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More reviews Alison's kind and gentle nature made it easy to share these sometimes difficult conversations. Leah Franklin I've been listening to your podcasts and I love your interview style. You're natural, warm and have a good sense of humour! Rebeccza McMartin Congratulations on creating such a brilliant resource for creative parents!! What an honour to be a small part of it. Love what you’re building here. Georgia Fields You know, we have International Women's Day where you know, everyone posts on their social media, how good it is to support women. But you're an example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work you're doing. Fleur Harris Powerful conversation with a healthy dose of fun. I do enjoy your style! The best! Bianca Morra Alison is a truly compassionate host who genuinely wants to have conversations that will have a positive impact on moms everywhere. She asks thought provoking and powerful questions to explore the good, bad and the ugly of motherhood, and to normalize the issues that challenge us. And she's not afraid to say that she doesn't have it all figured out, which I just LOVE! Lisa Sugarman I am so thankful for the work The Art of Being a Mum is doing for the art and parenting community. Mercedes Rodgers What you do is wonderful. I think what you're doing is so significant. And it's so important. And I'm so happy to be here and to talk to you. Shweta Bist It was such a pleasure talking with you and I would love to again anytime. You're a gem! Charlotte Condie What an absolute honour to speak with Alison, Alison has such a beautiful way of interviewing and is a beautiful soul. Carmen Bliss I have enjoyed your podcast so much. I’ve realized that unlike many other interviewers you don’t take over the interviews and make it all about yourself... you allow your guest to tell their stories. Louise Tye It was a pleasure chatting with you, you are so easy to talk to. Dr Melanie Cooper Such an amazing experience to be a part of! Thank you for allowing me to talk so openly, without judgement. It is so important to continue our creative journeys. Pariya Ziakas Thanks Alison you made that so comfortable. You are excellent at what you do. - Bianca Richardson Thank you for having me on your brilliant show. Katherine Collette I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz I truly had a great time talking to you. You are very easy to talk to !! Daneille Kloberdanz

Singer, songwriter and mum of 2 Alison Newman chats to artists, musicians, writers and other creatives about what it is like being a mother - and being an artist. Juggling the day to day, retaining your identity, how their work is influenced by motherhood, "mum guilt", the pros, the cons and everything in between Be inspired by artistic + creative mothers who are passionate about continuting their work, no matter what. Latest Article READ HERE About Me ... and the changes Hi there I'm Alison, its so great to have you here! I'm a mum of 2 boys and a singer/ songwriter, so I know first hand how challenging it can be to balance your role as a mother with the intense need to create. I started this podcast to reach out to other creative mums, in a time of my own crisis, to see how they were handling things, but since then it has turned into so much more. The aim now being - to encourage mothers to see the value in their creating and to try to support them to know that they are not alone - challenge cultural norms and break down a few patriarchal stereotypes along the way. Recently, in May 2023 I my work hours changed, and I knew I wouldn't have the time or the capacity to continue the podcast each week as I have since July 2021, Instead of giving up my labour of love, I looked at how else I could do things, and I started a written interview series in June 2023. From time to time you will still see podcasts pop up, Id o have time to do a couple every month, but you'll enjoy reading about the amazing creative mothers we have in our societies, all around the world. Never miss an episode - SUBSCRIBE to my newsletter Email First Name Last Name Join Our Mailing List Thanks for subscribing! Would you like to be a guest? Email Your name Tell me a bit about yourself and what you create, ages of children, etc ... Send Thanks for submitting! I will be in touch soon x Get a taste of Alison's new album WOLF which she is currently working on. Branding + logo design by “This feels like the podcast version of Rachel Power’s book The Divided Heart and I think it’s what we need.” Katherine Collette - author and podcaster "We have International Women's Day where everyone posts on their social media how good it is to support women. But Alison is example of someone actually actively doing that. And I have a lot of respect for that and very grateful for the opportunity to join in with the fantastic work she's doing." Fleur Harris - illustrator and designer "Alison has a charming and disarming interview style. This makes for a podcast that proves to be a great companion, throughout its entended library of interviews." Steve Davis - podcaster, critic, comedian and educa tor.

Fiona Valentine Melbourne artist + artist business coach S2 Ep54 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes ) and Google Podcasts My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, a visual artist + a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and a mother of 2. Fiona grew up a creative child, her mother enjoyed drawing, she was influenced by her, she received her first oil paint set at the age of 12, and she did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After high school finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age Fiona found herself with a new baby, living in a mud hut in Niger in Africa. She put her art aside, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, that it felt frivolous, it didn't seem like it had a place. This was a decision she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia, with 2 children. She then realised how crucial her art was to her life balance, she taught herself watercolour and acrylic. She delved into training, joining the Australian Guild of Realist Artists. The life changing training she received lead her to share her love of artwork and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delved back into her creativity. We chat today about how finding your creativity can enhance other parts of your life, creating new neural pathways in your brain, finding new ways to create and looking at things differently. **This episode contains discussions around post natal depression, autism + Asperger's syndrome** Connect with Fiona website / instagram Podcast - instagram / website What is a lean specialist? Kate Northrup book "Do Less" Music used with permission from Alemjo , Australian new age ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the bonding people as the traditional owners of the land which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for joining me. My guest this week is Fiona Valentine, vas a visual artist and a business coach for artists based in Melbourne, Victoria, and she's a mom of two. Fiona grew up as a creative child. Her mother enjoyed drawing. She was influenced by her and received her first oil paint set at the age of 12. She did some training in high school to hone her skills in oils and drawing. After High School finished, Fiona took a trip overseas. It was during this trip that she met her husband and her life took on a whole new adventure. At 23 years of age, Fiona found herself with a newborn baby living in a mud house in New Year in Africa. She put aside her art, feeling that in light of the poverty and suffering around her, then it felt frivolous. It didn't seem like he had a place. This was a decision that she has since regretted. During her 30s Fiona was back in Australia with two children. She then realized how crucial her art was to her life balance. She taught herself watercolors and acrylics. She delved into training, joining the Australian guild of real estate artists. The life changing training she received led her to share her love of artwork, and to become a business coach for artists. Fiona credits her deep relationship with God as a huge support in the time where she delves back into her creativity. This episode contains discussion around postnatal depression, autism and Asperger's syndrome. The music you'll hear today is from Australian New Age ambient music trio lmJ which features myself my sister Emma Anderson, and her husband John. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Lovely to meet you. Lovely to meet you too nice to meet somebody who's podcasting on this continent. Oh whereabouts are you? I'm in Melbourne. Our lovely my mum was born in Altona that down at the beachside suburb. So it's been a lot of time going to Melbourne over the years. So yeah, we my sister was born in Adelaide. So while our family were there, so we've been done the South Australia Victoria. Have you gone through Mount Gambier much on your way? Between there you go the the upwards upwards route? Well, we were actually in Moogerah for a few years. So we often also between Algeria and Adelaide. Yeah, I've done that. And yeah, I don't I don't think we went through Mount Gambier very often. Is that where you are? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm getting an amount. Yep. Not many people like that. I talked to on you know, Mount Gambier at all. So I know people have lived there, but I don't think I've ever actually been there. Yeah. Okay, I was born here. But I've lived all over. I grew up pretty nomadic childhood. And I lived in like four countries. The first five years I was married. We've been settled in the same street in Melbourne for nearly 20 years now, which is great. That would be really hectic, like moving like countries, little line moving, you know, towns moving countries. Yeah, you get good at it. You probably wouldn't like want to accumulate too much stuff, either. Because you sort of, you know, when you go next place, you'd be like, Oh, I don't want to take too much baggage, I suppose. Yeah, you learn. You don't want to have to carry too much with you. But you also learn to I think that objects are they have a sacredness about them and you can't just clear out everything because they hold our stories. And you want to take some of that familiarity and comfort with you even in an overseas move, which gets trickier because you have to weigh everything Tell us about yourself. You're watercolor artists and you are an art coach as well can you share sort of how you got into painting like growing up what you was, was that sort of your main art form of there any influences how you got into it, I really, I just always enjoyed the idea of being creative. And painting and drawing. Were very interesting to me. My mom was really supportive. And she liked to sketch and I still have my first oil paint box that she bought me when I was 12. And I got some really good training, when I was in high school, living in the country, just a really tiny school. But we did some courses on drawing and watercolor. So I got some good skills early on, which was really helpful. And then later I had, I worked with an artist who taught us how to draw from little still life settings and things like that gave me a bit of oil painting, tuition, but then I didn't really do a whole lot with it. I went overseas after high school. And I thought I was going on a six month trip to teach kids to read. And the trip got extended, I met my husband, we got married here in Australia and went back overseas. So my life took a little bit different path than I thought it was going to. And so I found myself with a new baby in a madhouse in Africa, thinking that my creativity felt really self indulgent and frivolous. And I made a really bad decision to just sort of put it aside because in light of poverty and suffering, and it just didn't seem like it had a place. But that was just, you know, her 23. What did I know? If I'd had another voice at the time helping me see how these things could work together, it would have been really helpful. But instead, yeah, I hit my 30s, my, I had two girls, by now I was back in Australia. And I really started to understand how core creativity was, to me, as a person to all human beings. We're just we're born creative, we just don't always recognize it, or develop it. And I really began to treasure that and see how crucial it was to my balance and well being as a human. For me, it was a connection with God as well, just that was how I was wired, for relationship with him. So I really made it a priority. I'm mobile, I read everything I could from the library, and taught myself first of all, watercolor. And then I moved on to acrylic, and then finally got my brave up to try oil. And I just loved it. And that's where I started to get some training. Then I joined the Australian guild of realist artists. And they were running winter schools for a few years, we could go for a week and spend time with some master artists. And it was absolutely life changing fan tastic got introduced to much more skill based training for realism, and composition and drawing and painting and color use. And it was wonderful. So that really helped me build my skills and understand how to create the kind of art that I was really interested in. There are so many things you've just said in there that I want to ask you about. But the one that sticks out is the mud hot living in Africa. Can you give us a bit of background, how you actually ended up there? What was the circumstances that brought you to living there? It wasn't something I ever thought would happen. When I chose this trip of going to Africa, I thought I'd be in a fairly rural setting. But for just a few months, it turned out I was in a large town that was you know, had stores and cars and all that sort of thing, electricity. And I lived with another couple. After I met my husband, we went back to that same town and we worked in an international school. And so we were helping kids with transition. We did some training in the US, which actually helped us as well as everybody else on how to make those big moves and handle them. When you're going across cultures. Maybe you've spent many years in one culture and now you're moving permanently to another one. Just how that affects us was fascinating stuff. And then we moved in Tunisia and we live just south of the Sahara desert in very small mud village. And it wasn't actually a heart although it was mud. It didn't have electricity or running water. It was sort of like a three bedroom house, and we put a kitchen in one of the so called bedrooms, and and nothing was really square. And it was very hot. So we slept outside. Oh, wow. And sort of had to run the hose at three in the morning because we were on a bit of a hill, when the rest of the town didn't have the water on, we could actually get the hose to work and fill up some barrels with water. Oh my gosh. So it was pretty crazy. We had some solar power. Yep. And we would go bushing outfall drive because we were working with nomads, so we would go out and stay with them slip on sand. The stars were amazing. But it was a pretty full on existence, you know, just making sure you had clean water, putting it through the filter, baking bread, ground grinding meat, just surviving was an language learning was pretty tough with a with a new baby. It was a pretty extreme, really extreme time. But we weren't there terribly long. After about 18 months, we came back to Australia. And we had planned to go back. But for lots of reasons it it was clear to us it was right to stay here in Australia. And we had another baby and daughter life here. Yeah, though, like, let alone, you know, take the fact that you've got a baby out of the mix, that would still be incredibly challenging. But then obviously, that's a whole like, yeah, that's like I can't get around that was really big. And for lots of reasons. Although I loved it. I loved being there. And I was really committed to being there to what we were doing. It also took a heavy toll on me. And I think part of that, I mean, often, postpartum depression can be a thing that we face, whether that's hormones, or whatever it is. And being separated from my support system. I think that was a big part of it, too. A friend who's a psychologist who works with moms, has identified grief, actually, if we're separated from our mother, by, you know, could be relationship reasons, or, or death or distance. But when we don't have that mother support that village, that other women in our life caring for us, we actually go through grief, but it's often not recognized. Often it's misdiagnosed as depression. That was another piece I learned recently that made me think, Aha, I think there was some of that going on. Plus the creative piece of making that choice to think no, no. In this context, that would just be so self indulgent, instead of saying no, no, it would have been something to really help me navigate that tough time. Yeah, I can certainly appreciate where you're coming from both sides of the coin there. Yeah, I can imagine if you're if you're Yeah, if you if you're worrying about having, you know, potable water that you're, you know, that's important. And then if you're using water to paint, you'd think or is that the right thing to do you know what I mean? You'd be questioning this the ethics behind it, I suppose, like, you know, if people are struggling to get clean water, and I'm using it to dip my paintbrush eat like, you know what I mean? Yes, yes, just the simple things can feel indulgent. And there's also a strange feeling of if someone else is suffering, then who am I to not be suffering? And, yeah, you can't go into a situation in a third world country as a Westerner and not feel that there's a difference in lifestyle here. There has to be if I if I didn't maintain drinking water, or you know, some measure of Western food, I probably wouldn't survive. I haven't grown up learning to just deal with a particular environment. Yeah, a harsh environment. So there's some of it, that's necessity, but trying to work out. How much of that helps and how much just be free of it. It's just the way it is. And just be be myself and understand that these women around me, they're enjoying their creativity. It may be different than the way I would Yeah, but they're embroidering. They're making designs. They like the way things look. And they love having a new dress like I do. They're just doing it slightly differently in their context. I didn't need to feel that way. I understand why I did. But if I'd had, I guess, probably just some more time to grow up. If I had more understanding, I could have been kinder to myself. But I think even now, you know, I think people when they see trouble in the world, they can feel like their creativity isn't as important and the need to do something really makes a difference. And they forget that actually, our creativity is hugely powerful both for our own coping stress, and for the things that we make, and how they help create home environments that help us cope with stress, or work environments that help us be productive, or healthcare environments that heal. So if if creativity is something that's really your thing, whether it's music, whether it's art, it's so powerful. When you're saying, talking, then I just had that thought, just recently with the conflict in Ukraine, that there was a footage I saw of a, a gentleman whose son had been in the hospital with being traded in Ukraine, and as the son had been finally discharged, and the dad played his saxophone for the, the doctors and nurses and the other patients there as his little thank you. And, you know, you think that if you play the saxophone or sing or something, you think that so simplistic, I do that all the time. But in that context, you know, the, the joy that it can bring others in, you know, the emotions, and the connection that it creates, you know, is huge, you know, and remembering to do that for ourselves, and our own household, and the people who buy our albums or buy our paintings. It's not just about racing off to a part of the world that suffering and doing something about it, although we feel that it's often just seeing how am I bringing the healing of creativity, the joy of it to my everyday life? My family's everyday life? And my customers everyday life? Yeah, that's, that's so important. That's it, that's a massive point. When you came back to Australia, when was the point that you sort of realized, I'm feel like I've lost myself, I've lost my creativity. And I need to get it back. You talked about you started to do some reading and stuff was there one moment where you just went, I need to change this was it sort of, there were a couple of moments, I knew I was underweight, struggling with my mental health, and not in a good place, which kind of surprised me, because I had been so excited about being in Africa, and so committed to the work that we were doing. But that doesn't stop environments, and even the spiritual environment we're in, and an environment where placing curses on people is a part of normal, everyday life. And if you've never encountered that, and don't really think it's a thing, that doesn't mean it's not a thing. So it was a lot in that environment that I was perhaps only even partially aware of. So I knew when I got back, I needed something needed to change. And I, I kind of felt like creativity was part of it. So gardening was a gentle beginning. As I became more confident in how important my creativity was, quilting became part of it. And then eventually, I was like, Okay, I really want to make space for painting. And a few years had gone by at this point. And there were some, some theological learnings, really just discovering that God is three persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that their community of friendship and joy is creative. That was a real lightbulb moment for me as a Christian going, Wow, that my creativity is not just my thing, and a self indulgent thing, it's deeply core to the nature of God and the relationship has invited me into and for me, that was the biggest, okay, I get it, I get why this is core to who I am, and to my life and to my relationship with God. And it gave me the freedom to say I'm going to pour resources at this time I'm going to invest in growing my creative skills and drawing and painting in the way that I've been wanting to. For years I've been dabbling with music and gardening and quilting, but yeah, just it gave me the yes let's dive in. Yeah, yeah, almost like that. That not permission but that reassurance I suppose that you felt like yes, this is this is it and this is important and it is a value and I can see Yeah, that I'm supporting this I suppose as well. You felt really sure really comfortable with that. So you also work as an art Coach, can you share with us about what you do there? I've been teaching drawing and painting for a few years. And that was how I made the transition from being an admin manager. After homeschooling my kids, I needed a job, they went to school. And that's what I ended up doing. I learned a lot of business skills doing that. And then I just the desire to paint more got really strong. So I built up workshops and classes on the side until I could replace my salary. And during that process, that teacher, part of me, really came alive again. And so I've been juggling my own painting and teaching for quite some time. And I started to have this desire to teach beyond just the class session, because I could see the transformation that was happening in people's lives. So I started luxury art retreats, where women could come for three days, we went to the Yarra Valley, state and beautiful country hotel. And I taught them my six keys to painting, and just watching their dreams come alive, because I get them to start with, who are you? What do you love? What do you enjoy? What subject is most important to you? What style do you like the most start there. And then just learned those things, because there isn't time to learn everything. So learn how to make the kind of art that you most like making. I mean, if you're a musician, you don't feel like you have to sing classical jazz country. You don't have to do it all you kind of know what you like. And you go with that. Yeah. So I kind of took that pathway with helping my students find focus. And then watching these women come live and realizing as I was growing my own art business, and investing in courses and coaching, learning, aha, that this message, I'm hearing so often that it's really hard to sell art. Or you need to get into art shows and win awards. Or you need to get gallery representation. And this is how you do it. I started to think now I think there's another way and I started to realize the entrepreneurial opportunity of the internet for artists. So I started building, how to help artists move on from painting, to being able to do what I've done, and create a side hustle from the art and even a full time business. And so now that's really what I focus on. As a business coach for artists, I've created the profitable artist method. And I teach artists how to get clarity on what they really want to make, and who it's for. Get clarity on how much time they want to spend and how much money they want or need to make. And to build a simple business and marketing plan from there. Yeah, right. That's awesome. Because I think that there is there is this not what the word is, this can be a misconception, I suppose at least this way we see the starving artists, you know that, you know, art's not a real job, you can't make money out of art, you know, and you're basically kicking that to the curb and going no, actually, if you do it in the, you know, particular way, in a particular method, then there's so many opportunities for making a living from your art, for sure. I believe real artists don't starve they thrive. But it does mean recognizing that as an artist, you're not only an art ambassador, you're also an artist, entrepreneur, you're in business, if you want to make a living from your art, and that doesn't. That's not selling out. That's not compromising your creativity. It's an extension of it. Yeah, so it's looking at it in a different way of, you know, taking ownership of it and seeing it as a business rather than I don't know, just a hobby in real cities. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. And that can be a challenging mindset, I think for for some people to sort of see that in the barriers, like you said that that selling out mentality, which I'm putting in air quotes. That, yeah, it's, it's if it's what you want, then why should you be held back by you know, maybe some beliefs that you've had in the past or people around you have these certain beliefs? Do you encounter encounter sort of that sort of pushback from people when they're going through that transition? Yes, it can be there, even if they don't fully believe it for themselves. Maybe they doubt themselves? Have I got what it takes? Or they worry? It's about talent? How do I know if I'm talented enough? Whereas actually, I think the more we understand brain science, the more we realize, the people we have thought were the most talented, have actually benefited from training and practice. Those are skills that have been developed. It's not really even in the case of someone like Mozart. It's not just about talent. It's about the environment, the training, the practice, the discipline, that It's really liberating. Because if you can learn art skills to grow your art ability, you can also learn business skills to grow, that even if you're not techie, or you've never had business experience, there are some really simple things you can do. To make sure that as you create work, you share that work with people who love what you love, and can afford to buy it. And you make a buying experience, which these days we can do online, so that they can buy from you. And you create this whole ecosystem using social media and an email list and website. So you, I mean, you're asking that pushback. Yes, there's pushback, but really, there are a lot of people who hold on to this sort of toxic suffering starving artist thing. I just think why you don't need to. So ask yourself, Do I want to thrive? Do I want to make art I love and make a living and build a life I love or do I want to starve for me? I know which one I want? Yeah, that's awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom, Alison Newman. I want to talk a bit about your own children. Can you share? You've got two children. I've got two girls and they're grown and in their 20s. Now, yeah. One's a nurse. And one has worked as a library assistant. She's currently doing some writing and working, helping me actually quite a bit at home. And yeah, they aren't at all. They yes or no, no, in the sense that neither of them have a desire to be making drawings and paintings. They're both quite creative. My oldest daughter who's a nurse is very creative. And she really brings just this amazing problem solving people caring, empathic sense to her nursing and palliative care. And the other ones come up with a really creative ways of challenging kids who don't love reading, to do a six chapter challenge. That's what she calls it. Read the first six chapters of this book I recommend, and if you still don't like it, I'll give you another one. By the time they get six chapters in their heart, yeah, lots of converts. So yeah, their creativity comes out in different ways than art. That sort of goes back to what you were saying earlier about how we are innately who humans are creative beings. But I think there's a lot of people that discount that in themselves. And even some women that I've approached to be on this podcast, perhaps looking at themselves a different way to where I am as a as an outsider, I see someone who is creating something who's, you know, has created something from scratch and is, is making it work and making changes to it as they go. And I see that as a creative person. And they'd say, Oh, but I don't make anything that cycle. It's not about necessarily making something and having something in your hand that right. Yeah, can you can you sort of expand on that a little bit? Yeah, my husband, Mike is a lien specialist these days. I don't know if you've come across the lien. But it's a whole system of tools and behaviors that helps businesses to work efficiently and helps them to value people and use tools and systems so that they can reduce waste, reduce overwork, not pass on poor quality, things like that. So it makes millions of dollars worth of difference to big companies. But the principles are really amazingly simple and helpful. So as he and I've talked over the years, you know, having a glass of wine sitting down, he's talking about Lean, I'm talking about art talking about our day. We've just seen how many of these things come together. So I actually created a program for businesses called The Art of innovation, using classical drawing to help businesses see 50% of people don't think they're creative. The reality is 100% of us are and if you're going to have a business committed to continuous improvement, you've got to help your people tap into their creativity. They're not going to be creative if they don't think they've got the goods. So add a drawing can be a great way to realize Oh, with a bit of training, oh my goodness, look at that amazingly realistic. Foot I just drew, with these three steps you just taught me Wow. Okay, I'm more creative than I thought. And it's not that being creative is about making art, as you said, or making anything is about recognizing I have this potential, to think of something, to think about it, to think about the problems, to think about the solutions, and to make changes. And my thinking, and my ideas want to understand how my brain works, and how I make tiny new connections that feel so awkward and uncomfortable, and how they can grow. And with repetition, they can practice and develop until we've got like these superhighways of information in our heads where things travel quick, fast, then we can have the courage to grow and change at work, and doing things new ways, problem solving, collaborating, where we've got different opinions coming together, we can realize this feels really uncomfortable right now. But as we persevere, we're gonna get through it, we're gonna come through to the solution. And drawing models that process, that life process. So these workshops are powerful in helping businesses unlock their creativity, for all of the applications within business. Because yeah, you're right, it's like, I think, in COVID, sort of presented so many opportunities for looking at doing things in different ways. And unless somebody feels as though they've got the confidence to think differently, or think like that, but they won't, I think, and then if you, like you said, you open up one tiny little bit of creativity, where they can physically see that they are capable. And then you must just see them thrive, they must just go, oh, my gosh, what else am I capable of, you know, and it gives them that confidence, to share their ideas and to look at things in different ways and challenge things. Yeah. And once you've got those neural pathways in your head, if you struggle through the awkward learning phase, the learning phase of anything feels like trying to write with your with the wrong hand. If you've ever broken an arm and had to write with your other hand, it feels terrible. Yeah, yeah. If you've never done it, try it. It's awful. That feeling is like, that's what learning anything feels like, but you get through it. And then those neural pathways are available for different skills. And that's where it gets really exciting. Yeah, yeah. It's like, just because it worked for one thing, then your brain can connect it to, to sort of reach other outcomes that possibly weren't able to be accessed before. Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. That's, like very clever to be able to recognize that you could put those two things together and, and make something that's of such value. Because I feel like, at different times, you know, the government comes out with these different ideas that they're going to train the next generation of whatever. And these these jobs haven't been thought of yet, and, and stuff like that. But then you think, how do they actually do that? You know, doesn't make sense to me. But then you say something like this, that makes perfect sense. Like, you know, it's like, you're just you're discovering things that haven't, you haven't had the chance to discover before? Because your brain hasn't been like that. Yeah. And that process that you're talking about? Michael Gallup, who wrote a book called, how to think like Leonardo da Vinci, he says that creative endurance is the most distinctive trait of highly creative people. And it's that ability to push through it when it feels yuck. When it feels uncomfortable, unfamiliar, I'm stuck at this, I can't do it. And you realize this is just a phase. And you get some help you get some training, you do some practice, you persevere, and pretty soon, you've got a new skill. That's what people need that. I am creative. I can learn new things. If we give that to people, then yeah, we can problem solve, change careers. Do whatever. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that that is really cool. One of the things I like to talk to my moms about on this show is the concept of mum guilt. Do you sort of find or talk about yourself, but also want to talk about people that you work with? Is that something that sort of holds people back creatively mums, in particular, that they feel like when they've got to do something, when they've got to paint or they've got to create, it's at the expense of their children so they feel guilty about doing it? I think it can be there. I think we're experts at coming up with guilt over all sorts of things, and mothering right? Am I living? Right? Have I done enough? Am I enough? And just recognizing that's part of the journey, particularly when you pick up creativity, for some reason. Creativity is just opposed. People have written books about it. It's not even just internal, it's something outside of ourselves. And recognizing that gives you a bit of something in your backbone that says, this does matter. This is good for my kids, when I'm being a whole person when I'm being creative when I'm modeling joy for them. I mean, the challenge is that our time is narrow, as moms, yeah, even when our kids are grown, you know, we're an important part of the family. And so often, the time we thought we'd set aside gets interrupted or changed or, but just knowing that when we think well, about creativity, when we think well about boundaries, when we think well, about being primarily responsible for ourselves, putting on our oxygen mask, before we help someone else, that's just a healthy way to live, then I think, I encourage the women that I work with, to make space for their creativity in three ways, some time, a place, and a process. And if you need to go to the dentist or the doctor, you make time you make an appointment, and understanding your creativity is healthy, it's healthy for you tell the kids to follow and watch the way that you're choosing to live. So making some time and last is going to look different, if you've got littles if you've got school aged kids, and you're working as well. But whatever it is, even if it's just five or 10 minutes, having a few sessions a week, in your diary, then your creative time, I worked with a businesswoman who was very time poor as a mum. And we built her a sketchbook that she could take on the train. Yeah, we built a plan, build a bunch of reference material and some training. So she could whip out a sketchbook and have a few minutes to draw on the train, whatever it looks like, if you can make some time learn a process, it's just gonna really help and to have a place to do it, her place was in a sketchbook on the train, which meant she had to have a little pencil bag that worked. And two, she could use without, you know, jabbing the person next to her. But if you you might have some space in your house, it might not be a whole room. But it might be a container with your art supplies. So you can just pull it out on the table and get started, whatever is gonna work for the life stage that you're in. It might be really, really simple. Yeah. And I think that's a really important point. Because I think it can be daunting for anyone, when they decide they're going to take up a new a new art or new craft or return to it, where it's like, oh, but I need all this space, or I need all this time, I need to have a room for it. And, you know, that can be really overwhelming and a real barrier. But like you're saying, it's about thinking maybe thinking outside of that, that box that you've you've put that into thinking outside of that and saying, you know, I love that example, you know, doing it on the train on the commute? Like, I've never thought of that. I mean, I don't have that in my life. So that's not something I ever thought of. But yeah, that's just it's so refreshing to think like that, that it's not limiting. And it's not. It doesn't have to be the way that you might have thought it had to be. That's right. And when you take stock of how much time do I really have? Am I a morning person or a night person? Where are those little pockets and being realistic about how big they are? I call that loving your limits? Yeah, right, and recognizing what they are because actually, I think it can really help you focus if your limit if you have a time and space limit that might influence the medium that you choose, you might stick to drawing, or you might choose watercolor over oils. And if you're really limited space wise that might affect the size that you choose to work. So as you're loving your limits and working it out, you're finding focus and finding your style finding your way I know an artist who paints gorgeous portraits, but she will just do the eye sometimes, and she'll paint it on a silver spoon. Oh wow. Or in a little teeny weeny box beautiful little box flip open the lid and put a tiny little scene inside. Oh, really mind blowingly creative stuff. So sometimes loving your limits can help you find a way that's really unique. Yeah I've had to say that's incredibly unique, isn't it? And then that I guess that you use that as part of your business that you have got this uniqueness. And you and you build on that. Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I think it's a lot of it's about, you know, changing, long held beliefs about what it means to be an artist or be a creative. Right, right, from the very basic of, like you said, finding out what you actually enjoy. Like, I'm a singer, and there's no way that I would go through, like you said, sing all these different styles when I know, the style that I love, and what I like to sing or write about, you know, if someone said to me, you know, write, write about whatever I'd go, well, that's, that doesn't resonate with me. And I guess it's the same with your painting. It's in the medium that you want to work with. And also this, like you said, the thing you're interested in painting? Yes, that's gonna change so much for everybody's No, it really is. And I think when we start there, what do I like? What am I like, as well? Where do I live? What's my personality? What drives me crazy? What colors do I love? What colors do I hate? That when you just look at yourself, you know yourself pretty well. Even if you haven't been paying attention, if you stop paying attention, you know yourself, you're standing there instead of what's the right way to do this. Because our fear and insecurity can make us want to learn right so that other people won't see that we don't know what we're doing. If we can get out of that mode and get into who am i What do I like? That's a much more helpful pathway, I think. Yeah, and I think too, social media is really good at showing us the best of everybody, you know, like, it's a very curated environment where people aren't going to show you the painting that that they painted over because they didn't like it. You know, you you're comparing your starting point to someone else's finishing point. And that can be really daunting as well. It really can. Yeah, and I think that whatever that opposition is to creativity, the criticizing voices that come up, it can be quite surprising. And just recognizing that's part of it. And I tell people collect as many affirmations as you can, you're going to need them. Telling yourself those kind things that yeah, don't don't compare the end of their story with the beginning of your story. And everybody's got out. They're not showing you. Yeah, that's an important thing to remember, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Do you just don't affirmations is one of my favorite ones. There's a friend of mine, who's a watercolor artist. And I did a course with her and her thing was art has no rules. And she put that on her. Like the packaging that the the box with all the art supplies in Julia reader, if you're listening, thank you. So I've got that has no rules on my little backboard where I paint, because that was my biggest thing. Like I've never been a painter, because I didn't know how to do it. And I thought that you had to know how to do something. Right before you could do it. Like I didn't do it in high school. I've never really done much with it. But the more I spoke to moms, on this podcast, I realized that art can be absolutely anything and done in any way. And that was my, just my lack of understanding and my own insecurities holding me back. So now I just love fluffing around painting. It's just so enjoyable. And it's another thing that I've added into my sort of creative, like care taking care of myself. It's been amazing. Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it to just have those things that are holding us back knocked out of the way and it can be such a self healing thing. My second daughter is on the autism spectrum and has a truckload of health challenges. And it was very stressful, particularly when she was younger. And just being able to go somewhere and go into another space and paint for a while was such a healing thing. And that the whole thing about art not having rules, there isn't one right way to do it. I would add to that to that. If if you find the style, the look the kind of art that you like, and you borrow into learning how to make that kind of art, you might find that there are actually some rules or principles that help you. Yeah, which is the flip side of the freedom and there isn't one way to do it. There aren't rules you can it can be whatever you want it to be. Yeah, if you're drawn towards detail and realism and beauty. That's okay, too. That's a wonderful thing. And there are a whole lot of wisdom learning training rules if you like That kind of sift that journey that cannot limit your creativity but actually give Yes. Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's like that if you want to do it a particular way, there's going to be some skills that are going to be really useful for you to be able to produce what you want to produce, I suppose. Yeah, so yeah, that's thing, isn't it. And I feel like that with music too. Like, there's so many. This, you know, a billion ways you could write a song and, and it's so freeing to see people do do things. But then within that, there's still you know, the notes on the scale, they never changed. You know, those basic things about rhythm and things like that. So you've got that sort of guideline within it. But then within that you can do whatever you want. I suppose I said, diving into it, knowing the style of music you like, learning from masters within that particular style or genre of music. When they give you a tip, try it like this, or there's this kind of pattern, or, you know, if you jump off from here, or use this kind of key for this kind of, it's so exciting, isn't it to get those tools from someone, you just think oh, my goodness, you can do that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Exciting. You're listening to the art of being a man podcast with Alison Newman. So just coming back to mum guilt, your own personal sort of thoughts on that? Well, for me, it probably one area like it really came up was around, not knowing what I was dealing with, with my daughter Mikayla and her health challenges I knew before I brought her home from hospital, something was going on. I called the doctors in mentioned a couple of things, and they couldn't tell me what it was. So we did a round of specialists for a long time, and they couldn't tell me anything that just take a home lover, she'll be fine. And I knew there was more to it than that. And it wasn't until she was eight, that my mom who knew this journey I was on of trying to figure out what's going on with this kid because it's we're not. This is not just normal childhood milestones. Something's happening here. Yeah. And I can't figure it out. And she she went back to teaching and she asked a fellow teacher, I know this kid, these are those symptoms are what, what, what does it sound like to you. And that was the first time we heard about autism or Asperger's Syndrome. So I started reading, did my thing, borrow books from the library, like I'd done laying to paint. And I just sat there reading the Oasis guide to autism and Asperger's in my room, and the tears just started running down my face, because I realized this is my kid, somebody has just described to me what's going on in the inside. And I had no idea. And I could just see all the things I could have done differently, or the things I've been doing wrong. And just realize what this kid had been dealing with. I was clueless about. I knew something but it didn't know what it was. And it was both, you know, you feel the guilt that why didn't I figure it out before? Or, but I could have helped. And what can you do? You can't do anything but go on and be grateful that now you know, and do the best you can to love and measure can not as you can't Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? I think as moms we're really good at beating ourselves up over things that we could do absolutely nothing about things that are out of our control. Yeah, we've got to sort of make make it feel good for everybody. And then when it doesn't, it's it's our fault, even if it's not our fault. Yeah, and then when we do blow it plenty of times you know, we get snapping get your into ball, we get bossy we get whatever unfair. And I think just being honest with our kids, especially as they get older and just being able to say I'm sorry, I was really cranky. Or I'm sorry that really wasn't fair. I think that just goes a long way to because the fact is we're never gonna be perfect anything's we're here. We're humans. Yes, we're honest. We can we're fatally flawed. So then going to another topic I'd love to talk about is the concept of identity about how the concept of your own identity changed. When you did become a mum, did you go through sort of a shift? I mean, I know you were in a really different place in the world, like do you graphically in a different sort of area, but yeah, how did you sort of? How did you feel about that whole process of that change? I really wanted to be a mum, I was really keen to be a mum, I, I'd been married nearly four years when my first daughter arrived. And my whole life was so extremely different. We moved into this mud village when I was eight months pregnant. So oh, you know, I was not just adjusting to motherhood, I was adjusting to a completely different existence, different language, different everything. So it and because that happened for me young, because I went overseas when I did I met Mike when I did. When he thought I was 24. I thought he was 24. Turns out, there's a 10 year age gap. I ended up being a teenage bride and uh, you know, people, mother, yes. But when we came back to Australia, and I had the two girls and then homeschooling them for a while, I felt like it was really, in my late later 20s and 30s that I started to figure out. So who am I? I can my wife and I'm a mom, and I've, you know, been overseas and done these things. But what am I really like? Yeah, because I'm married to a young and went overseas into an extreme situation. So Young, I didn't even really have those late teens 20s of figuring out who you are, as an adult being a single person, I was already making a life with another person, which was hugely transformative as it is when two opposites try and make a life together. But yeah, I think that discovering who I am, came later. And that's one of the things I love about getting older, I'll be 50 this year. And I love that I don't love the fact that my body is changing, my skin's getting all my hairs. But I do, I do love the internal change of just being so much more confident in who I am having had more life experiences and knowing I just know myself better. I know, my strengths and my weaknesses, and some of those weird limiting messages. I've learned other things that are true that have helped. So I like that side of identity as you get older of just knowing yourself better. And I think it's just always changing. You know, I knew I wanted to learn to paint. I thought teaching was the way to build more of a painting life. And it's reminded me that actually, I'm a teacher at heart. And I love that as much or more than the creative process itself. So for me helping artists step into their full art life, their career as an artist entrepreneur, that is so fulfilling for me that I'm willing to put limits on my own painting to pursue that journey, because I can't do everything I'd love to be and do everything. But there's not enough hours in the day are there? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? But I think what you said there about enjoying getting older and coming to these realizations, I think that's something that a lot of us can relate to. It's something I certainly can relate to, like I'm about to be probably 44 later this year. And you know, the best times mentally, you know, you go through this, all these things as a youngster about all this doubt. And what do people think of me and all this judgment, and you get to a point in your life where you just go, ah, none of that matters, who gives a toss, you know, and I joked with a guest recently, like, everyone should think like a 40 year old woman because you, you just you don't care anymore. You know, you've got the things in your life that are important, the things that matter, you've worked out yourself. And you're like, No, everything else can just go by the wayside. So it's incredibly liberating time of life. And I think you get over the shock of, oh my gosh, like, I thought, I thought youth would last longer. This aging thing that used to happen to other people, it's happening to me, there's kind of grief about that, or at least there was for me, and getting over that and realizing ah, actually, the opportunity in the next stage of my life is actually even richer because my baby making user behind me even much I mean for me I started young so yay, I've got adults now not nobody's in school anymore. And I'm, I'm free to move on to enjoying all those things I've learned about myself now in a different way in this part of my life, and I really like that. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to you talking about like grieving changes. When I had to get glasses. It was like, when I finally said I have to get glasses it was just like this. No getting like this. The worst thing in the world that could possibly happen to anybody. You know. It's so self referred. Isn't it? passes on in the store. I was is my first year of classes to literally the tears welled up in my eyes because I look like an old lady to myself. Yeah, yeah, because that's the thing, we have these concepts of what it means to be old and get old. And for me glasses was one of those things. So then when I, when I got my glasses, and I put them on, and I actually they look nice, like, they don't look like my grandmother's glasses, you know, they were never going to, you know, but that's what I had in my head. And then I first time I wore them to work, I was really nervous that because I hadn't worked with children for nine years in childcare, and I was thinking all the kids are going to be trying to pull them off, and there'll be like, making a big deal. And I wore them for probably 20 minutes before any of the children said anything I could tell they were looking, but one of them come up, they said, our you've got glasses on. And I was like, Yeah, I do. And that was it. You know, so my own, you know, worries about how they'd be received. You was nothing to worry about, you know, we build all this stuff, we build these stories in our minds of what's gonna happen in life. Well, I do certainly mean that it doesn't come true. And instead of going, Oh, well, that was nice. I don't have to worry so much anymore. We're finding things that we oh gosh, yeah. I put that down a lot of it to being a Cancerian I think YTD for about everything. You talked about that your your art take second place to your other sort of work that you're doing. But that is still your creative work, isn't it like it's not as though your own, the physical act of creating might not be there as much, but what you've created and what you're sharing is a massive part of it. That's really important to you, isn't it to be really important to me? Yes, yeah. And I actually love the whole creative process of crafting a message, and learning how to communicate that through social media, through my website, through an email list. Communicating and cultivating that audience, I run a Facebook group for artists called the confident artist. And so helping that community in their creativity, and then stepping into sharing their art with the world, designing the training materials, you know, and the graphics and all of that, that whole process of that teaching process of taking knowledge and experience and questions, and just shared experience. And communicating that with others. That's a really important creative process for me. And part of drawing and painting is that decision, fatigue is a big part, we're making so many decisions about the work all the way along, whether it's designing the idea in the first place, how we're going to compose the composition, how we're going to mix the colors, how we're going to actually create those clouds, or render those leaves, what painting needs next, which particular method I'm going to use to solve that particular problem, it can leave you mentally drained. So in a season, I've just learned I have to have seasons. And if, if I'm in a season of making a body of work, it may not be the same season where I can be really promoting a coaching program like the profitable artist. And that's a hard and costly choice. But sometimes that just has to happen, you have to mind using my creativity in this area. So it might not like I tell my students that really you need about a 5050 balance between making your creative work and marketing your creative work. And that can feel shocking in the beginning. But it also doesn't mean that you divide up every day, with a 5050, half to each, you have to find your own rhythm, it might work for you to make in the morning, market in the afternoon. But it might also mean that you have a week where you paint, and then you have a week where you do the business side of things. It just depends on what works better for you. And you might find it works different in different seasons. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because you can sometimes get on a real roll. We all the ideas are coming. And you don't want to sort of have to put a timer on that and say, Oh, no, no, can't do that. Now, you can let that come and let that happen. Because then there's always times when you're not feeling like that. So that's the time is when you can do the practical work and, you know, that other side of things. That's, that's really important too. So yeah, I mean, that's the thing. We things always ebb and flow, don't they? No one can be everything all the time at the same level. You know, that's just it's just the nature of things, and especially being the nature of women to Kate Northrup. I wrote a book called, do less more, I think it's called. And in there, she talks about the fact that as women, we're on a 28 day cycle, whereas men are on a 24 hour cycle. And in some ways, we know all about that. But in other words, we don't know much about that. How often do we expect ourselves to be on a 24 hour work cycle. And we forget the fact that our energy ebbs and flows in really different ways that she's done a great job of mapping, the kinds of energy we have at different stages, in even if we're not actually cycling, like we were, when we were younger, even if you're at that life stage, you still have these rhythms of energy, rest, being more extroverted and more introverted. And that is a really helpful perspective, I think, to end to get to know yourself, when you're in that, wow, the ideas are just coming. Capture them go with it. And then when you're in that quiet, I'm just doing the work mode, I'm smashing it out. Or you're in the extroverted making connection space, or just that, who I need to refill the well. Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Yeah. And that's the thing, too, I think because, you know, as we're, there's different times in our life when we're so conscious of where we are in our cycle. And then there's other times in life where we just, it's not even on our radar. So and that's the thing to get back in touch with what, where we're at and what we feel at that time, and how that affects our creativity. And, yeah, I think that's a really important thing to think about. Because sometimes just sneaking away for power nap, is actually going to be more productive in the long run, than just trying to push through. Yeah, that's so important. I think there's this, there's been this massive, sort of focus on, I don't know what they call it like the, you've got to be productive all the time. You're smashing out things. And you've got the, I can't remember what they used to be this hashtag about? I don't know, you get where I'm coming from that hustle culture? Sort of Yeah. And you've just, it's almost like wrist was something that you'd give yourself as a reward, not as something that is part of just your, your regular life, I suppose. And, yeah, I feel like it's changing is definitely I mean, certainly the people that I follow, there's this idea that we, the old self care Sundays, that the hashtag still gets around, but it's a night, you can be mindful of that any time of the day. And like you said, if you feel like you need a nap, because that's going to make you more productive later, then do it, you know? And that comes down to judgment to be that, you know, how are you sleeping in the middle of the day? You know, aren't you supposed to be doing something, you know, all those little voices from a naive, maybe capitalist or a patriarchal sort of society come into our head and say, Yeah, what do you do in that for? Yeah, and not recognizing that creativity doesn't like to be on 24/7. And you've actually probably only got about four hours max, of that really intense work, new work, creative work in you. And if you do any more, in a day of that kind of work, you're probably going to be in creative debt the next day, so mixing it up with admin, housework, whatever, without breaking concentration, but just knowing your limits, learning to feel where you're at, is this the time to go with the flow, this is the time to say, Okay, that's enough. And also, brain science is fabulous in this recognizing there are different ways our brain works different aspects of our brain for different tasks. And when we stop, and go away and do something different, like take a walk, take a shower, take a nap, chop vegetables, back in your floor, your brain flips into this different zone. And when it's in that zone, it's almost like neutral. Yeah, what it does is it starts making connections between all of these completely different areas in your brain, ideas, thoughts, memories, experiences, and it starts making solutions that are completely unique. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? Like I find, it's almost like I think did Einstein call it the theta state or the theta state? It's something to do with when your brains at rest. And it doesn't have to be actual meditation doesn't have to be laying down meditating. But it's like you're doing a repetitive or, I don't wanna say mindless because, but you're basically chopping vegetables when you said that. It's like you're doing a repetitive thing and your body goes into like muscle memory, and it just does it. Yeah. And then that gives your mind the time to, like you said, makes the connection and you're not conscious of it. It's not a thing that you're thinking, necessarily, but like the shower, going in the shower and walking are the two biggest times I get ideas. It's like you're just open and stuff just comes in and it's just amazing. I quickly get out of the shower and just record things on my phone or exactly I need a whiteboard in the shower. But it's true, isn't it like you need you need the ebbs and flows and your body has to have time and your mind has to have time to process things and then get you ready for the next load of whatever you're doing. And as a mom, if you can embrace that, then that it just works, doesn't it because we spend a heck of a lot of time, and vegetables and cleaning things and driving and. And we need to exercise you know, just to keep ourselves together. And walking is such a great way to do that. Those things can be part of our life. And when we realize I'm not beating myself up while I'm doing those things about all the things I haven't done yet. I'm relaxing and recognizing this is a really powerful part of the rhythm. And if I'm open, I'm excited to see what floats into my head. Potentially while I'm chopping broccoli. Yeah, yeah, I love that. That is so awesome. So I, I do a lot of yoga. And it's that the best stuff is like you do all your asanas and do all the movement, do some breathing. And then you have a nice meditation and you have a heavy Shavasana. And it's like, okay, what can you give me now like, you know, you're so open, and you're so relaxed, and your body's in that, that state, and then you can just you just get the best ideas, but I do anyway, I just love it. I'm not a yoga practitioner at all. But I do like silent meditation before the just what I should say, I don't necessarily love the doing of it. But I love the effect of it and learning that just even 10 minutes of silence just ignoring the chatter that my mind comes up with. Actively just letting it go that Yeah, yeah, it does put you in an amazing place to think clearly and be more energized, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. I'd always get up from my shavasana and my yoga teacher, she'd be like, Okay, what if he got first this time, like, because it was become this joke that I just be like, Oh, guess what, I just thought of what some I just came up with like, it was just, yeah, I'll just. If there are people in your audience who are wanting to learn to draw paint, dive into that part of their creativity, then come Come find me, the confident artists Facebook group, there's a lot of people in there who are enjoying their creativity together at all different levels. And I have a blog on my website that's got some really helpful tools and tips for enjoying your creativity, learning to draw and paint. And if you already painting and drawing and you're thinking, Can I do this? Could I really make money doing something I love? How do I even start selling art, then head to my website, Fiona valentine.com, I've got a free guide on how to start selling your art that talks about how to get clarity, and how this works, how to think about your pricing. And there's a lot of other resources there on my website, you can find out about the coaching program, the profitable artist method. And if you've got questions, just let me know, there's a button where you can hop on a free call, and we can talk about your creative journey and how you can get some support are fantastic. Yep. So I was gonna ask you, what's the best way to go ahead and get in touch but you've just answered that for me beautifully. Thank you. And also on your website, you've got some information on Oh, yes, innovation workshop. You'll see that in the tabs on my website, there's a tab for business school that talks about the profitable artists method. And it's another tab that says the art of innovation workshop. And that's where companies or you know, collection of people who want to get together and do a two hour online zoom workshop to learn how to draw so that you can boost your creative potential. And you can use it like an exercise taking your brain to the gym. So yeah, you'll find all that information there too. Thank you so much for coming on today. I've really enjoyed talking with you is raised some points that I've sort of lost along the way somewhere, you know, especially that that you know, keeping in touch with your emotions and your cycle and that kind of stuff. So yeah, really valuable to have you here and thank you so much for giving me your time today. Thank you so fun to talk with you and your music is beautiful, Allison. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Oh, do you have to keep an ear out for the next year when which will hopefully be the end of the it's been a slow process, but I don't mind that. It just happens when it happens and amongst everybody else. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Bianca Morra US photographer + podcaster S2 Ep58 Listen and subscribe on Spotify , Apple podcasts (itunes) and Google Podcasts My guest today is Bianca Morra, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland Ohio and a mother of 2. Throughout her schooling Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path. Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg and his series Rich and Poor, and it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than a pretty picture, it could be used to convey and tell stories. Feeling inspired, she went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Photography and Digital Imaging with a minor in Business Art and Design. After Bianca's employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business, She works as a professional photographer capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more, through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take photo, at any time, and for mums to get in the photos too. Bianca has created the Help Me See podcast - where she holds vulnerable, real conversations challenging the cultural norm & empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as an intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favours helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just seeing it. Above all else she believes that photographing your life is a not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now, as we take each photo. **This episode contains discussion around mental health, post natal/partum depression ** I like your work podcast / Monika Crowley's work / Grace Tame Bianca Instagram / website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you I encourage you to seek help from those around you, or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of international resources here . Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mothers work is influenced by their children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. My guest this week is Bianca Mora, a photographer and podcaster from Cleveland, Ohio, and Bianca is a mom of two boys. throughout school, Bianca was drawn to photography at different times, but pushed it aside to study mainstream subjects. She didn't seriously consider that photography could be a career path, Bianca stumbled on the work of American documentary photographer Jim Goldberg, and particularly his series rich and poor. And it was through this that she discovered that photography could be more than just a pretty picture. It could be used to convey and tell stories. She went to Ringling College of Art and Design in Florida, where she did a Bachelor of Fine Arts in photography and digital imaging with a minor in business, art and design. After Bianca is employment abruptly ended, she took that as an opportunity to start her own business. She works as a professional photographer, capturing memories for families, and as a course facilitator encouraging people to understand themselves more through the understanding of why they take the photos that they do. Bianca believes in not being afraid to take your phone out and take that photo at any time. And for mums to get in the photos to. Bianca has created the podcast called helped me see where she hosts vulnerable, real conversations, challenging the norms and empowering listeners to harness their intentional vision for a purposeful life. Her photography style can be described as intimate, she has a love for texture and imperfections in her photo editing that favors helping clients feel themselves back to the moment rather than just saying it. Above all else. She believes that photographing your life is not a luxury, it is unequivocally essential. We are creating our nostalgia now as we take each photo. Please be aware this episode contains discussion around mental health, postnatal depression, and anxiety. Today's episode you'll hear music from my trio called LM Joe. We create ambient and new age music, myself, my sister Emma Anderson and her husband, John, and you can find the links to listen to more in the show notes. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you. Or from the resources online. I've compiled a list of great international resources, which can be accessed by the podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. I hope you enjoy today's episode. