insufficiency. Placental insufficiency. Yeah. So I sort of make a joke about that myself because my son when he was born, he was four pound 14. But he was completely formed, you know, he had his lungs were formed, everything was developed. He was all there. But he was just really tiny. He had no fat on him. He come out like looking like a skeleton rabbit. Like these tiny things, and you could see his diaphragm like when he was breathing like you could see every little muscle and everything inside him. So when people were still here quite little now. And they'll say, oh, yeah, he's a little little tack here. And I'll just say, oh, yeah, my plus Cena kind of stuff working. You know, I say it is a bit of a joke like. So yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from. I mean, it's good. I think it's good to share in that way do you want to share a little bit more about that experience for you finding out you had that anterior placenta and sort of how things progressed from that point? Yeah, so um, well, I looking back now I had high blood pressure from like the beginning of my pregnancy, because life was quite stressful, and I got pregnant and stayed. So for probably about half the pregnancy to similar things happening in life. So I was pretty frequently stuck in hospital for the blood pressure profiles, or they can be there for like three or four hours and check it. So I was used to that. And preeclampsia is something that like, it was mentioned when I booked in, because they run through the symptoms, just keep an eye out for these. But I didn't, they never really went through what it was what would happen like, anything like that. So I knew it existed, I knew it was serious, I knew I needed to look out for it. And I, on the anxious side of the spectrum. I was constantly worried. I mean, really, pregnancy just amplifies any mental health that you have what in my experience. So I was constantly, you know, panicking, that I was gonna get sick or something. And all that kind of thing. And then when I started to actually get symptoms, you know, I was going, Oh, my gosh, like, am I just making a big deal out of this? Because I'm anxious, or is this really a thing and, you know, every appointment, I've run all this stuff by the obese, and I wasn't seeing the same person consistently, because I was just booked into public hospital. And towards the end of the pregnancy, I stepped on weight really fast, which is another symptom because you start to swell, and you get the edema and all that. But the conversation sort of turned to like trying to make me go to an obesity clinic instead. And this is not the same, like, I know what's healthy and what's not. And I wasn't in like the peak of fitness. When I got pregnant, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that this was different, like it was just so quick. And I had all these other things. Like in all the great times the symptoms, there was only one or I didn't in the end. And so I just didn't feel like I was being taken seriously. And I went to a different hospital, which has been more focused on women's health. And they're the high risk hospital for a huge geographical area. And so I went in and I was diagnosed that day. And I was there for about a week. My blood pressure still is an extreme, like, every doctor I see. They're like, that's not possible. And then my son was born rather than 35 Lakes, I got very sick very quickly and died. And I actually went into the realm of fantasy, which is where you start to see ease. So that happened literally a few minutes after they came and checked me. So the timing was all just perfect. And yeah, so it was all very fast and scary. And and yeah, just crazy. And I think it took me a long time to reassess what had happened. But that sort of then led me to this world of perinatal trauma and the online space has been so helpful, remain silent, not anyone literally in my personal life who's had a similar story. Lots of people like to tell you, they know how you feel when they actually do it. Yeah. And it's always well mannered, but it's not the same. And so, yes, trauma, you own that, but it's not the same. And so I think finding people who could say actually, oh, my gosh, that happened to me. And there's so many intricacies in processing your trauma that I think a lot of people generalize. When you find someone who can be like, No, I had that exact thought like it's just really, it's comforting and it makes you feel like you're not crazy. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like I've been left with lifelong problems like I will be on blood pressure medication till I die. We which is more likely to be from like a heart attack now. And, you know, there's just so many things that preeclampsia makes you vulnerable to forever. So it's, it doesn't end with the birth. I think for some people it does, and that's great. But for me, you know, I'm in that sort of tiny categories, people who just another gonna have normal blood pressure. And that's still something I'm cranky on some days. But it's easily manageable. I think it's just another thing that I have to think about now. And you become a parent, like your brain is just going 100 miles an hour as it is, and then you've got to try and remember your own health, which it doesn't come first anymore. So that's what like, I have to have reminders on my phone, like to take a pill and I've never had to do that before, but it's just how my brain works now. Yeah. That's a real, like, brief summary of it. I mean, I have the whole story typed up for people to read on my website. But yeah, sure. Yeah. That's probably the quickest I can summarize what happened. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, this, the preeclampsia, I was the same like people would mentioned. And so yeah, watch out for this wherever. But it was almost like a passing comment. And it wasn't explained that if this did happen, then this this, this would happen. And we'd have to do this, this and this, like, it was just really general. And I think I knew one girl that had to get induced because she had it. But it was like, I didn't really ever understand what it was. And then when you're saying there about, you basically went from preeclampsia to actual preeclampsia. And then it's the thing that now you're dealing with for the rest of your life. I actually didn't know that. So yeah, I'm pleased that you sharing misinformation, because learning suddenly, your clients your side of things is not, I mean, it's not as common like pregnancy as a five to 8% of all pregnancies. So it's like not a lot, but also a lot of when we think of how many pregnancies there are a very small percentage of that. And I think, on paper, I don't think they would have diagnosed me with that, because it sort of started to happen as they were delivering him. So I think they managed to sort of stop it in time, but I did. So it was like my bottom haul, started seizing change. It was like I was trying to do setups like that I couldn't control it. But that's not like talks about the only thing I knew was there's like an episode of Downton Abbey where one of the characters dies from eclampsia. thing that we're talking about? So like it's really not like preeclampsia in and of itself isn't talked about. But then for the people who have that next step. It classier like it's even more quiet. So I try to be as honest as I can just because people need that, like, I need your help. I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I'm very open book. Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I often say that. It's like, the people that are capable of sharing. It's not like, it's not like yeesh you've obliged to do it, or you have to do it. But it's good. If you can do it for the people that can't share necessarily. So I love that you can do it. And yeah, thank you for doing just on that. Was that. Was that Sybil? Did she have preeclampsia? Yeah, yes. Yeah. So they, I watched the episode. After, I think my son was a few months old. I was watching through it again. And I was like, okay, like, I can do this. But oh my gosh, like the whole I just cried and cried the whole way through. Because I think I have these moments where, like, I just realized, oh, man, I'm gonna cry now. I just realized how close I was like, and that's such a scary thought and watching it, you know, in a big show with all these famous people, like it was just a bit surreal kind of going, Oh, my gosh, that was me. I mean, obviously, in the show, she passes away, and there's a lot of people that do and, and I was so close to that. And so I think the feeling of getting that close, and then coming back is like its whole own category of using being as open as I can about it. Because I know that no matter how stupid I think authority is or how dark it might be, like someone else out there has either had it or is having it right now. And I think that's you gotta have people who can go like, you know, with, you know, crazy, you know, what processing looks like is what trauma does to our brains. Yeah. Trauma is my bread and butter. Like that's what Yeah. And so I know it very intimately on an academic level. I'm personally but then I sort of have these two halves of my brain where, literally, we have two halves. It was sort of like a kid is the emotional side, it's freaking out. And you know, what's happening? I don't know who I am anymore. And then there's the logical brain, my brain like we studied this, we know this. We know what's gonna happen next. Hobbs that we're constantly surprising each other, indicating very well. So he was very strange going through that, like knowing trauma as much as I do. And that's when it's you. All bets are off. Like, it's just totally different when you're the subject of it. So, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot, a lot of sort of niche stuff, I guess that I can relate to the people. And in the context, like the preeclampsia world, and the perinatal Tron world online is so dominated by the US, which is not a bad thing. Like, they have a lot of people. But I think it's really nice when you can find someone that understands your culture, and your geographical context, and our health system is different. And like all that sort of thing. So I think it's been nice to be able to slot into that space. That was kind of empty. And obviously, there are a lot of survivors and stuff that have accounts, but I think that's more about just their, their life and that kind of thing. Whereas I wanted something that was more open to help people have a space to be like, Oh my gosh, this happened to me, and it sucked. So yeah, I always get very excited when I find other creators. Yeah, for sure. We are literally in comparison to the rest of the world. So I think it's nice that this space is growing in a way that is relatable and accessible to everyone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When did you decide that you wanted to share this with others and create this account and get it out there? When was that sort of, in your mind, I started so writing has always not always, but as an adult, I suppose it's been my outlet. And I've never really thought of myself as an autistic person, I think of myself as a creative person. And in my head, they're different things. So I, I was that 2023. So 10 years ago, I was very chronically disliked mystery illness. So I used writing to kind of express that to people because it's really hard to just like sit and talk environment about what's going on. And I found that to be really helpful just for me to get my thoughts out, but also to be able to give them to other people and be like, This is what I'm trying to say. And so from there, you know, I do a few little topical EcoLog stuff over the years about different social justice issues or, or things like that. And then you know, that kind of stopped his life got busier and, and then when my son was born, and I got really sick, I actually started writing it down just to try and remember what happened because neurologically impaired, but also, so called fentanyl, which is a really heavy duty, because they had to start my C section before the anesthetic studying. So he was like, I'm gonna pump you with as much as I can. So I was really out of it for several hours in and out of consciousness in the ICU. And so when I woke up like in the postnatal ward, I was like, I have no idea what just happened. And it's just in flushes coming back to me, I started to just jot those down, knowing that at some stage, I was going to need to write it out properly, and you know, make it sound nice. And then as I did that, like, I didn't have the intention of publicly sharing it. I think I was going to share it like with some close friends and family and just kind of Yeah, there was so much like, particularly the postpartum period as well, like there's so much that I could have verbalized that I could write about. And so I had planned to share it with some and then a few ladies in my life who are midwives and community nurses that I knew who were were very lovely and cared for me very well. After my son was born, and they were like this is get this would help people like if you share this, it would help someone. Yeah, and I just thought you know what, like, on the off chance that there is one person raised there goes and goes, oh my gosh, like, and has that moment that I had reading all the stories? You know, it's what, like, it's worth the vulnerability is that what you say? And experience could help another person start to heal. And I thought, Okay, I'll just do it. And it was lovely. Like literally the day that I started the account, I got a message from someone on the Central Coast in New South Wales. Oh my gosh, like you're the first person in Australia that I've come across who has had a story that's a bit like mine. And I was just so like, it was just the nicest thing to hear obviously, not that they went through that. I know. What I wanted happens, like so fast. And and that's been, it's really been twofold. Like, it's helped me get a lot of stuff out that I needed to, but it's also helped a lot of people start to do that for themselves. And that's just, yeah, it's been really helpful. For me, I think having something to occupy my mind when you're stuck with, you know, a feed or a nap or whatever it is, like having something I can focus on, and still have that best that's beyond just being a mom like that. That's so important to me in a way that I didn't see coming. Like I expected to just be so in love with motherhood, and then it happened. And I was like, this is not what's in the movies. Yeah. So I think having this has been really like, salvation. For me, I think for my mental health, but just having something to do, like, you know, you just feel so the immobile sometimes as a stay at home parent. Having having an outlet to still create and share and stuff has been essential for me. Yeah, and it's led me to some really lovely people. So that's always a bonus as well. Yeah. And on that. I noticed on your, your web, your web page that you share stories from other mums? Yeah. And did that start to happen fairly quickly? Or is that something that you sort of happened as you went along? Meeting people and stuff. I think that wasn't like, an intention that I have, in the beginning, it sort of organically happened, I think. And not just about like people with preeclampsia. Like, there's so many things that I'm passionate about, like, as a social worker, you care about a lot of things. You know, there's not really a topic that I'm not happy to share. But I just started with, like my sister's story, you know, she had pregnancy loss, and then had my nephew on Christmas Eve, and had a really difficult postpartum period. And so he wrote that up. And, you know, the more I sort of started sharing, the more I thought, there's so many things that are just like, what I went through that someone else is sitting there going like, Okay, I didn't have preeclampsia, but I had a miscarriage, it stopped. So I think I like to keep it fairly open. And I know like, all the advice you get with like social media is assigned a nation stick to it. And it was like, there's too many things. Like, I looked at some other accounts that have these beautiful, like, stains with the colors. And you know, that one's spotty. And that one's got flowers. And I just thought pink, so I thought I might as well be like that with my website. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's really cool. Like the amount of people who hoo do contact me and go, like, I want to, I don't know where to start, like, so at first, it was just sharing stuff that people had already written out. But now it's kind of at a, you know, guiding people through that. And that's been a real privilege to, you know, sit with someone, well sit with someone online, and kind of help them say what they want to say in a way that fits who they are, and their experience, and just the excitement and the emotion that they have in their story going out there. And, like, it's just so special when someone comes to me and says, like, I've never shared this before, but I really want to, and that's just beautiful. Like, it's a connection that, you know, I've never had in any other way. Yeah, so it's been great. And there's just so many people in my own life that I think like your stories and people need to hear it. Yeah. So I do not have nagged a few people. But it's great for them. Like I love seeing other people have that moment of like, okay, people hear my story, and I take it seriously. And, you know, my story has value. And yes, yes, storytelling is like the ancient form of communication. And I think we lost that a little bit over time. And so I think, sort of stepping back into that has been more emotional than I expected. And just an honor, like I always just feel so privileged when somebody trusts me with that, like, it's a really big responsibility. So I do take it very seriously. Yeah, that's lovely. I think people can sometimes think that what they've got to say isn't a value because they don't hold a status in society, or because they don't have 100,000 followers or, you know, because whatever reason people can sort of, what's that? That? Yeah, they can, they can really diminish the value of the, of what they've got to say, and it's even people that I've had on this on this podcast over the years, they are I'm not creative, I'm not good enough. I'm not whatever it's like, I can see that you are, you know, I'm not telling you, you know, I'm not going to force people, you know, you have to be on the show. And just give people a bit of time to think about it, like to support them. And then people will come back to me and go, actually, yes, I would like to come on, you know, and that's like, yes. Like, I feel like, I want you to see yourself as we see, you know, like, you have so much to add and even someone the other day, just as are wrapping up the episode that like, I hope that was okay, I feel like I, what I've got to say isn't isn't good enough, or isn't big enough. It's like, seriously, like, I like you sit with someone for an hour or an hour and a half. And you just take, like what they've got to say so valuable. Like I just I want people to feel like empowered that they have a space and they have, they have people that will find value in what they have to say, you know, absolutely, people. We are our own worst critics as women. We're taught to believe that we need to be bigger and better than we are. And so I do it myself all the time. Like, I second guessed everything I look at even stuff like my life story, like Medically speaking, I should be dead. Like I survived something that even my specialists couldn't make sense. So, like I know that to be and still understand. Oh, it's not interesting. You know, we played Dan Brown it was actually your, like, you know, your list of things that you talked about on the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. So when I read through that, and there's the whole section on McGill, and I was just like, I mean, I've been reflecting on that so much, because I think I had this realization of like, obviously, I can relate to mom guilt, but it's just this extension of like, woman guilt that I've had my whole life. And, you know, a Carlin's like yeah, I've been a bit obsessed with that idea, since I read that a few weeks ago, and I just thought, oh my gosh, like, so much mental energy goes into being a woman that, then is exacerbated as a mother because there's all these expectations on you. And no, we really have this like, No, I'm not enough of the stuff that I should be in a hole, but I'm too much of stuff. And we have this contradiction that we just sit in all the time. And yeah, like, just my own experience happened. And I still doubt it. Like, I went through, like, medical evidence that it happened, and I still kind of feel maybe I'm just making a big deal. But like, I shouldn't even deal with it. Because that's what it is. And that's the same of any story. Like anything that's happened to you is important and relatable, and I'm trying so hard not to or to challenge I guess that that little voice that I have of like, got to make sure everything's perfect. Why? Yeah, yeah, Little did you know that your email like unleashed this whole war. I'm so pleased. And my work here is done. Exactly. Then I read the rest of your list as I got to my mind. It really did make me think about like, how I where I placed my value as a mom and just as a person. And how much subtle stuff there is out there telling us what we need to be like I'm well and truly good enough for my son and I know that but I still you know, I don't know how many times a day I convinced myself that's not true. Particularly because like my postpartum, I did not like my baby for a solid two months of his life. And that still makes me feel horrible to say out loud. But it's true like I was so like wrecked from everything that happened and separated from him, you know, I didn't get to meet him for 24 hours. But even then my brain just doesn't when other people have to wait more than that, like some people have to wait a week. You trying to justify Yeah, I still didn't meet my babies for 24 hours. And so I think that really affected the way that I make sense of it is that it affected my ability to bond to him, because even though I didn't meet him, like I met him the next day or the next night, and then I was still in the ICU a day or so. And then I was on a different word to him because he was in special care. And like I say, session was so fast that I could barely walk like it was yeah, you know, I find out how long other sections went for. And I think Oh, my God, mine was not that long, like, so it was very rough. And like, physically, I was quite damaged. I mean, nothing was wrong, but it was just super and yeah, so it was, it was a full week, like until we went home. And then, you know, I had this tiny human, and I just look at him and be like, I don't want to feel these things for you. And I don't. And so that was like a whole journey. And I think that really affected how I could view myself as a mom, because in my head, I was like, what sort of doesn't like me, like, what sort of mom doesn't want to spend time with her baby, you know, because we get told this beautiful view of motherhood, which it can be like, I have those feelings now of just joy. And you know, I look at him and I want to eat him. And but when you don't have that, from day one, I think the world sort of wants you to believe that there's something wrong with you. And there was something wrong with me that was completely out of my control. And I needed a lot of help. But that didn't make me a bad mom, you know, I met his needs, and that sort of thing. So I think going into motherhood that way, it really, really made that voice very loud. That told me that I wasn't enough of this. I was too much of that my son doesn't. Like all that kind of thing was so loud for the first little while of his life. And thankfully, you know, therapy and medication has made that voice much more quiet. But it's still there. And I think that's what sucks thing a woman like that voice is always in the back of your head kind of telling you that it's your fault, or you need to do this and you need to Yeah, you haven't done good enough or you haven't done the right thing. Yeah. I think women have the role. We are given the role of making sure everything's great. We get no credit for that. And then if something goes wrong, we get blamed for that. Yes, it's like an impossible task. Isn't it? Like, you're set up to fail right from the start? Yes. Yeah. I even tried to do an experiment last week. I was like, You know what, because I can't be the only one that's done this. I bumped into like a chair, my ankle, like get the chair like and I apologize. Yeah. What? I just apologize for pieces. Like that's how brainwashed I've been to believe that. Everything is my fault just for existing. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna do an experiment in the next 24 hours. I'm going to count how many times I apologize. Not so like stuff because I've actually done wrong, but just as apologies that we make, like, as an instinct. I couldn't keep up not because there was heaps, I just, it's so natural in my brain to be like, I'm so sorry I exist, that I couldn't count them. And I thought that's so sad. Like, it's so sad. My husband doesn't have that problem ever. Like, I've never seen him apologize to a chair. I've seen any man apologize to a chair. So I think like there's so much work for me to do, but it's exhausting that I have to do. And then like trying to do all of this at the same time as being a mom like, oh, yeah, we have a lot on our shoulders and no one you can't see it. It's there. And yeah, I just think the more honest we can be about motherhood the good guy, but I don't think we just need to focus So on the yucky parts, but everyone has yucky parts. And if we pretend that we don't we just, we do such a disservice to each other as women, and as moms by convincing ourselves that we need to be perfect. And, you know, so I am so grateful to have found, I think, a community of people who are all trying to be really honest about the crap, because we're all gonna have it, you know, we'll all have the great times too. But I think we need each other, to be really honest about how hard it can be to transition into parenthood, and then to stay there like, yeah, yeah. And then all those stages that come through, you know, like, it's brought up, and then they change. And it's like, yeah, you're just constantly learning from scratch. And so I think, yeah, I think stay at home parents are like the backbone of society. Podcast, honestly, that that is another group of people I have so much respect for, because I couldn't do it, I literally couldn't do it, I think I have a certain amount of minutes in my day that I can be completely focused on my children. And then I've got to go do something else. Because it's like, my brain just doesn't have the capacity for that. I need that outlet, I need something for me. But I feel like the patriarchy and that system that's been set up, it encourages us to compete against each other, you know, it's pits us against each other, she's doing this, or I can do this, blah, blah, and what you're saying, I totally 100% agree with, like, sharing what's real, sharing the challenges and saying, It's okay, we all have crap times, you know, like, I'm, I'm getting so good. Now, it just, you know, laughing about the fact that my kids can't find their shoes in the morning. Like, it's just, you know, it's we never, ever really sprays morning, and that's what life is. And then also, you know, being kind to myself and going, you're not going to You can't expect this, like TV or Hollywood version of life. You know, I found that really tricky. with mine, having both my boys by never had a spontaneous, like going into labor. So I never got that moment of oh, my waters broken down the street or, you know, like, the on the on the telly. And never, I never had a normal, normal. I'll put that in air quotes, because that's such thing as normal, but a straightforward birth without complications. I've had one that was born in an hour and a half, and one that was born by emergency C section. And you have these images in your mind of what's going to happen when the baby's born, they put it on you, and this happens, and you go home and everything's, it's like, it's bullshit. It's just setting you up for trouble and failure in your mind. Because that's not life. It's not real. So the more we can tell each other, that what is happening to us is normal, and his life and things are gonna go wrong. And things aren't always gonna go the way we expect. And the better, we'll all be, I think, absolutely. You have your dream book. And this is something that actually my therapist, that's me, I think, you know, first session, I was very lucky that I was able to get into see a perinatal trauma therapist who actually knows what she's talking about. And she said, You know, I see a lot of women like me that have bursts that are just horrendous, but I also see a lot of women who have the birth that they wanted, and still were left feeling traumatized by something. And so like, you know, I believe that women can birth and they can do it safely, and they can do it freely. But I also believe there are a lot of us that even if all goes to plan, we're still gonna walk away traumatized, and that's okay. And yeah, I just thought, oh my gosh, you think about like, like, just the baby blues, the hormones and my when my sister was about to have the baby, I said to her, I was like, isn't gonna make sense now. But it will was like those first two weeks, you're going to feel like the world is ending and that it never going to change. But it will like it just will when you hit that sort of two week mark, and you're home and settle down, like, the fog will pass and be able to see everything again. So remember that first time, she was like, What am I done? I don't know what I'm doing, like, everything's wrong, and it's never gonna get better. I was like, I told you this was gonna happen. I was like, it's predictable. And sure enough, within a fortnight, she's like, Oh, this isn't so that. Things like that, where we try and we make this sort of beautiful newborn bottle that. I mean, some people have gone yeah, but a lot of us don't like I feel like more people struggle than not. And, you know, we shouldn't be honest about that. Because otherwise we make parents who just feel like they're broken from day one. Yeah, yeah, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, it sucks because it's like there's something inherent about you that's wrong. And that's had like fighting that and challenging that is It's a lot of mental work and needs to go daily to keep alive. Like, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all encompassing. Yes, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. When you said before about not having that sort of the connection with your son a little bit of time, I wanted to say something about that, but I'm not sure how to word it. And I don't want to keep talking about myself, because this isn't my show. But what it is, but you know what I mean, it's not my special episode. So I'm conscious of that. So I might, but I'm sort of trying to lead into it with it. I had an experience where I was because of this the second child emergency C section, I was so and I might be a little bit selfish, but I was thinking, I have to heal, right, my body has been cut open, how many other layers you go through, it's the most invasive surgery you can have. You know, and then I'm not allowed to lift things. I'm not allowed to drive. So I can't you know, I'm physically bound to my home. I couldn't really walk that well. Like, I was still recovering from that. And I thought, No, I'm expected to take care of this baby. And I thought this is bullshit. You know, how is this right? And I was quite, I guess, resentful. Probably the right word. So I found it difficult to sort of be all in, in this happy bubble land of baby because it was like, hang on a second. What about me? Yeah, you know, and then I thought, I can't say that, because it's all about the baby. You know what I mean? Did you? Yeah, I think because my therapist asked me outright, she was like, Do you blame your son for what happened? Like, do you because I was talking about this, like, I don't feel anything like, I know that I'm supposed to be all mushy and love him more than anything. And I don't feel it. And she was like to blame him for getting sick and nearly dying. And I could honestly say, No, what I did blame him for was taking all of that time. And I couldn't focus on healing myself, like that. I felt like every time, you know, I'd need to do something. And not just like, medical appointments, because I don't want to have appointments. So appointment to do for the first two weeks of his life. So obviously, I had to go to those. But every time I wanted to pay, he'd start crying. And I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even go to the toilet without failing you as a parent. And so I did, I have a lot of resent, I think towards him. Not, I don't know, because that sounds like a strong word. But that's what it was. You know, I just I looked at him. And I'd be like, because of you I can't be okay. That's just that was my reality at the time. And thankfully, you know, I have a husband who loves being a dad, and, you know, spent the first week being really the sole parent. And he took that on and has just run with it, you know, from day one, and not everybody has that. So I'm very blessed in that way. I had a mom who was at my house every day, you know, to do all the chores, like, you know, I have my little village that and I still was like that I need to be me again. That was like, I think after you have any kind of traumatic birth, figuring out who you are, is hard. Because you can't go back to what you were not who you want to be yet. You're just this like in between person that you don't recognize. And then you have this little squealing child that you know needs. They're relentless, relentless, and they should be exposed today. But when you're in that space of trying to just like survive, it's sort of the last thing that you need. And so I did, I felt really like a lot of that struggle to attach to him was because he was the barrier at the same time and overcoming that is difficult. And I had lots of support, and I still struggled. So there are a lot of people out there and it may be gave me so much respect for the families that I've worked with in the past. I was like, you know, the fact that like, your kid is five and like, I'm only hearing you that now it's like this is not so stressed that I was under with every possible support I could want. Yeah, it really made me realize who was in my corner. So that was a good thing, but I definitely you know, I'd look at this perfect little face and I'd be like yeah, and that just felt like I felt like a monster. I felt like some awful like, troll that had crawled out from under the bridge and like hated the baby. But like that Here's how I felt, I felt like I was on my own. I felt like, I'd made this huge mistake and brought this child into the world that I didn't want. And that, you know, I really felt like I never would like I'd look at, you know, moms loving their kids. And I'd be like, how do you do? Like, I don't have that, and I want that. And I did get there. But, you know, two months is a long time really, when you think about how much I had to do to get to that point. So it's just yeah, I think it feels like it goes against our nature as women to say out loud, like, I do not like my baby. And that is that we have to stay in, because people feel that way. Like, and that's what I mean, like, you can care for a child and meet all their needs and still not have that joy. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. One day might not be swimming, but it happens slowly. And thankfully, I got there in time. I needed to have that space to heal. Like, I don't think I think I'd still be struggling if I didn't have the ability to prioritize like it was a bit of a weird silver lining of a traumatic birth was that I could leave him with people. And know he was okay. You know, I know so many moms that who have that beautiful oxytocin rush at birth, who they'd be thinking about their baby nonstop and your brains. Our brains are supposed to be wired that way. Right? And so and I just be like, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a good point, actually. Now you say it, I feel felt the same way. But I hadn't really put my finger on it. Cuz he, he, as soon as you know, he was born, he was whisked off to the little box thing they put him in to keep them warm. And he was also given formula. And that was like a weight off of my shoulders. Because not all on me anymore. I am like, the biggest formula fan. In the world, I literally had no choice because my milk never came in. But I was so desperate diversity, and again, fell to the mother because I couldn't. But formula meant that I could recover. But I could leave who was my husband and I could have four nights of sleep. Like, it just gave us something that I don't think we could have had. I addressed it. And honestly, if I have another one, I don't think I even want to try breastfeeding because I was traumatized by the process of it not working. But I actually reflecting not that long ago, and I this is one of those things, I'd totally forgotten that. That sort of really emphasized my, where I was sitting in terms of like, not having a lot of emotion for my baby. I took him for a six week noodles. And my sister was with me and you know, the nurse was like, giving me all this prep on like, you're gonna be really distressed because he's gonna cry and it's gonna upset you. And I said, No, I'll be fine. She was like, No, really, like, everyone says that and then they burst into tears. So just be ready. And in my head, I was like, I don't care. Like, I don't care if he cried. And then he did. He started crying. And she looked at me and she was like, patting my arm. She's like, he's okay. And I literally looked her in the eye and I won't be sad, worse. And she just raised her eyebrows and I can see what's happening. My sister's sitting there with tears pouring down and she's like, just sitting there so indifferent. I completely forgot that happened. And my sister the other day, she was like, Yeah, you would not okay. Yeah, yeah. That's how I felt like I listened to him cry, and I felt nothing. And like, I was just what happened? I can't change it. And, you know, it didn't mean that I didn't care about him or like, I think I was. I did a lot of distancing, I think because I was just expecting to die like at any moment, I was not real panic of you know, it's not over yet. Because preeclampsia you can develop up to six weeks after you have a baby. So yeah, so you can have postpartum preeclampsia or help syndrome or pregnancy, which are like the sort of more severe versions. And so I knew that I was still in that time frame like I so I think I spent a long time trying not to get to know him because I thought if something happens to me like it's going to be harder for you. You to them not have a mom, like, you know, here's this big you didn't know what was happening. But that's how I was rationalizing. And so it was hard like trying to survive and care for a baby and still be yourself and find things that make you happy. And you just get bombarded with all of these things. I just need to rest, restaurants appearances is difficult. But I'm glad that I prioritized it because I think it gave me strength to then try and make the other things more positive or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, again, back to like, being a woman, resting is nowhere else. So even though I just been sliced open to my very core and back together really quickly, and you know, all that stuff. I was still like, no, like, I don't deserve rest. But, you know, that's just what I needed. So I think my body eventually just gave out and would just go to sleep, like at a moment's notice. You know, yes, my son had to wait, sometimes it meant that I could do it. And now, you know, I lost him. And I have all of those feelings that I wanted. And you know, that stuff came in time. It's hard, when the only stories that you're seeing and hearing are people that, you know, have that moment where they're on their chest, and they kiss the partner, and they have this beautiful golden hour. And, you know, and that's all you see, it's very hard to see your own experience as worth anything or real or, like, you just kind of look with envy, or these videos. Like, I still feel weird. I still feel weird seeing videos of, you know, moms that have their babies immediately placed on them, or like, I just instantly still feel jealous. You know, obviously, I would not wish my experience on anyone. But I, you know, I wanted that for me. And I didn't get it. And that was its own grief, like processing the loss of experience that I felt good about was a huge part of coming to terms. Yeah, yeah. What happens when your baby? Let's see, isn't it? And the thing that annoys me is like, people say, Arpit, women have been having babies for 1000s of years, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, but hang on a sec. So many things would have gone wrong over those 1000s of years. And I wanted to ask, and I don't know if this might be an insensitive question. So you can tell me to bugger off if you want to. But did you ever say that you sort of had any sort of feelings about when you talked before about being so close to death and surviving? Did you ever think like, imagine if I was, you know, in a third world country, or imagine if I was stuck at home, or you know how things would have gone 100% Particularly because preeclampsia I mean, the fatality statistics, the vast majority, like are in developing countries, because they don't have prenatal care and all that sort of thing. But even like, if I had done what my OB told me to do, I will be dead. If I had just gone home and relaxed and you know, not thought about it, and like, there's no way like I would have had a seizure at home, my blood pressure went insane. And then I would have died at home. Like it absolutely would have happened. So yes, that was on my mind, a lot like the timing of it was, was just, I see it as a miracle as someone who has faith, but like I said, when you have preeclampsia in hospital, they check your blood pressure, at least hourly. So it's very frequent. And mine was very unpredictable. So the medication wasn't really working. And so they were checking me super frequently. In the space of half an hour I went from like not concerning to our version of the code blue, which is called a map call. And that's where everyone runs in and they do all your tests. And, you know, within 15 minutes of that I started seizing 20 minutes later, my son was born and I was off to the ICU. So like the speed at which all of that happened. And like the fact that I was in hospital like I'm so proud of myself while listening to my gut instinct being like, Hey, I know you see the paranoid with your health, but let's go get checked in anyway. I yeah, I just thought and I still think so often of women who don't survive because they don't have access to what they need. To whether that's a medical professional or medication or whatever, like I think I was in the absolute best place I could have been when that happened. And even then it was a close call. So I marveled at the timing of everything and I just, my heart breaks every time I read a story about a mum, either a mum who dies or a baby like this preeclampsia can very quickly lead to placental abruption, which is very difficult for a little one to survive. And just a number of stories that I've read that sounds similar to mine, but they end with somebody passing away is heartbreaking. And, you know, regardless of what country you're in, but particularly for vulnerable women, you know, whether that's your racial background, or geographically where you live, like, there's just so much that factors into what kind of care you get. And like, I can't fault the kid that I had, like it was absolutely spot on and save my life. But yeah, the amount of people that don't have that is just so upsetting. And preeclampsia is just such a weird, like, no one knows why it happens. Like, it's still this big mystery that affects so many people, and particularly, you know, in developing countries, or even in some rural areas where you're really far away from your health care, I just think, oh my gosh, like if I even I was thinking about, like, I brought my mat lay forward because of my blood pressure. And I was like, I could have still been at work. Like, I could have still been, obviously, it was a Saturday. So, you know, wouldn't have been at work. But like that could have happened on a weekday, like the first day that I got really, really sick, was a Wednesday at lunchtime. And so I just couldn't stop thinking about like, the what ifs? What if person? Yeah, most anxiety people are, but I think I have to dwell on them a little bit. Like I have to give them some space to play out. Otherwise, they just played my mind. So you work through them? Yeah. There's so many aspects of my son's birth that I was like, Oh, my gosh, what is that? What is that? And thankfully, none of them came to pass. But yeah, it's very surreal, I think to look at what could have happened very easily what could have happened? And I'm reminded of that, because every time they see a doctor, they want to know, like, what happened to my blood pressure? And they looked at me like, I don't think you're right. Like, I don't think that's possible. And yet, yes, yes, it's possible because here I stand. So like, I get this reminder at every appointment, I thought there's no way you could have survived that. I think, I know, that's not like, as a yay, but it doesn't make me feel better. I hope to that in my lifetime, we see an answer to how to prevent it. Like, because that's what's scary about everything. Nervous gutters, and you can still get it. How do you? How do you? How do you fight that? I'm very passionate about and research and all that kind of thing now, on a witness just because, you know, I had everything I needed to know what it was. And it still took me by surprise. So the amount of people that you know, if they have a dodgy healthcare provider, or you know, there's so many things that could lead to you not not taking any notice, or just pregnancy being uncomfortable. Like there's so many symptoms of preeclampsia that you could just go oh, well, you know, I'm pregnant. So yeah, what I'm supposed to feel like shit. And like, sometimes. But I think like, yeah, it's just it's so important for women to trust themselves. Yes, yeah. We know that we know when we got feel good. And I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world, or at least in the developed world, will have a experience of trying to share something with particularly a male provider and being told like, no, that's not possible or like to go for a walk in assumption, or something like that when we're talking about a life threatening illness. That people can I walk away feeling dismissed. And then like within a week, I nearly died. That's a big deal. And the reason I didn't was because I went, you know what stuff you I'm gonna go and get it anyway. And 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had that, like, I wouldn't have had the confidence to trust myself. So, because we are taught to believe that what we think is less than why because of it, because we tell ourselves that we're just making a big deal out of nothing, but yet someone else knows better. So we couldn't possibly be right. To be like our own hype girl, like I'm getting, that's my goal is to try and be like, yes. I don't care if you can get stupid. Yeah, look this off. There was a post. I don't know how long ago I saw it on Instagram. It was basically people sharing their stories of times when, and this was in, in labor, particularly when they weren't listened to. And the amount of stories it was just appalling. And some of the outcomes were quite serious. And I mean, I didn't have it, I had a little a little moment like that, where by my like I said before, my son was born an hour and a half. And the he was my first delivery. And the doctor sort of joked I'll see you in 10 to 14 hours, you know, he went off to do a cesarean or something. And I literally felt within about half an hour that I felt like, I needed to push like, I felt like this, like I needed to do a poll. Basically, I described it as though there was a bowling ball coming out of my bottom. That's how it felt. And I said to the nurse, I feel like I've got a push. And she just looked at me with a shock on her face. And she she just she freaked out. And she went and got him. And he come in and he just went surely not like this. And I just thought you fucker. Anyway, he did an internal and he could feel the baby's head. I was like, Why don't you listen to us? We know what's going on in our bodies, like, Damn, you all makes us so cross. Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary for a doctor to believe that you're not feeling good. Like, literally your job. Guess to deal with sick people. So if I'm sitting here, whether that's I'm ready to push, or whether that's like, Hey, Doc, I've had a headache and dizziness for like two years, and I don't know what's wrong. Like, it's actually your job to listen to me and to believe me. And you know what my husband's never walked away from an appointment being made to feel like he doesn't know what's wrong. He just, he's always, I love him dearly. He's always like, just shocked when he hears these stories of like, this actually happened. Like I had an appointment once I went in, because I have it's a form of tinnitus, that like you can hear your heartbeat really loudly and it was getting me up at night, like I couldn't sleep. So it was really bad. And you know, because I don't trust doctors. Sometimes I Googled it. And I was like, Okay, this could be a brain tumor. So I should probably go check. I went into this doctor, I explained it. And he told me that I probably just need to drink more water. Oh, and then looked at my file and saw that I have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And so she talked to me about that. And I said, I know like, I'm not managing that, like with my other doctor. I'm just here because I want to check that this isn't serious. And he proceeded to lecture me on my fertility for about 15 minutes, we really should start thinking about like trying to have a baby soon at this point. I was not with my husband, I was not in a place where I wanted to have a baby, or anything like that. And I was like, I just hear about my ear. Like, I'm here to talk to you about a noise in my ear. And you're trying to talk to me about my ovaries like this actually isn't any of your business, right? You're overstepping your boundaries. So much like energy has to challenge that in the moment. Like I think, again, experience I hear so often, including my own as women, as you sit in this appointment, just completely astounded at what you're hearing that the first time you try and challenge it, they shut it down. And it's like, you know what, whatever, like, do you speech? I'll go home. I'll Google it some more figured out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we shouldn't have to resort to Google, we should be able to go to any doctor and say, Hey, these are my symptoms returned. What could it be? Yeah. And I think I look I've had these experiences with female healthcare providers to I think it's not just men but I immediately have like, my like antennas go up if I have to see a male doctor because I just my first ever experience that I was talking about at the start of this 10 years ago, I got Lyme disease when I was in America. Yeah, we don't have that here quote, unquote. So there's no testing for it. There's no anything so I was sick with this for nearly two years. But at the start of it, you know, I had all these symptoms. I went to a GP that I Just could get into. So I was 18 at the time, or sorry, just 19. So a baby, a baby with no backbone. And so I sat down and you know, they asked you if there's a possibility can be pregnant, which is fine, because they have to. And I said, No. And he came back to it. And he was happy. You sure? And I said, Yo, I've never been sexually active. So I'm pretty confident. And he literally he raised his eyebrows and said to me, I find that hard to believe. Ah, what do you say to that? Like, I dare anyone to say that to me now, like, with the amount of no crap given that I have now, you know, I hate him. But back then, like our baby, 19 year old with no self esteem. I just, I was like, What the heck. And that was my first experience of like, that feeling of going, okay, so you just think I'm crazy. Like you respect me at all. So I think like, it's it happens. It's real. And then, you know, fast forward to when I was pregnant. And I was being told that I needed to go to an obesity clinic at 33 weeks pregnant. And I was told, like, she told me I needed to lose weight. Like, these babies got another like kilo or two to go, like, in what way? Can I lose weight? She's like, What very least you can't gain any weight. I was like, Okay, again, my baby still got to like, chop out. Like, she was crazy. And what I mean, she was crazy. But it was just, it was mental. I was like, crying. So I was like, This is not like, you know, I had self esteem issues my way in anyway. I was like, Why? Why are we talking about this? You know, and then the next appointment, I was told all of these symptoms, just don't worry about it, you just need to relax more like enjoy your maternity leave. Can you just look at my flashing. That happened a week, I was gonna ask that actually, if any of these people you've come across again and be like, actually, I almost died. So get started, I haven't because I went, I switched hospitals. So I had like shared care with the high risk hospital. And that's where I ended up going because they had just completely redone. Like their birthing suites and everything and they have, it's really good. It's basically an emergency department, but for pregnant people. So I went there, because I was like, uh, you guys know, that I am trying to. And when I say trying to I mean, it's on my list and never at the top of my list, because maybe the Social Work team at the hospital, I burst that, like, open for feedback. So caliber long after your birth. And so I plan to have a meeting with them and just kind of go through. Because it's all in the same local health district. I can kind of point out like, Hey, can we have a look at like, who I saw at this thing, because they need to know that when I sat there, and I told them, that I had a headache, and that my vision was blurry. My right shoulder was hurting. And, you know, I was swelling up so much that like, I could push my finger in and it would just leave a dent like it was disgusting. And like all of that I was just told to relax and not to worry about it. And when you look at a list of symptoms of preeclampsia are all there like? So it's a matter of actual education? Like, I mean, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wanted to just be like, like, I nearly died, that. I also want them to do that. Like I wants to know that the next person they see that runs through everything that's happening. They don't just dismiss it and go, Oh, well, you know, you're pregnant, you're likely to be uncomfortable, you know? Yes, you're likely to be uncomfortable, but not to this extent. That's it. Yeah. So I do like, I'm quite passionate about health care providers, not just knowing more, because they know the symptoms. They know them, but seeing it and hearing it and actually taking it seriously. Yeah. Because you don't want to be the doctor that told someone they were fine. And not to worry about it. And then they die. And that's on you. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like your job is there to catch this stuff. And to help prevent it and manage it. And if you can't do that, then maybe find another job. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I really saw and just the way that they were treated like I had one midwife, she was lovely. She had probably in the late 40s. And she was the first one to catch my blood pressure during the weird thing where it like split and went into opposite directions. And so she went and grabbed like one of the old days and here's a young, a young guy. He was so dismissive to her work when she was telling him what had happened. And he was like, No, that's not possible. And then he checked my blood pressure and I did the same thing. And then he went on like announced it to everyone because it was So interesting. Like, like, he'd found it. Cool. And I just like, looked at her and I was like, what just happened? And she just sort of rolled her eyes and she's like, Oh, young doctors, like they're all the same. And I was like, I know that like, still, you know, I'm watching this guy who looked younger than me, right? A woman with 20 plus years new recruit experience, or, you know, a new thing that he hadn't seen. And I was like, no, like, like, the midwives are the ones that I was crying on, and that were helping me like, try and walk after three days in an ICU. They were the ones helping, because my C section was so fast that by the time I got back to postnatal, they, they didn't even have time to wake me up, like I was still covered, like, in my blood is disgusting. And so like, you know, I was grossed out by that. But obviously, midwives they've seen everything so gentle and calm and and like, the doctors would come in for 30 seconds every day and be like, yeah, right, by, you know, but the midwives, they were the ones that like I hadn't read, like, who the one who respected them that call. She came and visited me three days after, like, interface, Natal, or just check in and I was like, That's so nice. Like, I know that I could go and find the doctor and he wouldn't have a clue who I was he wouldn't days ago. So I think there's yeah, there's at every level, women are really disadvantaged and made to believe that we don't know what we're talking about. We actually make the world go round. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, she could not have said it better. I feel like sometimes, like if we just went on strike, what would happen to the world? You know, if we just went up not doing it anymore, you guys sorted out countries have successfully passed some pretty significant legislation because women go on a sex strike. story seriously, it's like radicals will ever read. And it's in countries that would surprise you to like, this is not happening in the developed world. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm getting that sounds awesome. Power. Yes. When men don't get what they want, it's a bit how much you have. But it's not taken seriously when we're actually trying to like use it. You know, beneficial things. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's thing you can sometimes you can feel like so amazing and wonderful. Like we birth we bring the next generation to the world we raise them and then somebody's like, just take the piss out of you at the petrol station because you don't know how to put the hubcap on or you know, it's just something like that, like, and then you're like, This is where I've made in the world. If I say something, and then a man copies exactly what I say and then everyone is good idea. And I used to just be silent and now I literally go Oh, I wish someone else had said the first like I always have to point it out now because I just get so nabbed. Yes. You can't let it go. Like Yeah. Yeah. A lot of like, a lot of guys that I know and love, don't even realize they do it. Like that's how subtle it is. Yep. And I was, how's this for a proud wife a moment. So my husband, we were having dinner because I caught myself Nan's gleaning today halfway through the sentence, and I immediately apologize. A little feminist izany put on him. You have no idea how much has changed. It's been so good. Like, it's been really a loved one. And I'm happy to learn about privilege. Like I think it's, it's only a good thing. And there's actually if you've not read it, I feel like you'd like it. There's a book called, say what you made me do by Jeff Hill, and it's about domestic abuse. But her chapter on patriarchy is just phenomenal. Like, if you could isolate that chapter on its own, it is the best break down and she's an Aussie. So it's using all these statistics, which I really like. But I think just writing in such a way that like my husband, and was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. This is how much the patriarchy hurts me. And yeah, like that sort of thing. So it's definitely it's a resource that I recommend to everyone when I talk about this, which is Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really good. I think it's really powerful is if a guy can read something about patriarchy and not feel offended by it. It's written well, yeah, like he's not being attacked and it's kind of feel like his place is being threatened. I guess. Thank you so much for spending so much time with me today. I've loved chatting with you and going over some some big topics and breaking some stuff down was my favorite thing to do. I love it. Thank you for bearing with me. And thank you so much for sharing. So honestly, I really appreciate it and I know that the listeners will appreciate hearing from you. So thanks again. It's been wonderful. My pleasure and all the best and yeah, keep I'll keep my eye out on your Instagram and laugh along with you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Beth Stephen Australian singer + songwriter S2 Ep74 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am very excited to welcome to the podcast today Beth Stephen, a singer, songwriter and mother of 2 from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the Teeny Tiny Stevies. Beth grew up in a very musical family, her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to a gig and listening to her parents band rehearse. In her teenage years Beth and her sister Byll decided to start their own indie-folk group, The Little Stevies and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria playing their own songs. (The girls actually still release music as The Little Stevies) In 2015, inspired by the need to teach Byll’s three-year-old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children’s songs. What began as a side-hobby became so fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and The Teeny Tiny Stevies were born. Before they knew it, their debut album ‘Useful Songs for Little People’ had become a word-of-mouth sensation around Australia. They’ve since released 4 albums through ABC Music, won both the ARIA Award and AIR Award for ‘Best Children’s Album’ in 2020, been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street’s online channel in the US, and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book, released in December 2021, was nominated for the 2022 ABIA Best Children’s Book Award. They’ve also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC KIDS TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC KIDS iView app. And at the time of recording this, the girls are up for another ARIA Award for their album How to Be Creative, the winners announced this week. Beth website Podcast - instagram / website Tiny Tiny Stevie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to have you. today. I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast bet Stephen. She's a singer songwriter, and mother of two from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the teeny tiny Stevie's Beth grew up in a very musical family. Her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to gigs and listen to her parents bands rehearse. In her teenage years, Beth and her sister veal, decided to start their own indie folk group, the little Stevie's and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria, playing their own songs. The girls actually still released music as the little steamies in 2015, inspired by the need to teach Bill's three year old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children's songs. What began as a side hobby became so much fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and the teeny tiny Stevie's were born. Before they knew it, their debut album, useful songs for little people had become a word of mouth sensation around Australia. They've since released four albums through ABC music won both the ARIA Award and the air award for best children's album in 2020. They've been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street's online channel in the US and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book released in December 2021 was nominated for the 2022 Abia Best Children's Book Award. They've also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC Kids TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC Kids IP app. And at the time of this recording, the girls are up for another ARIA award for their album how to be creative in the 2022 areas. The winners will be announced this week. The teeny tiny Stevie's music appears today with permission by my APRA m cos online mini licensing agreement. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed today's chat. When it's time to end everything is I lay down my head say good night. Thanks so much for coming on today, Beth. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome me and to meet you as well. Alison, it's an absolute delight to be here. Thank you. You are a little bit of a famous person, you and your sister. Are we are we famous, you're famous. I don't know that. I did just do like a heap of shows at the Opera House. We did. And my goodness, have we been telling everybody because it's not every day that you get to perform at such such an amazing venue. And so look, we may never be able to do it again. But hopefully we do. So I think I'm starting to go through life with that sort of mind frame which which I'm quite enjoying it just going enjoy this as it may be the last time which has been actually really great to just really lean into enjoying things as much as you can. Yeah, that's thing isn't it? Because sometimes we can take things for granted in the moment. It's just happening. But yeah, if you can sort of stop and go actually, yes, I'm going to experience this fully and and there's nothing wrong with telling people to because you can be really proud of yourself you know to sing at the Opera House is a pretty big achievement. So yeah, I quite enjoyed the the secret of skates. You know, bringing the ring what was it the physio Are you because I've just done some shows of the opera house? Yes. And I should ask you that, you know, credit to my sister bill, my big sister bill. She is quite the comedic talent. And look, she she entertains me as much as she entertains. Everybody else who follows follows us on on the socials. You get the feeling she quite enjoys doing that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it could be a throwback to a few drama. Training that she did. I remember going to hear VCA drama, final performance, and it was quite quite entertaining and amusing outside the UK. So using skills in different parts of life. So as good. So tell our listeners, what you are and who you don't what, sorry, what you do. You do. That is it. You ever said introduction to to yourself and what you are passionate about with your music? Well, as you said, I am a musician and songwriter. And I work with my sister, Bill Stevens Avila. And we are the teeny tiny Stevie's and we started this project maybe six or seven years ago, after we had been playing music together as the little Stevie's since we were teenagers. And we sort of got to the point where Bill was starting to have kids herself. And we just sort of got to the point where we had to start asking ourselves some, you know, difficult, challenging questions, a lot centered around how we're going to keep doing this, if we want to, you know, with the money that we're making at the time, which essentially wasn't really enough. And so the way that life was changing, we sort of had to ask ourselves, those questions of how we were going to do it, what should we do going forward, we still want to keep doing music. And that's when we decided that we wanted to do a bit of a pivot, you know, reinvent ourselves a bit. As you have to do all the time, going through life, when you sort of you find yourself getting stuck a bit, and you sort of have to think about things differently. And that's when we started seeing tiny Stevie's. And we thought, at the time, actually, we were thinking about potentially writing some comedy music, which I feel ridiculous even saying that sentence, because I'm not, not the naturally funny one. But I sort of thought, you know, maybe I could be the straight person, you know, again, side by side with Bill and I should be the funny man. And we did actually, you know, try and write some music like that. But then the other thing that we were exploring was trying to write some kid songs. And I sort of, say, Kids Songs in quotation marks, because I guess, the journey that the team science babies has been on, and what we have discovered about ourselves, and what we like to do, and our skill set is that it's not specifically for kids, it's for families. And we like to write about things that can be great conversation starters, within the household and within, you know, social settings and, and friendship circles. So yeah, and really, you know, over the last six or seven years, it's just gone from strength to strength, and it has definitely become the main thing now that we do, which is incredible. I never really thought that. I mean, I certainly hoped and dreamed that music would become the main thing that was has always been the dream. But, you know, for it to actually become that that's pretty special. So, you know, going back to trading each thing that we do, as you know, this could be the last time so we're definitely going to enjoy it. I think maybe those two things are connected a bit of just going off got to pinch ourselves. Sometimes we get to do all this amazing stuff. Yeah, it's fantastic. I love speaking to people who have have made their love into what they do every day. I think it's just wonderful. It's just, it's such a fulfilling life to have, like, I can't, like not speaking from experience with the music side of things, but the job that I have with children I absolutely adore. And I'm so lucky that I do it every day. And I sometimes think that I think God I get paid to do this, like, yeah, I would do it anyway. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it? Fortunately, or unfortunately, you do it anyway. And we would do it anyway, at least, you know, if I think if you do have something that you're just driven by and so passionate about, you will you will fight for it and you will do it no matter what. in some capacity, you know, not always in the capacity that you would hope. Hope see, because obviously there are lots of things in life that can that impact that. But yeah, it's uh, yeah, fortunate later on unfortunately, forget on the day. Yeah, yeah in my mind in my head so your sister, how how many you guys twins? Or is there a bit of an age gap? Sorry, I'm not really sure. No, that's okay. Looking with Bill was listening she she'd love that comment that you just made? No, we're not twins. But you are probably the third person that's asked that question this week. Oh, I think is a huge four years older than I but she just doesn't seem to age. So somehow she managed to get that really fantastic, Jane. Yeah, that's actually I can, I can appreciate what you're saying. Because my sister and I, I'm two and a half years older, but for years, you know, and even now, sometimes people will get us confused because they're speaking voices and our singing voices are almost identical. And I used to trick people on the phone when we were younger. That who they're talking to, and my sister, the she used to work in our family, plant nursery, and people would see me down the street and ask me questions about their Protoss drums or their whatever's and I just, I don't like to embarrass people like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I'm not Emma, I just sort of play along. Oh, gosh, oh, it was because I just I felt I wouldn't do it now. But I felt really bad for the person. And I'll pop into the nursery, and I'll help you in. And then you find yourself into doping. You're like, Oh, yeah. And I don't want to have to be like, Emma, there's a person gonna come in and think that they've already spoken to you. So get ready, you know? Yeah. I mean, did you girls ever do stuff like that? Like, cheeky things? Do you know what I actually don't think we did? I don't have any memories of it. Which, that sounds very boring. I know. Now you sound like fun. Very fun. So you girls have always sang together? Is this been a thing that's happened right from the present? As you know, for as long as you can remember? Absolutely. Yeah. So our parents were musicians, full time musicians for a good period of time in their working life. So certainly, as a little kids, you know, we as young kids, we saw Mom and Dad, you know, going off to work at night, they would pick up, you know, they'd get all dressed up in their stage view, and then pack their know their bags, and the babysitter would come around, and we, you know, go to bed just after they left. And yeah, that was just lots of strong memories of that. And then lots of big memories of the band coming over to rehearse in the garage. And we would either be, you know, in there listening with them observing everything, I don't know, rolling around on the floor, probably, or in the main house, you know, sort of listening through the baby monitor type scenario. So yeah, I've got really fond memories of all that. So you know, as a household music was always encouraged. Mum and Dad have always been extremely enthusiastic about us taking an interest in it. And I think you know, now that I've got kids in my own, I think probably when we reached those teenage years, when we started to show interest separate from Mum and Dad, and we started to explore things together a bit more. And we kind of discovered each other in our teenage years. Though, I can imagine that they were wrapped, you know, that we just had something to focus that energy into, because I guess, you know, sometimes teenagers can be a bit. You know, you can find yourself a bit lost and distracted. And so I think to have that, yeah, had to have that focus was probably a great thing. You know, maybe they probably weren't so stoked when it became obvious that we were really going to pursue it seriously. In terms of, you know, the money of them probably thinking to themselves, Oh, I don't I don't know if it's the most secure. Most secure Korea, but you know, as parents, it's yeah, it's a hard thing to balance all those feelings, I imagine. Yeah, that's the thing is a lot. I'm going through that with my son at the moment. He's thinking about what he wants to do. And I keep saying choose something that you love. Just pick something you really love. And my husband's a financial planner, and he's going Yeah, but make sure you know, you got enough money. I know it's, it's, yeah, I imagined their hard conversations to have. Yeah, yeah. So did you start learning instruments like formally or do you just pick things up from your parents? I had that sort Okay, both we do Yeah, we both did, you know, formal training on instruments through school, I think that was a bit of a expectation that mum and dad had. But then we also did it just ourselves, you know, at home, pick up picking up the guitars and stuff like that, and started to write songs. But really, you know, learning the guitar, and instruments like that was really just a vessel to be able to write songs and start writing songs. And I think at some stage, Mom said to me, she goes up to both of us, but she said, You know, one of the best things that you can do is to just learn an instrument that you can accompany yourself with. So you're not reliant on anybody else. To be able to write and perform your own songs, if that's what you want to do. And that was really great advice. And I'd probably give that year on to anyone else. Because it's great if you can just be self reliant, and then you can collaborate with others. But you know, if there aren't other people to collaborate with, and you can't rely on other people, you can still do the thing that you love. And you can still do it really well. And you don't have to be a superstar on your instrument. You just, it's just handy to be able to, you know, play a few chords. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And then yeah, as a tool for songwriting, that you've actually got something you can not get you, your chords on, or, you know, he trains and things. Yeah. So can I ask with your parents, with a songwriters, as well, what sort of band did they have? They were, so they did their own original stuff. And they also did a bunch of covers. So I think for them, it was a mixture of the cover work, you know, really paid the bills. And then they also did their original stuff, and sort of kind of integrated the two a lot of the time, and also did separate things within music. So yeah, and when they were younger, before we were on the scene, as kids, they had their separate original groups when they you know, in their early 20s. And they did lots of touring, and you know, had their their own success doing that. And then when they got together as a couple started the new thing. And, and they continue doing that while Bill was a young kid, and then for a little bit when I came along, but I think certainly me as the second child, I sort of burst the dream a little bit, and they got some more reliable jobs, or better paid jobs. If everyone was gentle all the time, everyone would feel so good. I'm jumping into this early in the conversation, but have you found that you've sort of that role modeling of how to balance the two has been useful for you with your own children? Oh, definitely. But I would probably say, only because, you know, I've, I was a kid when my parents were doing this themselves. So there's not really I can't really have a great understanding or, or perspective on that, I guess, now, but what I do have, and what I've had been so lucky to have is Bill, who has who went through it all before me, you know, at least sort of six or seven years before me and because we spend so much time together, and we also have a business together, and we work together in so many different capacities. I've seen that very, very closely what she's gone through. And that's just been hugely beneficial for me. I mean, it's still it's not like having your own kids and going through that yourself. By any means. Yeah, you'll, you'll sort of never really understand that to that level until you're doing it yourself. Because you're always going to have a different experience for someone else. But yeah, to be able to see all those peaks and Trump's very closely was very helpful. I think it made me go in with very low expectations, to be honest. And I think that was quite handy. Yeah, that's true, isn't it? Because I think that's the thing, like, unless you see it, you can have all these wild ideas, like I'm gonna wear the baby while I'm, you know, recording or you know, all these sort of things, and then you just happen to have it happen to you and you go on, that's never gonna work like so at least you sort of had this rough idea of what was perhaps achievable and, and what wasn't. Definitely, and the stress, you know, the stress of, you know, if you're doing here with another person, and you know, there's a partnership or relationship involved, like, what a huge thing. What a huge stress to put on a relationship like that's, it's enormous and it's and it's and it's ongoingly stressful, it's also can be great and beautiful and all of those things, but it's a constant negotiation and compromise and, and just because you talk about one thing once doesn't mean that it's going to remain that way for In the next 20 years, and, you know, you've got to nurture and meet everyone's needs involved is really tricky. Obviously, we all know that. So yeah. 22nd We're in the summer holiday, people rush to get this stuff done. So they can stop and take a break Christmas movies on the TV, Sunday's up close to the tree. So back to you girls in as the little Stevie. So what sort of how old? were you when you first started sort of that project? And what sort of things were you doing with that? So we started when I was 15. And I think Bill had just finished high school. And we, we basically just started applying for folk festivals around Victoria. And we were really lucky to get a couple of opportunities, doing those. And because we'd already started writing some songs, we really just, yeah, we started on the folk festival circuit for those years after that, and we just kind of learnt on the job, you know, which can be can be difficult when you're learning everything in front of an audience. And at that age to like you, I mean, not 15 Is not that old to be getting out there. And, you know, perhaps in a more adult sort of world as well. Yeah, look, it's um, you know, there's, there's so many different aspects to them, is it? I mean, it's, it's just, it's such a steep learning curve, when you are, how can I put this, we've never sort of been a group, you know, or sort of done music where we've just done it at home, in the privacy of our own space for years, and years and years. Before we go and perform it, or share it in front of an audience or with people, it's always been our rally song. Okay, well, I guess we better go and, you know, do something with it, you know, or not, and perform it. And that's, and that's when some of the embarrassing moments can happen when you're literally, you know, you're learning in front of an audience and in front of people. But gosh, you do some quick learning. And, yeah, I think sometimes if you if you spend too much time, just creating at home and sort of not sharing it, and you know, and it's hard to share it because you got to means you got to be vulnerable. And you know, you're putting yourself up for criticism. Yeah, sometimes, then you can sort of risk just never putting anything out and never showing anyone anything, and never been happy with anything as well. And then all of a sudden, so much time can pass. Anyway, so does that mean then you feel really comfortable on stage? Because, you know, literally anything could happen, anything could go wrong. And you're okay with that? Oh, no, I wouldn't say I'm okay with that. Okay. No, I like I know, I still get nervous all the time. And we still get nervous all the time. If, yeah, if there was a there was a video sort of videoing us when we get off stage every time Oh, my goodness, it would be just so embarrassing. Witnessing the conversations that we have, like, it's you know, I'll say isn't it's all literally let's just jump into just like talking about all the things that we you know, all the things we did wrong and all the mistakes that we made and oh, oh, what do you think they thought when we said this or did that and It'd be terrible if if, if people actually knew that, you know, the critique that we put ourselves through after we got off stage. But look I just mentioned i i just love performing. I love it so much. And Bill does too. So yeah, we just gotta get out there and do it. Hmm. So what aspects of performing Do you love the most when you say you really love it? What what do you look forward to? For a gig? Well, I love singing like I love the action of seeing the physical action of singing and it's you probably feel the same way or just it just makes you feel so joyous you know? It's a it really there's I don't know it's like exercising it just makes you feel incredible as endorphins go Yeah, you know mentally and physically so I think just that alone, I love the feeling that I get whilst doing it and after but I also love I love this is going to probably sound like I'm sort of I love the sort of validation or or positive affirmation and look, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that. I think everyone enjoys you know, getting positive feedback and but you know, we've been so If you go and someone comes up after a show or emails us and says, I've connected, or this, these lyrics that you wrote, have made me feel like this, or this has been my life experience, you have just summed that up so beautifully. You know, and they said something deeply personal about themselves, because they heard something that you've written like that is beyond special. And, you know, that's just, yeah, that makes you keep going. Because you're just like, wow, I don't I'm not sure. I think anything gets much better than this. Yeah, that is pretty awesome, isn't it? It's sort of I liken it to, it will never happen to me on this scale. But you know, when you're at the concerts and the famous people, they hold out the mic, and everyone knows the words, it's like that, yeah. Oh, you get it, you get me like, yeah, resonating with something that I'm putting out there. And that that is hugely validating? It's sort of, I mean, I know, we don't necessarily do our art for that reason. But it's a lovely, sort of side thing of that, that, that you're connecting with people, you know, and if you can't, yeah, you can reach somebody who might get so much out of what you're sharing like that, that example you gave. And it's so special, it is an awesome feeling. It is awesome. And, and we all know what it's like to have another person write a song. And for us to feel like there's just something up for us, and how special that is to be on the other side of things. Yeah, and there's so many people that I wish that I could say that to, you know, if I saw them in a physical sense that I just love to say, how much of an impact they've had on me. Which Yeah, now when I'm saying that loud, I should just do that more often. Through the wonders of social media, we actually have access to people we for I don't know, I used to write fan mail and post it off into the nether and you know, oh, that's so good. You remember the old Smash Hits magazine? Back? Yes. It was like, you know, they'd have their their fan mail address. And I'm swear, no one ever got those letters. But now you can literally just message someone and say, You're awesome. Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it? Yeah. I really love that. This is totally off topic. But the other day, you know, Constantino, that magician? He's like, the grand illusion. Oh, yes. Yeah, he came to me at Gambia. And that was a big deal. Because we're just, you know, a little country town in the middle of Adelaide. And afterwards, because, you know, when you're, when you're in the know, you know, where the stage door is, and, you know, roughly how long people take to come out. So, my little, my little seven year old, he's a massive fan. He's got his books, you know, he's into him. And I said, Come on, let's wait till he comes out. And he's like, Oh, really, I said yet. It'll only be like half an hour. And it was only us and one other group of people were there. And he came out. And I said to him, I said, Because and Taylor said, what you're doing, you know, he writes books for kids with reading difficulties or ADHD dyslexia. Yeah, he went through that as a kid. And I said to him, thank you so much for what you're doing for the kids. Yeah. And he was so chuffed that did be had his book. You know, I think that meant that meant so much to him. You know, everyone loves his show, you know, he knows that everyone thinks he's amazing, but I think that connection with a child who was really into his stuff, and I made sure I told him because I'm like, This is great, like, yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm sure he appreciated that. And I can I can get a bit fangirl sometimes. And you will. It's hard to find the words though, isn't it? It is literally I don't know one day I met Kate soprano because my sister and I were this is really random store I don't know why I'm coming out with this. But we were at this corporate gig corporate event in on the Gold Coast for for plant nursery. And she just happened to be the the entertainment and so she was she called for people to come up sage singer backing track they didn't have the mics turned on so we were like off for God's sakes then we can sing we can sing proper backing but you know they had the microphone. And when I when I walked off I all I could say was I love you so much. It was just so embarrassed. I just love you so much and she's probably thinking God Who are these drunk women up on stage but anyway, I'm digressing now. These I don't go in my pants when I saw this this time you saying six or seven years ago you guys decided to do you change the direction And I'm really intrigued to know how you were received initially. And I don't want to I'm not comparing you to the wiggles at all, because you're completely different. The depth and the thought that goes into what you write and what you share is phenomenal. And so I'm just wondering, like, how, how it went down, as he would just ask that question, I was thinking to myself, Oh, my gosh, I wish I can maybe I recall. Sounds like a long time ago now. But look, I feel I feel as though probably for us, during the whole time that we've been doing music stuff. Sometimes, and often we have you know, we've we've written something, or we've taken a sort of decided that we take these kind of an approach. Yeah, we're even thinking to ourselves, Well, I'm not sure how this is gonna be received. But it feels right, it feels like the right thing to do. And she feels like the right thing to do for us. I think when we started, we definitely knew what we didn't want to do. And we had a pretty clear vision of what we did want to do what we didn't want to do. And we want to keep performing music alive, in pretty much the same capacity of what we're doing with the little Stevie's, which is really just a live band. Wearing what we would normally wear on stage, playing our instruments. But yeah, we weren't interested in doing anything else other than that. And yeah, there was there was probably a lot of questions around though I don't know, if that's going to necessarily been engaging enough. Or so there was a bit of, there was definitely some trial and error for sure. I think one of the first gigs that we did, as a team timings was at a festival, it was a festival slot. And, you know, we kind of like even scripted a bit of dialogue in between the songs, and, and sort of tried to, like, you know, order the songs to tell a bit of a story. And after we came on stage, that time we were, it was very obvious. We're just like, oh, no, this is not, this is not what we want to do. But this didn't work. And it was, unfortunately, you have to live through some things like that, to really realize what you don't want to do, and what's not going to work. So there was a bit of that in the first instance. And also, when the first few songs that we wrote, you know, having really young kids to try them on, as well was extremely valuable. You know, Bill's eldest child at the time was three, and we started with a toilet training song. And the rainbow song, they were one of the two of the first songs that we wrote. And they'll really taken very well and received very well by him. So, so then that gives you confidence to keep going. So yeah, having that immediate feedback from kids was really valuable. And it just sort of developed from there to be honest. Green roughly being beans, celery and apples, spinach, peas and lettuce, I. I am on my way. I mean, you've written to my favorite ones that the I'm the boss of mind, body, that's one that really gets stuck in my head. I really like that one. And you've written songs by song about COVID about staying home? Like do you basically look at what's happening? And what's important to you, and maybe look at your kids and see what's happening with them. And that's where your inspiration comes from? Yeah, has in the past the first three albums that we did useful, helpful, thoughtful songs, or little people, they were pretty much mostly, the ideas are sort of crowd sourced. So I mean, the first, the first, like the first step, and we came up with those things ourselves. And then the second two, we put a call out and we said to parents and educators and carers what, what what would be helpful to have songs written about, and they gave us lots of ideas, and people were really, really engaged with that, which was awesome. And lots of the same things started getting mentioned. So the ones that were repeatedly mentioned, were like, well, obviously, there's a huge need, and desire for a song about this. So then we just give it our best go at writing about that particular theme and, and I should sort of emphasize the fact that it's, yeah, it's the the lyrical process is a long process. And all the lyrics are very sort of, you know, scrutinized by by ourselves and so there's Yeah, it's not a it's not a quick job, the lyrics because you know, We also know that your lyrics are incredibly powerful and, and kids, in particular, listen to things on repeat. And again and again and again and again. You know, I'm an adult that listens to things on repeat to I got, I bought everyone around me with just watching their same movies and the same TV show that I, you know, I think for some people that gives a lot of comfort to, you know, repeatedly listen and watch and hear things. So, yeah, we're just we're just very much very aware of that. So we want to make sure that we put a lot of thought into them. Hmm, that's a really good point. Speaking of things being on repeat, I've had Hamilton the Hamilton musical only my car for about three years now. The other day, we finally saw the actual stage show. So that was nice. So now we've moved on to something else. But yeah, you had your flight? Yes, I've had the fix now. And it's funny because now I've seen the stage show that Australian actors do the nuances and the intervene to nation a slightly different and so now when I listened to the state the the I called Broadway, I'm like, Oh, that's not how it went. Jason era didn't do it like that. You know, everything. Yeah, the older days out. But I do that, too. I get fixated on things. Or the Beatles. I'm back on the Beatles now. Listen to this same album, but it never gets old. You just know it doesn't. They will never get out. Ever. Thank goodness. One male body, male body? I am. So with you guys with your singing with your harmonies and stuff, have you always just naturally like, I guess I'm comparing it to my sister and I like our voices is she's slightly lower than me and I go slightly higher, but in that general with both our toes, but I can go slightly up a bit. And so I've always just taken the higher harmony. Do you guys have like a? What's the word, a system or a method that works for you? I mean, I think when we were kids bill would always take the harmony just because she was always much better than me. I've been able to pitch in arrange harmonies, she's got a real real knack for it. But yeah, giving myself a bit of credit to as I've become an adult and also grown and developed, I think. Yeah, I think I think we're both pretty good at doing that now and and we both just, you know, take it into singing lead singing harmony. And it's really fun. Keeps it really interesting, huh? Do you guys have like, again, I'm comparing to myself like a sort of an invisible, like connection of communication when you're on stage, like, someone might move their eyebrow a little bit or look a certain way. And the other person goes, Oh, crap, that bit, you know, like you have this this way of communicating with each other without anyone really knowing. Yeah, I think so. Although, although, I've often told that I think that I'm smiling to my bandmates interview on stage. And then they go on stage saying that you're just looking at us like this the whole time. Like I've done something wrong. No, I was just smiling at you like I'm really having fun. So, so there is communication there. I'm not sure if we're really receiving the correct communication, but the other ones trying to communicate all the time. But we think we're communicating. But look, in terms of singing the actual, you know, the actual singing that we Yeah, we're, because we've been doing it for so long together. I think we're pretty good at predicting what the other one is going to do. And to be able to match each other and shadow each other and that type of thing. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't relate to that. It's like, sometimes when we've been performing like, we both start singing the tune or something. And for Amelie say it'll like literally a millisecond. And then it'll be like, Oh, she is in the hammock, like, and it's like, watching would ever get that we've just stuffed up. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. So quickly. And so intuitively. It's so much fun. I just like we did a wedding just the other week. And we hadn't been together for so long because of COVID. And just, I really pulled back from gigs, but we did this wedding and we're just sitting there. Obviously, it's so fun. You know, we've forgotten so lovely. And it was so great. Yeah, it was so lovely. It was a great was great fun. They had the the photo booth right next to us though, so it was like laughing and I'm like him as always on my left. I've got to have her in my left ear. I don't know why it's just a really, it's a quick that I have so I've tried to shut out this site and listen to her on so I'm sure why that's so nice that you said those things out loud. And you acknowledge the fact that it was really fun. Because it is. And I feel like I'm really guilty of not doing that enough. And I'm trying to do that a bit more. Over just yeah, really acknowledge and verbalize when something's really fun when you're really enjoying doing something with another person, so they know so they know that you're really enjoying this time that you're spending together. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But that doesn't make it easy. Nothing says everything. starts again. So back on to your your children. How many kids do you have? So we've got two kids. We've got a four year old and a nine month old. Oh, little tracker. Yeah. So yes. Again, back to you. Your stories on Instagram. How hard is it really traveling with the kids? Like, there was a funny, funny, one of like, pushing the pram and there's things hanging off every single like, on the frame? And, you know, that is that literally the realities of going on tour with the kids? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And look, we, I wouldn't say that we it's it for our collective kids to come away with us. Because as we can all hopefully agree, it's so hard to work and parent at the same time. And when you're trying to do both at the same time, inevitably, something something somewhere, you don't do it as good a job as you could, if you're not doing the two at the same time. So, so yeah, it's this year, my baby has come away with this a lot, because she's been so young, hopefully into the future. That won't necessarily be their regular thing. But again, you know, each each, every few months, you know, we sort of need to look at things again. And say and sort of went through all the different commitments that have come up. Because, you know, all the touring commitments that we've had this year has been a lot more intense than previous years. So and our circumstances have changed again, you know, family wise. So yeah, it's just a constant juggle and a constant. Yeah, just renegotiation? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because the children are always growing? Stages? Yeah, the needs are changing and what they what they're capable of, or what you're capable of doing with their mare. And, you know, yeah, it's always been, like constant reassessment. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to ask you about are not just on that for a change tab. So where have you Where have you been this year? So far? What what's you've been your sort of, I don't want to say your schedule, your tour schedule. You've been we have some places you've Oh, my gosh, we've been everywhere. We have been. We've been to most states this year already. And we're going and we're just continuing to do more over the next six, six to 12 months. So we've been all around New South Wales and Northern Territory went there for the first time this year, which was amazing. All around Victoria, South Australia. We're going all around Queensland, over January this year. So yeah, just just everywhere, and look, the nature of our music, because it's for kids and families. It's mostly weekend and school holiday work, where we do most of our touring. And look, because you know, my partner and I do very different things. So he has a weekday job, pretty standard office hours, and then I'm doing weekends and school holidays. That does work quite well. And I don't know, I just don't know how people who are working in the same industry. They manage exam time. Yeah. I mean, there's challenges to everybody. But that because I'm not living that. That experience. To me, that just seems huge. If you're competing for the same time. Yeah. Yeah, literally the same time to try and work. Yes, yeah. There'll be so many conflicts in schedules. And it's like, yeah, someone would have to have to sort of let things go, I guess at different times. It would be very challenging. Yeah, exactly. I have tripped up to some space. But human beings names they shall always leave to them. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was singing away from my dreams with your songwriting process? Like, do you just pick up ideas here, there and everywhere? And then come together with your sister and just bang it out? Or do you often like come to each other with, like, with a half done song, like, how do you sort of work in that way, it's a bit of everything, we often, because we're now living in different places, the, we don't often sit in a room together, and just create something from scratch, it'll be one of us coming up with an idea, you know, maybe a nearly finished one, or maybe just the beginnings of something, and then we just send it to the other person, the other person has their time with it, I send it back. And then when it's goes back and forth a few times, and then when it's, you know, pretty much in its fully formed song, or, you know, or book or whatever the thing is, then we'll get together and we'll just knock out the last little bit and just rehearse it up. So suppose in a state that we can perform it or you know, get the Voice Memo recording out and just do a acoustic recording on our phone. Imagine if we lost our phones. And imagine if we lost all the voice memos thinkable. It is unthinkable. And it's also think of all because it's like, how I don't it's like I barely know how to backup my computer, or what's on my phone onto my computer. So just Just don't be lost. Oh, what a disaster that would be. Oh, man, I was talking to a I had on my podcast the other day. It's not out yet. It will be seen. I recorded an episode. That's what I was meant to say, with as a songwriter. And we were joking about how you could be anywhere doing anything, and you'll get an idea. And until you've written that down or recorded that idea, you just cannot relax, like you're just in this state of, I'm going to forget it. I quickly have to do something with this. And you'd like she was joking. She's got all these little voice recordings if you're going in and new stuff. And then you listen to it later. And you've got to try and make sense of what your idea. Oh, I know. And to anyone else. Oh my gosh, it would be so embarrassing for someone else to just start listening to them all, online. All of mine start with this a standard tuning Capo one, five. This is what tuning Capo on blah. And it's just so it's just so boring to listen to. Do you ever wake up in the morning and have something in your head? No, no, that's never happened to me. A lot of people but no, not to me. I actually I love talking to musicians because I love it. I love it. Everybody has these, you know, all the different ways that they write or the different ways they get used. I just find it so fascinating. It's just fun. All right, well, I'll stop indulging myself. Yeah. That's great. I love I love hearing all of this, all of this stuff that you do yourself, too. It's so very interesting. It's so much fun. Love it, it is fun. And you know, on that, it's like when it stops being fun, then maybe that's, you know, that's usually the time that you got to change something, isn't it? Or maybe time to stop doing something and then start something else. Yeah, because, yeah, you definitely want there always to be an aspect of fun for that, and that's the thing, like when I said to my son, you know, you've got to you've got to do this every day. You don't want to literally wake up every morning and just go Oh god this again, you know, you want to be energized by what you do. And and if you're passionate about something, you know, if it's your your music or whatever you're doing that you're you're sharing that with people you know, I sort of feel like you've got this thing in you that you've managed to make into something and then sharing it with people is just the icing on the cake you know like she can wait to me she can't lie to me. I know some families back on to you being a mom. I like to talk to moms about the concept of their identity. So You know, you've always been a musician, singer songwriter doing your thing. When you became a mum? Did you? Did you really want to hold on to that part of your life? Did you feel like that was important? You weren't going to just go? Now my mom not going to do anything else? I'm just going to be mom. I mean, totally, I think, I think whether we care to admit it or not, we're all changed immensely when you have accused because your whole world changes. And that maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone's the same. But But yeah, for me, absolutely. I mean, your whole identity sort of changes. I mean, you know, in the first instance, all of a sudden, you go from being this independent person, who really, you know, if you've got a partner, and you know, you are thinking about him, to a degree and kind of do I mean, but you're still kind of two individuals. You know, doing life together, but there's still so much of that, that is separate and individual and independent from each other. But then when kids come on the scene, like, yeah, their needs, then it have to come first. And so, and that can be really hard to swallow. In terms of, you know, I really, there are still things that we all want to do. So fulfill us and to fulfill our own needs. And just sometimes, yeah, and often, you just can't do that. So yeah, definitely. And also just, you know, all the sort of the biggest sort of society, the society, sorry, societal things, you know, of becoming a mom and, and some things to do with gender as well, all of this stuff changes, you know, sometimes, and you can often work out how you feel about it, or actually work out what's going on at the time, but it doesn't feel right. And it can take some time to sort of explore those things and work out where you are, and how it's affecting you and what it is what it actually is to be able to verbalize what the thing is. I'm not sure if any of that made sense. Gosh, it is. Yes. And that's where I was leading you to because I look, I've spoken to a few members on this show. I've got to be careful how I ask questions, because I assume that everybody feels sometimes feels the same way that I did. And I've spoken to some mums who have just gone. No, I just went, I'm going to be mum, that's great. And I just went, that wasn't me. Yeah. You know, and so I've got to be careful how I don't want to ask leading questions. But I did lead you into that, because I had a feeling you'd say that. Yeah, well, I mean, I, yeah, gosh, the idea of? No, I definitely, I'd say definitely the person, a type of person who likes to have a good balance of both. I'm just happy, I'm just a happier person, if I'm also doing unstuff. Otherwise, I just get too cranky. Allison, too cranky. And I don't I don't like listening to myself. I can totally relate to that. I think I'm just a happy presence for everyone. If and it's funny, like, you know, both my partner and I, we acknowledge that and and say those things out loud. And it really has to be like, Okay, we have to we have to let each other do these things that we want to need to do to various degrees so that when we're when we're coming back and interacting with the rest of the family, you know, we're out of the we're close to the best versions of ourselves. Absolutely otherwise said that. Otherwise, there's too much resentment. Hey, that can just simmer up very quickly. Yeah, that's the word that I can definitely relate to is that resentment is just Yeah, and I'm not saying that in a negative like, God, I feel like I've got to justify everything I say now. But you know, I love my children. I love being a mom. But I also love doing things that I love to do that don't involve my children, you know? Oh, definitely. And that's, there shouldn't be any shame in saying. No, exactly. And here's the thing, right? We feel we feel guilty saying anything like that. Of course we love our kids. Yeah, of course. We love them. I love mine. Immensely. When I'm not with them. I miss them. And then when I'm too often, they can drive me absolutely nuts. Yep. I mean, and then yeah, and then I feel guilty about that. And then it's just crazy. And then and then you can't fully enjoy the time when you're away from them. Because you have all these feelings too. And then, you know, and then yeah, you're missing them a little bit. You're like, What is wrong with me? is wrong. It is just this perpetual thing isn't it's like we cannot escape it. Whether we're with them or without them. There's some element of guilt that We feel it's just, ah, it's horrible. I know it's huge. And yeah, you start to then see your own parents in a different light to realize that, oh, they probably felt all of these things, too. Yeah. Maybe I should have been more kind to them. You get new appreciation? Yeah, maybe I should be less judgmental of my parents. It is it is an interesting science lesson. But it's an interesting experience to be an old to be older and have your own children and look back on your parents with so much compassion. You think my God, you know, that what? You know, I don't know. I think we're so hard on ourselves. And everyone's just doing the best that they can with what they've got at the time. And yeah, you know, give me a break. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, cuz Yeah, mom guilt is something that I do like to chat to all my moms about. And I have had two people in this last week was the 78th episode that went out to mums. Wow, that have said they don't know what it is. They had to google it. And I was like, Yes, this should be all of us. We should not even have this word, you know? Yeah. And I feel like, you know, a lot of the people I talk to sort of share the view that, that it's this, the it's the external judgment, and the external societal norms or expectations placed upon us and making us feel this way, you know, if we just mothered the way we wanted to, and didn't feel this pressure, we wouldn't feel guilty because we'd be doing what we wanted with you. No, no. No, external helps. It helps to move your arms does help. You know, you know me. Ah, yeah. And social media. I think it's just been, it's got a lot a lot to answer for when it comes to this judgment of each other and things like that. It's yeah, totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many great things and so many bad things, that social media, it's to have it, it's a hard, hard balance to get a feel. With social media. Yeah. Because most of the mums I speak to are on there for you know, their art sharing their work, or, you know, they're for business. So yeah, you sort of feel like you've got to be on there. But then it's interesting to the last few people I've spoken to have been really had some, you know, the great advice, which should be obvious, but sometimes when other people say things, you notice it more than if you thought it yourself, but you know, only following people that make you feel good. You constantly see someone come up and they they trigger something in you don't keep looking at them. I know. It's such a simple thing. But yeah, so simple and so obvious. But why do we Why do we find ourselves doing it? I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny, funny world. Imagination tell me they're under my bed when worries come in and like wave rushing up to my, my superpower. It's essential that you have your support network in whatever way that you need that support. I'm sure that support comes in different forms for each individual and each family and each household. But, yeah, I mean, personally, I certainly feel very appreciative. And I was I was thinking in the car the other day and thinking how I would say this, and answer this question. If it came up with going, I don't think I feel lucky. I feel nervous using the word lucky because I feel like the insinuation is that I've had nothing to do with it. You know, if I say I feel lucky to have a partner that I do, I feel very appreciative. Because we certainly, I think we're doing okay, and again, ebbs and flows, I think we're going doing all right, you know, so far of trying to let each other you know, flourish kind of professionally and sort of try and really strive for those things that we want to do outside of having kids and parenting, which is so important. I think if I felt like I was just battling, you know, against someone or really trying to fight for time, all the time, and vice versa. That's not conducive to being creative at all. So yeah, that's really important. And I think everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year. Everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful. You know, so and that's, you know, partner, SR manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And, and for that to be successful. So, yeah, that's, that was the thought that I had driving for hours yesterday in the car. Yeah. And I think it to being able to ask for what you want and make your needs clear that this is not going to work for me, or this is what I need to make myself comfortable here like not being afraid to speak, speak up, I suppose. Definitely. And yes, to be really clear about those expectations that you have of each other, and, and to have those high standards of each other. I think, you know, to have those high standards, and to have those, you know, a level of expectation, and also to communicate the expectations that you have of each other as well, because, gosh, if we, if we assume too much, we're generally wrong, or incorrect in our assumptions that we make. So we may as well just talk about it and clear it all out from the get go. So everyone's on the same page. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because I feel like, as much as you know, you, you're obviously, you know, we're attracted to our partners for a particular reason. That's great. We love them. But those people are still different to us. And I feel like, I know what I do is, you know, for example, in a situation, I'd do something this way, and I can't assume that my partner would do that. I've got to go, actually, what would you do? I've got to ask him stuff. Because I've learned over the years, we're very different in certain areas. And there's and when you assume you make an asset of you and me, so yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Third, ask Allison. Yeah. Yeah, I can play. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I think it's, it's just yeah, it's just so beneficial to just be really clear about what you want. You might not get what you want. Where you stand and ask for something. They won't be surprised because they know that's where you're hitting with things. And there's nothing up for interpretation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No mixed messages. Yeah, I had Adam Paige who's a South Australian. He's from Adelaide. He's a musician. And he said, when they had kids, he had to set like, literally have the conversation. This is what I need. From my music. This is what I need from this man. I should say also, that was Father's Day episode. Yes. Yes. Sorry. randomly say there's been a man on my show. That's a bit. Oh, no, I mean, it sounds great. I will get through all 70 episodes. Wow. Very impressive. You said you're up to the 70th episode. My goodness. It's a huge achievement look, honestly, I'm gonna say it again. It's just good fun. I just love doing it. I love talking to moms I love you know, chatting about stuff and sharing stuff and and I love the beat afterwards where you edit and stuff. I love doing that. So it's you know, it's a win win. That's great. Okay, doing at least peppers, strawberries, beets, rhubarb, and berries. Green, green, green. broccoli, beans, celery and apples. Spinach. Peas and lettuce. What do you got coming up the rest of the year? You said you you're still you still touring? Are you? Are you ever coming to mount Gambia? Just Well, I'm, I've got you. Gosh, I don't know, we probably will at some stage. But I can't for the life of me. Recall all of the places that we're going because there's too many. Which is actually awesome. I actually love that. That's always been a dream, you know, to just be able to to so much. But look what's coming up. I mean, we're about to we are we've, we've got so we've always got so many things on the go, which is great. We've got more books coming out. We've been very fortunate to be able to start writing and publishing some books, which is sort of based and expanded on from our songs. Obviously more touring. We've got some new music coming out towards the end of the year in preparation for Christmas time. And, yeah, I'm trying to think Is there is there anything else there's just there's just always stuff. There's always projects, and that's what I love. And, and that's yeah, that's the thing that we're hooked on. We just you just got to keep making projects for yourself, don't you? Because if you don't do it, if you don't initiate them yourselves, no one else is gonna initiate them for you. So funny I was in. I was in the shower yesterday. I get so many I don't know about you. But when I'm in the shower, it's like a portal opens up and I think of everything ever in the world. It's this Yasha thing. I'm in the shower and I'm thinking oh my god He's, I don't want to do this. And once he did, and then I got out the shower and went, Oh, but first I have to go make some school lunches and back to reality. Yeah, I'm gonna do all those jobs that actually make the day sort of just run successfully and smoothly. Oh, it was it was it was like one of those moments where it was just like a slap on the face like, yeah, you'd have to actually look after your children. You shouldn't do right. All those things download just so you don't forget them. I do. I'm an intense note writer, like I have to write down so often. I'll just like record voice messages in my phone for later. Oh, great. Yeah. There's probably quite a lot I've never really listened to. But I think if you're writing all those things down, then you're one step closer to actually achieving them than someone who doesn't. It sort of just forget tangible doesn't it's like yeah, actually, it's on a list. So it means it's, you're gonna keep thinking about it and keep, you know, well, it's all part of just making yourself accountable in a way. Yeah, it's the first step really? Yeah. Yep. Not the boss and many things. I'm just little and still learning. But I am the boss one thing. I'm not the boss of anyone else. I gotta let them be themselves. But I am the boss of one. Look, thank you so much for coming on, Beth. It's just so lovely to meet you and to chat with you. Everything keep doing what you're doing, because I think what you guys bring to the space is really important. And it does open up conversations, which is obviously that's your aim, and you're doing it beautifully. So thank you and say hi to your sister for me tell her I love her on it. I will it never gets old. Her hearing that people actually find what she does funny. If she could just mention a couple more times, you know, playing at the Opera House, that'd be good. I'm not sure if everyone's got the memo yet. I know it's too funny, isn't it? And hopefully, hopefully we do get to neck Gambia at some time or somewhere you know, you know somewhere close will if you do you know I'll be stalking you at the stage door. Oh yeah, I love that. Absolutely love that and funny. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Janelle Thomas Dubai based singer + songwriter S2 Ep64 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Janelle Thomas, a singer, songwriter and performer based in Dubai, UAE. and a mum of 2 boys. Janelle begin performing at the age of 5, at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons, and played in the high school Marching Band playing clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20's deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music at Concordia College in Montreal. Her day job wasn’t satisfying her, and fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for 4 months. Without really knowing where Oman was, she said yes! That was 16 years ago and she has performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract, when he joined the band as the guitarist and they have been together ever since. Janelle and Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015, they continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting two wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud, high-voltage 5-7 piece pop cover bands (as bandleader and musical director, respectively). Under the guise of "Lady J Duo" they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics, and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary, good-vibes-only listening experience that is elegant, yet funky. In the Autumn of 2012 they released Noise Rises (Strange Cat Records), an album of retro-inspired funky soul, featuring ten original songs they wrote together. In the spring of 2020, during the Dubai Covid-19 lockdown, Janelle and Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity, showcasing their favourite tunes, taking on-the-spot requests, and cameos by their firstborn Theo (a natural show-stealer). They continued these for 18 months. You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast today, and her music is used with permission. Connect with Janelle website / facebook / instagram Podcast - instagram / website You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast, and her music is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast this week. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Janelle Thomas, a singer songwriter and performer based in Dubai in the UAE, and a mom of two boys. Janelle began performing at the age of five at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons and played in the high school marching band on clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20s deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music at Concordia College in Montreal. her day job wasn't really satisfying. And fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for four months. without really even knowing where Oman was. She said yes, that was 16 years ago, and she's performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract when he joined the band as the guitarist. Janelle And Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015. They continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting to wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud High Voltage five to seven piece, pot cover band as bandleader and musical director respectively, under the guise of the Lady J. God, Lady J. bein Janelle, they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary good vibes only listening experience that is elegant yet funky. In the autumn of 2012. They released noise rises through strange cat records are an album of retro inspired funky soul, featuring 10 original songs that they wrote together in the spring of 2020. During the Dubai COVID-19 lockdown, Janelle And Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity showcasing their favorite chains, taking on the spot requests and featuring cameos by their firstborn Theo and natural show stealer. They continue these for 18 months. You're here Janelle is amazing vocals throughout this podcast today, and their music is used with permission. I hope you enjoy today's episode Gavin lane, got a fistful. Gonna run that bill will be the end of a long route backwards dad. No place my hands. Man and we're all gonna say welcome Janelle. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me. Allison. I'm excited. Yeah, so I can I can hear your lovely accent. You're from Canada. Is that right? I am. I'm from Canada, but I live in Dubai. Alright, so what how like, how long have you lived there for what sort of brought you there? So while the music Yeah. So my husband and I have been together 16 years. He's also Canadian. And we started traveling in a band. So So we were playing hotel residencies in the Middle East and throughout Asia. We did that for about eight, nine years. And then it brought us to Dubai. So we've been here since January 2015. And we're residents here now. And we've had two little boys here. So this is this is home for the time being. Yeah. So these are really hot there. Let the moment super hot. Yeah. I just got in from the pool. So I'm okay at the moment. But yeah, summers are very long they and very hot, especially with small kids. You really feel it so much more, because you're basically just inside for five months? Yeah, but it can get up to 50 degrees Celsius. Sand humid. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, the outdoors is kind of non existent, aside from if you're doing something in the water. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. With us being from Canada, we do have a bit of that experience. Because you'll have really cool times in the winter, where you don't go outside, you're not gonna go take a stroll or take your baby out or anything. But they don't tend to be constant, you know, you'll have cold days, and then it kind of warms up enough. And you pack on your layers and you go outside, whereas when it's hot, it's just hot. Yeah. Because you can't do anything you Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we used to find this. Okay. And since we had kids, we just find them brutal. So we're just counting down till October. Oh, my gosh. So what's like an average sort of when it when it's not so hot? What's the weather like, then? So lovely. You know, there's kind of six months of a year where it's gorgeous. And you kind of can't think about living anywhere else. So I would say sort of the coolest it gets probably in January, maybe days that are around 20 to 25. But Sunny, and gorgeous. It's perfect. Yeah, I mean, those are the times where I find it too cold to go swimming. I say that as a Canadian where I grew up swimming in icy lakes. But yeah, I get I get in the water now. And it's the season you sort of, you're sort of forced to do things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you had your own choice. If you lead with me. Love you. So tell me about how you got into music because it's something you've always done. Yes. And no, you know, probably like a lot of musicians always been a music lover. There was always lots of music in our house, my parents, neither of whom are musicians, but we had, you know, huge record collection. And there was always lots of singing and dancing that was encouraged. So, actually, I started performing. From age five, I lived in a really small town, and we had we had little ballet school. And that, for me was everything like those ballet recitals at the end of the year, you know, with costumes and makeup and lights. So I would say that that's where it all started was was there. So for the first few years, I danced, I took piano lessons, as you do. And then when it was time to go to high school, actually, I chose to go to high school in the big city, which was Montreal. My dad used to commute he drove back and forth. So actually I commuted with him like super early mornings and stuff like that, to go to high school. But I really wanted that school because it was the only one in the city that had a marching band. I was in the marching band and nerd for years playing the clarinet. And I played the trombone for a year. And then after that, you know sort of spent my 20s I think sort of struggling with am I going to be an artist? Can I be an artist? Or should I get a real job? You know, I did do a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music. Yeah, because when it was time for university, I thought I really like to do something I enjoy. I might spend three years enjoying myself and then need to become an accountant or something serious, but give it a go, you know? Yeah, and then just sort of bounce back and forth, did some contracts, then some admin work and then would be, you know, kind of happy with the lifestyle of neither. But it just kept pulling me back in I really was miserable when I was being an administrator even though I had some great jobs and lovely people. Have you know, and there was just a moment where I realized, like, I cry before I go to work every day at this very nice job. It's just such a nice job for somebody else. It's not for me, I can't do this. I'm only 26, whatever, to have given up. And so actually chance meeting with a musician I knew. And he said, We've just lost our singer. And we have a gig in Oman. And do you want to join our band and travel for four months? And I said, okay, and then said, Where's omen? While it's kind of next to Dubai, it was okay. But I never heard of it. So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, like when, and it was really different experience starting to travel then I mean, we had an app and there was no, YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was none of that kind of even the amount of information that you'd have was limited. It was people's blogs, and, you know, blurry photos and that kind of thing. So it was a relatively scary and endeavor to embark on. I think the thing that saved me is the four guys in the band that I went with, had all been there the year before. So they did have lots of first hand experience. But of course, coming from Canada and traveling to the Middle East for my first real big overseas adventure, let some preconceptions about how it's going to be and I thought, well, I'll just do four months, and then I'll go home. And then 16 years later. Still here. So your husband's musical as well. You guys played together? Where did you make the line? So I met him after that first contract. So actually, I did one conch. I did one more than he's done. So I joined here Monday. Oh, yes, we're totally keeping score, who's played more show? So I joined the band in January and somehow got asked to be the bandleader. I really feel it was by default, because everyone else in the band was French Canadian. And I was the only one who spoke English. And with my administrative background, I spoke good business English. So, you know, I would have the current bandleader coming to me and saying, Can you help me formulate this email? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't start it with Pedro. You know, it has to be a little more formal than that. So he kind of went, well, could you just do it? I was like, Okay, I guess so. So I certainly took on all the admin tasks, which also involves liaising with any of the agents or hotels that we were, you know, that we were dealing with, because these are five star properties, you know, the Grand Hyatt and Hilton and everything, like you needed to kind of be a little bit more on it than that it was the time. So we did the one gig. And then we went back to Montreal for this summer and made a couple of changes to the lineup, the guitars that we had was leaving. And so we went through about oh, my gosh, seven guitarists trying to find a good fit. And finally got Felix who was recommended by a friend of a friend. He was only 22. At the time, he lived in an even smaller town than the one I was from, like, 500 people. And, you know, 20,000 Cows was kind of where he was coming from. He'd never been on a plane. And so for him, it was an equally big adventure. And he, but he was kind of in a place in his life where he wasn't really happy and had just finished his musical education, you know, informally in college, and that, and he sort of same as me with, well, I'll do it for four months. And yeah, and then we got together pretty much right away. So that definitely helped us both feel like this was something that we wanted to stick with. And so yeah, so we've been together a long time. Oh, that's an awesome story. I love that. And isn't it just so typical in the music world? It's like, it's a friend of a friend or someone new this person or it's just the way it goes? Isn't it? Just this connection of people? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, we're very lucky. But that and it's also funny, too, that there's, I'm, you know, the more that I have, the longer that I am a musician, the more I'm amazed by stories of bands who have that longevity, you know, like bands like YouTube, where they have the same members forever. Because I know even in a couple, it can be really hard to have exactly the same vision for the music and the same vision for the timing of how you want things to go. You know, when we had mostly we play as a duo now, but But we spent most of our time together playing with larger groups. And there were lots of fantastic musicians we played with, who would say I'm tired of traveling, I want to go home and be with my other half, or we had someone leave to go to med school. And it was kind of doable, but you're an amazing keyboard player, he was okay. But I want to be a doctor. So, so to realize that not only does the music have to work, but where you are in your life at that time. It has to work like that for people could do that for 30 years. It is it's incredible, isn't it? When you break it down like that you think of all the things that could have changed or gone wrong, or like it's, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's still we actually liking each other and getting on like, right. I'm not saying that about you and your husband? I mean, I'm talking about you too. No, no, no, you can say it about us too. Yeah. Gosh. Adding up your misery causes in the shop, you've been dumped by text, then being slipped. You're wondering what's next, baby. Though life's looking great. You can choose not to decide. I have listened to some of your tracks online, you have got a powerhouse voice. I love your voice. It's I love a bit of built voice. It's so good. passion and energy. Yeah, so did you have like formal lessons for your voice? Or did you just sort of instinctively feel it out and work it out yourself? I've had very few, very few. So I went to university in jazz boys, but have had zero lessons. Before I started I had they went to Concordia, University of Montreal and one of the things I love about their program is they want it to be more inclusive. So unlike some of the other universities that really kind of only take you if you've been through the conservatory stream, or what have you, they just sort of said, if you want to play come audition, first, show us what you can do. And then we'll teach you all the back end, after you know, so. So I was kind of on the edge because I'd had quite a I had a fantastic teacher in high school, you know, but but wasn't quite there. So still needed to do more training, you know that you're training and theory and harmony and all of that to come. So they call that sort of like a zero level to get up to level one to be with everyone else. But but in terms of the singing, I did have contract wasn't really, it really wasn't much. There's only about two semesters of vocal lessons with Jerry Brown, who was their vocal jazz instructor. One of the things I'm really grateful to her for it is she she just gave me a lot of opportunity to get onstage, which I think I really I really needed at that time. As you can see, that's the part that I've hung on to like, gosh, don't ask me any harmony theory now that's long forgotten, but it's still performing. And, and then after that I did. I did a musical review from point and there was a really great vocal coach there as well. So she I mean, the coaching was quite specific to the songs for the show. But she was she came from a musical theater background. So that kind of helps with all that. Belting and being on stage and having to really, again, like project and in a very much like onstage performance way as opposed to recording or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it is so different, isn't it? It's yeah, two completely different things. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of the music that you do, I know, I've seen that you write your husband and yourself right together. And you do have this, but I think the way I can't remember how you worded it now on your website, but it was really clever. It's like you could take any style of song and turn it into your own basically, is that how you look at when you're, you're doing your comments. That wasn't how we started. But that's very much Where to now that we've seen too, just in general, I think I think YouTube has been great for for that for introducing the general audience to kind of the magic of reinterpreting you know, reinterpreting styles, so, especially groups like postmodern jukebox, and we're big fans of scary pockets who do funk covers of whatever, you know. So we've found in recent times, that's gotten a lot of traction for us. And it's also cool because when we spent a decade basically just playing pop music, and lots of songs that we love, and it was, you know, full on big songs, Sweet Child of Mine and Highway to Hell sometimes and all these kinds of things. And now we don't have to lose that repertoire because we can translate it. So we do funk version of sweet child of mine, we do a jazz version of, you know, you shook me all night long. And, and, and sort of, you know, all kinds of other things. And so it's a lot of fun for us, I find in that way, it's a more creative process than it used to be where we were just sort of the cover band who had to, as best as we could reproduce what was on the record. You know, that's what we kind of did for a long time trying to bring life to the album version, but but it was pretty much you know, in the box, and it's not so much now. Yeah, that is good. Because like, I don't, obviously, I don't know what the audiences are like in Dubai, I can only speak from my, my tiny little town, but my sister and I had a lot of experience singing in bands, my sister more than me, but, and I did a lot of covers as a soloist. And sometimes your audience just wants to hear the songs that they know, done in the way that they know. And it can be really challenging to get them past that, and to push them a little bit. So it sort of can be hard to know, like, unless your audience is ready for it can be really daunting to try and put in something else and even like putting in originals is like, you know, is that you can sort of relate to that very much very much. And, you know, the audiences in Dubai are high maintenance, I find that way. They're great. And they love live music. And we, I mean, we have a career as purely full time performing musicians, you know, we don't have other jobs we don't teach, we're so lucky. This is what we've been able to do for 16 years. But at the same time, I think that demands are such from us, the as you said, like if it's Hotel California, just play the solo, don't do anything else they want to sing along, maybe they know this solo, you know, they need to hear it as they know it. So there are some songs where we just kind of were like, we're not even gonna attempt that, that you guys just you need it the way you need it. So that's fine. But actually, it's been surprising that they've been as open as they, as they are to hearing different versions of things, we find there's very few opportunities where they're really open to hearing things that they don't know like in that sort of why we don't one of the reasons why we don't do more original music here. The other reason is we have two small children. We got like no time or brain space to write anything. But also there really isn't the opportunity for that you just and you know it's hard when you're playing and you see everyone's eyes kind of glazing over. Yes, I know that feels like you feel like I've got these people they go and really good and then you put in you think I'll take a chance now putting this out and then it's like dammit, I want to stop halfway through despite all the fire alarm. Oh, it's funny, isn't it it was the story that drew me in. Hell you were so inspired by the man with a Viking didn't know it was just you using views and trying to confuse So you mentioned that the two small children How old are your children? So we have two boys who is four and a half and Hendrix is two. Oh, I love it is a great night. Oh that's good. We figured we have to get away at least we're both your parents are musicians. Yeah. Do something a little little left to center it to each night. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be a shame if you did it. Right. So did they like they enjoy sort of hearing you guys playing the guitar or singing at home? You know what, it's funny actually, we don't do nearly enough playing at home. I think that that's one of the for us. One of the hard things about maybe gigging as much as we do you know, and I hate to say there's anything hard about it because I know we're very blessed but like we're we're tired during the Ha, we're good. So I know other people will say, Oh, you must just grab a guitar and sing along all the time. And I'm just, I'm just trying to keep it quiet. And I talk too much during the day, because I gotta go work tonight. You know, when we do, they love it, obviously, they're totally exposed, you know, there's instruments around, they can play what they want, they can sing a lot. We, during COVID, one of the things we did to sort of stay in touch with people is we started live streaming, it was new for us. But we were locked down here in Dubai. And like, when we had our lockdown, it was locked in a locked down, like we did not go outside of the apartment for 35 days, at one point, everything is very delivery oriented in Dubai, even before COVID. So it was quite easy. So you can still get, you know, your medication or groceries or whatever, it all came to the door. But so we were struggling with being trapped in the house at the time, I was four months pregnant and you know, being trapped together with your husband and your two year old. Boy, it was like, Okay, we were feeling really lonely. You know, so we thought, let's try live streaming. And it just got a great reaction. And we realized, actually, that we'd spent so long making music and traveling for people all over the world, but not are our families and our, our people at home because what we do go home for our one month of holiday. Most years. We're like we don't, we're on holiday, I know, I need a break. And I'm what we used to play in a band, it was always really loud music six days a week. And vocally, I needed a massage, you know, so I could do the next 11 months, that kind of thing. So, so those people just, they don't know, they don't know what we do. So our family and friends were just tuning in in droves, you know, and people also to have their own, you know, lockdown of whatever degree. So we found, especially people who are alone, so, you know, kind of in the moms category, but a lot of these are women who live alone, who were really, really isolated. So being able to come on and see us and and we started bringing Bo on and then it was like, forget it. Like we felt like we played a 55 minute, like opening act. So they didn't come on for the last five. You just have people chiming in, in the chat going to have the open arms. And other people like No, no, it hasn't come yet. Okay, like whatever, like we're just the warm up. But this was lovely. Yeah, it was great to see that, that he had fans. And it was a way to, for us to also share what we have, like it's so we kind of got released, you know, into the wild, maybe sooner than in Canada or the UK. So we were back out and doing activities. You know, before people there were. And so then actually, we sort of started this whole new feature of also just filming the activities that we did. So if we went we took to the or to the aquarium, or we went to the pizza or just rode the metro or whatever. We just filmed them. And it was just kind of, you know, life in Dubai, and he would come on and he would narrate the whole thing, which people love. So he tell him, you know, if we went to the petting zoo, and all that, so yeah, he was super into that. So it's a bit sad that now that we've gotten busier, we don't have the same kind of time to do that. Because I think it was a really special features special time that we ended up doing. Probably about 100, like full hour or hour, it became an hour and a half because an hour wasn't enough, you know. And we played games, we did like a quiz show, and we did all kinds of stuff. I'm disappointed because that would have been amazing. Our Australian friends did have trouble turning it because it was like 12 It was midnight or one in the morning for you know, maybe my nurse friend coming off shift at the hospital. So you catch a bit but that was awkward on is that oh, yeah, I could certainly relate to that. Like, you know, you're doing it for yourself because you need something to keep that creativity sort of going, you know, but yeah, like you said the the upside of that is people on the other end are getting so much out of it. So yeah, my news for Don Yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, it was good. And it's it was really nice to that over the course of the probably about 18 months that we ended up doing it You had to it was kind of starting at just about two, not even two and a half. And so that for me now has been such great memories to preserve to really see him growing. And you hear him singing, and he's singing more in tune as the time goes along, and then his baby, and I'm getting more and more pregnant, you know, and then his baby brothers, and then his baby brother is coming now and singing when we do you know, the two of them sing together and all that. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to share that with with people for whom it's that's also really meaningful to them. Yeah, it's a very small, but very important and significant audience. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. That is, it's a lovely little snapshot to have, isn't it of that period of time in your life yeah. How did you go singing when you were pregnant? Did you find you your breath was affected, like the diaphragm and all that from having this baby? Good times. For out of breath. And super out of breath. Like, both times, actually, I think I was more out of breath in my first trimester than I was at the end, you know. So that was, so when I was pregnant with Theo, we were actually still on our hotel are the very last of our hotel residency gigs. So it was here in Dubai. But it was still three or four nights a week, nightclub Smokies still jumping up and down that kind of thing. Still being expected to do shots with people like I just had to constantly be making excuses for why more I was telling people that I was pregnant, you know. So that would be jumping up and down still having to do, you know, Highway to Hell. And whenever that was tough, that was tough in that sense. And I think once you start showing and you're pregnant, it's, then people understand, oh, yeah, okay, well, you're going to take it easy, you're not going to jump around so much. So then just my feet were killing. But with deal I performed up until so this was 2017. So I performed up until two days before he was born. Because he came three weeks early. Yeah, I was it was supposed to be my last go. And, and even had my friend, our great friend who's the drummer at the time, and he said, you know, you better take it easy, because you don't want your water to break onstage. I think it's totally said as a joke. And it didn't, but it did 20 hours later, like it nearly did. And I thought oh my gosh, it just would have ruined that status. All the cables, like I could just imagine everything's covered in like goop, you know? Yeah, so I did my last show. And then he was born less than 48 hours later. Was it supposed to be like that, but anyhow, he had other plans. So that was, it was great. Like, actually, I love being pregnant and still singing, I felt really good. I felt really healthy. My feet were sore all the time. But But aside from that, the guys I worked with, were super supportive, you know, and, and people loved it, too. You know, we like we are played at Hard Rock Cafe at that time, which is a very, very much a family venue out here. And so you just have women coming up all the time and and remembering their pregnancies. And it just felt really wholesome, kind of like family, family values sort of thing. And that was definitely my plan being pregnant with Hendrix too, but you know, COVID can kind of hit when I was about four months pregnant. So So one of the things they did here in Dubai is in addition to the lockdown then even when we were, you know, kind of free to go out again, there were still really, really tight restrictions on entertainment for quite a long time. So. So even though I was ready, I was like, you know, we've been out of work, went back at it, even though I'm seven months pregnant now or whatever. I couldn't and so, so then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gigs that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it though physically like we did you you must have Like, good birth and everything like good after, or was it like really? I did, like I really, you know, I had great pregnancies and the actual deliveries were a little bit tough at times I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like convinced showing us on this Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage, everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said Hampshire, you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby, like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit. My feet were so swollen. And I thought, you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can. Like, I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just, I couldn't even put my feet in anything. And so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is, please, everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah. But, but I got there. And I really, we, you know, we played three sets. And I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna faint. Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea. I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches. So I couldn't sit. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want a stool. I'm like, no, no, no stool, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like cling on to the mic stand for the first few sets. But you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. So everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see as you know, we've been six months since we've been there. Because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually the third set, good. The third set was better and it was kind of okay, well, this is the power of music that what it can actually do for all of us. But oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Ah, I'll take my hat off to you. Honestly, that's that is amazing. Good on you. Was there ever any question in your mind that you weren't going to do it though? Did you ever think? No, I just No, I cannot do it was like that. I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. It's happening. And you know, I will say that, like six months of unemployment is a really good motivator for that, too. You're just like, yeah, no, no, we need to start having the ball of finances you know, ball financial ball rolling, like ASAP so, yeah, I'm gonna get on stage. Now when I look at it. I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're a crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Good. Take up drinking is Elton cloud syncing, trial fun and give thinking, wow. Get out and founded by Anna less than wrenching. You go up to your head. Do them. How long did were you away from the station before you came back? Four weeks, maybe four weeks? Five weeks? Yeah. It took it took longer. I will say at that time. But I felt good. You know, I felt like I was ready to be back. But of course the first time. I just couldn't imagine the legit sticks of having to leave him like it wasn't even necessarily that I was nervous to leave him with somebody else. Because of course, like, free COVID, right, he was kind of everyone had helped him and everybody, you know, we used to just like people cough, germs all of our babies all the time. So, you know, that was okay, I was comfortable with that. But I could barely figure out like how to get out of the house, in under four hours, you know, when we would have a doctor's appointment? Like I would literally be preparing for that. Hours and hours ahead of time and still be late all the time. You know, I think one of the the differences too is I was breastfeeding exclusively. The he didn't do any auto feeding for the first two months. So that too, I was just kind of like, how does that work? How are they gone? So actually, the first gig that I did with Theo was one that had come in, and it was in our neighborhood. So it was like 10 minutes walk from the house, it just happened. And I thought this one I can do, you know, I can live and it was one that had a kind of a strange pacing for the evening. So in the middle of the evening, there was like a one and a half hour break. And I thought I can do that. I'll just run home, like in my show clothes, and then feed my baby and then run back to the gig and then come back after. Yeah, so it just kind of worked out that that was one and then you know, quite quickly realizing I have to make a compromise somewhere like I can't just be exclusively breastfeeding. If I want to also be on stage I have to be able to be away for four gigs. So but that's a hard, a hard, you know, thing to work out in your head the first time whereas then by the second baby, I was more comfortable with the idea of bottle feeding and then it was easier to step away. Yeah. Oh, good on you. That is awesome. Like, I'm so impressed by that. I'm gonna put a round of applause sound effect through that. But I will tell you on that gig, which was a bit of a venue that anyway, I was very dark for a reason, let's just say and I was literally in the bathroom, like, you know, pumping milk at one point and watching a cockroach crawling across the wall. And I thought, Here I am making food for my baby like I'm trying like I have the hand sanitizer I'm trying to keep everything is getting there's just a cockroach crawling across in front of my eyes. I thought oh my god, what am I doing? But having said that, yeah, exactly. You know that they they survive like, I don't know, I think we get really scared that they're not going to survive without us. And then when they do you go. Oh, actually, this is great. What else can I do now? Let's meet Well, I did anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Sean. Stone, opposing forces. And predictable unknown. Is you the sound? Man, I'll see you on Monday. Was it important to you that you got back to your pre I want to say you pray baby life, because it's never the same, but holding the things that are important to you. You're performing you're singing? Was that like, the top of the list? This is me. I'm going to get back to this as soon as I can. Yeah, very much. I'm, you know, I'm a relatively old mum, as they you know, as they go. So, I was 39 when I had the Oh 42 When When I had Hendrix, and one of the reasons that I hadn't started a family any earlier was that I was the bandleader like I, and the dynamic I think in the band because Felix, the musical director, and I was kind of all the admin bandleader side of things, we were very much Mom and Pop, you know, in kind of the structure of whoever we worked with. So we'd work with basically like five to seven piece bands. And for the most part, like, I felt like those people were my kids, you know, kind of dealing with the feelings and drama and scheduling and making sure everybody had clean clothes and you know, that kind of thing. Because also too, when you're traveling that as a whole other aspect of you know, there are a whole other host of issues that come up where you're kind of like living with people and they're living away from home and all of this so sometimes it was a lot to handle and I thought there's no way I could have a real baby that I need to take care of where this band is my baby, you know, and I also for myself, I If I didn't want to not be able to do everything that I was doing, and, and I knew having a baby would change my life, and I knew that there would be compromises that had to be made, and I was just not in any way ready for that. So, for that reason, too, it was really important to me to perform the whole time I was pregnant, you know, kind of up until the bitter end, it was like, I'm still, I'm still doing everything that I could do, you know, with the exception of bending to plug in cables, to a point where I just cannot get down there. I and so then after baby, it was like, Yeah, I'm back, I'm back. Nothing has changed, you know, of course, everything has changed. But that I really kind of had like a death grip, I think on that element of my identity. And that is, the thing that I think I struggle with most really, is I still get really frustrated that I'm not able to do all the things that I used to be able to do, there was a moment where I was thinking maybe that I would have to even give all this up just because of so unhappy with how that all had gone, it kind of coincided with just sort of what happened in the market here in Dubai, you know, for such a long time, Felix and I had been leading a band. And then some of the people we worked with, left the band because they wanted to move on. And also just in the market, the budgets just got a lot smaller. So all of a sudden, there weren't gigs for five or six people, it was no Oh, to Navy, we can stretch to three. And so I was left feeling. And I know it's an all makes sense, but you know, really feeling that I took my hands like off the crank to have a baby. And it all fell apart. Just like I knew it would, you know, and and it was. And so I felt like a lot of that was my fault. Like, we would have still had van and we would have still had gigs, we would have still been just as like, busy and happy had I not done this, you know. And so that took me a while to get over and to sort of you know, it's not all about me. Like there were also other factors at work just like the economy, that's not all my fault. Yeah, yeah, how you would feel like that, yeah, it's very high. And it's having to kind of work my head around to, to appreciate and, and adapted to what we do now. So. So that was a thing kind of as things shrunk, you know, we sort of went six, five, all the way down to it just being feeling SCI. And and then the gigs changed, you know, and COVID was a big part of that, too, that we've, you know, we were lucky enough for most of the last two and a half years to actually have that live entertainment has been allowed, there was about 10 months where it was, you know, kind of band completely. But because Felix and I were now a small unit, we were more affordable. And because we also moved away from playing the pop music, the B student big band. And instead, we were doing these, like, Jazzy, you know, covers but still have pop music. We found that there were a lot of and also to one of the rules that they only brought back fairly recently is that there was no dancing allowed anymore, because they didn't want people kind of like being close together mingling. So restaurants were allowed and restaurants could have music with the tables had to have social distancing, you know, and all of that. But then actually, we found ourselves really well positioned because we could just set up husband and wife like in a little corner and play these songs that would still have people sort of dancing in their seat, you know, by not getting up it was all at a quieter value. It was actually really popular, you know, and the other things that came with being in a restaurant like gigs that start at 730 I want to be in bed before midnight. Definitely. Certainly, because you know, I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning. No, and there's none of that, you know, slip until all hours so. So I've worked my way around to really appreciate it but it mentally it's there are times there has been a really hard slog you know, and it's probably been about three years of lots of talking to myself and re The assessing if I'm happy with where things are and where they're going, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not to say that there were, you know, not moments of serious self doubt. And, and us really questioning things, you know, even even at the very beginning of COVID, where they were closing the airports, right, you know, and, and gosh, our prime minister on TV, say Canadians come home, that was exactly what he said. So, of course, our parents are like, get on a plane and come and, and, you know, and we're just going well, do we, though, but we have we live here, you know what I mean, you have an apartment full of stuff. It's not just, it's not like we're on a holiday, you know. So that was a hard decision to sit tight and say, Okay, we're going to stay here. And staying in a place where, you know, there's no, kind of like social safety net for foreigners here. So there's no employment insurance, there's no child, like, kind of welfare thinks that you're on your own. So we had to just try to, you know, tighten our belts manage our savings to make them last as long as they, as they could, you know, borrow money when we had to, to get through it. And of course, the whole time, you're thinking like, is this it? Is this just the end? Because that was one of the things that was so hard about COVID to it was, maybe this is the end forever? Have in person performances, like the repairs were like, is this? Is it just all gone now? And if so, what are we hanging on for like, then we need to be pivoting and learning to be accountants, like, this is what has to happen. And so if they're, there have had so many long periods of just not knowing what the hell we're doing and what the hell's going on. Now, of course, in hindsight, like we see, okay, no, we were, we we made the right call to is to stick it out. And stay here, I think, actually, one of the big factors that, you know, factored into a stain was that I was pregnant. Because it was also I don't have a doctor in Canada, you know, my doctor is here, the quality of care is, is excellent here, and it was still really accessible, you know, whereas in Canada, they kind of like, locked everything down. And my sister was pregnant at the same time. So we really, so I have a nephew who's only three months older than Hendrix. So we really were kind of, you know, compare and contrast, like through the whole thing. And she was having tele health visits, and I'm like, no, no, I still go in for my, you know, twice a month ultrasound. Like, I'm still allowed to do that. So you know, I think that live streaming was really great to show us that we have a another way of, of reaching people. But I feel like it's not over, I feel sort of that, like our deciding is not over, you know, we really feel like we're here. We're here for the immediate future. But also, I personally know that I'm left with a lot of anxiety and kind of, like a form of, you know, PTSD, almost just the stress of the insecurity of the last two years is, is something that I really struggled to shake, to, to feel secure. Again, in as secure as you ever feel when you're a musician. I mean, I've spent the last 16 years of life on contracts and having like, zero, real financial security, you know, as many artists, you know, that's our life. Right. But this has added a whole like other layer to it, which is kind of permanently stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And that's thing. It's so it's so unknown, because it's like, I know what you mean, like, it's winter, next gig winds, you know, in normal times, but then it's like, Will there ever be gigs? Like, it totally changes the whole way? That you think about the whole thing, so yeah, I can I can empathize with you there because that's, yeah, and that's thing. It's COVID Still ticking along like things are still happening. And yeah, we just we have no idea where it's going and what's going to happen and yeah, it's full on in it's been a really, it's been a crazy time to be alive. You know what I mean? Like it's it is one of those hopefully once in a lifetime occurrences, you know, like a war like, something like that, that this is is you know, the thing we'll talk to our grandkids about, basically. Yeah, and, and, um, yeah, I'm still not sure how we're the lasting changes, you know, that this This will make like, one of the things that I was sort of surprised at is how quickly kind of the online side of things really like online performances really dissipated once in person performances were a thing again. Which is great, because I mean, hey, we're like, that's our job is to be in person performers were in the room. But, and in a way, it's fantastic. Because it thinks that it shows me that there's nothing that can replace being in the room with the people making the music, you know, it's just, you can't put that on a record, you can, you know, put that on on a screen, it just you have to be there. So good for us. Because that means people still want to see us in person, but also to is kind of stressful, because it's like, well, then, is there ever really a plan B for for us? Or is it always because certainly when we were live streaming, we made a little bit of money, but it was, you know, dribs and drabs, it was not like enough to sustain us so. So that's kind of where I am now. It's just to feel that over the long term, not sure how much longer we'll be able to kind of get away with doing what we're doing, you know, because if ever to the market changes again, and we're now not so well positioned for what people want, then that's tough. So I mean, this is like a story of all you know, performance artists also sample if you lead with me, me, me love you you know, that I find it Oh, so hard to let go. Change my mind when you say in your sweet baby one of the topics I really like to talk to guests on the show is about mom guilt. And I put I put it in air quotes because I recorded an episode with an artist this morning who had to Google what it meant because she literally did not experience it didn't know what it was. And I thought that was awesome. That's the first person I've met that hasn't known. So I'm really that was awesome. So that just goes to show the broad range of experiences that we have with this thing. What's your thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm the polar opposite of the poster child for Mom You're getting both ends of the spectrum today. Yeah, yeah, no, mom. Definitely. I mean, I have all kinds of, you know, anguish about things. You know, I have like, bandleader guilt and all this kind of things, too. So it's just another one that I add to my my collection. The mom guilt. Yeah. Where does it hurt? Oh, my gosh. It's, you know, I was listening to to yesterday, I was listening to the podcast you done with Ms. Coleman. And she was talking about it really for her seems to revolve around time. And I think that's, that's absolutely yet you know, feeling that that I'm not giving my boys enough time or feeling that I'm not giving them quality time. That one is, you know, certainly is trouble. I see. So I kind of the logistics of it. Right? You know that our gigs do finish even getting home at midnight, but you know, you're not to bed for 130 or whatever. So when someone comes because they've wet the bed and then the other ones crying the knees. So you know, I mean, there's lots of nights where we're still, you know, maybe up three or four times. So then starting the day at seven, it's like okay, well we've had like five broken hours of sleep, you know, and my husband and I share duties and he's up, you know, with as well. But still we both just find really, really tired in the mornings a lot and That's hard. So then I think I see too that with Hendrix, I don't spend the same time there's a lot more TV. A lot more TV. Do it would be like 12 minutes, one little episode, you know that we're trying to get off and we're working on colors and stuff to with Hendrix, I'm like, Dude, how do you not know any of your colors? Like how do you not know these animals? Right, because no one has taught us that that was the kind of thing with do that I would sit and I would do. And now with two of them, I'm just kind of like, oh, the TV's just gonna have to teach you something today, because I don't go to the realities. The reality but I feel guilty about it, you know, I feel guilty that I'm not kind of there for my second one, in the same way that I was for the, you know, for the first child. And, and it's, it's hard. When we get busy with work, you know, we're lucky to have maybe six or seven gigs a week, regularly, you know. So sometimes we'll only have one night off. And that's hard, where I'm giving them their bath and putting them to bed once a week. And just the feeling that like there's another woman who I love and trust, but somebody else does this all the time, who gives you nighttime cuddles. So those periods are hard, but they're also kind of necessary, sort of the reality here, like, in general, there are summer season, which is about five months long. workwise is quite quiet, you know, there's less tourists, a lot of the families that are here, if they can, they, they'll take their holiday, so they might be gone back to Australia or Canada or UK wherever for two, perhaps two months. So then they're not here eating in restaurants and going out. So we do have a lot less gigs in summer than we do in the over the winter period. And that's hard to the the feeling that we have to take all the work that we can get, you know, when it's offered. I don't find that we have a lot of balance, like either summer, and we're kind of, you know, to in our fingernails a bit going, Okay, hope we can we make it by the end of the month, or it's winter. And we're just like, you know, out every night kind of thing, just just working all the time not feeling dizzy the kids? And if so, and then I think it translates into other ways, right? You know, maybe there's too many trips to McDonald's or too many little presents, or little, you know, ice cream or whatever, because it's like, my, I feel like I don't see you enough. So I just want to just want to treat you. And there are other options. You know, like here in Dubai, there's quite a nanny culture, they don't really do babysitters, and of course, because all of us, like kind of the entire population are away from our families, right? You know, like, everyone has come from all over the world to work here. So you don't have sisters and aunts and uncles and brothers who can watch the kids, you know, so you have a nanny, and they're with you, all the time. And for many people, it's not our situation, but many people have many live with them that and we often have people saying that, but if you had your nanny live with you, she would get up in the morning with the kids and you know, hey, we think about it, but also to the Trade Office, then then I do lose that part, I do lose that access to my, my kids. And you know, there's a part of me, which feels like, if certainly if we had kids in Canada, we'd be doing it all on our own, you know, we would be up and we would be tired. And we would be just like everybody else, you know, and so trying to still may have that kind of Canadian life, but at the same time, the reality is like, I get to bed at two o'clock in the morning when I'm tired when I wake up at 630 So there's no escaping. Yeah, but that's the thing that I like. I haven't heard you say once in this, even though there's always stuff I mean, obviously thinking about, you know, the how the market is gonna go but you're not saying that I don't want to do this anymore. Because of, you know, the sacrifices, the compromises that I might be making with my children. You know what I mean? Like it's, this is what is important to you at the end of the day, you know, this is this is you This is in in your heart and soul and yeah, I hope I'm getting Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I quite recently have asked myself, you know, if this is if this is right for if this is right for me, if this is right for us, and it's sort of that feeling of a lack of balance, you know, I would like to feel more balanced and and I mean, also to that logistically, the reality of it is just financially, it makes more sense for the two of us to be going out and gigging. And for us to then hire a nanny than for me to stay home. But that's not the whole story, too. When I see things like, Oh, my two year old doesn't know his car, you know? And I'm like, well, maybe I need to be here, and be teaching him those things. And, and is that what's right for us now? And also to in the sense that, you know, we think someday we'll move back to Canada, probably, you know, in the next five years. And we know, we can't do this, when we're there. So there's also that to have, do we need to be putting in place, whatever kind of work, things need to happen, you know, does it obviously involve some kind of retraining or something? And is that what I should be spending my time doing now? So that we're kind of ready for the next step. But, you know, as he said, it's kind of the, it has always pulled me back in like, I can't imagine not putting on the makeup and doing the hair and going out and, and making music with Felix, you know, it's the the reason that we're that we're together. You know, he'll he'll occasionally have other gigs with other people. And as much as I love it, and I'm happy for him. And he needs more variety than I do. Like, I'm like, No, I'm happy to just work with you to know exactly what I'm doing to have someone who I rely on 100% I don't need any kind of instability. In my life. I'm good. I got it. Whereas he'll go, he's happy to jam and happy to take on new projects and learn new things like No, no, I don't have any of that desire. But when he does things, I'm happy for him. But also there's part of me that, like, it really doesn't like that, you know, that he's gone off and is having a life without? Yeah, I mean, we literally in 16 years, like we pretty much, you know, kind of spent every minute together for that time. So yeah, it's if for better, it's far better for us. You know, it really it really is. No longer gonna backtrack, just exam that you chose wrong. Now you go back and get over it Yeah, was gonna ask you what you've got coming out. But I know, I've I don't know how to ask that. Because you've got gigs all the time, haven't you? Like? Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, because I had a look at your page of all your shows. It's like, oh, my gosh, you like that. And then, so like, it's just, it just flows on and on and on. Like you said, you have this portion of the year where it's full on full on full on, and then it's the little break time. So yeah, you just sort of ride the waves. And, yeah, it's like, you know, we describe it as a marathon out here. Right? You know, because it doesn't ever really stop. And which is great. Is you know, as you said, like it does have high season and low season to it. So, for us coming up we're getting into this season probably won't start really full on until October. Which is okay, because Theo is starting school in September. So he's never been to nursery, he was kind of about to go to nursery and then it was COVID. So then he stayed home for that two years with us. Which is a whole other like, Mom, thing my sister laughs at me, she's really okay with sending her eldest to school and I just choked all the time. I'm like, buying, you know, glue sticks and googly eyes, like crying in the grocery store. filling his school list. I, you know, he needs a uniform and I'm kind of dreading going to the store. I just don't I can't like deal with seeing him in that little uniform for the first time. So yeah. So I think actually, it'll be okay that he, you know, we'll start that and we're not super busy yet. So we'll have time to kind of transition him into that and transition us because he has to get up even earlier for us to drive him to school. You know, Oh, it's so I'm nervous about it. Because I think like, already, I'm tired. And already, it's not amazing for me, you know? How is that going to be when now we have to be up even earlier five days a week. And then when I have more gigs, how's it all gonna work? So I'm, I am really nervous about this fall season, coming in and figuring that we will just have to figure it out, as you know, as it goes along. But for us, musically, we have just started our first gig in like, four years with a full band. So that's been exciting for us to actually have, you know, bass, drums and keys again, because most of the time, and although we say most of the time as a duo, Felix is the band. So he is a guitarist, but he does all the drum programming, we work the drum machine that he plays Live, and then he does bass loops and guitar loops on top of that, and then he's doing back vocals, and he's saying the vocals, I'm just singing. I'm playing a little bit tambourine here and there. And then doing all though, like, admin stuff on whatever social media time. Yes, I do. That's all me. But, but so to have a full band is musically is really exciting again, logistically is difficult. It's kind of like, oh, yeah, and people's scheduling and issues and all this. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so it's great that we're working on that working in a new venue to so getting adjusted to, what did they want? What does the audience want? What do we think is going to work? We've just been asked to perhaps put together a gypsy jazz trio, which would be new for us, we do a little bit of gypsy jazz, but not like full on things. So trying to see if that's something that we can that we can manage. And aside from that, yeah, just mostly have work either as a duo or as a trio. We do have a few different keyboard players that we that we work with. And yeah, most of most of our gigs are restaurant or kind of restaurant lounge, this new full band one is the first one that we seen a long time where people really there's sort of like a dance floor space for them, you know. So that too, has meant Okay, well, we kind of need to rework and bring back in some of that repertoire that we haven't really bothered with for last few years because they weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll just lead up by Christmas. Usually our week of Christmas is absolutely nuts been rammed, which is I just find crazy challenging. It's with two kids. So also trying to find time to steal like, create the magic of Christmas and, and it's Theo's birthday, he's a Christmas baby. So he's also kind of like finding a way to make him also birthday, maybe birthday party and, and playing, you know, Christmas Eve, usually we'll do two gigs. And Christmas day, we'll do two gigs. And every night of the week and everything. So it is, it's a tough, it's a tough time of year for me. I mean, you want to talk mom gills is kind of astronomical and have our nanny, you know, reading the Christmas story, and I really struggled with that this last year, you know, that we, we move Christmas as we need to, you know, like we celebrated on the day that we don't have to get up and go to a gig. So we did it on the 26th this year, but that still meant that on Christmas night, like she's putting out cookies for Santa and getting them in their pajamas. And I was just kind of all over the place that night. Like it was to the point where Felix even said to me, he said, you know, do we cancel that gig like you're this upset, you know, in the weeks leading up to it that you're not that you're not going to be able to be there and you know, it's a tough call right like these well paid holiday gigs you know, they're not at our usual rate. They're better than the usual rate and, and having to and maybe it'll be different every year. You know, maybe I won't make the same choice this year as to am I okay with her just sending photos of look, they're in their Christmas jammies. I'm sort of toggling between sets and then going okay, here we go, you know, celebrating Christmas with other people who are there with their families also too, which is just like that. You know, really hard on my heart and, and I, you know, I think maybe in later years it if we're still kicking around and doing this, it will be the kind of thing where maybe they can come and be with us, you know, on the on those occasions just be at those games. But right now there's just so little that, you know, and their bedtime is still early and all of that. So it's, it's, I know that it's better for them to be at home where they're well taken care of and she's doing as much of the tradition is as I have, like, left instructions were hard to do. But, but it's hard like Felix and I both are moms or elementary school teachers. So they had summers off, they had two weeks off at Christmas. So we both kind of have these very strong like holiday traditions of the families always did this and that and Christmas Eve was this kind of celebrating and then Christmas Day was that kind of celebrating. And for us we're just absent, you know, on those times. So find hope Yeah, find the holidays hard. But you know, in the other sense like we're still financially recovering from COVID so it's work work work, work, work work, work much as we can Yeah, you just sort of do what you can at the time that you make the decisions as you go and like you said next year you might feel different and then a year after you might feel different so it's like Yeah, going with what you need at the time. Yeah. And trying not to feel guilty I really love talking to you today. It's it's such a routine energy and I like have you got videos on YouTube where we can watch you perform, I want to watch you perform like your vibe is so welcoming and energizing is like awesome to have a say on stage. You know what I mean? What if you do want to see the videos with feel of which honestly, I swear there's like at full length shows there but they're on our Facebook page. So you can feel free to like scroll through the years. Seriously, just check the last five minutes because that's the start. You can skip ahead. It's fine. We're used to everyone else like tuning out and then coming back five minutes to the hour. I'm University thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum now tomorrow we live saw so simple if you lead with me love you used to be the one always man trying struggling still good seem so sad with you maybe. Monroe I love to also sample if you lead with me love me for me design but love you You know that I find it oh so hard to let go change when you say in your sweet baby start let's let them roll while we while we live in today in some some so simple if you learn to be with me they're gonna love you ever decide that you're gonna love you

The Heart Songs Podcast Series To celebrate the launch of my debut album Heart Songs, I have put together a podcast series where I chat about each track on the album, the inspiration, where it came from, the production or anything else I feel like sharing! The Art of Being a Mum Podcast CLICK HERE

Vian Lin Australian pianist and influencer S2 Ep33 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Vian Lin is a pianist, educator, businesswoman and influencer based in Brisbane QLD, and a mum of 4 children. Vian was born in Shanghai China and lived in Paris before arriving in Brisbane in 2002 to pursue her music studies. Vian started her piano journey at Shanghai Conservatory of Music when she was just 3 years old. She went on to win the Australian Yamaha Piano Competition at the age of 17 and performed at the Sydney Opera House. That same year Vian received a scholarship from University of Queensland, and went on to tour more than 10 countries, and performed a piano solo with her own piece – “Two Cities” at the 2014 G20 Summit in Brisbane. In the past decade, Vian has worked with lots of world class artists and musicians, including Dami Im, the Queensland and Sydney Symphony Orchestras, Yo-Yo Ma, and so many more. Vian has performed for Queensland Performing Arts Centre Brisbane Festival and other major festivals in Australia, and around the world. In 2011, Vian created Harmonie Music Centre and Harmonie International and started her new business chapter with a group of young Australian musicians who share the same goals. Vian is now the director and owner of these businesses. Over the past 11 years, Harmonie has brought household names from China, Japan, Korea, Hungary and Croatia, in over 300 performances to over 200,000 patrons in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and Auckland. Her goal is to share Asian culture with every resident in Australia and all over the world. Vian is also an educator who has students over all over the world. Through her social media handle 'Not Just a Pianist' Vian shares her love of music, collaborates with fashions houses such as Burberry and seeks to change long held stereotypes about China and pianists. Vian facebook / Instagram / youtube Podcast - instagram / website Vian’s music is used throughout this episode with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bowl antic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for your company. Today my guest is vn Lin. Vn is a pianist, educator, businesswoman and influencer based in Brisbane, Queensland, and a mum of four children, then was born in Shanghai, China, and lived in Paris before arriving in Brisbane in 2002. To pursue her musical studies. Vn started her piano journey at Shanghai Conservatory of Music when she was just three years old. She went on to win the Australian Yamaha piano competition at the age of 17 and performed at the Sydney Opera House. That same year vn received a scholarship from the University of Queensland, and went on to tour more than 10 countries and performed a piano solo with our own piece two cities at the 2014 G 20. Summit held in Brisbane. In the past decade, vn has worked with lots of world class artists and musicians, including Dami in the Queensland and Sydney Symphony orchestras, Yo Yo Ma, and so many more. In 2011 vn created harmony Music Center, and how many international and started her new business chapter with a group of other young Australian musicians who shared the same goals. The end is now the director and owner of both these businesses. Over the past 11 years harmony has bought household names from China, Japan, Korea, Hungary and Croatia to Australia in over 300 performances and to over 200,000 patrons in Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Brisbane, Perth and in Auckland, New Zealand. Her goal is to share Asian culture with every resident in Australia and all over the world. Vn is also an educator, and she has students from all across the world. Through her social media handle, not just a pianist vn shares her love of music collaborates with fashion houses such as Burberry and seeks to change long held stereotypes about China and pianists. I hope you enjoy our chat. Welcome, VN, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's my pleasure. I really like your Instagram accounts. Yes, it's quite inspiring. That's great to hear. Thank you. So you're up in Brisbane? Yes, I am. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Must be nice and warm up there this time here. And this is Clay warm today. Yes. So on your social media is your handle is not just a pianist. So can you tell me how you came up with that? And what are the things that you do in addition to play? Obviously, piano is this my career? And but, you know, I was thinking I should actually label myself not just the pianist because I'm also a mom, and also influenced. And also, you know, I'm still studying lots of things. So that's why I came up with some idea that I'm not just the pianist. Yeah. So that's cool. And it sort of makes people intrigued and sort of wonder, what are the things that you do? So that's really cool. Yeah, yeah. So tell me how did you get into playing the piano if you've been playing for a long time? Yeah, I've been playing for already, I think 35 years. I have to say, yes. 35 people are known. I've been playing for years. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So you started when you're quite young. I started when I was three. So it was like many many, many years ago and I've been playing and I was studying You know at the Conservatorium University of Queensland and I've been traveling from Australia to Austria and many different countries and you know, sharing music and learning from this person to the other. So music is basically the blood, you know? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So did you grew up in a family that that played music as well. Surprisingly, actually, my dad is a businessman, and my mom is an author. So if and I don't have any family influence, but my mom is very, very supportive. When I was young, I remember because, you know, when you were young, you have no idea why you need to learn the music. So I always wanted to quit. And I always wanted to do something silly, but my mom always support me. And you know, call me back to the music and piano lesson and stuff. So yeah. So it's good that she did. Isn't it kept you going? Yeah, yeah. So did you grow up in Australia or we born overseas? I came here in the year of 2000. So that was 22 years ago, I believe. And I think I came here. even earlier than that, maybe 2018 Just for the exchange program as music students, so from China, so I've been in Brisbane. Quite a few years already. Yeah. And whereabouts in China. Are you from? Shanghai? Oh, yeah. That's a name that most people will recognize that. Yeah, that's right yeah. Tell us about your family. You have some children. I have four children. Yeah, I got Doremi. Far. You're not going to complete the scale. Hey, yeah, but that's already a lot. I come anymore. That's it. Yeah. So how What's the age range of view up children? Oh, my youngest just turned one. Oh, wow. And my oldest is 27. In April. So I basically had four children in five years. Well, already. Yeah. Yeah. And guess what? I didn't start my performance as well. So I was basically, you know, giving birth and having babies in a plane and he's fine. Oh, wow. So was obviously like, important to you to keep keep playing your music. You weren't going to stop that for anything. I think it's very difficult to you know, like, not stop. I mean, it's very difficult for women. I think parenting and pregnancy is very, such a big challenge. I have to say, it's a biggest challenge in my life, but I still wanted to do music. So this drives me to see balance. You know, being a mom and being a pianist, I have to say, so did you have, like some support, like family support? Or, you know, someone to help out? You know, with the practicalities of looking after the kids while you're able to perform? Um, yes, I do. I do. I do. But just during the pregnancy, it wasn't that pleasant because, you know, my third and fourth child, they are quite young, and they they around the COVID period. My first child is a call the baby basically. So no one help you. We don't have any any parents. We don't have anybody. You just have to rely on yourself and your family just to get through this. Yeah. Oh, good on you. Yeah, made it. Yeah. Congratulations. So do you do write your own music? As well as playing other people? I do write my own music on the piano. Yes, I do. Yeah. Great. I was gonna ask whether Have you noticed after you've had the children that you might have sort of, are you influenced by the kids like as being becoming a mother changed the way you write? Just in music, particularly before I become a mom, my music is always driven and I always wanted to challenge the speed and to showing off how fast I can play. Giving birth and having your child understand life is not about speed. It's about how relaxed you can be to handle all This scenario, so, email me so you can hear all this settled for flow. So I have changed a lot because of this parenting thing I have to say, Hmm, that's very interesting. Yeah, like that. So it kind of helps you helps you to slow down as well. And keep Yes. If you're sort of in that, that mood. Yeah. So in addition to doing your piano, you you do your influencing you do some modeling as well. Can you tell us about that? I started to do lots of collaborations with it was different brands from 2021. Um, before that, I do perform a lot and you know, friends and different brands, they didn't really, you know, push me to label as an influencer, because I think I was mainly focusing on the performance, then COVID hits. So obviously, your performance, opportunity or time everything else very, very limited, right? So as to think maybe I should do something different. So I start to do YouTube videos kind of became a YouTuber. Also, Instagram and Facebook. Plus, there is some very new Chinese channel called the Red Book. So I am professional Korea, music and also parenting. So I started to have more fans and audiences, then I start to do collaborations with different brands. So that must be fun, like getting to, to wear different clothes. And I've noticed in the campaign you did for Westfield, that you've got your family involved as well. Yes, that's right. We did a campaign was February. And it was kind of fun, because I get to choose the color combinations and my hair and everything. I really liked those kinds of things. Because I think I'm a I'm a canvas, which is very arty, you know, like how I want it to be creative. So I really enjoyed doing what I love. I have to say, this is really a blessing. Yeah. And it's good to be able to step away from the piano too. And show maybe a different side of your creativity because it can be really, yeah, yeah. And that everyone you did like having your hair in that the two little buttons and the bra was written was just very eye catching. Looks awesome. Thank you for your feedback. I love it, too. I recently had a hair cut so I can't go that up anymore. But they will grow to low bars boss who knows? Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I was I had a look at your YouTube, you've got some really fun things on YouTube, like you do the unboxing of your products. That the music side of things, which is really cool. Like, you actually explain the stories behind particular songs sort of educate, as well. Yeah, so you obviously enjoy sharing your knowledge that you have about music as well. Yeah, yeah. And also a fun one was when your husband did you make up that was a good one. Yeah, I have to say that. I think being America. But you know what? I'm so curious. If you look at all those top beauty cosmetic brands, you know, in that in nowadays, you know, all the top makeup artists, they're all male. You're interested. And you know, for this gender thing. Male nowadays they were makeups huh? Yeah, they can kiss and they are so conscious about how they look and how they can improve their appearance and stuff. So yeah, it's interesting so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. has been having good had a good go. I didn't think he did a very bad job actually didn't do that. Very honest, because I like you very much. So it wasn't a good well, yeah, but you got to have fun. Don't Yeah, you've got to you got to have fun in life. Yeah, absolutely. Do your children play music as well? So actually my oldest daughter harmony, she's doing four instruments. Oh, well, he is doing three instruments. So they, they, they are lucky because they born in a musical family, you know, and I guess they're influenced by what we're doing. Because we also have our education institute, which operates and actually have music education, sort of program and stuff. So they basically when they were just six months, they start to grab, you know, triangle, bongo drums and anything you can think about. So they they love music. Yeah, absolutely. And do they enjoy watching you play or hearing you play? Yeah, especially how many because every time I go to a concert, she, she, she did attend. And I think for the reason why she even became my special guests. So she played the cello and we collaborate one song from the north cello exam syllabus, and I really enjoy it, you know, the opportunity to share the stage, not with five musicians, but also with fellow musicians, such as my daughter, this is not only the proud mom moment, it's just the moment that you understand. I am giving my child you know, a musically environment. And she enjoys it, and she's able to stand up and share the stage because I think at such a young age and then standing up on stage to play in front of so many people. It is a very frightening, you know, sort of experience. Absolutely. Yes. Because, you know, even even when I was 17, I came to a piano competition, I can tell that I was so shaky, and I was so nervous, you know, but what I saw my daughter's she's okay, actually, she's only six that time. So I'm so proud. I have to say, oh, yeah, absolutely. I can completely relate to that. Do you think though, because maybe because you've made music, such a normal thing in your life, and she's probably seen you perform. So she thinks it's not scary. It's not not that it's not a big deal. Like she understands that it's important, but it's sort of normalized it a bit for that. And she's sad for me to say. Yeah, because for me on the stage, she knows that our mommy is doing this when I'm going to do something similar to what my mom does. So she, Ellie she has got like, some like security, you know, font there. So she does feel like okay, I can do it. So even if she can't do perfectly it doesn't matter, right? Yeah, absolutely. That's I think that's a wonderful gift to be able to pass on to children that's really lovely. One thing I love to talk to my guests about is the concept of mum guilt. So this idea that mums should just be mums and then if you do anything else apart from being a mum, you should you should feel bad about it or that you know, society makes you feel bad about it. How do you feel about mongoose? I have to say I'm I'm a selfish I'm how to say it. I love my children, right? And I go for it. That's a lot of workload. You can you can't you can't imagine how much you have to do. But for example, now it is the cola period. I don't know about other city but but in particularly in Queensland. It's getting worse. So every bit every day there will be like an increased amount of ls 10,000 cases Imagine that. And if you any group chat, you will notice all the months or so panic, they will be like, I'm not going to send my kids to childcare. I'm not gonna write and this and that. But what I did, but I'm not saying that I'm putting my kids into risk, because they are in a very good school, which I attended when I was young, you know, and all of my four children, two of them are in primary school, one is seeing how to have the IERC, which is the Early Learning Center. So what I did is, every morning, I do send them to there. All right, I trust the teacher, I trust the facility will be able to give my child a healthy and safe environment. All right, because every, every institution, they have a call of a safe plan. So but you know, because some moms are so panicked, they don't believe they don't transmit So, but I'm the one who may be a bit selfish that I trust the institution. And I decided to leave my kids there. Because if they go the whole day, I'll be able to work. Hmm, do my own thing. All right. This is one thing. The other thing is, no matter what every week, I need to do do my yoga. Is this my relaxation moment? So if you want to sacrifice, I'm not going to sacrifice. If my daughter says that, Oh, Mommy, can you do this for me? I will say no, no, I so you can do that with Melody, or you can do that with you know, there are many people in our family. We are big family, you can do that with this or that I gave her options. But the option is not me. Because I told her mommy needs mommy's can. Yeah, yeah, I guess I'm very different. Especially in Asian culture. Because the Asian culture, I think, especially my mom's generation, family, kids, parenting is always the first priority. You never think about yourself. You just have to give everything to your family is a culture you know, huh? Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. But it's good that, like, you've recognized that you need particular things in your life, so that you feel good. You know, it's not all about pleasing everyone else all the time. Or maybe you've already passed to that stage because I'm, I'm turning 36 This year, so I don't feel like I wanted to please everybody anymore. Do you get what I'm saying? I do. Yeah. I always wanted to do my best. I want to show maybe my in laws how good I am in i and show my friends or show my kids. Kids. You know, Friends, Mom, you know, like how good I am stuff. I don't want to do that anymore. I just want to be happy. Yeah, that is so. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. The other a few weeks ago, I had a chat with an author. And she said, It's like when you get to 40 You just think I just don't care about any of that other rubbish anymore. Like you just you get over the fact of, you know, comparison and judgment of other people. And like you said, you just want to be happy and yeah, I think that there's something that comes with with age, you sort of get this perspective of what's important in your life maybe. Yeah, absolutely. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, I was when you had two children, how did the identity of yourself change? Did you sort of feel that that was challenged at all becoming a mother did you feel like you were losing part of yourself or if I look back, all of my, you know, for children and they gave birth and everything, I think that pregnancy is the most difficult part for me. I don't know about other women, but it wasn't a pleasant journey for me for each pregnancy. Maybe because of I push myself to be able to handle work and other men, as well as you know, having getting through this pregnancy. But I had lots of issues and lots of you know, problem problems and call the baby as well. No one helped and physically I was facing a lot of difficulties and also mentally when the baby was born, you know, I think it's all good. Like I don't you're tired anyway but I guess because the natural of myself I'm a very energetic person. Always uplifting you know, I'm just some people think that how come via you know, so always like So up in that high, I said, I'm not on drugs, I just I don't know I don't I don't drink. I can't get drunk. Because if you can one, one cup of anything, I just draw. And I don't smoke. So anything, the only cheat I get myself is maybe just Pepsi or some kids. I'm just having some kids. I'm very happy. So I guess my energy level is always very high. That's maybe why I have four children or because sometimes can I my phone company? Oh, I had one already had enough. Yeah. Oh, that's good. I have three more. If you got three more, you will be fine. I just, I think your energy level is very important. So when you asked me that question, when I look back to that question, I have to say pregnancy is really really bad. This is, this is something that I think every woman is really struggling with pregnancy because the baby is not out yet. You have to always check in you're not sure. And you know, the mom, really nice in your process and everything. You just have to wait. I think that's a period of time for a woman to get through. Both mentally and physically. Hmm, yeah, that's a really good point. So then when you actually had the childhood sort of already prepared yourself had gone through those changes. So then when you had your baby, you were sort of already at that point. I was so lucky. I had the best oil be so what happened is, you know, I my delivery was just so smooth, like didn't feel anything you know, at all, like no pain and no anything just like right hand right? Everything. So maybe because of my case, getting busted didn't really cost me any, you know, attention at all. So my attention Oh, jaws to the pregnancy. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I want to say that I really like your channel, because you're trying to do something I think the society really needs. I think there will be no model about a month. Everyone is different, right? And yeah, I don't know how you feel about Australia. But I came here 2000. So it's already 22 years, it's already half passed off my entire life up to now. So I literally I spent more time in Australia than China. I think the Chinese social media recently really raised me up. Recently, there is a very famous Chinese pop sinner called Lee home, a Taiwanese scene, all right, and, and he betrayed his wife. And the wife gave birth three times and gave everything to the family and basically the popstar just betrayed and it became black and white in the society, they start to get to the court, things get very messy and stuff. And you can imagine, you know, the lady would know that the female the mom started to cry and, you know, mentally break down. It's just, I just feel that, when I look back, I have a very different perspective was that I just feel like everybody has a choice. If they don't want to be like that, you know, dependent on your husband, or you don't want to be betrayed by your husband, and think woman, you know, what do you want? Like, you need to really have a strong thing in yourself, then no matter people betray you or not no matter people, you know, do some bad thing or not, he still can move on. So I guess the social media label that women are in a very bad position and men always you know, money and they are they have, you know, strong ego in China. I'm not saying in Australia. You know, women, they need to depend on a man because they are the one who make money. You know that like, yeah, you know what? Yeah, so China In China Social Media, were they trying to say that woman needs to wake up, so I guess it's a bit late, but at least they are starting to have this slogan. Woman You have to wake up. You are not just a mom. You're also so I guess in Australia, this is so natural. Like I saw my friend like yesterday they gave us today they already you know, grabbing the baby just you know, like, at the workplace. Yeah, you cannot do that. You try not people are just like what are you crazy? And that's why I love Australia because I just feel like I can breathe and I can do whatever I want even have to rely on the Chinese social media and society Australia because I am influenced. I know I was born in China, but there are things I don't like. And what I'm doing now is I don't charge about the things I don't like I just support the things I like, and let more people know about it. And I want them to know that people may not know about it, no matter how many children I have. I'm still a woman. So the most important thing is yourself. That's it. Yeah. Children can wait no matter how many children because every time I find a lesson, yeah, you have four children as you saw what Josh's point if you want to have any more Yeah, that's that's really, really I love that no matter how many children I have. I'm still a woman. That's just really powerful. Yeah, yeah. Good for you. Yeah, I really like your channel because I think society needs this kind of thing rather than just label what is good mom. What is bad mom? And yeah, they need something like this. Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for being a part of it. It's wonderful to have you on. Have you got anything coming up that you want to let us know? Maybe anyone that you're working with or anything musical that you've got coming? I do have something I got two things to share with everybody. So in Brisbane, from February the first where are we standing a festival called bris Asia festival. And I'm so honored to be able to work with very, very famous producer Anthony and I'm going to do lots of music making with different cultures and sound and, and one of the main theme of it is improvisations. And you can feel the music in the space with different instrumental player and a musician. So it's just going to be so beautiful. I'm so thrilled to share with you about February and one for the festival will go for a month. Yes, sir. Yes. Yes. And my show will be an awful amount. So I will put on my socials. Yeah. And also apart from that I'm working with Japanese jazz scene called Lisa Oh no, she's very famous in the jest field. And I'm going to host her international tour in Taiwan in May. So I'm going to flew sorry I'm going to fly down to Taiwan. Hopefully April and I'm going to do four shows with hiding different cities and this is the part I really looking forward to things called always stop all the international shows. And I can't wait to be physically in that theater the big you know, call with International Jazz Singer Lisa or not. So yes, that sounds fantastic. That is great. Good Anya. So you leave the like the kids will stay in Australia you won't take the kids with you nothing. Because I think they are doing a very good routine. I think consistency is very important for children's development. am I building harmony, my oldest child for her to explore because she's started aware of everything. But obviously though the other three younger ones. They will definitely stick with their daily routine. Yeah. Right. Your parents are still there in China. My dad passed away five years ago in Australia, and my mom is still in China. She's in Shanghai at the moment. We used to live in In Brisbane occasionally because she's that type. She wants her own life. Yeah, she told me. I'm your mom. But I don't have responsibility to take care of your daughter's he's done it hard work. Yes. He told me that she says she needs a life. So I guess that's something that, you know, she passed up to me. So, you know, the beginning, I can't understand that. But now I really enjoyed the distance because she's having her own life and I'm having my life. She's right. I chose to have four children. I have a big family, I've got responsibilities, then I will take care of everything. So you learn from it. Right? No one is perfect. So yeah. Yeah. So my mom is not here. Yep. Yep. So how does you talked before about in the Asian culture that it's sort of like the mums got to do everything and not do anything for herself? How does your mom feel about how you're not in a judgmental way? But just she sort of she recognized because you're in Australia, it's a bit different that you can do yoga and I guess there's reason my mom is not that kind of like sacrificing everything for her child type. Yeah, sure. Example, she decided to send me to Australia when I was very young because she's Spacey. I remember when I was six or seven. Everyone else like dad or mom or grandma, grandpa. They waited at the front of the school in China. They always pick up their kids like in front of it and all line up three o'clock. No one picked me up. My mom pulled a key just Oh, my neck. You go home yourself. I was raised up in that kind of family. You understand what I'm saying? Like? Yeah, yeah. Do you think my mom is even worse? No one can take care of me. I still remember when I was six or seven. I don't remember exactly what she right. There was one time my mom was sick. I was so shocked because my dad was interstate for something business. I don't know. You know what happened to me? I actually we have a lunch break. Every school eat China. You have lunch break. So I remember it's 45 minutes. I ran back home cook instant noodle for my mom. Because I was too young that time. I think if people don't eat, they would die. Oh. This is a no, no. I cooked it and leave it to mom. I said mommy to eat. Okay, then I ran back to school. I was only six or seven. raised up by a family that everybody sacrificed for me. It was well, it was offset, then that's what I'm in Brisbane. You know, in Queensland when I was a teenager. I dive into the culture quite quickly, because I think my family's belief is quite matching was, you know, Western culture a little bit. Not not 100% but majority of Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that makes sense. Yes. So in a way your mom was kind of not doing the normal trend for an Asian family. Yeah. Yeah. Did so when you when you sort of started to realize that. Did you think that was a really good thing. Like, did you think my mom was really cool? Because she's just doing whatever she wants. So was it the opposite? My mom is really cool. You know? And I tell her tonight, she's really cool. Because I think I still I see, I don't know, I think you have that kind of friends around you. I don't know if you know, that. Every day. If you send your kids to school, right? You bring lunch. And some moms, they are just amazing. Like everything you just opened their lunchbox like they can do the sushi like Panda. And you know, like, yeah, yeah, they can just talk like, oh, like a mastership Yeah, I can't. I can't it's basically that I don't have the time and I'd be honest, I don't have effort to really learn that then there will be people saying the odd vn doesn't love techies. Yeah, there will be like, because I'm an influencer. So people sometimes judge about me. Oh, she never cooks. Oh, she doesn't know how to cook. She doesn't feed her child. But they still eat so mom, you know, raised me and then my mom was just so cool. Do you know why? I'm still working and I'm working like so busy. You know, it's from my social media. So for example, reason why I had a shooting with Ross Ross. You know the conduct recap. Yeah, he's helped me with the scripts, scripts. And it seemed Mandarin English. Obviously. My mom is author. She's so cool. She can help my scripts. Yeah, yeah. Just imagine if my mom choose to be, you know, giving her Everything just raised me pick me up from school, cook about those food for me and give up her career. She won't be so good. I mean, I, I think I think when you just, I mean it's not yes or no right or wrong, but at the end of the day, you just have to ask yourself, what do you really want? Like a mom like, Oh, come on, can you bring me to your family? Can I live with you? I don't want to be like that kind of mom. I want them have their own life. So do I want to have my own life? So I guess maybe the best way is we do have a bit of boundaries. We do have the lines and to let my children know what does not mean. Like what does money don't like and what what moms can do well, mom want to so let's see. I'm not 100% Mom, you know what I mean? Like? Yeah, absolutely. No, that's wonderful. I really love that good on you. Because I think, I think a lot of moms feel like they have to do everything. And if you don't do it, then you're a bad mom, you know, but it's like yeah, no, that's not true. Yeah, absolutely. And this, this makes people sometimes a bit panic as well. I think this is a peer pressures as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The sort of competition of like you said about the lunch boxes, like, you know, and then you see things. And you know, how neat and tidy your uniform is, your hair is all sort of mark your child gets, you know, you know, that kind of things. Yeah. And then And then, with social media, too, there's all this, you know, you see what other mums doing and all the competition there. It's like you forever feel like you've been judged by somebody else. And yeah, gets a bit much. So your your story is very refreshing. I think a lot of people are going to be very inspired to hear to hear that. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. So honestly. I really, really love chatting to you. It's been lovely. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

(Subscribe on iTunes, Spotify , Amazon , Audible , Google podcasts ) Jedda Glynn is a designer and small business owner from Burrungule, South Australia and a mother of 3. Jedda Grew up in a small country town, surrounded by a creative family. She’s been a dancer her whole life, running the Kongorong Calisthenics Club for many years, and recently starting her own small business, The Springs Creative, where Jedda arranges rustic dried flowers, with the help of her young children. We chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life, the joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children and the importance of having a supportive family around her, and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. **This episode contains discussions around domestic violence and an abusive relationship** Connect with Jedda on Instagram Find out about Squib Group Find out more about the Kongorong Calisthenics Club Connect with the podcast here Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Thank you! Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I’m beyond honoured that you’re here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast – can’t wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Ch eck out more episodes .....

Sarah Renzi Sanders US mixed media visual artist S1 Ep24 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Sarah Renzi Sanders is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland a suburb of Washington D.C USA, and a mother of 3. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother as well as the plethora of roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health, using the mask as a repeated symbol to hide the true self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah’s own meditation practice and creative vision are intrinsically linked as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. We chat about how Sarah draws on this meditation practice to create her art challenging the patriarchy in art and life, being your true authentic self, judgement and generosity. **This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression and autism** Connect with Sarah on her website and instagram Find Sarah"s new series here Find Sarah’s Mixed Media Madonna project here Find Sarah’s Kensington Artists profile here Podcast - instagram / website Music in this episode is used with permission from Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests, and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks for joining me. My guest today is Sarah Renzi Sanders. Sarah is a visual artist from Kensington, Maryland, a suburb of Washington, DC, United States, and she's a mom of three. Through surrealism and symbolism, and working with acrylics, oils, collage and mixed media, Sarah explores her various identities from a young child to a mother, as well as the plethora of other roles women play in society. Her work also brings light to the taboo subject of mental health. Using the mask is a repeated symbol to hide the truth self. Her work demonstrates her fascination with the mysteries of the human mind, memory, and imagination. Sarah's own meditation practice, and creative vision are intrinsically linked, as seen through the metaphysical and spiritual symbolism in her work. Today, we chat about how Sarah draws on that meditation practice, challenging the patriarchy in art and in life, being your true authentic self judgment and generosity. This episode contains discussion around anxiety, depression, and autism. Thank you so much for coming on today. Sarah, it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I'm right in saying Happy Thanksgiving. Yes, yes. Last night, so I'm very glad that it's a feeling a bit full silver. I am but you know what, I had leftovers for breakfast and, and it was great. D tell me is it? I'm not totally familiar with thanksgiving. But is it almost bigger than Christmas? For you guys over there. It's like it's a really significant holiday or it's not bigger than Christmas. But it's kind of the kickoff to the Christmas season two. So one Thanksgiving is over. Then we're bombarded with, you know, the Christmas commercials and the Christmas songs and the radio and like it's time to buy stuff. It's like right off you guys. It's exciting. So So you're in a place called Kensington in Yes, Dairyland. Can you tell me a bit about I did a bit of googling. I was actually really interested in your weather. I have this thing what people's weather's like. So you're in? You're in winter over there now? Yes, yes. So cold, windy. Every once in a while we'll have a nice day. That get air will get up to like 60 Because it's fall. But for the most part, it's pretty cold and windy. Like 30 degrees ish is the average at this point. Yeah, I'm just gonna do a quick conversion and see what that is in Celsius. Yeah. Oh, that's alright. Hang on. I'm gonna look it up. We're about 10 miles outside Washington DC. Maybe a little less than that. Yes. Yeah. So is that like, minus one? So? I mean, 32. Freezing? Yeah. So it's not terrible. It's actually been a pretty mild fall so far. But yeah, it hurts your face. Well, where I live, we do not get anywhere near that. Like, I'm complaining when it's like 13 degrees, which what would that be for you? Hang on, let me put that in proper. What you can 13 Celsius is like 55. Right. So really, so that's cool. That's our code. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's so nice. You probably be appreciating that right now. That's a beautiful day here. So Is it snowing there? Do you get saved? No, it's not snowing. So, um, I mean, today I think they said it was gonna be a high of 45 which is not too bad. I can still walk the dogs and be okay. Yeah, right. Yeah, so that hang on. I've got to look that up. That's seven. Okay, so that's, that's okay. So seven. Yeah, yeah. So your style of art is to realism and symbolism. Am I right in saying that? Can you explain for people like me who aren't into like, understand, what does that mean? So surrealism is you are creating work that looks realistic, but it's often an unrealistic setting. So sometimes the juxtaposition of things that don't really make sense together. Surrealism is often described as dreamlike. It looks like maybe it's came from my imagination, which it did. But in most instances of my work, I'm using my own experiences. And I'm kind of putting it together together in a way that makes sense to tell a story. So it's not an exact memory. It's not like a snapshot of a moment in time. It's more of, you know, how I was feeling in the moment and exploring how I can express those feelings visually, and put symbols in there that have sort of a deeper meaning. And my work, really, it is autobiographical, but I, I want people to be able to look at it and relate to these emotions. Yeah, lately. Yeah. So that's something that started out as something that that triggered from your life, but the themes are sort of common that anybody could relate to that from their own experience in life, I suppose. Yes. Yes. So I address a lot of anxiety, depression, mental health issues. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. That's very common theme, isn't it? For people? Yeah. Yeah. That's very hot right now. Yeah, for sure. So the symbolism I'm interested in because one of my guests I had earlier on was an art historian. And she was talking about how she looks here. Her specialty was the long 18th century. And she was talking about how she looks at the art and, you know, tries to decipher I suppose, what was going on, and all that sort of thing. So I guess that's the symbolism sort of ties in people could look at that. And I guess it's subjective to like, people could take it. However, they needed to, I guess, couldn't they? It's not necessarily everybody. Yeah. And that's why I like talking about my art. But a lot of times, I like people to tell me about what they see in my art and how it makes them feel and how it relates to their story. Because I think that's the most interesting part. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. So what sort of mediums do you use in your art, so I'm mostly an acrylic painter right now. I have used oils in the past but I am working out of a very small office space in my home. So acrylic is just the easier medium to use. And I try to I try to sometimes put things materials in there that wouldn't be expected. For example, I will stitch with embroidery floss directly on the canvas. So you may not see it as well in pictures but if you were to see the work in person, you can see that you know, this eye is stitched on with thread or these flowers are are sewn onto the canvas. The piece behind me as a piece has some lace on it. I also do use textural elements such as cracks. I use this paste called crackle paste and it kind of you put it on and as it dries, it creates these kinds of cracks and it reminds me of, you know, dried Earth maybe like a desert. So yeah, yeah, but And now we'll use a little bit of wash for details which Um, I recently discovered is very, very fun to work with. So yeah, what is that code? Wash? It's, um, so it's I recently discovered it, it's an acrylic medium, but it's, it works almost like an oil or a watercolor, it's very easy to blend. They're little tiny tubes. So it is quite expensive. You're not gonna like paint a whole painting. But a lot of people use it for works on paper and for realistic things. So I'll use it often on the face, or on the small details of a painting. Yeah, and it's just kind of a slightly different. It doesn't dry as fast as acrylic. So you are able to blend it. So it's kind of like almost like, like how oil you can it doesn't dry very fast. So you can keep blending it to make it look more realistic. Yeah, yeah. So that things like delays, I guess is sort of, sort of reflective of like emotions. And I don't know, it's like you're creating all these different elements. Yes. Make sense? No, yeah, totally. And I just, I do I mean, each kid has has a lot of layers, because I feel like each, like each person, especially when I'm addressing women and mothers, it's like, we all have these, like, layers that we keep putting on ourselves to cover our real selves and to hide who we really are. Maybe not to hide it, but you know, it just we get lost in there. You know, you're somewhere underneath all those layers. Yeah, yeah. That's quite, quite good way of putting it. Is that that identity? Is that Yeah, it's a massive thing, isn't it? This the concept that you're, you're a woman. And then all of a sudden you have a child and your entire life has changed the way you think about yourself changes the way society views you is changes. And it's also almost you can sort of get lost in that, I think, is that is that? Absolutely. Yes. And I actually had my first child when I was 20. And I was still in college, university. And so my daughter right now is 15. In high school, and so I felt like really, I didn't even know who I was. I mean, we all struggle with Who am I but but you know, at 20 You have no idea. Yeah. So I really didn't and, and so that did become so much of who I was. And my entire life. So I never really lived as an independent adult. Without being a mother. So I was a mother like, bam, and then yeah, I'm a grew up. Yes, that's right. No, I mean, I wouldn't change it for a thing. I mean, that was the you know, biggest growing experience of my entire life. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How did you first getting to your, your painting and your artwork? Um, so I actually I always was the artist at school, I always was doing little caricatures and drawings of teachers and, and people in my class and and I kind of hated it. Actually, I didn't like being the artist I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be the athlete, or I wanted to be the singer. I didn't want to be the artist. I thought that was boring. So I kind of tried to like, downplay it and push it back. But when I got to high school, I had some really great art teachers. And I you know, all my lectures were art classes, gone to college actually got rejected for being an art major, because my portfolio is so disorder is not you know, me college was not, I wasn't if I completely understand why I was rejected. It was like, completely thrown together. I was probably like, late on it too. But I decided to become an art minor because I didn't need to be accepted into any program to do that. I just You declared art I was a history major and in our minor, yes. So I did work for those courses. And, you know, I loved it, but I wasn't going to, you know, become a full time artists because that just wasn't a realistic option ever. And then I got offered a job as an art teacher, by an old teacher of mine who I just happened to run into, and she's like, Oh, you're an artist, you want to teach art. And I was, yeah. That was my first job. I had a daughter's at that point. She was one. So I, you know, I had to take the job. I taught art, which was great. And I would do a little bit of drawing, you know, for lesson planning and my free time, but I really didn't have time to devote to my art as much. But you know, in the beginning, I was really painting just things that I thought people would like, everyone's well, some come to me with the condition and, oh, can you paint my house, like, a painting of my house? Or can you pay a portrait of my dog or things like that. So I wasn't really painting for myself, I was, I was just, you know, make a little extra money here and there. It really wasn't until the birth of my third my son Wallace that I started painting during his naptime. Because in the States, we don't have any type of maternity leave. So I, it was either I had my third child, it was either like go back to work, and pay an astronomical amount of childcare, or just stay at home with my kid. And, you know, so I stayed at home, and then, you know, he had a study naptime. And that was my, my time to paint. And that's when I really started to, you know, paint for myself and just paint for the pleasure of painting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was there a trigger at that point to, to encourage you to go back to painting or was just something, you sort of just thought, Oh, I just want to do this. Yeah, it was, it was, well, actually, there was an event we our basement flooded. And so we had a spare bedroom in the basement. And I had been kind of painting out of it. But you know, like I said, before, not really, painting work for myself, it was more of, you know, these little side jobs. And when the basement flooded, we had to completely refinished the basement, change the flooring, you know, like, pull everything up. And I told my husband, I was like, you know, I really think instead of a spare bedroom down there, let's just put some cheap tile down. And I'll make it my art studio. And so that was really what really pushed me to start creating and then I had this big space to create and, and experiment and just make a mess. And that was like, such an exciting time. For me. Oh, that sounds awesome. I'm really taken by the colors that you use in your AU. I mean, I get the vibes that you're a spiritual person. He's from like chakras or like, is it? Like head? Is there a connection there? Or is it just totally intuitive or so, um, it's interesting, I grew up Catholic and, like going to Catholic school for 13 years of my life and very strict upbringing. But as I you know, especially as became a mother and became more comfortable in myself and who I was, I have explored, you know, spirituality in a wider sense. I'm not restricted to any sort of traditional faith. And I do have my Reiki level one training so I do and really use the chakra colors. And I do you know, only I practice taro which you know, as a child was told that I was summoning the devil sort of thing. You know, as a as an adult woman. It's like I know what works for me spiritually. And I know how to explore my own intuition. And I'm not really like I'm not afraid of being judged anymore for those sorts of things. Yeah, but I do, I try to use the softer, more feminine girlish pinks. And because it reminds me of my childhood, and a lot of my work is trying to go back and find that inner child and find what she enjoyed and what brought her joy and made her happy and gave her life. Yeah, so so much of my work is going back in time. And it is sometimes dark or subject matter. So I use the the kind of bright colors to almost reframe it and make it a little more digestible. Because, you know, if the subjects I was painting, were painted in, you know, dark, gloomy colors, that's just for me, that's not life, life is a balance of light and dark. Yeah, so, you know, the bad things happen. But something, something is coming out of that some, some kind of treasure is coming out of a bad event, it's always going to even out. So I do try to make my you know, even if my subject matter is death, or, you know, fear or abandonment, or trauma, I do try to keep these kinds of inviting colors into the piece because I do want people to bring it in and kind of reframe their mindset about certain things. Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, it's almost like you're saying, okay, so this is, this is gonna be tough. This is hard. But you know, what, you can look at it through different eyes, you don't have to see it as a, you know, a really big scary, massive negative thing. Right? Right. It's almost like it's almost like a form of therapy, you know? Yes. Yeah, absolutely is in creating, the series that I'm most known for is the unmasking the self. And it wasn't, it had nothing to do with COVID I started this. I did this series in 2019. But I do have the masks, because I feel like as young girls, from an early age, we're very much conditioned to wear masks to hide our emotions. And so my whole life, I've struggled with depression and anxiety and just, you know, put on the mask, smile, perform, be a good girl, you know, do all the things for everybody. And, you know, and so that's a lot of pressure. And I think that especially little girls are under enormous pressure, whereas boys are kind of given a pass and boys will be boys and, and but girls are there's a much higher standard that they're held to. There's an account that growing up and I feel it, I felt it for my daughter. And and I have to I have two boys that, you know. I mean, things are changing, obviously. But the series was really born out of that hole. Who am I? What is my identity? And did I ever really even have one even as a child, you know, like, it's something you really you are hidden under layers of masks and different personas and different identities that people depend on you. And as a mother, it just becomes heavy and you're aware. Yeah. Oh, that's so true. Yeah, that's, that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, I had a look on your website at the, at those pictures of your work. And it's just it's so profound, like when you start thinking about that stuff. Like it's how we start off the day starting with anything. Yeah, man, like, so you're right, having that. That attractive, sort of outside layer. It allows you to venture in without fear. I think you can sort of start to creep into it. And yeah, yes, it's very inviting. So you have three children. So your oldest 15. So I have a son who is nine. Yep. And then I have a son who is five. And my five year old is on the autism spectrum. So that was another big moment in our lives too. kind of reevaluate what it meant to raise a child. And because we had a two before who were semi nurse. But my middle one is, you know, we're still we're still getting evaluated. But the youngest CEO, he wasn't speaking. And he just, you know, would, he was quirkier, and you know, would have the meltdowns and so but when the diagnosis came back, it was very shocking to me, I was not expecting it. But, I mean, he is the most amazing human being in the world. And he is, he did a program for two years for children on the spectrum, intense therapy. And now he is in a neurotypical classroom with a teacher's aide, and he's doing fantastic. But yeah, that was a, you know, that was another dark period that I've illustrated in my work. And just the whole stigma around autism, and you know, something as something that needs to be cured. It's not something that needs to be cured. It's just a completely different, it's a different way that your brain works. And all of our brains work differently. And so I'm kind of, I do I am very passionate about, you know, autism advocacy, and just reframing it like, this isn't some tragedy, this is actually an amazing gift for my son. I mean, he's just the most amazing little human being sees the world in such a way that you I mean, that brings joy to him and brings joy to the people around him. And we all love Wallace. And he is so incredible. It's this, like, amazing little light being rainbow soul who just has these amazing ways of thinking and speaking and seeing the world and yeah, so it's really been such a great gift to us as a family. Yeah, absolutely. can sort of allows you to, to change your perspective on things or look at things in a different way. And, yeah, yeah. That's all always a you know, one of my fears. Because it's like it, like You're conditioned to think that it is, you know, so terrible. And in for some people, it is a big struggle. And I'm very lucky that we had him in early intervention therapy, and he has just grown so much. Yeah. And yeah, it's amazing. And his siblings are amazing. With him. Yeah. So it's really great. Yeah, that's awesome. Any of you children artistic as well? Do? You know, while this would be the most artistic it's, and my son Leo, my middle. He loves football. Loves in it. American football. Yep. So he loves to draw football fields from every NFL team. But that's kind of the center of it. He's not going to draw any other picture. He's not going to draw a family portrait. It's literally just binders full of different football fields. And then he'll have little numbers and scores are involved. Yeah, but then Wallace Wallace really does like to come into the studio with me and he likes the sensory aspect of he likes touching the knee, you know, the wetness the feelings. And then my daughter who's 15 is a brilliant musician. Yeah. So she's not really interested in you know, visual arts but she's pretty I mean, she's pretty amazing guitar piano she can pick anything up and yeah, good. That's awesome. So you recently created an Instagram page for artists in the Kensington area. So you're very passionate about sharing community? Yeah, tell us tell us how you came up decide to do that. You know, I I really just believe that we, we grow and we share and and it's good for all of us to kind of like rise by lifting each other up and I I feel like having a daughter in high school, you kind of are forced to go back into that dark period where girls are cutting each other down constantly. And I do live in this amazing community of Kensington, it's a very, it's a small town, outside of DC. And, you know, we can walk to all these small businesses, little boutiques, little antique stores, thrift stores, we've got a couple of food places, it's like, my kids can literally walk, if they want to, you know, pick up a sandwich for lunch or get a soda. And that's something that in the DC area isn't that common, you know, it's a lot of commuting, a lot of driving. And in our area, we have this nice little perfect place where we can walk everywhere, and the neighbors are so friendly, and everyone knows each other. And I know so many artists just in my community. And I realized that we were all working very independently, you know, everyone's we all give each other a shout out or whatever. But I really just wanted to, like bring us all together and be like, Guys, this is really special, you know, that we have so many artists in our little community. And I want to eventually create, curate some shows, do some public, you know, shows or maybe even open a gallery, two years down the road, but just kind of tapping into this creative economy that's in our community that's so valuable, but it's just not seen very much. And a lot of these women are mothers working out of their homes. So we don't have much studio space in the community. And I just kind of wanted to bring awareness to that. Because people you know, around the holidays, especially everybody's looking for this special gift, and everyone wants to buy from artists in our community. So I thought by putting this together and kind of having it be a landing page for everyone, and just promote everyone, all of them and, and just bring us together and have this kind of be like a united force in the community. So I love that. And I think also too, it shows, there's no, there's no ego of like, you're not competing with anyone, you know, it's like you're welcoming everybody. It's not saying, Oh, yours is better Rios there. It's like, it's just a supportive group, you know? Exactly. And I feel like that's what I really needed. Because I was finding that in, in the city in Washington, DC, I was finding communities of women that I would, you know, be a part of, and I would support and they would support me, but right in my backyard, you know, I can walk to, you know, five artists houses right now, you know, and I'm like, let's do it here. Let's do it here. I don't have to drive into the city to get my community of artists. I can build one right here. Yeah, absolutely. And it's so special. It's something that you know, you can you can help grow and foster that. And yes, yeah, I love that. Turning back to what we're talking about earlier