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. It's really a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Oh, thank you so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here. I mean, from the second I just read the title of the podcast when I first became aware of it. I was like, Well, I mean, the most perfect thing ever right up my alley. Oh, that's brilliant. So we're about to you in America. I am about 20 minutes outside of Cleveland, Ohio. Right. So where's that in relation to? I don't know. What's a big city that I know New York. Where is it new in realize now it's seven hour drive from New York? Ah, okay. So it's sort of sort of in the ballpark. there somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Cool. So what's it like over there at the minute is you're coming in to use spring it was summer, spring now. It's definitely getting warm that I feel like we skipped spring and headed straight to summer for some reason. It was like blistering cold and now all of a sudden, it's like super humid. Right. So what sort of degrees like daily temps to get there? We've been around from 70s to 80s in the last few days, but I don't know it's pretty turbulent. It really wavers. Yeah, right. I'm just gonna look at what that is. is in Celsius. So fair. I have this thing where I like I have a I've always been like, are 20? About 21? Yeah, that's nice. I like to know about people's weather. I don't know, it just helps me put things in context, if I can visualize and feel myself in, is I understand what your place is like. Oh, totally sure thing I've always done. And it's, it's weird, but I don't know, it's just one of those things. Like, I just want to know, when you wake up, do you put on a sweater or shorts? Let's see these in that. Yeah, you can feel like I can. Yeah, I want to say I can make a judgment about a face because that's not really true. It's very superficial. But you know, you can get a feel for a place if you sort of get the vibes. What's happening? Yes. You're a photographer and a podcaster, can you share with us what you do how you got into it, I never in a million years planned on creating a podcast at all. It wasn't something that I had planned to do. Basically, last year, about two weeks into my maternity leave, I got laid off from my full time job. And I really didn't see coming like, at all you'd like to think that. And I was there for about six years. And you'd like to think that you would kind of get a sense for it. And when I didn't, I felt very whiplashed I felt so something changed. And I knew that for the tail end of my employment there, it had turned into something that I didn't love. And I knew I wanted to make the switch, eventually to be full time on my own. But I didn't expect the rug to be pulled out from under me. So it was like a little bit of a humbling experience, but also an experience of if I could work that hard and be that loyal, and you know, kind of put that much energy in this one life that I have into someone else's venture, then I certainly can do that for myself. So you know, by the end of it, it was like, Oh, do you would you like to reapply blah, blah, blah. And I was like, You know what? No, I'm gonna double down on myself. At the worst possible time, we had just moved into my new house, our first house ever second baby, you know, it was just of all the times to take the plunge. But you know, in some ways, I feel like it was the best possible time to take the plunge. Because if I wasn't going to do it at the most uncomfortable than what was going to make me do it, you know, otherwise. So? Yeah, that's it. Because when things are really good, you're not your brains not going there is it's Yeah, yeah. Happy. And yeah. Have you had experience in, like photography and that sort of stuff? Like growing up? Or how did you get into that? Yeah. So I was, I really got into it in high school, I was taking all of like, the advanced placement classes, and like the calculus and the English, and it was just what I was doing, but I knew that the only class that I really loved was my photography class. But for some reason, there wasn't. It just didn't occur to me, it didn't dawn on me that I could pursue that it was just like, oh, but that is just too good. This too fun. And I didn't really take it like seriously as a career path. And then I had happened upon Do you know who Jim Goldberg is? He's a documentary photographer, and I happened upon his work. And I remembered specifically because it definitely was a moment where I felt like my brain changed. Like, it was like a, you know, one of those electric moments, where and it was particularly the series he did on the rich and poor, and it were these black and white photographs. They were just very honest, looking at the camera, and then he would hand it to them and have them just write something about what they thought about the photo. So it was just this moment where I was like, oh, like photography can be more than a pretty picture. Like it was just it seems very trivial, but it was a huge moment for me and my brain. And so after that I decided to go pursue it in college. So I went to a private art school, a Ringling College of Art and Design in Sarasota, Florida, and I graduated with a BFA in photography in digital imaging with a minor in Business art and design there and so yeah, that's that's my background and I had I mean, I had been photographing since you know, I could get those digital or those disposable cameras in a very composed The way I, I say that when I was in middle school, there was this moment of me laying in my bed, looking at the ceiling about to fall asleep, where I think the concept of death just dawned on me as well. Things kind of dawn on me like a two boys. I remember thinking about, you know, just like nothing mattering. And I don't know, something just panicked in me. And I felt like, oh, I need to make things to let people understand how I feel about them, I need to make things because eventually, what I think and feel might not matter, like my favorite color, and my favorite band, like might not matter. But whatever I make, can be left behind. So I very much became a maker from that point. Do you find when you watch movies, that you can't just watch it, you have to like find the deeper meaning in everything. Like, it's just I have to I honestly, I have like two modes. I either I have to watch the very, very, like easy to watch like Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the you know, deep emotion, or I'm in the depths of No, I don't know, I I I think I'm I just this past year became familiar with the term HSP highly sensitive person, I really think that I'm like, like, medically that I can't even if I know it's not real, and it didn't happen. I carry it like an anchor on my chest for like weeks. So I have to pick and choose my intake. Yep, no, I can relate to that. It's like that empaths sort of energy where you take it in. And it's like you're experiencing spirit experiencing yourself. Like, I can't listen to like true crime or anything like that. Because I can visualize myself and feel myself in the position of that person. Both people like the victim and the perpetrator. Like, I just can't do it. It's too much. Yes, yeah. And I dropped my sister mad when we watch movies, because there's darkness and she's up there like the I don't know, I can. Yeah. Settlers my, my partner, he is a computer animator. So if we're ever like watching a Pixar movie, or something we'll be watching and be like, Do you know how hard it is for them to do those bubbles. And like a few of us it's really, it's really should be hilarious. And it's like, you're gonna give it to us about your bubbles. Like, oh, my gosh. So I heard about this exercise to like write a letter to someone that inspires you deeply. And then to someone that drives you nuts and to after you're done writing it, change the name to your own name, and then read it again. And, gosh, I want to give credit where it's due, I believe it was on a podcast called I like your work. Yeah, I believe that's what it was. And I was like, that sounds so interesting. So I was in my studio. And I just started writing a letter to this photographer that I loved so much. And I was like bawling, like by myself up and he's like, passed like he passed young. I never met him no exposure to him. But for some reason I feel this like, deep soul connection to him. Anyway, but it made me want to get a tattoo for him because I a few years ago, I purchased a book of his on eBay. And I could have gotten it brand new. But I chose to buy the one that he signed, but he labeled it to bill. And I was like how could bill sell this? He touched it. He taught like I was like, No, I want it. I don't care if it's effed up like I want to have the book that he touched in some way like that. I don't know I carry something for me. So it was like if I get like a a tattoo that said Dear Larry love Bill Oh my gosh. Oh, fat. It reminds me I had a conversation the other week with a lady who's a potter functional product, but she also does some ceramic stuff. And we're talking about how, when you pick up a piece of pie, I've got a not a sugar bowl, what's it called a fruit bowl. And when I pick it up, sometimes I put my thumb in the same spot where there's an indent of the thumb of the person who made it. And it's just that incredible connection. Like, oh, I just spins you out. Like, I just love that, that. Yeah. That just gave me goosebumps. Ah, yeah. Tell us more about your podcast, what it's called, and what you do, and all that sort of stuff. So the podcast is called helped me see. And it it's funny, because it's probably the least planned thing I've ever done in my life. And it continues to be that. And I know that it has to be that for me to continue doing it. So helped me see is all around just having very real and honest and vulnerable conversations, you know, much like you do here, you know, challenging norms. And also just trying to make sense and meaning out of these, like, these feelings that we have that we swear we know better, but we can't help but have and like the wavering of it, and the waffling of it. And so I do have guests on the show. But I also do a lot of solo episodes that are just basically like my audio diary recordings of me just talking about the things that really rev me up. And I would say that one of the, although my focus is in Photographic Arts, and I really have a strong passion point for kind of reimagining the way that we think about our photographs and the way we photographs or our lives. I would say one of the main driving forces of me, being so radically transparent with my own feelings is when I had a bout with postpartum depression. And after my first child, and I was just so taken aback and kind of mad at no one and everyone, I felt like so shocked that I could feel this bad and not have had any sort of exposure to it. Like I and I feel like it is getting better. I do feel like I maybe it's the algorithm, I don't know. But I feel like I'm seeing so much more just like honest sharing. But I think that I just felt so shocked that I was so shocked by how I felt and didn't see it coming at all that I was like, I will never, I will never hide my truth, even if it helps one person. Like I remember coming back from maternity leave. And you know, people were so innocent and welling, well intentioned, but would be like, Oh, that must have been so lovely. And I was like, No, it was really terrible. It was really terrible. And I could see them be uncomfortable. But I had to I had to just be honest, because, you know, that's how I know. That's how I got there. So you know, that person innocently having that exchange with me? If I were to have, you know, glazed by it, perhaps they might be more apt to experience that. So, you know, I love that. Yeah, because I think I have had my own experience with postnatal depression as well. And it's really important, I believe, for what you're doing and what I attempt to do as well to normalize these emotions, that it's not bad, you're not a bad mother for feeling this way. It's a society has got this, this set of expectations of how you're supposed to feel. And I just want to smash them up and say that we can feel however, we want to feel how we need to feel and the more we talk about it, the better that we're all going to be because I think that's the thing the woman that said that to you might not have been a woman sorry. That's how she's been exposed to it. And probably the same thing has had people who maybe didn't have the courage that you did to say actually, no, that's this is not how it is, this is how it is, you know, this is reality. You know, if everybody goes around pretending that it's fine, then you know, it'll continue to be the way it is. Or has been. So yeah, good on you. I mean, in that it, it those are the more acute like I'd say heightened important areas but it, it is rampant. It's like when someone just says, Well, how are you? If you ever say anything other than fine or oh, great, then it's like, okay, that's too much. I just asked because it's a social norm, you're supposed to say, you the script, the script, you know, don't deviate from the script. Yeah, that's it, isn't it like the are there's a delay, I've just started following on Instagram. Who, I mean, there's a lot of women that are doing it now, which is great, you're basically telling it like it is, you know, I'm not a bad mother, because I, I got frustrated with my children today, because they wouldn't listen to me, you know, just just calling it out and saying, This is fine. This is life, and we're allowed to feel crap. You know, the thing that I found really challenging, when I was starting to tell people about my personnel depression is that I, no one said it to me, but I had this idea in my head that I should feel grateful that I was able to have children. So I shouldn't feel this way, you know. And, honestly, it's like, you cannot control the chemicals in your brain, you cannot control that, you know, I've had actually had someone tell me once that depression wasn't real, and I thought, you've never experienced it, you've got no idea, this woman that I met, that, that was reckoned through daily affirmations, you could keep yourself well. And I said to her short, that might be able to help with a low mood, you know, a bit of exercise never hurt anyone, you know, getting outside and talking yourself up a bit. That's great for low mood, but if you use you actually, physically in your brain, the chemicals are not doing what they're supposed to do, then you're going to experience an altered sense of reality. And that's the truth of it. You know, I feel like slapping this woman when she told me that I won't speak to her anymore, because it's like, how do you know, it's scary, it's scary that those those sentences can come out of, you know, because, you know, thank goodness that you have the understanding that you do, because I mean, the last thing someone needs is to feel even more isolated. And yeah, I definitely relate to what you were saying about oh, I should, all the things you should feel it's the least amount of helpful when I was going through it. I'm like, Oh, I'm not in the NICU. I was going through all the reasons why it didn't make sense. And I, you know, should be grateful that something that I was talking about recently is, you know, this, this not only toxic positivity, because I feel like that's was a huge thing for me. But also, I feel like the more nuanced version is weaponizing gratitude with yourself. Oh, I should be grateful. I'm grateful. Why am I feeling if I was more grateful, I wouldn't feel like this. And it's just the least amount of helpful thing ever. Oh, yeah. I want to mention a quote that I found through your Instagram, which was amazing, and I want to hear more about it. So you said the photograph is not just a souvenir to help you remember? Can you share more about that? And the sort of the deeper meaning behind that? Yes, it's strange to hear me quoted. I was like, what what did I say? Say your face you like? Yeah, the photograph is not a souvenir just to help you remember, I, I truly feel that. Photographs, although that is a huge benefit of them. It's not just something to help you remember, I think that it's something that can be used to help you engage more in your life. It's an active viewing and experiencing of your life. And I also there's no notion of, you know, a moment frozen in time, although it is very much an image that stays the same. The meaning transforms and transcends like, time and space. And you know, that staying the same, but we're continuing to grow our lives are changing circumstance, everything. So you can take a photo of something and feel a certain way about it. And two weeks later, a month later, 10 years later, feel completely different about it. First photograph is semi meaningless, and then all of a sudden, it becomes the most important thing because it's the last of whatever, you know, it's just this these magical little blips, I call them breadcrumbs for your life. because not only is it something that I believe to be like a form of acknowledging and, you know, being more present in the moment. But it's also this gift that you give yourself later in life to seek comfort, understanding, healing. I mean, just so much. There's just, it's just the whole world. I mean, that can dive into every nook and cranny. And it's incredible to me, because it's, you know, and I think that it's in today's day and age, it's almost being looked at as something that's like a gluttonous act. Right? Like, whenever you feel like the impulse to take a photo, it's almost like a shameful thing. Like, why can't I just be present? And that is like, yeah, yeah, that's my soapbox. Yeah. And this this thing that oh, you've always got your phone in the in your hand, because you're always thinking about a photo. Yeah. Yeah, I can relate to Yeah, hearing that. Feeling. Yeah. But I mean, you are your own internal compass. And I think that we are super sophisticated. And we know if it's coming to enough to distinguish where that's coming from, you know, if you are feeling the pressure to take a photo because of an expectation, or because you want to post it or, and you also know if it's a very organic spark that you just, it comes out of you. And it's before you even realize that your phone is out. And it's because you have this deep inner knowing that this is a moment for you. Like we see a bajillion things a day, like 360 degrees, like, if we're blessed with eyesight we see so much in a day. And when you have that spark of like, I want a photo of this. It is like a recognizing so many more levels into a moment than we I think we're aware of in that moment. It's like we're wise beyond her years. And, you know, if we just take the photo, even if it's a super snapshot, casual, not cute, whatever, I believe that those are breadcrumbs for leave or later for reason. I was thinking about this, leading up to talking to you I have I have a thing where I have to take photos of flowers, or what I see is intensely beautiful things. And I was thinking about it as you know, as I would because I think everything is that just because I like beautiful things? Or is it is there's something deeper in there. Like that they make me feel good. Or you know what I mean? Like it's not a frivolous thing. Like I was talking to one of the ladies on the mother world episode, Tasha was saying, like I have I collected a lot of artwork of, I'm not going to show you because it's an absolute mess. But I have a corner in my room where I put the proper artwork that real artists did that I put in frames, and I just I love having them. They're just so beautiful, and I love them. And she was saying how society can view beauty as a frivolous thing. You know, what's your take on that? I believe that. And also, Tasha is like a genius. I wish. I was like, I don't even understand the magic coming out of your mouth right now. I believe that we respond to things that we don't know until we know, I think that it's with the flowers, perhaps one day, okay, like, ah, that's why I get that a lot. I get that a lot. Like, I have these moments where I feel like I've had this incredible breakthrough. And then all of a sudden, I look back and I'm like, I've been doing the same shit for 20 years. It's just a different way. So far as to like, I think that what we're recognizing, and that the same way I feel about taking pictures like of your daily life, like whether it be a flower or whether it be a moment of your kids or whatever, not knowing what exactly you're responding to, until you look back at it from your bird's eye view and find that common thread and understand what it is you're responding to. You know, I just I don't know why this is making me think it's kind of it's similar but not exactly the same. I think about that photographer. I was telling you about my favorite photographer. Ever. I had this moment of like there's this other photographer that I usually am not like the biggest fan of his work. It's beautiful, but I found this one book of his and I was like oh my goodness like I'm I just have this and I didn't understand why. Because I'm like, he's not usually my fit might you know exactly for me, but this feels like, oh, and I open it. I could cry just talking about it. It freaked me out so much. I had no idea. Apparently, my that photographer that's my favorite Larry, she mentored him. And he specifically was the thank you for that book. I was sobbing, I was like, Are you kidding? Like, you can't make that up. And it's just what is for us is for us as for us, and the more we're able to like recognize it. I feel like the more we pull it in, which is why one of in my deep dive, of course, I made I late and it's all about this and our photographic tendencies, but it's called and some people, I don't know if I should change the title, because I feel like some people get confused by it. But it feels so true to what it does. I called it manifest your memories. Because I, I desire to help you just feel more confident in your ability to recognize your right moments, not better photos, not whatever. But the photos that are meant for you. Because once you know what your right moments are, you see more of them, and you create more of them. Yeah, yep. Yeah. When you're aware. And you you've got that in your mind. You're very conscious of it. And yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your course there. Can you share more about what you do in your career? You post creation in your education? For people? Yeah, yeah, it's, I mean, it's all about in uncovering of you. It really is. I know, it's, sometimes it takes me a bit to explain, because I think that because I'm a photographer, I think it's more expected that I'm helping you take better pictures, but really, it's helping you kind of understand what you're responding to, and what that process can give to you. Because it really can be depending on, you know, the emotional state you're in, you can take a snapshot, because you just want to quickly get it and just be in the moment or it could really be like inexperience, I think that we underestimate the amount of decisions we make, especially people that don't quote unquote, identify as creative, which is come on, I got a bone to pick with that everyone's creative. Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Yes. It's like all from the framing to the, you know, what, how far you're in or out, even if it's like an amateur, whatever. It's all very important, and just kind of helping us reimagine, and like gain a new respect and understanding for your unique vision of your life. Yeah, that's the thing I think you don't want to diminish, just because the photo might not be aesthetically perfect or pleasing or whatever, that does not diminish the fact that whoever took that photo was taking it for a reason that's relevant to them. Which, yeah, and I guess that's art, too. It's like, everything's subjective. You know, the person that painted something, was doing it for their benefit. They weren't doing it, to make it beautiful for you to put on your wall. Like, you know, everyone's got that meaning inside of them that comes out in their creativity. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I was just talking to someone who like, just burst out crying because she was flipping through her phone and she had been somewhere and she just saw, I could cry, she saw a picture that her son had took of her that she didn't know he took, and it's just the thought of, it's enough to bring me to tears, you know, like it just everything has like boundless opportunities for like meaning and to touch you and you know, when I think about our, you know, the quality of like, professional photos or whatever I think about just the complete catalyst for my whole business, which was like the passing of my beloved dog. I say that his passing was like this completely unplanned, unintentional, like, confirmation of my whole concept of like, the work that I'm doing and everything that has come since then, because it was my first real death. It like close to me lucky enough. It was my end. It just happened last year. And it was when I went back to look through the archives of my photos of him. They it was the weirdest thing because if they function the way I thought they would, it was like Yes, this is what I encountered like this fear I carried with me for so long of losing anyone and him. I was interacting with it the way I wanted to, but something that I wasn't shocked by but I was, I was impressed by how intense this was, was my comfort and desperateness for the photos that were the worst quote, unquote, like, the blurry cellphone photos, right just happened to Cat catch, like a really funny look on his face with the jowls or like, you know, us laying in bed, it was so dark, you can barely see. But I remember I just really wanted to capture, like how he was like, nestled in me. And it wasn't the gorgeous, Regal ones, like, I'm so happy to have them. I love them. But the ones that I was yearning for, were not the most beautiful ones. You know, that's, I'm so passionate and sharing that because I would never want someone to not take the beautiful responsibility of taking the most important pictures of their lives, because they're too busy, you know, waiting for a professional to do it for them. Because that professional could never take the most important pictures of your life. It's only you. Yeah, and that's the thing, like, and I have had professional photographers on the show before. So I'm not saying this to diminish their worth, by any means. But I feel like it's something that people they put off until the time's right? Like, I will wait to get the professional shots to finish having our family or I want to lose a bit of weight first before I do it. So you're putting off capturing the moments that are happening, actually your life is happening. Until you get to a point where you feel like things are, I'm putting that in inverted quotes, air quotes, again, a right or perfect, which is the horrible word. You know, so it's like, taking the photos every single day or you know, every time the moment calls to you wildlife is happening. And you can then you can get your photos that you want to have the beautiful photos on the wall, which look amazing. You walk into people's houses. I don't have them because I don't know, I just don't like seeing my big head everywhere. But you know, and what's important to to other people, you know, we're all different, and of what you know, we want. But yeah, like not letting life slip by and not letting life happen to you. But you're actually experiencing your life as it's happening to you. Yes. And I mean, I know that what you're saying makes me think about how, I mean, it's no secret that the most important moments of our lives are the tiniest, like it's the mundane, quiet ones. And, you know, the, the times that we usually think about hiring and investing in you know, photography tends to be the events and, and, you know, for for good reason, too. It's an investment and it's a production, it is a thing, but I mean, I, I think about how funny it is that I'm the photographer of the family. And oftentimes on the holidays, it's the last time I'm pulling out my camera, like unless it's like a camcorder or something because I just, I don't there's already enough going on that day. I don't, I don't need more on the plate like I don't I know for me, those are not the moments that are the most important moments. So unless something trips up inside of me and I do take the photo, but it's kind of like inverted, like those, like those milestone moments are, are very sweet. And they're important not to diminish them. Like the celebration is always important. But I mean, not to be cliche, but it is it's like your life is like everything. And then the graduation. A wedding. It's like, those are not a moment that are like the meat of your life. Yeah, I just as we're talking about that reminds me of I had a guest on the podcast, Monica Crowley. I had her on the podcast. She's an Irish visual artist, and she's really, really passionate about recording. The moment she's a predominant oil. Artists works with oils, and one of her works is of the items in the sink. So she did this series of things that were in a sink because she was spending a lot of time at the sink. So it was like recording just these mundane, everyday ordinary moments. Yeah, because as moms, we we do a lot of repetitive tasks. There's a lot of things we do a lot every day. Yeah. And what how what do you feel about this? Moms making sure they're in photos? Is that something that you're keen about as well? Yes. I actually have a I have a I have to send you the link. It's just a free challenge. I'm so passionate about it. I made this like inbox challenge. It's brilliant. You sign up and you can just get through it's over three days three prompts. I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm saying very simple things. But the point is, my biggest point is in this topic is to not make permanent decisions off of temporary feelings. Because, listen, I'm not immune to this, like, we all know, when we feel like we're having a good day or not having a good day, or we're this or that. But not taking that moment to get in the photo regularly, is making a very strong decision for yourself leader, and not only yourself, but your kids to not, you know, not being in that frame. And also, I mean, I think about my whole life up until, like, last year, I hated my profile, I just hated the bump on my nose hated it. And then all of a sudden, I looked at this photo last year with me and my two boys, and I, it was a straight profile picture. And I was like, I don't care anymore. I was shocked. I was like, not only do I not care, but I actually quite liked that picture. And it's like, imagine if I would have been ducking from the camera, you know, we're very conscious of it. You know, I think that sometimes we can get caught up in like all of the posting in the social media, but we have to remember that, you know, not saying that, to make yourself uncomfortable, when it's not something that feels good to you. But at the same time, take comfort in not all of these photos are for anyone else to see, like your photographs, or you know, it's like your visual diary of your life, you know, so. And I think that we can underestimate our, the healing we get from that as well. I think about what my photos of me from postpartum Of course, I took the pictures of you know, I've made myself up and blah, blah, blah with the babies. But those pictures make me feel uncomfortable to look at because I see myself smiling. And I know, like, I know what it felt like. And it makes me uncomfortable to see those. And then I see the pictures that I took in my lowest hours. Because I do you have that weird thing where I'll take a selfie when I'm not well, and I find such compassion for myself that I don't know that I would have thought to even have for myself had I not seen the pain of like a previous version of myself, it's kind of like, you're looking at a picture of yourself as a little girl. Like you just have this compassion that you don't have for yourself as as naturally now, which is something that you know, I feel like also needs to be worked through and I'm working through but these photographs are openings for us, huh? Yeah, I love that. So one of your I don't know whether just call it a program or a course. Sorry, is called nostalgia now 10 member membership, can you share sharing with us what that is about? That is my newest creation. And I say that I knew that I was onto something when I had when it came to me. And I did a like a mock run of it by myself. And I was so excited that I was like panic, because if I haven't I've been doing this for myself in my life for longer. So in full transparency as as usual with me. So my course I was finding I'm like this is it's just hard to explain succinctly. Right? Like, I don't think that it's people understand it as quickly. And I think that it's it can be confusing if you're not already like a part of this world. And I was like what is a way to like, implement the theory and the function of like what I'm getting at here that in a way that's like doable, simple, sustainable, and like realistic for like busy overwhelmed moms. And this is what I thought of i It's a once a month meeting. And I also have like a portal of like different resources because we have an intention for each month. And I'll add like curated meditations in it and I'll upload the video versions of my podcast as a way to like keep momentum through the month. But at the in this meeting, it's two hours in the first hour is like coworking, so I send out these templates that are just artfully done and there's like only space for three or four photos. And I put like a vague prompts in it like something that made you feel expansive or something that you want to take with you for the rest of your life or something, whatever. And you're only allowed to look at all of the photos up on your scroll from the last month. And so you've been on your music, we are an hour your were muted on Zoom, and you're just looking at the photos that took place. Over the last month of your life, and you can only pick four, which is a weird, hard, but also fascinating thing, it's just this crazy way to get intentional. And also see the scope of what happens in a whole month, I'm shocked at what happens in a whole month. And to kind of like witness yourself from like a bird's eye view, because you know that you're the taker of these photos, and to like, look back and see, notice what you noticed, and then create this thing. So you have like this visual of the that month of your life. And then we go around, and it's like adult show and tell. And we just talk about why we chose each photo. And you know, like, what that month and that intention felt like for us. And I really feel like it's such a beautiful way to check in with yourself and make space for yourself in a in a cadence that is realistic, but also so helpful. Because how often do we look back? And we're like, it's been six months into the new year, what the fuck am I doing, like I said, I'm gonna do this, and I haven't and whatever. So it's a way to like, keep you account a gentle way to like, keep you accountable, and like connected to yourself and to your, you know, wrapping up a month and saying, Okay, this is the way this month played out. And like, this is what I'm hoping for this month, you know, and to keep you sort of anchored to the moment. So like, I know, I'm the same, like, it's June, this is insane. Like, what has happened. But yeah, and to actually take stock each month and remembering that Ah, that's right. And, and I think that's important that that why we took that photo and why we chose to include, you know, included in the prompts. In those four photos, like it gives you that time to reflect on yourself, and maybe how you feeling or things that you might like you said, things you want to do that you're putting off or, you know, it's like, I don't want this to sound rude at all. But it sounds so simple, but it's so big and meaningful. You know, like, it's just, I don't know, it's really powerful, isn't it? And as moms like we're so we are so busy, and we're always doing things for other people. And to be able to carve out time for ourselves can often feel like, you know, a luxury or guilt thing, you know, but to actually stop and take stock of ourselves, you know, instead of always saying to other people, how are you? How can I help you, you know, what does this person need? What are my children need, you know, looking at ourselves. And that can be challenging, I think for for many people would be hard to say Well hang on a minute, I'm the least person that matters here. You know that we're putting everybody else first all the time. So it would open up so many things for for everybody. Oh, it's incredible. And it's you know, right now it's a very intimate group. And I will I first to admit, I am a self proclaimed hermit introvert, like the community part of any up until a year ago, the community part of anything I was like, Okay, I mean, I'm a lone wolf. I'm the person that if I was in a group in high school working on a project, I'm like, I'll see you later I'll put your name on it fine. Like not at all, but the value of connecting with like, like feeling souls, not even like minded or like, it's just people that you just see each other. I mean, every time we like, there's almost tears, you know, and it's just so to be witnessed, to be able to like speak your truth and also be witnessed by people that you just know, get it. It's, I don't know that there are words for it really, like I feel like often people can kind of shrug it off and I know that I was one of those people before experiencing it for myself. But you know, I think that that element of it not only does it keep us accountable to actually do it, but it makes it so much more fruitful and if it gives it so much more space. Hmm. Yeah. Now I love it good on you. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I'll put all the links if anyone's interested in checking this out. I'll put all the links in the show notes and that is awesome. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mom, Alison Newman. Now, let's talk about your children. Oh yeah. The D so you've got two children, boys, two boys. Oh boy. I'm hearing you in almost four year old caches, and then Silas is like 16 months. Oh, nice little boys. Yeah. And they are so different. So different. My first one. It's funny I, I have like, I really do wonder if like their births had something to do with how they are now because my first one was is a very sensitive, deep feeling intense, little boy. And like my labor was really hard. It was like a very, I got postpartum, the whole thing. And then my second son, I was like bopping on a ball Post Malone. And he is just a savage. She is like, nothing upsets them. Everything's a joke to him, like, different. You know what, there might be something in that because my first labor was very, very quick and intense and incredibly, horribly insane. And my sense, the same is a real is real impact. Everything's really deep. And he takes things in so sensitive. And the other one ah, water off a duck's back, you know, completely different. How old? So the older one, he's 14, and my little one is about to turn seven. So, so it stayed true. It stayed true to them as they grew. Oh, hey, personality? Absolutely. They're just like chalk and cheese. Unbelievable kids. Larry sees often wonder how that happens when you've got the you know, in our case, you know, the same the same parents? How are they? Ah, it's insane. How do you find then they're coming into your world, you becoming a mom, how has that affected the way you see things in your photography? I feel that they've definitely, it's like a, I don't know, it's making me think about like a magnifying glass like, wood on concrete. With the sudden I get it feels like a very acute, like heightened everything. But I definitely really didn't know I didn't understand what my transformation would be like in becoming a mother. I think I had this underlying belief that once I had children, my cup runneth over from them. And I would the emphasis like, because, you know, I'm a naturally anxious person, I get very overwhelmed, but I felt like once I have kids, like that will be my world. I will focus on that. And that will be so fulfilling and XYZ and this is how I'm going to be. That's not at all how I was like, it's just crazy to me. And it you know, it sounds so naive. But I really did think that like I had a friend who had a baby who, you know, she was very much on the fence and didn't know if she ever wanted one. And then when she did she was just on genuinely on cloud nine blissed out. And I was like, Oh my gosh, if she was blissed out, I'm gonna be like, correct because I have been wanting a baby for so long. Just not at all, how, how I felt and how I've kind of processed the change, but, you know, they are still like a boot camp for me. I mean, I am like, a they're a mirror for me in that. They intensify all of the best and worst in me. And I am so aware of when I'm at my worst in terms of what I'm feeling and what I don't want to project because I don't want to pass on the traits that I've inherited to my children. So there, they keep me honest, in not that I'm always you know, I always pass the test in, you know, not doing my natural reactions. I I have like a very overly protective worrywart, Italian New York father. And I just grew up with like, the most worry, fear consumed everything. And I'm very much trying not to pass that on. And I know that they can sense even when I'm not saying it, I know that they can sense that energy from me. So they're really helping me to become more aware and work through that. Hmm. Yeah, I can relate to that. That's yeah. I love that. It's interesting. I actually saw this quote, this just this morning when I was scrolling. I really want to find it now. But I don't know if I'm gonna be able to it was about the gist of it was how basically the gist of it was We're very different parents and our parents were deliberately we're trying to do things differently. We're trying to, and I'm not saying our parents did a bad job, that was the world that they lived in is a different world that we're parenting in. Yeah. What was, you know, acceptable, the norms of what you did and how you interacted with your children. So we're conscious of that. And we want to, I mean, I guess we don't, we don't want to put our kids through things that we went through, you know, being kind to our parents that are listening. And they probably say the same thing about their parents, you know, each generation learns as we go. So, it's, it's overwhelming, because it's like, it's everywhere. Like, it's in the most innocent of places, and the most normal of tongues, like, I think about something that'll fly out of my mouth. And, or I'll hear someone else say, and I'm, like, hold the phone. That is so effed up, like, so. It was, you know, if my kids no tears, be a big boy, no tears, I'm like, Just fucking terrible. But it's like, so it's so quote, unquote, innocent. But it is until it's not like, it's like, thank goodness, we're having these like, awakenings to it, but it's like, kind of, you know, if you sleepwalk through it, and if you just let it happen, because that's what has been done before. We all know how that goes, you know. So it, you know, all we can do is the best we can do, but it could drive you crazy. So I think that giving grace and being grateful for the awareness, because that is the most beautiful thing. And that, you know, I mean, it just does tie back to the way I think about photography. I the awareness and the impulse and the thought to take a photo, just the recognition of like, hey, that doesn't feel right saying that to my kid, or that is so much more powerful than any action you take. In that moment. Like, you could fuck it up. You could say you could have said that and like, then they went to school and you didn't have a moment to make it right in that moment. Or, you know, you know, you thought to take the photo, and then you did but it didn't feel right, you wish you didn't, whatever. It's, it's the awareness. It's the seeing it, that is the biggest breakthrough of all that unlocks everything that comes after and it builds from there. So I think releasing ourselves of like, doing it wrong, or like should have what occurs or regrets and just feeling gratitude for like, Hey, I saw that, like, I'm aware of that. Yeah, that was a big, that's a really good point, isn't it? It's, it's really relating to like this conversation that I'm having right now, presently, actually, ironically, about how, like presence and how this term feels like this elusive like, Yeah, can't ever grasp it. Like I, I always am hearing often that like, a lot of people, I feel this I've set it to, it's hard to be present in my life. And what really got me thinking about this in a more, like, problem solving type of way is that when I would tell people that I truly believe that you don't have to choose between being present and taking the photo, I would see their shoulders drop, like, as I was anyone to tell them give them permission how to be in their life the way they want to be. And it just made me think about how we are putting presence on this pedestal and like thinking that like, it has to be this, you know, this like come to whatever moment when really, we need to just recognize our own unique ways of being present. Because it's not just one way it's not just you know, we are when we are we are and it looks in different ways. Like sometimes I think about presence. He even when you look it up the definition is like to not have your mind stray from the current situation. And when I don't I don't even agree with that. It's like sometimes presence is like, okay, like, I'm looking at the pores on my kid's face and like, really like studying him. And I'm present and sometimes I'm present and I feel like I can see through like different lifetimes. I'm like looking at a moment. And I like zoom up and I can see like so much more and of course my brain is Going somewhere else, but like, I really feel like both versions of presence in my life like I don't Yeah, that see, I can agree with that too. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, I can't even explain it but I know what you mean Yeah. Now I'll go to a subject that I really I love talking about. And I always say it sounds terrible when I say I love talking about guilt. But I just find it so fascinating. And I think that idea when you mentioned about this presents being this attainable thing, everyone's got to be present, because everyone's telling us we've got to be present. And if we're not present, we'll feel bad about it. This whole guilt laden thing, talk to me about your, your thoughts about guilt and like mum guilt, I put that in air quotes as well. It's like, it's like a magician that like keeps pulling like the flags out of his Our scars out of his bag, it just you keep peeling off the layers when you think you're clear of it. I think that guilt, mom guilt is a very specific type of guilt. And I also feel that artist, Mom yield is an even more cute version of it. Because being that intensely aware of the impermanence of something and being able to see the depths of the beauty, and so many moments of your life, can make you feel so beholden to meet that moment there. And sometimes you're just not there. Sometimes you do. The other night, my two little boys are in the tub together the most adorable thing you've ever seen. I just wanted to go on the bed and be scrolling my phone. I just wasn't i How many times are they going to be in the battle? It's like you go through the Rolodex like I know, I know, a B, C, D E, I know why I should be there. But I'm not right now being present for me and to my needs, is to go lay down on the bed and not handcuffed myself to this moment to like, keep my energy where I want it to be to feel like I can actually appreciate them when I'm in that space that I want. And I think about when I first drove the coast to California, for the first time ever, I'd never been to the West Coast. I drove from LA to San Francisco. At first I was like, Hi. I was not literally but like I just felt I was like, Oh, I never seen such beauty in my life. I was like vibrating. By halfway up. I was like, literally nauseous and I don't think it was carsick. I was like, I can't it's too much. Like I feel like I need to and I closed my eyes. I was like, I can't see any more. I can't I can't take in any more. Like, I'm you know, and that's kind of what I feel like about about guilt and about it's this it's the knowing it's that wise like I get it I know all of the reasons why I this is amazing, but I'm just not I'm not there and I think the more that you can feel confident about choosing yourself in those moments makes you even more richly there for the times where you choose that moment you know, that is brilliantly put honestly, I need to put a put a hand clap that was amazing. You have literally summed up how I feel about mom guilt. Don't make me cry. Like honestly. I'm going to take this moment and frame it like that is just so good. You will hear this quote again. Love it. Yes, it is so hard to like to know it's like you know, cuz you sit there and you can be so hard on yourself and you're like I know better. I see this is incredibly How could I not want to be there but you Just there's, there's only so much going on. And that's it, isn't it? And that whole thing of that if we can't, you know, we have, we can't be this martyr, we can't be this completely selfless person that puts our needs above everybody else's. Because we won't survive. And it's not sustainable. And it's not. I don't think it's a good thing to be showing our children either that, you know, the mother is the sacrificial lamb and yes. Yeah, how would you want your child to put themselves like to prioritize themselves and in their life? You know, it's funny, I this quote, I went to an artist talk in when I was living in San Francisco, and it was it stuck with me. It's one of those things that stuck with me, there's a couple of those. And you know, sometimes something sticks with you. And you're like, I don't know that this is going to be good to be sitting in me. But I've had a couple of those moments. But this one that in particular, I'm thinking of I'm thinking of it's Francis Ford Coppola. And it was a q&a part of the lecture. And someone raised their hand and said, Well, what advice would you give a young artists director in their career? And he sat there for a moment, and he said, It was the most honest thing you could have said, you can't even get mad at him. He was like, I'd say, if you're a male, the starting your career, get married, have children. If you're a woman, don't get married, don't have children. Like that was his career advice. He's right. He was right for what he was saying, for that time. I get it. Because I feel that I'm in a very balanced relationship. And it's still not balanced. It's still there is not apples to apples. If we had the same night planned, and he was out, my my partner was out. And then I was out, we took turns. I'm not exaggerating, the night would be three times harder. For me. They're different children with me, they feel there's so much more turbulent, absolutely. It's just the way it is. And unlike the natural, and he and my partner, he is so accommodating and helpful when I need it. But this the setpoint the state that is the weight sways this way. And, you know, there has to be work done to help balance that and we have to be extra vocal, in my experience, I have to be extra vocal to speak for my needs. And that requires excavating and that requires, you know, realizing inequities where we don't even realize it's happening, but it is so deeply ingrained. We don't even identify them. Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, it's funny that I feel like my children like I had a perfect example last night where my little fella was some my husband and put him to bed. And he was out. Two minutes later, he came down to me and wanted to chat and I. And I said, I said, Hang on a sec, aren't you supposed to be in bed? And he goes, Yeah. And I said, I said, I, I did hate using these words, but I do. I said, I'll tell dad. And he goes, and he races back to bed. And my, my eldest son was there. And I said, Hi, why does that happen? And he goes, he goes, Yeah, I remember when when I was little, that wasn't even home. But you pretended he was home and called out to him. And that made me get back in my bed. You know, but like, my husband is not, you know, a big domineering men. He's not like physically like, he, you know, he doesn't there's no reason for my children to fear him. It's just this whole thing or wait till your dad gets home you know, like this. This culture is you know, dead serious. Our mom you know, she might let me stay up a bit longer because she's a softy. You know, it's just this it takes me an hour to get my son in bed if I he like puts a I say it's like his physical alarm system on me. He'll swing his leg over mine. So I tried to like double Oh, seven get out of the bed and I can so I'm like, half the time I fall asleep putting him to bed because he prisoner. And, uh, he, my partner will put them take him up. He sings to lullabies to him, and he's out and that's it. I'm like, Ah. And it's like, it's beautiful. And but that's the thing too. Like, what the girl it's like, sometimes I love it. I always used to think before I had kids. I'm like, How precious is it that they only want mommy? Now I'm like, wow. Oh, no. And sometimes I love it. And sometimes I hate it and that's fine. That was like when, when the boys were little they they often they say dad dad first, like, that's easier for a child to pronounce. Oh, when's he gonna say mom? When's he gonna? Like he says, Mom, and then he never stopped saying that kid is saying, Well, that's what we feel about my, my youngest walking, everyone's like, is he walking yet and we're like, we don't want him. Like, he'll be walking the rest of his life. It's a new world for us, like we joke about like kicking his knees out from under a cake curl and maybe ctrl T. Yeah, look, I love the way that this conversation has become, I know we're being quite light hearted. But it's, it's true. Like, there is nothing wrong with saying, I need a break in this situation, whatever the situation is, and not feeling guilty about I should be doing this, I should be there, you know, this should that, you know, we put on ourselves because of the external use sort of pressures that we feel. I don't know, I keep I have this thing with social media. You know, it's great. And I utilize it a lot for, you know, my needs for my, for my podcasts and my singing and stuff. But I think it's got the way that people use it. It's got quite bad at making us feel like crap. It's got quite good at making us feel like crap questions. Yeah. You know, all these things are getting better. And like I said before, it might be the algorithms, I'm seeing a lot of good things. But I still feel like there's this, we're just, we don't want to tell it like it is. We want to keep this facade up that everything's fine and everything's good. And this may be a parent's wave, like, you don't speak about who you voted for. And you don't talk about religion, you know, that sort of that way of doing things. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think something that I heard recently brought up and like, oh, boy, yeah, it's true is it's like a a wave of curated authenticity, like, quote, unquote, real like, oh, yeah, this is this is Instagram real Instagram real. And then you don't get to see the real root. Like taking it like one step down from the manicured Yeah, I mean, and, you know, I get I get torn with thinking about it and talking about it. Because like, I I feel that just because I decide that I want to be a stand and a, like, take a stand with transparency, and realness doesn't mean that someone else should have to do that. So I, you know, people have very different levels of like, comfortability and privacy. And I totally respect that. And, you know, to be honest, I don't, I don't even quite I don't even quite know, like, what, what I want from it, because when I think about how it harmed me with the postpartum you know, anyone that I could get frustrated with, like, I would know that they also struggled, but they struggled internally, which is makes me sad, too. You know, it's not even that like, oh, you only post the highlight reel, and I know you struggle. It's like, what can we do to like, just bring these conversations up, like what you said about how we don't talk about that? Because it's like, oh, it's tacky or it's this or it's that it's like what you know, what, what is the hiding? Like, what is who by whose standards like I think it's so funny whenever my friends like planning something and she's like, well, what's the etiquette? Like, whatever the fuck you think is right like it what's the etiquette? Like, no, I don't, but we're gonna go look up whatever some woman said 200 years ago. even like the right way to be a lady, you know, just like so funny that these things, I think it's just, if nothing else, this constant questioning, it's like, let's keep asking questions like, why are we doing the things that we're doing? Why are we, you know, wanting to, you know, match our coordinator clothes for this the photos like, is it a passion point that you love? Great? Is it something that you feel beholden to? And everyone else is doing it that way? Probably not the best reason to do it, you know, it's like, it's something that's right for you are right for someone else's wrong. And I think as long as we just keep asking questions and keep having conversations like this, and you know, these platforms that we're used to just say, hey, it's been like this for this amount of time. But why, like, why, why are we doing it this way? I think that that is the most helpful thing that we can do. Oh, yeah. I completely agree with that. It's just, yeah, we had I'm not sure if it made it to the to your media over there. But we, we had a prime minister, we've changed prime ministers, thank goodness. His name was Scott Morrison and he he is a dickhead, sorry, sorry, sorry, liberal people. We have a is a young lady over here called Grace time. And she was she's an activist in the space of survivors of sexual assault. And she was named the Australian of the Year in 2021. And she's amazing. She's, she tells it like it is she gets up there. And she doesn't care who she's talking to. She's gonna tell she's gonna talk as she wants to talk. And she did amazing things. And she's do it. And at the end of her 12 months of being Australian of the Year, they have a function it was Parliament House where it was at the house of the Prime Minister. That's irrelevant, sorry. But anyway, he, they all go there, the Young Australian of the Year old Australian here, whatever. And she, we have in the Liberal government in the last three years, there's been this incredible, probably longer than three years, sorry, this incredible tone of misogyny. And there's all this stuff been coming out about sexual assaults happening in the workplace in at the Capitol. And, wow, the Liberal government sort of, I don't know, sort of tried to brush it off and hide it and support it continued to, to employ Members of Parliament while they're under investigation for for alleged sexual assault. And anyway, so she wasn't happy about that, as a lot of us weren't, and she called them out on it. So when she went to this long story short, she went to this end of the year event, and she refused to shake his hand, and she didn't look him in the eye. And all the men of Australia just went, how dare she, she shouldn't have been there if she wasn't going to smile. You know, it was just this huge moment of division, where so many women just went well, good on her, like, what is he done? He's he's trying to hide this stuff. He hasn't put things in place to sort it out, whatever. That it was this moment. And even my husband was like, Oh, she's not going to smile. She shouldn't have gone. It's like, men standards about how women have to behave in society. Like you're just saying that, you know, this etiquette. 200 years ago, this woman says you have to put your fork on you on the right, and the spine goes there. And then you have these cups for dessert, like, oh, just makes my blood boil. Yeah, like, yeah, and her and by her behaving in that way, it's caused this huge arrow, and it's done exactly what the women needed and wanted and it's brought it into the forefront. You know, she was so brave to do that, you know, just don't play Happy Families and don't think that everything's fine. And just smile and get on with life, like women have had to do for hundreds and hundreds of years. And, you know, oh, sorry. No, I think incredible to me, even if, even if he didn't have this huge scandal out and all of these very valid reasons. Even if it was something private that happened that no one else knew about. You don't want to shake someone's hand. You know what the funniest thing was? Probably 12 months before that. We had, we had a lot of big fires over here. We had a really bad fire season. And the prime minister went to okay, this how much of a decrease bloke was while the big fires were happening? He went on a holiday to Hawaii with his family. So everyone was like, He's not present. He's not here and his comment his comeback when he was questioned about he said, I don't hold the hose. Right. That was his comment. He doesn't need to be in Australia while this is happening because he's physically not there putting out the fire and everyone was like, you idiot. So he went in visited the fire grounds and went and visited the where it was all happening and he went up to this fire man put his hand out to shake his hand. And this man said, I don't want to shake your hand right? Everyone in Australia we could on your mate Good on you for not shaking his hand. Right but when when a woman does it for different reasons, but it's still women doing the men went apeshit and all we were Yes. Grown Your Grace. Just it's just incredible. I can't it's like you can't make this stuff up. You can't? Oh, yeah. Want to believe that? It's still like, I know sometimes you feel like you're like am I 100 years ago? Like what is that? What it but it is? It is? Yeah, sometimes you think the only things missing is our corsets in the big skirts, like we're still living in that world. Now I want to ask you about your it to do with that concept of identity about being a mother and, and your children? Do you feel like it's important for your children to know what you're doing and as they grow up to see that their mum is contributing to the world in other ways other than meeting their own needs. I think when I think about what I want my children to know, about me. I think first and foremost, I think about wanting them to feel fully seen. And although I mean, there is a child and you know parent relationship. i i I want them to feel like they I want to prioritize them knowing me like I don't want to have a shield them from the real me in many senses. Like something I heard one said that I thought was beautiful. And it's very simple. It it was actually do you know Dax Shepard is he's an actor. Yes. And Kristen. I forget. Anyway, Kristen Bell, and Dax Shepard. podcast as well. I was on one of his podcast episodes that they were talking about how if they have a fight, and if it's not like they go out of their way to fight in front of their kids, but like, if they have a fight, and they witness in any way or arguing or whatever, they make sure that they also witnessed the resolution and the working through it. It's just like this level of transparency of like, and just knowing like, knowing having my kids know who I really am is important to me, way more than them feeling like that their mom contributed, like whatever I end up doing. That is not as important to me as like, feeling them feeling like they knew who I was, and not having them like discover things about me that you know, and, and that's always kind of been even outside of like being a mother. I've always felt like that, like, one time was a maybe a spicy but whatever. I really like, you know, someone asked me once, how do you feel about being a woman? In a, in a industry where, you know, historically ABCD and bubbeleh have? How is it? How do you feel about your feminine perspective? And I was like, I don't want to sound ignorant and I so I'm grateful to the trailblazers and I you know, there's a wealth of history and there's so much to be said but also, I am not. That is not the lens that I choose to hold with me and frame. What I do and My life and what I put in the world. And I'm grateful that like, I don't have to feel like I'm like, That is a torch that I'm carrying now. And I understand, like, what came before me to enable that. But I'm here and I'm now and that is not something that I'm prioritizing. I'm not thinking about that in that way. So I don't, you know, I don't feel that, you know, being can, beholding myself to contributing in any sort of specific way is something that resonates with me, it's more this like, need of feeling truly seen and being able to say the things that I struggle to say, but I find the words for like, the other day, I was thinking about how, after one of my podcast episodes, I felt like a vulnerability hangover. And it was weird, because I'm always like, I always nothing different about that episode than all the others. But for some reason, I feel like maybe I said something for myself, like more strongly than I usually did. And I was like, you know, why? Why do I feel like that? And it's this idea that I'm growing so much, and, you know, sometimes our perspectives change, but like, if we're too afraid to say something, because we might change our mind will see nothing ever, you know, so yeah. And to be able to say, I actually actually have changed my mind about this, you know, yeah, to not feel afraid. Oh, well, there you go. Haha. You know, people Yeah, and it's like, actually, I've done the work, and I've gone through things, and I've experienced life. And now actually, I feel like this, there's, again, no shame in saying stuff like that. Exactly. And having your children bear witness to that, like, could enable them to, you know, maybe not have such a go with their, with their pride and being able to do the same. So, yeah, so that is like, my number one priority for for whatever my kids can see or think of me is just to see the wholeness of, of what I am. Yeah, I really love that. Baby's really, really lovely. I really love that. So that's the thing, like, I feel like, it's sort of related to times when you'd go to funerals for older relatives, and you discover that they did this, that and the other and, like, Ah, I wish I'd have known that. So I could have asked them about it, you know, saying like, I don't know, I, in my eye, again, challenging the cultural norms, this is what it was at the time, you know, my parents, they would hide, you know, certain conversations from us, and probably for good reason, you know, your child, you don't need to know things, but then that still happens a lot in my life now. And I think that's because of the way my parents were raised, to keep things hidden, you know, children are seen and not heard all this sort of, like I said before, about, you know, you don't talk about your political choices. I could not like my dad and I have the best talk about politics. You know, I could not imagine going through my life not having a sounding board for talking about politics, you know, and for my children to, you know, to grow up understanding about the world, you know, there's things that you do want to talk to them about, you know, and not just hideaway or don't talk about that, you know, again, I respect you know, people were living in different times you know, I'm not I'm not bragging that that was the way it was then. But yeah, and I think that's a really powerful thing to say that you want your children to to really see you and to know you as a person and I think that's that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you Do you have anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't brought up or anything else that's on your mind? You want to know it's just this has been a very juicy conversation. It's been great. It's just so it's so incredible to me. I mean, that I'm able to connect with you on the other side of the world you know, and like we have, we have a lot in common tell you when in a short time, like I feel like we have more in common than we've even uncovered. Just how important this all is. And I think that, you know, something that I saw today, and it makes me think about, right, I'm just thinking about it now. And I'll just say it, I'm, I, I'm in a mastermind with Amber Lee strim. She's a, she's a business coach. And she's really incredible. And she, she said something, she posted something in one of the captions, and it was like, talking about how she put on this, this in person events, when she was going through a time in her business, and, you know, and she was brave enough to do it. And then she did it year after year, and it grew and grew. But at the end, she was saying that, like, even if you're not in the place to, you know, put on inventory, you don't have the resources to XYZ, like, we have such a powerful stage, like every post, every podcast episode, every thing you create has such a world of opportunity attached to it and like could really be the thing that like, helps, and changes and does whatever we just did, and like. And even if it's a needle at a time, it's like the compounding effects of this work is incredible. I mean, it's just like, I've been at this for a year. And you know, I can say that it's been a very slow burn, but at the same time, like the, the consistency and being like this tapped into myself, and the work I'm putting out and being able to make these connections has, you know, I can feel like, oh, you know, look at the numbers and think one thing, but then if I really pull myself up and look back and understand like the body of work, and the connections and the discoveries and the transformations I've gone through, it's it's really incredible. So I just want to thank you for being being a stand for this as well. And like creating the work that you do and connecting with all the incredible artists, I'm honored to be a part of your show. Oh, thank you. That's so kind of you to say and yeah, likewise, yeah. I don't know, I just, I feel like I feel the same way. We're all collectively contributing, contributing to a movement, I feel like things are really happening. And this is the time we'll look back on this time and go, you know, this was a significant period of our lives and, you know, society, Western society, in generals life, and we're a part of it, I feel like, you know, and I think that's the thing, because, perhaps previously, because of the work, the way the world was set up, there wasn't the internet or whatever, when someone did something, it was a big deal. Now, because we've all collectively got this access to, you know, the internet, we can do podcasts, we can do blogs, all this stuff, because there are so many people doing it. The reach might not be as broad. But that's the difference. There are so many people doing it now. You know, I feel like, you know, there's momentum in this and I just got goose bumps. If I get like, we are a ship, we are the ship, like you know, a thing isn't a thing until it's a thing. And then enough people I was just listening to. I think he's so cool. His name is Jeff Goins. He's a writer, and he has a podcast called he creator. And he was just talking about how you know, a thing isn't even a thing until someone comes up with it. And it's really weird at first because it's not an a thing. And then enough people believe it, and all of a sudden, that's the norm. And then, you know, and it's like, it's so true. And that's what, you know, all of these norms that we're combating through, like pulling the veil off, you know, that we are not separate from that we are we are doing the work on the ground floor of that. And I think it's so important. It's so incredible. And also, you know, even though it definitely is a, you know, the big pond a bunch, a little fish type of thing in some way, you know, leaning into who we truly are and like own the more we own ourselves, the more powerful we can be for whoever does find us and all of a sudden binge, like, oh my gosh, you were the vehicle that I needed this to come through, like kids. We've all been there where we hear something, and we know that we've heard that same sentiment a bajillion times before but there was something about the way this person said it in this moment that just was the thing you needed and unlocked you and you can never tell we know when that's going to happen but also there probably are no accidents right so yeah. I think you know, this divine timing like when you're ready for this message like yeah, I could tell you a million examples of Napoleon but you know, so many examples of you know, you're saying So you hear this and then one time you hear it, it's might not be delivered any differently, but it sticks in your right eye for you. Exactly. It's hilarious isn't it thank you so much for coming on Bianca. It just has been a really lovely conversation. I've just loved it so much. Thank you. And good luck with the rest of your endeavors doing your podcast and and yeah, just keep doing it. Because it's so good. So thank you so much, and I would be so honored and cannot wait to have you have you as a guest on my show as well. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom.