about, you said something. Well, the way I'm remembering it might not be the exact words but it was to do with not worrying what people thought. And I want to just read out a quote that you wrote on your Instagram page. You said, after years of hating myself, I am proud of myself, I painted this huge effing painting behind me and I love it. I don't care if you like it, or anyone else likes it. I love it. My work is powerful and meaningful. And that's a really profound statement. That's like, it is so like, you just, it's just your truth. Yeah, it took me a long time to get there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know what I feel like once once the layers come off, and the ego comes off, and yeah, that sounds a little ego. You know, no, I'm with you. Yeah. But I you know, once you start worrying about people judging you and what others think of you when you more worry about like, No, I'm going to be true to myself and my authentic self and express that to people, you give other people permission to do this. Same. And if we are all, you know, trying to raise the vibration of humanity and, and work towards becoming our authentic selves and discovering our truth and our gifts and our talents, then everybody wins. So, you know, all the people walking around trying to people pleasing, be everything for everybody. And this kind of whole narrative of motherhood is the murderer, and sacrificing. And the first thing that sacrifice is like, your sense of self, right? It's just like you are not, you're just a vessel, and you're just a feeding machine and a maid and a cook. And, and all these things rolled into one that, like, you're so much more than that, like, they're everybody has their unique talents and gifts. And, you know, I did hide mine for so long, like, as a younger child, and even as an adult, not really finding out like what, oh, make a few bucks here, but what's the value of it, but I think that through Instagram, as annoyed as I get with him, it is a great, powerful tool to connect people and to, I mean, to inspire people, I'm so inspired by so many artists. And when I created an interview, I had no idea there were so many inspirational artists, so many artists that I could fall in love with their work, and just so moved by their work. And it just, it's amazing. And if we all just kind of get to a point where we can say, this is me. And this is my work. And if you don't like it, whatever. No, I didn't make it for you. I made it for me. Yeah, yeah. So I absolutely love that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that and put it in my quotes, because that honestly, I feel like I had a similar sort of Revelation. At some point. I'm not sure exactly when, but in. In my childhood, I did a lot of singing competitions, it was sort of something that we had to do. And there was this massive emphasis placed on getting a prize getting a place winning. So there was this. Yeah, this huge connection between for me between singing and being good or being better than someone or someone telling you, you were good. You know, this adjudicator this one person saying, I liked you better than that person, you know, this validation came from other people. And as I've gotten older, it's like, it's the same thing. What literally what you just said, I don't care if you don't like it, because I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for me. And I think, because like, any form of art is so subjective. You know, there's plenty of art that I might not necessarily like or love, but I can appreciate that the person that's done it is done an amazing job in creating that, and they've poured a piece of themselves into this, you know, whether it's music or dancing, or, you know, visual art, you know, so I think, yeah, I've come a long way, in, in many years of just accepting and, and I still put myself up for different competitions, but in different ways, like online or writing competitions. And if I don't win, it's like, that's fine. Because it wasn't my time, you know, I can see that everyone's on their own journey. And even just as recently as last last Thursday night, I was in Adelaide for a competition and, and I didn't win it, and I had no pangs of wish it was me, I mean, would have been nice to win. But I can see that that person, that one that was there on their journey, it's this is their time, you know, and it's other incredibly freeing and empowering to be able to take away that you just feel you feel unencumbered, you just feel light and, you know, yes. Once we remove the need to be validated by others, that is such a like, that is such a turning point. And obviously, of course, I still do get caught up in that a lot. It's not I'm on a journey and evolving and not yet. But I'm definitely like at the beginning when I first created my Instagram, it was like, I really was putting work online because I wanted people to like it. Obviously I wanted people to follow me I wanted people to buy my art and and that's the kind of work I was putting out and then a curator actually asked me who is Sarah Renzi Sanders, the artist. And I was like, I don't know. I it was a really hard question. It really caused me to like, like Who do I want to be? I can be any what I want. But I definitely don't want to be this person just creating, like boring abstracts that people like, so that they will sell. I want to be more than that, you know, so I want, I want my work to touch people, I want my work to inspire people, I want my work to move people, I don't just want to create something pretty to match someone's couch, you know? Yes. And I feel like I know a lot of artists who still aren't doing that and have been doing it for years. And that's their business model, and it works for them. But for me, I think I want to create more of a legacy than, you know, a financial IQ. I mean, obviously, I like I like money. There's nothing wrong with money, but I know what you mean. Yeah, it's not my first it's not my number one, you know, it's not my number one priority. So, yeah, I understand the journey, just the journey, every rejection is a stepping stone to getting where you want to be. So, you know, everybody's been rejected numerous, there's no one successful that hasn't been rejected 1000 times. So yeah, it's interesting, use that analogy. I interviewed a lady in Australia, just a couple of days ago. And she used the same sort of that imagery of she had to sort of she was saying that she was meeting getting to these like roadblocks then she'd have to change direction and, and someone said to her, why don't you look at that, instead of a block, you change direction, and you're going across like a lily pad and you have to go across you had to go to this one. It wasn't a straight line. And she said once she changed that in her mind, that way of looking at it just totally changed. And that's the same thing like the stepping stones. It's not you know, rarely is anything in life in a straight line. You know, we take that turns and and end up with Yeah, totally, totally. Growth is not linear. It's like a big ball of wool or something. It's just like. Topic that that I talk about a lot on my podcast is mommy guilt. And I believe it's something that probably is a resonates across all boundaries, like nationalities, countries, that kind of thing. Is that something is mum guilt, sort of a term that you've heard much of or you've got some opinions on? You know, I have heard it. And I do know women, estate's mostly women that are working full time, that have that mom guilt, I am lucky enough to, you know, be home and working while my kids are in school, and then I pick them up, and then I'm home with them for six more hours. And chauffeuring them to various activities. So um, I don't really have it, because I also feel like, it's, it's something that women need to sort of let go of, and allow themselves to look at it in a way that if I'm doing something for myself, I'm bettering myself so that I can be better for my children. So if I have an art show, and you know, I gotta, you know, my husband has to put the kids to bed and they don't get me singing them to sleep or whatever it's like, my kid is, is growing from that experience. They're not, it's not losing me for one night, they're not going to be traumatized by that. I mean, they're learning to be adaptable. And they're learning that yes, your mother has her own life and, and when you grow up and have kids, you're gonna have your own life too. And I think it sets an example for my daughter that you don't have to give up your entire life and you don't have to martyr yourself constantly. That you actually deserve to have a life on your own and it's gonna make you a better mom. So yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it. I could not have put that better myself. That is brilliant. Absolutely love that. Like, the more I talk to moms, the more that I think that society is the one driving this Mum, do you like the judgment? The judgment that you get from, you know, other mums and social media this perception of what a mum has to be done Um, yeah, and people are going hang on a minute, I don't buy into that, like, like you said, what I'm doing, I'm not neglecting my children, I'm, you know, I'm doing something for myself, that's going to make me, you know, feel better about my mothering role when I come back to them, you know, in a few I'm going to feel fulfilled, so that I can give myself more fully to my children. Exactly, exactly. And you're right about the social media pressure. And there's this whole culture, which I'm sure you know, about the mom influencers, and you know, and they're perfect little children, and they're perfect matching outfits, and, you know, and it's, to me, just so I feel like these women are, are sacrificing so much of themselves for this identity of perfection in motherhood. And I just don't understand how you could be authentically happy when your life is, you know, taking pictures of your children, making sure they look perfect. And you know, I'm not gonna send out Christmas cards this year. Sorry, I just know, I don't have any pictures of my kids like, altogether smiling. So you know, and I think that's okay. And I give myself permission to say, Yeah, you know, I do Christmas cards every other year. Yeah, yeah. And I just don't, I don't have the time to battle with my children until like, bribe them with candy and, and get maybe a mediocre picture of them sitting on the porch. And them all hate me for the rest of the day, because they had to sit in the cold and get a picture. You know, and like, I'm not the mom taking my kids to the pumpkin patch. And, you know, putting them on top of Tompkins. And you know what, I'm just not that person. Yes. And a lot of people, it's just like, they automatically think, well, if I don't do this, I'm not if I don't take my kid to the pumpkin, but it's just in the states. The Pumpkin Patch is a big fall activity. Yeah. Which I don't really buy into, because I'm like, I don't understand it. But it's a good photo op, I think for the moms. Yeah. And yeah, no, I we just don't do that. Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of a lot of it's like, people were coming back to that judgment thing. Like, people have to show that they're doing something or people who literally, if it didn't, if it's not on social media, it didn't happen. You know, everything's got to be on social media and, and it's almost like, Who are you trying to justify? Are you trying to make yourself feel better? Like, what are you why are you doing this? Like, yeah, justify your role as a mother that I Oh, I spend lots of time with my kids. I'm trying to make myself feel better about it. Or, you know, is it for other people to say, Oh, wow, they're doing lots of stuff, you know, like, my exhausting, you know, to me, like you're talking about these masks, like, it's a facade that they're putting up, they're creating this pretend life. Right? And that's, I mean, with my daughter, you know, now she's on social media, of course. And it's, it's just, I want to show her that no, this isn't like, this isn't real. These girls that you see with their filters on and perfectly dressed and posing places like, that's, that took that to take that picture, took a lot of work. And it's not like this perfectly, like little snapshot of my life, this is very much set up. This is a this is very curated. This, you know, this person in real life, they don't look like that. And I do like a lot of people that do it, it, it's almost like, I think with the motherhood thing, there's that loss of identity. And they maybe feel like by creating this diary of images that are perfect. It is like more concretely like, Oh, this is my identity. This is who I am, this is who I want to be. And this is where I want to show the world. But it doesn't come from a deep place. And that's where it becomes problematic. Yeah, that's it's not authentic. It's not. They're not living the truth, I suppose. Right. Right. Yeah, I think authentically, like you become your authentic self, and you express that and then the right people are attracted to you. I tell my daughter all the time, because you know, at 15 You're going through so many friend troubles and morphing of groups and, you know, drama, teenage drama, and I'm like, if you just be yourself, be true to yourself and the right people come to you and I didn't learn that until I was probably like, 33, you know, yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a long journey to get there for sure. But when it happens, it happens. And yeah, I mean, I've so I went through a period of my life where I probably had no close friends for about 10 years. And then most recently, it's just like, I have all these people I really enjoy talking to. And we really connect. And it's, it's because I've done the internal work, it's because I'm expressing myself and who I am. And, you know, the people that are at that point in their life at that vibration are attracted to authentic people. So yeah, yeah. I've recently talking to other artists, mothers, it's hard to apply to things sometimes and not feel like there is an aspect of, you know, well, we mainly don't want a mother to be the artists resident, or we maybe don't want a mother to be the face of it just because she's always busy. Or she always has other things going on. Or her life so chaotic already, you know, like, there are these, like, certain excuses, I feel like that people make for not working with artists, mothers. And it wasn't until I talked to my friend the other day that I really realized that and she said something like, about posting her kids on her social media, like, maybe I shouldn't be doing this, like, doesn't man ever have to think about, you know, posting a picture of his child affecting his career? No, he doesn't. In fact, it probably it does boost his, you know, his like ability to get jobs because people are like, Oh, he's a dad, he has a family to provide for but for women, it's a totally different. It's like, oh, well, you know, she has all this work to do at home. And she has all these responsibilities. But I'm like, I mean, me anymore. We are the hardest working people on the planet. Saying I have the time to do this. I have the time to do it. I want to do it. Yeah, absolutely. Now when you talked about before the taro Have you ever done or thought about having, like creating a deck with your honor? Yes. That is probably what's coming next for me. Yeah, so the whole thing was, I had this really creepy story happen. And it's, it was a few years ago, and I was visiting my grandmother's grave, and my grandmother is very, very close to my house. So I do visit her quite often. And I went to her grave, and there was a little like walking path above above her grade. And on the walking path, there was this velvet blue bag, like a little pouch. And I was like, what is that and I kind of opened it and peeked inside and it was a deck of tarot cards. And I was, you know, I love that kind of stuff. But, um, but I was also a little bit like, am I supposed to take this or do I? So I texted my whole family like what do I do? They're like, don't take it, don't take it like that is not when you don't want that, you know? And so I was like okay, but I think it means something. So I I did take a picture of the first card on top and then I looked up the deck and I actually found it online and I ordered it and it is influenced so much of my work and it has been so spot on. But yeah, I think it's kind of like a psychological tool where Anybody can do it. And anybody can interpret what it means for them at that point in their lives. So it's not really this whole, you know, like I was taught in grade school, you know, summoning the devil or like, this tool of Satan, it's, it's, it's literally a card of beautiful pictures and you shuffle it and you choose some and then you decide how that relates to your life and if that's gonna give you guidance, or tell you what next step to take, or maybe just how to have how to change your mindset about something. So, so I do think that that is coming for me and I have sketched out a few things, but, you know, that's like a long term project. But, ya know, I definitely think my grandmother said that to me and was like, Hey, you should do this. Yeah, cuz you know what, when I started looking through your work, I was just instantly had this like, Oh, these need to be on tarot cards, because this is you know, that. Yeah. Like, there's I mean, there's definitely a big influence on my work. Yeah. Sorry, go. Now go. Oh, no, I was gonna say even before I was creating this body of work, I was creating like a more abstract, like, I don't know, if you're familiar with like, paint boring. It's very trendy right now. It's old, like, yeah, liquid paint boring. So I was doing a series of those. And I was naming them as for cards, you know, like two of cups are to me up because of the cards from my grandmother. And it was like, Oh, well, I did this one the day I found it. And that was the that was the card that was on top. So yeah, so I was even before I was creating the stuff that actually looks like Taro. Yeah, definitely going to do that. That is Yeah, no, I'm bored. And I will get some because that is beautiful connection as much. A lot of my work kind of addresses that tension between you growing up in a super Catholic environment and Hoekman and what? You know, those feelings of like, I'm doing something bad. Yeah, no, yeah. Like, we need thinking for myself and exploring my own spirituality is bad. I need to just do what the grownups you know, and my sister and I would be like, you know, locked in our we would have we had a little walk in closet that we shared no room and we would read each other's cards, and we had our crystal ball and, and I definitely grown up to be that person. Like, I have a crystal ball. And we make cards every day. And I meditate every day. Yeah, yeah. But it was something that you had to hide away because it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yes. Totally. I wanted to ask you about your other project that you do you mix media Madonna, is that? Is there sort of a Yeah, to do with that traditional. You know, practice religion. It's so interesting, because i People often ask me, oh, are you like very Catholic and I was raised Catholic, and I am a part of I do believe that's part of my culture, and my cultural upbringing. You know, my grandparents came from Italy. And, you know, I grew up with, you know, the Madonna in these pictures in their houses in their homes and bring the rosary a lot. But I moved my mixed media data, I do try to kind of bring my own twist on Mary and make it more about worshiping the idea of the mother. You know, this is like, the mother is so often forgotten, and I really want to highlight the mother and I used to teach a big lesson on the the evolution of the way Mary was painted in art history. And she went from being you know, this kind of stoic, you know, very embellished icon. Due to being, you know, kind of like Raphael portraying her like a woman of the day, like during the Renaissance, like she was portrayed, she wasn't portrayed like, Mary traditionally in, you know, in her time she was portrayed, like, this is a mother or a normal woman that I'm painting, and I'm painting her in the clothes of the day with a very thin Halo, and she's becoming human. And relatable. Yeah. And so, I do, I just am fascinated by all the different cultures in all the different ways of, like, visualizing marry, and kind of making it my own and, and making it you know, more, more than the religion, I think it's like, the the Motherhood is the most simple and the spirituality of just connecting to the mother of all, you know, yeah, and I use, you know, prayer books and people send me like, literally antique postcards and things like that. And I'll find books in all bookstores. And it really is just like magic to kind of find all these pieces and put them together in a more beautiful way, because I feel like she was always always just seen as like, oh, it's Jesus's mom. It's Jesus's mom. And even in Catholicism, you know, we do elevate Mary a lot more than other religions, but I've wanted to be something more than that. And just something that every woman can kind of look at and be like, oh, yeah, like, I like I like this. You've had people that are like, I, you know, I'm Jewish. I'm not religious at all. But I really like this piece speaks to me. And that's kind of what I want it to be more of, like a, like, this isn't just for Catholic people. This is for everybody. Yeah. And that's, I mean, it's a hard balance. Because, you know, some people are like, whoa, like, I'm not religious. I'm, you know, but I think it's a little more than that. Yeah, absolutely. It's like that universal sort of message of Allah. It is. That's what it is. That's actually what it is. It's yeah. And that's how it came out. I mean, yeah, it was, like, totally born of love. And just, in me being a mother and just, this is another mother that I'm going to celebrate. And and you know, it is mostly mothers that buy a lot of people buy them for gifts for their mothers or for you know, yeah, but and they're all different. And I tried to make each one very, I mean, at this point, I've probably made around 50 of them, I would think that you know, are just out there in different places. But I just keep making them and even if I have the same image like I have a lot of Raphael because Raphael did a lot of Madonna's but if I have the same image I still want to make it like different different colors different flowers, different elements. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. Yeah, I'm just imagining them would look nice up here and we're making a whole dashes them right now. I was trying to get it done for you know, Black Friday which is this American holiday that everyone shops on but not finished yet. You could make make your own shopping I just want to have some for the holidays for people to buy, you know because because I don't sell my large pieces. So you know, the way I make a little bit of money is Prince would Madonna's release Have you got anything on the go at the moment any projects or series that you're working on? That you want to share? Tell us about her. Um, so I have started working on these large abstract pieces and they they're kind of could be described as more graphic abstract, sharper lines. And like, you know, boom, bright colors. I do a lot of third eye stuff, which I've done my entire career but it's way mo here. This one is in progress. So but you know, it's more of like Like, inspired by nature, but yeah, like more of a very symmetrical Yeah, structured vision. And I do get these when I meditate every day. And I do, sometimes, especially around the full moon, get these kind of like, very clear images in my head, that when I come out of meditation, I'll sketch them really quick. And then I just there they come, they come pretty quick, and it's easy to pick the colors. And I use kind of my standard color palette that I use for my other series just, I just decided I'm just going to always take with my favorite colors, and it makes it a lot easier because then everything looks kind of cohesive, even though you know, this, the style is so different. But you know, I've been I, I've submitted a few to some open calls, and I been rejected for those. So, you know, I mean, I've been rejected for every everything I've ever painted at some point, but so, you know, we're still working through that kind of my artists statement for those pieces and not try. You know, I tried to sound authentic, but at the same time, sometimes people are like, Sarah, like, bring it down a little bit. Like, with all the woowoo like, yeah, manifestation stuff, and I'm like, okay, to put that was actually meant to say that, like, you know, why should you have to tone yourself down? Like, maybe they're not the right people to talk to you absolutely true. Absolutely true. Yeah. I just think that my own art practice has made me a better mother, even if that means less time with my children, I think that we all need to figure out that balance and, and what we need to keep us sane, because it's very easy to just spiral into this kind of loss of self and just becoming shells of people as mothers. And I feel like having something of your own as a mom, and not just a career, but something of your own. More than a hobby, a passion, you know, is so important. And I just think every, every mother needs that outlet for themselves. And to remember that, like, I am a separate entity, I'm human in myself, I am not just, you know, because we often feel like we're just like, walking around with children attached to us. And, and with all of the, our, I've painted the woman, you know, with all the arms before balancing all the things and yeah, and and we're so much more than that. And I think once motherhood starts being more valued, because it shouldn't be valued. I mean, we are raising the future of society. So there should be more emphasis placed on the value of mothers. And I think I think we're getting there, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like each each generation is sort of pushing those boundaries and pushing the, the expectations of I'm going to say the patriarchal expectations, because that's basically what it is. Yeah, so each generation moving forward, you know, breaking ground and, hopefully, yeah, no, I think it is, I really, really truly believe that. That each of us, you need all the other moms that are out there elevating other women and, and motherhood. We're making a difference. And, and I mean, we're making a difference to our daughters. They're seeing us do this, and they're gonna do even greater things. So yeah, I truly believe that. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, that's a that's a beautiful sentiment to end on. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your giving me all right. Thanks so much, Alison, is great talking to ya EJ. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat. We With an artistic mom

Damien Leith Irish Australian singer, songwriter, author and playwright S4Ep99 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts To celebrate Fathers Day in the US and northern hemisphere I am thrilled to welcome well known Irish / Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damien is a multi-talented artist that has made his mark in Australia as a singer/ songwriter, producer, author, playwright and tv/radio host personality and he is a dad of 3 children. Damien grew up in Ireland surroudned my music, but didnt get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and 2 sisters and toured around Ireland. He came to Australia in 2003 after meeting his soon to be wife Eileen in Ireland, on the first leg of a round the world trip, and has never left! The talented family man first captured the attention and affection of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol – a series he went on to win. Since then, his career skyrocketed, but he has remained charming, grounded and modest – securing him a place as a popular and well-loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years Damien has enjoyed platinum-selling albums selling over 750,000 albums and won many prestigious awards including Arias, a Golden Guitar, Songwriter of the Year and many more. His Aria wins include number 1 chart awards for the albums WHERE WE LAND and THE WINNER'S JOURNEY, highest selling album, and highest selling single and number 1 chart award for the track, NIGHT OF MY LIFE. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and television shows. Damien was a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of DANCING WITH THE STARS. Damien also loves creative writing, publishing two novels ONE MORE TIME (2007) and REMEMBER JUNE (2009). He also shares his expertise as a singer/songwriter and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through his DAMIEN LEITH ACADEMY. When Damien is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his recording studio where he is a highly sought-after songwriter (published through Embassy Publishing) and producer. Writing for many artists, he won 2016 APRA/ASA songwriter of the year and 2017 APRA/AMCOS GOLDEN GUITAR winner for song of the year. This episode contains mentions of OCD Damien - website / shows Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Damien. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online. I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast. The art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on has been the Bondic people in the barren region. I'm working on land that was never ceded. Hello, and welcome to another episode of the podcast today to celebrate Father's Day in the US and other countries around the world. I'm thrilled to welcome well known Irish Australian singer Damien Leith to the show. Damian is a multi talented artists that has made his mark in Australia as a singer and songwriter, a producer, author, playwright and TV and radio host and he's also the dad of three children. Damien grew up in Ireland surrounded by music, but didn't seriously get into singing until he was 17. He started a family band with his brother and two sisters and toured around Ireland. In 2003. After meeting his soon to be Wi Fi lane, he set out on the first leg of around the world trip and arrived in Australia, and he has never left. This talented family man first captured the attention and affections of Australians when he contested the 2006 edition of Australian Idol, a series that he went on to win. Since then his career has skyrocketed. But he's remained charming, grounded and modest, securing him a place as a popular and well loved Australian personality. Over the past 17 years, Damien has enjoyed platinum selling albums, and won many prestigious awards, including Arias, a golden guitar Songwriter of the Year and many more. His music has been chosen to appear in commercials, movies and TV shows. Damien was also a celebrity contestant and finalist on the 2011 series of Dancing with the Stars. He also loves Creative Writing, Publishing two novels in 2007 and 2009. He also shares his expertise as a singer songwriter, and has created online courses to help artists improve their voice and songwriters to write, record and release their own music through the Damien Leith Academy. When Damian is not touring and performing, he spends his time in his studio, where he's a highly sought after songwriter, and producer. Today's episode contains mentions of OCD. Throughout today's episode, you'll hear snippets of Damian's music, which is used with permission from my APA and cost money online license. Thanks so much for tuning in. I appreciate your ongoing support due to changing work commitments, my nine to 5am I unable to keep doing the podcast every week. So over the next few weeks, please enjoy some written articles, which will be released every Friday. And you can find them on my website. Alison newman.net/articles. I got you, I got you thank you so much for coming on. Damian. It's such a pleasure to meet you. Likewise, absolute pleasure. Yeah, it's really great to have you on. I've been a really big fan of yours for a very long time. So I'm saying to go silly now. Well, that's nice. There's nothing wrong with that. I've actually seen you perform at the Irish festival. I've been croit the few years ago. I love that festival every time I've played there quite a few times now. Maybe five times and I love it. It's such a great vibe. Here. Little town as well. So, yeah. Oh, it was a real treat get down there. Yeah, yeah. Have you got it on your plans to come back anytime soon? I don't have the not for the next two years at least. Yeah. Because I observed the last time was it last year, I think, last year or the year before? Yeah. So. So we normally have a little bit of a gap. So but and it's also it's based around an invite as well. So he kind of wants to get an invite as well by the organizers. But I'll definitely be back. I love it. It is just a gorgeous vibe. And like, it feels like being back in Ireland, it's kind of a little Irish town. So there's something about that little town that just works. It's funny, because the rest of the year, it's basically just this little town that exists, and no one knows about it. And then for this one weekend of the year just explodes. And it's just, it's awesome. We just love it. So much fun. And I did enjoy the version you played last time you were there of black is the color that you sang with, I think it was a local girl that sang with you. And that, that that federal part in the middle, and then it changes. I don't know what the chords are. But it changes back from the Federal part to the like, the regular verse. And then it's one bit where it just changes. And every time I hear I just get goosebumps. It's like it just lifts and I can't describe it really. But it's it's pretty, pretty amazing. So Oh, well. That's great. That part actually, that was that was originally played by Sharon core from the course. Oh, are you kidding? Yeah. Which which was an incredible experience. I I recorded an Irish album. And the whole idea was to try and make it as authentic as possible. So I recorded it in Ireland. And and while we were there, we managed to get two major major guests. One was Sharon core. And the other one was Sharon Shannon. And Sharon Shannon has I think she played Corona as well. Incredible accordion player, but they haven't haven't Sharon core on there was a real real treat. You know, I'd been a fan of the course when I was a kid. So I happen a core actually play and so she sings on it as well. Oh, okay. Yeah, so that's pretty cool. Very cool. Very cool. Great violinist. Yeah, they're actually they're coming to Australia. Soon I think that's fine. Pretty much everyone would know you from your dates on the Australian Idol. But what did you do before then? Like, when did you come to Australia? And when did you get into singing? Was it always something that you did growing up in Ireland? Yeah, singing singles was a major part of my life. From the age of about 1617 onwards. Prior to that the only thing I ever wanted to do was be an actor. I loved acting. Yes. For years and years. And I've never sung a note until I was about, I think I will say 17. But I think it was about 16. I auditioned for a school musical. That's, that's really what got me into music, music. But music has always been in the family. My mother is a great singer. And she her whole family are all singers. So there's a long, long history of singers in the family and dad plays guitar. So music was a major part of our lives growing up. But from the age of about 17 onwards, I became obsessed with music. Absolutely, you know, totally over the top of our music, I started learning how to play the piano on the guitar and I started writing my own songs. And I convinced the rest of my family to create a family band with me. So it was my two brothers, my sister and myself. And we went from just this little band that played out in the back garden in the in the shed to a band that actually gig all over Ireland. Yeah, yeah, we absolutely loved it. So, so I was doing that. But I also studied to become a chemist. So So in the end, I actually became a chemist. And, and prior to arriving in Australia, I was a full time chemists or works as an industrial chemist. Yeah, from 995 as a chemist, and at the weekends as a musician, and it was great. Yeah, right. Just on that what's what's the difference between a compounding chemist in an industrial chemist? Well, from what you actually studied at uni, it they they kind of started the same path but one definitely branches off so I would have gone more into the to the actual lab style chemistry where an actual compound chemists or somebody who actually run runs a store works in the store. They specialize in, in knowing and understanding what medicine should be prescribed to certain person and on all the different side effects and you know, everything that is required for someone to be able to actually deal with a patient might come in off the street where I was definitely more from the research side. And I did load research. I researched for years I did. I did all sorts of different drug research trials. I did, you know, analysis on new drugs that were coming out so I did a lot of that sort of stuff. Yeah, that sounds pretty interesting sometimes you was it your chemist work deployed to Australia or your music that brought you out here? It was love that brought me out of here it was. It had nothing to do with the other two. Nothing whatsoever. My wife is Australian. I met her in Ireland. And from the moment we met, it was kind of a love at first sight. We were married within three years. Yeah, it was, you know, a whirlwind, but absolutely amazing. So I met her in Ireland. She was visiting her grandmother, so her dad's Irish, her mother's tongue. And she was obviously born in Australia. So she was over there visiting her grandmother, I happen to be working in the same place that she was working. And one thing led to another and yet Three years later, we were married and decided to go around the world on a honeymoon. So we had around the world ticket one the SLUBs happened to be in Sydney. And once we arrived in Sydney, we never left. Oh, there you go save still got that rest of that holiday to go at some point. Expired I think unfortunately, that's really the sun go down on Galway. Just stay here again, the ripple of the trout stream. Where man in the meadow is making desired a turf RM Nakaba. 17 is sort of older to come into music. So I can sort of understand how you sort of described it as being like you've really got into it all of a sudden, because it's almost like you were sort of cramming in, like 17 years worth of, of music catching up, you know, that sort of thing. Does that is that sort of how it felt like you were just sucking in everything you could and sort of soaking it all up. Yeah, it was like that. It was also such a new experience. Because once I got a taste for music, I really found that I enjoyed it in a major way. I mean, I love the feeling of singing. It was one of those sort of things I used to go into the living room back home in Ireland, we lived in a little country town called Milltown out surrounded by farm fields. So there wasn't a whole bunch of houses all around around us where, you know, if I was singing at the top of my lungs, people would be given out. But I just loved the feeling. I loved going into room and I loved challenging myself to try and sing high notes or to try and sing like Frank Sinatra or nakin core. Interestingly, when I started singing, I did not sing a lot of the songs that traditional, you know, traditionally people would start off singing and I didn't go through that, that whole you know, going through scales and all that sort of stuff because I never had lessons or was just CDs that are logged in. And like I said Nat King Cole was probably one of my major artists that I saw long term which is very strange, because that can cause quite a low singer. And I ended up with quite a high range. But I just love the emotion and the likes of Nat King Cole and and all the all crooners just to put into songs. I love that feeling of being able to tell a story. Hmm, yeah. And I guess that that sort of ties in with like, the Irish heritage of like a lot of the songs that that stories really in song format, they there's a lot like that. Yeah, oh, absolutely. All those old Irish stories, they're all the stories about losing someone or some sort of conflict or something that was really that had a major impact on someone's life. And, and the only way you can sing those songs is by putting, putting a lot of feeling into them. So I think for me starting off, being interested in all of that style of music really helped me out on that, but I've been a singer for last since I can remember. But it wasn't until I went to the Irish festival in Croydon and actually was around people singing like the crowds of people singing and realized how many like, I don't want to get political or anything, but like the passion and the struggles that, like people from Ireland had faced throughout the years like and it just, it was really overpowering at one point, I sort of found myself sort of, I don't know, in this moment where I just had this realization of what it all meant, like, it's not just a duty and a little happy tune about whatever like, it's like, the real background in some of those songs is really quite powerful. Yeah. Oh, they are. Absolutely. And it's interesting that a lot of those old Irish songs, the message is very, very strong. They, a lot of them were written, inspired by actual events that really, really moved people that influenced their entire lives. But those stories still still carry on, even now, many years later. And even though they don't always link necessarily to the political side of stuff, the sentiment is so strong that if you've got something in your own life, that means a lot to you. Like, a real common thing for anyone living in Australia from Ireland is homesickness. The the melody and melancholy of a lot of those songs, helps you sometimes with your homesickness, and there's something in the in the music that by singing it, or by listening to it, you don't know you get a kind of a way of dealing with missing home or being homesick. Yeah. hard to describe. But this is the songs are just so beautifully written that they allow you to express your emotions. Yeah, no, I can I can understand that. And yeah, like, oh, come in process saying I was there was one in particular, I thought the first time I ever heard it saying around me. That one about the Freebirds fly. What's that? Yeah, I didn't realize like, Oh, my God, this is full on like, this is people, you know, as Australians, and like most of us have never had to fight for our country or fight for our identity. And it was like, wow, this is unreal. Like, and that my friend Helen. She's from Northern Ireland. So yeah, she's got a different perspective on it, too. But yeah, interesting. I just wanted to mention that without, you know, going into things. No, no, I told you that my dad's from Belfast. So, you know, so I traveled up and down to Northern Ireland when I was a kid. And I saw different stages of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. And I mean, Arlen really was a country at war. That is something that sometimes when people refer Carlon, the kind of the make light of that, but actually, it was really serious situation really, really, truly was and, and affects so many people that see it. And I think from like, I mean, I tend to think of myself as a worldly sort of person. Like, I listened to the news, I watch things, whatever. But until I'd met someone, that it was from there and understood it, I had no concept, no concept at all, you know, like you just you just hear words like, you know, about Shin Fane and things like that. And the IRA, but you don't really get it. So yeah. Yeah. The pie, supine, soft call. From Glen to the mountains. This summer's gone. So you said before you've never had singing lessons. So were you just self taught like your falsetto. And in your range? You just worked that all out on your own? Yeah, I did. It was It's the voice that I have my the sound that I have, is a very familiar sound in amongst my mom's family. So there's definitely a history there. The sound of the voice, it's definitely traveled from through the generations, there's no question about that. So what I discovered that I could sing, I was actually very blessed, to have a voice already had a lot of the things that I would need to actually perform. Now, none of it was developed, I still had the scene and sing and sing and sing, to try and get to improve and to find my own style and find my own way around it. But yeah, but you know, I think with a voice, you're either born with a certain sound, or you work on it, it's one or the other. The voice can always be improved beyond that. But I was definitely in that category of someone who just had a voice to begin with. Yeah, like I've I've had, I can relate to that. Like, I've had a lot of coaching later in life with my singing. And it sort of comes down to literally what sort of voice box you've got, like the length of your, whatever those things are called in your throat and how thick they are, you know, you can't you can't change your genetics, but you can definitely work with what you've got to get the best out of it. For sure, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You're, you're it's, you know, Your Your makeup is all about the style, your voice, the tone, your voice comes from, you know, the space within your mouth, your approach the the air that's passing through the larynx, all of that comes into effect. So your genetics definitely come into into play with what you're going to end up having. Obviously, you can't improve it, you can widen the range. And you can try and get resonance to sit in a different place in your mouth, and all that sort of stuff as well to improve it. But you can be very fortunate just to be born with a certain sound. Yeah, that's something I've gotten really interested in the last few years is where you place the sound in your face, like where you can we can get that different sound and pushing it out through your nose or, you know, I don't know, like when you've been singing for a long time, I think you start to sort of experiment a bit more and think how you can change your tone. And I don't know. Yeah, I think I found that really interesting. Probably the last five years, getting a bit more into that will interest in last year, near the end of last year, I managed to get COVID. And I got COVID While I still had loads of shows on so I had tons of shows I had this thing, I couldn't cancel the show's canceled for many reasons. But probably the main reason was COVID had arrived, you know, three years prior to that, and I lost so many shores. And I had to reschedule them so many, many times that they eventually came about, I couldn't just cancel them again, I had this thing on it. So I did a sang on them. And while I was doing that, I also had a breakfast radio show. So I was getting up early in the morning, I was doing the radio show as well. And by the end of last year, I actually I heard my voice genuinely hurt my voice. And I ended up attending an en ti and the NT, you know, examined my throat. And so what damage was thanks, thankfully, nothing long term, but enough damage that I was actually for the first time in my life in the last two months, instructed not to sing. Well, this complete rest, complete rest and also to attend a speech pathologist and a singing teacher. So for the first time ever, I've really had for a long period of time of working with a singing teacher, and I've been really looking into your voice and then where you place things and and it's extraordinary what your voice can actually do. It really is an amazing instrument. It can do things that you just wouldn't imagine that it can actually do. And it does it all from the inside. So you you know, it's not like a guitar where you can actually touch it and you can change the strings. This is all controlled by air the whole thing all controlled by air. It's a it's an amazing instrument. Yeah, it is fascinating. When you think of it like that. Did you get nodules? Is that what happened to you? Or no, I didn't thankfully. I was worried that I did. Yeah, because I had to push so hard. I had so many shows all that some time when I was sick. Thankfully, no, no long term damage at all. Basically, it was like I sprained my throat. Like so. I just had the rest of its back. And it's working really, really well. That's good. Thank goodness. Can you imagine like, did you ever go through your mind? Like, what if I can't get back to my, you know, my previous power? What will I do with myself like, was your head yeah, yeah. Oh, no, absolutely. I was I was worried sick. And like I said, thankfully, I went to the right people and the right people pointed me in the right direction. And actually, as a result of it, I think I'm coming out of it as a better singer, which is what I'm loving the most. There's there's things that I had been doing wrong because it didn't have the experience the training, there was things that I was actually I have always done wrong, that now I've fixed for going forward and I think it's already improved in the sound of my voice and it's improving my range and what I can do with the voice, which is great. Hmm, so a little bit of a silver lining to the code. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, I had COVID this time last year, and I found it took a long time for my my power to come back that like you know, just getting the air in that that was the thing that took took a really long time. So it really messes with you. It's a horrible thing. Oh somebody's like you know? Tell us a little bit about your family. I read on the internet that you've got three children. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about them. Yeah, so I'm married to Ireland. Ireland. As I said, I've met in Ireland and she's originally from Australia. So when we moved to Australia was 20 years ago, we arrived in Australia. We were broke because we were doing a run the world trip. When we decided to get jobs, I got straight into the chemistry and Ireland got into the marketing and, and within a short space of time, Australia started to feel like home to us. So it was around that point that we got pregnant with Jarvis. Jarvis is our oldest. He's 17. fast forward another couple of years along him Jagger who's 15. And then along came little Kiki she's 11 and and the the three proudest things that I've done in my lifetime. I gotta be honest, people always say, Oh, well, what's the what's the best best memories? Or what are the best moments in your life and for me, it always revolves around Island jobs Jagger and Kiki the kids and Ireland. That's really it. They all have those moments of clips, anything else, you know, there's nothing that really compares to, to spending time with them. And with the kids watching them grow and become the people that they want to become. It's it's an amazing experience. It's challenging, of course, lots and lots of but it is great. Yeah. And yeah, now that they're getting older, like you said, they're, they're developing and turning into, you know, their own real people. It's a pretty exciting time, I've got a just turned 15 year old and a seven year old and yeah, this 15 year old watching him trying to work out what to do with school and picking subjects and just thinking about the future. Now that's it's a whole new world, isn't it? It is, and it's a strange, new, we're alive. I think. I sound like an old person here. But back in my day, it seemed a lot simpler. It, it's interesting, they have so much at their disposal now with technology and with everything else, but it seems more complicated than ever, because of all that. They're the exposure that they're dealing with and, you know, impacts on on a lot their choices and impacts about their emotions and how they feel. We're back in our day, we didn't have all that at all. So you may do with what you had. Now, I find the new generation has everything. And it's hard for them to make do with it. Because if they don't like it, they move on to something else. Yeah, that whole idea of not concentrating enough time on any particular thing. I actually think that's a real challenge for this generation coming through. Well, I'm early childhood educator in my day job. And we actually were talking about this exact subject at a training I went to on last week, that they reckon that because of like the likes of Tik Tok, and in YouTube and Instagram, where the algorithms will throw things at you to keep you on there. So you might watch a little bit of something, and then it goes, Oh, they're about to get off. So let's give them this. So our brains are changing, and are only used to concentrating for really short amounts of time now, because of what we're exposed to, which is really scary. I think it's very scary. I think, from a creative point of view. It's going to, I worry that it might impact the next generation come through from a creative point of view, you know, that that whole idea of sitting down and really concentrating and creating something that's, that's been taken away? Because technology is kind of sitting in there, you've got the AI now that can write stories for you who got Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're exposed to so many different things that they don't actually have to sit down, and really concentrate in and come up with something themselves, they can actually technology can do it for them. And while that's an amazing thing, and like I say, I sound like my day sort of person, but I do worry about it. I think on one level, it can be great. And on the flip side, it can take away that whole creative side and creative sides are really what matters most to me. I love the creative world. I love seeing what people can come up with using their their talents and their abilities. It's essentially taking away what it means to be human, isn't it? It's like, you can plug this thing into a computer, and it will be will write a story or or do a painting, you know, all this? Yeah, it's just taking away what it really means to be human. I feel like it's, it's horrible. Yeah. But what to me what may happen as a result of this is that the next generation are very creative people coming through, will have to be even more rebellious than ever before, because they'll have to stand up in the past that the creative person was was often quite, quite often the the rebellious person, the person that went against society or the person who went against the norm. They've got an even bigger challenge. They're going against the norm and they're going against simplicity. Because it's, you know, if you have a feeling about something, you could always just go oh, just chant. Type it into an AI and it'll just write it for me. So they You have to be strong willed. And they have to make that really conscious decision that says, You know what, I'm going to be an individual here entirely. So that that I create something that hasn't been created before. And I think that'll pose a lot of challenges. It's like when we're breeding a whole new range of rebels that are gonna go against this next next level of technology, you will have to be an individual. There's so much stopping them from doing that. Yeah, yeah. And things always go in cycles. That's the thing I always find, like, I'm hoping that this, this AI and stuff will, will sort of ease off because people will start to go, oh, hang on, this isn't right. And it'll, you know, hopefully go against it, and take it down a notch. But we can only hope, time will tell. But on the flip side, I will say I because I'm a real. I do like technology. Because I record in my own studio and things like that. The things that you can do with technology are incredible. So it'll be it'll be that idea of finding the right balance of knowing when to switch off and when to switch off. Yours can be. Want to ask you about your other creative talents that you've actually written some books as well. When did you get into writing? Is that something you always did? Or is that a sort of a new thing you discovered? No, I always did it. I as a kid growing up, when I was very, very young, I developed OCD. Like real OCD. As opposed to a lot of people will say, Oh, I'm an OCD because I have my house clean. This is more than just the OCD that actually impacts your day, your day to day activities, on and off light switches and all this crazy stuff. But I developed that as a young age. And one of the mechanisms for dealing with it was the right to take the thoughts that I had and put them into some sort of writing. So from a very young age, I used to write plays. I love writing plays and and I wrote them in primary school and secondary school and, and that writing eventually moved into stories. And then books. So actually the first book that I got published, I'd written before I even went on Australian Idol and I wrote it while I was traveling in the UK. I love it. I love writing, it's one of my favorite things is to just get lost in a story. Again, that's why I'm also passionate with with artistic things and doing that. It's great for the mind as well. So if you have you written anything like you talked about running plays, have you written anything that's been put on as a production. I went back years ago, again, when I was writing most of the plays, I had nearly all of them put on at different points. But it was also on an amateur level, little amateur drum societies. I've asked him to put it on the do table reads and actually, I've had it luckily I've had a few of them put on. And I love that. So it was just fantastic to see see these things coming to life, and then also gave me an opportunity to act on them. Yeah, so you got to live out that dream as well. Yeah, exactly. But I like to say I love writing plays. And I started off with plays because I wasn't much of a reader. I didn't like reading. So I didn't have the vocab to to really describe things. So I started off with plays and then as time went on, I got into reading and developed the you know, better language and better ways of describing things and and that led to the books. And you write fiction work? Yeah, I suppose the the books that are released so far, both fiction, one is a guy traveling through Nepal, backdrop of the most. The poor enforcement of Nepal, we myself, my wife, Eileen, we traveled through Nepal during our honeymoon. We saw how politically it was going through an awful tough time. And that was kind of an inspiration for the for the book. And it was about a guy with OCD traveling in that sort of environment. So it had little, little elements of being in there as well. Yeah. Essentially, it was a kind of psychological thriller. Yeah. And then the second book was, again, it was a had a psychological element to it, but it was about a father and a son growing up in the troubles of Ireland. And the two of them how they cope with grief and loss and also their own relationships. So again, it's more of a psychological story. But what I love doing, give me a chance to write about it. And then reminisce. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. You can sort of incorporate the two sort of fiction nonfiction together. Do you have any writing at the moment? Are you working on another book or anything? I actually I have a book. I was, I wrote another book. I'm trying to walk republishing. So this one is a kids book. Oh, cool. Yeah. So we the book is finished. We're now at the second stage of editing it. So hopefully, it'll be out later this year, or maybe the start of next year. Oh, fantastic. Are you allowed to share what it's about? Or is it a bit secretive at the moment, I can give a little idea. Now, it's, it's more in the style of Roald Dahl. And that's probably the audience I, I always told bedtime stories to my kids. And I have hundreds of these have also recorded them. So I've still got them on my phone. Oh, cool. Yeah. But along the way, there was one story, I started to tell the kids. And it ended up being one of those continuation stories where you say, oh, you know, to find out what happens next, in your bed this time tomorrow night. And I ended up recording, you know, chapters of this whole thing I listened back to about a year or so ago. And that's, you know, that could really lend itself to a good story. So I sat down and start writing it. But ultimately, it's about two sisters who get separated when when they're very, very young. They're in the care of a horrible, horrible lady who only wants to take them on board, as foster kids purely to use them to clean up or disgusting house and to slave them around the place. But in the midst of all that, they get separated. And then it fast forward to many years later. And these these kids have got to find each other. But the horrible lady still had to get them and you know, follows that sort of path. Oh, that sounds exciting. Oh, good luck with that, oh, we're looking for that when it comes out. That's fantastic. worrying, because that's what the old folks to say. You can always tell the beggar from the fee. But you know, that I love that about you. Today, to ask you a bit more about yourself as a as a father, have you found with your songwriting, since you had two kids that you've sort of changed how you write or what you write about, is it they sort of inspire you a little bit? It always inspires me? Yeah, for me Sunland, and has always been linked to personal things in my life. So all was personally driven. And definitely once the kids came along, all the songs came, you know, all the songs that I started writing had some sort of family influence, whether it be discovering that, you know, for instance, and could like a couple examples, not just for the weekend was on one of my first albums that that song was purely about my son Jagger getting to take him home from hospital. That's really what it's about. That moment of knowing that, hey, you actually get to take him home from hospital a lot of other people couldn't, for different reasons, premature babies and all sorts of situations why they couldn't bring their gorgeous little child home from hospital. But we did. And we got got to experience a beautiful moment. So I wrote a song about that. song Beautiful. I wrote about my wife, Eileen. There's a song that I've got coming out later on the year, which is first day of school. And that's all about dropping my daughter to school for the first time. And then my thoughts about Well, I had to give her away to school on that day, and I had the lever and then a password to actually keep it away on our wedding day. Yeah. Yeah. Together. Yeah. And then there's another son called Son for Jarvis. And like, literally, it states exactly who it's for. Yeah. Do the kids. Do they know that you're writing about them? Like, do they feel that sort of connection that this is really cool. But dad write songs for us? Oh, well, I don't know. Actually. Yeah. Yeah, I've never openly told him that the songs are for them. They just hear the songs and they're like them. It's funny. They're all at that stage where they've got their own interests, their own, what they like and what they what they don't like. So I never pushed music down their throats at all on any level. It's always there for them. And if they if they want to get involved, or if they want to sing or if they want to hear something. I'm there for them. But there's definitely no never any pressure for them even to listen to my songs. Yeah. Are they do they play? Are they musical? Yeah, they're all really musical. Yeah, they're there. They love acting. They're all in musicals as well, local musical societies. But they all play and they all sing as well. So it's great. It's seen it and it's great. Seeing that they just do it because they want to. Yeah, that's a big thing. I think like I grew up us for 20 years I sang in this vocal group. And we got to this age, we all started having kids around the same time. And some of the girls were like, really wanted their children to follow in their footsteps and seeing them, whatever. And I was like, Ah, I don't know, I don't think my kid would stand still long enough on stage to sing. So I never put any pressure on him. And, and even when he's like, playing music, like my husband and I both play, but that's our Do you want me to teach you anything? Or show you something? No, I don't want to. And now, all of a sudden, at the age of was about 13 and a half, how do you decide you want to play the bagpipes? So it definitely didn't come from us. It was. So I think I think it's good just to let them go and see where they end up. And yeah, even when you're really you're really passionate about music yourself. It's like you don't want to, you know, push them so much that they start to resent it, because you're always on their back about playing something. So, yeah, well, we're exactly the same. We're just like I said, it's there. If they want to learn something, if they just got a passion for something, and they want to get lessons, we try to provide that for them. But it's really over to them. They what is gorgeous to see is that they have shown interest anyway. Yeah, it is. It's crazy. Because you are saying to someone the other day on the on a recording that you just want your kids to experience music because it's so awesome. Like, you just, you just want them to see how amazing it isn't because you love it so much. It's like you want them to, to experience all the wonderful things about it to know what am I sort of? Yeah, and what it can do for your life. Because music. I mean, you know, so many hospitals use now musical music as a way of, of helping people through all sorts of traumas and all sorts of treatments, because music has that ability to raise spirits, or as we said earlier on with the Irish music, to allow you to talk about things or get your emotions out. So music is such an important thing. And if anyone can discover and discover Laufer can really help them in their life, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I sort of said to my son, like, he's at the age now where everyone's all his mates are getting jobs. And he's not quite ready for that yet, sort of, he hasn't sort of he's still organizing his way through school. Yeah, he's not quite ready to add anything else to it. But I said like what you're doing with your SyncML you with the music, like he paid plays in the local Pipe Band. It's like you're learning all those skills about cooperation and compromise and you're listening to others and you know, you can learn so much from playing music with other people. Yeah, absolutely. Being in a bounder being in some sort of organization is a great thing. Really is and you make great friends as well. So why not? Yeah, absolutely. Now take you home. Not just for the weekend. Jays days. Welcome in and I give you not just for this moment. Now, I want to mention and hopefully I'm not going to go on about this too long. I'm a massive Beatles fan. And I was very excited to talk to you about your show that you're doing the songs of Lennon McCartney to have Darren COVID So who's your favorite Lennon or McCartney? Oh, it's a controversial one, isn't it? Funnily enough when we do the show, so Darren, and I, you know, we don't it's like anything that I've done in the past. I never tried to mimic anyone. I just tried to pay homage to him. I just liked them. And I just sing their songs. That's really what it is. Yeah, I put me off when we do the show. I seem to do a lot more of the Lennon songs than I do the McCartney songs. Even though if I'm being totally honest, McCartney is my favorite. Yeah, candy is my favorite G and also your voice to you. You've got their higher voice which is sort of like older thought you'd do more of those high harmonies that Paul does. I do I do a lot of the when we perform together Darren and I, I'll take on the Paul McCartney harmonies a lot of the time but when we the individual songs, I seem to always end up on the Lenin songs. So just a just a wetlands. The way we do the show. We play guitar, but I also play the piano and I think you know, Lennon has some beautiful piano songs. So I think that's why I kind of landed there. Yeah, yeah, it's, I don't know, I was listening to some stuff this morning because I've got like, got them on my USB in the car. And it always blows my mind how they created so much and so such diversity and such experimentation but there are only active for 10 years together. You just think how how can you do all of that as a band in 10 years like that just blows my mind. It is it Amazing thing. But you know, it's an interesting thing you think of when you're in a band situation. It's so insular. It's your own little world. And if the band work really well together, I think back about when we had our family band, my two brothers, my sister myself, that was probably one of the most creative times I ever had was when I was writing nonstop, obviously not right, not writing classic like The Beatles, but the influence of being around people like that, and being around you know, other musicians who want the same thing. So when when you're driving each other to come up with great ideas. It's amazing how much actually happens. So each other and bouncing off each other and maybe competing with each other. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And it's an amazing thing. But they were they were incredible. The bagels, they it wasn't even just what the creators what they created so young as well as their insight on life was amazing for people that were essentially just kids. Yeah, like, honestly, I just think of him and I just I can't fathom how they did what they did. And then to still go on, obviously, linens no longer with us. But you know, Paul, still making music now. It's just, it's amazing. But I wanted to ask you do you have a favorite album, or I was always the White Album, where I was, and the reason being for the White Album, my brother Paul had a tape cassette of The White Album. In our little tour van. Back when we were kids gigging around Ireland. It was all stuck in there. We listened to non stop it was just so I kind of fell on that album purely because it was the only album we had in the car. I just love it and I knew every single song backwards and forwards and but I do love all the other albums rather off Sergeant Pepper's the whole the Abbey Road. They're all they're all amazing albums. Yeah, I go like White Album and revolver are my top two. They're the two that I go back and forth between the love revolver, but then they sort of there's some stuff I just think, I don't want to say they lose me on some stuff. But I just think God, they must have been having a hell of a time when they recorded some of this stuff. There is some random songs not everything was called. A lot of stuff. I mean, early albums, I think of Uber soul, but maybe not that one. The one of the the early albums where the do more of the pop songs. This, this is really only what two or three really good songs and some of those albums are for me anywhere. Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, yeah, like, was it with the Beatles, or one of those? I can see the cover of it for I can't think of what it is. But yeah, some of them you just think oh, no, I don't need to listen to this. And some of them sound so similar to it's that typical, like 12 bar blues like rock and roll sort of thing. That's just a no yeah, it was a was there was still experimenting with this sound. On the way through, yeah, but wow, they were amazing. I can't really criticize any of them. They were they were all kept with. God forbid, like Alison sits here and criticizes the betas. No, we're not gonna take no, we're not gonna do that. They knew what they were doing. Yeah, that's pretty special so one of the topics I like to talk to all my mom guest on the show, is topic of mum guilt, which we sort of say is like, you know, mums feel bad if they're not doing things for their kids or with their kids. And it's difficult to take that step away and, and do something for yourself. And I've had dads that I've chatted with on the show, it's not the same sort of thing. It's, I think, because the mother is, you know, it's ingrained in your DNA, I guess, because you, you birth for children, but I wondered if you had any thoughts on sort of yourself and I don't want to say dad guilt because I don't think it's a great term. But do you ever sort of feel that pull between wanting to be home but you know, you're doing what you love and in your career and doing whatever it? Is that something that goes on for you? Oh, absolutely. No, no, no question. I find every day is a balancing act like every single day. So it's not even just being on the road touring or anything like that. Even on a day to day basis. There's things that I would love to be doing things that I think I should be doing. But there's a lot of things that the kids need me to do as well. There's things that I need to be there for them with and it could be simple thing six months In simple things, it could be things like homework, or it could be helping them with something, it could be just listening to them. On the flip side, it could be, you know, really spending quality time with them. And you do. I think there's a point that comes in as a parent where you those sacrifices are necessary, you have to make them that it's necessary. But it's again, trying to find the balance, trying to find some way that allows you to give them as much as you can possibly give them but still be yourself and still stay intact in who you are. Because if you start losing who you are in the process, then they're not getting the full benefits of the parent that they could have. That sounds weird, but this just makes total sense. Because that's something that a lot of moms talk about, you'd feel like you literally lose yourself, because you've got to give so much to these other people. There's little, there's little people that can't do things for themselves, and they need so much support. And then your your identity literally sort of dissolves for a period of time. So yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. And sometimes your your sense of humor can disappear and things like that. And you never want that to go away. As a parent, we all fall into that role of a it's our job to guide our kids and to discipline our kids and to be the responsible person for the kids. But the kids also need that sense of humor that you have or that that childishness that you have yourself because we all still have that in us as well. Kids need that as well, then kids love that. And only we're being ourselves, do we expose the kids to those sorts of sides of our personalities? And you know, and that is, that is where the balance has to be right? You got to try and find a way to always still be you be the person that you've always been, but also been the responsible parent at the same time. Yeah, it's just a constant juggle, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And it changes nonstop. And yes, older. It's new problems, and it's new things that you got to deal with. And it doesn't get any easier. Just yeah, it gets different that CD, isn't it? Yeah. With the that's what I'm finding with my to like, with the age gap. I feel like I'm literally in two different worlds at one time, just depending on which child I'm talking to you. It's just, you know, and I guess you'd be saying, you know, 11 and 17. There's a big, big gap of life in there, isn't there? Absolutely different, different needs different, different things happening in their life? He very much she's just a young, she's 11. You know, and a lot of the things that she'll talk to me about, even though she seems sometimes I think she's a 20 year old, but yeah, but still, you know, she still has that useful way about her work. Job is on the flip side, just got his driving license to contend with, that's a whole new world that we're about to step into. Yeah, it is a new world, isn't it? Yeah. I've already told my husband that I'm not having anything to do with teaching the boys how to drive that can be his job because they just I don't think I would cope very well. No, it is nerve racking. Yeah, you know. Anyway, I'm so happy he got his license. But then on the flip side, I was only talking about earlier on this morning. The worry set in the second Oh no. Now they're driving on the road no parent around and that becomes a whole other worry. Anyway, so it works. Yes. You've just got to hope that you've instilled in them you know, the best you can to take care of themselves and others and making those good decisions and yeah, you can't you can't keep them locked up forever. So no, you can I mean back in the old days of 17 they were working at home yeah, that's so true. Yeah, absolutely no, you're just want to get the colors you borrow something the books got some big shows coming up. I I'm doing the orchestra shows. We just yeah, we just we just want to we did want to Melbourne last weekend and later on the air we're in Sydney and a camera so it's a fork so 35 people on stage with me so it's a massive massive show. So they're the big ones but I've lots of other shows coming up and and obviously the book and all the rest of there's a lot going on over the next while. Yeah. Hopefully people keep on coming to the shows and then join them. Oh, that's exciting. Now Good on you. Do you do private will you Bri The Mind if I sit here down by your graveside and rest for a while in the wound summers I've been walking no Dan, I'm nearly done. See so much for coming on Damian has been such a pleasure to chat to you and thank you for sharing all your thoughts and all the the ups and downs and ins and outs of being a dad and being a creative that yeah, thanks again. Not a problem. My pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Take care. Bye. takes 20 to say thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested if you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes

Blue Lake Carols 2014 Photo by Steve Walters Blue Lake Carols 2014 Photo by Steve Walters

Samantha Redfern British expat mixed media visual artist S2 Ep30 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Samantha Redfern is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and 3 children. Incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti, Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colour, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied fine art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolours, spray painting, and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging, on swimwear and she sells and exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in lockdown, patriarchy in art and the economics of a working artist, We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. **This episode contains discussions around low mood + miscarriage*** Connect with Samantha on instagram - https://www.instagram.com/samantharedfern.fineart/ and her website - https://samantharedfern.com/ Connect with the podcast https://www.instagram.com/art_ of_ being_ a_ mum_podcast Music used with permission from Alemjo https://open.spotify.com/artist/4dZXIybyIhDog7c6Oahoc3?si=aEJ8a3qJREifAqhYyeRoow When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bow and tick people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Thanks so much for joining me today. My guest on today's episode is Samantha red fan. Samantha is a mixed media visual artist and a British expat who has made her home in Singapore with her husband and three children incorporating symbolism such as crowns, flowers, nature, shapes and graffiti. Samantha's abstract style embodies bright colors, exuberance, fun and energy, reflecting the visual cues she notices in her daily walks around Singapore. Samantha studied Fine Art at University and has a background in photography, pastels, drawing, watercolors, spray painting and creative writing. Her art has appeared on cosmetic packaging on swimwear, and she sells it exhibits her artwork all around the world. Today we chat about using art to survive lockdown, experimenting in art, the role of women in locked down the patriarchy in art, and the economics of a working artist. We also get slightly off topic and chat about teens on social media, the stark realities of motherhood, body image and internet trolls. I hope you enjoy. This episode contains discussions around low mood and miscarriage. Welcome to the podcast, Samantha. It's so lovely to meet you today. Thank you, thank you so much for inviting me on. How did you end up in Singapore? So we so me and my husband we met at university, so I did a fine art degree. And he did maths. So you know, leads make sense? are really bad maps. What do you do? I do maps? Oh, it's perfect pairing. So yeah, we've been together since we were 18. We've been together for a really long time, had three kids. But the third one we had out here. So we I don't know. I think we were just stuck in this. This routine, like, particularly me because my husband was working in London, he only saw the kids on weekends. I was just in this, this routine of just housework, like housework and childcare. And it left me no room to even do anything. Like there was no one to look after the kids. So even in the evening, I couldn't go out anywhere or do even do like a Zumba class or something like that, because I couldn't leave the kids husband wasn't till about you know 1010 at night so really, really long days. Didn't have Netflix or anything like that. So you just end up surfing video chat, just bored. I was just really really bored and frustrated because I felt like I loved to keep part playing with the kids but actually lost who I was or any kind of ambition or motivation to seem to be non stop washing, you know folding clothes. Like all that kind of thing. Which if you are someone who loves homemaking, then yeah, sure. That's that's that's great. But for me, I never loved housework. never loved that. Yeah, you know what was it like for you as a kid? I guess not damn I've always been a massive animal lovers always had a lot of pets and have dogs and you know, love being out walking with them taking the kids for days out. But then this opportunity came along. My husband was offered a potential role overseas and it never happened. And at first I said No, good. No, I'm not moving. I'm not moving. Like what? Like, and then I just thought Why Why am I adamantly saying? No, like if opportunities come along, like, should we have that knee jerk reaction to just deny it and that I stopped thinking I thought wouldn't that be an you know, an experience or an adventure or something that opens up loads of possibility? He's we lived in a small village and Dave Days were quite similar. And then weekends was like, where do we go local garden center? b&q which is homeware store, you know, mowing the grass? I thought, why not? So we, yeah, we found an opportunity. And we moved over here, the dogs and the kids and just uprooted. And it was just the best decision. It was honestly the best decision. Yeah, wow. That's it's daunting, but exciting. You know, like, it's, you don't know what it's gonna be like when you get there. But you just go on for it. Yeah, I honestly, I just thought, I don't know, like, I will hate it, maybe will hate it. And I told everybody, we'll be back, we'll be back into the years, two years, we'll be back, we're just doing this for a little bit. And then it's six years now. You probably can't see yourself going back, probably no lifestyle who's so different, like, you know, I can run my business, I can see friends, I can do this stuff I can, if we moved back, everyone else's life would kind of be the same. The mind would change, if that's the thing in mind that would be negatively impacted the most. And I don't want to give that up. But I've been working for my business. So hard, put so much into it. And if I had to go back, and then not have time for again, and not, I just I just couldn't get couldn't literally kill part of myself off because I would desperately even feel like, yeah, fight this period of my life. And I don't want I don't want to, and everybody's so happy here. The kids are happy. And husbands super happy here. And it is hard because with COVID We've been separated. So never in a million years that I wouldn't see my parents for two years. Yeah, but life. Life happens. And it's been really tough. But it's still the right decision. A lot of expats move back home because of this because it couldn't be separated. But from a family perspective, we feel like it's the best thing to be to be out here and just hoping this goes away. Please go away Yes, I tell tell me all about your art. I know I've looked at it. I've looked at it on you online, and it's so bright and vibrant. And, and what you said, just through this conversation about you just want people to feel good and make people feel happy. And yeah, tell us all about it. I actually didn't start off by doing kind of like bright happy artwork. You know, it just kind of evolved. And I realized when we moved to Singapore, and like, there seems to be a gap in the market for abstract art for the older white walls, because most people here you're renting. This is expatriates. Or like you know, not to say most people I'm sure lots of locals but for expats and things most people are renting out here and and you get the bog standard white walls, you know, everything is white. And then people have bought stuff from home or they've left from home ash. So actually, I want something for my wars. Like you know, and I don't want something mass produced and when we're not in a position where we can just go and buy something that's like, you know, 30k or whatever. So I was like, Maybe I should do something. It's been such a while since I actually tried to paint because I'd been doing photography and I've been doing pastoral pastoral drawings and watercolors for you know, just people or myself or like my kids or pets or whatever. But I'm actually really got some paints out since university or other than getting a finger painting with the kids but in that kind of more like guess Okay, let's let's make something Yeah. And first it was like, What do I paint you know when people like can't go out and and go what Okay, so I just thought what, what do I see? And then I I walk a lot and you know, I was going out I've taken all my photos of all the tropical plants and things like that, of course color inspiration. So I was doing maybe plants and flowers, and then it evolved into my city scape series which is the combination of that Uh, the architecture here surrounded by this kind of lush tropical rainforest, the foliage. And then it evolved more into the abstract expressionists pieces with the graffiti style and the colors. So it's very much evolution, but everything kind of spins back, you know, to the beginning with the flowers and the nature and the shapes. So a lot of the shapes I use in my work, and they represent things like they still represent the buildings like a you squares a lot, which represents like humanity and a lot of ways. I've started incorporating crowns and things that was quite a recent thing. I did a breast cancer painting. It's called yas queen, and it was pink. And it's like, it's because it had boobs in their crowns in that and it's like a real like, empowering like piece. And I liked that. And that's how painting makes me feel so empowered. It's like, makes you stand out from the crowd. Like you're not just anybody. You're an artist and you're expressing yourself and that does make me feel confident. I like the reaction. You know, when people said what do you do? And you're like, Ah, I'm an artist. And I love that it makes me feel really really empowered. So the Crown's come in as that kind of symbol of like, Yeah, I'm, I'm doing my thing and I feel positive. Yeah, so that's really cool. I love that so you talked about photography in your past was have you always done a bit of art throughout your whole life? Yeah, literally, I did. From the my one of my earliest memories of preschool is one of my teacher saying, Oh, well done smells. Really, you know, you've done a good job on this. And I think, you know what, when you have positive affirmation from teachers is so important. Not all teachers are good. And not all teachers are encouraging. But when you have that it makes such a difference for a child. I've been lucky. I've had some teachers that totally dismissed me as nothing, you know, like I wasn't sporty. So the PE teachers and things they were like I always liked English. So my English teachers were always very good with me, and I like creative writing or write poems and little kids stories and things that Lance anything created for me. Yep, not sporty, crap at maths, like terrible maths, I think because it's so it's either right or it's wrong. And I don't like that. I like things that are open for interpretation. And I think with artworks, people see different things evokes different emotions in people, whereas Yes, some I'm sure it does, because for some people who love math, they get very excited about equations. But for me, like, No, I don't have a massive brain. Just honestly awful. And then I did it for my GCSE. So I did art design. And then I went on to college. And I did basically a double A level in art and design, which is great, because basically spent most of the time doing art. I did English as well. So I did a level English and I did this double. A level. I loved it, because I think this is what made my practice kind of what it is now because I'm really experimental. I like to try different things. So people were like, Okay, you're doing this now, or you're done this, but for me, that's what should be. It shouldn't be like, Oh, I've nailed something, someone's bought it. I'll just do 1000 of these until I die. It's more. Okay, what else can we do? And I had this teacher called Yuna, and she was always like grass. Nice. Happens If you stick this on it, you know? And that was her attitude. It's like yes, that's a nice painting. What can we do to really make it not just a nice painting but as something, you know, elevated somehow. And that's exactly how I've approached my my work and I started doing the mixed media staff and I love it now. I find it really hard not to stick stuff on my work when I'm painting through this across so spray paint Tanner just just cover it in it. You know, I think when you're not scared of ruining a piece, it enables you to really kind of like, let let go and I think that society can be so so rigid and we're doing our same routine means and for me, it's like this, this big release of energy and everything is just getting a canvas, big canvas, like working big and then just going to town on it, you know, it's so releasing, and anybody can do it. Anybody can do, it doesn't have to be something that's gonna go and hang in the Tate Modern or whatever. It's just part of tapping into yourself and that primitive urge that so many of us have, like with singing or music or dancing, or, you know, whatever, we have this urge to express ourselves. Yeah, absolutely. So you've mentioned just in passing just a little bit about your kids and their ages. Can you tell us a bit more about about your kids? Yeah, so I've got a 12 year old daughter, and yeah, I was 20. I was 26, when I had her. So that's actually like, quite young by today's standards. I didn't, I didn't feel overly young. And in fact, I'm glad I had event because I had a kid later as well. So I've got a four year old. And, wow, your bodies are so much more tired, so much more time in your 30s then it is in your 20s Now, I don't think everybody has to like make decisions based on you know, where they are in their life and like, you know, the situations and circumstances. And for us, we got married quite young. So we were married at 24 I think we just kind of thought, shall we, you know, as so many people do, when you think about having a family kind of tends to be a bit you know, can be a bit of a like a showy, and, you know, worked out everything you don't expect it not to though, with your first you don't expect it you don't have any decent day you don't know any different you don't know about troubles with conception or miscarriages or things like that. You just expect you're pregnant. And it'll go it'll be fine. It's quite a nice easy breezy pregnancy. But with with her like I was working so I had a sales job. And I wanted to make a lot of money so that I could have comfortable maternity leave. So I basically had loads of orders coming in and coming through get the Commission's that in my head, I was like if I go for coffee and a cake or like, you know, want to treat myself to something that's all on I'm paid for it. So I'm not going to be like a financial burden by not, you know, not working and then costing extra. Yeah. But then I wanted to go back and I tried to get that but our company was bought out by someone else. And then my job wasn't there anymore. And they said you just keep applying, like through the portal. And so I was applying for jobs. I mean, I probably shouldn't have to apply for finance director, you know, didn't really have that that credentials, but the salary looks really attractive. It's like sure, I'll go back to 90k. But I tried anyway, I did. I did try. And then we got pregnant with my middle child, my son. So there's literally one month off three years between them. And yeah, I had a miscarriage in between two, I think two in between. You know, so I know then when you have that, that other pregnancies you learn that it's not always plain sailing, and it's not always, you know, given that you just get pregnant and then just have babies. But yeah, so having having taken this when I had a call from a company, it's like coming back to work. I was like, Well, you know, I'm kind of pregnant and they're gonna have another baby, baby. And then with with him, I did the maths of what I would go back to salary wise, what it would cost me to commute to work what it would cost me to have lunch or coffees or get binding work. rope, you know, and then car petrol maintenance childcare. Yeah, I would have made literally like a couple of grand like once you subtract it or taking home that 2000 pounds. That looks so good. You know, that's not like a month. Yeah. I just don't, actually we're okay. Without my salary. We've managed, you know, we've managed voluntary redundancy, which helped and, and then, so we're okay, we just keep living the way we're living. And then I stay at home with the kids and my husband, you know, he was working long hours. And of course, he would have encouraged me to go back to work, or he would have supported me like, whatever, it was very much my decision. But he did like that I'm there. For the day taking photos, I'm there firsthand with the kids, I can tell him, you know, the little stories or showing the little video clips of what the kids did during the day, rather than coming back, you know, knackered in the evening, and then just hearing it from the childcare. So we were very privileged and very fortunate that could have done that. But everything is positive always has a negative because of course, I stepped away from the corporate world. So I could been climbing and carried on climbing the ladder. Do you take that sacrifice in a lot of ways to spend time with the kids? And then also, remember it you know, it did benefit them hugely. If they don't remember those years, then you get those comments, but daddy works really hard, you know, and that was kind of really annoying. Yeah. You just you just do this. I mean, you just, you know, get the Hoover out. And it's like, okay, okay, you know, you get the credit. You don't get the credit and you feel like you should, you should be like I'm doing everything you know, and I'm not getting paid. I'm like free. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, I actually had my I was putting away some washing the other night, my eldest? No, my little one, I've got a I've got a 13 year old and a six year old. My little one says, Mum, why are you always the one that does the washing? And I said, that's a very good question. Digby, why is that? And he goes, cuz, cuz you just have time. And I said, Well, maybe I don't have time. Maybe this is something I have to fit in amongst everything else I'm doing. So why should I be the one that and it got me thinking. And I thought, this is the first time in all these years anyone's actually said that, you know, like, I had this conversation with a, a mum through this podcast. And she said, I don't remember having the conversation with my husband, when I decided I would do everything with the children said, it's just a thing that that society expects, you know, it was like, I'm expected to give up my job. I'm expected to give up my art, my body, my life, you know? And it's like, well, you wanted kids. So there you go. Like, it's just this, this thing that happens to us. And there's what besides? society isn't very sympathetic. I see this when I read comments. I never read comments, don't read comments. It's like a horrible rabbit hole where you just think oh, my God. Yeah. The age old debate about parent child spaces. Yeah. Can I ask them in Australia, right. So I didn't realize the importance until I had kids. And you realize that actually, and even being pregnant as well, because it was a situation I couldn't get into my car. Because somebody parked and I had this massive bump, I couldn't actually get into my car. But then with kids getting them out, but then you understand that you need to open your doors wider to be able to get car seats in and out and strap your kids you need to get right in there struggling and then people like you asked you to have kids. It's not our fault if you shouldn't get special treatment. And it's like, oh my god, do you not understand how society carries on? So what if we all just went on strike? Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah. Then what? Then society collapses? Yeah, the, you know, no one said to pay, who pays people's pensions? We're doing this a good job, we're doing a service. And if we do a good job raising our kids, those better it all in and raise these nice people to nice people that are going to society. And that that isn't just done to me, and it's not like, well, then I've had you, I can just leave you alone. And then you'll grow up to be an outstanding member of society. It takes a huge amount of work. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing of that. Yeah. Someone else said said the words that, that people forget that we are literally raising the next generation like we are. We are, whatever we do, and how we do it affects how society is going to be, you know, 2030 years down the track. You know, so what we do has so much value, but because it's not a monetary and monetized thing, that value just disappears or dissipates. It's just not valued. I know I don't I don't I'll be back on tick tock This is an interesting topic, this, the last three mums that I've spoken to have, we've all gotten to this, this topic about the way that the mums have been shafted, basically through through COVID. It's yeah, we're the first ones to go and the least appreciated, but, you know, doing the the really hard emotional work, but, you know, that's just what you got to do. Society just expects that and one of the mums said, because she was selling her artwork, it made her and her husband as wealth feel like it was a legitimate job. She said, if I was just doing my art, for me, just as a, you know, something fun, or something I enjoy to do, it wouldn't have been important enough to keep doing, you know, so it's also that monetary value that we have to play some things important. Yeah, that's what he does. Because it says that you're, you know, if you're a big roller, then you're successful. And it doesn't eat. I mean, success is totally subjective, anyway, because Am I successful? Only if I earn crazy amounts of money, like, you know, and these artists are doing credibly? Well, not definitely not the, the the rule, they're the exception to the rule and female artists to get to that point. It's pretty much impossible, because society still banks on the male artists, so can we go to auction? It's always the male artists, these their works are going off for billions. You know, women tend to get that that look in. And until society changes if it ever changes. Because every time we go in the right direction, something comes along and it sets us back. Yeah, thank you. With COVID Set women back climate change the people, they said the people that suffer, suffer the most with that will be women so so we keep we keep bouncing back. And we try and we don't we don't give up. Keep keep going. And but yeah, it's I don't know what your success I feel successful. Because I'm doing something that I that I enjoy, I want to make money from it. And I need to really, because otherwise, how am I going to pay for my materials or whatever. That's what we do is this kind of unpaid work. Because when you're self employed, everything that you're doing your your Instagram, and then people who will say, Oh, you're just messing around on Instagram, it's like, I'm actually not like, I'm a marketing, you know, professional. You know, it and to be that person I looked into, like, how much it costs to get someone involved in all that kind of stuff. It's expensive. So doing all this stuff myself to cut cut costs. And yeah, when people like somebody laughed, I said, I was expensive to be an artist and somebody laughed. I went, No, it really is. Yeah, and that's the mentality isn't it? That's how they that's what they think it's like, what what you're just you're just fluffing around, doing whatever. Yeah. That people have in their minds. Yeah. And they don't realize when they see something sell and they go whoa, money bags, and like you don't realize how many cameras I've bought, how much paint I've bought, you know, my studio I rent it's like these these things that I'm putting in and I still not I'm still not making huge profits or no I'm keeping enough and making enough so that I can my business going. Like if for whatever reason, I suddenly had to be the main breadwinner. I couldn't do this full time you know, I'm not making enough that I can be like sure guys are pay the rent our payment, you know, our buy the food shopping. Honestly, I couldn't I want to get points and that's what I'm working towards. So that's my goal. Like, okay, I can keep my business going now. But I want to get to the point and I think I'm entitled to get to the point of doing this that I can be like I'll pay the bills you know, I'll put food on the table like yeah, you know yeah won't be good on Yeah. I don't think it's like unrealistic or like, you know, unjust a one. Be saying and kind of have that motivation to try you know, try to do it. Yeah, absolutely not good for you Yeah, I think everyone's really had enough of this pandemic. Oh, God, just so depressed. I think it stems my work through through the pieces. Like I then kind of went through this rebellion, because it's so like, you know, unhappy like, I'm not really I'm not a really upbeat person all the time. Like, I'm a Pisces, so I am like, one minute I'm like, I love everybody. I've already is amazing. And next is just like, oh my god, yoga new Mommy, you know, is this changes like, I do get bouts of like feeling low and feeling down and things like that. But I'm, I'm, I'm an optimist. So my husband's like, the more pessimistic and I'm always like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Let's do it. But I do get down, not just constantly high on life. And I did find it really hard. Because so many of my plans were canceled as well. And I didn't want to feel down because I was like, How dare I, you know, people are really suffering. Yeah. And I kind of thought, actually, I am entitled to acknowledge that I feel down, like, singing from the rooftops. And like, you know, so Oh, woe is me. But like, just to allow myself to actually acknowledge I feel a bit a bit low and a bit disappointed. And I think disappointment is the hardest emotion to deal with. But as a kid as well, like kids, yeah, you're going to Disneyland all of a sudden, you're not going to do that. That is such a hard that's such a hard emotion and it doesn't get any easier as you're an adult. Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And you tell yourself, you should deal with this. You're grown up, you know, but you still like things you just say actually disappointed. You flying to all these places, or these countries and doing these shows, and they're like, Wow, this is gonna launch me I'm gonna be there. And the same goes to me, who am I gonna meet different artists, galleries, different whatever. And it's like, knowing you're not going anywhere. You're staying in Singapore for two years. But I guess the The upside to that is no one else is going anywhere. So it's not exactly and I just channeled it or reversed it. And I went through Blue periods. I did people who followed them for a while remember, I just like non stop blue stuff. This has been locked down to begin with, as I blue blue, like depressed blue. And then I just like no, do you know what I can't if I'm not dealing with it? Color. And that's when like, I just believe she rebelled. And I made these like, obnoxiously cheerful, like pieces. It's a kind of like fingers up to like that kind of down feeling. I was like, No, I'm gonna surround myself with these joyful colors and joyful things. And we were in our house right in our house can't leave anywhere. It's had all these paintings all over the walls that hung everywhere. And it was so nice having that I realized people realize being at home, they should have more art. You know, when you're stuck. Actually having just some piece, it makes you feel cheerful and makes you feel good, honestly, does change your space. And if you wake up to that and see if it doesn't lift you as well, you feel like calm surrounded by something beautiful, something positive. And it has that effect on your mood instantly, instantly. Yeah, absolutely. It's like you've decided that the outside world's going to hell, but that's fine. Because in my space, everything's lovely food and I'm creating, you're making, you're making it what you want it to be control. I think a lot of people when you feel out of control, you want to harness some control, right. And this happens a lot of the time, there was a period of time where we were all just completely out of control. And I think when you can control some element of your life, it brings you some kind of relaxation, some kind of safety as well, so I can't control this. And particularly as we were we're a family of five and the rules were all like, you know groups of two, so you'd get out or you know, or one and I had a toddler so my youngest is four. So in the height of Dan, who's two years old, like so full of energy and take him to his little preschool will take Come to like, all these indoor playgrounds, you can run around and just burn off that energy. All of a sudden, he can't leave the house and it's like, wow, the odor to them all right, they were already into like gaming and that kind of thing. They could entertain themselves pretty much. Having having a toddler is like a whole new. Yeah. You want to go out you want to let them run out. And they're also worried about like them not getting any vitamin D or anything. Yeah, we've had a balcony we weren't even allowed outside. So this is how bad it was. And we don't have a garden because we're in a like a what they call here Cluster House, which is like multiple units with shared you know, shared pool shared shared gardens. So because you don't own it we weren't even allowed to go outside like no remaining your property no bounce no balcony. No you know anything so it was really tough. Oh, that's horrible. Well, we because we were in what they call a condo before and I'm so glad at least we moved to this house because now we're kind of more separated and then my husband could still work without everybody being in basically one room because how stressful is that? Because if you've got some need some new trying to do a job and then you've got shouting kids and then you're the one that can also I didn't want to because women really suffered during this because awesome their work if it what weren't paid enough, you know, you're not the breadwinner, your your job has to take that slip, you know, and this was what happens how we ever supposed to catch up if we can't do it, you know, who keeps in cold all yours is just a sideline, yours is a hobby, yours is, you know, doesn't in the big bucks was never going to bring the big bucks is it it's always a sideline exam. You never get the chance to know exactly, it's always that whole first sign of trouble. You've got to, you've got to look after the kids but my husband, he's, he's very, he's very good, strangely FC, or he's very good. You know, he, he doesn't ever try and dismiss my, my job what I do as a sideline or hobby. And, yeah, he's really supportive. And he's got a huge amount of belief in me. And I think that makes such a difference or in a partnership. And it works both ways. Because I've always supported him, you know, as well. So it goes it goes both ways. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mum, Alison Newman. You talked about doing your pastels and your watercolors and stuff. Were you doing that while the kids were little like we able to do any of this for when my daughter was born. And the first like year of life, I think for maybe my son, I didn't do anything. Honestly, I took photos always had like an SLR camera. And I just like to go out and do that. I took loads of pictures and kids and all that stuff. But I literally had no time. And I told me about your recurrent dream where we we had a house. And one day I just discovered this door. I opened the door. And it's this whole wing like of a house like this stuff that we didn't even know we had. And it's like, oh my god, wow, when did we get ballroom? This house, this house was so important. And you just like I had this dream so often. And I'm looking into it and doing a bit of research. And they say it's when you're there's a part of yourself that you're ignoring and neglecting and it's there the whole time going. Come on, come discover me. And it made total sense. And like because this is I've done I've literally shut myself off. My interests, my creativity just was like just not being utilized. I used to tell my kids stories and made them up and that kind of thing. So it was creative in different ways. But in terms of actually physically creating an art piece. It was totally neglected. And then I took a picture of the kids and I thought just to make such a nice drawing makes it such a nice truck. And I just got pastels and I drew it. And what's really nice, like, it's really nice, I haven't done anything so long. That's really pretty. We framed it and, and then it's kind of just started me doing that. So I use my daughter all the time as like my muse and I did little drawings and then other people in the village was like, Oh, can you do my kids? Can you do my dog? And can you, you know, deal with this. And then that started the business in its early infancy. So that when I came to Singapore, I registered business care, because I was enjoying doing that it wasn't bringing in much money, because it's, it doesn't at that point. And I did it for again, businesses, friends, people, paying you to do the other kids, family, whatever. And that gave me some confidence. And also, yeah, like a little bit of extra income, like, you know, but it wasn't really ticking the boxes in terms of letting loose creatively, because when you're doing someone's kid, you can't suddenly be like, Oh, I'm gonna stick. Goodbye row on there. Doesn't look like my child. And so you it's very much formulated, you've got to grid it out, you've got to play it, it's got to look like the person you're drawing because that's the whole point of those kinds of paintings. Okay, but does it really identify? Like me as well? Just like, is it stand out? Is it recognizable? Because the next part of being an artist is, is developing a style and your style can change. It doesn't have to be this is my style. Now I'm good. I'm staying with this stuff ever. You look at the Masters look at the artists and history with their work isn't the same thing replicated? Like basically carbon copy for that wherever you've artists that do everything like installations. Her like your customer, right? So she's, she's got photo photo, she's got installations, she's got painting she's got, but you don't have to pay for your creativity. You can really, yeah, like circumnavigate the whole, the whole spectrum and, and just give things a go. I've done pottery. I've never done that. late, so I was like, Yes, I'm gonna sign up for a pottery course. Like, you know, why not? What things can you learn? You just learned different, different things about your, you know, your capability. I mean, I'm, I'm not going to do pottery going forward. I think at first I thought I was had this romanticized idea that it'd be super easy, like just throwing pots. And then I imagined painting them in these colors. And I just kind of thought, Yes, I'm going to do this, this is going to be my thing. And it's like, I didn't really shit I still carried on, because I'm a truck. And I've got some nice pieces around the house. But yeah, it's not. It's not for me, I find it to just like what painting gives me which is the freedom that desperately I don't like being restricted or following a formula, which is, you know, pottery and things like that. It's, it's an exact kind of science. And there's a, there's an exact kind of way to do it. And I've got a huge respect for them. But also, it just takes so long. Needed clay out, then you could, you know, you'd roll in spinning it and pull it and then you've got to wait for it to bisque and then you've got to glaze it and you've got to fire it. So takes weeks to get one piece you know, can roll out a massive canvas, like huge canvas, and just spend the day slapping paint on it and like, you know, building the app and in terms of maybe, I mean, I'm an instant gratification person to work on this that's it, I need to take my time. Rather than expect to come out at the end of the day with something workable, you know, that's very interesting. In practice a lot of yoga and one of the terms they they say, if you hate a particular pose, and that's the one you need to work on, because that's the one that's challenging you might not be physically but mentally so there you go. Yeah. Might be that might be your, your thing. Impatient as far as like, I've got no patience at all I hate queuing. Like, you know, I hate that kind of thing. I'm really, really patient like as a person. So yeah, but I've started doing yoga as well. Have I need it because I'm so I'm so uptight. I'm like the real kind of wound, tightly wound kind of person. And I've got issues with this because it causes me physical pain, like I clench my teeth, or Yeah, yeah. And just my neck pain is awful. I've been having physiotherapy for it for ages. And some days, it's so bad, it just gets me really, really down because it's horrible living in constant like constant pain. And then it puts me off going to the studio, because when I go to the studio, I spend a lot of time on like Cantonese, I do that and then when you're scaring in one position a lot of time as well. And then, you know, I ended up putting my neck more sometimes after a lengthy day, in this year, so I'm like, Okay, well, I've got yeah, I've got my mouth God, now we're running out of time, this and that. And now I'm like, Brad, I need to do yoga, I need to find that harmony, that relaxation and just learn to focus on doing that. And not constantly Oh, I better check Instagram, Oh, I better do this. I'm going to upload to this I'm gonna do that already should be painting or I should do this or I should do some exercise you just little you know, there's so many things. I can just sit in my head. I'm like, promotional guy. I love it. And I started doing outdoor yoga. Last year, I've had a number of health problems, which has stopped me from getting into into it, I want to and I think the motivations there. So just just life keeps getting in the way. But they do the outdoor class at the botanical gardens. And I'd say I love walking. So for me that is my exercise. I don't like the gym, I don't enjoy any of that. I like just walking, taking photographs, like just getting out in nature, quite often on my own, just just the solitary you know, stop, I'll have a coffee on my own like love it, I find that really, really relaxing. So I started doing this outdoor yoga class outside. And the rigor itself was fun, like it's nice. My favorite bit was last bit when they get you to lie. And maybe had these like ice cold flannels that you put maybe your face and you just lay there, like totally exposed because there's there's everything there like, you know, otters and monitors are watching over you. You're like you don't get attacked. And it just that was just the best moment like that because people don't find that cyclic, quiet, solace, just pure relaxation in our day to day lives. Really? We don't really Yeah, that's it my daughter is 12 and she's not allowed Instagram. And the reason I say that is because for me my my algorithm knows I'm only interested in art accounts. So my home my home page and my explorer page is like just basically ours. They do still sneak in some celebrities you know I've heard is that you know the Spider Man guy and stuff like that I'm showing an interest in in that but it seems to be really really pushing that I should be interested in Yeah, I'm sure there's like the big companies must pay to be able to get their stuff on that that Explore page because this stuff comes up about like to say I've because I'm I love Star Wars. So Adam Driver, like from the actor from Star Wars. Any movie that he then is in it comes up with the trailers of that and I'm like, like, I love Star Wars. I don't necessarily love this guy, but I like to tell but they're trying to like, you know, Lady Gaga or come up because he was in a movie with her. She's that's it, her and the guy from Star Wars. You're right, that he's all over my school page. I've got like three stars, but I don't mind because I do actually watch the hairstyle stuff. So I'm like, Yeah, fine, like I do. I do like his posts. I'm like, It's fine. I don't I'll watch them because I'm quite happy to have art and Harry Styles on my school page nine with my daughter when my daughter borrowed my phone. She started looking at this was like about a year ago. I think she was a kid these row, you know, row bucks, whatever. It's all very robust. Alright. And she was looking at some room examples or something. And then I looked at my Explore page, and then all of a sudden, it's full of women. We mean, you know, little clothes and things like this acid, this is the problem. Like, you've looked at that and it's gone. What does the person who's looking at this want to look at? Or if they don't wanna look at but what you know, and then it's such a unrealistic female body types and things like this, and I use it as a, as a way to have a discussion, you know, with her about these filters, because I'm guilty of doing it too, right? Yeah, not every like, not every post I put on my feed is, is 100% natural with no no lighting tweaks or something like that. But like, Come on, we live in a day and age and there's nothing wrong with trying to show your flattering, you know, more flashy stuff. Some of them are just want to say then there's nothing on there. There's no filter. It's just done straight from my thing. Because, yeah, I'm not trying to sell cosmetics or whatever. It's my artwork. Yeah. But then, hopefully, if I'm doing a real or something, then what? Yeah, I'm guilty. Yeah, that's the thing, too. Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to look the way that you want to present yourself, either. Like, I had some photos done recently, because I'm releasing a new album next year, or hopefully this year. And I got some photos done and, and the lady that did them is like a proper portrait photographer. So she's telling me like, put your chin out and drop it down, and then lean forward and all this. And I'm like, I know, I'm going to look, I'm going to look better, because my double chin is not going to come out. Like this is okay. Because this is I mean, it's a it's a technique, I suppose to make you look more appealing, I don't know. And I thought when I was doing it, I thought is this bad, but I'm not just standing like a normal person. And he said, we get shamed into doing this. This is the thing that you say you're guilty if and Badgett and I always if someone says, You look great, I'm the first one to say it's a filter, you know, and I think we've got to stop doing that. Because the the celebrities or whatever the Instagram influencers, they're not being forthcoming with that information. Yeah. And that's the thing, like, even the amount of airbrushing, like I didn't realize too, I don't know how long ago when, maybe 10 years ago when all this big thing come out about the airbrushing that we're using in magazines and all that I was just like, Ah, so they're not that perfect. Like, you know, you have this moment of you think that because you cuz I don't know, they there's these these people that exist in the world that are absolutely flawless, you know, but maybe, maybe they're pretty good, but no one's absolutely perfect. You know, when you zoom right into your pores like no one is that perfect. That's the thing with the models and things like that in your teen magazines and we didn't have internet when I was little we had all these teen magazines are just 17 all that kind of stuff right? Read that but they would airbrush all the girls have these flawless skin and now you're like 1415 with a breakout and you know with a Tash? And it's like, well, where's, you know, where are these people and I just an anomaly, but then you're looking around your friends at school and you're like, yeah. But I'm saying that too. Like when I had these photos time, the photographer asked me if she wanted, she said, Do you want me to airbrush out some of you? You know, yeah, it's close feed or whatever. And I was like, no, because that's me, you know, like, I don't know, I just felt like, okay, you can make me look more flattering. Physically, that's fine, but don't take away my character. You know, like, that's, you know, all these guys into my art and my creating, like, if I hadn't experienced life, I wouldn't have these lines to show it and I wouldn't have the story. I know it is. It is hard. And when you put your face on something, say like your music, it's a bit like a book cover. In a way, you know, somebody's gonna look at your album. And now the first thing they'll judge you on isn't by the contents because they can't see it. They can't hear it. You know, they don't know. They might not know your backstory There literally is like taking that first image of you and making that decision if they want to press play on the you know, on a thing or I don't know Do people CDs anymore? I don't know. I still get them printed. But yeah, I mean, this is the thing like that's, this is the photo, right? So that's it. That's what they see. From that they have to decide if they like my music or not. Yeah, likely they have bad luck like it though. I like that. It's really nice. It's really approachable. It's an approachable photo, you know? And if that I don't, I haven't listened to music, but Um, now I would get that it was more uplifting so you're not like a sole key like I don't know you might be but from that Yeah, I think it's like kind of more like uplifting rather than yeah depressing doom and gloom that's that's you look at you go you're like the Analyze of this and that's it think as a woman we are totally judged on more of our appearance and like you can't win because honestly, if you show too much flesh, you're told that you're selling out or you're doing this. If you're too conservative, then you frumpy and, and, you know, I had a negative I don't get trolled, like I might do after this. But I don't get out. You know. I think and I'm not controversial. I don't have like, I don't share strong opinions or strong views. I keep it like, no politics, no religion. No, you know, because it's not, that's not what my my painting is about. It's about making people happy rather than provoking or, you know, any kind of I got trolled. A while ago, the photo was new. And I live in Singapore, right? It's hot, it's sweaty. I live in shorts. And like needle, I have a little you know, singlet tops or little T shirts. Because it's boiling. It's like 33 degrees. And hardly anybody wears anything. It's just day to day. And the photo I was in, I was just wearing what I was wearing that day. So I haven't got changed or done anything special for it. Just what this is what I've been wearing. While I've been painting, I'll just sit in front of it and take picture. Somebody wrote, Wow, good job setting back women painters, 50 years. But the thing is, didn't realize their comment is setting. That is not me, because there's a word entitled to wear whatever I want. But also wearing Sports Shorts. You go to a fitness page, like are these women getting like, you know, they're wearing a sports bra? I wasn't wearing a sports bra. But if I was, you know, I'm allowed to. And I think a comment like that just shows where that person is in their mentality. Like this, they are in this in their being they are the ones holding it back because they continue to think like that, you know, they made a decision to see you like that because that's how they're feeling about it. You know, I was strange because it wasn't it wasn't a sexual but even if it was, but it wasn't. But you know, it's like still like, it's my prerogative. I mean, if a woman wants to show her body, it's like it's up. It's up to them. I'm not going to go through and the Internet, I'd be there for weeks. You know, just being negative comments on anybody who's scantily clad for for male, female, or transgender whatever, there's so much flesh on display on Instagram. But if you're looking for that, I wouldn't say Come to My Account changing tack just slightly I want to ask you about the concept of mum guilt. I mean, we call it mum guilt here. I don't know if you have the official hashtag mum guilt over there. But yeah, have you come across that sort of interview with your art like that taking that time for yourself? Do you have those feelings of I should I should be with the kids or that kind of stuff? Yeah, actually, when I started painting that property painting, I waited until the kids were in bed. It's like, you know, painting till like midnight. Because I was high choir. I don't want it to take away my time with the kids. So I was Yeah, I was doing it cramming in. So instead of time where I should have been probably relaxing. It was like now I've got to gotta create content. Keep going in on these things, it's quite good in a way because you know, you have to create content. So it pushes you to make that schedule and make sure you're showing up so it stops you kind of slipping away and think, Oh, I'm a bit busy at the moment. It's just taking some time finding some time because you don't even have to do anything massive or spectacular. Honestly, like I do. arted this year doing abstract faces, right and small with a three paper. And I'm just doing them as this busy extended visit this year, I got lots of stuff coming up and government wisdom teeth out this week I know I'm going to be, you know, I'm not going to be able to go into the studio and do massive pieces and things that I'm gonna have to take easy. So, I mean, my three paper and some paints here, I can find some time to do something. Small, and weed. Now the kids are older, and so they're all at school and stuff. So it don't feel the guilt. But when I was in traveling, this has nothing to do with guilt. Right? So he's kind of all but if I do this show, and I go, Well, I'm gonna be way I'm gonna be in a different country away from my kids. Whereas Yeah, if you're, if you're a man, that's your job, you just travel a lot. I'm not saying they don't also, you know, don't feel guilty, because it'll be a lot of men that travel and they don't want to, you know, they didn't want to, but you know, whatever to go wherever the money is, and whatever. But yeah, you do feel that, oh, I'm away from my kids, I'm gonna rush back and get back, you know, get back to the kids and, like, whatever. But what makes it all worth it, it will not be worth it. It's like how, when they're over it now. But when I first started when I started selling, they were so proud. And they're so excited. And they only tell the teachers on my mom's and our tears. There's a middle son's was asking me if I'm famous yet. Many YouTube subscribers, you know, people have an audience. I'm like, No, I don't have that. I'm not I'm not famous. You know, it's different, different measurements, but I like that now they have that. But now if I sell it, okay to my daughter, I'm still going to be like yeah, it's good. That's something you know, and, and inspiring debt to, to be more creative. And I think then growing up in a household that has a lot of art is a really nice, really nice way to grow up like books as well. It's shocking how many, how many houses don't have any books, we have loads of books and art, I think, super important. None of us are that musical. I wish we were I wish we were I never learned an instrument. I feel like probably not going to now. The ship has sailed. Kids do music at school. And apparently, my daughter's quite promising. Her teacher was saying that she's you know, she's just showing some, some promise and music. Because it would be nice if one of them did something musical, you know, just got the clarinet out or something that's like just careful what you wish for my son is learning the bagpipes. So yeah, at the moment, he doesn't have a bag at home, but he has the charter. So we'll be watching the television. And he will just walk down the passage and just stand there in the lounge. Like I'm putting on a show right now. And my husband, I'll just be like, Hi. But yeah, sort of saying careful what you wish for because you end up with that clarinet in your head at four o'clock. Who isn't gonna change things? We're not like, Wait, we're not really really super pushy parents either. Because my mom and dad are so laid back like so laid back. They never pushed us to do anything. Yeah, he's on with it. And I think it's quite good. Because I think self motivation is really important. And if you're having every aspect of your life and managed, you don't have that it's like oh, now it's guitar lessons. Now it's Chinese now. It's extra maps. It's like, yeah, you're not allowing yourself to ever have a moment of what shall I do with my life? Like what should i How should I entertain myself? There's always things that you think you should be doing, like you know, I joined Tik Tok and YouTube and then and Twitter and then there's just not enough minutes in the day to do them to just do them all. We just never do anything. Yeah, I basically I stick to I love eating grant, that's my favorite social medium. And I did, I looked at tick tock and I thought, Oh God, I could spend all day just looking at stuff on here and not do anything else. So you do, obviously, I stopped, I've stopped looking at it. Because the algorithms, they know what you kind of want to look at. And then if you look at a few videos, then it was just showing me non stop videos that were making me kind of angry. And it's like, Oh, this isn't this is what the problem was some social media is that it does that doesn't it? And it can make you kind of feel angry about something. And I'm like, I don't want to be watching this and feeling angry chick leaves, you tend to scroll just before you go to sleep. Yeah, and then filed up, you know about issues to do with women, because he knows it's like, it's like, oh, she's got some feminist, you know, feminist views. So give her like, non stop feminist stuff. And then I'm just getting really angry and like, you know, the damn The thing is like, with kids, like no one really prepares you either for what your support is like, and I really struggled. I'm somebody who really enjoys alone time, like, you know, very comfortable in my own time and my own space. And if I'm with people all the time, drives me just insane. I just need some time to just be away for people not talk. And like a very social antisocial person. But then all of a sudden, you've got something with you 24 hours a day. And, and you know, I've never had a baby, I remember them sending me home with her. And I was like, hey, what, you know, I've never had one. All right. Me, me. What happens, you know, needs medical attention. And is that feeling was like, well done. Good job. Off you go. Yes, your person to take home. It's so crazy. And you're going from being able to go to the loo and have a shower and a coffee or just whatever, go to Sainsbury's or you know, a supermarket and just browse the home, or items or whatever. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, my god, get in there now get go, go, go, go go grab the essentials, and cheese screen read off because she's suddenly decided she's starving. Then you've got to drop the trolley and then run off to find somewhere. It's like, your bow. I mean, it's just completely different. Just just just like that overnight. Yes, completely. Yep. It's like, Yeah, I had this feeling when I when I left hospital. I thought you saw that I can? Am I Am I okay, doing this? Like, do you don't want to like vet me to make sure it's okay that I can actually do this. Like, if you were adopting, you'd have to add it. So assumption that you'll know what to do. I'm in with this woman. I was because I was very. Yeah, I hadn't been around a lot of kids. When I had my first child. I didn't really know what I was mean, no one knows what they're doing. But I literally didn't know what to do. And I was barfing give gave the baby's first bath. And I was like, have like, how do I wash him? Like, what? Like, how hard do I press? Like, what do I do? And this nurses, just listen to your intuition. You'll know what to do. And I thought, no, but I actually don't know what to do. With you, they're meant to show you in the hospital was like, Oh, no. And there was this, oh, my God, this thing, this sign? Because like, I'm a very, like, I like to know, structure. And like, I'm not as bad now. But when I had when I had Alex, it was like, I wanted to know what was going to happen. Like, what might what to expect with this kid? Like, how's it going to work? How often do I feed him? How long is he going to be sleeping for? And this nurse said to me off every baby's different? And I thought, well, that's a great answer, isn't it? That tells me nothing. And then it's true. Is true, because some of them sleep. Some of them don't. Some of them get colleagues, some of them. It wasn't until I started to work, I work start to work in childcare when Alex went back to school. And I just went, Oh my gosh, now I understand that. She told me but at that time, I just wanted someone to tell me what to do. And of course, no one can tell you what to do. Because no one knows what your kid's gonna be like. I didn't read any of them books either. You know, I just I'm just like, Jenny, what? They don't want to be stressed out by schedule. I'm not somebody who's a brace schedule. I'm totally unscheduled, you know, into the point where it's like, I forget what my schedule is all the time. So I get phone calls. Aren't you supposed to be here now? I'm like shared So I didn't want to be worried about like, Fiji, which I'm Devon and then this time, and it wouldn't have worked with Isla anyway, because I pretty much gaffer taped her onto my chest all day, because that is just what where she wanted to be, and I just didn't do anything else. And my husband would take her so I could just get a break. Yeah, it's like, because as soon as she's on me, she was just routing routing routes all the time. Like, me, basically, is that like a giant passerby? Yeah. Like, it's like, can you have it for a bit and he was so good in the way that he would always as soon as he was there, we would take her and, and it always allowed me to get some rest. I mean, he couldn't do the night feeds. They just refuse. We tried. We tried. I tried, like, you know, the bottles and things just so I could. I was woken up anyway. And I'm somebody, I'm awake. It takes me a really, really long time to get to sleep. So I could then hear him struggling to try and get her to have it and I'm just not it's just not worth it actually, because it's not it's not getting anywhere. I'm not getting any more rest and it's just as as a mommy, you have that. It's a horrible trigger, isn't it? That when you feel hear your baby crying is a primitive, primordial like anxiety that you just triggers like now I can hear a newborn baby crying I'm like Oh, my God, my God. It's just really good. Set all your instincts like heightened alert. Yep, absolutely. And then the physical like your body starts to you start to leap because it's like, right, yeah. I happened in I was in target one time. Alex mom was looking after him when he was a baby. And I heard this baby cry two hours across next minute. My boobs when I'm just like, that's not even my kid. Crying in the shower, and it wasn't even then like you're right. It's like, no, no, no. You know, there's no no, but we have with with my kids. My husband wasn't there. Showering becomes a real luxury. And I remember being trying to shower like a lightning speed. Tape my middle son in a baby bouncer like literally facing me while I'm in the shower. And I'm trying to sing to him. And I'd be like, you know, keeping really happy. It's just like puce in the face. Just so angry to hear you out. So you can see me and obviously can see the boobs. outraged. But little things like that showering, saving yourself. Honestly, either yourself, like, just Adam, my husband would take island just so I could have my food. Yeah, this little things like that. You can't even eat shower, go to the loo like, it's just so relentless. And it's just not prepared for it. Nothing, nothing can prepay for it now. And that's the thing to even if people do try and prepare you for it, you just dismiss it because you get a heart. It can't be that they're not you know, because you've got no idea. wouldn't matter what anybody told you. I remember reading a book and it said about what to do if your baby's fussy or whatever. And I was like, I didn't need to read this, my baby's gonna be perfect. You know, like, just total blissful denial what's about to happen to me, You do kind of think to yourself why like, mostly, this one's gonna love it to none of mine slept No, they were over to just is, it just is what it is, is what it is. I mean, you hear, I've got friends who've got kids that were like five and didn't, you know, didn't sleep through. So you just got to be grateful with your, you know, but my middle, my middle son, he used to get colic and stuff. And that was really horrible. So I was trying to feed him that, you know, the great water and in for coal and all that stuff. Because the worst thing was, even when he was asleep, he would make these noises. So I'd be trying to sleep and I've got this kind of like, you know, little rising thing, and he never wanted to not be close to you. So there was none of this sleeping, you know, in a Bayes net, like, there or like in a car, so I didn't feel comfortable having him in my bed, either. Because I'm worried about suffocating him, especially when you're so tired, that he's just exhausted, I worried like, What if I fall asleep in that role on him or something? So what we did is we took the side of his car and now you can buy these, you know, great inventions, we can actually stick them up at the side of the car and just put it right up against my bed and I had to sleep half hidden his cot half in my bed. And as soon as he was asleep I try and retract you know so like this like a ninja trying to take my spike, but he just sensed it. They sent it like just no longer. Yeah. And I'd wake up and I could barely move my neck and my arm be like dad like pins and needles. Yeah, the things we have to do Hey. Yeah, and they won't remember any of it. Probably for the best to be honest. What those early years, early months or so, so fundamental in a kid's development, like, if you don't do the right things, then never those connections are never formed. And that person never developed the way they're supposed to. So all those little things that you did like all the silly talk, and all the you know, the smiles and all that it's so authentic, and all the code and I think that's it you feel stressed by? Because you feel like you should be doing so many things. Like you know, when you've got a new phone, especially if you've got a toddler as well, it's really it's really difficult. That those cuddles in those first district so quick, like six weeks and it's different, right? Yeah. When tiny, tiny, tiny, and just having those moments like cherish but this snuggled up on you and they smell nice. There. And, you know, it goes so fast. He really does it, really. But my daughter now she's 12 she's gonna be 13 this year, she's the same height as me. She's gonna be taller than me. I'm not I'm not that tall, though. So it's not that hard. But, you know, she's already so grown up. Like, I think people always say, oh, kids are so grown up these days. I think probably, I don't think I think that's probably the same. They just have access to more information these days. That's the best the difference. We didn't have it connected to the world. Yeah, yeah, we just didn't have that. The big piece of me looking at it in my sport shorts. It's, it's called Making my claim. And that was the whole the whole thing about like ties into the feminism and just saying, like, I'm here, like, I'm a woman, I'm here. I'm a mother. You know, I'm of a certain age, society kind of discards you, when you reach a certain age. In a way, it's the same that I'm making my claim. I'm here. I want to be a contender. And have the ambitions is something that's often you know, it's kind of, oh, she's ambitious, too. You know, it's like in negativity. When it comes to a woman. They say, It's okay to be ambitious. Like, it's okay. You should be good. And it's okay to put your own your own needs. Not above everybody. I don't believe that. It's like, oh, my needs first because I'm a mother and No, but my needs are there, though. They're there. And then we met, it shouldn't be the chocolate into this because that's just not how it's just not how any family. Yeah, it's the same with like, you know, a kid you can't get your needs matter above everybody else's, like all the time, because you're gonna grow up with this kind of little dictator. Compromising like compromising just so everybody's living, you know, nice, happy, happy. Exactly. Everyone's getting their needs met, but no one to the detriment of anyone else. And it's, you're not setting Anyone up for, you know, failure through their life by think making them think that they they're up here and everyone else is down here. And, you know, ya know, it's like about going to what you want everything as well. And that understanding that not everybody's on the same, you know, not everyone's running the same race, as well as there's things that you can be a really hard worker, but you'll never get to the point that somebody else will be more privileged perspective will reach it's just not it's just not how the world works. And that's, that's just it. It's horrible. And we're fighting for change. We're fighting for, you know, saying just by being present on social media and having a platform being a woman and showing our faces and showing our art and encouraging other women to do the same then at least we're doing a little bit to get it in the right direction. Absolutely. And the more more people that do it, it just, you know, it just builds on itself and just keeps keeps going and going to one day it happens yeah. Somebody said to me recently who's your main competitor, like in Singapore and tell me I'm touched is because he can't, if someone likes a piece you can't go up while they're in the process of buying someone else's piece and be like, weather my mind they just see, there's no such thing as competitors, you can be like, better known, so you'll fight for your spec market, because we have to, you know, it's like that. But you can't, you can't fight to be, you know, for somebody to buy a piece that they're going to buy someone else's. And it's like, actually, this is quite unique in that way. This what we're doing as artists, we really, really support each other. Yeah, yeah. And learn from each other as well. There's so much learning and I say, actually, I learned so much from Instagram, like, full of inspiration, getting inspired all the time. So I did a post recently, I have to say, like, you know, massive props to all the artists that are doing that stuff together and giving it to us for free. You know, it's, it's free, and we can see not just a couple of paintings a year a show. Yeah, you know what I wish we would have done 10 years ago, whatever. Yeah. thing that you'd be posts from people's people's practice. It's, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. And it's been such a pleasure chatting with you squint so lovely. We could chat all day. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

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