Katie Callahan US singer, songwriter + artist S2 Ep73 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore Maryland, and a mum of 2. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was 6 and grew up there until finishing her first year of College before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of 7 children and comes from a very musical family, she grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started song writing in high school. Her music is very lyric based, in the Americana, folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. She released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get It Right and her latest release The Water Comes Back from 2021, recorded in Nashville at Gray Matters Studio by Matthew Odmark from the band Jars of Clay, Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social medial followers, with them suggesting the theme for each song. Katie is also a visual artist, she studied painting at College it was her minor along with Theatre Performance. She paints primarily in oils and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our song writing styles, explore the difference between expressing ideas with words as compared to painting and discuss being able to ask for what you want. ***This episode contains mentions of pregnancy loss*** Katie's website Podcast - instagram / website If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here. Katie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast that's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your company. My guest today is Katie Callahan, a singer, songwriter and visual artist from Baltimore, Maryland in the United States, and she's a mom of two. Katie moved to Hawaii when she was six and she grew up there, living there until she finished her first year of college before her family relocated to mainland USA. Katie is one of seven children and comes from a very musical family. She grew up playing and singing in the evangelical church worship band. She plays acoustic guitar and started songwriting in high school. Her music is very lyric based in the Americana Folk and spirit style, and she processes a lot through her music. Katie released her first album of original music in 2019 called Get it right. Her most recent release from 2021 Is the water comes back, which was recorded in Nashville at gray matter studio by Matthew CodeMark. From the band jars of clay, which are Katie's musical heroes. Katie has also been writing a song a month with the assistance of her email and social media followers, with them suggesting a theme for each song. This is a lot of fun. Katie is also a visual artist. She studied painting at college. This was her minor along with theater performance. She paints primarily in oils, and does a lot of mixed media work. Today we compare our songwriting styles explore the difference between expressing ideas with words, as opposed to painting, and we discussed being able to ask for what you want. Today's episode contains discussions of pregnancy loss. If today's episode is triggering for you in any way, I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources online. I've compiled a helpful list of international resources which can be found on my podcast landing page, Alison newman.net/podcast. Katie's music appears throughout today's episode with permission and via my newly acquired APRA M costs online mini License Agreement, which means I can pretty much play whatever I want from now on. But I really hope you enjoyed today's episode we the moms thank you so much for coming on. Katie, it is so lovely to meet you. And to welcome you to the podcast today. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's a pleasure to heavy. And like I was saying before, I've been meaning to ask you for so long to come on. Because I've been following you for ages on Instagram. And I really love what you do and your energy and just, you know, everything you do. It's really cool. So thank you for coming on. Thanks. I'm really I'm really excited to be here. Oh, you know, people don't ask me a lot of questions. I spend a lot of time with small people. They're more instructional, you know? Oh, yes. It's more of a demand than a question. Yeah. You weren't giving me some food? Yeah. Yeah. So we're about to you in America. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. So it's like it's just an hour about an hour from DC. Yeah, I had. I had someone on from Maryland the other day. And I made the mistake of saying Maryland instead of Mary. I mean, let's be honest. That's that's that's the history that's intended when they named this place. Yep. It was deeply Catholic in the beginning. Surprise. So are you is Baltimore on the Chesapeake Bay? Is that the either disowned or is it knee? The it's right, it's right near there. Yeah, so we're on that the harbor but it connects and feeds into the Chesapeake. So we're like if I drive for like 45 minutes, basically here, you're at the Chesapeake and there's a whole network of, you know, cities and things like that down on the Eastern Shore, which I think is where your guest is from. Because I did listen to that one. Yeah. When I saw that she was from Maryland. I was like, No way. What are the odds? You're gonna double dip and Maryland? In the span of a month or so? Yeah. Like, yeah, not even, like a couple of weeks. That is really cool. That's really cool. done that before. Like, have people from this apartment Australia, obviously, there's a lot of people. I've had a lot of Melbourne people on. But yeah, that's cool. So have you always lived there? And not always lived here? No, I came for college. But I was I my dad is, was in the American military. He's in the army. He's a pediatrician. And so I was we moved a bunch of places. But then when I was six, we moved to Hawaii. And I lived there through all of my school years through the first year of college. And that summer, then we they sort of relocated to this part of the world and I this is where I've been ever since. That's a bit of a different climate change going from one would wonder why one would do that. And I wonder every winter I feel the same way like, oh, no, it's happening again. So I didn't get pretty cold there. Were you you know, honestly, I'm complaining it's it's pretty moderate here. It's no it's probably but only in like January February, it stays in like the low 40s High 30s through most of the winter, it's cold for me. I'm cold all the time. But um, but it's really it's really not. We don't get like, you know, not like a further north they get feet of snow and things like we don't, every now and again, that will happen and everyone will panic, but I'm just gonna live. What? Because we talk in Celsius over here. And I want to find out what 30 and 40 Oh, well, that's four degrees. That's freezing. That's really validated. I think he's minus one. Like yeah, no, that's cold. Yeah, like when we we don't get snow like nowhere in Australia that on on normal land. Normally. Not on a mountain. Snow unless we're up high. And like that's cold like out I wind when like today it's you wouldn't be able to tell from what I'm wearing. I've got a massive big turtle neck roll jumper on it's meant to be spring almost summer here. And it's I don't know, maybe 14 And that's cold. Yeah, so like, Yeah, well, hang on. What's that in yours? That won't mean anything to you. I was just I just average what you said between the two. So I figured it's it's it's it's 57 I wouldn't be wearing a jumper jumper or Sweater Jacket. I would be I would be cold. I would be cold. That's kind of what today was outside too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's that transitional getting between between the things I find it to be this spring time, and impossible. Give so you are a musician, and also a painter as well. I shouldn't forget that. Let's talk music first. How did you first get into music and playing instruments? Oh, well, we are I come from a pretty musical family. I am one of seven kids. Somebody at one time was talking to me and they were like so when you weren't cosplaying the Partridge Family, like what were you doing with your life. But that was kind of what our growing up was. We all grew up. My family is pretty religious. And so we all played in like the church worship band. And that's kind of where we all learned how to play instruments and music. And for me singing was my primary thing. When my older brothers went to college, they took with them their accompaniment skills and so I had to learn how to you know, play something to keep me company. So I learned how to play acoustic guitar. And yeah, and then I guess Yeah, that's so we all have played music together for gosh, as long as I can remember. And I just kind of kept doing it. My brothers both still play. And my sisters they'll still saying but less formally. And or just have like releases and I just sort of took the took the ball and ran and kept doing it. Yeah, and I really fell in love with songwriting. When I realized it was like a thing that you could do you know what I mean? I was like, Wait, hold on, like, you can take a whole idea and makeup, like it's brand new thing out of it. And I just, I loved it. And so I started, you know, in high school and, and, and just kind of never, never stopped. Never stopped doing it. With you know, pauses here and there for various reasons. But yeah. Oh, that's great. So you play. Do you play? Sorry, I've just been distracted by a cat. I can't We can't if it's my cat or someone else's cat. So I'll stop now. Sorry. That was sorry, Katie. So your mind is up here too. I expected to interrupt. Like having chats with people's pets when they want to. So you play guitar? Do you play piano as well? Do you play lots of different instruments? I don't, I'm not a multi instrumentalist. We learned how to play Google Play. And, you know, my whole a public school education. Because you learn to do that along with a recorder. Exactly. So so but that is pretty much the extent of my instrument playing and I really have focused on on voice and on singing. I've had on enough teachers throughout since I was like, 12. But ya know, I've always focused on singing and always felt a little ashamed of that. I suppose a little embarrassed, but that was like, the only thing you know, only thing that I do. But you know, every now and again, it occurs to me that like, I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of that being my primary instrument and I love it. I really love its relationship to my body and I love Yeah, yeah. So like I you know, I'm I'm in that way I play I play acoustic guitar in a in a medium minus way. And I'm a singer. That's it. That's it, I am. Now there's no shame in that, because I'm the same. I cannot play. I can play the piano just to bash out chords to work out, like songs in there. But I can't play anything in public, like well enough to play in front of people I just seen. And I shouldn't say just sing because we're not just singers. Because that's pretty awesome. But yeah, that's Yeah, I know. I'm like, Yeah, I think so there. I mean, like, the freedom to like when you're in front of somebody in a crowd, and like, it's only the singing Oh, my God, the freedom of that. Because like, you know, when you're just like, trying, it's sort of this like grinding out like, I have to get it right. And I have to do the right thing. And the time I'm thinking about is what my you know, like, where my my fingers are in the fretboard and not really, you know, coming into the song The way that I feel like it could be but yeah, that's a that's a total gift. When you get to do that. It's pretty special. I think. Yeah, that's something people forget is like, singing in itself is, is it? Like you said, it's a whole it's a whole body experience? Oh, my God, it's yeah, you know, and then with your performing, like, the connection, and the emotion and everything, like, it's not literally just a thing coming out your mouth, you know, it's, it's everything I've just loved, that I've loved. I just recently started lessons again. And with somebody that I studied with, like, eight years ago, when I was like pregnant with my oldest, and this last time I saw him and then you know, seeing him again, it was just it was a wild experience, just the difference of time. But also the reminder of just all the all the parts of your how your voice is really just trying to put you in your body. Like how singing is just really about living in your body feeling what your body needs at any given point. And reminding it that it can I just like I for you just forget, you just forget what it's like to to like to learn that again. And it's been both, like really humbling, because I forgot. Forgot all of it. And, and I've been doing it, you know, I don't want to say I'm doing it wrong. But like there have been so many times where I've struggled where like if I just remembered that would have been so helpful, you know? Yeah. Now is the series so much that goes into it. And I think that yeah, it's important to say that, that we're not just saying there's so much going on How would you describe your songwriting style? Songwriting style? Um, I would say, I'm a I'm a folk singer, primarily. I tell a lot of stories with songs, I process a lot of things through song. And so like Americana Folk, that kind of spirit is definitely where I tend to land. Pretty lyric heavy. Like that's really my focus agreement on singer birth. And so what the singers is the most important part for me, we just find it because my my spouse says he was a drummer a long time. And so like, sometimes I'll be listening to a song. And like, not even, I mean, like, oh, I hated that line. He's like, What line? He's listening to everything else at the song. And he's not even thinking about, like, what the song is actually saying. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What about big differences? But I'd say I'm a folk singer, who writes primarily folk songs, and sort of the way they're produced feels a little bit irrelevant to me. That's the heart of it. Yeah, yep. And I've listened to your music. Thank you for sharing your music with the world because you have a divine gift and your voice. You've got such a beautiful voice. It's like, I can't even describe it's like, it's would you say you're an alto? You're like, yeah, deeper yet. But yet so rich? Yeah, I really, really like your voice. Yeah. Sorry. Thank you. It doesn't matter what I say about it. It you have a beautiful? I appreciate it. No, keep saying. No, yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate you listening all that I appreciate it. It's great. It's definitely a labor of love. Yeah. And you also through your Instagram, you share your journey of songwriting each month with a different theme that you put the call out for you, your followers to get involved in. Tell us a bit more about that. Yeah, oh, my project, this has been, I decided that, at the beginning of this year, I thought to myself, you know, I am one of those artists who could get really caught up in the preciousness of when and how I write a thing or make a thing like, well, I have to have this much time. And these must be the conditions and this must be the place. And I didn't want I didn't want those limitations. I wanted to think about songwriting. You know, in addition to the those magic moments, which I believe are very true and real. In addition to those magic moments, I wanted to be able to work at songwriting, like like a craft, like how is what is the practice of writing a song. And I don't know why I did this. But I asked everyone on Instagram to give me their suggestions. For what what would be good song topics. And some people took it seriously, and gave me very serious topics. And some people wrote like spaghetti and stuff like that. So we'll see when I put them I put that every year I put them on this little box and I shake it up every month and I pick one out and I yeah, I build a song around it at the top of every month and I'm I'm to be honest, like a very terrible at the production part of the recording part. Isn't that making If so, but I made it like I want to be able to put out these demos. They're just demos I can I release perfectionism enough to release these very imperfect versions of songs that maybe aren't all the way work through or, you know, maybe weren't my idea, can I can I release these things in in both the spirit of like, good fun, but also honesty and sort of a vulnerability in them. But it's been like a very challenging practice, but also like a really, I don't know, like an interesting sort of study, you know? Because we've had some weird ones. What, what do you reckon is the weirdest one that you've had? 111 once was unicorns and glitter. That was a weird one. I didn't know how we were gonna get around that one. We had dating apps that was I remember that was I've never done any of that. But the people feeling like the, like the gift of people sharing their experiences for that one was like, like flooring, like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. This is what your life is right now. That was really good on I don't know what else we had. We've had What if today was your last day? That was really intense. We've had But the most interesting thing is sort of like taking the idea that I can see like, I can sort of, like feel where the person was coming from, like, the very first month was ease, you know, and so like, the idea is coming to this with like a spirit of like, I'm not going to force this, I'm not going to stress about it. And then realizing sort of just like sizing out, like, what is this? What does this actually feel like? And how does it work within me? So like, with ease, like others, and nothing, there is not an easy boat. I'm gonna overthink this so hard. So like with, like, how to lean into both, but like the reality of my experience while dealing with these, you know, themes that maybe I would not have picked voluntarily has been I don't know, it's really interesting. It's really interesting and fun, and I'm not gonna do it again. I'm not gonna lie, but um talking to Mormons, but it has been a really good exercise, I think. Yeah, like, honestly, I think it's incredibly challenging. To do that, to say, I'm gonna write a song about a thing that means absolutely nothing to me, like that you can't resonate with that you can't draw on experience, because I'm the same as you. When I write, it's got to be something that I feel and it's got to be something that's, you know, I've experienced or I can relate to, I find it. I mean, I have written a few songs for like, electronic dance music, where it's, it's literally just lyrics because I imagined myself on the dance floor, and it's all very frivolous. And it doesn't, it's not the time for big, deep and meaningful, you know, my real proper writing. Yeah, it's got to have some depth, it's got to have some, some background to it. It can't just be blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that would be really hard to do so good for you for challenging yourself in that way. Again, I'm not sure it was wise. But it has I you know, what I did get, I got a song out of it for a new project I'm recording and so you know, if all else goes to pot, at least I have that. And I, you know, that makes me feel proud that like, oh, I can work sort of in a pressured situation and create something that I'm proud of. And yeah, no, I think the pressure like that time constraint on yourself, too. Yeah. I feel very uncomfortable with with pressure. I deliberately put pressure on myself is yeah, I'm not gonna do it again. It's been great. Well, it's lasted but yeah, not not returning to that. Way is the sign of the seed. He is why is this If so and says it should find his or Wayne Blasi, be this spring time, and even positive. Now, I want to mention to you it's been 12 months since you released your album, which is called the water comes back. Yeah. So you share that share with us about the experience? Where did you record that album? Yeah, the water comes back is it's the second full length album I've done and it is, you know, it was such a crazy, it was a crazy thing I grew up, like I said, it's sort of playing church music and in the church, and my favorite, you know, my favorite bands are all Christian bands and things like that. And one of them was called jars of clay. And they, you know, there were bands that I really was very, they felt like to me, I don't know how to say it, they didn't ever shy away from all the big feelings. And a lot of Christian music does a lot of you know, whatever, Christian quote unquote Christian music does not deal with hard or difficult things. And they have felt like there was a lot of permission in their music and in their songwriting style because it wasn't particularly genre, you know, sort of, and I just and they're very lyric heavy and told a lot of stories, and I always loved them, even as I moved out of out of church music and out of that world. I've always really appreciated them and after, you know, a project in a friend's basement over three, you know, over three years kind of a thing, like just trying to get myself going again, because it's been a really long time. Since I've been anything like that. I dropped them online at their info at you know, their website, email address, just being like, hey, hey, thanks for everything you've done for me. And, you know, a little bit of shade where like, I just did this project and you know, I wouldn't have ever written songs have not been for you guys bah bah bah lovey laughs and to my violent amazement, they responded, I got a response from Charlie who played the keyboard in the band. And, you know, in passing was like, you know, if you ever want to record let let us know. And about two months later, I realized I had sort of a stash of songs. And I wrote back, I was like, a thriller. Oh, he put me in Matthew, Mark, and he, he now runs a studio that they all own together, so. So they have a studio, it's in Nashville, and they recorded in it for the last few albums. And while they've all sort of, like, they only come together once a year to do like this Christmas concert, that's a benefit from a charity that they created, called Blood water mission. They don't you know, in the meantime, they use this space to do you know, production for people like me, you know, for local artists and strangers from Baltimore, who happened to send emails. But what was nuts about it was like, I emailed them, it had to be, it was like, you know, January, maybe February of 2020. And so we had our initial conversations, and then our world shut down over here, you know, all the way and so not only then were these wonderful people willing to chat with me about doing this future project. They also then we did like, Zoom co writes with Matthew and Mark and Heseltine, who is the one of the singers from from Jaws of Life in the band. And a guy named Luke Johnson who, who's in a different band at anyway, so I was able to do these things that just like were unfathomable to me over zoom in, you know, like, while the world is all the way shut down, and, and I got to go, I flew down there in January 2021. You know, everybody very scared of everything and masked and all that stuff. And but we were able to record the whole thing in a in sort of a, a whirlwind two weeks, yet. Yeah. And it was, it was wild. It was amazing. It was, you know, tense, but it was, it was really wonderful. And I'm so I'm just so grateful. So grateful. That is an awesome story. I love that. It's like, did you when you were writing to them? Did you think oh, I shouldn't be doing this? You know, where there? Was there any doubt that you were going to write that initial email? And then 100% I probably wrote it and rewrote it, you know, like, 60 times, and then I spent the next whatever how many days being like, why would you ever send that email to those people? That was so ridiculous. You know, and you think everything you do is so ridiculous until there's some evidence that like, No, it wasn't. Actually it was fine. Yeah, 100% definitely retraced this, this little digital steps a lot, a lot of times. That is just such a wonderful story. I love that. Yeah. Good Anya. And there's some lovely photos, I'm guessing that some of the photos you've sent me from that recording session. The actually that's from the recording session I just did in August. So I went back down and work with them again, I work with them again, for a new project that'll come probably April of this coming year. So we're just sort of at the on the cusp, you know, that big wave that comes where you're about to do like all the publicity and all that stuff and all the prep that goes into it. So I'm sort of like a about to be in the deep end but I'm not quite there. But yeah, I recorded a new project down there which was a lot more relaxed a little less COVID II and less less for that and just a real yeah a real delight to be back down and and there's something about building relationships with people that way and the trust that you have that that makes you know, rounds two and three and four or whatever so much so much more I don't know life giving you doubt yourself so much less Yeah, and yeah, and there's just there's so much to gain from I think for me anyway for building those relationships over time. Hmm No well done. It sounds like yeah, it's gonna be a lasting sort of connection that you've created that's really exciting. For sure, yeah. Yeah, love it there's no way to shame is refusing. Want to talk about your art as well that you're a painter Yeah, tell us all about that. Oh, man, that's a harder one to get into. You know, that is one of the ones that I studied painting in school in college. It was my minor, along with theater performance. But a funny degree I have, but it is, it's something I certainly love. And I paint primarily in oils. I do a lot of mixed media work, and things like that. Yeah, it's definitely one of those things that's fallen to the wayside a lot more, especially as I've been, especially, I guess, in this phase of my life, as in this motherhood phase. It is. It's, you know, it's messy, and it takes up time and space in ways that other art forms don't. Yeah. Man, this is, this is like, it's like, it's just, it's so it's not effortless. That's not what I'm trying to say. But it comes. So naturally, it's, it's so much like, you know, like an inhale and exhale. And it's just like, I love it so much. I love it so much. And that was when I was like, oh, man, this is this, I missed this, you know, I really miss this and the ideas that move differently, you know, in paint than they do with words or, or even with music, you know? And, yeah, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's interesting. Because I've, recently, because of this podcast, and the people I've met, I've sort of gotten into trying painting, which, and I really enjoy it, and I just mess around, there's no structure with mine. And it is so different, isn't it, like, the way that you can express yourself? And an artist said to me, they can't imagine writing music or, you know, things with words. And I, I've struggle with the other side of it to get my point across without words. So it's like, you know, what, I mean? Like, how do you sit down? Sort of expression of your creativity? Oh, that's such a good question. I think, I think that I don't know, I'm trying to think now at the I was much better as a student at, at being willing to let the image be the message. And whatever somebody got from it, Soviet or like, you know, the the brevity of the title, letting that be the whole message, or like, the spark that made somebody curious about something else that made them maybe look twice at an image where they would not have looked twice before. Yeah, and like, you know, I've I, in my, one way that I've gotten back into visual art, in the last few years is doing these little, these little haiku squares, or four by four squares that I, you know, sort of abstractly paint and then sort of build on with whatever I have around, you know, the, the glue or varnish or like little things that I just have sitting around, and I write a haiku, you know, a 575. And I'll build sort of the image around around that. And I have these little tiny, these little tiny, you know, squares that I have that have, it's like art, but it's also words, and I wonder now just just like listening to that, I wonder if that is, like an element of me not willing to let the image be itself anymore. Because I mean, so far to songwriting, though, like, like, I can't, maybe I don't trust, you know, that the image is enough. Yeah. Or trust the view, even the consumer to take, you know, to take what they will take and, you know, and if it's different than I intend, so be it, you know, that's a Yeah, it's a real exercise. Interesting. That's, that's a really interesting idea that I hadn't even considered before. Yeah, cuz my son, my little boy, who's seven, he asked me, we had this conversation about how can you tell what the painting is about? And I said, it's really up to the person looking at it to work out how they want to interpret it. And then I thought to myself, that's sort of, I mean, that's fine. But then, are they missing the point? Are they missing what the artist wants them to say? Or is that okay, is that part of the whole thing? You know, what I mean, like, and I know, even in songwriting, unless you're extremely explicit with your Lyric like this, this this, this is like, it's no other way you could, you know, understand. You think there's songs that have been written about really different things to what they come across. So it's happening everywhere all the time. Exactly. Right. Right. And to some extent, there are lots of artists that prefer that right. Like there are lots of artists who are like, please don't understand exactly what I'm saying. Yeah, Please be misled. Like that's like, this is a silly example. But that song, you know, closing time closing time then the song is about his his kids being born. Not about a bar closing, you know, even though so so it's like a. It's like I'm gonna write this. I know you're gonna I know you're not gonna get exactly what I'm saying. That's gonna Delight me. That's part of the thing. By it. Yeah, exactly. Right. I'm definitely somebody who wants to be understood. I'm not sure. Are you familiar with the Enneagram? I don't know how big the Enneagram is over there. But I am not but I might not. It might be bigger than what I think it is. Because I don't know everything. You know what I mean? How do you spell it? E N N? D A gra M, I think and the growl? Yes. Yep. Oh, yeah. You mean? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So they're, you know, they're different types. And every type has a distinct like, desire and a distinct fear and whatever. And like the the large picture is, like, everybody's a little bit of everything. But everybody also has like, their own distinct little number. And like this is, for me, it's just it's been useful map specifically relationally just trying to like get a lot of empathy both for myself and others. But but my type is, is always wants to be understood, longs to be understood, but also wants to be very elusive. So it's exactly the tension that you're talking about. Like, it's like, I want you to get it but don't get it. Done. Tom looks so close, but pleased that he's challenged that one isn't that smelly? I mean, it sounds silly. But it but it is it's like it's like, I don't want to be obvious, but also please understand exactly what I'm saying. And if you don't, I'll be devastated for weeks. That's fine. I'm gonna do that I've never done like, I did, like, you know, the personality, like whether you're high or a J or I don't know. So yeah, that's Myers Briggs. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah, but this one, I'm gonna have a crack at that one. That's really, I must say, I like I want this. I think this is why I struggle with just straight out visual art because I want people to understand what I'm saying. Because it's like, why would I do this is me, why would I do it? Unless my point comes across? I don't know that. That's that's just me. I have a very my sisters listening to this. She'll agree I have a very intense need to control things. The way I want them to read? Yeah, yeah, I'm getting better as I get older, to let go of control. And perfectionism, but it's truly work. It's truly work. It's truly work. And, and it takes a like, you know, perfectionism sounds cute, you know, you can be like, a perfectionist, but it's really deeply damaging. And, and, and it can really lead to a lot of self judgment and others judgment and it you know, it doesn't really serve it doesn't really serve and like I you know, I don't think I even realized that I was a very grown up person, like, Oh, this is actually not a compliment. No, this is actually hindering you quite a bit in your journey. So, yeah, yeah, I think age probably has a lot to do with that like aging perspective. And it's like that yeah, the best way I can describe my self is in this little anecdote from when I was five and I was singing at our school concert and the teacher was holding the microphone for me and I took a put my hand on it and moved it closer because she wasn't holding it in the right spot. And that's I sort of say that so you need to know and that same conclusion Oh, I love that so much. That's a great my five year old up here with someone take my well on that segues beautifully into your children, can you share how many children you have? You don't have seven days? Oh my God, no, no one should have seven now. Anybody who wants me to that seven, that's fine. A lot of personnel Ladies I have two I just have two kids, two daughters one is going to be nine and the other is five, five and a half. Yeah, that's nice. Yeah, they're really fun, really precocious, super smart. Much more confident than I ever was certainly teach me things every day. are, you know, they are deeply Creative Kids, which is really fun for me to bear witness to because they're creative in different ways. And louder than I wish I was a kid. So, so it's like, they're creative. And also, like, demonstrative ly. So versus like, I was always a little bit ashamed. You know, for most of my life just kind of hid. I literally turned our closet. We had like a closet, where we would like would dump our backpacks at the end of the day. And I it was not big and I like that. I don't remember how it happened but there was a desk in it and I just like adapted that was like my little space do my little thing you know? Katie in a closet that's good. And that's what I was like at the chats all you need to know Oh, that's hilarious. I can just visualize that this little person sitting in the closet. Oh, man. Oh, so your girl sat in classes? They're they're doing their thing out in the world. Yeah, yeah, definitely doing their thing out in the world. And I love that honestly, they are real teachers for me. Um, and you know, and that showing me things that I I don't want to teach them you know, they're doing things that I wish I had learned as a kid versus like doing something that I you know should undo or you know, controlling them which is really a gift and when I can actually gain the perspective to see that it really is a gift for sure. Yeah, it's interesting like my is that your cat? Did your cat is you okay all right, yeah. I suppose it is a tight end I can't let my cats in here because they both got bills on their collars. So one day I was in here recording like actually properly recording vocals and I didn't realize the cat was in here next minutes again was a really good time. Oh, the nerve. I know you know I so I record this is my this is the third floor of our house. But it's like a you know, it was an attic. So it's you know to go. Yeah, let's shape it's not insulated. And so I have like a little recording like area but it's not it's not particularly sound proofed at all. And his little cat areas back behind it and so almost every single time I'm like doing a quick recording he's like is lit right now. Why? No? Every time you take scratch scratch scratch scratch was like yesterday I was recording a podcast How about seven in the morning? I don't usually do them that early but it's the time it was a Sunday afternoon in Los Angeles. And the wall that is right in front of like literally this far in front of where I'm sitting next on to our ensuite so my husband's in there having a shower and the fans on and then I never knew started squealing and I'm just like oh my god I'm trying to smile and just think this did not come through I didn't I don't know how it didn't it was a miracle sound engineering was amazing. Maybe this will stick and then I give it credit for I don't know it's like a one way sound only you can hear it to feel sensitive about it. Nobody else can hear but one like my window to my neighbor's is right here and every now and then the next door neighbor's dog will start up and he's actually if you listen really closely in because I just use the same introduction each time you can hear him man I'm getting I'm getting so many So, in terms of being a mum and having your daughters, how did that sort of fit in amongst your use of music? Were you able to you were recording or doing things or writing, you know, as they were children, babies, you know, that kind of stuff? That's it? Yeah, that's a great question. I, I always a little bit, I'm a little bit embarrassed when this question comes up, getting lost with it. I, so my life is, I mean, though, the rhythm of my life ended up being a little bit unorthodox, in that I was married very young, and divorced, very young. And, and then sort of married younger, to a much older, and in the course of that period of life, I think I just sort of fell, folded myself into a shape that fit the life he already had. So, you know, I moved into his home, and all my paintings, you know, I shoved them into closets, and I, you know, I kind of like tried to make my stuff as an invasive as possible, you know, and then I got pregnant within, you know, a month or two of us being married. And so not only was I newlywed in this new sort of life, I also had a baby. So suddenly, like, I felt like an invader, like, like, even the presence of my daughter, like, I had to be almost apologetic about everything about the way that we were changing my husband's life, from the sound in the house, you know, to, like, I was exclusively feeding her to, you know, like, I didn't, I didn't want to push any thing, or be too much, or take up too much space in anybody's world. And that, you know, then I, we had our second daughter three and a half years later, and, you know, it's kind of more of the same, it was a little bit, I'd say, a little bit more comfortable. And the idea that, like, we lived in this house, and it should look, it should look like it, we should be comfortable, existing, you know, in our space with our things, and babies are messy and loud and disruptive, and like, this is what I how I should embrace this all. But like, you know, throughout, throughout all of that I was I was playing music, in my, in the church setting. And, and that was about it, you know, I have had a few songs sort of that I written very periodically, over, I don't know, probably like 12 years. Before I really was like, I'm going to I'm going to record these I'm going to record the songs. And it was actually a friend from the church setting. Several of them that ended up helping me do that. But instrumentalists and also a producer. But, you know, all of that work is really, for the most part internal, and it's not super disruptive to a larger or larger home narrative. And I yeah, I think, um, you know, when I even when I left the church, which was sort of like a big deal, for me, that's a big, you know, it's a it's something that I had my whole life, and I was sort of trying, like, coming awake to things that I'd never really considered and, you know, ways in which I had been, that all these behaviors of hiding and of fitting a mold had been informed, you know, by that sort of education, spoken or unspoken from that environment. And, but all that work, again, was internal. So I think honestly, like, I'm, I don't think I would have tried again, I don't think that I would have started recording that first project, which again, was like 12 years of songs that recorded over three long years, you know, tediously, in someone's basement, I don't think that I would have even tried to do that had I not had my daughter's because through them was how I began to see and understand there was a self worth pursuing and saving. Not that I live for my daughters, but rather my daughters deserve to see me live. You know, and so that they can, they can do the same for themselves. Because the last thing I would want for these exuberant, you know, bright lights is for them to think that they should be folding themselves in any particular way, other than the way that they that they, you know, that they want to be. So, yeah, so that that's a very long winded way of saying I think I'm learning a lot even right now. That's pretty powerful. Isn't it like that you? You were so aware of the way you were living? The reflection that would have have on them? Like, that's massive. You know, a lot of people wouldn't even have that, you know? What's the word like a self actualization of actually, you know? That makes sense. Yeah. Massive. Its massive. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting, especially lately, a lot of this new music that I'm working with has a lot to do with. Like, the things that I, that I never learned how to do. And one of those things I've realized is is like to want, like, how to want and express want and desire and how to you know how to do that without and take that space up and be like, Yeah, I want to do that. I don't really particularly care if you don't want to do that, like I do, you know, how to, you know, how, what does that mean? You know, how can I differentiate my identity from the fact that maybe it doesn't agree with everybody else's want? And, you know, and like seeing in my oldest, like, say, I don't know, you choose? I don't know, you choose or, and like already seeing evidence that like there is there may be as evidence of, of, of my lack of ability to express one and teach one to them. So that like, you know, that sets a fire and you're like, Oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that for you. You know, I want to know exactly what you want. Even if you think it's gonna make me uncomfortable. I want to know exactly what you want. You know, that series? Yeah. And it's interesting. I had a conversation this morning, I recorded a podcast, we're talking a lot about people pleasing. And it's like, you feel like you have to say yes to everything, because you're going to offend someone. And that just reminded me, it's like, you're allowed to speak your mind, even if the other person is not gonna agree with you or not going to come along with that or whatever. You don't have to be worried about offending people. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because even if you do it, chances are it's, it's probably their problem. Yes, that'll be their thing to sort out. Yeah. And that was exactly what we said, too. It's like, it's, I think we get so caught up in that the response we get from someone, we think that it's all about us, just because it's directed at us. But really, it probably has nothing to do with us at all. But we're also egocentric beings that we think it's funny. Way to go listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I will send you money. While we're talking about the church, I want to mention if this is right to go there that you made an awesome post on your Instagram today. Rather than may describe would you like to take take the listeners to this and where it came from? And I guess the points you were making in it. So it's very intriguing. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I so I have a I have a song. It's called witches. It's on the water comes back. And in it, the whole point of the song, basically, I went on this retreat in Ojai with two really amazing women leaders, once named Lisa Ganga, she's a musician as well. And the other is Dr. Hillary McBride. And she's a psychologist, and she's an author. And she writes a lot about embodiment. And that sort of is what that whole retreat was about, like the retreat was about sort of, like unifying, you know, our insides and outsides, which sort of culturally we've been taught to separate. And so I went on this retreat actually went twice. And I met this, like, sort of incredible group of women, and you just are like, you know, feminine identifying folks. And what you what I took away from that was just sort of like how all of us, all of us there would probably on some level, you know, have been burned at the stake. If we were born $500 Earlier, foreign did nothing. But yeah, so So I wanted to write a song that sort of emphasized the sort of the plight of just being sort of anybody who existed outside of a hetero patriarchal norm, and in a reclamation kind of way. So that's what that song is about. And the second verse is about is about Eve. And the lines are, it's Eve, basically the premises if if, you know, the prevailing narrative is that Eve ruined Adam. But what if the real fault of Eve was not that she, you know, gave him the fruit to eat? but that she kept him from doing the work of finding the fruit himself. And that's really her curse. Now, it's just assumed that we're just going to always do the work as women, you know, or whatever. So anyway, in the post, I had a, there was a print of, of Eve and the snake and I recreated it with a T shirt, and I drew boobs on a t shirt, and then I had an apple and a little stuffed snake and I basically yeah, just sort of parodying the, you know, the whole the whole visual narrative of that story. I love that take on it. I love that because the thing I've always struggled with, like I went to, I was baptized Presbyterian, but I went to a Catholic school, because it was just the nearest one to our house, really. I always thought, Well, Adam had to eat that apple. She didn't force it down his throat. Like that's the thing. I always just kept thinking, but why I don't get this like, yeah, I don't know, I just really frustrated me. So I'm having my little fella who's seven. Digby. He's starting to ask questions about religion. And they were teaching them about, like Easter, he wanted to understand about, you know, the Easter story. And um, yeah, oh, here we go. Like, I always just say to him, Look, some people believe this. Other people believe that, like, it's up to you to decide what you want to believe in. And I'm not like, I don't eat meat. And I don't force that on anyone else. My family like religion, I'm not going to force that on anyone else. My politics, my politics, I do kind of, I don't want to say I force it on them, but I make them understand things. That, you know, it's up to everyone to decide what they want to do. And then I think that respect to allow people to make the choices either way, you know, to be to live in a society that we can allow, you know, differences and not allow that to divide us. So violently, I guess, it goes back to what we were saying about the wanting like, can I say what I want and be interested both in like my own sense of self and the other person's sense of self that like, I can separate those two things that what and separate myself from my ego, like, No, I am not the center of the universe, it does not, you know, my center doesn't have to be their center and and is still valid, even if it's only mine. And that's such a that's such a hard thing. Yeah, to learn. And it's so great that you're telling your kids that now you know what I mean? All the things they don't have to unlearn later. It's really important to a lot and I mean, I'm sure there's gonna be something there. So I'm sure probably politics, but but on politics, but I do want to make sure you've got your midterm elections coming up shortly. And I love the posts that you're sharing around that there was the the advertisement where the little girl, she's 11 or 12. And she comes up to the counter and says, Oh, I've heard you've got babies for adoption. And the lady says, Oh, you're too young to adopt. And she's like, but I'm old enough to have a baby. And it's like, this the ludicrous see, like, I I'm, I don't know, I find it really. I feel very compassionate. I feel a lot of love for you guys over there. What? What is going on? Feel for women over there particularly? Just got it makes me so cross? Yeah. And I can't imagine won't be like living living that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I am in an incredibly privileged position in that, like, that is not a choice at this point in my life that I'd have to make, you know, I, but, you know, I, I'll tell you, when I, when I lost a pregnancy was probably the most affirming experience of choice I've ever had, you know, because you realize how much you do want something. And, and, you know, and then if I want something this much, what's the equal and opposite, you know, the opposite might be somebody really doesn't and shouldn't have to, shouldn't have to, and shouldn't be able to make a choice, a choice for themselves and, you know, in our, in our culture is so rot and so racially fraught, and, and so much of our politics have to do with, with with class and with with money and who has it and who doesn't, and, and that, you know, this is just another example of how the people with the least who have been sort of forced to have the least over the course of our of our country's history are going to suffer the most again, you know, and this is just another example. Yeah, it's a really that's really tough and, you know, I live in a state that's primarily choice leaning, and sort of is almost never at risk for not not being that way. So again, that's an incredible privilege I have, you know, like, I don't really have to worry about my immediate surroundings and friends here, but there, there are plenty of other places not very far away that don't have that. Yeah, it's just I just, I find it really unfathomable, like, and I'm not throwing shade on America at all. I'm just saying it's like, it just seems to me like such a basic, right. I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And it's perpetuated by white men, you know, like this thing have been? I feel like we've gone from you know, Adam, Wyoming to another. It's just it's. And I don't know, it just makes me so mad. And anyway, if you're in America, and you can vote, go vote and make your vote count, please. Yeah, please. Now it's time to register like now that the registration is going to start closing. So yeah. So when is it? When's the actual day? Like, when can you do go on one day and vote over there? Is that what you can I just got my early ballot, if I wanted to use that I could send it in. I just got it this week. So I could send that in starting I think now and then it might be next week. I think it's the two weeks preceding because November. I want to say that A is that right? Yep. The eighth is our election day. Yeah. Rados is usually the first Tuesday. That's what it is this year. Yeah, a lot of you know, a lot of important motions on a lot of ballots. It's midterms, and so people don't vote as much. So if you're, you know, if you're American, please, please vote in this midterm election. It's really important. And you guys you like over here we have to vote like it's the law to vote. No. Yeah. Which has its own sort of ups and downs on either side. Yeah, but over there, you get to choose if you vote, which has its own ups and downs as well. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's so complicated, isn't it by like people being limited by whether or not they can vote with our felony laws and things like that. And also just like, just a fundamental discrimination, like ID laws, and there's all sorts there's all sorts, like, keep people from voting here too. So it's almost like people are afraid. Well, that's the reason for everything. Isn't it? Like the fear? Yeah. Yeah, that people vote really then. Where does power go? And the powers and the people that were supposed to be? Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to watch. So all the best I'll be looking out for you guys. I'm sorry, that sounded very flippant, ya know, that we will. Back to you as as a mother, you've talked about how your choices that you made how you're going to live your life, were really influenced by your children, do you find that your, your writing your music is heavily influenced by your children is think I don't particularly separate my identities out anymore? I think that I, you know, I struggled with this on my, my elbow and the water comes back because I felt like, you know, I have a song that is about that, that miscarriage experience. And I remember being like, I don't want people to dismiss this song. Because it's about you know, like, a woman's issue, or whatever. Because in my mind, it's not a woman's issue, you know, like, it's, that's just like, that's a consequence of being a person, you know, and I didn't make that baby myself. You know, I didn't do that alone. It's not just my it's not just my issue to deal with. And and, yeah, so I felt like a little bit of like a conflict, you know, in that, like, I'm gonna write about who I am and who I am includes being a woman and includes being a mother and includes like, acknowledging that I have those roles. And I'm not gonna like pretend like I don't because they're really important parts of my life. They dominate most of my time, you know? But those I feel like a lot of women have to pretend like it's not the case like when they're writing and and like maybe that's a choice. Maybe, maybe, you know, maybe, you know, either other songwriters are like, this is my way of reclaiming, you know, Have an individual identity as to right, Mr. Not right about them. Not like them. But because my, my, the way that I write and what I write about is so immediate, and often very responsive to where I am in my, you know, environment and circumstance, then they show up, they keep showing up those girls. And maybe not like overtly like, this is the song about my daughter. Because only country singers can get away with that, but but, ya know, they definitely show up. And again, I don't I don't think that I would write honestly, in a lot of ways and in the same ways had they have they? Had they not been a part of my life, even when the songs are not about them overtly. presence has informed, you know, that the song exists. Yeah, for me. Yeah, that makes sense. Makes sense? Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. Because you literally, you are a different person. Like, to the person that didn't have children? Yeah, yeah, for better or for worse. Yeah. So talking about their identity. When you became a mum? Did you have like a big profound shift that maybe you were losing a part of yourself? Or was it all like a positive? I'm gaining this part? Like, how did you sort of go through that experience? I heard, it's such a funny part of my life. It's such a funny part of life. Because I think that because of the way that my life had shifted so dramatically, and that small window of time, my husband and I almost didn't date, even, like, we just like loops are married. And so my daughter came so soon after, you know, I, so he was the mayor of, so he was my, he was my boss, I worked in a wine shop, and he was my boss. And so we got married, and obviously, I stopped working immediately. And my thought was, like, Oh, I'm gonna find a job, whatever. And then I got pregnant. And I was like, No, hire me. I believe, again. So I stayed home for those nine months, and I was pregnant. And I felt a little wayward for sure. Like, what am I doing? And I felt a lot of shame. Like, I have to be better busy myself with a lot of little projects, you know? So that it looks like I'm doing some things that nobody can look at me and say that I'm not basically, I was unaccustomed to not doing and so I decided, you know, so like, I wrote for a little column, a little wine column and a little, a little flat like website, and I, you know, made a lot of art. And I didn't nursing didn't think. But, you know, I think I was so relieved to have as big a project as a newborn. Yeah. Because, yeah, because when you have that, nobody can look at you and say, You're not doing enough. You know, you have a kid, and a little small person. And, and I adopted the most of the work. I think now looking back, probably because I could then be like, Look at look at it. And I'm going to be the best, you know, housewife, and I'm also going to have this newborn strapped to me as I do it, and what are you going to do, then? You know, you gotta tell me now I'm not doing enough and yeah, so I think it wasn't that motherhood made my identity. I you know, I hear a lot of women say this, that their identity felt challenged or taken from them by motherhood, I think that I adopted a whole persona role. So that I, so that I could basically like prove that I had value that there was worth in me via though those roles, you know, in that, and so simplistically, you know, but I do think that that is absolutely something that happened when I became a mom. Definitely, definitely. And it wasn't until, I don't know, I think having them I just, I just think it sort of reminded me that I am a creative being, who cannot not create and and that in order to do so, in order to encourage them to be creative beings, like I had to be willing to sort of lean into that part of who I was. And yeah, and imperfectly very imperfectly to the point where like, even now like now, now was when I'm like, Oh man, I'm being a bad mom right now because I am you know, I'm leaning very hard into this one direction or being very annoyed at them for not allowing me to this moment or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, that's again very long winded way of saying like, yes, motherhood changed, changed my identity. But I think I think in this case it is sort of was like I took it on as like a persona. And almost like an attempt to shape and identity before I really realized that, like, there was one already there that was worth pursuing. Yeah. Was that something knees sort of realized after the fact? Or you were of it at the time, do you think? I think I think it was, I think it was after the fact. I think in the moment, I was really desperate to prove how good I was, um, and how much I could contribute to this life that already existed, you know, with my, my, my, my husband's life, and, you know, this, like, big life that already existed that I sort of married into, and yeah, I think I think it took a long time for me to realize like, Oh, I didn't, I didn't feel willing to try. For a long time, I didn't feel willing to, like, lean back into me, like the identity of me, like who I am as a person, outside of, you know, this, this, this this life, and how that could be a contributing beneficial positive force as well. Hmm. Yeah. Yep. That's very powerful thing, isn't it? That's, like, really profound. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to be in the middle of, and I know you're catching me at like, such a weird moment in my, like, creative process and journey and stuff with this with this new project, because these new songs are all about. They're all about that they feel like they're holding me accountable. You know, they feel like they're demanding something of me that I never really walked all the way into. And I feel like in order to be like an honest person and honest artist, I have to do all this work, you know, to, in my own identity, and you know, shifting, challenging what I have told myself the story was my story here in this life and allowing the discomfort of, you know, having once and you know, making something uncomfortable for somebody else, maybe you're not fitting into their timeline or you know, all those things. Even you know, given the small little things, yeah, are stuff that I have to like work out now. On a day to day basis being like, this is uncomfortable. Also, it's good. To go through that to that yuckiness to get out the other side and have achieved something I suppose I've gotten through that. Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. And like right now, it's like, I don't know. Well, we get well, I get through it. I mean, I hope so. I hoped it's much easier to be fine all the time. You know, it's much easier to be like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. But like, what if I'm not and what if I like? Acknowledge it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What comes from that? You know? Yes. To take up that space and go actually no. So now what are you going to do? No, I'm not going to do that actually. Yeah, good on you. Be with you the subject or the concept of mum guilt is something that I enjoy talking to my guests about, and not because I like to say, hey, tell me all about your guilt. It's like, I just find it such a fascinating topic. And I love that I've had some guests on that have had to google it because they don't even know what it is. You know, it's a it's one of these things that everyone feels differently or doesn't feel at all, which is awesome. What's your take on the whole subject? Matter Okay, out? Well, I will it is 100% real and I don't know if that's again, because of my evangelical upbringing. Guilt just comes net. Feeling guilty about it. Everything as recently driving with my sister, and she's just like, We're just driving along and she looked at me, she's like, stop sakes, sorry, why do you keep saying sorry? It was like, Oh, it was, you know, I didn't just come so naturally. I think I think I spend a lot of time, you know, on on the internet, on Instagram and places like that trying to sort of like, feel out who my people are, like, what are what are the places that like, Where can I find the people who maybe would benefit from hearing my music. And that's where I spend a lot of time. And there, you know, in multitudes of accounts, you know, Mom accounts and things like this. And a lot of them are pretty fictionalized. And not real representations of what it is. And a lot of them are these like, you can go in extremes, right? I used to joke like I had when I had when I had a kid in preschool. All the parents are like, Yes, I'll show up for that 10am event, and I will bring treats and everything will be great. And I will make them myself and I'll knit Everyone is fine. And then I went to like, like, I took the same kid, you know, her her primary school. And all the parents were like, competitively like, disassociated. Like they're like, What? Forgot I even had a kid. When's the birthday? Oh, no. Goofy extremes of like, Oh, okay. So I think that I have felt guilty. I feel more guilty now about doing my work than I ever have. But it's because I'm doing more work than I ever have. Yeah. Yeah. And coincide. And like, conveniently for me, like my, my two children, this is the first two they're both in school for longer than like two hours at a time. So they're both gone for a large period of the day, for the most part, which gives me a little bit of space, which means that like in this in the time that they are home, I feel like I can participate more with them. Not perfectly certainly. Because a lot of the time I'm still trying to like eat go and a few hours, you know, just do this thing have to just look the other way for you know, three minutes more, or whatever. Yeah, but definitely, I'd say that I feel more guilty now about you know, oh, I didn't take my kids apple picking you like, that's a false thing I should have done with my children. Oh, yeah. Like, if there were these things that I shouldn't have done? Dang it. But like, I always joke like, I'm not a I'm not like a I'm not a I'm gonna participate or you don't like I don't? I'm not the volunteer, you know, at the magic show. Yes, Sydney covers. Exactly. I'm like, go ahead. And I, like I hate I'm not like an amusement park person. I don't, I don't, I don't, I want to sit at the back of the class, I can watch everybody else. You know, that's, that's where I am. And I sometimes just forget about, like, the very, you know, all the stuff, the stuff that kids get to do. And sometimes I feel really bad about that. Because I have, you know, relatives and friends who are really good at remembering that kind of stuff. But there are other times where I'm just so grateful that I've given my kids the space to be bored. And because they're so deeply creative, yeah, they're so creative with the way that they use their time their stuff. The you know, the, the imagination and their ability to be with themselves and not have to constantly be entertained by me or anyone you know. Yeah, yeah. I think I fluctuate between just feeling like, oh my god, I did you know, I'm failing them. I'm feeling them because we didn't go apple picking or whatever. And like, wow, I'm really glad that we spent the afternoon you know, upstairs learning how to use a hot glue gun or whatever. Whatever it might be. Yeah, that's CDs in it. Like, I don't know, it's just there was a lady I interviewed yesterday, who said her mom can't understand why this generation of mothers feels like we always have to be entertaining our children. It's like, like, going here doing this doing that doing that. And I feel like it's what you're saying is is awesome because when I remember my childhood, I don't remember. Like my obviously my parents were there doing doing doing doing doing doing doing things with them at my you know, we were when we're at home it was like, You go create your games or you go do what you want to do or you play your instrument. You just do things and my sister and I a two and a half years different so often, you know, together, you know fishing around doing something or You know, and that I feel like that's not, that's not what childhood is now, there's always going to be something that they're doing or something that they're given to entertain them. And, you know, devices are, obviously come to front of mind, but, and even in, I did some training at work the other day, I'm an early childhood educator and I work in a kindergarten. And we were asked to recall the words that described our childhood. And I remember, like, Freedom literally came to mind, because we were free to do what we wanted, decide what we wanted, we could go out and you know, ride the bikes around. So literal freedom, but the freedom to say, you know, let's just make up this game or, whereas now I feel like there's so much I don't want to say control. But it's, there's got to be things presented to kids all the time. So I love what you're doing with your kids. And it sounds like awesome. Yeah. Do you know what? Yeah, like, even just hearing you say that like that? I love that. You said that freedom is what came to mind. But I'm not sure that that's the word that I would that would come to mind. But like my, you know, my mom had four kids after me. Yeah, well, if there was not, there was no active like she couldn't possibly take us to an afternoon activity. You know what I mean? Unless we could very ourselves there or like, just stay after school longer or whatever. Like, it was not happening and. And yeah, the hours spent outside and like, with friends getting into trouble or whatever, or like, just being out being being around choosing to do spending hours with a painting, whatever, like, whatever it was bossing my sister's around and making them like, dress up and you know, little costumes and stuff. I like I live for. I loved it. And that's like, that's yeah, I just think there's like a lot to be gained from that. Now, of course, like, I feel a little conflicted, right, as somebody who wants to be performing too, because like, I wouldn't go to my show. I'd be like, Nope, I'm not going out. But maybe that's all the more reasons to start doing things like in house shows and whatnot. But, um, but yeah, no, I love I love that I love I love that freedom is the word that comes to mind. And I hope no, I hope that that's sort of hope that's what they feel a little bit of. Hope that is, I don't know, I don't know if that will be what they take away but. In terms of you being a creator, and a mother, is it important to you. And I put this in air quotes to be more than just a mom, because we're never just a mum, but to be doing something for yourself outside of your mothering role. I think it's become more important for me. This is a conflict, isn't it? I struggle sometimes because I realize I do a lot of things so that people can look at me and say, Wow, she's doing a lot of things. And like, I glean a lot of like, purpose and value from that, that I really wish I didn't, you know, like, I wish that I could you know, spend a day doing good, like, taking care of my kids, my house, whatever, you know, like just like Elon mom stuff. And at the end of the day, you know, when someone's like, what do you do today? Tell them what I did today. And feel good about it. Like I remember I was on a I was on one of those zoom co writes with somebody and they said, Tell me your story. This was a few years ago now. Tell me your story. Like what like what, you know, who are you whatever. And I said, Well, I'm a mom. I'm like, I couldn't think of another thing to say as though like, that was the only thing about me were saying but also like, I was under you know, I was undercutting it as I said it like just a mob. So, yeah, so I think I feel like that's a I do feel compelled to do more than quote just momming But I don't know that that's like for a very good reason. Because I think that momming is a really big. Making sure the next generation of people are not assholes is a really big responsibility that I wish more people undertook Yeah, no guarantees, I mean, but but, uh, you know, fingers crossed, things will work out me out there in the sunshine. Okay, when I can see, it's important to me that my kids see that I'm that I do things creatively and more than just see it, like, I want them to know it, I want them to I tell them, you know, like I, I don't shy away from being like, I need to do this thing now, you know, I can't look at your castle for the third time because I'm in the middle of writing something you're gonna have to wait, you know, and and showing them that I value what I'm doing as I'm doing it and, and I used to like really relish the fact that I could shove everything into the margins of my life because I you know, as a mom, that's kind of what you do. And I see no, of course, it's still I'm up here, you know, it's like 10 o'clock my time like it was we all that's what we do. But um, but also like, there's nothing wrong, you know, if it's 2pm and I have a lyric in my mind to say like, you have to do something else right now. I'm working and working on this thing or like, you know, if you didn't interrupt me six times, I could already be done. And then I would you would have me. So if you could just go do something else for a minute. Yeah, and I think it's become increasingly more important to me to articulate those kinds of things. Sometimes even just so I hear them, you know, like, it's important for me to be working yourself. This matters, you should you know, stop interrupting yourself. The laundry will get done, you know? Yeah. The bathroom, giggling whatever. Like, I know that you really want to get this, that that's looming over you. But also like, that will that will not change. But you might lose this line of thought, you know, like, you might lose this green light of hot. Exactly, the bathroom will stay dirty. So anyway. Yeah, that's the thing isn't like, as a creative person, you things will strike you at any time. There's no predictability about it whatsoever. It's like, you've got to get it down because it'll go and it won't come back. Yeah, I've had that happen so many times where I've thought to myself, just remember these just remember this dish. Remember this nap? Now, two seconds later? Yeah. Literally. I even I was saying to someone the other day that I at work, sometimes I'll be out in the yard with the kids and I'll get I'm very seem to pick up, like get ideas through rhythm. So I'll hear someone doing something so many times at work. I'd be petting babies to sleep and just get songs just from the rhythm of my party. So I have to have to put down so I'll run into the toilet. I like quickly. Record. That's good. I can relax now. I've got that damn. Oh my god, that feeling is so good. Yeah, nevermind the fact that I haven't named it and we'll have like a dozen more before I look at them again. But still, it's just a relief. And they're all like, like, somehow get an idea. Do you find with your writing process? Do you get a tune? Or do you get lyrics? Or like, how does it come to you? Yeah, yeah. I'm always interested in this because I don't know. Oftentimes, oftentimes, it'll be like a little phrase with a lyric. So like a little musical phrase with a lyric. And then like, where does that take me and then often, it'll be a melody that I kind of can can put words into, but it'll start usually with like, a little line of melody and lyric together. And then they'll move from there. But for me, like, like you said, you were saying earlier, it's it really helps when you're writing a song that you, like, comes from you, you don't even like I'm writing. This is what's on my mind. And so this is like, there's a folk, it's not like an amorphous, like, I love you, you know, like, and then we fell in love. You know, it's like something a lot more specific, or an idea that's a little more specific, that can kind of guide then you're like, whatever the narrative and and tone of the song evolves into. Yeah, you said for rhythm is that? Does it really become a melody does it become um, sometimes it becomes the melody. Sometimes it's just what I hear. And I make a melody over the top of, it's really random, like, I've had times where I've just been walking, and I think I've been conscious of my footsteps and I've just got stuff. Yeah, and yeah, padding, padding babies to sleep. I reckon I've written about four songs, putting babies to sleep, and then rushed out of the baby's room quickly whittling it down really quickly. Because you can have your phone with you there on the floor. So it's like, right, right, right, right. Yeah. That yeah, it's just and it Yeah, it just, I just find it so fascinating how it'll literally just, boom, it'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, it's not there. Like it just, it doesn't. It doesn't slowly creep in. It's like, bang, done. Like, it's just a masking. Yeah, it is such a neat process. And it's so different for every songwriter. Yeah, I've been following this guy named Derek Webb, he, he started this, the reason I followed him is because he started this project, he's like, I'm gonna write this album out loud, like, I'm gonna livestream my writing sessions. And I was like, can't wait to watch that happen. So I've been watching him, him write this album, and like, you know, watching the live, it's just, it's such a different, he's much more like intellectual than I am, and like, much more cerebral about the way that he does things. But he's like, you know, his, like, notes of all the lyric options, and then like, all the voice notes, and you listen through with them. And there are a lot of those, like, you know, things that go into a story or a vocal narrative. And, yeah, it's just been, it's been really interesting and inspirational, because you're like, oh, man, there's so many ways to go about this. And I don't have to be, you know, pigeonholed by what I've known, you know, in one way, like, maybe there's a lot of other ways too, which is cool. I've got to say, writing songs has been one of the few things that I've just completely trusted my gut on that I haven't, I felt like, Am I doing this, right? And I'm that sort of person. I think because of this perfectionism, or hence, everyone else do it. You know, like, I find them obviously, I find that interesting. But as a kid, like, I wrote a lot of poetry and stuff, and I don't think I ever, I didn't care what anyone else thought or need anyone else did. Or not, it's one of the few things in my life where I've really been able to say that, I just realized that just then. I love that. That's amazing. That's amazing. And that's, I mean, like, that's such a good word. Because you're like, because that's the whole thing with Sunrise. Like, you know, there are what I think the latest data, I just somebody just said this, I think it's something like 100,000 songs are uploaded, like a day, to Spotify, or something very depressing like that. But, you know, like, what makes you you like, what's the weirdest thing about you? Like, what's the most true, strange, specific thing about you that you can trust? And that's what's going to, you know, that's what makes it worth it. That's what makes it worth it, to have your voice and share it to be you. Like, you're not trying to be anybody else. And when you're not trying to be anybody else's, and when you new a new the most, you know, trustworthy really, you know, as an artist. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? That authenticity and Yeah, cuz I think you can get like that. That number is a scary number that like just made me shudder. Listening, God, has anyone ever gonna hear me? But it's like, I think sometimes. As an artist, you can be caught up in what? What is successful? What, what is being played on the radio? Or what is whatever your idea of success is? What is touring that space? And like, Oh, I'll try and do that. But it never works. Because it's not you. You know, it's just you can't fake yourself. I don't know. Like that's it. Take anything, don't take anything else from these podcasts. You can't fake yourself again. Remember that? So I don't know. It's just now anyway, that I've really gone. I mean, to me, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. It's online. Because it's just so authenticity piece. It's like you we were talking about, like, Do your kids show up in your music, do you? Well, if you're writing from an authentic place, and you happen to have kids probably one way or another, even if it's not explicitly, like I have kids, you're singing on some level, you know, for about because, you know, in this space between them, you know, whatever, it's gonna be informed by that because it's your life. That's the life that you're living. Yeah, absolutely. That's it. Yeah, I actually had another mom I had on the podcast, say, say very similar thing. She's like, this is the person I am. I'm a mother with children. So this is what comes out of me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Sorry. Not sorry. I'm not sorry. Actually. You're not sorry. No, you're not sorry. So your cars you can And. So on that, something I used to talk about a lot in the podcast and sort of waned a little bit lately, but I'm gonna bring it back up about this, the role of sort of capitalism, I guess, in creativity. And when you say, you know, there's that many new songs coming out of Spotify every day. And as an independent artist, it's like, how the hell will anyone hear me? But it's like, it's like, you don't create it, for other people to hear it. You create it, because this is your way of expressing yourself. Yeah. And you have to, yes, yes. And the value that you place on that creativity doesn't be come diminished, just because you're not earning a financial gain from that makes sense. Yeah. I, yeah. Gosh, boy, is that a tough one, because you, especially if you are coming from a place of being primarily a parent, and not a breadwinner, and not an income earner. You, I always feel like there's, like, I have to make an excuse for doing my work or spending money on my work. And, or for my work rather, and, and spending the time either time to, you know, because that's a that's a pretty precious resource as well. But I was at a kid's party once, and this mom was looking at her four kids running around. And she was talking about how she and her husband, you know, took turns or whatever, for to pursue their particular passions, and she's a librarian. So she wanted to really wanted this one job at a university in a position and as a tenured position, whatever, but she was going to school and she said, You know what, to get really what you want to do, when you want, if you're in this position, you just gotta bleed money. What she's like, Yeah, just bleed it, you know what I mean? Just bleed it for a while, because at least you'll be happy. And I was like, And on some level, I think I've carried that around with me like, this is, it's worth it. If it leads to that, because your kids are not going to be like, my mom was financially secure. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was happy. You know, my mom did what she loved. And I'm not sure why I'm talking about myself, like I'm giving a eulogy. But my, you know, like, they're saying, like, my, my mom does what she loves, my mom pursues her passions in ways that allow me to feel like I can as well. Even you know, like, whatever the cost, financially was, like, within reason, obviously, like, within reason. But for me, I find like, that was very validating, because I was like, Oh, I'm not the only one out here being like, sorry may get a rain for a lot of other people, because I just, you know, it costs a lot of money to record. And to, you know, and to get processed and to like to get things heard in any sort of ways, hard and expensive and a little bit required, you know, on a lot of levels. Um, you know, depending of course, on your circumstance, but I don't know, I guess that that I ran into her just a few weeks ago again, and I was like, you know, you told me she's like, Yeah, I got that dream job. And then I left it. But that's she's like putting out a better one, but I got a better one. Okay. Okay. At least there's that. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the ability to believe that, that art exists outside of money, you know, that. It's, it's a real Fu, isn't it? It's a real fuck you to capitalism to be like, I'm gonna continue making my art and loving it and doing it well. And sharing it, you know, best I can. However I can, regardless and outside of the system that doesn't want me in it. Because, like, some days, I feel like I can't crack this and some days. I'm like, why am I trying to crack? You know? Yeah, but that it gets tricky. Yeah, it's something I've always struggled with is that I'm spend more money on my art than what I make from it. And yeah, I sort of feel I find that really hard to justify sometimes, like, you know, I could have paid paid for the kids to do something, you know, like that money could have gone to something else. But then I think I need to do this, like I need to have my needs met in this way. And this is just how it manifests. And I'm married to a financial planner, which makes life really challenging. So it says, this many of your CDs, or you need to sell this thing or whatever. And I'm like, I'm not listening to that, because I can't be held to that, you know, I'm doing it because I love doing it. It's really, really stressful. To receive that math to be a really stressful message. For sure, it's very helpful in other ways, because I know we'll have enough money when we retire. But it can be challenging at times. And it's like, these are literally the two worlds colliding, you know? Listen, yeah, for sort of that. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. It's like, yeah, and I also find, I also get quite jaded by, you know, the commercial radio and the whole music industry. That is literally a money making machine. And I sort of think, I think, when I was younger, I had friends around me like, Oh, we've got to get a record deal. We've got to get signed and whatever. And it's like, I actually don't want anyone else to take ownership of anything that I've written or recorded, even if that means that I'm not going to be on whatever radio station because that's not who I am. And that might sound like I'm selling it, I'm making an excuse where I haven't gotten signed, you know what I mean? But like, you just look at the whole Miss Taylor Swift got herself in with that bloke that held all of her rights, and then sold them. And now she's had to go back and record everything. You just think like, even now, she probably truly doesn't own her work. You know? I don't I just I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. And that's I mean, and I think that in the artists, so this goes back, I think it goes back to just recording with those guys in Nashville, because I, you know, I'm, I'm on the east coast of the United States. And it's kind of like a gogogo mentality, and there's a lot of urgency, there's a lot of busyness. And that's just kind of in the air. And like, it's not even something I notice, unless I'm somewhere else. Right. And in, in Nashville, I just the first time I went down, you know, it was it was January of 2021. So the rug had essentially just been pulled out from under all these, you know, musicians are sitting there with the band hired to do this gig. And that was probably really good for them and everything. But Alexa, several of them are touring musicians that just didn't have a job anymore, you know? And you can get really down and have about that. And that can really sort of destroy you and your confidence. But like, every single one of them was like, Well, yeah. And then I learned how to do this from home. And then I figured out this thing, and I thought why isn't this possible? And that's sort of been the thing every time I've gone down there just the spirit of like, why not? Yeah, like, why don't we try. And these aren't like big, huge artists, you know, they're, they're usually little indie people. And, you know, I just this last project they recorded. The drummer, who we got her name is Megan Coleman, but she was, had just been on tour with Alison Russell, who's a really big Americana person who was on tour with brandy Carlisle. Like, that was the tour, she was just on, you know, and then she came and recorded my little rinky dink project, you know what I mean? And so like, to be a working successful musician, means so many different things. And it really has a lot to do with your belief and possibility. And also imagination. And I think that's really what that you know, what that what the these experiences have really shown me is that like, doing the thing, and actually, my son, my producers life said this to me, when we had dinner when I was there, and she was like, you know, that you're doing, you're doing the thing? You're already doing it, you know, like, you don't have to wait for some abstract, like, successful, like, you know, Sunday come up over the horizon. Like, yeah, you're doing the thing. And that is it, you know, like, congratulations, because you're doing the thing. And I don't think I'd ever really thought about it that way before where it's like, Oh, I get to, you know, am I making money? Absolutely not. What I like to be sure, that's a separate issue. It's a separate issue altogether. Am I Well, Getting to believe that my creative pursuits, instincts and outcomes are are worth trusting and pursuing. I do get to do that every day. And that's, that's pretty cool. And you've got your daughter's watching, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. I mean usually pretty annoyed with me but later they're gonna be like even heard about bound? There's no way to shame is refusing Have you got anything in the future that you want to mention that's coming up or anything else you want to mention anything at all that's on your mind? Oh, what is on my mind these days? I'm, you know, I guess I want to emphasize that like you're not doing it wrong if it's really hard. You know what I mean? Because things worth doing are hard. That's just it. And like today, and this week, I've really been struggling because you know, people don't get back to me quickly, or with the right answers that I want. At that moment. Like today, I got frustrated because I was talking to a photographer and I have this idea for a photo shoot for this next project. And he wouldn't just say, like, do this, this is a good idea. And every time I leave a conversation with God, I think, what's that? Do they hate my idea? Like, is it not worth pursuing? Should I trust it? And like, you feel this really lonely? Because you're like, I'm the only one who thinks this. Yeah. And I guess I guess I want to say like, get even if you're the only one who thinks that, it's, it's your, you know, it's worth doing. It's worth doing. If you if, you know, if you're compelled to do it, you know, you can't stop thinking about it. It's, you know, if it's if it's becomes that sort of like obsessive thought, chances are like, you're not going to be able to not do it. And, yeah, and to just I guess, try trust it trust that difficulty. Not not because it makes it easier. Not because it makes it easier. But because it had no it reminds you, I guess maybe of the worth of the worth of it. And, you know, looking back on all the work from the last project that was predominantly solo and really difficult. I'm so proud of it, you know, so proud. And I know, you know, through all this, like, you know, every day it's sort of this like, well, the person making the video get back to me, well, the person booking the venue of the it's always just this like, silent prayer, like somebody's going to be like, Yes, this is good. But the first this is good, like has to come has to come from me, this is good. And it is worth it. And I'm not going to give up until somebody sees that it's good with me. Not because that validates it, but because it needs to be out in the world somewhere. And whoever needs to hear it. should hear it. And so I'm gonna do the best I can to make sure that they do. Well. Good Anya. Love that. That is a that is brilliantly said. I think we can all relate to that in different ways. Yeah, that's that's really good. Oh, thanks. I'm gonna get a new project coming out. But I don't have a specific date for that yet. So I can't pitch it. But you know, if you want to follow me on Instagram, I'd love to have you there. It's Katie, underscore Callahan underscore music. You know, that's, it's pretty fun. Pretty fun over there a lot. It is fun. It's a lot of snakes over shoulder snakes. Oh, God, I think about the people like oh my god, who's actually seen this, like periodically, like the preschool teacher will like it. And I'm like Sorry. I'll put the links to your to all your bits and bobs in the show notes so people can click along and yeah, and I mean, as soon as as soon as I have stuff to share about the new the new stuff. I'm so excited about it. And it's you know, it's for people like you interview you know, like, when i Whenever I listen, I'm like a man that is exactly. That's exactly the kind of person I want. You know that I want to hear this music that's coming out. So yeah, it's about it's badass guys, so I can't wait. I'm excited. That's awesome. Good Anya. Aw, thank you so much for coming on. It's been such a pleasure chatting and I just keep doing what you're doing because I just love love your energy and your enthusiasm and what you share with the world. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been a true joy. I loved it loved meeting you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time moms chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage.net forward slash podcast

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Jedda Glynn South Australian florist, designer and small business owner S1 Ep19 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Jedda Glynn is a designer and small business owner from Burrungule, South Australia and a mother of 3. Jedda Grew up in a small country town, surrounded by a creative family. She’s been a dancer her whole life, running the Kongorong Calisthenics Club for many years, and recently starting her own small business, The Springs Creative, where Jedda arranges rustic dried flowers, with the help of her young children. We chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life, the joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children and the importance of having a supportive family around her, and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. **This episode contains discussions around domestic violence and an abusive relationship** Connect with Jedda on Instagram Find out about Squib Group Find out more about the Kongorong Calisthenics Club Connect with the podcast here Music used with permission in this episode is from Alison Newman and Alemjo When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for my guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... elcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mother of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discussed in the show notes, along with the music played, and the link to find the podcast on Instagram. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional custodians of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship that traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging elder's past, present and emerging. Thank you for joining me. My guest today on the podcast is Jeddah clean. Jeddah is a designer and small business owner from barren gold, South Australia, and a mother of three jeder grew up in a small country town surrounded by a creative family. She's been a dancer for her whole life, running the conga and calisthenics club for many years. And recently, she started her own business, the springs created where She arranges rustic dried flowers with the help of her young children. Today, we chat about how being creative kept her sane during a difficult time in her life. The joy of sharing the creative side of the business with her children, the importance of having a supportive family around her and the perks of living in the country and raising children on a farm. Please be aware this episode contains discussions around domestic violence and abusive relationship. MUSIC Today is used with permission from Alison Newman, and LM Joe. Welcome, Jenna, thank you so much for coming on today. Thanks for having me. Your project is called the springs creative. Can you tell us about that and how you got started and what you make? Um, well, it's very, a very new business. Earlier in the, my partner took myself and our kids on a little holiday up to Victor Harbor. And I just snuck away from them for a while and went through a little market that they had along the foreshore and I noticed a lady up there was selling like bunches of dried wheat and little ponytails and things which we see on the side of the roads down here everywhere. Like it's a very rainy, a lovely little nature. I concept I guess. Yeah. And that's, I don't know identities, were something that I can do here on the farm. I can go out exploring with kids. And we can cut down the branches of trees that we like or that have flowers in the garden. And we just tried to dry some and it worked out really easy. So I decided, oh, let's sell them for Mother's Day. So I put together I think it was 30 odd little recycled jars with some bunches in them and started a little Instagram platform. And it sort of escalated from there. And I had it was messaging me for weddings coming up this season. And then I decided to create a website. And yeah, the little businesses grown and grown from there. So we called it the springs creative because that's where we are in Baringo it's called a little area code the springs and where we live runs alongside the Springs Road so it's sort of just clicked that little Yeah, idea. Yeah, that's great. And yes, have a look on on the Instagram. Anyone that's listening to this because they're just gorgeous. They're They're very, it's it's different, isn't it? They? I guess because they're dry. They're gonna last and last and last. They're not like the fresh flowers that are gonna do they're gonna wilt in and die. They just look amazing. You've got a real talent to for these. Putting them together. Have you always been sort of a creative person making things? I guess so. Even as a little girl I didn't have that many dolls I was writing to pencils and paper and drawing and in my room and making things my my mum and my And both bananas are right into quoting and making. So I've always had that, you know, a home I guess my dad's even quite creative being he's a farmer as well. Making things out of junk like building things and building machinery very clearly like that. And then when I was younger, my mum got me into calisthenics. So I've been in dance my whole life. I'm also a part of the conquering calisthenics club and running that club by myself as a coach. Yeah, so I've been into making costumes and sequencing and creating teens and yeah, smart my life I guess I love I love being a being hands in mind and in our guests during high school. I was in love with all the art subjects and design and things before before I go to maths and science like me, so yeah, it wasn't a great fan of school. But yeah. I can totally relate to that. Say you mentioned that your children help you gather and collect things for your work? Tell us about your children. I have three kids. I've got a son and two daughters. Yeah, what are they nearly nearly six nearly four and just turned one. Busy but a lot of my making and business planning I guess is done when they go to bed. So you spend all night doing your hypnosis because your daily times for your kids your day times for school drop offs in washing and housework. Yeah, it is. It is a big a big commitment to decide to open a business because you do have to give me your free time to to that. Yeah. That's it, isn't it? And especially having a little one too. I guess you're not. You're not guaranteed a full night's sleep either. So no, I am honestly very lucky. All the kids are great sleepers. They go to bed at seven and they they wake up at about seven the next day. So yeah, I am pretty strict on their routine. So I can by eight o'clock jump on in my office and get some stuff done. Yeah. Well, that's great. You mentioned about the farm. So do you do actually have a farm as well that you run? Yeah, my partner's a part of a family trust. So we're surrounded by family. There's Yeah. Every day there's something happening was sharing to be done. There's harvest and silage, there's Yeah, sheep work or whatever needs to have happen. They've also got a theory that they run as well. Yeah, so I am surrounded by a lot of business minded people. So it's been really great to bounce ideas. And they've actually shown quite a great interest in what I'm doing, which is exciting and encouraging. Yeah. Yeah. It's great to have that support, isn't it? And especially with having three children, you'd sort of you'd need to have a pretty good support network around you. Yeah. And my parents lived down in Congress, they're not far away, as well. So yeah, my mom has my kids a lot for me to do my calisthenics. So yeah, go away to competitions and things like that. She Yeah, she takes all that on talking about the concept of mum guilt, you know, this idea that yeah, just supposed to be doing mum stuff all the time, and we're not supposed to do anything for ourselves and Yeah, my eldest three kids from a previous marriage. So I went through a lot of dv relationship. And I left that relationship when my daughter was only, not even one years old. So I've had them longer for a long time. I don't remember much of my daughter's life, because I was going through a lot of things behind the scenes. But I feel that the calisthenics especially, was my escape from what was going on in my home, I could go to castings, and be creative and find my happiness, then come home, and it wasn't okay. So then I moved in with my parents and I could, I could let go, I could be who I wanted to be, and find my happiness again. And I still, I still have a lot of mom guilt. Because I chose to be creative over being there for my kids. But now things are a lot different in a lot happier relationship, happier home, I can juggle both I can be creative, and I can be I can be mum, and can be present. Like it's been very different. Having my youngest and going through bringing her up and, and a little the joys of breastfeeding and things we support around me. It's been a lot. lot different. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess creating the springs creative. He's also something I can do with the kids like exploring the farm, going going out into nature, and oh, look at these wondering what that's going to look like in a couple of weeks after we've hung it up and dried it, or what color could we try and make this grass because we've been experimenting with dyes and food coloring and things to try and suck up into the stems and create new colors and things like that. So that's been fun to do with kids? Oh, yeah. It's almost like a little like, like a science project or so. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it was, it was great to do through COVID as well, not their way here in South Australia had much COVID dramas, but it kept us saying that we could do a little bit of schoolwork in the morning and then get out in the garden. And we'll go for a walk around the paddock and see what we can find. Yeah, for sure. And it's like, I guess, I mean, the kids probably aren't on social media, the ages. But can they sort of delay See, they see the finished product? And they they sort of have an understanding that what they've Yeah, has made this beautiful product, I guess. Yeah, let my my daughter especially, I'll make up a bunch of flowers, and they've got to be delivered up to the hospital. Let's say this to a new baby. And she gets so excited that we're going to Yeah, make someone say brighter with something that we've made. Yeah, that's beauty. And that whole, that whole giving concept that it gives the learning that you can spoil someone without it being a toy or something materialistic it can be a bunch of flowers is enough for somebody as well. Yeah. Yeah, that's really lovely. Do you mind if we delve into this previous relationship a bit more? Is that appropriate? Obviously, if there's anything you don't want to talk about, I'm just interested this the connection that you you raised about the way that being creative was like your outlet. It was your escape. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk a bit more about that? Is that? Yeah, well, at the time, I was teaching classes at the Congress home. And, like it was a commitment, good scribble gene for classes, two or three times a week. I had to go. I couldn't be having a worse day. But at four o'clock, I had to be there to open a hole up for these kids to come in for their classes. Like when I opened that whole door and walked in. It was I'm free, like, I can do what I want to do for the next year and a half. But when I shut that door and walk out, I have to go back to reality. So I guess it was it kept my, my my I know my gears going it kept kept me alive. You could be honest that. Yeah. And then when I guess when things got to that point where I decided that enough was enough, it still was my, my my little I was my therapy, I guess I could I was going through counseling, going through mediation and things. And yeah, I can be really stressed out. And it was my Yeah. A little a little escape from what was really going on in my life. Yeah. forever grateful for those those kids. I have no idea of what they helped me through. But yeah, they got me through some of the darkest days. Yeah, yeah. And that sense of community. I suppose having having people around you that valued you. And looked up to you. Yeah, yeah. With Yeah, definitely. I love being a part of small communities, because for that reason, your next door neighbor knows what's going on in your world. And they're there for you. Yeah. Well, yeah. My parents were my brother, my sister in law. And then, after 12 months of living with my parents, I moved into a home with my kids, just me and the two kids. And we're only a few doors down for my parents and my brother like it was a little safety net. And yeah, we got we got through it. Yeah. I met my current partner and moved down to Cancun for the first time in my life. When he moved 10 minutes up the road into Boingo. Yeah. Well done. Good for you. Yeah, that's a great, it's a great outcome. You know, you hear a lot of a lot of things not going going the other way when it comes to domestic violence. And I always consider myself one of those lucky ones. Yeah, I felt I felt like I had people behind me to push me through through that mountain because a lot of girls get to that point and they turn around if you go back to like it. I totally understand why girls go back. And it's not only girls it's guys too. But when I took those steps it was crazy how many doors were open for me with counseling. Support hearing about Gambia there's a lot a lot of things I didn't even realize to exist for people ya know, I met some amazing humans who encouraged me to keep going to keep climbing Yeah, I got there in the past I guess yeah, let's go yeah you born and bred in Congo wrong. Usually I've lived here my whole life and even the ceramics which is a beautiful area. It's only what would it be from the man it's like 15 minutes would it be yeah if that Yeah. So we're right on the highway so pretty much where the Grand Council turns to what arrange Council? Yeah. And there's the old springs hole that's still there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Often drive past that and think Oh, wonder how many lovely you know, dances and parties and stuff. They have their history around this. Phenomenal No luck there. The beautiful old homes at the old Baringo homestead there on the hill. Yeah. Love beautiful properties, like the hills and green grass and the scrub lands and stuff like that. And then like then all you can see is the bluff as well. Yeah, some fucking mornings. It's really quite eerie. When you look at over. Yeah. It's a beautiful park. That's the thing. I guess. Most people would just drive straight through there. They're on their way to somewhere else. And they just, you know. Yeah. I always did like living here in Congo. He drafted like, oh, every now and then to go to football or netball. You never paid any notice to him? Yeah, yeah, that's it, isn't it? We used to spend a lot of Sunday drives driving around with mom and dad that was just sitting on a Sunday. Go for a cook For, ya know that that tracks between here and anywhere, my dad knew them. So we spent a lot of time driving around, which I probably took for granted as a as a teenage girl or even a bit younger like I was, this is so boring. And it's my going home. And now I love it. Driving around, we decided to go in a different way home every now and then. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. And like, yeah, you kids, you kids who grow up with that different sort of view on the world, too. I suppose that there's all these hidden hidden places that people don't know about and all this cool stuff. It's a great lifestyle raising kids in, in the country and on a farm that they they see and learns things so differently. My son knows about the birds and bees now like he's just worked out for himself. Like when I was pregnant with my youngest, Haney how it all happened. So the Rams in the shape have it. That's one less conversation you've got to have as anyone have to even think about it. I guess to then the concept of death to life and death. It's not a dog. Because they see it, you know, often, I guess, yeah, like that we eat our own meat off the farm like lamb and pork. You know, kids know where it comes from. They know. They know what goes into what they have to they may the hard work that goes into raising the lambs to be that to that point, and when they go on the back to the abbatoirs. Or if the when the pigs go to the piggery from the piggery to abiqua. And they know what's happening where they're going. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's a great thing to teach children. I think too, because there's no denial then. You're not hiding things and no wedding milk comes in this year. Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a that's a good one. I think. Not recently, even a couple of weeks ago, I think my pop said to me Oh, I saw this article the city kids they don't even know where milk comes from. And it's kind of like a joke but I think it's true. You know, like there's so many kids that are detached from from that they don't understand they probably think it just goes it's in a factory in squirts out of some big machine you know, it's not Yeah, connection. Yeah, yeah. But then we don't know what goes on in city life like what it's like to ram or bus or gosh, like, yeah, yeah, what it's like to drive around you around in a car park at the shopping center trying to get apart. We don't have to deal with that. Yeah, that's a great way of looking at it. I've never thought of it that way that's really good. perspective or even when it's like to walk to school we drive to school or drive the bus stop or not that we're hugely remote but we are in a way Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it isn't it? All these little differences and we just I guess we take for granted what we know and don't think about what we don't know the concept of identity is something that I love to chat to moms about on the podcast. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Like is it important to you to sort of put in air quotes to be more than just a mum to have your own your own identity and your sense of self? I guess I guess I know Facebook keeps reminded me of my what my life used to be before kids Saturday nights it shadows or I don't know even just little adventures I used to do back in the day is a total lifetime ago for me. Yeah, and I guess when you do become a mum you have to let go of that life yeah. You your your life comes second to your kids slow development and their their health and well being is above above yours. Yeah. But you do have to keep it leveled enough that you are your best self where you're at can't be can't be distant you can't be unwell. You've got to be that for that therefore them which I guess I've learned from the past that are needed to put my kids first to get out of that for them. Yeah. Yah, yah, yah. Yah, I love being on I probably love I love being a stay at home mom, I'm very lucky that I can have that role. But yeah, you don't can't get a break. I don't get to go to work and have seven hours without my kids. I've got to be with them. 24/7 so that so that time when they're in bed and you're doing, you're doing your thing that is that is really precious. Isn't it that time that you get? Yeah. And that that they use my time? Yeah, that's my, my. My therapy. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess you you've got to look at look at it like that, that you can use the time that you aren't with your kids to be productive, but also using it to have your time out of work. You've got to go to trade like that, like your time and Once Upon a Time was going out for dinner with friends are going out getting your hair done, but you're going to look at it differently that that's a trait it's not your everyday. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And even even having an opportunity to go to Woolies and get some groceries without the kids such Some. Some new time. Yeah. Yeah. You're still doing your mum work. It's it's your chance to Yeah, timeout or that moment before school pick up and you see the car on your phone. But your your time? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it think things take on this new perspective? And? But yeah, you're right. Like it's in finding those little moments, and then being aware of how they're fitting in for you. And not just sort of not just sort of going through the day, like mindlessly I guess. Yeah, yeah. Really pinpointing those moments saying, right, this is my time and you know, owning it and making the most, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it could be a morning the kids sleeping that little extra 20 minutes, and you get to watch sunrise on TV and have your coffee hot? Like it's yeah, those things. Yeah. Yeah. That's your time. A little things before before the answer. It's working, really getting down to the road. It's a little five minutes of freedom. I think that that sort of shifting perspective, it's, it's challenging, but I think that looking at it that way will help a lot of people too. I think just just shifting, shifting the way because yeah, life life is not going to all of a sudden say, Hey, I'm gonna look after your kids for two weeks while you go on a holiday. You know, it's an if you've got to, you've got to sort of find those little moments in the in the mundane every day, day to day activities. Yeah, and you also got to find that. I guess in your relationship to that mum and dad can have their time out when they want to, it's okay. If dad wants to go fishing or whatever mums allowed to go, go for a walk or go do what she likes to do. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just all about mum. Both and the kids, the kids also need to see that. We both we both can go do what we're gonna do. We don't have to be at the same time, I guess. Like, yeah. Yeah, like, we both can go do our own things. As parents, we don't have to rely on each other. I guess. Like, yeah, you can have something for yourself. Do something by yourself. It doesn't have to always be with someone. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, like our relationship is like dunking, going go fishing, or go catch up with his mates or his brothers in so so it's okay. Like, it's not. We have to do everything all together all the time. Yeah. And if I go down to the sick, catch up with my friends, or go to dancing or whatever, that's, that's okay. It's yeah. Yeah, it's great for the kids to be able to say that it's not to stand like the strength in relationships. You know, you don't have you have to be with each other all the time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I guess I guess the lock the lifestyle around. Things don't stuff on the farm. You can't have Saturday and Sunday off. Things still need to be done. The weather's right after the sun been near like this weekend. We weren't planning on doing anything as such, but we ended up sharing 15 games, but yeah, the kids and I had planned to go to narracott yesterday, so we still went and yeah, we still got to do what we plan to do. Yeah. But yeah, things on the farm still have to be done. Yeah. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. And I guess that teachers, sort of models, I guess, like that adaptability and that resilience. I suppose that if whatever is thrown at you, you've you've just got to deal with it at that time. And yeah, yeah. And it teaches the kids too, that plans change, as well, that it's okay. It's not something you fit. Yeah, it can be disappointing, but you keep up and walk on. And it goes on. Yeah. Because change is a big a big thing for anyone, for adults, but for children, especially when plans change. So I think that's, that's a really valuable thing for for kids to grow up with that idea that it is okay for things to change. And, and it's not a thing to be scared of, because I think a lot of people are asking. Yes, yes. Yeah. I've never thought of this stuff before. It's really cool. It's like your children are getting this their own special brand of, of life education, I suppose. Will these these little thick tools? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I guess I was, I was brought up the same like I was brought up that you talked about what you want to talk about, get it sorted out, there's no worrying, there's no need to go round and round in circles so that you can you can find a solution to a problem. Yeah, work it out and move on. Or? Yeah, yeah. And talk it out rather than, you know, dwell on it, hide it and internalize it and go around around around forever. Sometimes I still overthink everything. It's what we do as humans. A blurry that things are the same things. And then ends and you move on you just Yeah. Yeah, I'm blown away with our area, like, how supportive other small businesses are of small business startups. Yeah, it's fantastic. That you can reach out to other little businesses and they'll give you a heads up on things or CVS, things like I had, had a couple of girls. Say, Go for it, go to the library, market, get yourself and your branding out there and see what happens. But just Instagram alone has been amazing for me. The followers and the shares. Yeah, the inquiries for weddings has been amazing and exciting. It's exciting to share that happiness with those people. Because a lot of them have had their weddings canceled because of COVID. And to be a part of that excitement for them, and then they're still worrying that things will get canceled. But yeah, yeah, that's, I'm really looking forward to got my way our first wedding coming up on the 20th of November. So yeah, I'm super excited to. Yeah, bring all those ideas out and show what we what we can do. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. And then to see where things go, like if we can get more into the wholesale of dry flowers. The boys this year have a lot of wheat crops in two of my partner's brothers own a business in Millicent called squeak group, which is a stock feed plant so they make a lot of canola meal and canola oil and other products as well, which has been super exciting watching them growing their business. Like it's a multi million dollar thesis, but my little flowers is flooding along but it's so good having family that around, like who are very business minded and say you should be doing this you should be doing that. Have you thought about this or? Yeah. How much did you make on it this week? What was your profit like? You should be looking at this. You shouldn't be doing that. Like I'm just a little, little, little check making some flowers. It's no big deal. No. It is great having having people like that to bounce off decisions, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's thing even though you you're the scale might be a little different, but they might, you know, have a suggestion of something and you go, Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one night, every now and then they have a fire and catch up at our place. And I was saying how much dried wheat is on the wholesale market. And they all is what you can make a driveway in their crops and firewood with scissors, cutting down wheat. So I'll make a profit off their crop, so it shouldn't be fun. And even like, fracking, we've got all our scrub weeds that we spray for weeds. Yes. Huge, popular over in America like looking at the summer. And bouquets they've got those in there bouquets. Like that's something I've got my back door. Yeah, easily. Yeah. So it's cool watching trends from overseas that come into Australia and yeah, trying to get my head around things and what all the whatever on locks and yeah, that's, that's awesome. Again, that perspective shifts like something that that we spray we get rid of, because it takes you know, takes up room in the grazing and it's just a pest. People People love and they want in their bouquets. It's like the Pampas grass and things like that. Like it's, it's classed as a weed. Yeah. And I've been looking at, had a lot of people inquire for me to post them bouquets or post them arrangements, so looking by security in different states, and each state has a different role. It's amazing how Australia can be one country but have all these different laws in different states. Yeah, okay. Hey, Sydney. I've really liked to get into his posting them, but it's going to be very complicated to do it. Yeah. Oh, it sounds like you've got some fun coming up in the future. Yeah, hopefully, building and growing. Yeah, hopefully. I feel like I've finally found my little niche and my little, little thing and laughter run when I left high school in 2008 with no clue at all what I wanted to do following year 12. So it is nice. It's nice to finally find my my life but yeah. life a life that I can still be mom and still be there. For school pickups and drop offs or volunteering at the canteen or whatever. I can still do both. Yeah, I need to see where things go. That's for sure. Yeah, well, absolutely. I'll be I'll be watching. I'm sure a lot of people will be after this. Because yeah, it's a great story. And I'm really, yeah, and your products are beautiful. You know. I just thank you for having me. Yeah. I love listening to your thought your podcasts and very interesting guests you've had on so yeah, and it seems foreign to someone like me. I'm just a little little piece of the pie out here so young. It's nice to Yeah, listen to other people's journeys and find inspiration from what they've done. Yeah, it's good. If you or someone you know, would like to be a guest on the podcast, please contact me at the link in the bio. Or send me an email. Alison Newman dotnet. Age to Ellis Cafe is a fortnightly ish, long form interview based podcast featuring conversations about politics, environment and mental health in a world on edge with Ben heavy. Ben is an international relations researcher, environmental educator, mental health advocate and longtime friend of mine who enjoys having a yarn over a hot coffee. The podcast tries to make sense of the different kinds of edges that define us, divide us and shape how we interact with each other. In a world that's gone a little bonkers, and what it means to be a little different. Check it out at pod bean.com or wherever you get your podcasts

Mezz Coleman Australian indie musician S2 Ep48 Listen and subscribe on Apple podcasts (itunes) Spotify + Google podcasts Welcome! My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter + vocal coach Mezz Coleman, mum of 2 children, aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her. Her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business, her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age, it was quite organic that Mezz would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. Straight out of high school Mezz went to Uni to study a jazz improv course. Her son was born in her final year of Uni, so Mezz has never experienced her music career without having children. Mezz has released 3 studio albums, Parts of You, Parts of Me in 2010 , Words in 2015 and a Christmas Album in 2015 . Mezz is currently recording her third studio album, a chamber indie-pop record, produced by Rohan Sforcina (Oh Mercy, Kate Miller Heidke, Ali Barter, Ferla) Adored by folk festival audiences around the country and celebrated as “a musical treasure” ( Bendigo Blues & Roots Festival ), Mezz has a unique ability to conjure worlds, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight-to-the-heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on Carols by Candlelight , and open for the likes of Kimbra, multi-award-winning songwriter Sara Storer and iconic Australian artist Shane Howard (Goanna). When she’s not performing her own material, Mezz’s experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist, has given her the opportunity to work with many international and national artists including Nana Mouskouri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne Gospel Choir. In 2021 Mezz toured as backing vocalist and keyboard player for The Marrollo Project’s “Uninvited: The Songs of Alanis Morissette” . Mezz website / music / linktree Podcast - instagram / website Music heard on todays podcast is from Mezz, used with permission When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered. While continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggler, how mothers work is influenced by their children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bandik people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Welcome to the podcast. It is really great to have you here. My guest today is Melbourne songstress, songwriter and vocal coach, Mezz Coleman, who's also amother of two children aged 16 and 11. Mezz grew up with music all around her, her parents took a leap of faith and began a music therapy business her siblings played as did her friends. It was so normal to see people make a living from music. Having been immersed in it from a young age. It was quite organic that Ms would spend her life making music. She began playing the piano from a young age, dabbled in the flute and guitar. straight out of high school Mezz. went to uni to study a jazz improv and her son was born in her final year of uni. So Ms has never experienced her music career without having children. Ms has released three studio albums, parts of you parts of me in 2010 words in 2015 and a Christmas album also in 2015. Mercy is currently recording a chamber indie pop record, adored by Folk Festival audiences around the country and celebrate it as a musical treasure. By the Bendigo blues and Roots Festival. Mays has a unique ability to conjure words, transporting audiences with her powerful vocals and straight to the heart lyrics. Her career has seen her appear on national television on carols by candlelight. And I prefer the likes of Kimbra multi award winning songwriter Sarah Stora and iconic Australian artists Shane house of Goanna fame when she's not performing her own material mess his experience as a backing vocalist and session vocalist has given her the opportunity to work with many international and Australian artists such as Nana Maskuri, Brian McFadden, Marcia Hines, Delta Goodrem, Barry Humphries, John Foreman and the Melbourne gospel choir in 2021. Mears tour is backing vocalist and keyboard player for uninviting the songs of Alannis Morissette. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. And thanks for your continued support. Welcome to the podcast today, mares. It's a real pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, it's nice to be able to chat to you because I've been following you for a while after I sort of connected with Georgia through the Motherlode, Georgia fields, and then I saw that you were a guest on there. So I was like, oh, because I'm a musician. So I like to follow people that I can connect with in that way. So yeah. love watching you. You're playing the piano and singing the songs. Yeah, well, yeah. And it's amazing. What Georgia has set up with the mother lode. And it's like, extra special for me, because, um, I've actually known her for a really long time. We're at the same high school together. Yeah. And it's not like we've, you know, hung out throughout all the years, but we've actually known each other for ages and to just see what she's building there. That community for mother musicians. Yeah, amazing. It is. It's so it's so valuable. And it's one of those things that like, there is no rulebook of what to do. It's like you learn from each other and trip over on the way but then you sort of go, oh, I can learn from that. Or I can Yeah, take that on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're a musician, singer and a songwriter. When did you first become interested in music? I think in many ways, I was quite lucky. I have a very musical family. So my parents It's so funny, this is a story that I've only really recently realized is quite amazing, because when it's just your normal life, you don't really think about it. But when my mum was a stay at home mum for a long time, but you know, loved singing, and my dad worked, I think, a fairly uninspiring office job somewhere. And then when we were sort of when me my brothers were sort of like, early teen years. My father's whole office got retrenched. And so he was looking for other work. And I think it was, you know, a little bit disheartening. And then just on this sort of, like, it's sort of, I think it hit him and my mum at the same time, like, we love playing music together, we should do something with this. Oh, and they ended up like, for 1015 years, like, I think they really stopped doing it maybe five or six years ago. So maybe even longer. They actually built a business playing music together. So my dad would play guitar, my mom would sing. And I guess you would say they were like music therapists, they would go into a lot of aged care places, senior citizen places, maybe I'm not sure, maybe hospitals as well, I might be wrong about that. And they would sing for people, and they would and people would join in, and they would like do the songs that would you know, maybe trigger a lot of memories for older people. And so I grew up just thinking it was totally normal to make a living, playing music. That is awesome. Yeah. And when I say totally normal, like, it was tight, sometimes, you know, like, they'd have good weeks, and then then have not such good weeks in terms of, you know, financial, so, but yeah, like I just sort of learnt from an early age that you can play music and make a living from it, and also makes such a big difference in the world with that, I think that's the other thing that they were doing was it was so much more than being like, perfect, or technically brilliant. It was about like sharing a real gift with people. And so I sort of grew up with that idea. And then on top of that, I was really lucky that both of my brothers are quite musical. So we would often just jam together and play together. And then when I went off to high school, a lot of my friends were musical and musicians. And I don't know, I I feel almost like spoiled now that I've met other people who haven't had that experience and really had to fight to kind of play music, even in terms of like, sort of going against maybe what their families, you know, would like them to do and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, very lucky that musics just been around me, and I've been immersed in it. And if anything, I probably just came to it because there wasn't much else I could do. I'm just like, quite good at this. I'm not quite not very good at much else. So. Yeah, sort of how I'm sort of, yeah, found music. It was very organic. Yeah, that is such an awesome story. I love that so much. It was so normal for us that I thought nothing of it. And if anything, I just shrugged my shot I did. And it's only been in the last year or two. That's amazing. That's a really amazing and inspiring thing to see your parents go off and do. Yeah, and that thing to that, you know, in them. I'm not sure exactly how old they were, but just say, midlife they've gone, I'm gonna totally change my career, I'm gonna take this, maybe take a risk, you know, financially, it's like, let's do this, just do something that we love. And that is so inspiring is fine. Yeah, they would have been a fair bit older than I am now. And so to think that there's, I think sometimes as an artist, and maybe especially as a female artist, I'm not sure about that. Maybe I should talk to my male friends and see if they feel the same way that you can feel like time is running out. And that clock is ticking. And oh, shit. Um, you know, I'm turning 40 Soon, and I haven't done the things I wanted to do, or a bit of probably not the same thing when I was like, in my late 20s, about turning 30. And, actually, yeah, to sort of go up, I've got plenty of time. Yes. Sort of, like, try other things. And yeah, and get this stuff done that I want to get done. You know, it's really helped me not feel like there's this mad rush. Yeah, it's really, it's almost like an empowerment that you can take the pressure off yourself. And I can sort of relate this to the kids like my son's in high school, and they start sort of on their paths of what they're going to do when they leave school. And so I keep saying to him, like I was what was I foot nearly 40 When I finally found the job that I loved, you know, you don't have to know straight away, or they do they put so much pressure on these like 1617 year olds to make these, you know, really important decisions to pick a perfect subject and your whole life will depend on it. And I just, yeah, say the same thing to my son. I'm like, whatever. You just work, you know, just do whatever you like, you know, whatever you're doing at the time, try and do your best but it's not this sort of Yeah, it's not a life or death situation. That's it, isn't it? Time to explore the world and yourself. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? You actually have to get out in the world and see how you feel in the world. And absolutely, maybe what are the things you enjoy? Right, I'm gonna leave school and go to uni and I'm gonna drop and that's it your whole life Smackdown was like, that's just so unreasonable, unreasonable and like the stories you know, just like friend after friend after friend who went and started a uni course. And within a year had gone this is so not for me. So like, you know, there's yeah, there's just no rush. It's a really nice Yeah, absolutely. Gosh. Being exposed to the music with your parents, did you start playing particular instruments? At that point? What were you playing? Yeah. So again, when I was quite young, there was this. I just feel so lucky for these rich experiences that I totally took for granted as a child, but there was a woman in my neighborhood who was she played piano? Like, I think back in Dancehall, dancehalls, back in the day, and so she just like, as a very local little business, just all the little kids in the area would go to her house and learn the piano. And you'd get your lowly and you learn your scales, and you'd go through your books, but the thing about her that really set her apart is like she was, you know, I thought of her I think she was you know, quite, she wasn't old, she's still with us. So she's not like that, you know, she was quite a lot older than say, like my parents at the time. And she was so different to so many, like, sort of music teachers in that it didn't take her long to work out that my heart wasn't in all the technical stuff. And also that, you know, I like to sing. So from a really young age, she kind of worked that out. And she was like, Well, I'm going to teach you how to like play chords and accompany yourself, and I'm going to teach you how to improvise. And like, you know, we're not just going to play fair release. And the entertainer and I did do a bit of this wonderful piano teacher who like really picked up early that I wanted to learn that kind of stuff. Maybe even before I knew that, that's what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I've played the piano forever and, and have learnt piano in a way where I've been able to accompany myself to sing since I was practically a kid. And so that's always been a part from my voice. I'm a singer first, but piano would be my secondary instrument. And that's generally the instrument that I write with. And when I'm writing music, and then, you know, just in those sort of primary school and high school years, I dabbled in the flute. And I wasn't bad at it, but my heart wasn't in it. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. The guitar. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always time. I love that. That story about your music teacher that that is such a gift for her to give you because so many music teachers, it's like theory. You know, like I, I, my experience was with teachers that basically you had to learn your scales yet to know what all the notes were called, and how long you held them for. And I just wanted to play stuff by ear. And it was like, really, like, my, my teacher wasn't as amazing as yours. But I think back now, like, I would have loved to have just learned how to accompany myself, that would have been amazing. Well, she was yeah, she was quite an amazing woman. And actually, a few years ago, I felt really compelled to reach out and thank her and I wrote her this letter, just like, Oh, my God, you're amazing. Thank you. And I got this beautiful letter back. And I think she'd be in her like late 80s by now. The funny thing is, though, when she was teaching me what I think she must have been quite brilliant. Because while she kind of adapted the lessons to suit me and my needs, she somehow was sneaking that theory. And I actually have got a fairly good, you know, theoretical foundation, but really kind of managed to do it in a way where it was helpful or making sense to the end. Yeah, relative to what you wanted to do with your music like, yeah, she's, yeah, she whatever she was, she was working her magic. That's for sure. What a gem of a woman honestly. That's honestly, we should all have a lady like that in our lights. Just be amazing. Marge Williams is her name. Good. Good on your Marge. Give her a shout out. I wish I had met Marge when I was when I was a little girl. That would have been amazing. Yeah. So the game All right. at the moment with your music is your music your life? That's what you do you. Yeah. So, in a roundabout way, I've managed to get to a point in my life where I can sort of comfortably say that I make my living as a musician. But like, realistically, that, Oh, quite a fair percentage of that living is coming from being like, like working in the teaching field, as well as performing and recording and all of those things. I'm really fortunate to have quite a good teaching job at a university here in Melbourne, where I teach mostly singing, like a one on one singing lessons to the students that come through. But I also help, you know, work with bands, and, you know, mentor some of that, you know, mentor the students through some of those processes and classes. And then on top of that, yeah, my, so, artistically, the thing that I'm most passionate about, and I'm always working towards, sometimes slowly, but is my own music that I write. And that I really, yeah, I pour a lot of myself into. And then I guess the other thing, and obviously, work has been quite quiet in the last couple of years due to COVID. But as a singer, like, as a vocalist, I can Yeah, I often work in that field, I guess for other people. So doing session work in studios for like, people that need a, you know, a vocal line on this particular track, or a harmony or a demo and, and working as a backing vocalist for other artists as well. So through or So like most, I think, not just me, I think like most artists, you generally you don't have like that sort of nine to five, steady job, you just you have your fingers in all of the pies, and you kind of slowly build whatever it is that you're building that way, which in some ways is kind of stressful, because you can't remember what do I do on Wednesday. And, you know, there can be dips financially, of course, especially when we're in COVID. But even before that, to be honest, but I also know I wasn't built for a nine to five job. So in many ways, it's thrilling to be doing a few different things. And I get quite excited when I'm looking in my diary and I'm like, Oh, I've been booked for that session next week cool, like different people different kinds of environments. So yeah, yeah. Without the teaching work It'd be impossible Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that you but you're still so involved in music like it's not like it doesn't probably doesn't feel like a real autonomous a real job because it is a real job but you know, you're you're really enjoying what you're doing. Absolutely. I there are things about teaching that can be quite draining and you know, because I put a lot of myself into it. But there are also like yeah, I'm still like I'm surrounded by music every day many of my students inspire me I work I have amazing peers so like other teachers that I work with they're all musicians so I'm sort of like spending time in that world still yeah work yeah sounds awesome yeah day and God fashion keep it to myself most days I struggle to this crew good. Kids my thing carefree was counting on. But it's a bit of an intro into your children. I came into what were you doing at the time when you had your children? Oh, goodness, okay, so I have, my son is almost 16. And my daughter is 11. And my son in particular came along in a very interesting time. I was studying music at university. So I went straight out of high school into a music course that I studied is like a jazz kind of improv course, which was interesting. And in that final semester, of the entire course, I discovered I was pregnant. And that was quite intense. Because I was trying to like, sort of start this music, career, whatever that is. The same time, I suddenly had this, like, human being that was like, gonna need my care. So I had him when I was 21. So nearly my, so my entire music career really has coincided with raising a child, which has been, which has had some real positives, and has also obviously presented quite a few challenges. Yeah, he's sort of been with me every step of the way. And, yeah, it's been. Yeah, overall, it's been a really great thing. And yeah, I guess the main, the main thing that I now know, looking back, not that I would change a thing, but I never really got those years prior to kids to build something up first. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, like my 20s. You know, for instance, I didn't spend my 20s being able to just say yes to every opportunity, or like, just be like, yes, we'd all go on that tour. See, everyone, I had to be from sort of day one, I never stopped, like, I always like, you know, I released an EP not long after he was born, which, kind of like, Oh, my God, how did I do that. However, I probably never had quite the capacity to take things as far as I would have liked. Because like, the child comes first. Like, that's the reality. And so like, my music always played, like a really close second to my number one priority, which was, you know, raising this beautiful boy. So. Yeah, that's, that's just how that's just how it has been for me, like music and parenting have always had to coexist. I don't remember ever. Yeah, obviously, like, I've got an amazing partner. We've been together for a long time. And so I've never had to do it all alone, which is great. But like just little things, like, I don't know what it's like to book a gig without also going, who's gonna watch the kids? I actually never had that experience. It's always been those two things happening at the same time. So yeah, it's a unique perspective, isn't it? It's a little different. Yeah, and I can definitely see how it would have its positives. It does. Yeah, there have definitely been positive. So the positive that I'm feeling now and the so like, you know, the positive place that I find myself in now, is I'm currently at a place with an 11 year old and an almost 16 year old who are pretty independent. And I now have this time and space and energy to be really going for it. And so where a lot of my friends who like have done a lot of their now maybe like they've got toddlers, or they've just had a baby. And so well, while a lot of my peers are probably like slowing down a little bit, which is so fine. They should, they've got kids that need that care. I'm at a place now where I'm really like, much more sort of time rich, and kind of really go for it. And the fact is, I think my music is better now than it was when I was 2122 23. So I could have you know, the energy and the time that I could have poured into my art back then I'm sure it would have been great. But actually, I think the work I'm making is better now with maturity. And now I have this energy also to kind of Yeah, kind of play with I guess. I think the other thing that helps sort of having children along pretty much from the beginning is you. You tend to I don't want to say you use your time well, because people who know me would know that I'm not great at that. But I guess like as in I'm a terrible planner, and I can, you know, procrastinate like anybody's business. But I guess the thing that I do know when you know if you've got to babysitter, and you need to be, you know, so you've aren't, hey, I've got a rehearsal. And I've asked someone to watch the kids till you know, this time, you don't just wander into that rehearsal and blah, blah, blah and wait, like, so you have shorter pockets of time. And so you bloody well use them properly. And so what I found is like, yeah, like, so? Yeah, you it's almost like you get these pockets of time, you don't have just like this rich expanse, expensive time just before you when you can do whatever you want. And slowly, you know, kind of work on songwriting, or rehearsal or recording session, like, sometimes your time is limited, generally, always, to be honest. And as a result, you get quite good at working pretty fast. If I'm honest. Like, yeah, I'm pretty good at getting in and out of the studio, like, position work. And I reckon, part of that has just been through experience where I'm like, Well, I've got to leave it midday. So I think I've got that skill where I can be a little bit like, when I really have to focus on time, creatively, I can kind of just get it done. Same with songwriting, like I really, I mean, I don't, I'm not a prolific songwriter, like, I don't write heaps. But I do feel like when I'm like, Okay, I've got this time, I've got this energy and like, say, when the kids were younger, you know, the kids are occupied, or away or whatever, and I've got these few hours, I would generally walk out of there with a song or two, because it was like, I have to, really, ya know, so that kind of time pressure can work. to your advantage. Also, there's the flip side to that, where the time pressure can be a massive disadvantage in terms of just not having the space and the time that you would want to give to your art. Yeah, so there's like the payoff of that as well. But I think yeah, really fast. Yeah, yeah. It's it's instilled those skills in you and then you can you can take that through the rest of your life really. Because you just want to be. conscious. You mentioned because you had your son, like, you've never known your career without your son. What was that like then for you being in that world with other musicians, other women who weren't mums yet? Was that how did that feel for you being in that environment? Yeah. So there were, again, musicians, like, especially female musicians, are just beautiful people. And so while I was, for a long time, the only one in my peer group with a child, you know, I used to, like I'm thinking back two years ago, like a long time ago, when he was quite little. And I was actually in this singing group with three other singers. And one of them has gone on to just be absolutely amazing. I'm sure you've heard of it. Ainsley wills. She's like, the best. Anyway, and I remember, I would just take the baby to rehearsals, and they were so lovely. They would like hold him that because it was so cute. Get a lot of like that kind of, oh, we'll hold him and we'll look after him and using that. And so I remember back in the day, actually having a lot of support in the moment, like the other musicians were absolutely amazing. I had an I had a band at the time, and we would rehearse weekly and sometimes I just have to bring, you know, my top baby or toddler with me, and you know, and actually everyone else in that band would dudes. Yeah, some of them were my brothers. So they were like uncles to the to the baby. But you know, our guitarist wasn't and I don't know, he could have just been like, this is crap. I'm, you know, I didn't sign up to kind of come to the studio and keep climbing all over my face, so generous and so kind about it. And so musicians in general, were pretty lovely, and pretty welcoming. I think where it became a challenge was more than just the industry wasn't set up for it. So while individuals within the industry were like, so beautiful, so kind, really found Yeah, the whole situation, I'm sure they were all a bit like, Oh my God, but you know, they were like, is like, our friends got a baby. It's so weird, but um, yeah, everyone was lovely. But it was more when it came to things like geeks and knights and just being like, we can't bring him here, you know, it's dirty, there's no way to breastfeed or change a nappy. You know, I really found that within Melbourne, like, where I live, I was very active in the music scene, and, you know, still am. But if I've never really felt I had the capacity. I know, some parents do. And I'm just like, wow, they're amazing, but I never really felt like I had the capacity to tour. So I've never really even even now like, have never really too much. Or like, sort of been able to spread further than that, because I just didn't feel like there was much space or capacity there to like, take him with me, or, you know, the alternative, I guess would be to leave him for long stretches of time, which again, like, I've thrown no shade on parents who can do that. Like it's just each to their own. Just with, I guess, my parenting style and his personality and needs. That actually didn't feel like an option either. Where I could sort of almost be like, Alright, you're staying at Nando's for two weeks, I'm off. That was just, that was just not a way that we could do things for him. So yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But like, no, yeah, other women and like my peers, my friends. They were so lovely. It was actually divine, like the way they kind of embraced this little baby and toddler who was sometimes at rehearsals, and sometimes it gigs. And, you know, even though none of them had kids, so they'll probably all a bit like, I don't know what to do, but they would hold him or Yeah, you know. But it was more yet the industry as a general kind of beast, I guess. Yeah, my, my, my place there felt a little. I don't know, where Be quiet anymore. Yeah. I'm going off track slightly. But do you think that is because it's mainly a male dominated industry? Or has been in the past? Yeah, I think so. Totally. And I think it's changing. And I think that's really exciting. Yeah, like men, you know, historically, can have kids, and still go off and do their own thing, you know. And, yeah, I think that's definitely, you know, how the world works, too. This is not just the music scene, it's the patriarchy and action. But I do feel like it's changing, I just think the changes are slow. And I think it's different. Now I see friends who sort of musician friends with babies now. And I think that the capacity that they have, and the understanding that they have from other people, I think, is better than probably I had at the time. Also, I've gotta remember, I was very young, I wasn't hugely educated. And so I probably didn't have the capacity personally to like, advocate for things that maybe I would now as a 37 year old woman, like, hey, use rehearsal space, I'm going to have to bring my child wet, you know, like, I'm gonna have to feed him, what are you going to do to help me like, you person to begin with, and especially when I was 21, and probably much more overwhelmed than I allowed myself to kind of think I was, I wasn't gonna ask that I was just gonna, like, yeah. Or, or, or see that as an opportunity that I couldn't have or I don't know, feed him in the car, or, you know, so I think sometimes, you know, having a little bit more, you know, a few more years behind you, and just a bit more confidence. I've advocated for myself a little bit more and being a bit more assertive, but I think the industry is changing. Like, there are so many more women speaking up in the industry, about and not just about motherhood, but just about sexism in general. And just small things like, you know, there are more I'm seeing more females working in manager, you know, like artist manager roles who are female, so they're just gonna have a, I'm sure, just more empathy for the say, their female clients around some of this stuff. I'm seeing more female sound engineers and producers, and I think that is really, really important. publicists did just seem to be a whole bunch of dudes back in the day. Doing that stuff. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's changing but I just think like anything in life changes are slow. So especially when you're trying to change Something that's been endemic since the beginning of time, but seems like we're looking at like this tiny little kind of music industry. I don't know, from my perspective in Melbourne even like, yeah, yeah, that's it. We're talking about an issue that is like, just the way humanity has been built for a very long time. So, yeah, yeah, I can see. Yeah, but I think more more and more women, a lot of performers who have children, I guess it may be being like, if I'm maybe social media, I think social media can be a bit. Yeah, um, but I think sometimes social media might be great in that way that they might post like, they're on tour, but you can see the kid in the backseat of the car, or, you know, I don't know. So maybe, maybe like, you know, female artists sharing their experiences of like, motherhood and the road or motherhood and recording or just motherhood in any sort of arts practice. Just makes it again, it just normalizes it. That's it, isn't it? And it makes it sound achievable for yourself. Because like you said, as a 21 year old, though, that that wasn't in you at that stage. But maybe if social media had been around, or if you had seen someone do it, you would have thought hang on a sec. That's, that is acceptable. I'm gonna have a crack at this sort of, sort of mentality. Yeah, yeah, just seeing some art. Okay. There are a few other artists, you know, doing this as well, because yeah, I definitely felt while everyone was so kind, you know, my other musician, friends, I think, you know, when you're in something, it's very hard to really know how you feel. Because I know when you've just had a baby, sometimes you're in survival mode to a certain extent you just like, head down doing what you got to do. And so I think now that sort of time has passed, I can be a bit more reflective. And I think I was, I think there was still a sense, even though no one overtly excluded me, ever. I do think I felt very alone. Because I didn't have other peers really having that same experience. And then the few people I would look up to and like, oh, wow, that person is a mother and a singer, songwriter, too. They wouldn't maybe I still felt alone in that a little because maybe they'd had their kids a bit later. And so they still had maybe a bit more of an established Korea. Look up to them. Okay, I'll just do what they do. And then I just almost find that really disheartening. Almost more so because I'm like, they're like, doing it all like, and they've got kids and I'm not doing it all. Yeah, so yeah, it was a bit lonely at times. Buried, you came alone with your shop, silent, said, get out, get in, just get to your beauty, your voice your take on a magic. I want to ask you about when you said before, that you you did your AP, when your son was young? And you said I don't know how I did it. Yeah. How did you actually do it? Was he? Is he coming with you a lot? Yeah. Like, how to physically manage it. The first thing to know about my son and my daughter. And it is what it is like. And again, like when it comes to parenting and how we do it. I just have no, I just people do what they've got to do. Like, I just do not care how other people like feed their kids sleep their kids like you do what you got to do. For me, personally, neither of my kids. So it wasn't because like of my own belief system around feeding, but neither of my kids would take a bottle. So the only way they were fed was via me for you know, 18 months, both of them my daughter a bit longer. So they were breastfed, which just meant they couldn't not be with me for long. So the hours so how did I do that EP, I think I had started recording it before he was born. Which helped so I think a lot of the work had been done. And then I think I did little short recording sessions in around feeds Due to finish off some of the vocal stuff, and then when it came time, I guess to like launching it, you know, like playing it playing like some shows and try to build up a bit of publicity around it, which again, like things have changed a bit, I probably would now, looking back, hire a publicist, which I didn't at the time, so it was just a lot of email, beat magazine, and whatever else it was. I just sort of it was just in snatched moments. i Yeah. And I don't know if that's the most sustainable way to do it. But I don't know any other way. I could have done it. Late nights when the babies are finally asleep. That was often when I would sit on the computer and email out my, you know, although Admony type parts of music rehearsals were Yeah, like, he'd be there. And just thankfully, my musician friends were cool with that. Yeah, the actual launch. I remember, I remember the gig, it was a great gig. It was really, you know, everyone came it was, I was so blessed. You know, like, it was a really beautiful moment. And yeah, we brought him. And so yeah, it was sort of this bar. I'm looking back, nothing was even allowed in there. I don't know. But you know, like a band room and a bar. And it was really crowded. And, you know, it was a great show. And yeah, just with this, I think by then you might have been walking, you know, like, sort of toddler age, just sort of this little toddler near the front of the stage. And it was stressful, because like, I think what we sort of had arranged was like, he'll come but people, they're sort of watching him like my mom or whatever. But no one quite watches your child the way you would. So I remember just being on stage and just being like someone grabbing plays, you know, like, he was too close. But like not like just all like I'm literally performed. Internally, almost just yelling at people like, move him grab him. He's too close to that, or whatever it was. Yeah. Looking back. That's not a way to perform. Hey, but yeah, so in hindsight, I probably would have just booked a babysitter and not had him there. at them, you know, in the moment, it felt like the right thing to do to have him there with us. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I think snatches of time is probably the best way to describe, especially those early days when you know, you're fairly sleep deprived, or, you know, they're very kids are very young. Yeah. Like parenting is like a lifelong journey. Like you're never not a parent, you're always on. But those early years, that, like the time that is required of you is very demanding. Yeah, that's it, that changes when they get older, which is really great. And I'm sort of, I think, you know, enjoying the benefits of that now. But also, they become more complex human beings. So I find it emotionally more challenging now. Yeah. But I am getting sleep. And I go somewhere during the day, and my son, gets himself to school, gets himself home, if he wants to go out on the weekend, like, we're at that stage where I'm just like, Oh, my goodness, like so independent. It's brilliant. I love it. And I'm so happy for him because he's obviously enjoying that independence. And yeah, when you think back to just like, oh, you couldn't leave me for more than two hours? Because it is so nice to be in that space. But yeah, then you I don't know. Because you you said you've got a 14 year old that I worry one out or I'm not emotionally like, oh, yeah, it's a whole different ballgame. Isn't it? Like it's? Yeah, like, yeah, the emotionally draining is a good way of describing it. Because you're, yeah, you're just you're trying to solve problems for him. I help him through things and issues with mental health. And yes, yes. This Yeah. Like you become a psychologist. And yeah, my sister in law, Nicole said recently because her kids are sort of my age, but we have nephews and nieces. Who are that younger age, that sort of baby toddler. And yeah, like, she just sort of commented like in a family thread recently, like, Oh, those beautiful days. I miss them. Like, yeah, they were demanding, but they weren't complex. Like, Oh, I feel every word of that. Yeah. So it's a different type of energy that you're pouring into your children, but you never stop. And I'm sure when they're 20 3040. Like, you'll That's it, isn't it? Yeah. It'll be it'll be something it'll be different again. It'll be Yeah, another thing. seems insane to say this, but then maybe there'll be grandkids and you're like, yeah, what's my role here? But I'm gonna use to believe that I'm still way too young to even consider that. So. Yes, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I'll come back to you in like 30 is time when you're doing the grandmother artist. thing. That's awesome. Well, I won't have to worry about one of my kids, because my eldest has told me that he's never having children because it's just too hard. He's seen what we were going through. He's living with a six year old. So he's like, I'm not having kids. We're modeling like, how hard it is. Yeah. Yeah.Because you're gonna want to tow back to? So one of the questions I asked my mums is about before you had kids, what was your influences for your art? And then after you have kids? So asking you this is going to be a little bit different? Because I mean, I'm sure you're going to have some, you know, obviously, to music when you're a child, but in terms of what's influenced you, have you noticed that that has changed? Or how you look at your music? Or I don't know what what sort of changes has your own creativity gone through? As you became a mom? Yeah, I think I think the thing? That's a great question. Like, musically, my influences were pretty broad growing up, and I don't think that's changed. You know, like, one day, all I want to do is listen to Abba. And then the next thing I just want to listen to, like, you know, I actually listened to a lot of classical and choral music, and I don't make that music. But it's often what inspires me the harmony in that is so rich, I love harmony. Actually, that's like probably a big part of what I'm drawn to as a musician is harmony and melody. And so I listen to a lot of music that feels quite dense and rich in that way. As I said before, like before my son came along, I was training more in that sort of jazz wealth, and so was playing quite a lot of jazz music. And a lot of those sort of early jazz singers really inspired me in terms of their vocal sound. So like I absolutely I do absolutely love Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Billie Holiday. huge Beatles fan of course. Yes. My parents pretty much raised me on on the Beatles. And again, their harmony always three. In terms of the Yeah, what inspires me now I think the one thing I feel like my 20s were a little different, right? So a lot of music that's often about like, heartbreak and breaking up, or will we or won't we like just for whatever reason, like I kind of, I found my partner quite young. And we had quite a different experience, like in our 20s. And so I guess sometimes that music even I can really love it. It's not necessarily themes that I'm super drawn to. I guess I'm drawn to themes, like Yeah, so I really loved clear that Bowditch I've never known whether it's Bowditch about it, by the way, but you know what I mean? Yes, I do know, album that came up, actually, when my son was quite little. That was the whole theme was grief. Yeah, I, that had a huge impact on me, because I was like, Oh, you can write a whole album on grief. Like, you don't have to write a whole album on like, you broke up with me, and I'm gonna break up with you. And now we're back together. Because I guess a lot of like, songs in the popular culture are still like, some version of a love song. Yet she wrote this incredible indie pop album on grief. So do you remember what the name of that album was? I do now it was what was left. So it was. That's funny that I just said it. Yes. So she made the album in 2005. And my son was born 2006. So I really remember listening to that. I don't even remember that I was stuck in a lot of grief at the time. But it was more like there were growing up themes. You know, there were real life themes. And they were themes that I kind of that really resonated with me so that that album actually had a huge impact because it showed me that there were other things I could write about. And I could write about things that were really real to me. You know, one of the songs that is on my new album that is still you know, in we're in the process of making and releasing is actually just all without boundaries, I would not have written a song about boundaries when I was 18. Because it's not very sexy at all. I really like it. You know, like, that stuff's important to me. Yes. So, so that album had huge impacts and a huge impact on me. from more of a lyrical perspective, yeah. And then like, musically, my tastes have just never really changed because they were always broad to begin with. And they remain really broad. So I listened to a lot of music that I know I'll never make, like I listen to a lot of neo soul. I'm probably not going to make me I mean, I love it. You know, Jill Scott is one of my favorite singers. And I also just know straight up that I will never sound anything like Jill Scott or make me look like us. But I still love absolutely love her. So I don't. Yeah, don't necessarily always listen to a lot of music that's similar to the music I make. But I don't know, I think that can really make help you be really well rounded to when you're really open to all sorts of styles. And, yeah, I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Oh, hey, puppy. Sorry. I had my cat in here before and she's got a little bell on a collar. And I was like, Don't scratch your head. It's actually not much of a back and normally I think maybe another dog walk by what sort of dog is he? He's a stuffy cross. We don't know what we use in rescue dog. Yeah, and he's one my heart big. Heart. Yeah, he's funny. Yesterday, I interviewed a lady and she had a stuffy as well. Oh, really? And it my son's been on this bandwagon that he wants to get a stuffy and I was like maybe the universe is telling me something. While banjo is a real sweetheart. Yeah, like he was pretty full on when we got him because he was a rescue and hadn't. Yeah, he we pretty much were starting from scratch with him. Yeah, yeah, he's just Yeah, cuddly and but anyway, I think he's still packing now. Good job AJ. You're listening to the art of being a mom was my mom. I was a new member too. Yeah, when you saying before about influences, but they're not necessarily what you put in your music. I appreciate the Beatles so much because of what they've allowed me to understand about how you can present your music. Like, you can do whatever the hell you want. Like, honestly, I play this. And like if you want to, like play, record your guitar solo, and then play it backwards. You can do that. And then you can. But the thing that got me was like, changes of tempo within songs and different elements that go together to make the same song but it's like you're just grabbing stuff from everywhere. And I was just like, I don't have I had a poster on my wall. I've got my Abbott poster up there. And I did have one but it failed. Me Oh my God, and harmonies, harmonies just a massive thing that I love so much. Yeah, it's just like, can just be shown what's like, same thing with your example. With clear it's like, you can write an album on whatever you'd like. Like, I call it the Taylor Swift music like the we broke up and we're getting back together. And then you didn't call me about you know, all this, which I see is really frivolous now, because I'm, you know, happily married and have lots of, you know, security about my life. But I think you know, I can understand where that fits in. But yeah, there's just so much depth to stuff and a singer songwriter that I really admire. Jen lash, I'm not sure if you've heard of Jen. She's a South Australian artist. And look her up. I think you'd really like her music. She's, and she's been a guest on my podcast, and I kind of see her as a bit of a mentor. I don't know if she knows that. Hi. All my mentors have no idea that they might Yes. She inspired me to be able to write songs about really difficult subjects, but make them really listening. So the musical in her words, the musical treatment that she gives that song allows it to be like received by people sort of thing. And about a topic that's very jarring. Yeah, maybe maybe the music can be jarring, too. But maybe you're gonna let more people in if allows that. Yeah. And so yeah, she really inspired me With a song that she wrote about postnatal depression called called Wolf, and when I heard I saw she sang it live. She came down here as part of a sort of a was called Palomino nights at the wall shed it was in this old watershed down in Glencoe. And she performed in this space and when I heard that song, I just went, oh my god, like it was like someone had slapped me in the face and gone. Yeah, you can do stuff about anything. Yeah, so she's really inspired me. Jen lash. Okay. Look her up. Jen's amazing. I love Jen so much. And she's listened to her episode, because she's got such an amazing way of speaking the way she articulates things. She's just such a wordsmith like, Ah, just love. I will definitely listen. Yeah. Yeah, just knowing that you can write about anything, I think was really? Yeah, that's definitely what that clear album did for me. And then you've got that album. She bought out years later, which was the winter I chose happiness, where the theme was almost about this kind of like, so she done his album about grief. And then years later, she did this album. But it wasn't that frivolous happiness. It was, like real choice. Like it was like an oyster kind of. And so again, that another album she might use later also had huge impacts on me like, oh, you can write about happiness without being cheesy. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So yeah, just, yeah. How good is music? So lucky? This? Pretty much you will never hear it all, you know? Yeah. Yeah. People always, actually, because I work with students. They're often like, oh, have you heard blah, blah, blah. And I'll be someone a bit younger. So someone I haven't heard of. And, you know, my mind is just continually blown. Yeah. Let's see. I go through phases, like where I deliberately don't listen to current music, because I want to stay in the past in some way. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to admit that I don't know what's happening right now in music. Like I just I like to know, I like to be able to sing along and I know what's coming. But then sometimes I think I'm missing out on so much, if I don't you know it, because there's so much amazing stuff being done. Some of it's a lot of crap. But there is a lot of crap. There is a lot of crap. And I think therefore we sort of go, it's all crap. Yeah, you can kind of like wade through the crap. There is also just some amazing. Yeah, there's sort of amazing music being made at the moment. But it's also not the music that's necessarily in the top 20. So yeah, that's it is more. Yeah. And I think over the years, I've become a lot. Obviously, as you get older, you understand things, you understand how things work, and the thought the whole thing about the NSA pop, you know, in inverted commas, because it's not necessarily I don't know, any music can be popular, but I'm talking about in a commercial sense. Yeah, it is really is just a big business. You know, it's just about producers, people, finding people, people making money off those people and, and the person themselves becomes the product. And yeah, always freaks me out a bit, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've come, I've come quite jaded of that. And, and not wanting to care. Like, I know, like, commercial radio is literally commercial radio. Like, it's just people, they pay the money to have the songs on. And so I've had a bit of a wake up call, like, for many years, it's like, I just want to be, I want to be on the radio, I want my songs on the radio. And then when I understood it, I was like, no, actually, I want my songs on community radio, because that's where the relationships are. And that's where your people care about the songs they're playing. They have a choice about the songs they're playing, you know? Yeah, so that yeah, no, that's it. Yeah, you're so right. Like, I mean, yeah. Also, I think just the way music and how people listen to music is changing. So I'm not even sure anymore, that being getting on the radio isn't necessarily the golden ones. Still space for it. And especially think there's space for community radio, like here in Melbourne, we've got like PBS and triple out there, and they're huge stations, and they're amazing. And you know, to be on one of those stations. I think it's fantastic. But yeah, I don't know, you know, there are so many ways people can access music now that, you know, yeah, I don't know, it's probably one of many ways you can reach an audience, but maybe not sort of the only way. Yeah, it used to feel Yeah, absolutely. Quite, sort of, unless you were on the radio. It was like no one ever heard. You know, you can pay people to put your music on things and they were know, yeah, totally. But I mean, it's the world, isn't it? Yeah. Do you very expensive to be an independent musician, you know? Yeah, that'sthe thing. Isn't it no one tapped me on the shoulder and goes, Hi, here's heap of money to record. Yeah, women? Oh, no, I'll do this and that for you. It's very parenting into the mix. I think it's, and I think that's part of the challenge is, I really believe in my music, I really do. I really think it's pretty good. You know, like, I'm not saying I'm the best out there or anything like that. But I know I can sing. I know I can write I know, I'm making a pretty good record. But when my confidence starts to fall down big time is actually when I start realizing like the costs in like releasing it and releasing it. Well. You know, whether it's paying a publicist or making a video or whatever, yeah. And then when you have children in the mix, it can be really hard to justify those costs when, you know, you've got to buy school uniforms, and CDs in classes and soccer, you know, like, it can seem really self indulgent, that you're really selfish. Yeah. So it's so that's probably where I'm finding myself at the moment a bit like, the confidence in the music is there again, which is so nice, you know? Because obviously, we have times where it's not. Yeah, but it's that kind of this is, this is such an endeavor to embark on. And how can I justify I can totally appreciate that. Like my husband said to me, when I print because I like to print say days and albums, because I think people's people still like to put things in means. I found what I when I used to play a lot of folk festivals, and I found that the seat Yeah, you still needed CDs. So like, yeah, so obviously, they're not gone. Yeah, I don't think they're gone. For them to be gone. Yeah, people are also buying finally again. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. People like a tangible thing, man. Yeah. And I think that the amount of effort that I end the people I'm, like, work with to do my artwork. I think that it deserves a bigger, you know, platform than just a tiny little square on the iPhone or whatever. You know, the actual your actual artwork. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, my husband is like, have you worked here? How many? So I should preface this, my husband's a financial planner, right? We can be really handy are really annoying. We could not be different worlds, honestly. So yeah, it's like, how many CDs do you have to sell to be able to make your money back? I'm just like, I am not thinking about this. I'm thinking about creating my music and giving it to the world. That is, I know, thinking about and I remember like me with my like pea size, math brain. first EP and sort of trying to do the maths and in the arm, like I can't do the bloody maths, I'm just going to do it like, yeah. And, you know, probably to be honest, years later, having a few boxes of CDs still stashed under a bit. Think it's the same for everybody. It's always a boxer CD so. Now I guess that this topic is sort of leading into something that I love to talk to moms about. And it sounds nasty when I say I love to talk to you about your mom guilt. But I find it such a fascinating topic. Yeah, we put ourselves aside like literally what we've just been talking about, like, we feel like we have to justify ourselves because you know, that money could be paid for the school fees, or could be for the groceries, you know, how how do you sort of approach that mom guilt thing? First of all, for years, I really resisted the term. And even with credit, I'd be like, Well, I don't have no guilt. Good on me. I don't believe in it. It's bullshit, and I don't have it. And then in the last few years, like of course I have, I experienced guilt as a human being and part of that is around my mothering. So yes, technically, I experienced mother guilt. I experience it often around time. So even though my kids are a lot older, my daughter in particular, she really misses me when I do things. And in many ways that's very sweet. And in other ways, it's really had, um, I can be like, you know, spending a fair amount of time and energy on my art, which I think is really fair, because I also give a lot of energy to other people. And she'll actually like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, maybe I was at the studio all day and all night and didn't get home like, and I try my best to like, you know, communicate that in advance that maybe once or twice where like, because they're not home like, you know Dad's home. So it's not like they're home alone. But that can be a real, like, she can be really upset with me that the next day was just like, I didn't know, I didn't know you would be out too late and well, and I feel really bad around that stuff. So I'm trying to get trying to get better at like, not changing what I do, because I think it's really reasonable that I'm sometimes busy doing stuff that almost I think I could, yeah, so I can experience guilt around that, kind of like the time away that it can be. And like I said before, I don't even know if it's guilt, but it's maybe like the justification around like, the financial side of things. Like I think the reality is, like, we sort of, we grew up in a world where the idea of being a musician, so 2025 years ago, it was like, Well, you just get good, and then you meet the right people, and then you get signed to a contract, and they'll give you lots of money, and you'll make records, and actually realizing that happens to such a small percentage of including musicians who we would consider to be quite big and successful. Like, they're still doing it in a very different way, I have friends who I would consider like, on paper to be much more successful than I am as musicians, and they're still working other jobs or, you know, looking for funding for certain things, you know, so it's a very, most of us not doing it that way. And the reality that I'm sort of facing at the moment, really, with this album that I'm making is that it's costing quite a bit to make. So not only am I not making money, at the moment, I'm actually spending money to make my own art, that's not a job. It's not like it's when you think about what a job, you go to work, and you get paid. I'm going I'm I'm doing a lot of work. And also forking out money. So so the whole kind of, what am I actually doing? And why am I doing it can kind of creep in sometimes because it's not if you're if you know, I call it work, I call it like, you know, I'm an artist, and I'm working and I'm this is my project. But if I'm really honest, right now, it's sort of not work. It's, it's not bringing in, it's not bringing home the bacon. So I think the guilt can then arise when because we live in a capitalist society, where we value money. So I find it much easier, even now, even after all these years, it's much easier for me emotionally, to ask, for instance, for someone to babysit my kids, because I'm teaching because teaching brings home money. And so there's like, this is the most important thing in the world that we all need to do, we all need to make money, because that's the society we live in. And I need to go and make that money. So I feel quite justified. There's that word again, in getting help with the kids because we've got to make that money. But then I really can struggle with the same kind of asking for help or reprioritizing things to say, like make this record because it's not bringing in the money. And I think that comes down to Yeah, like we live in a society that still doesn't value things. Paying. So I trying to really, really kind of remind myself that this is an important expression of who I am. And that's why I have to give it time, and maybe that's why I even have to give up. You know, money. Because, yeah, it's I don't know, I hate talking about money, it makes everyone feel really uncomfortable. But I think it's also really important. It's a huge part of it can be a very big barrier to making art. And, yeah, when you have a family, it can be a barrier that you put on yourself because it just doesn't feel kind of right. But I'm really sort of trying to lean into the feeling that I have that for me at the moment. It is right and it is okay. But yeah, so I think it's really interesting, I think, yeah, how what we value in this society still often comes down to like, how much money you make from it. But why not just think of all the great artists you know, like, I mean, it's such a it's such a cliched example. that Van Gogh, you know, didn't make any money and we all now know that he's just the most brilliant artist. So just trying to like remember that this art is important and to try and not feel that guilt, whether it's the financial guilt or the time away guilt, which is a big one that I tend to feel. Well, the other the other guilt that I can sometimes feel is when I'm, and I'm sure a lot of parents might relate to this is when I really go for it, like I'm diving into a really creative space, whether it's just like, oh my god, like these songs are just churning within me or like I've booked out a few days in the studio, I'm just going for it, I'm the the first thing to kind of fall apart is just all the shit at home like dishes, washing, yep, eating healthy food. And again, I think that's a very sexy thing to talk about, like it's pretty boring and unglamorous. But part of our job as parents, I guess, is to kind of keep on top of some of that stuff. And I'm very, very aware that I have a partner who does more than 50% of that stuff. So I really can't complain. Especially, you know, I speak to a lot of females with male partners and, and find out that even though it's 2022, they still seem to seem to take on a huge percentage of that, and I know that I actually don't so I'm very, very fortunate. However, yeah, I can still feel like when I'm really kind of diving into some artistic spaces, mentally or emotionally, the house just turns to absolute shit. And, and that can actually bring up a bit of guilt for me too. Like, well, we're eating takeaway again, because I don't have time to cook because I've written five songs. Yeah. Yeah, so that's just another aspect of mom guilt that I definitely feel and I try to be okay with. exists, and we just have to, like, kind of know that it exists and acknowledge it. Like, I'm feeling guilty right now. Why is that reasonable? Am I being too hard on myself? Actually, it's, it's really fine that I've done those things, and it's fine. And then, you know, the, the other thing we've got to remember is occasionally guilt is healthy, and it is telling us something. Yeah, maybe I'm feeling mom guilt, because I actually haven't spoken to my kids for days. And I need to fix that, you know, like, so actually, like, might Yeah, I just try to be aware of how I feel, and then kind of sit with it, and then work through whether it's like, you know, a feeling that I need to kind of listen to or a feeling that I can sort of go that that's just like your kind of inner critic getting pretty loud in your head. Yeah, it can really your inner critic has one or two important things to say as well. So just knowing you is unhealthy, and when it might actually be just telling you something that you better like, come on. Yeah, no, that is the fourth time this week. They've beaten junk. So maybe it's really important tomorrow to prioritize some vegetables. You know what I mean? Like, so? Absolutely. I think yeah, I think you're right, I think you can definitely serve a purpose. It's definitely not a place. Yeah. But then when it turns into this, and I, whenever I say, ma'am, you I do the air quotes, because I feel like it's just the term has been constructed by a new social media hashtag, you know, it's this theme. This this plan, and, and that's why I hate saying it, but I feel like it's when I say, Do you feel guilty? That sounds really creepy. You know? You're not really, I think I would love to live in a world where the term mum guilt is just not a thing. And if we're gonna have anything, it's parent guilt. And I don't even think parent guilt should be a thing, but at least that crosses genders and roles, you know, like, why, for instance, because I'm a woman should I feel really bad about, you know, the dishes piling up and you know, an unhealthy dinner. If, like, you know, a male parent really doesn't. Now I'm not saying they don't. And I'm not saying it's that simple. But yeah, like, what is it about? Like, why have we been conditioned to kind of carry that burden or that guilt? Yeah, so yeah, if we, if we have to feel guilty. Can we all please feel guilty together? It's just on the women. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we'll see. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? over last year, I did a couple of Father's Day episodes, especially ones where I chatted to dads about and it's it's a different kind of guilt. Yeah, they certainly feel it. But just, I think they're not expected to feel I think that's the difference. We're the ones who are supposed to wear it. Yeah, yeah, totally. And even like, I'm, like I said before, like, we've sort of really set our lives up, in a way, you know, in our family where I guess we don't necessarily play those traditional gender roles. Like, at the moment, I work more than my husband, like an extra day, he does all the washing, because I'm really bad at it. I don't know, he's actually much better at like remembering the admin sort of stuff around, you know, our that notice needs to be handed in. And we've got to pay that, you know, I'm pretty bad at all of that. So even though I live in a relationship that has really kind of, we've really intentionally tried to not just play those roles that can fall on you, because you are male, or female or whatever. Even within that year, I think I experienced more of the emotional kind of guilt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll ask him and find out that. Maybe, yeah, maybe. So even if within your kind of nucleus family, you've got something really going on. That's pretty kind of countercultural, or whatever. We still are in a society that puts pressure on women and mothers to do it all and be at all. Yeah. And so yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. I'm not feeling guilty about the parenting and I'm really focusing on the parenting and, you know, doing great there, then I sort of start to feel a bit guilty about, oh, I'm not really doing any art or singing. So like, it's a little. A little sometimes that's just a load of crap. Whoever said that. He was the first person that said that should just because it mean, you can't you can, I heard someone say you can do it all. But you can't do it all at the same time. You know, like you go through phases in your life where, you know, your children are young. So you're focusing on your children, then you do your art, like, you can't, you can't do it all, you physically cannot do it all and also, mentally and in your heart. You can't do it all because you're torn all over the place. You know, totally. I also think I think just the way my brain works is I'm not very good at multitasking. So I think those people like I'm really good at like, diving in deep. So if I'm so I'm writing today, I'm probably just long writing. And if I'm just like, all in with like, hey, it's my day off, and I'm going to clean the house and I'm going to cook a really nice dinner and I'm going to pick my daughter up from school and we're going to go out for a milkshake, then I'm going to do that really, really well to not very good at trying to do both of those things at once. Yeah, I've always said yeah, you can do it all if you want to do it all pretty badly. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, you spread yourself so thin that nothing gets done. I don't wanna say well, but to the way that you probably want it to be done. You know? Yeah. Nice myth, isn't it? It's an urban myth. So going back to your your music and your identity, how you see yourself as a mother and as a musician and an artist, is it really important to you that your children's see, and I don't want to say I'm putting it in quotes, again, that you're just a mom, because you're never just a mom, that you are contributing to the world. Your your voice is being heard what you're saying is a value. Is that something that is important to you? Yeah, I think it's extremely important to me, both of my children in very different ways, obviously, showing to me that they're very creative people. And so I we really want to nurture that in them. Like my son is an amazing writer, like really incredible writer. My daughter is a natural dancer. And actually, funnily enough, I think she's also a really good singer, too. I have to like, listen out when she doesn't know I'm hearing it. Because I'm a singer. Yeah, there's some stuff there that we'll probably have to unpack that one day because yeah, she's a really great singer. When she was really little, I'd hear her in her room, listening to music, but harmonizing Oh, what? Oh, okay. Um, but she's pretty. She's done it a bit in the past in the last few years, like, if I'm like, Hey, John is seeing this, she's actually pretty reluctant. And that's fine. Like, I'm so not gonna push that. But I think she does have some natural talent there. Anyway, they're both really creative. And I think that's so beautiful. And so I would hate to be kind of creating an environment where they don't see that that's a really normal thing that you would want to foster their dad to. He's very creative. He he like, he wouldn't call himself a professional musician, but he loves music, and he plays in the past. He hasn't done it for a while, but he used to do like, some street art. He's always building things, you know, I'll say something like, oh, we need a box to plant some daffodils in and literally the next day. He's just found some wood and made a box. So and yes, he's a good visual artist. So pink growing up. I hope seeing that art is something that nourishes you. And, and yeah, I hope I hope I'm not I hope I'm modeling to them that I really love music, I guess the one worry I have is that they might see all the stress behind it. Yeah, I think they Yeah, so I know, it's really important to me that they know that creativity in whatever way or shape, you know, like, it doesn't have to be music. But creativity is something to be that we should honor and chat and spend time on. And that doesn't have to make you money. And if you make your living, you know, my son grows up one day to be a writer, my daughter grows up Monday to be a dancer. Wow, how amazing. But that's not even what I mean. It's it's about expression and about, you know how happy they are actually, when they do those things. And actually, I think when they see me when you strip away or they're like, I'm trying to be an independent music in the world, and I'm applying for funding, and I'm very, very strict like that when they actually see me like sit at the piano and just play and just seeing this seeing me really in my most pure kind of happy state. And they see that all the time. Yeah. So. So I think I'm more I'm hope that I'm modeling to them that in whatever way it looks like for you. And it can change as you change that creativity is just a really important thing to nurture within yourself. Because I think everyone is creative. Actually. Everyone. Yeah, but not all of them have been taught that that's okay. Or it's worth fostering or looking after? Yeah, I think. And maybe this is, I think, based on my experience with some people I've met along the way that a lot of angry people I know, are people who are not allowing themselves to be very creative and switch somewhere. And they just sort of hate everyone. And I really think that if you are if you allow yourself to, you know, yeah. Be creative. However, that is. I think you just yeah, like it's a bit cliche, but you're sort of tending to your soul a little bit. And then I think you just live in the world in a more well rounded, happy away. Yeah. So yeah, put that so well. Thank you. Very important to us, actually, as a family that we yeah, we do it and therefore hopefully, they just naturally do it, too. Yeah, that's it. Like like yourself growing up in your family, you saw that that is just part of a normal, everyday existence. This is not something that's out of the ordinary. You maybe didn't realize that till later. But, you know, this is a perfectly acceptable way to live your life like you don't have to be afraid of this. Yeah. And there have been times you know, when like, the kids were little aware, I wasn't spending heaps of time on music, but I actually was always being creative. So when I wasn't making music, I was I was writing the scenes. And when I wasn't writing scenes, I was like, bought a sewing machine. And I was trying to sew think I wasn't very good. But like I was sewing. Yeah, quarter like gardening now for me is a big one, like, so it's also like music is the thing that I come back to because I think, I don't know. It's like, it's in my DNA. It's who I am. And it's how I express myself in the world. But also just there are so yeah, showing them that there's just so many ways to be creative. Yeah, they can be small. They don't have to be big. Yeah, that's it and they don't have to be for anybody else. And they don't have to be clever monetary value placed on the me that they can be something. It's something for yourself, you know, so important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. Best Use of my garden and losses, concert was born? Can you share with us what you might have coming up? You mentioned about your album that you're working on? Yeah. Have you got? And also have you got? I mean, I guess shows us starting up again in the world have you got anything you want to share that you've got coming up? Oh, so that Yeah, so the big, big one for me at the moment is the album that I've been making. And it's been a really long labor of love, like I always knew it would take time. But then right in the middle of it, we had a two year pandemic, which has had so many impacts a, it has impacts on time, because you can't like get to the studio. And then the other thing, like we've talked, we've talked about money a little bit today. But one of the things I do as a singer is, you know, when I do that backing vocals gig or I go on tour with that person on BBS, or I do that session work, that all generally gets generated back into the art that I make. So I lost all of that work. So then so so it's not just the time factor has slowed the record down, but it's actually the the income coming in to generate back into it slowed down as well. So COVID has really impacted it in a really huge way. However, we're really close to finish, like we finished recording the music, we're now mixing it and mastering it. And the hope was to release it at the start of this year. And now it's like we're going to release it towards the end of this year. And again, like you can have a plan. I don't know, I'm actually feeling really good about that. Now, I'd like you to have said right at the start, like, you've got time, you don't need to rush. Yeah. And I, I had a bit of an opportunity last year where I did something on TV. And so I was like, right, I've got to release it now because I got to ride that wave I'm gonna work out and I was like, Oh, I really disheartened by that. But in hindsight, it would have been rushed. And it actually wouldn't have been very good. And, and now I feel really good about sort of almost mapping out, you know, I don't know, like a six month plan and, you know, sharing the music, my music with the world really well and properly. So I don't have any gigs booked at the moment, because I'm super focused on the album. And what like, you know, as much as I hate to say it, social media plays a really big role in building my audience. So like, if anyone listening to this wants to follow me on the socials that would really be amazing. Or even sign up to my mailing list. Yeah, yeah, definitely put all the links, I'll put all the links in for people there. Cool. That would be really great. You know, that is sort of these days, I guess how we reach to a certain extent, at least, our audience, and of course, I would like to be gigging again. But I'm also really pacing myself, I want to do things well. Yeah. I don't want to just be throwing things together and quickly hopping back on stage. So we yeah, we will definitely be playing some shows when the album comes out, or there's single release or whatever. But yeah, choosing to take my time choosing to remember. Yeah, that I've got time. Yeah, that's what I think I think we can all take something from that, that it's, you know, we have got time. We don't have to rush. It's not a race and not to do things at our own pace. Yeah, totally. And obviously, the flip side to that is like, sometimes you need to give yourself a deadline. Otherwise, maybe I'll just be doing this for the next 10 years. So I know the deadline for me is by the end of this year, but what that looks like I still don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the main thing and yeah, maybe yeah, if people find me on social media, then yeah, if a gig pops up, and sometimes I'm doing gigs for other people, you know, like, I might be backing vocals for someone and I can share that as well. Yeah, but at the moment, I'm actually yeah, just tucked away doing all the behind the scenes work. Yeah, all the really hard work. Oh, my God, I know, right? Jumping on stage at the NCAA. Put me in front of like 1000 people or 2000 people and tell me to sing no problem. Put me in a room with like two people where I'm like asking for funding and I'll be days before Yeah. And that's the thing too, like, unless you're in that musician, where Old, or even the artists will, all you see is that in result, all we see is that in product, so you don't understand all the stuff that goes in behind the scenes to make that product, you know? True and like, you know, I think I think I read it somewhere that way, often comparing our kind of, like, we know what we're doing behind the scenes. So we know how hard it is and how messy it is and how not not ready it is yet we can get that to like what everyone else's end product that they're showing online is, and I think it's we're gonna do that too. Like, eventually, when I released this album, it's probably going to look quite nice and shiny and like, hey, look, but like, yeah, we're hearing the journey, you know, to the destination of others. And that's not a very smart thing to do. Probably not very helpful. Your, your album journey sounds like mine, mine is just taking forever. And I don't care because I hate sitting. I hate setting deadlines, because I hate that pressure. Because you know, life happens and you have children. And you know, you can't just go by, I have to do this for my 14 year old having a breakdown, like Italy's life, and it's so good. So I'm working with these producers who are overseas, and they just only because we have nothing here and that Gambia we don't have access to any sort of recording studios or anything. And again, I'm not going to tell you I know this is the world now. You know, it's amazing. And sorry, I'm just gonna blog for a sec. But yeah, they're in Spain and Argentina. So I basically send them a video of what I want, I bang out the chords on my old Casio and say, this is the idea I've got, then they send back their idea made on computer instruments. And always I say yes, that's amazing, because it always is. And so then they, they organize the musicians to play it properly. Then they send it back and I do my vocals and then they mix it. So they're doing everything apart from mastering it. So it's just like, and I can just sit here in my little room in the middle of nowhere. And this album and I'm, it's so wonderful. I think, you know, there's so much stuff around technology that can bother me and just, and then I hear a story like that. And I'm so excited. I'm like, that's now a possibility. You're working with producers saying, you know, and me years ago, to know that this was coming that this was possible, I would never have believed it. You know, I always had this idea that I live in this little town. I didn't I never wanted to leave my little town because I love it. You know, I was born here. I've got my kids here. Even Adelaide, it's only five hours away, or Melbourne five hours away. But it's a different world. So I've never wanted to pick up and go right, I'm gonna go there and make my career. It's like, No, I want to do it in my, in my own terms in my own way. And it's like, finally the time has come. I can do it. You know. I love that. Yeah. bloom where you're planted, you know? Yes. You know, other people might have a completely different, you know, they do want to move and they want. And that's great. But I agree like, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to. That's the cool thing about being an artist. You can forge your own way. There's actually no real like, we think there's a way you've got to do it. But then when you start to talk people, everyone's winging it. Yeah. That's for some people that's moving overseas for other people. It's so not that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really exciting. Well, I can't wait to hear it. You'll be waiting a bit longer. I know these things take time. Okay, with that, I think yeah, and that's thing too, if you if you're the sort of person that can be settled and go, Okay, when it's ready, that's fine. You can you can do this. But if you're the sort of person it's like, I have to do I have to get done. You could not do this. You'd be off to wherever to record but you know, that's the great thing, too. We're all so different. And that's what makes the world go yeah, we're all doing the same thing. Today, Ms. It's just been such a joy chatting with you. I really loved it. Thank you so much. You're so lovely to talk to me about music and I love talking about my kids. So it's a pretty it's a pretty nice thing to do to sit down and have a chat with you. Yeah, no, thanks. It's been great. I've loved it. Always good. Always good to get a bit of Beatles chat in there somewhere. Anytime, Ill have to tell you my Paul McCartney story another time. Oh, okay. All right, To be continued. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review Are you following or subscribing to the podcast? Or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested? If you or someone you know who'd like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us by the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Sarah Hens Australian blogger S3 Ep93 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts My guest this week is Sarah Hens, Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in NSW Australia, and a mum of 1. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life, Sarah was compelled to record her own experience with preeclampsia , eclampsia and birth trauma . She used wriiting as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget (at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness), but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially Sarah's words were only for herself, and she didn't expect to share it, however as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience she could help others, and particularly share a voice in Australia. She also shares other's through her blog The Pesky Placenta Society. ***Please be aware this episode conains a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, PND, PTSD and a near death medical episode*** Sarah - Website / Instagram / Sarah's pre ecampsia story Podcast - instagram / website Downtown Abbey episode If today’s episode is triggering for you in any way I encourage you to seek help from those around you, medical professionals or from resources on line. I have compiled a list of great international resources here Music used with permission from Alemjo my new age and ambient music trio. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum podcast, where I Alison Newman, a singer songwriter, and Ozzy mum of two enjoys honest and inspiring conversations with artists and creators about the joys and issues they've encountered. While trying to be a mum and continue to create. You'll hear themes like the mental juggle, changes in identity, how their work has been influenced by motherhood, mum guilt, cultural norms, and we also stray into territory such as the patriarchy, feminism, and capitalism. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the shownotes along with a link to the music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our supportive and lively community on Instagram. I'll always put a trigger warning if we discuss sensitive topics on the podcast. But if at any time you're concerned about your mental health, I urge you to talk to those around you reach out to health professionals, or seek out resources online, I've compiled a list of international resources which can be accessed on the podcast landing page, Alison Newman dotnet slash podcast, the art of being a mom we'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land and water, which this podcast is recorded on as being the Bondic people in the barren region of South Australia. I'm working on land that was never seen it. And welcome to the podcast. It's so lovely to have you here for wherever you are around the world. Want to take this opportunity to remind you to subscribe to my weekly email. You'll be the first to hear about the upcoming episodes, who's on next week, and some other little gifts and discounts and other things that I'd like to share. Just head to the webpage Alison newman.net/podcast and you'll scroll down and see the signup sheet. This week. My guest is Sarah hens. Sarah is a blogger from the Blue Mountains in Sydney, New South Wales, and she's a mom of one. Sarah has a background as a social worker and has spent many years working in the department for Child Protection. Following a pregnancy that almost claimed her life Sara was compelled to record her own experiences with preeclampsia, preeclampsia and a tremendous birth trauma. She used her writing as a way to not only record what happened so she wouldn't forget at times being in the ICU and coming in and out of consciousness, but to work through her experience and to make sense of it. Initially, Sarah's words were only meant for herself. She didn't expect to share it. However, as time went on, she found that through sharing her own experience, she could help others and particularly share a voice from Australia. She also now shares other's stories through her blog that pesky placenta society. Please be aware this episode is quite full on. It does contain a lot of discussion around pregnancy and birth trauma, perinatal trauma, postnatal depression, PTSD, and a near death medical experience. I really appreciate Sara's openness and honesty in sharing in today's episode. Thanks so much for coming on. Sarah. It's lovely to meet you today. Thanks for having me. That's absolute pleasure. And I I have heard that this is your first podcast so it's exciting to have you all. Oh, don't be nervous. We just pretend it's you and me. We're just having a fun chat. With like literally 1000s of people listening. Not that many maybe. So good. So good fun. So we're about to finish Australia. I am on Derek country in the Blue Mountains in South Wales beautiful Yeah, yes. It's very lovely. I've been from Derek country my whole life so I was on a different different part in the Hawkesbury in the mountains gal. Beautiful I've never been a bit I've seen plenty of photos and yeah you neither is it the three sisters and we've got 45 minutes from there so I'm not going to lower like pretty much the first bit of the ego call Mountain is where it is and then there's lots more mountain often Yeah, right i Oh awesome. Oh lovely. That sounds like a nice place to live. So are you a fairway from Sydney? Where you are then? All the closer Yeah. Oh, that's good. Yeah. Do you go into Sydney much you have to go in? Often I was it was weird. So obviously with COVID we're all stuck you know for ages but I went to the opera house for two different shows like three weeks taught and I haven't been there for so long. I went there twice in one month so that was pretty good. I do love a city day because I don't really there I find the city very interesting and like you Yeah, I couldn't imagine living in a city. I mean, I've I mean Adelaide and and if you've ever been to Adelaide, but that's not exactly a proper city. It's like a bit country town. Basically, everyone chases Adelaide because it's yeah, it's easy to drive in. So it's not really a city. Fucking like a map of Sydney. No one knew literally, was the first place that any one job like anything. Yeah, yeah, they weren't, weren't considering the future when they made Sydney. Really were they, too but yeah, that's nice for a visit. I haven't been there for a long time. But yeah, nice for trip. But I would hate to live in a place like that. I just, it's not my thing. I like a bit of space around me. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, so you by trade, a social worker? When did you first get into that sort of thing? Was it something you're always interested in? Being when you're growing up? Not professionally, I think I have been like a little social worker from the beginning. My mom actually said years like after I decided to actually study it. She was like, I knew you were going to be that because I was just always that person that like the kids at school that are having my mom and dad were having issues or, you know, they'd always come and find me and like be crying in the bathroom. So via without me for a long time, but actually going into it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was never one of those people that was like, Yes, I'm going to be a doctor or a teacher. And then I remember when I was looking at different degrees, I thought, Okay, this sounds pretty broad. Like, I feel like I could make this work in lots of different areas. And then as I did my best placement was with in child protection. And I love that, which sounds weird, because it doesn't sound like a sort of job you should love. You know, actually, I can relate to that, because I work on the other side of it in early childhood education. Yeah, I have actually great admiration for what you guys do on the other side, I could definitely not do it myself. So yeah. It's definitely a job that makes or breaks you for sure. Sometimes you're not really sure where it's going. But I did my placement there. Did another placement overseas. And I thought, yeah, this is a job that I want to do. So I was there for nearly six years before I went on that week. Actually resigned my position a couple of months ago, because the circumstances surrounding my birth left me with some more pressure issues that it's no surprise child protection does not help your blood pressure. Stay down. Yes, sort of gave that out recently, which feels still, it doesn't feel real. Like I still can't believe I'm not going back. But yeah, social work can take me anywhere. So I know that I have heaps of options and lots of experience now. So I'm excited to see where I am. Yeah, not good on yeah, like I said, I think what you guys do on that other side, oh, my god, like I, I quit, I was working in a law firm, just before I decided to completely change and go into child childcare and early childhood education because I was finding out things about things happening in my town that I didn't want to know about. Like, I'm, I'm a very sensitive person, and I find it hard not to take on other people's emotions and situations and experiences. So you know, I'd be sitting there typing, affidavits of people who are coming through the court system for, for doing horrible things to children and young people. And I thought I can't I can't keep doing this. And I said to my husband, I need to I need to help the children. Like in my mind, it was like help the children he's like, but you are helping the children and you're putting their perpetrators to court, you're contributing to that process. Like no, but I need to have my hands on the children like I just had this feeling I needed to be able to hold the children and you know, pick up stuff and reports and do that sort of stuff rather than, you know, the real hardcore stuff, which I'm just not cut out for at all. Because I mean, I honestly like I look at people that are in education, and I just think you have the patience of a saint. I'll protect the kids but after them skills, I think knowing where you fit is so important because you know, otherwise you're just forcing a job you hate and then if you think it's really cool perspective to early childhood, like most people just kind of love little kids and love working with them but I think bring a bit of an extra skill to it. Kind of having seen We're helping kids don't? Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, it really, it really makes your days so much more focused and more productive. Because a lot of people have an idea that childcare and I mean, it kindy at the moment is literally sitting on the floor playing with kids all day. Like, they think it's just some, like fancy way out of doing nothing. And so oh my gosh, like, no, like, people come in and do work experience or the they do their placement and they just go oh, it's not what I thought it was gonna be like, it is really demanding work and physically but also emotionally and mentally. You know, you're focusing on these little people and it's not just, I don't know, it's, it's such a broad scope of what you're looking at, for this child. Like this do the same job as you I'm just hearing the amount of just the admin side of it. Yeah, that's writing individualized notes for each child. And every day I'm gonna be like, favorite anything otherwise apathetic parent ever. Did you have lunch? Great, great. Good. Like I'm, I'm in awe of people that can keep up with that. Like, it's just not what I'm seeing, you know, she makes all her little activities and stuff you're taking and there's so much passion that goes into teaching kids question that I do not have. Very impressed. It's interesting how it all fits together, isn't it? How we will play a little cards and yeah, now good Anya, I really have a lot of admiration for you guys story. I first discovered you on Instagram, with your very awesome named account the pesky placenta society, which is brilliant. Can you tell me how you came up with that day? So it was it was not my first one. I was actually thinking today. I will come with the page like and I looked at some of the graphics I did in the beginning. Ugly. I had. Yeah, I had another name initially. And that was like part of one of my favorite quotes, which I still love. But you know, it wasn't mine. And I think as the space started to grow, and you know, people actually seem to care about what I was. I thought, No, I want to I want to move forward as something that's just me. And from the beginning of my pregnancy, I had the anterior placenta, which is at the front, so I would always call it pecky. Because it meant that I couldn't feel as much movement. I had so many trips to the hospital being like, oh, my gosh, and then the second thing had gone who'd be like, Connie told my Microcenter pesky from from day one. But then I ended up diagnosed with preeclampsia. So it became like, super speed as pesky as it can be. And I think that having a I was worrying people would think I was making light of it, that sometimes I do, like, that's just how I am. And I think it's quite the and it's weird. And that's, that's me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there are so many people out there that not just for vanity reasons, there's so many issues you can have with your placenta. It's just a fun little way of honoring the journey. Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's really cool. Because I think, I mean, there's so many people out there, everyone's got a different way of dealing with or processing issues and an account that might be really clinical and crisp and coming at it from a, you know, medical area, whatever, that might not see everybody, you know, like I I sort of have a joke when I talk about my placenta, that it's been pesky as well. It's sort of had a I don't know what the official name is. I've been trying to find it but it basically the blood flow was compromised from about 28 weeks. So then that meant that the baby didn't develop. And basically he stopped growing was dental insufficiency. Placental insufficiency. Yeah. So I sort of make a joke about that myself because my son when he was born, he was four pound 14. But he was completely formed, you know, he had his lungs were formed, everything was developed. He was all there. But he was just really tiny. He had no fat on him. He come out like looking like a skeleton rabbit. Like these tiny things, and you could see his diaphragm like when he was breathing like you could see every little muscle and everything inside him. So when people were still here quite little now. And they'll say, oh, yeah, he's a little little tack here. And I'll just say, oh, yeah, my plus Cena kind of stuff working. You know, I say it is a bit of a joke like. So yeah, I can appreciate where you're coming from. I mean, it's good. I think it's good to share in that way do you want to share a little bit more about that experience for you finding out you had that anterior placenta and sort of how things progressed from that point? Yeah, so um, well, I looking back now I had high blood pressure from like the beginning of my pregnancy, because life was quite stressful, and I got pregnant and stayed. So for probably about half the pregnancy to similar things happening in life. So I was pretty frequently stuck in hospital for the blood pressure profiles, or they can be there for like three or four hours and check it. So I was used to that. And preeclampsia is something that like, it was mentioned when I booked in, because they run through the symptoms, just keep an eye out for these. But I didn't, they never really went through what it was what would happen like, anything like that. So I knew it existed, I knew it was serious, I knew I needed to look out for it. And I, on the anxious side of the spectrum. I was constantly worried. I mean, really, pregnancy just amplifies any mental health that you have what in my experience. So I was constantly, you know, panicking, that I was gonna get sick or something. And all that kind of thing. And then when I started to actually get symptoms, you know, I was going, Oh, my gosh, like, am I just making a big deal out of this? Because I'm anxious, or is this really a thing and, you know, every appointment, I've run all this stuff by the obese, and I wasn't seeing the same person consistently, because I was just booked into public hospital. And towards the end of the pregnancy, I stepped on weight really fast, which is another symptom because you start to swell, and you get the edema and all that. But the conversation sort of turned to like trying to make me go to an obesity clinic instead. And this is not the same, like, I know what's healthy and what's not. And I wasn't in like the peak of fitness. When I got pregnant, I'll be the first one to acknowledge that this was different, like it was just so quick. And I had all these other things. Like in all the great times the symptoms, there was only one or I didn't in the end. And so I just didn't feel like I was being taken seriously. And I went to a different hospital, which has been more focused on women's health. And they're the high risk hospital for a huge geographical area. And so I went in and I was diagnosed that day. And I was there for about a week. My blood pressure still is an extreme, like, every doctor I see. They're like, that's not possible. And then my son was born rather than 35 Lakes, I got very sick very quickly and died. And I actually went into the realm of fantasy, which is where you start to see ease. So that happened literally a few minutes after they came and checked me. So the timing was all just perfect. And yeah, so it was all very fast and scary. And and yeah, just crazy. And I think it took me a long time to reassess what had happened. But that sort of then led me to this world of perinatal trauma and the online space has been so helpful, remain silent, not anyone literally in my personal life who's had a similar story. Lots of people like to tell you, they know how you feel when they actually do it. Yeah. And it's always well mannered, but it's not the same. And so, yes, trauma, you own that, but it's not the same. And so I think finding people who could say actually, oh, my gosh, that happened to me. And there's so many intricacies in processing your trauma that I think a lot of people generalize. When you find someone who can be like, No, I had that exact thought like it's just really, it's comforting and it makes you feel like you're not crazy. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like I've been left with lifelong problems like I will be on blood pressure medication till I die. We which is more likely to be from like a heart attack now. And, you know, there's just so many things that preeclampsia makes you vulnerable to forever. So it's, it doesn't end with the birth. I think for some people it does, and that's great. But for me, you know, I'm in that sort of tiny categories, people who just another gonna have normal blood pressure. And that's still something I'm cranky on some days. But it's easily manageable. I think it's just another thing that I have to think about now. And you become a parent, like your brain is just going 100 miles an hour as it is, and then you've got to try and remember your own health, which it doesn't come first anymore. So that's what like, I have to have reminders on my phone, like to take a pill and I've never had to do that before, but it's just how my brain works now. Yeah. That's a real, like, brief summary of it. I mean, I have the whole story typed up for people to read on my website. But yeah, sure. Yeah. That's probably the quickest I can summarize what happened. Yeah, that's interesting. You know, this, the preeclampsia, I was the same like people would mentioned. And so yeah, watch out for this wherever. But it was almost like a passing comment. And it wasn't explained that if this did happen, then this this, this would happen. And we'd have to do this, this and this, like, it was just really general. And I think I knew one girl that had to get induced because she had it. But it was like, I didn't really ever understand what it was. And then when you're saying there about, you basically went from preeclampsia to actual preeclampsia. And then it's the thing that now you're dealing with for the rest of your life. I actually didn't know that. So yeah, I'm pleased that you sharing misinformation, because learning suddenly, your clients your side of things is not, I mean, it's not as common like pregnancy as a five to 8% of all pregnancies. So it's like not a lot, but also a lot of when we think of how many pregnancies there are a very small percentage of that. And I think, on paper, I don't think they would have diagnosed me with that, because it sort of started to happen as they were delivering him. So I think they managed to sort of stop it in time, but I did. So it was like my bottom haul, started seizing change. It was like I was trying to do setups like that I couldn't control it. But that's not like talks about the only thing I knew was there's like an episode of Downton Abbey where one of the characters dies from eclampsia. thing that we're talking about? So like it's really not like preeclampsia in and of itself isn't talked about. But then for the people who have that next step. It classier like it's even more quiet. So I try to be as honest as I can just because people need that, like, I need your help. I'm gonna do this. Yeah, I'm very open book. Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's wonderful. It's wonderful. I often say that. It's like, the people that are capable of sharing. It's not like, it's not like yeesh you've obliged to do it, or you have to do it. But it's good. If you can do it for the people that can't share necessarily. So I love that you can do it. And yeah, thank you for doing just on that. Was that. Was that Sybil? Did she have preeclampsia? Yeah, yes. Yeah. So they, I watched the episode. After, I think my son was a few months old. I was watching through it again. And I was like, okay, like, I can do this. But oh my gosh, like the whole I just cried and cried the whole way through. Because I think I have these moments where, like, I just realized, oh, man, I'm gonna cry now. I just realized how close I was like, and that's such a scary thought and watching it, you know, in a big show with all these famous people, like it was just a bit surreal kind of going, Oh, my gosh, that was me. I mean, obviously, in the show, she passes away, and there's a lot of people that do and, and I was so close to that. And so I think the feeling of getting that close, and then coming back is like its whole own category of using being as open as I can about it. Because I know that no matter how stupid I think authority is or how dark it might be, like someone else out there has either had it or is having it right now. And I think that's you gotta have people who can go like, you know, with, you know, crazy, you know, what processing looks like is what trauma does to our brains. Yeah. Trauma is my bread and butter. Like that's what Yeah. And so I know it very intimately on an academic level. I'm personally but then I sort of have these two halves of my brain where, literally, we have two halves. It was sort of like a kid is the emotional side, it's freaking out. And you know, what's happening? I don't know who I am anymore. And then there's the logical brain, my brain like we studied this, we know this. We know what's gonna happen next. Hobbs that we're constantly surprising each other, indicating very well. So he was very strange going through that, like knowing trauma as much as I do. And that's when it's you. All bets are off. Like, it's just totally different when you're the subject of it. So, yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot, a lot of sort of niche stuff, I guess that I can relate to the people. And in the context, like the preeclampsia world, and the perinatal Tron world online is so dominated by the US, which is not a bad thing. Like, they have a lot of people. But I think it's really nice when you can find someone that understands your culture, and your geographical context, and our health system is different. And like all that sort of thing. So I think it's been nice to be able to slot into that space. That was kind of empty. And obviously, there are a lot of survivors and stuff that have accounts, but I think that's more about just their, their life and that kind of thing. Whereas I wanted something that was more open to help people have a space to be like, Oh my gosh, this happened to me, and it sucked. So yeah, I always get very excited when I find other creators. Yeah, for sure. We are literally in comparison to the rest of the world. So I think it's nice that this space is growing in a way that is relatable and accessible to everyone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When did you decide that you wanted to share this with others and create this account and get it out there? When was that sort of, in your mind, I started so writing has always not always, but as an adult, I suppose it's been my outlet. And I've never really thought of myself as an autistic person, I think of myself as a creative person. And in my head, they're different things. So I, I was that 2023. So 10 years ago, I was very chronically disliked mystery illness. So I used writing to kind of express that to people because it's really hard to just like sit and talk environment about what's going on. And I found that to be really helpful just for me to get my thoughts out, but also to be able to give them to other people and be like, This is what I'm trying to say. And so from there, you know, I do a few little topical EcoLog stuff over the years about different social justice issues or, or things like that. And then you know, that kind of stopped his life got busier and, and then when my son was born, and I got really sick, I actually started writing it down just to try and remember what happened because neurologically impaired, but also, so called fentanyl, which is a really heavy duty, because they had to start my C section before the anesthetic studying. So he was like, I'm gonna pump you with as much as I can. So I was really out of it for several hours in and out of consciousness in the ICU. And so when I woke up like in the postnatal ward, I was like, I have no idea what just happened. And it's just in flushes coming back to me, I started to just jot those down, knowing that at some stage, I was going to need to write it out properly, and you know, make it sound nice. And then as I did that, like, I didn't have the intention of publicly sharing it. I think I was going to share it like with some close friends and family and just kind of Yeah, there was so much like, particularly the postpartum period as well, like there's so much that I could have verbalized that I could write about. And so I had planned to share it with some and then a few ladies in my life who are midwives and community nurses that I knew who were were very lovely and cared for me very well. After my son was born, and they were like this is get this would help people like if you share this, it would help someone. Yeah, and I just thought you know what, like, on the off chance that there is one person raised there goes and goes, oh my gosh, like, and has that moment that I had reading all the stories? You know, it's what, like, it's worth the vulnerability is that what you say? And experience could help another person start to heal. And I thought, Okay, I'll just do it. And it was lovely. Like literally the day that I started the account, I got a message from someone on the Central Coast in New South Wales. Oh my gosh, like you're the first person in Australia that I've come across who has had a story that's a bit like mine. And I was just so like, it was just the nicest thing to hear obviously, not that they went through that. I know. What I wanted happens, like so fast. And and that's been, it's really been twofold. Like, it's helped me get a lot of stuff out that I needed to, but it's also helped a lot of people start to do that for themselves. And that's just, yeah, it's been really helpful. For me, I think having something to occupy my mind when you're stuck with, you know, a feed or a nap or whatever it is, like having something I can focus on, and still have that best that's beyond just being a mom like that. That's so important to me in a way that I didn't see coming. Like I expected to just be so in love with motherhood, and then it happened. And I was like, this is not what's in the movies. Yeah. So I think having this has been really like, salvation. For me, I think for my mental health, but just having something to do, like, you know, you just feel so the immobile sometimes as a stay at home parent. Having having an outlet to still create and share and stuff has been essential for me. Yeah, and it's led me to some really lovely people. So that's always a bonus as well. Yeah. And on that. I noticed on your, your web, your web page that you share stories from other mums? Yeah. And did that start to happen fairly quickly? Or is that something that you sort of happened as you went along? Meeting people and stuff. I think that wasn't like, an intention that I have, in the beginning, it sort of organically happened, I think. And not just about like people with preeclampsia. Like, there's so many things that I'm passionate about, like, as a social worker, you care about a lot of things. You know, there's not really a topic that I'm not happy to share. But I just started with, like my sister's story, you know, she had pregnancy loss, and then had my nephew on Christmas Eve, and had a really difficult postpartum period. And so he wrote that up. And, you know, the more I sort of started sharing, the more I thought, there's so many things that are just like, what I went through that someone else is sitting there going like, Okay, I didn't have preeclampsia, but I had a miscarriage, it stopped. So I think I like to keep it fairly open. And I know like, all the advice you get with like social media is assigned a nation stick to it. And it was like, there's too many things. Like, I looked at some other accounts that have these beautiful, like, stains with the colors. And you know, that one's spotty. And that one's got flowers. And I just thought pink, so I thought I might as well be like that with my website. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So I think it's really cool. Like the amount of people who hoo do contact me and go, like, I want to, I don't know where to start, like, so at first, it was just sharing stuff that people had already written out. But now it's kind of at a, you know, guiding people through that. And that's been a real privilege to, you know, sit with someone, well sit with someone online, and kind of help them say what they want to say in a way that fits who they are, and their experience, and just the excitement and the emotion that they have in their story going out there. And, like, it's just so special when someone comes to me and says, like, I've never shared this before, but I really want to, and that's just beautiful. Like, it's a connection that, you know, I've never had in any other way. Yeah, so it's been great. And there's just so many people in my own life that I think like your stories and people need to hear it. Yeah. So I do not have nagged a few people. But it's great for them. Like I love seeing other people have that moment of like, okay, people hear my story, and I take it seriously. And, you know, my story has value. And yes, yes, storytelling is like the ancient form of communication. And I think we lost that a little bit over time. And so I think, sort of stepping back into that has been more emotional than I expected. And just an honor, like I always just feel so privileged when somebody trusts me with that, like, it's a really big responsibility. So I do take it very seriously. Yeah, that's lovely. I think people can sometimes think that what they've got to say isn't a value because they don't hold a status in society, or because they don't have 100,000 followers or, you know, because whatever reason people can sort of, what's that? That? Yeah, they can, they can really diminish the value of the, of what they've got to say, and it's even people that I've had on this on this podcast over the years, they are I'm not creative, I'm not good enough. I'm not whatever it's like, I can see that you are, you know, I'm not telling you, you know, I'm not going to force people, you know, you have to be on the show. And just give people a bit of time to think about it, like to support them. And then people will come back to me and go, actually, yes, I would like to come on, you know, and that's like, yes. Like, I feel like, I want you to see yourself as we see, you know, like, you have so much to add and even someone the other day, just as are wrapping up the episode that like, I hope that was okay, I feel like I, what I've got to say isn't isn't good enough, or isn't big enough. It's like, seriously, like, I like you sit with someone for an hour or an hour and a half. And you just take, like what they've got to say so valuable. Like I just I want people to feel like empowered that they have a space and they have, they have people that will find value in what they have to say, you know, absolutely, people. We are our own worst critics as women. We're taught to believe that we need to be bigger and better than we are. And so I do it myself all the time. Like, I second guessed everything I look at even stuff like my life story, like Medically speaking, I should be dead. Like I survived something that even my specialists couldn't make sense. So, like I know that to be and still understand. Oh, it's not interesting. You know, we played Dan Brown it was actually your, like, you know, your list of things that you talked about on the podcast? Yeah. Yeah. So when I read through that, and there's the whole section on McGill, and I was just like, I mean, I've been reflecting on that so much, because I think I had this realization of like, obviously, I can relate to mom guilt, but it's just this extension of like, woman guilt that I've had my whole life. And, you know, a Carlin's like yeah, I've been a bit obsessed with that idea, since I read that a few weeks ago, and I just thought, oh my gosh, like, so much mental energy goes into being a woman that, then is exacerbated as a mother because there's all these expectations on you. And no, we really have this like, No, I'm not enough of the stuff that I should be in a hole, but I'm too much of stuff. And we have this contradiction that we just sit in all the time. And yeah, like, just my own experience happened. And I still doubt it. Like, I went through, like, medical evidence that it happened, and I still kind of feel maybe I'm just making a big deal. But like, I shouldn't even deal with it. Because that's what it is. And that's the same of any story. Like anything that's happened to you is important and relatable, and I'm trying so hard not to or to challenge I guess that that little voice that I have of like, got to make sure everything's perfect. Why? Yeah, yeah, Little did you know that your email like unleashed this whole war. I'm so pleased. And my work here is done. Exactly. Then I read the rest of your list as I got to my mind. It really did make me think about like, how I where I placed my value as a mom and just as a person. And how much subtle stuff there is out there telling us what we need to be like I'm well and truly good enough for my son and I know that but I still you know, I don't know how many times a day I convinced myself that's not true. Particularly because like my postpartum, I did not like my baby for a solid two months of his life. And that still makes me feel horrible to say out loud. But it's true like I was so like wrecked from everything that happened and separated from him, you know, I didn't get to meet him for 24 hours. But even then my brain just doesn't when other people have to wait more than that, like some people have to wait a week. You trying to justify Yeah, I still didn't meet my babies for 24 hours. And so I think that really affected the way that I make sense of it is that it affected my ability to bond to him, because even though I didn't meet him, like I met him the next day or the next night, and then I was still in the ICU a day or so. And then I was on a different word to him because he was in special care. And like I say, session was so fast that I could barely walk like it was yeah, you know, I find out how long other sections went for. And I think Oh, my God, mine was not that long, like, so it was very rough. And like, physically, I was quite damaged. I mean, nothing was wrong, but it was just super and yeah, so it was, it was a full week, like until we went home. And then, you know, I had this tiny human, and I just look at him and be like, I don't want to feel these things for you. And I don't. And so that was like a whole journey. And I think that really affected how I could view myself as a mom, because in my head, I was like, what sort of doesn't like me, like, what sort of mom doesn't want to spend time with her baby, you know, because we get told this beautiful view of motherhood, which it can be like, I have those feelings now of just joy. And you know, I look at him and I want to eat him. And but when you don't have that, from day one, I think the world sort of wants you to believe that there's something wrong with you. And there was something wrong with me that was completely out of my control. And I needed a lot of help. But that didn't make me a bad mom, you know, I met his needs, and that sort of thing. So I think going into motherhood that way, it really, really made that voice very loud. That told me that I wasn't enough of this. I was too much of that my son doesn't. Like all that kind of thing was so loud for the first little while of his life. And thankfully, you know, therapy and medication has made that voice much more quiet. But it's still there. And I think that's what sucks thing a woman like that voice is always in the back of your head kind of telling you that it's your fault, or you need to do this and you need to Yeah, you haven't done good enough or you haven't done the right thing. Yeah. I think women have the role. We are given the role of making sure everything's great. We get no credit for that. And then if something goes wrong, we get blamed for that. Yes, it's like an impossible task. Isn't it? Like, you're set up to fail right from the start? Yes. Yeah. I even tried to do an experiment last week. I was like, You know what, because I can't be the only one that's done this. I bumped into like a chair, my ankle, like get the chair like and I apologize. Yeah. What? I just apologize for pieces. Like that's how brainwashed I've been to believe that. Everything is my fault just for existing. I was like, You know what, I'm gonna do an experiment in the next 24 hours. I'm going to count how many times I apologize. Not so like stuff because I've actually done wrong, but just as apologies that we make, like, as an instinct. I couldn't keep up not because there was heaps, I just, it's so natural in my brain to be like, I'm so sorry I exist, that I couldn't count them. And I thought that's so sad. Like, it's so sad. My husband doesn't have that problem ever. Like, I've never seen him apologize to a chair. I've seen any man apologize to a chair. So I think like there's so much work for me to do, but it's exhausting that I have to do. And then like trying to do all of this at the same time as being a mom like, oh, yeah, we have a lot on our shoulders and no one you can't see it. It's there. And yeah, I just think the more honest we can be about motherhood the good guy, but I don't think we just need to focus So on the yucky parts, but everyone has yucky parts. And if we pretend that we don't we just, we do such a disservice to each other as women, and as moms by convincing ourselves that we need to be perfect. And, you know, so I am so grateful to have found, I think, a community of people who are all trying to be really honest about the crap, because we're all gonna have it, you know, we'll all have the great times too. But I think we need each other, to be really honest about how hard it can be to transition into parenthood, and then to stay there like, yeah, yeah. And then all those stages that come through, you know, like, it's brought up, and then they change. And it's like, yeah, you're just constantly learning from scratch. And so I think, yeah, I think stay at home parents are like the backbone of society. Podcast, honestly, that that is another group of people I have so much respect for, because I couldn't do it, I literally couldn't do it, I think I have a certain amount of minutes in my day that I can be completely focused on my children. And then I've got to go do something else. Because it's like, my brain just doesn't have the capacity for that. I need that outlet, I need something for me. But I feel like the patriarchy and that system that's been set up, it encourages us to compete against each other, you know, it's pits us against each other, she's doing this, or I can do this, blah, blah, and what you're saying, I totally 100% agree with, like, sharing what's real, sharing the challenges and saying, It's okay, we all have crap times, you know, like, I'm, I'm getting so good. Now, it just, you know, laughing about the fact that my kids can't find their shoes in the morning. Like, it's just, you know, it's we never, ever really sprays morning, and that's what life is. And then also, you know, being kind to myself and going, you're not going to You can't expect this, like TV or Hollywood version of life. You know, I found that really tricky. with mine, having both my boys by never had a spontaneous, like going into labor. So I never got that moment of oh, my waters broken down the street or, you know, like, the on the on the telly. And never, I never had a normal, normal. I'll put that in air quotes, because that's such thing as normal, but a straightforward birth without complications. I've had one that was born in an hour and a half, and one that was born by emergency C section. And you have these images in your mind of what's going to happen when the baby's born, they put it on you, and this happens, and you go home and everything's, it's like, it's bullshit. It's just setting you up for trouble and failure in your mind. Because that's not life. It's not real. So the more we can tell each other, that what is happening to us is normal, and his life and things are gonna go wrong. And things aren't always gonna go the way we expect. And the better, we'll all be, I think, absolutely. You have your dream book. And this is something that actually my therapist, that's me, I think, you know, first session, I was very lucky that I was able to get into see a perinatal trauma therapist who actually knows what she's talking about. And she said, You know, I see a lot of women like me that have bursts that are just horrendous, but I also see a lot of women who have the birth that they wanted, and still were left feeling traumatized by something. And so like, you know, I believe that women can birth and they can do it safely, and they can do it freely. But I also believe there are a lot of us that even if all goes to plan, we're still gonna walk away traumatized, and that's okay. And yeah, I just thought, oh my gosh, you think about like, like, just the baby blues, the hormones and my when my sister was about to have the baby, I said to her, I was like, isn't gonna make sense now. But it will was like those first two weeks, you're going to feel like the world is ending and that it never going to change. But it will like it just will when you hit that sort of two week mark, and you're home and settle down, like, the fog will pass and be able to see everything again. So remember that first time, she was like, What am I done? I don't know what I'm doing, like, everything's wrong, and it's never gonna get better. I was like, I told you this was gonna happen. I was like, it's predictable. And sure enough, within a fortnight, she's like, Oh, this isn't so that. Things like that, where we try and we make this sort of beautiful newborn bottle that. I mean, some people have gone yeah, but a lot of us don't like I feel like more people struggle than not. And, you know, we shouldn't be honest about that. Because otherwise we make parents who just feel like they're broken from day one. Yeah, yeah, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, it sucks because it's like there's something inherent about you that's wrong. And that's had like fighting that and challenging that is It's a lot of mental work and needs to go daily to keep alive. Like, yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's all encompassing. Yes, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. When you said before about not having that sort of the connection with your son a little bit of time, I wanted to say something about that, but I'm not sure how to word it. And I don't want to keep talking about myself, because this isn't my show. But what it is, but you know what I mean, it's not my special episode. So I'm conscious of that. So I might, but I'm sort of trying to lead into it with it. I had an experience where I was because of this the second child emergency C section, I was so and I might be a little bit selfish, but I was thinking, I have to heal, right, my body has been cut open, how many other layers you go through, it's the most invasive surgery you can have. You know, and then I'm not allowed to lift things. I'm not allowed to drive. So I can't you know, I'm physically bound to my home. I couldn't really walk that well. Like, I was still recovering from that. And I thought, No, I'm expected to take care of this baby. And I thought this is bullshit. You know, how is this right? And I was quite, I guess, resentful. Probably the right word. So I found it difficult to sort of be all in, in this happy bubble land of baby because it was like, hang on a second. What about me? Yeah, you know, and then I thought, I can't say that, because it's all about the baby. You know what I mean? Did you? Yeah, I think because my therapist asked me outright, she was like, Do you blame your son for what happened? Like, do you because I was talking about this, like, I don't feel anything like, I know that I'm supposed to be all mushy and love him more than anything. And I don't feel it. And she was like to blame him for getting sick and nearly dying. And I could honestly say, No, what I did blame him for was taking all of that time. And I couldn't focus on healing myself, like that. I felt like every time, you know, I'd need to do something. And not just like, medical appointments, because I don't want to have appointments. So appointment to do for the first two weeks of his life. So obviously, I had to go to those. But every time I wanted to pay, he'd start crying. And I'd be like, Oh, my gosh, I can't even go to the toilet without failing you as a parent. And so I did, I have a lot of resent, I think towards him. Not, I don't know, because that sounds like a strong word. But that's what it was. You know, I just I looked at him. And I'd be like, because of you I can't be okay. That's just that was my reality at the time. And thankfully, you know, I have a husband who loves being a dad, and, you know, spent the first week being really the sole parent. And he took that on and has just run with it, you know, from day one, and not everybody has that. So I'm very blessed in that way. I had a mom who was at my house every day, you know, to do all the chores, like, you know, I have my little village that and I still was like that I need to be me again. That was like, I think after you have any kind of traumatic birth, figuring out who you are, is hard. Because you can't go back to what you were not who you want to be yet. You're just this like in between person that you don't recognize. And then you have this little squealing child that you know needs. They're relentless, relentless, and they should be exposed today. But when you're in that space of trying to just like survive, it's sort of the last thing that you need. And so I did, I felt really like a lot of that struggle to attach to him was because he was the barrier at the same time and overcoming that is difficult. And I had lots of support, and I still struggled. So there are a lot of people out there and it may be gave me so much respect for the families that I've worked with in the past. I was like, you know, the fact that like, your kid is five and like, I'm only hearing you that now it's like this is not so stressed that I was under with every possible support I could want. Yeah, it really made me realize who was in my corner. So that was a good thing, but I definitely you know, I'd look at this perfect little face and I'd be like yeah, and that just felt like I felt like a monster. I felt like some awful like, troll that had crawled out from under the bridge and like hated the baby. But like that Here's how I felt, I felt like I was on my own. I felt like, I'd made this huge mistake and brought this child into the world that I didn't want. And that, you know, I really felt like I never would like I'd look at, you know, moms loving their kids. And I'd be like, how do you do? Like, I don't have that, and I want that. And I did get there. But, you know, two months is a long time really, when you think about how much I had to do to get to that point. So it's just yeah, I think it feels like it goes against our nature as women to say out loud, like, I do not like my baby. And that is that we have to stay in, because people feel that way. Like, and that's what I mean, like, you can care for a child and meet all their needs and still not have that joy. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. One day might not be swimming, but it happens slowly. And thankfully, I got there in time. I needed to have that space to heal. Like, I don't think I think I'd still be struggling if I didn't have the ability to prioritize like it was a bit of a weird silver lining of a traumatic birth was that I could leave him with people. And know he was okay. You know, I know so many moms that who have that beautiful oxytocin rush at birth, who they'd be thinking about their baby nonstop and your brains. Our brains are supposed to be wired that way. Right? And so and I just be like, yeah, that's, yeah, that's a good point, actually. Now you say it, I feel felt the same way. But I hadn't really put my finger on it. Cuz he, he, as soon as you know, he was born, he was whisked off to the little box thing they put him in to keep them warm. And he was also given formula. And that was like a weight off of my shoulders. Because not all on me anymore. I am like, the biggest formula fan. In the world, I literally had no choice because my milk never came in. But I was so desperate diversity, and again, fell to the mother because I couldn't. But formula meant that I could recover. But I could leave who was my husband and I could have four nights of sleep. Like, it just gave us something that I don't think we could have had. I addressed it. And honestly, if I have another one, I don't think I even want to try breastfeeding because I was traumatized by the process of it not working. But I actually reflecting not that long ago, and I this is one of those things, I'd totally forgotten that. That sort of really emphasized my, where I was sitting in terms of like, not having a lot of emotion for my baby. I took him for a six week noodles. And my sister was with me and you know, the nurse was like, giving me all this prep on like, you're gonna be really distressed because he's gonna cry and it's gonna upset you. And I said, No, I'll be fine. She was like, No, really, like, everyone says that and then they burst into tears. So just be ready. And in my head, I was like, I don't care. Like, I don't care if he cried. And then he did. He started crying. And she looked at me and she was like, patting my arm. She's like, he's okay. And I literally looked her in the eye and I won't be sad, worse. And she just raised her eyebrows and I can see what's happening. My sister's sitting there with tears pouring down and she's like, just sitting there so indifferent. I completely forgot that happened. And my sister the other day, she was like, Yeah, you would not okay. Yeah, yeah. That's how I felt like I listened to him cry, and I felt nothing. And like, I was just what happened? I can't change it. And, you know, it didn't mean that I didn't care about him or like, I think I was. I did a lot of distancing, I think because I was just expecting to die like at any moment, I was not real panic of you know, it's not over yet. Because preeclampsia you can develop up to six weeks after you have a baby. So yeah, so you can have postpartum preeclampsia or help syndrome or pregnancy, which are like the sort of more severe versions. And so I knew that I was still in that time frame like I so I think I spent a long time trying not to get to know him because I thought if something happens to me like it's going to be harder for you. You to them not have a mom, like, you know, here's this big you didn't know what was happening. But that's how I was rationalizing. And so it was hard like trying to survive and care for a baby and still be yourself and find things that make you happy. And you just get bombarded with all of these things. I just need to rest, restaurants appearances is difficult. But I'm glad that I prioritized it because I think it gave me strength to then try and make the other things more positive or whatever. Yeah, but I mean, again, back to like, being a woman, resting is nowhere else. So even though I just been sliced open to my very core and back together really quickly, and you know, all that stuff. I was still like, no, like, I don't deserve rest. But, you know, that's just what I needed. So I think my body eventually just gave out and would just go to sleep, like at a moment's notice. You know, yes, my son had to wait, sometimes it meant that I could do it. And now, you know, I lost him. And I have all of those feelings that I wanted. And you know, that stuff came in time. It's hard, when the only stories that you're seeing and hearing are people that, you know, have that moment where they're on their chest, and they kiss the partner, and they have this beautiful golden hour. And, you know, and that's all you see, it's very hard to see your own experience as worth anything or real or, like, you just kind of look with envy, or these videos. Like, I still feel weird. I still feel weird seeing videos of, you know, moms that have their babies immediately placed on them, or like, I just instantly still feel jealous. You know, obviously, I would not wish my experience on anyone. But I, you know, I wanted that for me. And I didn't get it. And that was its own grief, like processing the loss of experience that I felt good about was a huge part of coming to terms. Yeah, yeah. What happens when your baby? Let's see, isn't it? And the thing that annoys me is like, people say, Arpit, women have been having babies for 1000s of years, blah, blah, blah, and it's like, but hang on a sec. So many things would have gone wrong over those 1000s of years. And I wanted to ask, and I don't know if this might be an insensitive question. So you can tell me to bugger off if you want to. But did you ever say that you sort of had any sort of feelings about when you talked before about being so close to death and surviving? Did you ever think like, imagine if I was, you know, in a third world country, or imagine if I was stuck at home, or you know how things would have gone 100% Particularly because preeclampsia I mean, the fatality statistics, the vast majority, like are in developing countries, because they don't have prenatal care and all that sort of thing. But even like, if I had done what my OB told me to do, I will be dead. If I had just gone home and relaxed and you know, not thought about it, and like, there's no way like I would have had a seizure at home, my blood pressure went insane. And then I would have died at home. Like it absolutely would have happened. So yes, that was on my mind, a lot like the timing of it was, was just, I see it as a miracle as someone who has faith, but like I said, when you have preeclampsia in hospital, they check your blood pressure, at least hourly. So it's very frequent. And mine was very unpredictable. So the medication wasn't really working. And so they were checking me super frequently. In the space of half an hour I went from like not concerning to our version of the code blue, which is called a map call. And that's where everyone runs in and they do all your tests. And, you know, within 15 minutes of that I started seizing 20 minutes later, my son was born and I was off to the ICU. So like the speed at which all of that happened. And like the fact that I was in hospital like I'm so proud of myself while listening to my gut instinct being like, Hey, I know you see the paranoid with your health, but let's go get checked in anyway. I yeah, I just thought and I still think so often of women who don't survive because they don't have access to what they need. To whether that's a medical professional or medication or whatever, like I think I was in the absolute best place I could have been when that happened. And even then it was a close call. So I marveled at the timing of everything and I just, my heart breaks every time I read a story about a mum, either a mum who dies or a baby like this preeclampsia can very quickly lead to placental abruption, which is very difficult for a little one to survive. And just a number of stories that I've read that sounds similar to mine, but they end with somebody passing away is heartbreaking. And, you know, regardless of what country you're in, but particularly for vulnerable women, you know, whether that's your racial background, or geographically where you live, like, there's just so much that factors into what kind of care you get. And like, I can't fault the kid that I had, like it was absolutely spot on and save my life. But yeah, the amount of people that don't have that is just so upsetting. And preeclampsia is just such a weird, like, no one knows why it happens. Like, it's still this big mystery that affects so many people, and particularly, you know, in developing countries, or even in some rural areas where you're really far away from your health care, I just think, oh my gosh, like if I even I was thinking about, like, I brought my mat lay forward because of my blood pressure. And I was like, I could have still been at work. Like, I could have still been, obviously, it was a Saturday. So, you know, wouldn't have been at work. But like that could have happened on a weekday, like the first day that I got really, really sick, was a Wednesday at lunchtime. And so I just couldn't stop thinking about like, the what ifs? What if person? Yeah, most anxiety people are, but I think I have to dwell on them a little bit. Like I have to give them some space to play out. Otherwise, they just played my mind. So you work through them? Yeah. There's so many aspects of my son's birth that I was like, Oh, my gosh, what is that? What is that? And thankfully, none of them came to pass. But yeah, it's very surreal, I think to look at what could have happened very easily what could have happened? And I'm reminded of that, because every time they see a doctor, they want to know, like, what happened to my blood pressure? And they looked at me like, I don't think you're right. Like, I don't think that's possible. And yet, yes, yes, it's possible because here I stand. So like, I get this reminder at every appointment, I thought there's no way you could have survived that. I think, I know, that's not like, as a yay, but it doesn't make me feel better. I hope to that in my lifetime, we see an answer to how to prevent it. Like, because that's what's scary about everything. Nervous gutters, and you can still get it. How do you? How do you? How do you fight that? I'm very passionate about and research and all that kind of thing now, on a witness just because, you know, I had everything I needed to know what it was. And it still took me by surprise. So the amount of people that you know, if they have a dodgy healthcare provider, or you know, there's so many things that could lead to you not not taking any notice, or just pregnancy being uncomfortable. Like there's so many symptoms of preeclampsia that you could just go oh, well, you know, I'm pregnant. So yeah, what I'm supposed to feel like shit. And like, sometimes. But I think like, yeah, it's just it's so important for women to trust themselves. Yes, yeah. We know that we know when we got feel good. And I can pretty much guarantee that everyone in the world, or at least in the developed world, will have a experience of trying to share something with particularly a male provider and being told like, no, that's not possible or like to go for a walk in assumption, or something like that when we're talking about a life threatening illness. That people can I walk away feeling dismissed. And then like within a week, I nearly died. That's a big deal. And the reason I didn't was because I went, you know what stuff you I'm gonna go and get it anyway. And 10 years ago, I wouldn't have had that, like, I wouldn't have had the confidence to trust myself. So, because we are taught to believe that what we think is less than why because of it, because we tell ourselves that we're just making a big deal out of nothing, but yet someone else knows better. So we couldn't possibly be right. To be like our own hype girl, like I'm getting, that's my goal is to try and be like, yes. I don't care if you can get stupid. Yeah, look this off. There was a post. I don't know how long ago I saw it on Instagram. It was basically people sharing their stories of times when, and this was in, in labor, particularly when they weren't listened to. And the amount of stories it was just appalling. And some of the outcomes were quite serious. And I mean, I didn't have it, I had a little a little moment like that, where by my like I said before, my son was born an hour and a half. And the he was my first delivery. And the doctor sort of joked I'll see you in 10 to 14 hours, you know, he went off to do a cesarean or something. And I literally felt within about half an hour that I felt like, I needed to push like, I felt like this, like I needed to do a poll. Basically, I described it as though there was a bowling ball coming out of my bottom. That's how it felt. And I said to the nurse, I feel like I've got a push. And she just looked at me with a shock on her face. And she she just she freaked out. And she went and got him. And he come in and he just went surely not like this. And I just thought you fucker. Anyway, he did an internal and he could feel the baby's head. I was like, Why don't you listen to us? We know what's going on in our bodies, like, Damn, you all makes us so cross. Yeah, it shouldn't be revolutionary for a doctor to believe that you're not feeling good. Like, literally your job. Guess to deal with sick people. So if I'm sitting here, whether that's I'm ready to push, or whether that's like, Hey, Doc, I've had a headache and dizziness for like two years, and I don't know what's wrong. Like, it's actually your job to listen to me and to believe me. And you know what my husband's never walked away from an appointment being made to feel like he doesn't know what's wrong. He just, he's always, I love him dearly. He's always like, just shocked when he hears these stories of like, this actually happened. Like I had an appointment once I went in, because I have it's a form of tinnitus, that like you can hear your heartbeat really loudly and it was getting me up at night, like I couldn't sleep. So it was really bad. And you know, because I don't trust doctors. Sometimes I Googled it. And I was like, Okay, this could be a brain tumor. So I should probably go check. I went into this doctor, I explained it. And he told me that I probably just need to drink more water. Oh, and then looked at my file and saw that I have PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And so she talked to me about that. And I said, I know like, I'm not managing that, like with my other doctor. I'm just here because I want to check that this isn't serious. And he proceeded to lecture me on my fertility for about 15 minutes, we really should start thinking about like trying to have a baby soon at this point. I was not with my husband, I was not in a place where I wanted to have a baby, or anything like that. And I was like, I just hear about my ear. Like, I'm here to talk to you about a noise in my ear. And you're trying to talk to me about my ovaries like this actually isn't any of your business, right? You're overstepping your boundaries. So much like energy has to challenge that in the moment. Like I think, again, experience I hear so often, including my own as women, as you sit in this appointment, just completely astounded at what you're hearing that the first time you try and challenge it, they shut it down. And it's like, you know what, whatever, like, do you speech? I'll go home. I'll Google it some more figured out. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we shouldn't have to resort to Google, we should be able to go to any doctor and say, Hey, these are my symptoms returned. What could it be? Yeah. And I think I look I've had these experiences with female healthcare providers to I think it's not just men but I immediately have like, my like antennas go up if I have to see a male doctor because I just my first ever experience that I was talking about at the start of this 10 years ago, I got Lyme disease when I was in America. Yeah, we don't have that here quote, unquote. So there's no testing for it. There's no anything so I was sick with this for nearly two years. But at the start of it, you know, I had all these symptoms. I went to a GP that I Just could get into. So I was 18 at the time, or sorry, just 19. So a baby, a baby with no backbone. And so I sat down and you know, they asked you if there's a possibility can be pregnant, which is fine, because they have to. And I said, No. And he came back to it. And he was happy. You sure? And I said, Yo, I've never been sexually active. So I'm pretty confident. And he literally he raised his eyebrows and said to me, I find that hard to believe. Ah, what do you say to that? Like, I dare anyone to say that to me now, like, with the amount of no crap given that I have now, you know, I hate him. But back then, like our baby, 19 year old with no self esteem. I just, I was like, What the heck. And that was my first experience of like, that feeling of going, okay, so you just think I'm crazy. Like you respect me at all. So I think like, it's it happens. It's real. And then, you know, fast forward to when I was pregnant. And I was being told that I needed to go to an obesity clinic at 33 weeks pregnant. And I was told, like, she told me I needed to lose weight. Like, these babies got another like kilo or two to go, like, in what way? Can I lose weight? She's like, What very least you can't gain any weight. I was like, Okay, again, my baby still got to like, chop out. Like, she was crazy. And what I mean, she was crazy. But it was just, it was mental. I was like, crying. So I was like, This is not like, you know, I had self esteem issues my way in anyway. I was like, Why? Why are we talking about this? You know, and then the next appointment, I was told all of these symptoms, just don't worry about it, you just need to relax more like enjoy your maternity leave. Can you just look at my flashing. That happened a week, I was gonna ask that actually, if any of these people you've come across again and be like, actually, I almost died. So get started, I haven't because I went, I switched hospitals. So I had like shared care with the high risk hospital. And that's where I ended up going because they had just completely redone. Like their birthing suites and everything and they have, it's really good. It's basically an emergency department, but for pregnant people. So I went there, because I was like, uh, you guys know, that I am trying to. And when I say trying to I mean, it's on my list and never at the top of my list, because maybe the Social Work team at the hospital, I burst that, like, open for feedback. So caliber long after your birth. And so I plan to have a meeting with them and just kind of go through. Because it's all in the same local health district. I can kind of point out like, Hey, can we have a look at like, who I saw at this thing, because they need to know that when I sat there, and I told them, that I had a headache, and that my vision was blurry. My right shoulder was hurting. And, you know, I was swelling up so much that like, I could push my finger in and it would just leave a dent like it was disgusting. And like all of that I was just told to relax and not to worry about it. And when you look at a list of symptoms of preeclampsia are all there like? So it's a matter of actual education? Like, I mean, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a part of me that wanted to just be like, like, I nearly died, that. I also want them to do that. Like I wants to know that the next person they see that runs through everything that's happening. They don't just dismiss it and go, Oh, well, you know, you're pregnant, you're likely to be uncomfortable, you know? Yes, you're likely to be uncomfortable, but not to this extent. That's it. Yeah. So I do like, I'm quite passionate about health care providers, not just knowing more, because they know the symptoms. They know them, but seeing it and hearing it and actually taking it seriously. Yeah. Because you don't want to be the doctor that told someone they were fine. And not to worry about it. And then they die. And that's on you. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like your job is there to catch this stuff. And to help prevent it and manage it. And if you can't do that, then maybe find another job. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? I really saw and just the way that they were treated like I had one midwife, she was lovely. She had probably in the late 40s. And she was the first one to catch my blood pressure during the weird thing where it like split and went into opposite directions. And so she went and grabbed like one of the old days and here's a young, a young guy. He was so dismissive to her work when she was telling him what had happened. And he was like, No, that's not possible. And then he checked my blood pressure and I did the same thing. And then he went on like announced it to everyone because it was So interesting. Like, like, he'd found it. Cool. And I just like, looked at her and I was like, what just happened? And she just sort of rolled her eyes and she's like, Oh, young doctors, like they're all the same. And I was like, I know that like, still, you know, I'm watching this guy who looked younger than me, right? A woman with 20 plus years new recruit experience, or, you know, a new thing that he hadn't seen. And I was like, no, like, like, the midwives are the ones that I was crying on, and that were helping me like, try and walk after three days in an ICU. They were the ones helping, because my C section was so fast that by the time I got back to postnatal, they, they didn't even have time to wake me up, like I was still covered, like, in my blood is disgusting. And so like, you know, I was grossed out by that. But obviously, midwives they've seen everything so gentle and calm and and like, the doctors would come in for 30 seconds every day and be like, yeah, right, by, you know, but the midwives, they were the ones that like I hadn't read, like, who the one who respected them that call. She came and visited me three days after, like, interface, Natal, or just check in and I was like, That's so nice. Like, I know that I could go and find the doctor and he wouldn't have a clue who I was he wouldn't days ago. So I think there's yeah, there's at every level, women are really disadvantaged and made to believe that we don't know what we're talking about. We actually make the world go round. Absolutely. Oh, my gosh, she could not have said it better. I feel like sometimes, like if we just went on strike, what would happen to the world? You know, if we just went up not doing it anymore, you guys sorted out countries have successfully passed some pretty significant legislation because women go on a sex strike. story seriously, it's like radicals will ever read. And it's in countries that would surprise you to like, this is not happening in the developed world. And I was just like, oh my gosh, I'm getting that sounds awesome. Power. Yes. When men don't get what they want, it's a bit how much you have. But it's not taken seriously when we're actually trying to like use it. You know, beneficial things. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. That's thing you can sometimes you can feel like so amazing and wonderful. Like we birth we bring the next generation to the world we raise them and then somebody's like, just take the piss out of you at the petrol station because you don't know how to put the hubcap on or you know, it's just something like that, like, and then you're like, This is where I've made in the world. If I say something, and then a man copies exactly what I say and then everyone is good idea. And I used to just be silent and now I literally go Oh, I wish someone else had said the first like I always have to point it out now because I just get so nabbed. Yes. You can't let it go. Like Yeah. Yeah. A lot of like, a lot of guys that I know and love, don't even realize they do it. Like that's how subtle it is. Yep. And I was, how's this for a proud wife a moment. So my husband, we were having dinner because I caught myself Nan's gleaning today halfway through the sentence, and I immediately apologize. A little feminist izany put on him. You have no idea how much has changed. It's been so good. Like, it's been really a loved one. And I'm happy to learn about privilege. Like I think it's, it's only a good thing. And there's actually if you've not read it, I feel like you'd like it. There's a book called, say what you made me do by Jeff Hill, and it's about domestic abuse. But her chapter on patriarchy is just phenomenal. Like, if you could isolate that chapter on its own, it is the best break down and she's an Aussie. So it's using all these statistics, which I really like. But I think just writing in such a way that like my husband, and was like, Oh my gosh, I had no idea. This is how much the patriarchy hurts me. And yeah, like that sort of thing. So it's definitely it's a resource that I recommend to everyone when I talk about this, which is Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's really good. I think it's really powerful is if a guy can read something about patriarchy and not feel offended by it. It's written well, yeah, like he's not being attacked and it's kind of feel like his place is being threatened. I guess. Thank you so much for spending so much time with me today. I've loved chatting with you and going over some some big topics and breaking some stuff down was my favorite thing to do. I love it. Thank you for bearing with me. And thank you so much for sharing. So honestly, I really appreciate it and I know that the listeners will appreciate hearing from you. So thanks again. It's been wonderful. My pleasure and all the best and yeah, keep I'll keep my eye out on your Instagram and laugh along with you. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. The music you heard featured on today's episode was from Elim Joe, which is my new age ambient music trio comprised of myself, my sister, Emma Anderson and her husband John. If you'd like to hear more, you can find a link to us in the show notes. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum.

Kate Mildenhall Australian writer, podcaster and educator S2 Ep26 Listen and Subscribe on itunes , spotify and google podcasts Welcome back to 2022, Season 2. My first guest of the year Kate Mildenhall, a writer, educator and podcaster from Hurstbridge Victoria on Wurundjeri lands, and a mum of 2. Kate is the author of two novels. Her debut novel, Skylarking , (2016) was named in Readings Top Ten Fiction Books of 2016 and longlisted for Best Debut Fiction in The Indie Book Awards 2017 and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize and The Mother Fault (2020) which was Longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and Shortlisted for the 2020 Aurealis Awards, Best Science Fiction Novel. Kate also co hosts The First Time podcast a podcast with fellow author Katherine Collette about the first time you publish a book, and she is currently working on her third novel and undertaking a PhD on creative process. We enjoy a lively chat about failure, creating in a covid world, judgement of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman. **This episode contains mentions of post natal depression* Kate website / Instagram Twitter @ katemildenhall Books mentioned Rufi Thorpe article - Mother, Writer, Monster, Maid Four Thousand Weeks - Oliver Burkeman The Divided Heart - Rachel Power Making Babies - Anne Enright Listen to Claudia Carvan read The Mother Fault on audible Purchase Kate's books here Podcast instagram / website Music used with permission from Alemjo - Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast where we hear from mothers who are artists and creators sharing their joys and issues around trying to be a mother and continue to make art. Regular topics include mum guilt, identity, the day to day juggle mental health, and how children manifest in their art. My name is Alison Newman. I'm a singer songwriter, and a mum of two boys from regional South Australia. I have a passion for mental wellness, and a background in early childhood education. You can find links to my guests and topics they discuss in the show notes, along with music played a link to follow the podcast on Instagram, and how to get in touch. All music used on the podcast is done so with permission. The art of being a mom acknowledges the bone tech people as the traditional custodians of the land and water which this podcast is recorded on and pays respects to the relationship the traditional owners have with the land and water, as well as acknowledging past present and emerging elders. Welcome back to season 220 22. My guest today is Kate Mildenhall, a writer, teacher and podcaster. From her speech Victoria orangerie lens, and a mom of two. Kate is the author of two novels her debut novel skylarking, released in 2016, and her most recent released the mother fault from 2020, Kate also co hosts the first time podcast with fellow author Catherine collet. About the first time he published a book, she's currently working on her third novel, as well as undertaking a PhD on creative process. Today, we enjoy a lively and fun chat about failure, creating in a COVID world judgment of mothers, how her mothering influences her writing, and why everyone should think like a 40 year old woman, I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much for coming on case. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's delightful to chat to you. It's lovely to meet you. Let's share with the listeners. what your background is in what you create. Well, these days, I am a writer. So I've written a couple of books. And my last one was called the mother fault. My first was called skylarking. And I'm currently working on my third book and just added a PhD because you know, COVID times was like times to do crazy things, right? So I'm doing that so and beautifully at the moment. I'm getting to do that, you know, full time in whatever kind of capacity being a full time writer is what that looks like. I know, it looks like really different things for different people. But that's what I do. eautiful So, can you share what your new book is gonna be called? Are you still working on a time we're still working on that one. And I've actually just been away for a week, which says lots of things both about motherhood and guilt and Christmas and being an artist and to work on it. Because it's just been so crazy to try and work on creative projects during the homeschooling and the rest of it. I'm over here in Melbourne. And and I've exploded the book. I've I've I've done something quite radical with it. So that's fine. Just letting it simmer all the all the crazy things I've just done. But yeah, but it's been really fun. I've been working on that for about a year because the mother fault came out last year in the midst of of lockdown. So yes, I've been I've been working away. Oh my goodness. So what's your PhD? So the PhD is is it's really fun and exciting. It's at RMIT. And it's practice based. So it means that I get to do my writing. And I also am a podcaster. So I co host the first time podcast, which is interviews with writers. And a lot of just oversharing myself and my co host Katherine about our general publishing journeys. And, but I get to include all of that. So I get to include the my kind of interviewing and my obsession with creative process because that's what I am utterly obsessed with. So I'm and then my novel is kind of part of it as well. So it's a little bit different to a traditional kind of PhD. So I'm looking really particularly at journaling, and dealing with the kind of creative process and how writers do their thing how writers do their process. That sounds really fun. Like it sounds like it's just it's just a part of what you're going to be doing anyway. So it's not going to be like a tremendous I mean, I'm not saying it's going to be you know, hard to make your life anyway, but it sounds quite doable. Yes, and like it's almost like it's given it a kind of a shape all of the other work that I do you know sometimes when you're in a position and you can describe vibe, you know, this is my writing, this is the podcast and it all kind of links, you know, and having the PhD kind of around that goes, oh yeah, this is really validating to me, because it's a serious thing that I'm doing. Yeah. And also just community. Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that happens when you're writing often and might in before I was a teacher, so I was really used to having lots of people around me and a big collaborator. And so I have often found the writing process to be quite lonely. And so even just having the system of the PhD and colleagues and supervisors and to be able to part be part of that network already, like I'm in the six months in MIT, it's, that's wonderful. Yeah, so it's really meeting that need the that creative space that Yeah, to do so. Also, now the kids are really excited, cuz they like, oh, my gosh, you're gonna be adopted one day? Yes. So they're super pumped about that? Before we get to the kids, I know that was you gave me a beautiful segue there, but I'm gonna go take you back. Yeah. Did you do have you always been a writer? Or you know, when you? No, no, no. So I was at school, like, passionately into it kind of wanted to be a writer, wrote lots, you know, at high school and did the Friday anthology and won awards and things like that. And then I wanted to do this tape degree, Brian MIT writing and editing as, when I left, I went talk to the careers teacher about it. And apologies to people who've heard this story, if any of your listeners had, because I've told it so many times, but the TAFE their careers teacher said, Kate, Smart Girls don't do TAFE and basically said, don't do that course. And I was like, Ah, right. And, you know, not having not having kind of much goal of my own at that stage. I went off and did something else, which I promptly dropped out of, you know, after a year and went off traveling. But I went back and did that, that that course, eventually, which is the delightful thing, but no. So I went and traveled for a while, then I went back to uni and did teaching. And at that time, I kind of, I was writing a little bit like journaling a lot, but writing a little bit, and I, I put something in for a competition, and I didn't get anything, didn't, didn't get anything at all. And after all of these years of like, you know, winning things or getting commended in them. It was such a rude shock to me. I mean, I laugh at it. Now I tell this story to students because and they have a laugh at my expense. But I just I saw it as a huge failure and rejection. And I was like, Oh, I can't I can't write, I'm not going to write. And so I stopped. I stopped for like, all of these years, and I taught and you know, I was passionate about reading about teaching writing, and but I just I, other than my journal, I don't think that I wrote anything during all of those years. And then it was actually when my firstborn arrived that I felt compelled to write again. So yeah, so I writing wasn't, I never thought that I could be a writer when I grew up or that you know that that was a crazy outlandish kind of a thought. It's really interesting you say about that validation that you put that entry in, and it didn't get anything. And then that defines how you feel about your creativity. I had a similar experience years ago, because I used to do in a we had to do a Stanford's when we were proud of this group. And I was used to doing pretty well. And then I went in this larger competition and didn't even place and so I stopped performing. Because I'm not as good as I thought I was. You know, and for years, I let that define me that I wasn't, I wasn't as good as I thought I was. So I just went well, I must be very good anymore, isn't it? It's how do we it's ridiculous. I know. And, and heartbreaking. And often, when I'm talking about it with other writers, I'll say, you know, prepare for it and expect it and like get them in early, get as many values as you can eat early because I wasn't you know, I wasn't I hadn't developed any muscle in that area. So I so exactly like you say I just I did let it define me and like what a waste. I mean, I eventually came back to it. And I'm so glad and I think that you know, anyone who is an artist of any description probably has that kind of pulse in them that it's going to come out at some stage like you've got to make space for that at some stage or else it'll eat you up. And I'm so glad that it did. But I still think gosh, those, those wasted years in there as well. So these days, how do you view that kind of experience? Now? Like, if if you put yourself in something and you don't get it? How do you process that for yourself? That's such a good question. The, the, the last one that I had was actually, in the middle of the kind of process of the mother fault. I, I lost the original publisher and had to go and kind of start, start shipping it out again. And I was in, you know, I was broken for a little bit like it was it was rock bottom, I, I didn't think that I would be able to look at the manuscript again, I was hurt, and yet felt a lot of self loathing, I think. And what I realized during that period, was that I was going to do the damn thing anyway. You know, like that, I think that I had got to a point where I was like, Well, I don't care. I'm going to, you know, this, this book is kind of bigger than may sounds a bit wonky. But you know, we're in that sense, where you're like, I've got to see this thing through to the end, and see what it does. And so that was the thing, in the end that that got me through, and I think it's just layers, isn't it of rejection and failure along the way. I mean, you know, often, and you might be in the same position that, you know, people will say, Oh, yeah, but you your published like, How could anything ever go wrong from here, or you've got the thing, you know, you've already reached the goal, or you've been able to perform there or do that. And, and, I mean, the stakes just get higher, in a sense, and you just get rejected more publicly, with, with bigger stakes along the way. So yeah, yeah, that, that it's been a good, it's been a good learning process. For me, I think. And I just, I really do wish that I just failed more and failed more often. I think, too, when you're younger, no one sort of teaches you how to how to fail, like no one, no one says, Okay, now that now that you've lost, or they were better, or someone thought they were better, what how do you talk to yourself about that? Like, how do you do that, like, no one teaches so true. So you sort of know, just find your own way through. And unlike in both of our situations, it takes a long time. So you sort of think, gosh, if I hadn't done that earlier, what could I have achieved, you know, in all that time and space, instead of pushing things away, you know? Yeah, yeah. I agree. Teachers listening tapes. Had a flat. And that's I'm going on a tangent now. But that's the thing too, like, are we so afraid of those emotions that we don't want kids to lose? We that's why we give them everyone gets a for trying sticker and everyone gets Yeah, more than when we play pass the pass like kids parties. Everybody has to get a wrap up? You know, I know. And it's really hard. Everyone has to keep one has to be happy all the time. Yeah, I think that the hardest thing to do you find like sitting with your kids disappointment, and all those emotions that you can't fix, you know, something going on at school, and you just have to have to resist the impulse to try and fix it and make it make it better all the time. You know, and to take the discomfort away because it's, you know, you do have to feel all those horrible emotions and get and get used to them. That's thing if you don't have the opportunity to feel them, you could never work through them. So then all of a sudden you feel them and you go, what's this? I don't know what to do with this. And yeah, you deal with it in inappropriate ways. Like eating too much or drinking. Absolutely. All of the above. Oh, my gosh. Let's lean into your children. Tell us about your family. Okay, so I have I have two daughters. Gracie is my eldest. She's 10 going on 11 kind of you know, going on 19 And she is fiery and amazing. And then my youngest is Etta. And she's eight. Also fiery and amazing. And, you know, it feels very funny kinda I'm talking about them. At this point, I was actually really looking forward to, you know, to doing this because the book that I wrote is the last one is very much informed by my experience of motherhood. But you end up kind of packaging it in certain ways, like for the book world, you know, you package it in these kind of little sound bites. And, and in fact, the girls think it's hilarious because they were around so much when I was doing promo for the book, because we were all in lockdown. And they, they got really cross a couple of times, because they must have heard me say things like, you know, parenting is really hard. And I didn't like it all the time. Like, yeah, it's true, you know, and I'm gonna have to live with the fact that there's all these sound bites out in me talking about, you know, how kind of shit parenting has been at various times. But they are, they are glorious beings. We've just spent a lot of time together in the last 18 months. And, you know, it's kind of, I never realized the joy of watching them go off to their independent things, and all come back at the end of the day and be able to like, we've all done different things for the day is a very new and strange experience that I think only parents who've lived through this kind of last 18 months really understand. So they're my two. Yeah, they've done things during the day that you don't know about. That would be nice. Yeah, exactly. We're all really, really excited to tell each other about what? Oh, my goodness. So during that time, how did you manage to continue to do stuff during lockdown? Ah, we, you know, we didn't I think we just we just kept on failing beautifully. And when we first went in, so who even knows when that was maybe March, last year, I'm I'm sitting here in this little studio that my darling partner built for me in the backyard, and it was just finished, like, literally just finished the week before locked down. Where Of course, he also moved home and had to kind of write out do his work from home as well. He's a psych nurse. So he was kind of out and about, but also doing a lot of his work here. So this saved us having this actual separate space, because I used to work in the corner of the lantern. So I actually don't think that we would have survived at all, had we not had this. And the other beautiful thing was that because Adam, you know, his workplace was really good and quite flexible, so that he could do a lot of the homeschooling stuff in the mornings and then go out, you know, we just kind of juggled a bit between each other. And, and the kids, we live, we live kind of on the outskirts of Melbourne, there's a lot of trees, there's a big reserve behind us, like, I did feel extremely lucky that we had a bit more space around us. And, and we did you know, some of it, maybe the first two locked, it wasn't really, some of it was really lovely. And I think we did do that stuff of going, okay, we can have a fire in the backyard on a Wednesday night. And, you know, I would walk with one of the girls in the morning before they started just to give them a bit of space away from each other. And we did really pay attention to the flowers and the mushrooms and the birds and you know, so So for all that it was incredibly difficult. And there's also quite a few kids in our street. And we live in, you know, a little space where we could offer each other that support with other families and, you know, playing in the street, and across driveways and things like that. So I think really, we didn't you know, I lost a fair bit of work but but was still able to carry on, you know, we weren't in a really difficult kind of position with our jobs, and Adam kept his job. So for all those things, I think, you know, we were in incredibly, incredibly lucky. But also, as I said, to all of my mates and all of our WhatsApp threads, who had kids, you know, as we all kind of know, you know, we would all spiral down at certain points and just say like, I can't do this, I cannot do it anymore. I can't because it was never part of the deal that we signed up for right as parents, especially when then especially when you've already sent them out into the world and off to school and the rest of it like to suddenly have these big, curious, active social kids home with you all the time. And we're just we're just not equipped to provide everything that was partly out of the better the deal. Oh, man, look, hats off to you guys over there like we've we've had Touchwood we've had nothing as extreme as that. So yeah, you guys were often in our thoughts over here, all the Melbourne people, it's just unreal what you've been through. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it's sad, and to be able to maintain your creativity maintain. Yeah, and I think creativity, you know, at times, and I've talked about this with a few friends in the writing world. You know, I was like, oh, gosh, maybe I should just go and train, retrain, I'll retrain to be like, a personal care attendant, or, you know, like, if there was that sense of, like, what is the point of doing my art in, you know, in a burning world, in a burning world, in a world that's collapsing, and so there was that pressure, but also the kind of focus or deep work that I find I need to do creative work just wasn't there, you know, I couldn't you at any stage knew you're going to be interrupted, couldn't get purchase on any kind of thought to go deep on it, I am often need to go away, or that's the way that I've done my kind of writing practice is that a few times a year, when it works, I'll go away for a few days, either with a writing group or on my own and, and go really deep on it. And that's where I find you know, I have real breakthrough, so to not have any of that, but also to not have any of that kind of friction of being out in the world, you know, and, and seeing people or interacting with people or observing things, or being able to go to the ocean, or all the things that would normally fill me up so that I have some kind of something to give some output. Whereas I felt like what what do I possibly have? I've been inside my house, with my children, you know, worrying and that anxious, you know, that kind of being in lizard brain mode of at any stage about that uncertainty, but also thinking? Am I supposed to panic now? How am I protecting my children, you know, and being fearful of other people, for the first time was a very strange kind of thing. And I think it'll take a while for us all to get to the other side of that. Hmm, absolutely. It's sort of I had a moment where I was going for a walk one day, and all of a sudden, I just thought, oh, shit, has that person got COVID? Like, I was just starting to panic. And I felt myself sort of shiver and, and I just sort of backed up and went home real quick. I thought, this is a horrible thing to be thinking. Yeah, well, but it was like, and then every time you turn the telly on everything on the radio, you just couldn't escape it. And it was just disastrous. So that's when I basically came into my studio and started music, more music stuff, I just had to get out of the current world and go back into a different world. So you found it. So you could do that. You could then put your energy into that space. Yeah, that's I basically had to, I use it as an escape. Maybe. I just had to end. What I ended up doing was I look, I was I was listening to a lot of older music, I think to take myself out of the current time space to Yes, yes. So I started doing covers of, of older songs. And I ended up releasing them all because it was like, I created different versions of the songs, got different backings, got a piano player, change the tempo, all this stuff. And it was sort of my way of looking back on it. Now. I don't think I realized at the time, but, but making sure that things were different. That changing. I didn't like what was happening. So I was changing it in some way. You know, I love that. Yeah. It's really that's the first time I've actually articulated that out loud. That's really interesting. Well, it's very profound. You mentioned before about your mother's hope novel, now you write fiction. So yeah, at school, I could never remember the difference. That's your struggle. I'm just, yeah, fiction made up, which means it's made up. But you mentioned that your mothering role had a lot of influence over that. So what sort of themes were you exploring in the book and I apologize, I haven't read your books. No, absolutely. Read say that. Because I I'm not a very good reader. I don't like to sit still and read. Isn't that terrible? No, not at all. Not at all. Then they, the mother fault is a it's a kind of a thriller. It said in the very near future, and it's about a woman MYM, who's got two kids, Sen. Sam and when the novel opens, her husband, Ben has gone missing on an overseas mine site. And in this very near future, Australia, everyone has tracking chips in their hands. But he's offline, they can't work out where he is. And very quickly, she's told to stay where she is, and not to investigate it any further. And so she does. So she does, because they kind of threatened to take her kids away from her. And she says stuff this, I'm gonna go and find him. And so she goes on the run. So she crosses Australia, with the two kids and then gets on a yacht and, and sails to Indonesia to try and search for him. So, you know, where the idea came from. My first book was historical fiction, so nothing at all in this kind of world. But when I finished skylarking, I was kind of sitting with this idea of the kids at that stage. Maybe Esther was like, two and Gracie was four, I think. And I was deep in that bit that those trenches where you like, wow. Not at school yet. So you're doing that kind of childcare, kinder, you know, crazy run every day is no more than kind of two hour, lots of anything. And I, and still that period, where it's just really hard. It's just really hard, you haven't I hadn't kind of totally I'd had this moment when the book came out of kind of re re identifying as, as, as a writer, and while I'm a professional out in this world, but also, then I just come home, and it's just, you know, back to packing snacks and feeling guilty about them not being organic, and the rest of it. And so there was that stretch, there was that kind of huge amount of feelings, both positive feelings, I adore these kids, I will do anything for these kids, I would kill for these kids at the same time as sometimes wanting to run away. So there was those feelings that I had. And at the same time, it was very deep in the political kind of craziness of the asylum seeker debate, and which, of course, we haven't at all fixed or done anything good about in this country. And so I was kind of like having that daily thing of the news of watching, particularly women who were, you know, crossing oceans in really unsafe ways to try and make their kids safe. At the same time going, I just want to run away from my kids like, how, how are these two? How can I reconcile these feelings? Yeah, so for that reason, you know, over time, I realized that I wanted to write about a woman, you know, on the run, trying to kind of protect our kids, but also trying to make sense of who she is, and what she's allowed to want. Now that she's a mother, and is she allowed to want the things that she used to want. She you know, she has a kind of crazy affair with an ex lover on the boat, in, in the book, not not a real spoiler, because lots of people talk about it when they read the book. And, you know, it was that kind of thing. And people have got cross, like, it's one of the things in the book that people are really cross about. Because that, I think, when we, when we look at mothers in fiction, and mothers in general, in society, we have all these expectations of how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to feel, and what they're supposed to prioritize. And if you kind of, you know, poke the bear, I suppose, and say, well, maybe this isn't what, what we want, or what we always want, and maybe it's complicated. You can get some big responses out of people. So, you know, that's what I kind of wrote in my, my feelings. I also, you know, there's a kind of thread of, it's not named, but postpartum depression, which I think I probably had but never really understood. The first time around with my first with my first daughter. Yeah, so everything, all of the feelings, all of the feelings, I kind of composited into the book. Did you find that was the way view of you're dealing with that stuff? Like you use that as a way to work through things? Yeah, I do think so. I think I was so compelled at that point to write about the motherhood experience, and in a way where I really wanted him to be kind of this superhero figure. And in fact, beautifully a couple of reviewers have kind of commented that you know, like, she's the kind of Jack Reacher of she's just like mum version of Jack Reacher and I love that. I love that because it was about it. saying, you know, I definitely don't have any answers in there. But, but being able to talk about it and being able to look at this idea that instead of, instead of what I feel like there's some pressure to do, which is to say, oh, okay, I'm a mum now. And so now I do things in a, in a mum way, like, I erase this kind of version of myself that was there before, which, it just seems so crazy, but I think to a level where or compelled to do that a little bit like, okay, you know, now we do things this way. And, and it was great to be able to examine this, this feeling of going on, I am still that young version of myself too. As part of it, I went on a yacht, I'd never been on a yacht before. And I, I crude, I volunteered to crew on a yacht, from Darwin to Indonesia, in a race. And, like, it was, it was crazy. It was one of the craziest things I've ever done. And it was incredible. And part of what was incredible about it is that it was scary, you know, and, and I, I reached new levels of fear. And when I was underneath, you know, at one night in my cabin, before, when I came off the late shift and thinking, we're going, you know, this boat is going to tip over which of course, that's not what happens. But if you think I'm gonna die in this boat, and that's going to be ridiculous. And my daughters are going to think, Oh, Mom was doing this stupid research for a stupid book. And she drowned in the middle of the table. It's a, but when I got to Amazon as well, I got to travel around a bit. I stayed there for a few extra days. And on my own, like traveling on my own, like I hadn't, you know, kind of really ever, but also, I remembered that my 19 year old self who was a backpacker who, who could make a decision on the corner about which way they were going to go and not to reach consensus with an entire family about what they wanted to eat or what snack they wanted it. You know, it was remembering that kind of that kind of sense of myself, which I think was powerful. Oh, that's incredible. That's, that is so good. And that's when you had your sordid affair. Yeah, no, definitely not. That part wasn't true? Yeah, that's that is so cool. Because what you're saying about society's expectations of what a mother should be? I feel like that is that that's what seems to drive the mom guilt. I think it's like, you see, or you do a post on your socials or whatever, or you see someone else's. And there's all these comments and you think, across what are we supposed to be doing then? Are we supposed to be spending time with the kids? And we're not supposed to be spending time? Are we supposed to be going getting our hair done? Without? Like, it's all this constant? Yes. Judgment. Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So I think, you know, I actually had a gorgeous, gorgeous dinner last night with, with very old friends that I went to school with. And, you know, as always, as we talk about work and life, and our marriages and our kids, you know, we were commenting and we've all just we're in the the years of old turning 40 that we've just reached part where we an excuse the language, you can put a language you want to have no fucks left to give. And, you know, but but we were commenting, like how that's been a slow process, and that in all those early years, like, all those things, am I packing the right snacks? How many cakes? Should I bake for the cake store? Should I be on the Kinder committee? Should I you know, how will we how are we approaching this way of parenting the kids like, just constant self judgment, constant comparison? And then additionally, if you're a creative, so you've got all that world over there, and then if you're a creative, you've also got the like, how much of myself can I give to my parenting and how much of myself can I can I keep over for my art and how selfish I was just rereading this amazing article by roofie thought which I'll send through to you. It's called Mother writer monster made and it was something that I was really touchstone for me while I was writing the book, and it's about her kind of really grappling with this idea of, I think it's Jenny awful, who says about being an art monster, like, you know, that, that, that there's this sense that throughout history, you know, all of the, you know, the old white male writers like they just set up in their studios or whatever their attics writing while they had a wife to do everything else, they didn't see their children, they could, they could spend all of their energy, all of their intellectual space, all of it on, on doing their work. And I don't, I don't want to do that, like I, I do want to kind of be involved and go down and see the carols at lunchtime and do those things. Like I feel very lucky that it's worked out in a way that I do get to be present. But also sometimes I do not sometimes I want to go away for two weeks and work on my book and forget, honestly, forget for a minute that I have children, because I think part of it is that that enormous part of our brain, which is constantly, constantly with the kids somewhere, you know, worrying about or just ticking over slightly, you know, have they got something today? Have they got that bag, all that present that I need to get, you know, and then and then the biggest thing is, are they happy? Have we made the right decision? Should we send them to an alternative school sheet, you know, all of the things that just wind around in your head all the time? And sometimes I think, Wow, if I? What could I do with that space? You know, what can I do with that space? And I think I had the most I had the beautiful kind of opportunity to interview Helen Garner for our podcast. A couple of weeks back, you bring that up? Well, it was incredible. But you know what I had? I you know, I've read her for so long. And I asked her about why she hasn't had to answer the motherhood questions so much. I mean, she talks about motherhood in her journals, particularly, but I was kind of wondering whether it was just my age that she did get asked that, you know, maybe when she first published monkey grip, and she says, this most glorious thing about, you know, when she had her daughter who's about to turn 50. So that gives you a sense, or who's a bit older than 50, I think. She said we didn't have a choice. Like it wasn't a decision to make, we just had kids, there was no anxiety about it, there was no thinking that it was a choice. And she's she tells this beautiful story about you know, for better or for worse that basically she kind of strode out into life. And she, she told her daughter to, you know, to kind of keep up. And she and she, you know, typical Garner always says, I don't know if that was the right way to do it. But that's how I could do it. And I and and she acknowledges also that there's just an an incredibly different level of anxiety around even the decision to have children now, which has made it all the more complicated. Think, yeah, because everything is a decision and you're so conscious about what am I saying? Yes to what am I taking away from my kids? Should I just be sitting here kind of being around for them? Or should I go out and do the thing that I really want to do, which takes me away from them, but, you know, maybe in 20 years, they're going to say, Gee, mom really did what she loved. You know, that's what you have to kind of hope right? across you. Be in therapy talking about us? Exactly, exactly. We can I mean, we can't do it. Right. You know, there's ways that we can, I suppose, try and mitigate against a failure and really bad ways every day for them. But I, I have got better we talked about failure before I've also got better at realizing that um, you know, I'm going to stuff this gig up this parenting gig up constantly, constantly, I'll stuff it up and, and being able to say that to the kids as well, you know, maybe is, is one way of getting through it. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, I wasn't even. You mentioned, do you have girls have heard you say comments like that, while you're at home doing you your book launch? Is it important to you that they actually see that you are going out and doing stuff? I don't want to say not just being a mom, because there's no Yeah, being a mom? Of course, you're I'm hearing that. Yeah, no, it really is. And you know, the first time that that was truly validating, so I went on mat leave from at that stage. I was working in this at the State Library doing education there. And I went on mat leave. And that's when I realized I think I said before, you know, when Gracie was born, I just felt this extraordinary urge to write again and it kind of came at me in different ways. I tried to join a local writing group, it didn't work then you know, and not until Esther was born. Did I really go Okay, that's it. I'm gonna I'm going back to uni. I'm going to do it. And which led to some of the first kind of guy games that the kids played when they were, you know, doing imaginary play, were picking up laptop bags and going to you playing going to uni. And I thought I remember thinking, Oh, this is a good thing, let you know, like that they are seeing me do this, that it's this kind of crazy working life that I have. But they're, you know, incredibly proud of it. They like googling me, they think that's really fun. But, you know, and so they liked that part of it. On the other hand, it you know, at some point they will, maybe they will read, the mother felt and that's terrifying. Like, I think I will feel really unscanned by that process, because I you know, it has, it is really revealing of the fact that sometimes you don't want to have to be both, you don't want to have to be a mother and artist and friend, and you know, partner and all of those things. You just like, just give me some space, just do one thing. But But I also think I've tried to be really open, the kids have seen me at rock bottom, the kids have seen me on the days where I've had to close the door and have a cry and say, just let me have a cry, Nia, you know, I need I need time out. And for better or for worse. That's the kind of way that we've run with it. So hopefully, they will, you know, they will see that as an honest part. But I am conscious to that. You know, I haven't written memoir, and I think it must be really hard for people who are writing nonfiction and kind of living living their lives. And their children's stories far more openly. Like I'm conscious of that. And I do read with with close interest how people navigate talking about their kids, when they start to have a profile in terms of what their art does as well, I think that's just hard. I don't have any answers to that. Is you have to think you'd have to be so considerate of them. Have them exactly be so aware of. Yeah, it can be quite hurtful for them. You know, it's Yeah. And as they start to talk about, you know, I think one of the things that happened which is really funny in the process of it took me four years to write the mother fold is that, you know, Gracie, Gracie grew up, and I and so I changed the one of the characters se she actually grew older, I made her older in the course of it because it was suddenly became so fascinating talking with my daughter, you know, like, when they get to that part where they start, you know, you start having really interesting kind of conversations and they're curious and and they've kind of leveled up in the intellectual stakes. So much so that you think whoa, whoa, what have we got ourselves into here? This is a real little human who has like, really big thoughts about the world. So you know, that's interesting as well, to me, that's, that's wonderful. And I love their perspective or perspective on the world and the way that they can so throw you with their truthiness. Sometimes, oh, gosh, yeah. I work in childcare. That's That's my day job. And I see you get those. I'll never tire of the amazing things children really funny things, but things yes. Just makes you stop and think and go, Oh, my gosh, you're seeing the world in such a different way to me and it's wonderful. You know, it might pull yourself back of seeing this whole you know, where they're oblivious of so much stuff and it's wonderful love to be able to be like that again. Be overawed by all these big things that are happening and just be concentrating on this. This crayons not not the crown the next sharpening biggest thing in my world right now is to get that sharpener, or I'm not gonna be able to do what I need to do you know, just Yeah. Oh, just living so simply and in the moment, in the moment, not worrying about not worrying about you know, the possible trials that will come when they're teenagers. I love that they're doing it right. It's beautiful. I love that. Do you think that that huge desire and drive that you had to get back into your writing when when Gracie was a baby was that some of that born from sort of finding your, I don't wanna say, reclaiming your identity, but perhaps trying to discover who you were at that time. Like, I'm a mom, it's really interesting that mean for pre K, yeah, it was, you know, I had, I had done these little tiny baby steps to stepping away from what I thought was expected of me. So, you know, I thought that my parents were both teachers, while I had attempted to do this little kind of attempted at the end of school to do this, something else, you know, media, TV, whatever, it didn't work out, and I thought I will, you know, what you do as a, as a good member of societies that you work in nine to five job and you it's actually more than nine to five, because they were teachers. So it was kind of, you know, all consuming, and you do that really well and passionately, and then you, you know, you have a partner and you get married and, and buy a house and, you know, go camping and all the things like I was really like, this is what you do with your life. And when I had this opportunity to go to the State Library to work for under secondment kind of thing just for for three months. And suddenly I was like, Oh, wow. Like, the world is not just like a school, you know, like, there are other people and they have better like work life balance than I do, you know, and all of this kind of stuff. So I started unhooking myself a little bit from what I thought was expected of me. And then the shock of being a parent. And, you know, it was we had, we were 10 days late, Gracie was breached out to have an emergency cease, like it was not, it wasn't how we planned it at all. So it was all a bit of a shock. And in the first six months after Grace's birth, I lost two grandparents, both who have whom I was really close to. So it was kind of just a bit of a shitshow. And I think I found the capacity to write things down. Kind of hilly or like that there was this enormous force, you know, that visceral kind of thing, when you when the kids are born, you're kind of leaking, no one tells you how much you're going to leak like you just kind of wet for, I don't know, for six months, maybe longer, you know, like and how much and the sleep deprivation and all of those the just the craziness of the world that you're in, as well as that feeling of being affronted that no one told you it was gonna be like this, even though they attempted to. But no one really, no one really kind of told you and then I think being out in the world, I clearly remember, you know, I had that I had a year's worth of maternity leave. And I remember like, I don't know, go into the park or something immediate friend for a coffee on a Wednesday, lunchtime and going like, Wednesday, lunchtime is a time in the world where people are not just at their work, like people are out there in the world. And they're doing other things. And I know it sounds really crazy now. But I really did have to deprogram myself to what I thought life was meant to be. And even in that first year after skylark in, you know, and since the mother faults come out, it's still a daily practice of going this is a kind of a life that I've made for myself, that makes me incredibly happy and fulfilled and it does not meet, it does not check all the boxes, like doesn't check the financial box doesn't check, you know, a lot of the boxes, and yet I am so much kind of mentally healthier and happier than I was when I was killing myself trying to you know, be a teacher lot of the writing of the mother fault is about geology as well, I did all of this incredible kind of reading about geology, and I think it is that, um, you know, you kind of, they shift you off, they shift the axis, you know, you kind of it's kind of like and start you're spinning in a in a different kind of direction. I think having having the kids and I don't think, you know, I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that they make you better or wise or anything like that, because I know plenty of incredible humans who are not parents and they are incredibly wise and amazing and have kind of lived the full breadth of experience. But I think in terms of what it does for you personally is that it kind of just kicks you off where you are, and you have to look at you have to look at everything differently and and in that act of shifting I think I think Matt label or you know if you're lucky enough to have it or at least that space where you're kind of recovering from actually birthing or or having a newborn in any way that because it it so dramatically changes your day to day that you are forced to to reconsider things and often I think it's a real shame like, especially for friends who, particularly the men, who didn't necessarily get any parental leave or things like that, like life just kind of rolled on. And that, that what I'm so grateful for is the big kind of abrupt shift that made me go, Okay. Well, how do I want this to be? You know, how do I want my life to be? And I've got, I've now got a little human on the outside of me, who's also my responsibility. But how do I want our life to look? Yeah, and without that, you probably would never have come to that realization, you would have just kept going along, doing it slowly along exactly. I just wanted to touch on, you mentioned about the mother for having like, the geology. And so the title of the book is that, I'll give you my take on it. Yeah, because I really loved English at school, and I loved analyzing things. And to this day, my sister, it drives me nuts. When we watch movies, I'm always picking up the love that she's in the light. He's higher than her. She's all this sort of, you know, so basically, this is my take on it. And I say, again, I haven't read it. So I can't say, but it's, to me, it's two things, right? It's the fault. As in fault, as in the mother does things wrong, whatever, you know, no, one's perfect. Finding your way, whatever. And then the fault of like, the geology, like the fault lines of the things that move the earth, sort of Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Absolutely perfect. And it's not, um, it's not a technical one, someone who did a read for me at one stage was like, Is this a technical term? Like the greatest, you know, fault line? And I said, No, I totally just made it up. But in terms of, but yes, absolutely refers to that. But the funniest thing was that when I kind of got to it, and and it is that one of those beautiful things we I, I came up with the title myself, because often, you know, often publicy and you know, the publisher will do a title for you, because the one that you've got is shocking. But um, so I did come up with it myself. And I called my mom. And I was like, Ma'am, I've got it. I think I've got the titles of calling the mother felt. And she said, Oh, you can't call it that. And I said, why? And she said, Ah, because it's always the mother's fault. Like people associate those words together all the time. And I was like, Yeah, I know. Like, that's the point. And so many people have said, booksellers, particularly that like, women will comment on it, whether or not they buy it, and sometimes they do, but they will comment on the phrasing of it, because, and, and it provokes a lot of feelings. And I think that I think, you know, we love to a fault. As well as all of that guilt stuff about, you know, me in the book, you know, is kind of like running across the country, you know, escaping from the government, these shady government forces who are looking after her looking after the kids, and she's still wearing, like, oh, maybe we've had takeaway too much this week, like, you know, you know, because that is, that is how the brain works, you know, that you're, you're in absolute kind of danger mode. And the other thing is that, you know, when, when I won't give away the ending in the book, the part that I often read out, too, is that towards the end of the book, when MIM kind of works out what her husband's been up to, and she's really cross and she says, You know, I would have liked to be a hero too, but I was at school pickup, you know, and that, that in the end is what happens to us, you know, like, that is, that is literally in a nutshell. Brilliant, yeah, you know, that you you could do anything you could do you could be anything, you know, that this the possibility of what we have available to us. And of course, part of that is also being a parent and, and that the possibilities that are opened up with that, and the kinds of highs of our our extraordinary, but also the day to day logistics of it are just shit. You know, they just really, and I'm sure some people enjoy it, but I do not. And I know lots of people who do not, and they take up time and brain space and energy and and if there was one thing that I think kind of delicious thing that came out of COVID and lock downs is this tendency, which I hope we can try and hold on to which is to say, okay, maybe we can just have a fire in the backyard on Wednesday night and not do 18 afterschool activities and go to every party and say yes, they have We think maybe we can just, you know, hold on to a little bit less to think that it's enough the way that we're doing things. And then we have space for those other big, crazy wild possibilities that we want for ourselves or for our families. That would be a nice thing. I think I totally, totally agree with that. I can recommend a book which I just listened to on as an audio book. It's called 4000 weeks. Oliver Berkman, I think his name is. And the premise is, if we live to AD, that's what we've got 4000 weeks, that's only, you know, 4000, Saturday nights, 4000, Sunday mornings, and it was kind of like, it was very confronting when I first started listening to it, but his premise is, you know, it's limited, it's finite our time here. So you got to be when you can't do everything. And we think we've been fed this lie that we can, particularly women, particularly in the last 20 years, you can do everything you can have you agree, you can be kids, you can look amazing, your house can look amazing. You can see all your friends, you can have a great marriage, like bullshit. Yeah, you actually just cannot get to doing this. Yeah. It's impossible. It is impossible. And, you know, the book, I keep saying to my partner, you know, like, it's changed my life. He's like, your only two days in my blog post finishing the book. So just, maybe it hasn't changed your life yet. But I feel like it's got the capacity to have I keep reminding myself like, you know, I'm 40. Now like, that's it. I'm halfway through my 4000 weeks, like, come on, what are you going to do with the rest of them? You know, make them count? Can I ask I don't know if this is a sacred or not, but does mean get another book about it? Does she? Does she ever come back? You know, what she not at this stage? Lots of people were super duper interested in that, because it's left on a bit of a cliffhanger. Oh, hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. I hadn't I hadn't planned there to be and hopefully. Yeah, I can't, I can't make any large announcements about such things. But hopefully, hopefully she gets a turn to, you know, be adapted into screen in some way. Oh, yes, but not that I would say anything about that. But hopefully, that's something that happens. I love this podcast because I find out things about other artistic pursuits that I know nothing about. So tell me how, when you write a book, do you then have to go you have to go find someone to publish it for you. You have to send it off to lots of people and stuff. Well, essentially, what we're how it works, that that's essentially how it works. One of the one of the great lucky breaks of my life is that when I was starting the course that I did the writing course at RMIT, I started writing skylarking as part of, you know, subject to their novel subject. And I actually managed to get that picked up by a publisher before it was finished. So it's very rare that that happens. And that happened. Which was incredible. And since then I've got an agent. So in Australia in particular, definitely in the overseas, the best thing to do is to find a literary agent, if one can you know, I mean, the other thing about it that's been so strange, is you kind of think, oh yeah, I got my first book published. And now I'm just gonna get books published. Like, that's the way it rolls. And of course, that doesn't happen either. Like every single one is still, you know, has to be great. It has to be ready to be published, it has to there has to be space in the market, there has to be all those other you know, everything has to kind of align and combined. So that's why so often, you know, writers in this country, in on average $12,000 A year from their writing, like it's ridiculous. I mean, there's a few outliers, but that's why so often they've got all the other hustles that they have, whether or not they're in writing, like any artists in this country, in fact, because we're so ridiculously and chronically underfunded and undervalued. But you know, that's why having this little bit of time where it has been, I have been able to do it because I got an advance for the book. So I have been able to just focus on writing and feel validated that I don't also have to take on every teaching gig and every workshop key you know, and because that's, that's really hard and that's the other side of the you know, Being an art monster, or, you know, being creative is that then you've got to also manage your own business, about that. And all everything that that comes along with that, which I think often too, is not instinctively where an artist strengths might be. Yeah, yeah. And so yeah, it's very hot, you know, and we want to collaborate, and we, and we want to do all the things and we want to be excited. And it's really hard to kind of insert yourself in there and say, Actually, but hang on, am I being paid for this? Or Hang on? How many hours? Is this gonna take me? Um, one of the things that one of my gangs do have women all have, we're all right, as we're all parents. And at certain times, we've written each other's like, hardcore emails for each other. Whether we're saying, no, actually, we need to be paid more than that, or this is how much I'm charging, because it's still so instinctively hard to do it yourself. I'm getting better at it. But it's still really hard to do it. To do it yourself. Yeah, so the business side of it is just an absolute mess. But I must say that having a my incredible agent on board now. And she's amazing, and she just no bullshit. And she does the, the bits that I both don't understand. And I have no energy for and she lets me in, which protects the time that I have then to write, which is what soulmates? Absolutely. Wow, that's awesome. So because you've written because, like you said, about getting your advance is that because you sorry, if I'm Hope I'm not being too personal. Like, no, no, go ask. This is what we should be doing. We should be talking about the business stuff. Yeah, really? Yeah. So did you have to present the idea for the book? And then they were so we really liked this. So we're gonna give you the funds to give you the time and space to create it? Yeah, what often happens is that you'll get sued by Agent took the mother fold out and took it to various publishers, and then the publishers all kind of, you know, I was in the fortunate spot to kind of have a number of bids in from different publishers. So then you kind of talk about it, you talk to everyone and see who's a good fit. And who's let's be very frank, who's got the most money. And at that stage, they'll often say, so people will often get contracted in a two book deal or a three book deal. So they'll say, What have you got next. And hilariously, we were off, and we were doing a trip around Australia to visit our mates who live up in the Kimberley. So we take him through, you know, eight weeks off, put the camper trailer on, we were way out in this remote community had very little phone reception. And I'm trying to like pitch my new book, which I hadn't written a word of. The second book is cut, it's kind of a little bit of this, it's kind of a little bit that so that's often what happens is that you kind of pitch a concept or, and some people really don't like being contracted, like some writers will say, Oh, the pressure of having a contract hanging over my head for the next book is too much. I can't write like that. I'm a bit of a deadline person. So I kind of like it. Having said that, I've already missed my deadline. So that's that's the way things go to. So I wanted to ask you about your podcast. Yes. The first time. It's funny. Do you get this a lot when people google it, they think it's about something else? Yes, yes. Yes, we do. We do. And in fact, there is another one which is about the which came after us. And of course, now we've now it's hilarious, because it's we're forcing we're about to start our fifth season next year. And we've also now you know, I'm up to publishing my third book, Katherine's publishing her second book. So the premise at the start was that it was about the first time you publish a book. And because Catherine was about to publish her, so we chat to each other about all the things you know, what do you do for a launch? The kinds of questions you're asking as well, like, how do you find an agent, you know, what's meant to cost? As well as interviewing Australian writers about their kind of the first time they published a book and what they've learned since which is, which has been nice. Yeah, cool. So you're gonna change the show to the third time that you've heard? Yeah, I know, we were like the first and subsequent times. And now we've got such a brand that I feel like we can't change it. But this year, or next year, we're actually going to, we're hoping to focus we got some really kind of, I talked to Maggie Chipstead, US writer who was shortlisted for the Booker Prize this year, and, you know, getting Helen Garner to speak, you know, we've kind of been begging our friends in the first season to like, Well, you talk to us to now. You know, all these books arrive every day the publishers are out. We get pitches all the time, we can't possibly fit on everyone who, you know, we've been asked to have. So it's this real switch. But you know, a bit like you I think I just I'm, I'm so obsessed and curious about how other people do the thing that they do and how they manage To make it work, and I'm like a bow burden. So I saw I still little bits of everyone's processes and ideas. And, and I just think it's incredibly, it's incredibly interesting. It's incredibly interesting to have those conversations with people. And, and also, I don't think I realized Katherine actually was at an event the other night, and she messaged me afterward. And she said, people really listened to us, like people really came up and said, like, it's really helpful. I really, you know, your voice is so familiar. And I think the beauty now of podcasting, and you would know this is that it feels you know, you forget that however, many people are going to download it later. And you just, you're very, you're sitting often now in your own home, and you're very intimate, and you're very frank. And then you forget sometimes, what you've said, when someone comes up to you are random, and oh, I loved what you said about this about your marriage. I'm like, shit, and I say that. But yeah, you know, I I've become, yeah, I've become really digital. I mean, my dream, my dream is that I get to write books. And then someone on the ABC gives me a show. And I can just talk to creatives about what they do. You know, and someone can pay me to do it. That's the That's the dream. Really, let's be frank Ellison. That is, that's my train. That's what I want to happen. That is so good. I love that anyone listening for the AV? Yeah. Give us by the show. I found the same thing. I, I found that mostly why I started this is I needed to find out other people's opinions on how not necessarily how to do the physical stuff. Because everyone's so different in there are different, you know, requirements or whatever, but how to change my perception about stuff because I was finding I was getting really challenged, being interrupted and that kind of thing, like, you know, having to having to look at things in a different way and needing to for my own sake, because it was I was just going to have to stop creating, because I just was too wound up and too, you know, almost resentful. That sounds horrible. Yes. But yeah, so I've really enjoyed hearing how other people do it how how they think about things. Yes. And how they, how they still meet their needs, but not at the expense of their own mothering. Yeah, so yeah, I've just love it. I think it's the range too, don't you think Allison that like I am? Have you read the divided heart? Oh, I interview? Yes. You have you? Yes, of course you did. You interviewed Rachel. That's how I knew about your podcast. You know, like, that was such a profound book. For me. I got that really early because someone recommended it to me. And then since then, I've read lots of this and and right, who's a writer, her extraordinary book on being a mother and all this, there's heaps, there's heaps and, and often you're drawn to those ones, too. Like I read all of them, for people who aren't parents as well. But I think it's the range of going, well, this person did it like that. And then this person didn't like that. It's so permission giving when you go, okay, I can be away from my children, and do my work that way. Or I can do it amidst the interruptions. And I can write a chapter on my phone while I'm doing, you know, there's no right way to do it. And I think in the end, sometimes I worry about my obsession with reading about other people's process, but then I'm like, no, because the more you read, the more expensive your idea of what it can be is. And yeah, so I'm totally there with you. It's made my practice so much better. And which is why it's so important that you know, and so amazing in such a generous kind of actor that you that you do this podcast, too, I think because it is. It's that talking about the unspoken or which, which, you know, there were there were people. Yeah, there were definitely people who, who let me know, I'll always remember a gorgeous friend, Amy, who messaged me on day three and said you might start crying today. And that's okay. And I have since then, I have always sent that message to people, you know, to because I was like, that was so incredibly helpful, that she told me that, you know, and then and I think that there is this act of and you have to know when to say it because you don't want to burst that gorgeous, pregnant, first time pregnancy bubble either for people but the sharing of stories and the way that women in particular share stories. What a lifeline that is. Oh, that's that's happened. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more and I think the rise of Social media of this showing this perfection this, you know, this beautiful staged photo like we're talking about the Christmas tree, you know? Yeah. Is that really reality? You know? Or if you've got that Christmas tree hidden in a different room where no one can tell you why can't we just be honest with each other and just getting rolled out like don't be afraid to, to share and I think that would help so much not just in, like what we've talked about, but also like the whole mental health thing like actually saying, Yeah, I had a lot of trouble. And now I'm going to use that to help everybody else. Yeah, it's just so powerful. And it's not incredibly ashamed often scared of and embarrassed about, you know, it's laugh and it's reality. And the more we talk about it, the better. No, absolutely. I get a bit precious I think sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. And scared, scared. Scared of how scared of what people will think, you know, I can say this as a 40 something year old, but there's no way I would have said this 20 years ago, you know, yeah, like we're talking right back at the beginning about this judgment. Yeah, absolutely. What he has to start thinking like a 40 year old woman. Yes, we actually, oh, that's. So basically, I was gonna ask, what you've got coming up. I've actually got a couple of, I've got some great workshops that I'm teaching in the new year in 2022. And the first one is a kind of a kicking off your creative year. So it's for writers Victoria, I'll send you through the details. But it's a full day online workshop. So people can do it from wherever they are in Australia. And we're looking at it's for emerging, or mid I think it can be for anyone really, but just looking at ways to kind of really kick off the year going, how am I going to make space for my creative work in whatever kind of situation that I'm in that my my work and my family is in? And how I'm going to do that. So that is that's really fun. And yeah, people I mean, people can find I try and keep up to date on socials, I'm having a bit we're having our three weeks at the beach offline, which I'm just so excited and thrilled about. So January's always off. But yeah, podcasts new podcast season, coming up with the first time and then lots of lots of little events in the New Year as well. So and then the book eventually. You know what, now that now that I've spoken to you, I'm gonna read your books. And a big thing for me because I love that well, and you know, if you're if you are into audiobooks, I can highly recommend although I haven't listened to it myself, because it's just too weird and hard to do. But the gorgeous Claudia Karvan read the mother fault for Audible. Yeah, or audio book or whatever. And I got to talk to her quite a bit. She's really into it. And everyone who I know who's read it that way, has loved it. So that might be a way that works for you. That is definitely something I can do. Thank good. That's okay. That's it's been such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you. So, so lovely speaking to you, Allison. I feel like that's like been a debrief as well as just a little therapy session. Thank you as Digby, it was lovely to meet you, too. Are you in the middle of your first publishing experience long to get a deal for already been there and want to know how others experienced it? Maybe you're a writer, a reader, a lover of Australian fiction, this podcast is for you. Here's the deal. Adams first book, the helpline is hitting shelves in Australia very soon. And she has got some questions. Like how do I plan a launch party? What else should I expect? In the Green Room? If I get invited to a festival? Will I get invited to a festival? What if I get invited to a festival and no one shows up? Like my day job? Is my life gonna change? What does it feel like to have a bad review? Do I need to get my nails done to match my book cover? Should I be on Twitter more? And even though my first book skylarking came out a couple of years ago, and I can give Katherine some advice already has lots of our experiences that are vastly different. So we thought we'd cast the net a little wider. And ask some other Australian writers about that first time. I just ticked that box novel and started this incredible adventure. It's great to have a deadline to work towards you know, there's this tendency to obviously procrastinate or not even procrastinate. Just keep reworking and reworking and never really deciding that it's finished never pressing them and I distinctly remember the moment I got the idea for what With become the first novel, that moment is vivid in my mind full of those things had a choice, I write the story down or I go completely mad that first shortlisting that you get is just this amazing validation. And for some reason, it tends to happen when you're at your lowest point. And it always just kind of buoys you up, and allows you to keep going. There's three parts to being an artist of any sort, there's talent, there's hard work, and the third one ever forgets as luck, good luck, the lucky chance comes and you're not ready for your lucky chance, you're not gonna make it either. In each episode, we'll ask a writer to come clean on all the fields and the logistics of their first time, and will hone in on advice on a particular aspect of the publishing process. I'll also ask Catherine to update us on where she's at with her own adventure into the world of a debut novelist. Whether it's chatting to her editor, getting her social sorted, or speaking to an audience of booksellers, we are taking a bit of a risk here. We want to take you behind the scenes of the hype, and the instant deliciousness of the debut Experience and find out all the lows along with the highs. We're asking our guests to be candid, and to give us the warts and all of how it feels. And we don't know how it's gonna play out. But Katherine, Will her book end up on billboards at the airport? Will she hit the coveted top 10 On release? Will Hollywood come knocking? Or will As one writer attests the experience all be a little anticlimactic? subscribe via iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts and check out our website, the first time podcast.com or connect with us via Twitter and Instagram at the first time pod. And let us know about your first time and the questions you want answered. We look forward to getting into your ears. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mom

Beth Stephen Australian singer + songwriter S2 Ep74 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and itunes/Apple podcasts I am very excited to welcome to the podcast today Beth Stephen, a singer, songwriter and mother of 2 from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the Teeny Tiny Stevies. Beth grew up in a very musical family, her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to a gig and listening to her parents band rehearse. In her teenage years Beth and her sister Byll decided to start their own indie-folk group, The Little Stevies and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria playing their own songs. (The girls actually still release music as The Little Stevies) In 2015, inspired by the need to teach Byll’s three-year-old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children’s songs. What began as a side-hobby became so fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and The Teeny Tiny Stevies were born. Before they knew it, their debut album ‘Useful Songs for Little People’ had become a word-of-mouth sensation around Australia. They’ve since released 4 albums through ABC Music, won both the ARIA Award and AIR Award for ‘Best Children’s Album’ in 2020, been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street’s online channel in the US, and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book, released in December 2021, was nominated for the 2022 ABIA Best Children’s Book Award. They’ve also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC KIDS TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC KIDS iView app. And at the time of recording this, the girls are up for another ARIA Award for their album How to Be Creative, the winners announced this week. Beth website Podcast - instagram / website Tiny Tiny Stevie's music appears in today's episode with permission via my APRA AMCOS Online Mini Licence Agreement When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children, mum guilt, how mums give themselves time to create within the role of mothering, and the value that mothers and others place on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discussed in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded on. Thank you so much for tuning in. It really is such a pleasure to have you. today. I'm very excited to welcome to the podcast bet Stephen. She's a singer songwriter, and mother of two from Melbourne, Victoria, and one half of the teeny tiny Stevie's Beth grew up in a very musical family. Her parents were working musicians and she has fond memories of seeing her parents all dressed up ready to go to gigs and listen to her parents bands rehearse. In her teenage years, Beth and her sister veal, decided to start their own indie folk group, the little Stevie's and they performed on the folk festival circuit in Victoria, playing their own songs. The girls actually still released music as the little steamies in 2015, inspired by the need to teach Bill's three year old about the challenges of toilet training, the sisters started playing around writing children's songs. What began as a side hobby became so much fun and effective that they decided on a complete change of direction and the teeny tiny Stevie's were born. Before they knew it, their debut album, useful songs for little people had become a word of mouth sensation around Australia. They've since released four albums through ABC music won both the ARIA Award and the air award for best children's album in 2020. They've been commissioned to write music for Sesame Street's online channel in the US and signed a book deal with HarperCollins. Their first book released in December 2021 was nominated for the 2022 Abia Best Children's Book Award. They've also licensed 18 animated music videos to ABC Kids TV, which have been played over 21 million times on the ABC Kids IP app. And at the time of this recording, the girls are up for another ARIA award for their album how to be creative in the 2022 areas. The winners will be announced this week. The teeny tiny Stevie's music appears today with permission by my APRA m cos online mini licensing agreement. Thank you so much for listening. I really hope you enjoyed today's chat. When it's time to end everything is I lay down my head say good night. Thanks so much for coming on today, Beth. It's an absolute pleasure to welcome me and to meet you as well. Alison, it's an absolute delight to be here. Thank you. You are a little bit of a famous person, you and your sister. Are we are we famous, you're famous. I don't know that. I did just do like a heap of shows at the Opera House. We did. And my goodness, have we been telling everybody because it's not every day that you get to perform at such such an amazing venue. And so look, we may never be able to do it again. But hopefully we do. So I think I'm starting to go through life with that sort of mind frame which which I'm quite enjoying it just going enjoy this as it may be the last time which has been actually really great to just really lean into enjoying things as much as you can. Yeah, that's thing isn't it? Because sometimes we can take things for granted in the moment. It's just happening. But yeah, if you can sort of stop and go actually, yes, I'm going to experience this fully and and there's nothing wrong with telling people to because you can be really proud of yourself you know to sing at the Opera House is a pretty big achievement. So yeah, I quite enjoyed the the secret of skates. You know, bringing the ring what was it the physio Are you because I've just done some shows of the opera house? Yes. And I should ask you that, you know, credit to my sister bill, my big sister bill. She is quite the comedic talent. And look, she she entertains me as much as she entertains. Everybody else who follows follows us on on the socials. You get the feeling she quite enjoys doing that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think it could be a throwback to a few drama. Training that she did. I remember going to hear VCA drama, final performance, and it was quite quite entertaining and amusing outside the UK. So using skills in different parts of life. So as good. So tell our listeners, what you are and who you don't what, sorry, what you do. You do. That is it. You ever said introduction to to yourself and what you are passionate about with your music? Well, as you said, I am a musician and songwriter. And I work with my sister, Bill Stevens Avila. And we are the teeny tiny Stevie's and we started this project maybe six or seven years ago, after we had been playing music together as the little Stevie's since we were teenagers. And we sort of got to the point where Bill was starting to have kids herself. And we just sort of got to the point where we had to start asking ourselves some, you know, difficult, challenging questions, a lot centered around how we're going to keep doing this, if we want to, you know, with the money that we're making at the time, which essentially wasn't really enough. And so the way that life was changing, we sort of had to ask ourselves, those questions of how we were going to do it, what should we do going forward, we still want to keep doing music. And that's when we decided that we wanted to do a bit of a pivot, you know, reinvent ourselves a bit. As you have to do all the time, going through life, when you sort of you find yourself getting stuck a bit, and you sort of have to think about things differently. And that's when we started seeing tiny Stevie's. And we thought, at the time, actually, we were thinking about potentially writing some comedy music, which I feel ridiculous even saying that sentence, because I'm not, not the naturally funny one. But I sort of thought, you know, maybe I could be the straight person, you know, again, side by side with Bill and I should be the funny man. And we did actually, you know, try and write some music like that. But then the other thing that we were exploring was trying to write some kid songs. And I sort of, say, Kids Songs in quotation marks, because I guess, the journey that the team science babies has been on, and what we have discovered about ourselves, and what we like to do, and our skill set is that it's not specifically for kids, it's for families. And we like to write about things that can be great conversation starters, within the household and within, you know, social settings and, and friendship circles. So yeah, and really, you know, over the last six or seven years, it's just gone from strength to strength, and it has definitely become the main thing now that we do, which is incredible. I never really thought that. I mean, I certainly hoped and dreamed that music would become the main thing that was has always been the dream. But, you know, for it to actually become that that's pretty special. So, you know, going back to trading each thing that we do, as you know, this could be the last time so we're definitely going to enjoy it. I think maybe those two things are connected a bit of just going off got to pinch ourselves. Sometimes we get to do all this amazing stuff. Yeah, it's fantastic. I love speaking to people who have have made their love into what they do every day. I think it's just wonderful. It's just, it's such a fulfilling life to have, like, I can't, like not speaking from experience with the music side of things, but the job that I have with children I absolutely adore. And I'm so lucky that I do it every day. And I sometimes think that I think God I get paid to do this, like, yeah, I would do it anyway. You know what I mean? Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it? Fortunately, or unfortunately, you do it anyway. And we would do it anyway, at least, you know, if I think if you do have something that you're just driven by and so passionate about, you will you will fight for it and you will do it no matter what. in some capacity, you know, not always in the capacity that you would hope. Hope see, because obviously there are lots of things in life that can that impact that. But yeah, it's uh, yeah, fortunate later on unfortunately, forget on the day. Yeah, yeah in my mind in my head so your sister, how how many you guys twins? Or is there a bit of an age gap? Sorry, I'm not really sure. No, that's okay. Looking with Bill was listening she she'd love that comment that you just made? No, we're not twins. But you are probably the third person that's asked that question this week. Oh, I think is a huge four years older than I but she just doesn't seem to age. So somehow she managed to get that really fantastic, Jane. Yeah, that's actually I can, I can appreciate what you're saying. Because my sister and I, I'm two and a half years older, but for years, you know, and even now, sometimes people will get us confused because they're speaking voices and our singing voices are almost identical. And I used to trick people on the phone when we were younger. That who they're talking to, and my sister, the she used to work in our family, plant nursery, and people would see me down the street and ask me questions about their Protoss drums or their whatever's and I just, I don't like to embarrass people like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I'm not Emma, I just sort of play along. Oh, gosh, oh, it was because I just I felt I wouldn't do it now. But I felt really bad for the person. And I'll pop into the nursery, and I'll help you in. And then you find yourself into doping. You're like, Oh, yeah. And I don't want to have to be like, Emma, there's a person gonna come in and think that they've already spoken to you. So get ready, you know? Yeah. I mean, did you girls ever do stuff like that? Like, cheeky things? Do you know what I actually don't think we did? I don't have any memories of it. Which, that sounds very boring. I know. Now you sound like fun. Very fun. So you girls have always sang together? Is this been a thing that's happened right from the present? As you know, for as long as you can remember? Absolutely. Yeah. So our parents were musicians, full time musicians for a good period of time in their working life. So certainly, as a little kids, you know, we as young kids, we saw Mom and Dad, you know, going off to work at night, they would pick up, you know, they'd get all dressed up in their stage view, and then pack their know their bags, and the babysitter would come around, and we, you know, go to bed just after they left. And yeah, that was just lots of strong memories of that. And then lots of big memories of the band coming over to rehearse in the garage. And we would either be, you know, in there listening with them observing everything, I don't know, rolling around on the floor, probably, or in the main house, you know, sort of listening through the baby monitor type scenario. So yeah, I've got really fond memories of all that. So you know, as a household music was always encouraged. Mum and Dad have always been extremely enthusiastic about us taking an interest in it. And I think you know, now that I've got kids in my own, I think probably when we reached those teenage years, when we started to show interest separate from Mum and Dad, and we started to explore things together a bit more. And we kind of discovered each other in our teenage years. Though, I can imagine that they were wrapped, you know, that we just had something to focus that energy into, because I guess, you know, sometimes teenagers can be a bit. You know, you can find yourself a bit lost and distracted. And so I think to have that, yeah, had to have that focus was probably a great thing. You know, maybe they probably weren't so stoked when it became obvious that we were really going to pursue it seriously. In terms of, you know, the money of them probably thinking to themselves, Oh, I don't I don't know if it's the most secure. Most secure Korea, but you know, as parents, it's yeah, it's a hard thing to balance all those feelings, I imagine. Yeah, that's the thing is a lot. I'm going through that with my son at the moment. He's thinking about what he wants to do. And I keep saying choose something that you love. Just pick something you really love. And my husband's a financial planner, and he's going Yeah, but make sure you know, you got enough money. I know it's, it's, yeah, I imagined their hard conversations to have. Yeah, yeah. So did you start learning instruments like formally or do you just pick things up from your parents? I had that sort Okay, both we do Yeah, we both did, you know, formal training on instruments through school, I think that was a bit of a expectation that mum and dad had. But then we also did it just ourselves, you know, at home, pick up picking up the guitars and stuff like that, and started to write songs. But really, you know, learning the guitar, and instruments like that was really just a vessel to be able to write songs and start writing songs. And I think at some stage, Mom said to me, she goes up to both of us, but she said, You know, one of the best things that you can do is to just learn an instrument that you can accompany yourself with. So you're not reliant on anybody else. To be able to write and perform your own songs, if that's what you want to do. And that was really great advice. And I'd probably give that year on to anyone else. Because it's great if you can just be self reliant, and then you can collaborate with others. But you know, if there aren't other people to collaborate with, and you can't rely on other people, you can still do the thing that you love. And you can still do it really well. And you don't have to be a superstar on your instrument. You just, it's just handy to be able to, you know, play a few chords. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? And then yeah, as a tool for songwriting, that you've actually got something you can not get you, your chords on, or, you know, he trains and things. Yeah. So can I ask with your parents, with a songwriters, as well, what sort of band did they have? They were, so they did their own original stuff. And they also did a bunch of covers. So I think for them, it was a mixture of the cover work, you know, really paid the bills. And then they also did their original stuff, and sort of kind of integrated the two a lot of the time, and also did separate things within music. So yeah, and when they were younger, before we were on the scene, as kids, they had their separate original groups when they you know, in their early 20s. And they did lots of touring, and you know, had their their own success doing that. And then when they got together as a couple started the new thing. And, and they continue doing that while Bill was a young kid, and then for a little bit when I came along, but I think certainly me as the second child, I sort of burst the dream a little bit, and they got some more reliable jobs, or better paid jobs. If everyone was gentle all the time, everyone would feel so good. I'm jumping into this early in the conversation, but have you found that you've sort of that role modeling of how to balance the two has been useful for you with your own children? Oh, definitely. But I would probably say, only because, you know, I've, I was a kid when my parents were doing this themselves. So there's not really I can't really have a great understanding or, or perspective on that, I guess, now, but what I do have, and what I've had been so lucky to have is Bill, who has who went through it all before me, you know, at least sort of six or seven years before me and because we spend so much time together, and we also have a business together, and we work together in so many different capacities. I've seen that very, very closely what she's gone through. And that's just been hugely beneficial for me. I mean, it's still it's not like having your own kids and going through that yourself. By any means. Yeah, you'll, you'll sort of never really understand that to that level until you're doing it yourself. Because you're always going to have a different experience for someone else. But yeah, to be able to see all those peaks and Trump's very closely was very helpful. I think it made me go in with very low expectations, to be honest. And I think that was quite handy. Yeah, that's true, isn't it? Because I think that's the thing, like, unless you see it, you can have all these wild ideas, like I'm gonna wear the baby while I'm, you know, recording or you know, all these sort of things, and then you just happen to have it happen to you and you go on, that's never gonna work like so at least you sort of had this rough idea of what was perhaps achievable and, and what wasn't. Definitely, and the stress, you know, the stress of, you know, if you're doing here with another person, and you know, there's a partnership or relationship involved, like, what a huge thing. What a huge stress to put on a relationship like that's, it's enormous and it's and it's and it's ongoingly stressful, it's also can be great and beautiful and all of those things, but it's a constant negotiation and compromise and, and just because you talk about one thing once doesn't mean that it's going to remain that way for In the next 20 years, and, you know, you've got to nurture and meet everyone's needs involved is really tricky. Obviously, we all know that. So yeah. 22nd We're in the summer holiday, people rush to get this stuff done. So they can stop and take a break Christmas movies on the TV, Sunday's up close to the tree. So back to you girls in as the little Stevie. So what sort of how old? were you when you first started sort of that project? And what sort of things were you doing with that? So we started when I was 15. And I think Bill had just finished high school. And we, we basically just started applying for folk festivals around Victoria. And we were really lucky to get a couple of opportunities, doing those. And because we'd already started writing some songs, we really just, yeah, we started on the folk festival circuit for those years after that, and we just kind of learnt on the job, you know, which can be can be difficult when you're learning everything in front of an audience. And at that age to like you, I mean, not 15 Is not that old to be getting out there. And, you know, perhaps in a more adult sort of world as well. Yeah, look, it's um, you know, there's, there's so many different aspects to them, is it? I mean, it's, it's just, it's such a steep learning curve, when you are, how can I put this, we've never sort of been a group, you know, or sort of done music where we've just done it at home, in the privacy of our own space for years, and years and years. Before we go and perform it, or share it in front of an audience or with people, it's always been our rally song. Okay, well, I guess we better go and, you know, do something with it, you know, or not, and perform it. And that's, and that's when some of the embarrassing moments can happen when you're literally, you know, you're learning in front of an audience and in front of people. But gosh, you do some quick learning. And, yeah, I think sometimes if you if you spend too much time, just creating at home and sort of not sharing it, and you know, and it's hard to share it because you got to means you got to be vulnerable. And you know, you're putting yourself up for criticism. Yeah, sometimes, then you can sort of risk just never putting anything out and never showing anyone anything, and never been happy with anything as well. And then all of a sudden, so much time can pass. Anyway, so does that mean then you feel really comfortable on stage? Because, you know, literally anything could happen, anything could go wrong. And you're okay with that? Oh, no, I wouldn't say I'm okay with that. Okay. No, I like I know, I still get nervous all the time. And we still get nervous all the time. If, yeah, if there was a there was a video sort of videoing us when we get off stage every time Oh, my goodness, it would be just so embarrassing. Witnessing the conversations that we have, like, it's you know, I'll say isn't it's all literally let's just jump into just like talking about all the things that we you know, all the things we did wrong and all the mistakes that we made and oh, oh, what do you think they thought when we said this or did that and It'd be terrible if if, if people actually knew that, you know, the critique that we put ourselves through after we got off stage. But look I just mentioned i i just love performing. I love it so much. And Bill does too. So yeah, we just gotta get out there and do it. Hmm. So what aspects of performing Do you love the most when you say you really love it? What what do you look forward to? For a gig? Well, I love singing like I love the action of seeing the physical action of singing and it's you probably feel the same way or just it just makes you feel so joyous you know? It's a it really there's I don't know it's like exercising it just makes you feel incredible as endorphins go Yeah, you know mentally and physically so I think just that alone, I love the feeling that I get whilst doing it and after but I also love I love this is going to probably sound like I'm sort of I love the sort of validation or or positive affirmation and look, I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that. I think everyone enjoys you know, getting positive feedback and but you know, we've been so If you go and someone comes up after a show or emails us and says, I've connected, or this, these lyrics that you wrote, have made me feel like this, or this has been my life experience, you have just summed that up so beautifully. You know, and they said something deeply personal about themselves, because they heard something that you've written like that is beyond special. And, you know, that's just, yeah, that makes you keep going. Because you're just like, wow, I don't I'm not sure. I think anything gets much better than this. Yeah, that is pretty awesome, isn't it? It's sort of I liken it to, it will never happen to me on this scale. But you know, when you're at the concerts and the famous people, they hold out the mic, and everyone knows the words, it's like that, yeah. Oh, you get it, you get me like, yeah, resonating with something that I'm putting out there. And that that is hugely validating? It's sort of, I mean, I know, we don't necessarily do our art for that reason. But it's a lovely, sort of side thing of that, that, that you're connecting with people, you know, and if you can't, yeah, you can reach somebody who might get so much out of what you're sharing like that, that example you gave. And it's so special, it is an awesome feeling. It is awesome. And, and we all know what it's like to have another person write a song. And for us to feel like there's just something up for us, and how special that is to be on the other side of things. Yeah, and there's so many people that I wish that I could say that to, you know, if I saw them in a physical sense that I just love to say, how much of an impact they've had on me. Which Yeah, now when I'm saying that loud, I should just do that more often. Through the wonders of social media, we actually have access to people we for I don't know, I used to write fan mail and post it off into the nether and you know, oh, that's so good. You remember the old Smash Hits magazine? Back? Yes. It was like, you know, they'd have their their fan mail address. And I'm swear, no one ever got those letters. But now you can literally just message someone and say, You're awesome. Yeah, it's pretty great, isn't it? Yeah. I really love that. This is totally off topic. But the other day, you know, Constantino, that magician? He's like, the grand illusion. Oh, yes. Yeah, he came to me at Gambia. And that was a big deal. Because we're just, you know, a little country town in the middle of Adelaide. And afterwards, because, you know, when you're, when you're in the know, you know, where the stage door is, and, you know, roughly how long people take to come out. So, my little, my little seven year old, he's a massive fan. He's got his books, you know, he's into him. And I said, Come on, let's wait till he comes out. And he's like, Oh, really, I said yet. It'll only be like half an hour. And it was only us and one other group of people were there. And he came out. And I said to him, I said, Because and Taylor said, what you're doing, you know, he writes books for kids with reading difficulties or ADHD dyslexia. Yeah, he went through that as a kid. And I said to him, thank you so much for what you're doing for the kids. Yeah. And he was so chuffed that did be had his book. You know, I think that meant that meant so much to him. You know, everyone loves his show, you know, he knows that everyone thinks he's amazing, but I think that connection with a child who was really into his stuff, and I made sure I told him because I'm like, This is great, like, yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm sure he appreciated that. And I can I can get a bit fangirl sometimes. And you will. It's hard to find the words though, isn't it? It is literally I don't know one day I met Kate soprano because my sister and I were this is really random store I don't know why I'm coming out with this. But we were at this corporate gig corporate event in on the Gold Coast for for plant nursery. And she just happened to be the the entertainment and so she was she called for people to come up sage singer backing track they didn't have the mics turned on so we were like off for God's sakes then we can sing we can sing proper backing but you know they had the microphone. And when I when I walked off I all I could say was I love you so much. It was just so embarrassed. I just love you so much and she's probably thinking God Who are these drunk women up on stage but anyway, I'm digressing now. These I don't go in my pants when I saw this this time you saying six or seven years ago you guys decided to do you change the direction And I'm really intrigued to know how you were received initially. And I don't want to I'm not comparing you to the wiggles at all, because you're completely different. The depth and the thought that goes into what you write and what you share is phenomenal. And so I'm just wondering, like, how, how it went down, as he would just ask that question, I was thinking to myself, Oh, my gosh, I wish I can maybe I recall. Sounds like a long time ago now. But look, I feel I feel as though probably for us, during the whole time that we've been doing music stuff. Sometimes, and often we have you know, we've we've written something, or we've taken a sort of decided that we take these kind of an approach. Yeah, we're even thinking to ourselves, Well, I'm not sure how this is gonna be received. But it feels right, it feels like the right thing to do. And she feels like the right thing to do for us. I think when we started, we definitely knew what we didn't want to do. And we had a pretty clear vision of what we did want to do what we didn't want to do. And we want to keep performing music alive, in pretty much the same capacity of what we're doing with the little Stevie's, which is really just a live band. Wearing what we would normally wear on stage, playing our instruments. But yeah, we weren't interested in doing anything else other than that. And yeah, there was there was probably a lot of questions around though I don't know, if that's going to necessarily been engaging enough. Or so there was a bit of, there was definitely some trial and error for sure. I think one of the first gigs that we did, as a team timings was at a festival, it was a festival slot. And, you know, we kind of like even scripted a bit of dialogue in between the songs, and, and sort of tried to, like, you know, order the songs to tell a bit of a story. And after we came on stage, that time we were, it was very obvious. We're just like, oh, no, this is not, this is not what we want to do. But this didn't work. And it was, unfortunately, you have to live through some things like that, to really realize what you don't want to do, and what's not going to work. So there was a bit of that in the first instance. And also, when the first few songs that we wrote, you know, having really young kids to try them on, as well was extremely valuable. You know, Bill's eldest child at the time was three, and we started with a toilet training song. And the rainbow song, they were one of the two of the first songs that we wrote. And they'll really taken very well and received very well by him. So, so then that gives you confidence to keep going. So yeah, having that immediate feedback from kids was really valuable. And it just sort of developed from there to be honest. Green roughly being beans, celery and apples, spinach, peas and lettuce, I. I am on my way. I mean, you've written to my favorite ones that the I'm the boss of mind, body, that's one that really gets stuck in my head. I really like that one. And you've written songs by song about COVID about staying home? Like do you basically look at what's happening? And what's important to you, and maybe look at your kids and see what's happening with them. And that's where your inspiration comes from? Yeah, has in the past the first three albums that we did useful, helpful, thoughtful songs, or little people, they were pretty much mostly, the ideas are sort of crowd sourced. So I mean, the first, the first, like the first step, and we came up with those things ourselves. And then the second two, we put a call out and we said to parents and educators and carers what, what what would be helpful to have songs written about, and they gave us lots of ideas, and people were really, really engaged with that, which was awesome. And lots of the same things started getting mentioned. So the ones that were repeatedly mentioned, were like, well, obviously, there's a huge need, and desire for a song about this. So then we just give it our best go at writing about that particular theme and, and I should sort of emphasize the fact that it's, yeah, it's the the lyrical process is a long process. And all the lyrics are very sort of, you know, scrutinized by by ourselves and so there's Yeah, it's not a it's not a quick job, the lyrics because you know, We also know that your lyrics are incredibly powerful and, and kids, in particular, listen to things on repeat. And again and again and again and again. You know, I'm an adult that listens to things on repeat to I got, I bought everyone around me with just watching their same movies and the same TV show that I, you know, I think for some people that gives a lot of comfort to, you know, repeatedly listen and watch and hear things. So, yeah, we're just we're just very much very aware of that. So we want to make sure that we put a lot of thought into them. Hmm, that's a really good point. Speaking of things being on repeat, I've had Hamilton the Hamilton musical only my car for about three years now. The other day, we finally saw the actual stage show. So that was nice. So now we've moved on to something else. But yeah, you had your flight? Yes, I've had the fix now. And it's funny because now I've seen the stage show that Australian actors do the nuances and the intervene to nation a slightly different and so now when I listened to the state the the I called Broadway, I'm like, Oh, that's not how it went. Jason era didn't do it like that. You know, everything. Yeah, the older days out. But I do that, too. I get fixated on things. Or the Beatles. I'm back on the Beatles now. Listen to this same album, but it never gets old. You just know it doesn't. They will never get out. Ever. Thank goodness. One male body, male body? I am. So with you guys with your singing with your harmonies and stuff, have you always just naturally like, I guess I'm comparing it to my sister and I like our voices is she's slightly lower than me and I go slightly higher, but in that general with both our toes, but I can go slightly up a bit. And so I've always just taken the higher harmony. Do you guys have like a? What's the word, a system or a method that works for you? I mean, I think when we were kids bill would always take the harmony just because she was always much better than me. I've been able to pitch in arrange harmonies, she's got a real real knack for it. But yeah, giving myself a bit of credit to as I've become an adult and also grown and developed, I think. Yeah, I think I think we're both pretty good at doing that now and and we both just, you know, take it into singing lead singing harmony. And it's really fun. Keeps it really interesting, huh? Do you guys have like, again, I'm comparing to myself like a sort of an invisible, like connection of communication when you're on stage, like, someone might move their eyebrow a little bit or look a certain way. And the other person goes, Oh, crap, that bit, you know, like you have this this way of communicating with each other without anyone really knowing. Yeah, I think so. Although, although, I've often told that I think that I'm smiling to my bandmates interview on stage. And then they go on stage saying that you're just looking at us like this the whole time. Like I've done something wrong. No, I was just smiling at you like I'm really having fun. So, so there is communication there. I'm not sure if we're really receiving the correct communication, but the other ones trying to communicate all the time. But we think we're communicating. But look, in terms of singing the actual, you know, the actual singing that we Yeah, we're, because we've been doing it for so long together. I think we're pretty good at predicting what the other one is going to do. And to be able to match each other and shadow each other and that type of thing. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't relate to that. It's like, sometimes when we've been performing like, we both start singing the tune or something. And for Amelie say it'll like literally a millisecond. And then it'll be like, Oh, she is in the hammock, like, and it's like, watching would ever get that we've just stuffed up. Yeah, but yeah, exactly. So quickly. And so intuitively. It's so much fun. I just like we did a wedding just the other week. And we hadn't been together for so long because of COVID. And just, I really pulled back from gigs, but we did this wedding and we're just sitting there. Obviously, it's so fun. You know, we've forgotten so lovely. And it was so great. Yeah, it was so lovely. It was a great was great fun. They had the the photo booth right next to us though, so it was like laughing and I'm like him as always on my left. I've got to have her in my left ear. I don't know why it's just a really, it's a quick that I have so I've tried to shut out this site and listen to her on so I'm sure why that's so nice that you said those things out loud. And you acknowledge the fact that it was really fun. Because it is. And I feel like I'm really guilty of not doing that enough. And I'm trying to do that a bit more. Over just yeah, really acknowledge and verbalize when something's really fun when you're really enjoying doing something with another person, so they know so they know that you're really enjoying this time that you're spending together. Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Yeah. But that doesn't make it easy. Nothing says everything. starts again. So back on to your your children. How many kids do you have? So we've got two kids. We've got a four year old and a nine month old. Oh, little tracker. Yeah. So yes. Again, back to you. Your stories on Instagram. How hard is it really traveling with the kids? Like, there was a funny, funny, one of like, pushing the pram and there's things hanging off every single like, on the frame? And, you know, that is that literally the realities of going on tour with the kids? Oh, yeah, absolutely. And look, we, I wouldn't say that we it's it for our collective kids to come away with us. Because as we can all hopefully agree, it's so hard to work and parent at the same time. And when you're trying to do both at the same time, inevitably, something something somewhere, you don't do it as good a job as you could, if you're not doing the two at the same time. So, so yeah, it's this year, my baby has come away with this a lot, because she's been so young, hopefully into the future. That won't necessarily be their regular thing. But again, you know, each each, every few months, you know, we sort of need to look at things again. And say and sort of went through all the different commitments that have come up. Because, you know, all the touring commitments that we've had this year has been a lot more intense than previous years. So and our circumstances have changed again, you know, family wise. So yeah, it's just a constant juggle and a constant. Yeah, just renegotiation? Yeah, that's it, isn't it? Because the children are always growing? Stages? Yeah, the needs are changing and what they what they're capable of, or what you're capable of doing with their mare. And, you know, yeah, it's always been, like constant reassessment. Yeah. Yeah. What I want to ask you about are not just on that for a change tab. So where have you Where have you been this year? So far? What what's you've been your sort of, I don't want to say your schedule, your tour schedule. You've been we have some places you've Oh, my gosh, we've been everywhere. We have been. We've been to most states this year already. And we're going and we're just continuing to do more over the next six, six to 12 months. So we've been all around New South Wales and Northern Territory went there for the first time this year, which was amazing. All around Victoria, South Australia. We're going all around Queensland, over January this year. So yeah, just just everywhere, and look, the nature of our music, because it's for kids and families. It's mostly weekend and school holiday work, where we do most of our touring. And look, because you know, my partner and I do very different things. So he has a weekday job, pretty standard office hours, and then I'm doing weekends and school holidays. That does work quite well. And I don't know, I just don't know how people who are working in the same industry. They manage exam time. Yeah. I mean, there's challenges to everybody. But that because I'm not living that. That experience. To me, that just seems huge. If you're competing for the same time. Yeah. Yeah, literally the same time to try and work. Yes, yeah. There'll be so many conflicts in schedules. And it's like, yeah, someone would have to have to sort of let things go, I guess at different times. It would be very challenging. Yeah, exactly. I have tripped up to some space. But human beings names they shall always leave to them. You're listening to the art of being a mom, with my mom, I was singing away from my dreams with your songwriting process? Like, do you just pick up ideas here, there and everywhere? And then come together with your sister and just bang it out? Or do you often like come to each other with, like, with a half done song, like, how do you sort of work in that way, it's a bit of everything, we often, because we're now living in different places, the, we don't often sit in a room together, and just create something from scratch, it'll be one of us coming up with an idea, you know, maybe a nearly finished one, or maybe just the beginnings of something, and then we just send it to the other person, the other person has their time with it, I send it back. And then when it's goes back and forth a few times, and then when it's, you know, pretty much in its fully formed song, or, you know, or book or whatever the thing is, then we'll get together and we'll just knock out the last little bit and just rehearse it up. So suppose in a state that we can perform it or you know, get the Voice Memo recording out and just do a acoustic recording on our phone. Imagine if we lost our phones. And imagine if we lost all the voice memos thinkable. It is unthinkable. And it's also think of all because it's like, how I don't it's like I barely know how to backup my computer, or what's on my phone onto my computer. So just Just don't be lost. Oh, what a disaster that would be. Oh, man, I was talking to a I had on my podcast the other day. It's not out yet. It will be seen. I recorded an episode. That's what I was meant to say, with as a songwriter. And we were joking about how you could be anywhere doing anything, and you'll get an idea. And until you've written that down or recorded that idea, you just cannot relax, like you're just in this state of, I'm going to forget it. I quickly have to do something with this. And you'd like she was joking. She's got all these little voice recordings if you're going in and new stuff. And then you listen to it later. And you've got to try and make sense of what your idea. Oh, I know. And to anyone else. Oh my gosh, it would be so embarrassing for someone else to just start listening to them all, online. All of mine start with this a standard tuning Capo one, five. This is what tuning Capo on blah. And it's just so it's just so boring to listen to. Do you ever wake up in the morning and have something in your head? No, no, that's never happened to me. A lot of people but no, not to me. I actually I love talking to musicians because I love it. I love it. Everybody has these, you know, all the different ways that they write or the different ways they get used. I just find it so fascinating. It's just fun. All right, well, I'll stop indulging myself. Yeah. That's great. I love I love hearing all of this, all of this stuff that you do yourself, too. It's so very interesting. It's so much fun. Love it, it is fun. And you know, on that, it's like when it stops being fun, then maybe that's, you know, that's usually the time that you got to change something, isn't it? Or maybe time to stop doing something and then start something else. Yeah, because, yeah, you definitely want there always to be an aspect of fun for that, and that's the thing, like when I said to my son, you know, you've got to you've got to do this every day. You don't want to literally wake up every morning and just go Oh god this again, you know, you want to be energized by what you do. And and if you're passionate about something, you know, if it's your your music or whatever you're doing that you're you're sharing that with people you know, I sort of feel like you've got this thing in you that you've managed to make into something and then sharing it with people is just the icing on the cake you know like she can wait to me she can't lie to me. I know some families back on to you being a mom. I like to talk to moms about the concept of their identity. So You know, you've always been a musician, singer songwriter doing your thing. When you became a mum? Did you? Did you really want to hold on to that part of your life? Did you feel like that was important? You weren't going to just go? Now my mom not going to do anything else? I'm just going to be mom. I mean, totally, I think, I think whether we care to admit it or not, we're all changed immensely when you have accused because your whole world changes. And that maybe I shouldn't assume that everyone's the same. But But yeah, for me, absolutely. I mean, your whole identity sort of changes. I mean, you know, in the first instance, all of a sudden, you go from being this independent person, who really, you know, if you've got a partner, and you know, you are thinking about him, to a degree and kind of do I mean, but you're still kind of two individuals. You know, doing life together, but there's still so much of that, that is separate and individual and independent from each other. But then when kids come on the scene, like, yeah, their needs, then it have to come first. And so, and that can be really hard to swallow. In terms of, you know, I really, there are still things that we all want to do. So fulfill us and to fulfill our own needs. And just sometimes, yeah, and often, you just can't do that. So yeah, definitely. And also just, you know, all the sort of the biggest sort of society, the society, sorry, societal things, you know, of becoming a mom and, and some things to do with gender as well, all of this stuff changes, you know, sometimes, and you can often work out how you feel about it, or actually work out what's going on at the time, but it doesn't feel right. And it can take some time to sort of explore those things and work out where you are, and how it's affecting you and what it is what it actually is to be able to verbalize what the thing is. I'm not sure if any of that made sense. Gosh, it is. Yes. And that's where I was leading you to because I look, I've spoken to a few members on this show. I've got to be careful how I ask questions, because I assume that everybody feels sometimes feels the same way that I did. And I've spoken to some mums who have just gone. No, I just went, I'm going to be mum, that's great. And I just went, that wasn't me. Yeah. You know, and so I've got to be careful how I don't want to ask leading questions. But I did lead you into that, because I had a feeling you'd say that. Yeah, well, I mean, I, yeah, gosh, the idea of? No, I definitely, I'd say definitely the person, a type of person who likes to have a good balance of both. I'm just happy, I'm just a happier person, if I'm also doing unstuff. Otherwise, I just get too cranky. Allison, too cranky. And I don't I don't like listening to myself. I can totally relate to that. I think I'm just a happy presence for everyone. If and it's funny, like, you know, both my partner and I, we acknowledge that and and say those things out loud. And it really has to be like, Okay, we have to we have to let each other do these things that we want to need to do to various degrees so that when we're when we're coming back and interacting with the rest of the family, you know, we're out of the we're close to the best versions of ourselves. Absolutely otherwise said that. Otherwise, there's too much resentment. Hey, that can just simmer up very quickly. Yeah, that's the word that I can definitely relate to is that resentment is just Yeah, and I'm not saying that in a negative like, God, I feel like I've got to justify everything I say now. But you know, I love my children. I love being a mom. But I also love doing things that I love to do that don't involve my children, you know? Oh, definitely. And that's, there shouldn't be any shame in saying. No, exactly. And here's the thing, right? We feel we feel guilty saying anything like that. Of course we love our kids. Yeah, of course. We love them. I love mine. Immensely. When I'm not with them. I miss them. And then when I'm too often, they can drive me absolutely nuts. Yep. I mean, and then yeah, and then I feel guilty about that. And then it's just crazy. And then and then you can't fully enjoy the time when you're away from them. Because you have all these feelings too. And then, you know, and then yeah, you're missing them a little bit. You're like, What is wrong with me? is wrong. It is just this perpetual thing isn't it's like we cannot escape it. Whether we're with them or without them. There's some element of guilt that We feel it's just, ah, it's horrible. I know it's huge. And yeah, you start to then see your own parents in a different light to realize that, oh, they probably felt all of these things, too. Yeah. Maybe I should have been more kind to them. You get new appreciation? Yeah, maybe I should be less judgmental of my parents. It is it is an interesting science lesson. But it's an interesting experience to be an old to be older and have your own children and look back on your parents with so much compassion. You think my God, you know, that what? You know, I don't know. I think we're so hard on ourselves. And everyone's just doing the best that they can with what they've got at the time. And yeah, you know, give me a break. Absolutely. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, cuz Yeah, mom guilt is something that I do like to chat to all my moms about. And I have had two people in this last week was the 78th episode that went out to mums. Wow, that have said they don't know what it is. They had to google it. And I was like, Yes, this should be all of us. We should not even have this word, you know? Yeah. And I feel like, you know, a lot of the people I talk to sort of share the view that, that it's this, the it's the external judgment, and the external societal norms or expectations placed upon us and making us feel this way, you know, if we just mothered the way we wanted to, and didn't feel this pressure, we wouldn't feel guilty because we'd be doing what we wanted with you. No, no. No, external helps. It helps to move your arms does help. You know, you know me. Ah, yeah. And social media. I think it's just been, it's got a lot a lot to answer for when it comes to this judgment of each other and things like that. It's yeah, totally. I mean, yeah. I mean, there's so many great things and so many bad things, that social media, it's to have it, it's a hard, hard balance to get a feel. With social media. Yeah. Because most of the mums I speak to are on there for you know, their art sharing their work, or, you know, they're for business. So yeah, you sort of feel like you've got to be on there. But then it's interesting to the last few people I've spoken to have been really had some, you know, the great advice, which should be obvious, but sometimes when other people say things, you notice it more than if you thought it yourself, but you know, only following people that make you feel good. You constantly see someone come up and they they trigger something in you don't keep looking at them. I know. It's such a simple thing. But yeah, so simple and so obvious. But why do we Why do we find ourselves doing it? I don't know. Yeah, it's a funny, funny world. Imagination tell me they're under my bed when worries come in and like wave rushing up to my, my superpower. It's essential that you have your support network in whatever way that you need that support. I'm sure that support comes in different forms for each individual and each family and each household. But, yeah, I mean, personally, I certainly feel very appreciative. And I was I was thinking in the car the other day and thinking how I would say this, and answer this question. If it came up with going, I don't think I feel lucky. I feel nervous using the word lucky because I feel like the insinuation is that I've had nothing to do with it. You know, if I say I feel lucky to have a partner that I do, I feel very appreciative. Because we certainly, I think we're doing okay, and again, ebbs and flows, I think we're going doing all right, you know, so far of trying to let each other you know, flourish kind of professionally and sort of try and really strive for those things that we want to do outside of having kids and parenting, which is so important. I think if I felt like I was just battling, you know, against someone or really trying to fight for time, all the time, and vice versa. That's not conducive to being creative at all. So yeah, that's really important. And I think everyone needs to be on the same team to make it work. So this year, for example, you know, we've had a baby at the beginning of the year. Everyone has needed to be on board for for it to be successful. You know, so and that's, you know, partner, SR manager, you know, all the people who are involved in the team, to be on board to make that work and to be happy to make that work. And, and for that to be successful. So, yeah, that's, that was the thought that I had driving for hours yesterday in the car. Yeah. And I think it to being able to ask for what you want and make your needs clear that this is not going to work for me, or this is what I need to make myself comfortable here like not being afraid to speak, speak up, I suppose. Definitely. And yes, to be really clear about those expectations that you have of each other, and, and to have those high standards of each other. I think, you know, to have those high standards, and to have those, you know, a level of expectation, and also to communicate the expectations that you have of each other as well, because, gosh, if we, if we assume too much, we're generally wrong, or incorrect in our assumptions that we make. So we may as well just talk about it and clear it all out from the get go. So everyone's on the same page. Yeah, that's a really good point. Because I feel like, as much as you know, you, you're obviously, you know, we're attracted to our partners for a particular reason. That's great. We love them. But those people are still different to us. And I feel like, I know what I do is, you know, for example, in a situation, I'd do something this way, and I can't assume that my partner would do that. I've got to go, actually, what would you do? I've got to ask him stuff. Because I've learned over the years, we're very different in certain areas. And there's and when you assume you make an asset of you and me, so yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Third, ask Allison. Yeah. Yeah, I can play. Yeah, exactly. I agree. I think it's, it's just yeah, it's just so beneficial to just be really clear about what you want. You might not get what you want. Where you stand and ask for something. They won't be surprised because they know that's where you're hitting with things. And there's nothing up for interpretation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. No mixed messages. Yeah, I had Adam Paige who's a South Australian. He's from Adelaide. He's a musician. And he said, when they had kids, he had to set like, literally have the conversation. This is what I need. From my music. This is what I need from this man. I should say also, that was Father's Day episode. Yes. Yes. Sorry. randomly say there's been a man on my show. That's a bit. Oh, no, I mean, it sounds great. I will get through all 70 episodes. Wow. Very impressive. You said you're up to the 70th episode. My goodness. It's a huge achievement look, honestly, I'm gonna say it again. It's just good fun. I just love doing it. I love talking to moms I love you know, chatting about stuff and sharing stuff and and I love the beat afterwards where you edit and stuff. I love doing that. So it's you know, it's a win win. That's great. Okay, doing at least peppers, strawberries, beets, rhubarb, and berries. Green, green, green. broccoli, beans, celery and apples. Spinach. Peas and lettuce. What do you got coming up the rest of the year? You said you you're still you still touring? Are you? Are you ever coming to mount Gambia? Just Well, I'm, I've got you. Gosh, I don't know, we probably will at some stage. But I can't for the life of me. Recall all of the places that we're going because there's too many. Which is actually awesome. I actually love that. That's always been a dream, you know, to just be able to to so much. But look what's coming up. I mean, we're about to we are we've, we've got so we've always got so many things on the go, which is great. We've got more books coming out. We've been very fortunate to be able to start writing and publishing some books, which is sort of based and expanded on from our songs. Obviously more touring. We've got some new music coming out towards the end of the year in preparation for Christmas time. And, yeah, I'm trying to think Is there is there anything else there's just there's just always stuff. There's always projects, and that's what I love. And, and that's yeah, that's the thing that we're hooked on. We just you just got to keep making projects for yourself, don't you? Because if you don't do it, if you don't initiate them yourselves, no one else is gonna initiate them for you. So funny I was in. I was in the shower yesterday. I get so many I don't know about you. But when I'm in the shower, it's like a portal opens up and I think of everything ever in the world. It's this Yasha thing. I'm in the shower and I'm thinking oh my god He's, I don't want to do this. And once he did, and then I got out the shower and went, Oh, but first I have to go make some school lunches and back to reality. Yeah, I'm gonna do all those jobs that actually make the day sort of just run successfully and smoothly. Oh, it was it was it was like one of those moments where it was just like a slap on the face like, yeah, you'd have to actually look after your children. You shouldn't do right. All those things download just so you don't forget them. I do. I'm an intense note writer, like I have to write down so often. I'll just like record voice messages in my phone for later. Oh, great. Yeah. There's probably quite a lot I've never really listened to. But I think if you're writing all those things down, then you're one step closer to actually achieving them than someone who doesn't. It sort of just forget tangible doesn't it's like yeah, actually, it's on a list. So it means it's, you're gonna keep thinking about it and keep, you know, well, it's all part of just making yourself accountable in a way. Yeah, it's the first step really? Yeah. Yep. Not the boss and many things. I'm just little and still learning. But I am the boss one thing. I'm not the boss of anyone else. I gotta let them be themselves. But I am the boss of one. Look, thank you so much for coming on, Beth. It's just so lovely to meet you and to chat with you. Everything keep doing what you're doing, because I think what you guys bring to the space is really important. And it does open up conversations, which is obviously that's your aim, and you're doing it beautifully. So thank you and say hi to your sister for me tell her I love her on it. I will it never gets old. Her hearing that people actually find what she does funny. If she could just mention a couple more times, you know, playing at the Opera House, that'd be good. I'm not sure if everyone's got the memo yet. I know it's too funny, isn't it? And hopefully, hopefully we do get to neck Gambia at some time or somewhere you know, you know somewhere close will if you do you know I'll be stalking you at the stage door. Oh yeah, I love that. Absolutely love that and funny. Thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review, following or subscribing to the podcast, or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast. Please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum Helen Thompson is a childcare educator and baby massage instructor. And she knows being a parent for the first time is challenging and changes your life in every way imaginable. Join Helen each week in the first time mums chat podcast, where she'll help ease your transition into parenthood. Helen aims to offer supported holistic approaches and insights for moms of babies aged mainly from four weeks to 10 months of age. Helens goal is to assist you to become the most confident parents you can and smooth out the bumps along the way. Check out first time mums chat at my baby massage dotnet forward slash podcast

Janelle Thomas Dubai based singer + songwriter S2 Ep64 Listen and subscribe on Spotify and Apple podcasts (itunes) This week I welcome Janelle Thomas, a singer, songwriter and performer based in Dubai, UAE. and a mum of 2 boys. Janelle begin performing at the age of 5, at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons, and played in the high school Marching Band playing clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20's deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Music at Concordia College in Montreal. Her day job wasn’t satisfying her, and fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for 4 months. Without really knowing where Oman was, she said yes! That was 16 years ago and she has performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract, when he joined the band as the guitarist and they have been together ever since. Janelle and Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015, they continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting two wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud, high-voltage 5-7 piece pop cover bands (as bandleader and musical director, respectively). Under the guise of "Lady J Duo" they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics, and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary, good-vibes-only listening experience that is elegant, yet funky. In the Autumn of 2012 they released Noise Rises (Strange Cat Records), an album of retro-inspired funky soul, featuring ten original songs they wrote together. In the spring of 2020, during the Dubai Covid-19 lockdown, Janelle and Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity, showcasing their favourite tunes, taking on-the-spot requests, and cameos by their firstborn Theo (a natural show-stealer). They continued these for 18 months. You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast today, and her music is used with permission. Connect with Janelle website / facebook / instagram Podcast - instagram / website You'll hear Janelle's amazing voice through the podcast, and her music is used with permission. When chatting to my guests I greatly appreciate their openness and honestly in sharing their stories. If at any stage their information is found to be incorrect, the podcast bears no responsibility for guests' inaccuracies. Podcast transcript at the bottom of the page Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of The Art of Being A Mum Podcast. I'm beyond honoured that you're here and would be grateful if you could take 2 minutes to leave me a 5-star review in iTunes or wherever you are listening. It really helps! This way together we can inspire, connect and bring in to the light even more stories from creative mums. Want to connect? Take a screenshot of this episode and share it on Instagram tagging me in with @art_of_being_a_mum_podcast I can't wait to connect. And remember if you or somebody you know would like to be a guest on the podcast, get in touch ! I love meeting and chatting to mammas from all creative backgrounds, from all around the world! Thank you! Alison acknowledges this Land of the Berrin (Mount Gambier) Region as the Traditional Lands of the Bungandidj People and acknowledge these First Nations people as the custodians of the Region. Ch eck out more episodes ..... Welcome to the Art of Being a mum, the podcast. It's a platform for mothers who are artists and creatives to share the joys and issues they've encountered, while continuing to make art. Regular themes we explore include the day to day juggle, how mother's work is influenced by the children. Mum guilt, how moms give themselves time to create within the role of mothering and the value that mothers and others placed on their artistic selves. My name's Alison Newman. I'm a singer, songwriter, and a mom of two boys from regional South Australia. You can find links to my guests and topics we discuss in the show notes. Together with music played, how to get in touch, and a link to join our lively and supportive community on Instagram. The art of being a mum acknowledges the Bondic people as the traditional owners of the land, which his podcast is recorded. Thank you so much for tuning into the podcast this week. It really is a pleasure to have you. My guest today is Janelle Thomas, a singer songwriter and performer based in Dubai in the UAE, and a mom of two boys. Janelle began performing at the age of five at a ballet school in her hometown in Canada. She took piano lessons and played in the high school marching band on clarinet and trombone. Janelle spent her 20s deciding if music was going to be her career. She studied a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music at Concordia College in Montreal. her day job wasn't really satisfying. And fortunately, out of the blue, she was offered a lead vocalist gig in Oman for four months. without really even knowing where Oman was. She said yes, that was 16 years ago, and she's performed overseas ever since. She met her husband Felix while on a short break back in Canada after that first contract when he joined the band as the guitarist. Janelle And Felix have performed more than 2500 shows together throughout Asia and the Middle East since they teamed up in 2006. Residents of Dubai since 2015. They continue to perform hundreds of shows together each year, working as full time performers, while somehow remaining pretty happily married and parenting to wildly energetic small boys. Although they now mostly gig as a compact jazzy duo, they spent the first decade of their relationship fronting their loud High Voltage five to seven piece, pot cover band as bandleader and musical director respectively, under the guise of the Lady J. God, Lady J. bein Janelle, they combine jazz standards, blues and soul classics and reimagined pop songs of any style to create a contemporary good vibes only listening experience that is elegant yet funky. In the autumn of 2012. They released noise rises through strange cat records are an album of retro inspired funky soul, featuring 10 original songs that they wrote together in the spring of 2020. During the Dubai COVID-19 lockdown, Janelle And Felix began live streaming as a way to connect with fans and keep their sanity showcasing their favorite chains, taking on the spot requests and featuring cameos by their firstborn Theo and natural show stealer. They continue these for 18 months. You're here Janelle is amazing vocals throughout this podcast today, and their music is used with permission. I hope you enjoy today's episode Gavin lane, got a fistful. Gonna run that bill will be the end of a long route backwards dad. No place my hands. Man and we're all gonna say welcome Janelle. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for having me. Allison. I'm excited. Yeah, so I can I can hear your lovely accent. You're from Canada. Is that right? I am. I'm from Canada, but I live in Dubai. Alright, so what how like, how long have you lived there for what sort of brought you there? So while the music Yeah. So my husband and I have been together 16 years. He's also Canadian. And we started traveling in a band. So So we were playing hotel residencies in the Middle East and throughout Asia. We did that for about eight, nine years. And then it brought us to Dubai. So we've been here since January 2015. And we're residents here now. And we've had two little boys here. So this is this is home for the time being. Yeah. So these are really hot there. Let the moment super hot. Yeah. I just got in from the pool. So I'm okay at the moment. But yeah, summers are very long they and very hot, especially with small kids. You really feel it so much more, because you're basically just inside for five months? Yeah, but it can get up to 50 degrees Celsius. Sand humid. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, the outdoors is kind of non existent, aside from if you're doing something in the water. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. With us being from Canada, we do have a bit of that experience. Because you'll have really cool times in the winter, where you don't go outside, you're not gonna go take a stroll or take your baby out or anything. But they don't tend to be constant, you know, you'll have cold days, and then it kind of warms up enough. And you pack on your layers and you go outside, whereas when it's hot, it's just hot. Yeah. Because you can't do anything you Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we used to find this. Okay. And since we had kids, we just find them brutal. So we're just counting down till October. Oh, my gosh. So what's like an average sort of when it when it's not so hot? What's the weather like, then? So lovely. You know, there's kind of six months of a year where it's gorgeous. And you kind of can't think about living anywhere else. So I would say sort of the coolest it gets probably in January, maybe days that are around 20 to 25. But Sunny, and gorgeous. It's perfect. Yeah, I mean, those are the times where I find it too cold to go swimming. I say that as a Canadian where I grew up swimming in icy lakes. But yeah, I get I get in the water now. And it's the season you sort of, you're sort of forced to do things that you wouldn't necessarily do if you had your own choice. If you lead with me. Love you. So tell me about how you got into music because it's something you've always done. Yes. And no, you know, probably like a lot of musicians always been a music lover. There was always lots of music in our house, my parents, neither of whom are musicians, but we had, you know, huge record collection. And there was always lots of singing and dancing that was encouraged. So, actually, I started performing. From age five, I lived in a really small town, and we had we had little ballet school. And that, for me was everything like those ballet recitals at the end of the year, you know, with costumes and makeup and lights. So I would say that that's where it all started was was there. So for the first few years, I danced, I took piano lessons, as you do. And then when it was time to go to high school, actually, I chose to go to high school in the big city, which was Montreal. My dad used to commute he drove back and forth. So actually I commuted with him like super early mornings and stuff like that, to go to high school. But I really wanted that school because it was the only one in the city that had a marching band. I was in the marching band and nerd for years playing the clarinet. And I played the trombone for a year. And then after that, you know sort of spent my 20s I think sort of struggling with am I going to be an artist? Can I be an artist? Or should I get a real job? You know, I did do a Bachelor of Fine Arts in music. Yeah, because when it was time for university, I thought I really like to do something I enjoy. I might spend three years enjoying myself and then need to become an accountant or something serious, but give it a go, you know? Yeah, and then just sort of bounce back and forth, did some contracts, then some admin work and then would be, you know, kind of happy with the lifestyle of neither. But it just kept pulling me back in I really was miserable when I was being an administrator even though I had some great jobs and lovely people. Have you know, and there was just a moment where I realized, like, I cry before I go to work every day at this very nice job. It's just such a nice job for somebody else. It's not for me, I can't do this. I'm only 26, whatever, to have given up. And so actually chance meeting with a musician I knew. And he said, We've just lost our singer. And we have a gig in Oman. And do you want to join our band and travel for four months? And I said, okay, and then said, Where's omen? While it's kind of next to Dubai, it was okay. But I never heard of it. So that was 16 years ago. Yeah, like when, and it was really different experience starting to travel then I mean, we had an app and there was no, YouTube, there was no Facebook, there was none of that kind of even the amount of information that you'd have was limited. It was people's blogs, and, you know, blurry photos and that kind of thing. So it was a relatively scary and endeavor to embark on. I think the thing that saved me is the four guys in the band that I went with, had all been there the year before. So they did have lots of first hand experience. But of course, coming from Canada and traveling to the Middle East for my first real big overseas adventure, let some preconceptions about how it's going to be and I thought, well, I'll just do four months, and then I'll go home. And then 16 years later. Still here. So your husband's musical as well. You guys played together? Where did you make the line? So I met him after that first contract. So actually, I did one conch. I did one more than he's done. So I joined here Monday. Oh, yes, we're totally keeping score, who's played more show? So I joined the band in January and somehow got asked to be the bandleader. I really feel it was by default, because everyone else in the band was French Canadian. And I was the only one who spoke English. And with my administrative background, I spoke good business English. So, you know, I would have the current bandleader coming to me and saying, Can you help me formulate this email? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't start it with Pedro. You know, it has to be a little more formal than that. So he kind of went, well, could you just do it? I was like, Okay, I guess so. So I certainly took on all the admin tasks, which also involves liaising with any of the agents or hotels that we were, you know, that we were dealing with, because these are five star properties, you know, the Grand Hyatt and Hilton and everything, like you needed to kind of be a little bit more on it than that it was the time. So we did the one gig. And then we went back to Montreal for this summer and made a couple of changes to the lineup, the guitars that we had was leaving. And so we went through about oh, my gosh, seven guitarists trying to find a good fit. And finally got Felix who was recommended by a friend of a friend. He was only 22. At the time, he lived in an even smaller town than the one I was from, like, 500 people. And, you know, 20,000 Cows was kind of where he was coming from. He'd never been on a plane. And so for him, it was an equally big adventure. And he, but he was kind of in a place in his life where he wasn't really happy and had just finished his musical education, you know, informally in college, and that, and he sort of same as me with, well, I'll do it for four months. And yeah, and then we got together pretty much right away. So that definitely helped us both feel like this was something that we wanted to stick with. And so yeah, so we've been together a long time. Oh, that's an awesome story. I love that. And isn't it just so typical in the music world? It's like, it's a friend of a friend or someone new this person or it's just the way it goes? Isn't it? Just this connection of people? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny, we're very lucky. But that and it's also funny, too, that there's, I'm, you know, the more that I have, the longer that I am a musician, the more I'm amazed by stories of bands who have that longevity, you know, like bands like YouTube, where they have the same members forever. Because I know even in a couple, it can be really hard to have exactly the same vision for the music and the same vision for the timing of how you want things to go. You know, when we had mostly we play as a duo now, but But we spent most of our time together playing with larger groups. And there were lots of fantastic musicians we played with, who would say I'm tired of traveling, I want to go home and be with my other half, or we had someone leave to go to med school. And it was kind of doable, but you're an amazing keyboard player, he was okay. But I want to be a doctor. So, so to realize that not only does the music have to work, but where you are in your life at that time. It has to work like that for people could do that for 30 years. It is it's incredible, isn't it? When you break it down like that you think of all the things that could have changed or gone wrong, or like it's, it's amazing, isn't it? Yeah. And it's still we actually liking each other and getting on like, right. I'm not saying that about you and your husband? I mean, I'm talking about you too. No, no, no, you can say it about us too. Yeah. Gosh. Adding up your misery causes in the shop, you've been dumped by text, then being slipped. You're wondering what's next, baby. Though life's looking great. You can choose not to decide. I have listened to some of your tracks online, you have got a powerhouse voice. I love your voice. It's I love a bit of built voice. It's so good. passion and energy. Yeah, so did you have like formal lessons for your voice? Or did you just sort of instinctively feel it out and work it out yourself? I've had very few, very few. So I went to university in jazz boys, but have had zero lessons. Before I started I had they went to Concordia, University of Montreal and one of the things I love about their program is they want it to be more inclusive. So unlike some of the other universities that really kind of only take you if you've been through the conservatory stream, or what have you, they just sort of said, if you want to play come audition, first, show us what you can do. And then we'll teach you all the back end, after you know, so. So I was kind of on the edge because I'd had quite a I had a fantastic teacher in high school, you know, but but wasn't quite there. So still needed to do more training, you know that you're training and theory and harmony and all of that to come. So they call that sort of like a zero level to get up to level one to be with everyone else. But but in terms of the singing, I did have contract wasn't really, it really wasn't much. There's only about two semesters of vocal lessons with Jerry Brown, who was their vocal jazz instructor. One of the things I'm really grateful to her for it is she she just gave me a lot of opportunity to get onstage, which I think I really I really needed at that time. As you can see, that's the part that I've hung on to like, gosh, don't ask me any harmony theory now that's long forgotten, but it's still performing. And, and then after that I did. I did a musical review from point and there was a really great vocal coach there as well. So she I mean, the coaching was quite specific to the songs for the show. But she was she came from a musical theater background. So that kind of helps with all that. Belting and being on stage and having to really, again, like project and in a very much like onstage performance way as opposed to recording or anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it is so different, isn't it? It's yeah, two completely different things. Yeah. Yes. So in terms of the music that you do, I know, I've seen that you write your husband and yourself right together. And you do have this, but I think the way I can't remember how you worded it now on your website, but it was really clever. It's like you could take any style of song and turn it into your own basically, is that how you look at when you're, you're doing your comments. That wasn't how we started. But that's very much Where to now that we've seen too, just in general, I think I think YouTube has been great for for that for introducing the general audience to kind of the magic of reinterpreting you know, reinterpreting styles, so, especially groups like postmodern jukebox, and we're big fans of scary pockets who do funk covers of whatever, you know. So we've found in recent times, that's gotten a lot of traction for us. And it's also cool because when we spent a decade basically just playing pop music, and lots of songs that we love, and it was, you know, full on big songs, Sweet Child of Mine and Highway to Hell sometimes and all these kinds of things. And now we don't have to lose that repertoire because we can translate it. So we do funk version of sweet child of mine, we do a jazz version of, you know, you shook me all night long. And, and, and sort of, you know, all kinds of other things. And so it's a lot of fun for us, I find in that way, it's a more creative process than it used to be where we were just sort of the cover band who had to, as best as we could reproduce what was on the record. You know, that's what we kind of did for a long time trying to bring life to the album version, but but it was pretty much you know, in the box, and it's not so much now. Yeah, that is good. Because like, I don't, obviously, I don't know what the audiences are like in Dubai, I can only speak from my, my tiny little town, but my sister and I had a lot of experience singing in bands, my sister more than me, but, and I did a lot of covers as a soloist. And sometimes your audience just wants to hear the songs that they know, done in the way that they know. And it can be really challenging to get them past that, and to push them a little bit. So it sort of can be hard to know, like, unless your audience is ready for it can be really daunting to try and put in something else and even like putting in originals is like, you know, is that you can sort of relate to that very much very much. And, you know, the audiences in Dubai are high maintenance, I find that way. They're great. And they love live music. And we, I mean, we have a career as purely full time performing musicians, you know, we don't have other jobs we don't teach, we're so lucky. This is what we've been able to do for 16 years. But at the same time, I think that demands are such from us, the as you said, like if it's Hotel California, just play the solo, don't do anything else they want to sing along, maybe they know this solo, you know, they need to hear it as they know it. So there are some songs where we just kind of were like, we're not even gonna attempt that, that you guys just you need it the way you need it. So that's fine. But actually, it's been surprising that they've been as open as they, as they are to hearing different versions of things, we find there's very few opportunities where they're really open to hearing things that they don't know like in that sort of why we don't one of the reasons why we don't do more original music here. The other reason is we have two small children. We got like no time or brain space to write anything. But also there really isn't the opportunity for that you just and you know it's hard when you're playing and you see everyone's eyes kind of glazing over. Yes, I know that feels like you feel like I've got these people they go and really good and then you put in you think I'll take a chance now putting this out and then it's like dammit, I want to stop halfway through despite all the fire alarm. Oh, it's funny, isn't it it was the story that drew me in. Hell you were so inspired by the man with a Viking didn't know it was just you using views and trying to confuse So you mentioned that the two small children How old are your children? So we have two boys who is four and a half and Hendrix is two. Oh, I love it is a great night. Oh that's good. We figured we have to get away at least we're both your parents are musicians. Yeah. Do something a little little left to center it to each night. Yeah, it's almost like it'd be a shame if you did it. Right. So did they like they enjoy sort of hearing you guys playing the guitar or singing at home? You know what, it's funny actually, we don't do nearly enough playing at home. I think that that's one of the for us. One of the hard things about maybe gigging as much as we do you know, and I hate to say there's anything hard about it because I know we're very blessed but like we're we're tired during the Ha, we're good. So I know other people will say, Oh, you must just grab a guitar and sing along all the time. And I'm just, I'm just trying to keep it quiet. And I talk too much during the day, because I gotta go work tonight. You know, when we do, they love it, obviously, they're totally exposed, you know, there's instruments around, they can play what they want, they can sing a lot. We, during COVID, one of the things we did to sort of stay in touch with people is we started live streaming, it was new for us. But we were locked down here in Dubai. And like, when we had our lockdown, it was locked in a locked down, like we did not go outside of the apartment for 35 days, at one point, everything is very delivery oriented in Dubai, even before COVID. So it was quite easy. So you can still get, you know, your medication or groceries or whatever, it all came to the door. But so we were struggling with being trapped in the house at the time, I was four months pregnant and you know, being trapped together with your husband and your two year old. Boy, it was like, Okay, we were feeling really lonely. You know, so we thought, let's try live streaming. And it just got a great reaction. And we realized, actually, that we'd spent so long making music and traveling for people all over the world, but not are our families and our, our people at home because what we do go home for our one month of holiday. Most years. We're like we don't, we're on holiday, I know, I need a break. And I'm what we used to play in a band, it was always really loud music six days a week. And vocally, I needed a massage, you know, so I could do the next 11 months, that kind of thing. So, so those people just, they don't know, they don't know what we do. So our family and friends were just tuning in in droves, you know, and people also to have their own, you know, lockdown of whatever degree. So we found, especially people who are alone, so, you know, kind of in the moms category, but a lot of these are women who live alone, who were really, really isolated. So being able to come on and see us and and we started bringing Bo on and then it was like, forget it. Like we felt like we played a 55 minute, like opening act. So they didn't come on for the last five. You just have people chiming in, in the chat going to have the open arms. And other people like No, no, it hasn't come yet. Okay, like whatever, like we're just the warm up. But this was lovely. Yeah, it was great to see that, that he had fans. And it was a way to, for us to also share what we have, like it's so we kind of got released, you know, into the wild, maybe sooner than in Canada or the UK. So we were back out and doing activities. You know, before people there were. And so then actually, we sort of started this whole new feature of also just filming the activities that we did. So if we went we took to the or to the aquarium, or we went to the pizza or just rode the metro or whatever. We just filmed them. And it was just kind of, you know, life in Dubai, and he would come on and he would narrate the whole thing, which people love. So he tell him, you know, if we went to the petting zoo, and all that, so yeah, he was super into that. So it's a bit sad that now that we've gotten busier, we don't have the same kind of time to do that. Because I think it was a really special features special time that we ended up doing. Probably about 100, like full hour or hour, it became an hour and a half because an hour wasn't enough, you know. And we played games, we did like a quiz show, and we did all kinds of stuff. I'm disappointed because that would have been amazing. Our Australian friends did have trouble turning it because it was like 12 It was midnight or one in the morning for you know, maybe my nurse friend coming off shift at the hospital. So you catch a bit but that was awkward on is that oh, yeah, I could certainly relate to that. Like, you know, you're doing it for yourself because you need something to keep that creativity sort of going, you know, but yeah, like you said the the upside of that is people on the other end are getting so much out of it. So yeah, my news for Don Yeah, it's really valuable. Yeah, it was good. And it's it was really nice to that over the course of the probably about 18 months that we ended up doing it You had to it was kind of starting at just about two, not even two and a half. And so that for me now has been such great memories to preserve to really see him growing. And you hear him singing, and he's singing more in tune as the time goes along, and then his baby, and I'm getting more and more pregnant, you know, and then his baby brothers, and then his baby brother is coming now and singing when we do you know, the two of them sing together and all that. So it's been, it's been really nice to be able to share that with with people for whom it's that's also really meaningful to them. Yeah, it's a very small, but very important and significant audience. Yeah. Well, that's lovely. That is, it's a lovely little snapshot to have, isn't it of that period of time in your life yeah. How did you go singing when you were pregnant? Did you find you your breath was affected, like the diaphragm and all that from having this baby? Good times. For out of breath. And super out of breath. Like, both times, actually, I think I was more out of breath in my first trimester than I was at the end, you know. So that was, so when I was pregnant with Theo, we were actually still on our hotel are the very last of our hotel residency gigs. So it was here in Dubai. But it was still three or four nights a week, nightclub Smokies still jumping up and down that kind of thing. Still being expected to do shots with people like I just had to constantly be making excuses for why more I was telling people that I was pregnant, you know. So that would be jumping up and down still having to do, you know, Highway to Hell. And whenever that was tough, that was tough in that sense. And I think once you start showing and you're pregnant, it's, then people understand, oh, yeah, okay, well, you're going to take it easy, you're not going to jump around so much. So then just my feet were killing. But with deal I performed up until so this was 2017. So I performed up until two days before he was born. Because he came three weeks early. Yeah, I was it was supposed to be my last go. And, and even had my friend, our great friend who's the drummer at the time, and he said, you know, you better take it easy, because you don't want your water to break onstage. I think it's totally said as a joke. And it didn't, but it did 20 hours later, like it nearly did. And I thought oh my gosh, it just would have ruined that status. All the cables, like I could just imagine everything's covered in like goop, you know? Yeah, so I did my last show. And then he was born less than 48 hours later. Was it supposed to be like that, but anyhow, he had other plans. So that was, it was great. Like, actually, I love being pregnant and still singing, I felt really good. I felt really healthy. My feet were sore all the time. But But aside from that, the guys I worked with, were super supportive, you know, and, and people loved it, too. You know, we like we are played at Hard Rock Cafe at that time, which is a very, very much a family venue out here. And so you just have women coming up all the time and and remembering their pregnancies. And it just felt really wholesome, kind of like family, family values sort of thing. And that was definitely my plan being pregnant with Hendrix too, but you know, COVID can kind of hit when I was about four months pregnant. So So one of the things they did here in Dubai is in addition to the lockdown then even when we were, you know, kind of free to go out again, there were still really, really tight restrictions on entertainment for quite a long time. So. So even though I was ready, I was like, you know, we've been out of work, went back at it, even though I'm seven months pregnant now or whatever. I couldn't and so, so then with Hendrix, I actually was back on stage six days after he was born. Oh, we had a gigs that were waiting for us. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll be there next Monday. Yeah, I'm coming. That is incredible. That is amazing. How did you do it though physically like we did you you must have Like, good birth and everything like good after, or was it like really? I did, like I really, you know, I had great pregnancies and the actual deliveries were a little bit tough at times I have babies who really enjoyed their accommodation. So they kind of had to be like convinced showing us on this Friday, you know, but then once they were out, they were perfectly healthy. I was healthy. I was moving around, you know. That being said, like I had, I had said, I'm gonna be back on stage, everybody was going, Are you sure I was like, that is the wrong thing to say to me. I've said Hampshire, you know, I'm just going to do this. Obviously, the week between birth and actually having to leave newborn baby for, you know, the six, seven hours that is required when you're when you're doing again, even if it's in town. That week was just so stressful. All I could think was I just need to pump enough. I need to be ready. I mean, one of the things that made it easier is we've had the same nanny since Theo was born. So at least she was really ready for that, you know, feels perfectly comfortable with her. So there wasn't any of that kind of stress of who's going to mind the baby, like I had someone I trusted implicitly, but still. And then on the day of just, I was getting ready for work, and I didn't have a single pair of shoes that fit. My feet were so swollen. And I thought, you know, and it's a jazz gig in a nice restaurant, and I thought I'm gonna have to go there in like, trainers that aren't even done up because I literally can. Like, I was totally miss piggy. You know, I was just, I couldn't even put my feet in anything. And so I found this like, ghastly pair of slip ons that were really stretchy. And all I could think is, please, everybody look at my huge massive cleavage. Don't Don't look down at my terrible. Just keep it all up here and then the top half. I'll be fine. Yeah. But, but I got there. And I really, we, you know, we played three sets. And I really spent the first two sets thinking that I was gonna faint. Like I was on stage thinking, this was not a great idea. I maybe shouldn't have done this. And I'd had an episiotomy. So I was still healing from stitches. So I couldn't sit. Also, you know, sitting was actually really uncomfortable. So everyone was going to want a stool. I'm like, no, no, no stool, that's worse. So I've just kind of, you know, trying not to, like cling on to the mic stand for the first few sets. But you know, Felix was great. And the staff were great. It was a place that we we love we play there a long time. So everybody just welcomed us back with open arms are so happy to see as you know, we've been six months since we've been there. Because of COVID. And the audience was amazing. Like the audience were so ready for live entertainment to after COVID. So actually the third set, good. The third set was better and it was kind of okay, well, this is the power of music that what it can actually do for all of us. But oh, yeah, I was in like the fall on adult diaper for that show. Ah, I'll take my hat off to you. Honestly, that's that is amazing. Good on you. Was there ever any question in your mind that you weren't going to do it though? Did you ever think? No, I just No, I cannot do it was like that. I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah, I'm doing it. It's happening. And you know, I will say that, like six months of unemployment is a really good motivator for that, too. You're just like, yeah, no, no, we need to start having the ball of finances you know, ball financial ball rolling, like ASAP so, yeah, I'm gonna get on stage. Now when I look at it. I'm like, that was kind of a terrible idea. You know, and I can't believe that all of you guys let me do you know, and my husband is just like, oh, yeah, like I'm absolutely not going to tell you that you're a crazy person. You know, you were doing it. So you did it. Good. Take up drinking is Elton cloud syncing, trial fun and give thinking, wow. Get out and founded by Anna less than wrenching. You go up to your head. Do them. How long did were you away from the station before you came back? Four weeks, maybe four weeks? Five weeks? Yeah. It took it took longer. I will say at that time. But I felt good. You know, I felt like I was ready to be back. But of course the first time. I just couldn't imagine the legit sticks of having to leave him like it wasn't even necessarily that I was nervous to leave him with somebody else. Because of course, like, free COVID, right, he was kind of everyone had helped him and everybody, you know, we used to just like people cough, germs all of our babies all the time. So, you know, that was okay, I was comfortable with that. But I could barely figure out like how to get out of the house, in under four hours, you know, when we would have a doctor's appointment? Like I would literally be preparing for that. Hours and hours ahead of time and still be late all the time. You know, I think one of the the differences too is I was breastfeeding exclusively. The he didn't do any auto feeding for the first two months. So that too, I was just kind of like, how does that work? How are they gone? So actually, the first gig that I did with Theo was one that had come in, and it was in our neighborhood. So it was like 10 minutes walk from the house, it just happened. And I thought this one I can do, you know, I can live and it was one that had a kind of a strange pacing for the evening. So in the middle of the evening, there was like a one and a half hour break. And I thought I can do that. I'll just run home, like in my show clothes, and then feed my baby and then run back to the gig and then come back after. Yeah, so it just kind of worked out that that was one and then you know, quite quickly realizing I have to make a compromise somewhere like I can't just be exclusively breastfeeding. If I want to also be on stage I have to be able to be away for four gigs. So but that's a hard, a hard, you know, thing to work out in your head the first time whereas then by the second baby, I was more comfortable with the idea of bottle feeding and then it was easier to step away. Yeah. Oh, good on you. That is awesome. Like, I'm so impressed by that. I'm gonna put a round of applause sound effect through that. But I will tell you on that gig, which was a bit of a venue that anyway, I was very dark for a reason, let's just say and I was literally in the bathroom, like, you know, pumping milk at one point and watching a cockroach crawling across the wall. And I thought, Here I am making food for my baby like I'm trying like I have the hand sanitizer I'm trying to keep everything is getting there's just a cockroach crawling across in front of my eyes. I thought oh my god, what am I doing? But having said that, yeah, exactly. You know that they they survive like, I don't know, I think we get really scared that they're not going to survive without us. And then when they do you go. Oh, actually, this is great. What else can I do now? Let's meet Well, I did anyway. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're listening to the art of being a mom with my mum, Alison Newman. Sean. Stone, opposing forces. And predictable unknown. Is you the sound? Man, I'll see you on Monday. Was it important to you that you got back to your pre I want to say you pray baby life, because it's never the same, but holding the things that are important to you. You're performing you're singing? Was that like, the top of the list? This is me. I'm going to get back to this as soon as I can. Yeah, very much. I'm, you know, I'm a relatively old mum, as they you know, as they go. So, I was 39 when I had the Oh 42 When When I had Hendrix, and one of the reasons that I hadn't started a family any earlier was that I was the bandleader like I, and the dynamic I think in the band because Felix, the musical director, and I was kind of all the admin bandleader side of things, we were very much Mom and Pop, you know, in kind of the structure of whoever we worked with. So we'd work with basically like five to seven piece bands. And for the most part, like, I felt like those people were my kids, you know, kind of dealing with the feelings and drama and scheduling and making sure everybody had clean clothes and you know, that kind of thing. Because also too, when you're traveling that as a whole other aspect of you know, there are a whole other host of issues that come up where you're kind of like living with people and they're living away from home and all of this so sometimes it was a lot to handle and I thought there's no way I could have a real baby that I need to take care of where this band is my baby, you know, and I also for myself, I If I didn't want to not be able to do everything that I was doing, and, and I knew having a baby would change my life, and I knew that there would be compromises that had to be made, and I was just not in any way ready for that. So, for that reason, too, it was really important to me to perform the whole time I was pregnant, you know, kind of up until the bitter end, it was like, I'm still, I'm still doing everything that I could do, you know, with the exception of bending to plug in cables, to a point where I just cannot get down there. I and so then after baby, it was like, Yeah, I'm back, I'm back. Nothing has changed, you know, of course, everything has changed. But that I really kind of had like a death grip, I think on that element of my identity. And that is, the thing that I think I struggle with most really, is I still get really frustrated that I'm not able to do all the things that I used to be able to do, there was a moment where I was thinking maybe that I would have to even give all this up just because of so unhappy with how that all had gone, it kind of coincided with just sort of what happened in the market here in Dubai, you know, for such a long time, Felix and I had been leading a band. And then some of the people we worked with, left the band because they wanted to move on. And also just in the market, the budgets just got a lot smaller. So all of a sudden, there weren't gigs for five or six people, it was no Oh, to Navy, we can stretch to three. And so I was left feeling. And I know it's an all makes sense, but you know, really feeling that I took my hands like off the crank to have a baby. And it all fell apart. Just like I knew it would, you know, and and it was. And so I felt like a lot of that was my fault. Like, we would have still had van and we would have still had gigs, we would have still been just as like, busy and happy had I not done this, you know. And so that took me a while to get over and to sort of you know, it's not all about me. Like there were also other factors at work just like the economy, that's not all my fault. Yeah, yeah, how you would feel like that, yeah, it's very high. And it's having to kind of work my head around to, to appreciate and, and adapted to what we do now. So. So that was a thing kind of as things shrunk, you know, we sort of went six, five, all the way down to it just being feeling SCI. And and then the gigs changed, you know, and COVID was a big part of that, too, that we've, you know, we were lucky enough for most of the last two and a half years to actually have that live entertainment has been allowed, there was about 10 months where it was, you know, kind of band completely. But because Felix and I were now a small unit, we were more affordable. And because we also moved away from playing the pop music, the B student big band. And instead, we were doing these, like, Jazzy, you know, covers but still have pop music. We found that there were a lot of and also to one of the rules that they only brought back fairly recently is that there was no dancing allowed anymore, because they didn't want people kind of like being close together mingling. So restaurants were allowed and restaurants could have music with the tables had to have social distancing, you know, and all of that. But then actually, we found ourselves really well positioned because we could just set up husband and wife like in a little corner and play these songs that would still have people sort of dancing in their seat, you know, by not getting up it was all at a quieter value. It was actually really popular, you know, and the other things that came with being in a restaurant like gigs that start at 730 I want to be in bed before midnight. Definitely. Certainly, because you know, I have to get up at six o'clock in the morning. No, and there's none of that, you know, slip until all hours so. So I've worked my way around to really appreciate it but it mentally it's there are times there has been a really hard slog you know, and it's probably been about three years of lots of talking to myself and re The assessing if I'm happy with where things are and where they're going, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not to say that there were, you know, not moments of serious self doubt. And, and us really questioning things, you know, even even at the very beginning of COVID, where they were closing the airports, right, you know, and, and gosh, our prime minister on TV, say Canadians come home, that was exactly what he said. So, of course, our parents are like, get on a plane and come and, and, you know, and we're just going well, do we, though, but we have we live here, you know what I mean, you have an apartment full of stuff. It's not just, it's not like we're on a holiday, you know. So that was a hard decision to sit tight and say, Okay, we're going to stay here. And staying in a place where, you know, there's no, kind of like social safety net for foreigners here. So there's no employment insurance, there's no child, like, kind of welfare thinks that you're on your own. So we had to just try to, you know, tighten our belts manage our savings to make them last as long as they, as they could, you know, borrow money when we had to, to get through it. And of course, the whole time, you're thinking like, is this it? Is this just the end? Because that was one of the things that was so hard about COVID to it was, maybe this is the end forever? Have in person performances, like the repairs were like, is this? Is it just all gone now? And if so, what are we hanging on for like, then we need to be pivoting and learning to be accountants, like, this is what has to happen. And so if they're, there have had so many long periods of just not knowing what the hell we're doing and what the hell's going on. Now, of course, in hindsight, like we see, okay, no, we were, we we made the right call to is to stick it out. And stay here, I think, actually, one of the big factors that, you know, factored into a stain was that I was pregnant. Because it was also I don't have a doctor in Canada, you know, my doctor is here, the quality of care is, is excellent here, and it was still really accessible, you know, whereas in Canada, they kind of like, locked everything down. And my sister was pregnant at the same time. So we really, so I have a nephew who's only three months older than Hendrix. So we really were kind of, you know, compare and contrast, like through the whole thing. And she was having tele health visits, and I'm like, no, no, I still go in for my, you know, twice a month ultrasound. Like, I'm still allowed to do that. So you know, I think that live streaming was really great to show us that we have a another way of, of reaching people. But I feel like it's not over, I feel sort of that, like our deciding is not over, you know, we really feel like we're here. We're here for the immediate future. But also, I personally know that I'm left with a lot of anxiety and kind of, like a form of, you know, PTSD, almost just the stress of the insecurity of the last two years is, is something that I really struggled to shake, to, to feel secure. Again, in as secure as you ever feel when you're a musician. I mean, I've spent the last 16 years of life on contracts and having like, zero, real financial security, you know, as many artists, you know, that's our life. Right. But this has added a whole like other layer to it, which is kind of permanently stressful. Yeah. Yeah. And that's thing. It's so it's so unknown, because it's like, I know what you mean, like, it's winter, next gig winds, you know, in normal times, but then it's like, Will there ever be gigs? Like, it totally changes the whole way? That you think about the whole thing, so yeah, I can I can empathize with you there because that's, yeah, and that's thing. It's COVID Still ticking along like things are still happening. And yeah, we just we have no idea where it's going and what's going to happen and yeah, it's full on in it's been a really, it's been a crazy time to be alive. You know what I mean? Like it's it is one of those hopefully once in a lifetime occurrences, you know, like a war like, something like that, that this is is you know, the thing we'll talk to our grandkids about, basically. Yeah, and, and, um, yeah, I'm still not sure how we're the lasting changes, you know, that this This will make like, one of the things that I was sort of surprised at is how quickly kind of the online side of things really like online performances really dissipated once in person performances were a thing again. Which is great, because I mean, hey, we're like, that's our job is to be in person performers were in the room. But, and in a way, it's fantastic. Because it thinks that it shows me that there's nothing that can replace being in the room with the people making the music, you know, it's just, you can't put that on a record, you can, you know, put that on on a screen, it just you have to be there. So good for us. Because that means people still want to see us in person, but also to is kind of stressful, because it's like, well, then, is there ever really a plan B for for us? Or is it always because certainly when we were live streaming, we made a little bit of money, but it was, you know, dribs and drabs, it was not like enough to sustain us so. So that's kind of where I am now. It's just to feel that over the long term, not sure how much longer we'll be able to kind of get away with doing what we're doing, you know, because if ever to the market changes again, and we're now not so well positioned for what people want, then that's tough. So I mean, this is like a story of all you know, performance artists also sample if you lead with me, me, me love you you know, that I find it Oh, so hard to let go. Change my mind when you say in your sweet baby one of the topics I really like to talk to guests on the show is about mom guilt. And I put I put it in air quotes because I recorded an episode with an artist this morning who had to Google what it meant because she literally did not experience it didn't know what it was. And I thought that was awesome. That's the first person I've met that hasn't known. So I'm really that was awesome. So that just goes to show the broad range of experiences that we have with this thing. What's your thoughts? Oh my gosh, I'm the polar opposite of the poster child for Mom You're getting both ends of the spectrum today. Yeah, yeah, no, mom. Definitely. I mean, I have all kinds of, you know, anguish about things. You know, I have like, bandleader guilt and all this kind of things, too. So it's just another one that I add to my my collection. The mom guilt. Yeah. Where does it hurt? Oh, my gosh. It's, you know, I was listening to to yesterday, I was listening to the podcast you done with Ms. Coleman. And she was talking about it really for her seems to revolve around time. And I think that's, that's absolutely yet you know, feeling that that I'm not giving my boys enough time or feeling that I'm not giving them quality time. That one is, you know, certainly is trouble. I see. So I kind of the logistics of it. Right? You know that our gigs do finish even getting home at midnight, but you know, you're not to bed for 130 or whatever. So when someone comes because they've wet the bed and then the other ones crying the knees. So you know, I mean, there's lots of nights where we're still, you know, maybe up three or four times. So then starting the day at seven, it's like okay, well we've had like five broken hours of sleep, you know, and my husband and I share duties and he's up, you know, with as well. But still we both just find really, really tired in the mornings a lot and That's hard. So then I think I see too that with Hendrix, I don't spend the same time there's a lot more TV. A lot more TV. Do it would be like 12 minutes, one little episode, you know that we're trying to get off and we're working on colors and stuff to with Hendrix, I'm like, Dude, how do you not know any of your colors? Like how do you not know these animals? Right, because no one has taught us that that was the kind of thing with do that I would sit and I would do. And now with two of them, I'm just kind of like, oh, the TV's just gonna have to teach you something today, because I don't go to the realities. The reality but I feel guilty about it, you know, I feel guilty that I'm not kind of there for my second one, in the same way that I was for the, you know, for the first child. And, and it's, it's hard. When we get busy with work, you know, we're lucky to have maybe six or seven gigs a week, regularly, you know. So sometimes we'll only have one night off. And that's hard, where I'm giving them their bath and putting them to bed once a week. And just the feeling that like there's another woman who I love and trust, but somebody else does this all the time, who gives you nighttime cuddles. So those periods are hard, but they're also kind of necessary, sort of the reality here, like, in general, there are summer season, which is about five months long. workwise is quite quiet, you know, there's less tourists, a lot of the families that are here, if they can, they, they'll take their holiday, so they might be gone back to Australia or Canada or UK wherever for two, perhaps two months. So then they're not here eating in restaurants and going out. So we do have a lot less gigs in summer than we do in the over the winter period. And that's hard to the the feeling that we have to take all the work that we can get, you know, when it's offered. I don't find that we have a lot of balance, like either summer, and we're kind of, you know, to in our fingernails a bit going, Okay, hope we can we make it by the end of the month, or it's winter. And we're just like, you know, out every night kind of thing, just just working all the time not feeling dizzy the kids? And if so, and then I think it translates into other ways, right? You know, maybe there's too many trips to McDonald's or too many little presents, or little, you know, ice cream or whatever, because it's like, my, I feel like I don't see you enough. So I just want to just want to treat you. And there are other options. You know, like here in Dubai, there's quite a nanny culture, they don't really do babysitters, and of course, because all of us, like kind of the entire population are away from our families, right? You know, like, everyone has come from all over the world to work here. So you don't have sisters and aunts and uncles and brothers who can watch the kids, you know, so you have a nanny, and they're with you, all the time. And for many people, it's not our situation, but many people have many live with them that and we often have people saying that, but if you had your nanny live with you, she would get up in the morning with the kids and you know, hey, we think about it, but also to the Trade Office, then then I do lose that part, I do lose that access to my, my kids. And you know, there's a part of me, which feels like, if certainly if we had kids in Canada, we'd be doing it all on our own, you know, we would be up and we would be tired. And we would be just like everybody else, you know, and so trying to still may have that kind of Canadian life, but at the same time, the reality is like, I get to bed at two o'clock in the morning when I'm tired when I wake up at 630 So there's no escaping. Yeah, but that's the thing that I like. I haven't heard you say once in this, even though there's always stuff I mean, obviously thinking about, you know, the how the market is gonna go but you're not saying that I don't want to do this anymore. Because of, you know, the sacrifices, the compromises that I might be making with my children. You know what I mean? Like it's, this is what is important to you at the end of the day, you know, this is this is you This is in in your heart and soul and yeah, I hope I'm getting Yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I quite recently have asked myself, you know, if this is if this is right for if this is right for me, if this is right for us, and it's sort of that feeling of a lack of balance, you know, I would like to feel more balanced and and I mean, also to that logistically, the reality of it is just financially, it makes more sense for the two of us to be going out and gigging. And for us to then hire a nanny than for me to stay home. But that's not the whole story, too. When I see things like, Oh, my two year old doesn't know his car, you know? And I'm like, well, maybe I need to be here, and be teaching him those things. And, and is that what's right for us now? And also to in the sense that, you know, we think someday we'll move back to Canada, probably, you know, in the next five years. And we know, we can't do this, when we're there. So there's also that to have, do we need to be putting in place, whatever kind of work, things need to happen, you know, does it obviously involve some kind of retraining or something? And is that what I should be spending my time doing now? So that we're kind of ready for the next step. But, you know, as he said, it's kind of the, it has always pulled me back in like, I can't imagine not putting on the makeup and doing the hair and going out and, and making music with Felix, you know, it's the the reason that we're that we're together. You know, he'll he'll occasionally have other gigs with other people. And as much as I love it, and I'm happy for him. And he needs more variety than I do. Like, I'm like, No, I'm happy to just work with you to know exactly what I'm doing to have someone who I rely on 100% I don't need any kind of instability. In my life. I'm good. I got it. Whereas he'll go, he's happy to jam and happy to take on new projects and learn new things like No, no, I don't have any of that desire. But when he does things, I'm happy for him. But also there's part of me that, like, it really doesn't like that, you know, that he's gone off and is having a life without? Yeah, I mean, we literally in 16 years, like we pretty much, you know, kind of spent every minute together for that time. So yeah, it's if for better, it's far better for us. You know, it really it really is. No longer gonna backtrack, just exam that you chose wrong. Now you go back and get over it Yeah, was gonna ask you what you've got coming out. But I know, I've I don't know how to ask that. Because you've got gigs all the time, haven't you? Like? Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, because I had a look at your page of all your shows. It's like, oh, my gosh, you like that. And then, so like, it's just, it just flows on and on and on. Like you said, you have this portion of the year where it's full on full on full on, and then it's the little break time. So yeah, you just sort of ride the waves. And, yeah, it's like, you know, we describe it as a marathon out here. Right? You know, because it doesn't ever really stop. And which is great. Is you know, as you said, like it does have high season and low season to it. So, for us coming up we're getting into this season probably won't start really full on until October. Which is okay, because Theo is starting school in September. So he's never been to nursery, he was kind of about to go to nursery and then it was COVID. So then he stayed home for that two years with us. Which is a whole other like, Mom, thing my sister laughs at me, she's really okay with sending her eldest to school and I just choked all the time. I'm like, buying, you know, glue sticks and googly eyes, like crying in the grocery store. filling his school list. I, you know, he needs a uniform and I'm kind of dreading going to the store. I just don't I can't like deal with seeing him in that little uniform for the first time. So yeah. So I think actually, it'll be okay that he, you know, we'll start that and we're not super busy yet. So we'll have time to kind of transition him into that and transition us because he has to get up even earlier for us to drive him to school. You know, Oh, it's so I'm nervous about it. Because I think like, already, I'm tired. And already, it's not amazing for me, you know? How is that going to be when now we have to be up even earlier five days a week. And then when I have more gigs, how's it all gonna work? So I'm, I am really nervous about this fall season, coming in and figuring that we will just have to figure it out, as you know, as it goes along. But for us, musically, we have just started our first gig in like, four years with a full band. So that's been exciting for us to actually have, you know, bass, drums and keys again, because most of the time, and although we say most of the time as a duo, Felix is the band. So he is a guitarist, but he does all the drum programming, we work the drum machine that he plays Live, and then he does bass loops and guitar loops on top of that, and then he's doing back vocals, and he's saying the vocals, I'm just singing. I'm playing a little bit tambourine here and there. And then doing all though, like, admin stuff on whatever social media time. Yes, I do. That's all me. But, but so to have a full band is musically is really exciting again, logistically is difficult. It's kind of like, oh, yeah, and people's scheduling and issues and all this. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, so it's great that we're working on that working in a new venue to so getting adjusted to, what did they want? What does the audience want? What do we think is going to work? We've just been asked to perhaps put together a gypsy jazz trio, which would be new for us, we do a little bit of gypsy jazz, but not like full on things. So trying to see if that's something that we can that we can manage. And aside from that, yeah, just mostly have work either as a duo or as a trio. We do have a few different keyboard players that we that we work with. And yeah, most of most of our gigs are restaurant or kind of restaurant lounge, this new full band one is the first one that we seen a long time where people really there's sort of like a dance floor space for them, you know. So that too, has meant Okay, well, we kind of need to rework and bring back in some of that repertoire that we haven't really bothered with for last few years because they weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah, and it'll just lead up by Christmas. Usually our week of Christmas is absolutely nuts been rammed, which is I just find crazy challenging. It's with two kids. So also trying to find time to steal like, create the magic of Christmas and, and it's Theo's birthday, he's a Christmas baby. So he's also kind of like finding a way to make him also birthday, maybe birthday party and, and playing, you know, Christmas Eve, usually we'll do two gigs. And Christmas day, we'll do two gigs. And every night of the week and everything. So it is, it's a tough, it's a tough time of year for me. I mean, you want to talk mom gills is kind of astronomical and have our nanny, you know, reading the Christmas story, and I really struggled with that this last year, you know, that we, we move Christmas as we need to, you know, like we celebrated on the day that we don't have to get up and go to a gig. So we did it on the 26th this year, but that still meant that on Christmas night, like she's putting out cookies for Santa and getting them in their pajamas. And I was just kind of all over the place that night. Like it was to the point where Felix even said to me, he said, you know, do we cancel that gig like you're this upset, you know, in the weeks leading up to it that you're not that you're not going to be able to be there and you know, it's a tough call right like these well paid holiday gigs you know, they're not at our usual rate. They're better than the usual rate and, and having to and maybe it'll be different every year. You know, maybe I won't make the same choice this year as to am I okay with her just sending photos of look, they're in their Christmas jammies. I'm sort of toggling between sets and then going okay, here we go, you know, celebrating Christmas with other people who are there with their families also too, which is just like that. You know, really hard on my heart and, and I, you know, I think maybe in later years it if we're still kicking around and doing this, it will be the kind of thing where maybe they can come and be with us, you know, on the on those occasions just be at those games. But right now there's just so little that, you know, and their bedtime is still early and all of that. So it's, it's, I know that it's better for them to be at home where they're well taken care of and she's doing as much of the tradition is as I have, like, left instructions were hard to do. But, but it's hard like Felix and I both are moms or elementary school teachers. So they had summers off, they had two weeks off at Christmas. So we both kind of have these very strong like holiday traditions of the families always did this and that and Christmas Eve was this kind of celebrating and then Christmas Day was that kind of celebrating. And for us we're just absent, you know, on those times. So find hope Yeah, find the holidays hard. But you know, in the other sense like we're still financially recovering from COVID so it's work work work, work, work work, work much as we can Yeah, you just sort of do what you can at the time that you make the decisions as you go and like you said next year you might feel different and then a year after you might feel different so it's like Yeah, going with what you need at the time. Yeah. And trying not to feel guilty I really love talking to you today. It's it's such a routine energy and I like have you got videos on YouTube where we can watch you perform, I want to watch you perform like your vibe is so welcoming and energizing is like awesome to have a say on stage. You know what I mean? What if you do want to see the videos with feel of which honestly, I swear there's like at full length shows there but they're on our Facebook page. So you can feel free to like scroll through the years. Seriously, just check the last five minutes because that's the start. You can skip ahead. It's fine. We're used to everyone else like tuning out and then coming back five minutes to the hour. I'm University thanks for your company today. If you've enjoyed this episode, I'd love you to consider leaving us a review following or subscribing to the podcast or even sharing it with a friend who you think might be interested. If you or someone you know would like to be a guest on the podcast please get in touch with us via the link in the show notes. I'll catch you again next week for another chat with an artistic mum now tomorrow we live saw so simple if you lead with me love you used to be the one always man trying struggling still good seem so sad with you maybe. Monroe I love to also sample if you lead with me love me for me design but love you You know that I find it oh so hard to let go change when you say in your sweet baby start let's let them roll while we while we live in today in some some so simple if you learn to be with me they're gonna love you ever decide that you're gonna love you